There are 13 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. more ambrosia (3)

 2. boston coolers

 3. frappes/cows

 4. Ambrosia?

 5. Ambrosia!

 6. boston coolers (fwd)

 7.  No subject given 

 8. Bounced Mail (3)

 9. Gesundheit!



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 01:40:34 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: more ambrosia



Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ  observed:



    jello salads and ambrosia (sans jello -- only FROZEN coolwhip

      in my family, plus sliced bananas and apples, chopped

      walnuts and maraschino cherries, heaps of shredded

      coconut, and a fortifying splash of almond extract)



I'm so glad you mentioned the maraschino cherries. I had to wait quite some

time at the deli counter at my local Waldbaum's supermarket (North Haven, CT)

this evening, and couldn't help but notice something labeled "ambrosia" whose

only identifiable ingredients (without tasting, and I'm not *that* dedicated

to dialect research!) were maraschino cherries. I suppose there were

marshmallows, and there was something that looked vaguely greenish. I also

overheard some tidbits about sharpening the large meat and cheese slicers, but

those would be off topic...



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 07:44:59 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: more ambrosia



In my hasty reading of the ambrosia thread, I've had the distinct feeling

that people were confusing ambrosia with congealed salads of various kinds.

Or has my hasty reading been even hastier than usual? Ambrosia doesn't

have jello in it, does it? I like jello salads of just about any kind,

especially the ones full of whipped cream and cream cheese -- the ones

that are several thousand calories per bite. I don't particularly like

ambrosia because I don't particularly like coconut, particularly when it's

mixed with fruit (which I do like in other contexts).



Bill K: Is hwy 316 the best route from (near) Atlanta to Athens? And

will there be telnet access at SECOL?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 08:44:56 -0600

From:  Anne Baldwin  abaldwin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PO-1.STAR.K12.IA.US 

Subject: Re: boston coolers



 Re Rootbeer and ice cream:

 

   We called that drink a purple cow



In Chicago in the late 40s and early 50s a mixture of vanilla ice cream and

root beer was called a black cow. Ice cream with grape soda was called a

purple cow. I don't recall any name for ice cream and gingere ale. I

believe we might have called it an ice cream float. An ice cream soda was a

mixture of ice cream, seltzer water and a chocolate or fruit syrup. We made

black cows at home from store bought ingredients, but I never had an ice

cream soda except in ice cream parlors or soda fountains which, in those

days, could be found in any drugstore, usually near the entrance. My

favorite ice cream sodas were strawberry because for some reason the syrup

contained pieces of mashed strawberry. They sometimes clogged the straw,

but when you sucked hard enough you'd be rewarded with a little morse of

pure strawberry, to be washed down by the flood of soda that followed.









=================================================

Robert F. Baldwin,          515/284-8920

Freelance Articles          Member, ASJA



=================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:51:17 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: frappes/cows



 Subject: ginger ale & sherbet

 

   Speaking of another delightful mixture...Does anybody else besides my

neighbors

   in Chicago call a mixture of sherbet (lime or orange) and ginger ale

*frappe.*

   Pronounced frap?

 

 i never had g. ale w/ sherbet, but we used to make ginger ale floats

 with ice cream and my mom told us they were called "boston coolers"

 (upstate n.y.). maybe it was supposed to be sherbet.

 

 lynne

 

There was a variation on the "boston cooler" in Southern Ohio, but they were

called cows. There were several variations. We would put a couple of scoops

of icecream in a glass and then pour in Coca Cola (to make a black cow),

rootbeer (to make a brown cow), or Barq's Creme soda (to make a red cow). I

have no idea why they were called cows. By the way, the Barq's Creme soda

tasted the best.



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 10:51:20 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



ROTFL, Tim. Sorry you are in kiwiland right now. A TV commercial here

celebrates 7-11 stores with a comic who strolls out the front door with

all sorts of junk food in her hands, looks at the camera and says,

"Perrier and pork rinds. Is this heaven, or whut!"

Cheers,

tlc



On Sat, 1 Apr 1995, Tim Behrend wrote:



  I'm beginning to wonder about Wayne Glowka and his ongoing diatribe

  against American basse cuisine. He has in recent days attacked:

 

      meat in general (I forget the details now, but the discussion

        of some flesh product was making him sick)

      s'mores in all their gooey varieties

      jello salads and ambrosia (sans jello -- only FROZEN coolwhip

        in my family, plus sliced bananas and apples, chopped

        walnuts and maraschino cherries, heaps of shredded

        coconut, and a fortifying splash of almond extract)

 

  What will be next? Chocolate chip sprinkled pigs-in-a-blanket? Dump

  cakes? Peanut butter and bologna sandwiches? Pork crackle? Fish

  sticks? Goosewhiz lunchtime spread? American cheese? Polish Boys?

  French hamburgers? Boston coolers? Ice-cold shandies? A six-pack of

  those "full-flavored" Buds? At what point does culinary patriotism

  kick in? What American foods *do* you eat, Wayne Glowka?

 

  Tim Behrend

  University of Auckland

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 14:06:04 -0500

From:  Robert Aldridge  RobertA799[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: more ambrosia



As a newcomer to ADS, I shall insert my first reply re: ambrosia. I remember

that when I was a child living in Meadville, Mississippi, my grandmother was

extremely fond of ambrosia. It was always considered to be a sinfully rich

delight and therefore restricted to special holidays, mainly Christmas. It

was absolutely lush with coconut and had marshmallows, cherries, nuts, and on

and on. Alas, back then I didn't like it. Now I do. Do people still make

it? Maybe someone has already answered this.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:58:26 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Ambrosia!



Wayne wistfully queried...





What did you call that stuff that aunts brought to Thanksgiving dinners in

the 60s and early 70s: it was a mixture of jello, canned fruit, some cool

whip, and maybe some coconut all whipped up in a blender.  Sometimes it

was horrible shades of light green. I always lied about how I tried it and

loved it.

__________________________________________________________________

Mr. G, I am coming to enjoy your descriptive tones more and more,  VBG . I've

known that delightful concoction to be ambrosia, as it tastes heavenly to

me!!! :-)



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 16:38:20 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: boston coolers (fwd)



We call it a rootbeer float.



Jeff Allen



---------- Forwarded message ----------



Re Rootbeer and ice cream:



  We called that drink a purple cow



bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:23:48 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



Wayne Glowka asks:

  What did you call that stuff that aunts brought to Thanksgiving dinners in

  the 60s and early 70s: it was a mixture of jello, canned fruit, some cool

  whip, and maybe some coconut all whipped up in a blender.  Sometimes it

  was horrible shades of light green. I always lied about how I tried it and

  loved it.



Sounds akin to Mom's "strawberry bavarian". (I liked it.)



-- -- -- --

Alecia Holland passes this on:

  this line from the song "Goober Peas." (When the farmer passes, the

  soldiers have a rule; to cry out at their loudest, "Mr., here's your

  mule.")

  What does the phrase mean? Mr. Wiley doesn't explain it, which makes me

  wonder if it is impolite



Conjecture:

During the War Between the States, it was rumored that each freedman

(if Lincoln won) would receive forty acres and a mule. Rebels might

well wonder, where are they going to find all those mules?



-- -- -- --

Bruce Gelder asks:

  Does anyone know of a good prescriptive reference book that tells which

  prepositions go (or are supposed to go) with which verbs in American

  English?



Last time I was in the Mother Country, I almost bought an Oxford dictionary

of phrasal verbs (put on, put up, put out, put over, put in). Would that

be too unAmerican for your purposes?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 17:41:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Sat, 1 Apr 1995 15:38:58 -0500

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from GROVE.IUP.EDU

 

 The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

 6513 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

 notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

 pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  -------------- Message in error (80 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 15:37:37 -0500 (EST)

  From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu 

  Subject: Re: boston coolers

 

 

  Date: Sat, 01 Apr 1995 08:44:56 -0600

  From: Anne Baldwin  abaldwin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PO-1.STAR.K12.IA.US 

  Subject: Re: boston coolers

 

   Re Rootbeer and ice cream:

   

     We called that drink a purple cow

 

   In Chicago in the late 40s and early 50s a mixture of vanilla ice cream and

   root beer was called a black cow. Ice cream with grape soda was called a

   .)purple cow.

 

  You're right! How soon we forget

 

    [deleted material] An ice cream soda was a

   mixture of ice cream, seltzer water and a chocolate or fruit syrup. We made

   black cows at home from store bought ingredients, but I never had an ice

   cream soda except in ice cream parlors or soda fountains which, in those

   days, could be found in any drugstore, usually near the entrance. My

   favorite ice cream sodas were strawberry because for some reason the syrup

   contained pieces of mashed strawberry. They sometimes clogged the straw,

   but when you sucked hard enough you'd be rewarded with a little morse of

   pure strawberry, to be washed down by the flood of soda that followed.

 

  I used to work as a soda jerk in the So-Low Drug Store on the corner of

  Garfield and Wentworth in the fifties, and the favorites were cherry cokes;

  double malted and ice cream sodas made with strawberry syrup or pineapple

  syrup. Both were very chunky. Of course they had to be accompanied by Jays

  Potato Chips!

 

  bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu

 

 

  =================================================

  Robert F. Baldwin,          515/284-8920

  Freelance Articles          Member, ASJA

 

  =================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:55:15 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Bounced Mail



Natalie, I'm puzzled. I did not see any "reference the list whose name we

are not suppsoed to reference in forwardings" (see, I did not say it!) in

the piece of bounced mail I got. Did I just miss it? Am I

understanding you?



Thanks, Bethany



(sorry about the syntax above--I can't type today)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 18:39:16 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bounced Mail



  Natalie, I'm puzzled. I did not see any "reference the list whose name we

  are not suppsoed to reference in forwardings" (see, I did not say it!) in

  the piece of bounced mail I got. Did I just miss it? Am I

  understanding you?



You didn't see it because I edited it out. If I had not edited it out,

the message would have bounced right back. However -- you can say ADS-L

as much as you want to in the body of the mail. It's just in the headers

that it causes a problem. In quoting you above, if I had left in the list

headers, this would bounce. It's a listserv loop-preventive.



Different subject. In case anybody is interested in the answer to the

question I asked Bill K earlier today (my highway question in the posting

about ambrosia), the answer according to my sources here is that hwy 316

is *not* the best route from Atlanta to Athens -- that it's too crowded.

The best route is to stay on I-20 to Conyers and then head north.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 23:20:47 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Sorry folks,



In Austria and in Germany we say Gesundheit when we are sneezing.

That's all !



ciao, Harry

_------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------



Well, Bless You, anyway Harry!





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Mar 1995 to 1 Apr 1995

***********************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 31 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gesundheit!

 2. ADS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 2 Apr 1995 15:49:23 GMT

From:  Harry Dick  h.dick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGNET.AT 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



 Well, Bless You, anyway Harry!



 leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com





GESUNDHEIT, Leo



Servus, Harry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 2 Apr 1995 17:52:00 CDT

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995



Natalie Maynor's comments on her classes's responses to the use of positive *an

ymore* are interesting for a number of reasons, not least because so many of th

e students (about 50%) deny using it or hearing it. In my work on the construc

tion (reported in Frazer's _Heartland English_), I think I mentioned the same t

hing: When asked directly, numerous people deny using it . . . even say it sou

nds "strange"; then they turn around and use it in a sentence! I continue to b

elieve that positive *anymore* is one of those constructions that sneaks into p

eople's language without them realizing it, maybe like the *need + [p.p.]* usag

e in, for example, "the car needs washed."



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Apr 1995 to 2 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 11 messages totalling 232 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. need + participle (3)

 2. Positive Anymore

 3. names to nouns

 4. Ambrosia! (2)

 5. ambrosia

 6. Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"

 7. churros

 8. Bounced Mail



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 07:53:36 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: need + participle



 that sneaks into people's language without them realizing it, maybe like

 the *need + [p.p.]* usage in, for example, "the car needs washed."



Are there any studies on this construction? Does DARE discuss it? I know

three people who use it consistently: one (male, ~30) is from Salt Lake City,

one (female, ~40) is from Montana, and one (male, ~35) is from Akron, Ohio.

I'm just curious about how widespread it is.



By the way, thanks for the replies to my question about prepositions. Several

people have E-mailed me with good suggestions.



--Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 08:15:27 MST

From:  Jim Venis  jimv%ccmailgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IHS.COM 

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



   Expressions including "might could" and "might ought" were not

   uncommon in the suburbs between Dallas and Fort Worth when I lived

   there in the early 1980s. --Jim





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Positive Anymore

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at Internet

Date:  3/31/95 8:38 pm





Although I still remember the first time I heard positive "anymore" and

remember wondering why the person who used it was talking in such a strange

way, I had thought since then (mid '60s) that it was on the increase and that

most people had at least heard it by now. They haven't. The topic arose in

my sociolinguistics class this morning, and I was surprised that

approximately 50% of the students had never heard it at all (none of my

students admitted to ever having used it). One student couldn't decide

whether she had or hadn't heard it from her husband, who "is from New

York and says all kinds of strange things." Several students didn't

understand what "anymore" meant in the example sentence I gave them. They

all understood what "I'm not reading many novels anymore" meant but said

that "I'm reading lots of novels anymore" didn't make any sense. Since my

dialect doesn't include positive anymore, I was afraid my example might be

wrong, so I had them look at the examples on p. 296 of Chaika. They found

it funny that she uses asterisks by the double modals on p. 297 (except

for the first sentence, which she obviously made an error in -- "can

might" for "might can") but that she doesn't put asterisks by sentences

like "Things are getting busier for me anymore." Almost all

of my students would call that sentence non-English but would call "You

might could see him" normal.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:35:25 -0500

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: names to nouns



I'm forwarding this query that has me stumped:



 Is there a term for the process of turning a proper name into a word?



The original querier cites Angstrom. I'll forward any replies back. Thanks!

   Lew Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]saunix.sau.edu 

St. Ambrose University

English and Academic Support

Davenport, IA 52803

319 324-8266



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 11:39:43 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



So far the discussion of ambrosia seems to focus on varieties of Jell-o

based desserts rather than the meaning of the word "ambrosia." Am I the

only one who remembers ambrosia as a mixture primarily of orange and

grapefruit slices, with coconut and perhaps pineapple and/or some other

fresh fruits (but here I get vague) but nothing else except maybe fruit

juice?



I remember my grandmother making it as a part of Christmas dinner (it

would have been over 40 years ago), and that I didn't like it. I

probably would have liked it if it had included Jell-o and something

gooey like Cool-Whip (which hadn't been invented then).



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:33:17 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: Re: need + participle



My wife who is from western Ohio uses need + past participle. Being from

Mississippi myself, and therefore a speaker of proper English, I use

needs + present participle.

Greg Pulliam

Illinois Institute of Tech.

p.s. my wife who is from Mississippi uses need + present participle.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 13:10:49 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: ambrosia



I can attest to 'ambrosia' during 50s/60s church dinners in LA. But I have

this phrase 'Hawaiian Delight' running around in some parallel universe.



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 16:52:11 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: need + participle



On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Gregory J. Pulliam wrote:



  My wife who is from western Ohio uses need + past participle.

  p.s. my wife who is from Mississippi uses need + present participle.



Do I detect some bigamy afoot?



Tim Frazer





 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:00:50 -0400

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"



Does anyone have an idea of the geographical extension of this phrase,

i.e. "this needs washed" instead of "this needs being washed" or "it

needs a washing?"

    Is it limited to Pennsylvania?     --Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 18:10:25 -0400

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: churros



Wayne Glowka's description of American churros were interesting but

definitely different from Spain's--a Spanish churro is a fried light

dough forced through a machine like a metallic pastry bag. The dough

comes out shaped like a long continuous six-pointed star,

and it breaks into pieces in the frier. It's usually sweetened and

eaten with coffee at the national mid-morning coffee break.

                        --Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 19:35:50 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



  Am I the

  only one who remembers ambrosia as a mixture primarily of orange and

  grapefruit slices, with coconut and perhaps pineapple and/or some other

  fresh fruits (but here I get vague) but nothing else except maybe fruit

 "juice?



That's my memory also. No jello.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:17:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Mon, 3 Apr 1995 17:37:14 -0400

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  0257 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (40 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Mon, 3 Apr 1995 12:39:16 -0700

  From: dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu (Dan Alford)

  Message-Id:  9504031939.AA02284[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu 

  Subject: Re: Gesundheit!

 

  Speaking of explosive accents, I have a friend who, when he sneezes, is actually

  able to overlay the words "oh shit" into the sneeze. Quite a talent! Of course,

  who am I to talk?! I often work the word "burp" into my belches! Gee, we should

  have a word for these creative coarticulations!

 

     Date:     Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:49:05 -0500

     From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

     Subject:   Re: Gesundheit!

 

     Growing up in New Jersey in an African American family from Florida, I used the

     term interchangeably with God Bless You. I do recall that as children when we

     pronounced the word, we'd placed an explosive accent on the second syllable so

     that the sounded like a sneeze.

 

     bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu

 

 

 

                             -- Moonhawk (%- )

     "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

     the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 

 

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Apr 1995 to 3 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 25 messages totalling 617 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps (3)

 2. the car needs washed

 3. need + past participle (2)

 4. Gesundheit! (2)

 5. prepositions/phrasal verbs

 6. need + participle (3)

 7. Positive Anymore

 8. Ambrosia!

 9. names to nouns (5)

 10. Tom Murray's example "this needs washed" (2)

 11. Re[2]: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"

 12. The Elusive New England Thick Shake

 13. ambrosia

 14. creme soda



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 22:13:39 +0300

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps



I have been fielding questions for the last few days about the quote in my

.sig file. It's from the song "I Want To Be An Anglepoise Lamp" by the

Soft Boys, a British pop band of the late 1970s. The question from

everyone is "What *is* an anglepoise lamp?" I've been asked so many times

that I had to put a disclaimer in my file.



The one theory so far came from a friend of mine in Boston who suggested

that it may be one of those tall, skinny directional reading lights you

often seebehind easy chairs and such. In my experience, those are simply

called reading lamps.



Do any of you have any suggestions or know where I may find out for sure?



I apologize for the non-food-related content of this message.



Stewart



====================================

"Us, we wanna be some Anglepoise lamps, then . . ."

                        --The Soft Boys

====================================



Stewart Allensworth Mason

 masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu 

PO Box 4056

Portales NM 88130



I don't know what an Anglepoise lamp is either.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Apr 1995 21:16:57 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: the car needs washed



My parents (natives of Indiana) reported hearing "the car needs washed"

when they moved from Illinois to Pittsburgh.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps



 The question from

  everyone is "What *is* an anglepoise lamp?" I've been asked so many times



this is so funny, because i was just reading a.s. byatt's novel

_possession_ and i came across the word "anglepoise" and looked it

up in my british and american dictionaries, but couldn't find it

anywhere!



the mystery continues!



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:47:53 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: need + past participle



This originates, I believe, in pennsylvania and is confined to midland

speech and perhaps to south midland since it is not heard in the southern

half of Iowa (north midland).

Someone who is better versed in regional dialectology than I can probably

give a definitive answer. Am surprised that none such have appeared as yet.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:53:05 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Terry's comment and the previous listings suggest to me that what's happened to

"Gesundheit" and "Bitte!" are similar: both get anglicized in Cinn. I wonder if

the famed anti-german sentiment which Mencken records is responsible: the same

process which around WWI produced "liberty cabbage" for Sauerkraut &c.

calqued "Bitte!" to please and replaced "Gesundheit"with "Bless you!"



David Bergdahl     Ohio University/Athens

BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:03:15 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: prepositions/phrasal verbs



Anton and Bruce,

    No need to be unAmerican. Mort Benson has put out at least

one, and I think possibly several, Combinatory Dictionaries with a

publishing co. called BBI, I think. I believe they're good old

red-meat-and-jello American English-oriented (just to work in the

now-obligatory food reference)...

    I suppose if he hadn't I could say "One needs put out".

Does that sound acceptable to "needs+p.p." users? it doesn't to me,

but then I'm not one...

    --peter patrick

    georgetown u.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 08:06:32 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: need + participle



Anton Sherwood reports:



 My parents (natives of Indiana) reported hearing "the car needs washed"

 when they moved from Illinois to Pittsburgh.



and Cathy Bodin asks:



 Does anyone have an idea of the geographical extension of this phrase,

 i.e. "this needs washed" instead of "this needs being washed" or "it

 needs a washing?"

     Is it limited to Pennsylvania?



I had claimed in my original posting that one of the three people I know

who use the construction consistently is from Salt Lake City. I remember

now that he's actually originally from Pennsylvania (western, I think--but

I'm not certain), so that makes three Pennsylvania sources so far. Is

it very widespread there?



Also, we already have reports of two sources in Ohio, plus I received E-mail

from someone stating that his mother from Akron used the "needs washed"

construction (his father, from Stowe, OH, used the "needs washing"

construction). So that makes three sources in Ohio so far, two of

which are from Akron.



Am I to assume from this that this is a fairly common construction between

Akron and Pittsburgh? Is it the norm?



Also, if there's anyone out there from Montana, is it also used there with

any regularity? Or is it just a quirk in my friend's case?



Incidentally, Cathy, I'm unfamiliar with the "this needs being washed"

construction. It's not a part of my dialect. I always use the infinitive

(i.e. "this needs to be washed"). And "it needs a washing" is something I

hear at times, but it's not productive for me.



--Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:08:35 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



RE: positive s'mores  just kidding 

My experience is the same at Georgetown, where the students really do

come from all over the US. I always mention positive anymore, and

never get recognition from more than about 1/5 of the class, incl. the

usual New England, Penna. residents. Often their incredulity is so

striking that I'm pretty sure many of them not only don't use it but

don't recognize it, though maybe a few are camouflagged users as

someone else suggested.

    Anymore I can use positive anymore myself (I didn't used to),

though not very productively. Maybe linguists are the prime examples

of adult syntactic change?!

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:24:14 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps



Anglepoise, s.v. angle in the SOD: "(proprietary name for) a type if

swivelled reading -lamp with a sprung and jointed arm" -- whatever that

means. I visualize something like the architect's or drafting lamps we use

in the US that can be clipped onto a drawing board and that stay in any

position you place them.





                     //\\

                    //  \\

                  _//___\\_________

                 /-----------------------/

                   \\___________________

                   / \\                   /|

                  /                    / |

                 /____________________/ |

                 | |                   |  |

                 | |                   |  |

                 |                    |



Dennis

_______



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:28:27 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: need + past participle



On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



  This originates, I believe, in pennsylvania and is confined to midland

  speech and perhaps to south midland since it is not heard in the southern

  half of Iowa (north midland).

  Someone who is better versed in regional dialectology than I can probably

  give a definitive answer. Am surprised that none such have appeared as yet.

 

  Bob Wachal



Tom Murray, Beth Simon and I have collected three kinds of data on this.

One was an informal query that went out over internet (ADS-L, LINGUIST

and others) about fourteen months ago. We got almost 20 responses, three

from Scotland, one from northern ireland, 6 from Pennsylvania, one from

upstate NY, 2 from Ohio, one each from w. New York, s. Indiana, c. Ill.,

c. Idaho, 2 from Utah.



I collected 200 evaluative responses (mostly students) in the n. half of

Ill.; the distribution pretty much reflects Roger Shuys old (PADS 1962)

northern-midland division.



Murray collected over 5000 evaluative reponses throughout LANCS and LAUM

territory,

plus Kansas and Missouri. His findings also tend to reinforce the old

northern-midland boundaries drawn from linguistic atlas data; the

"needs" construction with past participle distributes like tradtional

midland diagnostic items (e.g., "bucket" or _greasy_ as [grizi]).



Tom's data don't fit with your obersvationthat this does not occur in s.

Iowa. If your experience is mostly confined to Iowa city, that would be

one explanation; university towns, even those in a largely rural

settings, often do not reflect everything that is going on, even if you

begin to get the impression that you are hearing a lot of vernacular.

I lived in macomb for 30 years before I knew that some people in this

area used aspectual "done."



I think it also safe to say that the farther south in Iowa you go, the

morelikely you will be to hear it, if you make some allowances for the

uniqueness of some individual communities.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:36:36 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



Hmm. Maybe "ambrosia" is a creolism?

    Natalie and Peter's comments reminded me that ambrosia in

Jamaica commonly refers to just fresh orange and grated coconut.

