There are 44 messages totalling 965 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. I before E (13)

 2. -head (5)

 3. Century 21 (4)

 4. So fun (6)

 5. /w/ and /hw/ (2)

 6.  No subject given 

 7. Zero or "o"? -Reply (2)

 8. so fun

 9. *-head*

 10. Zero or "o"? -Reply -Reply

 11. the f-word

 12. funnest

 13. SNEAKERS vs.PLIMPSOLES (Bounced Mail) (2)

 14. -heads (2)

 15. Zero or "o"?

 16. Open Mic



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:45:05 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



 Date:     Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:16:52 -0500

 From: "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 



 Does anyone know the source of the spelling rule, "I before E except after

 C..."?

[snip]



I learned it as, "I before E except after C and when rhyming with A as in

neighbor and weigh." You're supposed to then remember that "height," as the

most common exception is similar in meaning (and hence spelling) to "weigh."



While there are many exceptions, I found it useful as a young speller.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 00:41:24 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: -head



How about other languages? I think of (transliterated) goyishe cup -

Gentile head - a relatively mild insult in Yiddish, for stupid person.



 From another thread - growing up in NYC, I always said sneakers. An old

boyfriend from Arkansas always called them tennies.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:10:30 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Century 21



 (On "Nineteen aught three", as brought up by Ron Butters--)

 

 Right, as in the "Naughty Aughties", another round of which will be coming up

 before we know it. Do any other ADS-ers have any predictions on what the

 coming decade will be called? Or the one after it, for that matter? (This

 question has been entertained by Safire in his On Language columns, but of

 course inconclusively.)

 

 Larry

 

 



Does the 21st Century begin Jan 1, 2000 or 2001?

Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:31:52 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: So fun



I believe the adjectival status of 'fun' has grown in AmerEng. (although I

have not seen any formal stufy of it).

When I was a kid (40's - 50's, Louisville) 'fun' was a noun (We had a lot

of fun). Since it was noncount, when it occurred bare in copular

predicative positions (That was fun, It was fun) it had no article marking

(*That was a fun) and seems to have been reanalyzed as a predicative

adjective (by analogy with such strings as 'He was happy.' etc...). I

believe I may have participated in this reanalysis.

I did not, however, take the next step (which I believe happened in the

generation right after me) and allow this new predicative adjectival

'float' to prenominal position (That was a fun party, We had a fun time

last night). My student are puzzled to find that I find these sentences

genrrationally ungrammatical.

Peter's notes attests usage which now shows that 'fun' is a full-fledged

adjective (at least in the mouths of younger speakers), and I have heard

'so fun' as well as other strings which include clearly adverbial modifiers

of 'fun' (e.g., 'We had a real(ly) fun time). It appears to me that such

data show that the adjectivalization of 'fun' is complete.

This usage is noted by lexicographers. Even in the dusty American Heritage

(1969) we find an entry for fun as 'adj. Informal' with the citation 'a fun

group of people.'

I do have a 'fun' verb, however, where I bet a lot of y'all don't. E.g., 'I

was just (a)-funnin' you.' I.e., 'I was just teasing, fooling you.' DARE

shows this as chiefly Southern and South Midland.

Dennis (always a fun guy) Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 A colleague just asked me whether I'd ever heard the expression "so fun".

 

 It sounds odd to me, and I THINK I'd say "such fun" or "so much fun", but

 I'm not 100% sure that I might not have said "so fun" experimentally as a

 kid, or that I have never heard anyone else say it. I can't quite get to

 the bottom of my own usage grammatically, since I'm pretty sure that when

 I say "It was fun", I'm thinking fun(adj.) and not fun(noun), and if this

 is the case, the adverb "so" would be appropriate, not the adjectivess

 "such" or "so much".

 

 My colleague says her daughter-in-law, who is from California, says it

 all the time, and she wonders if it's California regional usage. If so,

 maybe it's regional elsewhere as well. Or is it just idiolectal?

 

 Any thoughts?

 

 Peter McGraw

 Linfield College

 McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:26:57 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: -head



Bob Haas asked:



BTW, has anyone mentioned

 "pinhead" as in Zippy the . . . ?

 



Pinheads were a fascinating group of circus sideshow freaks who I presume

were hydoencephalitics whose water had been removed.  The head came to a

point and they were somewaht mentally retarded. Tod Browning's 1932 movie

Freaks, an all time classic, featured them. They resided in Gibsontown

Florida where the sideshow people from the circus winter quartered. Flossie,

who was featured in the movie, died about 10 years ago.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:48:25 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: -head



 How about other languages? I think of (transliterated) goyishe cup -

 Gentile head - a relatively mild insult in Yiddish, for stupid person.





I don't think "stupid person" is quite accurate. From usage I have heard

it is more of a Christian way of looking at things than a Jewish one. It is

more one of attitude and cultural philosophy, but with the slant that one

is a more intelligent way of looking at a subject.



Examples might be interesting if you're game.



Goyishe cup:               Yiddishe cup:



Drives a

Ford station wagon            Oldsmobile Cutlass

Lincoln                  Cadillac

Saab                   Lexus



spreads on roast beef:



mayonaise or horse radish         ketchup



eats:



white bread                rye or pumpernickel

flatbread                 pita



wears:

pearls                  gold necklace

wool skirt                leather skirt



wants son to become a:

banker                  doctor



wants daughter to marry a:

banker                  doctor



I'm sure you could come up with better examples.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:38:54 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Of course. We just forgot our HistEng info. While we are on this, would

somebody who has the HistEng stuff at their fingertips explain why there

are both [u] and [o] pronunciations of 'whore' in ModAmerEng? Bill's note

below explains why 'whore' is not [wo:r] or [hwo:r], but why did the Great

Vowel Shift apparently shift twice for some speakers. (In the US, I have

heard [hu:r] only in Northern and NorthEastern varieties.)

Dennis Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 Why isn't "who" pronounced [wu:] or [hwu:]? Because a Middle Endlish to

 Modern English change deleted [w] between a consonant and a back vowel, for

 example, "two" is [tu:] and "sword" is [sord]. Without analogical leveling,

 the past tense of "swear" would be "sore".

 Bill Smith

 Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:57:50 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject:  No subject given 



Wayne Glowka wrote:



The plural (or whatever it is) of heartburn seems related to the similar

 phenomenon in "cramps," "measles," "hives," "the dry heaves," "the runs,"

 "scabbies," "the farts," "the shits," "hiccups/hiccoughs," "the Hershey

 squirts," "mumps," and others I cannot think of. Surely, a bit of folk

 etymology could make "rabies" out to be some kind of plural.

 

 On occasion, I have joked and claimed that I had "the burps," "the gasses,"

 and "the dribble pisses."

 

 

 Wayne Glowka

 Professor of English

 Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

 Georgia College

 Milledgeville, GA 31061

 912-453-4222

 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



No wonder nobody wants to room with you at the conventions!! : )



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:22:38 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: So fun



I think the important article on the adjectival use of _fun_

is still John Algeo "A Fun Thing" _American Speech_ 37 (1962)

158-9.



As for "so fun," the earliest example of adjectival "fun"

in the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang,

from 1862 [sic], is for this form:



 This was "never so fun...except when he was drunk."



We comment in a note that "The 1862 quot. is remarkably early and

may simply reflect a slip of the pen or a typographical error

for _funny_"; nonetheless, there's your early example of the form.



I, personally, find "so fun" completely natural, but them I'm

just a kid.



Best,



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:26:04 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Century 21



 

  Does the 21st Century begin Jan 1, 2000 or 2001?



2001, but as someone (Safire?) said, the people who rigorously

insist on this will be home alone when all the good parties

are going on for New Year's Day, 2000.



Jesse Sheidlower

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:42:27 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM 

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"? -Reply



To paraphrase from _Copy Editor_ magazine, June/July 1994 (I'm sure

you're already familiar with this, Jesse), The NY Times has decided

to call the years 2000 to 2009 the "Ohs," which, personally, I think

is pretty horrendous. Other suggestions from various places include

the Ands, the Aughts, [Oughts, Aughties, Oughties, Naughts], the

Millennium, the Turns, the Deuce Ands, the Two Triple Ohs, the

Zilches, the Digits, the Zots, the Preteens, the Newborn Decade, and

the Zero Decade. The article is pretty thorough--I recommend it.



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



    Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU  11/30/95, 03:48pm    

(On "Nineteen aught three", as brought up by Ron Butters--)



Right, as in the "Naughty Aughties", another round of which will be

coming up before we know it. Do any other ADS-ers have any

predictions on what the coming decade will be called? Or the one

after it, for that matter? (This question has been entertained by

Safire in his On Language columns, but of course inconclusively.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 06:57:43 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



  Does anyone know the source of the spelling rule, "I before E except after

  C..."?

  This question came up in Michael Montgomery's response to my paper at the

  Southeastern Conference on Linguistics, where I showed that the rule is not

  very useful,

  and suggested that one spelling, "ceiling," might actually have been based on

  that rule.



Although I feel I'm a fairly acurrate speller, spelling the word "receive"

always pauses me. Each time, including this note, I have to stop and dig out

the I/E/C rule to be sure I did it right. I have no idea why I have a mental

block on this word. Do others?



-- Jim

(The spelling of accurate was a joke!!!!)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:17:39 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman"  egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM 

Subject: so fun



We have a short article on "fun" in M-WDEU too. It contains an 1853

citation from the OED Supplement.



E.W.Gilman



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:00:57 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



And then there's the self-referential exception, which has to be spelled the

way it is because it's "weird".



          Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:54:00 CST

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 

Subject: *-head*



As DARE notes, and as most of the citations given thus far in this thread attes

t, compounds ending in *-head* tend to be derogatory. At a recent meeting of m

y department, however, the Chair refered to the folks who do literary theory as

 "theoryheads"--no sarcasm, no irony, no negative overtones of any sort. I don

't know how widespread *theoryhead* is; in fact, my Chair may have been engagin

g in a little friendly neology. (If so, the coinage neatly reflects just how a

ctive *-head* may be as a combining form.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:33:38 -0500

From:  "Allan M. Siegal"  siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM 

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"? -Reply



On Dec 01, 1995 09:42:27, 'Molly Dickmeyer

 dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM ' wrote:



 To paraphrase from _Copy Editor_ magazine, June/July 1994 (I'm sure

 you're already familiar with this, Jesse), The NY Times has decided

 to call the years 2000 to 2009 the "Ohs," which, personally, I think

 is pretty horrendous.

--------------

    We _have_? Nobody asked me.

--

Allan M. Siegal.........siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com

Assistant Managing Editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:37:03 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: So fun



Count me as a "so fun" speaker. B. 1959, Atlanta, GA.



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



 From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 30-NOV-1995 19:12:40.97

 Subj: So fun

 

 A colleague just asked me whether I'd ever heard the expression "so fun".

 

 It sounds odd to me, and I THINK I'd say "such fun" or "so much fun", but

 I'm not 100% sure that I might not have said "so fun" experimentally as a

 kid, or that I have never heard anyone else say it. I can't quite get to

 the bottom of my own usage grammatically, since I'm pretty sure that when

 I say "It was fun", I'm thinking fun(adj.) and not fun(noun), and if this

 is the case, the adverb "so" would be appropriate, not the adjectivess

 "such" or "so much".

 

 My colleague says her daughter-in-law, who is from California, says it

 all the time, and she wonders if it's California regional usage. If so,

 maybe it's regional elsewhere as well. Or is it just idiolectal?

 

 Any thoughts?

 

 Peter McGraw

 Linfield College

 McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 10:43:04 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM 

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"? -Reply -Reply



Gee, sorry Allan. The article says "_The New York Times_ plans to

call the years 2000 through 2009 the Ohs. `It is literal, logical

and, even more than positive, it portends what Paul Simon's lyric

calls `the age of miracle and wonder,'' says an editorial in the

newspaper." It doesn't give a date for said editorial.



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



    Allan M. Siegal  siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM  12/1/95, 10:33am    

On Dec 01, 1995 09:42:27, 'Molly Dickmeyer

 dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM ' wrote:



 To paraphrase from _Copy Editor_ magazine, June/July 1994 (I'm sure

 you're already familiar with this, Jesse), The NY Times has decided

 to call the years 2000 to 2009 the "Ohs," which, personally, I think

 is pretty horrendous.

--------------

    We _have_? Nobody asked me.

--

Allan M. Siegal.........siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com

Assistant Managing Editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:49:20 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



 Although I feel I'm a fairly acurrate speller, spelling the word "receive"

 always pauses me. Each time, including this note, I have to stop and dig out

 the I/E/C rule to be sure I did it right. I have no idea why I have a mental

 block on this word. Do others?

 

 -- Jim

 (The spelling of accurate was a joke!!!!)



How strange! I find myself in

the very same boat.

"Receive" is truly the only word

which gives me pause when I write.



Should we start a support group?

=^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 08:47:48 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: Century 21



 Does the 21st Century begin Jan 1, 2000 or 2001?

 Seth Sklarey



2001. Since there was no year 0, by definition the first century comprised

the years 1-100, the second century the years 101-200, and so on. Thus, the

twentieth century includes the years 1901-2000, and the twenty-first the

years 2001-2100.



Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:58:40 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: the f-word



I was too busy to read many of your posts for a while, there, but I don't

recall seeing a reference to this new book by one of our own. The following

is an excerpt from a review by Susan Ellis in Endpapers, The Memphis Flyer

Literary Supplement (last week, I think). Just in time for Christmas!!



*The F-Word* is edited by Jesse Sheidlower, who is a dictionary editor at

Random House and who in 1995 was named one of the 100 smartest people in New

York City by *New YOrk* magazine. Sheidlower's arrangement of *The F-Word* is

thus very business-like, containing entries starting with "absofuckinglutely"

and drawing to a close with "tit-fuck". Each entry includes the word's source

(most of the f-word variations come from the military), a definition, the date

of first recorded use (the earliest known appearnace in English of the word

"fuck" is 1475), and a sentence demonstrating proper usage.... There is also a

guide to f-words in other languages (the Italian "va fare in culo" translates

as "fuck off" and lterally means "go in the ass").



Wonder how many newspapers reviewed this one? Keep in mind this same newspaper

a couple of weeks ago had a cover illustration of a daVinci-esque drawing of a

human body with a crucifix superimposed over the genital area, so I guess

they've got plenty of the b-word. Congrats, Jesse.



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 09:28:34 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



Does anyone know any other weird exceptions?





  And then there's the self-referential exception, which has to be spelled the

  way it is because it's "weird".

 

           Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:20:13 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: So fun



On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



  A colleague just asked me whether I'd ever heard the expression "so fun".

 

  It sounds odd to me, and I THINK I'd say "such fun" or "so much fun", but

  I'm not 100% sure that I might not have said "so fun" experimentally as a

  kid, or that I have never heard anyone else say it. I can't quite get to

  the bottom of my own usage grammatically, since I'm pretty sure that when

  I say "It was fun", I'm thinking fun(adj.) and not fun(noun), and if this

  is the case, the adverb "so" would be appropriate, not the adjectivess

  "such" or "so much".

 

  My colleague says her daughter-in-law, who is from California, says it

  all the time, and she wonders if it's California regional usage. If so,

  maybe it's regional elsewhere as well. Or is it just idiolectal?

 

  Any thoughts?

 

  Peter McGraw

  Linfield College

  McMinnville, OR

 

I know I say "so fun" all the time, and so do a lot of younger (i.e. up

to about 30!) people I know. I'm originally from the St. Louis, Missouri

area.



I was wondering about another usage of "fun", which again I use all the

time. Besides the usual use of "fun" as describing an event (e.g. a

party), I'll also use "fun" in describing objects. For example, if

someone was wearing a shirt that had a really interesting pattern or was

brightly colored, I'd say, "Wow, what a fun shirt!" I could even say,

"That shirt is so fun." Is this strictly regional, or is it an age

thing?? (I'm 25, by the way, if it matters.)



Laurie Bowman

LInguistics Department

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:33:34 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: So fun



On "This shirt is so fun"--is this a development from "fun furs"?  LH



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:41:52 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  Pinheads were a fascinating group of circus sideshow freaks who I presume

  were hydoencephalitics whose water had been removed.  The head came to a

  point and they were somewaht mentally retarded. Tod Browning's 1932 movie

  Freaks, an all time classic, featured them. They resided in Gibsontown

  Florida where the sideshow people from the circus winter quartered. Flossie,

  who was featured in the movie, died about 10 years ago.



Seth,



Thanks for the background. Still looking for a copy of _Freaks_.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:42:17 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: So fun



Larry,



I don't think so. I could use "fun" to describe anything, not

necessarily clothing. Cars, paintings, shoes, anything that looks weird

or cool.



Laurie Bowman

Department of Linguistics

University of Arizona

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  On "This shirt is so fun"--is this a development from "fun furs"?  LH

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:46:49 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: funnest



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 01-Dec-1995 01:44pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: funnest





I haven't heard "so fun" but my step-son, who was a teen when I met him in

1980and who is now 31 always said some activity or 'tother was "the funnest" to

my cringes.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs







Received: 01-Dec-1995 01:46pm



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:51:35 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



  Does anyone know any other weird exceptions?



"Weird" isn't an exception if you think of the rule the way I do: i before

e except after c as long as it sounds like [i]. I say [wIrd], not [wird].

If you extend that rule to all pronunciations you're aware of, even if they're

not your own, you're left with almost no exceptions at all -- e.g., some

people pronounce the first syllable of "leisure" as [lE] rather than [li],

some people don't have [i] in "either" and "neither."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:02:07 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: SNEAKERS vs.PLIMPSOLES (Bounced Mail)



It is (or used to be) regional. The Brits cal them PLIMPSOLES. There was an

article about this in AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago. Check it out

--it will tell you a lot of what you want to know.

 

  On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, POLSKY ELLEN S wrote:

   

    Is the "sneaker"-"tennis shoe" distinction purely regional? Do some

    people use both with a different meaning attached to each? I come from

    Phila., and I used to use only the term "sneaker", but out here in

    Boulder, Colorado, it seems that "tennis shoe" is used exclusively. Any

    insight?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:07:38 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



The way I learned it was, "i" before "e" except after "c", or when sounds

like /ey/, as in "neighbor" and "neigh." "Either", "neither", "weird",

"leisure", and "seige" are 5 exceptions, if you please.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:17:40 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: -heads



Also another obvious one is SLEEPYHEAD (and surely there is a FUCKHEAD

somewhere in print).



But then -HEAD--especially in the sense of 'one who likes X' (cf. the

similar queeer-slang term -QUEEN)--can be suffixed to just about any noun

or adjective, so any "list" has to be pretty meaningless, unless it is

confined to opaque compounds (e.g., TOEHEAD) it seems to me.





 On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Jerry Miller wrote:



  Uh, has anybody mentioned "lunkhead" yet (the fact that I don't remember if

  anyone did probably qualifies me as one?)?

 

  Jerry Miller

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:08:48 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



Natalie writes,



----------------------------Original message----------------------------

  Does anyone know any other weird exceptions?



"Weird" isn't an exception if you think of the rule the way I do: i before

e except after c as long as it sounds like [i]. I say [wIrd], not [wird].

If you extend that rule to all pronunciations you're aware of, even if they're

not your own, you're left with almost no exceptions at all -- e.g., some

people pronounce the first syllable of "leisure" as [lE] rather than [li],

some people don't have [i] in "either" and "neither."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

_____________________

That is a really neat explanation, predicting e.g. why we spell "leisure" the

way we do, i.e. because some people pronounce it to rhyme with "measure". Un-

fortunately there are still exceptions: as far as I know nobody pronounces

"seizure" that way, so we should spell it (and the verb it derives from) with

-ie-. It does work nicely for "either" and "neither", which most of us are

aware CAN be pronounced with a diphthong even if we refrain from doing so our-

selves. This strategy does work better as a rationalization than as a peda-

gogical tool, though, since it requires us to be aware of everyone else's

phonological practices (perhaps after the fashion of Hilary Putnam's socio-

linguistic principle, the division of linguistic labor)--I never knew "weird"

wasn't pronounced everywhere with an [i].



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:17:07 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



err, ahh, 'seige' WOULD be an exception, IF we spelled it that way...

          Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

The way I learned it was, "i" before "e" except after "c", or when sounds

like /ey/, as in "neighbor" and "neigh." "Either", "neither", "weird",

"leisure", and "seige" are 5 exceptions, if you please.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:25:35 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



OOOPS! Well, my spelling always did leave a little to be desired. Can I

blame my mistake on having learned the rhyme that way?



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:42:58 EST

From:  Tony Vitale  vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



In case anyone is interested, the Regional Bell Operating Companies is "oh"

as standard. When the DA operator gets the number from his/her computer, s/he

is already answering another call when we're listening to the digitized play-

back of the number. The always record the zero as "oh", unless the number ends

in two zeros in which some RBOCs will say "hundred" as in 7200 -  "seventy-teo

hundred." In other words, for the TELCOs, the default is "oh."



    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:47:06 CST

From:  Erin McKean  emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: -heads



My husband regularly refers to people who like their technology

*too* much as "propellerheads".







Erin McKean

Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionaries



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:49:10 CST

From:  Erin McKean  emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Open Mic



The Beastie Boys song is titled "Pass the Mic".



Erin McKean

Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionaries



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:06:39 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



  That is a really neat explanation, predicting e.g. why we spell "leisure" the

  way we do, i.e. because some people pronounce it to rhyme with "measure". Un-

  fortunately there are still exceptions: as far as I know nobody pronounces

  "seizure" that way, so we should spell it (and the verb it derives from) with



I'm great at extending rules. I extend the "c" to not just the letter "c"

but to anything pronounced [s]. So "seizure" isn't an exception. But then

you're left with "siege."



  linguistic principle, the division of linguistic labor)--I never knew "weird"

  wasn't pronounced everywhere with an [i].



I consider "weird" and "forfeit" in the same category -- both are ei instead

of ie because both are pronounced [I] instead of [i]. But then there's

"friend" -- an [I] word that is an exception. It's one of very, very few

exceptions, though. Oops. Just thought of something. Do you yankees say

[frInd] or do you have an [E] sound in it? To me the vowel in "friend" is

the same as the vowel in "tin" and "ten" -- [I]. In any case, it's an

exception to the ie/ei rule since I don't think anybody says [frind].

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 17:01:50 PST

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: SNEAKERS vs.PLIMPSOLES (Bounced Mail)



Ron Butters calls attention to British _Plimpsoles_



The only spellings I am aware of are plimsoll, plimsole, plimsol. Perhaps

plimpsoles are footgear worn by pimps.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 20:27:38 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



For days, I have been wondering when we would get back to something

interesting -- I have not been very interested in "-head" words. But I have

been reading the posts, and so of course my sensitivity has been

increased. Tonight, as I read the latest issue of Knoxville's

slightly underground newspaper, MetroPulse, I noted the ff. paragraph,

which suggests that -head remains productive:



[In a column called "Ear to the Ground"]



"Chamberheads? Snitches inside the Chamber of Commerce offices on Tuesday

afternoon before the Phish concert at the Civic Coliseum told of buttoned-

down Chamber Prez Jack Hammontree climbing the walls. Groupies following the

hard-edged rock group had taken over the entire Chamber parking lot and

were jiving on the landscaped areas. The 'Tree appeared unready to go

outside and ask them to clear out, but was heard ranting loudly inside the

building." [Vol. 5 No. 37 p. 4 col. 1 FREE]



Bethany Dumas

 dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:53:26 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



In my paper at SECOL in November, I showed that "except after c" applies to

only eight

common words, seven of which are '-ceive" or "-ceit". How useful is that?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 21:56:07 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



I don't have my German dictionary here at home, but isn't 'whore' 'Hure' or

'Huere' in

German? If so, might the /u/ pronunciation be due to language interference?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 22:06:28 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



I don't have my _Petit Larousse_ here at home either, but I would guess that

'leisure',

'seizure', and 'forfeit' all come from Old Frence 'ei'. 'weird', however, is

Old English

('wyrd', if I remember correctly), but there may be something about "after

'w'", as there

is for "before 'gh'".

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:21:07 -0500

From:  Robert Swets  bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US 

Subject: Re: Century 21



On Fri, 1 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  Does the 21st Century begin Jan 1, 2000 or 2001?

  Seth Sklarey



2001. That's why the movie title.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Nov 1995 to 1 Dec 1995

***********************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 105 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /w/ and /hw/ (2)

 2. aol's banned list

 3. Positive anymore in Canada?

 4. I before E



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Dec 1995 09:32:02 EST

From:  Tony Vitale  vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



The word "whore" derived from Lat. karus 'dear (one)' where acc. to the First

Consonant Shift [k]   [h] ~ [x]. This might be of some help.



    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:57:33 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Tony writes "The word "whore" derived from Lat. karus 'dear (one)'" but of

course it is COGNATE with the Latin term rather than derived from it. The first

sound shift details how Germanic languages' consonants shift away from the

proto-IndoEuropean source for BOTH English  whore  AND Latin  karus .

On the question of German interference in the "who-er" pronunciation , my

Brochaus lists  die Hure  as pronounced with a long open o (backwards c:), which

is the English as well [for us r-less NYers].



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Dec 1995 10:59:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: aol's banned list



This morning's Chicago Tribune (Business Section p 1) has

a story relating America Online's list of proscribed words.

Specifically, the word 'breast' was on AOL's list of 'vulgar'

words. When the word was entered, it generated a message saying

that vulgar words were not permitted. 'Breast' has now been

deleted from the list (after protest by breast cancer survivors

who used AOL to share concerns). My question: what other

words are on the list? Can anyone provide the words and

any background provided by AOL?

George Carlin had only seven words (breast not among them);

I imagine AOL doubled or tripled the number, given 30 years

of hindsight.





******************************************************************

Edward Callary         Phone:  815-753-6627

Editor, NAMES         Fax:   815-753-0606

English Department       Internet: ecallary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu

Northern Illinois University

DeKalb, Il 60115-2863

******************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:43:17 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Positive anymore in Canada?



Just to change the subject a bit, I heard a pre-game interview last night with

Colin Campbell, coach of the NY Rangers (hockey), in which he uttered a

sentence with positive _anymore_. It was a simple affirmative sentence (which

I couldn't jot down because I was in the car, alas), with no implied negation,

counter-factual-icity, or the like. Like many hockey establishment types,

Campbell is Canadian (and it shows in his phonology); I suppose it would be

possible to find out where from some kind of biography. In any case, I'm

curious to know if there's any precedent for postitive _anymore_ anywhere in

Canada, in addition to the more "standard" US Midlands and Hudson Valley.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



PS Natalie asked about the vowel in _friend_ for those of us who contrast /I/

and /E/ before /n/. _Definitely_ /E/, to the point where I couldn't figure out

for a moment why the word is relevant to the discussion! af



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Dec 1995 12:46:06 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



As I've read and deleted postings on ei/ie I've been trying to recall the

rhyme that someone else mentioned: "I before e, except after c, or when sounded

 like ay, as in neighbor and weigh." I've also heard a little ditty that

follows the rhyme and lists most of the exceptions, but I was never able

to learn the ditty (nor interested in doing so). The Simon & Schuster Handbook

(1987) lists the exceptions, with the comment "Because there are so few

exceptions, they are worth memorizing":

  ie conscience, financier, science, species

  ei counterfeit, either, foreign, forfeit, height, leisure

    neither, seize, sleight, weird

The list is two chunks of the magic number 7, so one should be able to

memorize them -- sure!      DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Dec 1995 to 2 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 18 messages totalling 360 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /w/ and /hw/ (5)

 2. So fun (3)

 3. I before E (4)

 4. Slow response to postings

 5. -head (4)

 6. talking heads



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 09:07:41 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Hmmmmmm. This does not help in the issue I raised. The suggestion that a

German substratum provides the [u] pronunciation (rather than the more

general [o]) addresses my question. It is intuitively satisfying since I

think I noticed this phenomenon first in Milwaukee, a well-known repository

of such features. Tony's observation raises another issue. Why is 'whore' a

'wh' word at all? If it is from Latin 'karus,' the [a] to [o] business is

clear, but it should have been Latin 'kw' to become English 'wh,' (that is,

'hw'). So, Anglicists, why is it 'wh' at all?

