There are 4 messages totalling 101 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gum chewing

 2. hypercorrection

 3. Pig Latin

 4. Private languages



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Apr 1994 01:44:27 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gum chewing



I remember Johnson's remark because it reminded me of the task that the five

siblings on our family had fun with in the early 1940s. Johnson's remark

wouldn't've reminded me of that scene on the Knox farm west of town if

he had said anything other than "walk backward and chew gum." My recollection

is that Johnson was not just insulting Ford but commenting on potential

dangers in the election. It's popular, and politically positive, of course

to remember only the coarseness of Johnson's speech. Who knows what's

correct? Political correctness isn't exactly new. For a long, long time it

has been politically incorrect to say nice things about Lyndon Baines

Johnson. He's not a hero of mine, but he did get the Civil Rights Act

passed, among other things.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Apr 1994 08:01:08 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: hypercorrection



My favorite is a sign advertising



     The Cats Pajama's



bed & breakfast in Earlville, New York.



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Apr 1994 21:46:40 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Pig Latin



Dear Allan Metcalf,



Like Martha Howard, I am a native speaker of Pig Latin. So ask away.



I am interested in the influence of Pig Latin on SAE. The only

example at my disposal is "Ixnay" = SAE "Nix" = "Shut up about a

certain topic". E.g., "Ixnay on the Irlfriendgay" as I once said,

to try to quelch a discussion about a former girlfriend in the

presence of a current fiance. (Ou sont les neiges d'antan?)



                      ---Wab.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Apr 1994 09:23:20 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Private languages



   Allan:

    I'm no expert but I can give some bibliographical information about

   Boontling. Try California Folklore Quarterly [now Western Folklore]

   vol. 1, no. 1 (January 1942), pp. 96-97. Charles C. Adams, Boontling:

   An American Lingo: with a Dictionary of Boontling, University of Texas

   Press, Austin, 1972. Lynwood Carranco and Wilma Rawles Simmons, "The

   Boonville Language of Northern California," American Speech, 34:4

   (December 1964), pp. 278-286. E. N. Anderson, Jr., "The Social

   Context of a Local Lingo," Western Folklore, 29:3 (July 1970), pp.

   153-165. Charles C. Adams also wrote a thesis entitled "Boontling:

   Limited Language of Boonville, California and Its Environs." I think

   it was at the University of Washington in 1967 and I believe it is

   available from University Microfilms.

    I have only seen reference to the following item but it sounds

   interesting: Martha Strum, "A Case of Secret Language: the Benzorian

   Language," Smith College Studies in Modern Languages, vol. 21, (1939)

   pp. 209-220.

    Hope this is helpful.



    Randy Roberts

    robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Private languages

Author: aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  3/31/94 4:57 PM





Is anyone expert on private languages - e.g. Pig Latin, twin language,

Boontling, Cockney slang? Or are there any good studies of private languages,

especially the first two sorts?



Offhand I can't think of any, aside from routine mention in textbooks.



A reporter from New Jersey has inquired about this.

It revealed a gap in my knowledge. I said I'd ask around. (I see reporters

as opportunity, not nuisance. But that's another story.)



Thanks very much. Allan Metcalf AALLAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Mar 1994 to 1 Apr 1994

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There is one message totalling 28 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Inquiry for examples of linguistic discrimination



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Apr 1994 11:04:11 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Inquiry for examples of linguistic discrimination



I'm forwarding an inquiry re examples of linguistic discrimination by

a student here at the University of Arizona, which she intended to

distribute to ADS-L, but directed to me. I guess she must be on the

list, but in replying you might CC: or also address directly to her just

in case.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)





Date: Thu, 31 Mar 1994 19:44:03 -0700 (MST)

From: TRAPPOLD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU

Subject: RE: Linguistic discrimination



 Hi. I'm an undergrad at the UofA who is interested in linguistic

discrimination. My mother, who grew up in New Orleans, was urged to take

a "speech correction" class at LSU so that she'd be better received in the

rest of the country. Do you know if counselors still suggest these things,

and do these classes still exist? Thanks for any input.



Tressa Rappold

University of Arizona (not Alabama... I realize saying "UofA" above was not

 the best idea!)



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End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Apr 1994 to 2 Apr 1994

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There is one message totalling 15 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. new dictionary



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Apr 1994 10:32:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: new dictionary



Move over Cokie Roberts. More Southern speech-bashing; this time from the

Lansing (MI) State Journal (3/3/94), commenting on the retirement of Charles

Kuralt.

'For 37 years, Charles Kuralt has shown us what network news can be - calm,

thoughtful, perceptive. Beneath that deceptive North Carolina drawl, there's a

crisp intelligence.'

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet



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End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Apr 1994 to 3 Apr 1994

**********************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 57 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gum chewing (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Apr 1994 10:04:49 EDT

From:  Mark Ingram  MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gum chewing



On Fri, 1 Apr 1994 01:44:27 CST Donald M. Lance said:

 I remember Johnson's remark because it reminded me of the task that the five

 siblings on our family had fun with in the early 1940s. Johnson's remark

 wouldn't've reminded me of that scene on the Knox farm west of town if

 he had said anything other than "walk backward and chew gum." My recollection

 is that Johnson was not just insulting Ford but commenting on potential

 dangers in the election. It's popular, and politically positive, of course

 to remember only the coarseness of Johnson's speech. Who knows what's

 correct? Political correctness isn't exactly new. For a long, long time it

 has been politically incorrect to say nice things about Lyndon Baines

 Johnson. He's not a hero of mine, but he did get the Civil Rights Act



Thanks Donald,



Although I am disappointed not to hear confirmed the hilarious insult as it

was passed on to me, I suspect there are more memorable quotes from LBJ that

can be verified. LBJ suffered in comparison to the Ivy Leaguers in some peoples

eyes, but his accomplishments were of major proportions; his failures also.

He will be remembered for a long time. Even though it may be politically

incorrect in some circles to speak favorably of him, I kinda want to slip

in a kind word. He came from nothing to become the most important political

figure in the world. Yahoo Lyndon! Sorry. :-)



 Mark Ingram

 Lexington, Ky



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Apr 1994 13:45:58 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gum chewing



Thanks, Mark, for your response on LBJ. A year or so ago there was a

special program on LBJ with all his cronies talking about Johnson's

politics, his arm-twisting, his language, his successes, his failures.

Some of the coarse language got through unbleeped -- i.e., his friends

quoting him. One such comment had to do with "political bedfellows" and

farting under the sheets. I s'pose someone could do a fair project on

LBJ's language by listening to the tapes in the LBJ Library in Austin.

I caught only a portion of the LBJ special. It was interesting that

those who were on the spot in earlier events told stories that don't wuite

match what we now "know."



This interchange touched off by reactions to a reference to SWINE have

demonstrated something we try to teach in dialects classes -- that EVERYONE

has personal responses to others' speech, even scholarly dialectologists.

I might make some snide remark about squealing like stuck pigs, but I

won't. If you haven't participated in the old hog-killin' activities,

you can't fully appreciate that expression.

                      DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Apr 1994 to 4 Apr 1994

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There are 2 messages totalling 77 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. You may find this of interest

 2. french again



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Apr 1994 21:00:22 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: You may find this of interest



From the Chaucernet: In case you've missed the good old card catalog:

Status: R





To:   IN%"CHAUCER%UICVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVM1.ccit.arizona.edu"

Date: Mon, 04 Apr 1994 09:40:18 -0500 (CDT)

From: "Paul E. Szarmach"  pszarmac[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]math.ias.edu 







    [double-posted: ANSAX-L and CHAUCERNET]



    If you like books, and especially if you like card catalogs, make

the effort to get a hold of the April 4 issue of The New Yorker and

Nicholson Baker's article "Discards," which begins on p. 64 and saunters

through many fine pages to p. 86. It is astonishing to read how the

technological revolution has dislocated the enterprise. We all know that

the machine is dumb, and so cannot distinguish between the Blessed Virgin

Mary and one alleged songbird Ms. Ciccone, who both appear on-line as

"Madonna." Baker gives example of such confusions: OCLC has had to purge some

600,000 records, and is still cleaning, to fix such messes up. Baker does not kn

ow of one of my faves: the daring and resourceful OEN bibliographer, one

C.T. Berkhout of Tucson [and El Alamein], appears in Bingo's ELIXIR under

two headings, one indicating that he was born in 1914 and another in 1944.

How delicious: the future might argue that in fact there were two Berkhouts, per

e et fils, who produced all that fine scholarship--and here I, all these

fifteen years and more, have been living in a delusion!



    Even more remarkable is Baker's account of how OCLC was put together.

Libraries, if they chose to participate in sending in online entries, would

get "credits" towards the acquisition of entries produced by other libraries.

And so Wright State (and others too) flooded OCLC with quick and shoddy

records so as to accumulate goodies. The sytem is still trying to recover

from a lack of quality control.



    In the whole process such notions as a "subject" entry become unusable

and unwieldy, but more depressing is the discovery that on the average libraries

are spending some 30% of their budgets for technology. It aint't them foreign

journal publishers alone who done us wrong. There are librarians who do not

like books! "To serve you better" has now become a threat!



    Read 'em and weep.

                        Paulus



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Apr 1994 10:36:29 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: french again



a. Note, if you will, the op-ed piece in yesterday's NY Times by

the Minister of Culture defending French linguistic control as

perfectly logical.



b. My e-mail inquiry to the Ministry brought a response, snail mail,

from the Premier Ministre de la Delegation Generale a la Langue

Francaise, with an announcement of the publication of the _dictionnaire

des termes officiels de la langue francaise_, availble for 180F from

the Direction des Journaux Officiels, 26, rue Desaix, 75727 Paris

CEDEX 15. I shall request its purchase by my library.



Denis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Apr 1994 to 5 Apr 1994

**********************************************







There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Language on America Online



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Apr 1994 22:21:57 EDT

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Language on America Online



F.Y.I. from my America Online window:



"Atlantic Monthly editor Barbara Wallraff (MsGrammar) & MIT Prof. Steve

Pinker discuss language & correctness, Thurs., Apr. 7, 8 pm ET. Keyword:

ATLANTIC"



I may listen in for a while. - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Apr 1994 to 6 Apr 1994

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There are 2 messages totalling 50 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. SECOL Question

 2. Language on America Online



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Apr 1994 06:48:47 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: SECOL Question



Sorry to clutter the list with a question of this kind, but it struck

me as the best way to get an answer fast. I'm leaving for Memphis this

morning and suddenly don't know where it is I'm going when I get there.

I've been assuming all along that the hotel is downtown -- I thought I

knew almost exactly where it was. But suddenly I read this in the SECOL

Newsletter: "Accommodations are available at the Holiday Crowne Plaza,

located within walking distance of Memphis State." Unless my memory of

Memphis is very much distorted, something that is within walking distance

of Memphis State is *not* downtown. Can any of you give me a clue about

where I should go when I get to Memphis around noon today? Thanks.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Apr 1994 20:37:05 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language on America Online



 

  F.Y.I. from my America Online window:

 

  "Atlantic Monthly editor Barbara Wallraff (MsGrammar) & MIT Prof. Steve

  Pinker discuss language & correctness, Thurs., Apr. 7, 8 pm ET. Keyword:

  ATLANTIC"

 

  I may listen in for a while. - Allan Metcalf

 

Pinsker had an op-ed piece in the NYTimes the other day on pc

language. Maybe, Allan, you should ask him to come to our session

in Orlando. Canyou summarize or crosspost the AOL discussion?