Though I searched my Caribbean cookbooks and drew a blank on the name,

one of them turned up "Angel Food" for the same dish (Norma Benghiat's

admirable 'Traditional Jamaican Cookery', which is otherwise very

true-to-life). Never heard that term.

    Incidentally, surely coconut id a fruit?! (though technically

it is also a seed-- one of the largest, I guess!)

    --peter patrick

    georgetown u.

O



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:38:56 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: need + participle



My posting in reply to Bob Wachal pretty much answers the queries

below. I think I forgot to mention, however, that BEth also collected

DARE citations and found 10 (the DARE QR does not invite this response).

5 in Pennsylvania, one in w.Va., 1 in so. Ohio, 1 in w. Tenn., 1 in

Louisiana,

1 in Idaho. With rare exceptions, this feature distributes itself like

most midland features. Compare, for example, the DARE map for the

low-back vowel merger (reproduced in Wolfram's book on American dialects).



Tim Frazer







On Tue, 4 Apr 1995, Bruce Gelder wrote:







  Anton Sherwood reports:

 

   My parents (natives of Indiana) reported hearing "the car needs washed"

   when they moved from Illinois to Pittsburgh.

 

  and Cathy Bodin asks:

 

   Does anyone have an idea of the geographical extension of this phrase,

   i.e. "this needs washed" instead of "this needs being washed" or "it

   needs a washing?"

       Is it limited to Pennsylvania?

 

  I had claimed in my original posting that one of the three people I know

  who use the construction consistently is from Salt Lake City. I remember

  now that he's actually originally from Pennsylvania (western, I think--but

  I'm not certain), so that makes three Pennsylvania sources so far. Is

  it very widespread there?

 

  Also, we already have reports of two sources in Ohio, plus I received E-mail

  from someone stating that his mother from Akron used the "needs washed"

  construction (his father, from Stowe, OH, used the "needs washing"

  construction). So that makes three sources in Ohio so far, two of

  which are from Akron.

 

  Am I to assume from this that this is a fairly common construction between

  Akron and Pittsburgh? Is it the norm?

 

  Also, if there's anyone out there from Montana, is it also used there with

  any regularity? Or is it just a quirk in my friend's case?

 

  Incidentally, Cathy, I'm unfamiliar with the "this needs being washed"

  construction. It's not a part of my dialect. I always use the infinitive

  (i.e. "this needs to be washed"). And "it needs a washing" is something I

  hear at times, but it's not productive for me.

 

  --Bruce Gelder

  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:41:29 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



I'm pretty certain I've heard "nouned", "noun8ing" in linguistic

discussion before. Though as proper nouns are already nouns (not to

mention words), that doesn't quite address the case. I don't know what

does. My sense of the verb "coin", as applied to words, excludes

proper names, so maybe "coining a noun from a proper name" would work.

(The original idea being that coins are interchangeable, as are common

but not proper nouns?)

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:40:19 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



I could have sworn there was a label for these, but when I checked my copy of

Joseph Williams's "Origins of the English Language", which features a nice

discussion of nouns derived from proper names (pp. 136-8), he calls them...yup,

nouns (or words) derived from proper names (names for places as well as people,

of course--sodomy and spartan and hamburger alongside watt and Machiavellian.

"Denominatives" doesn't work (even if we allowed for denominative nouns), be-

cause that doesn't single out PROPER names as sources.

        Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:23:48 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: names to nouns



not eponyms?



--

Dennis



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:36:09 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



Wouldn't Machiavelli and Hamburg be the eponyms of 'Machiavellian' and 'ham-

burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being kin

to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here.  Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 10:44:56 -0700

From:  Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"



Cathy:

Growing up in mid Indiana in the 50's and 60's, I had never heard the term

until my (ex)husband's mother, from southern Indiana, used it with all

domestic tasks. My ex used it, too, but only for domestic stuff, e.g.,

the baby needs changed, the dishes need washed.

Gail



_______________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall              stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

English, GN-30             (206) 685-2384

University of Washington        Seattle WA 98195



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 12:55:41 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re[2]: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"



   I am from Kansas where "this needs washed" is the way we said it.

   I've been in Missouri for the last 11+ years and I am familiar with

   "this needs washed" and with "it needs a washing."



   Randy Roberts

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  4/3/95 11:54 PM





Does anyone have an idea of the geographical extension of this phrase,

i.e. "this needs washed" instead of "this needs being washed" or "it

needs a washing?"

    Is it limited to Pennsylvania?     --Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 11:52:39 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



On Tue, 4 Apr 1995 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU wrote:

 

  Terry's comment and the previous listings suggest to me that what's happened to

  "Gesundheit" and "Bitte!" are similar: both get anglicized in Cinn. I wonder if

  the famed anti-german sentiment which Mencken records is responsible: the same

  process which around WWI produced "liberty cabbage" for Sauerkraut &c.

  calqued "Bitte!" to please and replaced "Gesundheit"with "Bless you!"

 

  David Bergdahl     Ohio University/Athens

  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

 



Hmm! Interesting observation. Obviously this didn't happen everywhere,

since "Gesundheit!" is alive and well in many places. I wonder if

"Gesundheit" tended to be replaced with "Bless you!" precisely in those

areas (like Cincinnati) where there was a large German-speaking population

up until WWI and where the non-German population was therefore more aware

of the word's origin. Anybody from Milwaukee want to contribute to this

thread?



This hypothesis wouldn't account for New York's prevalent "Bless you!"

but perhaps here the change could have occurred during WWII and be

accounted for by anti-German feeling among NYC's large Jewish population.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 09:19:24 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: need + participle



re: needs + past participle





The construction is so common here in Western PA that it has appeared in both

newspaper ads and in headlines. I've been told that some of the earliest

settlers in this area were Scottish, and I believe that Trudgill mentions this

construction and calls it part of Scottish Standard English.





bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 14:25:01 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: names to nouns



 Wouldn't Machiavelli and Hamburg be the eponyms of 'Machiavellian' and 'ham-

 burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being kin

 to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here.  Larry



True, and so eponym is always defined, but the SOD defines eponymy as "the

practice of explaining names of peoples, places, etc., by referring them to

the name of a historical or mythical person." So I would be tempted to say

that Frankenstein, in "I've created a Frankenstein," is an eponym, an

example of eponymy. Perhaps what I am naming is an eponymonym.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 23:24:04 BST

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"



It includes Scotland, and not just OPennsylvania!

Maik Gibson



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: The Elusive New England Thick Shake



ok, i wasn't going to get into this one but...



when i moved to western mass (amherst), it was explained to me that a

milkshake didn't have ice cream and a frappe did. now, the

informants were from eastern mass., but they were backed up by the

menu at a restaurant i frequented in hadley. (who knows where the

menu writer was from.)



i loved that menu because it translated for whomever doesn't know

what a frappe is in a sort of (what i think of as typical) new

england isolationist way:



Frappes (Cabinets)...............2.95



incidentally, if you want a good frappe, go to herrell's in

northampton. god, this string is making me homesick. if only i

could get someone to mail me a scoop of malted vanilla.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Apr 1995 19:40:24 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: ambrosia



On Mon, 3 Apr 1995, Dan Alford wrote:



  I can attest to 'ambrosia' during 50s/60s church dinners in LA. But I have

  this phrase 'Hawaiian Delight' running around in some parallel universe.

 

                              -- Moonhawk (%- )

     "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

     the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                   -- McCartney/Lennon 

 

 Funny, I always thought ambrosia was the solid form of nectar of the gods.

I was never aquainted with the human equivalent until adulthood; I grew up

in Canada and it just wasn't part of the Canadian culinary vocabulary. I

might have liked it as a child, but as an adult I couldn't see what the

fuss was all about.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: creme soda



  I had exactly the opposite experience after moving to New England. I bought a

  can of creme soda began to drink it, and yccch, what is this stuff? How can

  anyone drink it? To me red pop in the form of Barq's Creme soda is the real

  thing because that's my frame of reference. I'm surprised you couldn't find

  Vernor's since that brand of soft drink was sold in southern Ohio. I remember

  Vernor's ginger ale.--Yvette



just to give this a broader perspective, in south africa, creme soda

is BRIGHT green (and carries warnings about the coloring agent--

tartrazine(sp?)). i suspect it glows in the dark. i'm afraid to

taste it, but hear it's sweeeeeeeeeet.



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Apr 1995 to 4 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 27 messages totalling 698 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. s'mores and thousand island dressing (3)

 2. Gesundheit!

 3. Cigarette brands. Help, please! (6)

 4. ambrosia

 5. names to nouns (7)

 6. Cigs

 7. Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"

 8. M.V.P. versus M.O.P. (2)

 9. FW: Cigarette brands. Help, please!

 10. zinc

 11. Harassment

 12. A moment's window of opportunity: ADS at MLA

 13. Anglepoise lamp



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: s'mores and thousand island dressing



  smores--are a mythical treat said to be made by girl scouts and other

  campers who take a graham cracker and load it up with peanut butter, some

  marshmallow glop, and a Hershey bar and then heat the pile of yuk until the

  chocolate melts.



i've never heard of peanut butter on a s'more (note the apostrophe),

and i was a girl scout for way too long (into high school, even).

real s'mores are not made with marshmallow glop, but with a toasted

marshmallow--it's a campfire treat, though people try to recreate the

effect (lamely, i say) at home.



if the etymology isn't transparent to you: it's   some more (because

that's what you'll eat, even after you've got a tummy ache).





now, if you've gotten this far, could you tell me if "thousand island

dressing" comes from the thousand islands in new york? the american

heritage says "possibly." a bottle i saw here recently had a picture

of a woman hula-ing on the label, which amused me, since i think of

the thousand islands as a place where you need a sweater.



food seems to be our major concern around here.

lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 00:50:03 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



 . I wonder if

 the famed anti-german sentiment which Mencken records is responsible: the

same

 process which around WWI produced "liberty cabbage" for Sauerkraut &c.

 calqued "Bitte!" to please and replaced "Gesundheit"with "Bless you!"

 

 David Bergdahl     Ohio University/Athens

 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



INTERESTING! I forgot about that, but it seems like a likely possibility.



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:21:40 +0300

From:  Matti Pitk{l{  mp54978[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTA.FI 

Subject: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



Dear ADS-L subscribers:



I am a student in the department of translatology in the University of

Tampere, Finland. I am currrently preparing a "reference-list" of

cigarette brands sold in the USA as my term paper for a course called

"Power, Pride & Politics - American English 2". For the course all

students must prepare a list of terms, names, vocabulary (...) in some

spesific area (...) of American English. I chose to make a list of

cigarette brands, American or imported, that can be purchased in the USA=

,

including in the list information about the social, ethnic, age-related,=



sex-related, class-related or any other connotations or meanings that

American people connect with these brands.

For this I ask your help. What brands are there? Are there brands that=



carry special meanings, and which brands could be seen as "neutral" -

suitable for any smoker?



Here is a list of some brands that I have found in American newspaper

and magazine advertisements, some of them are American, some British (GB=

),

some international or of unknown origin (?):



Prince

Marlboro

Dunhill (GB)

Rothmans (GB)

Basic

Montclair

Kool

Camel

Chesterfield

Pall Mall

Winston

Salem

Lucky Strike

Philip Morris

John Player Special (GB)

Kent

Benson & Hedges (GB)

Newport

Silk Cut (?)

Barclay (?)

Boston (?)

Colt (?)

Cartier (?)

L&M (?)

Death (?)

Peter Stuyvesant (?)

YSL, Yves Saint-Laurent (?)

Gitanes (French)

Gauloises (French)



--

Mr. Matti Pitkala   * ...a lugly whizzling tournedos, the Boraborayel=

lers,

mp54978[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uta.fi    *   blohablasting tegolhuts up to tetties and ru=

ching

           *   sleets of the coppeehouses, playing ragnowro=

ck...

           *        - James Joyce: Finnegans Wake



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: ambrosia



well, despite so many people not recognizing the word "ambrosia",

that's the only thing i've ever heard that concoction called in

upstate ny & illinois.



that and jello salad are what my friends and i call "protestant soul

food." (a friend who grew up methodist/lutheran calls it "the food

of my people", so that's how the whole thing got started.)



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 07:56:00 -0400

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



 Wouldn't Machiavelli and Hamburg be the eponyms of 'Machiavellian' and 'ham-

 burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being kin

 to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here.  Larry



Machiavelli would by the eponym as the source for "Machiavellian," but

"hamburger" would be a toponym, derived _from_ the name of a place.



David



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:33:16 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: s'mores and thousand island dressing



Lynne Murphy writes (after agreeing with the majority sentiment that s'mores

must contain real fire-roasted marshmallows [gee, sounds almost trendy that

way] and not fluff glop and NO peanut butter):



 now, if you've gotten this far, could you tell me if "thousand island

 dressing" comes from the thousand islands in new york? the american

 heritage says "possibly." a bottle i saw here recently had a picture

 of a woman hula-ing on the label, which amused me, since i think of

 the thousand islands as a place where you need a sweater.



That IS quite an image, a line of fisherman-sweater- and parka-wearing

inhabitants of the St. Lawrence seaway area with grass skirts dancing the

hula. I'm quite confident that even if the connection between the dressing

and the 1000 Islands of the St. Lawrence is embellished by myth, any

connection with that OTHER archipelago can only be a recent folk etymology

(or advertising ploy: grass skirts might be deemed to sell better than

anoraks).



Larry

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:21:02 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Cigs



Interesting project. I stopped smoking cigarettes so long ago that I

have no feel for the data requested. However, I will make one

suggestion: don't forget the generics, the house-brand, usually much

less expensive, cigarttes sold by super markets, etc.



Also, I remain interested in collecting text (and translation plus

commentary) of warning labels placed on all tobacco products anywhere

in the world. I would also like to have actual copies of such

warning labels, on the wwrapper, if possible.



S-mail to:



Bethany K. Dumas

English Dept./U of Tennessee

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 09:54:47 EDT

From:  Bruce Southard  ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



I've been off the list a while and have just come upon the names to

nouns discussion, so I hope I'm not repeating something already

presented. One possible term for the process of a name becoming a common

noun is _antonomasia_. Most of the sources I've looked at restrict the

term to use of a name as a generic, eg. calling someone a "Romeo" or a

"Scrooge," though I have dim recollections of seeing in print

"antonomasia" being used to describe the use of "coke" as "soft drink"

or "levis" as "denim pants." The Pyles/Algeo _Origins_ gives the term

_commonization_ for the "kind of functional shift" that produced

_lynch_, _boycott_, and _sandwich_.



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-328-6041

919-328-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:04:19 -0400

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Tom Murray's example "this needs washed"



Gail's note prompts me to recall a strange pronunciation my stepmother, whose

family came from Kentucky originally (to Indiana), gave to the kitchen item

where dishes are washed. She consistently called it the "zinc" - which always

struck me as odd, but I believe I have heard it a few other times away from

Indiana (usually in a southerly direction). How widespread is that?

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:17:54 -0400

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



Matti:

   At least a couple of brands not on your original list, I think, are the

brand I happen to smoke, Viceroy, and its cousin, Raleigh, the origin of which

is fairly obvious. (I'm not sure, but did you have Virginia Slims, which are

aimed specifically through their advertising at women?)

   I don't know if you want to get into obsolete brands or not, but, from my

misspent youth, I recall such brands as Wings, Old Gold, Parliament (which may

still be around? As our Tareytons, known as Herbert Tareytons in my youthful

heydays - were they on your list?), Marvels, and probably many more I can't

recall at this particular moment. I don't think "positioning" had become a part

of advertising parlance back then, so they were all aimed at male smokers of

whatever age or socio-economic background generally, and only secondarily at

women, etc.

   I would definitely stay away from any brand called "Death" (on your list)

just on general principle, just as I would not fly on Just Short of the Runway

Airlines!

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 10:40:39 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



  burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being kin

  to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here. Larry

 

  Machiavelli would by the eponym as the source for "Machiavellian," but

  "hamburger" would be a toponym, derived _from_ the name of a place.

  David



Is there also a converse for "namesake"? I've wondered about that before.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:42:23 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



Jerry NMN Miller writes (inter alia):



   I would definitely stay away from any brand called "Death" (on your list)

just on general principle, just as I would not fly on Just Short of the Runway

Airlines!

__________________              jmiller



I was wondering about Death brand cigs too; perhaps the tobacco companies are

taking a new tack on pre-empting false advertising lawsuits. But I like that

airlines company as well. It reminds me of the routine Monty Python used to

have (or some other group--does anyone recall it?) that played off the old

"With a name like Smuckers it HAS to be good", creating e.g. Vomit brand

canned ham or Dead Cat brand aerosol (those weren't the original examples, but

should give you the idea): "With a name like ____, it has to be absolutely

fanTAStic!"



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 08:53:22 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



It's been a long time since I was a smoker, so somebody please correct me

if I'm now mistaken--but as far as I know, Peter Stuyvesant cigarettes

are unknown in the U.S. I think they're made in the Netherlands.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: s'mores and thousand island dressing



in response to larry horn's message:



  Lynne Murphy writes (after agreeing with the majority sentiment that s'mores

  must contain real fire-roasted marshmallows [gee, sounds almost trendy that

  way] and not fluff glop and NO peanut butter):



sorry about all those notes from me today. you may have noticed that

they were sent over a week ago--they apparently were lost in e-mail

limbo somewhere.



  That IS quite an image, a line of fisherman-sweater- and parka-wearing

  inhabitants of the St. Lawrence seaway area with grass skirts dancing the

  hula. I'm quite confident that even if the connection between the dressing

  and the 1000 Islands of the St. Lawrence is embellished by myth, any

  connection with that OTHER archipelago can only be a recent folk etymology

  (or advertising ploy: grass skirts might be deemed to sell better than

  anoraks).



my favorite advertising ploy (at the same restaurant) was a

poster of a postcard from hawaii to advertise their "hawaiian burger"

(it has a slice of pineapple). apparently, it never occured to the

ad people that a postmark from hawaii would not be in afrikaans (the

rest of the ad was in english).



excuse me if this is off-topic--i've come to think of this as the

food-attitudes list. i'll try to control myself from here on out.

(i'll be better behaved after dinner).



lynne



--------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:08:07 -0400

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



 I've been off the list a while and have just come upon the names to

 nouns discussion, so I hope I'm not repeating something already

 presented. One possible term for the process of a name becoming a common

 noun is _antonomasia_. Most of the sources I've looked at restrict the

 term to use of a name as a generic, eg. calling someone a "Romeo" or a

 "Scrooge," though I have dim recollections of seeing in print

 "antonomasia" being used to describe the use of "coke" as "soft drink"

 or "levis" as "denim pants." The Pyles/Algeo _Origins_ gives the term

 _commonization_ for the "kind of functional shift" that produced

 _lynch_, _boycott_, and _sandwich_.

 

 Bruce Southard

 English Department

 East Carolina University

 ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

 ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

 919-328-6041

 919-328-4889 (FAX)



Antonomasia is also a term for using a substitute title for a name: Mr.

President, Your Honor, Governor, Your Grace, etc. It does also apply to

using a personal name to single out someone or something as a "type": You

Casanova, you, She's a real selfish Sandy, What a Dumbo, She's a regular

Einstein.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 12:53:09 -0400

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



   burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being

   kin

   to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here. Larry

  

   Machiavelli would by the eponym as the source for "Machiavellian," but

   "hamburger" would be a toponym, derived _from_ the name of a place.

   David

 

 Is there also a converse for "namesake"? I've wondered about that before.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I'm not sure what you mean by "converse." When someone or something is

given a name for "the name's sake," even when that name is an eponym or

toponym, it is still a "namesake" naming: Nevada Smith, "in a New York

minute," Pecos Bill, Tex Ritter.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:54:20 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: M.V.P. versus M.O.P.



   During the recently concluded NCAA basketball finals I noticed that

   the CBS sports commentators (Billy Packer, etal.) were using M.O.P.

   and Most Outstanding Player rather than the traditional term M.V.P.

   or Most Valuable Player. In baseball, at least, M.V.P. has been used

   consistently since the 1920s. Does anyone know if M.O.P. has been in

   use before this year's NCAA tournament? It has the ring of a

   Vitaleism. (Dick Vitale of ESPN).



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:22:33 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



 

   Wouldn't Machiavelli and Hamburg be the eponyms of 'Machiavellian' and 'ham-

   burger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym' as being

 kin to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what we need here.

  Larry

 

Perhaps in ignorance I have tended to use 'eponym' to refer to the noun

derived from the name. In fact, the second entry in AHD, 3rd, states that

an eponym is "A name of a drug, structure, or disease based on or derived

from the name of a person." The eytmology, I would suggest, supports

that latter usage over the first, that is epi + onoma, after named. The

thing is named after the person, hence is an epi onoma or eponym.



Terry





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:54:09 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: M.V.P. versus M.O.P.



I noticed the M.O.P. too, but my impression wasn't that it was a (Dick)

"Vitaleism" (no way to spell that, is there?), but more likely an official

NCAA designation. There has always been the dispute about "MVP" as a designa-

tion: does it really mean most VALUABLE, or is it just another way of saying

BEST, and if the former, should it really go to someone like Andre Dawson of

the '87 Cubs, who contributed valiantly to what turned out to be their last

place finish? Presumably M.O.P. is a way to avoid those issues, although I

imagine it will usually go to a member of the winning team. (But Dollar Bill

Bradley won it, under whatever name, when he led his Princeton team to a third

place finish in the NCAA tournament a while back.)

       Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 14:55:04 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



  misspent youth, I recall such brands as Wings, Old Gold, Parliament (which may

  still be around? As our Tareytons, known as Herbert Tareytons in my youthful



Parliaments are definitely still around. A friend of mine smokes them.



My guess is that Marlboro Lights are probably the most popular cigarettes

among all smokers. They're what I would call the "typical" cigarette in

the U.S. these days.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:18:27 EDT

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



Yes, Parliaments are still around--I saw someone buying them recently.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 13:43:00 PDT

From:  Rose Wilcox  RWILC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FAST.DOT.STATE.AZ.US 

Subject: FW: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



 I chose to make a list of

 cigarette brands, American or imported, that can be purchased in the USA=

 including in the list information about the social, ethnic, age-related,=

 sex-related, class-related or any other connotations or meanings that

 American people connect with these brands.

 For this I ask your help. What brands are there? Are there brands that=

 carry special meanings, and which brands could be seen as "neutral" -

 suitable for any smoker?



You don't mention More on your list. I used to smoke More. I

found that very few people smoked them, especially Menthols,

so I didn't have to share them very often. In fact, most people,

even the ones who most commonly "bummed" all of there

cigarettes, would turn them down when offered. They are long

cigarettes with dark brown paper. I learned to smoke them

when I was 17 which was 20 years ago, from my then-current

boyfriend who was black, and I was white. Other than that I

don't know if there are any connotations of class, etc.

I saw an identical cigarette in France; it was named "Time"

rather than "More".

 Prince   don't know anything about

 Marlboro  I think this would be a working class cigarette, mostly male

I

Dunhill (GB)  don't know, never seen em

Rothmans (GB)  don't know, never seen em

Basic  don't know - is it a cheapie?

Montclair   don't know, sounds middle class doesn't it...

Kool  This may be another working class brand, not as common as Marlboro

Camel  I'd say definitely a working class brand, mostly male

Chesterfield   don't know

Pall Mall  don't know

Winston  don't know

Salem  Sort of like Kool

Lucky Strike  I'd guess, working class

Philip Morris  don't know

John Player Special (GB  don't know

Kent  don't know -- maybe middle class?

Benson & Hedges (GB)  they do sell this in America - I think it is a more

Middle Class cig

Newport  I think this is a middle class cig...

Silk Cut (?)  never seen em

Barclay (?)  I see this, but don't have a feeling about them

Boston (?)   never seen em

Colt (?)  never seen em

Cartier (?)   never seen em

L&M (?)  don't know, sounds familiar

Death (?)  They sell these at used tape stores and head shops, they're hip,

young

           rebellious people smoke them

Peter Stuyvesant (?)  don't know, maybe middle class?

YSL, Yves Saint-Laurent (?)  never seen em

Gitanes (French)  never seen em

Gauloises (French)  never seen em



There are several female-oriented brands in America, but I'm not

aware of them currently.

I feel more sure of working class brands than middle class, I guess.

I haven't smoked for about 4 and 1/2 years, so I haven't kept track

of styles....

Good luck!