Dennis (who has forgot too much of his Germanic philology) Preston

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



 The word "whore" derived from Lat. karus 'dear (one)' where acc. to the First

 Consonant Shift [k]   [h] ~ [x]. This might be of some help.

 

     \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:05:29 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: So fun



 Date:     Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:08:52 -0800

 From: Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

 

 A colleague just asked me whether I'd ever heard the expression "so fun".

 

 It sounds odd to me, and I THINK I'd say "such fun" or "so much fun", but

 I'm not 100% sure that I might not have said "so fun" experimentally as a

 kid, or that I have never heard anyone else say it. I can't quite get to

 the bottom of my own usage grammatically, since I'm pretty sure that when

 I say "It was fun", I'm thinking fun(adj.) and not fun(noun), and if this

 is the case, the adverb "so" would be appropriate, not the adjectivess

 "such" or "so much".

 

I use "so fun" all the time. I believe "fun" is considered an adjective

only colloquially, but that is the way I use it all the time. The thing I

object to is adding -er and -est for comparative and superlative use. I

occasionally hear it, but "more/most fun" are the only funs for me.



yoroshiku from the W. Coast

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 13:06:19 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: So fun



 Date:     Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:26:42 EST

 From: Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.ycc.yale.edu 



 Someone else may be en route to saying this better or with more evidence

  and

 citations, but there's a clear age dialect at work here. 'fun' is

  definitely

 an adjective for those under a certain age. for my kids (now 13 and 11), A

 can be funner than B, and C can be the funnest. As Bolinger, Paul, Breal

  et

 al would predict, these are quite distinct from 'funnier', 'funniest', so

 there's no logical argument against this particular zero-derivation--except

 that in OUR day, back when nouns were nouns, goddammit, 'fun' was a noun

  and

 proud OF it.



P.S. I am 29 and seem to fall right in the middle. While there are many

people who insist on retaining stringent rules regarding which words must

only be used as such-and-such parts of speech, in my vocabulary, damn and

ALL of its derivatives retain the letter "n." Mming an "n" is absolutely

out!:)



in fun, yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:52:53 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



    If English  whore  derives from Latin  karus , it must be as a loan-

word, much too late for Grimm's Law. So then it should be  *core , which it

ain't. So much for armchair etymologizing. In such questions, my sainted

OE professor, Rudolph Willard, used to repair to the OED, which informs us

that OE had  hore  (possibly derived from ON), and that the  wh  spelling is

a 16-th century refinement (I would guess on the model of  whole ). But any

connection with a Latin /k/ would have to be at a pre-Latin level, not a

direct borrowing.

    --Rudy Troike (back in the fray again!)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 12:59:31 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: So fun



Not by a dam sight! The form "dammit" was long permissible in newsprint at

a time when the sensibilities of readers and editors prohibited the use of

 damn  and its relatives. It was a way to smuggle some forcefulness into

character representations and expressions when "gosh" was about as forceful

an expletive as was normally allowed. Ah, for the good old days!

    --Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 11:57:31 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



  In my paper at SECOL in November, I showed that "except after c" applies to

  only eight

  common words, seven of which are '-ceive" or "-ceit". How useful is that?



Presuming your 8th word was "ceiling", did you forget "-ceipt" (receipt) or is

that part of your "-ceive" group?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 15:29:57 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Slow response to postings



Is it only me, or are the postings to ADS getting delayed two - three days?

On other lists, I do a check mail to verify about 45 seconds after doing a

post, and usually get a copy of my e-mail.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:06:16 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



A colleague of mine wanted to make sure I added "chowderhead" to the "-head"

list. That then reminded me of "knucklehead,"(my frame of reference there

always was the "Archie" comic strip, I think) "fathead," "farthead," and

"dunderhead." The last one, I believe, grew out of "thunderhead," a

non-slang term for the clouds that roll in immediately ahead of a

thunderstorm, but somehow became synonymous with "chowderhead" et al.

  Of course, now we have "Thunderheads"--a self-generated label for fans

of the "Thursday Night Thunder" auto races on ESPN.

  It also struck me that "bighead" probably qualifies, as in "...gave him

the bighead" (and I think I've also heard "swellhead" for one with an

overblown confidence in oneself).

  Also, as I recall, the American media dubbed the Beatles "mopheads" when

they first arrived here in '64 (although I imagine the term predates that).

  Then there are "skinheads," the Nazi-type thugs of the '80s & '90s, but

I seem to remember the term being used for any bald guy prior to that (I

guess I qualify as a "semi-skinhead" at present or "soon-to-be-skinhead").

  And let us not forget "maidenhead," that virtually extinct specie in the

sexually liberated '90s, or our old childhood friend "Mr. Potatohead." And

his close relatives of a later period, the "Coneheads."

  And, finally, I seem to remember back in the '50s, when I was in high

school, the use of "peanuthead" for a person whose head seemed too small for

his/her body. (Of course, that could send us off into a sublist of "-brain"

words--i.e., "birdbrain," "peabrain," etc., but I don't know if the original

poster wants to go that far?)



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:26:18 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Rudy,

Of course you are right. Perhaps some of us slipped into saying 'derived

from' when we meant 'cognate with.'

Now we know the source of the 'wh'; a very late analogy, but I'm still not

sure about the vowel. I take your citation to be of 'hore' with a long

vowel(?) If so, it should be ModEng [u] as I have heard it in Northern

American use. Why is the majority usage [o]?

Dennis



     If English  whore  derives from Latin  karus , it must be as a loan-

 word, much too late for Grimm's Law. So then it should be  *core , which it

 ain't. So much for armchair etymologizing. In such questions, my sainted

 OE professor, Rudolph Willard, used to repair to the OED, which informs us

 that OE had  hore  (possibly derived from ON), and that the  wh  spelling is

 a 16-th century refinement (I would guess on the model of  whole ). But any

 connection with a Latin /k/ would have to be at a pre-Latin level, not a

 direct borrowing.

     --Rudy Troike (back in the fray again!)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 18:30:41 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



I saw the Green Bay Packers play today and heard their fans, them, and

Wisconsonites (Wisconsonians?) in general referred to as 'cheeseheads.' One

of the fans in the stands had a hat shaped like a big wedge of cheese

(apparently a Swiss). I hadn't thought about Alice in Dairyland for a long

time. I'm sure all you DAREers are used to all this.

Dennis

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



 A colleague of mine wanted to make sure I added "chowderhead" to the "-head"

 list. That then reminded me of "knucklehead,"(my frame of reference there

 always was the "Archie" comic strip, I think) "fathead," "farthead," and

 "dunderhead." The last one, I believe, grew out of "thunderhead," a

 non-slang term for the clouds that roll in immediately ahead of a

 thunderstorm, but somehow became synonymous with "chowderhead" et al.

   Of course, now we have "Thunderheads"--a self-generated label for fans

 of the "Thursday Night Thunder" auto races on ESPN.

   It also struck me that "bighead" probably qualifies, as in "...gave him

 the bighead" (and I think I've also heard "swellhead" for one with an

 overblown confidence in oneself).

   Also, as I recall, the American media dubbed the Beatles "mopheads" when

 they first arrived here in '64 (although I imagine the term predates that).

   Then there are "skinheads," the Nazi-type thugs of the '80s & '90s, but

 I seem to remember the term being used for any bald guy prior to that (I

 guess I qualify as a "semi-skinhead" at present or "soon-to-be-skinhead").

   And let us not forget "maidenhead," that virtually extinct specie in the

 sexually liberated '90s, or our old childhood friend "Mr. Potatohead." And

 his close relatives of a later period, the "Coneheads."

   And, finally, I seem to remember back in the '50s, when I was in high

 school, the use of "peanuthead" for a person whose head seemed too small for

 his/her body. (Of course, that could send us off into a sublist of "-brain"

 words--i.e., "birdbrain," "peabrain," etc., but I don't know if the original

 poster wants to go that far?)

 

 Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 16:43:25 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Dennis,

    The OED says the /u:/ is common in England, and attributes the

lowering (or retention thereof) to the influence of the -/r/, but considering

it a more "vulgar" pronunciation. Interesting, but not surprisingly, I've

never heard the /u:/ (or /uw/, as I prefer to write it).

    Rudy



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 17:55:38 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: talking heads



Talking heads, being a phrase rather than a compound, might not fit, but

I'll take it for now. Thank you for your help, Jerry.

BTW, I've been out of town for five days since I sent the -head request

last week. I'm VERY appreciative of all the responses. Thank you all

very much. Please feel free to continue to send them as you come across

them.

Greg Pulliam

humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:33:17 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



I was struck by the [hu:r] pronunciation in the rendition of the folk song

"Rolling Home (to Caledonia)" by the Scottish singer Archie Fisher. In

retrospect, I should probably have rendered that last [r] as a glide; anyway,

his vowel was definitely [u].  If you're wondering where that term comes into

the song, you're probably more familiar with one of the other versions, e.g.

"Rolling Home (to Old New England)", in which the singer sings of how "...our

sweethearts will be waiting/On that long-remembered shore". The Scottish

version, Fisher explains in the pre-song discussion, has always been "And our

whores [hu:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] will be waiting/On that long-remembered shore." Very poignant.



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 20:47:11 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



Dennis, obviously no great Packer-backer himself, writes,





 I saw the Green Bay Packers play today and heard their fans, them, and

 Wisconsonites (Wisconsonians?) in general referred to as 'cheeseheads.'

 One of the fans in the stands had a hat shaped like a big wedge of cheese

 (apparently a Swiss).



           Green Bay Packer fans have been proudly wearing those

cheeseheads (yes, it refers to the large yellow object itself as well to the

wearers, and may well encompass all Wisconsinites--not Wisconsonians or

Wisconsonites--but I think the team itself is not known by that moniker) for

some years now, but it was only last week when the cheesehead performed its

first life-saving mission. A fan was returning home from the game in a

private plane which began losing power, and he propped his cheesehead between

himself and whichever hard object he was to encounter on his speedy way down.

I forget the details, but he swears he'll never leave home without one now.



Larry (wondering if that was really how they invented head cheese)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:36:07 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



Jim Ague asked about 'receipt' as a 'ceit' form; yes, I counted it that way,

since the

spelling is simply an etymological "correction".

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:36:52 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



Simon & Shuster seem to have overlooked the words with 'ficient'/'ficience'.

 The American Heritage Online Dictionary lists as many 'cie' base forms

(excluding plurals and affixed forms to free stems) as 'cei' forms.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 21:14:26 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



The query about  receipt  reminded me that my great aunt used to say (and

write)  recipe  for that, and my mother would always comment when I noted

it that "a lot of people used to use that, but  receipt  is the more 'modern'

form." Has anybody else run into that usage?

    --Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Dec 1995 22:35:25 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: -head



At 5:06 PM 12/3/95 -0500, Jerry Miller wrote:



   Also, as I recall, the American media dubbed the Beatles "mopheads" when

 they first arrived here in '64 (although I imagine the term predates that).



I think it was "moptops," actually, though I was only in first grade then

and could be wrong.



Kate catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 1995 to 3 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 22 messages totalling 556 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. CHEESEHEADS

 2. -head (6)

 3. I before E

 4. Slow response to postings

 5. On Wisconsin! (4)

 6. On Wisconsin (p.s.)

 7. ----  GREAT DEAL!!!: $295.00 - LIKE NEW CREDIT CARD TERMINAL WITH

   PRINTER!!!

 8. /w/ and /hw/

 9. So fun

 10. Familiar

 11. Bubblehead (3)

 12. CHEESEHEAD appears on Jay Leno show



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 00:04:50 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: CHEESEHEADS



Larry Horn writes:

 

  Dennis, obviously no great Packer-backer himself, writes,

 

Either that, or he's a fair-weather fan...



   I saw the Green Bay Packers play today and heard their fans, them, and

   Wisconsonites (Wisconsonians?) in general referred to as 'cheeseheads.'

   One of the fans in the stands had a hat shaped like a big wedge of cheese

   (apparently a Swiss).

 

            Green Bay Packer fans have been proudly wearing those

  cheeseheads (yes, it refers to the large yellow object itself as well to the

  wearers, and may well encompass all Wisconsinites--not Wisconsonians or

  Wisconsonites--but I think the team itself is not known by that moniker) for

  some years now, but it was only last week when the cheesehead performed its

  first life-saving mission. A fan was returning home from the game in a

  private plane which began losing power, and he propped his cheesehead between

  himself and whichever hard object he was to encounter on his speedy way down.

  I forget the details, but he swears he'll never leave home without one now.

 

I should have known that if anyone was going to beat me to posting this

it would be Larry. Anyhoo, this "face-saving" ability of the cheesehead was

widely reported last week, and should do wonders for the sales of such things

at the Milwaukee airport and museum.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 02:08:41 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



Kate,



Ditto on "moptops". I was four at the time, but the recent Beatles

anthology reminded me of the term.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Katherine Catmull wrote:



  At 5:06 PM 12/3/95 -0500, Jerry Miller wrote:

 

     Also, as I recall, the American media dubbed the Beatles "mopheads" when

   they first arrived here in '64 (although I imagine the term predates that).

 

  I think it was "moptops," actually, though I was only in first grade then

  and could be wrong.

 

  Kate catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 06:44:20 -0500

From:  Charity Stafford  cls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLD.STD.COM 

Subject: Re: I before E



  The query about  receipt  reminded me that my great aunt used to say (and

  write)  recipe  for that, and my mother would always comment when I noted

  it that "a lot of people used to use that, but  receipt  is the more

  'modern' form." Has anybody else run into that usage?

      --Rudy Troike



Hmm. I've heard of the opposite usage - "receipt" used for

"recipe" - and understood it to be very old-fashioned.



Charity



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:35:48 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



While we are on Wisconsin (sorry about the -son spellings), have other

forced residents of the state noticed a funny syllable division there? My

divisions are very clearly 'wis-con-sin,' but I could swear to the fact

that nearly every Wisconsinite (there, Larry!) I've met divides it as

'wi-scon-sin.' The phonological motivation for this seems weak, but I

wonder if there is not some generalization lurking under it.



Dennis (not so clearly a nonPackerbacker) Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot,msu.edu 



 Dennis, obviously no great Packer-backer himself, writes,

 

 

  I saw the Green Bay Packers play today and heard their fans, them, and

  Wisconsonites (Wisconsonians?) in general referred to as 'cheeseheads.'

  One of the fans in the stands had a hat shaped like a big wedge of cheese

  (apparently a Swiss).

 

            Green Bay Packer fans have been proudly wearing those

 cheeseheads (yes, it refers to the large yellow object itself as well to the

 wearers, and may well encompass all Wisconsinites--not Wisconsonians or

 Wisconsonites--but I think the team itself is not known by that moniker) for

 some years now, but it was only last week when the cheesehead performed its

 first life-saving mission. A fan was returning home from the game in a

 private plane which began losing power, and he propped his cheesehead between

 himself and whichever hard object he was to encounter on his speedy way down.

 I forget the details, but he swears he'll never leave home without one now.

 

 Larry (wondering if that was really how they invented head cheese)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:57:01 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



When I moved to Wisconsin from Iowa and began teaching high school at

Verona (just outside of Madison) my 5th hour sophomore class took me

in hand. One afternoon, I said, "So, is there is anything else anyone

wants to say before we finish with Of Mice And Men" and the designated

spokesperson said, "Well, yes. There is." The whole class looked around

furtively, and then the speaker said, "Look, we like you a lot, but

you don't say the name of the state right and it's driving us crazy."

They then proceeded to try to get me to change my /kan/ for /k0n/ (open

"o".

But what I noticed then, and after, is Dennis Preston's observation:

wi-scon-sin [wI sk0n sIn~s[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n].



I have since moved to Fort Wayne, IN, and now my students tell me I

sound "like a Minnesota Lutheran". If my parents knew, they would first

die and then roll in their graves.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:37:23 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



Dennis wonders,



 While we are on Wisconsin (sorry about the -son spellings), have other

 forced residents of the state noticed a funny syllable division there? My

 divisions are very clearly 'wis-con-sin,' but I could swear to the fact

 that nearly every Wisconsinite (there, Larry!) I've met divides it as

 'wi-scon-sin.' The phonological motivation for this seems weak, but I

 wonder if there is not some generalization lurking under it.

_____________________________

While I'm not a Wisconsinite myself, I did live there

for four years, but I can't now (if I ever could) come up with the relevant

memories. Presumably the "c" would be less aspirated if Dennis is right than

if the dictionary is; but then there seems to be some inconsistency in the

latter: my Webster's gives "mis.take" in bold but (correctly) m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-STEYK in

the pronunciation guide, where clearly there's been a shift of the [s] to the

stressed syllable, deaspirating the [t] and opacifying the word-formation

(mistake =/= mis + take, as opposed to e.g. 'mistime').

   For the example under consideration, the crucial minimal pair would

be (he said, donning his cheesehead in lieu of flak jacket):

    WisfuckinCONsin  vs.  WifuckinSCONsin

but, as predicted by the theoretical literature, both are a lot less like

likely that counterparts with the appropriate stress pattern, e.g.

    MassafuckinCHUsetts

    MinnefuckinSOta

    AlafuckinBAma

--although not QUITE so unlikely as

    Michifuckingan.



Larry



P.S. On the spelling, Dennis was no doubt thinking of "esconson", 'a jamb

shaft in the inside arris of a window jamb'. A natural mi-stake.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 08:43:22 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Slow response to postings



  Is it only me, or are the postings to ADS getting delayed two - three days?

  On other lists, I do a check mail to verify about 45 seconds after doing a

  post, and usually get a copy of my e-mail.

 

  yoroshiku

  Benjamin Barrett





I'll get this message about thirty seconds from now.



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 09:54:12 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



I suppose I'm obliged to point out that Packer fans are not the only

cheeseheads in Wisconsin; the term also refers to fans of the UW-Green Bay

men's basketball team. The UWGB pep band wore cheeseheads to our first NCAA

Division I tournament appearance and have worn them at subsequent appearances

in NCAA tournament games. Sportscasters covering UWGB's play against the likes

of Syracuse and California also used "cheesehead" to refer to UWGB fans.



The mascot of UWGB is the phoenix, which produces its own curiosities, since

sportswriters don't know what to make of the team name (e. g., phoenixes?).

Locally, the usual collective reference is "the phoenix" with plural verb

forms: "the UWGB Phoenix are hoping . . ." So far, I have not heard the

singular back-formation */finIk/ as in one */finIk/ two /finIks/.



I'll add "bubblehead" to the list of -head words. However, a bubblehead is not

a person; it's a type of dry fly in which deer hair is tied forward over the

hook eye and then pulled back and tied down, forming a "bubble" of deer hair

around the forward 1/4 of the hook shank. The resulting fly floats on the

surface, and its large head creates a fish-attracting disturbance which

twitched.



DWL



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:14:29 EST

From:  flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: On Wisconsin!



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 04-Dec-1995 01:14pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Beverly Flanigan              Dept: Linguistics

     FLANIGAN                 Tel No:



Subject: On Wisconsin!





  As a Minnesotan, and a (lapsed) Lutheran at that, I've always said

  "wi-scon-sin," as do my Wisconsin relatives and two recent graduate

  students from that state. Hence my surprise (on the NP only) when an

  interviewee in "American Tongues" said that "people from Wis-con-sin

  all sound like Norwegians." But, unlike Beth, I never heard an open

  'o' in the middle syllable (only [kan]), even though I and my

  generation of Minnesotans still distinguish between 'ah' and 'aw'.

  BTW, since the name is from an American Indian language, perhaps

  someone knows whether the original had an initial consonant cluster in

  the second syllable or, as Larry Horn suggests, the [s] has shifted to

  the stressed syllable.



  On my way to checking out the state name in my (old) Webster's New

  World (which divides the syllables between 's' and 'c'), I came across

  "whore," which is etymologized as "ME & AS 'hore'; ON 'hora'; for

  the wh- sp., cf. 'whole'; akin to G. 'hure'; IE base *qa-, to like, be

  fond of, desire, seen also in L. 'carus,' dear...orig. prob. a

  euphemism" -- all of which would seem to support Rudy Troike's

  pre-Latin hypothesis with spelling analogy.







Received: 04-Dec-1995 01:14pm



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:23:40 EST

From:  flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: On Wisconsin (p.s.)



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 04-Dec-1995 01:23pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Beverly Flanigan              Dept: Linguistics

     FLANIGAN                 Tel No:



Subject: On Wisconsin (p.s.)





  I realized just after sending my first "On Wisconsin" note that I had

  neglected to sign my name (for the benefit of those not receiving our

  ridiculously splashy O.U. header). I'll add it now to justify my digs

  at both Norwegians and Lutherans:

                    Beverly OLSON Flanigan







Received: 04-Dec-1995 01:23pm



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 10:41:07 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995 flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU wrote:

 

 

    As a Minnesotan, and a (lapsed) Lutheran at that, I've always said

    "wi-scon-sin," as do my Wisconsin relatives and two recent graduate

    students from that state. Hence my surprise (on the NP only) when an

    interviewee in "American Tongues" said that "people from Wis-con-sin

    all sound like Norwegians." But, unlike Beth, I never heard an open

    'o' in the middle syllable (only [kan]), even though I and my

    generation of Minnesotans still distinguish between 'ah' and 'aw'.

    BTW, since the name is from an American Indian language, perhaps

    someone knows whether the original had an initial consonant cluster in

    the second syllable or, as Larry Horn suggests, the [s] has shifted to

    the stressed syllable.

 



As a West Coaster studying in Madison, I was immediately struck by the

difference between the locals' and my pronunciation of "Wisconsin",

principally by the different syllable division. (I've always found it a

great example for enabling students to "hear" juncture.) But

an open o was definitely not part of it. Rather, the locals' /a/ was

slightly fronted and raised, and nasalized, in comparison to my

own.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 12:12:28 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



Continuing the -head discussion...Donald Larmouth wrote:



  I'll add "bubblehead" to the list of -head words. However, a bubblehead is not

  a person



He then goes on to discuss "bubblehead" as some kind of fishing lure

(sorry if I'm not using the correct terminology, I don't know anything

about fishing!).



I disagree, though, with his statement that a "bubblehead" isn't used to

describe a person. I know I've heard it used in this context before. As

an example: in "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley (or was it Glenn Frey -- I

always mix up those ex-Eagles), he sings about the "bubbleheaded bleached

blonde" on the news, doesn't he? I suppose in this context it's

adjectival, but take my word for it, I've heard it used as a noun, at

least in the St. Louis, Missouri area. It means roughly the same as

"airhead".



Laurie Bowman

Department of Linguistics

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:43:30 -0500

From:  "Kevin Jay Lipsitz, President"  krazykev[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KJL.COM 

Subject: ----  GREAT DEAL!!!: $295.00 - LIKE NEW CREDIT CARD TERMINAL WITH

     PRINTER!!!



Could you new or expanding business use an (extra) credit card terminal for

your new or busy location?



We have upgraded our processing software equipment during our recent office

expansion and have the following for sale:



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condition, with a *1 yr. warranty* from the refurbishing company. Can

easily be re-programmed by your bank or processor with your merchant

account number and dialing info. (we paid $800.00 originally).

-Verifone 250 Printer to go with the Zon Jr. XL, in perfect, clean, working

condition. (we paid $800.00 when new).

-17 rolls of NCR carbonless 2-copy paper for the printer ($68.00 value).

-23 new Verifone-brand ribbons for the printer ($230.00 value).



We paid over $1900.00 for the above.  First $295.00, or best offer, takes

everything listed above.



For more info, please contact us at:    krazykev[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kjl.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 13:52:03 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English"  E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Rudy:



Re:

  Interesting, but not surprisingly, I've

 never heard the /u:/ (or /uw/, as I prefer to write it).

    Rudy



 Have you ever seen the "dialectal" spelling  hoor  which I always assumed

represented /u:/?



Suzanne



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 14:02:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: So fun



A friend of mine who grew up in Napa, CA and Billings, MT used the

expression "so fun." She had also spent time in Chicago as a young

adult. I sounded odd to me, because I had always said, "So much fun"

in Ridgewood, Quuens, which is part of the so-called outer boroughs of

New York City. I got used to her expression. There's nothing

gramatically wrong with it: "so much fun" merely has an extra

adjective in the expression.



Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 18:14:55 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Familiar



I've brought this up in my class w/Jim Stalker at MSU and didn't seem to get

anyone to agree with me so I'll ask ADS. I have been hearing for some time

now the word familiar pronounced Framiler or more Framilyer. Has anyone esle

heard this. The reason I bring it up is that I've just heard it again today

in two seperate speakers. Both seemed to be around 30 or so if that means

anything.



Just curious.



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:05:46 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bubblehead



In reaching for the arcane ("bubblehead" as a type of fishing fly), I blew

right past the obvious--I too have heard the expression "bubbleheaded," and

probably also bubblehead, in reference to an empty-headed person, as I'm sure

many others have.



E-mail in haste, repent at leisure.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:14:21 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



Like, Peter, I am also a west-coaster who has been in the Midwest (Still

there). I was very surprised the first time I heard Wi-skan-s[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n, not

really believing my ears that the syllables could be divided in that

fashion. But this division is alive and well in the Upper Midwest.

Also, the vowel in the 2nd syllable, as Peter stated, is fronted and

nasalised.

FWIW, My wife's name is Holly and she complains that Minnesotans call her

[haeli]. A bit of an exageration, but not too far off. This fronted,

nasalised pronunciation seems to be age graded (with younger people

seeming to have the more fronted/nasalised version) and, I believe,

urban, altho I have not made enough tapes (I did a small study of this

feature in the summer of '94) of ruralites to make any conclusive statement.

 Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 21:06:55 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Bubblehead



    I'll support Laurie Bowman's recollection of "bubblehead" = "airhead".

Memory is one of the advantages (or disadvantages) of long experience: the

term arose in the early 60s (when I first experienced it at UT-Austin, though

it may have started earlier while I was out out the country) for the young

college females, mostly sorority types still following the genderized pursuit

of an MRS. degree (this was before the flower children took over, remember,

and Woodstock was not in the national vocabulary), who wore "bouffant" hair-

dos, which is obviously also the source of the transfer to fishing lures.

At least in Texas, the wearers of these large, rounded, puffed-up hairdos,

which resembled a bubble, were predominantly blonde, at least on the surface.

I have spent many hours lecturing to classrooms full of such hairdos, and

can confirm that most of their wearers were not committed to a life of the

intellect, alas. Thus the pejorative term that arose, which might have had

a touch of class conflict or envy attached to it. It is conceivable that it

arose from a disdainful professoriate, but since when has this group ever

contributed a term to popular usage?

    Rudy Troike (counting the days until I cease to be English Dept. head)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:05:55 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



 FWIW, My wife's name is Holly and she complains that Minnesotans call her

 [haeli]. A bit of an exageration, but not too far off. This fronted,

 nasalised pronunciation seems to be age graded (with younger people

 seeming to have the more fronted/nasalised version) and, I believe,

 urban, altho I have not made enough tapes (I did a small study of this

 feature in the summer of '94) of ruralites to make any conclusive

 statement.



Ah yes, the Great Northern Vowel Shift. I've heard Bill Labov talk about it

for years, but my most memorable encounter was still my first, back in the

early 1960's in my undergraduate days at the University of

RIAAAENNN-ch'ster (that's supposed to be a highish front very nasalized

vowel)--the university/city east of Buffalo, where I spent one puzzling but

ultimately enlightening hour on a blind date with a young woman from the area

who seemed to be talking about salads and couldn't figure out what \I/ was

saying, since she meant SALads, you know, as opposed to liquids...



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:45:46 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Bubblehead



 

      I'll support Laurie Bowman's recollection of "bubblehead" = "airhead".

  Memory is one of the advantages (or disadvantages) of long experience: the

  term arose in the early 60s (when I first experienced it at UT-Austin, though

  it may have started earlier while I was out out the country) for the young

  college females, mostly sorority types still following the genderized pursuit

  of an MRS. degree.....



The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang cites

_bubblehead_ from 1952 on.



