Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Jul 1997 to 1 Aug 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 103 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. good story re /mVt/(fwd) 2. "Surcee"; "Surcey"; "Surcy" 3. Fw: circe, sirsee ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 08:24:40 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: good story re /mVt/(fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 17:03:11 -0700 From: Alan Harrison > Which reminds me of the tale of the man walking down the canal bank (the > cut-bonk in the vernacular), when he sees a child crying (blartin' in > the vernacular). Says the would-be Good Samaritan, "Why'm yoh blartin', > son?" > > The child responds, "Me mate's fell in the cut." At this, our hero tears > off his jacket and boots and dives into the not exactly limpid waters of > the Birmingham Canal Navigation. He finds the usual stuff, old bike > frames, dead dogs, etcetera, but no drowning child. Coming up, > spluttering, he asks, "Wheer exackly did 'e fall in the cut?" At this > point the penny drops with the child, who has stopped crying and is > gazing at the rescuer in amazement: "Naow, mate, not that sort o' mate - > the mate off me sandwich." > > Alan Harrison ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 17:18:23 -0400 From: Evan Morris Subject: "Surcee"; "Surcey"; "Surcy" I know that this was discussed briefly (and inconclusively) here a while back. Does anyone have any more info on what this word might be? I think this question may be the next "gry" virus in the making -- this is the third query I've had in the last two weeks. Thanks, Evan Morris >From: brendelw >To: "'questions[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com'" >Subject: "Surcee"; "Surcey"; "Surcy" >Date: Fri, 01 Aug 97 12:20:00 E >Encoding: 18 TEXT >X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 > > >Dear Sir: > >I am attempting to find the origin and the definition of the word >"surcee", however it might be spelled. > >I believe the word to be a colloquialism meaning a "surprise gift". I >have heard the word used by individuals from the Carolinas and was told >by one person that they saw a Boutique type shop in Atlanta, GA. named >"The Surcee". > >I was referred to your site by the good research folks at FINDOUT.com who >were unable to locate any reference to the word in their no more than 15 >minute search. > >Can you help? > >Thank you > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 1 Aug 1997 16:37:40 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Fw: circe, sirsee This is a message I passed on the the person who queried this a couple of weeks ago: The Dictionary of American Regional English files have anecdotal evidence for the term "sirsee" (variously spelled "circe," "circi," "surcy") from NC, SC, GA, and PA, as well as two reports from Buffalo, NY and Oklahoma, where the speakers were said to come from "someplace else." All evidence is oral, so the spellings are speakers' attempts to represent the pronunciation. The etymology is uncertain, but one plausible source is the Scots verb "sussie," meaning 'to take trouble, to care, to bother oneself.' This probably came to Scotland from the French "souci," meaning 'care, trouble.' The term seems to be especially well known in Columbia, SC, where it is strongly associated with a women's college. Michael Montgomery of the English Department of the University of SC has reported its use there. We at DARE would be interested in whatever documentation or anecdotal evidence you have for the use of the word (time, place, examples). Best wishes, Joan Hall, Associate Editor, DARE ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jul 1997 to 1 Aug 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Aug 1997 to 2 Aug 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 171 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. VERSACE SPECIAL: Supermodel, Superman 2. dumb question, I'm really sorry (2) 3. Earlier Citations for _Supermodel_ (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 08:28:18 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: VERSACE SPECIAL: Supermodel, Superman "You were the first supermodel, weren't you?" --Howard Stern (syndicated radio program) to Carol Alt. Time to straighten this thing out. Surprisingly, "supermodel" (not in OED) hasn't been included in any recent books, such as William Safire's books (of his hundreds of columns) or THE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF NEW WORDS (1991). Everyone knows what a supermodel is--an extremely famous model. Lots of magazine covers, lots of beauty endorsements, lots of money, and sometimes one name only (Iman, Cindy, Christie, Claudia, Naomi). "Model" means "copy" or "imitation." Surely, the REAL Cindy Crawford is out there somewhere! "Supermodel" goes back to the 1950s and rockets. Carol Alt's claim is based on "The Spoiled Supermodels" by Anthony Haden-Guest, in New York magazine, 16 March 1981, pages 24-29. Page 29 states that "Alt is typical of the supermodel who is here for the long haul." The earliest "supermodel" on Nexis is "Diet Secrets of the Supermodels," Harper's Bazaar, November 1978, pg. 140 and pg. 190. The "supermodels" featured are Cristina Ferrare (briefly married to John DeLorean), Lisa Taylor, Christie Brinkley (was married to Billy Joel), and Rene Russo (now a movie star). I don't think they stay thin on that cheddar cheese soup, though. The issue also has such headlines as "super jewels" and "super looks," among other superlatives. The December 1978 Cosmopolitan ran "The Model Game--How to Play and Win." "Supermodel" is not mentioned, but page 240 has a photo of "Supergirl Lauren Hutton." The big movie for 1978 was--big surprise here--SUPERMAN. The movie came out in the summer. The November 1978 Harper's Bazaar came out in October and was composed that summer/fall. U. S. News & World Report had "American Models: Today's Superstars" in 2 June 1980, pp. 62-63. No "supermodel," though. I briefly checked WWD with no luck. I'll check Page Six of the New York Post, which features generous photos of various lovelies and would probably mention what they are. It would appear, however, that "supermodel" was not coined by Haden-Guest (who also answers to the name Mies van der Rohe), but was directly influenced by SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- O. K.: Fred Cassidy pointed out that his article on this subject is in vol. 56 of American Speech, not vol. 55. As I stated before, this was a citation that I discovered that day. I did not mean to fully discuss or debate the various arguments in the posting. It is, as you all know, a long story. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 11:25:38 -0800 From: jarthurs Subject: Re: dumb question, I'm really sorry |Duane Campbell wrote: "Who said, 'Less is more'?" |Alan Baragona replied: "Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's attributes |it to Robert Browning! ['Andrea del Sarto,' l. 78, with a cross reference |to Hesiod: 'Fools, they do not even know how much more is the half than |the whole']". I do not understand what the Browning quote has to do with the Campbell question: it may express, by implication, a notion akin to that of "Less is more" but it does not correspond to it textually, obviously. So, what does it matter that Browning said what he said? For my part, I do not know with any certainty who said, 'Less is more' but my immediate reaction to the question was "Buckminster Fuller". Any further offers? Dr. James Arthurs, Advisor, Applied Linguistics Programmes, Department of Linguistics, University of Victoria, Box 3045, Victoria, B.C. Tel: (250) 721-7432) Canada V8W 3P4 Fax: (250) 721-7423) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:18:16 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Earlier Citations for _Supermodel_ Here are some earlier citations for _supermodel_ than what Barry Popik posted. Nexis yields occurrences back to 1975: 1975 _Newsweek_ 30 June (Nexis) Supermodel Margaux Hemingway, 20, was married last week. Another database pushed the term back to 1974: 1974 _Essence_ Oct. 54 (heading) Super models beauty basics. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 15:24:13 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: dumb question, I'm really sorry On Sat, 2 Aug 1997, jarthurs wrote: > |Duane Campbell wrote: "Who said, 'Less is more'?" > > |Alan Baragona replied: "Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's > attributes > |it to Robert Browning! ['Andrea del Sarto,' l. 78, with a cross reference > I do not understand what the Browning quote has to do with the Campbell > question: it may express, by implication, a notion akin to that of "Less is > more" but it does not correspond to it textually, obviously. So, what does it > matter that Browning said what he said? What is "obvious" is not always true. Browning did say "Less is more" textually. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 2 Aug 1997 19:29:07 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Re: Earlier Citations for _Supermodel_ I didn't see those two cites on my NEXIS database. Then again, the NYPL has only one Nexis machine that you have to reserve a day in advance for a half hour only. This, keep in mind, for the entire city. I could go on and on about the NYPL horrors I experienced this week. Anyway, a check of the New York Post Page Six immediately before the 1981 Haden-Guest article in New York magazine shows that the term in use is "top model." 5 January 1981, NY Post, pg. 6. "Regine ignites new 'model war'" is the title. Eileen Ford is "queen of America's top model agents." 13 January 1981, NY Post, pg. 6. "More lousy news for top model Christie Brinkley...." Nowadays, a top model models tops. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Aug 1997 to 2 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Aug 1997 to 3 Aug 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. dumb question, I'm really sorry (2) 2. Question on a word 3. IAFL3 Session Chair Slots available ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 00:05:22 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: dumb question, I'm really sorry James Arthurs writes, > |Duane Campbell wrote: "Who said, 'Less is more'?" > |Alan Baragona replied: "Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's > |attributes > |to Hesiod: 'Fools, they do not even know how much more is the half than > |the whole']". > > I do not understand what the Browning quote has to do with the Campbell > question: it may express, by implication, a notion akin to that of "Less is > more" but it does not correspond to it textually, obviously. So, what does it > matter that Browning said what he said? As the context above makes clear, the quote is attributed to Hesiod; Browning's line was 'Less is more'. > > For my part, I do not know with any certainty who said, 'Less is more' but my > immediate reaction to the question was "Buckminster Fuller". > > Any further offers? As noted, the line was Browning's, from "Andrea del Sarto" (1855), whence the equally memorable "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp/Or what's a heaven for?". My Bartlett's also includes that same troublesome Hesiod cross- reference, as well as a Lessing line "Not so honest would be more honest", but it also notes of "Less is more" that it was "a popular aphorism with the architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe." --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 11:30:01 -0400 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Subject: Re: dumb question, I'm really sorry At this point in the discussion of who said "Less is more," it may be helpful to quote the lines from Browning's "Andrea Del Sarto" that were given as the source in the first reply: You do much less, so much less, Someone says, (I know his name, no matter)--so much less! Well, LESS IS MORE, Lucrezia: I am judged. [emphasis added] I rather enjoyed reading some Browning again, although it took me a while to remember where I'dd put Romantic period books. Virginia >James Arthurs writes, >> |Duane Campbell wrote: "Who said, 'Less is more'?" > >> |Alan Baragona replied: "Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's >> |attributes >> |to Hesiod: 'Fools, they do not even know how much more is the half than >> |the whole']". >> >> I do not understand what the Browning quote has to do with the Campbell >> question: it may express, by implication, a notion akin to that of "Less is >> more" but it does not correspond to it textually, obviously. So, what does it >> matter that Browning said what he said? >As the context above makes clear, the quote is attributed to Hesiod; >Browning's line was 'Less is more'. > >> >> For my part, I do not know with any certainty who said, 'Less is more' but my >> immediate reaction to the question was "Buckminster Fuller". >> >> Any further offers? >As noted, the line was Browning's, from "Andrea del Sarto" (1855), whence the >equally memorable "Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp/Or what's a >heaven for?". My Bartlett's also includes that same troublesome Hesiod cross- >reference, as well as a Lessing line "Not so honest would be more honest", but >it also notes of "Less is more" that it was "a popular aphorism with the >architect Ludwig Mies van der Rohe." --Larry > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 13:33:35 -0400 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: Question on a word How about "semantic shift" as described by Fromkin and Rodman (1978)? Margaret Lee Department of English Hampton University On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Jonathan Gilbert wrote: > Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:30:27 -0500 > From: Jonathan Gilbert > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Question on a word > > Apologies for posting to lists I don't normally read; I'm asking here on the > suggestion of a friend who does read them -- please send replies > directly by email, and thanks. > > The question is on behalf of another friend who is working on a > dissertation (not on a linguistics topic, it's social history of a sort); she > wants to describe a situation in which the usage of one word (in a > particular context, by a small group of people) has diverged enough from > its standard usage that it has become interchangeable with another > word, normally either different or unrelated in meaning. My friend > believes there is a word for this phenomenon, but nobody we've asked > so far has been able to identify it ... does anyone out there know? > > Jonathan Gilbert > JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 3 Aug 1997 17:29:36 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: IAFL3 Session Chair Slots available Earlier, I sent a copy of the program for IAFL3 (Int'l Ass'n of Forensic Linguists), Duke U., Sept. 4-7 (if you need an individual resend, please let me know). I am issuing an invitation for individuals who plan to attend and would like to chair a session to let me know as soon as possible. I have a limited number of slots left and would like to involve more ADS members. I can send you a formal letter of invitation. Also, please note that I will be travelling and away from email Aug 8-18. During that time, queries may be sent to Ron Butters: . Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 -> 1117 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Aug 1997 to 3 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Sender: American Dialect Society Topics of the day: 1. Labels for Locals; NYPL horrors; Britcom/Sitcom; Baseball terms 2. presentism 3. More creeping vulgarity 4. vulgarity--in the eye of the beholder? 5. (Garcia) Marquez ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 08:03:15 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Labels for Locals; NYPL horrors; Britcom/Sitcom; Baseball terms Is anybody out there? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BOOK REVIEW: LABELS FOR LOCALS/What to Call People from Abilene to Zimbabwe by Paul Dickson. "Hey, you!" Works for me. Missouri, let's see, Show Me, "The late speaker Champ Clark credited Vandiver with originating the expression in an impromptu address as a member of Congress before the Five O'Clock Club in Philadelphia in 1899." O. K., I did this recently; can't fault him. New York, New York, "The city is nicknamed the _Big Apple_, a term that etymologist David Shulman traces back to 1909." I did this five years ago. Oh well. There's a large section on Hoosier. "In any event, _Hoosier_ has a long history. Its first literary appearance was in the _Indianapolis Journal_ on January 1, 1833." No, not at all!! I did a large posting on this January 1, 1997. Usonia is "Name for a future Utopian America populated by _Usonians_. The name was borrowed from Samuel Butler by architect Frank Lloyd Wright, who used it to describe his perfect house, 'The Usonia.'" Why not also give USONA=United States of North America? I have a big USONIA/USONA file in my America Papers. Utopia is on the cover, and he manages to screw this entry also by stating simply that it is a "generic term" from Sir Thomas More's book. Moving on to another entry.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- N.Y.P.L. HORRORS I forgot to add that all of New York City's one Nexis machine does not even have a printer, because it's too expensive. Here are some of the horrors of the new New York Public Library, as experienced by me and David Shulman (who I met on Saturday). 1. THE MISSING PALMER'S INDEX TO THE LONDON TIMES--All of the machines that were upstairs were moved downstairs for the renovation. Well, not all. I couldn't find Palmer's Index to the London Times. I walked around all of the machines three times. I called a librarian. We walked around all of the machines twice. "It's not here. I don't know where it went," he said. Librarians are always so helpful. 2. OUR STAFF WILL HELP YOU--I used the LEO system, and got "PER" for Women's Wear Daily. I gave it to the guy at the window and received a number. Then I waited about an hour. Twelve numbers came up after mine. Then I was told to see a staff librarian. After a half-hour wait for a librarian (they're short staff), I was told that the periodical was on microfilm in the self-serve area. 3. MISSING MATERIALS--"Subway Series" (All-New York Yankees v. Giants, Dodgers, or Mets) would be very easy to solve. I merely have to check the Subway Sun. I requested 1921, 1922, 1923, 1936, 1937--the proper years. "ANNEX" said the staff member, which means you have to stand on the long line for a librarian, fill out the call slip again, bring the big black catalog book over, and wait another day. Two days later, my book and my request wasn't there. I did the whole thing again. Two days after that, it came back "NOT ON SHELF"--strange because YOU CAN'T BORROW THESE ITEMS. Is it not on shelf for microfilming? Is someone else reading it? What? The librarian called the annex. No answer. Another call. No answer. "They don't always pick up the phone, there's only one person working there." Next day, the call went through. Nothing is on the shelf. Other libraries were checked. No one else has this. There's more, but I'll stop here. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- BRITCOM/SITCOM Britcom=British comedy. Sitcom=Situation comedy. Computers have made this a bit interesting. You can go to www.sit.com and www.brit.com. In the latter, you'll finding the Beyond Roentgen Imaging Technologies people who cloned Dolly. I haven't seen Britcom in some books of words, but fans of TNT (that would be Turner Network Television) know that he was running "Brit-coms" every Friday in July. I thought Newsday's Marvin Kitman invented this in the 1980s, but Nexis came up with an earlier citation from another newspaper. Britcom is also the name of a telecommunications company. OED has 1964 for "sitcom" and the TV GUIDE for 23 October 1953 for "situation comedy." With little effort, I found August 1953, THEATRE ARTS, pages 90-91, "Situation Comedy--or Situation Wanted?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BASEBALL TERMS GRAND SLAM/SWEEP--Dickson's Baseball Dictionary doesn't give a date for "sweep." OED cites Wentworth and Flexner and gives 1960. As stated before, a "sweep" was originally a "grand slam." The Sporting News, 12 October 1939, pg. 3, col. 1, "BOMBERS' FOURTH TITLE IN ROW WON IN SECOND STRAIGHT 'SLAM'" by Frederick G. Lieb, states "the Yanks have won four straight--what is known in baseball as the Grand Slam." In TSN of 18 October 1950, pg. 7, cols. 2-4, we have "Ninth Series Sweep Without Loss, Six of Them by Yanks." In TSN of 13 October 1954, pg. 14, col. 1, "GIANTS' SWEEP GIVES N. L. NEW PRESTIGE." BIRD DOG--Dickson gives 1950, and Random House HDAS copies this. Perhaps slightly earlier this year is TSN, 10 May 1950, pg. 19, col. 2, "Scouts Wait Turn to See Kids Now, Says Vet Bird Dog." PUSH/SHOVE, PULL/TAKE--An earlier discussion here traced "when push comes to shove" to African-American usage, although I didn't find it used in the "Willie Cool" series that ran in the Amsterdam News. A contrast can be found in The Sporting News, 24 November 1954, pg. 4, cols. 1-3, "More 'Pull' and Less 'Take' Brat's First-Base Recipe." SPITTER--The origin of the spitball is disputed. This information is never given. From The Sporting News, 23 November 1949, pg. 6, col. 5: Spitball Was Originated by an Outfielder in '02 Return of the spitball to the major leagues would revive an age-old controversy: "Who originated the troublesome pitch?" The argument was settled in 1940, when George Hildebrand, former major league umpire, told THE SPORTING NEWS: "In 1902, I was playing for Providence. I was warming up alongside of Frank Corriden, a rookie who was getting ready to pitch. He threw his slow ball by wetting the tips of his fingers. In kidding I took the ball and put a big daub of spit on it and threw it up to Pat McAuley, who was catching. The ball took such a peculiar hop that all three of us couldn't help but notice it. Later, I wound up with the Sacramento club and showed the pitch to Elmer Strickfeit, who introduced it into the majors." And what kind of a pitcher was Hildebrand, the originator of the spitball? No pitcher at all. He was an outfielder! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUPERMODEL again Anthony Haden-Guest came to New York from London, so I'd like to check the British sources for "supermodel." A London tab, perhaps? Where's Leslie Dunkling when you need him? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:31:12 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" Subject: presentism Well I get back from a couple of weeks off and I find some questions about this word waiting for me. The 1923 date in C10 is wrong. It was based on a one-word book title that caught the eye of an editor of the 1934 edition because the word was not in our dictionaries. The book was published by the Presentist Society, and hence is doubtless about the religious belief. Fred Shapiro's 1950 citation looks to be the earliest for the historical use. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:20:18 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: More creeping vulgarity Dave Barry today describes a huge rubber band that "would sting like a mother." I don't think he was referencing a sweet old lady in a rocking chair. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 10:57:21 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: vulgarity--in the eye of the beholder? >Dave Barry today describes a >huge rubber band that "would >sting like a mother." I don't >think he was referencing a >sweet old lady in a rocking >chair. more likely an old-fashioned, angry stern mom with a birch stick? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 4 Aug 1997 20:23:01 -0400 From: "William H. Smith" Subject: Re: (Garcia) Marquez At 10:42 AM 7/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >Alan Baragona writes: > >>I get annoyed when people refer >>to Gabriel Garcia >>Marquez as "Marquez" instead of >>"Garcia Marquez." > >Could somebody please explain the protocol here? > >As I recall, when I lived in Mexico, people explained to me that "Garcia" was >the matronymic and "Marquez" the patronymic--and the matronymic was >frequently dropped in all but the most formal of situations. Is my memory >wrong? Or are there different practices in different parts of the >Spanish-speaking world? It seems to me that people frequently referred to ech >other by their "last" names rather than their full family names. > In Cuba, at least for my ex-wife's family, the pattern is this: patronymic, mother's patronymic, father's mother's patronymic, mother's mother's patronymic. Thus, Fidel Castaro Ruiz is the son of a Catro father and a Ruiz mother. Ruiz is often dropped. Bill Smith ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Aug 1997 to 4 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Aug 1997 to 5 Aug 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 451 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Coital Amnesia; 5 & 10; HBO/Pay-TV; Fax; Bits, Bytes, Bugs; Supermodels 2. Vocalized /l/ 3. Collected responses to question 4. Informants (3) 5. HBO and TV (2) 6. New Books: Dialectology 7. Start/Begin ??? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 07:51:39 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Coital Amnesia; 5 & 10; HBO/Pay-TV; Fax; Bits, Bytes, Bugs; Supermodels COITAL AMNESIA This has to be the word-of-the-year. I heard it today on WCBS newsradio. Scientists are studying "coital amnesia"--people who forget while having sex, or after sex. Often, this involves forgetting the partner's name, but sometimes the subjects forget everything. BILL CLINTON: Everything? I tried tracing the phrase on Infotrax and the web, but it's not there yet. A few good Leno and Letterman jokes and a well-distributed wire story can do the trick. MARV ALBERT: They forget everything? One of the sufferers didn't even know who he was. RUDY GIULIANI: I don't recall ever having an affair with my press secretary, whatever her name is! Gotta help out science. How do you volunteer for these studies? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WOOLWORTH'S (5 & 10 CENT STORE) I walked into a Woolworth's recently and everything was on sale. The entire chain is going out of business in the United States. Woolworth's was the "five and ten cent store" where you could find a million-dollar baby. "Nickel and dime" later became derogatory. The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has a 1940 Saturday Evening Post citation that gives "'Woolworth Bros. 5 & 10 Cent Store" to 1880. This is indeed correct. According to SKYLINE QUEEN AND THE MERCHANT PRINCE: THE WOOLWORTH STORY by John P. Nichols (1973), Frank W. Woolworth began selling "Yankee notions" at a county fair for five cents each. This was so successful that on 22 February 1879 in Utica, New York, Woolworth opened his first "Great 5-cent Store." In 1880, the store at 170 North Queen Street, Lancaster, Pennsylvania became his first Five-and-Ten. I've always been a fan of New York City's Woolworth Building. I told them I was serious about buying it and had lots of change in my pants. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- HBO, PAY-TV "GARTH LIVE FROM CENTRAL PARK Thursday, August 7, 8 PM ET/PT HBO IT'S NOT TV. IT'S HBO." HBO is not tv?? What is it, a frog? OED has "pay television=pay-TV" from 1957. It also lists "pay-as-you-use" or "pay-as-you-see" or "pay-as-you-view" television, citing the 1956 Britannica Book of the Year, 492/2, "Also introduced from the United States--though not yet fully accepted into British English--were such expressions as Pay TV...." The big debate on this occurred in 1955. Newsweek for 21 February 1955, pg. 28, "COMMUNICATIONS: Pay-TV Coming?" begins: "Pay-as-you-see television moved a bit closer to the air waves last week. The Federal Communications Commission requested all interested groups and persons to submit their views on it by May 9." Newsweek ran large articles on Pay-TV on February 28th and May 23rd. Sports took an early interest. This is from The Sporting News, 6 October 1954, pg. 16, col. 1, "Quotes," by Gene Kessler of the Chicago Sun-Times: FCC Urged to Sanction Pay-as-You-See-TV (...) The only logical answer to this problem, which threatens the existence of our major sports, is pay-as-you-see television. From our tests and from independent surveys, we know the public is willing to pay for sports telecasts. And with the kind of home box office that subscription television can provide all concerned will benefit. There it is! "Home box office" in 1954! Subscription television!! TV!!!! Party on, Garth! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FAX OED's first citation is Time, 12 Jan. 1948, "The big news about 'fax' was that, technically, the bugs were pretty well worked out of it." Newsweek, 7 July 1947, pg. 53, col. 3, "SCIENCE: Faster Facsimile" details the new "ultrafax" system by the Radio Corp. of America laboratories at Princeton, NJ. Newsweek, 1 November 1948, pg. 50, had articles on "Ultra-Fast Ultrafax" and "And Now Xerography." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BITS, BYTES, BUGS A few weeks ago, I believe William Safire asked readers about "byte." This is very surprising, because the derivations of "bits" and "bytes" are well known (although still incomplete in OED). ANNALS OF THE HISTORY OF COMPUTING, vol. 10, no. 4, 1989, pp. 336-342 groups together its articles on "bit" (from April 1984), "byte" (from January 1981, reprinted from BYTE of February 1977), and "bug" (from July 1981, April 1984, and October 1984). "Bit" is from "binary digit" was spread from the BELL SYSTEM TECHNICAL JOURNAL in 1948, although a 9 January 1947 Bell Labs memorandum also had the word. "Byte" is a grouping of bits and had its first published reference in 1959. The spelling was made to avoid accidental mutation of "bite" to "bit." "Bugs" date at least as far back as Thomas Alva Edison in 1878. Allegedly, a real bug--a moth--got into a Navy computer in the summer of 1945, and the computer required "debugging." Fred Shapiro contributed his bugs to the April 1984 ANNALS. In The Sporting News, 17 November 1954, pg. 16, col. 2, "From the Ruhl Book" by Oscar Ruhl, the baseball column ends with a familiar "Bits and Bites--Begged, Borrowed." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUPERMODELS I'll never trust Howard Stern on etymology again. Here goes: 30 June 1972, LIFE, pg. 73, cols. 1-4. "The many faces of the No. 1 model in the world." Evelyn Kuhn is "the highest-paid model in the world," but NO "supermodel." 17 August 1975, NY TIMES MAGAZINE, pg. 12, cols. 1-2. "'I'm the biggest model, period'/Great face, great figure, great personality, the supergirl next door insists she's more than just the biggest _black_ model in the business." Alas, Beverly Johnson is merely "supergirl." She states that she aspires to become a "millionette." 30 June 1975, NEWSWEEK, pg. 41, col. 2. "Supermodel _Margaux Hemingway_...." 3 November 1975, NEWSWEEK, pg. 46, col. 1. "A 6-foot 1-inch supermodel shouldn't have to go to such lengths to stop traffic, so what was fashion star _Veruschka_ up to, perched on a chair in the middle of Manhattan's Fifth Avenue...." 13 March 1978, NEWSWEEK, pg. 57, col. 3. "But others see Shelley (Hack) up there with the supermodels, and Columbia Pictures has decided a pinup poster is in order." 10 April 1978, NEWSWEEK, pg. 3, col. 2. "Supermodel Matt Collins." The story on page 104 has "Such supermodels as the sultry, sunken-cheeked Matt Collins." On a page 61 story about Mariel Hemingway, "Now it's her All-American wholesomeness that convinces photographer Patrick Demarchelier that it's 'supermodel.'" 24 April 1978, NEWSWEEK, pg. 73, col. 3. "Supermodel Pat Cleveland...." 28 May 1979, NEWSWEEK, pg. 65, col. 2. "...supermodel Cheryl Tiegs..." For some reason, "supermodel" was in Newsweek's stylebook, and not other magazines such as Time or People. More checking found this: Naomi Sims: Super Model Vogue 159:122-5 June 1972 I was in New City today to speak with an accountant for my family's estate, and I visited the New City Public Library. They didn't have Vogue for 1972, but the Finkelstein Public Library in Spring Valley had Vogue from 1967! I drove to the family house in Spring Valley, and then the library. Vogue wasn't on microfilm--they still had the actual copies! The kid came back with the slip. It was that long, familiar walk, with my library request slip in his hands. "Not on shelf." They knew I was coming. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:21:22 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Vocalized /l/ In light of a recent thread here on vocalized L's, I thought folks might be interested in the following scribal errors by three students in my writing class: "Although requirements of honoring the morals in your [marriage] vowels are necessary, being dogmatic of trivial situations will cause unnecessary conflicts." "This story involves a man and a woman who have been married under the vowels of God." "All of the marriage vowels have been broken, and it is time for this couple to reevaluate their marriage life." And speaking of "broken vowels," it's interesting that the merger of "vow" and "vowel" involves not only the vocalization of L, but the loss of the distinction between a one-syllable word and a two-syllable word. Since /aw/ here in Southeast Georgia is often "broken" to something like [&ju], it's probable that both "vow" and "vowel" are pronounced with either one or two syllables depending on context. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 12:13:41 -0500 From: Jonathan Gilbert Subject: Collected responses to question Thanks to all who responded with suggestions of words for the situation where a word becomes interchangeable with another, usually different word. One of you suggested that I collect the responses and post them to the list(s) ... so here you are. Most responses suggested what were really similar or related phenomena: jargon, slang, argot, hidden or secret language, private speech, semantic drift or semantic shift, and metonymy (good suggestion). A few "unofficial" but descriptive phrases were suggested: "contextual synonymy" and "is synonymous with the usual meaning of ..." And finally, the verbs (a verb was really what my friend who originally posed me the question was looking for) "collapse", "confuse", and "conflate". My friend decided that "conflate" was the word she needed, meaning "to put two things together so that they form one unit." Thanks again to all; we're both quite impressed by how much response the question has generated! Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 17:45:00 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Informants Dear Fellow ADSers, I'm in the midst of trying to find informants for my thesis. At this stage, I'm looking for American families living over here in Britain - preferably with mom and dad both being American. Do any of you have family or friends on this side of the Atlantic? If so, could you please e-mail me so that we can arrange for me to get in contact with this person. Later on, I'll be looking for British families living in America, so be prepared for a similar message within the year. :) Thank you! Aaron ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 13:56:07 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: HBO and TV Re Barry's "GARTH LIVE FROM CENTRAL PARK >>Thursday, August 7, 8 PM ET/PT >>HBO >>IT'S NOT TV. IT'S HBO." > >HBO is not tv?? What is it, a frog? A common enough ploy, especially in advertising. From my collection (to illustrate what I like to call metalinguistic negation): It's not a car. It's a Volkswagen. (commercial and advertisement, 1980's) Or, more ominously, They weren't people, Sir. They were the enemy. (Lt. William Calley, during court-martial for his participation in My Lai massacre.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 14:34:54 -0400 From: Tony Schiavo Subject: New Books: Dialectology John Benjamins Publishing would like to call your attention to the following new titles in the field of Dialectology: DIALECT DEATH THE CASE OF BRULE SPANISH Charles E Holloway 1997 x, 220 pp. Studies in Bilingualism, 13 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 547 8 Price: $69.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4119 8 Price: Hfl. 120,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com The Brule Dwellers of Ascension Parish are descendants of Canary Island immigrants who came to Louisiana in the late 1700s. A few residents in and around the Ascension Parish area still speak an archaic dialect of Spanish which is at the brink of linguistic extinction. Because the Brule dialect is in the final stages of what is commonly known as "language death", the case of Brule Spanish presents an exciting opportunity to investigate commonly held assumptions regarding the structural changes often associated with vestigial languages. Its relative isolation from other dialects of Spanish for over two hundred years serves as a sort of linguistic "time capsule" which provides information that is relevant to critical outstanding issues in Hispanic dialectology and historical linguistics. In addition to examining these issues, documenting the specific characteristics of Brule Spanish, and comparing Brule Spanish with other modern Spanish dialects, this book presents a very accessible introduction to the field of language death. STANDARDS AND VARIATION IN URBAN SPEECH SOME EXAMPLES FROM LOWLAND SCOTS Ronald K.S. Macaulay 1997 x, 201 pp. Varieties of English Around the World, 20 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 717 9 Price: US$64.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4878 8 Price: Hfl. 120,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com Standards and Variation in Urban Speech is an examination and exploration of the aims and methods of sociolinguistic investigation, based on studies of Scottish urban speech. It criticially examines the implications of the notions 'vernacular', 'standard language', 'Received Pronunciation', 'social class', and 'linguistic insecurity'. Through a combination of quantitative and qualitative methods using examples from comedians' jokes, dialect poetry, formal and informal interviews, and personal narratives, the work illustrates the actual norms that speakers exemplify in various ways. For further information please e-mail Bernadette Keck: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 15:52:39 -0300 From: jose antonio aciar Subject: Start/Begin ??? Hello All !! First of all, I would like to tell you all, that my English is really poor. So, I want to apologize in advance. You would have to understand how scared I am. The question is: I always doubt when I have to use the verb "Start" or the verb "Begin" to describe some action or activity (or whatever) I am doing or I did. Briefly, I don't know when I have to use "Start" or when I have to use "Begin". Is there a sort of rule that helps me in those situations ? -examples will help a lot- Excuses again if the question is too naive. Jose Aciar San Juan - Argentina. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 18:27:11 -0500 From: Jacinta Dominguez Subject: Re: HBO and TV life is too completed as it is let it rest no offense ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:20:17 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves Subject: Informants Dear Aaron, I suggest you contact the American School in St. John's Wood, London NW8,= or another similar establishment in Cobham, Surrey -- you'll find America= n families thicker than flies at a Methodist picnic. All the best, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Aug 1997 21:31:07 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Informants To add to the note copied below -- I attended "ASL" (L for London) together with two siblings from 1972-74, though I don't know if you are looking for Americans (Michiganders) exposed to British English (and vice versa) from *that* far in the past.... I had the virtue and/or vice of being interested at that period in language.... Many of the American kids attending ASL at that time were really "right off the boat" -- midwesterners and southerners with no prior exposure to British English at all, whose fathers were transferred there for a few years to work for multinationals or in North Sea oil or the like. It was quite a language-shock for a lot of them (leaving the culture-shock aside). Greg Downing/NYU At 09:20 PM 8/5/97 -0400, you wrote: >Dear Aaron, > >I suggest you contact the American School in St. John's Wood, London NW8, >or another similar establishment in Cobham, Surrey -- you'll find American >families thicker than flies at a Methodist picnic. > >Orin Hargraves > Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Aug 1997 to 5 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Aug 1997 to 6 Aug 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 228 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Informants 2. HBO and TV 3. devel. of flaccid /flaesid/ pron.? (3) 4. Garcia (Marquez) 5. 6. Is ... is ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 12:59:51 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Re: Informants Actually, I'm looking for Americans that have been in some contact with RP/ScSE for at least a year, and still are in contact with it. "Fresh off the boat" would be great if I could afford a longitudinal study, but a three year degree doesn't allow for much. Thanks, though, Aaron On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: }To add to the note copied below -- I attended "ASL" (L for London) together }with two siblings from 1972-74, though I don't know if you are looking for }Americans (Michiganders) exposed to British English (and vice versa) from }*that* far in the past.... I had the virtue and/or vice of being interested }at that period in language.... } }Many of the American kids attending ASL at that time were really "right off }the boat" -- midwesterners and southerners with no prior exposure to British }English at all, whose fathers were transferred there for a few years to work }for multinationals or in North Sea oil or the like. It was quite a }language-shock for a lot of them (leaving the culture-shock aside). } }Greg Downing/NYU } }At 09:20 PM 8/5/97 -0400, you wrote: }>Dear Aaron, }> }>I suggest you contact the American School in St. John's Wood, London NW8, }>or another similar establishment in Cobham, Surrey -- you'll find American }>families thicker than flies at a Methodist picnic. }> }>Orin Hargraves }> } }Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu } ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 11:08:21 -0400 From: Brenda Lester Subject: Re: HBO and TV "He ain't heavy; he's my brother." On Tue, 5 Aug 1997, Larry Horn wrote: > Re Barry's > > "GARTH LIVE FROM CENTRAL PARK > >>Thursday, August 7, 8 PM ET/PT > >>HBO > >>IT'S NOT TV. IT'S HBO." > > > >HBO is not tv?? What is it, a frog? > > A common enough ploy, especially in advertising. From my collection (to > illustrate what I like to call metalinguistic negation): > > It's not a car. It's a Volkswagen. (commercial and advertisement, 1980's) > > Or, more ominously, > > They weren't people, Sir. They were the enemy. > (Lt. William Calley, during court-martial for his participation in > My Lai massacre.) > > --Larry > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:23:39 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: devel. of flaccid /flaesid/ pron.? I was recently asked about the development of the pronunciation /flaesid/, rather than the older and preferred form /flaeksid/, for _flaccid._ The more I think about it, the less sure I am of how this pronunciation could have developed. I'm not sure how early it is, but some turn-of-the-century usage books specify /flaeksid/, which suggests that there was variation at that time. Most words with an orthographic -cc- have this element pronounced as /ks/ (accident, accept, etc.) or /k/ (accommodate, desiccate, occur, etc.), with some foreign exceptions (bocci, fettuccini). So it would seem that a person unfamiliar with _flaccid_ would generalize it probably to the "correct" /flaeksid/ rather than an /s/. It also seems that there are enough very common words with the -cc- going to /ks/ that there wouldn't be any need to assimilate to /s/. The only word I can think of with -cc- /s/ is a variant pronunciation of _succinct_ with an /s/, but here one could either explain it as an assimilation to the first s or as a loss of the /k/ at the end of an unaccented first syllable, which is not the pattern of _flaccid._ Leaving aside any considerations of spelling, one might predict a /flaesid/ pron on the analogy of such far more common words as _acid, lucid,_ or _placid,_ and perhaps the explanation is as simple as this. I'm not very knowledgable about pronunciation, so I'd welcome any input anyone has. Thanks, Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 15:33:48 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Re: devel. of flaccid /flaesid/ pron.? On Wed, 6 Aug 1997, Jesse T Sheidlower raised interesting questions about the "development of the pronunciation /flaesid/, rather than the older and preferred form /flaeksid/, for _flaccid._." For various reasons, including personal ones, I have long been interested in the question. I have a modest amount of (pilot) survey material that I expect to "get back to" eventually. Right now, I am about to go on vacation, so I will defer further comment until late August. Best, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 311/1117 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:23:03 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: devel. of flaccid /flaesid/ pron.? I doubt that people would generalize a strange word like 'flaccid' to a /ks/ pronunciation; rather, I would predict /s/ on analogy with 'acid,' 'lucid,' etc. Indeed, 'accept' is sometimes pronounced [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sEpt]; the African American educator Norma Stokes (correct name?) uses this pronunciation in the video "American Tongues." The /s/ variant here may be motivated by a distinction between 'accept' and 'except' though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 16:39:24 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Garcia (Marquez) Ah, but note that Eric (or Eirikur) Ericsson and his sister Ericsdottir are never surnamed after their mother (unlike the very nice Spanish system). So one must still trace ancestry through the males in the family, as I did last summer in Sweden: Olof Larsson and his wife Stina ? begat Lars Gustaf Olofsson, who begat Frans Gustafsson (Swedes like to go by their middle names), etc.; but Gustaf's sister was Sara Lisa Olofsdottir, not Stinasdottir, and when she married Jonas Johannesson their son was named Gustaf Jonasson, not Lisasson. My grandfather the immigrant, born Jonas Peter Olofsson, became simply John Olson in this country--but that was no less confusing for the postal system in Minnesota! Beverly Olson, now Flanigan--an equally confusing, and usually misspelled, name. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 17:41:50 -0500 From: Melissa Larranaga Subject: SIGN OFF ADS-L MELISSA LARRANAGA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Aug 1997 19:21:13 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Is ... is The New York Times today, quoting Kurt Vonnegut: "How can I know whether I'm being kidded or not, or lied to?" he asked, from his home on eastern Long Island, N.Y., where he somewhat defiantly does not surf the Net or get e-mail. "I don't know what the point is except is how gullible people are on the Internet." Now here is the dilemma. Is the revered Vonnegut playing fast and loose with syntax and grammar or has the revered New York Times misquoted him? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Aug 1997 to 6 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Aug 1997 to 7 Aug 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 310 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Birthsurfing; Facelift; Less Is More; Supermodels 2. Research position vacant 3. Vonnegut and "culprit zero" (was: "Is...is") 4. RE>Vonnegut and "culprit zero" (was: "Is...is") 5. "Culprit Zero" attribution (2) 6. parky ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 00:14:48 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Birthsurfing; Facelift; Less Is More; Supermodels BIRTHSURFING WHERE IS GARETH BRANWYN? GET HIM OVER HERE! I'M COINING A NEW WORD! ****BIRTHSURFING**** Yes, when you see this in American Speech's "Among the New Words," remember you saw it on ADS-L first! Today is Hiroshima Day, the anniversary of the day the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. People dress up in death masks and chant "Never again!" It is also, naturally, my birthday. I was reading some mail and news and sports scores. I didn't realize the time, but it must have been 12:01 a.m. I received a flashmail message on AOL from HunnyBeth: "Happy Birthday!" I don't know a HunnyBeth. She "birthsurfed" my AOL bio, found out that today was my birthday, and was the first person to wish me a happy birthday. I thanked her. "It's my birthday, too!" she wrote. I checked her AOL bio. She's a seventeen-year-old girl from Michigan. "17!" she wrote. I wished her a happy birthday--I mean, what did she want me to do? A few moments later, I got a flashmail message from ILuvDakota. "Happy birthday!" wrote ILuvDakota. She's an eighteen-year-old girl from Connecticut. I was about to reply, when there was ANOTHER flashmail message-- "Happy birthday!" wrote EboneQueen, an eighteen-year-old girl (WHERE OH WHERE IN MY AOL BIO DID I WRITE THAT I WANTED THIS?!) from North Carolina. This is the first time that I had been online on my birthday at 12:01 a.m. Last year I was in Scotland at an ICOS conference (on Names). The year before I had Panix, not AOL. And if this is happening to me, it's probably happening to loads of others. Ask your AOL friends to sign on at 12:00 a.m. on their birthdays if they want the attention. It probably works for young kids. One says "Hi," the other says "Hi," and maybe they get together. For others, however, the flashmail birthday messages can be a real pain in the ass. There should be a word for this, so: BIRTHSURFING: Wishing a "Happy Birthday" to a complete stranger on his/her birthday, usually at the stroke of midnight. BIRTHDATING: "Dating" a person who has just "birthsurfed" you. BIRTHBAIT: What happens when you have been "birthsurfed" by "jailbait." I talked briefly to all three, but how? I tell them my age and they call me a pervert, when I didn't even do anything in the first place! I was in my apartment reading! PRESIDENT CLINTON: I want every thirteen-year-old on the internet! Thanks, Prez. For my next birthday, I'm going to sleep. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- FACELIFT A recent movie was titled FACE/OFF. I found some stuff about this on my way to "supermodel." Vogue for 1 November 1971, pg. 68, col. 3, has an ad for a product called "FACE-LIFT." Vogue for 15 September 1971, pg. 115+, has an article "FACE-LIFTS/when?...how?...if?" by Simona Morini. She credits Dr. Charles Conrad Miller of Chicago for giving the first "face-lift" in the early 1900s. In 1912, a Madame le Docteur A. Noel of Paris noticed this and began giving face-lifts in Europe. An article in the New Republic, 25 November 1931, pg. 40, col. 1, "Beauty for Sale," begins: "BEFORE an audience of fifteen hundred women in the Grand Ballroom of the Pennsylvania Hotel in New York City, a plastic surgeon performed what was described in the newspapers as 'the first public face-lifting operation on record.'" OED has 1934 for "face-lift" and 1922 for "face-lifting." It appears to be way off the mark on both entries. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LESS IS MORE A Vogue article on swimsuits was titled "Less is More." Hard to disagree with the photos that were provided. The December 1971 Vogue, pg. 169, cols. 1-2 on Piet Mondrian is titled "'Less is more' art." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUPERMODELS One more try. Vogue, June 1972, table of contents (I don't see a page number), has "Naomi Sims, Supermodel--in real life." The article itself on page 122 says "'BEAUTY SURPASSES PREJUDICE'/NAOMI SIMS/SUPER MODEL." No space in one, a space in the other. A check of Vogue in 1978 (the SUPERMAN: THE MOVIE year) found in September 1978, page 463, "Supermodel 'Ultima' woman, actress Lauren Hutton." I didn't see any "supermodels" in Vogue earlier than this June 1972 citation; certainly, it was not there in the May 1972 portrait of Veruschka (Newsweek called her a supermodel a few years later). In March 1, 1972, pg. 118, "Cybill (Shepherd) at twenty-one is a top model." On page 123, "Fashion designer Halston said of her (Donna Jordan), 'She's an original, a superstar! Extravagant-looking, flamboyant, superchic, mad...'" Two things--which you wouldn't find on a NEXIS search strictly for "supermodel"--may be important. Vogue, December 1971, pp. 102-103, is about the Andrew Lloyd-Webber & Tim Rice rock-opera JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR, "Why is Super-star a super-hit?" Also, in the October 15, 1971 issue, Vogue introduced Dr. Robert Atkins's "SUPER DIET." Page 148 lists THE SUPER RULES, THE SUPER VEGETABLES, THE SUPER SALAD MATERIAL, THE SUPER PLOT, and SUPER NO-NO'S. Pages 104-105 introduce the thing: It's a Social Smash with the Lunch Group...it's the Thin Thing Inside an Obsessive Cook... it's a New Achievement Plan for a Lean Loner... it's SUPER DIET It would appear, therefore, that both "superman" and "superstar" gave us "supermodel." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BIRTHSURFING, again I'm writing this online. Weasle2614 and RaraWeebol both sent Happy Birthday e-mails. Flash messages of "Happy Birthday" came from BethB213 (in Indiana), It sleeps (a nineteen-year-old girl), and MRWINN1. "Birthsurfing" is clearly a phenomenon to be recorded for the ages. GET ME GARETH BRANWYN! WHERE IS GARETH BRANWYN?? P.S. Marilyn, if you're out there, could you sing something...? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:51:37 GMT+1000 From: David Blair Subject: Research position vacant The Australian National Place Names Project has a 2-year research position available, suitable for a post-doctoral student with experience in toponymy and dialect research. The aim of the National Place Names Project is to construct a comprehensive database of an estimated 4 million Australian place names, compiled on a linguistic, etymological and historical basis. The appointee will develop the methodologies, the procedures and the regional structures that are necessary for the Project to succeed. I won't take up further bandwidth with details; anyone who is interested could e-mail me direct, and I can send the information package. Closing date for applications is 1 September. David Blair Head of School English, Linguistics & Media MACQUARIE UNIVERSITY NSW 2109 AUSTRALIA Phone: 02 9850 8736 Fax: 02 9850 6900 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:14:22 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: Vonnegut and "culprit zero" (was: "Is...is") The larger context of Duane Campbell's quotation of Kurt Vonnegut as quoted in the New York Times -- "How can I know whether I'm being kidded or not, or lied to?" he asked, from his home on eastern Long Island, N.Y., where he somewhat defiantly does not surf the Net or get e-mail. "I don't know what the point is except is how gullible people are on the Internet." -- brings in another interesting usage. Recently a column by a Chicago Tribune columnist (beginning "Wear sunblock") was spread all over the 'Net as Kurt Vonnegut's commencement address to MIT, much to the surprise of both the columnist and Mr. Vonnegut, who has never given an address at MIT. (I've unfortunately lost the mailings, and am trying to recover them for proper citation.) That is what he must be referring to in the above quotation. The columnist wrote a followup column, in one paragraph of which she described her vain attempt to trace the hoax back to the original poster, whom she labeled "culprit zero" without discussion. To me, that term was an obvious allusion to "Patient Zero", the hypothesized (and, I think, eventually identified?) vector who first broadcast AIDS in the European and American gay communities. (If I am misremembering anything critical about this theory I am sure I will be corrected.) Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 11:40:20 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Vonnegut and "culprit zero" (was: "Is...is") I think you'll find that "patient zero" is used in many attempts to track any biological contagion. Compare with "index patient," another interesting usage in that field. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 8/7/97 11:31 AM To: Grant Barrett From: Mark Mandel To me, that term was an obvious allusion to "Patient Zero", the hypothesized (and, I think, eventually identified?) vector who first broadcast AIDS in the European and American gay communities. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 12:48:00 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: "Culprit Zero" attribution Lest I compound the confusion of who said what when, here is (edited) the text in which I found the expression "Culprit Zero". It was not used by the columnist, Mary Schmich, but by Bob Weide, who wrote to the Vonnegut Newsgroup... at least, according to what I've seen. Anyone who cares enough about this to want the full text with headers of the message this is extracted from may have it from me for the asking. ================================== Wooops! I've just seen the followup to the posting of this on alt.fan.mike-jittlov : it looks like we've been had. [...] Forwarded (and tidied up) post follows: >Bob Weide, Vonnegut's friend and the author & co-producer of the movie >rendition of "Mother Night", wrote: >:Yesterday I confirmed for the Vonnegut Newsgroup that the MIT address >:attributed to Kurt, and spread all over the Web, was a hoax. It was not >:written nor delivered by Kurt at MIT or anywhere. Copies of this thing >:were E-mailed to me from all corners -- even received one from Scotland. [...] >:There is a columnist for the Chicago Tribune named Mary Schmich. The >:words were hers, in her column from the June 1 issue of the Trib. She >:never passed it off as Vonnegut's, nor was his name ever evoked in the >:column. [...] >:The missing piece of this puzzle is: Who is Culprit Zero? That is, >:who originally placed it on the Internet, crediting it to Kurt? Mary >:Schmich, whom I spoke with today (a very nice woman, by the way), was >:horrified at the idea that anyone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 16:05:26 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: parky I'm told that "parky" for a city park attendant is a NYC shibboleth. Can some of you fill me in on that? (Dates, places, sample sentences.) Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 7 Aug 1997 14:28:24 -0700 From: Sylvia Swift Subject: Re: "Culprit Zero" attribution On Thu, 7 Aug 1997, Mark Mandel wrote: > Lest I compound the confusion of who said what when, here is (edited) > the text in which I found the expression "Culprit Zero". It was not used > by the columnist, Mary Schmich, but by Bob Weide, blah blah blah but schmich apparently also said it. from the version of the retraction i got: >I regret my part in circulating this cyber-myth and >wish to thank John LeBlanc for calling the error >to my attention and providing the URL for >the below column (http://www.chicago.tribune.com/news/current/schmich.htm) > > jessea greenman > > >---- > > TODAY'S COLUMN blah blah blah >Hoping to find the source of this prank, I traced one e-mail backward >from its last recipient, Hank De Zutter, a professor at Malcolm X College >in Chicago. He received it from a relative in New York, who received it >from a film producer in New York, who received it from a TV producer in >Denver, who received it from his sister, who received it. . . . > >I realized the pursuit of culprit zero would be endless. I gave up. > sylvia swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]socrates.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Aug 1997 to 7 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Aug 1997 to 8 Aug 1997 There is one message totalling 63 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Subliminal Seduction" of the week ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Aug 1997 03:15:12 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: "Subliminal Seduction" of the week Open the Village Voice this week (12 August 1997) and check out the Camel ad on page 29. It's the one thing you'll remember from the entire paper. This is perhaps the "subliminal seduction" ad of the year. Camel, as you know, willingly surrendered its Joe Camel ads. The Village Voice is supposedly the beacon for truth and freedom, yet there is a full page Budweiser beer ad on page 9, a full two-page Winston cigarette ad on pages 10-11, a full-page Malboro cigarette ad on Voice Choices page 3, a full-page Heineken beer ad on Voice Choices page 9, a two-page "Camel Page" on Voice Choices pages 28-29, and that unforgettable Camel ad on page 29. With a steady flow of beer and cigarette advertising, no wonder our "alternative" weeklies are "free." In 1973 (about 25 years ago), Wilson Bryan Key published SUBLIMINAL SEDUCTION: AD MEDIA'S MANIPULATION OF A NOT SO INNOCENT AMERICA. The furor has died down since the subliminal-hunting sessions of my grade school days, but Kevin Nealon did a "Mr. Subliminal" character on Saturday Night Live a few years ago. A computer check shows only a few "subliminal seduction" hits, but one of them was a Key lecture at the University of Arkansas on 2-21-97, at http://www.uark.edu/campus-resources/travinfo/2-21-97/speaker.html: One example is the popular camel on the Camel cigarette package. "This camel is an American icon," Key said. "It's been a part of our image since it was designed in 1913. However, in the front half of the camel's body, there is an image of a man with an erection." Some of the modern Joe Camel advertisements show images of the male and female genitalia incorporated into the camel's face. "Now that's ingenuity," Key said. Now, let's take a look at a NEW Camel ad. It's the full-color ad on page 29 of the Voice, but no doubt it's in many other publications as well. At first glance, there's nothing subliminal about it. A sexy woman is glowing in the lights, sucking an ice cube. No cigarettes are shown, but we all get the idea. Buy a pack of Camels and boy, that "MENTHOL" really cools you off!! "What you're looking for," it says. I want to buy a pack, and I don't even smoke! The woman shows the palm of her hand, which holds dripping water that conveniently forms the shape of a camel. Obviously, this was painted or airbrushed on. In fact, a lot of this is a painting. Key showed a glass of ice cubes on the book cover of SUBLIMINAL SEDUCTION. Ice melts fast under the lights, so whenever you see an ice cube in an ad, you can almost count on subliminals. The first thing you notice about her is her eyes. Look at her eyes. In each of her eyeballs, hands are clearly visible! What do you know! It helps you call attention to HER hand, which has the Camel on it! Look at that ice cube again. There's a white circle in the center of it. It's the top of a cigarette! Look to the left, at that triangular brown spot near the strap of her dress. Now turn the page over completely. That brown spot looks like--well, I can't mention it here. Look again at the ice cube, now with it upside down. Above the woman's ring finger tip, in a little corner there, you should see a face. The face is clearly looking at a pair of circles, which appear to form a woman's-- For all the flak the tobacco companies have been taking, I'm looking at page 29 of this week's Voice, and they're still doing the same job! Maybe it's time to bring "subliminal seduction" back into the vernacular. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Aug 1997 to 8 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Aug 1997 to 9 Aug 1997 There is one message totalling 80 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES review; "Supermodels" again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 9 Aug 1997 22:34:58 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES review; "Supermodels" again BOOK REVIEW: LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES: A LIGHTHEARTED LOOK AT HOW FOODS GOT THEIR NAMES by Martha Barnette 213 pages, $20 Times Books, Random House (1997) David Shulman told me about this. "There's a new book on food words," he said. Really? WHY???????????????? Was anything really wrong with the first ten or so books about this? Sure, none of them were too scholarly (perhaps Christine Ammer's book was the best of this type), but still.... LADYFINGERS doesn't have a bibliography. If you're doing a book that's been done before, that's a pretty good idea. Let's wait before I throw this book completely across the room. Let's see page 119: As for _hot dog_, at the beginning of this century a famous cartoonist named T. A. "Tad" Dorgan supposedly drew one of these sausages to resemble a dachsund on a long bun, a sort of visual pun that played upon the fact that the funny-looking dog was a jocular symbol for things German, as well as the growing public suspicion that these sausages contained meat from sources other than farm animals. Was there no one at Times Books/Random House to stop this? Oh well. "A LIGHTHEARTED LOOK AT HOW FOODS GOT THEIR NAMES." Make that really, really light. When you're doing the 11th book on a subject, it really shouldn't be worse than the other ten.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUPERMODELS, N.Y.P.L. again I went to the Barnes & Noble on East 54th and Third Avenue (Citicorp Building) to buy MODEL: THE UGLY BUSINESS OF BEAUTIFUL WOMEN by Michael Gross. The book came out in hardcover in 1995 and paperback in 1996. B&N, however, has a six-month attention span. The book was out of stock, but "there's a Barnes & Noble at Third and 47th Street." I walked to the Barnes & Noble at Third and East 47th Street. The book was out of stock, but "there's a Barnes & Noble at Third and 54th Street..." I JUST CAME FROM THE BARNES & NOBLE AT THIRD AND 54TH STREET!! I'M NOT GOING BACK THERE!!!! (New word: BARNES & NOBHELL, cf. A-O-HELL. "To be caught in an infinite, hellish loop of Barnes & Noble stores trying to get your damn book.") "...there's a Barnes & Noble at Fifth and 48th Street..." I went to the Barnes & Noble at Fifth and 48th Street. It was out of stock. I was told to check upstairs in the art section, and maybe there'd be a copy. There was. Only a three-store Barnes & Nobhell. Gross has this on page 16: So as (Cindy) Crawford sat around Demarchelier's studio that day, she wasn't just a model but a supermodel. The term itself wasn't new (it had first been used in the 1940s by Clyde Matthew Dessner, the owner of a small model agency), but the phenomenon was. This would put "supermodel" even closer to "Superman." However, "top model" and "high fashion model" would be used until "supermodel's" rise in the 1970s. Gross gave no footnote, but Dessner wrote a 1948 book called SO YOU WANT TO BE A MODEL! I knew what would be next at the New York Public Library. Once upon a time, you could actually go to the Annex and get your books the same day! I handed in the call slips. "You have to take this to Science and Business on 34th Street and Madison...this is at the Schomburg Library on 135th Street...this is at the Annex. Your book will come next week. Speak to a librarian." Next week--if it's on the shelf!! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Aug 1997 to 9 Aug 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Aug 1997 to 10 Aug 1997 There is one message totalling 18 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Vogue word references? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 10 Aug 1997 15:57:48 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Vogue word references? I'm doing a bit of work on vogue words, and if anyone has references to discussions of them, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks in advance. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Aug 1997 to 10 Aug 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Aug 1997 to 11 Aug 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 291 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. FWD: Undeliverable mail: SMTP delivery failure 2. Vogue word references? 3. vogue words:early references 4. Minivan; IHOP's supper/dinner; the Wave; NYPL again 5. Hi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:23:26 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: FWD: Undeliverable mail: SMTP delivery failure --Boundary (ID 7KXpjvQJx050eXPpWSOu2A) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII --Boundary (ID 7KXpjvQJx050eXPpWSOu2A) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:37 EDT From: PMDF Mail Server Subject: Undeliverable mail: SMTP delivery failure To: FLANIGAN Message-id: <01IMBEIBKR6E8WY7KR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg)" Delivery-date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:20:00 EDT Posting-date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:20:41 EDT Importance: normal A1-type: MAIL --Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The message could not be delivered to: Addressee: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ads.uga.edu Reason: Illegal host/domain name found. --Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:12:28 EDT From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: flaccid /flaesId/ To: ads-l Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID 43bngPPO1sTcgMs2Thxr6A)" Posting-date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:00 EDT Importance: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential A1-type: MAIL --Boundary (ID 43bngPPO1sTcgMs2Thxr6A) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII At the opthamalogist's office today I heard "occipital" pronounced [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sIp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]d[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l] (but not by the doctor)--clearly another uncommon word assumed to be pronounced with /s/, not /ks/. --Boundary (ID 43bngPPO1sTcgMs2Thxr6A) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:20:44 EDT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Importance: normal A1-type: DOCUMENT RFC-822-headers: Received: from conversion.ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IMBEI6TITS8WY8CZ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> for ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ads.uga.edu; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from a1.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IMBEI3A01C8WY7AP[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> for ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ads.uga.edu; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:26 -0400 (EDT) Alternate-recipient: prohibited Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:12:28 +0000 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: flaccid /flaesId/ To: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ads.uga.edu Message-id: Posting-date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:00 +0000 Importance: normal Priority: normal Sensitivity: Company-Confidential UA-content-id: A6251ZWYYKGY5G A1-type: MAIL --Boundary (ID 43bngPPO1sTcgMs2Thxr6A)-- --Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:20:45 EDT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Importance: normal A1-type: DOCUMENT Note: The original return address on this message was blank and has been replaced with the address of the local postmaster. --Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:20:45 EDT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Importance: normal A1-type: DOCUMENT RFC-822-headers: Received: from ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IMBEIB9DH08WY7KR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> for FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu; Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:19:37 +0000 From: PMDF Mail Server Subject: Undeliverable mail: SMTP delivery failure To: FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu Message-id: <01IMBEIBKR6E8WY7KR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu> --Boundary (ID vzCzoIIzU0w7snJrOWx+tg)-- --Boundary (ID 7KXpjvQJx050eXPpWSOu2A)-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:01:42 -0500 From: Thomas Creswell Subject: Re: Vogue word references? Jesse, Just in case you don't remember. Vogue words were, in the late 60's/early 70's referred to as "buzz words." Someone gave me a book with that title (long ago discaarded) but I thought that a search for that term might be useful in your research. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:49:45 EST From: Boyd Davis Subject: vogue words:early references Early edns of Pyles and later Pyles and Algeo used the term, and John Algeo has written about vogue words for a good while. An early reference is to an article by Pyles in ALL THESE TO TEACH, a U.Fla festschrift for C A Robertson in the mid-60s, and you might also look at John's early-70s On defining the proper name. Don't have Fowler's BritUsage handy, but I think the term was used there (in the 1930s edn) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:05:27 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Minivan; IHOP's supper/dinner; the Wave; NYPL again MINIVAN "We added 'minivan' to the English language." --Sports Illustrated ad, 11 August 1997, pages 36-37, "Caravan, The New Dodge." There's an explanation for everything. A six-month subscription to Sports Illustrated began to arrive, with my father's name on it. My brother-in-law and I were puzzled. My father never read Sports Illustrated when he was alive. What time after he died did he decide to become a dentist? I asked my sister when she returned from her former nanny's wedding in England. At what time after dad's death did he become interested in the swimsuit issue? "He had unused frequent flyer miles. I checked it off." There's an explanation for everything! Anyway, in the ad mentioned above, Dodge takes credit for "minivan." It is true that the Caravan was announced in 1983, came out in 1984, and was a tremendous success. However-- Playboy, November 1984, page 112, has, "Volkwagen of Germany created the minivan in 1949, at least a decade before America though up the bigger ones. (...) Unfortunately for VW, though, Chrysler has invented the American minivan--Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager--and has done an absolutely bang-up job of it." Time, 3 October 1983, pg. 9, "Chrysler minivan, or 'T-wagon,' a hybrid combining the features of a station wagon and a van." Time, 13 February 1984, pg. 50, "Chrysler chairman Lee Iacocca and President Harold Sperlich first discussed building minivans in the mid-1973s, when both men were at Ford." Mid-1973s, at Ford?? NY Times, 14 September 1975, pg. 84, col. 8, "15-passenger minivans." NY Times, 14 January 1979, pg. 41, col. 1, "30 minivans." Enviroline, Congressional Info Inc., DOE Transp. Energy Conserv. Div., Report, July 1978, vol. 1, pg. 1003, "the battronic minivan electric delivery van." Jesse Sheidlower thinks "minivan" might date back to 1960. "Minibus," a sightseeing bus for zoos and parks, was manufactured by the Passenger Truck Equipment Company of Huntington Park, CA, from 1963-1980. If "minivan" was clearly being used in the 1970s, how could Chrysler have added it to the English language in 1984? Check out the two-page ad for a sports utility vehicle in the latest Wired. It shows a picture of the vehicle where the vehicle description (minivan/SUV/car) should be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- IHOP'S DINNER/SUPPER An IHOP tv commercial now airing does a fine take on dinner/supper that was previously discussed on ADS-L. Look for it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE WAVE In the Village Voice of 15 July 1997, pg. 117, cols. 2-4, was Nathan Ward's "THE DEATH OF THE WAVE: IT ONCE RULED STADIUMS. WHAT KILLED THE MAGIC?" Ward gives credit to the University of Washington's former cheerleader and later Entertainment Tonight host Robb Weller and U. of W. bandleader Bill Bissell at a Husky football game of 31 October 1981. No mention is made of an important "wave" article, Lisa Twyman's "WHENCE CAME THE WAVE? COLORADO HOCKEY OR FOOTBALL IN WASHINGTON?" in Sports Illustrated, 12 November 1984, pg. 11. Krazy George, a/k/a George Henderson, claims that he used it at Colorado Rockies hockey games, then at the nationally broadcast baseball playoff game in California between the Oakland A's and the New York Yankees, on 15 October 1981. I was in Seattle and at the U. of W. last year and forgot to verify this. I can do it when I go to the Library of Congress, though, on some future weekend. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- N.Y.P.L., again Naomi Sims, perhaps the first "supermodel" (Vogue called her that in 1972) left her papers to the New York Public Library. She's a black model. Books on most of the other "supermodels" are downtown, unless they're actresses (which means the books are in Lincoln Center), or black (which means the books are at the Schomburg Center in Harlem). I know these centers are helpful, but the NYPL is a real pain in the ass. I went to the Schomburg Center for the Naomi Sims papers. She left six boxes of stuff. Clearly, worth a special trip, until-- "These books are in Iron Mountain. You'll have to come back in 48 hours." Iron Mountain. IRON MOUNTAIN? WHY THE-- "We don't have space. You can call first before you come. We have a book request from Friday that still didn't arrive." But if I can't come back on Wednesday, would they hold it for a week...you see, I might want to have a life. "They'll be here on Wednesday," the librarian said. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 12:13:56 +0930 From: Adele Cook <9705894l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGPIE.MAGILL.UNISA.EDU.AU> Subject: Hi Hi My name is Adele and I have subscribed to this site purely out of interest. I am a first year Bachelor of Arts student at the University of South Australia, and I am majoring in Professional Writing and Communication. My lecturer recommended this site so I thought I'd give it a go. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Aug 1997 to 11 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Aug 1997 to 12 Aug 1997 There is one message totalling 26 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Minivan ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 08:57:16 -0700 From: David Harnick-Shapiro Subject: Re: Minivan On Mon, 11 Aug 1997 21:05, "Barry A. Popik" quotes: > Playboy, November 1984, page 112, has, "Volkwagen of Germany created the > minivan in 1949, at least a decade before America though up the bigger ones. > (...) Unfortunately for VW, though, Chrysler has invented the American > minivan--Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager--and has done an absolutely > bang-up job of it." Wasn't it called a "VW micro-bus"? (I wasn't driving in the 60s, much less 1949, but I do have vague memories of micro-bus being used. On the other hand, I am positive that my memory has been contaminated by the usage in Arlo Guthrie's ``Alice's Restaurant''.) -------- David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu Information and Computer Science University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Aug 1997 to 12 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Aug 1997 to 13 Aug 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 252 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Supermodels; El Nino/La Nina; IHOP; Bible Codes 2. Can Merriam-Webster Supply Citation? 3. Can Merriam-Webster Supply Citation? [Corrected Message] 4. minivan (2) 5. Minivan 6. minivan/microbus (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 02:19:49 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Supermodels; El Nino/La Nina; IHOP; Bible Codes SUPERMODELS Michael Gross's MODEL (1985) was correct. Clyde Matthew Dessner's SO YOU WANT TO BE A MODEL! (1948) has "super-model," but it's a stretch to say he "coined" it. Dessner ran Barbizon Models. Page 255 of his book mentions "the model of tomorrow." Then, on the last page (page 256), this person is described: She will be a super-model, but the girl in her will be like the girl in you--quite ordinary, but ambitious and eager for personal development. If Dessner had used "super-model" to name the book, or even a chapter of the book, or even given us a wink that he's coining something, I'd give it to him. But he simply uses it once in a 256-page book, and the term is not used again for about 25 years (1972). On page 242, Helen Bennett is an "ultra high-fashion model." THIS is the term he uses. "Top model" was (and is) used frequently and is the title of a current magazine. On page 245, we have the full term--"top-flight model." Somehow, "flight" took flight. In etymology, I've come across many stray, early citations--for "Big Apple," "science fiction," and "jinx," for example. If the citations are isolated in time (over ten years) and frequency (only one?) and the tone of use does not indicate an intended coinage, it's best to make note of the first citation, but not give it too much weight in the creation of the term. The 1948 term is "super-model"; the 1972 article had both "super model" and "supermodel" and was followed up by other citations. I'll go through Naomi Sims's papers soon--I still think she's the first "supermodel." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- EL NINO/LA NINA Time magazine this week has a story about the weather condition known as El Nino. This received a lot of hits on the web. Has anyone done any work on this and dated its introduction into English? La Nina--a counterpart--supposedly is much more recent. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- IHOP About my last posting, IHOP=International House of Pancakes. I'm explaining this because someone from Australia just joined this list, and IHOP is not truly international, despite its name! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BIBLE CODES For a truly horrible article about Bible codes, see today's "CRITIC'S NOTEBOOK: Is Destiny Just a Divine Word Game?" by Edward Rothstein, The New York Times, 12 August 1997, pg. C11, col. 1, and continued as "Is Destiny Merely a Divine Crossword Puzzle?" on pg. C12, cols. 3-6. Breakers are "On the cosmic 'Wheel of Fortune,' there are no vowels to buy," and "Mysterious codes are dashing hopes for human improvement." Codes are dashing hopes for human improvement? What cretin writes this? Rothstein writes that this "has inspired dozens of sites on the World Wide Web," yet provides no addresses. The best address (which has many links) is http://www.math.gatech.edu/~jkatz/Religions/Numerics/. Michael Drosnin's THE BIBLE CODE (add to new words of the year?) is mentioned, as is the article in STATISTICAL SCIENCE that set Drosnin off (the three authors of this article have denounced Drosnin's book). Drosnin uses a "Bible code" to go off an an Oliver Stone-type hunt for predictions of modern figures. He allegedly found a reference to Yitzhak Rabin's assassination, John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, et al. Codes in ancient texts can't be taken out of time. 666 in the Book of Revelations, for example, can be interpreted as a code in a proper historical context, but it was not written to be the number of Hitler! Drosnin's entire book is pure caca, and most people acknowledge this. An article was not necessary. However, Rothstein drags out Drosnin to make fun of ALL codes in EVERYTHING. That's like Hillary Clinton saying that people who believe in Whitewater are the same nuts who also believe in UFOs. No codes in literature, Rothstein? Take the greatest writer of the twentieth century--James Joyce. Go ahead, Rothstein, read ten pages of FINNEGAN'S WAKE! Any ten pages ya want. No one writes in code? Read six chapters in the Book of Revelations. Does anything make sense on its face? Read the Book of Jeu. There are bizarre numbers and diagrams in every section. That's not in code? That's understandable to you? Even ancient, contemporary critics of the gnostics, for example, acknowledged the use of codes. Ever read a gnostic gospel, Rothstein? The point is to explain the texts, to find meanings that were intended by the person or persons who wrote it. The new catchphrase "Bible code" is itself a misnomer--what text are we talking about? When was it written? What language was it in? The Old and New Testaments, for example, are not the same. "These codes," Rothstein writes, "from the kookiest to the most compelling, declare that cosmic forces dwarf our desires." Tell you what, Rothstein. Pick up a New York Times. Look at a Hirschfeld drawing. It might be signed "Hirschfeld3." It's a secret code! Honest! I solved it!! You'll find the name "NINA" hidden three times in that drawing! You know what that says about "cosmic forces that dwarf our desires?" NOTHING! "They proclaim our limitations and define the boundaries on our freedom," Rothstein continues. I have more to say about this (we'll even "solve" some "codes"), but writing like this is sickening. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 06:57:38 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Can Merriam-Webster Supply Citation? On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > MINIVAN > > Jesse Sheidlower thinks "minivan" might date back to 1960. "Minibus," a Dictionary. Can E. Ward Gilman or someone from Merriam-Webster supply the 1960 citation for _minivan_ from their files? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 07:01:49 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Can Merriam-Webster Supply Citation? [Corrected Message] On Mon, 11 Aug 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > MINIVAN > Jesse Sheidlower thinks "minivan" might date back to 1960. "Minibus," a My last message got garbled. What I meant to say is that the above is presumably a reference to the 1960 date in the Tenth Collegiate Dictionary. Can E. Ward Gilman or someone from Merriam-Webster supply the 1960 citation for _minivan_ from their files? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:23:35 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" Subject: minivan Look for the Austin Minivans in OED II under _mini-_. Apparently the Brits used it first. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 08:18:55 -0400 From: Leslie Dunkling <106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Minivan OED II also has minivan quotes under Head (n.) and Dormobile. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 11:52:56 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: minivan/microbus I definitely remember "microbus" from the 60s. In fact, when I saw Barry mention VW in the context of the word "minivan", I thought "No, they called it the microbus... or at least everyone else did." Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 17:25:57 -0400 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: minivan/microbus Re: the Volkswagon. I dunno. I had one in 1972 (lost the clutch coming down Pike's Peak and drove all the way to Jonesboro, Arkansas without one) and it was just a VW bus...or more often, that damn bus. I think the British use the prefix "micro". don't they have a car called a micro-mini? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 14:51:57 PDT From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: minivan/microbus My college roommate in the early sixties had a VW bus. (This discussion has caused me to forget whether we called it a minibus or microbus back then.) I do remember he had an option that you won't find today on any car, a spring-balanced 45 RPM record player that fit into the glovebox, or somewhere up there on the dash. CD player skips are nothing compared to what this baby could do to a record. It didn't have an automatic record dropper, so the copilot's job was to put on a new Chuck Berry record (they were new back then) every two minutes. -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Aug 1997 18:13:53 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: minivan I'm embarrassed that I missed _minivan_ among the _mini-_ combinations in OED (but it's not the first time I've missed something that was in the OED!). Thanks to E. Ward Gilman for pointing this out. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Aug 1997 to 13 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Aug 1997 to 14 Aug 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 106 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Full Monty; Reuben, Reuben; Tudor-tourist words 2. minivan/microbus ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:30:24 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Full Monty; Reuben, Reuben; Tudor-tourist words THE FULL MONTY THE FULL MONTY is a movie that just opened; the term was discussed by Evan Morris in his Daily News column last Sunday. THE MACMILLAN DICTIONARY OF CONTEMPORARY SLANG (3rd ed.) by Jonathon Green, for example, has "monte" but no "monty." The Daily News column didn't discuss this, but what about an influence from the obvious--MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS? What does that "Monty" mean? In other movie news, I just learned that Sylvester Stallone's COP LAND is not about Aaron Copland. Too bad--he could beat Apollo Creed in three notes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- REUBEN, REUBEN On my way between two branches of the NYPL, I often pass a restaurant at East 38th Street and Madison Avenue called Reuben's. The restaurant advertises "From a sandwich to a national institution." Was the Reuben sandwich made here? No, this was NOT the original Reuben's. The original was started in 1943 at 58th Street off Fifth Avenue (near my home) and went out of business in 1979. THIS Reuben's bought that name. THE FOOD LOVER'S COMPANION (Barron's Cooking Guide) has this on pages 478-479: REUBEN SANDWICH. Reportedly originally named for its creator, Arthur Reuben (owner of New York's once-famous and now-defunct Reuben's delicatessen), this sandwich is made with generous layers of corned beef, Swiss cheese and sauerkraut on sourdough rye bread. Reuben is said to have created the original version (which was reportedly made with ham) for Anne Seelos, the leading lady in a Charlie Chaplin film being shot in 1914. Another version of this famous sandwich's origin is that an Omaha wholesale grocer (Reuben Kay) invented it during a poker game in 1955. It gained national prominence when one of his poker partner's employees entered the recipe in a national contest the following year...and won. The Reuben sandwich can be served either cold or grilled. OED has it from 1956. American sandwich names deserves serious study. Fortunately, LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES just came out! Let's see, no "Reuben"...no "hero"...no "hoagie"...no "grinder"...no "submarine"...I still can't believe this book got published! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- TUDOR-TOURIST WORDS This continues an occasional series of tour guide etymologies. This is from the New York Post, 12 August 1997, pg. 56, cols. 1-6, "Rule of thumb: a Tudor-ial in the origins of English" by Nadine Godwin of Travel Weekly: (...) We collected the following during our house tours: . Bed and board. Tabletops were simply boards laid on top of wooden supports, and so, as the place where food was laid out the word board came to mean food, too. In addition, the boards were moved to the floor to serve as beds for guests. Hence, guests were offered bed and board. . Bonfire. Graves were emptied after about 20 years and the bones burned on a "bon fire." . By hook or by crook. People could have any food from public lands that they could extract from the ground with a hook or from trees with a crook. . Chairman of the board. This comes from the fact the head of the household was the only person to have his own chair, making him the chair man, and, sitting at the table, or board, he was chairman of the board. . Cold shoulder. This referred to a cold piece of meat, usually the shoulder of a carcass, that was served to an unwelcome guest. . Lick the platter clean. Diners literally licked their plates clean for reuse because the dishes were never washed. . Sleep tight. Several mattresses were stacked on the bed and supported by ropes strung from a wooden frame. One tied the ropes tight to keep from falling through to the floor. . On the shelf. Children slept on a braod shelf, and because they slept there until marriage, unwed daughters were still on the shelf. . Rule of thumb. A husband was encouraged to beat his wife, but was not to use a stick any wider than his thumb. (One more "rule of thumb" and I'll bring out the three words ending in "-gry"--ed.) . Square meal. Meals were square because the wooden trenchers that served as plates were square. . The dead of the night. These were the victims of the black plague, carried away at night for disposal. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Aug 1997 22:57:07 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: minivan/microbus Re the Great Minibus/Microvan debate: I too drove one--burgundy, with a bed in back and curtains, but sans record-player, from its birth in 1971 to its timely death in 1984, 120,000 miles and three engines later. (By that time, there were cookie sheets under the rubber mats to cover the rusted-out body.) Anyway, as I recall it, we called them "VW Vans" as a default; "microbus" was a sort of term of art that evoked the relevant era and lifestyle, and "VW microbus" might have been also used somewhat redundantly (I don't think anyone ELSE made anything we called a microbus). But "(VW) minivan" was another possibility, if I remember correctly, and was somewhat more politically and/or sociologically neutral than "microbus". Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Aug 1997 to 14 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Aug 1997 to 15 Aug 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 65 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. minivan/microbus (2) 2. More on Monty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 10:43:55 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: minivan/microbus The only thing I remember was a country song from the early '70s called "Convoy" by C.W. McCall. The convoy included: "...eleven long-haired friends of Jesus in a chartreuse microbus." Being a small child in an extremely conservative small town, I had no idea what a "microbus" (or "chartreuse" for that matter) was. > INTERGRAPH > Jessie Emerson > Channel Publications/Webmaster > Tel: 205/730-2711 Fax: 205/730-2718 > E-mail: jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ingr.com > WWW: http://www.intergraph.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 13:09:01 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: minivan/microbus At 10:43 AM 8/15/97 -0500, you wrote: >The only thing I remember was a country song from the early '70s called >"Convoy" by C.W. McCall. Totally irrelevant, but I seldom have an opening to pass on this bit of arcana. "C.W. McCall" was actually the pseudonym of Skip Davis, founding spirit of Mannheim Steamroller, which produces a very different kind of music. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 15 Aug 1997 23:35:44 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: More on Monty >From a letter to today's New York Times (8/15/97, A30): Your Aug. 13 movie review of "The Full Monty", on unemployed British steelworkers who turn to stripping, says the title comes from the slang for total nudity. Older readers might have recognized "Monty" as Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery, the dapper World War II hero. If the phrase now means total nudity, it is a reversal, like "bad" meaning "good". The original meaning was similar to "dressed to the hilt" (with medals and swagger stick)... I can't vouch for the accuracy of the etymology advanced by the writer, a Brooklynite named Paul Brodtkorb. And if anyone's wondering, that earlier review assured potential viewers that the movie contained no "full frontal montyism". --Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Aug 1997 to 15 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Aug 1997 to 16 Aug 1997 There is one message totalling 48 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Covenant Marriages" in today's Wash. Post ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 16 Aug 1997 01:57:25 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: "Covenant Marriages" in today's Wash. Post COVENANT MARRIAGES This has been a slow year for new words and phrases, but add "covenant marriages." This is from the Washington Post, 15 August 1997, pg. 1, cols. 1-2, also pg. A18 Cols. 1-6 and pg. A19 cols. 1-2: "Covenant Marriages" Ties the Knot Tightly Louisiana Begins Experiment in Commitment By Jon Jeter (...) As America grows increasingly preoccupied with the nation's high divorce rate and the troubled children it often produces, communities across the country are searching for solutions. Louisiana officials think they have the answer--a novel experiment called 'covenant marriage" that lawmakers hope will make wedding vows more meaningful and divorce more difficult. Beginning today, Louisiana will require couples to choose between two marital contracts, traditional or covenant, before tying the knot. Supporters of the new law contend that the mere offer by the state of a covenant marriage is tantamount to throwing a gauntlet at the couple's feet. They will have no obligation to pick it up, but the decision whether or not to do so should produce some intensified soul searching and serious discussions about commitment and compatability that could help families avoid breakups down the road. (This story is copyrighted, but the Washington Post is on the web.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- YES, WE HAVE NO "HOAGIES" TODAY I went to Washington, DC today. I didn't realize it, but there are busts of both Columbus and Amerigo Vespucci (Vespucci artwork is rare!) in the Blue Room of the White House. I have piles about Columbus and Vespucci statues in my "America Papers" that I'll discuss later. I had planned to throughly research "hoagie" at the Library of Congress, but I sat next to an attractive Argentine, Jewish law student on the bus. It was her first trip to Washington. I was just so darned kind. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Aug 1997 to 16 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Aug 1997 to 17 Aug 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 162 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BUZZWORDS: L.A. FRESHSPEAK review 2. Full Monty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 04:37:59 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: BUZZWORDS: L.A. FRESHSPEAK review Book Review: BUZZWORDS: L.A. FRESHSPEAK by Anna Scotti & Paul Young 144 pages, $9.95 St. Martin's Press, May 1997 Two quick confessions--I've never lived in Los Angeles, and I don't read the magazine BUZZ. BUZZ has celebrity stories, which are not rare in this world. Any magazine or newspaper can run a story about Julia Roberts or Jennifer Aniston. I briefly visited Los Angeles ten years ago and saw no reason to move from New York City. People in LA, I was told, don't even know they have a library. That's it for disclaimers. There are eight chapters of words about the film industry, sex, cars, neighborhood names, everyday life, youth slang, fashion, health, sports, work, drugs, and crime. The book starts with an introduction by Merrill Markoe. Right away you think, Merrill Markoe? THE Merrill Markoe? Couldn't get H. L. Mencken, eh? True, she was once a writer for David Letterman, and the two were once an item. But why her? Her introduction is all of about a page, and it adds nothing. Like all books on words that seem to be coming out now, there is no bibliography. No other books or articles on words are mentioned--not even the OED. The words aren't given even such simple information as "verb" or "noun." The words are not treated historically, and few citations are given. Couldn't they say, for example, that "going postal" was from the movie CLUELESS? That "NOT!" was from WAYNE'S WORLD? Guess not. There's no index! Four words are on the cover--where are they? What chapter? Help! The book reads like you already half-understand the words. If you don't, then you're in trouble. On page 84, for example, "UVs: sunshine. Also, _rays_." Any proper dictionary would state that this comes from Ultra-Violet. An entry on page 76, for example, is "ramboid: excessively excited." You have to figure out for yourself that it's from the movie RAMBO. The book is loaded with such poor entries. Some words are so standard you wonder why they're in the book. On page 112 is "hoops: the game of basketball." Then comes "hoopster: a basketball player" and "(to) play hoops: to play basketball. Also, _shoot hoops_." Why is this in a book on LOS ANGELES language? The terms are nationally used and probably didn't originate in Los Angeles. The illustrations are sparse, and the one illustration you expect to see is not here! A MAP OF LOS ANGELES!! The map would say South Central, Beverly Hills, Brentwood, Culver City, et al., with the neighborhood nicknames included and the neighborhoods described. Where do rich people live? Where do poor people live? WHERE IS THAT MAP???? Entire chapters are missing, also. Don't people eat? I can write an entire chapter on Taco Bell alone! Where's the California smoothie? Where's the "wrap" sandwich? WHERE IS THAT CHAPTER ON FOOD WORDS?? (There's always, uh, LADYFINGERS...) Where is OJ? Where is LAX? Where are the Dodgers? Where are the Lakers? Any slang from UCLA and USC (Trojan jokes, for example)? Where's that chapter on earthquakes? Wasn't there a movie about an L.A. earthquake? The Coast Is Toast? WHERE ARE THOSE EARTHQUAKE WORDS?? WHY ARE THESE CHAPTERS NOT HERE???? Let's go by section and start with the film industry. A film critic named Gary Franklin--obviously not one to offend--grades movies from 10 to 10+. "Ten-plus" is his word and genuine L. A. talk. Where is that? In the "Destinations" section, "L. A." and "Los Angeles" are included. Where is "the Big Orange"? Why isn't David Letterman's pronunciation "Los Angle-lease" here? Paul Dickson's LABELS FOR LOCALS has Angelino and Angeleno, plus Hollywoodize, Hollywoodish, Hollywoodery, Hollywoodese, Hollywooden, Hollywoodite, Hollywoodian, and Hollywooder. Couldn't the authors have included that stuff and taken out, for example, the computer terms and the stuff on hoops? Maybe the book didn't aspire to be a Los Angeles counterpart to Irving Lewis Allen's CITY IN SLANG (on New York City), but what exactly did it aspire to be? An uncredited ripoff of books such as Branwyn's JARGONWATCH and Dalzell's FLAPPERS 2 RAPPERS and articles on surfer slang? Again, I've never lived in Los Angeles and I haven't even been there in ten years, but still, if I know these things.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- LONELY PLANET AND "THE BIG APPLE" In June 1997, Lonely Planet added a new title to its many travel guides--New York, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania. On page 146 is a story about "the Big Apple" and a pathetic Parking Violations Bureau judge named Barry Popik. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUPERMODELS (again) The Schomburg Library said it would get my materials by Wednesday, but I had to meet with an accountant on Wednesday, the collection is closed on Thursday, and I had to meet with a broker in Washington, DC on Friday afternoon. I called Saturday (today) when they opened. "We were going to send it back," I was told. SEND IT BACK? When I arrived, THERE WAS NO ONE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE ROOM! IN TWO HOURS, ONE OTHER RESEARCHER CAME IN! Obviously, it was an unusual request to keep the two boxes on reserve for an entire week! The NYPL would be doing me a great favor!! Anyway.... SUPERFLY came out in 1972 and should possibly be considered as an influence on the June 1972 Vogue "SUPER MODEL" article on Naomi Sims. An advertisement sheet for "GENESIS 1974" on 20 September 1973 in Chicago has a picture of Naomi Sims and "SUPER MODEL" under it. A brochure for the program states that GENESIS 1974 "EXTENDS A HEARTY WELCOME TO MS. NAOMI SIMS and MS. BARBARA JACKSON, America's SUPER MODELS." In MULLINERY & WIG RESEARCH for 26 March 1975, page 1, cols. 1-2, under her photo is "Naomi Sims: A Super-Profile. Naomi Sims has earned a reputation far beyond that of a super-model to M&WR's interview of the author, wig designer, researcher, and businesswoman in her N.Y.C. home, turn to pgs. 4-5." The article there is titled "Naomi Sims: From Super-Model To Super-Businesswoman." Sims got her big break in 1967, when she appeared on the cover of Fashions of the (NY) Times. She then went to Ford Models, but Eileen Ford wouldn't even speak with her. An assistant suggested that Sims lose ten pounds (she was already slim), and that Ford "had too many models of her type." In 1967, Ford had no black models at all. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 17:31:45 -0400 From: Evan Morris Subject: Full Monty "Barry A. Popik" wrote: >THE FULL MONTY > > THE FULL MONTY is a movie that just opened; the term was discussed by >Evan Morris in his Daily News column last Sunday. > THE MACMILLAN DICTIONARY OF CONTEMPORARY SLANG (3rd ed.) by Jonathon >Green, for example, has "monte" but no "monty." > The Daily News column didn't discuss this, but what about an influence >from the obvious--MONTY PYTHON'S FLYING CIRCUS? What does that "Monty" mean? Oxford Dict. of Modern Slang has "monty" meaning "a certainty; used esp.of a horse considered certain to win a race" and relates it to the card game "monte." Partridge (DSUE) notes "monte (also monty)" as meaning "a certainty," also "Hence (?) a lie." Also mentions the card game. I know I had another reference but I can't remember where I found it. Mea culpa. I remember (to the extent I remember the sixties at all) reading an explanation of "Monty Python" offered by the troupe itself way back when. I believe they maintained that the name was pure silliness, though I think they also admitted a possible connection to Field Marshal Montgomery. I won't buy the NYT-Brooklyn-letter version of "full monty" without some serious evidence, BTW. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com Visit scenic alt.fan.word-detective! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Aug 1997 to 17 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Aug 1997 to 18 Aug 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 135 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. More on Monty (3) 2. "we be careful" 3. ounce(s) (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:05:42 PDT From: barbara harris Subject: Re: More on Monty Re "The Full Monty," the etymology quoted by Larry Horn makes perfect sense to me. I once, as a child, saw Montgomery in person, and seem to remember that the regalia included an ascot rather than a four-in-hand tie. I don't think there were medals, just ribbons, as it was not a ceremonial occasion, but the swagger stick was certainly there, As further evidence of this sort of usage, a few years ago some of the more sophisticated (in their opinion) Members of the (British Columbia) Legislative Assembly criticized their fellow MLAs who came from more remote areas of the province for wearing a form of summer apparel they call "full Nanaimos" -- Nanaimo being a city on Vancouver Island a two-hour drive north of Victoria (the capital). "Full Nanaimos" consisted of light-coloured trousers, a bright shirt (usually patterned), and, the trademark items, white buck shoes and a wide white belt. Are there any other examples of "[the] full _______" used this way? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:30:44 -0700 From: "A. Maberry" Subject: Re: More on Monty On Mon, 18 Aug 1997, barbara harris wrote: > > As further evidence of this sort of usage, a few years ago some of the more > sophisticated (in their opinion) Members of the (British Columbia) Legislative > Assembly criticized their fellow MLAs who came from more remote areas of the > province for wearing a form of summer apparel they call "full Nanaimos" -- > Nanaimo being a city on Vancouver Island a two-hour drive north of Victoria > (the capital). "Full Nanaimos" consisted of light-coloured trousers, a bright > shirt (usually patterned), and, the trademark items, white buck shoes and a > wide white belt. > > Are there any other examples of "[the] full _______" used this way? > I believe I have heard the term "the full Cleveland" used to describe a leisure suit, usually in a bright color, with a bright patterned shirt wide white belt and white shoes. I'm not sure if the heavy gold neck chains are required or not. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 12:38:54 PDT From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: More on Monty Are there any other examples of "[the] full _______" used this way? How about "the whole enchilada"? -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 15:03:05 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: "we be careful" This isn't news, but it's a data point. Such constructions as "we be" are often thought of as (substitute your preferred politically correct expression here), but this excerpt from a newsgroup (on the topic of the new Louisiana so-called "shoot-on-sight" anti-carjacking law) is a different breed of cat. For me, too, "be careful" has achieved status as a verb separate from "be" + Adj. "We don't get many carjackings here in Canada - or at least, the part that I live in. Also, we're not allowed to carry hidden weapons, so we just be careful I suppose. I lock the doors when I'm alone in the car, and generally keep an eye out when I'm driving in the big city. I've been lucky so far (knock on wood), and I know that the alarm has stopped would-be theives from taking my stereo out, etc. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 13:15:55 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: ounce(s) Does anyone have a cogent explanation for the _z_ in the abbreviation of _ounce_? Derivation from Lat. uncia via MEng. unce doesn't shed much light on the issue. And, my daughter asks, is the plural of the abbreviation _oz._ or _ozs._? (I can't remember ever seeing the latter.) Thanks. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:31:22 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: ounce(s) > > Does anyone have a cogent explanation for the _z_ in the abbreviation of > _ounce_? Derivation from Lat. uncia via MEng. unce doesn't shed much light > on the issue. It's an abbreviation of Italian _onza._ Plural is also _oz._ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 18 Aug 1997 16:45:08 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: ounce(s) Jesse S. is right of course -- and OED2 will give you a bit more information on how the abbreviation came into existence in Italian copyists' practice, and how it was written in 16/17C English texts (with a z extending below the base of the line, and connected to the o by a ligature). There's also a reference to Cappelli's 1899 Dizionario di Abbreviature. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Aug 1997 to 18 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Aug 1997 to 19 Aug 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 177 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Full Cleveland (3) 2. More on Monty 3. angioplasty vt? 4. Full Cleveland; "Subway Series" and NYPL again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 09:19:32 -0500 From: wachal robert s Subject: Full Cleveland In Cleveland for DSNA a couiple of years ago, I used the term "full Cleveland" amd discovered that hardly anyone in the audience knew the term (maybe the native Clevelanders who were present were mainly feignin ignorance!) I admitted that I did not know the origin of the term, does anyone? It sounds like a NewYorkerism. I also admitted not knowing what the term had to do with Cleveland or how Clevelanders dressed back in the 70's/80's when I think the outfit was popular here. It was typically worn by men, usually men with potbellies, men in their 60's. The Iowa version had the familiar wide white belt and white shoes, but required maroon trousers and a maroon double-knit jacket. Shirt wear was varuiable. it's OK with me if anyone wants to call it "the full Des Moines". Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:41:02 PDT From: barbara harris Subject: Re: More on Monty Unless it refers specifically to a style of dress, it seems to me that "the whole enchilada" is a bit of a red herring! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 14:45:53 PDT From: barbara harris Subject: Re: Full Cleveland Do you suppose that the ultimate origin of all these "full _____" terms is with the services, as in "full dress [uniform]"? Barbara Harris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 19:03:29 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves Subject: angioplasty vt? >From my brother I have the following e-mail message: Aunt Nellie has been to Denver to see a heart specialist. She had some blockages in her coronary arteries and aorta. They angioplastied some, bu= t she will have to have more surgery to clear the remainder in her aorta. S= he is doing better though. Is the verbal usage of angioplasty a coinage, or elsewhere attested? It seems like a pretty natural jump but this is the first I've seen or heard= of it. Orin Hargraves 438 Bankard Road Westminster, MD 21158 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Aug 1997 21:42:24 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Full Cleveland; "Subway Series" and NYPL again FULL CLEVELAND This is from FULL CLEVELAND by Les Roberts ("A Milan Jacovich novel"), St. Martin's Press, 1989, pg. 40: He was medium-size, if you happened to be talking about Cape buffalos, about six foot six and pushing two eighty, and not much of it was fat either. His reddish sideburns came down level with the bottoms of his rather pendulous earlobes, and his cinnamon brown eyes peered out of a round face that looked as though a six-year-old had fashioned it out of pinkish Play-Doh. His mustache drooped at the ends and was the same ginger color as his thinning hair. The loud breathing came through a nose that had long ago been broken and that hadn't been set properly. His skin had the kind of pallor that comes from a lot of years out of the sun--like in the penitentiary out ofthe sun. He was wearing the type of lowbrow outfit that unkind newspaper columnists have dubbed the "Full Cleveland"--a polyester leisure suit, this one in bilious lime green, over an open beige sports shirt with a vaguely Western design on the points of the collar. A white belt bisected his paunch and a pair of matching shiny white shoes with a few black scuff marks on the toes completed the ensemble. I couldn't be sure, but I thought it was the guy in the Toyota who had tailed me home from Joseph Zito's office. He was some piece of work. "Are you Milan Jacovish?" he said. He pronounced it correctly, as though the first letter were a Y. "Hello," I said. He had a nice smile, open and friendly. "My name is Buddy Bustamente." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SUBWAY SERIES (or, MTA: "GOING YOUR WAY") One more try at the origin of baseball's "Subway Series" (Yankees vs. Mets or Dodgers or Giants). The only other source (besides the NYPL) for the Subway Sun is the MTA. The MTA's new motto is "Going Your Way." (This assumes, of course, that you're not going straight to hell.) HBO ran "Subway Stories" last Sunday. In today's New York Times, pg. B9, cols. 5-6, "On Baseball" by Murray Chass, "This Could Be It For Yanks-Mets Finale," it begins "About that Subway Series..." I called the Transit Museum, but the number was disconnected. I called the MTA number, but it was busy. I called again later, and it was still busy. I called again later, and I got a 20-minute recorded announcement for the Metrocard. The MTA person told me I'd have to call the Transit Museum, and I got the new number. The Museum's open six days, but yesterday was Monday, and they were closed. I called again today, and got bounced around twice. "We have the Subway Sun. We have all of them. They're billboards that were put up in the subway cars." Great! "You'll have to schedule an appointment. But you can't do that for six weeks." Six weeks?? "Our archivist left in July. We have to hire another archivist. No one can have access until we hire an archivist by late September." GOING MY WAY?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- NYPL, again To make a copy in the new NYPL system, you first have to show your books to a librarian. There's only one, so you have to stand in line for half an hour. Then, you have to wait on line at copy services, and this takes another half hour. Then you are privileged to pay 25 cents per page. Then you have to wait another half hour until they copy it. I didn't have this kind of time to copy my books from the Annex--until today. I told the NYPL: Please, please, please, don't return my books to the Annex! I still want my books! Don't return them to the Annex! DON"T RETURN THEM TO THE ANNEX!! I came back today. All of the books had been returned to the Annex. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 10:49:12 +0800 From: Russ McClay Subject: Re: Full Cleveland barbara harris wrote: > > Do you suppose that the ultimate origin of all these "full _____" terms is > with the services, as in "full dress [uniform]"? ..might've missed someone else saying it, but adding: Full Metal Jacket Russ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Aug 1997 to 19 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Aug 1997 to 20 Aug 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 204 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. NWAVE 2. ADS Website new URL 3. is...is (variation on a theme) 4. thanks 5. ADS-L Digest - 18 Aug 1997 to 19 Aug 1997 6. Quebec English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:05:23 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: NWAVE Can someone direct me to information on this year's NWAVE meeting? Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:22:05 -0600 From: Andrew & Diane Lillie Subject: ADS Website new URL Because of continuing server problems, the ADS website has a new URL: http://www.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm Please visit at our new location and make the change in your bookmarks. Diane Lillie Webmaster ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 11:39:46 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: is...is (variation on a theme) A slightly different version, contributed by the mother of three sex-abuse victims commenting on a Texas monsignor's reaction to a verdict awarding $120,000,000 in finding the Catholic diocese in Dallas responsible for failing to stop a priest from abusing a large number of altar boys. Msgr. Robert Rehkemper complained that it was really the boys' parents who were responsible because they had failed to notice the abuse, and therefore must not have been particularly concerned about their children... "You can't even say he's in denial", said Gail Pawlik, the mother of three victims. "It's a profound arrogance, is what we're dealing with." --N.Y. Times, 8/9/97, p. 5 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 09:12:36 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: thanks To Bill Spruiell, Ditra Henry, Bethany Dumas, and a few others who responded to my "plea for advice" last April 17th: Thanks very much for your help. I was asking for suggestions for texts to use in a freshman composition course called "Language Matters," one that obviously is to deal with linguistic topics, but offer a good solid dose of writing pedagogy. For this round, I've decided to use Bill Bryson's lively _Made in America_ and to supplement it with a packet of duplicated materials ranging from Kurath's Word Geography to the Encycl. of Southern Culture. Add "American Tongues" and snippets from the tripartite Human Language Series videos, and I think we'll be all set for an interesting term. I should add that I have gleaned some excellent ideas from _Language Variation in North American English_ by A. Wayne Glowka and Donald M. Lance (NY: MLA, 1993). It's a crackerjack piece of work, ideal for this project. So a tip of the hat goes to all who contributed to that volume as well. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 14:22:10 -0500 From: mmcdaniel Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 18 Aug 1997 to 19 Aug 1997 <> As a medical editor, I attest to the fact that back formation of verbs is common in pre-edited medical manuscripts. The practice is shunned, however, by the American Medical Association Manual of Style. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Aug 1997 17:37:03 -0500 From: Dan Goodman Subject: Quebec English Wed 20 Aug 1997 - The Gazette (Montreal) - News - A1 / FRONT Quebec English elevated to dialect: The use of French words and meanings by anglophones is an outgrowth of living in post-Bill 101 Quebec, says the co-editor of Canada's first guide to proper English usage. By: INGRID PERITZ Illustration: Photo: GAZETTE FILE PHOTO / Anglophone Quebecers often use the word depanneur instead of corner store. When it comes to the English language, Quebec anglophones are distinct. They go to the depanneur and sip vin nouveau at vernissages, debate the place of allophones among pure-wool Quebecers. In short, we understand one another, but no one else does. Now, however, Quebec English has been given the experts' stamp of approval. Oxford University Press has just published Canada's first guide to proper English usage, and Quebec English earns recognition as a ``new Canadian regional dialect.'' Margery Fee, co-editor of the Guide to Canadian English Usage, said Quebec English is an outgrowth of living in post-Bill 101 Quebec. As more anglophones become bilingual and work in French, they're adopting French words and meanings. ``Quebec anglophones are immersing themselves into the culture of Quebec, and it's showing in their language,'' said Fee, an English professor at the University of British Colombia. Sometimes anglophones simply borrow French terms, such as souche, poutine, CEGEP and CLSC. But they also have started to borrow the meaning of French words and use them in English. For example, an animator in the rest of the world is a cartoonist. In French, an animateur is someone who organizes workshops or other events. So some Quebec anglos say, ``I need an animator for tomorrow's discussion group.'' If someone has your ``dossier'' outside Quebec, you might fear you're wanted by the police. But Quebec anglos often use the word dossier as the French do, as ``file'' or ``case.'' They say: ``I'm handling the partition dossier today.'' Someone in Montreal might say, ``The mayor is worried about the global issue of the population's security.'' Elsewhere, the mayor worries about ``the over-all issue of public safety.'' ``Anglophones use terms that other parts of the country would think of as really bizarre,'' Fee said. ``But you have no problem with them in Quebec.'' Loans from the arts and culinary world are especially popular. Art lovers in Montreal attend vernissages, while Torontonians go to openings. Order an entree in a Montreal restaurant and you expect an appetizer; leave the city, and an entree often means the main course. Perhaps no word better symbolizes the English community's readiness to adopt French words than ``anglophone.'' Twenty years ago, translators frowned on its use, preferring ``English speaker.'' Yet today, the word has been proudly seized by ``anglos'' as their own. ``With increasing contact between the two languages,'' the usage guide says, ``more and more French words - particularly those connected to provincial institutions, linguistic politics and local life - have been assimilated into English, resulting in a new Canadian regional dialect: Quebec English.'' No other province earned an entry in the guide. Quebec English is also the focus of a three-year study by Pamela Grant-Russell, an English-studies professor at the Universite de Sherbrooke. She hopes to publish the first dictionary of Quebec English. ``The phenomenon has become much more evident in recent years,'' she said, adding that part of the reason is the growing ``prestige'' of French. ``You're inclined to borrow from the language that has prestige, authority and power.'' For the Oxford usage guide, Fee and co-editor Janice McAlpine culled examples of Canadian English from 12 million words that appeared in books and 650 million words from Canadian newspapers and magazines. The examples of Quebec English come from The Gazette. While anglo Quebecers have expressions to call their own, so do all English Canadians. From hosers to loonies, sovereignists to tuques, pogey to baby bonus to wind-chill factor, Canadians use a variety of English distinct from British or American English. As for the future of Quebec English, Fee said it will survive only as long as the community does. ``What will happen in the next 20 years?'' she asked. ``All we know is that it's a phenomenon now. Those (anglophones) who haven't left Quebec are bilingual - and they're speaking Quebec English.'' Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Aug 1997 to 20 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Aug 1997 to 21 Aug 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 357 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pot likker (fwd) 2. WILLIAM BURROUGHS SPECIAL: Beat, Hipnik (2) 3. Quebec English (3) 4. Wind-chill factor (5) 5. i'm back in the saddle again... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 01:49:12 -0400 From: "Kendra Y. Hamilton" Subject: pot likker (fwd) > > > ** FOR ** IMMEDIATE ** RELEASE ** > > > > > > > > Callaloo > > > > a journal of African American > > and African Arts and Letters > > > > presents > > > > > > "POT LIKKER" > > > > a special issue on food > > and the African Diaspora > > > > > > The editors are soliciting poems, short stories, personal > > essays, scholarly articles, and even recipes dealing with any > > aspect of the culture of food. Topics could include regional > > foodways (including North America, the Caribbean, and Central > > and South America); ethnic interchanges among African, Native, > > Latino and Asian Americans; medicinal arts and poultices; African > > American cooks and their gardens; Aunt Jemima; historical > > pieces on black chefs; cassavas in cross-cultural perspective; > > consuming the Other; televisual and filmic representations; > > plantations and the law of supply and demand; and many, many > > others. > > > > The deadline for submissions is Jan. 15, 1998. Snail mail > > submissions to Kendra Hamilton, Contributing Editor, Callaloo, > > 322 Bryan Hall, Department of English, University of Virginia, > > Charlottesville, VA 22903. You may email queries--though not > > manuscripts--to kh4d[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]virginia.edu. The editors _strongly_ > > suggest that you familiarize yourself with the journal before > > submitting. Please include an SASE for return of your > > manuscript. > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:10:38 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: WILLIAM BURROUGHS SPECIAL: Beat, Hipnik Jack Kerouac's ON THE ROAD was published about 40 years ago. William Burroughs is dead. Stuart Berg Flexner's LISTENING TO AMERICA, on page 310, has "We're beat, man. Beat means beatific, it means you got the beat, it means something. I invented it," Jack Kerouac, quoted in Herbert Gold's "The Beat Mystique," Playboy magazine, February 1958. Tony Thorne's DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG has "beat" in a 5 September 1957 article by Gilbert Millstein in the New York Times, which states "the generation Kerouac himself named years ago as 'beat' and whose principal avatar he is." Robert Hendrickson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS states that John Clellon Holmes's novel GO! (1957) used "beat generation" first. Tom Dalzell's FLAPPERS 2 RAPPERS has a nice discussion of "beat," but I've misplaced the book somewhere in this apartment. The Village Voice ran a few letters about this in February 1958. This is one of the last, from 19 February 1958, pg. 4, col. 3: Which Definition of Beat? Dear Sir: As a probable Square (Washington Square? Anybody have a good etymology of square?--ed.) who is not in the swim of Village social life at any level, I am hopelessly confused about the phenomenon known as the Beat Generation. In your February 5 issue H. B. Lutz leaves the impression that Beats are identified with jazz, dope, indifferent sex, and a frequent hedonism. That he finally characterizes the Beat as a (young) Square is a puzzling conclusion, as it seems a pure logical contradiction in terms. In the same issue we find a Mr. A Rosenberg (Letters to the Editor) referring to the Beat Generation in both quotes and the past tense. As I understand this writer, the Real Beat became _passe_ "say six years ago." Does Mr. Rosenberg mean that contemporary, practicing Beats are frauds, i.e., non-beat Beats? Mike Wallace's interviews with Jack Kerouac and Philip Lamentis (New York Post, January 21 and 22) serve only to baffle further. Mr. Kerouac here describes Beats as unique types of mystics who "love everything yet are in despair over the "heavy burden of life." Mr. Lamentia, in contrast, exhibits almost a Cheerful-Cherub sort of optimism. He speaks of beatness as an off-beat form of Christianity which synchronizes belief in traditional theological figures with jazz, marijuana, and mystic ecstasy. Lamentia's claim to mysticism seems a contradiction of Lutz' contention that the Beats are hedonistically oriented. Finally, a Villager (not a Square?--ed.) who would swear by his hipness and who purports to know personally classic Beat types, classifies them as "pseudo-junkies." The Beats, my informant insists, believe in nothing, do nothing, and have neither the courage to take narcotics nor the imagination to deny taking them. Different Meanings These very few examples give evidence that the term "Beat Generation" means very different things to different people. How, then, is it possible to communicate meaningfully about this socio-cultural phenomenon? What is the Beat Generation? Where is the Beat headquarters in New York? Could a statistically significant sample of beat-generation heads be counted? Or is the beat generation a lucrative, transitory myth invented by a few clever eccentrics to titillate the imagination and loosen the purse strings of the ideological Square slummer? --I. Horowitz Jane Street The late Herb Caen of San Francisco coined "beatnik" from Beat and Sputnik in a San Francisco Chronicle column of 2 April 1958. In the Village Voice of 13 August 1958, pg. 3, cols. 2-3, there is "Off-Beat Survey: Hipniks." "Our men talked to 27 young hipniks (hipnik: a folksy variant of hipster)." Not everything catches on. "Popik" would be coined a few years later. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:03:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: Re: Quebec English "Wind-chill factor", distinctively Canadian? Eh, no! Ingrid Peritz's article on Quebec English and Canadian English, quoted by Dan Goodman, includes the paragraph (apparently based on the _Guide to Canadian English Usage_) While anglo Quebecers have expressions to call their own, so do all English Canadians. From hosers to loonies, sovereignists to tuques, pogey to baby bonus to wind-chill factor, Canadians use a variety of English distinct from British or American English. "Wind-chill factor" has been a part of my regular vocabulary for many years (Northeast US all my life, except for 7 years in Berkeley). I don't see how Dan can have missed that. At first I thought he might be from Dallas or Atlanta or some place where the number is never used, but Minneapolis?! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 09:07:35 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: Quebec English We use wind chill factor in the South, too! Usually it's something like: "The high for today will be 30 degrees, with a wind chill of 15." Sometimes the weather reporters will say: "...with a wind chill factor of 15." It can get a bit cold down here, too! ----------------------------- >From Mark Mandel: > "Wind-chill factor" has been a part of my regular vocabulary for many > years (Northeast US all my life, except for 7 years in Berkeley). I > don't > see how Dan can have missed that. At first I thought he might be from > Dallas or Atlanta or some place where the number is never used, but > Minneapolis?! > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:58:07 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: WILLIAM BURROUGHS SPECIAL: Beat, Hipnik Note that John Clellon Holmes used _beat generation_ in his novel _Go_ and in the _New York Times Magazine_ in 1952, not 1957. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:04:29 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Quebec English Perhaps it's the phrase, "wind chill factor" as opposed to "wind chill" which I don't seem able to escape. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 11:35:48 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Wind-chill factor At 10:04 AM 8/21/97 EST, you (beth simon) wrote: >Perhaps it's the phrase, "wind chill factor" as opposed to "wind chill" >which I don't seem able to escape. > OED2 quotes the Clark Univ. dissertation where w-c (not w.c.!) was coined in 1939; "w-c factor" is cited from 1949. I was interested in weather as a child and recall hearing "w-c f" on northern-US weather reports in the late 60s. OED has citations from the UK, including one from 1985 when the BBC began including w-c in weather reports. Maybe plain "w-c" is a shortening due to frequent use in such reports (though "w-c" alone is already attested in the 1939 dissertation where it was coined). So it doesn't seem particularly Canadian. Perhaps the author of the quoted article thought there were climatic reasons why it would be commonly used there and thus felt "distinctively" Canadian to her. The locution certainly may get more of a workout there than further south, or in the normally moderate UK. _A Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles_, ed. Walter Avis et al., does list "wind chill," with a first citation ("w-c factor") from 1949. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 12:05:25 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: Wind-chill factor I checked the AP Manual of Style (mine's old--from 1987) and it lists "wind chill index" no hyphen, also known as "wind chill factor" no hyphen. Does anyone have a more recent edition? Now that I think about it, I believe I've also seen "windchill" as one word in some reports. Any references on that? ----- > OED2 quotes the Clark Univ. dissertation where w-c (not w.c.!) was > coined in > 1939; "w-c factor" is cited from 1949. I was interested in weather as > a > child and recall hearing "w-c f" on northern-US weather reports in the > late > 60s. OED has citations from the UK, including one from 1985 when the > BBC > began including w-c in weather reports. Maybe plain "w-c" is a > shortening > due to frequent use in such reports (though "w-c" alone is already > attested > in the 1939 dissertation where it was coined). > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 13:48:14 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Wind-chill factor At 12:05 PM 8/21/97 -0500, you ("Emerson, Jessie J" ) wrote: >I checked the AP Manual of Style (mine's old--from 1987) and it lists >"wind chill index" no hyphen, also known as "wind chill factor" no >hyphen. Does anyone have a more recent edition? > >Now that I think about it, I believe I've also seen "windchill" as one >word in some reports. Any references on that? > OED2's entry is "wind-chill factor," but it lists citations of wc "index" too. (Cp. "heat index" [heat + humidity], which has just come into use in weather reports in the last several years, I recently read in a newspaper article.) OED2 has usage citations spelled "wind-chill" and "wind chill," but none as "windchill." No entries are later than 1985. [My "(not w.c.)" comment was a (very small) joke.] Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:32:00 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Wind-chill factor Impressionistically, I seem to recall "wind-chill index", quoted on winter weather reports in the Northeast and based on some forgotten algorithm, as predating the wind-chill factor, but I may be confusing it with its summer counterpart, the discomfort (heat x humidity) index. Not to say that one doesn't suffer some discomfort when it's 10 degrees and the wind is blowing. I wonder what the first citation of the mondegreen "windshield factor" is--we could let the Canadians claim that one, eh? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 16:09:26 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: i'm back in the saddle again... just a note of greeting to say i'm back on the list, and, yes indeedy, this is the same "m. lynne murphy" that was in south africa. god, the world doesn't need two of us (though i did go to college with a lynne m. murphy). now i have a whole new dialect of english to conquer here in texas. and i'd just got(ten) used to taking inventries and reading litracha. as for heat indexes... this is my first summer in 5 years, so i refuse to complain! lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ("one tall building surrounded by baptists") ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:21:58 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Wind-chill factor I'm perfectly willing to believe that we USers invented "wind chill" instead of those other Norther Americans. But remember, just because something is familiar doesn't mean it's "native". How many people are aware that "canoe" is a Jamaicanism? --peter patrick ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Aug 1997 to 21 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Aug 1997 to 22 Aug 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 158 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. wind chill factor (was: Quebec English) 2. Rat Line; Beat and Square, again (2) 3. pot likker (fwd) 4. DARE on Weekend Edition ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 23:26:22 -0500 From: Dan Goodman Subject: wind chill factor (was: Quebec English) > Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:03:37 -0500 > From: Mark Mandel > Subject: Re: Quebec English > > "Wind-chill factor", distinctively Canadian? Eh, no! > > Ingrid Peritz's article on Quebec English and Canadian English, quoted by > Dan Goodman, includes the paragraph (apparently based on the _Guide > to Canadian English Usage_) > > While anglo Quebecers have expressions to call their own, so do all > English Canadians. From hosers to loonies, sovereignists to tuques, > pogey to baby bonus to wind-chill factor, Canadians use a variety of > English distinct from British or American English. > > "Wind-chill factor" has been a part of my regular vocabulary for many > years (Northeast US all my life, except for 7 years in Berkeley). I don't > see how Dan can have missed that. At first I thought he might be from > Dallas or Atlanta or some place where the number is never used, but > Minneapolis?! I live in Minneapolis. It's not where I'm from, which I consider to mean place of origin. I missed that mistake in the article. But I'm rather surprised that there's only _one_ detectable mistake in a newspaper article. For that matter, there's a mystery novel titled "The Wind Chill Factor"; and if I recall correctly, it's set in Minnesota. > Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 21:21:58 -0400 > From: "Peter L. Patrick" > Subject: Re: Wind-chill factor > > I'm perfectly willing to believe that we USers invented "wind chill" > instead of those other Norther Americans. But remember, just because > something is familiar doesn't mean it's "native". How many people are > aware that "canoe" is a Jamaicanism? It is? I took it for granted that the word came from the French "canot" and probably came from a part of North America where English and French were in close contact. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 01:17:23 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Rat Line; Beat and Square, again RAT LINE "Rat line" is a term used at the Virginia Military Institute that I wasn't aware of. Rat=freshman. VMI is in the news because it's now coed. Hm, if only we had someone on this list from VMI, I can't imagine who... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- BEAT and SQUARE The dating error cited by Fred Shapiro is in Hendrickson's original; it was my error for not pointing out Hendrickson's error. Hendrickson makes lots of errors and doesn't do original research--I probably shouldn't have quoted him at all. I finally found Tom Dalzell's FLAPPERS 2 RAPPERS in my apartment. "Beat" is on the cover and is well-chronicled on pages 94-96. "Square" is described by Dalzell on pages 100-103. On page 102, he writes that "_Square_ was a key word in the Beat movement, which drew the lines between us and them to a far starker degree than past youth subcultures had." The earliest citation is Cab Calloway's 1938 HEPSTER'S DICTIONARY; a square is an unhip person. Still, where's square? Did it originally refer to Washington Square or Times Square? If the term originated in Harlem, "square" for "Times Square" (that unhip downtown spot) would make some sense. In the "tudor-tourist words" I copied a week ago from the New York Post's travel section, "square meal" was one of the British terms. This may be disputed--THE BARNHART DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY has "The meaning of full, solid, substantial (said of meals) is first found about 1850, in American English." The traditional tour guide etymology caveats apply. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- Welcome back to the USA, Lynne! (Provided, of course, that Texas is still considered part of the Union.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:20:11 -0400 From: "Dr. Dubem Okafor" Subject: Re: pot likker (fwd) Hi: Kindly announce to members/recipients the publication of my second book of poems, GARLANDS OF ANGUISH (1997), which is being distributed by DIASPORA PUBLICATIONS, BOX 70, KUTZTOWN, PA 19530, and retails for $7.= (postage paid!). It will be found useful in a variety of courses, including Postcolonial Literatures, Black Literatures, African Literatures, African-American literature, Multicultural Literature, etc. Thanks. Dubem Okafor, Ph.D. Kutztown University of Pennsylvania. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 10:19:45 -0400 From: Alan Baragona Subject: Re: Rat Line; Beat and Square, again Barry A. Popik wrote: > > RAT LINE > > "Rat line" is a term used at the Virginia Military Institute that I > wasn't aware of. Rat=freshman. VMI is in the news because it's now coed. > Hm, if only we had someone on this list from VMI, I can't imagine who... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Okay, I'll bite. What do you want to know? Alan B. Prof. of English at, yes, VMInfamous. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 16:27:10 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: DARE on Weekend Edition On Sunday morning there will be a feature story on DARE, with emphasis on the audiotape collection, on NPR's Weekend Edition. Don't know what part of the program it will be on, unfortunately. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Aug 1997 to 22 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Aug 1997 to 23 Aug 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 217 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BEAT SEX 2. Pyrin vs. Marenostrin (new words duel!) 3. Office stuff (fwd) 4. Hendrickson's MOUNTAIN RANGE book review ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:23:55 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: BEAT SEX Barry A. Popik quotes somebody as follows: >H. B. Lutz leaves the impression >that Beats are >identified with jazz, dope, >indifferent sex, >and a frequent hedonism. What does "indifferent sex" mean? Can someone be hedonistic and "indifferent" to "sex"? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 00:31:27 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Pyrin vs. Marenostrin (new words duel!) What's wrong with this picture? Here's the idiot test of the century, courtesy of the New York Times, 22 August 1997, pg. A 19, cols. 3-6: Gene of Mideast Ancestor May Link 4 Disparate Peoples By NICHOLAS WADE Several thousand years ago, somewhere in the Middle East, there lived a person who bequeathed a particular gene to many present-day descendants. But those millions of now distant relatives could not convincingly be called one happy family. They include Jews, Arabs, Turks and Armenians. The gene, a variant of a gene that controls fever, has come to light because it causes an unusual disease called familial Mediterranean fever in people who inherit a copy from both parents. The gene's presence among a surprising group of populations hints at the rich archeology that lies buried in the human genome, once geneticists and historians have learned how to interpret it. Two rival teams of scientists in France and the United States have been racing to isolate the gene for a year. The race finished today, with the American team announcing its finding in the journal Cell, the French team in Nature Genetics. The American team has named the gene pyrin, from the Greek word for fire, after its role in fever; the French team calls it marenostrin after the Latin "Our Sea," a Roman phrase for the Mediterranean. The race could be considered a dead heat, although the American team has recovered the whole gene, the French team just a major portion. (...) Pyrin? Marenostrin? Again I ask--what's wrong with this picture? Five seconds. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Time's up. Think about it. You're naming an ancestor for Jews, Arabs, Turks, and Armenians. The name (and the language) you choose should be significant to all of these groups. So you choose a word that comes from-- Greek? Latin? DID ACTUAL THINKING GO INTO THIS? Think about it! You go to Turkey and you declare, "Hi, guys! We found the gene that's an ancestor for all of the Turks! We're so happy, WE'RE USING A GREEK NAME!!" Or you go to Israel and you say, "Shalom! We found the gene that could go back to Abraham! We're so happy, WE'RE USING A LATIN NAME!!" Granted, a good deal of English and French use both Latin and Greek. But did anyone--ANYONE--consider that Latin and Greek MIGHT be considered inappropriate for Jews, Arabs, Turks and Armenians? Didn't the writer of the article ask anybody this question? I guess not. Wouldn't you want to use proto-Hebrew? A great many Ph.D.'s worked a year, and I'm the only person to think of this???? COULD SOMEONE PLEASE NOMINATE THIS FOR THE ONOMASTIC HALL OF FAME? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Aug 1997 23:58:54 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Office stuff (fwd) I've seen several of these before, but for those of you who may not have, some are really good. I think I particularly like the Ohnosecond. Rima >>> > OFFICE LINGO IN THE AGE OF THE INTERNET >>> > >>> > Blamestorming - sitting around in a group discussing why a >>> deadline >>> > was missed or a project failed and who was responsible >>> > >>> > Body Nazis - hard-core exercise and weight-lifting fanatics who >>> look >>> > down on anyone who doesn't work out obsessively >>> > >>> > Chainsaw consultant - an outside expert brought in to reduce >>> the >>> > employee headcount, leaving the top brass with clean hands >>> > >>> > Cube farm - an office filled with cubicles >>> > >>> > Ego surfing - scanning the Net, databases, print media, and so >>> on, >>> > looking for references to one's own name >>> > >>> > Elvis year - the peak year of something's popularity -- Barney >>> the >>> > dinosaur's Elvis year was 1993. >>> > >>> > 404 - someone who is clueless, from the World Wide Web error >>> message >>> > "404 Not Found", meaning the requested document couldn't be >>> located >>> > -- Don't bother asking him, he's 404. >>> > >>> > Idea hamsters - people who always seem to have their idea >>> generators >>> > running >>> > >>> > Mouse potato - the on-line generation's answer to the couch >>> potato >>> > >>> > Ohnosecond - that minuscule fraction of time in which you >>> realize >>> > you've just made a big mistake >>> > >>> > Prairie dogging - something loud happens in a cube farm, and >>> > people's heads pop up over the walls to see what's going on >>> > >>> > SITCOM - stands for Single Income, Two Children, Oppressive >>> Mortgage >>> > >>> > Stress puppy - a person who thrives on being stressed-out and >>> whiny >>> > >>> > Tourists - those who take training classes just to take a >>> vacation >>> > from their jobs -- "We had three serious students in the class; >>> the >>> > rest were tourists." >>> > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 21:36:45 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Hendrickson's MOUNTAIN RANGE book review BOOK REVIEW: MOUNTAIN RANGE: A DICTIONARY OF EXPRESSIONS FROM APPALACHIA TO THE OZARKS by Robert Hendrickson 147 pages, $14.95 1997, Facts on File Robert Hendrickson is the author of THE FACTS ON FILE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS (which I quoted the other day). Other books in this series are: WHISTLIN' DIXIE: A DICTIONARY OF SOUTHERN EXPRESSIONS HAPPY TRAILS: A DICTIONARY OF WESTERN EXPRESSIONS YANKEE TALK: A DICTIONARY OF NEW ENGLAND EXPRESSIONS and New York expressions (forthcoming). I have all of these books. (The phrase "whistlin' dixie" was discussed last year.) That does not necessarily mean that they're bad or good. MOUNTAIN RANGE is the same formula and quality as the previous books. It's an interesting collection of words; there are plenty of errors and omissions, and the work is not intended to be scholarly. It should be accepted only at its own "general interest" level. Like the previous books I've reviewed recently, MOUNTAIN RANGE has no bibliography. Ah, who needs it! It appears that Hendrickson surveyed a very limited number of books of this type. Also like BUZZWORDS: L.A. FRESHSPEAK, this book has no map, and the words are not identified (noun used in South Carolina, verb used in eastern Kentucky). The lack of a map hurt BUZZWORDS, but this hurts MOUNTAIN RANGE even more. Say, what mountains are we talking about? The Ozarks in Missouri? The Smokey Mountains in Tennessee? Arkansas? Kentucky? Pennsylvania? What mountains are these words coming from? Some lists would have been nice, such as a list of animal words, food words, et al. by topic. Instead, it's a straight dictionary of words from wherever. The cover shows a nice drawing of "hog wild," but there are no other illustrations. A short list of sources is given in the introduction, where Hendrickson states that DARE "promises when completed to be one of the greatest dictionaries ever compiled." Check out the state words Hendrickson gives: there's Arkansas (Arkansas chicken, Arkansas toothpick, Arkansas travels, but no Arkansas traveler), Kentucky (Kentucky rifle, Kentucky yell, but no Kentucky fried chicken), and Missouri, but no Tennessee at all (Tennessee tea, Tennessee tuxedo, Tennessee waltz, the pronunciation of Tennessee). Then you realize that DARE HAS ONLY REACHED "O." "You-all" is given as "often pronounced _y'all_," so why isn't there a brief entry there as well? The recent scholarship on this word is completely missed. "Melungeon" (a frequent topic on this list) is here, but there's no explanation of the origin of the term, and other similar terms that were discussed here are left out. "Puke" (an old name for a Missourian) is "Perhaps a corruption of the earlier name _Pike_ for Missouri natives, a name given to them in California because so many Missourians who came there during the gold rush were from Pike County, Missouri." Actually, a simple check would should that "puke" predates this gold rush by at least a decade. "Puke" originated in Illinois. Under "Appalachia," Hendrickson adds "It is interesting to note that Washington Irving once suggested (in the _Knickerbocker Magazine_, August 1839) that the phrase _United States of Appalachia_ be substituted for the _United States of America_." I have tons of stuff about this in my "America Papers." It was "Allegania" (I may has misspelled that; I'm too lazy to check) that Irving advocated, not "Appalachia." Words are missing. There's no "sticks." No "hicks." No "appleknockers." And let's REALLY check. No "fuck." No "shit." Not even a "she-it." Obviously, mountain folk have the cleanest vocabulary around! Who woulda thunk it! Again, I have many Hendrickson books, and they're all moderately informative. But the guy makes tons of mistakes, and his books shouldn't enter any scholarly discussions. New York is next. I'll buy that, too. Probably none of my stuff will be in it, and I'll probably gag... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Aug 1997 to 23 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Aug 1997 to 24 Aug 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 91 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Shocked. SHOCKED! 2. Money Talks (movie title) 3. BEAT SEX ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 09:46:49 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Shocked. SHOCKED! "I'm shocked--SHOCKED--that there's gambling here." --CASABLANCA I'm shocked--SHOCKED--that the New York Times Magazine ran another dull "On Language" column. Heck, I can write better in my spare time, and without any assistants. Guest columnist Jack Rosenthal (Safire is on vacation) states that CASABLANCA's "shocked-SHOCKED!" cliche dates from the early '90s. As does Safire, he simply uses Nexis, then puts the column to bed. Stewart Klein of Channel Five's Ten O'Clock News (now Fox News) reviews movies for that highly rated program in New York City. In one of his movie reviews in the 1980s, he used and explained "shocked-SHOCKED!" Anchor John Roland loved it and repeated Stewie's "shocked-SHOCKED!" It clearly predates the first Nexis use, but Rosenthal never asked me. I'm shocked. SHOCKED! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:20:25 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Money Talks (movie title) MONEY TALKS is the title of a new movie starring Charlie Sheen and Chris Tucker. The full phrase is often "Money talks--bullshit walks." Does anyone have a "money talks"? I couldn't find it in Bartlett, nor in American Heritage. It was in, ah, Robert Hendrickson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS: MONEY TALKS. Now a folk saying rather than slang, _money talks_ means that wealth is power, or money buys anything. Though it is probably older, no one has been able to trace the phrase back before 1910. J. D. Salinger used it in _Catcher in the Rye_ (1950): "In New York, boy, money really talks--I'm not kidding." I'm in New York and-- GEORGE WASHINGTON: Let us guess--you have an earlier citation? It's my quarter! I've stopped doing characters! Shut up! ABRAHAM LINCOLN: I'd quarter that fellow! GEORGE WASHINGTON: He's not making cents! SHUT UP! ALL OF MY MONEY! SHUT UP!!!! METROCARD GOLD: Can I say something? A METROCARD GOLD CANNOT, I REPEAT, CANNOT TALK!! METROCARD GOLD: Sorry. VISA GOLD: What about me? CREDIT CARDS CAN'T TALK EITHER! I'M GOING NUTS! AMERICAN EXPRESS GOLD CARD: Would you get to that earlier citation already? We're all overdrawn. This is from Puck, 31 March 1886, pg. 74, col. 3: THE GAMBLERS say "money talks." And so it does. As a conversationalist, money ranks very high. MASTERCARD: Thank you. MARINE MIDLAND DEBIT CARD: I knew he'd destroy Hendrickson. AT&T CALLING CARD: He sure took long enough. KINKO'S COPY CARD: Hey, where'd he go? FOOD EMPORIUM BONUS SAVINGS CLUB CARD: He's in the kitchen. It looks like he's going for the full half-gallon of "Death by Chocolate." BOBST LIBRARY PHOTOCOPY/ERC/ MICROFORM REUSABLE CARD: Poor guy. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 22:28:01 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: BEAT SEX Ron Butters wonders, >Barry A. Popik quotes somebody as follows: > >>H. B. Lutz leaves the impression >>that Beats are >>identified with jazz, dope, >>indifferent sex, >>and a frequent hedonism. > >What does "indifferent sex" mean? Can someone be hedonistic and >"indifferent" to "sex"? No doubt a typo here. What was intended was obviously "in-different sex". --Larry :) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Aug 1997 to 24 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1997 to 25 Aug 1997 There are 15 messages totalling 397 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pyrin vs. Marenostrin (new words duel!) (2) 2. Quebec English 3. Money Talks (movie title) (2) 4. plea for advice (2) 5. Wash. Post article on DARE (2) 6. squires (3) 7. Esquire 8. "Gay Head" in Scholastic Magazine 9. Web Site? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 00:39:20 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Pyrin vs. Marenostrin (new words duel!) B. Popik writes: > But did anyone--ANYONE--consider >that Latin and Greek MIGHT be considered >inappropriate for Jews, Arabs, Turks >and Armenians? Well, but, scientific words the world over are coined from Latin and Greek roots--this is sort of the international language of science, right? Anyway, it seems to me that Latin (or even ancient Greek) is/are far more neutral than, say, selecting a Turkish word to describe the ancestors of an Armenian, or selecting a Hebrew word to describe the ancestors of an Arab (or vice versa). Since Adam and Eve spoke Dutch, obviously a Dutch word would be best. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 02:43:39 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: Quebec English On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:03:37 -0500 Mark Mandel said: > >"Wind-chill factor" has been a part of my regular vocabulary for many >years (Northeast US all my life, except for 7 years in Berkeley). I don't >see how Dan can have missed that. At first I thought he might be from >Dallas or Atlanta or some place where the number is never used, but >Minneapolis?! Count Atlanta out, too...the wind-chill factor is alive and thriving there, as well. JCC ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:39:31 -0400 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) Barry Popik wrote: > MONEY TALKS is the title of a new movie starring Charlie Sheen and Chris >Tucker. The full phrase is often "Money talks--bullshit walks." That money talks I'll not deny I heard it once -- It said "Good-bye" Richard Armour ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:33:47 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) Isn't it money talks, and nobody walks ? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:05:26 -0400 From: GEORGE KAUFER Subject: Re: plea for advice Would someone please send me the new Internet url for ADS .I clumsily deleted it before I had copied it ! Many thanks gkaufer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com gkaufer1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:06:44 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: plea for advice > Would someone please send me the new Internet url for ADS .I clumsily > deleted it before I had copied it ! Many thanks http://www.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:43:30 -0700 From: "A. Maberry" Subject: Re: Pyrin vs. Marenostrin (new words duel!) On Sat, 23 Aug 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > What's wrong with this picture? Here's the idiot test of the century, > courtesy of the New York Times, 22 August 1997, pg. A 19, cols. 3-6: > > Gene of Mideast Ancestor May Link 4 Disparate Peoples > By NICHOLAS WADE > > Several thousand years ago, somewhere in the Middle East, there lived a > person who bequeathed a particular gene to many present-day descendants. But > those millions of now distant relatives could not convincingly be called one > happy family. They include Jews, Arabs, Turks and Armenians. what struck me is not so much the fact that a greek or latin name for the gene was proposed, but that the article implies that the Jews, Arabs, Turks and Armenians were descended from a common ancestor, which seems linguistically and historically impossible, IMHO. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 14:20:27 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Wash. Post article on DARE Today's Washington Post has an article about DARE, with quotes from Cassidy, Hall, and Leonard Zwilling. It focuses mostly on the financial problems they're having and the resulting difficulties. Those interested can find it on line at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-08/25/051l-082597-idx.html Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:41:32 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Wash. Post article on DARE At 02:20 PM 8/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Today's Washington Post has an article about DARE, with >quotes from Cassidy, Hall, and Leonard Zwilling. It >focuses mostly on the financial problems they're having >and the resulting difficulties. > >Those interested can find it on line at: >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1997-08/25/051l-082597-idx.html > >Jesse Sheidlower > > For those who haven't seen it, the impression left by the article is that DARE could be terminated without going past O, that the next couple of years are crucial, that new large-scale financial backing is necessary. Is it that bad? (I ask sincerely, not skeptically.) Lots of people on this list are probabably aware of the difficulties and delays in getting large-scale dictionaries completed. The German _Thesaurus Linguae Latinae_ has been coming out in facsicles for about a century and is still around R or S (I'm writing this from memory). A major Old Irish dictionary begun in the 40s or 50s is still not done. Etc. etc. Maybe DARE needs to do what NED/OED did in the 1890s when it was having big problems (see Murray's granddaugther's bio of him, _Caught in the Web of Words_): namely, somehow identify itself with the country and the culture, thus generating a sense among the educated public that the thing should and must somehow be completed, and not to do so would be a collective shame. That tends to push people to try to find ways of ensuring that the funds become available. Of course, the option of dedicating DARE to Queen Victoria is not too viable in 1997 (which is what was done exactly a century ago) -- but publicity might scare up, or embarrass up, enough money to finish. Certainly OED lost Oxford Univ Press tons of money during the fascicles stage. But once a "dictionary on historical principles" with citations has been done properly, it is much less of an uphill pull (though still laborious of course) to *update* it, especially when one begins to talk of electronic texts (CD-ROM's, or more likely DVD's in another several years). The history of OED in the later 20C is a case in point. _Caught_, p. 289: "The recognition of the Dictionary as a national asset was sealed when James Murray suggested that the whole work should be dedicated to Queen Victoria. In August 1897 the Queen accepted, and the third Volume containing Murray's *D* and Bradley's *E* included a fly leaf with the dedication by the University of Oxford. For the first time the University itself was formally pledged to the production and any drawing back now was unthinkable." (Note that it took from the 1879 contract till 1897 to get done with A-E.) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 15:56:00 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: squires does anybody actually call anybody else 'squire'? all my dictionaries give the sense of a judge/lawyer/justice of the peace, but don't list it as being archaic, but i've never heard it used except jokingly. (and do lawyers seriously put 'esquire' after their names--is this a regional thing?) have enjoyed all the press on DARE. if the S volume does get funding, then i won't have to ask you such questions... lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:41:00 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Re: squires On Mon, 25 Aug 1997, Lynne Murphy wrote: > (and do lawyers seriously put 'esquire' after their names--is this a > regional thing?) Yes. Bethany K. Dumas, Esq. aka Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 311/1117 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA [Sept. - Dec. '97, Professorial Lecturer, Dep't of Linguistics, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. 20057 - (202) 687-6029 after 9/8.] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 19:29:31 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Esquire At 03:56 PM 8/25/97 +0000, you (M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]baylor.edu) wrote: >does anybody actually call anybody else 'squire'? all my dictionaries >give the sense of a judge/lawyer/justice of the peace, but don't list >it as being archaic, but i've never heard it used except jokingly. >(and do lawyers seriously put 'esquire' after their names--is this a >regional thing?) > Esquire or Esq. is still used by some law firms, if not by others, in their official names (e.g., "X and Y, Esqs."), correspondence, and documents filed with a court or with the county clerk's office. I checked a file of things relating to some family matters from the past year or so, all from the New York City metropolitan area, and some but by no means all lawyers and firms still use the term. Yes, "Esq." is often used to make fun of lawyers, who are not always looked on fondly. The use of Esq(uire) as an honorific outside of strictly aristocratic circles goes back to the 16C (as discussed some by OED1 and OED2), but it may well sound affected in the anti-formal US of the late 20C. I don't know that it is especially regional, or even American as opposed to British. It originally meant shield-bearer, and was thus applied to a class of minor aristocrat below a knight (opinions about proper usage differed widely not only over time, but even in the same period). Evetually, it got extended as an honorific to people who were not really aristocrats but were thought to deserve some honorable title (something more than "Mister/Master"). But there are actual lawyers on this list -- I know you're out there.... Anything to say on this? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:08:37 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves Subject: squires Hi Lynne, In England squire is still a term of address that working-class market traders use to flatter potential customers. Also in England, it is customary to write "Esq." after any man's name on business mail -- stuff that your bank sends you, e.g., and you don't have to be a lawyer to earn= the title! t I'm not familiar with the US usages, except the joking ones you refer to -- though others responding have attested these. All the best, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:18:17 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: "Gay Head" in Scholastic Magazine I'm in the last stages of selling my parent's house, and all of my college textbooks and other old books are being tossed or donated. I came across a book in my sister's room that was, well, queer: DEAR GAY HEAD (Questions from the Mail Box answered by GAY HEAD), Scholastic Book Services, NY, 1958. Cover illustration--a mailbox with letters addressed "GAY HEAD, N. Y. C." "Gay Head" gave teen dating advice in the Scholastic Magazines (which were then very popular). The intro reads: "Letters--We Get Letters!" Yes, we get bags and bags of letters, asking questions about all the things that bother young people today. And we read them all and ponder them all and answer as many as possible in "Boy dates Girl" and similar departments in the various _Scholastic Magazines_. Some of the questions included in this book concern the same problem areas--like dating, prom manners, and family disagreements--as those covered in the "Boy dates Girl" _Question and Answer Book_. Yet they're not the same questions. (...) Happy endings! Gay Head "Gay Head" is not in the Random House Historical Dictionary of Slang, not even under "gay." "Gay Head" giving "Boy dates Girl" advice--probably just a humorous coincidence. But how far do the "Gay Head" Scholastic Magazine columns go back? By the way, there is a "Gay Head" town in Martha's Vineyard. Wonder if President Clinton saw it? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:00:19 +0900 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Web Site? Does anybody know what has happened to the ADS web pages? I got a note of inquiry about them from somebody who had an ADS link from his pages (but who still had the link to the old ADS site at Mississippi State, where I had created a link to the new site -- that's why he was writing me about their disappearance). He asked me where the site now is since it seems to have vanished from Brigham Young. I just double-checked and also got a "this URL doesn't exist" response. In order for me to answer the person's question and in case I get any more such inquiries, could one of you let me know what's going on with the web pages -- like where they are? Since I'm still on nomail for ADS-L, I would appreciate your sending me direct mail if you know the answer to the question. Thanks! Japan is wonderful, btw. Except for missing my dog, microwave popcorn, and convenient free net access, I'm in heaven. -- Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gol.com) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1997 to 25 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Aug 1997 to 26 Aug 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Gay Head" in Scholastic Magazine 2. Money Talks (movie title) (2) 3. Gay Head, Martha's Vineyard 4. Wash. Post article on DARE 5. squires ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 09:00:38 +0000 From: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: "Gay Head" in Scholastic Magazine Barry A. Popik wrote: > > I'm in the last stages of selling my parent's house, and all of my > college textbooks and other old books are being tossed or donated. I came > across a book in my sister's room that was, well, queer: > > DEAR GAY HEAD (Questions from the Mail Box answered by GAY HEAD), Scholastic > Book Services, NY, 1958. Cover illustration--a mailbox with letters > addressed "GAY HEAD, N. Y. C." > > "Gay Head" gave teen dating advice in the Scholastic Magazines (which > were then very popular). The intro reads: > > "Letters--We Get Letters!" > Yes, we get bags and bags of letters, asking questions about all the > things that bother young people today. The "Letters--We Get Letters!" is an allusion to the Perry Como tv show which was on in the mid-to-late '50s. ________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: TTh 9-10 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 23:16:16 +0900 From: Akihisa Shibuya Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) At 10:20 PM 97.8.24 -0400, Barry A. Popik wrote: > MONEY TALKS is the title of a new movie starring Charlie Sheen and Chris >Tucker. The full phrase is often "Money talks--bullshit walks." > Does anyone have a "money talks"? I couldn't find it in Bartlett, nor in >American Heritage. It was in, ah, Robert Hendrickson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD >AND PHRASE ORIGINS: > >MONEY TALKS. Now a folk saying rather than slang, _money talks_ means that >wealth is power, or money buys anything. Though it is probably older, no one >has been able to trace the phrase back before 1910. J. D. Salinger used it >in _Catcher in the Rye_ (1950): "In New York, boy, money really talks--I'm >not kidding." The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs (1992) has "Money talks." with the first citation in 1666. Akihisa Shibuya Kawasaki, Japan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:26:18 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Gay Head, Martha's Vineyard William Labov talks about the Gay Head Indians in his classic Martha's Vineyard study (c. 1956). I don't know which came first, the Gay Head Indians or the Gay Head place-name. Does anybody know? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 13:25:52 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: Wash. Post article on DARE Yesterday's article about DARE in the _Washington Post_ was a greatly shortened and very badly cut version of the one that appeared in January in the _Chicago Tribune_. While the _Tribune_ version also focused on our desperate need for funds, it gave a good overall picture of the project, the published volumes, and the importance of doing the job right. That article (and an earlier one by Horowitz) tried to do much of what Greg Downing suggests we do, namely "identify [ourself] with the country and the culture, thus generating a sense among the educated public that the thing should and must somehow be completed, and not to do so would be a collective shame." The _Washington Post_ version ignored the discussion of the intrinsic interest and worth of the project. (I'd be happy to send a copy of the _Chicago Trib_ piece to anyone who would like it.) Greg asks, "Is it [=DARE's financial situation] that bad?" In a word, YES. As of July 1, we had to cut 3 1/2 positions in order to keep the rest of the staff on the payroll through June of 1998. That leaves us with a staff of 13 people (editors, keyboarder, proofreaders, office manager), for a total of 9.75 F[ull] T[ime] E[quivqlent] paid positions (Fred Cassidy has not taken a salary from the project for a couple of decades). The most recent issue of _OED News_ provides an interesting comparison: "Today the _OED_ has a team of 42 editors working on different aspects of the text, as well as some 50 research assistants, keyboarders, proofreaders, etc., and a further 200 or so specialist consultants from whom advice may be obtained about any aspect of the language." _OED News_ also says that the timescale for their latest revision has been extended from 2005 to 2010, and their budget has been increased from 20 million pounds to 34 million pounds. By contrast, DARE's staff cuts mean that our annual expenditures have been reduced from $600,000 to $450,000. (Our budget has been pared to salaries, fringes, and essential supplies; there is no money for conferences, travel, computer training, or any amenities.) Since a good part of our support comes from NEH, and the UW's indirect cost rate for all federal agencies is 44%, the effect is that almost 31% of all federal dollars must go to the University. So we have to raise significantly more than $450,000 annually in order to pay out that amount. The result is that too much of my time is spent writing to foundations, corporations, and individuals asking for financial support. We've had a number of $10,000 to $20,000 grants in the last six months, and they are greatly appreciated (they extend our life through about December of 1998). But they don't solve the problem and they don't allow me to do my "real" work. And the more staff we have to cut, the longer it will take to finish each volume. Without a Queen Victoria to whom to dedicate DARE, we continue to publicize the project as we can (thwarted by bad newspaper editing along the way), appeal to anyone who might have a remote interest in helping us survive, and plug on as well as possible. I realize that our repeated cries for assistance may make it seem as if we are crying wolf. The truth is that every reprieve has been a temporary one and our need for support is genuine. If some of you have ideas of other ways to attract donors, I'd be delighted to hear about them. The sooner we can find adequate support, the sooner we'll be able to get the job done. Thanks for listening. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 11:33:14 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: squires Esquire, or just Esq., is seen on (just some, not all) envelopes sent to both male and female lawyers in this part of the country; ditto inside addresses. I doubt that this is a regionalism. But no one would think of calling someone "Squire Popik" or "Squire Murphy." And, as probably everywhere, there's some klutz attorney in Lake Oswego (Oregon) whose stationery proudly proclaims "(name deleted), A.B.D." Maybe this note is the tickler I need to report him to the governing board of the state bar... But maybe he intends that to stand for A Big Dunderhead. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 20:39:16 -0700 From: Laura Doll Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) On Mon, 25 Aug 1997 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: > Isn't it money talks, and nobody walks? > > beth simon I have NEVER heard it referred to this way, and I don't think it would be "nobody walks", as it really begs for a two syllable word to continue with the flow of the phrase. --Laura Doll ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Aug 1997 to 26 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Aug 1997 to 27 Aug 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 215 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Money Talks (movie title) (2) 2. Gay Head, Money Talks 3. SCRATCH THAT LAST MESSAGE 4. squires (2) 5. Rat=Freshman; Football Terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:57:00 +0800 From: Russ McClay Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) Laura Doll wrote: > I have NEVER heard it referred to this way, and I don't think it would be > "nobody walks", as it really begs for a two syllable word to continue with > the flow of the phrase. Money talks, bullshit walks. So. California/1970s fwiw, Russ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:16:47 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Gay Head, Money Talks ALEXANDER HAMILTON: That's the title? Gay Head Money Talks? POPIK: Yeah. HAMILTON: I'm not gay! I was shot by Aaron Burr! POPIK: Good grief! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GAY HEAD I went through some of (Senior) Scholastic Magazine today, and while the kid stuff can drive you nuts, there are some slang items to be found. "Gay Head" appeared as early as the 1930s. I didn't have time to trace the first column of "Boy dates Girl." A traditional explanation is that "gay" comes from "gaycat." The problem I have is that "gaycat" was around since the 1890s, and the "gaycat" tramp of the hobo world was old news by 1941. Random House HDAS has a clear 1941 "gay"="homosexual." However, around this time, Gay Head's "Boy dates Girl" was extremely popular. If we can somewhere find a humorous citation of a Gay Head parody "Boy dates Boy," our life would be easier. A 1937 full-page Scholastic ad for the "Boy Dates Girl" book called Gay Head "your own Emily Post." Is she gay, too? The plot thickens.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MONEY TALKS "Money talks" in 1666? I believe the first OED citation is 1903, by O. Henry. The first title I found on Worldcat is D. W. McClung's _MONEY TALKS: Some of the things it says when it speaks_ (1894)--somewhat after my 1886 cite. A 1902 song by J. Fred Helf is "If money talks, it ain't on speaking terms with me." Many other titles followed. "Money talks" is also in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, but I don't know if it appeared in the first edition. HAMILTON: Just asking, but how come your Belgian Frank with Albert II doesn't say anything? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 20:46:26 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell Subject: Re: Money Talks (movie title) "Money talks, nobody walks" was the advertising slogan of Thom McCann shoes in Philadelphia in the early and mid 1960's. It was a constant refrain on radio station WIBG, a part of the hip/jive mantra that the station's dj's projected. Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:01:13 PDT From: barbara harris Subject: Re: SCRATCH THAT LAST MESSAGE Presumably the "traditional" pronunciation /baed/ is not all that old; the on the end would indicate a preceding long vowel, something like [a:]. The current /beyd/ pronunciation must be a sort of spelling pronunciation resulting from the school rule that a final "makes a letter say its name." (!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 11:20:09 PDT From: barbara harris Subject: Re: squires I remember that when I was a small child just starting to write letters (more years ago than I care to remember or admit to!), my (English) father told me that any male under the age of twelve should be addressed on an envelope as "Master," young men simply by their names (unless they had a rank) and pro- fessionals (if not "Dr.") by "Esq." following their names. Nowadays, I might use "Esq." for my lawyer, who would appreciate and probably be amused by it, and I might send a birthday card to "Master Xly Yson" about to turn four, but that's it. By the way, BCTV has a sports announcer called Squire Barnes, apparently his real name! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 14:22:00 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: squires barbara harris wrote: my (English) father told me > that any male under the age of twelve should be addressed on an envelope as > "Master," i learned this as well, but probably from my grandparents. > that's it. By the way, BCTV has a sports announcer called Squire Barnes, > apparently his real name! south africa is great for such names. there's a soccer star named doctor khumalo, various people named 'prince' 'princess' 'chief, and i've even heard of a 'professor' (but never a 'president'). i had a student whose name was "wonderboy doctor xxxx" (can't remember the last name--it didn't measure up to the first two). at the last graduation ceremony i attended there, he was graduated "with distinction". i was trying to figure out how he did that when he never came to class or handed in assignments. i can only figure that it was his name. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 23:17:02 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Rat=Freshman; Football Terms RAT=FRESHMAN Perhaps VMI didn't start this. This is from Scholastic Magazine, Oct. 26-31, 1942, pg. 32, col. 2: If Richmond beats William and Mary, freshmen may abandon their "rat caps" for the rest of the year. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- FOOTBALL TERMS A new football season is upon us. There is no good football dictionary available; if I have time to go to the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio, perhaps I'll do it. Christine Ammer's SOUTHPAWS & SUNDAY PUNCHES, AND OTHER SPORTING EXPRESSIONS leaves a lot to be desired. The following list is interesting, especially for "team of destiny" and "coffin corner kick." It's from the Scholastic Magazine, October 19-24, 1942, pg. 35, cols. 1-3, Sports, "Idiom's Delight" by Herman L. Masin: (...) Here are a few of the more famous catch phrases and how they originated: _A Punt, a Pass, and a Prayer_. A minneapolis sportswriter coined this slogan many years ago after watching Michigan beat a much stronger Minnesota eleven by the clever use of kicks and passes. Nowadays the phrase is used to describe a team that plays for the breaks. _The Galloping Ghost_. Red Grange, of Illinois, the trickiest open field runner of all time, was thus dubbed after the 1924 Michigan game. He handled the ball only five times and scored five touchdowns on runs of 95, 67, 45, and 15 yards! _The Four Horsemen_. Grantland Rice, the famous sportswriter, is responsible for this term. He used it in a news story describing Notre Dame's 1924 backfield of Harry Stuhldreher, Jim Crowley, Elmer Layden, and Don Miller. This backfield was smoother than an actress' hair-do. _A Team That Won't Be Beat Can't Be Beat_. Johnny Poe coined this famous phrase in a locker room pep talk while coaching Princeton in 1896. Twenty years later Poe was killed in France while fighting with the British Army in World War I. _Coffin Corner Kick_. This term was first applied to the slanting punts of the University of Pennsylvania's George Brooke which rolled out of bounds close to the angle formed by the sideline and the goal-line. The phrase later was revived by LeRoy N. Wills, a lawyer whose hobby was teaching boys to control their kicks and to punt diagonally for the deep corner. (When it was rumored that Jimmy Hoffa was buried mob-style at Giants Stadium in New Jersey, some headlines mentioned that he was in the "coffin corner"--ed.) _The Team of Destiny_. Princeton's resourceful 1922 team originally earned this title. It made its own luck and forced the breaks in beating many stronger foes. (Many teams have claimed that "destiny" is on their side. I think Joe Namath's 1969 Jets were "destiny's darlings"--ed.) _Win One for the Old Gipper_. If you saw the movie, "Knute Rockne--All American," two years ago, you know the origin of this phrase. When George Gipp, Notre Dame's greatest halfback, lay dying from pneumonia at the close of the 1920 season, he called Coach Rockne to his bedside and said: "If a Notre Dame team is ever behind at the half of a critical game and you want to rouse them, get the gang together in the locker room and tell 'em to win one for the old Gipper. I'll be with them in spirit." (For a better version, see the movie AIRPLANE! and "Win one for the old zipper!"--ed.) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Aug 1997 to 27 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Aug 1997 to 28 Aug 1997 There are 17 messages totalling 463 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. fall and autumn (2) 2. Rat=Freshman; Football Terms (3) 3. autumn (3) 4. three-track road 5. RE>three-track road (3) 6. Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang (3) 7. RE>three-track road; Damon Runyon 8. Damon Runyon ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:35:11 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: fall and autumn I have some questions about the use of "autumn" and "fall" in the US and UK. OED says for "fall": In N. Amer. the ordinary name for autumn; in England now rare in literary use, though found in some dialects; spring and fall, the fall of the year, are, however, in fairly common use. OED says for "autumn": Popularly, it comprises, in Great Britain, August, September, and October (J.); in North America, September, October, and November (Webster) For "fall", does this mean that "fall" is rare EVEN in literary use in the UK, and thus not used in conversational speech? For "autumn", I agree with what they say it being from Sept to Dec in North America. Does it indeed start in August in UK usage? Any insights, opinions? ============================================== Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:24:52 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Re: fall and autumn On Thu, 28 Aug 1997, Daniel Long wrote: }I have some questions about the use of "autumn" and "fall" in the US and }UK. }[...OED quotes...] } }For "fall", does this mean that "fall" is rare EVEN in literary use in }the UK, and thus not used in conversational speech? "Fall" is never used on this side of the water. It's entirely understood, especailly as an American lexeme, but never used. I can't say that I've read much British literature, but "fall" comes after "trip", not "summer" in what I have read :). } }For "autumn", I agree with what they say it being from Sept to Dec in }North America. Does it indeed start in August in UK usage? Well, I can vouch for the weather getting noticeably cooler and wetter in the past few days. I can't say if that's autumn setting in, or if it's a struggle between typical year-round Scottish weather and sunshine. The end of August is when the weather starts to change here, but autumn doesn't begin, at least as a concept, until September-ish. } Any insights, opinions? I've not enough insights and far too many opinions. :) --Aaron ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 09:09:57 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Rat=Freshman; Football Terms > > RAT=FRESHMAN > > Perhaps VMI didn't start this. This is from Scholastic Magazine, Oct. > 26-31, 1942, pg. 32, col. 2: > > If Richmond beats William and Mary, freshmen may abandon their "rat > caps" for the rest of the year. Then again, perhaps it did: 1863 in Stanard Letters 9: I felt quite lonesome, there being only a few Rats left as a guard. [in reference to VMI] And in what appears to the the 'freshman' sense, OED2 has an example from 1850 in Louisiana. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:55:31 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: autumn Daniel Long wrote: > For "fall", does this mean that "fall" is rare EVEN in literary use in > the UK, and thus not used in conversational speech? i'll throw in some info from UK english's closer cousin, south african english. the only time i heard 'fall' was when people said 'as you americans say, "fall"...' > For "autumn", I agree with what they say it being from Sept to Dec in > North America. Does it indeed start in August in UK usage? Any > insights, opinions? i think of autumn as sept to november. (the calendar says december, but it's snowing where i come from usually before t-giving.) in south africa, autumn (if you perceive an autumn) is may-ish, but that's another matter... lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 11:14:00 PDT From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: autumn Hmm. If the speakers of UK English don't have fall for autumn, then how do they know which way to adjust their clocks for summertime, our daylight savings time? Over here we say "Spring forward, Fall backwards." We'd never say "Autumn backwards." -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 13:26:08 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: three-track road I recently read a novel set in modern South Georgia that mentioned a three-track (or -trail or -rut, I can't remember exactly) road. The character talked about it as a part of South Georgia dialect, but raised the question "Why is it three? There are two ruts that tires make and a grass track in the middle. Why not two?" Two questions: Is this in fact part of the dialect of South Georgia (and possibly other areas), and why is it three instead of two? Thanks! Jessie > INTERGRAPH > Jessie Emerson > Channel Publications/Webmaster > Tel: 205/730-2711 Fax: 205/730-2718 > E-mail: jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ingr.com > WWW: http://www.intergraph.