Dennis



--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Apr 1994 to 7 Apr 1994

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There is one message totalling 17 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. french again



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Apr 1994 18:45:58 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: french again



On Tue, 5 Apr 1994, Dennis Baron wrote:



  a. Note, if you will, the op-ed piece in yesterday's NY Times by

  the Minister of Culture defending French linguistic control as

  perfectly logical.

 

Perfectly logical to protect such pure French terms as "biftek" from being

overwhelmed by English. Of course.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Apr 1994 to 10 Apr 1994

***********************************************







There is one message totalling 40 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Janus Syndrome



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Apr 1994 19:40:40 -0400

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Janus Syndrome



T'Other Side of the Coin Department:



Having followed with interest the recent discussion of

personal stigmatization by dialect association

(l'affaire Cokie), I now find the April 1 issue

of the TLS testifying to a curious sort of mirror-image

attitude. In it we have Adam Mars-Jones's review of

James Kelman's "How Late It Was, How Late," a work

apparently narrated in (or at least heavily laden with)

Glaswegian speech forms. M-J in no way condemns

the dialect and remarks on the authenticity

of the language. The unexpected (to me) twist lies

in the following:



  "Too much of the book is only kept by the prestige

  of dialect from sounding like banality . . . ."

  [author's word order; where ARE the TLS's editors?]



I take this as a claim that readers tend uncritically

to accept as "worthy," "insightful," or what have you,

an idea or observation earnestly presented in print

in non-standard dialect. Does this mean that if one's

language is "racy with the soil" (to steal

Padraig Colum's phrase), one will be damned or praised

depending on whether the words are spoken or written?

A curious brace of linguistic prejudices (if it indeed

exists).



--

      Mike Agnes

       Internet: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu

        Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm

          Fax: 216 579 1255



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Apr 1994 to 11 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 179 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ode to Janus

 2. ink pen (8)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 08:12:50 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Ode to Janus



I've been thinking in other contexts about a "rhetoric of

sincerity," which, it seems to me, has several varieties.

Dialect, as a savior from banality, seems to be of the

"authentic voice" variety: if it sounds like something

someone might say, then it's "authentic." Trained academics

tend to find this kind of authenticity marker suspect and seem to

prefer irony (especially about the self) as a marker of

sincerity or authenticity. I think this goes along with a

belief that, at some point, you have to

be objective about the self in order

to know what it is one has to be sincere about. My students

tend to believe the opposite, even after study of rhetoric: that

revising first impulse talk makes it insincere or inauthentic.

Because dialect sounds/looks like first impulse speech, it also

sounds/looks authentic or sincere--so you have to respect it because

it's somebody's "real" opinion. Obviously, then, sincerity etc.

is an irrelevant value for scholarly (aka revised) writing/speech, and

respect as someone's opinion is equally irrelevant.



In the discourse of the girl-produced zines which I've been

looking at, dialect representation isn't a marker, but other

elements of speech are, e.g. "anyway," "well," "you guys," and a kind

of self-effacement that reaches, on occasion, a sophisticated

irony of self.



The perceived sincerity of dialect and other oral markers in text

 is reminiscent of--and probably comes from the same source as--

country talk as honest when set against city talk as slick, as in movies like

what-his-name goes to Washington. Of course, the dialect represented

is percieved as honest and sincere only if its speakers in general

are perceived to be. So country talk can be honest or dumb, depending

on if the speaker is simple country or redneck. A black dialect

representation also can go both ways--authentic or slovenly or

or gangster. It all depends.



Rescuing from banality is interesting in this regard. Is it that

sincerity dresses up banality and makes it less banal--or at least

makes it necessary to respect that banality as real? Could M-J be a

covert dialectologist with an appreciation for dialect well-rendered?

What dialect, pray tell, was being represented in the novel?

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:50:36 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: ink pen



A query related to the earlier extended discussion of Southern neutralization

of non-low front vowels before /n/: Is it the impression of those of you from

the relevant dialect area that the use of 'ink pen' for 'pen' is (a) a natural

or standard designation, and (b) one that is motivated (consciously or

unconsciously, synchronically or diachronically) by the avoidance of homonymy?

 That is, does the dialect area in which 'ink pen' is a standard locution

coincide more or less with that in which 'pen' and 'pin' merge? (I'm

referring to the spontaneous use of this collocation in discourse, not its

appearance as a repair phenomenon a la 'two-L llamas'.)

                  Thanks.

                    --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 13:25:00 MST

From:  Garland Bills  GBILLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNMB.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Responding to Larry Horn's query, my dialect (North Texas, NOT a Valley boy)

merges /I/ and /E/ before nasals (not just /n/ -- and these lax vowels do

not occur before the velar nasal, by the way), and I have never used 'ink

pen'. If disambiguation is needed I would likely say 'writing p_n'

(stereotypically contrasted with a 'sticking p_n') or some circumlocution

such as 'what you write with'. So for me, only repair; no 'ink pin'.

Garland Bills

University of New Mexico

gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bootes.unm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 14:37:31 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Larry--

    So far as I know, it is a perfectly unselfconscious normal term: that's

just the name of the thing, as opposed, at times, to a stick-pin.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 17:08:37 CDT

From:  Barbara Need  barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



My roommate just told me of a sign he saw in the Laundramat (sp?)

which said something to the effect that



Please check your pockets. Heat melts ink pens.



This was in Chicago (Hyde Park)!



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 18:01:15 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



  of non-low front vowels before /n/: Is it the impression of those of you from

  the relevant dialect area that the use of 'ink pen' for 'pen' is (a) a natural

  or standard designation, and (b) one that is motivated (consciously or

  unconsciously, synchronically or diachronically) by the avoidance of homonymy?



(a) Although I've heard "ink pen" many times in my life, I'm not sure I

would call it "a natural or standard designation." I've never said it, nor

do I remember ever hearing it from anybody in my family or from close friends.



(b) This possibility has occurred to me before. Obviously it's not

something that all [pIn]/[pIn] speakers do, since I don't say "ink pen"

and also don't distinguish between "pen" and "pin," but I do think there

may be a connection.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 20:51:23 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



I don't make the pen/pin distinction, but I don't say "ink pen".

Discussions of "ink pen" and "sticking pin" have suggested that teachers

have prompted students to say "ink pen" even though no kid would ordinarily

ask for a "sticking pin" in class. I don't recall any of my teachers

engaging in dialect harrassment by insisting that we say "ink pen" to make

sure we weren't asking for sticking pins.



It's also possible -- more likely -- that manufacturers sold ink pens with

the two words written on the box. The term I grew up using was "fountain

pen." A little foray into comercial language might yield useful info.

                           DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 22:42:23 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



AHA! Thanks, Rudy, just what I was hoping for, in the great tradition of

Gillieron, Bolinger et al. on homonymy avoidance.



              Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 21:01:11 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Thirty years ago, I knew a young man from Idaho, who habitually used "ink

pen" for what, to me (having grown up in Alberta), was just a "pen." I

razzed him constantly, and he insisted that the term was necessary to

distinguish between the various types of writing instruments.



In his dialect, the pronunciations of "pin" and "pen" were certainly

distinct; he did not use "ink pen" to distinguish it from a "pin."



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Apr 1994 to 12 Apr 1994

************************************************





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Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Status: R



There are 16 messages totalling 292 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ink pen (12)

 2. The Great Unwashed (2)

 3. Unscientific Survey re "ink pen"

 4. Ink Pen



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 00:06:14 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



OK, I guess I'll fold my tents (or my tense, at the case may be) and slink

away. It seemed like a nice idea when someone posted the theory on

alt.usage.english, but at the same time too good to be true, and evidently it

was. "Ink pen", to the extent that it occurs at all, is not (or at least not

systematically) a neutralization-driven homonymy-avoidance device. Sigh.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 23:00:57 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Like me, Don Lance is a Valley Boy. To clarify my earlier note, I have never

used "ink pen" either, like Don using "fountain pen". However, I remember

very vividly making up my own private mnemonic in first grade (in those ancient

days, most kids did not learn to read at the age of 2), that  pen  was what

you write with, and  pin  was what you could stick someone with. So when I

first encountered "ink pen" in East Texas, it seemed a perfectly natural

label which neatly disambiguated the two. The times I have heard it from

Southerners and South Midlanders (if such exist), it has been a seemingly

normal label, not a stressed disambiguator. The first time my New Jersey-

origin colleague here heard it, he interpreted it as an attempt to distinguish

a fountain pen from a ball-point pen.

        --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Apr 1994 23:40:08 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Larry,

    No need to dispair totally. Synchrony can be separated from

Diachrony. A few Missouri folk did wander up to the Dakotas, and though

their offspring may have become phonologically acculturated, lexemes

could have been maintained in spite of the loss of the original matrix

from which they sprang. I suspect that "ink pen" is still most common

in the South and among Blacks who have moved to the North, which would

still support the theory of homonymy avoidance.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 04:01:24 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: ink pen



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



It's writin' pin as opposed to a stick pin here in southern Ohio.

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 05:32:11 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



      No need to dispair totally. Synchrony can be separated from

  Diachrony. A few Missouri folk did wander up to the Dakotas, and though



Speaking of diachrony, I started to mention yesterday that "ink pen" seems

to be fading away. I remember hearing it fairly often as a child -- mainly

from other children in school. I don't think I hear it much anymore.



And I still think there may be a connection between "ink pen" and the

pin/pen homophony. I've thought that for many years. The kinds of

[pInz] are "safety pins," "straight pins," and "ink pens." It's just

that some of us let context make clear which kind of [pIn] we're talking

about.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:27:35 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: The Great Unwashed



(Apologies to subscribers of both lists!) I'm looking for the origin of the

term "the Great Unwashed." I read it someplace recently and promptly forgot

it. I thought it might have been in John Carey's *The Intellectuals and the Masses*, but when I went back to that source, I couldn't find it. Can anybody

help me?



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 09:35:16 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



I use 'ink pen' and also merge /I/ and /E/. 'Ink pen' is not my most

common term for that referent, 'pen' is. When it's not clear from the

context, as when someone asks "What kind of /pIn/?", I would use it

without hesitation, quite naturally. I seem to hear it rather frequently

here in Athens, GA, but will keep an ear out for awhile.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 11:57:58 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: ink pen



  My roommate just told me of a sign he saw in the Laundramat (sp?)

  which said something to the effect that

 

  Please check your pockets. Heat melts ink pens.

 

  This was in Chicago (Hyde Park)!

 

Is the proprietor a VBE speaker? I haven't hung out in Hyde park for

decades, but my memory suggests that might be possible.