Actually, sorry, that's not quite right. _Bubble-headed_ from 1952

on, _bubblehead_ from 1959; we combine them in the same entry.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Dec 1995 23:50:37 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: CHEESEHEAD appears on Jay Leno show



The guy who survived the plane crash by donning a cheesehead appeared on Jay

Leno tonight in casts, wheelchair and cheesehead.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 1995 to 4 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 26 messages totalling 577 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Great Northern Vowel Shi** (2)

 2. On Wisconsin! (3)

 3. lugen (5)

 4. Bubblehead (2)

 5. Familiar

 6. I before E

 7. -head

 8. Pop & Soda (4)

 9. Language and Intelligence (4)

 10. 1995 Phrase of the year

 11. Bublehead

 12. pop and soda



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 00:35:23 -0500

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Great Northern Vowel Shi**



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



   FWIW, My wife's name is Holly and she complains that Minnesotans call her

   [haeli]. A bit of an exageration, but not too far off. This fronted,

   nasalised pronunciation seems to be age graded (with younger people

   seeming to have the more fronted/nasalised version) and, I believe,

   urban, altho I have not made enough tapes (I did a small study of this

   feature in the summer of '94) of ruralites to make any conclusive

   statement.

 

  Ah yes, the Great Northern Vowel Shift. I've heard Bill Labov talk about it

  for years, but my most memorable encounter was still my first, back in the

  early 1960's in my undergraduate days at the University of

  RIAAAENNN-ch'ster (that's supposed to be a highish front very nasalized

  vowel)--the university/city east of Buffalo, where I spent one puzzling but

  ultimately enlightening hour on a blind date with a young woman from the area

  who seemed to be talking about salads and couldn't figure out what \I/ was

  saying, since she meant SALads, you know, as opposed to liquids...

 

  --Larry

 

Now we have returned to a significant topic for consideration, pinheads

and bubbleheads to be forgiven. What is it with all of this vowel

shift shit? I think this list needs to engage itself in a serious

discussion of Labov's hypothesis, rather than bowing down to that

name as some god or something. He was simply somebody's student who

lucked into a good situation, and so forth.



I was sitting in the airport in Lexington, waiting for a plane and I

eavesdropped on the perfect illustration of Mister Bill's famed

NVS (read Northern Vowel Shift), when i heard this yankee guy say to some

other guy, I lost my wallet in the bar last night. The concept of

shift notwithstanding, the sentence is perfectly diagnostic for the

crucial low vowels under consideration. Guess what went where. Perhaps

I'll save it for some revelatory paper at some important conference.



All of this rot and nonsense about vowel shifting buys into some major

and yet unstated assumptions about the phonoloogy/phonetics of spoken

Americn English. To say that a shift has occurred assumed that all

speakers at some point participated in some basic system. I would

suggest that some pronunciation patterns reflect not a change from this

system but a persistence of some variety historically that the generative

agenda, into which Mr. Bill buys wholsale, is not willing to acknowledge.



I would include your friends, Larry, in this group.



Terry

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 07:39:16 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



Aw shucks Larry. You think you had it tough. Imagine me arriving late at

night in Medicine, Wi - SKAHN - sin from Loovuhl, KY some time about 1963.

I went into a small market, half asleep, and picked up only a few things.

At the checkout counter, a clerk asked if I wanted these few things in a

'bIuhg.' What the hell could she be talking ab out? My fist contact with

the Northern Cities Shift (no 'Great' in its title, by the way). I was

double-confused, in fact, since, even after retrieving the lexical item

'bag,' I was aware that I was more used to 'sack' (of course) for

grocieries and used 'bag' much more frequently for a testicles-container.

Can we have some more stories of phonological cross-dialectal

misunderstanding? I love 'em.

Dennis

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



  FWIW, My wife's name is Holly and she complains that Minnesotans call her

  [haeli]. A bit of an exageration, but not too far off. This fronted,

  nasalised pronunciation seems to be age graded (with younger people

  seeming to have the more fronted/nasalised version) and, I believe,

  urban, altho I have not made enough tapes (I did a small study of this

  feature in the summer of '94) of ruralites to make any conclusive

  statement.

 

 Ah yes, the Great Northern Vowel Shift. I've heard Bill Labov talk about it

 for years, but my most memorable encounter was still my first, back in the

 early 1960's in my undergraduate days at the University of

 RIAAAENNN-ch'ster (that's supposed to be a highish front very nasalized

 vowel)--the university/city east of Buffalo, where I spent one puzzling but

 ultimately enlightening hour on a blind date with a young woman from the area

 who seemed to be talking about salads and couldn't figure out what \I/ was

 saying, since she meant SALads, you know, as opposed to liquids...

 

 --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:19:51 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



Fronting of /a/ as Fritz describes it is part of the Northern Cities

Shift, as described in Labov's latest book which I suddenly can't

remember the title of--its at myh house right now.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:27:20 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: lugen



Is anyone familiar with the term "lugen" to mean 'a person of Lithuanian

descent'? It seems to be especially common in Chicago. Tom Cresswell, do

you know it? Virginia McDavid? If you're familiar with the word, please

let me know when and where you heard it, and whether it's neutral or

pejorative. Thanks.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:50:53 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: lugen



 Is anyone familiar with the term "lugen" to mean 'a person of Lithuanian

 descent'? It seems to be especially common in Chicago.



FWIW, I've never heard the term.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:05:06 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: lugen



 Is anyone familiar with the term "lugen" to mean 'a person of Lithuanian

 descent'? It seems to be especially common in Chicago.



I'd never heard it and the American Heritage doesn't list it, but the

Shogakukan/Random House English-Japanese dictionary gives it as

slang/derogatory for EITHER a Lithuanian OR a person of Lithuanian descent.

It is spelled "lugan" in this dictionary. No etymology is given.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:22:35 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Bubblehead



The "bouffant" hairdo, or "beehive", as I call it is undergoing a resurgence

here in Memphis, but among young black women. Some of them are carrying truly

amazing sculpted creations atop their heads. The association with bubblehead

doesn't seem to hold, though. ONe of my best students has one.

I'll ask her what she calls it.

         Ellen JOhnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:33:49 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Great Northern Vowel Shi**



On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, TERRY IRONS wrote:



  Now we have returned to a significant topic for consideration, pinheads

  and bubbleheads to be forgiven. What is it with all of this vowel

  shift shit? I think this list needs to engage itself in a serious

  discussion of Labov's hypothesis, rather than bowing down to that

  name as some god or something. He was simply somebody's student who

  lucked into a good situation, and so forth.

 

  I was sitting in the airport in Lexington, waiting for a plane and I

  eavesdropped on the perfect illustration of Mister Bill's famed

  NVS (read Northern Vowel Shift), when i heard this yankee guy say to some

  other guy, I lost my wallet in the bar last night. The concept of

  shift notwithstanding, the sentence is perfectly diagnostic for the

  crucial low vowels under consideration. Guess what went where. Perhaps

  I'll save it for some revelatory paper at some important conference.

 

  All of this rot and nonsense about vowel shifting buys into some major

  and yet unstated assumptions about the phonoloogy/phonetics of spoken

  Americn English. To say that a shift has occurred assumed that all

  speakers at some point participated in some basic system. I would

  suggest that some pronunciation patterns reflect not a change from this

  system but a persistence of some variety historically that the generative

  agenda, into which Mr. Bill buys wholsale, is not willing to acknowledge.

 

I'm not quite sure where you're going, Terry. Are you trying to say that

these vowel shifts do not exhibit the neogrammarian inevitability that L

and hsi students seems to ascribe to them? I would probably agree. But

I don't quite understand the intensity of your rhetoric.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 09:45:08 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Familiar



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Kevin A. wrote:



  I've brought this up in my class w/Jim Stalker at MSU and didn't seem to get

  anyone to agree with me so I'll ask ADS. I have been hearing for some time

  now the word familiar pronounced Framiler or more Framilyer. Has anyone esle

  heard this. The reason I bring it up is that I've just heard it again today

  in two seperate speakers. Both seemed to be around 30 or so if that means

  anything.

 

  Just curious.

 

  Asher

 



I'm "framilyer" with this phenomenon in the southern Illinois area.



Laurie Bowman

Dept. of Linguistics

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:08:06 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



Continuing with the cross-cultural misunderstandings...

I'm originally from the St. Louis, MO area (actually, Southern Illinois,

but close enough) (and incidentally, it's NOT St. Looie to St.

Louisans!). Back there we say "soda" for the carbonated beverage. Up in

Chicago it's a "pop". Then I came out to Tucson. I was on campus and I

went up to one of those traveling deli carts to buy something to drink.

On the sign it said: Can of pop -- 50 cents. Soda -- 75 cents. I asked

the guy what the difference was between "pop" and "soda" and he looked at

me like I'd lost my mind. So what is the difference? I'm assuming that

if the beverage comes in a can or bottle, it's a pop, but if it comes

out of a fountain, it's a soda??? Or was this just a fluke? I haven't

lived here long enough to figure it out yet. I guess this is a pretty

recherche subject, but I've always been confused

about this. Incidentally, when New Englanders order a soda, don't they

expect ice cream to come in it? (This is what I've been told, anyway.)

Anyone have a fairly simple analysis of this phenomenon?



Laurie Bowman

Dept. of Linguistics

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 11:37:33 PST

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: lugen



Joan,



It seems to me that I heard the term all through my childhood and early years

on the south side of Chicago. The large US Steel plant (now defunct) in

South Chicago attracted large numbers of the successive waves of immigration

to Chicago--First the Irish and Germans, then the central Europeans, referred

to by even themselves as Polacks (pace Ann Landers), and Hunkies.



For non-members of those groups, Hunkies was the all-embracing term, even

though it referred directly only to those of Hungarian birth. But I knew

personally Serbs and Croats who used those terms in self-reference.



I do not remember that there was a sizeable group of Lithuanian immigrants in

the mills (They seem to have settled on the southwest side--perhaps first

working in the stock yards), but the term was in use (My mental spelling of

the term, by the way, which I do not remember ever having seen in print is

the phonetically more specific "Loogan"). Like the other terms mentioned

above and the term Dago, it was probably also self-applied, just as Nigger is

among some black speakers. But, like Nigger, the terms Polack, Hunky, and

Loogan and similar terms were or could be pejorative when used by non-group

members.



The general principle seems to be that such terms may be self-applied in

informal circumstances but can become offensive or condescending when used by

others. Whether or not they become so depends on, among other factors, the

degree of familiarity between the speaker and the person so designated and

the tone of voice and context in which uttered. .



Hope that this inconclusive report is of some use. See you, I hope, in

Chicago.  .



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 10:36:23 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: I before E



Re: recipe/recipt



In the fifties, I told one of my teachers that my grandmother said that recipe

and recipt meant the same thing. She said that my grandmother was mistaken.



Barbara Hill Hudson (I was in class taught by R. Troike at Howard long ago)

BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:40:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: Re: lugen



Re: Lugen:



Ten years ago, several of my undergraduates reported Lugen

as a 'common' term in South Chicago for, as you say, a

person of Lithuanian extraction. They also reported

Bohunk as a more general term. At that time, they didn't

claim more than the mildest derogation associated with

either term, although of the two Lugan was the more

neutral. Of course, these were non-Lugans doing the

reporting.

Also possibly of interest, and coming from the same

'etnic' neighborhoods, was the pronunciation of HOOD

with the vowel of rude; hoods were the neighborhood

toughs and tough wannabes.



Edward Callary

Northern Illinois University



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:11:06 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart  LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bubblehead



 Ellen Johnson wrote:

 The "bouffant" hairdo, or "beehive", as I call it is undergoing a

 resurgence here in Memphis, but among young black women. Some of them

 are carrying truly amazing sculpted creations atop their heads.



My husband and I have noticed the same thing, although I never thought of

them as "bouffant" hairdos. I'm not sure what your student calls them,

but we call them poodlecuts.



***********************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

Dept. of English (300 Park Hall)   Phone:  (706) 542-2260

University of Georgia        Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205        E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

***********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 15:24:19 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: -head



Laurie,



I remember this reference, too. And it was Henley, with a really

irritating organ riff repeating and repeating in the background.



Bob



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Laurie M Bowman wrote:



  I disagree, though, with his statement that a "bubblehead" isn't used to

  describe a person. I know I've heard it used in this context before. As

  an example: in "Dirty Laundry" by Don Henley (or was it Glenn Frey -- I

  always mix up those ex-Eagles), he sings about the "bubbleheaded bleached

  blonde" on the news, doesn't he? I suppose in this context it's

  adjectival, but take my word for it, I've heard it used as a noun, at

  least in the St. Louis, Missouri area. It means roughly the same as

  "airhead".



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:37:58 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Pop & Soda



  went up to one of those traveling deli carts to buy something to drink.

  On the sign it said: Can of pop -- 50 cents. Soda -- 75 cents. I asked

  the guy what the difference was between "pop" and "soda" and he looked at

  me like I'd lost my mind. So what is the difference?



I wish you had asked him to show them both to you. The words are

interchangable in the western states I've lived in.



  Laurie Bowman





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:13:41 -0500

From:  STEPHANIE RAE WELLS  srwell01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Language and Intelligence



I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 16:32:52 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pop & Soda



   went up to one of those traveling deli carts to buy something to drink.

   On the sign it said: Can of pop -- 50 cents. Soda -- 75 cents. I asked

   the guy what the difference was between "pop" and "soda" and he looked at

   me like I'd lost my mind. So what is the difference?

 

 I wish you had asked him to show them both to you. The words are

 interchangable in the western states I've lived in.

 

My experience here in Indiana is that the two terms are interchangable, with

"pop" far more common than "soda" (the only person I can remember who always

said "soda" was an old news editor of mine). I think the distinction on the

sign you saw may be between "pop" (as in Coca-Cola, 7-Up, etc.) and "soda"

(the "yuppie" drinks like "New York Seltzer," etc.), but I could be wrong.



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 13:37:02 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: 1995 Phrase of the year



Seen at student union building on bulletin board of items for sale:

"1977 Buick Skylark

 Engine good

 Tranny ok

*cosmetically beatup* ..."



Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu (aka University of a Thousand Years)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 14:18:20 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Pop & Soda



My poor kids, now full-grown adults, because they lived all over the country

when they were little (2 through 6), today use the word soda-pop when asking or

ordering the same.



When we were living in Boston, one of our girls at age 2 learned the word

"tonic" to mean that canned or bottled liquid refreshment. Then, while 3, she

lived for a year in Wichita Falls, TX and picked up a good Texas drawl from the

preschool locals. It was quite cute, at least to her parents, to hear her ask,

"Ahh wahnt a tahnik."



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 18:28:44 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Bublehead



It was Don Henley who used it in "Dirty Laundry" I think about 1982.



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:18:12 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pop & Soda



  My poor kids, now full-grown adults, because they lived all over the country

  when they were little (2 through 6), today use the word soda-pop when asking or

  ordering the same.

  -- Jim



I grew up saying "soda-pop" without moving from state to state.

That's just what we called it in Los Angeles. I have always

considered "soda" and "pop" abbreviations.



Cheers,



Tom







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:29:35 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



  I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

  a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?



Some aspects of a person's intelligence are certainly linguistic.

What is meant by "the way they speak"? Are you referring to speech

abnormalities, idiolect, breadth of vocabulary, delivery dynamincs,

frequency of oral communication, inflections, . . . , or . . . ?

Clearly, there is no dialect/intelligence connection. But the fact

that we all think in language suggests some correlation between our

language and our intelligence.



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 20:01:45 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Tom Uharriet said:

"But the fact that we all think in language suggests some correlation

between our language and our intelligence."



Why would you presume that "we all think in language?" Except for those

conscious internal monologues/self-dialogues, how would we know? That

there may be cultural constructs common to thought and language both does

not require that thought be in language and so bear the form and

restrictions of language.



Ron Rabin



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:03:25 -0500

From:  Virginia Clark  vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



At 04:13 PM 12/5/95 -0500, Stephanie Rae Wells wrote:

 I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

 a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

 

    Sure--most of my students at the beginning of my Structure of the

English Language course and, alas, a few of them even at the end of the

semester.



 Virginia Clark



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:57:35 -0500

From:  Virginia Clark  vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: pop and soda



    Some of my students use pop; some use soda; almost none uses soda

pop; but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any non-alcoholic

carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered that? Tonic, which

students from around Boston did use when I first started teaching (centuries

ago), seems now to mean the liquid to which one adds gin and a slice or

wedge of lemon.



 Virginia Clark



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 1995 to 5 Dec 1995

**********************************************







There are 68 messages totalling 1719 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Dope (was pop and soda)

 2. On Wisconsin! (2)

 3. pop and soda (12)

 4. hood

 5. Language and Intelligence (18)

 6. Fwd: Re: Language and Intelligence

 7. 95 words

 8. name's the same (7)

 9. [fle:g] (4)

 10. WORD OF THE YEAR

 11. non-linguistic thinking (7)

 12. /w/ and /hw/

 13. lugen

 14. Intelligent Language

 15. pop and soda/coke

 16. Pop & Soda

 17. AUTOMAT

 18. Re(2): toboggan

 19. Time clock (3)

 20. Vocabulary size of historians (2)

 21. receipt



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:10:11 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Dope (was pop and soda)



Virginia Clark said:



Some of my students use pop; some use soda; almost none uses soda

pop; but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any non-alcoholic

carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered that?



Yes, almost everyone I know uses "coke" for all non-a carb bevs.

Except, of course, those East Tennesseans and others who use "dope." The

term is alive and well in rural areas, including the residential areas of

Knoxville settled by rural residents moving to the city, mostly for

work.



One day at our Fellini Kroger's (we really call it that!), I walked up to a

checkstand. Someone hadput groceries down tthen gone back for something

else. As I waited, I saw a woman walking back with some large (2-liter,

at least) Cokes. As she approached me, she said apologetically,

"I went to get me some more brown dopes."



There are also orange dopes, orange dopers, etc.



Bethany

 dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:04:10 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



On Tue, 5 Dec 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



  'bIuhg.'

I've never heard this pronunciation for 'bag' here in MN. The usual

pronunciation here is [be:g] (It's a scream to hear a bunch of Minnesota

kids say the the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the [fle:g]!). When my oldest

son was in first grade, one of his spelling words was 'bag'. When the

teacher, a MN-sotan, pronounced the word, he naturally wrote  b-e-g , which

is what he heard her say. So, his perfect score was dashed because of

dialect interference.

What's really interesting, tho, is that when my wife and I asked the

teacher about this at parent/teacher conference, the teacher could hear

no difference between her pronunciation [beg] and ours [baeg]!

Fritz Juengling

 What the hell could she be talking ab out? My fist contact with

  the Northern Cities Shift (no 'Great' in its title, by the way). I was

  double-confused, in fact, since, even after retrieving the lexical item

  'bag,' I was aware that I was more used to 'sack' (of course) for

  grocieries and used 'bag' much more frequently for a testicles-container.

  Can we have some more stories of phonological cross-dialectal

  misunderstanding? I love 'em.

  Dennis

   preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 

 

    FWIW, My wife's name is Holly and she complains that Minnesotans call her

    [haeli]. A bit of an exageration, but not too far off. This fronted,

    nasalised pronunciation seems to be age graded (with younger people

    seeming to have the more fronted/nasalised version) and, I believe,

    urban, altho I have not made enough tapes (I did a small study of this

    feature in the summer of '94) of ruralites to make any conclusive

    statement.

   

   Ah yes, the Great Northern Vowel Shift. I've heard Bill Labov talk about it

   for years, but my most memorable encounter was still my first, back in the

   early 1960's in my undergraduate days at the University of

   RIAAAENNN-ch'ster (that's supposed to be a highish front very nasalized

   vowel)--the university/city east of Buffalo, where I spent one puzzling but

   ultimately enlightening hour on a blind date with a young woman from the area

   who seemed to be talking about salads and couldn't figure out what \I/ was

   saying, since she meant SALads, you know, as opposed to liquids...

   

   --Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:04:53 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



    Virginia Clark's report on the demise of "tonic" is a devastating

blow (especially when coupled with the loss of "Chesterfield") to the

linguistic lore of all our American English courses. Can anybody else in

the Boston area confirm this? Say it ain't so!

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:15:13 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: On Wisconsin!



I just thought of an exchange that I heard at the food store a while

back. I was standing in line behind a fellow who was not a MN-sotan.

Upon checking all the food items, the cashier asked "Wanna beg for

it?" To which he replied somewhat sarcastically "Why should I beg for

it, I just bought it!"

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Dec 1995 23:15:21 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King"  jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



    Some of my students use pop; some use soda; almost none uses soda

   pop; but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any

   non-alcoholic carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered

   that?



When I was growing up in Southern Oklahoma in 1960's and 70's, "coke"

was clearly the most common generic term for a flavored carbonated

beverage. I was familiar with the terms "soft drink" and "soda pop" and

"pop" ("soda" alone was unflavored carbonated water, best mixed with

Scotch, or an ice cream soda), but seldom if ever heared them used in

ordinary conversation. The generic term was used in "You wanna go get a

coke?" or "Let me get you a coke" or, to a restaurant or drive-in

employee, "What kind of cokes do you have?" None of these were deemed

to be references to any particular product of the Coca-Cola Company.



I thought this usage was well attested.



JRKing



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:12:29 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: hood



 Also possibly of interest, and coming from the same

 'etnic' neighborhoods, was the pronunciation of HOOD

 with the vowel of rude; hoods were the neighborhood

 toughs and tough wannabes.

 

Growing up in NYC, hoods were as you describe them - but it was pronounced

the normal way - i.e., rhyming with good rather than food.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:12:34 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

 I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

 a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?



My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

uneducated.)



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 01:37:32 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



    We Texans likewise have to concentrate on hearing a really heavy,

thick Northern Cities accent -- if it's even comprehensible, e.g. bag:beg.

Vocabulary size is a reliable measure of language development in children,

but it is historically characteristic of reductionist thinking in psychology

to equate vocabulary with intelligence. It is a good indicator of size of

vocabulary, which is presumably an index of knowledge of language and of

cultural knowledge as indexed by vocabulary, at least in certain domains.

But there is a clear circularity there, and to make it indicative of

intelligence, unless one is very restrictive in identifying this "intelligence"

as tautologically equivalent to knowledge of language, is an unwarranted leap.

    Happily, many in psychology have moved beyond this misidentification

to recognize a number of different types of "intelligence", not all of which

(indeed most) are indexed by linguistic (i.e., vocabulary) knowledge.

    Even within the realm traditionally considered "intelligence", there

are clearly differential abilities to think/conceptualize/comprehend abstract

matters. Mathematicians and physicists belong at the top of this pile,

with linguists somewhat below, and historians and archeologists somewhere

below that. However, a historian may have a larger vocabulary than a linguist,

and both have larger vocabularies than a mathematician. This is not to suggest

that the relationship is an inverse one, just that there is no necessary

relationship.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:40:33 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



 At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

  I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

  a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

 

 My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

 dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

 amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

 when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

 have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

 uneducated.)

 

 Rima

 



amongst?....uneducated?



Hmmn?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 06:04:31 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



  but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any non-alcoholic

  carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered that?



I have encountered it in my own speech and the speech of most people around

me all of my life.



  Tonic, which

  students from around Boston did use when I first started teaching (centuries

  ago), seems now to mean the liquid to which one adds gin and a slice or

  wedge of lemon.



To me tonic=what you drink gin with; soda=either what you drink scotch with

or an ice-cream drink; pop=the sound a whip makes.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:54:45 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



We all believe that you can get to a person's inteligence by noting the way

they speak:



Spose you ask the following:

'A puppy is to a dawg jes lahk a kitty is to a (choose one):

    a. cat

    b. poodle

    c. hawk

    d. skyscraper



People who say 'Ah reckon hit's a 'a,'' or 'Dat ansuh be 'a'' are (if the

test is a good one, and I do not promise that I have done all the necessary

research to determine that it is for all English-speaking populations and

ages) intelligent. You can tell by the language they use; they give the

right answer.

People who say 'In my personal opinion, the correct answer is 'b' are

dumber than home-made shit. You can tell from the language they use. It

contains the wrong answer.

We don't have to write 'The Logic of Nonstandard English' all over again, do we?

Dennis Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 





 I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

 a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:03:58 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



In message Wed, 6 Dec 1995 00:12:34 -0800,

 Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET  writes:



  My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

  dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

  amongst our best indicators.



  I hear of psychologists using the vocabulary to assess the level of

cognitive development. Is this the same thing as the vocabulary being

"among the best indicators" of intelligence? I thought these are different

things!



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:12:58 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Rima,

My apologies to your husband the psychologist, but he seems to have been

only half-educated by modern linguistics; he should go all they way.

In what way could vocabulary measure intelligence (if by intelligence we

mean something really crass like 'the ability to figure things out')? If

you lack some words, you simply lack them. For example, when you enter a

new technical field, you clearly do not have the vocabulary for that

endeavor. Would you say that after you had acquired it you were more

'intelligent.' Surely not. What I am sure your well-meaning huisband means

is that we (i.e., psychologists) have developed certain traditional

'benchmarks' which guide us in the evaluation of intelligence. We assume,

therefore, that the acquisition of a certain breadth of vocabulary

(nonspecialized, of course) indicates a certain 'normal' development. While

this might be a relatively effective device for a homogeneous population

(and I doubt that it is really effective there), in the midst of diversity,

it is almost as poopy as dialect prejudice.

On that latter matter, I like your list of those dialects which are 'really

heavy, thick' - 'Southern/NY/Oklahoman/etc.'

If I told you how really heavy, thik Inland Northern, especially urban

(e.g., Michigan ) dialects sound to me (and make me think of their

speakers), I would run out of the state that feeds me.

Of course, now I know that it is not true that everybody north of

Indianapolis-Columbus (roughly) will not give you the time of day and

cheat you if they can (surely the mildest of my reactions to Inland

Northern), but it has required linguistic discipline to arrive at that

conclusion. Like Virgiknia, I ofetn despair of so-called 'attitude

changing' priograms, but I think we should keep trying. There is positive

evidence as well.

Dennis

(who has learned to keep a straight face while Inland Northern speakers

talk) Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu,.edu 





 At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

  I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

  a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

 

 My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

 dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

 amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

 when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

 have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

 uneducated.)

 

 Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:14:58 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Rudy,

I ran my fingers before I read your contribhution. You have said much

better what I tried to get at. It clearly ain't at vocabulary.

Dennis



     We Texans likewise have to concentrate on hearing a really heavy,

 thick Northern Cities accent -- if it's even comprehensible, e.g. bag:beg.

 Vocabulary size is a reliable measure of language development in children,

 but it is historically characteristic of reductionist thinking in psychology

 to equate vocabulary with intelligence. It is a good indicator of size of

 vocabulary, which is presumably an index of knowledge of language and of

 cultural knowledge as indexed by vocabulary, at least in certain domains.

 But there is a clear circularity there, and to make it indicative of

 intelligence, unless one is very restrictive in identifying this "intelligence"

 as tautologically equivalent to knowledge of language, is an unwarranted leap.

     Happily, many in psychology have moved beyond this misidentification

 to recognize a number of different types of "intelligence", not all of which

 (indeed most) are indexed by linguistic (i.e., vocabulary) knowledge.

     Even within the realm traditionally considered "intelligence", there

 are clearly differential abilities to think/conceptualize/comprehend abstract

 matters. Mathematicians and physicists belong at the top of this pile,

 with linguists somewhat below, and historians and archeologists somewhere

 below that. However, a historian may have a larger vocabulary than a linguist,

 and both have larger vocabularies than a mathematician. This is not to suggest

 that the relationship is an inverse one, just that there is no necessary

 relationship.

     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:43:21 -0600

From:  Alan R Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



      Some of my students use pop; some use soda; almost none uses soda

  pop; but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any non-alcoholic

  carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered that? Tonic, which

  students from around Boston did use when I first started teaching (centuries

  ago), seems now to mean the liquid to which one adds gin and a slice or

  wedge of lemon.

 

  Virginia Clark

Coke is the standard term in Middle Tennessee for any non-alcoholic carbonated

beverage. It's all I ever hear, although I still use "soft drink" from my

youth in Florida.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan R. Slotkin

Professor of English

Box 5053

Tennessee Technological University

Cookeville, TN 38505



Phone: 615-372-3262

FAX: 615-372-6142

e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:51:58 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



One of my students (from Alabama) reports that she used to work for her

father at a convenience store. He had told her to expect a delivery from

the Coke man. Later, when he asked whether the delivery had been made,

she replied that only the RC man had come. Even though the student and

her father both used Coke to mean any soft drink, there was some

confusion in this instance.

Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:00:09 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Fwd: Re: Language and Intelligence



I recall the disgust with which my father talked of measuring "intelligence"

with what he characterized as vocabulary tests. He told me about Leonard

Bloomfield's success in raising his childrens' IQs in a very short time by

simply drilling them in vocabulary.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:03:28 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: 95 words



DECEMBER IS HERE. In just a very few weeks we will be assembling to choose

the word(s) of the year. Send your candidates today! The list is growing.

REMEMBER: You can nominate as many as you like! If you wish to remain

anonymous to the listserv, send your candidates directly to me.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:41:01 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Rudy Troike worries,



     Virginia Clark's report on the demise of "tonic" is a devastating

 blow (especially when coupled with the loss of "Chesterfield") to the

 linguistic lore of all our American English courses. Can anybody else in

 the Boston area confirm this? Say it ain't so!



I can't help with chesterfields, but I can reassure Rudy and anyone else con-

cerned that the reports of the demise of superordinate "tonic" are at least

somewhat exaggerated. South Station in Boston has a large menu board over its

main snack bar at which it lists "coffee", "iced tea", "milk", and "tonics"

(I seem to recall an itemized sublist under the last, featuring the usual colas

and root beers and the like). Not only that, but "cabinets" are alive and well

in Rhode Island for 'milk shakes'. At least in Misquamicut (which, if you're

there, you should pronounce with the "s" in the second syllable, as in Wi-

sconsin), although it may have been partly to impress the tourists.

  I grew up drinking "soda", and was nonplussed when I first encountered "pop"

and "soda pop" after leaving New York/Long Island for Raaach'st'r.

  Would generic coke speakers ask for a Coke coke when they want to be

specific about what kind of coke they want?



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:36:51 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



We don't all think in language. I know this because I know people who

don't--one says that he thinks in relationships that resemble a flow

chart, and that the reason he often has little to say in group conversations

is that he has to translate everything to and from English, which slows

him down.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 07:02:29 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



 ... both used Coke to mean any soft drink, there was some ...



I use "coke" to mean any cola-based soft drink (coca cola, pepsi cola, RC), but

I would never use it to refer to *any* soft drink (coke    7-up). I'm amazed

that anyone would say coke, when they mean 7-up.



What gripes me everytime, is to go into a fast food restaurant, order their

equivalent of a "happy-meal", ask for a coke to go with it, and be asked in

return, "Is Pepsi OK?" Of course Pepsi's OK, it's the same thing isn't it?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:15:16 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Re "Coke coke": I drink only Diet Cokes among the various soft drinks, so

I always ask for a ""diet coke." Occasionally, of course, freq. at TAco

Bell, which serves only that PC stuff that I can't stand to drink, I am

asked if a "diet Pepsi" is ok. It is not, and so I save a buck by

having instead (free) water with lemon. Speaking of which -- that is is

"in" drink among non-a drinkers here -- is it elsewhere?



Only occasionally is one served a glass of water with a side of little

plastic package full of lemon juice.



Bethany

 dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:18:05 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Ron,

Outside of language, how would you measure one's ability to

conceptualize abstrats? I am not saying that we ONLY think through

language. I am saying we all think in language.

Tom



  Tom Uharriet said:

  "But the fact that we all think in language suggests some correlation

  between our language and our intelligence."

 

  Why would you presume that "we all think in language?" Except for those

  conscious internal monologues/self-dialogues, how would we know? That

  there may be cultural constructs common to thought and language both does

  not require that thought be in language and so bear the form and

  restrictions of language.

 

  Ron Rabin

 



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:48:35 CST

From:  Lisa Pogoff  POGOFFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US 

Subject: Re: name's the same



   'bIuhg.'

 I've never heard this pronunciation for 'bag' here in MN. The usual

 pronunciation here is [be:g] (It's a scream to hear a bunch of Minnesota

 kids say the the "Pledge of Allegiance" to the [fle:g]!). When my oldest

 son was in first grade, one of his spelling words was 'bag'. When the

 teacher, a MN-sotan, pronounced the word, he naturally wrote  b-e-g , which

 is what he heard her say. So, his perfect score was dashed because of

 dialect interference.

 What's really interesting, tho, is that when my wife and I asked the

 teacher about this at parent/teacher conference, the teacher could hear

 no difference between her pronunciation [beg] and ours [baeg]!

 Fritz Juengling



Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:46:13 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Afterthought on cross-dialectal confusion and Bostonian tonic:

  It wouldn't surprise me if someone grew up thinking that TAW-nic was a

cover term for soft drinks, while TAH-nic is quinine water you put in your gin.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:51:06 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



  We don't all think in language. I know this because I know people who

  don't--one says that he thinks in relationships that resemble a flow

  chart, and that the reason he often has little to say in group conversations

  is that he has to translate everything to and from English, which slows

  him down.

 

  Vicki Rosenzweig





How does he reason with abstracts?



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 09:56:06 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: [fle:g]



Hm. I grew up in NW Illinois and we always pledged to the [fle:g].

I never thot of that as regional. Fritz, is [flaeg] normal for you?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:54:12 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: WORD OF THE YEAR



For a word of the year, I nominate "noeticus."





------- Forwarded Message Follows -------



From:      bchrmer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]midwest.net

Date sent:   Tue, 5 Dec 1995 17:14:59 +0000

Subject:    Carolyn Myss, homo noeticus





Has anyone here heard of Carolyn Myss and her theories about the

evolution of homo sapiens into a new, more aware species she calls

homo noeticus?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:39:11 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



Music strikes me as thought--but not language. If you can whistle a tune

you can think without language. Just pucker up your lips and blow.



  Outside of language, how would you measure one's ability to

  conceptualize abstrats? I am not saying that we ONLY think through

  language. I am saying we all think in language.

  Tom

 

    Tom Uharriet said:

    "But the fact that we all think in language suggests some correlation

    between our language and our intelligence."

   

    Why would you presume that "we all think in language?" Except for those

    conscious internal monologues/self-dialogues, how would we know? That

    there may be cultural constructs common to thought and language both does

    not require that thought be in language and so bear the form and

    restrictions of language.

   

    Ron Rabin

   

 

  Tom Uharriet

  utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:41:54 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



Re: don/dawn:



Here in Knoxville, I teach an intro course in Ling. In the SPring, I

had a "Don" and a "Dawn" in the same class. My students never knew which I

was saying.



Bethany

 dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 08:59:55 -0800

From:  Mary Bucholtz  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



   However, a historian may have a larger vocabulary than a linguist,

   and both have larger vocabularies than a mathematician.



I'm not convinced this is true; in fact I'd be surprised if there were

any significant differences in vocabulary size by discipline. Has any

research been done on this?



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:14:14 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: non-linguistic thinking



He reasons quite well with abstractions (and is a computer programmer

by profession). As for "how," I'm really not sure--since he's not

thinking in English and I am, it's hard for him to explain this to me.

The most noticeable sign of how he's thinking is that if he says

something odd, and I ask him to repeat it, he will repeat it word for

word, because he's already done the translating. For example, he once

said he wanted a ham sandwich on roast beef (meaning he wanted a ham

on rye), and when I said something like "run that by again" he

cheerfully did so. The tricky thing for a lot of us, and maybe particularly

linguists, to remember is that English is a system of abstract reasoning,

Chinese is another, and so on--but that not all systems of abstract

reasoning are languages. (It's possible that someone could construct

a grammar of what my friend is using--but I don't think anyone yet has.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:25:23 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



1. I don't think you can say that "English is a system of abstract reasoning."

You might be able to say, perhaps contrastively, that culture furnishes its

members a system of abstract reasoning. But it would be hard to claim

that all of culture was in the language, even if you included all the

rules of use for the language in the culture.



2. What can be said of the question "How do you think of abstracts, or

think abstractly?" I take this as an epistemological problem, as I

take this whole thread. My answer is I don't know. I became a behaviorist

so that this answer would be part of the catechism, that is, it is a

proper answer to a kind of question. Insofar as a given language may or

may not furnish a vocabulary item for a particular abstraction does not

recommend that I have that abstraction in my thinking or what I "code it"

(a metaphor) in the form language may have [*that* I "code it"].

I don't know. If you do know, how?



Ron Rabin



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:32:09 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



     However, a historian may have a larger vocabulary than a

linguist,      and both have larger vocabularies than a mathematician.

 

  I'm not convinced this is true; in fact I'd be surprised if there were

  any significant differences in vocabulary size by discipline. Has any

  research been done on this?

 

  Mary Bucholtz



Every discipline has its own secret code. I have learned a lot of

buzz-words that teachers know, but I don't speak orthodontia.

Mathematicians are no exception. If they were to start over-using

their specialized vocabulary around me, I would probably cry out for

"Engilsh Only."











Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:45:31 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



  1. I don't think you can say that "English is a system of abstract

reasoning."

  You might be able to say, perhaps contrastively, that culture furnishes its

  members a system of abstract reasoning. But it would be hard to claim

  that all of culture was in the language, even if you included all the

  rules of use for the language in the culture.

 

  2. What can be said of the question "How do you think of abstracts, or

  think abstractly?" I take this as an epistemological problem, as I

  take this whole thread. My answer is I don't know. I became a behaviorist

  so that this answer would be part of the catechism, that is, it is a

  proper answer to a kind of question. Insofar as a given language may or

  may not furnish a vocabulary item for a particular abstraction does not

  recommend that I have that abstraction in my thinking or what I "code it"

  (a metaphor) in the form language may have [*that* I "code it"].

  I don't know. If you do know, how?

 

  Ron Rabin



Thank you, Ron. Your post (above) is the most interesting one I've

seen here in quite some time. A friend of mine was translating

Western ideas into Korean. When he came to a bit about feelings, as

opposed to logical thought, he was stumped. He told me they have no

word for it. Therefore, as far as he could discern, it was not a part

of their shared awareness. I believe that by having that word, our

ability to understand its abstract meaning is greater.







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:59:23 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



Thanks Vicki,

C, Basic, Paschal (sp?), etc. are all computer languages. Does he

think in them or are they also stricly translations of something else?

Tom





  He reasons quite well with abstractions (and is a computer

programmer

  by profession). As for "how," I'm really not sure--since he's not

  thinking in English and I am, it's hard for him to explain this to me.

  The most noticeable sign of how he's thinking is that if he says

  something odd, and I ask him to repeat it, he will repeat it word for

  word, because he's already done the translating. For example, he once

  said he wanted a ham sandwich on roast beef (meaning he wanted a ham

  on rye), and when I said something like "run that by again" he

  cheerfully did so. The tricky thing for a lot of us, and maybe particularly

  linguists, to remember is that English is a system of abstract reasoning,

  Chinese is another, and so on--but that not all systems of abstract

  reasoning are languages. (It's possible that someone could construct

  a grammar of what my friend is using--but I don't think anyone yet has.)

 

  Vicki Rosenzweig





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:07:05 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



When I first came to Wisconsin in 1970, I often assigned the Pledge of

Allegiance as a phonetics exercise in my introductory linguistics course, since

students knew it by heart and weren't as likely to be distracted by spelling.

In those early years, the students almost always transcribed "flag" with a low

front unrounded [ae] 'ash' vowel. In the late 1970's and early 1980's, however,

the transcription [fle:g] showed up several times. In a typical class of 80-90

students, it occurred about 10-15% of the time. The last time I used this

exercise (1993) almost half the students transcribed [fle:g]. As a qualifier, I

usually have a significant number of returning adult students (around 30%),

although that percentage has declined somewhat since 1990. Since these are all

beginning students, I wouldn't put too much stock in their transcriptions of

their own pronunciation, but it's an indication at least that the low front

unrounded vowel is probably rising among younger speakers.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:31:06 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



   Would generic coke speakers ask for a Coke coke when they want to be

  specific about what kind of coke they want?



Nahh, that would sound silly! I think "co'-cola" would be specific enough.

Or, if the brand is an afterthought: "Would you get me a coke? Just a

regular Coke would be best."



Having discovered the hard way that even in Texas not everyone

understands what "coke" means--and unable to use my native Utah "pop"

after too many years in the south--I find myself using awkward locutions

like "could you get me some kinda diet coke thing, whatever they have, it

doesn't need to be brown?" with people I don't know well. Life would be

easier though less interesting if we could get together on this.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:39:18 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Speaking of which, where does 'hore-hound (drops)' fit into this, if at all?



On Sun, 3 Dec 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



  Rudy,

  Of course you are right. Perhaps some of us slipped into saying 'derived

  from' when we meant 'cognate with.'

  Now we know the source of the 'wh'; a very late analogy, but I'm still not

  sure about the vowel. I take your citation to be of 'hore' with a long

  vowel(?) If so, it should be ModEng [u] as I have heard it in Northern

  American use. Why is the majority usage [o]?

  Dennis

 

       If English  whore  derives from Latin  karus , it must be as a loan-

   word, much too late for Grimm's Law. So then it should be  *core , which it

   ain't. So much for armchair etymologizing. In such questions, my sainted

   OE professor, Rudolph Willard, used to repair to the OED, which informs us

   that OE had  hore  (possibly derived from ON), and that the  wh  spelling is

   a 16-th century refinement (I would guess on the model of  whole ). But any

   connection with a Latin /k/ would have to be at a pre-Latin level, not a

   direct borrowing.

       --Rudy Troike (back in the fray again!)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:39:18 EST

From:  Bruce Southard  ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU 

Subject: Re: lugen



I believe that in the late sixties or early seventies Lee Pederson

published an article entitled something like "Terms of Abuse in

Metropolitan Chicago"; I do know that in the article he listed lugen as

an abuse term for Lithuanians.



Regards,



Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:47:04 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Intelligent Language



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Dec-1995 01:46pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Intelligent Language





There ARE some language-based phenomena which do correlate with intelligence:

humor for one. The ability to play on words, allude to fossilized speech  

history or literature or popular culture, rhetorical skill combined with wit and

wisdom, these are associated with intelligence. Of course, this is verbal

intelligence, and there are others: along with Linguistic Intelligence Howard

Gardner  Frames of Mind  lists Musical Intelligence, Logical-Mathematical

Intelligence, Spatial Intelligence, Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence and Personal

Intelligences in his 1983 book. My 11 yr old's school has "gone over" to the

theory of multiple intelligences in a big but pop psychology way. But that's

another thread. The point to the question appears to be is, is linguistic

intelligence primary, or a predictor of "general intelligence," or somehow

privileged? The answer--within our culture--is yes, but that various prejudices

(such as the pronunciation of  ANN  as [i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n] with [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] as schwa) override our

judgments. But, taking away judgments of social status, we all have to admit

that schools as society's proxy reward verbal ability and stigmatize those

without excellence in that area. In the same way, in the church choir as a kid

I was told to move my mouth but not sing because they needed boys in the choir

but I was tone deaf and couldn't sing on key. In terms of musical intelligence,

I'm a dud, but believe it or not it has not affected by social status one iota.

Likewise, I was told I was tall enough for basketball but too uncoordinated to

consider it; my tenure decision, fortunately, did not consider my low score on

Bodily-Kinesthetic Intelligence. You get the point: we may object to the

privileged status of verbal ability (ability, NOT social status inferred from

pronunciation or grammar), but it is used, and not just by psychologists.

(Although I suspect that Harvard Ed School Prof. Gardner is closer to what

'psychologists' believe than our straw man!)



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs







Received: 06-Dec-1995 01:46pm



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:47:52 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that "coke" is used in the South as

a generic term for any carbonated beverage, whether it be Coke, Pepsi,

7-Up, or whatever. Can anyone from the South confirm or deny this?



Weirdly enough, also in the Southern Illinois region, you often hear

"white soda", meaning 7-Up or Sprite. Is this common elsewhere?



On Tue, 5

Dec 1995, Virginia Clark wrote:



      Some of my students use pop; some use soda; almost none uses soda

  pop; but a lot of them tell me that they use "coke" for any non-alcoholic

  carbonated beverage. Have any of you encountered that? Tonic, which

  students from around Boston did use when I first started teaching (centuries

  ago), seems now to mean the liquid to which one adds gin and a slice or

  wedge of lemon.

 

  Virginia Clark

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:55:59 -0500

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



Didn't Jerry Katz publish a book titled LANGUAGE OF THOUGHT in the

mid-1970s? I think the point was that the language of thought need not be

like the surface form of any verbal language. Nor would I expect it to be

(all) verbal in the first place. We may also want to remember that verbal

language is an articulate system and not all thought is articulate either.

Here is another fact we should bear in mind: I do not know to what extent

we may expect infants to have verbal language (though they come equipped

with Universal Grammar, or a Bioprogram, whatever suits you) but they THINK

and solve problems in responding to various challenges! Those of you who

think in English or Chinese or whatever verbal language only, beware of

disadvantages you would have. For one think you would be too slow for many

things, even if you could use shortcuts/"routines".

Sali.





******************************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene            s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago           312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

****************************************************************************

**



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 13:56:45 -0500

From:  "M. Katherine MacKinnon"  eslmkmx[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GSUSGI2.GSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda/coke



A lifelong Southerner from Atlanta, GA, with family (Mom's) in rural SC

and (Papa's) in small town AL: yes, a "coke," or more properly, a

"Co-cola," is what we all were offered upon entering a friend's house,

whatever the selection might include (Pepsi, Nehi Grape, Rootbeer,

Fresca, Orange Crush....). Even here in the Big City I hear my classmates

and coworkers who have been here for more than a year or so use "coke"

generically.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 12:23:41 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pop & Soda



I think that here in Boulder, CO, "pop" and "soda pop" are more common

than "soda." "Soda" seems to still mark people as being from the east.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:50:57 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: AUTOMAT



On Fri, 24 Nov 1995, Allan M. Siegal wrote:



      Yes, and apologies. I had the timing wrong in my earlier post. The last

  Automat, at Lexington and 42d, closed in 1990. The Horn & Hardart Company

  has since changed its name, too. I discovered my date error soon after

  posting, but neglected to correct myself. Thanks.

  --

  Allan M. Siegal

  Assistant Managing Editor

  The New York Times

 

On the early history of automats, see George Chauncey's WONDERFUL book,

GAY NEW YORK: GENDER, URBAN CULTURE, AND THE MAKING OF THE GAY MALE

WORLD, 1890-1940. The automats, by the way (he indicates), were popular

meeting places for gay men in the 1920s and 1930s.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 11:52:29 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



      Even within the realm traditionally considered "intelligence", there

  are clearly differential abilities to think/conceptualize/comprehend abstract

  matters. Mathematicians and physicists belong at the top of this pile,

  with linguists somewhat below, and historians and archeologists somewhere

  below that.



Wow, what a bizarre notion! What you are characterizing as higher and

more abstract is simply that mathematicians and physicists think in the

languages of mathematics, which are extremely low-context languages that

focus on relationships rather than things. Other languages that focus on

relationships rather than things are, most notably, those of Native

America -- except in a high-context fashion and as a daily spoken

language; otherwise, the analogy here is quite fit. Which thereby, of

course, puts a Native child of 7 or 8 above mathematicians and

physicists, and perhaps raises some anthropological linguists fluent in

Native American languages to the level of math/physics cream.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:46:23 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



No, he doesn't think in C (or IBM Assembler, either). He thinks in

structured relationships. This seems very odd to me, but it seems to

work; I have no reason to think he's lying, or deceived, about this;

and he reaches conclusions that make sense to me and other people

who do think in words.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:01:23 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:



  Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

  the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

  Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?

 

I am equally surprised when I hear people make a distinction between the

two names. So, yes, there are other parts of the country where the names

are pronounced the same. I'm an Oregonian, BTW.

Fritz



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:02:39 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Re(2): toboggan



On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  I'm pretty sure that I heard Toboggan in reference to a knit cap before

  I learned that it also meant some kind of sled-type thing. In Mississippi

  the only sled-type things we were familiar with were trays dragged out of

  kitchens at the first sign of ice or snow. Even now I don't think I've

  ever seen a real sled except in pictures. But we had some great home-made

  skate-cars, which I guess could be categorized as "sled-type things." We

  used them for racing down hills on streets. It's a miracle that any of us

  survived to adulthood.



The first time I saw TOBOGGAN 'hat' was in the Durham, NC, HERALD (about

1968). They reported that somebody had robbed a convenience store with "a

toboggan pulled down over his face." Being from Iowa, I did not know

TOBOGGAN in any sense other than 'sled', and so the image of the

bank-robbing practices which came to my mind were rather bizarre.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:06:49 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:



  Hm. I grew up in NW Illinois and we always pledged to the [fle:g].

  I never thot of that as regional. Fritz, is [flaeg] normal for you?



Yes. I have talked with many non-MNsotans about this and it seems to be

one of the first things they notice about MN speech (it seems to stand

out even more than the famous MN /o:/!). Of course, I haven't done any

study on this, but just casual conversations.

Fritz

    Tim Frazer

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:11:20 CST

From:  Lisa Pogoff  POGOFFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US 

Subject: Re: name's the same



 Date sent:   Wed, 6 Dec 1995 14:01:23 -0600

 Send reply to: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

 From:      Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

 Subject:    Re: name's the same

 To:       Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 



 On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:

 

   Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

   the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

   Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?

  

 I am equally surprised when I hear people make a distinction between the

 two names. So, yes, there are other parts of the country where the names

 are pronounced the same. I'm an Oregonian, BTW.

 Fritz



BTW, I come from Chicago, and "Dawn" rhymes with "lawn" and "Don"

rhymes with "on." I assume those words aren't pronounced the same

way around the country.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:33:12 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 10:52:16 MST

From: Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu 

To: Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



On 6 Dec 1995 Tom Unharriet wrote:

 On 6 Dec 1995 Ron Butters wrote:

   Music strikes me as thought--but not language. If you can whistle a tune

   you can think without language. Just pucker up your lips and blow.



 But who has lived long enough to know how to whistle without also, at

 times, thinking in language? My mind can do many things without

 language (e.g. tell the heart to pump). But that does not mean that

 I do not also think in language. Find someone who has aquired a

 language without ever thinking in one.



I guess I didn't undestand the question.



I thought the question was, "Is thought without language possible?" My

answer: sure--take music, for example.



This is different from the question, "Is language possible without

thought," which seems to have only one obvious (and therefore not very

interesting) answer (yours). By the way, music is rather more complicated

than the "mind" "tell[ing] the heart to pump." Music is complex,

rule-governed, volitional, and need not necessarily have physical

expression. Like language. But not language.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:10:14 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



 As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that "coke" is used in the South as

 a generic term for any carbonated beverage, whether it be Coke, Pepsi,

 7-Up, or whatever. Can anyone from the South confirm or deny this?

 

 Weirdly enough, also in the Southern Illinois region, you often hear

 "white soda", meaning 7-Up or Sprite. Is this common elsewhere?



There ya go. I thought of that immediately

when someone mentioned the "coke" thing.



I grew up using "soda," "pop," "sodapop,"

and "coke" interchangeably. To specify 7-up

or Sprite, I used the term "white soda."

To specify Coke or Pepsi, RC or whatever,

I said "dark soda."



But the funny thing is, I'd prefer Dr. Pepper

to Pepsi, Mountain Dew to Coke, IBC Root Beer

to 7-Up, etc. So I usually wind up specifying

the name of the beverage I want. So far I've not

been able to order a Mountain Dew by asking for

"yellow sodapop."



And anyway, the sad fact is that not too many

fast-food chains are supplied IBC root beer, alas.





;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:16:32 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Time clock



I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."



Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.



What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.



The Tractors, btw, are from Oklahoma.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:35:30 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Vocabulary size of historians



Mary,

    My example was purely hypothetical. I know mathematicians who have

larger vocabularies than I do, and historians with smaller ones. My point

was simply that level of abstractness in thinking ability is independent

of vocabulary size. In general, I suspect that historians may have larger

vocabularies than linguists, especially syntacticians (among whom I include

myself when I am not doing ethnolinguistics and other interesting things),

simply because most historians probably read more broadly than most linguists.

Shakespeare had a larger vocabulary than any of us, probably, but he was no

Newton.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 16:36:18 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Time clock



You've obviously not had a job where you punch a time card upon arrival and

departure to verify the number of hours you'd get paid for. The machine that

marks the time on the card is a time clock. Some days I wish I had that kind

of job again (Not Really, I didn't mean it!) The advantage is you don't have

to drag home stacks of papers to grade on a daily basis (because they never get

graded the first few times you drag them home).



Ellen JOhnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu





 From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 6-DEC-1995 16:17:34.24

 Subj: Time clock

 

 I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

 by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."

 

 Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.

 

 What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

 those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.

 

 The Tractors, btw, are from Oklahoma.

 

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

 ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

 ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

 ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

 ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

 ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

 ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 17:22:44 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



  BTW, I come from Chicago, and "Dawn" rhymes with "lawn" and "Don"

  rhymes with "on." I assume those words aren't pronounced the same

  way around the country.



I take it that "on" doesn't rhyme with "lawn" for you? "Dawn" and "lawn"

and "on" rhyme for me. "Don" is different. "Don" rhymes with "con."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 15:25:23 -0800

From:  Mary Bucholtz  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Vocabulary size of historians



Rudy,



I agree that abstract thought and vocabulary are independent of each

other. I want to disjoin the two even further, however, and I

remain doubtful that vocabulary size can be predicted, even in

some partial way, on the basis of one's discipline. There is an intuitive

appeal to the idea, but because this topic brushes up against all kinds

of touchy issues like the measurement of intelligence--which was in fact

the origin of the thread--I'd want to see data before accepting

the suggestion that historians on the whole have a larger vocabulary than

syntacticians as a whole. For one thing, surely reading *deeply,* in a

very technical field, can enrich one's vocabulary just as much as reading

widely. (But that idea too would have to be tested.)



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:38:17 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Time clock



Kathleen wrote:  I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

 by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."

 

 Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.

 

 What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

 those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.

 

 The Tractors, btw, are from Oklahoma.

 

I assume it refers to the kind of machine at factories, etc., where workers

punch in and out with cards, upon which the times are stamped by the "time

clock." I've heard that usage quite a bit here (in Indiana) and elsewhere.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)

[speaking only for myself, who, happily, doesn't have to punch a time clock]



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 18:59:47 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



I sympathize with Lisa Pogoff, though she must never have taken a course

dealing with varieties of American English. This vowel merger is surely

one of the most dysfunctional in Modern English, and it behooves those of

us who make it to try to rescue the language from this pell-mell (pall-mall?)

rush to destruction. [Pardon the ambiguity -- the second "it" should read

"this distinction".]

    Speaking of ambiguity, Bethany, did your students have trouble with

"Don" vs. "Dawn" because you did not make the distinction or because they

didn't? Several years ago my wife hired a new secretary, and told me the

person's name was /dan/ (Muriel is from California, BTW), which I naturally

interpreted as "Don", and was puzzled because I had understood she was

interviewing a female for the job, and asked for a confirmation of this. When

it was given, my reaction was that it was the first time I had heard of a

woman named "Don". After some further confused interaction, she clarified that

the name was "Dawn". It's too bad we can't get in our time machine and go

back and straighten out that first child who failed to hear the distinction.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:06:23 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



I have the distinction between Don and Dawn. It is my students who do not make

the distinction and cannot hear it.



Bethany

 dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 

A well-educated Texan transplant



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:21:39 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



Tim,

    Howdy from the warm sunny Southwest, where the temp is around 80:

in writing [fle:g], are you indicating what I would write /fleyg/ (rhyming

with  plague ) or /flEg/? I always say /flaeg/, but my Southern friends

and relatives say /flaeyg/. /flEg/ (or [flE:g])would sound very Yankee to me.

    Rudy



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 19:55:51 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



It is surprising at this late date in the 20th century to have a discussion

among linguists taking place at such an unsophisticated level. Everyone who

hasn't should get in their time machines (courtesy a written form of the

language) and zip back to the 1920s or 1930s and read Edward Sapir. There is

a constant danger, even for linguists, to get trapped in the Eurocentric

view of language as composed of atomic things called "words", and to think

other peoples and cultures less sophisticated because they don't have "a word"

for something. For one thing, they may have many words for aspects of a

phenomenon, and think English speakers less capable of precise thought because

we bumble along with a single gross category. When we study European languages

in school, we are encouraged by the dictionary habit to think that word=word.

If you read Sapir, he will quickly disabuse you of such simplistic equations.