******

Rosie (NorthCrowe)

rwilc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fast.dot.state.az.us

ncrowe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]primenet.com

"Unless I accept my virtues, I most certainly will be overwhelmed by my

faults."

Robert G. Coleman



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 15:19:52 -0600

From:  Tom Klingler  klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



"Zinc" reaches pretty far south--it's quite common in New Orleans.

******************************************************************************

Tom Klingler

Assistant Professor

Department of French and Italian

Tulane University

New Orleans, LA 70118

(504) 862-3120 (office)

(504) 865-8020

Email: klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:19:28 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Harassment



Sexual Harassment has been a hot topic in the business sector for some

time now. I have always heard Harassment pronounced /ha ras mEnt/ in the

NW, in Indiana, and lately in Illinois in our section meetings about the

topic.



However, I heard it pronounced /hair Is mEntNT/ on CNN Headline news the

other day by an American announcer. I recollect having heard it

pronounced this way by British colleagues as well back in France.



Are their regional variants of this word in the US? How about in the UK,

English-speaking Canada, Australia, etc?



Jeff Allen



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:12:42 -0400

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: A moment's window of opportunity: ADS at MLA



If you would like to be on the program of the Annual Meeting of the Modern

Language Association in Chicago this December; indeed, if you would like to

organize an entire program (1 hour 15 min); if it has something to do with

the fields of interest of the American Dialect Society (=American English,

language variation); if you are a dues-paid current member of MLA;



and if you can move very fast -



let me know by midnite Thursday, April 6.



There's room in the MLA program for one session sponsored by ADS. In past

years, we've always had some members who wanted to be in that session; this

year, nary a one. And it's true that our independent sessions are much more

congenial. But this is our opportunity to enlighten and delight the MLA mob!

And a place on the MLA program isn't easy to get.



If nobody's interested, so be it. MLA will be happy to reclaim the space. But

if you have something lurking in the back of your mind - let me know now.

Think about it - quickly!

 Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 19:09:24 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



  I'm not sure what you mean by "converse." When someone or something is

  given a name for "the name's sake," even when that name is an eponym or

  toponym, it is still a "namesake" naming: Nevada Smith, "in a New York

  minute," Pecos Bill, Tex Ritter.



If Little George is named for Uncle George, Little George is Uncle

George's namesake. Is Uncle George Little George's eponym? Say Little

George doesn't meet Uncle George until he's ten years old. When they

meet, you might say to Uncle George, "I'm happy to introduce you to your

namesake." Would you say to Little George, "I'm happy to introduce you

to your eponym"?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 22:22:42 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Anglepoise lamp



From:

Margaret Moore. _Understanding British English_ "adjustable desk lamp."



Norman Moss.  _British/American Language Dictionary_ "an adjustable desk

      lamp with a long arm. Originally a trade name."



Norman Schur. _British English A to Zed_ "_approx_. adjustable table lamp.

      Originally a trademark, now becoming generic. The term describes

      a table lamp with a base of a series of hinged springs and

      counter-weights that adjust the height, beam direction, and so

      on."

Hope that helps.

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Apr 1995 to 5 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 23 messages totalling 551 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. with a name like ADS-L, it had better be interesting

 2. needs + washed

 3. Harassment pron

 4. Sluggish Listserv

 5. Bounced Mail

 6. definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps

 7. Harassment (3)

 8. "the royal I" ??????????? (3)

 9. P of W's English

 10. churros

 11. Ambrosia!

 12. names to nouns

 13. Ambrosia? (2)

 14. zinc (2)

 15. harassment

 16. Cigarette brands. Help, please!

 17. s'mores, smoores, semurs



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Apr 1995 21:41:24 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: with a name like ADS-L, it had better be interesting



Death Cigarettes remind Larry Horn

  of the routine Monty Python used to

  have (or some other group--does anyone recall it?) that played off the old

  "With a name like Smuckers it HAS to be good", creating e.g. Vomit brand

  canned ham or Dead Cat brand aerosol . . .



SNL, I believe; I can hear Jane Curtin delivering the pitch.



    = =

Jerry Miller's stepmother called a kitchen sink a "zinc".

Isn't that what Germans call the counter?



    = =

Natalie Maynor asks,

  Is there also a converse for "namesake"? I've wondered about that before.



Converse? I've always thought of it as symmetric.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 17:55:00 +1300

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: needs + washed



Scots Syntax



The use of a past participle after need, want



Yer lugs needs washed.      Your ears need washing/ to be washed

Yon wants his lugs skelped.   He needs his ears to be slapped.

Wha wants out?          Who wants to get out?



and double modals



Aa micht cud dae it.       I might be able to do it.



as discussed in the last few days are normal Scots grammar and so could

be expected anywhere where there was substantial Scots or Ulster Scots

settlement.



Anymore is I believe an Ulster feature, whether originally from Scotland

or not I don't know. There are of course many, many Scots features in American

dialects although no real interest seems to be taken by Anglophones in Scots.



George Halliday  HallidayG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]schools.minedu.govt.nz 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 03:13:14 EDT

From:  kim mckinzey  74525.1614[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Harassment pron



There seems to be a great division re ha RAS ment vs. HA res ment that is

non-regional. See the usage note in American Heritage 3rd. If the question was

the pron HA res ment vs. Hair es ment, that's regional to just about where you

are, Jeff, in the upper midwest.



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 06:16:56 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Sluggish Listserv



It's sad when the listserv is so sluggish that the digest version of ADS-L

that I use for the daily archives (and which is sent out around midnight)

still hasn't gotten here by 6:15 a.m. If it doesn't come within the next

hour or so, it may be a couple of days before I get it into its proper place

in the ftp, gopher, and web archives. Meanwhile, maybe I'll give the UGA

system some very hard kicks while I'm in Athens -- which is where I'm heading

in a little while. Am looking forwarding to seeing some of you there.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 06:19:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Wed, 5 Apr 1995 21:09:23 -0400

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  0266 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (57 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:00:20 -0700

  From: dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu (Dan Alford)

  Subject: Subject: Subject: With a name like _________ ...

 

     Date:     Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:42:23 EDT

     Comments:   Resent-From: Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YaleVM.CIS.Yale.edu 

     Comments:   Originally-From: "Jerry (NMN) Miller"

             miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

     From: Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

     Subject:   Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!

 

     Jerry NMN Miller writes (inter alia):

 

        I would definitely stay away from any brand called "Death" (on your list)

     just on general principle, just as I would not fly on Just Short of the Runway

     Airlines!

     __________________              jmiller

 

     I was wondering about Death brand cigs too; perhaps the tobacco companies are

     taking a new tack on pre-empting false advertising lawsuits. But I like that

     airlines company as well. It reminds me of the routine Monty Python used to

     have (or some other group--does anyone recall it?) that played off the old

     "With a name like Smuckers it HAS to be good", creating e.g. Vomit brand

     canned ham or Dead Cat brand aerosol (those weren't the original examples, but

     should give you the idea): "With a name like ____, it has to be absolutely

     fanTAStic!"

 

     Larry

 

  If I remember correctly, it was SNL, Saturday Night Live, that begain in their

  faux-commercials the takeoffs: "With a name like 'Mangled Baby Ducklings', it

  has to be good."

 

  Vis-a-vis the original thread, shall we for the sake of commercial propriety

  ignore the various "comic" brand of cigarettes such as "Camel Shit" and

  "Bull Shit" that can be found in Montana and novelty stores (sic)?

 

                             -- Moonhawk (%- )

     "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

     the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:24:52 +0000

From:  "dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]popserver.essex.ac.uk..."  dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: definition/variation request: Anglepoise lamps



I thought that an Anglepoise lamp was a tall, skinny, directional reading

lamp that stands on a desk or table. Anglepoise is the brand name, no?



Dave Britain

Essex University.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:16:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Harassment



The alternatives to harass reflect euphemistic practices. harASS (and

harASSment) sound too much like HER ASS; HARassment (and HARass) have

increased. (-ment follows regular rules depending on stress on the

bisyllabic) Note the similar use of Uranus. urAnus sounded too much like YOUR

ANUS, so (following Sagan's lead in Cosmos) a URanus pronunciation became more

popular than before. I treat Uranus in more detail in a Maledicta article of a

few years back.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:58:33 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: "the royal I" ???????????



Did anyone else hear Jack Ford, the legal analyst on the Today show say

this yesterday? I realize that some lawyers are full of you-know-what,

but surely this is too much. He was referring to the possibility that

someone meant to inclde an underling's actions when he said 'I'.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 09:44:46 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Harassment



Dennis P. writes:

_____________________

The alternatives to harass reflect euphemistic practices. harASS (and

harASSment) sound too much like HER ASS; HARassment (and HARass) have

increased. (-ment follows regular rules depending on stress on the

bisyllabic) Note the similar use of Uranus. urAnus sounded too much like YOUR

ANUS, so (following Sagan's lead in Cosmos) a URanus pronunciation became more

popular than before. I treat Uranus in more detail in a Maledicta article of a

few years back.

____________________

Some linguists sitting in on Noam Chomsky's celebrated exposition of the post-

Sound Pattern of English theory of phonology during the 1966 LSA Linguistic

Institute (he taught one phonology seminar and one syntax (post-Aspects)

seminar, both very well attended) still remember the day he chose to illustrate

stress rules by citing (several times in succession) the pair

       "CARESS/HARASS"

with the latter (like the former) receiving final stress. It was never clear

whether he anticipated the snickers from the audience; if so, it would con-

stitute one of the few occasions on which Chomsky employed humor in a lecture

on any topic. (As Fritz Newmeyer recalls, students in those days would bring

up examples of the form "Gwendolyn persuaded Murgatroyd to be easy to seduce"

and Chomsky would write on the board "Mary persuaded John to be easy to

please".)

  On the euphemistic frontal stressing of the planet, though, the alternative

--replacing "Your Anus" with "Urinous"--doesn't completely solve the problem.



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:26:12 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: P of W's English



A student looking in the London Times as part of an assignment in my HEL

class noted this morning that part of the King's (read Prince of Wales')

English is "shrunkled" (i. e., "shrunken"). I'm glad we can use that word.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:27:50 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: churros



 Wayne Glowka's description of American churros were interesting but

 definitely different from Spain's--a Spanish churro is a fried light

 dough forced through a machine like a metallic pastry bag. The dough

 comes out shaped like a long continuous six-pointed star,

 and it breaks into pieces in the frier. It's usually sweetened and

 eaten with coffee at the national mid-morning coffee break.

                         --Cathy Bodin



Yeah, that's what they looked like, yeah. But they were dipped into thick

chocolate.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:29:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



   Am I the

   only one who remembers ambrosia as a mixture primarily of orange and

   grapefruit slices, with coconut and perhaps pineapple and/or some other

   fresh fruits (but here I get vague) but nothing else except maybe fruit

  "juice?

 

 That's my memory also. No jello.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



This is what my wife's grandmother serves here in Milledgeville on special

occasions and calls ambrosia. I like this stuff. But the other--I've said

enough.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:19:54 -0400

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



   I'm not sure what you mean by "converse." When someone or something is

   given a name for "the name's sake," even when that name is an eponym or

   toponym, it is still a "namesake" naming: Nevada Smith, "in a New York

   minute," Pecos Bill, Tex Ritter.

 

 If Little George is named for Uncle George, Little George is Uncle

 George's namesake. Is Uncle George Little George's eponym? Say Little

 George doesn't meet Uncle George until he's ten years old. When they

 meet, you might say to Uncle George, "I'm happy to introduce you to your

 namesake." Would you say to Little George, "I'm happy to introduce you

 to your eponym"?

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



No. An eponym would be the real or mythical person from which a country,

city, religion, time frame (Napoleonic), etc. gets its name. Little George

would be told that Uncle George is his patronym (if "Big" George were his

Dad's brother) or his metronym (matronym is also acceptable--if George

"Senior" were Mom's sibling). Little George may not think it's so

wonderful that we have names for _everything_, but the Nymites gleefully

have designations for just about every variation.



David (my praenomen, from the Hebrew "beloved" [yeah, right] and the

ancient king from whom I get my homonymic name--I am _his_ homonym--or

maybe we are heteronyms, having the same spelling but different

pronunciations and meanings [though I secretly like the "beloved" thing, it

wasn't in Mom's mind when she named me. She just _liked_ the name.])



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 08:18:07 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



 I'm beginning to wonder about Wayne Glowka and his ongoing diatribe

 against American basse cuisine. He has in recent days attacked:

 

     meat in general (I forget the details now, but the discussion

       of some flesh product was making him sick)

     s'mores in all their gooey varieties

     jello salads and ambrosia (sans jello -- only FROZEN coolwhip

       in my family, plus sliced bananas and apples, chopped

       walnuts and maraschino cherries, heaps of shredded

       coconut, and a fortifying splash of almond extract)

 

 What will be next? Chocolate chip sprinkled pigs-in-a-blanket? Dump

 cakes? Peanut butter and bologna sandwiches? Pork crackle? Fish

 sticks? Goosewhiz lunchtime spread? American cheese? Polish Boys?

 French hamburgers? Boston coolers? Ice-cold shandies? A six-pack of

 those "full-flavored" Buds? At what point does culinary patriotism

 kick in? What American foods *do* you eat, Wayne Glowka?

 

 Tim Behrend

 University of Auckland



Returning from a grant writing workshop last night in Charlotte, North

Carolina, I ate two MacDonald's cheeseburgers (my wife was not with me) and

sucked up a large chocolate shake through a collapsing straw as I listened

to National Public Radio. At lunch yesterday, I had black-eyed peas,

pickled beets, cole slaw, fried yellow squash, a yeast roll, and a cornmeal

muffin, washed down with sweet iced tea with lemon. I was too full for

Dutch apple cobbler.



A Texan, I would actually live on Mexican food if it were possible to do so.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:56:06 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: zinc



I've always read that this pronunciation was rife in the south midlands,

but didn't know it was also southern. Is it wide-spread in the south?

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 07:54:38 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: harassment



The pronunciation came up in my large language and Society class. I

explained that I thought the original pronunciation was her-ASS-ment, but

now HARE-us-ment was more commen now for taboo reasons. A young woman in

the back of the class shouted out "It should be her-ASS-ment because ass

is what it's all about!" I invited her to give us more quips but she

never spoke again, alas.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:42:28 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



I'm curious. Does _zinc_ in New Orleans refer to the sink or counter-

top or both? In France, since 1877, _zinc_ has been used to

refer to counter-tops (originally metal) in bars. Since N.O. society

was still in relation with France at that time (though, admittedly, this

link was already declining), I'm just wondering if there isn't

some semantic overlap going on that would facilitate the appearance of

_zinc_ in various acceptations.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 10:51:53 -0400

From:  bates  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



Natalie:

  I suspect you are right about the overall popularity of "lite" brands of

cigarettes (not just Marlboros). Interestingly enough, my doctor, a former

smoker himself, dissuaded me from using the "lite" brands by telling me he had

analyzed the contents of some lites and discovered they contained a significant

quantity of cocoa leaves, which are more toxic than tobacco. He suspects the

leaves are added to compensate for the loss of flavor from "lite-ning" the cigs.

                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:33:10 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Harassment



I'd be interested in having the complete cite to your Maledicta article

on Uranus, Dennis. Thanks, Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 12:18:58 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "the royal I" ???????????



I realize that my J.D. degree disqualifies me for a discussion of

the extent to which lawyers are full of you-know-what; nonetheless, I

want to comment on Bob Wachal's comment on Jack Ford, whose

comment I did NOT hear. I don't know the context in which Fod

apparently included an underling's actions in the word "I," but

the usage seems unexceptionable to me. Lawyers, like some

other people -- i.e., corporate executives -- are responsible often

both for acts they commit and also acts that they have office staff

commit. I can even imagine saying "I did thus-and-so" when I actually

had a research assistant do part of thus-and-so. Or am I missing the

point, Bob?



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 18:57:02 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



At 8:18 AM 4/6/95 -0400, Wayne Glowka wrote:



 A Texan, I would actually live on Mexican food if it were possible to do so.



Well they do it Mexico, presumably. I say give it a shot. I certainly

sympathize with the impulse.



Kate Catmull       kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:05:32 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: s'mores, smoores, semurs



It struck me from the beginning of the s'mores thread that something

was a bit wrong with a menu offering smores and Chinese chicken

salad as if they somehow belonged together. (Correct me if I'm

wrong, but I think the original question had the items yoked on the

same menu...) How many of those up-market, health-conscious,

yuppie-serving, californicating restaurants with coriander leaves

(selantro in the US?) garnishing every dish prepare the palate for a

Chinese/Thai chicken salad course by serving a graham cracker

(healthy, true) sodden with melted American imitation chocolate

(never mind the Nestle name) and marshmallows (whipped and sweetened

recycled window putty)?



Over the weekend I was doing some (east) Indian cooking and stumbled

across a type of dish called a Smoore. That reminded me of the

Javanese sweet stew called Semur. Doesn't the whole world

conjured by the menu item Chinese Chicken Salad fit much more easily

with savoury coconut milk stews than campfire confections?



Alternately, if this is a nouvelle cuisine chinoise place with a

dress code requiring cellular phones and silk shirts, it is also

possible that the s'mores in question represent a new "Fragrant

Harbor" version of the girlscout favorite substituting mandarin

pancakes or phoenix nests for the graham crackers, hoisin for the

chocolate, tofu for the marshmallow, all garnished with wan sui (I

think that's selantro in the States) and carrot roses. Now there's an

idea that makes the mouth water. Excuse me while I pop out for a beef

mince and cheese(?) pie at the student tuck shop.



yours in Auckland,

Tim Behrend



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 22:37:53 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "the royal I" ???????????



Bethany writes:



 I realize that my J.D. degree disqualifies me for a discussion of

 the extent to which lawyers are full of you-know-what; nonetheless, I

 want to comment on Bob Wachal's comment on Jack Ford, whose

 comment I did NOT hear. I don't know the context in which Fod

 apparently included an underling's actions in the word "I," but

 the usage seems unexceptionable to me. Lawyers, like some

 other people -- i.e., corporate executives -- are responsible often

 both for acts they commit and also acts that they have office staff

 commit. I can even imagine saying "I did thus-and-so" when I actually

 had a research assistant do part of thus-and-so. Or am I missing the

 point, Bob?



I'm pretty sure I saw the NBC Nightly News in question, and it wasn't Ford's

own use of "I" that was at issue, but his discussing (in his role of highly-

paid legal Simpsonian poobah) the use of "I" by one of the medical examiners

(Fung?) to describe the collection of material (blood) by an underling who was

evidently a novice. If I'm remembering correctly, it was the novitiate status

of this woman that led to a lively exchange in which Johnnie Cochran dismissed

her as a "rookie", the prosecution objected to that as a slur, and Judge Ito

reminded everyone that some rookies have been MVP's (as opposed to MOP's) in

their rookie year (thinking, perhaps, of Vida Blue or Fred Lynn, although he

wasn't asked for the exact precedents). I better stop before someone asks me

to move it all to the forensic.lx list.   --Larry



P.S. Oh, I forgot. The point. This would not constitute a royal "I" so much

as an "I" of concealment, hoping to get away with a possible misjudgment of

allowing a rookie, or novice, underling to (mis?)handle evidence in the trial

of the century. The royal "I" per se is more like a scientist using a first

person singular in appropriating the work of junior colleagues and graduate

students, I'd think. (Apocryphal as such tales always are.)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Apr 1995 to 6 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 42 messages totalling 940 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ambrosia! (2)

 2. needs + present participle (10)

 3. Joking Names for Airlines (3)

 4. Harassment (5)

 5. names to nouns

 6. Cigarette brands. Help, please! (2)

 7. joking names for Airlines (2)

 8. Ambrosia? (2)

 9. Pinto Beans (4)

 10. "the royal I" ??????????? (2)

 11. Southern Shuft (3)

 12. zinc

 13. Scots influence

 14. the Royal I

 15. Royal I

 16. corporations and dilbert (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:48:06 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



Peter McGraw isn't the only one on the list who remembers ambrosia as

a "salad" (seemed like a dessert to me) made with pieces of fresh fruit

(usually including canned mandarin orange slices), nuts (usually English

walnuts), marshmallows, coconut, and whipped cream (the real stuff).

The fruit had to include apples and bananas. No jello. Jello desserts

came along later, and most of the netters have written about jello desserts

rather than ambrosia. But if one allows the semantic range of terms to

spread, one can call all of them ambrosia. Oh, yes, I forgot pineapple.

I remember reacting in the 1970s to the use of 'ambrosia' to refer to

jello salads -- particularly bothered by use of the term for combinations

that did not include coconut. In the 1940s my mother and her friends would

get whole coconuts when possible and break them open and then grate the

meat. They would save the liquid from the coconut to use in a real

coconut cream pie. This was in the 1940s.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 01:30:18 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: needs + present participle



Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?

Greg Pulliam



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 01:35:47 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines



And what about twisting of airlines' names:



TWA = Tomorrow We Arrive

TTA(long-since-taken-over Trans Texas Airways) = Tree Tops Airways

Ozark Airlines (taken over by TWA) = Krazo Airlines



Others?     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 00:26:45 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Harassment



I think most of us have been at one or more of Chomsky's talks in which

we have offered sentences for him to elucidate. (One of MY opportunities

occured in Columbus OH in 1965 when a number of grad students drove up

from Athens to the Cow College at Columbus to listen to Hizzoner tell us

that "phonology is not a part of SYNTACTIC STRUCTURE - - - ASPECTS was

published in 1966... we felt betrayed...)



Would Love to hear more Chomsky stories of "how he let us down..."



Cheers,

tlc



On Thu, 6 Apr 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  Dennis P. writes:

  _____________________

  The alternatives to harass reflect euphemistic practices. harASS (and

  harASSment) sound too much like HER ASS; HARassment (and HARass) have

  increased. (-ment follows regular rules depending on stress on the

  bisyllabic) Note the similar use of Uranus. urAnus sounded too much like YOUR

  ANUS, so (following Sagan's lead in Cosmos) a URanus pronunciation became more

  popular than before. I treat Uranus in more detail in a Maledicta article of a

  few years back.

  ____________________

  Some linguists sitting in on Noam Chomsky's celebrated exposition of the post-

  Sound Pattern of English theory of phonology during the 1966 LSA Linguistic

  Institute (he taught one phonology seminar and one syntax (post-Aspects)

  seminar, both very well attended) still remember the day he chose to illustrate

  stress rules by citing (several times in succession) the pair

         "CARESS/HARASS"

  with the latter (like the former) receiving final stress. It was never clear

  whether he anticipated the snickers from the audience; if so, it would con-

  stitute one of the few occasions on which Chomsky employed humor in a lecture

  on any topic. (As Fritz Newmeyer recalls, students in those days would bring

  up examples of the form "Gwendolyn persuaded Murgatroyd to be easy to seduce"

  and Chomsky would write on the board "Mary persuaded John to be easy to

  please".)

   On the euphemistic frontal stressing of the planet, though, the alternative

  --replacing "Your Anus" with "Urinous"--doesn't completely solve the problem.

 

  --Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:07:31 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: names to nouns



On Tue, 4 Apr 1995 13:36, Larry Horn writes:



  Wouldn't Machiavelli and Hamburg be the eponyms of 'Machiavellian' and

  'hamburger' rather than the latter being eponyms? I think of 'eponym'

  as being kin to 'namesake' rather than to its converse, which is what

  we need here.



Taking a page - an entire article, actually - from the most recent

PADS, wouldn't the word for the namesake be "eponymee"? :-)



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:21:01 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Harassment



On Wed, 5 Apr 1995 16:19, jeffrey howard allen writes:



  Sexual Harassment has been a hot topic in the business sector for some

  time now. I have always heard Harassment pronounced /ha ras mEnt/ in the

  NW, in Indiana, and lately in Illinois in our section meetings about the

  topic.

 

  However, I heard it pronounced /hair Is mEntNT/ on CNN Headline news the

  other day by an American announcer. I recollect having heard it

  pronounced this way by British colleagues as well back in France.

 

  Are their regional variants of this word in the US? How about in the UK,

  English-speaking Canada, Australia, etc?



I'd always heard the first.



When newscasters started using the word frequently, in connection

with l'affaire Anita Hill, all of a sudden the second pronunciation

seemed much more prevalent. My assumption was (and still is) that

the newsies, self-conscious about the sexual content of their speech,

were trying to avoid saying (a word containing) "ass".