Tim F



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 10:10:14 -0700

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



At 09:01 PM 4/12/94 -700, Keith Russell wrote:

 ... and he insisted that the term was necessary to

 distinguish between the various types of writing instruments.



I am afraid I pronounce _pen_ and _pin_ exactly the same.



I had never used "ink pen" until fairly recently but have found it to be a

useful term. I am a fountain pen collector and have found that if I just

ask "Do you have any pens?" I get lots of "Oh, yes" responses when the

person really has some cheap ball point pens for sale. Changing it to

"fountain pens" doesn't help much at many flea markets, for some people

think a ball point pen is a fountain pen. If I use "ink pen," that seems

to get the message across. Sometimes the response then is "Oh, you mean

those that you have to fill with ink." Then I know I am on the right track.



GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 12:38:30 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Unscientific Survey re "ink pen"



On a whim this morning I asked students in three different classes

whether they used the term "ink pen" and found that approximately 50%

of them did. The majority of the students in the classes are native

Mississippians and are of typical college age. In one of the classes

an older student (probably late 30s or early 40s) said that she used

to say "ink pen" but doesn't anymore. Another student in that class

said that she doesn't use it but has heard it from "older people."

In a different class a much older student (probably late 60s, maybe

early 70s) said that she's never used it but remembers it from parents

and grandparents. One other interesting unsolicited comment was in the

third class. When I first asked the question (whether they use the

term), one girl said, "It depends." When I asked her what she meant

by that, she said, "If it's clear what kind of pen I'm talking about,

I just say 'pen'; if it might not be clear, I say 'ink pen' to make

it clear that I'm not talking about a 'sticking pin.'"

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 14:03:43 EDT

From:  Bruce Southard  ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



As one who also doesn't make the pen/pin distinction, I would like to

second Donald Lance's suggestion about looking to commercial language

use for the "ink pen" distinction. I believe that "fountain pen" was in

use prior to the coming of the "ballpoint pen," but even so, "ink pen"

may have arisen to distinguish between the two types of pens. I also

vaguely remember being exposed to the term "ball pen" in the Philippines

during the late '60's--that term struck me as a useful alternative to

what I had come to know as the "ballpoint." Do others use "ball pen" and

"ink pen" to distinguish between the "ballpoint pen" and the "fountain

pen"? And what do you call all of these new gadgets which have ink but

do not have the traditional "ballpoint"?



BRUCE SOUTHARD

ENGLISH DEPARTMENT

EAST CAROLINA UNIVERSITY

ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1

ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU

919-757-6041

919-757-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 14:24:16 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



In response to Gerald Walton, let me clarify something. 'Ink pen' in my

dialect does NOT equal 'fountain pen'. Typically it means a ball point

pen, though it could refer to any type of pen (writing, that is, let's

not get into the hog pen/pig parlor question with this one!)



Ellen Johnson



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 15:42:05 -0600

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: The Great Unwashed



Mathews, DICT. OF AMERICANISMS, cites the following from Brewerton, WAR IN

KANSAS (1856), p.136:



"He [the governor of the Kansas territory] was sitting upon a white horse a la

General Taylor--or as the 'great unwashed' delight to call him, "Old Rough and

Ready."



From the CONGRESSIONAL RECORD 23 June 1901, 1345/2:

Status: R



"The Democratic party...have been long known as the 'great unwashed'."



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:02:56 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Ink Pen



Re "ink pen": I have no evidence about motivation (what a good research

question!), but my experience (in East Texas, Arkansas (all parts), Tennessee)

is that "ink pen" is used by a subset of speakers for whom "pen" and "pin" are

homophonous. I do not think I ever heard the term

homophonous. I do not think I ever heard the term "ink pen" before I moved to

Knoxville. The first time I recall hearing it here was memorable. I was in the

Computing Center, seeking the assistance of a student clerk on duty. I thought

it extremely ironic that she used the term "ink pen" in her reply to me

in the most technologically advanced building on the campus. I hear the

term frequently--it is in constant use on this campus.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 17:40:54 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



I checked with those who listen most to my speech and heard something

interesting. I sometimes ask for a pen, sometimes for a ball-point. But

to no one's recollection do I ask for a ball-point pen.

  I recall using ball-point as an adolescent (from [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] seventh grade), but

am pretty sure I never used "fountain" for fountain pen. After about the

sixth grade, we weren't allowed to have fountain pens (1947 or 48). WWII

had pretty much made the ball-point ubiquitous. This was in Montana.

Cheers,

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 20:38:06 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Both "fountain pen" and "ink pen" may be useful as phonological disambiguators,

and it's possible that commercial terms [as opposed to "quill pen"] played a

role in establishing the terms that then could be clipped. It's not

necessarily the case that "ink" and "fountain" were added to "pen" -- but

the two-word forms are useful.

When I was presenting a workshop to English teachers in Conroe TX (about 1966),

one of the 25 or so teachers was from the Upper Midwest and the others from

that part of Texas. The E-speaker inititated a digression in my discussion

of phonetics by complaining about the kids -- and teachers -- not distinguish-

ing 'pen' and 'pin'. I wrote the two words on the board and asked the

E-speaker to say one of the words. She distinctly said [pEn] and when I asked

for a show of hands the class was evenly divided on which vowel was spoken.

The E-speaker was visibly surprised and a little shocked to discover that

her colleagues really couldn't hear a distinction that was so clear.

Now I wish I'd had the foresight to ask that group of teachers about "ink

pen".

   DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Apr 1994 to 13 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 246 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ink pen (5)

 2. "basement" (6)

 3. Basement: Not in Fort Worth

 4. I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Apr 1994 21:54:20 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ink pen



Tom--

    Did you ever hear "atomic pen"? On the border in South Texas right

after the war, advertising seemed to link ball-point pens with the ultramodern

technological surge typified by the atomic bomb. In Mexico, they are still

called "plumas atomicas", but I don't know whether the Valley usage was a

leak-over from Mexico, though I doubt it.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 07:10:49 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: "basement"



This discussion of "ink pen," a term I tend to associate with my elementary

school days long ago (early '50s), has reminded me of the use of "basement"

for a school restroom. Was that term used all over the U.S., or was it

Southern? Presumably it got started from having restrooms in basements,

but the term was used in my generation when restrooms were not in basements.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 08:13:10 EST

From:  "Beverly S. Hartford"  HARTFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: "basement"



No, it wasn't just Southern. We used it in Northern New England (Maine)

I don't know it's origins, though. I don't recall any buildings,

private or public where the restrooms were actually in the basements,

although I certainly recall quite a few that were outdoors (outhouses).

This is about 50 years ago...Bev Hartford (Indiana University)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:48:43 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: "basement"



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



Natalie,

    I can't help you out on this one. My Ohio-born wife calls it the

basement [the room(s) underground] but it's "down cellar" to me, even though no

one here seems to recognize that term. Never heard either one used to refer to

the rest room, which was the euphemism when I was in primary school in the

40's.                      DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:03:24 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "basement"



Beverly S.Hartford said:



 No, it wasn't just Southern. We used it in Northern New England (Maine)

 I don't know it's origins, though. I don't recall any buildings,

 private or public where the restrooms were actually in the basements,

 although I certainly recall quite a few that were outdoors (outhouses).

 This is about 50 years ago...Bev Hartford (Indiana University)



The men's room in our department is in the basement--and, boy, does it

stink. I ought to know. My office was next door to it for several years.

But we don't call the men's room the basement. No bathroom should be in a

basement. Smells and effluent run downhill. Payday's on the 30th.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 09:28:35 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: "basement"



On Thu, 14 Apr 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  This discussion of "ink pen," a term I tend to associate with my elementary

  school days long ago (early '50s), has reminded me of the use of "basement"

  for a school restroom. Was that term used all over the U.S., or was it

  Southern? Presumably it got started from having restrooms in basements,

  but the term was used in my generation when restrooms were not in basements.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I went to school about the same time you did, in Southern Alberta, and

this is the first time I have ever heard of this use of "basement."



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:59:21 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: "basement"



Like Keith, I went to school about the same time Natalie did -- actually,

a few years earlier (1st grade 1946). This is the first time I have ever

heard of "basement" for bathroom (my perspective is northern Illinois).



Until Jr. High school, it was always "bathroom" ; my parents used "biffy"

(which is a no. regionalism, according to DARE) but I never picked it up.

In early adolescenece, some of my male peers got daring and used "john"

and "can."



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 12:49:29 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



When I ask for a writing instrument it's usually a pen, unless I'm asking

a dean, in which case I ask for a laser printer.



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 20:30:38 -0700

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



At 02:24 PM 4/13/94 -0400, Ellen Johnson wrote:

 In response to Gerald Walton, let me clarify something. 'Ink pen' in my

 dialect does NOT equal 'fountain pen'



Thanks. It clearly does to some people, but obviously not to all. GWW/.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 20:50:55 -0700

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



At 08:38 PM 4/13/94 CDT, Donald M. Lance wrote:

 ...  She distinctly said [pEn] and when I asked for a show of hands the

class was  evenly divided on which vowel was spoken.

 The E-speaker was visibly surprised and a little shocked to discover that

 her colleagues really couldn't hear a distinction that was so clear.



I have had similar experiences.



And I think I might have mentioned on this list once before the case of

Southern student at U. of Minnesota. Following a class discussion of pen/pin

pronunciations, she agreed to go to a department store and and ask the

salesperson where one might find pens/pins. The clerk listened carefully and

 then responded, "The pans are in the basement." GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 20:52:52 -0700

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



At 02:03 PM 4/13/94 EDT, Bruce Southard wrote:

  And what do you call all of these new gadgets which have ink but

 do not have the traditional "ballpoint"?



If I understand correctly what you are describing, the name used by the

manufacturers and salespersons is _rollerball_. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 20:23:01 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Basement: Not in Fort Worth



The following came from one of my colleagues in response to my forwarded

query re the use of "basement".

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



From:  UACCIT::RHETREV   14-APR-1994 10:50

To:   UACCIT::RTROIKE

CC:

Subj:  RE: Anybody know/use this term?



From Theresa: Even though the restrooms (?bathrooms) were in my elementary

Status: R



school's basement, the word "basement" was not used for restroom or

bathroom. I'm talking about Texas here, Fort Worth, to be exact.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 23:47:44 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 14-Apr-1994 11:47pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo





    The southern student at Minn who asked for a pen and got sent to pans

reminded me of a funny interaction here in Athens OH Easter 1968. My wife and I

had driven down from Syracuse NY to househunt, and we went to the OU Inn for

dinner. We had left winter and the outside temp was in the 60's, so I ordered 2

Planter's Punches in the dining room. They came promptly but minus straws. So

I got up and walked to the bar, and asked the bartender if I could have two

straws as the waitress had forgotten ours. He said he couldn't, but he'd remind

her. Puzzled, I returned to my seat, only to find her appear a few minutes

later with two STROHs [a Detroit beer]. Suddenly I realized how Dorothy felt

in The Wizard of Oz when she said, "Todo, I don't think we're in Kansas any more!"