To "translate" to Navajo, for example, one often has to decompose an English

word into its semantic primitives, and then reassemble these in a totally

different way, sometimes combining elements which are distributed in other

discrete "words" in the English sentence. There is no verb "to throw" in

Navajo, for example. Does this mean that Navajos are incapable of thinking

abstractly of this action? No, it means that they have several verbs, each

referring to movement on the part of a differently shaped object, to which

a causative affix is attached, yielding "to cause a round object to move",

"to cause a long object to move", etc. Surely our thought processes are more

primitive in describing a scene by saying "John threw the ball", since "throw"

makes no distinction for the form of the object. Korean, of course, requires

its speakers to distinguish among 6 possible social levels, to which we

English speakers are hopelessly and slobbishly insensitive. We can't even

think about some of the topics which are of great moment in Korean culture.

So please, hasten to your bookshelves and read, or re-read, your Sapir.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:22:07 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



A former partner I had in a neighborhood bar hailed from Rochester, NY.

A steady customer we had was raised in L.A. (Lower Alabama.) My partner,

in his assertion of superior intelligence often asked him: "If you're so

smart, how come I can talk like you, but you can't talk like me?"



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



 Rima,

 My apologies to your husband the psychologist, but he seems to have been

 only half-educated by modern linguistics; he should go all they way.

 In what way could vocabulary measure intelligence (if by intelligence we

 mean something really crass like 'the ability to figure things out')? If

 you lack some words, you simply lack them. For example, when you enter a

 new technical field, you clearly do not have the vocabulary for that

 endeavor. Would you say that after you had acquired it you were more

 'intelligent.' Surely not. What I am sure your well-meaning huisband means

 is that we (i.e., psychologists) have developed certain traditional

 'benchmarks' which guide us in the evaluation of intelligence. We assume,

 therefore, that the acquisition of a certain breadth of vocabulary

 (nonspecialized, of course) indicates a certain 'normal' development. While

 this might be a relatively effective device for a homogeneous population

 (and I doubt that it is really effective there), in the midst of diversity,

 it is almost as poopy as dialect prejudice.

 On that latter matter, I like your list of those dialects which are 'really

 heavy, thick' - 'Southern/NY/Oklahoman/etc.'

 If I told you how really heavy, thik Inland Northern, especially urban

 (e.g., Michigan ) dialects sound to me (and make me think of their

 speakers), I would run out of the state that feeds me.

 Of course, now I know that it is not true that everybody north of

 Indianapolis-Columbus (roughly) will not give you the time of day and

 cheat you if they can (surely the mildest of my reactions to Inland

 Northern), but it has required linguistic discipline to arrive at that

 conclusion. Like Virgiknia, I ofetn despair of so-called 'attitude

 changing' priograms, but I think we should keep trying. There is positive

 evidence as well.

 Dennis

 (who has learned to keep a straight face while Inland Northern speakers

 talk) Preston

  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu,.edu 

 

 

  At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

   I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

   a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

  

  My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

  dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

  amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

  when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

  have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

  uneducated.)

  

  Rima

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:31:52 -0500

From:  Jeutonne Brewer  brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NR.INFI.NET 

Subject: receipt



I have heard my mother-in-law use "receipt" for "recipe" many times.

She often self-corrected her "receipt" to "recipe," sometimes immediately,

sometimes in the next sentence or two. In other words she recognized

"recipe" as the newer term. Another use I was fascinated to hear was

"het," as in "I het the water for you."



She lived in Arkansas all her life until she moved to NC to live with my

husband and me after she retired. Now 93 years old, she was in her 60s

when she made this move.



An afterword:

I have found this a strange note to write, one that like many other things

makes English tenses an interesting topic. I was "forced" to shift tense

in the first paragraph because I used to be able to hear her use

many interesting expressions. She is alive but not well and no longer

able to talk to us. I think a fascinating language and discourse topic concerns

what happens when (and if) the elderly lose their linguistic capability? I

just realized as I was writing this note that an equally interesting topic

is what happens in the speech/writing of the researcher who in an

ethnograpic sense shifts in and out of different contexts, time frames, and

linguistic as well as personal relationships. I have written about the first

topic

but not the second topic. Well, I have gotten way off the original topic for

this message.





**************************************************

* jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu           *

*   Department of English           *

*   University of North Carolina at Greensboro *

*   Greensboro, NC 17412            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu             *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fagan.uncg.edu            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nr.infi.net              *

**************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 20:46:17 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



Dan,

    Be careful about overgeneralizing about American Indian/Native

American languages. They are as different among themselves as English and

Chinese. One of the saddest facts about research on these languages is that

we have almost no studies on how children learn them (and most are going

fast and won't be around in another 30 years). Cheyenne, for example,

presents a daunting computational demand, which is in my experience

paralleled only in one South American language. But the last I heard, no

children were any longer learning Cheyenne, so we will never know how they

learned to master this amazing system. Whorf used to think that Hopi was

structured in a way that would conduce to quantum-math thinking, but

unfortunately there aren't many Hopi mathematicians.

    However, Barney Old Coyote once told me a wonderful story of how

he was once in a 3rd-grade classroom of mixed Crow and Anglo children, and

the teacher was doing a painful review of 1st-grade arithmetic with the

usual apples and oranges, and the Crow kids were struggling terribly, while

the Anglo kids were bored to death. He asked the teacher if he could inter-

vene for a few minutes, and asked the class how they would figure the odds

on a stick-ball game, given certain parameters. The Crow children started

jumping up and down with the right answers, and the Anglos were totally

flabbergasted. This of course involves some really high-level computation

which would ordinarily be considered beyond the cognitive abilities of

children of that age. I doubt very much that the structure of Crow had anything

to do with it, but certainly their cultural experience did.

    When I was a grad student, and excited about the intellectual

challenges of linguistics, I tried to convert many of my archeological (I

used to be an archeologist, among other things) and historian friends to

linguistics by getting them to take a course. Most found it much too

difficult to deal with, and went back to their potsherds and manuscripts.

I've yet to read anything in archeology or history which begins to compare

with the cognitive demands of an article on Government and Binding theory

..

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 22:55:41 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Language and Intelligence



I think that people who have no ability to speak might be considered dumb.



I am also struck by the fact that Stephen Hawking would be a rather bad

orator but he is in fact one of the most intelligent people of the 20th

century. So does his limited faciltiy limit his spirit or intelligence? Why

even ask - that question is what limits.



Asher



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 1995 to 6 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 44 messages totalling 1414 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pop and soda

 2. NEW COKE (2)

 3. Language and Intelligence (7)

 4. root beer preferences

 5. Time clock (5)

 6. name's the same (4)

 7. [fle:g] (6)

 8. Vocabulary & IQ (2)

 9. linguistic thinking

 10. receipt -Reply

 11. Re[2]: name's the same

 12. Perspective...(?) (3)

 13. can/can't (3)

 14. Labov (fwd) (4)

 15. vowel laxing

 16. sneakers -Reply

 17. Pepsi Jingle



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:01:19 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



 Rudy Troike said:

 

      Virginia Clark's report on the demise of "tonic" is a devastating

  blow (especially when coupled with the loss of "Chesterfield") to the

  linguistic lore of all our American English courses.



Larry Horn wrote:



   I grew up drinking "soda", and was nonplussed when I first encountered "pop"

 and "soda pop" after leaving New York/Long Island for Raaach'st'r.

   Would generic coke speakers ask for a Coke coke when they want to be

 specific about what kind of coke they want?



This discussion brought to mind a recreational drug using New England law

student,

probably a Yale student from Atlanta (where Co-cola was invented) who was so

cold he stopped reading Lord Coke long enough to sip a Coke, snort some coke

and shovel some coke into the boiler. Was he a dope? Did he drink a dope,

snort dope? Did he give himself a tonic? Is English a great language or what?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:01:21 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: NEW COKE



  ... both used Coke to mean any soft drink, there was some ...

 

 I use "coke" to mean any cola-based soft drink (coca cola, pepsi cola, RC), but

 I would never use it to refer to *any* soft drink (coke    7-up). I'm amazed

 that anyone would say coke, when they mean 7-up.

 

 What gripes me everytime, is to go into a fast food restaurant, order their

 equivalent of a "happy-meal", ask for a coke to go with it, and be asked in

 return, "Is Pepsi OK?" Of course Pepsi's OK, it's the same thing isn't it?

 

 -- Jim



NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO



As a member of the "Pepsi generation" (I grew up in the 50's), where we

heard the

jingle "Pepsi-Cola hits the spot..." (someone pleease finish it), there was a

considerable war between the two. Coke was the original beverage and was

discovered

by a Georgian who sold the formula (which then contained cocaine and

henceforth led

to all the references to "dope" since the original formula was based upon

coca leaves

and cola nuts) to Asa Candler, an Atlanta druggist who refined the formula

and promoted it. It also contained a lot of sugar and caused teeth to rot.

Teachers loved to demonstrate this by taking a kid's baby tooth which had

fallen out and dropping

it into a glass of Coca-Cola and gloat as it slowly dissolved in about a week.



Coke was made to be sold at drugstore soda fountains and was dispensed into

a glass

filled with ice and which to which carbonated water was added. Because of

the ice and

the seltzer, the syrup was especially sweet. The caffeine, sugar (and earlier

presumably the cocaine) all had a highly addictive effect and combined with

Candler's

fantastic promotional abilities made Coca Cola a major world product. As it

became

more popular it was put into a 6 1/2 ounce bottle which was just the right

size to

give a jonesing teenager a jolt as well as a zit.



Pepsi was an also-ran, but in the 50's and 60's decided they would claim the

generation

and somehow made the formula a little sweeter than Coke, found it had a

great promoter

in Playboy founder Hugh Hefner and paid Richard Nixon to get their product

into Russia.



When the Cuban revolution led to the Great Cuban sugar embargo by the United

States,

the soft drink industry began to search for alternatives to sugar, which

eventually

led to corn syrup.



Then in the greatest marketing debacle the world had ever seen (far worse

than second

place, the introduction of the Edsel) Coca Cola introduced "New Coke" which

was full

of corn syrup and which THEY thought tasted sweeter than Pepsi but really

tasted like

bland canvas. They then reverted to "Classic Coke" which is supposed to be the

"original formula," whatever that means. Coke has never tasted the same, I

refuse to

drink it unless desperate, and I think Pepsi (which isn't as good as it used

to be,

either) is still a heck of a lot better.



If you really think they taste the same, you probably can't distinguish between

Oreos and Hydrox cookies and there's no hope for you.



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net







PS: Jay Leno has asserted that Egg Nog is the drink of choice at Christmas

because it is

the only drink with sufficient surface tension to force a Claxton fruitcake

through the

colon.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:15:26 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



    However, a historian may have a larger vocabulary than a linguist,

    and both have larger vocabularies than a mathematician.

 

 I'm not convinced this is true; in fact I'd be surprised if there were

 any significant differences in vocabulary size by discipline. Has any

 research been done on this?

 

 Mary Bucholtz

 Department of Linguistics

 University of California, Berkeley



OK, start counting, who has a larger vocabulary, Jesse Sheidlower or Daniel

Boorstin?

Einstein or Plutarch?



SETH



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:48:49 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



 I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized I had

just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on various root

beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again) with

a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.



IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's in NY

used to.)



SETH





  As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that "coke" is used in the South as

  a generic term for any carbonated beverage, whether it be Coke, Pepsi,

  7-Up, or whatever. Can anyone from the South confirm or deny this?

  

  Weirdly enough, also in the Southern Illinois region, you often hear

  "white soda", meaning 7-Up or Sprite. Is this common elsewhere?

 

 There ya go. I thought of that immediately

 when someone mentioned the "coke" thing.

 

 I grew up using "soda," "pop," "sodapop,"

 and "coke" interchangeably. To specify 7-up

 or Sprite, I used the term "white soda."

 To specify Coke or Pepsi, RC or whatever,

 I said "dark soda."

 

 But the funny thing is, I'd prefer Dr. Pepper

 to Pepsi, Mountain Dew to Coke, IBC Root Beer

 to 7-Up, etc. So I usually wind up specifying

 the name of the beverage I want. So far I've not

 been able to order a Mountain Dew by asking for

 "yellow sodapop."

 

 And anyway, the sad fact is that not too many

 fast-food chains are supplied IBC root beer, alas.

 

 

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

 ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

 ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

 ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

 ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

 ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

 ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:48:52 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Time clock



Time clock is a device used to record the times of an employee's arrival

to and departure from work. It was usually activated by inserting a time

card into it and either manually stamping the time onto it, or later

activating a switch which caused the stamp to enter the time onto the

card. Obviously you never worked in a factory or in a hospital or...etc.



SETH SKLAREY





 I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

 by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."

 

 Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.

 

 What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

 those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.

 

 The Tractors, btw, are from Oklahoma.

 

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

 ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

 ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

 ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

 ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

 ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

 ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:54:01 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Time clock



Kate O'Neill wrote:



 I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

 by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."

 

 Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.

 

 What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

 those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.



By the way, time clocks were also known as punch clocks.



SETH



There is a wall clock, alarm clock, table clock, clock radio

and Clock Kent (just kidding, Lois).



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:30:12 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:



 

  BTW, I come from Chicago, and "Dawn" rhymes with "lawn" and "Don"

  rhymes with "on." I assume those words aren't pronounced the same

  way around the country.



All four are exact rhymes for me.

Fritz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:49:53 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



Since I was the first to mention this pronunciation, I guess I should

explain, altho the following note was to Tim. When I write [fle:g], I

mean what you write as /fleyg/, altho I'm not sure it's really a

diphthong, as your spelling might indicate (probably depends on the

speaker-- perhaps those who say MinnesO:ta also have no diphthong in

`flag'). What is definitely out is [flEg]. I've never heard that.

Fritz-- writing from the sunny Twin Cities, where the mercury hit 20

degrees today.



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Tim,

      Howdy from the warm sunny Southwest, where the temp is around 80:

  in writing [fle:g], are you indicating what I would write /fleyg/ (rhyming

  with  plague ) or /flEg/? I always say /flaeg/, but my Southern friends

  and relatives say /flaeyg/. /flEg/ (or [flE:g])would sound very Yankee to me.

      Rudy

 

  --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:58:43 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Vocabulary & IQ



As the psychologist husband in question, I've been asked to clarify.



First, I qualify as a well-educated, up-to-date, licensed clinical

psychologist (Ph.D.). I'm a member of APA, & have been an examiner for CA.

I am qualified to document a person's IQ (whether for SSI, school, court,

or Mensa), and keep informed on available indices of IQ.



I don't think there's a better intro to the topic than Matarrazzo. I defer

to him as an authority.



IQ isn't a difficult concept; the various definitions are usually

summarized as "figuring things out," altho I prefer "adapting to novel

tasks." Once the concept has been operationalized (i.e., a criterion has

been agreed upon), standarized measures can be devised to fulfill the need

for the measure. Historically, that need came when schools sought a way of

giving special aid to the lower 2% of the child population, and again when

this nation's military sought a way of making the most of the hordes of men

suddenly being processed at the entry of WWI.



As psychologists kept at it, our tests got more sophisticated (the WAIS-III

is in development!). Spearman's G (the notion of a general, overarching

factor) and related special intellectual abilities (see the description of

Gardner's ideas) seemed pretty reasonable as an approach. My predecessors

discovered that once a G score (such as the WAIS-R FSIQ) was formulated,

Vocabulary (followed by Similarities) correlated the highest with the

overall score in both adults and children. Hence, the PPVT, Shipley ILS,

and shorter forms of the WAIS usually include some well-normed measure of

vocabulary. Hence, Rima's carefully chosen "vocabulary is amongst our best

indicators."



Now: what to do about people who are not from the normative population? We

have a host of "culture-free" tests; I like the Raven Progressive Matrices

best. Those tests use language-free problems to get at the IQ, and do

acceptably at getting at IQ potential.



The referral question must be considered. If the question is: this child

is having trouble in school. Should we give special attention to her? The

answer is, yes, why do you need an IQ? If the question is: will this

applicant do well in a computer customer service position? I'll use a

highly verbal test, or even verbal ability during an interview. If the

question is : should we kill this defendant, or let him live? The answer

is: here are the results of both verbal and non-verbal measures, plus many

others.



 it is historically characteristic of reductionist thinking in psychology

to equate vocabulary with intelligence.



Has anyone ever done this? Or are we talking about useful predictors?



  I hear of psychologists using the vocabulary to assess the level of

cognitive development



as well as intelligence.



 My apologies to your husband the psychologist



Accepted.



 While this might be a relatively effective device for a homogeneous population

(and I doubt that it is really effective there)



Science (as opposed to opinion) disagrees.



  in the midst of diversity, it is almost as poopy as dialect prejudice.



The presence of some folks in the population that are not represented in

the normative sample of the given test does not invalidate the test, it

only limits the interpretation.



 My father ...told me about Leonard

Bloomfield's success in raising his childrens' IQs in a very short time by

simply drilling them in vocabulary.



Surely this group understands the fallacy of "teaching the test"?



 I'd be surprised if there were

any significant differences in vocabulary size by discipline. Has any

research been done on this?



Oddly enough, yes.



R.K.McKinzey, Ph.D.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Dec 1995 23:58:36 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



 

 amongst?....uneducated?

 

 Hmmn?



AHD has amongst as variant of among. RHD defines amongst as a chiefly

Brit. variant of among. WND defines it as "same as among." And etc. So

what's the/your problem?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 00:33:23 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: linguistic thinking



 There is

 a constant danger, even for linguists, to get trapped in the Eurocentric

 view of language as composed of atomic things called "words", and to think

 other peoples and cultures less sophisticated because they don't have "a word"

 for something. For one thing, they may have many words for aspects of a

 phenomenon, and think English speakers less capable of precise thought because

 we bumble along with a single gross category.



I've always thought that one of the joys of learning another language was

learning to think somewhat differently.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:12:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen"  K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM 

Subject: Re: name's the same



I do not differentiate between "Don" and "Dawn" (but I don't differentiate

between "cot" and "caught" or "pull" and "pole" either). Actually, my dialect

has a rather limited number of vowels. This has caused significant problems

in trying to learn Dutch and Fries, which seem to have a lot more vowels than

they really need.



Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:19:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen"  K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



 I think that people who have no ability to speak might be considered dumb.



I assume this was a joke. People who cannot speak ARE "dumb" according to the

strict meaning of the word: "Lacking the power of speech" (Webster's).



However, this has made me think of my situation, where I am living in the

Netherlands and often find myself in groups of people who are speaking Dutch.

I can understand a good bit now, but because I don't use it often, I have

some trouble speaking it myself. What I have discovered is that people tend

to treat me as though I'm retarded in some way. If someone starts to speak to

me in English and we have a normal conversation, I can immediately see the

difference in the way they interact with me--sometimes they even look

surprised when they realize that I can discuss things normally.



k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:20:40 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



The answer is easy. It's fun to talk like possum-huntin', barefooted,

moonshine-makin', racist, Bible-thumpin', rednecks (so all Northerners can

do it, not well, but they think they can), and apprently derive an

underlying sense of moral, intellectual, and political superiority out of

it, but it ain't fun at all to talk like cheatin', heathen, rude,

fast-talkin', etc.... Northerners.

That's why.

More seriously, I suspect (as I tried to point out in my piece in the

Cassidy Festschrift on the imitations of White and Black Americans by one

another) that the degree of popularity of dialect imitation is directly

related to the degree to which a group of people (race, region, whatever)

constitute a 'folk object' for another. African-Americans,

Mexican-Americans, Southerners, etc... are more solidly 'folk objects' in

our culture than are the 'unmarked' Northern group (except, of course, for

Southerners who have the outline of stereotypes I list above, a list often

horrifying to Northerners, who, beset with an idea of their own normality,

find others but never themselves strange).

When (to make the language prejudice point) I make fun of my Michigan

students' Northern speech they are, in fact, too surprised at the very idea

to be horrified at first. Then they get really angry. Don't I know that

they are the normal ones? Many, surprisingly, recover and begin to

understand.

Dennis Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 A former partner I had in a neighborhood bar hailed from Rochester, NY.

 A steady customer we had was raised in L.A. (Lower Alabama.) My partner,

 in his assertion of superior intelligence often asked him: "If you're so

 smart, how come I can talk like you, but you can't talk like me?"

 

 Seth Sklarey

 Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

 Coconut Grove, FL

 crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net

 

  Rima,

  My apologies to your husband the psychologist, but he seems to have been

  only half-educated by modern linguistics; he should go all they way.

  In what way could vocabulary measure intelligence (if by intelligence we

  mean something really crass like 'the ability to figure things out')? If

  you lack some words, you simply lack them. For example, when you enter a

  new technical field, you clearly do not have the vocabulary for that

  endeavor. Would you say that after you had acquired it you were more

  'intelligent.' Surely not. What I am sure your well-meaning huisband means

  is that we (i.e., psychologists) have developed certain traditional

  'benchmarks' which guide us in the evaluation of intelligence. We assume,

  therefore, that the acquisition of a certain breadth of vocabulary

  (nonspecialized, of course) indicates a certain 'normal' development. While

  this might be a relatively effective device for a homogeneous population

  (and I doubt that it is really effective there), in the midst of diversity,

  it is almost as poopy as dialect prejudice.

  On that latter matter, I like your list of those dialects which are 'really

  heavy, thick' - 'Southern/NY/Oklahoman/etc.'

  If I told you how really heavy, thik Inland Northern, especially urban

  (e.g., Michigan ) dialects sound to me (and make me think of their

  speakers), I would run out of the state that feeds me.

  Of course, now I know that it is not true that everybody north of

  Indianapolis-Columbus (roughly) will not give you the time of day and

  cheat you if they can (surely the mildest of my reactions to Inland

  Northern), but it has required linguistic discipline to arrive at that

  conclusion. Like Virgiknia, I ofetn despair of so-called 'attitude

  changing' priograms, but I think we should keep trying. There is positive

  evidence as well.

  Dennis

  (who has learned to keep a straight face while Inland Northern speakers

  talk) Preston

   preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu,.edu 

  

  

   At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

    I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

    a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

   

   My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

   dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

   amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

   when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

   have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

   uneducated.)

   

   Rima

  

  



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:25:34 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



An interesting confusion of speech and language. Maybe among people with

the required linguistic output conditions of Hawking, he is a good

'speaker' (as we more easily recognize talented 'speakers' [actors,

singers, etc...] of ASL).

Just reminding you of modes and channels.

Dennis Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 I think that people who have no ability to speak might be considered dumb.

 

 I am also struck by the fact that Stephen Hawking would be a rather bad

 orator but he is in fact one of the most intelligent people of the 20th

 century. So does his limited faciltiy limit his spirit or intelligence? Why

 even ask - that question is what limits.

 

 Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:42:53 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



  

  amongst?....uneducated?

  

  Hmmn?

 

 AHD has amongst as variant of among. RHD defines amongst as a chiefly

 Brit. variant of among. WND defines it as "same as among." And etc. So

 what's the/your problem?

 

 

My problem was with rigid, pedantic English teachers of the past who didn't

allow

for the continuous evolution of the English language, language in use

applications,

and the wonderful and serious scholarship of the participants of ADS and

ADS-L. It

was a sarcastic dig at them, a resentment for them having subconsciously

instilled

a false standard within my psyche, and a thanks to them for allowing me to

recognize the difference. It was meant to elicit the response it did

scholastically,

but not meant as a personal attack.



SETH



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:02:12 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



As someone who focuses on students learning to transcribe, I think the idea of

using the Pledge of Allegiance is a great idea. I'll try it.



You have observed change in the pronunciation of the vowel in flag, a change

representing raising of the low front vowel. What have you observed with the

low vowels in the three other instances, two "and"s and "stand". Of course, if

your students are like mine, they have trouble with vowels before nasals, but

has there been an noticeable pattern of raising here? It would be consistent

with a pattern of phonemic change, as distinct from a simple lexical change or

split.



Terry





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:03:54 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



I have always been amused by the inability of non-group members to recognize

sometimes subtle sometimes glaring differences within what they perceive to

be a group. A prime example is the inability of Americans in general to

distinguish between Japanese and Chinese people and later, Korean and

Vietnamese.

Those who went to Viet Nam could distinguish among various ethnicities of the

Vietnamese. My British friend is always horrified when a person with an obvious

accent from one part of England is portraying a character from another part

without

studying the dialect differences. I went to college in New Orleans, yet have

rarely heard a "good" New Orleans accent in the movies.



The other day on TV they had a Jamaican actress portray a Haitian. The

result was

ridiculous to anyone who knows the difference.



The old chestnut that "they all look alike" probably applies to any outsider

looking at or listening to a "group." Here in Miami, most Spanish speakers are

thought of as "Cubans" despite their country of origin and obvious differences

in clarity of pronunciation, use of slang and appearance.



If we think of prejudice as pre-judged, it all comes into focus.



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net





Dennis Preston wrote:



 The answer is easy. It's fun to talk like possum-huntin', barefooted,

 moonshine-makin', racist, Bible-thumpin', rednecks (so all Northerners can

 do it, not well, but they think they can), and apprently derive an

 underlying sense of moral, intellectual, and political superiority out of

 it, but it ain't fun at all to talk like cheatin', heathen, rude,

 fast-talkin', etc.... Northerners.

 That's why.

 More seriously, I suspect (as I tried to point out in my piece in the

 Cassidy Festschrift on the imitations of White and Black Americans by one

 another) that the degree of popularity of dialect imitation is directly

 related to the degree to which a group of people (race, region, whatever)

 constitute a 'folk object' for another. African-Americans,

 Mexican-Americans, Southerners, etc... are more solidly 'folk objects' in

 our culture than are the 'unmarked' Northern group (except, of course, for

 Southerners who have the outline of stereotypes I list above, a list often

 horrifying to Northerners, who, beset with an idea of their own normality,

 find others but never themselves strange).

 When (to make the language prejudice point) I make fun of my Michigan

 students' Northern speech they are, in fact, too surprised at the very idea

 to be horrified at first. Then they get really angry. Don't I know that

 they are the normal ones? Many, surprisingly, recover and begin to

 understand.

 Dennis Preston

  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 

 

  A former partner I had in a neighborhood bar hailed from Rochester, NY.

  A steady customer we had was raised in L.A. (Lower Alabama.) My partner,

  in his assertion of superior intelligence often asked him: "If you're so

  smart, how come I can talk like you, but you can't talk like me?"

  

  Seth Sklarey

  Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

  Coconut Grove, FL

  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net

  

   Rima,

   My apologies to your husband the psychologist, but he seems to have been

   only half-educated by modern linguistics; he should go all they way.

   In what way could vocabulary measure intelligence (if by intelligence we

   mean something really crass like 'the ability to figure things out')? If

   you lack some words, you simply lack them. For example, when you enter a

   new technical field, you clearly do not have the vocabulary for that

   endeavor. Would you say that after you had acquired it you were more

   'intelligent.' Surely not. What I am sure your well-meaning huisband means

   is that we (i.e., psychologists) have developed certain traditional

   'benchmarks' which guide us in the evaluation of intelligence. We assume,

   therefore, that the acquisition of a certain breadth of vocabulary

   (nonspecialized, of course) indicates a certain 'normal' development. While

   this might be a relatively effective device for a homogeneous population

   (and I doubt that it is really effective there), in the midst of diversity,

   it is almost as poopy as dialect prejudice.

   On that latter matter, I like your list of those dialects which are 'really

   heavy, thick' - 'Southern/NY/Oklahoman/etc.'

   If I told you how really heavy, thik Inland Northern, especially urban

   (e.g., Michigan ) dialects sound to me (and make me think of their

   speakers), I would run out of the state that feeds me.

   Of course, now I know that it is not true that everybody north of

   Indianapolis-Columbus (roughly) will not give you the time of day and

   cheat you if they can (surely the mildest of my reactions to Inland

   Northern), but it has required linguistic discipline to arrive at that

   conclusion. Like Virgiknia, I ofetn despair of so-called 'attitude

   changing' priograms, but I think we should keep trying. There is positive

   evidence as well.

   Dennis

   (who has learned to keep a straight face while Inland Northern speakers

   talk) Preston

    preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu,.edu 

   

   

    At 4:13 PM 12/5/95, STEPHANIE RAE WELLS wrote:

     I'm just curious to know if anybody out there still holds the belief that

     a persons intelligence can be measured by the way they speak?