Are there records of regional variation which would contradict this

interpretation?



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Apr 1995 11:28:18 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



On Wed, 5 Apr 1995 11:42, Larry Horn writes:



  I was wondering about Death brand cigs too; perhaps the tobacco

  companies are taking a new tack on pre-empting false advertising

  lawsuits. But I like that airlines company as well. It reminds

  me of the routine Monty Python used to have (or some other

  group--does anyone recall it?) that played off the old "With a

  name like Smuckers it HAS to be good", creating e.g. Vomit brand

  canned ham or Dead Cat brand aerosol (those weren't the original

  examples, but should give you the idea): "With a name like ____,

  it has to be absolutely fanTAStic!"



It was one of Saturday Night Live's fake ads. (Early years; I think

Garrett Morris was in it.) Voice-overs took turns, each trying to be

more disgusting than the others. They were all one-liners, until the

final one, which ran something like:



"Forty nuns and orphans."



"What's so disgusting about that?"



"That's what the rats ate."





(*That* should get us off our food obsession for a while!)

--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:05:31 +0200

From:  Raimund Schiess  schiess[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE 

Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines



SAS (Scandinavian Airline System) = Sex After Service



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:44:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Harassment



Bethany (and others),

The full reference is:

Dennis R. Preston. Whose Anus? Uranus. Maledicta X (1988-89), pp. 195-98.

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:59:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: needs + present participle



In my expereiece, the farther you go south of the usual north versus south

midlands boundary, the less likly you are to hear need + past.part (e.g.,

needs washed). In my more recent Michigan experience, the division

between N. Midland and North concerning this feature seems more abrupt.

As a Louisville area speaker, I have all the others:

My clothes need to be washed.

My clothes need a (good) washing. (I don't like this as much without the

adjective; odd huh?)

My clothes need washing.

And I also confess to the variant:

My clothes need a-washing (which, blush, I first thought people were referring

to with the article citation. Just a little friendly a-prefixing y'all).

The first time I heard the need+past part. construction, I thought it was

distinctly non-native.

It is interesting (at least to me) to note, by the way, that native speakers

of need+past part. grow up in complete ignorance of its limited distribution

(as, say, Appalachian speakers do not of a-prefixing). Since there are no

negative caricatures of the area which supports it (generally), the local

speakers believe they are speakers of the mythical General American English.

I had a helluva time once convincing a Findlay, Ohio resident that his use of

this construction was in the least unusual (but, then, he was a Slavic

linguist). Since he was something of a prescriptivist, it was all the more

horrible for him.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:09:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Harassment



It takes a productive (i.e., non-Beavis-and-Butthead) morphology (at least as

regards -ous) to snicker at Urinous. In some recent work here on trisyllabic

laxing, we have found that lots of so-called productive rules appear not to be

so after all. Looks like lexical representations are winning the day. (E.g.,

divine, divinity; cave, cavity; saline, salinity).

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

chaning to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:14:31 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: joking names for Airlines



SABINA- Such A Bad Experience Never Again



AIR AFRIQUE - Joke : Due to recent financial struggles Air Afrique

recently changed the name of the company to Air Sans Fric.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:18:34 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Gregory J. Pulliam wrote:



  Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

  a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

  in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?

  Greg Pulliam

 

It is in my North Midland/Indland northern mix.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:29:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



 At 8:18 AM 4/6/95 -0400, Wayne Glowka wrote:

 

  A Texan, I would actually live on Mexican food if it were possible to do so.

 

 Well they do it Mexico, presumably. I say give it a shot. I certainly

 sympathize with the impulse.

 

 Kate Catmull       kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



The problem is that I have to live with other people. Not too long ago, I

took a friend with me to Texas to visit my family. After about the third

day, he announced that he had eaten all of the pinto beans he would ever

eat again in his life. He had realized that he had eaten them at the house

of every relative we had visited. That day we went to see my sister. We

had pinto beans.



Cilantro grew in the Garden of Eden,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:33:08 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia!



 Peter McGraw isn't the only one on the list who remembers ambrosia as

 a "salad" (seemed like a dessert to me) made with pieces of fresh fruit

 (usually including canned mandarin orange slices), nuts (usually English

 walnuts), marshmallows, coconut, and whipped cream (the real stuff).

 The fruit had to include apples and bananas. No jello. Jello desserts

 came along later, and most of the netters have written about jello desserts

 rather than ambrosia. But if one allows the semantic range of terms to

 spread, one can call all of them ambrosia. Oh, yes, I forgot pineapple.

 I remember reacting in the 1970s to the use of 'ambrosia' to refer to

 jello salads -- particularly bothered by use of the term for combinations

 that did not include coconut. In the 1940s my mother and her friends would

 get whole coconuts when possible and break them open and then grate the

 meat. They would save the liquid from the coconut to use in a real

 coconut cream pie. This was in the 1940s.   DMLance



Still done this way in Milledgeville, GA. The coconut is cracked by

heating it in the oven. What would the microwave do to it?











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



  Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

  a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

  in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?

  Greg Pulliam



it's grammatical to me.



my car needs washing.

my hair needs trimming.

my arbor needs pruning.

my lectures need preparing.

my chair needs mending.



but, i prefer:

my paper needs to be written. vs. ?my paper needs writing.



my gut reaction is that this is b/c the papers don't exist yet. "my

paper needs revising" is fine. but this explanation might be

thwarted by the lecture example above. but then, maybe it's related

to "*my used books need selling" which seems weird to me because it

does not benefit my books to be sold. or, it doesn't change my books

to be sold (it only changes my storage space and my pocket).



also:

*my mother needs writing (to).

  (but: my mother needs to be written (to) once a week.)

*my friend needs calling.

  (but: my friend needs to be called.)

*my students need helping.

  (but: my students need help/to be helped)



perhaps it's the case that in the present participle cases, it

doesn't have to be the possessor of the object that is the

understood agent of the participle--the agent seems to be

unspecified in a way that it isn't w/ a passive paraphrase of the

same. i.e., in the case of "my car needs washing" we needn't assume

that i have to wash it (i could hire a kid to do it), but w/ my

mother, it doesn't satisfy her if the publisher's clearinghouse

writes to her--she isn't "written to" in this context unless i (or

someone else made relevant by the context) do it.  again, though,

i think that the lecture example works against this hypothesis.



incidentally, all of the above are true, so:

my nerves need calming.



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 07:47:15 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



In neIN, X needs present participle, receives thumbs down, 100%.

This construction isn't used, AND 90+ people say it's ungrammatical.



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:16:54 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Pinto Beans



A Texan also, I grew up on pinto beans, but never have thought of them

 as especially Mexican.



BTW, has anyone else eaten pinto bean sandwiches?



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:28:51 -0400

From:  Bob Foster  AmOptNews[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: "the royal I" ???????????



This is only tangentially related, but a few years ago, I was in a federal

courtroom to watch a corporation (Emerson Electric) plead guilty to felony

fraud charges. No individuals were named. It was just a corporation, acting

alone! Alas for this discussion, I don't think Emerson's masterful attorneys

invented a fitting pronoun. Nor did the judge, who made a number of

sarcastic comments about wishing some person from the corporation would have

shown up, invent a way for the corporation to spend time in jail!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 09:45:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Southern Shuft



A polite request to comment on the apparent contradiction to the general rule

that tense vowels rise and lax vowels fall in the Southern Shift has not yet

provoked any of us to answer in detail. The full answer is perhaps too

detailed for the list, but I believe the following will resolve the apparent

contradiction.

The data which cause the confusion are those of the following sort: In the

Southern Shift TEAM sounds like TAME and TAME sounds like TIME (and TIME

sounds like TOM, but that is perhaps not important to this discussion).

It is important to add, I believe, that (at least to Northerners) BIT sounds a

little like BEET and BET a little like BAIT.

If all this is so, then isn't it the case that the tense vowels are falling

and the lax ones raising?

First, let us note that a better statement of the principle would be

that it is the peripheral vowels which tend to raise and the nonperipherals

which tend to fall. Granted, tense vowels, in general, tend to be more

peripheral than lax.

Second, however, notice that the tense properties of the vowels in TEAM, TAME,

and TIME (those which fall in the Southern Shift) derive from the glide

or second portion of the diphthong. The onset of the vowel itself can be (and

was obviously interpreted as) lax (or nonperipheral), at least more so than

the corresponding vowels in BIT, BET, and, perhaps, even BAT.

The Southern Shift is, therefore, based on a reinterpretation of the

peripherality (tenseness) of the diphthongal vowels which are traditionally

regarded as tense but, in this case, whose onsets are regarded as lax (or less

peripheral) than the nearby traditionally lax ones.

Since varieties of English other than Southern US (e.g., Australian) obey very

similar rules, this seems to be an accurate analysis.

All the complexities are not here since varieties may have competing

subsystems of change, some of them based on differing interpretations of

which items are tense versus lax (or, better, peripheral versus non

peripheral).

See Part B of Labov's New Principles of Linguistic Change (Oxford, Blackwell,

1994) for fuller details.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:02:57 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pinto Beans



 A Texan also, I grew up on pinto beans, but never have thought of them

  as especially Mexican.

 

 BTW, has anyone else eaten pinto bean sandwiches?

 

 Bethany



Yes, at least once a week as a burrito. However, my mother's hamburger

joint in San Antonio apparently cleans up with bean burgers--refried beans

sold in a hamburger bun with appropriate condiments.



In Oaxaca, Mexico, one time, I was having a good deal of trouble after

eating spicy dried meat washed down with beer. I thought that I would tone

down my diet with a simple sandwich Cubano. To the horror of my stomach,

this sandwich came with a smear of refried black beans and a slice of

jalapeno. By the way, in Oaxaca, street vendors sell pancakes /pankakes/.

You can get them with "miel" (syrup) or with Eagle brand sweetened

condensed milk poured on them. Most customers got them with the milk.

That was American food.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:22:22 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "the royal I" ???????????



We should probably mover this along to the Forensics List soon, BUT:



there is sometimes a way for a person to go to jail for the corp.; it

happens when the court "pierces the corporate veil." (You don't want

to know more about this, believe me.)



Ta,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 06:55:37 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Harassment



One of my favorite play on words with Uranus, was the Dilbert comic strip (you

English teachers do read Dilbert, don't you?) where an electronics firm named

"Uranus Hertz" was introduced.



But then again, I liked "Derry Air" for the name of an Irish airlines as well.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:25:11 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



 It is important to add, I believe, that (at least to Northerners) BIT sounds a

 little like BEET and BET a little like BAIT.

 If all this is so, then isn't it the case that the tense vowels are falling

 and the lax ones raising?



 Dennis Preston



I will defer to a professional, but I'd say the opposite is true in Central

Georgia.



BIT sounds like [bixt] x = schwa



BET sounds like [bext]



BEET sounds like [bxit]



BAIT sounds like [b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eit] or [baeit]



Full of [bxinz],



















Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:36:45 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



On Marlboro's: I'm old enough to remember when the ads for this cigarette

featured a woman in evening dress with arm-length white [kid?] gloves, the

epitome of elegance. That mid 50's ad campaign obviously failed, and the cowboy

replaced the woman as the image of the cigarette.



                    David

David Bergdahl Ohio Univ/Athens    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:03:16 -0500

From:  Tom Klingler  klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



Whenever I've heard "zinc" in New Orleans I've taken it to mean "sink"

rather than "counter top". The possibility that it could refer to the

latter never occurred to me, but I'll try to look into it.

******************************************************************************

Tom Klingler

Assistant Professor

Department of French and Italian

Tulane University

New Orleans, LA 70118

(504) 862-3120 (office)

(504) 865-8020

Email: klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 08:35:53 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Gregory J. Pulliam wrote:



  Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

  a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

  in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?

  Greg Pulliam

 

No, Greg, you're not alone. When I first saw the message about

"needs a washing," I wondered at it, but thought I'd sit this one out.

For me, at least, "needs washing" is the normal, neutral form. "Needs a

washing" is more likely to be used, usually with the adjective "good", to

form an intensified version of the construction, e.g., "What THIS car

needs is a good washing!"



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:24:08 LCL

From:  Michael Elkins  MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



To:      mail[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ih (Multiple recipients of list ADS-L)

{ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu}

Date:     06-Apr-95 18:57:02 -0600

Reply-to:   mail[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ih (American Dialect Society) {ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu}

From:     mail[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ih (Katherine Catmull) {kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM}

Subject:    Re: Ambrosia?

Importance:  LOW



At 8:18 AM 4/6/95 -0400, Wayne Glowka wrote:



 A Texan, I would actually live on Mexican food if it were possible to

do so.



On 4/6/95 Kate Catmull wrote:



Well they do it Mexico, presumably. I say give it a shot. I certainly

sympathize with the impulse.





Also a Texan, I agree there's no better place to get great Mexican food

(or more properly Tex-Mex food) than back home. Even a restaurant here

in Los Angeles that so boldly is called Marix Tex-Mex would not deign to

dish up something as hearty, albeit lowly, as Frito pie!



Michael Elkins

Managing Editor

The Advocate

Los Angeles, California



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:24:16 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Scots influence



There's considerable Scot's influence in Iowa where ewe -  yo but I've

never heard the forms cited by halliday



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 11:26:04 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: the Royal I



Larry horn gave the complete context.

bethany got my point but i don't think I can use 'I' the way she can.

Also does it's symmetry to the royal 'we' entitle it to be called 'royal'

whihc is historically inaccurate.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 10:46:24 -0600

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



"Needs washing" is perfectly acceptable to me. I'm from northwest Phila.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 13:21:58 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Royal I



Larry Horn writes:



I'm pretty sure I saw the NBC Nightly News in question, and it wasn't Ford's

own use of "I" that was at issue, but his discussing (in his role of highly-

paid legal Simpsonian poobah) the use of "I" by one of the medical examiners

(Fung?) to describe the collection of material (blood) by an underling who was

evidently a novice. If I'm remembering correctly, it was the novitiate status

of this woman that led to a lively exchange in which Johnnie Cochran dismissed

her as a "rookie", the prosecution objected to that as a slur, and Judge Ito

reminded everyone that some rookies have been MVP's (as opposed to MOP's) in

their rookie year (thinking, perhaps, of Vida Blue or Fred Lynn, although he

wasn't asked for the exact precedents). I better stop before someone asks me

to move it all to the forensic.lx list.   --Larry



P.S. Oh, I forgot. The point. This would not constitute a royal "I" so much

as an "I" of concealment, hoping to get away with a possible misjudgment of

allowing a rookie, or novice, underling to (mis?)handle evidence in the trial

of the century. The royal "I" per se is more like a scientist using a first

person singular in appropriating the work of junior colleagues and graduate

students, I'd think. (Apocryphal as such tales always are.)



 -----------------------------



Come on, as a non lawyer linguist, I can restate the issue as: Was Fung lying

in saying "I did X" when in fact it was a trainee under his supervision who

did X? All the speech act/implicature stuff that I remember (and I will

happily defer to Larry on this) suggests that this was something nefarious: If

having a trainee do this evidence collection is normal, why wasn't it

mentioned previously?



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:48:41 EDT

From:  Rex Pyles  REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



And to me (I grew up in WVa.)

  Rex



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 14:54:43 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: corporations and dilbert



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  We should probably mover this along to the Forensics List soon, BUT:

 

  there is sometimes a way for a person to go to jail for the corp.; it

  happens when the court "pierces the corporate veil." (You don't want

  to know more about this, believe me.)



I didn't know there was a corporate veil, or that courts could pierce it,

but it sounds like a ray of hope in this darkening world.



For related reasons, Jim, I DO read Dilbert.



Tim Frazer





I'm tempted to ask Bethany how to get on the Forensics het, but I

can't handle the mail I get now.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 16:40:38 -0500

From:  Gerald Walton  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



   Is "X needs washing" grammatical in the dialects of anybody?



That's the the way I hear it and use it. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 17:41:41 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Pinto Beans



No no no. NOT burritos: pinto bean sandwiches. 2 slices of bread, some pinto

beans (NOT refried), mustard or mayo optional.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 18:35:11 -0400

From:  David R Beach  dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OSF1.GMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: joking names for Airlines



SAS - Serious Air Sickness



DELTA - Doesn't Even Leave The Airport



someone already gave my favorite one--sabena.



David



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 17:40:00 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



At 7:59 AM 4/7/95 -0400, Dennis.Preston wrote:

 In my expereiece, the farther you go south of the usual north versus south

 midlands boundary, the less likly you are to hear need + past.part (e.g.,

 needs washed).



I've lived most of my 36 years in the south and had certainly never heard

of this construction before it was brought up here. In fact I would have

guessed it was not just an ungrammatical construction but an impossible,

syntactically meaningless one.



Live and learn. BTW, I was born in Utah and my father and many other close

relatives are native Utahns, so I don't guess it's common there, either.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 17:59:57 -0400

From:  bates  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines



Then, of course, came the purely fictional airlines of standup comics, towit:



    Bob Newhart - The Grace L. Ferguson Airlines and Storm Door Co.



    Lenny Bruce - Non-Skeddo Airlines



Probably others?



                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 21:08:30 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: corporations and dilbert



Tim Frazer writes:





 I'm tempted to ask Bethany how to get on the Forensics het, but I

 can't handle the mail I get now.



--but perhaps it needs saying [ --OK for us New Yorkers, at least] that

forensic.linguistics isn't just for hets anymore (if it ever was).

                       :)

                        Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 20:09:07 -0600

From:  "Garland D. Bills"  gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:

  I will defer to a professional, but I'd say the opposite is true in Central

  Georgia.

 

  BIT sounds like [bixt] x = schwa

  BET sounds like [bext]

  BEET sounds like [bxit]

  BAIT sounds like [b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eit] or [baeit]

  Full of [bxinz],



It will be noted that Wayne's examples support exactly what D[ix]nis (that

is, Labov) was saying. The syllabic nuclei of the first two are

peripheral (tense) and therefore rising. The nuclei of the last three are

non-peripheral (lax) and therefore falling.



Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 22:09:33 LCL

From:  Michael Elkins  MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM 

Subject: Re: Pinto Beans



Bethany Dumas wrote:

BTW, has anyone else eaten pinto bean sandwiches?



Oh, such a wonderful memory! My mother used to reheat and mash pinto

beans in a skillet with chopped onion (the homemade refried version) and

make sandwiches for the two of us for lunch in the years before I went

off to first grade. I'll have to call her now. Thanks.



Michael Elkins

Managing Editor

The Advocate

Los Angeles, Calif.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Apr 1995 to 7 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 18 messages totalling 362 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Pinto Beans

 2. needs + present participle (4)

 3. corporations and dilbert

 4. Southern Shift? (2)

 5. Southern Shuft (5)

 6. Ambrosia

 7. Uranus (2)

 8. joking names for Airlines

 9. Cigarette brands. Help, please!



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Apr 1995 22:50:55 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pinto Beans



My bean sandwiches (sometimes pinto, sometimes navy, depending on what my

mother cooked) were made with white bread and Miracle Whip. When I

developed a taste for haute cuisine, I went to Best Foods (Heilman's)

Mayonaisse.

Cheers,

tlc



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  A Texan also, I grew up on pinto beans, but never have thought of them

  as especially Mexican.

 

  BTW, has anyone else eaten pinto bean sandwiches?

 

  Bethany

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 01:09:25 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



Thank you all. My questions no longer need answering.

Greg Pulliam (but of course keep answering if you wish!)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 06:59:16 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



Ok, I'll continue answering since I haven't heard these locations mentioned

with respect to needs+pp.

I heard it and said it growing up in Los Angeles in the late 40s and 50s. And

I've heard my parents (from Philadelphia) say it too.

My question: can someone discern a pattern here since 1) the north/south

pattern was denied and 2) the incidence, at first blush, seems so scattered?

Ron Rabin



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 07:00:15 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: corporations and dilbert



 

  --but perhaps it needs saying [ --OK for us New Yorkers, at least] that

  forensic.linguistics isn't just for hets anymore (if it ever was).



OK, I'm cyberilliterate. What's a het?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 07:19:03 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shift?



Help! I thought the nuclei of the first two (/I/ and /E/) were at first lax.

Or am I only thinKing from the point of view of my dialect? Aren'tthey

tense only as a RESULT of the shift? And



And aren't the last three originally tense, having become lax on AFTER

the shift?



On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Garland D. Bills wrote:



  On Fri, 7 Apr 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:

    I will defer to a professional, but I'd say the opposite is true in Central

    Georgia.

   

    BIT sounds like [bixt] x = schwa

    BET sounds like [bext]

    BEET sounds like [bxit]

    BAIT sounds like [b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eit] or [baeit]

    Full of [bxinz],

 

  It will be noted that Wayne's examples support exactly what D[ix]nis (that

  is, Labov) was saying. The syllabic nuclei of the first two are

  peripheral (tense) and therefore rising. The nuclei of the last three are

  non-peripheral (lax) and therefore falling.

 

  Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

  Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

  University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

  Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:34:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



Wayne Glowka's more detailed (rather than rough rhyming word) pronunciations

are not unique to Georgia. They show exactly the raising and lowering common

to the Southern Shift everywhere. Sorry if I overstated by using the more

simplified rough rhyming versions.

When, for example, Wayne notes that a word like BID goes to [bi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]d] (where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] =

schwa), the additional schwa does not indicate lowering. It is the vowel onset

which is higher. Similar reasoning applies in each case.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:45:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



My congratulations to Garland Bills for noticing that my first name (Dennis)

has already undergone neutralization (at [I]) in the first syllable and,

therefore, when it undergoes the Southern Shift, it is properly realized as

[di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs] not [deynIs] which would have been the case if the earlier form were

[dEnIs]. It is in these subtle (sub-tile) ways that we catch y'all when y'all

doing your Beverly Hillbilles and Dukes of Hazard acts.

Note, by the way, that the lax (unstressed) [I] in the second syllable of my

name does not undergo the Southern Shift since the lack of stress on the

syllable takes it out of the peripheral (tense) classification. Here we could

catch you too. You might think that you had got the Southern Shift stuff down

and say [di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s], not realizing that many schwa positions in Southern and

South Midlands varieties are [I]. Worse, you might have known that but applied

the Southern Shift to both syllables, yielding the impossible [di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ni[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s].

Either way, you would have been found out, y'all wannabe sweet-talkers you.

[di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs] Preston (Let's see who can do the last name right!)

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

changing to

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:55:29 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia



Well, everyone seems to be talking about ambrosia, but no one seems to be

doing anything about ambrosia. So, herewith, a recipe copied from put

together cookbook of recipes people have given me. This ambrosia is made with

pineapples but you could substitute oranges, or whatever. By the way this is

not my Mama, but someone else's.



Mama's Pineapple Salad (Ambrosia)



Ingredients:

1 No. 2 can Pineapple (or substitute the fruit you desire)

1/4 cup sugar

1/2 tsp. salt

2 TB. flour

1 egg

2 TB. lemon juice

1 tsp. grated lemon peel

3/4 cup whipping cream

1/4 lb. marshmallows



Take the juice from the pineapple and combine it with the sugar, salt, flour

and egg. Cook, stirring until thick and smooth. Add the lemon juice and peel.

Cover and chill. Whip the cream until stiff. Fold it into the custard along

with the marshmallows and pineapple.



Now follow this recipe and head off to your family reunions, Easter

celebrations, or weddings with pride.



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:27:10 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



 [di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs] Preston (Let's see who can do the last name right!)

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

 changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 

 



My guess would be [prIstIn]



But then, mine has become something like [bi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rIn].



Dennis Baron      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Dept. of English        217-333-2392

Univ. of Illinois      fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright St.  home 217-384-1683

Urbana IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 09:28:42 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



 [di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs] Preston (Let's see who can do the last name right!)

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

 changing to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 

 



My guess would be [prIstIn]



But then, mine has become something like [bi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rIn].



Dennis Baron      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Dept. of English        217-333-2392

Univ. of Illinois      fax: 217-333-4321



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 12:38:31 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Uranus



You just can't win with 'Uranus'. If you stress the first syllable, it

sounds like an adjective describing a certain yellow liquid. But it is,

nonetheless, preferable. Did you raise this problem in your MALEDICTA

article, Dennis?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:55:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shift?