                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

                                        s









Received: 14-Apr-1994 11:47pm



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Apr 1994 to 14 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 218 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ink pen (2)

 2. "basement"

 3. I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo (3)

 4. Call for Papers -- APLA



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Apr 1994 22:18:48 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



On Wed, 13 Apr 1994, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Tom--

      Did you ever hear "atomic pen"? On the border in South Texas right

  after the war, advertising seemed to link ball-point pens with the ultramodern

  technological surge typified by the atomic bomb. In Mexico, they are still

  called "plumas atomicas", but I don't know whether the Valley usage was a

  leak-over from Mexico, though I doubt it.

      --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 

Rudy, I'm keeping this gem intact for our resident "atomic" expert, a

woman in poli sci dept who has collected every imaginable song and

gimcrack from "The Atomic Cafe" forward. I gave her my matchbook from

the Mizpah (!) Hotel in Beatty, near the Test Site, which advertised the

local specialty, the Atomic Steak.

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 15:20:33 +0700

From:  Gwyn Williams  gwyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPIED.TU.AC.TH 

Subject: Re: ink pen



 Comparable to "neck tie"?



Gwyn Williams



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 07:33:01 EST

From:  "Beverly S. Hartford"  HARTFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: "basement"



Take Heart David Bergdahl...I also say "down cellar", but it doesn't

mean a restroom...it means that dank place under the house where we

kept potatoes, coal, pickles etc. This is in Southern Maine. Bev

Hartford Hartford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucs.indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 08:52:17 -0700

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo



At 11:47 PM 4/14/94 EDT, David Bergdahl wrote:

 ... asked the bartender if I could have two

 straws as the waitress had forgotten ours. He said he couldn't, but he'd

remind

 her. Puzzled, I returned to my seat, only to find her appear a few minutes

 later with two STROHs [a Detroit beer].



Reminds me of a blind person who spoke recently about a restaurant

experience she had. The manager gave her, and her friends, a very hard time

about her desire to have her seeing-eye dog enter the restaurant. He kept

asking why it was necessary for her to have the dog with her in the

restaurants, and she and her friends kept insisting that he could not deny

entrance to the dog. Finally he gave in. The dog was very well behaved, and

as the people started to leave the manager complimented everybody on the

behavior of the dog but once again asked why it was really necessary that

it be allowed in the restaurant. By this time the blind person had started

to leave, and the manager realized his big mistake. He said, "Oh, I am very

sorry. I thought you said 'senile dog.'"



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 10:58:08 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo



  to leave, and the manager realized his big mistake. He said, "Oh, I am very

  sorry. I thought you said 'senile dog.'"



This reminds me of my "dogs 'n wheelchairs" miscommunication. A couple of

years ago I was late for lunch because I had been in the Student Support

Services office seeing one of my advisees. When I got to the cafeteria

and a friend asked me where I had been, I told her and then started

describing the Support Services building since I'd found it an interesting

place. I said, "It was full of dogs and wheelchairs." Wide-eyed, she

responded, "Why were the dogs in wheelchairs??"

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 12:04:42 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: I guess weren't not in Kansas anymore, Todo



The straws / Strohs happened to me too, I think it was in Michigan.



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Apr 1994 17:15:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Call for Papers -- APLA



__________________________________________________________



PLEASE POST

                CALL FOR PAPERS





The Atlantic Provinces Linguistic Association (APLA) will hold its

18th Annual Meeting at the Saint John Campus of the University of

New Brunswick-Saint John, on



OCTOBER 28-29, 1994.



The theme of the conference is:

MICRO-PARAMETRIC SYNTAX

(DIALECT VARIATION IN SYNTAX)



The conference program has three sections:

1. a section on the conference theme

2. a section open to linguistic topics of each scholar's choice

3. a section for students' papers in linguistics



The key-note speakers: Richard S. KAYNE (CUNY)

            Monique LEMIEUX     (UQAM)



Contributions, in English or French, to any of the sections are

welcome. Abstracts, no longer than one (1) page, should be sent to

the Organizing Committee before August 15, 1994. Undergraduate and

graduate students are encouraged to participate. We will offer

limited financial assistance towards the cost of travel or

accommodation.



Conference participants must be members of ALPA/APLA. Non-members

who wish to participate may join by paying the membership fee

(CAN$15) as well as the conference registration fee (CAN$25) on

arrival at the conference, or by sending payment to the APLA/ALPA

Treasurer with the attached form.



Conference participants can have their papers published in the

conference proceedings if they provide a camera-ready copy on paper

or disc. In addition, papers on the conference theme may be

submitted to an editorial committee with a view to refereed

publication by John Benjamins in a separate volume.





The Organizing Committee      Address: Virginia Motapanyane

                  University of New Brunswick

Virginia Motapanyane        P.O.Box 5050

David Jory             Saint John, NB

Suzanne Pons-Ridler         Canada E2L 4L5

Louis Belanger           e-mail: MOTA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNBSJ.CA







MEMBERSHIP FORM: ATLANTIC PROVINCES LINGUISTIC ASSOCIATION/

ASSOCIATION DE LINGUISTIQUE DES PROVINCES ATLANTIQUES



The Atlantic Provinces Linguistic Association was founded in 1977

to promote the study of languages and linguistics in Eastern

Canada. The Association hosts an annual conference each fall at a

centre of higher education in the area and publishes the

papers presented. Topics cover many areas of linguistics. In

addition, the Association publishes a (refereed) journal annually.



We welcome inquiries converning the Association and its conference.

We hope you will join by completing the form below. Membership

entitles you to a copy of the proceedings from the annual meeting,

the newsletter, and the journal all for the annual subscription of

$15 per annum. We consider this to be one of the best bargains in

the scholarly world.



-----------------------------



Name........................................................



Address.....................................................





Annual dues    $15     $10 for students



Send to:  Dr. A. Steinbergs / e-mail: astein[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca

      Treasurer, APLA

      Department of Linguistics

      Memorial University of Newfoundland

      St.John's, Newfoundland

      Canada A1B 3X9



Inquiries concerning the 1994 conference may be addressed to:

      Dr. Virginia Motapanyane / e-mail: mota[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unbsj.ca

      APLA 18 Organizing Committee

      Department of Humanities and Languages

      University of New Brunswick

      Saint John, New Brunswick

      Canada E2L 4L5



Inquiries concerning the journal, Linguistica Atlantica, may be

addressed to:

      Dr. Jim Black / e-mail: jblack[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca

       Editor, Linguistica Atlantica

      Department of Linguistics

      Memorial University of Newfoundland

      St. John's, Newfoundland

      Canada A1B 3X9



Manuscripts may also be submitted to the editor at the above

address.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Apr 1994 to 15 Apr 1994

************************************************







There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Senile dogs



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Apr 1994 00:14:41 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Senile dogs



The following just came from one of my Alabaman colleagues to whom I had

forwarded the "senile dog" story. I thought it was too good not to

share:



From:  UACCIT::HOUSTON   15-APR-1994 23:54

To:   UACCIT::RTROIKE

CC:

Subj:  RE: Language processing



    Senile dog--I have one. Reminds me of the time my sister came home

from college and told my father she was dissecting a fetal pig in Biology.

My father couldn't figure out why in hell a feeble pig should be any better

than a strong one for the purpose.



    Or the time my cousin encountered an Air Force guy from up north on

the beach in Panama City, Fla., who asked him if he'd seen a "big ol' dog"

running loose. It took them a while to sort things out: my cousin kept

asking just what kind of big ol' dog, and was running out of patience as

the airman kept describe a small dog. When they finally got around to

spelling it, my cousin hadn't seen the guy's beagle dog after all.



    Both true stories, cross my heart.





--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Apr 1994 to 16 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 125 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ink pen, basement (2)

 2. Loss of /th/ vs assimilation of /ng/ in  lengths 



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Apr 1994 10:14:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: ink pen, basement



[Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU ]



# This discussion of "ink pen," a term I tend to associate with my

# elementary school days long ago (early '50s), has reminded me of

# the use of "basement" for a school restroom. Was that term used

# all over the U.S., or was it Southern? Presumably it got started

# from having restrooms in basements, but the term was used in my

# generation when restrooms were not in basements.

# --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



"Can I go to the basement?" was the normal request when I was in

school in the 50s, in western Massachusetts. In my elementary school

-- um, grammar school -- the bathrooms *were* in the basement. In

high school they weren't, but I'm sure we still used the same word.



[THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU ]



#  I recall using ball-point as an adolescent (from [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] seventh

# grade), but am pretty sure I never used "fountain" for fountain

# pen. After about the sixth grade, we weren't allowed to have

# fountain pens (1947 or 48). WWII had pretty much made the

# ball-point ubiquitous. This was in Montana.

# Cheers,

# tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



Interesting. In my high school, ten years later, we still weren't

allowed to use ballpoints at all. It was probably the doing of the

local clothing merchants, who got to replace all the shirts ruined by

leaking fountain pens.



Also on INK PEN: I have yet to hear that term here in South

Georgia, even though it is definitely "pin = pen" territory. I get

lots of misspellings like SENSE for SINCE, and my favorite, I'D GO TO

ANY LINKS TO ..."



In determining rules for in-class compositions, my students always

seem to ask whether they should write IN INK or IN PENCIL.



David Johns

Waycross College

Waycross, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Apr 1994 13:38:35 -0500

From:  Christina E Ogburn  ogburce[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen, basement



I have lived in Delaware and Alabama and I have never used the term "ink

pen," however, I have heard older (70's and up) people from Alabama use

it. Also, in both places we (the students) asked whether assignments

should be "in ink."



As for basement, I have always used it to mean the storage area under the

house. Although I use that term, I rarely use it because most houses in

Alabama do not have basements. When I lived in Delaware, most of the

houses did.



On Sun, 17 Apr 1994, David A. Johns wrote:



  [Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU ]

 

  # This discussion of "ink pen," a term I tend to associate with my

  # elementary school days long ago (early '50s), has reminded me of

  # the use of "basement" for a school restroom. Was that term used

  # all over the U.S., or was it Southern? Presumably it got started

  # from having restrooms in basements, but the term was used in my

  # generation when restrooms were not in basements.

  # --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 

  "Can I go to the basement?" was the normal request when I was in

  school in the 50s, in western Massachusetts. In my elementary school

  -- um, grammar school -- the bathrooms *were* in the basement. In

  high school they weren't, but I'm sure we still used the same word.

 

  [THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU ]

 

  #  I recall using ball-point as an adolescent (from [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] seventh

  # grade), but am pretty sure I never used "fountain" for fountain

  # pen. After about the sixth grade, we weren't allowed to have

  # fountain pens (1947 or 48). WWII had pretty much made the

  # ball-point ubiquitous. This was in Montana.

  # Cheers,

  # tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu

 

  Interesting. In my high school, ten years later, we still weren't

  allowed to use ballpoints at all. It was probably the doing of the

  local clothing merchants, who got to replace all the shirts ruined by

  leaking fountain pens.