    

    My husband the psychologist says that while we may recognize that accents,

    dialects et al. are not good indicators of intelligence, vocabulary is

    amongst our best indicators. (And on a personal note, I must admit that

    when I hear a really heavy, thick Southern/ NY /Oklahoman/etc. accent I

    have to concentrate on not immediately thinking stupid -or at least

    uneducated.)

    

    Rima

   

   

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:28:39 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM 

Subject: receipt -Reply



In south central PA (PA Dutch Country), we use the variant "het up"

as in "Can I het up your coffee?" Additionally, "het up" always makes

me think of "redd up" or "redd out," as in "I've redd up your room"

said to a guest, or "I've got to redd out the basement" to refer to a

need to throw out a lot of junk and clean up. I've always assumed

"redd up" follow. Thoughts?



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



    Jeutonne Brewer  brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NR.INFI.NET  12/6/95, 10:31pm    

I have heard my mother-in-law use "receipt" for "recipe" many times.

She often self-corrected her "receipt" to "recipe," sometimes

immediately, sometimes in the next sentence or two. In other words

she recognized

"recipe" as the newer term. Another use I was fascinated to hear was

"het," as in "I het the water for you."



She lived in Arkansas all her life until she moved to NC to live with

my husband and me after she retired. Now 93 years old, she was in her

60s when she made this move.



An afterword:

I have found this a strange note to write, one that like many other

things makes English tenses an interesting topic. I was "forced" to

shift tense in the first paragraph because I used to be able to hear

her use many interesting expressions. She is alive but not well and

no longer able to talk to us. I think a fascinating language and

discourse topic concerns what happens when (and if) the elderly lose

their linguistic capability? I just realized as I was writing this

note that an equally interesting topic is what happens in the

speech/writing of the researcher who in an ethnograpic sense shifts

in and out of different contexts, time frames, and linguistic as well

as personal relationships. I have written about the first topic but

not the second topic. Well, I have gotten way off the original topic

for this message.





**************************************************

* jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu           *

*   Department of English           *

*   University of North Carolina at Greensboro *

*   Greensboro, NC 17412            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu             *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fagan.uncg.edu            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nr.infi.net              *

**************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:29:47 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Time clock



 There is a wall clock, alarm clock, table clock, clock radio

 and Clock Kent (just kidding, Lois).



Thank you all for setting me straight.



Believe it or not, I HAVE worked in places

that used "time clocks" -- it's just been

a few years, and, aw heck, I just plain forgot.



=^]



Wearing a sheepish grin,



Kate



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:07:44 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



I pronounce them differently. The o in Don is short and somewhat flat,

and Dawn tends to be longer and more of a diphthong. Also an Oregonian.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:



  On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:

 

    Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

    the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

    Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?

   

  I am equally surprised when I hear people make a distinction between the

  two names. So, yes, there are other parts of the country where the names

  are pronounced the same. I'm an Oregonian, BTW.

  Fritz

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:11:00 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Tim,

      Howdy from the warm sunny Southwest, where the temp is around 80:

  in writing [fle:g], are you indicating what I would write /fleyg/ (rhyming

  with  plague ) or /flEg/? I always say /flaeg/, but my Southern friends

  and relatives say /flaeyg/. /flEg/ (or [flE:g])would sound very Yankee to me.

      Rudy

 

  --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 

I meant something like /fleyg/, Rudi. Definitely not [flEg].



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:36:48 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



I'm glad somebody clarified this. I thought maybe what was meant was

[fle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]g], with a diphthong that I've heard as a realization of /ae/ in,

e.g., New Jersey. [fle:g], or [flejg], on the other hand, really sounds

outlandish and I'm sure I never heard it. Do those who use it also say

[be:g] 'bag', [ge:g] 'gag', [le:g] 'lag' and [se:g] 'sag'?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR





On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:



  Since I was the first to mention this pronunciation, I guess I should

  explain, altho the following note was to Tim. When I write [fle:g], I

  mean what you write as /fleyg/, altho I'm not sure it's really a

  diphthong, as your spelling might indicate (probably depends on the

  speaker-- perhaps those who say MinnesO:ta also have no diphthong in

  `flag'). What is definitely out is [flEg]. I've never heard that.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:43:01 EST

From:  Les Carpenter  lesc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCSUMTER.USCSU.SC.EDU 

Subject: Re[2]: name's the same



     I worked in Sioux City, Iowa, for three years in the late

     70's at a small Methodist college. One of my colleagues,

     named Don, had a daughter named Dawn. Most of our common

     friends and coworkers, either longtime residents or natives

     of the area, pronounced the two names the same.

        Les Carpenter

        lesc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uscsumter.uscsu.sc.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: name's the same

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at INTERNET

Date:  12/7/95 11:06 AM





I pronounce them differently. The o in Don is short and somewhat flat,

and Dawn tends to be longer and more of a diphthong. Also an Oregonian.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:



  On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:

 

    Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

    the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

    Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?

   

  I am equally surprised when I hear people make a distinction between the

  two names. So, yes, there are other parts of the country where the names

  are pronounced the same. I'm an Oregonian, BTW.

  Fritz

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:00:53 -0600

From:  Gerald Walton  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Time clock



 marks the time on the card is a time clock.



I have a relative who refers to dentists as tooth dentists. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:17:48 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



  I'm glad somebody clarified this. I thought maybe what was meant was

  [fle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]g], with a diphthong that I've heard as a realization of /ae/ in,

  e.g., New Jersey. [fle:g], or [flejg], on the other hand, really sounds

  outlandish and I'm sure I never heard it. Do those who use it also say

  [be:g] 'bag', [ge:g] 'gag', [le:g] 'lag' and [se:g] 'sag'?



I do.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:28:02 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: [fle:g]



I checked my notes on the most recent assignment and found no instances of [ae]

raising in  and  or  stands  in the Pledge of Allegiance, and I don't recall

seeing transcriptions like *[stenz] or *[stEnz] instead of [staenz] or

[staendz] in the past. I'll have another shot at this early in the spring

semester.



DWL



P.S.: In giving this assignment, I'm always careful to offer an alternative if

someone is uncomfortable with the Pledge of Allegiance for religious or other

reasons. It's not useful for foreign students either, since it won't be part of

their memorized repertoire. I've tried the US national anthem too, but found

that too many students didn't know the words. (They also don't know "The

Village Blacksmith" and other stuff that I had to memorize when I was in

school, back in the Cretaceous.)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:33:15 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



Can you give me more information about what you mean by the 'o' in Don

being 'flat'?

Thanks,

Denis preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 I pronounce them differently. The o in Don is short and somewhat flat,

 and Dawn tends to be longer and more of a diphthong. Also an Oregonian.

 Allen

 maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

 

 On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:

 

   On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Lisa Pogoff wrote:

  

     Upon moving to MN, I was surprised to hear my co-workers pronounce

     the male name "Don" and the female name "Dawn" exactly the same way.

     Are they also pronounced the same in other parts of the country?

    

   I am equally surprised when I hear people make a distinction between the

   two names. So, yes, there are other parts of the country where the names

   are pronounced the same. I'm an Oregonian, BTW.

   Fritz

  



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:02:10 -0800

From:  Mary Bucholtz  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Vocabulary & IQ



 

  Now: what to do about people who are not from the normative population? We

  have a host of "culture-free" tests; I like the Raven Progressive Matrices

  best. Those tests use language-free problems to get at the IQ, and do

  acceptably at getting at IQ potential.



Surely language-free and culture-free are not the same thing. And surely

the whole notion of testing is deeply rooted in culture.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 10:02:25 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Perspective...(?)



In proofreading something, I recently corrected what I thought was a

typo, changing "providing students with a broader perspective OF

international issues" to "...a broader perspective ON world issues." A

colleague just now asked me in puzzlement why I had changed it. To her,

"of" seemed right and "on" seemed wrong. To me, the opposite is true.



Is this a regional issue? Or is one of us crazy?



I'd like to gain a broader perspective on/of "perspective".



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:00:42 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: can/can't



I know that Labov has done some studies on this, but what about the

pronunciation between (unreduced) "can" and "can't"? I pronounce "can"

as /kaen/ - (the vowel is an "ash") and "can't" as /ke:nt/. (I come from

Phila.) I think Labov described this as being only a Phila. phenomenon.

Any comments? (I think some Philadelphians even pronounce "can't" as

something more like /kint/, with a short schwa sound after the /i/.)



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 14:10:05 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Perspective...(?)



All I can offer is that I frequently change "perspective of" to

"perspective on" in that sort of context (I'm paid for editing),

and "viewpoint of" to "viewpoint on." In my usage, which I've thought

of as more-or-less standard, "viewpoint of" or "perspective of"

should be followed by the person whose viewpoint it is: "The viewpoint

of the Senator is...." I'm from New York city.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:00:49 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: can/can't



 Date:     Thu, 7 Dec 1995 12:00:42 -0700

 From: POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 



 I know that Labov has done some studies on this, but what about the

 pronunciation between (unreduced) "can" and "can't"? I pronounce "can"

 as /kaen/ - (the vowel is an "ash") and "can't" as /ke:nt/. (I come from

 Phila.) I think Labov described this as being only a Phila. phenomenon.

 Any comments? (I think some Philadelphians even pronounce "can't" as

 something more like /kint/, with a short schwa sound after the /i/.)

 

I've always pronounced "can" as "k(u)n" with almost no vowel at all. "can't"

comes out more like "kaen" with the final "t" almost totally dropped off.

I'm from Seattle



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:59:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: Re: Perspective...(?)



I agree with Vicki Rosenzweig. I get paid for editing too. I'm from New York City. I too would change "viewpoint of" to viewpoint on" in the context mentioned.



Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 17:59:02 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



 

  I know that Labov has done some studies on this, but what about the

  pronunciation between (unreduced) "can" and "can't"? I pronounce "can"

  as /kaen/ - (the vowel is an "ash") and "can't" as /ke:nt/. (I come from

  Phila.) I think Labov described this as being only a Phila. phenomenon.

  Any comments? (I think some Philadelphians even pronounce "can't" as

  something more like /kint/, with a short schwa sound after the /i/.)

 

  Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)

 



I wonder if you mean the alternation between [ae] in the simple form and

[e] in the negated form as being distinctive to the Philly area. For the

pronunciation of {can't} with a front central [e:] occurs commonly in the

mountain speech I hear. But the vowel in {can}, if not reduced, is much

closer to a low front point of articulation. So my experience tells me it

isn't only a Phila phenom.



Terry



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 15:44:21 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Time clock



A time clock is something you punch when you report to work. It punches

your time card so that you can be paid your wages when the eagle screams.

Joe

Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425







On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



  I just heard, in the lyrics to a song

  by the Tractors, the expression "time clock."

 

  Is this a common expression? I've never heard it.

 

  What other kinds of "clock" are there besides

  those of the "time" variety? I'm stumped.

 

  The Tractors, btw, are from Oklahoma.

 

  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

  ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

  ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

  ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

  ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

  ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

  ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

  ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:36:34 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: NEW COKE



re: Pepsi jingle



I think it went something like:



   Pespi Cola hits the spot

   Twelve full ounces--that's a lot!

   Try it once, and you'll agree,

   "PEPsi Cola is the drink for me!"

   NICKEL, NICKEL, NICKEL....



BHHudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu (should be reading term papers)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:09:37 -0500

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Labov (fwd)



(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)





Dear Don,



After a story about my work with LANCS materials appeared in a Lexington

paper, I just received a letter from a Bob Rennington (sp?) who has

worked on Kentucky place names and he mentioned you along with Fred and

Ravin as people's work he has followed. He's going to look me up, and I

wondered what might be a connection. Let me know.



I AM MAKING THIS PERSONAL LETTER PUBLIC FOR A REASON IN THE AGE OF NEWT



This letter is a follow up on my attack on Labov. I tried to work this

out as a letter to post to ADS but I thought better of it for once.



Now that I have thought about it twice, I am posting it.



Labov has gotten a lot of money from our government for the study of

language, probably much more than Chomsky has ever even thought about.

(I have looked into this question.) Projects on language variation and

change and a new project on language variation in America have been

funded by the NEH program on Reference Materials, and yet I know of no

materials from these projects having been made available to the scholarly

public interested in these ideas. Do you? Articles written by him and

his students mention these grants and that's about it. The data ain't

around for other people to look at. I pay taxes and that's my beef.



At the same time, DARE and LAMSAS (forget everything I said about it) are

being squeezed for money, and yet both projects have produced materials

that other scholars can use. Before you jump to any conclusions, you

need to know that Labov has had a project for about a quarter of a mil

funded for this and the next fiscal year, even as the rest of the budget

squabble continues. I wonder if the basis for this survey of English in

North America will be different from the phone project. By the way,

where are the results of the phone survey project? We paid for them.

I'd like to see them.



Terry











(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:12:22 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Labov (fwd)



It is not clear to me who the author of the "letter" about Labov's research

is. Can someone tell me?



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:55:42 -0500

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Labov (fwd)



On Thu, 7 Dec 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  It is not clear to me who the author of the "letter" about Labov's research

  is. Can someone tell me?

 

  Thanks,

  Bethany

 



Why does the question of who is the author of the letter matter?

Why are you so afraid to discuss issues about language?





Terry Irons



(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:25:21 -0600

From:  OBRYAN ERIN LEIGH  leila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FALCON.CC.UKANS.EDU 

Subject: vowel laxing



I am doing some dialect work on vowel laxing in Wichita, Kansas and

Kansas City, Kansas. (eg. Does "really" rhyme with "silly"? Is "while"

a homophone of "wall"?) If anyone knows of any good sources on tense

versus lax vowels or any related studies, I would really appreciate any

information about them.



Erin O'Bryan

Linguistics Student

University of Kansas



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:36:10 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Labov (fwd)



My dear Terry, perhaps you have never make an incorrect assumption about

authorship of email. I have, therefore am willing to acknowledge that I may

do it again someday.



Authorship often matters to me because I understand somewhat the role of

context (including author and audience) in human communication.



You ask:



"Why are you so afraid to discuss issues about language?"



Is it possible that you have me confused with someone else???



Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify matters.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 20:24:48 -0800

From:  "Joseph P. McGowan"  mcgowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TEETOT.ACUSD.EDU 

Subject: Re: sneakers -Reply



On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Molly Dickmeyer wrote:



  Anybody else refer to the little white canvas sneaks as "bobos"? Or

  (apologies for the slur) "faggy whites"?

 

  Molly

  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com

 



`Bobos' brings back distinct and (slightly) painful memories.

Philadelphia area, late 70s to early 80s. `Bobos' as a designation I

remember being brand specific: TRAX (K-Mart brand, 2 pair for $10) or

Lotto (slightly more well-heeled at $8 a pair). The usage seemed to be

predominantly male, working class to lower middle, seemingly more often

in the Catholic schools (because of uniforms there could be fewer

displays of distinction in dress-- until gym class and the Nikes and

Converses came out). Had also heard `bozos' though this would usually be

corrected. `Bobo' was also extended into an all-purpose pejorative

modifier: `bobo season' (Big Five basketball), `bobo pizza' (frozen

slices, like Elliot's), `bobo music' (disco at the time).



J.McGowan

English

Univ. of San Diego



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:35:11 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Pepsi Jingle



SETH asked:

  As a member of the "Pepsi generation" (I grew up in the 50's), where we

  heard the jingle "Pepsi-Cola hits the spot..." (someone pleease finish it)



Kate Catmull answered:



Pepsi-Cola hits the spot

Twelve ounce bottle, that's a lot!

Twice as much for a nickel, too--

Pepsi-Cola is the drink for you!



Not bad for someone born in 1958, eh?



Kate



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Dec 1995 to 7 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 264 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Pepsi Jingle (2)

 2. Perspective...(?) (3)

 3. non-linguistic thinking

 4. Language and Intelligence (2)

 5. can/can't

 6. Perspective on/of (2)

 7. root beer preferences



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:02:03 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pepsi Jingle



 Pepsi-Cola hits the spot

 Twelve ounce bottle, that's a lot!

...



In my dialect,

 "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot!"



   Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Dec 1995 22:51:47 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Perspective...(?)



I'd have to use "perspective ON" in this context. "OF" would be possible

only if it were transformable to "____'s perspective".

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 01:16:33 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: non-linguistic thinking



I don't think all people need language in which to think. Case in point: I

think in a time-spatial manner. When remembering things, anything, I recall

it in the manner that I learned it in. When I think of the bones in the human

body and try to recall their names I remember the 5th grade classroom, my

teacher, what I was wearing, where I sat, etc. On top of that I recall the

emotions of the memory with the same impact as when they first occured.

Something that made me laugh or cry 10 years ago will do the same today.



When thinking of new or self conceived ideas I think of them as objects that

are hopeless interconnected to their environment. Yes there is some language

but it is totally immeshed in the whole idea, no one part is seperated. I

think it is extremely hard to use just language to communicate to others.

Consequentially, I sculpt, draw, write, program, be silent, watch and talk to

satisfy my need to communicate.



All said the past two day on ADS-L have been stimulating.



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 08:50:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen"  K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM 

Subject: Re: Perspective...(?)



I also edit for a living and I would change it to "perspective on." I agree

that it could only be "perspective of" if you were talking about the

perspective OF someone.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

van Imhoffstraat 24      Phone (home): 31 (70) 383-0946

2595 SE The Hague          (work): 31 (70) 349-6107

The Netherlands        E-mail:  k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 00:34:52 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



 However, this has made me think of my situation, where I am living in the

 Netherlands and often find myself in groups of people who are speaking Dutch.

 I can understand a good bit now, but because I don't use it often, I have

 some trouble speaking it myself. What I have discovered is that people tend

 to treat me as though I'm retarded in some way. If someone starts to speak to

 me in English and we have a normal conversation, I can immediately see the

 difference in the way they interact with me--sometimes they even look

 surprised when they realize that I can discuss things normally.

 

This reminds me of another way folks make assumptions. After I broke my

leg very badly many years ago and was going around on crutches, I noticed

that some people would speak to me louder and slower. I kept having to

tell them that my leg was broken, my mind and ears were fine.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:08:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen"  K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM 

Subject: Re: Perspective...(?)



I have had a chance to discuss this with some of my colleagues. It seems to

be another one of those US versus UK English things.



The users of UK English all agree that it should be "gain a better

perspective OF [something]"



The US users tend towards "gain a better perspective ON [something]"



The choice of preposition that goes with a verb seems to be one area where

there is a lot of disagreement, and this is just one example. (A couple of

other examples include "cater TO" vs. "cater FOR" and "ride IN" vs. "ride ON

the bus.")



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 10:13:05 EST

From:  SHELLEY N HALL  snhall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Language and Intelligence



I can relate to your situation. I, too, know how it feels to have people

regard you as intellectually deprived. I moved to California from

Kentucky for close to a year, and almost everyone that I came into contact with

assumed that my heritage was a disadvantage to me. Most people who were

natives of the state believed that, in Kentucky, we did not attend high school

and especially not college. This was not the only sterotypical ideas that I

encountered. My point is, people should not judge you by things such as your

accent. It was amusing to see their expressions when they heard I was a

junior in college. It was as if they did not believe me. I guess they watch

too many talk shows.



shelley

snhall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 07:59:24 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: can/can't



I pronounce "can"

  as /kaen/ - (the vowel is an "ash") and "can't" as /ke:nt/.



For whatever it's worth (not much, I imagine, but I thought I'd pass it

along anyway), yesterday my five-year-old daughter, who's gotten pretty

good at correlating sounds to letters, wrote the word "can," sounding

it out for herself, as "kean."



We live near Salt Lake City.



Bruce Gelder



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 11:38:59 -0500

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Perspective on/of



Okay, I'll chime in. The following sentence reveals to me that on and of

are not simply US vs UK allomorphs of a single morpheme.



They adopt the perspective of Martian scientists on issues of linguistic

difference.



It appears that for me "perspective of X" means "perspective taken by X"

while "perspective on X" means "perspective taken about X". I'd be

interested to know how a Brit would phrase the above.

H Stephen STRAIGHT            Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics  LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric   VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889

 sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"!]



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 13:03:40 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Perspective on/of



I don't think so Steve. The crucial 'of' is not the one you provide but the

one which could follow 'scientists' in your example.



They adopt the perspective of Martian scientists of issues of linguistic

difference.



Your first 'of' should be admissible for any post-modifier and has no

influence on the subsequent use of the 'required' preposition.





You would agree, I suspect, that 'interest in' is a usual collocation. The

use of 'of' in such a string as



The interest of Martian linguists in Earth languages is not surprising



has nothing to do with subsequent occurrence of 'in,' in the same way, I

think, the 'of' you cite is not crucial to the 'of/'on' discussion going on

here. (That is, I think the British usage question is still open.)



Dennis

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 







 Okay, I'll chime in. The following sentence reveals to me that on and of

 are not simply US vs UK allomorphs of a single morpheme.

 

 They adopt the perspective of Martian scientists on issues of linguistic

 difference.

 

 It appears that for me "perspective of X" means "perspective taken by X"

 while "perspective on X" means "perspective taken about X". I'd be

 interested to know how a Brit would phrase the above.

 H Stephen STRAIGHT            Binghamton University (SUNY)

 Anthropology & Linguistics  LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

 Dir, Langs Across the Curric   VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889

  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"!]



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 12:26:34 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



Hey Seth,



Ever try "Dog 'n' Suds" root beer? So good, you almost get a buzz off it.



I guess this conversation has drifted far away from the original dialect

focus, but I just wanted to provide *my* opinion on root beer. :)



Laurie Bowman

Dept. of Linguistics

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



On Thu, 7

Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized I had

  just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on various root

  beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

  good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again) with

  a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.

 

  IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's in NY

  used to.)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Dec 1995 15:07:45 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: Pepsi Jingle



On Fri, 8 Dec 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



   Pepsi-Cola hits the spot

   Twelve ounce bottle, that's a lot!

  ...

 

  In my dialect,

  "Twelve full ounces, that's a lot!"



In your "dialect" indeed! What a kind way of pointing out that I got that

line wrong.



I got that line wrong--sorry Seth.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 1995 to 8 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 82 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Perspective on/of

 2. root beer preferences (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Dec 1995 00:28:56 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Perspective on/of



Dennis--

    Et al.--

    I agree completely with your analysis of Steve's Martians. As I

suggested previously, "of" expresses the genitive relationship in this

nominal construction, in which "Martian scientists" serves as a "subject"

or agent (what traditional grammarians called the "subjective genitive").

The PP  of Martian scientists  forms an IC with  perspective , as shown

by the commutation test of being switchable to prenominal position with

a following GEN suffix:  Martian scientists' perspective . This then forms

an IC with  on issues of linguistic difference , which serves as a kind of

"object" of  perspective . Perhaps the difference in preposition usage

reflects Fillmore's observation that an inherent P would tend to override

a structural  of  when the latter was serving as a subjective or objective

genitive marker.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Dec 1995 07:46:48 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



Dog 'n' Suds was pretty good. Hasn't been one hereabouts since 1957.





 Hey Seth,

 

 Ever try "Dog 'n' Suds" root beer? So good, you almost get a buzz off it.

 

 I guess this conversation has drifted far away from the original dialect

 focus, but I just wanted to provide *my* opinion on root beer. :)

 

 Laurie Bowman

 Dept. of Linguistics

 University of Arizona, Tucson

 bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu

 

 On Thu, 7

 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

 

   I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized I had

   just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on various root

   beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

   good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again) with

   a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.

  

   IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's

in NY

   used to.)

  

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Dec 1995 07:55:42 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



Dog 'n' Suds was pretty good. Hasn't been one hereabouts since 1957.





That triggered a memory of some other hot dog drive-in emporiums like



Frank 'n' Stein and Frank 'n' Bun



Anybody know of any others?



Does anybody remember the name of the grandaddy of all drive-in restaurants at

the Flagship on Route 22? It was the ______________car stop I believe, but

I can't

remember the name.



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Dec 1995 to 9 Dec 1995

**********************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 83 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /w/ and /hw/ (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Dec 1995 03:06:12 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Suzanne,



Sorry I took so long to respond to this. You'll find "hoor" in Brian

Friel's play _Translations_ which is set in early 19th century Ireland.

Late in the play, English soldiers march through a corn field prompting

an angry response from the owner as one character tells us: "And Barney

Petey just out of his bed and running after them in his drawers: 'You

hoors you! Get out of my corn, you hoors you!'" (III, ll. 113-15).

Clearly not a term of endearment.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Suzanne Legault: English wrote:



  Rudy:

 

  Re:

    Interesting, but not surprisingly, I've

   never heard the /u:/ (or /uw/, as I prefer to write it).

      Rudy

 

   Have you ever seen the "dialectal" spelling  hoor  which I always assumed

  represented /u:/?

 

  Suzanne

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Dec 1995 17:01:32 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English"  E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU 

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Dear Bob:



Now that's a "scholarly" response--one that my impressionistic musings

didn't deserve, but for which I am grateful, since the source of that spelling

has been nagging at me for the past week. I seem to remember it as occurring

in the context of "revival rhetoric," in the non-coastal South, e.g. "gone

a-hoorin' after the heathen." The fact that it's Irish makes sense, given

the 19th century Scots-Irish influx.

Thanks for your response.



Suzanne Legault

________________________________

On Saturday, Dec. 9, Bob wrote:



 Suzanne,



 Sorry I took so long to respond to this. You'll find "hoor" in Brian

Friel's play _Translations_ which is set in early 19th century Ireland.

Late in the play, English soldiers march through a corn field prompting

an angry response from the owner as one character tells us: "And Barney

Petey just out of his bed and running after them in his drawers: 'You

hoors you! Get out of my corn, you hoors you!'" (III, ll. 113-15).

Clearly not a term of endearment.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



On Mon, 4 Dec 1995, Suzanne Legault: English wrote:



  Rudy:

 

  Re:

    Interesting, but not surprisingly, I've

   never heard the /u:/ (or /uw/, as I prefer to write it).

      Rudy

 

   Have you ever seen the "dialectal" spelling  hoor  which I always assumed

  represented /u:/?

 

  Suzanne



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1995 to 10 Dec 1995

***********************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 557 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. non-linguistic thinking (2)

 2. name's the same

 3. Labov (fwd)

 4. Call for Papers

 5. thinking in language (2)

 6. Language and Intelligence

 7. Fwd: (ALERT) INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:29:15 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



I'm behind in doing my e-mail, so I may be repeating an as-yet unread post.



If we thought in language, how would we learn language? Simple as that!

How in anyone's imagination could Helen Keller have caught on when her

caretaker  spelled out 'water' if Helen had to already have language in

order to think? (Purists: pardon emphatic split infinitive)

                      DMLance, U of Missouri



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 08:48:01 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



Lest someone shouldmisunderstand Rudy's plea for us to rewrite phonological

history so that future generations won't confuse Don and Dawn, thereby

revealing a lower level of intelligence, we should recall all the

variant spellings we see in the OED and elsewhere when we look up words

spelled with o and a and digraphs employing these two vowel letters. Never

ever was there uniformity in the pronunciations of these items. Maybe

that's why English speakers have been involved in so many wars -- such

matters lead to so much frustration, never being able to be sure we

understand each other because of phonology. Rudy is known to engage in

apico-buccal gestures on occasion, you know.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:01:30 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



People think in language after they aquire one. We also think in

other ways as has been pointed out. Nevertheless, I do not believe

there is anyone who has aquired a language without thinking in one.

Tom



  I'm behind in doing my e-mail, so I may be repeating an as-yet unread post.

 

  If we thought in language, how would we learn language? Simple as that!

  How in anyone's imagination could Helen Keller have caught on when her

  caretaker  spelled out 'water' if Helen had to already have language in

  order to think? (Purists: pardon emphatic split infinitive)

                       DMLance, U of Missouri

 



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 09:05:48 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Labov (fwd)



Robert Rennick is active in the American Name Society. His main interest

is KY place names. I think he's a geographer in some low-paying position

associated with govt. He did a long article on KY place names and had

some lacunae in his understanding of language change and variation. I

reviewed the article some years ago and attempted to rework the piece,

hoping some day to help him work it all out, because so many MO place

names are KY importations. But I've never gotten back to that topic.

He has published some shorter pieces since then and they were OK. He

has some valuable files, I suspect. He's a nice guy but seems to be

frustrated by not being able to get as much academic travel as he needs.