That was the point of my longish note, Tim. The nucleus of the diphthongal

[Iy] and [Ey] is less peripheral than the corresponding plain [I] and [E]

vowels. Hence the less peripheral vowels fall and the more peripheral ones

raise (and get inglides, by the way). Of course, the traditional

classifications are getting in the way here.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu or preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:58:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



[dEn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] Baron shore ain't no Southern Shifter. [prIstIn] is way off (but not

bad for a New Zealand pronunciation of it - too far south). No other takers?

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

changing to

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 16:01:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Uranus



The Urinous interpretation escaped me and is not in the Maledicta piece. I

suspect it is far too fancy a form to have engaged the

pre-but-sympathetic-Beavis-and-Butthead-mentality of me and my comrades of

earlier years.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

changing to: preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:19:01 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: joking names for Airlines



David,



Thanks for the correction regarding the spelling of SABENA as I wrote out

SABINA in my message. I've got a friend whose name is Sabina, so it's

just habit.



Jeff Allen





-----------------------------------------------

  

someone already gave my favorite one--sabena.



David



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 15:42:01 -0400

From:  bates  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cigarette brands. Help, please!



And, as something of a footnote, the cowboy-style Marlboro Man began to be

downplayed after, I believe, two of the actor/models for that persona died of

lung cancer! So it goes in the world of advertising.



                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 18:06:34 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



  Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

  a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

  in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?



You're not alone. "X needs washing" is perfectly normal in my Mississippi

dialect.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   home from an excellent SECOL -- thank you, Bill Kretzschmar, Ellen

   Johnson, and others!



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Apr 1995 21:46:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs + present participle



I'm a little puzzled by the recent suggestion that needs+past part. has a

distribution that is ragged or unknown. It seems that we have not kept

needs+past part. and needs+pres.part. straight. Indeed, several people have

indicated unfamiliarity with Needs Washing while others (from the same region)

have found it normal.

That is surely not the case with needs+past part. It has its origins in Scots

(Scots-Irish), spreads from Western Pennsylvania over, roughly, the area known

as North Midlands. A little farther North (e.g., southern Michigan), and it is

unknown (my undergraduates at MSU think it is non-native); a little farther

South, the same (when I was a Louisville kid, I never heard it).

The only mixed reports we have heard (predictably) are from such outlandish

places as Oregon where pockets of immigrants from North or South Midlands keep

old speech practices alive even into later generations.

We called that stuff with Jello and other crap in it Jello Mold; I wouldn't

eat it when I was a kid, and I won't eat it now (just in case you have me

over).

Ambrosia is a young adult term for me, and I can't recall when I ran into it.

It was only a little more palatable than Jello Mold as I recall.

I can't believe I am writing about this food stuff any more than I can believe

that peple eat bean sandwiches. Must be the Hungarian in me. How about the

distribution of at least something the rest of us could eat? What do you

call Cabbage Rolls. We called then Stuffed Cabbage (calqued from Hungarian),

but I have heard them called Pigs in a Blanket (which, for me, were horrible

store-bought dough wrapped around hot dogs and baked - UGH!). Do Poles out

there ever loan-translate Cabbage Rolls (I suppose it would be Little Doves or

Pigeons)?

OK, no winners.

The Southern Shift version of Preston is [pre[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stIn] (where [e] is relatively

tense and forward (the raising of peripheral [E]) and in-glided. The [I] in

the second syllable does not raise (and in-glide) since its non-stressed

status prevents it from being interpreted as a peripheral.

Of course, the allegro (or informal) version would be [pre[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s?N] where [?] is

the glottal and [N] is a syllabic (but that would have been for extra credit).

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

changing to

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Apr 1995 to 8 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 205 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. needs washing

 2. Joking Names for Airlines

 3. Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle) (3)

 4. Southern Shuft (2)

 5. needs+past participle



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 15:41:00 +1300

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: needs washing



Needs washing is cited by Trudgill in International English as the English

English equivalent of needs washed. It is the form my "needs washed" is

most often corrected to in New Zealand which has a Southern English type

dialect.



The sentences in my early posting were Scots forms - probably used throughout

Scotland but specifically based on West Central Scots.



There is an interesting paper by Trudgill somewhere that explored the rejection

of various construtions in various dialects by other English speakers who

made comments such as "this construction couldn't exist in any form of English".

Among them I recall the positive anymore use recently discussed.



George Halliday



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 01:47:40 EDT

From:  kim mckinzey  74525.1614[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Joking Names for Airlines



The only one I've heard - many years ago - was for TAP (Portugese Airlines):

Take Another Plane



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 07:23:44 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



  call Cabbage Rolls. We called then Stuffed Cabbage (calqued from Hungarian),

  but I have heard them called Pigs in a Blanket (which, for me, were horrible

  store-bought dough wrapped around hot dogs and baked - UGH!). Do Poles out



No. Pigs in a Blanket are vienna sausages in bread w/ mustard. (I have,

however, heard some people call little cocktail sausages wrapped in dough

Pigs in a Blanket.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



  No. Pigs in a Blanket are vienna sausages in bread w/ mustard. (I have,

  however, heard some people call little cocktail sausages wrapped in dough

  Pigs in a Blanket.)

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



to my family (upstate ny) pigs in blankets involve dough--not bread.

(otherwise, it'd just be a hot dog.) we did the little cocktail ones

when i was a kid, but the local restaurant also did big viennas in

dough. that's what i always ordered--to a kid, this was haute

cuisine.



however, pancake chains now call breakfast sausages wrapped in

pancakes "pigs in blankets" too (i know IHOP does, and i think perkins

does too).



by the way, i resent all the talk of mexican food. it makes me

homesick. went to a mexican restaurant here and all the dishes had

feta in them! i'm down to buying roti and pretending they're

tortillas.



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 16:28:07 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



A pig-in-a-blanket is a vienna [va-in[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] sausage wrapped in a canned

biscuit held together with a toothpick and baked. Not as bad as it

sounds; in fact, now that y'all remind me of it, I may even try it. I

don't cook, and that sure as heck doesn't count as cooking.



Ellen

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 17:18:22 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



 

  [dEn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] Baron shore ain't no Southern Shifter. [prIstIn] is way off (but not

  bad for a New Zealand pronunciation of it - too far south). No other takers?

  Dennis Preston

  22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

  changing to

  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 

When I lived in Georgia, I worked with a psychologist named Steve Bell.

Rural northern Ga speakers called him something like [b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l]. Even after the

raising, the onset schwa is there. Back to which I will come.

Based on this evidence and other field observations, I would say  preston 

becomes [pr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stIn].



All of the data presented start with stops. I wonder if the onset schwa

everybody hears has to do with the quality of the vowel and what happens

to it. I suspect it has more to do with the initial consonant. What

data without initial consonants are there?   Eat  comes to mind.

It lowers, but it lacks the onset people report in  team .



Could you clarify for me what peripheral/nonperipheral mean in acoustic

and articulatory terms?



I am unaware of any principles of sound change. All I am familiar

with are hypotheses within the context of certain paradigms and then

certain facts.



Terry Irons



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 16:42:39 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



Two further questions about this:



1. In James Dickey's novel "Deliverance" one of the mountaineers says

"who the HALE are you?" Am I correct in assuming this to be an wxample

of the southern shift, since I would transcribe that [he[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l].



2. Does Labov or anyone have a

geographical fix on this--is it in both the uplands and the coastal South?



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Apr 1995 18:28:12 EDT

From:  flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: needs+past participle



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 09-Apr-1995 06:27pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Beverly Flanigan              Dept: Linguistics

     FLANIGAN                 Tel No:



Subject: needs+past participle





  My surveys on the use of "needs + past participle" (as in "needs

  washed") narrow the distribution more than Preston's, Murray's, et al.

  I've collected data over the past five years or more, using Trudgill's

  questionnaire (in an article reprinted in _On Dialect_, NYU Press,

  1983), and I get native speaker use of this form _only_ from South

  Midland speakers. Ohio cuts nicely into three regions: Northern

  (Cleveland), North Midland (Columbus), and South Midland (Cincinnati to

  Athens), giving me students from all over the state and outside. No

  one from Columbus northward (including Akron) has ever reported using

  "needs+past part.", although some have heard it, principally down here

  in the foothills of Appalachia (/AEp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lAEtch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ to the natives, by the

  way). If they haven't heard it, they call it "foreign"; if they have,

  they ridicule it as "hillbilly." Native users, by the way, often

  report that they had never heard any alternate form before going away

  to college or moving away; contra Murray, I've never had a student

  pretend not to know it while actually using it (perhaps because of the

  privacy of a written questionnaire, but we openly discuss the forms

  afterwards too). The same goes for "positive anymore"--again, no

  denials, but this gets a bit wider distribution, including Akron

  (perhaps from in-migrants?) but not Columbus. I don't recall hearing

  it in Bloomington, Indiana, though; perhaps the spread from Penn. and

  Appalachia doesn't extend that far, just as "needs+past part." doesn't

  reach to Louisville? Most importantly, I don't see either of these

  forms as North Midland, at least not in my (many) Columbus-area

  informants.

                      Beverly Flanigan

                      Ohio University







Received: 09-Apr-1995 06:28pm



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Apr 1995 to 9 Apr 1995

**********************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 253 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle) (3)

 2. Uranus

 3. Peripherality

 4. zinc

 5. World Peace Society Project

 6. needs+past participle



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:24:13 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



   call Cabbage Rolls. We called then Stuffed Cabbage (calqued from Hungarian),

   but I have heard them called Pigs in a Blanket (which, for me, were horrible

   store-bought dough wrapped around hot dogs and baked - UGH!). Do Poles out

 

 No. Pigs in a Blanket are vienna sausages in bread w/ mustard. (I have,

 however, heard some people call little cocktail sausages wrapped in dough

 Pigs in a Blanket.)

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Pigs in a blanket are breakfast sausages rolled up in a pancake served with

syrup.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:32:20 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



Give the many variants of Pigs in blankets we have been graced with here,

it sounds t me like you're ordering a pig in a poke if order pigs

in a blanket off a menu in a restaurant you don't know!



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 09:37:24 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Pigs in Blankets (was Re: needs + present participle)



Yet another variant: a kosher hot dog wrapped in bagel dough. These are

available frozen at our local Jewel and are called (you guessed it) Bagel

Dogs.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 08:42:38 MST

From:  Jim Venis  jimv%ccmailgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IHS.COM 

Subject: Re: Uranus



   How about the hybrid, u-RAN-us? --Jim





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Uranus

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at Internet

Date:  4/8/95 2:03 pm





You just can't win with 'Uranus'. If you stress the first syllable, it

sounds like an adjective describing a certain yellow liquid. But it is,

nonetheless, preferable. Did you raise this problem in your MALEDICTA

article, Dennis?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:53:13 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Peripherality



Terry Irons asks, with regard to the Southern Shift:



   Could you clarify for me what peripheral/nonperipheral mean in acoustic

   and articulatory terms?



As a matter of fact, no. I don't mean to be flip. It's just that the

peripheral/non-peripheral distinction, like the tense/lax distinction, has no

empirical basis. They're both ways of labeling two sets of vowels that we all

*know* are different. Labov, in his new book, has lots of diagrams showing

peripheral vs. non-peripheral vowels in terms of the boundaries of the vowel

quadrilateral. Ocke Bohn (of the University of Kiel) recently gave a talk here

at Haskins in which he appealed to the same peripheral/non-peripheral

distinction for very different purposes, to explain Pat Kuhl's

magnet/prototype effect (in a nutshell, it's harder to hear small differences

between vowel tokens that are near some posited prototype than it is to hear

differences of comparable physical magnitude that are not near the prototype).

Giving theoretical support to the notion of peripherality would depend on

providing a theoretical interpretation of the vowel quadrilateral. In intro

books, we talk about it terms of the position of the highest portion of the

tongue. However, physiological studies (x-ray, etc), especially those by

Sidney Wood, have shown that this is not an appropriate way to describe vowel

articulation. In acoustic terms, there's a reasonably good fit between the

vowel quadrilateral and F1/F2 plots of acoustic measures (especially if you

use a logarithmic scale and plot F2-F1 rather than simply F2). But it's really

unlikely (in my opinion, others may disagree) that speakers produce and

understand speech in terms of formant frequencies (we understand people with

very different sized vocal tracts...).



As I said, the peripheral/non-peripheral distinction is (nearly) isomorphic to

the phonological distinction between tense and lax vowels. You'll read in

various places that tense vowels are produced with greater articulatory force

than their lax counterparts. The problem with this is that the one attempt to

test this by using electromyography to measure electrical activity in tongue

muscles found no consistent relationship between vowel type and activity; for

some speakers, /iy/ had activity of longer duration than that for /ih/, as if

there was activity for the nucleus and activity for the glide separately.

(This study was by Freddie Bell-Berti and Larry Raphael).



A problem with the tense/lax opposition is its replicability. Most people who

appeal to it agree that the nuclei of beat, bait, and boot are tense, and

those of bit, bet, and put are lax. However, there is much less agreement

about the rest of the vowels: bat, but, pot, bought, boat. They're clearly

partitioned in English between those that can be the nuclei of stressed C(C)V

monosyllables (so long as you ignore duh and the Knights who say "nih").

Calling the raising of /ae/ in MAN "tensing" implies that it's lax, but it's

still peripheral, no?



Anyway, this has all been a long way around to justify my claim that there's

no real theoretical motivation for peripheral/non-peripheral. That doesn't

mean it's not a real partitioning of the vowels. It just means that we haven't

figured it out yet.



   I am unaware of any principles of sound change. All I am familiar

   with are hypotheses within the context of certain paradigms and then

   certain facts.



Perhaps you disagree with Labov as to what constitutes a principle...



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 19:11:00 -0400

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



 I know that my grandmother--a life-long New Orleanian with no French

ancestry--used to say zinc, because we used to tease her about it. My

memory is that it could refer to the basin itself or to the counter

surrounding it--which is semantically the same as sink is for me.



 Connie Eble

University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 20:07:39 -0400

From:  Mike Noon  mnoon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CC.GETTYSBURG.EDU 

Subject: World Peace Society Project



    The idea behind the World Peace Society Project is peace.

As the founder of the Project, I ask this question: Is humanity

behaving in a way that, as a whole, serves the best interest of

humanity?

    As the founder of the World Peace Society Project, my job

is to merely coordinate the Project in its early stage. In the

early stage, I plan to merely share the idea of the World Peace

Society Project.

    In your opinion, is humanity presently working for peace,

as a whole, or working against it? For right now, I'm looking for

people interested in helping me share the idea of he World Peace

Society Project.

    To hear more form me about the World Peace Society Project,

send email to Geoff Coe, c/o mnoon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.gettysburg.edu. The "snail

mail" address of the World Peace Society Project is:

    WPSP

    PO BOX 167

    Chambersburg, PA 17201



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Apr 1995 18:03:50 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs+past participle



On Sun, 9 Apr 1995 flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU wrote:



 

  Subject: needs+past participle

 

 

    My surveys on the use of "needs + past participle" (as in "needs

    washed") narrow the distribution more than Preston's, Murray's, et al.

    I've collected data over the past five years or more, using Trudgill's

    questionnaire (in an article reprinted in _On Dialect_, NYU Press,

    1983), and I get native speaker use of this form _only_ from South

    Midland speakers.

I'd like to respond to this in more detail, but I can't find the qr you

are talking about. What page is it on?



Are you defining "south midland speakers" only by where they live or by

other features that appear in their speech? I'm a little leery of

definition by location, since Ohio linguistic geography is likely to be

more complicated than the broad divisions you suggest. I suspect there are

lot of differences, for example, between Athens and the rest of the

county you live in.



There appear to me to be no fixed boundaries we all agree on, either,

which is one reason dialectolgy is so much fun--we can argue continually

over their location





Ohio cuts nicely into three regions: Northern

    (Cleveland), North Midland (Columbus), and South Midland (Cincinnati to

    Athens), giving me students from all over the state and outside. No

    one from Columbus northward (including Akron) has ever reported using

    "needs+past part.",

What's between the axis of Cinn-Athens and Columbus? And here again, e

division in Ohio will not always be as neat as you suggest. Counties

will have more than one dialect.







 although some have heard it, principally down here

    in the foothills of Appalachia (/AEp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lAEtch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ to the natives, by the

    way). If they haven't heard it, they call it "foreign"; if they have,

    they ridicule it as "hillbilly." Native users, by the way, often

    report that they had never heard any alternate form before going away

    to college or moving away; contra Murray, I've never had a student

    pretend not to know it while actually using it (perhaps because of the

    privacy of a written questionnaire, but we openly discuss the forms

    afterwards too). The same goes for "positive anymore"--again, no

    denials, but this gets a bit wider distribution, including Akron

    (perhaps from in-migrants?) but not Columbus. I don't recall hearing

    it in Bloomington, Indiana, though; perhaps the spread from Penn. and

    Appalachia doesn't extend that far, just as "needs+past part." doesn't

    reach to Louisville? Most importantly, I don't see either of these

    forms as North Midland, at least not in my (many) Columbus-area

    informants.



Again, I need to know what you need by North Midland. Origin? Certainly

the Pennsylvania origin would suggest NM.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Apr 1995 to 10 Apr 1995

***********************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 169 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Peggy (2)

 2. needs+past participle

 3. Southern Shee-uhft

 4. zinc

 5. Death cigarets

 6.  No subject given 

 7. Joking Name of Airline

 8. Pigs in Blankets



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 01:33:07 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Peggy



Excuse me, this question may belong on Words-L but I got to wondering the

other day how did the nickname Peggy get associated with Margaret?



Please feel free to answer privately and not waste ADS-L bandwidth if this is

too obvious a question.





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

"Prepare your heinie for another blast of the spank ray" -- SGC2C



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Peggy



  Excuse me, this question may belong on Words-L but I got to wondering the

  other day how did the nickname Peggy get associated with Margaret?

 

  Please feel free to answer privately and not waste ADS-L bandwidth if this is

  too obvious a question.

 

 

  leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

  "Prepare your heinie for another blast of the spank ray" -- SGC2C



i've always wondered this too (and my 3rd name is margaret, so i have

a stake in it) so i hope someone will reply to the list.



i've always assumed margaret --  meg --  peg (but why would that

last step be taken?)



best,

m. lynne margaret murphy



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 07:13:35 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: needs+past participle



A few more comments on Bev Flanigan's post esp. her comment that needs +

pp. is confined to South Midland speakers:



Someone should figure out how to test this objectively. Do SM

phonological features imply the presence of neeeds + pp. or vice versa,

or is there no relationship? In other words, will someone with flattened

/ai/, or with some of the features of the Southern Shift, always have

needs + pp.? Or will needs + pp. predict SM pronunciation? I would

guess the latter not to be true, but can't prove it.



The trick here is that it's easy to elicit the pronunciation features in

a short, taped interview, but you have little control over getting needs

+ pp. The only way Murray gets his data is from an evaluative QR, which

can't elicit pronunciation.



Another point: I'll bet theres an implicational relationship between

needs + ed. and "the cat wants in."

But the latter feature seems to be more common farther north than the

former.



Another point: there is no demographic reason for needs + pp. to be

exclusively SM, since it comes from PA and is common in places like

Pittsburgh. But its possible that the inequality of attendance time in

public schools may have affected its geographic distribution in places

like Ohio; that is, public schools (which paid more attention to oral

language a century ago than now) may have stamped it out in places lke

Columbus.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 10:23:34 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Southern Shee-uhft



Teaching transcription in HEL or in the Structure of P-D English to

students in Central Georgia is always somewhat of a confusing chore because

textbooks use examples that do not correspond to native pronunciation, but

the confusion this morning in HEL was complicated by Charles Barber's use

of RP to illustrate the sounds represented by symbols. Usually, I have to

rely on some non-native speakers in the class for illustrations of

variation in pronunciation, but the textbook provided all the variation we

needed.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 09:14:15 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



The pronunciation of sink as zinc is very common here in NE Wisconsin,

particularly among people of Belgian (Walloon) ancestry who live in the

southern part of the Door Peninsula. So far as I can tell, it refers to the

basin only, as in "I'm going to wash my hairs in the zinc, hey?" (Yes, it's

hairs, not hair--probably from les cheveux.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 19:03:57 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Death cigarets



On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  I was wondering about Death brand cigs too; perhaps the tobacco companies are

  taking a new tack on pre-empting false advertising lawsuits.



Death cigarets do exist, and are packaged appropriately. I don't know

what company makes them -- not one of the large tobacco companies, I

don't think.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 20:50:16 EDT

From:  Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



Needs + p.p. may be less common that needs + pres.p in East Tennessee,

but it known there. I have several citations from the Smoky Mountains

and my consultants there know it as well.



Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, U of South Carolina,

Columbia SC 29208



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:05:04 EDT

From:  Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: Joking Name of Airline



My favorite is ALITALIA = Always Late in Takeoff Always Late in Arrival.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Apr 1995 21:30:56 CST

From:  "Krahn, Al"  AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU 

Subject: Pigs in Blankets



Back in the 40s, my mother made pigs in blankets. They were

what the Germans call Rouladen -- that is, some thinly sliced

round steak wrapped around some bacon and a pickle and tied with

string or thread.



AKRA



Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Div. of Liberal Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Apr 1995 to 11 Apr 1995

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 49 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Archive Delay

 2. Death cigarets



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Apr 1995 07:00:26 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Archive Delay



Yesterday's and today's list archives aren't in place yet because the

machine I receive the digest version of the list on, the version I use

for archiving, is sick. I trust that when it gets well, those files

will still be intact. (I have a regular subscription to ADS-L here at

my usual address and use my dog's account on a different machine for

the digest subscription. I'm going to change that one to a different

machine soon. My dog is very much into net life and has multiple accounts.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Apr 1995 08:58:24 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Death cigarets



Daniel Goodman just wrote:



 On Wed, 5 Apr 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  I was wondering about Death brand cigs too; perhaps the tobacco companies are

  taking a new tack on pre-empting false advertising lawsuits.



 Death cigarets do exist, and are packaged appropriately. I don't know

 what company makes them -- not one of the large tobacco companies, I

 don't think.



By an odd coincidence, I happened to have just come upon this passage in a

(very funny) novel I'm reading, "Thank You For Smoking", by Christopher Buckley

--the Nick referred to is the protagonist, a flack for the "Academy of Tobacco

Studies".



  Nick knew all about Death cigarettes. Everyone at the Academy kept a

  pack, with its distinctive skull and bones logo, despite the fact that

  the industry's official attitude toward Deaths was not exactly collegial.

  It was the perfect cigarette for the cynical age. It said--shouted--OUR

  PRODUCT WILL KILL YOU! What product advertised itself more honestly

  than that? The surgeon general's warning on the side was positively

  ludicrous. And they were FLYING off the shelves, though their appeal

  tended to concentrate on young urbans for whom coughing up blood was

  still a sign of manhood.



 --Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Apr 1995 to 12 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 235 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Peggy (3)

 2. Announcement--10th Annual Tamony Lecture

 3. Death Cigarettes

 4. Robert/Bob

 5. Southern Shuft

 6. Neutralized I E



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 02:13:31 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Peggy



Margaret--[trunc.]-- Meg-- Peg--[dimin.]-- Peggy



As in



Mary-- Molly-- Polly



There seems to be a tendency for stops to replace nasals (as above) or liquids

(as in Richard-- Dick, Robert-- Bob) or of course fricatives (Theodore-- Ted)

in this process of hypocoristicism...



Best, Laurence-- Larry

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 -----------------------------



Ok, I can buy that, but having only a very rudimentary background in

linguistics, all you have

explained to me is the HOW of my question. I'm being picky, but I'm

interested too in the WHY!

What is the cause of the P stop having been chosen for this evolution versus a

D or a B? I'm

looking for the story behind how this change happened. I know it's there

somewhere, and that's what

I'm interested in finding out. ;-) Whence did this change occur?  What

ethnic pool did this happen

in? Was there a specific person that prompted this change indirectly? I

guess I'm looking for the

SOCIO-linguistic response to my query!  G 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Leo--- Leo--- Leo



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Apr 1995 16:17:18 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Announcement--10th Annual Tamony Lecture



   THE TENTH ANNUAL PETER TAMONY MEMORIAL LECTURE ON AMERICAN LANGUAGE



      The Western Historical Manuscript Collection

        cordially invites you to attend

            a lecture on



        "The Every Day in American English"



                by

            Dr. Connie C. Eble

            Professor of English

          University of North Carolina

             at Chapel Hill



        Thursday, 20 April 1995, 4:15 p.m.

         in the Ellis Library Auditorium





          reception following in the

      Western Historical Manuscript Collection

            23 Ellis Library

        University of Missouri-Columbia



            314/882-6028

        robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 08:14:35 -0500

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Death Cigarettes



My listserv mail has again been hovering somewhere in cyberspace,

so I don't know what started this thread. But, here, right from

a package of cigarettes called "Black Death Filter Cigarettes"--

black and gold and silver packaging. Logo on the front is a skull

in a top hat. The address on the package is "Made in the EEC

under license from BLACK DEATH U.S.A. BEVERLY HILLS, CA., U.S.A."