 

  Also on INK PEN: I have yet to hear that term here in South

  Georgia, even though it is definitely "pin = pen" territory. I get

  lots of misspellings like SENSE for SINCE, and my favorite, I'D GO TO

  ANY LINKS TO ..."

 

  In determining rules for in-class compositions, my students always

  seem to ask whether they should write IN INK or IN PENCIL.

 

  David Johns

  Waycross College

  Waycross, GA

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Apr 1994 12:43:13 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Loss of /th/ vs assimilation of /ng/ in  lengths 



David Johns' great homonym of  lengths : links  in Georgia brings to attention

the opposite assimilation, namely the change of /ng/ to /n/ in  length , which

I first noticed hearing from James Alatis, who grew up in a Greek family in

Ohio. For a long time I thought it was idiosyncratic, but in recent years I

have been hearing it from a number of speakers, primarily northeastern, but

also from some African Americans (mostly Ph.D.s) not from that area. I wonder

if there is any Atlas survey data on this, or any other information. The same

change of velar to alveolar nasal also affects  strength .

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Apr 1994 to 17 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 65 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Loss of /th/ vs assimilation of /ng/ in  lengths 

 2. stalking horse

 3. /ng/ -  /n/ / __T



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Apr 1994 09:04:12 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Loss of /th/ vs assimilation of /ng/ in  lengths 



Neither 'length' nor 'strength' is an item in the LAMSAS worksheets. I

found them in LAGS' General Index, but not the Technical Index (which would

list its variants).



I've heard the /n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ pronunciation, though I'd say mostly from /E/

speakers as opposed to those with the /E/-/I/ merger before nasals.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Apr 1994 11:03:30 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: stalking horse



My chair used the phrase "stalking horse" today--which I'd never

heard before. It's in American Heritage, but seems like something

that would have regional variation. (Or am I just trying to

cover my ignorance?) Ideas?

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Apr 1994 18:57:28 -0400

From:  "Aaron E. Drews"  DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: /ng/ -  /n/ / __T



Recently, Rudy Troike wrote:

  David Johns' great homonym of  lengths : links  of /ng/ to /n/ in  length ,

  which I first noticed hearing from James Alatis, who grew

  up in a Greek family in Ohio. For a long time I thought it was

  idiosyncratic, but in recent years I have been hearing it from a

  number of speakers, primarily northeastern, but

  also from some African Americans (mostly Ph.D.s) not from that area.

  I wonder if there is any Atlas survey data on this, or any other information.

  The same change of velar to alveolar nasal also affects  strength .



    Having the pleasure of working in James Alatis' office, I

decided to see if this /ng/ -  /n/ was true. The conversation sort of

 went like this:



AD :Dean Alatis, how do you say /lengT/ ?

JA :/lenT/ ?

AD: Never mind... that's all I needed to know...



    He also told me that cot is equal to caught for him. One of

the few people I've met here that this is the case.   BTW, I thought

he got his undergrad degree in Ohio, but he grew up in West Virgina.

At least, that's what he tells us.

____________________________________________________________________

Aaron Drews               drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu 

Georgetown University          drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet 

School of Languages and Linguistics  "That is something up with

Class of 1996              which I will not put"



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Apr 1994 to 18 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 111 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Bounced Mail

 2. ink pen

 3. stalking horse

 4. Cajun query



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 06:30:24 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



Reminder: When including a previous list posting in something you're

sending to the list, be sure to edit out all references to ADS-L in the

headers. Otherwise, your message will bounce. It's a LISTSERV loop-

preventive measure.  Natalie



  From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f)  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  2827 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

 -------------------- Message in error (41 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Mon, 18 Apr 1994 23:43:35 -0400 (EDT)

  From: "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu 

  Subject: Re: "basement"

 

  "basement" was the word we used in elementary school in the late 1940s in

  New Orleans. The school actually had no basement, but the restrooms for

  the girls and boys were on ground level at the rear of the building

  beside the short flight of stairs that led out the rear of the building.

                       Connie Eble

 

 

  On Thu, 14 Apr 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:

 

    Date: Thu, 14 Apr 1994 10:59:21 -0500

    From:mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

    Subject: Re: "basement"

   

    Like Keith, I went to school about the same time Natalie did -- actually,

    a few years earlier (1st grade 1946). This is the first time I have ever

    heard of "basement" for bathroom (my perspective is northern Illinois).

   

    Until Jr. High school, it was always "bathroom" ; my parents used "biffy"

    (which is a no. regionalism, according to DARE) but I never picked it up.

    In early adolescenece, some of my male peers got daring and used "john"

    and "can."

   

    Tim Frazer

   



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 08:03:54 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ink pen



    My Middle Georgia wife reports that she and her friends were once

sent into paroxisms of laughter upon hearing a young man from Tennessee

disambiguate the homophonous pin/pen by asking for a "marking pen."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 09:36:24 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: stalking horse



Heard it all my life. Sounds OK.



Whoop! Hubba!



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 18:40:52 EDT

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Cajun query



Dear colleagues,

I have a letter from a student at the State University of Groningen, the

Netherlands, majoring in Management in International Relations, and working

on a research paper for the Department of English. He is interested in Cajun

culture and language in Louisiana, and in what way these have been preserved

through the ages.

   He asks me for answers to the following questions. I could make a try,

but I suspect there's a good published source or two that would do better. Or

maybe one of you would like to write a reply. Here are his questions:

1. Should Cajun language be labelled as a language or as a dialect?

2. Is Cajun language a composition of several languages, and if so, which

languages?

3. Is Cajun language still spoken on a large scale in Louisiana? Is it still

being used in, for instance, local newspapers, local radio and TV stations,

etc.?

4. Is Cajun language spoken by several population groups or just one group of

the population?

5. Could you give some examples of typical Cajun words or sayings, etc.?

6. Has Cajun language undergone any major developments through the ages or

has it more or less remained the same as it was in the 18th century?

7. Is Cajun language also spoken in schools in Louisiana or should standard

American English only be spoke in schools?

8. Also, if there is some sort of Cajun (cultural) institution, could you

send me the name and the address of this institution?

   Thanks for any help you can give. - Allan



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Apr 1994 to 19 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 15 messages totalling 466 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Cutting mustard (3)

 2. Survey request re  length 

 3. Cutting Mustard

 4. Dutch Oven

 5. stalking horse (2)

 6. Cajun query (5)

 7. Call for papers: LASSO

 8. Cajun query correctives



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 22:27:37 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Cutting mustard



One of my colleagues recently asked me if I knew anything about the origins/

distribution of the phrase "can't cut the mustard". Anyone with a ready

answer out there?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Apr 1994 22:46:25 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Survey request re  length 



Before the semester grinds to a close, it occurred to me that it might be

useful to ask those who are teaching phonetic/phonemic-savvy classes to do

a quick-and-dirty survey to have students write down how they pronounce

 length  and  strength , and report the tally of the results on ADS-L. It

might help establish some picture of current regional distribution.

    Also, I'm working on a paper on the meanings of  Dutch oven , and would

like to get some samplings from other areas, since my database is primarily

Texas. Of interest is what it is made of, where it is found, how it is used,

what it looks like, and details of shape. (To say more is a giveaway.) It

can generate lively interest in classes where there are different answers

(it may be useful to collect spontaneous answers on the spot, and then give

students time to ask someone else, especially a parent, about it, and collect

the second-hand information as well). Actually equally of interest, though

for a different reason, are the responses of students who don't know what it

is but guess on the basis of the name. The paper will be titled, appropriately

"What is a Dutch Oven?", and I'll probably give it at an ADS meeting. Meanwhile

any contributions (including percentages) are welcome. Incidentally, it is

often useful to ask people to draw a sketch if they can. Many thanks,

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 09:12:32 EDT

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cutting Mustard



Since mustard was originally made by mixing grape juice with powdered

mustard seed (hence the Latin "mustum" meaning "new wine"), I had always

thought that "cutting the mustard" was related to success in this endeavor

(ie. having both good crops of the plant and the vine); however, this has

only been an intuitive conjecture without documentation on my part.





David Muschell



Georgia College



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 09:03:12 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cutting mustard



Drawing on various sources (including the OED), David Feldman in "Who Put the

Butter in Butterfly" (a fun book I picked up recently) notes that 'cut the

mustard' is a descendant of two early 20th-cent. expressions, "the proper

mustard" ('OK, genuine') and "all the mustard" ('great'). THe first citing of

the above is from an O. Henry story: "I looked around and found a proposition

that exactly cut the mustard". (A useful trick for philosophers, no doubt.)

Feldman offers two derivations for c.t.m. and its cousins. One is

"mustard" "muster", as in passing muster. The other relates it to the

'dilute' meaning of "cut": you would have to cut mustard with vinegar, water,

etc. (before the advent of "cream-style" mustard--think of your Coleman's)

just as anymore you (or your neighbors) would cut street heroin with, say,

flour to reduce its potency and increase profits.

  Curiously, Spears's Dictionary of Slang and Euphemism only gives a

different sense for "cut the mustard", as a variant of "cut the cheese", viz.

'break wind' ("with a reference to the odor rather than the sound"). How we

might have gotten from there to the 'meet or succeed expectations' sense is

rather a mystery, though.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 09:57:49 EDT

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Dutch Oven



    My Dutch oven here in Georgia is a cast iron contraption with a

skillet sized bottom and six inch high sides in which I bake numerous tasty

meals. It's sold with that name in our stores. I had always thought its

name was associated with the numerous ethnic derogatory terms the English

associated with Dutch frugality (Dutch treat, Dutch courage), and since it

originally would have been placed on coals in a fireplace, it was cheap and

portable form of a stove. No offense meant to any Netherlanders out there.







 David Muschell



 Georgia College



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 07:55:01 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: stalking horse



On Mon, 18 Apr 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:



  My chair used the phrase "stalking horse" today--which I'd never

  heard before. It's in American Heritage, but seems like something

  that would have regional variation. (Or am I just trying to

  cover my ignorance?) Ideas?

  --

  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

  "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                          -Clifford Geertz



Guess I'm ignorant as well. I have never heard the phrase.



It's in Merriam Webster's Collegiate as well....



How did your chair use the expression?



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 09:09:16 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cutting mustard



   See William Safire's "Word Play", New York Times Magazine, 12 April

   1981, p. 18. The suggestion is that cut the mustard comes from the

   earlier cut the muster. Cut used in the sense of outdo or excel and

   muster used in the sense of an act or process of critical examination.

   Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu U. of Missouri-Columbia.





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Cutting mustard

Author: RTROIKE%ARIZVMS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  4/19/94 10:27 PM





One of my colleagues recently asked me if I knew anything about the origins/

distribution of the phrase "can't cut the mustard". Anyone with a ready

answer out there?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 10:03:47 CDT

From:  Glen Accardo  glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTINT.COM 

Subject: Re: Cajun query



While I'm not the best to answer all of your questions, I grew up in southern

LA, Cajun Country on some maps I've seen, and went to school at the University

of Southwestern Louisiana.