On Labov. It's a shame, all right, that he gets big bucks and puts out

internal reports while DARE is still operating with IBM machines that have

less than a meg of RAM. I cringe whenever I see ad hominem arguments by

anyone about anyone (except creeps like Nixon or Gingrich). Labov is

playing the academic game of grantsmanship. A lot of his funding supports

grad students and buys equipment. I wonder whether he really has gotten

more than Chomsky got from NIMH for his syntax projects. I think that's

where he got lots and lots of money from    -- largely supporting

graduate students -- but I haven't noticed government and binding doing

much for the mental health of American taxpayers. It's the system that's

crooked, not Chomsky and Labov necessarily. And from an academic perspective

dissertations are thought to be legitimate "products of research."

Joh Foley is a similar case, but he DOES publish, often and much. Our

Chancellor has held Foley up as an example of what MU profs all oughta do.

Lots of grant money. Foley set a record for the number of NEH grants of

some sort this year. If all MU profs followed his example, few students would

get taught "the basics."



You have a good point in that DARE and LAMSAS make their data available to

others. Lee Pederson put all his records on microfilm so that every datum

can be reworked if someone wants to, and he even will share software, i

understand. But LAGS data are about as hard to use as Bill's LAMSAS data,

software notwithstanding. If Labov made his data files available to others,

who would be able to use them? I have 25 years of questionnaires piled

in my study, and did some tabulating in 1974, and tabulated 'Missouri' only

in 1990 or so. So, on a small scale I'm guilty of what you're accusing

Labov of -- though not with big grant money.



Flaming Labov publicly won't make his data available to others, and

probably won't spur him to publish his (unfinished) results. But the

flaming gives others impressions of YOU, and that's what concerns me. You

have the potential of a good career in language study ahead of you, if you

don't let (understandable) anger at the system distract you excessively.

I wish I'd gotten more grants etc., but then I wouldn't have been able to

teach as many classes. If you become known to ADS people as an inveterate

flamer you will get less cooperation when you need it. Life never was

fair. Just do what you can to make your garden flourish.

                        Avuncularly,

                        DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 12:05:17 -0500

From:  Toshiko Hamaguchi  HAMAGUCT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Call for Papers



            CALL FOR PAPERS



       The Georgetown Linguistics Society

              presents



            DISCOURSE AS MOSAIC

          linguistic re/production

                of

          identities & ideologies



              GLS 1996

     October 11-13, 1996 at Georgetown University



mosaic i.a. Pertaining to that form of art in which pictures and

patterns are produced by the joining together of minute pieces of

glass, stone, or other hard substances of different colors.



The theme of GLS 1996, Discourse as Mosaic: linguistic re/production

of identities and ideologies, captures the multiple ways in which

linguistic features and strategies create and reflect coherent social

meanings. We encourage papers which illuminate how local linguistic

practices produce and reproduce identities andd ideologies, and how,

in turn, identities and ideologies simultaneously constrain those

practices. The metaphor of mosaic stems from this relationship: the

interaction of small and large patterns to yield a coherent whole.

Works submitted may include, but are not limited to, such areas as

discourse in the media, the workplace, the classroom, everyday

conversation, and in medical, political, legal, religious, and other

institutional contexts. Papers should be based on natural language

data.



SUBMISSIONS. Abstracts must be received by GLS no later than Friday,

March 18, 1996. Individual presentation of papers will be 20 minutes

long with 10 additional minutes for discussion. Please send three

copies of an anonymous 500-word double-spaced abstract (hard copy

preferred, e-mail accepted). On a separate sheet, provide your name,

paper title, mailing and e-mail address, phone number, and

institutional affiliation. In addition, please submit a 100 word

summary of the paper for the conference program.



For further information:

GLS 1996

Georgetown University

Department of Linguistics, Box 571051

Washington, DC 20057-1051

voice: (202) 687-6166

gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 10:57:37 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: thinking in language



  I'm not sure what you mean by "I do not believe there is anyone who

  has acquired a language without thinking in one." Do you mean that

  the person always thinks in a language, sometimes thinks in a language,

  or has cliches (like "Help!" or "I love you") as part of their

  thinking?

 

  Vicki Rosenzweig





As I said in the post you extracted above, these people who have

aquired a language may also think outside of language. But once a

person aquires a language, s/he also thinks in language. Sure, these

thoughts include cliches, but certainly not exclusively. Every word

in our shared language has meaning. Furthermore, other conventions

of our language dictate meaning. To the extent that these meanings

are internalized ("aquired"), they facilitate thought and reason. I

do not say that they alone can do that. Saying that the sense of

smell works on our logic does not negate the fact that language does.

Our mental constructs are built on things we have attached meaning to

(e.g. words, relationships). Nothing terribly earth-shattering in

this observation. Have these words triggered thinking? They

wouldn't have (at least not in the same way) if you have not aquired

a significant amount of the same language that I have aquired.



Thanks for adding to the discussion,





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 13:43:36 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Language and Intelligence



A wonderful previous posting re: Sapir and fascinating comments here.



1) The reason for some of my (*over)generalizing has to do with being

emboldened by the Fetzer Dialogues -- the 'timeless' manifested and

manifesting breakdown of the Hopi, the same 'timeless' worldview espoused

in modern physics by David Bohm as explicate and implicate, turned out to

be basically as valid for Algonquian speakers, by their own words, as it

seems to be for Hopi, and Lakota speakers also agreed. This makes such a

generalization quite plausible at this point in history, even though not

all the families have yet been heard from. It's not like I called it a

universal or something.



2) "Whorf used to think that Hopi was structured in a way that would

conduce to quantum-math thinking..." Then Algonquian languages and Lakota

and others are similarly conducive. Again, we cannot think in English

without NP categories and nouns, but there are no nouns in the subatomic

realm -- only relationships and rhythms (think of a sound made of

distinctive features instead of 'letters'). In the languages spanning

different language families in North America that I'm most familiar with,

they are of the same 'quantum-structure' -- relationship thinking rather

than thing thinking -- as Whorf described for Hopi. Quantum physicists

must use mathematics in order to think in this relationship-thinking vs

thing-thinking way. American Indians already think that way, except

qualitatively instead of quantitatively.



3) Alas about the Cheyennes. Of course, there may be some who are being

'held back' that we wouldn't know about, as is happening in many tribes.



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Dan,

      Be careful about overgeneralizing about American Indian/Native

  American languages. They are as different among themselves as English and

  Chinese. One of the saddest facts about research on these languages is that

  we have almost no studies on how children learn them (and most are going

  fast and won't be around in another 30 years). Cheyenne, for example,

  presents a daunting computational demand, which is in my experience

  paralleled only in one South American language. But the last I heard, no

  children were any longer learning Cheyenne, so we will never know how they

  learned to master this amazing system. Whorf used to think that Hopi was

  structured in a way that would conduce to quantum-math thinking, but

  unfortunately there aren't many Hopi mathematicians.

      However, Barney Old Coyote once told me a wonderful story of how

  he was once in a 3rd-grade classroom of mixed Crow and Anglo children, and

  the teacher was doing a painful review of 1st-grade arithmetic with the

  usual apples and oranges, and the Crow kids were struggling terribly, while

  the Anglo kids were bored to death. He asked the teacher if he could inter-

  vene for a few minutes, and asked the class how they would figure the odds

  on a stick-ball game, given certain parameters. The Crow children started

  jumping up and down with the right answers, and the Anglos were totally

  flabbergasted. This of course involves some really high-level computation

  which would ordinarily be considered beyond the cognitive abilities of

  children of that age. I doubt very much that the structure of Crow had anything

  to do with it, but certainly their cultural experience did.

      When I was a grad student, and excited about the intellectual

  challenges of linguistics, I tried to convert many of my archeological (I

  used to be an archeologist, among other things) and historian friends to

  linguistics by getting them to take a course. Most found it much too

  difficult to deal with, and went back to their potsherds and manuscripts.

  I've yet to read anything in archeology or history which begins to compare

  with the cognitive demands of an article on Government and Binding theory

  .

      --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 15:32:29 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: thinking in language



The following is from a personal post (I hope you don't mind, Vicki)

by VR:



  I think in English--there's no question of that--with occasional

  bits of Spanish and non-verbal thought. The question, I think, is

  to what extent some people's mental constructs do not consist of

  words, phrases, or sentences--that is, of language in some meaningful

  sense.



I too would like to know. The problem is that any investigation of

non-verbal thought conducted via language is biased. Yet, it is

primarily through language that we are taught to do such

investigations. Intuitively (non-verbally) we know that there is a

lot going on outside of language; but it is difficult to articulate

or to quantify. Quantity identification too is a product of language

and/or culture. (We see evidence of that among peoples who do not

have words or numbers to equal 35, 187, or 659,213,445.3349777321 for

example.) New age philosophy, mystics, and prophets of all time,

relate learning outside of language. We may spiritually discern

things out of the reach of language. But how is it measured? It is

the problem of apples and oranges. How are they compared? Maybe I

would not feel so hopeless about such findings if we humans were

better at communicating complex thinking outside of language. I find

myself very motivated by my own non-language thinking, but cannot put

my words into it enough to articulate it according to language

standards. I say I do something because it feels right, not because

I logically justify it. Isn't that a form of non-language thinking?

If so, it may also be an example of the break-down between verbal and

non-verbal thinking. "It feels right" may just be another way of

saying, "The language center in me finds the reason coding

undiscernable," "In/out error," or "Unable to retrieve file." Any

ideas of how to bridge or mend these damaged sectors?



Tom



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 20:21:48 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Fwd: (ALERT) INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995 (fwd)



---------------------

Forwarded message:

From:  willi394[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu (Chris Williams)

To:   ash2ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

Date: 95-12-11 08:22:32 EST





 ========================================================================

    CAMPAIGN TO STOP THE NET CENSORSHIP LEGISLATION IN CONGRESS

 

   On Tuesday December 12, 1995, Join With Hundreds of Thousands

          Of Your Fellow Internet Users In

 

          A NATIONAL INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST

 

    PLEASE WIDELY REDISTRIBUTE THIS DOCUMENT WITH THIS BANNER INTACT

         REDISTRIBUTE ONLY UNTIL December 20, 1995

 ________________________________________________________________________

 CONTENTS

     Internet Day of Protest: Tuesday December 12, 1995

     What You Must Do On Tuesday December 12, 1995

     List of Participating Organizations

     Where Can I Learn More?

 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 INTERNET DAY OF PROTEST: TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995

 

 Outrageous proposals to censor the Internet demand that the Internet

 Community take swift and immediate action. We must stand up and let

 Congress know that we will not tolerate their attempts to destroy this

 medium! Please join hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in a

 National Day of Protest on Tuesday December 12, 1995.

 

 As you know, on Wednesday December 6, 1995, the House Conference

 Committee on Telecommunications Reform voted to impose far reaching and

 unconstitutional "indecency" restrictions on the Internet and other

 interactive media, including large commercial online services (such as

 America Online, Compuserve, and Prodigy) and smaller Internet Service

 Providers such as Panix, the Well, Echo, and Mindvox.

 

 These restrictions threaten the very existence of the Internet and

 interactive media as a viable medium for free expression, education,

 commerce. If enacted, the Internet as we know it will never be the

 same.

 

 Libraries will not be able to put any books online that might

 offend a child somewhere. No "Catcher in the Rye" or "Ulysses" on the net.

 Internet Service Providers could face criminal penalties for allowing

 children to subscribe to their Internet Services, forcing many small

 companies to simply refuse to sell their services to anyone under 18. Worst

 of all, everything you say and publish on the net will have to be "dumbed

 down" to that which is acceptable to a child.

 

 As Internet users, we simply must not allow this assault against the

 Internet and our most basic freedoms to go unchallenged.

 

 On Tuesday December 12, the organizations below are urging you to

 join us in a NATIONAL DAY OF PROTEST. The goal is to flood key members of

 the House and Senate with phone calls, faxes and email with the message

 that the Internet community WILL NOT TOLERATE Congressional attempts to

 destroy the Internet, limit our freedoms and trample on our rights.

 

 Below are the phone, fax, and email address of several key members of

 Congress on this issue and instructions on what you can do to join the

 National Day of Protest to save the Net.

 

 ______________________________________________________________________

 WHAT YOU MUST DO ON TUESDAY DECEMBER 12, 1995

 

 1. Throughout the day Tuesday December 12, please contact as many

   members of Congress on the list below as you can. If you are only

   able to make one call, contact House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Finally,

   if the Senator or Representative from your state is on the list

   below, be sure to contact him or her also.

 

 2. Urge each Member of Congress to "stop the madness". Tell them that

   they are about to pass legislation that will destroy the Internet as

   an educational and commercial medium. If you are at a loss for

   words, try the following sample communique:

 

   Sample phone call:

 

     Both the House and Senate bills designed to protect children

     from objectionable material on the Internet will actually

     destroy the Internet as an medium for education, commerce, and

     political discourse. There are other, less restrictive ways to

     address this issue.

 

     I urge you to oppose both measures being proposed in the

     conference committee. This is an important election issue to

     me.

 

   Sample letter (fax or email):

 

     The Senate conferees are considering ways to protect children

     from inappropriate material on the Internet. A vote for either

     the House or Senate proposals will result in the destruction of

     the Internet as a viable medium for free expression, education,

     commerce. Libraries will not be able to put their entire book

     collections online. Everyday people like me will risk massive

     fines and prison sentences for public discussions someone s

     somewhere might consider "indecent".

 

     There are other, less restrictive ways to protect children from

     objectionable material online. This is an important election

     issue to me.

 

 3. If you're in San Francisco, or near enough to get there, go to

   the Rally Against Censorship from Ground Zero of the Digital Revolution:

 

   WHEN: Monday, December 11, 1995 12:00 - 1:00 PM

   WHERE: South Park (between 2nd and 3rd, Bryant and Brannon) San

Francisco.

   SPEAKERS: To be announced

   BRING: Attention-grabbing posters, signs, and banners that demonstrate

     your committment to free speech and expression, and your feelings

     about Congress.

   FOR UPDATED INFORMATION (including rain info):

     http://www.hotwired.com/staff/digaman/

 

 

 ### THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT ###

 

 4. Mail a note to protest[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vtw.org to let us know you did your part.

   Although you will not receive a reply due to the number of

   anticipated responses, we'll be counting up the number of people that

   participated in the day of protest.

 

 

    P ST Name and Address      Phone      Fax

    = == ========================  ============== ==============

    R AK Stevens, Ted        1-202-224-3004 1-202-224-1044

    R AZ McCain, John        1-202-224-2235 1-602-952-8702

     senator_mccain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mccain.senate.gov

    D HI Inouye, Daniel K.     1-202-224-3934 1-202-224-6747

    R KS Dole, Robert        1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1245

    D KY Ford, Wendell H.      1-202-224-4343 1-202-224-0046

     wendell_ford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ford.senate.gov

    R MS Lott, Trent        1-202-224-6253 1-202-224-2262

    R MT Burns, Conrad R.      1-202-224-2644 1-202-224-8594

     conrad_burns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]burns.senate.gov

    D NE Exon, J. J.        1-202-224-4224 1-202-224-5213

    D SC Hollings, Ernest F.    1-202-224-6121 1-202-224-4293

     senator[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hollings.senate.gov

    R SD Pressler, Larry      1-202-224-5842 1-202-224-1259

     larry_pressler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pressler.senate.gov

    R WA Gorton, Slade       1-202-224-3441 1-202-224-9393

     senator_gorton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gorton.senate.gov

    D WV Rockefeller, John D.    1-202-224-6472 n.a.

     senator[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rockefeller.senate.gov

 

   Dist ST Name, Address, and Party   Phone      Fax

   ==== == ========================   ============== ==============

    6 GA Gingrich, Newt (R)      1-202-225-4501  1-202-225-4656

        2428 RHOB           georgia6[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hr.house.gov

    14 MI Conyers Jr., John (D)    1-202-225-5126  1-202-225-0072

        2426 RHOB           jconyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hr.house.gov

    1 CO Schroeder, Patricia (D)   1-202-225-4431  1-202-225-5842

        2307 RHOB

    18 TX Jackson-Lee, Sheila (D)   1-202-225-3816 1-202-225-3317

        1520 LHOB

    6 TN Gordon, Bart (D)       1-202-225-4231  1-202-225-6887

        2201 RHOB

 

 

 4. Forward this alert to all of your wired friends.

 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 WHERE CAN I LEARN MORE?

 

 At this moment, there are several organizations with WWW sites that now

 have, or will have, information about the net censorship legislation and

 the National Day Of Protest:

 

 American Civil Liberties Union (ftp://ftp.aclu.org/aclu/)

 Center for Democracy and Technology (http://www.cdt.org/)

 Electronic Frontier Foundation (http://www.eff.org/)

 Electronic Privacy Information Center (http://www.epic.org/)

 Wired Magazine (http://www.hotwired.com/special/indecent/)

 Voters Telecommunications Watch (http://www.vtw.org/)

 

 ________________________________________________________________________

 LIST OF PARTICIPATING ORGANIZATIONS

 

 In order to use the net more effectively, several organizations have

 joined forces on a single Congressional net campaign to stop the

 Communications Decency Act.

 

 

 American Civil Liberties Union * American Communication Association *

 American Council for the Arts * Arts & Technology Society * Association

 of Alternative Newsweeklies * biancaTroll productions * Boston

 Coalition for Freedom of Expression * Californians Against Censorship

 Together * Center For Democracy And Technology * Centre for Democratic

 Communications * Center for Public Representation * Citizen's Voice -

 New Zealand * Cloud 9 Internet *Computer Communicators Association *

 Computel Network Services * Computer Professionals for Social

 Responsibility * Cross Connection * Cyber-Rights Campaign * CyberQueer

 Lounge * Dorsai Embassy * Dutch Digital Citizens' Movement * ECHO

 Communications Group, Inc. * Electronic Frontier Canada * Electronic

 Frontier Foundation * Electronic Frontier Foundation - Austin *

 Electronic Frontiers Australia * Electronic Frontiers Houston *

 Electronic Frontiers New Hampshire * Electronic Privacy Information

 Center * Feminists For Free Expression * First Amendment Teach-In *

 Florida Coalition Against Censorship * FranceCom, Inc. Web Advertising

 Services * Friendly Anti-Censorship Taskforce for Students * Hands

 Off! The Net * Inland Book Company * Inner Circle Technologies, Inc. *

 Inst. for Global Communications * Internet On-Ramp, Inc. * Internet

 Users Consortium * Joint Artists' and Music Promotions Political Action

 Committee * The Libertarian Party * Marijuana Policy Project *

 Metropolitan Data Networks Ltd. * MindVox * MN Grassroots Party *

 National Bicycle Greenway * National Campaign for Freedom of Expression

 * National Coalition Against Censorship * National Gay and Lesbian Task

 Force * National Public Telecomputing Network * National Writers Union

 * Oregon Coast RISC * Panix Public Access Internet * People for the

 American Way * Republican Liberty Caucus * Rock Out Censorship *

 Society for Electronic Access * The Thing International BBS Network *

 The WELL * Voters Telecommunications Watch

 

 (Note: All 'Electronic Frontier' organizations are independent entities,

  not EFF chapters or divisions.)

 

 ________________________________________________________________________

     End Alert

 ========================================================================

 

 

 

 --

 

 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 DON'T LET THOSE LOSERS IN CONGRESS DESTROY FREE SPEECH ON THE NET!

 Check out the Voters Telecommunications Watch - http://www.vtw.org

 TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, is a national day of protest...do your part!

 

 

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Dec 1995 to 11 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 15 messages totalling 409 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. name's the same

 2. Spammer exposed

 3. American Indian languages and thought

 4. can/can't (4)

 5. root beer preferences (2)

 6. NEW COKE

 7. pop and soda (4)

 8. New word of the year (eponym division)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:03:21 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: name's the same



The fundamental problem is, as we all know but rarely admit (who would hire

us if they believed it), there is not and never has been such a thing as

"the English language." But let's not tell anyone.

    Variation is one thing, Don; irreversible total systemic loss of

a distinction is another. It is really dysfunctional. Says something about

the peculiar illogical habit of people over time to try to make communication

more difficult.

    Rudy



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 00:18:42 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Spammer exposed



 From:  "Kevin Jay Lipsitz, President"  krazykev[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KJL.COM 

 Subject: ----  GREAT DEAL!!!: $295.00 - LIKE NEW CREDIT CARD TERMINAL WITH

      PRINTER!!!

 

 Could you new or expanding business use an (extra) credit card terminal for

 your new or busy location?



Everyone on the list might be interested to know that this Kevin Lipsitz is

the spammer responsible for the magazine list spams. You know the one where

she (sometimes he) is a college student and has been real satisfied with the

magazines she's bought, and then proceeds to list a gazillion magazines to

clog up our list.



He usually uses fake addresses so you can't spam him back, even maliciously

using the addresses of those who have complained about him, so that when

people send back spams thinking they are clogging his mailbox, they are

actually clogging the mailbox of an innocent person. However, this apparently

is his real email address. I just sent him back a copy of his magazine spam.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Dec 1995 22:56:31 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: American Indian languages and thought



    I'm not sure what is meant by the statement that speakers of (some)

American Indian languages don't use entification in their communication.

There is a difference between "world view" and the grammar of a language

one talks about it in. Relationship is of prime importance to Koreans, for

example, and the hierarchical social structure is encoded in the grammar in

a way that is untranslatable in English, but one can use the same kind of

GB tree-diagrams for Korean as for Turkish or English. The same diagrams

and UG principles-and-parameters work as well for many American Indian

languages, although I have heard it argued that they don't work well for

the Northern Caddoan languages (but have not looked closely to see whether

the claim can be disputed).

    As anthropologists have long argued from the "culture area" concept,

even pre-dating it going back to Boas, the same language (or closely related

variants) can mediate radically different cultures, and world-views, and the

same culture/world-view can be mediated by totally different and differently

structured languages. Language structure can influence thinking so some

extent, and can facilitate or inhibit expression of certain things (that's

one reason there are different computer languages), but English, like other

languages, basically deals with relationships, too. That's why the kind

of grammatical analysis that Fillmore introduced (Case Grammar) and Chafe's

variation on it, remain so useful and revealing of cross-language uniformities.

Adopting that more abstract model (further evolved by Chomsky in not always

helpful ways) enables us to see beyond the apparent great differences of

surface grammatical differences. There are real differences regarding the

aspects of events that languages can express, or how they can express them,

as Chinese, for example, has no tense, but only aspect. Even German, as

closely related to English as it is, does not make the distinction we do

between present and present progressive "tense" (really aspect). But I would

want to see clear grammatical evidence that language X could express

relationships and language Y could not, or that language X could not

express entification whereas language Y obligatorily did so. From there it

would be necessary to provide empirical evidence that the structural

differences enhanced or precluded certain kinds of thought.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 02:44:24 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



When international students have asked about American pronunciations of

'can' and 'can't' -- complaining that they don't hear a -t -- I point out

that the vowel in 'can' lasts a little longer than the one in 'can't'.

They find that explanation useful.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:03:03 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



Huh Don? You must mean in foreigner talk, like [khae~n]. My ordinary (and

not even my most allegro form) of 'can' ain't got no vowel atall [khn.].

(With the period after [n] I am trying to show that the [n] is a 'syllabic'

one.)

My 'can't' at the same stylistic level is rather more stressed, and, as a

result, its nucleus is a tad longer.

('Tad' is not a technical phonetic term.)

No wonder them international students that come up here from your place do

everthing bass-ackwards. I thought it was some 'show-me' shit.

Dennis



 When international students have asked about American pronunciations of

 'can' and 'can't' -- complaining that they don't hear a -t -- I point out

 that the vowel in 'can' lasts a little longer than the one in 'can't'.

 They find that explanation useful.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 08:46:27 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



Don writes:



 When international students have asked about American pronunciations of

 'can' and 'can't' -- complaining that they don't hear a -t -- I point out

 that the vowel in 'can' lasts a little longer than the one in 'can't'.

 They find that explanation useful.   DMLance



Or you can refer them to Hans Marchand's "Remarks about English Negative

SEntences", American Studies 20 (1938): 198-204, who observes that post-

auxiliary negation tends to be signalled more by vowel quality, stress, and

rhythm than by the presence of a segmental element. In fact,Jespersen's "Nega-

tion in English" (1917, p. 11) also contains this remark:



   If we contrast an extremely common pronunciation of the two opposite

   statements "I can do it" and "I cannot [sic] do it", the negative

   notion will be found to be expressed by nothing else but a slight

   change of the vowel [ai kaen du: it | ai ka:n du: it].



Jespersen is describing a different dialect from mine, but the point is that

vowel quality and length and phrasal rhythm is more of a cue than the presence

of a [t]. Where the rhythmic distinction neutralizes is just when the modal is

contrastively stressed: he CAN come/he CAN'T come. (I discuss this on p. 458 of

my 1989 book _A Natural History of Negation_, where I note I've occasionally

heard the repair query "can-yes or can-T'?")





        Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 11:41:55 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



Seth,



Where exactly is "hereabouts"?



Laurie



On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  Dog 'n' Suds was pretty good. Hasn't been one hereabouts since 1957.

 

 

   Hey Seth,

   

   Ever try "Dog 'n' Suds" root beer? So good, you almost get a buzz off it.

   

   I guess this conversation has drifted far away from the original dialect

   focus, but I just wanted to provide *my* opinion on root beer. :)

   

   Laurie Bowman

   Dept. of Linguistics

   University of Arizona, Tucson

   bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu

   

   On Thu, 7

   Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

   

     I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized I had

     just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on various root

     beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

     good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again) with

     a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.

    

     IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's

  in NY

     used to.)

    

   

   

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 12:05:41 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



Larry,

    Thanks for the references. Hans Marchand has always amazed me with

his scholarly depth, but he is largely ignored when leading names are

mentioned. Don has forgotten his linguistic roots: in Texas and elsewhere

in the South and South Midland (I'm not trying to pick a fight here), the

vowel of  can't  is /aey/ or is raised by the following glide to /ey/. As

the nuclei are different even under stress, there ain't no confusion.

    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:24:54 -0500

From:  RACHEL A CALDWELL  racald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: NEW COKE



A friend of mine recently talked with a guy who works with the company

Nutra Sweet. He told my friend to stop drinking it in pop. There is a

concern that it contributes to alzheimers. He says that it is the only

chemical they have ever found that goes from one side of the brain to the

other. He says they have no idea why it does this and what all it may do

to the brain. Beware this sounds dangerous.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:37:24 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



No, Jim, Coke and Pepsi are not the same thing. I'm sorry, but I can

tell a difference, a big one. And I prefer Coke. A minor point perhaps,

but important to me . . . and Coke stockholders.



On Wed, 6 Dec 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:



  What gripes me everytime, is to go into a fast food restaurant, order their

  equivalent of a "happy-meal", ask for a coke to go with it, and be asked in

  return, "Is Pepsi OK?" Of course Pepsi's OK, it's the same thing isn't it?

 

  -- Jim

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:41:16 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Sorry this is late with regards to this topic, but I'm catching up with my

mail after the end of the semester rush.



How many southerners out there use the term "Co-cola" in re to Coke. Not

Coca-cola, but Co-cola. I find a lot of my older friends and relatives,

folks who grew up in the 30s and 40s use this term. Is it just an NC thing.



Curious.

Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:58:31 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: New word of the year (eponym division)



I picked this up off a computer humor mailing list, and thought I'd pass

it along. Unfortunately, there are enough people doing this that the

verb "to fuhrman" may be needed.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



  Message-Id:  199512121838.NAA15059[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]k12-nis-2.bbn.com 

  Date: Fri, 8 Dec 95 17:08:38 -0500

  To: silent-tristero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com

  From: blamb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]meitca.com (Bill Lambert)

  Subject: Re: a new word for you; please use it immediately

  Sender: silent-tristero-approval[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com

  Precedence: bulk

  Reply-To: blamb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]meitca.com (Bill Lambert)

  Status: R

  

  

  At 1:01 AM 12/08/95, t byfield wrote:

   I invented a new word yesterday and thought I would share it with you.