It does not appear to be us tobacco companies cashing in, but

a European (perhaps novelty?) company. It does have the

requisite us product warning. It does not, like us cigarettes,

say anything about where the tobacco was grown.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 09:39:29 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Peggy



Leo Horishny wonders about my derivation (supported by other posters, I think)

of

  Margaret--[trunc.]-- Meg-- Peg--[dimin.]-- Peggy



  As in



  Mary-- Molly-- Polly



 -----------------------------

He writes:

 Ok, I can buy that, but having only a very rudimentary background in

 linguistics, all you have

 explained to me is the HOW of my question. I'm being picky, but I'm

 interested too in the WHY!

 What is the cause of the P stop having been chosen for this evolution versus a

 D or a B? I'm

 looking for the story behind how this change happened. I know it's there

 somewhere, and that's what

 I'm interested in finding out. ;-) Whence did this change occur?  What

 ethnic pool did this happen

 in? Was there a specific person that prompted this change indirectly? I

 guess I'm looking for the

 SOCIO-linguistic response to my query!  G 



I can't speak to the sociolinguistics, but the phonetics seems straightforward

enough: the marked bilabial nasal [m] shifts to the unmarked bilabial oral

stop [p] (rather than shifting position as well as manner to yield [d] or [b]).

Richard --  Dick would fit the same pattern, but Robert --  Bob doesn't (why

THAT hypocoristic rather than, say, Dob?)



P.S.--

  After all, I'm Larry, but my kids always found it easier to say 'Daddy'

         :)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:21:11 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Peggy



 Leo Horishny wonders about my derivation (supported by other posters, I think)

 of

   Margaret--[trunc.]-- Meg-- Peg--[dimin.]-- Peggy

 

   As in

 

   Mary-- Molly-- Polly

 

 ------------------------------

 He writes:

  Ok, I can buy that, but having only a very rudimentary background in

  linguistics, all you have

  explained to me is the HOW of my question. I'm being picky, but I'm

  interested too in the WHY!

  What is the cause of the P stop having been chosen for this evolution versus a

  D or a B? I'm

  looking for the story behind how this change happened. I know it's there

  somewhere, and that's what

  I'm interested in finding out. ;-) Whence did this change occur?  What

  ethnic pool did this happen

  in? Was there a specific person that prompted this change indirectly? I

  guess I'm looking for the

  SOCIO-linguistic response to my query!  G 

 

 I can't speak to the sociolinguistics, but the phonetics seems straightforward

 enough: the marked bilabial nasal [m] shifts to the unmarked bilabial oral

 stop [p] (rather than shifting position as well as manner to yield [d] or [b]).

 Richard --  Dick would fit the same pattern, but Robert --  Bob doesn't (why

 THAT hypocoristic rather than, say, Dob?)

 

 P.S.--

   After all, I'm Larry, but my kids always found it easier to say 'Daddy'

          :)



My little girl (age 19 months) does something akin to the change of

"Robert" to "Bob." "Doggy" for her is "goggy," although she does say the

/d/ in "dada" ("daddy"), I'm proud to report. Her multisyllabic words have

the same consonant and vowel repeated. "Crackers" becomes "gagas."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 10:39:49 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Robert/Bob



Anyone familiar with Monty Python's _The Life of Brian_ will remember (in

this season of the Passion, no less) the scene with the crowd in which a

Roman official cannot say /r/. Like children everywhere, he substituted

/w/ for /r/, much to the delectation of the crowd, which kept hollering out

names like "Barabas" and "Roderick," which the official (was it Pilate or

Biggus Dickus?) repeated as "Bawabas" and "Woderick." _Saturday Night

Live_ parodies of Barbara Walters also come to mind.



Thus, "Robert" may get rendered into "Wob" (like "Rob"), which is a short

bilabial step to "Bob." The same process seems to happen in the change

from "William" to "Bill." However, I still like the duplication argument

that I offered in the last posting.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:12:49 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Southern Shuft



The same vowel phoneme may be (systematicelly) tense in one dialect and

(systematically) lax in another dialect. I think some people are confused

about Northern and Southern vowel shifting because they have a "cardinal"

view of "the vowel phonemes."     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Apr 1995 11:32:14 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Neutralized I E



Di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nis Preston makes a valuable point regarding unstressed vowels in

unstressed syllables.



Those of us who have the "same" vowels in THEM and HIM differentiate 'em

in "Pay 'em" and "Pay 'im" -- so it ain't all phonology.  DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Apr 1995 to 13 Apr 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 16 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Peggy



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Apr 1995 02:21:43 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Peggy



Ok, I give up. Wayne, I was not questioning the phonetic shift from Meg to

Peg, well ok, yes I was, but NOT because I think it is wrong. It just feels

to me, for some reason, that there is more to this than meets the lips.



I'll pass these thoughts on to the Peggy I was sharing this with at work and

shut up. Although speaking of Peggy, what sayeth the resident ADS-L Peggy?





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Apr 1995 to 14 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 68 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Peggy

 2. need of gerunds

 3. zinc



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 15 Apr 1995 02:35:08 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Peggy



Peggy, Polly, etc have been alternate forms of Margaret etc. for a

long, long time -- well before contemporary sound substitutions.

They're in English as well as early American traditions.

                            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 15 Apr 1995 01:42:59 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: need of gerunds



  Now I'm doubting my own recollections. Several have written that "X needs

  a washing" is grammatical in their dialects. Is "X needs washing" grammatical

  in the dialects of anybody? I'm not alone out here, am I?



Yo. (Illinois/California, parents Indiana.)



    = =

Donald Lance cites

  Ozark Airlines (taken over by TWA) = Krazo Airlines



Where was it so called? I never heard that in my hometown

(served by Slozark at CMI Willard).



jmiller adds:

  Then, of course, came the purely fictional airlines of standup comics, towit:

     Bob Newhart - The Grace L. Ferguson Airlines and Storm Door Co.

     Lenny Bruce - Non-Skeddo Airlines

  Probably others?



the Verrifast company of Luigi & Dino Vercotti



    = =

ObFood: Wayne Glowka wrote:

  . . . . The coconut is cracked by

  heating it in the oven. What would the microwave do to it?



Well, it might cause the liquid to boil -- which is what makes popcorn.



Dad used to take a coconut out to the patio and fling it against a

cinderblock wall. He called this "the hallowed time-tested method."

He being a physicist, I'm surprised he never hit on the oven technique.



    = =

   On the euphemistic frontal stressing of the planet, though, the

  alternative--replacing "Your Anus" with "Urinous"--doesn't completely

  solve the problem.



Across the pond it probably does -- you know how they pronounce "urinal"?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 15 Apr 1995 16:28:19 -0400

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: zinc



A number of Cajuns use "zinc" for "sink," too--it's attested in the

1930's-'40's--though I always thought it was part of a French rather

than an English phenomenon.           Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Apr 1995 to 15 Apr 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 31 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Meg/Peg



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 16 Apr 1995 09:13:11 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Meg/Peg



 Margaret--[trunc.]-- Meg-- Peg--[dimin.]-- Peggy

 

 As in

 

 Mary-- Molly-- Polly

 

 There seems to be a tendency for stops to replace nasals (as above) or

liquids

 (as in Richard-- Dick, Robert-- Bob) or of course fricatives

(Theodore-- Ted)

 in this process of hypocoristicism...

 

 Best, Laurence-- Larry



I can see the sense of the above, but I don't believe it is correct. I

remember reading years ago about either a Princess Margaret or Queen Margaret

whose name was eventually transformed to the shortened Peg. It had nothing to

do with vocal shifts. There was another reason, but I don't remember what it

was. It was a logical reason concerning word derivation rather than vocal

derivation. I know this doesn't give a whole lot of information. But I

remember at the time saying to myself, "Aha, that makes sense." Maybe this

will help jog someone else's memory.



--Yvette



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Apr 1995 to 16 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 36 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. need of gerunds

 2. zinc



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Apr 1995 00:45:47 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: need of gerunds



Anton Sherwood posted several questions, and devoted listers mus respond to

one and all except that I'm not responding to all.



Krazo Airlines flew in and out of Columbia Regional Airport in Missouri.

I never heard of Slozark, but Greene and Boone Counties would have different

traditions out of spite if not in fact.



Before we took a hammer to a coconut, we tediously poked holes in the eyes

to drain the milk before busting it up. It was always dissappointing when

we got a coconun that didn't have milk for the liquid in coconut cream pies.



I've had second thoughts about my posted recipe for ambrosia. I can remember

a serious argument about whether it should have whipped cream, or even

whipping cream. Out neighbor objected to innovations. Just fruit, and

(obligatory) coconut. This was in the 1940s when you got whipping cream

from a cream separater, not from a paper carton. The faster you turned the

handle the richer the cream.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Apr 1995 15:59:49 -0300

From:  Michelle Landry  eml0129[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMONCTON.CA 

Subject: Re: zinc



Cathy B, you are right about "zinc" being part of a French phenomenon.

I come from a French community and most of the French people I know do

use the word "zinc".



        Michelle Landry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Apr 1995 to 17 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 210 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [p*tut] (4)

 2.  No subject given 

 3. [p*tut] and more

 4. Sweet Patootie  (PG-13)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 10:58:19 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: [p*tut]



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 19-Apr-1995 10:52am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: [p*tut]





    Here's a local term that I've heard for years but don't know its origin:

[p*tut] with * for schwa. It's always transparent in meaning--"I don't give a

horse's patoot for that." "He's a real horse's patoot." "He got kicked in the

patoot." &c. There's a long tradition of Ohio Valley French (with cities like

Marietta--named after Marie Antoinette--and Gallipolis (pronounced [gael*polis]

with accent on the last syllable)) and also a goodly number of Italians. Any

ideas for the origin of [p*tut]?

                    David

David Bergdahl Ohio Univ/Athens    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

"between Appalachia and the midwest"







Received: 19-Apr-1995 10:58am



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:02:56 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



I've never heard 'patoot', but I'm quite familiar with its diminutive, which is

usually found in the context of "You bet your sweet patootie." (I somehow

associate this with the late 60's TV show Laugh-In.) I always assumed the

patootie is, in fact, the human hindquarters, but I'm unsure on the derivation.

It does not seem likely to be an ablaut variant of '[sweet] potato'.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 11:30:59 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



Larry,



Are you sure you remember this right? I remember only "You bet your

sweet bippie" on Laugh-In, whereas I think I remember hearing a song once

long ago (pre-Laugh-In) called "Sweet Patootie Pie," which clearly

referred to the dessert sweet potato pie.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR





On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  I've never heard 'patoot', but I'm quite familiar with its diminutive, which is

  usually found in the context of "You bet your sweet patootie." (I somehow

  associate this with the late 60's TV show Laugh-In.) I always assumed the

  patootie is, in fact, the human hindquarters, but I'm unsure on the derivation.

  It does not seem likely to be an ablaut variant of '[sweet] potato'.

 

  Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 15:34:51 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



On sweet patooties, Peter McGraw writes:



 Larry,



 Are you sure you remember this right? I remember only "You bet your

 sweet bippie" on Laugh-In, whereas I think I remember hearing a song once

 long ago (pre-Laugh-In) called "Sweet Patootie Pie," which clearly

 referred to the dessert sweet potato pie.



______________

No, as I mentioned I'm not at all sure, and Peter is no doubt right that I'm

guilty of blending "You bet your sweet bippy" from Laugh-In with 'patootie',

but I'm quite sure I remember "You bet your sweet patootie" from SOMEwhere.

Can anyone else rack their brains? DARE's 'P' volume isn't out yet, so I

can't be called on the carpet for not checking there first.



Larry

McMinnville, OR





On Wed, 19 Apr 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  I've never heard 'patoot', but I'm quite familiar with its diminutive, which

is

  usually found in the context of "You bet your sweet patootie." (I somehow

  associate this with the late 60's TV show Laugh-In.) I always assumed the

  patootie is, in fact, the human hindquarters, but I'm unsure on the

derivation.

  It does not seem likely to be an ablaut variant of '[sweet] potato'.

 

  Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:57:42 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: [p*tut] and more



A few reactions to the p*tut query, and some questions of my own:



P*TUT  Have never heard this term. In its place, the words DUPA and

    BENINNY were used in my neighborhood (family?), i.e.

    Cleveland, lower-class Irish-German background, Slovenian

    neighborhood, 1950s - 1960s. The word DUPA had a more

    general application (like the similar word DUFF): Get up off

    your dupa and do a little work right now? BENINNY, on the

    other hand, was usually yoked to a horse to produce phrases

    like: Don't be such a horse's beninny.



P*TOOTIE  While p*tut was unknown, the word P*TOOTIE was common in

    our house, and I have always thought it rather widespread as

    a silly slang word for potatoes. Seems to me I've heard Ned

    Flanders say it on The Simpsons, too, but I could be wrong. I

    put it in the same category of odd home words as, e.g.,

    SPOOGHALONIE for spaghetti, MICKEY D's for McDonalds, etc.







I'm also wondering if certain words that I grew up with 25-30 years

ago are still in use today. How about BALONEY, or BALONEY SAUCE,

meaning rubbish, empty talk, bullshit? Or SHANK'S MARE, meaning

walking (as opposed to getting a ride)? Any comments?



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 18:57:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



Larry Horn surely confuses his patootie with his bippy (which was the sweet

thing you bet on Laugh-In). Your sweet patootie was one were were sweet on. I

never thought about it before, but I always associated it with a malformation

of petunia.

Y'alls sweet patootie up hyar in Michigan - Di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 20:28:18 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Sweet Patootie  (PG-13)



   David Bergdahl and ADSers:

    I found the following citations in the Peter Tamony Collection. I

   have omitted more recent materials.

    From "Indoor Sports" by TAD (Thomas A. Dorgan) [syndicated cartoon]

   "Sweet Patootie--did you see the face on Ada--she looks as though she

   was in a gas attack without a mask." San Francisco Call & Post, 4

   February 1918.  "Say, Dan, I want you to take a slant at my gal's

   photos--you ain't seen 'em yet, have ya?--she's some sweet patootie."

   Ibid., 13 January 1919.



    "Why Worry About Slang," American Speech, February 1928, "What do we

   call our women of today? . . . hot patootie, the calf's lesson in

   curves, sweet mamma, . . . "



    Song title "Hot Patootie Wedding Night" ca. 1929, cited in Jack

   Burton, The Blue Book of Broadway Musicals.



    Song title "I'm Wild About My Patootie" ca. 1932, Columbia Record

   Label, disc #14651-D. Vocals by Ora Alexander.



    Song title "Sweet Patootie" ca. 1939, Decca record label, disc #7429

   A. Sidney Bechet with Noble Sissle's Swingsters. Lyrics:

    Now, I know a lady, she lives down by the jail,

     Got a sign on the door, "Sweet patootie for sale".

    Sweet patootie only thing she craves,

     Sweet patootie, it just won't behave

     Sweet patootie gonna carry her to her grave.

   [There is more, but perhaps this is too much]



   E. E. Cummings, "Exit the Boob," Esquire, volume 3, no. 6 (June 1935),

   p. 33. This article by Cummings contains "This guy says just kick the

   dictators in the patoot, boys, and live, live, live your life."





    It is interesting that the earliest cites come from TAD. In

   Leonard Zwilling, A TAD Lexicon, 1993, neither patootie, nor sweet

   patootie, is included. Perhaps this is a term that was overlooked.



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Apr 1995 to 19 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 19 messages totalling 417 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [p*tut] (6)

 2. [p*tut] and more (3)

 3. dupa

 4. Inclusive Language (3)

 5. Patoot

 6. Joking Names for Airlines

 7. South East Missouri

 8. sauce & shank

 9. South East Missouri /IG-nert/

 10. "patootie"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 01:07:08 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



 

  Larry Horn surely confuses his patootie with his bippy (which was the sweet

  thing you bet on Laugh-In). Your sweet patootie was one were were sweet on. I

  never thought about it before, but I always associated it with a malformation

  of petunia.

  Y'alls sweet patootie up hyar in Michigan - Di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

 





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Apr 1995 09:49:44 -1000

From:  Terry Pratt  tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



Known to Toronto college students in 60's in form 'horse's patooey.'



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 05:44:37 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: [p*tut] and more



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



On patoot: I forgot to mention that my wife--a psychologist who works in

Marietta and Athens--recently heard [p*tu] from a client, which makes it sound

more frenchy.



[dufIs] is, I believe, Polish for contemptible fellow or somesuch insult; I've

heard it from a 40ish Italian-American from Buffalo.

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 07:55:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: dupa



Nie, nie,nie! A doofus (see DARE Vol. 1, p. 136) is definitely not Polish for

your backside. That is your dupa. A doofus is more often, according to

DARE, a dolt, stupid person, etc...

How about a new proverbial

-not to know your dupa from a doofus.

P.S.: To Polish speakers. Of course I know that dupa may be used for a stupid

person. It even has the nicely expanded form (which refers exclusively to a

stupid person rather than your backside) - dupa wolowa (literally beef's ass).

Since the report here was about an Italian-American from a richly

Polishly-endowed community (Buffalo), I do not in the least reject

cross-linguistic contamination of one sort or the other. E.g.,

Italian-American hears dupa for ass from Poles, transfers sense to doofus

learned in another area. [Don't overlook duff in all this; apparently a

northern English term which may have played a role in all this backside -

stupid person d+V+labial(+laxV)(+s).]

Friendly South Midlands Polish speaker,

di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu or preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:35:25 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



OK, so I was wrong about the Laugh-In connection, but it appears that (at least

from the time of the e. e. cummings quote) a (horse's) patoot(ie) was indeed

the hindquarters of the relevant animal, hence 'you bet your sweet patootie'.

Here's an interesting speculation on its source from someone off-list (Barbara

Abbott, Michigan State U.):



 I do remember "You bet your sweet patootie", and I never saw Laugh-In.

 (I've also heard "You bet your sweet bippie" though too -- maybe from

 people who did see Laugh-In.) Anyway, I always thought patootie meant rear

 end, but maybe there's another etymology. That first phrase (from David

 Bergdahl) about a horse's patoot made me think they were referring to road

 apples (similar (in substance if not form) to what we used to call "cow

 pies"), and why not call them horse potatoes (they look more like potatoes

 than apples anyway!)? From there ("horse's patootie") it would be a

 natural blunder to reconstrue "patootie"/"patoot" as rear end, and

 something worthy of betting.



Sounds good to me. And let it no longer be said that I don't know my bippy

from my patootie.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:38:29 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inclusive Language



I very much need help on the concept of "inclusive language," other than

what is in the NCTE "Guidlines" (1985). Specifically, I would like to

know about:



1. Federal, local, or state statutes affecting inclusive language;



2. Bibliography.



Thanks for your help. Please e-mail me privately rather tan glom up the

list.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:57:02 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Inclusive Language



Tim asked for private postings about inclusive languages, but I shall

post to the list, partly because I would also be interested in

additional bibliography.



As it happens, I recently posted to another list (Anglican) a longish,

though fairly informal essay on the topic, "Inclusive Lanuage Issues in

Liturgy and Lectionary." After some response on the list, I then

posted a shorter postscript. In a few days, I'll post another shor

essay on additional responses. My point: I'll be glad to send the original

posting to any individual who wants it. It's not completely up-to-date;

I wrote it in 1988 and revised in slightly in 1991 (for instance, it

does not include reference to Penelope 1990). I ask that others

with biblio post to the list -- or at least copy me.



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 09:18:31 EDT

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: [p*tut] and more



Baloney is still in use for nonsense or empty talk; I've never

heard "baloney sauce." I use "shank's mare" occasionally, but

am conscious of it as an archaism.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:41:03 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



 OK, so I was wrong about the Laugh-In connection, but it appears that (at least

 from the time of the e. e. cummings quote) a (horse's) patoot(ie) was indeed

 the hindquarters of the relevant animal, hence 'you bet your sweet patootie'.





But "sweet patootie" can also be a term of endearment, like a baby-talk

"sweet potato."



There was an airline ad campaign from the '70s called "Take Me Along," in

which singing, dancing wives begged their husbands to take them along on

business trips. "I love ya, sweet patootie, but my office is my duty!" the

men would sing in reply. The airline offered free or cheap seats for

"wives" (note seventies assumption that wives don't have jobs) accompanying

husbands on business trips.



Incidentally the whole offer was a failure because husbands, it seemed,

didn't _want_ the option of taking wives n these trips . . .



Kate Catmull      kate [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:41:42 +0800

From:  elliot mcintire  vcgeg002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUEY.CSUN.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut] and more



On Thu, 20 Apr 1995, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:



  Baloney is still in use for nonsense or empty talk; I've never

  heard "baloney sauce." I use "shank's mare" occasionally, but

  am conscious of it as an archaism.



I hear "Baloney" from time to time, but have not heard "baloney sauce"

since I was a camp counselor in the early 60s (except as a kind of in

family joke since my wife counseled at the same camp).



Shank's mare was used occasionally by my father, now long deceased, but

somehow he conveyed that he recognized it as an archaic usage even then.



Elliot McIntire

emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:23:01 -0500

From:  Grant Barrett  gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KB.COM 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



 RE  [p*tut]

A more current reference to patootie would be Oliver North's very public

statement before the election that he could Rgive a ratUs patootieS about

something or other. He obviously used it as meaning ratUs ass (if youUll pardon

the indelicate language).



--------------------------------------

Date: 4/20/95 9:04 AM

To: Grant Barrett

From: American Dialect Society

OK, so I was wrong about the Laugh-In connection, but it appears that (at least

from the time of the e. e. cummings quote) a (horse's) patoot(ie) was indeed

the hindquarters of the relevant animal, hence 'you bet your sweet patootie'.

Here's an interesting speculation on its source from someone off-list (Barbara

Abbott, Michigan State U.):



 I do remember "You bet your sweet patootie", and I never saw Laugh-In.

 (I've also heard "You bet your sweet bippie" though too -- maybe from

 people who did see Laugh-In.) Anyway, I always thought patootie meant rear

 end, but maybe there's another etymology. That first phrase (from David

 Bergdahl) about a horse's patoot made me think they were referring to road

 apples (similar (in substance if not form) to what we used to call "cow

 pies"), and why not call them horse potatoes (they look more like potatoes

 than apples anyway!)? From there ("horse's patootie") it would be a

 natural blunder to reconstrue "patootie"/"patoot" as rear end, and

 something worthy of betting.



Sounds good to me. And let it no longer be said that I don't know my bippy

from my patootie.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 12:01:14 -0500

From:  Marjorie Shustak  mshustak[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EM.COM 

Subject: Patoot



I think that, in the TV series "Alice," Flo used to call Mel a "horse's

patoot." Does my memory serve correctly?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 17:29:36 +0200

From:  Raimund Schiess  schiess[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUD.UNI-FRANKFURT.DE 

Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines



Three more name twisters, just in from subscribers to a newsgroup

called "rec.travel.air":



TACA = Take A Coffin Along



EL AL = Every Landings Always Late



USAir = U Shall Arrive In Regret



                  ---Raimund Schiess



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 11:43:19 -0500

From:  Grant Barrett  gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KB.COM 

Subject: South East Missouri



 South East Missouri

My father's family hails from southeast Missouri and they have some

pronunciations you might find interesting. Please pardon my approximation of the

sounds; I don't do this for a living.



-- pliers ... /PLOW-erz/ My father uses this pronunciation exclusively.



-- St. Louis ... /SANT loo-is/ They pronounce the Saint in St. Charles, St.

Genevieve and St. anything the same way. For the record, nobody I know says

Saint Looey.



-- ornery ... /AHN-ree/ This one is so common among family, friends, etc. that

I suspect many of them don't know that it can be pronounced any other way. I do

know that /AHN-ree/ has a different nuance than /OR-ner-ee/, the former meaning

intentional or curable stubbornness and the latter meaning just plain born that

way or stubborn beyond all help. See the next item for a related pronunciation

and definition split.