If you would like more detailed information on Cajun Venacular English,

including several publications, contact Dr. Ann Scott at the U.S.L. English

Department -- ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usl.edu



  1. Should Cajun language be labelled as a language or as a dialect?

dialect, maybe two. There is cajun french and cajun english. Since the

native language is different, and there is varying level of french and

english, I'd say there are two separate dialects, and a range in between.



  2. Is Cajun language a composition of several languages, and if so, which

  languages?

The expressions are French and English, and I assume that many things along

the journey from England to The Netherlands to Canada to Louisiana influenced

the dialect greatly.



  3. Is Cajun language still spoken on a large scale in Louisiana? Is it still

  being used in, for instance, local newspapers, local radio and TV stations,

  etc.?

It is like most dialects in that it is considered a bastard language. It is

heard, but my opinion is that most people consider it cute or quaint, and

would rather news anchors sound like Dan Rather or someone more "generic."

There are Cajun French radio programs, there is news in French, and plenty

of Cajun music.



I would hesitate to call the dialect "large scale." Geographically, I've

seen a majority of it concentrated in an area about twice the size of

Houston, TX. However, even though many areas are geographically isolated,

the language seems to be rather consistent throughout, perhaps suggesting

that its development is somewhat static compared to other dialects.



  7. Is Cajun language also spoken in schools in Louisiana or should standard

  American English only be spoke in schools?

When I was in high school (grad '82), I never heard a Cajun dialect. In

college, I heard a few, but they were generally rather faint cajun accents.

My parents, and others of their age but different areas, say that speaking

French was roughly the same as cursing. That is, saying shit or oui would

get you slapped.



  8. Also, if there is some sort of Cajun (cultural) institution, could you

  send me the name and the address of this institution?

There are several. Dr. Scott could give you a bit more information.



------------

glen accardo             glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softint.com

Software Interfaces, Inc.      (713) 492-0707

Houston, TX 77084



Did the Corinthians ever write back?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 11:50:26 EDT

From:  MArk Ingram  MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: Re: stalking horse



I've heard "stalking horse" used in a political context ie someone testing

the waters for a hidden candidate. The stalking horse would then presumably

withdraw if the concealed candidate enters the race? At any rate I have heard

it that way for years. I asked a colleague of mine who has considerable

verbal skills about the phrase, but she claims to have never heard it before.

I feel sure it is in common use though.



Mark Ingram

Lexington, Ky



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 12:23:00 MST

From:  Garland Bills  GBILLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BOOTES.UNM.EDU 

Subject: Call for papers: LASSO



               Call for Papers



                LASSO XXIII



            23rd Annual Meeting of the

         Linguistic Association of the Southwest



              October 21-23, 1994

               Houston, Texas



        Invited Speaker:  Ian Hancock, University of Texas-Austin



Proposals for papers in any area of linguistics will be considered.

Submissions are particularly encouraged in the areas of the theme of the 1994

meeting: "Minority Languages and Contact Varieties". Papers by graduate

students are especially solicited and will be considered for the Helmut Esau

Prize, a $250 cash award made annually by LASSO. Presentation time will be

limited to twenty minutes plus ten minutes for discussion.



*The deadline for receipt of abstracts is June 15, 1994.* Abstracts must be no

longer than one page (approximately 250 words) and should summarize the main

points of the paper and explain relevant aspects of the data, methodology, and

argumentation employed; abstracts of accepted papers will be published exactly

as received in a booklet for distribution at the meeting. At the beginning of

your abstract place the paper title, and at the end of the abstract (or on a

separate page) repeat the title along with your name, affiliation, and mailing

address (and e-mail address if you have one).



It is preferred that abstracts be submitted by e-mail to:

        huttar[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org

In the absence of e-mail, or if your abstract contains any special symbols,

send one hard copy (or diskette) of the abstract to:

        George Huttar

        S. I. L.

        7500 W. Camp Wisdom Rd.

        Dallas, TX 75236



Presentation of papers at the LASSO annual meetings is a privilege of

membership in LASSO. Annual membership dues for individuals are US$15.00 (or

US$7.50 for students, retired persons, and those not employed), which includes

a year's subscription to the *Southwest Journal of Linguistics*. To pay dues

or for additional information, contact:

        Garland D. Bills

        Executive Director, LASSO

        Department of Linguistics

        University of New Mexico

        Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196

          e-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bootes.unm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 12:36:50 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Cajun query



To answer the queries on Cajun language & culture:



1. Should Cajun language be labelled as a language or as a dialect?

  A dialect, if one considers mutually intelligibility with Metropolitan

  French to be the criteria. (However, don't most languages end up being

  called a `language' for political reasons?) But this is complicated by the

  fact that a continuum exists such that some would include

  Louisiana Creole in the realm of Louisiana French.



2. Is Cajun language a composition of several languages, and if so, which

languages?

  Louisiana French is owing to the combination of elements from `Colonial

  French', Acadian French, Creole and lexical contributions from Spanish,

  Choctaw, African languages and other Native American languages. But it

  is not homogeneous, and different varieties will exhibit greater or

  lesser commonality with Colonial or Creole. In almost all cases, however,

  the Acadian element is dominant.



3. Is Cajun language still spoken on a large scale in Louisiana? Is it still

being used in, for instance, local newspapers, local radio and TV stations,

etc.?

  Estimates vary, but there remain several hundred thousand speakers of

  Cajun French in Louisiana and Southeastern Texas. Fluent speakers are

  generally over 55 yrs. old. This is due to transmission failure because of

  the official policy of stigmatization pursued in Louisiana until 1968. There

  are only a couple `newspapers' in French (one by CODFIL=Council for

  the Development of French in Louisiana, La Gazette de Louisiane) but

  very few read them because Cajun French speakers are typically illiterate

  in French. On the other hand, some local news programs and religious

  broadcasts on TV set aside a few minutes for French each day. There are

  a few radio programs and even a couple of radio stations that broadcast

  predominantly of exclusively in French.



4. Is Cajun language spoken by several population groups or just one group of

the population?

  There is a mosaic that includes whites, African Americans and Native

  Americans. Some African Americans speak Creole varieties, others are

  indistinguishable from the white Cajun majority. The whites include

  the descendants of the Acadian immigrants, descendants of other French

  colonists arriving both before and after the Acadian immigrations (1765-

  1785), and immigrants of many other nationalities that assimilated to

  the dominant Acadian Cajun code. Germans are especially well represented.



5. Could you give some examples of typical Cajun words or sayings, etc.?

  The two classic phrases are: Laissez rouler les bons temps

                 `Let the good times roll'



                 La^che pas la patate

                 `Hang in there' (lit. don't drop the potato)





6. Has Cajun language undergone any major developments through the ages or

has it more or less remained the same as it was in the 18th century?

  It's hard to say since there are few written records of earlier forms

  of Cajun French. Clearly, however, there has been change. The

  vocabulary has been enriched in past periods, but with growing

  bilingualism and English dominance, code-switching and other `intercode'

  phenomena have replaced French-sourced productivity.



7. Is Cajun language also spoken in schools in Louisiana or should standard

American English only be spoke in schools?

  There are some immersion programs in Louisiana public schools to promote

  French among the young. In most cases it is not Cajun French that is

  being taught, though teachers (who are usually from France, Quebec or

  Belgium) do get some orientation concerning local French. From the

  turn of the century until the policy reversal in 1968, French in

  school was greatly discouraged and, for a time, even against the law.



8. Also, if there is some sort of Cajun (cultural) institution, could you

send me the name and the address of this institution?

  Two possibly useful adresses:



  University of Southwestern Louisiana

  Center for Acadian and Creole Folklore

  Lafayette, Louisiana 70504



  CODOFIL

  217 West Main Street

  Lafayette, Louisiana 70501-6843



For a very readable overview of Cajun culture: _Cajun Country_ by Ancelet

et al, University Press of Mississippi, 1991. It also contains some

transcriptions of Cajun French stories, jokes and songs with translations.



That's all I have time for. Hope it will be helpful to you.

Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 15:19:08 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Cajun query correctives



A mistake and an oversight on my Cajun query answers:



Mistake: I accidentally arranged the serial verbs in the order preferred

for Metropolitan French. Should be: Laissez les bons temps rouler



Oversight: English was also a source for true borrowings into Cajun French

(but, as stated, this has been largely superseded by switching and what I

call `intercode' phenomena).



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 15:25:00 EDT

From:  "Mary.Ojibway"  20676MKB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Cajun query



I am not a linguist but I have visited relatives along the Grand Caillou bayou

many times. They speak Cajun but are not related to those who came down from

Acadia. My brother-in-law and his family are Houma Indians. There also seem to

be many Blacks who speak that dialect. I would consider the Blacks, white

ancesters of those from Canada, and the Houmas as three different Cajun

speaking groups. That is purely a layman's guess. Wouldn't it just be a

dialect since French in Canada and France can easily understand it? My same

brother-in-law spent one semester as an exchange student in Paris. Everyone

understood his French but he heard frequent comments about how horrible his

grammar was. That's it for me. I am sorry I can't be of more help. Perhaps if

you contacted my brother-in-law, he could be more helpful. He's a professor at

the Vermont Law School but receives he mail via Dartmouth at:

               Bruce Duthu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Dartmouth.edu

I haven't had much luck reaching him there. Supposedly they collect messages

and someone from the Dartmouth systems office sends them to the law school

daily. Good luck.

      Kate Ojibway



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:39:58 CDT

From:  Glen Accardo  glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTINT.COM 

Subject: Re: Cajun query



  5. Could you give some examples of typical Cajun words or sayings, etc.?

   The two classic phrases are: Laissez rouler les bons temps

                  `Let the good times roll'



I've always heard "Laissez les bons temps rouler."



------------

glen accardo             glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softint.com

Software Interfaces, Inc.      (713) 492-0707

Houston, TX 77084



Did the Corinthians ever write back?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Apr 1994 16:26:00 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Cajun query



Yes, as Mary Ojibway indicated, there is a sizable group of Houma

in Louisiana, many of whom speak Cajun French. The group is about 11,000

strong, by far the largest Native American group in Louisiana. They reside

mainly in Lafourche and Terrebonne parishes. I don't

know what percentage speak Cajun. Perhaps because of greater group

cohesion and/or isolation, this group is one of the very few where

children are still found speaking Cajun French. As far as I know the Houma

language was entirely superseded by French and is now extinct.



A few aged Coushatta (Koasati) speak Cajun French as well. I had the unique

opportunity of meeting and recording one of them in the summer of '92. His

French was identical to that of other Prairie Cajuns in St. Landry Parish and

west. There are only about 350 Coushatta on the tribal lands in Allen Parish.

The Coushatta tongue is still spoken there, but I would guess that its

situation is precarious.



There are also about 500 Chitimacha in St. Mary Parish. Although I know that

the language is extinct, I don't know how many are French speakers today.