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:08:24 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: autumn > Hmm. If the speakers of UK English don't have fall for autumn, then how do > they know which way to adjust their clocks for summertime, our daylight savings > time? > > Over here we say "Spring forward, Fall backwards." We'd never say "Autumn > backwards." Easy. They say, "I autumn make my clock run an hour slower." > Sorry, gang. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:29:10 -0400 From: Alan Baragona Subject: Re: Rat=Freshman; Football Terms At 09:09 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: >> >> RAT=FRESHMAN >> >> Perhaps VMI didn't start this. This is from Scholastic Magazine, Oct. >> 26-31, 1942, pg. 32, col. 2: >> >> If Richmond beats William and Mary, freshmen may abandon their "rat >> caps" for the rest of the year. > >Then again, perhaps it did: > >1863 in Stanard Letters 9: I felt quite lonesome, there being >only a few Rats left as a guard. > >[in reference to VMI] > >And in what appears to the the 'freshman' sense, OED2 has an example >from 1850 in Louisiana. > >Jesse Sheidlower > > The 1850 OED citation goes as follows (from the online version): "1850 M. Tensas Odd Leaves Life Louisiana `Swamp Doctor' 113 There were four or five brother `Rats' besides myself residing in the hospital, all candidates for graduation, and..all desirous of obtaining sufficient medical lore." The earliest written use of "Rat" for "freshman" at VMI is in the 1896 yearbook, _The Bomb_, but it may have been in use for some 20 or 30 years before that. According to William Couper's _One Hundred Years at V. M. I. (1939), freshmen were called "plebes" into the early 1860's. Some time in the 60's, the terminology changed, presumably to "Rat." So VMI did not start it. :-( As for Barry Popik's earlier posting about the "Ratline," it is, in fact, an imaginary line that Rats must walk whenever they are in barracks, moving along railings and walls, cutting sharp, imaginary corners across walkways, and always in an exaggerated position of attention. From the line they walk in barracks, the term has been generalized to the entire Rat experience. So Rats WALK the Ratline, but they are also IN the Ratline until mid-March, when they "break out." "Break Out" has changed over the years. I'm not sure what it was like originally, but back in the 1950's, Rats actually had to break out of a room by fighting their way out against the rest of the corps. By the 60's, they were fighting their way up the stairs of the 4 levels of barracks while upperclassmen pushed them back and dropped unspeakable substances on them from above. I'm told that when one Rat fell over a railing and broke a limb (a Rat allegedly related to a member of the Board of Visitors), they changed Break Out to the current system of fighting their way up a couple of muddy hills. "And how but in ritual and ceremony are innocence and beauty born?" :-) Alan Baragona alan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 15:49:39 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>three-track road A three-track road, from my rural Missouri days, has *three* ruts. The left tires of traffic going one way and the right tires of traffic going the other share the middle rut, and one or the other pulls over on a cattle bridge on some side track when they meet. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:07:16 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>three-track road A three-track road, from my rural Missouri days, has *three* ruts. The left tires of traffic going one way and the right tires of traffic going the other share the middle rut, and one or the other vehicle pulls over on a cattle bridge on some side track when they meet. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 16:13:53 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Rat=Freshman; Football Terms Alan Baragona wrote: > > At 09:09 AM 8/28/97 -0400, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: > > > >1863 in Stanard Letters 9: I felt quite lonesome, there being > >only a few Rats left as a guard. > > > >[in reference to VMI] > > The earliest written use of "Rat" for "freshman" at VMI is in the 1896 > yearbook, _The Bomb_, but it may have been in use for some 20 or 30 years > before that. According to William Couper's _One Hundred Years at V. M. I. > (1939), freshmen were called "plebes" into the early 1860's. Some time in > the 60's, the terminology changed, presumably to "Rat." > > So VMI did not start it. :-( Well, while VMI did not start it, the actual earliest written use for a VMI freshman is that 1863 quote I posted above. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 14:42:39 PDT From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: RE>three-track road >> A three-track road, from my rural Missouri days, has *three* ruts. The left >> tires of traffic going one way and the right tires of traffic going the >> other share the middle rut, ... I've seen this twice and have to believe that no matter which way the traffic is going it is always the left tires of the vehicles sharing the middle rut! -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:03:53 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin Subject: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang I'm one of a few Introduction to Language instructors at Georgetown who's heard that USIA put out a short version of _American Tongues_. I'd be grateful to know how we could borrow a copy of this version of the film, since the original is too long for in-class use. We're also thinking of having 50-75 first-year students produce a dictionary of Georgetown slang. I'd be grateful for information on good recent college slang dictionary projects besides UCLA's _Slang 3_ and - for how-to tips - the opportunity to correspond with anyone who's recently done a similar project with undergraduates. Many thanks. Maggie Ronkin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 18:08:35 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>three-track road; Damon Runyon Jim said: > I've seen this twice and have to believe that no matter which way the traffic > is going it is always the left tires of the vehicles sharing the middle rut! You're right. Goes to show how often I leave New York City and return to the dirt roads and farm land. I was trying to do too much at once, as evidenced by the multiple messages, which I now apologize for. (I see no use in simply apologizing for accidentally sending multiple messages as the apology is usually as irritating for its lack of content as the duplicate message is). While we're at it: I am reading a collection of Damon Runyon stories. Perhaps there exists a work I should look at that offers some kind of analysis of his dialectical impact? When was the last time you heard a hat referred to as a "cady"? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 17:36:43 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang Maggie, the "short" version of _American Tongues_ is about 45 minutes, and if you call it in through inter library loan of some sort, request "high school" version. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 08:17:27 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell Subject: Damon Runyon Grant: Yes - Damon Runyon indeed had quite the voice. David Maurer blessed Runyon's grasp of underworld lingo, and on top of that Runyon was not shy in the coining department - original Runyon rhyming slang, words enhanced by decorative and meaningless suffixes, slight twists of meanings of words and expressions, double plurals, double past particples, functional shifts, etc. etc. Check out Runyonese: The Mind and Craft of Damon Runyon by Jean Wagner (Paris and New York: Stechert-Hafner, 1965). Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 20:23:00 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang what did they cut out of the 'high school version' of american tongues? lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Aug 1997 to 28 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Aug 1997 to 29 Aug 1997 here are 9 messages totalling 289 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Rat=Freshman; Football Terms 2. fall/autumn (2) 3. PhillySpeak; Hoagies; Antidentite 4. Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang (5) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 22:51:00 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Rat=Freshman; Football Terms Barry quotes and annotates, >_Coffin Corner Kick_. This term was first applied to the slanting punts >of the University of Pennsylvania's George Brooke which rolled out of bounds >close to the angle formed by the sideline and the goal-line. The phrase >later was revived by LeRoy N. Wills, a lawyer whose hobby was teaching boys >to control their kicks and to punt diagonally for the deep corner. (When it >was rumored that Jimmy Hoffa was buried mob-style at Giants Stadium in New >Jersey, some headlines mentioned that he was in the "coffin >corner"--ed.) Not to be picky, but I wanted to forestall a possible misinterpretation. When Giants Stadium (a.k.a. The Meadowlands) was build in the Jersey swampland, the rumor was it was built on top where Hoffa and various other putative mob executees were buried. Hoffa's interment, in other words, would have fertilized rather than disturbed the astroturf. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 23:35:27 -0500 From: Dan Goodman Subject: fall/autumn I can't recall _ever_ reading or hearing "fall" defined as including December, in the US. It may be relevant that I grew up in the Hudson Valley, and currently live in Minneapolis. However, I've also lived in Los Angeles. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 14:14:07 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: fall/autumn Dan Goodman wrote: > I can't recall _ever_ reading or hearing "fall" defined as including > December, in the US. > It may be relevant that I grew up in the Hudson Valley, and currently > live in Minneapolis. However, I've also lived in Los Angeles. Oops. Thanks for the comment/correction. Actually a more relevant fact than your upbringing here is that I am careless typist. The OED had said "Sept to Nov" and that is what I meant to agree with in my posting. Nope. I agree, Dec isn't part of fall where I'm from (Tennessee) either. Danny Long -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 02:21:37 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: PhillySpeak; Hoagies; Antidentite PHILLYSPEAK I was in Philadelphia and found these letters in the Philadelphia City Paper, August 29-September 4, 1997, page 4, col. 2: PHILLY MISSPEAK One minor error in an otherwise splendid article ("PhillySpeak," Aug. 15): The quote about "anymore" being "a South Philadelphia barbarism" is most certainly from Red SMITH, not Red Barber. To the best of my knowledge, Red Barber worked neither in newspapers nor in Philadelphia; Red Smith covered sports for the Philadelphia _Record_ from 1936 to 1945. Andrew Milner Bryn Mawr ajm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bbs.cpcn.com As a Philadelphia-born Murray with a mother named Mary, and who once dated a Merry, your piece on how Philadelphia speaks "spoke" to me. Reminded me of how my dad pronounced certain words. For instance, there was one Japanese cat he called a Tay-Ota. Nice job, fella. Murray Dubin South Philadelphia The City Paper is at http://www.citypaper.com. I'll try to get the article. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- HOAGIES This should be the definitive statement, but it's not: Known throughout the rest of the country as a submarine sandwich, hero or grinder, the Philadelphia hoagie is a sandwich of luncheon meats, cheeses, lettuce, tomato and onion with mayonnaise or oil served on a long roll. Many stories exist as to how the hoagie got its name, the most likely of which is a coruption of the term "hokey pokey" man. These Italian street vendors were probably the first to marry their antipasto salads with a "pinafore" roll in the late 19th century. --THE LARDER INVADED: REFLECTIONS ON THREE CENTURIES OF PHILADELPHIA FOOD AND DRINK by Mary Anne Hines, Gordon Marshall, and WIlliam Woys Weaver, 1987 from a joint exhibition held 17 November 1986 to 25 April 1987 by the Library Company of Philadelphia and the Historical Society of Philadelphia. By 1965--when we have our first "hoagie" citation--the 19th century "hokey-pokey" man was old news. Why is THIS more any more likely than the other versions? The store WAWA put some hoagie information at www.hoagie.com. Last summer, the world's largest hoagie was made for the annual "hoagie day." I went through the weekly THE PHILADELPHIA SPOT LITE (WHERE TO GO--WHAT TO SEE) and a few (not many) of the monthly PHILADELPHIA MAGAZINE. A thorough search of the latter will probably turn up something. In the former, in the week of December 28, 1974, for example, I noticed that the places that advertised sandwiches were--go-go clubs! The Opal Room at 1627 Ranstead Street was "Featuring fine sandwiches." Slick Chicks at 1001 Race Street had a "complete menu of delicious hot sandwiches." The Play Pen Lounge at the rear of 1418 Walnut Street had "King-Sized Sandwiches Served Daily!" Also, "Our dancers bend over backwards to please you! Our waitresses are eager to serve you!" Not to say, necessarily, that you could get a "hoagie" from a "ho," but I'll solve it,,, ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- RAT=FRESHMAN; MONEY TALKS The Virginia Military Institute (Lexington, VA, founded 1839) has "rats." But the College of William & Mary (Williamsburg, VA, founded 1693!!) also had "rats." I'm inclined to believe that VMI gave "rats" to W&M in the 19th century, but I've done no research at W&M. Burton Stevenson's book of collected proverbs (the title varies) has the 1666 "Man prates, but gold speaks--Torriano, PIAZZA UNIVERSALE." He also has "Against the talking power of money eloquence is of no avail (Auro loquente nihil pallet quaevis oratio)--Erasmus, ADAGIA, iii, iii, (1523)." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- ANTIDENTITE I've been in great pain all week. Especially today. OWWWW! A SEINFELD rerun last week used a different name for the tooth Nazis. JERRY SEINFELD: You're an antidentite! I know I'm in good hands, though, because my dentist also does the teeth of actors Armand Assante and Bernadette Peters, as well as supermodels (whatever they are). ARMAND ASSANTE: Antidentite! I will keel you! And then I will eat you with my shiny white teeth! If you bump into Bernadette, tell her I want to check out her mouth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 07:52:22 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang I'm using a slang project as one of many ways to get my freshman comp. students interested in language matters of all sorts this fall. They'll do the collection on campus, work up a reasonable, representative list, and make sure it's copy-edited to be submitted (or subjected) to the campus newspaper for publication. The project also includes some responsible dictionary work. I assume this is done at many campuses; perhaps if you get lots of responses to your query we could look into some national coordination. I recall that the Random House HDAS is pretty heavy on slang at the Univ. of Tennessee, presumably because that's where the informants were. As interesting as that is, maybe we could expand the sampling a wee bit. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 08:02:38 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang > what did they cut out of the 'high school version' of american > tongues? I haven't seen it, but I'll bet it's the "n" word and the part about the ice chest. > Peter R. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:33:37 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang I think Connie Eble at U of NC at Chapel Hill would definitely be a good contact. I used her book, Slang and Sociability, in my introduction class last year; my students really liked her book. I'm teaching the course with her book again this semester. When I took a brief survey in class this week, I was surprised by the number of students who listed slang as their area of interest about language. (Connie probably could have told me this, if I had asked her.) I assume that the student grapevine has spread the word about the fact that slang is included in the course now. > We're also thinking of having 50-75 first-year students produce a > dictionary of Georgetown slang. I'd be grateful for information on good > recent college slang dictionary projects besides UCLA's _Slang 3_ and - > for how-to tips - the opportunity to correspond with anyone who's recently > done a similar project with undergraduates. Jeutonne Brewer ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 21:58:33 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang On Fri, 29 Aug 1997, Peter Richardson wrote: > > what did they cut out of the 'high school version' of american > > tongues? > I haven't seen it, but I'll bet it's the "n" word and the part about the > ice chest. > > > Peter R. I suspect you are right, although I have never seen the short version. I use the original version even in a shorter class period. That means that I have to be sensitive to and prepare the class for what they will hear. However, I think the loss of the ice chest part would be unfortunate. ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Aug 1997 22:22:55 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Queries: _Am. Tongues_ & Slang Ice chest is in the short version. I've used the short version several times. The long thing with the telephone operator/numbers is out, and I don't really miss that. beth ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Aug 1997 to 29 Aug 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Aug 1997 to 31 Aug 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 209 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Videorazzi 2. Hoagies; Gyp Joint 3. Kenyon Book 4. ...razzi/Buck House ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:58:35 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Videorazzi Princess Diana is dead. I can't believe it. David Shulman told me about his research into "paparazzi" (and "paparazzo"). The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology is correct: PAPARAZZO n., pl. PAPARAZZI, aggressive photographer who pursues celebrities. 1961, American English, borrowing of Italian _paparazzo_, in allusion to the surname of a free-lance photographer in the Italian motion picture _La Dolce Vita_ (1959). Last summer, when I was in the British Isles, I came across "videorazzi" in the London Times and waited for it to cross the pond. I don't have Nexis now to check if "stalkerazzi" came first and to compare it with other "-azzi" citations. "-azzi" is becoming to the media what "-gate" is to political scandals. This is from the Sunday Times (London), Style, Section 9, 18 August 1996, pg. 1 (photo of Princess Diana with her hand approaching a camera lens): FIGHTS, CAMERA, ACTION If Diana hates the paparazzi, wait until she meets the videorazzi (Continued on pages 10-11) Video nasties The royals are fighting back against the ever-intrusive paparazzi. But there's a new, even greater threat that's just arrived from Hollywood--the videorazzi, right (photo--ed.) CHRISTOPHER GODWIN reports The paparazzi have gone too far and are being firmly put in their place. Last week, the Princess of Wales obtained an injunction banning Martin Stenning from coming within 300m of her. It was Stenning whose motorbike beys Diana removed last month in order to stop him from following her. And the Queen, too, has made her feelings known by taking legal action against five freelance paparazzi in Scotland to stop them bothering the family while they holiday at Balmoral. As if they didn't already have enough of a fight on their hands, there is a new threat on its way. In fact, it's already arrived, fresh from America--the videorazzi, already the scourge of Hollywood. These new attack dogs of the celebrity press corps are so aggressive and ruthless that even some old-time paparazzi disown them. The videorazzi earn their pieces of silver by flogging unflattering videotape footage of stars caught cheating, in flagrante, drunk, drugged, even dead, to the tabloid American television shows such as Hard Copy, Inside Edition and American Journal--the wallpaper of the early-evening airwaves. Their sworn enemies: the very stars from whom they earn their lucre. To most celebrities, who enjoy the enormous benefits that their fame and wealth bring them, the occasional intrusions of the videorazzi--who, after all, are only pandering to a voracious appetite for celebrity material that the stars, the studios and their publicists are already feeding--are a necessary evil. Others, however, feel threatened and overwhelmed by the depredations of the videorazzi (or the "stalkerazzi" or "scumerazzi" as some stars prefer to call them), who are becoming increasingly aggressive and ruthless to get the shots they want. (...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 01:49:16 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Hoagies; Gyp Joint In the "videorazzi" posting, "beys" is a typo for "keys." I lost today's $25 million lotto drawing. So much for that idea of DARE funding. If no one won, I'll play again next week for $40 million. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOAGIES John Ayto's book on food words is infinitely better than the recent LADYFINGERS; Ayto says the meaning of "hoagie" is a mystery, while the latter book didn't mention it at all. In my limited time for research, I can clearly discount the "hokey-pokey" derivation cited previously in a book by the Library Company of Philadelphia and the Historical Society of Philadelphia. Didn't they do ANY "hoagie" research? If they did, they should have found this in Philadelphia magazine, November 1970, page 82: A GREASY DOZEN A gastronomic quest for the perfect hoagie unearthed one runny exemplar and 11 slippery also-rans BY WILLIAM K. MANDEL (...) Before setting out in actual quest of the perfect hoagie, we had to determine what the perfect hoagie is. But first, a little history: the origin of the name "hoagie" is the subject of bitter debate among people who can get excited about that sort of thing. The oldest legend has it that the Italian workers laboring at Hog Island--near the present Naval Base during World War I--took their lunches to work inside large Italian breads. From Hog Island came "hoggie," which in time was corrupted to "hogie" and then turned into "hoagie." Field research has shown that several older shops in South Philadelphia still advertise their specialty as "hogies," which clamps down the case right there. The hoagie, by the way, has spread to other localities where its etymology has been somewhat corrupted. In New England it's called a grinder; in New York it's a submarine--sub for short--or hero sandwich; in Reading it's known as an Italian sandwich and in the Lancaster area it's a zep. Thus, it's a simple transition from Hog Island to "hogie"--which should be "hoggie" but became "hoagie." Too bad; I liked the strip club "ho" etymology. Oh well. This is from the Philadelphia magazine "Dining Out" for August 1972, page 149: One last place we know for particular tastes is the takeout counter at Woolworth's, 1330 Chestnut Street. Woolie's makes an ultra-cheap 45-cent hoagie filled with the most ordinary ingredients, sliced razor-thin. It should taste awful, but somehow it doesn't. It's one of the most popular items on their menu, sampled by every one from business executives to down-and-outs, We personally know one editor of a famous magazine who occasionally passes up the $5 Big Lunch to have a Woolie's hoagie. For another 20 cents, you can get the jumbo size with twice as many razor-thin ingredients, but it really doesn't taste any better. R.I.P. to the Woolie's hoagie. Tempus fugit. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GYP JOINT According to Amazon.com, the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang H-R is out! I haven't finished antedating the first one. "Gyp joint" is defined as "a business establishment that makes a practice of fleecing customers." The earliest HDAS citation is in 1927 by T. A. Dorgan, cited from the TAD LEXICON. As with the "hot dog," TAD didn't coin the term. This is from Variety, 6 January 1926, pg. 11, last column (5?): CLEANUP ON 'GYPSY' JOINTS Skull Examiners Visited Many on Avenues The phrenologists' "joints" that have sprung up like mushrooms just east and west of the "big stem" (Broadway--ed.) are in for a cleanup, according to Plainclothes Patrolman Charles Stapleton and Harold O'Neil of the West 47th street station. Within a few days they "bagged" three. All were convicted. In one case a suspended sentence was imposed. In the other two $10 fines were meted out. These alleged "gypsies" have migrated from other cities. Some came from Canada. Maspeth, L. I. also sent a quota. They have "camped" on 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th avenues. At least a score of places are in operation. During the day the "Romany" mother or sister in her gaudy costume stands inside of the entrance. She raps on the glass panel to attract passersby. She beckons and if lucky gets a customer. Inside the "camps" are countless children. "Mother Gypsy" phrenologist, according to the sign on the door, beings to read one's cranium. First she exacts her fee of $1. Then she starts out looking for bumps. First, the "gypsy" requests you place both hands in your hip pockets. That is to determine if you are a "bull." (...) CAN THEY GIVE ME SIX LOTTO NUMBERS?? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 13:45:41 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Kenyon Book The delay in the delivery of John Samuel Kenyon's AMERICAN PRONUNCIATION, 12th Edition, Expanded, has been resolved, so those of you who have ordered examination or personal copies should receive them shortly after Labor Day. Please excuse my using the ads list for this purpose, but I don't know the identities of those who ordered the book but do know that many are subscribers to this list. (The book is an ADS Centennial Publication.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 31 Aug 1997 22:59:31 EDT From: DMC Rogers Subject: Re: ...razzi/Buck House Speaking of words used in the discussions of Princess Diana's death, I noticed several people calling Buckingham Palace "Buck House." Does anybody know anything about the origins of that or earlier uses? On Sun, 31 Aug 1997 00:58:35 -0400 "Barry A. Popik" writes: > Princess Diana is dead. I can't believe it. > David Shulman told me about his research into "paparazzi" (and >"paparazzo"). The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology is correct: > >PAPARAZZO n., pl. PAPARAZZI, aggressive photographer who pursues >celebrities. > 1961, American English, borrowing of Italian _paparazzo_, in allusion >to the >surname of a free-lance photographer in the Italian motion picture _La >Dolce >Vita_ (1959). ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Aug 1997 to 31 Aug 1997 ************************************************