-- ignorant /IG-nert/ This pronunciation usually means eccentric or stupid

behavior often intended by the perpetrator to raise dander in onlookers; or

obstinacy about a point in contention, even in the face of overwhelming evidence

to the contrary. /IG-nor-ant/ is used when the textbook definition of ignorant

is intended.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 15:26:37 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



 Then there's the song from "Rocky Horror Picture Show," "Whatever Happened

To Saturday Night(Hot Patootie Bless My Soul)," the one sung by a very young

Meat Loaf. Just thought it was worth mentioning.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 13:40:22 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: sauce & shank



Checking in from Arkansas   California area: horse's patoot - yes; patootie -

yes, in (only dimly remembered) patootie pie. baloney - yes; but without sauce.

And most surprising, from farm folk, no remembrance of 'shank's mare' at all,

with or without sense of archaism.



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:52:24 +0300

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: South East Missouri /IG-nert/



 -- ignorant /IG-nert/ This pronunciation usually means eccentric or stupid

 behavior often intended by the perpetrator to raise dander in onlookers; or

 obstinacy about a point in contention, even in the face of overwhelming

 evidence

 to the contrary. /IG-nor-ant/ is used when the textbook definition of ignorant

 is intended.



An ex-girlfriend of mine, a college-educated black woman in her

mid-thirties born and raised in Clovis, New Mexico, often uses the

pronounciation /IG-n*nt/ in the same manner. She also uses the "correct"

pronunciation for the textbook definition.



Stewart



_________________________________________

Stewart Allensworth Mason

 masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu 

PO Box 4056

Portales NM 88130



***Coolest Guitar Sounds Ever***

1. "Dumbbells"--Mission of Burma (Roger Miller)

2. "Too Much"--The Bats (whoever their guitarist is)

3. "Counting the Beat"--The Swingers (Phil Judd)

4. "Faron"--Prefab Sprout (Paddy McAloon)

5. "Matte Kudasai"--King Crimson (Adrian Belew)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 17:10:15 EDT

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: "patootie"



The first thing I thought of when I saw "patootie" was a bit

from _The Rocky Horror Picture Show_, a song lyric (sung by

Eddie, played by the musician Meat Loaf) that goes

    Hot patootie, bless my soul

    I really love that rock and roll.



Unfortunately, there's nothing to make it clear what, if anything,

patootie refers to other than being something to swear by.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Apr 1995 16:58:23 -0700

From:  Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inclusive Language



Tim (and Bethany):

I've just come off a quarter of teaching Language and Gender. On the

issue of inclusive language, I still think the Francine Frank and Paula

Treichler _Language, Gender, and Professional Language_ (MLA, 1989) is

the most thorough treatment of common problems and solutions. But see also



Erlich, Susan and Ruth King. "Feminist Meanings and Sexist Speech

    Communities." _Proceedings of 2nd Berkeley Women & Lang. Conf.

    Eds. Kira Hall, Mary Bucholtz, and Birch Moonwoman. Berkeley:

    Women & Lang. Group, U of California, 1992. 100-107.

Greene, Kathryn and Donald L. Rubin. "Effects of Gender Inclusive/

    Exclusive Language in Religious Discourse." _Journal of

    Language and Social Psychology_ 10.2 (1991): 81-98.

Miller, Casey and Kate Swift. _The Handbook of Nonsexist Writing_.

    2nd ed. (NY: Harper, 1988).

Mitchell, Felicia. "College English Handbooks and Pronomial Usage

    Guidelines: Mixed Reactions to Nonsexist Language." _Women

    and Language_ 15 (1992): 37-42.

Rubin, Donald L., Kathryn Greene, and Deidra Schneider. "Adopting

    Gender-Inclusive Language Reforms: Diachronic and Synchronic

    Variation." _Journal of Language and Social Psychology_ 13.2

    (1994): 91-114.



And Deborah Cameron's revised edition of _Feminism and Linguistic Theory_

(2nd ed., NY: St. Martin's, 1990) has some discussion of the "politics"

of insisting on inclusive language. I would be interested in knowing of

other citations on the subject, as I will teach the course again next spring.

Gail



_______________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall              stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

English, GN-30             (206) 685-2384

University of Washington        Seattle WA 98195



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Apr 1995 to 20 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 199 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Inclusive Language

 2. IG-nert

 3. put paid

 4. [p*tut] and more

 5. SE Missouri pronunciations

 6. eponyms and webster

 7. [p*tut]

 8. Joking Names for Airlines

 9. South East Missouri /IG-nert/



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 00:22:10 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inclusive Language



Bethany Dumas reported a mini lecture on liturgical inclusive-language.

I would like to see the mini-essay. I just had a round of letters with

the local Catholic Bishop and the Commission on Liturgy (or something

like that) on the doxology:

  With Him, and In Him etc.

     vs



  With Christ and in Christ, etc



I was told that the antecedent was perfectly clear, thank you, and I

could just butt out.



Needless to say, Canadians who use English are saying Mass much

differently than U.S. English speakers. So much for the vernacular!

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 08:37:11 -0500

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: IG-nert



You mean there's another pronunciation?! Aw shucks, I feel so ignernt. We

grew up (native of La and Tenn) saying it that way in jest and otherwise.

But when I say it it's /IG nernt/ with a vestige of the alveolar nasal

before a reduced stop. I'd have to think about it, but that nasal may be

voiceless (not uncommon around here for word-final nasals to only be

partially voiced).









--

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:16:52 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: put paid



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 21-Apr-1995 10:14am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: put paid





Twice in recent weeks The Economist has used the phrase "put paid" and last week

it showed up in The New Republic. Is this expression crossing the waters?

                    David

David Bergdahl Ohio Univ/Athens    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU







Received: 21-Apr-1995 10:16am



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 10:14:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut] and more



At first I rejected balogna sauce, but now I remember that we said bologna

sausage as the emphatic form for bologna (i.e., nonsense, silly talk,

bullshit).

di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 08:14:40 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: SE Missouri pronunciations



My Ozarks mom happens to be sitting right here as the message about "pliers,

St. Louis, ornery and ignorant" comes through, and she validates all those

forms mostly as given. But for instance, her 'pliers' is more like /pla:rz/;

Saint/Sant has a nasalized vowel; personally, I didn't know there was a

three-syllable word 'or-ner-y' until high school, but I think I learned very

quickly in my first public-school experience (junior high -- Christian school

before that) that I was no longer just 2-syllable ig-nert [no final nazalization

anywhere, I'm still surprised to hear!] but now 3-syllable ig-nor-ant!



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 14:43:13 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: eponyms and webster



Here's the last word on eponym, according to the 1995 ed. of the Random

House Webster's Dictionary:



sense 2, dated from 1840-50: "a word based on or derived from a person's name."



And BTW, this new dictionary has the distinction of being the first to

define as one sense of Webster: informal, "A dictionary of the English

language."



Way to go, Jesse Scheidlower!



Dennis (the eponymous one)

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:17:47 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: [p*tut]



On Thu, 20 Apr 1995 08:41, Katherine Catmull writes:



  There was an airline ad campaign from the '70s called "Take Me Along," in

  which singing, dancing wives begged their husbands to take them along on

  business trips. "I love ya, sweet patootie, but my office is my duty!" the



The song is actually from a musical of the late '50s, also called

"Take Me Along" (based, if memory serves, on the stage play "Ah,

Wilderness"). I don't remember whether the line cited above is in

the musical or not, so it may have been introduced by the ad writers,

but it is certainly in the spirit of the original. The musical is

set rather earlier in the century ('20s? 'teens?), so words like

"patootie" might have been adopted to suggest the era of bee's knees

and cat's pajamas.



The point of all this being that although the ad ran in the '70s,

I think "patootie" was kind of a fossil by then.



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:13:20 EDT

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines



Those of us with long memories de-acronymize USAir as

"Unfortunately still Allegheny in reality." (Allegheny

was a not-very-good regional carrier, which was combined

with another not-very-good regional carrier, Mohawk, to

form the basis of USAir.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 11:06:49 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: South East Missouri /IG-nert/



I'm surprised that so far no one has mentioned the usage of this word in

Black English. The first time I ever heard the word at all was from my

grandmother's maid in Oklahoma in the 1940s, and it seemed clear from the

context that it meant simply "rude". I learned the standard meaning only

when I used the word in my grandmother's presence to mean "rude" and was

hastily corrected in tones that gently but clearly conveyed to me that

there was something socially unacceptable about using it in that sense.

The next time I heard the word in the meaning "rude" was in the 1980s in

Ohio, again from an African American, leading me to believe that it had

been alive and well all that time and was geographically widespread.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Apr 1995 to 21 Apr 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 30 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Names for airlines



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 22 Apr 1995 11:45:47 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Names for airlines



   Date:  Fri, 21 Apr 1995 09:13:20 EDT

   From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

   Subject: Re: Joking Names for Airlines

  

   Those of us with long memories de-acronymize USAir as

   "Unfortunately still Allegheny in reality." (Allegheny

   was a not-very-good regional carrier, which was combined

   with another not-very-good regional carrier, Mohawk, to

                        ^^^^^^

   form the basis of USAir.)

  

   Vicki Rosenzweig

   vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

   New York, NY

  

   ------------------------------

Ah, good old Slohawk, aka Mopigeon. I haven't thought about them for years.

The story was that they landed in cow pastures throughout upstate NY, and

once, coming into Elmira (en route from Ithaca to NYC, don't ask!) with no

runway visible...



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskin.yale.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Apr 1995 to 22 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 86 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Anodyne Expletives (4)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 23 Apr 1995 05:47:50 EDT

From:  Orin Hargraves  100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Anodyne Expletives



My great aunt (b. late 19th c., SW Louisiana) had a handful of

charming expressions of surprise that she used in situations where

a (less refined) speaker today might more likely say "Holy S***!" or

"Jesus Christ!". Her favorites were "For Garden Seed!" and "Mother

of Pearl!" as well as the more common "Heavenly Days!". I wonder



a) are there many expressions of this kind?

b) do they have geographical boundaries?

c) are they (becoming) obsolete in American speech?



All comments welcome, with thanks --





Orin Hargraves



100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com



6 St. Philip's Rd.

London E8 3BP

ENGLAND



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 23 Apr 1995 10:05:48 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



 My great aunt (b. late 19th c., SW Louisiana) had a handful of

 charming expressions of surprise that she used in situations where

 a (less refined) speaker today might more likely say "Holy S***!" or

 "Jesus Christ!". Her favorites were "For Garden Seed!" and "Mother

 of Pearl!" as well as the more common "Heavenly Days!". I wonder



My mother always says what used to sound to me like "succapuppyay!" to

express extreme displeasure, frustration or anger. I later discovered she

had picked it up from the nuns who taught her as a child in Minneapolis in

the late 30s and early 40s. At the time she thought it was some horrific

nun curse, but it turns out to be "sac-a-papier," French for "paper sack."

She and the nuns find it particularly satisfying and venomous-sounding to

pronounce, however. I have no idea how widespread this is--not very, I

would imagine.



My mother also says "son-of-a-moose!", which I believe she picked up while

working in Yellowstone circa 1947.



Kate Catmull              kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 23 Apr 1995 11:40:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



Euphemistic mutilation seems almost universal. It is especially effective, I

believe, when the lsitener is held in suspense (will the taboo pop out or

not?).

When we were the happy wags we were in secondary school around Louisville KY

we used to mock-stutter fu- fu- fu- fu- fu and then say Forget it (which

should also tell you something about our vowel in Forget, by the way).

But my all-time favorite the the Polish Kurrrrrrrrr (in which a trilled /r/ is

indefinitely held, only to be ended with -cza (i.e., kurcza, or chicken)). The

listener, of course, has been waiting for Kurwa (whore) - which is used

exclamatorily in Polish as it is with (or without) accompanying Shit in some

Romance languages (e.g., Port. Puta merda).

di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

or

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 23 Apr 1995 18:33:35 -0400

From:  Robert Aldridge  RobertA799[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



My grandmother, a staunch Methodist, wouldn't even say Oh, Lord. she changed

it to Oh, law! Or Lawsy have mercy! She considered darn, gosh, gee, etc.,

to be curse words. She once jumped all over my grandfather for saying

Gosh-a-Molly in front of the children.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Apr 1995 to 23 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 165 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. spelling of dufus (2)

 2. Anodyne Expletives (2)

 3. Doofus (2)

 4. ADS/SAMLA Second Call for Papers

 5. South East Missouri /IG-nert/

 6. SUBSCRIBE ADS-L



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 02:43:35 EDT

From:  kim mckinzey  74525.1614[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: spelling of dufus



I have a professional interest in the spelling of this word: Breathed says it's

Doofus. I think the proper etymology is from the Popeye character Dufus. I do

NOT accept the authority of any of the few dictionaries opining on the subject.



Anyone know the origin of this word?



rkm



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 23 Apr 1995 23:56:05 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: spelling of dufus



Only a doofus would reject the "authority of any of the few dictionaries

opining on the subject" without explaining why the dufus would reject the

lexicographical explanation (even if it is to say "they don't know

diddlely about their proffession, which of course could apply to any of a

number of us Seekers of Truth)

Cheers,

tlc



On Mon, 24 Apr 1995, kim mckinzey wrote:



  I have a professional interest in the spelling of this word: Breathed says it's

  Doofus. I think the proper etymology is from the Popeye character Dufus. I do

  NOT accept the authority of any of the few dictionaries opining on the subject.

 

  Anyone know the origin of this word?

 

  rkm

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:33:30 -0400

From:  "miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]newton.franklincoll.edu"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



  All I know for sure is that I often use "Mother of Pearl," or its more

emphatic alter-ego "Mother of F------ Pearl" but have no idea where I picked it

up. I just know I've never been to SW Louisiana; most of my life has been spent

here in Indiana, although I could have heard it in either Charleston, West

Virginia, Coshocton, Ohio, or Washington, D.C., the only other places I've lived.

  I apparently heard someone use it, became enamored of it, and dredged it up

from the wrinkles of my brain some years later?



                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 11:55:02 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Doofus



The question of the proper spelling of doofus is a good one. I would not have

thought about it being spelled dufus. Doofus looks right, IMHO. I vote for

that one!  g 



While we're on this topic, I had an occasion to attempt to spell diffugeldy

and found myself trying to spell a word I'd heard often and knew full well its

definition, but previously had never tried to spell it! Has anyone else on

the list heard this term which refers to messed up, snafu'd, and so on, but

with a note of whimsy. "That's all diffugeldy" or "It's all diffugeldy"





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 10:58:16 -0500

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



This thread reminds me of the poem my father brought home from work one day

in the mid 60s. The trick was saying at as fast as possible. Precocious

elementary student that I was, I promptly memorized it so that I could

recite in class. OOPS! The phone call home questioned where I had learned

such verbiage. Here 'tis:

    Pies, cheeses, crust,

    Got damp in the cellar.

    Go, by Godfrey,

    And get Dan's hat

    That got damaged by fire.



I was also to slow to catch on when my sister returned from college and

exclaimed "Bear Stories" whenever a misfortune occured.

   Lew Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]saunix.sau.edu 

St. Ambrose University

English and Academic Support

Davenport, IA 52803

319 324-8266



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 17:51:54 -0400

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: ADS/SAMLA Second Call for Papers



The South Atlantic Modern Language Association (SAMLA) will meet at the

Mariott Marquis in Atlanta November 3-5. To present a paper in the ADS

section, you must be a member of both SAMLA and ADS. You may present one

paper only.



May 1 is the deadline for submitting abstracts. Send abstract to



 Connie Eble

 English Dept., CB#3520

 U. of North Carolina

 Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3520



 email: cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu



 fax: 919-962-3520



Please don't forget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 15:05:54 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Doofus



I vote for "dufus", as in "DUmb FU...."s.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 19:30:36 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: South East Missouri /IG-nert/



Interesting line here. I'm familiar with "ignorant" in the meaning

described from Jamaican Creole, eg:

    im jos gwaan ignarant      "she just acted ignorant"

or   im ignarant mi

where it's a verb. It means something like "rude" as Peter said, but

can even be "abus(iv)e": how a person acts who hasn't been brought up

right (no HT, to return to an earlier strain). Cassidy, in "Jamaica

Talk" (1961), calls it "a frequent folk malapropism for 'indignant'"

and indeed it shares some of that feeling. But I think FGC may be

wrong on this: the opposite of ignorance is education, which is

invested with all kinds of wonderful properties in Jamaica including

class, taste and good behavior. (If only it were true!)

    This is an interesting case of sharing across the diaspora...

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Apr 1995 21:20:59 -0500

From:  FRANKHS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JMUVAX1.BITNET

Subject: SUBSCRIBE ADS-L



ANY LITERATURE YOU CAN SEND WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

            THANKYOU,

                HEIDI FRANK



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Apr 1995 to 24 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 149 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Anodyne expletives

 2. spelling of dufus

 3. doofus

 4. new member

 5. diffucalty

 6. Anodyne Expletives

 7. "Heartland" English (2)

 8. Why

 9. had've



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 00:18:20 EDT

From:  elaine  EWGREEN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Anodyne expletives



   My mother always used "sugar foot" in front of us kids, but would

occasionally slip up and actually say shit instead. She grew up on the

eastern shore of Maryland, but spent all of her adult life in the

suburbs of D.C. and Baltimore. I wonder if anyone else can place a

similar expression in the area.



Elaine Green

ewgreen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 00:45:21 EDT

From:  kim mckinzey  74525.1614[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: spelling of dufus



So, if the word is Polish (do we have more evidence?), how DOES one choose the

Anglicization of a Polish word?



The problem is, all the dictionaries to opine are devoted to slang (or

regionalisms: yes, I saw the DARE cite; thank you, David). I therefore contend

the spelling is not yet decided. I hope to do so by getting it into the

appellate literature.



rkm



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 07:41:46 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: doofus



Lighter's dictionary of slang (Random House) says 'doofus' and dufus' are

variants. He suggests that it originated as a play on 'goofus'.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 10:29:16 -0400

From:  Maria Louise Chaffin  mc208188[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: new member



Hi!

My name is Maria and I am a first year graduate student in Hearing and Speech

Sciences at Ohio University. I have always been interested in the various

dialects that are used in America and I am looking forward to hearing what the

members of this list discuss. Since I grew up in Southeastern Ohio I am very

familiar with the Appalachian dialect. If anyone has any specific questions

or comments about this American dialect I would really like to hear from you.



E-mail address mc208188[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu



                    Thanks,

                        Maria



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 12:02:16 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: diffucalty



DARE's entry uses "diffucalty" for the headword, with "defewgelty" and

"diffugalty" as variants. We assumed them to be variants of "difficulty."

Quotes are from 1958, 1960, 1978 (all oral or from private correspondence).

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 15:39:31 -0400

From:  "(Jerry Miller)"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



  I stand corrected on my earlier comments on "Mother of Pearl" - a colleague

has just jogged my mind back to reality when he said that expression was one

of W. C. Fields' "sanitized" movie curses (w. Godfrey Daniel & Shivering

Shinola). I am now fairly sure that is where I picked it up originally, or

from an old newsroom colleague of mine who knew ever line Fields ever

uttered.

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 17:03:19 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: "Heartland" English



I am currently writing a review. basically I think it's an excellent

piece of work. Does anyone out there have any comments he/she'd like to

see in print? I'll credit you if I haven't said it already--first draft

is done.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 17:19:35 -0500

From:  Grant Barrett  gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KB.COM 

Subject: Why



    Reply to:  Why

What can you tell me about the use of the word "why" in the following sentences?

Far as I can tell it's an expression of knowing astonishment or mild disbelief.

My grandmother from southeast Missouri uses it.



"Why, you should know better than that" or "Why what are you doing?"







Grant Barrett

Kirshenbaum Bond & Partners

Computer Specialist

Freelance Writer

gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kb.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 21:53:12 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "Heartland" English



Bob Wachal said: "I am currently writing a review."



A review of WHAT, Bob?



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Apr 1995 20:38:42 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: had've



I heard someone speak this phrase today, "I wish had've gone...", in a context

that where "would've" would've been just as appropriate (forgive me, I

couldn't've resisted if I wanted to.)



Was this just a flaw in speech, or is it an observed extension to the

would've, could've, should've set?



-- Jim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Apr 1995 to 25 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 242 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Diffucalty

 2. Why (3)

 3. Why, and how we transcribe it (2)

 4. Reviewing "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH

 5. Anodyne Expletives

 6. had've (2)

 7. Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas

 8.  No subject given 



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 01:13:22 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Diffucalty



  DARE's entry uses "diffucalty" for the headword, with "defewgelty" and

  "diffugalty" as variants. We assumed them to be variants of "difficulty."

  Quotes are from 1958, 1960, 1978 (all oral or from private correspondence).

  Joan Hall



Thanks Ms. Hall, I wasn't that far off after all. The part of the word I

wasn't sure about was the 't' or 'd' sound at the end of the word. It appears

't' is the official phoneme.



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 07:49:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Why



I use exclamatory Why (Louisville area, 1940s-60-s) and have an interesting

phonological distinction. Like lots of old South Midlanders, I have the /hw/ -

/w/ distinction (whale and wail are different words), and exclamatory Why is

obligatorily /w/ for me, but interrogative Why is obligatorily /hw/. Funny

huh?

di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 08:27:58 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen Straight (Binghamton U,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Why



I too have voiceless /W/ in interrogative _why_ and voiced /w/ in

exclamatory _why_, though I didn't realize it till after reading Dennis

Preston's recent posting. Yeah, it is funny.



H STEPHEN STRAIGHT, Assoc Prof of Anthro & of Ling, Binghamton Univ (SUNY)

Director: Grad Studies in Anthro, Prog in Ling, and Lgs Across the Curric



    H. Stephen Straight - Linguistic Biodata

    Born in Ann Arbor, Michigan, 15 May 1943.

    Childhood caregivers all college English teachers (egad!).

    Early years (age 2-10) in downstate Illinois (Lincoln).

    Critical years (10-18) in Chicago (Hyde Park, 10-14) and

      Oak Park (14-18), Illinois--summers in Ann Arbor.

    College in Ann Arbor (18-22)--UMich BA in English &

      American Literature.

    Graduate school in Chicago (22-27)--UChgo MA and PhD in

      linguistics.

    Ever since (age 27- ) in upstate New York (Binghamton)

      --professing linguistics and anthropology.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 07:46:35 -0500

From:  Alan R Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Re: Why



The first usage is one that I've heard all my life--born in NYC in 1940s; my

mother, from Ithaca, NY, used it until strokes took her speech about 8 years

ago. My father, from NYC, uses it to this day. The second usage is

unfamiliar to me.



Alan Slotkin

ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 10:00:56 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Why, and how we transcribe it



I notice in the discussion of "why" that some people claim the initial

sound as two segments and the contrast as [hw-] vs. [w], and others (as

Labov in *Prin. of LC*) as one segment with the contrast between voiced

and unvoiced consonant, [w] vs. ["turned" w]. I myself had never thought

of this as a voiced/unvoiced contrast because I always thought that the

/w/ was +voice, whether or not an initial aspirate was present. Is there

acoustic or other evidence to support one side or the other? Or is the

difference in notation simply a residue of the segmental-phonology wars of

the 50s and 60s.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 09:02:11 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Reviewing "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH



I am currently writing a review of Tim FFazer's collection "HEARTLAND"

ENGLISH. If anyone has any thoughts to share, please let me know.



robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 12:53:24 -0500

From:  Grant Barrett  gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KB.COM 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



    Reply to:  RE  Anodyne Expletives

This will reveal a bit about me, but the only time I've heard most of these was

when I listened to old radio shows--as reruns in the 80s. Marion Jordan, who

played Molly McGee on the Fibber McGee and Molly show used to say "heavenly

days" and Jim Jordan, who played Fibber, was always spouting off with some clever

curse, usually alliterative, that evoked the anger and frustration of the

one-word, four-letter variety. Wish I could remember a few.



--------------------------------------

Date: 4/26/95 7:10 AM

To: Grant Barrett

From: American Dialect Society

  I stand corrected on my earlier comments on "Mother of Pearl" - a colleague

has just jogged my mind back to reality when he said that expression was one

of W. C. Fields' "sanitized" movie curses (w. Godfrey Daniel & Shivering

Shinola). I am now fairly sure that is where I picked it up originally, or

from an old newsroom colleague of mine who knew ever line Fields ever

uttered.