Ditto for the Tunica-Biloxi in Avoyelles Parish (about 250). There are some

Choctaw groups in Anglophone Louisiana, only one of which, the Jena group,

still retains use of Choctaw to any degree.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Apr 1994 to 20 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 145 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Bring/Take (7)

 2. stalking horse

 3. dutch oven



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 00:49:30 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Bring/Take



Calling all late-night linguists:

    A colleague of mine has a visitor from New Jersey who baked some

cookies, and when she was complimented on them, she told the friends who

had come over and been served them, "Bring some home with you." The

cookie-eaters were much taken aback by this usage, to hear tell the

tale, but my colleague, whose wife is from New York, said that she also

said this rather than "Take some home with you". He speculates that it

may be a Yiddishism, which is plausible, since German uses directional

verbs differently from English. This may be a well-documented

regionalism, but I had not encountered it before, and wondered if anyone

knew anything definite about it.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 08:05:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Bring/Take



I think you are exactly right about the German(ic) [-English] backgrounds of

the bring/take 'confusion.' Milwaukee, for example, is a hotbed of it. Have a

look at my article ('Take and bring') in Word, 35,2, 1984, pp. 177-86.

Dennis Preston  22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 07:52:06 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: stalking horse



My chair said, "We're not using her as a stalking horse." His

own explanation of the term was of hiding behind the horse

in order not to spook bison while hunting on the plains. Thus

my wondering about regional distribution, even though American

Heritage lists it without qualification. It may be generational.

It may have to do with arenas of care--i.e. caring about the

mechanisms of party politics, for example. Or it could simply

be something I've never encountered for other reasons.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 09:45:37 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: dutch oven



3 LAMSAS informants gave "Dutch oven" as a response to the 'frying pan'

question: 2 on the Shenandoah River in No. Virginia and 1 in Baltimore

(all type A "folk").



One of my informants (elderly farmer, central SC) showed me a Dutch oven

in his shed. It was made of cast iron, had legs, had an indentation

around the lid for putting coals in, and was about the size of a large

saucepan. I think it was used for making (corn?)bread.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:16:55 -0500

From:  Lana P Strickland  striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bring/Take



Bring/take are often interchangeable here in the South--and I wouldn't

guess that it would have anything to do with Yiddish. It is treated

similar to learn/teach. Also, in the rural South where I grew up, the

in-group brings, the out-group takes, i.e. "Bring some cookies home to your

family" vs. "He is going to take some cookies home to his family"



--Lana

striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 09:42:02 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Bring/Take



Lana,

    Thanks for the note. Ironically, my colleague who asked about this

is from Alabama! (Birmingham) Looking forward to hearing about your survey.

    --Rudy



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 16:42:03 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bring/Take



      Thanks for the note. Ironically, my colleague who asked about this

  is from Alabama! (Birmingham) Looking forward to hearing about your survey.



I'm a native Mississippian and find the use of "bring" for "take" strange.

I can talk about bringing something home if I'm home at the time I'm using

that word. If I'm somewhere other than home at the time, I talk about

taking something home, not bringing it home. Bringing means in the direction

of where I am during the conversation; taking means the other direction.



I sent Rudy's original posting to an e-mail friend in New England who

sometimes uses Yiddish, and she said she saw no difference between "bring"

and "take" -- that either would have been ok in that example.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 19:25:03 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Bring/Take



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



I don't know if the bring/take confusion is German or not. "Click and Clack,

the Tappet Bros." of NPR fame aka Tom & Ray Mariozzi (sp?) mentio0n it on the

air regularly. I also remember it being the subject of overt instruction in

1950 in primary school on LI.                      DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Apr 1994 17:47:51 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bring/Take



At 04:42 PM 4/21/94 -0500, Natalie Maynor wrote:

 I'm a native Mississippian and find the use of "bring" for "take" strange.

 I can talk about bringing something home if I'm home at the time I'm using

 that word. If I'm somewhere other than home at the time, I talk about

 taking something home, not bringing it home. Bringing means in the direction

 of where I am during the conversation; taking means the other direction.



Same here. GWW



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Apr 1994 to 21 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 36 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Bring/Take

 2. Bring & take



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Apr 1994 07:54:23 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Bring/Take



bring/take: sw PA in the early 50's, I had clear distinctions,

tho I do remember it being taught with lie/lay and sit/set as

a problem.



bring/take: eastern NDak in the mid 70's, my children used bring

where I would use take and borrow where I would use lend (e.g.

Borrow me $5.00).



Having hung around my kids, I now have heard myself say bring

when I wouldn't have as a kid and borrow. I also find myself

using waked as past and woke as pp (e.g. I waked up. He would've

woke up if you put water on his head.) I assume I've picked up

these forms from kids/residents someplace in the midwest or

midlands (as the residents call the central plains).

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Apr 1994 17:16:02 EDT

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Bring & take



As others may have remarked, *Webster's Dictionary of English Usage* (M-W

1989) tells all you'd want to know about *bring* and *take*. Well, almost

all.

 - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Apr 1994 to 22 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 104 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Stewer/Saucepan

 2. Negative Southern Image again

 3. basement

 4. Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Apr 1994 23:48:00 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Stewer/Saucepan



One of my colleagues asks if I am familiar with "stewer" as a term for

"saucepan". I'm not, but is anybody else?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Apr 1994 23:56:20 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Negative Southern Image again



A note from my colleague Dick Demers in Linguistics: too good not to

share. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)





From:  UACCIT::DEMERS    22-APR-1994 10:57

To:   RTROIKE

CC:

Subj:  more drawl bashing



One of the commercials on 60 minutes last weekend was from the Polaner

Jam company. Several elegantly dressed people are sitting around what

looks like a dinner table. Several of the people ask for the Polaner

jam to be passed using almost Received P English. Suddenly you hear

a Gomer Pyle type voice saying "Would someone pass the jelly."

One lady almost faints at the use of the word "jelly" in describing

Polaner. The point is that the creators of the commercial felt

the need to underscore the person's lack of social awareness and

good breeding by giving him a southern accent. Somedays it all

seems hopeless. Dick



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Apr 1994 07:06:07 -0400

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU 

Subject: basement



   In New Orleans in the 1940s, elementary school children called the

bathroom basement. We had the girls' basement and the boys' basement.

Even though the school didn't have a basement, these facilities were

located on the lowest level of the school, in the rear, beneath the two

stair wells. My colleague Bill Harmon, who was growing up in Concord,

North Carolina at the same time, says that in his school there were even

upstairs basements and downstaris basements.

                     Connie Eble



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Apr 1994 16:31:00 GMT

From:  ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject: Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English



I wonder whether I could use the net to canvass opinion about what I should

recommended my 268 first year students in Northern Ireland to read in

conjunction with one lecture to them on American English. What would you

folks like them to be reading?



More precisely, I'm interested in the concept of American English rather

than a structural description and even less a structural comparison

between it and any kind of British English. So I'm interested in:



a) the historical context of AmEng - cf. Algeo's arguments that AmEng is

the righful successor to EModE, etc. So whereas English used to equate

with British English, English noe equates with American English. Of all

varieties of English, AmEng is the great donor variety, and we in the UK

borrow as much asa any other language from AmEng.



b) the present-day context: English is a (also *the*) world language,

and that world English = American English.



c) The 'official language campaign' context - the need to legislate

for English (otherwise unheard of in the history of English) because

for all its world-wide use and fame, it's under threat in its own back

yard!



b) The 'ethnic' question: is Ameican English white English? (So here

I take all my examples of BLACK English from toni Morrison's _Beloved_ as that

 is the *only* novel on our first year course on the literature side.)



e) Then a little structural description organised as conservative and

innovatory - American English as Elizabethan English vs. American English

at the cutting edge of linguistic invention (and reasons why).



So any got good suggestions where all these sort of points are discussed

in any single place??



After the lecture, there'll be a seminar where, thanks to the list, I've

decided to show this year the video _American Tonguers



(oops Tongues_; (d) came out as (b) above, anyone as any: my apologies -

I do these on-line with very limited scope for correction.)



With many thanks,



JOHN KIRK

The Queen's University of Belfast

Email: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUB.AC.UK

Fax: (+44) 232 314615



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Apr 1994 to 23 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 63 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Not in Kansas (2)

 2. dutch oven



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Apr 1994 12:17:09 EST

From:  "Nancy C. Elliott"  ELLIOTTN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Not in Kansas



All the anecdotes make me want to add a couple of my own. Soon after we

were married, my Michigander husband was cooking dinner and asked me for

a "calendar." I was puzzled and told him there was one hanging on the

wall in the bedroom. His confused look made me realize that he really

wanted a colander. Sometime later this Detroiter mentioned needing to

wear a "salad-colored" shirt. I looked down at the salad I was eating

and thought 'green with litle bits of orange and purple??' Then it

dawned on me that he needed a solid-colored shirt. I'm getting used to

his 'Great Lakes Vowel Shift' pronunciations. I know now that Ellen is

a man's name.



By the way, when I was a kid in Kansas I always thought it was "Toto" with

a 't'.

Nancy Elliott

Indiana University



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Apr 1994 12:25:57 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Not in Kansas



I realize this is more in the way of a reanalysis, but it's

a great one.



My son, who will be five next week, asked me the other night

if I knew Nick Cardinal. I assumed it had something to do with

a preschool story. Yes, in part. "Owls," he told me, "are Nick

Cardinal. They sleep in the day."



dennis



--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Apr 1994 12:22:12 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: dutch oven



I remember two Dutch ovens from my childhood, utensils that had been in the

family in Arkansas and Texas. One had legs and the other did not. My

mother liked the legless one for certain things cooked in the oven. It

was made of heavy cast iron and had a heavy lid. It was about 7 inches in

diameter and about 4.5 inches deep. The legged Dutch oven was relegated to

a junk pile because we didn't cook on open fires. She would sear a potroast

in a cast iron skillet and then cook it, along with potatoes, carrots, onions,

and celery,in the Dutch oven.        DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Apr 1994 to 24 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 282 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. info on teaching dialectology

 2. Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English

 3. Negative so. image

 4. Stewer/Saucepan

 5. drawl

 6. grad. work in translation

 7. Bounced Mail

 8. Negativity Publicity



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 08:57:04 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Martinez  MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU 

Subject: info on teaching dialectology



I am designing a new undergraduate course in general dialectology; and would

appreciate any suggestions on textbooks and ideas to improve my design.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 10:29:49 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English



I sympathise with John Kirk's request for neat information on American

English.



For my course called "American English" this quarter, I despaired of

finding any single text that I thought would do the trick. What is still

the best single little book on the subject is the rev. ed. of Carroll

Reed's *Dialects of American English* (UMass Press, 1977). This book of

course has many holes and substantially misses the development of Labovian

sociolinguistics. Roger Shuy's *Discovering American Dialects* (NCTE, c.

1967) appears still to be in print but has the same problem only

worse---Shuy's major work in sociolinguistics came after it. A somewhat

larger book is Wolfram's *Dialects and American English* (Prentice Hall,

1992), which is excellent on just those subjects that Reed and Shuy are

too early for, but misses all the historical coverage and doesn't offer

lists of features that are associated with different locales. McDavid's

edition of Mencken's *The American Language* also still has great

merits. Marckwardt's *American English* (1st ed., Oxford, 1958) and

Mathews' *The Beginnings of American English* (Chicago, 1931, repr.

1973), both important sources for me, are out of print.



What I finally did was to make a "professor publisher packet" at the local

copy shop, in which the centerpieces were McDavid's chapter in Nelson

Francis's *Structure of American English* (Ronald, 1958) and Sumner Ives's

"A Theory of Literary Dialect" (from Williamson and Burke, *A Various

Language* (c. 1967), which is a revision of the *Tulane Studies in

English* article). I supplemented these with Crevecouer's *Letters from

an American Farmer*, and with several short pieces including Hartman's

"Pronunciation Guide" from DARE vol. 1, Labov's "Three Dialects of

English" (from the Eckert anthology), several articles on Black (and White

Southern) English by the likes of Feagin, Fasold, and Bailey and Maynor.

I also blushed and put in a couple of my own essays to update what McDavid

wrote about dialects. The whole thing ended up costing the students

about $20, which included $6 in royalties (as the copy shop reported).



In short, there is a great need now for just the sort of work outlined by

Kirk. I hope somebody writes one.



******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Apr 1994 10:39:16 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Negative so. image



Yeah, I had the same reaction to the jelly commercial. They don't use a

NY working class accent like they would have 40 yrs ago.



One of my grad students is from KY and gets upset over "Duke of Hazzrd."



Tim F



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 14:08:14 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Stewer/Saucepan



Rudy et al:



Funny, as I was putting the dishes away the other day, I thought of the

word "stewer" for the first time in ages. My grandmother said it (b.

1898, rural west Georgia, small farm). It was another of those things

she said that was not easily interpreted by me as a child. It was years

before I could analyze it morhpologically as stew + er; I imagined it as

steuer or something, I guess. One of those words one rarely encounters

in writing.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 13:43:38 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: drawl



Since a discussion of accents that is parallel to the one on ADS-L is going on

on Linguist List, I am just going to re-post here my latest contribution

to the latter. -Mike Picone

======================================================================== 66

To:      The Linguist List  linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamsun.tamu.edu 



Some more on drawl:



Recently in Chicago I had the occasion to see the TV add for Polaner jam

(I don't know if it's being run in the South, since I don't have a TV). It's

a fine example of the use of stigmatized white Southern accent for comic

effect. A colleague on ADS-L (Dick Demers) summarized it this way:



 From:  DEMERS    22-APR-1994

 Subj:  more drawl bashing



 One of the commercials on 60 minutes last weekend was from the Polaner

 Jam company. Several elegantly dressed people are sitting around what

 looks like a dinner table. Several of the people ask for the Polaner

 jam to be passed using almost Received P English. Suddenly you hear

 a Gomer Pyle type voice saying "Would someone pass the jelly."

 One lady almost faints at the use of the word "jelly" in describing

 Polaner. The point is that the creators of the commercial felt

 the need to underscore the person's lack of social awareness and

 good breeding by giving him a southern accent. Somedays it all

 seems hopeless. Dick



Let me add to the above another example a la Cokie Roberts of a

Southerner (raised in Georgia) who buys into the general convention of

drawl stigmatization. This comes from a very interesting piece on the

post-Civil War white Southern identity crisis compared with the search

for African-American identity. Interestingly, apart from the concession

to drawl bashing, it is in every other way

sensitive to Southern issues (and possibly helps shed light on

Cokie Roberts' adverse reaction to the senior Southern politician who she

chose to ridicule for his linguistic habits):



"Defeat in civil war cast whites in the region as inferior, certainly second-

class American citizens. Moreover, white Southerners, by virtue of their

emphasis on racial solidarity, lost touch with their European origins in the

procrustean bed of racial politics. They became Whites, or what George

Tindall called ethnic Southerners. ... As a self-conscious minority, white

Southerners have behaved curiosly in our republic. For much of their history

they have been as un-American as any group one might find. Thought of by

the dominant culture as lazy, ignorant, and mentally slow, their manner

of speech, the ungrammatical Southern drawl, only confirmed the suspicion.

Their leaders were worse. Knowing after Appomattox that none among them would

ever be elected president (a sure sign of second-class citizenship), Southern

politicians adopted a rhetoric and style that at its uproarious best was

called demagogic. ... Though the African-American experience defies comparison,

and indeed might be thought a gross affront even to attempt, might not close

scrutiny reveal the same comedy, tragedy, meanness and generosity found in

the white South?" - E. Culpepper Clark, Executive Assistant to the President,

University of Alabama, in a recent address to the Phi Beta Kappa honorary, as

reprinted in the Tuscaloosa News, April 24, 1994.



Finally, in reference to accents & actors, I overheard a relevant

conversation among theater goers last Friday at a Univ. of Alabama student

production. Two female students were comparing how

"bad" their accents were. It seems that one was not able to suppress hers

enough to be considered good acting fodder and so opted for set design as her

area of concentration. All the baggage that comes with a Southern accent is

acutely felt in this kind of a situation and can go far to frustrate a chosen

career that is media related.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 14:16:59 -0500

From:  Alan Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.BITNET 

Subject: grad. work in translation



I have a student who's finishing up an undergraduate English program, but

who wants to consider graduate work in linguistics, especially translation.

As the area is not one I work in, can any of you suggest possible graduate

programs that he could write to for information?



Both he and I will appreciate your input.



Thanks.



Alan Slotkin

ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.bitnet



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 19:10:55 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



When including a previous posting, be sure to edit out the headers

that refer to ADS-L. Otherwise your message will bounce. It's a

loop-preventive measure.



  Date:     Mon, 25 Apr 1994 15:38:33 -0400

  From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f)  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from CENTER.COLGATE.EDU

  To: Natalie Maynor  MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  1131 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (78 lines) -------------------------

  Date: 25 Apr 1994 11:30:45 -0400 (EDT)

  From: Becky Howard  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

  Subject: Re: Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English

 

  Bill Kretzschmar, your suggestions for an American English syllabus are very

  helpful; I, too, have been struggling with the paucity of sources for a topic

  on which I teach a course. I'm not familiar with the Eckert anthology; can

  you give me more information? And of course I'm looking forward to using the

  new Glowka and Lance volume when next I teach the course.

 

  Thanks,

 

  Becky Howard

  Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

  Colgate University

  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU

 

  --------------

  Subj: RE: Articles, Papers or Chapters on American English

 

  I sympathise with John Kirk's request for neat information on American

  English.

 

  For my course called "American English" this quarter, I despaired of

  finding any single text that I thought would do the trick. What is still

  the best single little book on the subject is the rev. ed. of Carroll

  Reed's *Dialects of American English* (UMass Press, 1977). This book of

  course has many holes and substantially misses the development of Labovian

  sociolinguistics. Roger Shuy's *Discovering American Dialects* (NCTE, c.

  1967) appears still to be in print but has the same problem only

  worse---Shuy's major work in sociolinguistics came after it. A somewhat

  larger book is Wolfram's *Dialects and American English* (Prentice Hall,

  1992), which is excellent on just those subjects that Reed and Shuy are

  too early for, but misses all the historical coverage and doesn't offer

  lists of features that are associated with different locales. McDavid's

  edition of Mencken's *The American Language* also still has great

  merits. Marckwardt's *American English* (1st ed., Oxford, 1958) and

  Mathews' *The Beginnings of American English* (Chicago, 1931, repr.

  1973), both important sources for me, are out of print.

 

  What I finally did was to make a "professor publisher packet" at the local

  copy shop, in which the centerpieces were McDavid's chapter in Nelson

  Francis's *Structure of American English* (Ronald, 1958) and Sumner Ives's

  "A Theory of Literary Dialect" (from Williamson and Burke, *A Various

  Language* (c. 1967), which is a revision of the *Tulane Studies in

  English* article). I supplemented these with Crevecouer's *Letters from

  an American Farmer*, and with several short pieces including Hartman's

  "Pronunciation Guide" from DARE vol. 1, Labov's "Three Dialects of

  English" (from the Eckert anthology), several articles on Black (and White

  Southern) English by the likes of Feagin, Fasold, and Bailey and Maynor.

  I also blushed and put in a couple of my own essays to update what McDavid

  wrote about dialects. The whole thing ended up costing the students

  about $20, which included $6 in royalties (as the copy shop reported).

 

  In short, there is a great need now for just the sort of work outlined by

  Kirk. I hope somebody writes one.

 

  ******************************************************************************

  Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

  Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

  University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

  Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Apr 1994 21:34:14 EDT

From:  Al Futrell  AWFUTR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ULKYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Negativity Publicity



A local company is tied up in a law suit here in Louisville and needs an

"expert" witness who can testify on the effects of negative publicity on

sales. Seems a woman filed a sexual harassment charge and even though the

person who committed the harassment was fired she is suing the company. Her

case generated substantial negative publicity for the company and now they

need an "expert" to say that this is possible. I was asked about whether

I know an expert. Well, I am not one but I thought someone out in dialect

land might fill the bill. Let me know. Thanks.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Apr 1994 to 25 Apr 1994

************************************************







There is one message totalling 20 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. reference to Eckert



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Apr 1994 08:39:39 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: reference to Eckert



My cryptic reference to "the Eckert anthology" can be expanded to P.

Eckert, ed., *New Ways of Analysing Sound Change* (Orlando: Academic

Press, 1991). The book is ridiculously expensive (c. $95, as I recall),

but has a number of really fine essays in it, including Labov's "The

Three Dialects of English" which circulated privately for years and was

cited in extenso in Wolfram's *Dialects and American English* before it

ever officially was in print.



******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Apr 1994 to 26 Apr 1994

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 33 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. listserv address? (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Apr 1994 10:26:20 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: listserv address?



I have to set my lists to no-mail for the summer. I find I

don't have the listserv address for ads. Would someone send

it to me? Thanks.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Apr 1994 14:17:55 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: listserv address?



  I have to set my lists to no-mail for the summer. I find I

  don't have the listserv address for ads. Would someone send

  it to me? Thanks.



For LISTSERV lists, you can send the command to any LISTSERV. All the

LISTSERVs in the world are connected. (We're talking about Eric Thomas's

bitnet LISTSERV -- the program that ADS-L is running on.) If you want

to send it directly to the right place, send it to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



P.S. Eric's LISTSERV is usually distinguished from other listservers

by the all caps.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Apr 1994 to 27 Apr 1994

************************************************







There is one message totalling 19 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. American Dialect Society (S. Atlantic Section) CFP



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Apr 1994 13:22:52 -0400

From:  Cathy Ball  CBALL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: American Dialect Society (S. Atlantic Section) CFP



CALL FOR PAPERS: SOUTH ATLANTIC SECTION, AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY

Meeting with SAMLA

Baltimore, Omni Hotel, November 11-13



20 minute papers

Topics: American English in all its varieties; dialectology/variation;

phonetics, phonology, syntax, semantics, pragmatics; language change

in progress



Abstracts due NOW! Send to:

Crawford Feagin, 2312 N. Upton Street, Arlington VA 22207 USA

phone: 703-243-4569



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Apr 1994 to 29 Apr 1994

************************************************





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