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 12:11:28 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: had've



DARE shows had've to be "widespread, but chiefly Sth, S Midl," with quotes

going back to 1798. (It's entered at have verb superscript 2.)

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 16:22:42 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: had've



Probably i should go home and check my Dare v.2 first. But in the

original citation, it seems like what's noted as "had've" could be

homophonous with reduced "would've" given monophthongization of /ay/:

    "I wish had've gone"

    /a: wIS' a:d[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]v gOn/

    "Ah wish ah'd've gone"

and maybe a little aspiration at the end of the "wish" sibilant. If it

most often occurs in South and S.Midland speakers this could often be

true for first person pronouns. Is it common with other subjects too?

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 17:55:09 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen Straight (Binghamton U,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Why, and how we transcribe it



As one of those who claim that the voiceless labiovelar glide ["turned"

W] differs (phonetically?/phonemically?) from a sequence of voiceless

glottal spirant and voiced labiovelar glide [hw], I feel obliged to

respond to Bill Kretzschmar's comment that he



  had never thought

  of this as a voiced/unvoiced contrast because I always thought that the

  /w/ was +voice, whether or not an initial aspirate was present. Is there

  acoustic or other evidence to support one side or the other? Or is the

  difference in notation simply a residue of the segmental-phonology wars of

  the 50s and 60s.



I hear two differences between the voiceless-segment versus the cluster

renditions, though I'll concede up front that they reside at the two

poles of a phonetic continuum, and that I know of no lexical contrast

that employs the two, so I guess they're allophones of a single phonemic

unit (whether a segment or a cluster). The two differences are those

implied by the transcriptional contrast: The voiceless glide is shorter

and induces initial voicelessness on a following vowel, while the

(longer) cluster exhibits voicing in the [w] portion with a clear

formant-transition voicing into the following vowel.



Sociolinguistically, though, my less-than-systematic conclusion is that

[hw] is found only in the speech of those for whom the w/wh contrast is

dead or dying, and only in words for which there exists a minimal pair

that they are trying to preserve (wail/whale, wet/whet, wile/while,

wine/whine, wit/whit, and, rarely, wen/when, wear/where,

weather/whether--the wh-words having been among the first to "lose their

h", so to speak).



Reactions invited!



H STEPHEN STRAIGHT, Assoc Prof of Anthro & of Ling, Binghamton Univ (SUNY)

Director: Grad Studies in Anthro, Prog in Ling, and Lgs Across the Curric

MAIL: Box 6000, Bing, NY 13902-6000; 24-hr vmail: 607-777-2824; fax: -2477

EMAIL:  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.bitnet  or  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 12:04:43 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas



I have an impression that the strictures on offensive speech that

govern American television might have been very productive in the

1980s of a new burst of euphemistic language. I don't remember

ever hearing words like scuzz bucket, scumbag, rat-breath, and so

forth before Hill Street Blues, which attempted to create a tough,

vulgar, 'realistic' street atmosphere without using any of the

seven (?) outlawed words. There was one character in particular,

Belcher (Belker?) -- the short, inarticulate, onion-eating, Jewish

cop who growled as often as he spoke -- who came out with these and

many other relatively euphemistic epithets. Andy Cszypowitz (?) of

NYPD Blue continues the tradition today, though with relatively fewer

constraints than the pioneers of the early 80s had to work under.



Does anyone else share this impression of the late blooming of a new,

harsher, euphemistic vocabulary of insult? Or did I just grow up too

much in the gutter, and it wasn't until getting away from the

projects that I encountered this softer, middle lexicon of prime time

vituperation?



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Apr 1995 21:41:37 -0500

From:  Seth Edward Johnson  sjohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



Growing up in my Mississippi,Alabama,and Tennessee home we used such

phrases as fixing to or I'm going to carry you somewhere.

Are these grammatically correct?

Seth



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Apr 1995 to 26 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 293 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Fixing to carry you (3)

 2.  No subject given 

 3. Reviewing "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH

 4. Dialect Novel (2)

 5. Bounced Mail (3)

 6. Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas

 7. SECOL Web Page

 8. Allen Walker Read



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 05:36:28 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Fixing to carry you



  Growing up in my Mississippi,Alabama,and Tennessee home we used such

  phrases as fixing to or I'm going to carry you somewhere.

  Are these grammatically correct?



They're grammatical in my dialect.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 07:59:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



A sentence like I am fixing to carry you to Louisville (e.g., take you there

by auto) is not only correct, it is impeccable.

di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 08:17:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Fixing to carry you



In fact I am fixing to flat out haul off and carry you to Louisville is fully

grammatical.

How in the hell else could you say it? (with all those subtleties)

Di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

It means something like this:

I am about to with no compunction or hesitation and with gusto and/or

directness transport you by vehicle to Louisville.

Any other native speakers got any better translations for the South and South

Midlands handicapped?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 13:41:52 +0000

From:  "dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]popserver.essex.ac.uk..."  dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: Reviewing "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH



Could someone post a full reference to Heartland English please? Ta.



Dave Britain

Essex University



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 08:47:26 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Fixing to carry you



 In fact I am fixing to flat out haul off and carry you to Louisville is fully

 grammatical.

 How in the hell else could you say it? (with all those subtleties)

 Di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 It means something like this:

 I am about to with no compunction or hesitation and with gusto and/or

 directness transport you by vehicle to Louisville.

 Any other native speakers got any better translations for the South and South

 Midlands handicapped?



--Not necessarily by vehicle. If I'm [fItin] to carry you to the main

office, I may be planning to walk with you since you do not know where the

main office is. However, I will not be toting you on the way.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 09:16:37 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Dialect Novel



A few days ago i saw reviewed in the Chicago Tribune a novel about a

oung African-American woman who moves to Detroit from rural Virginia.

There she encounters an English teacher who insists she must abanondon

her vernacular in order to "succeed." The plot of the novel centers

around this persons desire to maintain her own speech and to "get ahead"

in the world at the same time.



I thought i might be able to use this book in class, but I have lost

the review and cant' remember the title or author (thought I remember she

was a University of Chicago grad). Can anyone help me?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 10:10:14 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Thu, 27 Apr 1995 08:29:53 -0400

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from EM.COM

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  0742 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ----------------- Message in error (59 lines) -------------------------

  Date: 27 Apr 1995 08:13:12 -0500

  From: "Marjorie Shustak"  mshustak[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]em.com 

  Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives and

 

      Reply to:  RE  Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas

 

  Tim, what does the Hill Street Blues cop's Jewishness have to do with his use

  of euphemistic epithets?

 

  --------------------------------------

  Date: 4/27/95 4:08 AM

  To: Marjorie Shustak

  From: American Dialect Society

  I have an impression that the strictures on offensive speech that

  govern American television might have been very productive in the

  1980s of a new burst of euphemistic language. I don't remember

  ever hearing words like scuzz bucket, scumbag, rat-breath, and so

  forth before Hill Street Blues, which attempted to create a tough,

  vulgar, 'realistic' street atmosphere without using any of the

  seven (?) outlawed words. There was one character in particular,

  Belcher (Belker?) -- the short, inarticulate, onion-eating, Jewish

  cop who growled as often as he spoke -- who came out with these and

  many other relatively euphemistic epithets. Andy Cszypowitz (?) of

  NYPD Blue continues the tradition today, though with relatively fewer

  constraints than the pioneers of the early 80s had to work under.

 

  Does anyone else share this impression of the late blooming of a new,

  harsher, euphemistic vocabulary of insult? Or did I just grow up too

  much in the gutter, and it wasn't until getting away from the

  projects that I encountered this softer, middle lexicon of prime time

  vituperation?

 

  Tim Behrend

  University of Auckland

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 15:43:54 -0400

From:  "(Jerry Miller)"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas



I believe that, while scuzz bucket and rat-breath were unknown to me before

Belker used them on Hill Street, I was familiar with scumbag, as well as

scumbucket and scumbum, long before that show came along. When and where

they entered my frame of reference, I'm not at all sure, but here in Indiana

they have been around for a while, I think.

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 17:31:45 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: SECOL Web Page



SECOL (Southeastern Conference on Linguistics) is now on the Web at

http://www.msstate.edu/Org/SECOL/. I'm hoping that some of you SECOL

members will look at what's there and send me suggestions, additions,

corrections, whatever. The pages are very bare-bones as of now.



Another reason I'm posting this is to ask people to send me calls for

papers. I created a page for calls for papers but have only two in it

so far (which I found a little while ago by grepping around in the

ADS-L archives): ADS/SAMLA (11th hour, I realize -- remind me to

remove it in a few days) and the Hispanic linguistics conference at

Radford University. I've linked the call-for-papers document to the

ADS web pages also.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Apr 1995 11:54:06 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: Bounced Mail



      Reply to:  RE  Anodyne Expletives and TV police dramas

 

  Tim, what does the Hill Street Blues cop's Jewishness have to do with his use

  of euphemistic epithets?

 

  --------------------------------------



The passage refered to is the following:



  seven (?) outlawed words. There was one character in particular,

  Belcher (Belker?) -- the short, inarticulate, onion-eating, Jewish

  cop who growled as often as he spoke -- who came out with these and

  many other relatively euphemistic epithets. Andy Cszypowitz (?) of





Natalie, Nothing in particular -- just like his height, the degree

of his articulateness, his eating habits, his profession, and his

grunting. I was drawing on my mental image of the character to

identify him to readers. His ethnicity stands out as part of his

identity. Why do you ask?



Tim Behrend



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 20:11:04 -0400

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Dialect Novel



Tim -

The author is: A. J. Verdelle

The title is: The Good Negress

The publisher seems to be: Algonquin Books

The article is in the Chicago Tribune of Monday April 24, starting on the

first page of the Tempo section.

- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 20:11:15 -0400

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Allen Walker Read



Some of us have been concerned about the health of Allen Walker Read, who

published his first American Speech article and joined the American Dialect

Society in about 1928, and who has been most active in the profession and in

the Society ever since; but from whom little has been heard recently.

 The good news is that he is doing reasonably well. This is from John

Algeo, who with Adele visited him and Charlotte recently. Here are excerpts

from John's answer to my question:

  "Allen and Charlotte were talking about coming to Cleveland for

DSNA, and we encouraged them, but I will be more surprised if they do

than if they don't. We had supper with them a couple of weeks ago,

while Adele and I were in New York. They are both frail. . . . However,

they are otherwise in good spirits and mentally alert. . . .

  "Allen finds it difficult to answer mail. He never was a prolific

correspondent, of course, but now things are an effort for him. . . . He

doesn't talk on the phone because he simply can't hear much of the time.

  " In person, you can talk up and he can watch your face and get most of

what is being said, but telephones are quite impossible (actually I

sympathize). For the same reason he has not been coming to meetings. . . .

  "I think he would appreciate having a card or a line from people. Just

don't expect an answer." - To make this perfectly clear, the card or line

would *not* be to express sympathy, which he neither needs nor wants, but

simply to keep in touch.



 Now - for those who'd like to write - his address (as you'll find it in the

ADS directory) is: 39 Claremont Ave., New York, NY 10027-6824.



 Perhaps there are newcomers to ADS-L who haven't heard of Allen Walker

Read. If so, we should have some informative postings.

 For further reading: He gave a wonderful talk at the ADS annual meeting in

New York City in December 1992, printed in the ADS newsletter 25.2 of May

1993; and, the latest issue (24.5 Feb 95) of Gerald Cohen's _Comments on

Etymology_ has Richard W. Bailey's "Allen Walker Read: American Scholar."

 - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Apr 1995 19:39:39 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bounced Mail



  Tim, what does the Hill Street Blues cop's Jewishness have to do with his use

  of euphemistic epithets?

 

  Natalie, Nothing in particular -- just like his height, the degree

  of his articulateness, his eating habits, his profession, and his

  grunting. I was drawing on my mental image of the character to

  identify him to readers. His ethnicity stands out as part of his

  identity. Why do you ask?



I didn't. Somebody else did. I was simply forwarding mail that bounced

to me as listowner.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Apr 1995 to 27 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 109 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Allen Walker Read

 2. "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH

 3. Dialect novel

 4. Electronic Newsletter for Language and Law



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Apr 1995 07:25:22 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Allen Walker Read



Adding to John Algeo's note about Allen Walker Read:



The North Central Names Institute published a festschrift in 1987;

edited by Larry Seits, it has a selected bibiliography and two

biographical pieces, one by E. Wallace McMullen and one by Henry Truby.

(Of course, a complete bibl. of Allen's work would probably fill a volume.)



Allen's most famous piece of work was perhaps "The Evidence on OK" which

appeared in the Saturday Review on July 19 1941. H. L. Mencken called

wrote on the New Yorker (1948) that "Allen Walker Read. . .probably knows

more about early Americanisms than anyone else on earth."



Mencken himself inspired one of Allen's earliest pieces, a University of

Iowa master's thesis on Iowa place names (1926).



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Apr 1995 08:45:27 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: "HEARTLAND" ENGLISH



"hEARTLAND" ENGLISH: VARIATION AND TRANSITION IN THE AMERICAN MIDWEST, ed.

Timothy C. Frazer, Tuscaloosa: University of Alabam press, 1993



Bob Wachal



BTW, I recommend this book highly; it's an excellent collection of papers.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Apr 1995 08:42:28 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Dialect novel



They can both be satisfied with a bbidialectal approach, not?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Apr 1995 14:39:47 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Electronic Newsletter for Language and Law



MEMORANDUM ON LANGUAGE AND LAW



TO:       Researchers on Language in the Judicial Process



FROM:      Bethany K. Dumas



RE:       New Electronic Newsletter:

        Language in the Judicial Process



DATE:      April 28, 1995



This is the first call for bibliographic items to be included in a new

electronic newsletter on Language and Law, LANGUAGE IN THE

JUDICIAL PROCESS. The Newsletter will be maintained on a

World Wide Web homepage. The first issues will list current

bibliography, cite relevant legal cases, etc. One goal of the

Newsletter is to continue the fine tradition begin by Judith N. Levi,

whose bibliographical work on language and law over several years

culminated in the publication of her 1994 book, Language and Law.

For the title of the newsletter, I am indebted to Judith and also to

Anne Graffam Walker; their pioneering work in proposing both the

1985 Georgetown University conference, "Language in the Judicial

Process," and its 1990 proceedings volume, constituted a substantial

contribution to the developing field of forensic linguistics. I use the

name "Language in the Judicial Process" with their permission.



If you have authored or know about items you want included, please

send me complete bibliographic citations (including full first names,

please). The preferred style is that of the LSA Style Sheet. The

deadline for receipt of items for the first issue is Monday, May 15.

Items may be submitted by e-mail. by fax, or by post:



E-mail to        dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



FAX TO         Bethany K. Dumas

            Department of English

            (615) 974-6926



Post to         Bethany K. Dumas

            Department of English

            The University of Tennessee

            Knoxville, Tennessee 37996-0430 USA



Later, I hope the expand to Newsletter to include abstracts and

summaries. If you have abstracts or summaries of items to submit,

please send them--now or later.



In addition, I solicit offprints or other copies of manuscript or

published items to be maintained in a permanent file in my office at

The University of Tennessee.



REFERENCES



Levi, Judith N., and Anne Graffam Walker, eds. 1990. Language in

the judicial process. New York and London: Plenum Press.



Levi, Judith N. 1994 Language and Law. 1994. Chicago, IL:

American Bar Association.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Apr 1995 to 28 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 132 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "You're eighty-six, man!" (4)

 2.  No subject given 

 3. Nomail

 4. Anodyne Expletives (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 15:59:04 +0300

From:  Matti Pitk{l{  mp54978[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTA.FI 

Subject: "You're eighty-six, man!"



Dear ADS-L people,

I watched the TV-series "Northern Exposure" the other day

and a character there used the expression "You're eighty-

six, man" to another, who had done some renovations at this

first character's house (well, actually it was a trailer),

and caused some water damages there. I understood this to

mean something like "You are a disaster, man". I wonder

though, were this expression comes from, and how well

known it is in the US? Would someone have a clue?



Matti

--

          ********** Matti Pitk=E4l=E4 **********

          ********** mp54978[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uta.fi **********

          * 931-367 0695 | +358-31-367 0695 *

          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 10:16:15 -0400

From:  "J. Russell King"  JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: "You're eighty-six, man!"



  May have started in another guise, but at least here in New York City

"eighty six" is bartender's slang for a customer who won't be served anymore,

who has been cut off (because of rude behavior or being too drunk). "He's

been eighty-sixed."

  An extended meaning I've also heard is when the kitchen has run out of a

particular item, or the bar is out of a particular wine, that item is "eighty

six" or "eighty sixed" -- used in conversations between waiters and

bartenders, or waiters and the kitchen.

   Somebody probably has a notion of the ultimate origin, but I don't.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 11:03:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



HELP! I want to turn ADS-L off until May 25th (nothing personal), and I've

lost the instructions.

Dennis Preston (=di[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nIs)

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 10:27:31 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Nomail



  HELP! I want to turn ADS-L off until May 25th (nothing personal), and I've

  lost the instructions.



Send this to the listserv:



set ads-l nomail



When you want to start getting mail again, send this:



set ads-l mail



(Note that that's an L, not the number 1. Case doesn't matter, btw --

you can call in ADS-L if you want to.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 11:48:21 -0400

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



Anyone know the origin of the Southernism "I swan?" Meaning, I think,

"golly! goodness! I tell you!" and any other euphemism for surprise--

                        Cathy Bodin





------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 11:22:35 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Anodyne Expletives



  Anyone know the origin of the Southernism "I swan?" Meaning, I think,



It's presumably a clipped form of "I swanny" (I've heard "swan" more

than "swanny" btw). According to the AHD, "swanny" is probably an

alteration of "I s'wan ye," from "I shall warrant ye."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 12:21:37 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: "You're eighty-six, man!"



   May have started in another guise, but at least here in New York City

 "eighty six" is bartender's slang for a customer who won't be served anymore,

 who has been cut off (because of rude behavior or being too drunk). "He's

 been eighty-sixed."





The alt.folklore.urban FAQ, which is reasonable reliable, lists as

"believed true" the statement "The expression '86' (to put the kibosh on),

originated in 1920s diner slang." It doesn't say why "86," however. I've

read that this was the street number on for a New York bar famous for

tossing out cutomers, but my memory is vague and it may not be true in any

case.



In the Northern Exposure episode, I believe Chris says "You're

eighty-sixed" (with the "-ed" ending), meaning "you're fired; you're out of

here."



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Apr 1995 14:15:06 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: "You're eighty-six, man!"



The explanation that I've always heard for "86" is that this is the standard

proof (43% alcohol) for most liquors.



-- Jim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Apr 1995 to 29 Apr 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 165 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "You're eighty-six, man!"

 2. 86ed

 3. I swan (3)

 4. Cross-post: on n X short of a Y

 5. Why, and how we transcribe it



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 00:30:06 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: "You're eighty-six, man!"



Matti Pitk{l{  mp54978[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTA.FI  says:

  I watched the TV-series "Northern Exposure" the other day

  and a character there used the expression "You're eighty-

  six, man" to another, who had done some renovations at this

  first character's house (well, actually it was a trailer),

  and caused some water damages there. I understood this to

  mean something like "You are a disaster, man". I wonder

  though, were this expression comes from, and how well

  known it is in the US? Would someone have a clue?



If I were told "you're eighty-sixed," I'd take it to mean

"you're no longer welcome here." (To whom did Chris say it?

Was that the episode wherein Chris inherited some money?)



 From "The Straight Dope" (Cecil Adams):

| The term derives via a roundabout route from a number code allegedly

| in wide use in 1920s diners and soda fountains. 86 supposedly meant,

| "We're all out of the item ordered," said by the cook or some other

| honcho to a soda jerk or similar minion. By extension 86 came to

| mean, "Don't serve anything to the indicated party because he is

| either broke or a creep." (Presumably you see how a code would come

| in handy in such situations.) Bartenders later used the term in

| connection with any person deemed too hammered to serve additional

| drinks to, and eventually it came to have the all-purpose meaning

| we assign to it today.

|    Other lunch counter code numbers (I rely here on the Morris

| Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins) include 82, I need a glass

| of water (80 and 81 at times meant the same thing); 99, the manager

| is on the prowl; 98, ditto for the assistant manager; 33, gimme a

| cherry-flavored Coke; 55, I crave a root beer; 19, I yearn for a

| banana split; and 87 1/2, check out the babe over yonder.



I think I've also heard "eighty-sixed" used of a broken machine, but

won't swear to it. Note that in "Get Smart", Don Adams played the

loyal but bumbling Agent 86 (and his smarter sidekick was Agent 99).



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 08:51:34 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: 86ed



 Dear ADS-L people,

 I watched the TV-series "Northern Exposure" the other day

 and a character there used the expression "You're eighty-

 six, man" to another, who had done some renovations at this

 first character's house (well, actually it was a trailer),

 and caused some water damages there. I understood this to

 mean something like "You are a disaster, man". I wonder

 though, were this expression comes from, and how well

 known it is in the US? Would someone have a clue?

 

 Matti



I'm trying to find a specific etymology. But as I recall it has to do with

drowning. So that being 86ed and being sunk had the same meaning. You were

dead. So euphemistically speaking to be 86ed or sunk meant to be really in

big trouble.



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 08:53:09 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I swan



 Anyone know the origin of the Southernism "I swan?" Meaning, I think,

 "golly! goodness! I tell you!" and any other euphemism for surprise--

                         Cathy Bodin



Actually, it's a New England expression equivalent to "I swear." Such as "I

swear I know the answer to this." "I swan I know the answer to this." I think

the southern equivalent wout be "I do declare I know the answer to this."



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 13:26:16 -0400

From:  Robert Aldridge  RobertA799[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I swan



When I was growing up in Mississippi, people often said "I swanny".

 Especially Black people. I've often wondered where that came from, too.

     Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 17:36:51 -0500

From:  seth johnson  sjohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: I swan



On Sun, 30 Apr 1995, Robert Aldridge wrote:



  When I was growing up in Mississippi, people often said "I swanny".

  Especially Black people. I've often wondered where that came from, too.

       Bob

 

Where are you from in Mississippi

Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 21:25:27 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Cross-post: on n X short of a Y



Hi y'all. I just noticed this posting on Linguist--



__________________________________

Date: Sat, 29 Apr 1995 7:55:56 -0700 (PDT)

From: SILVER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sonoma.edu

Subject: Recently created idioms



In my introductory semantics class we've been talking about semantic and

grammatical models speakers use to create new idioms. A student came

up with an amusing one a friend of hers presumably created on his own:

"three french fries short of a happy meal" --also "a sandwich short of

a picnic". Does anyone know if these have currency, or can they be

more or less considered unique creations?

Shirley Silver

__________________________________

Now, besides my sense that the latter (although not the former, which does

strike me as a nice novel extension of the pattern) is already lexicalized, as

it were, I seem to recall that we were kicking around quite a few other

instances of this model a while back. Does anyone have (or can they

reconstruct) a list of them for Shirley Silver (or for me, and I can repackage

them for her). The first one I recall is 'three bricks shy of a load'.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Apr 1995 22:28:00 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Why, and how we transcribe it



If you make a spectrogram of a native speaker of /hw-/ saying 'whine',

you'll find the same kind of delay of voice onset that you find in 'twine'

and 'slime' etc. That is, there is an initial /h-/, though the energy

level of the "aspiration" in /h/ is so low that there's no way to tell

whether the /w/ overlaps with the /h/ for 100% of the segment, but it is

clear that the /h/ does not extend through the entire articulation

(temporally) of the /w/. I've always suspected that the phonologists or

phoneticians who transcribe /hw-/ with the upside-down w or with a little

circle (for voicelessness) under the /w/ do not produce /hw-/ natively.

Yes, Bill, I agree that "voiceless w" is a bit of an oxymoron, in reference

to this particular consonant cluster--though that's not quite what you said.

There MIGHT be a voiceless /w/ in some language(s), but that's not what

I perceive in English, either when I say it or when I hear it. The

cluster, of course, is misspelled.  Try over-articulating and say /h/

followed by /w/; then /w/ followed by /h/. The latter isn't even close

to anything we do with our articulators in English. As any good HEL book

will point out, the two letters were reversed after sh- and ch- became

so common in early Middle English spelling. And th-.    DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Apr 1995 to 30 Apr 1995

************************************************



.