   

       somnblabulist -  someone who talks in his or her sleep

   

    From which, I, being the King of My New Word, derive the following:

   

       blabule -  primary unit of blab

  

  I like the 'blabule', but could you please tell us the pronounciation

  of the first word? I hardly ever use words I can't say after 3 beers :-)

  

  [Being able to coin new words is one of the 4 basic freedoms, along with

  freedom of religion, the freedom of screwing the consenting adult of your

  choice, and the freedom of choosing your own network provider.]

  

  I also coined a word recently that I hope people will bring into

  common usage (not invented... we can't really invent words

  because the nature of words is that they define existing concepts

  that need the benefit of convenient shorthand descriptions).

  The word is "to fuhrman" (v.) and is derived from the name of

  LAPD All-star detective Mark Fuhrman. To fuhrman is to exercise

  racial prejudice or harrassment against mixed race couples, as in:

  "We were fuhrmaned on the subway when this guy called my wife

  a (ethnic_slur_of_choice) lover." The word is catching on and has

  been used by several people besides myself in the soc.couples.intercultural

  ng.

  

  I got this idea from the Japanese using the name of ex-President

  Bush as a verb root meaning "to vomit disgracefully".

  

  Hmm... I wonder how many new words tristero folks can develop

  based on their favorite well known personalities.

  

  

  

  



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 16:01:53 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



  How many southerners out there use the term "Co-cola" in re to Coke. Not

  Coca-cola, but Co-cola. I find a lot of my older friends and relatives,

  folks who grew up in the 30s and 40s use this term. Is it just an NC thing.



It's definitely not just an NC thing. It's quite common among older

Mississippians. I don't think my father (born in Jackson in 1907) ever

said anything other than "cocola." I (born in Jackson in 1943) almost

always say "coke," although I have probably said "cocola" at some point

in my life. I think that's pretty typical of those two generations.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:01:34 -0500

From:  Stephen  lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



 Seth,

 

 Where exactly is "hereabouts"?

 

 Laurie

 

 On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

 

   Dog 'n' Suds was pretty good. Hasn't been one hereabouts since 1957.

  

  

    Hey Seth,

    

    Ever try "Dog 'n' Suds" root beer? So good, you almost get a buzz off it.

    

    I guess this conversation has drifted far away from the original dialect

    focus, but I just wanted to provide *my* opinion on root beer. :)

    

    Laurie Bowman

    Dept. of Linguistics

    University of Arizona, Tucson

    bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu

    

    On Thu, 7

    Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

    

      I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized

I had

      just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on

various root

      beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

      good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again)

with

      a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.

     

      IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's

   in NY

      used to.)

     

    I think Seth has far too much time on his hands

    

  

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Dec 1995 21:39:32 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



    Before we go around the circle again on "Co-cola", any latecomers

might want to consult the ADS-L archives, where various communicants have

previously weighed in on the topic (was it about a year ago?).

    Though my earlier reaction to the reported form was that I had not

heard it, I realized that, on consulting my inner speaker, that [pace the

claim that English lacks geminate consonants] I would informally say

/kowk.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/, with the dot representing the syllable boundary. I wonder how

many of those represented ORTHOGRAPHICALLY with "co-cola" may actually

say/have said /kowk.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ rather than the indicated /kow.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Dec 1995 to 12 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 285 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pop and soda (3)

 2. root beer preferences

 3. non-linguistic thinking

 4. NEW WORDS, Please!

 5. Proverbial Knowledge (3)

 6. ho ho ho



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 00:48:05 -0500

From:  Robert Swets  bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Bob Haas wrote:



  How many southerners out there use the term "Co-cola" in re to Coke. Not

  Coca-cola, but Co-cola. I find a lot of my older friends and relatives,

  folks who grew up in the 30s and 40s use this term. Is it just an NC thing.

 

  Curious.

  Bob



It's all just pop to me.

--Another Bob

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 08:23:44 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Good shot Rudy! Your comment awakened in me the memory (but see below for

its possible sociolinguistic inaccuracy) that the geminate pronunciation

was the one that I used (in the 40's in Louisville) and the open syllable

form was the one I associated with older (and, sad to say) 'hickish'

speakers. In fact, the nongeminate pronunciation was one I (and

schoolmates) used (along with 'hep' for 'help,' 'a'-prefixing, etc...) as a

stereotypical imitation. This raises the spectre of the possibility of our

exaggerating our own pronunciation as a stereotype of the aways farther-off

'dialect' speakers. Perhaps the open syllable form exists ohnly there -- in

dialect 'performances.' (I think that is not the case here, but it is

always something to watch out for. Remember there are two great

sociolinguistic laws [unless you are after attitudes, not accuracy of

linguistic detail itself: Law #1: Never claim to know what you say. Law#2:

Never claim to know what anybody else says either. I guess if we all

followed these laws we'd have to shut this list down, huh?)

Dennis

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



     Before we go around the circle again on "Co-cola", any latecomers

 might want to consult the ADS-L archives, where various communicants have

 previously weighed in on the topic (was it about a year ago?).

     Though my earlier reaction to the reported form was that I had not

 heard it, I realized that, on consulting my inner speaker, that [pace the

 claim that English lacks geminate consonants] I would informally say

 /kowk.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/, with the dot representing the syllable boundary. I wonder how

 many of those represented ORTHOGRAPHICALLY with "co-cola" may actually

 say/have said /kowk.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ rather than the indicated /kow.kowl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/?

     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 10:50:28 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: root beer preferences



I wonder what all this stuff below has to do with the American Dialect

Society. I wonder if you people who want to chat about lthe flavors of

root beer and hot dogs couldn't maybe just send private messages and not

clog up my board with your personal communications?



On Tue, 12 Dec 1995, Stephen wrote:



   Seth,

   

   Where exactly is "hereabouts"?

   

   Laurie

    

   On Sat, 9 Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

   

     Dog 'n' Suds was pretty good. Hasn't been one hereabouts since 1957.

    

    

      Hey Seth,

      

      Ever try "Dog 'n' Suds" root beer? So good, you almost get a buzz off it.

      

      I guess this conversation has drifted far away from the original dialect

      focus, but I just wanted to provide *my* opinion on root beer. :)

      

      Laurie Bowman

      Dept. of Linguistics

      University of Arizona, Tucson

      bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu

      

      On Thu, 7

      Dec 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

      

        I thought IBC root beer was great, but after several months realized

  I had

        just been taken in by their neat bottle. I did a taste test on

  various root

        beers and found A & W to be among the best, and Dad's Old Fashioned pretty

        good. IBC was mediocre and the world's worst is FANTA (by Coke again)

  with

        a close tie for second worst with Shasta & Faygo.

       

        IBC is the only company I know that still makes Sarsparilla. (Hoffmann's

     in NY

        used to.)

       

      I think Seth has far too much time on his hands

      

    

   

   

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 12:48:34 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: non-linguistic thinking



On Mon, 11 Dec 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  If we thought in language, how would we learn language? Simple as that!

  How in anyone's imagination could Helen Keller have caught on when her

  caretaker  spelled out 'water' if Helen had to already have language in

  order to think?



Boy, it looks like such a tautology when 'language' and 'human language'

are taken to mean exactly the same thing! Which is, of course, what most

linguists do when they talk about language.



That is, even if there's some evolutionary communicating base that we're

a part of, which gives us intelligence to the level of dogs or chimps

(which is not to be sneezed at!), we refuse to call it language, and

therefore 'whatever it is' cannot be pulled in to an answer about what

Helen Keller had that allowed her to learn (the systems of human) language.



Then, if course, there's that monolithic noun 'language' itself -- a

problem Dan Slobin pointed out in his "Thinking for Speaking" article.

That is, dealing with static nouns like 'language' and 'thought' can

drive you crazy (perhaps because they're really processes and not

things?), so you change to the more gerundy forms and then you can say

with confidence that ONE kind of thinking is called "thinking for

speaking", the kind of thinking you do when you are figuratively

'on-line' figuring out what to say while you are saying it -- and in that

case it is also clear that the structure of the language highly shapes

the thinking that is going on at the time.



So perhaps Ms. Keller was already thinking in other ways, and the

'thinking for speaking' kind of thinking was added to her repertoire with

her discovery of 'water'.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 15:55:01 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: NEW WORDS, Please!



Time is flying by. ADS Winter '95 Meeting is fast approaching. Please

forward candidates for Word(s) of the Year to:



Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



The list is growing and we need YOUR candidates.



Happy Holidays to all!

David K. Barnhart



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 13:39:28 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Proverbial Knowledge



Part of communicative competence includes a knowledge of proverbs. Thus,

many English speakers have heard the following proverb: "You pays your money

and you takes your choice." This is listed in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, 3rd ed., 1979:9. Today I heard a variant of this from a native speaker

in which the word "chances" occurred for "choice." How many have heard this

version? Are there any other permutations with this proverb? Does anyone

have other examples of proverbs with variations in English or in any other

language?

My theory is this. Proverbs are universal, and native speakers change them

according to well-defined rules ("chances" is monosyllabic and begins with

a voiceless affricate, etc.).

I will post a summary of examples sent to me or the network + reasons/

explications of the phenomenon.

Does anyone know of any research on this?

--Alan Kaye--

Linguistics

Calif. State Univ., Fullerton --- akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 18:35:15 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: ho ho ho



Couldn't resist sharing this around the holiday season: While lining the

students up in the hall, one first grader pointed to a bulletin board at the

end of the hall (santa claus with a merry smile). He said, "Ms Broom, that's

a dirty word." I turned and tried to figure out what he was pointing at and th

then noticed the lettering on the board: HO HO HO. I think I just said,

"Hmmm"  Hmmmm.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:43:57 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



The universality of proverbs is pretty well-known among folklorists (e.g.,

Mieder), and even some linguists have had a look at the universality of

idioms (although the 'big' works on this point leave me at the moment).



I have your proverb in the 'changed' (or 'variant') form. I guess I thought

it was the original. I always folk-ethymologized it be a sort of gambling

proverb.



What is it really (since you seem to have a handle on the original form)?



Dennis (always had it wrong but still a native speaker) Preston

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



 Part of communicative competence includes a knowledge of proverbs. Thus,

 many English speakers have heard the following proverb: "You pays your money

 and you takes your choice." This is listed in the Oxford Dictionary of

 Quotations, 3rd ed., 1979:9. Today I heard a variant of this from a native

 speaker

 in which the word "chances" occurred for "choice." How many have heard this

 version? Are there any other permutations with this proverb? Does anyone

 have other examples of proverbs with variations in English or in any other

 language?

 My theory is this. Proverbs are universal, and native speakers change them

 according to well-defined rules ("chances" is monosyllabic and begins with

 a voiceless affricate, etc.).

 I will post a summary of examples sent to me or the network + reasons/

 explications of the phenomenon.

 Does anyone know of any research on this?

 --Alan Kaye--

 Linguistics

 Calif. State Univ., Fullerton --- akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 20:47:51 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Dennis,

    Thanks for laying down the law! Those should be attached to your

signature line to remind us everytime. Lots of marriages have been dissolved

because of violations of #2. My all-time favorite example of #1 was

produced by Archibald Hill, who stopped in mid-sentence in a lecture and,

to the puzzlement of all of those in the class, announced "I did say it!"

When he realized that we didn't have a clue as to what he was talking about,m

he explained, "I've always said I never pronounced  mirror  as /myUr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/, and

I just did!"

    Stay warm -- it broke a record here today, set in 1950: it was 79.

        Rudy

        --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 23:05:01 -0800

From:  Al Futrell  awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



Alan S. Kaye wrote:

  "You pays your money and you takes your choice." ...

  "chances" occurred for "choice." How many have heard this

  version?



"Chances" is the only way I have ever heard it.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Dec 1995 to 13 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 38 messages totalling 1025 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Proverbial Knowledge (15)

 2. co'cola

 3. Proverbial knowledge

 4. Question-begging (2)

 5.  No subject given 

 6. Chances and 2nd per -s

 7. Eats its head off (2)

 8. pop and soda (3)

 9. NEW WORDS, Please!

 10. Hens' Teeth

 11. Videos dealing with topics in sociolinguistics (2)

 12. Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited (6)

 13. proverbial knowledge

 14. Unauth Index to "American...



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 21:53:24 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



Re Dennis' question on "You pays your money..."

   It goes back to the last century and it was a proverb not having

   anything to do with gambling, but rather with peepshows.



Incidentally, anyone have the answer on the -s for "pays" and "takes",

which all my ESL students correct to "pay" and "take" saying that

the proverb contains 2 grammatical errors.



Alan Kaye, Linguistics, CSU, Fullerton, CA 92634

akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 00:49:00 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: co'cola



DInIs P said:



  Good shot Rudy! Your comment awakened in me the memory (but see below for

  its possible sociolinguistic inaccuracy) that the geminate pronunciation

  was the one that I used (in the 40's in Louisville) and the open syllable

  form was the one I associated with older (and, sad to say) 'hickish'

  speakers. In fact, the nongeminate pronunciation was one I (and

  schoolmates) used (along with 'hep' for 'help,' 'a'-prefixing, etc...) as a

  stereotypical imitation.



On one of the Usenet groups I waste time with (have to do *something* when the

ADS digest has fewer than 65 messages on root beer and the like), I noticed

the spelling "coke cola" in a posting that appeared to have been proofread.

Alas, there were no clues as to the poster's home region, but this certainly

seems like a non-linguist's attempt to represent a geminate.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Dec 1995 22:01:50 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



It occurred to me that I should have cited the full proverb once again:



"You pays your money and you takes your choice."

An old teacher of mine (from NY) always used to say it as:

"You pays your money and you takes your cherse." Was this idiolectal or

dialectal? I always thought it was the former (and indicative of his

sense of humor). He recently passed away, so I can't ask him.

Alan Kaye

akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:53:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen"  K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM 

Subject: Re: Proverbial knowledge



   "You pays your money . . ."



I have always used and heard "chances."



But I just asked a British colleague who says, "You pays your money and you

takes your PICK."



Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 06:17:37 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English"  E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



 Subj: Proverbial Knowledge



 "You pays your money and you takes your choice.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



  I always heard it as "takes yer cherce"--a `pseudo-dialectal' pronunciation,

mimicing, I guess, the same folks who thought "ersters" were good for the

"verse." [Down East Yankees?]

  I imagine the pronunciation was intended to convey "folk" authority to the

maxim.

  When all the versions are in, may we also have some glosses, as well as

some discourse situations in which would be appropriate? I've just realized

that I would fare ill were it presented as an item of a psychological test

assessing metaphorical thinking.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:40:25 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Question-begging



I'm passing this along from a non-ADS colleague, who wonders whether anyone

else has noticed what she calls



 'this new quasi literal use of "beg the question" to mean something like

'strongly prompt one to ask the question', as in e.g. "Your lateness begs

the question 'What kept you?'"? I think there was an occurrence of it in

The American President (which we saw (and at least I enjoyed) last

weekend), and I also heard one last night on TV.'



I haven't noticed it myself, but it strikes me as a plausible addition to add

to our stock of folk-etymologized collocations and proverbs.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:28:30 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Question-begging



 

  I'm passing this along from a non-ADS colleague, who wonders whether anyone

  else has noticed what she calls

 

   'this new quasi literal use of "beg the question" to mean something like

  'strongly prompt one to ask the question', as in e.g. "Your lateness begs

  the question 'What kept you?'"? I think there was an occurrence of it in

  The American President (which we saw (and at least I enjoyed) last

  weekend), and I also heard one last night on TV.'

 

  I haven't noticed it myself, but it strikes me as a plausible addition to add

  to our stock of folk-etymologized collocations and proverbs.

  --Larry



I've noticed an increasing use of this over the last few years,

and we have a few citations for it. I think there was a

discussion about it on alt.usage.english a few months ago as

well.



Some general questioning has suggested that most younger people

don't even realize what the original sense is.



Jesse Sheidlower

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:22:17 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



I've always heard it as "you pays your money and you takes your choice"

(New York City and surroundings).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:18:43 -0600

From:  Dorothy Wurster  dwurster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSD.UWM.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 





unsubscribe



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 09:38:27 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chances and 2nd per -s



Count me as one for taking "chances."



 Incidentally, anyone have the answer on the -s for "pays" and "takes",

 which all my ESL students correct to "pay" and "take" saying that

 the proverb contains 2 grammatical errors.



As a native south-sider of the Windy City,

I'm well accustomed to hearing the -s

"conjugation" for second person. Thus it

sounds rather natural to me. Possibly the

proverb was coined in an environment where

that was grammatical.



Examples:



If ya gots to go, we can go.

Ya knows what ya knows.

etc.



Incidentally, I have a suspicion that this is

related to the plural-esque "yas" that is used

with some modals and auxiliaries, where an -s

conjugation is "ungrammatical." Note: I say

"plural-esque" because it only looks like a

plural: it doesn't have to refer to more than

one person.



Examples:



Yas don't have to go if yas don't want to.

Are yas sure about that? (read "dat")

etc.





Hey, look! Another thread!



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:44:37 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



Ditto (at the risk of being labeled a dittohead).

          Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I've always heard it as "you pays your money and you takes your choice"

(New York City and surroundings).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:25:46 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Eats its head off



A friend of mine asked if anyone knows of the origin of the

expression "Eats its head off." His reference comes from the

movie Black Beauty. Of course, we also say, "eating your head off."



"Talk your head off" seems a little different.



I suspect there might be some interesting story behind this expression.

Any insights?





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:25:44 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



My own brain tells me that the proverb is "You pays your money and you

takes your chance." But see Bartlett Jere Whiting, MODERN PROVERBS AND

SAYINGS, for a whole list of variants, among which ". . . choices" seems

to be the predominant form. I don't find the proverb in Mieder et al. at

all, but maybe I didn't look hard enough. (Many of you may not know that

there are whole books devoted to nothing but the listing of proverbs.)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 08:44:53 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



I know it as "chances". I've also heard the variant "You pay your nickel,

you take your chances."

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Alan S. Kaye wrote:



  Re Dennis' question on "You pays your money..."

    It goes back to the last century and it was a proverb not having

    anything to do with gambling, but rather with peepshows.

 

  Incidentally, anyone have the answer on the -s for "pays" and "takes",

  which all my ESL students correct to "pay" and "take" saying that

  the proverb contains 2 grammatical errors.

 

  Alan Kaye, Linguistics, CSU, Fullerton, CA 92634

  akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:52:51 -0600

From:  Miriam Meyers  mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUS1.MSUS.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



I grew up in Atlanta (b. 1941), and we all said Co-cola. I no longer live

in the South, no longer say Co-cola, but it is very much my native dialect.



 Sorry this is late with regards to this topic, but I'm catching up with my

 mail after the end of the semester rush.

 

 How many southerners out there use the term "Co-cola" in re to Coke. Not

 Coca-cola, but Co-cola. I find a lot of my older friends and relatives,

 folks who grew up in the 30s and 40s use this term. Is it just an NC thing.

 

 Curious.

 Bob



Miriam Meyers

Metropolitan State University

mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:47:43 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: NEW WORDS, Please!



David:



My nominations are "cool" (also spelled kul) and "hey." I haven't decided

yet which is my leading candidate, and which is Ms./Mr. congeniality, and

probably won't till I write up my own annual WOTY piece next week. I can

say that one shining light early in the year has clearly dropped out of the

running, "Windows95." See you in Chicago.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:43:09 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Eats its head off



   The following comes from the citations collected by Peter Tamony.



   "The hard school of experience is the only one in which some people

   will learn . . . . they will discover when they have kept the produce

   four or five years and when after it has 'eaten its head off' several

   times . . . . that a stallion of inferior breeding is the most

   expensive animal a breeder can use."

    Breeder and Sportsman, San Francisco, 16 November 1889, XV, 20,

   p.411.



   Laws Relating to Innkeepers. "By the custom of London and Exeter,

   'when a horse eats out the price of his head,' namely, when the cost

   of keep exceeds value, the host may have him as his own."

    Encyclopedia Britannica, 11th edition, volume 14, page 576D.



   Hope this helps.



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Eats its head off

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at internet-ext

Date:  12/14/95 10:25 AM





A friend of mine asked if anyone knows of the origin of the

expression "Eats its head off." His reference comes from the

movie Black Beauty. Of course, we also say, "eating your head off."



"Talk your head off" seems a little different.



I suspect there might be some interesting story behind this expression.

Any insights?





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:08:45 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Here's an interesting variant. At the office Xmas party yesterday,

one of the people I was sitting with asked the waiter for "a soda."

He went away, and came back in a minute with a glass of plain club

soda. She was annoyed, because she wanted Sprite. (They look the same,

so she took a sip before realizing the error.) It was sorted out,

but I find it interesting that the waiter assumed that "a soda" was

plain soda water; I think my co-worker expected him to ask her what

kind.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 13:14:39 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Well, yes, but...



----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Here's an interesting variant. At the office Xmas party yesterday,

one of the people I was sitting with asked the waiter for "a soda."

He went away, and came back in a minute with a glass of plain club

soda. She was annoyed, because she wanted Sprite. (They look the same,

so she took a sip before realizing the error.) It was sorted out,

but I find it interesting that the waiter assumed that "a soda" was

plain soda water; I think my co-worker expected him to ask her what

kind.



Vicki Rosenzweig

__________________________________

...if was basically a bartender, it might be understandable. After all, if

you ask for a scotch and soda, you expect him to siphon in some seltzer or

club soda without asking whether you wanted Sprite, root beer, orange, ...



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 10:47:49 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"



Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:00:10 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman  bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



  One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"



Oh, my God! I thought my mother was the only one who said that.



Some other Mom-isms:



"At the end of every rainbow is a silver lining."

"He left his footprint across the face of time." (Ouch!)

"If you can't beat 'em, forget about it."



Laurie Bowman

Department of Linguistics

University of Arizona, Tucson

bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:03:02 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Joseph B. Monda wrote:



  One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"

 

  Joe Monda

 



Have you heard more than one person use that variant? It sounds like a

malapropism, along the lines of one used by my childhood buddy's mother:

"That's a horse of a different feather."



 From my own family: "Like throwing pearls before sows' ears," and "[it's

so difficult it's] like pulling hens' teeth."



To my knowledge, these never spread beyond the coiner, except for passing

into my family's permanent store of humourous usage.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 11:13:21 -0800

From:  William Seaburg  seaburg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Hens' Teeth



On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



  "[it's

  so difficult it's] like pulling hens' teeth."

 

  To my knowledge, these never spread beyond the coiner, except for passing

  into my family's permanent store of humourous usage.

 



This was (and still is) one of my mother's favorite proverbial

expressions. I don't know where she learned it--probably from her mother

(my grandmother was from Missouri, my mother was born and raised in Montana).



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:39:44 -0600

From:  Rick Arons  RARONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TINY.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU 

Subject: Videos dealing with topics in sociolinguistics



I'm looking to see if folks have any recommendations for videos which I could

use in an intro to sociolinguistics course which I'll be teaching. The students

have no background in linguistics at all, and anything of interest to a

layperson could work well. Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Many

thanks!



Rick Arons

Modern and Classical Languages

St. John's Univ.

Collegeville, MN 55408



rarons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csbsju.edu







"Before Prozac, my relationship with God felt like an arranged

marriage. Now I have to decide if I want to spend the rest of

my life in a relationship with this person."



                 -Harper's, November 1995



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:49:54 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



 Ditto (at the risk of being labeled a dittohead).

           Larry

 ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

 I've always heard it as "you pays your money and you takes your choice"

 (New York City and surroundings).

 

 Vicki Rosenzweig



I've NEVER heard "choice" or "choices" until now. Always "chances"

NW Illinois, Central Colorado.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 12:57:04 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



That's the way my dad said it (from Arkansas).



On Wed, 13 Dec 1995, Alan S. Kaye wrote:



  It occurred to me that I should have cited the full proverb once again:

 

  "You pays your money and you takes your choice."

  An old teacher of mine (from NY) always used to say it as:

  "You pays your money and you takes your cherse." Was this idiolectal or

  dialectal? I always thought it was the former (and indicative of his

  sense of humor). He recently passed away, so I can't ask him.

  Alan Kaye

  akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:13:30 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Videos dealing with topics in sociolinguistics



There is no finer filmed intro to language variation, I think, than

"American Tongues" (ca. 55 minutes). Get it from New American Media. It's

head and shoulders above the rest -- all filmed on location. It's

accurate AND occasionally funny. WHen I show it to Ling 200 students they

invariably ask me to show it again and let them bring their friends.



I have prepared an unauthorized detailed index of contents which I would

be willing to share with the list, if there is interest. Or perhaps someone

else also has prepared one and we could put them together?



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 16:39:28 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Unauthorized Index to Contents of "American Tongues"



Compiled by Bethany Dumas, UTK English Department, 1994



1.   Southern (Black English?)

2.   Mary had a little lamb

    Its fleece was white as snow

    And everywhere that Mary went

    The lamb was sure to go

    6 speakers: white male, white female, (Penn Dutch?), white

    male, black male child, white female, white female

3.   Ranch talk--Texas

4.   Northern cities--

5.   Black female teenagers

6.   Speakers about other dialects

7.   Student actors (Shakespeare, etc.)

8.   Institutional speech (sales talk, computers, etc.--jargon)

9.   Church singing

10.   Tangier Island ("Tangiermen") ("I figure I sound just like

    Walter Cronkite.")

11.   Comments on settlement history of USA (fewer regional

    distinctions east of the Mississippi)

12.   Roger W. Shuy (Georgetown University)

13.   Style differences

     Kentucky radio call-in program ("I'm just a plain old

    hillbilly.") (Cratis Williams) (He may could wear it in a 8

    1/2.")

     Ohio ("Midwest--straight American, bland") (We don't talk

    funny, but if you want funny, go about 70 miles south."

     Texas (Most Westerners in their speaking ... are more

    open, more forthright.")

14.   Foreign language influence (Louisiana French Creole)

15.   New York City deli

16.   Vocabulary differences--cabinet (RI), gumband, pau hana,

    jambalaya, antigogglin, snickelfritz, schlep

    [Today we could add words like dis--what else?]

17.   Children's games

18.   Walt Wolfram (now of NC State) on how children acquire

    language patterns, vocabulary

19.   Southern female black (professional)

20.   NO STANDARD ENGLISH ACCENT--but there is a

    "NETWORK" STANDARD (voice of Directory Assistance--

    generic speech, "the voice from nowhere")

21.   Female "Yalie" on West Virginia speech ("this really kind of

    'you all' stuff") ("I was not gonna have little Southern

    babies who talked like that.")

22.   REGIONAL STEREOTYPES

    "Southerners talk like 'niggers'."

    "Rampant brain death west of the Hudson"

    In Manhattan the air is skyscrapers is so thin that people

    have a nasal accent.

    Northerners are not hospitable (grating, nasal, unkind).

    /a:s/ for /ays/ ("See, ice, ass-holes.")

    Texan on Northern stereotypes about Southerners (always

    depicted as dumb hick in movies) (Examples)

23.   Regional and ethnic humor (Georgians talk in questions--no

    wonder they lost the Civil War)

24.   Linguistically insecure female speaker

25.   Consequences of speaking a nonstandard dialect (Brooklyn

    speaker with speech coach) (Wolfram) (not what corporate

    world is looking for)

26.   Variation in Boston speech

27.   To tell which dialect is better, look at WHO is better: Urban

    better than rural, mc better than wc, white better than black,

    cultured vs. white trash (uneducated--"I ain't got no") vs.

    black

28.   If you speak a dialect, you have to be better [sound

    familiar?]

29.   Female speakers on style-shifting ("Look at them two

    beautiful girls--if they'd keep their mouths shut, they'd be

    perfect.")

30.   Boston Brahmins

31.   Other speakers on stereotypes--reasons for exaggeration

    (Boston Italian North End--no r's, etc.)--advantages ("The

    women, they eat it up" and "Guys are intimidated")

32.   Black English--necessary for relating? ("I don't want my

    boys sounding like white males.") ("She a school girl

    instead of a mama girl.")

33.   Pride in regional variation

34.   Fred G. Cassidy--don't spoil communication

35.   Attitudes

36.   Credits



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 14:04:35 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:



   Ditto (at the risk of being labeled a dittohead).

             Larry

   ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

   I've always heard it as "you pays your money and you takes your choice"

   (New York City and surroundings).

   

   Vicki Rosenzweig

 

  I've NEVER heard "choice" or "choices" until now. Always "chances"

  NW Illinois, Central Colorado.

 

  -- Jim

 



Well, I've never heard anything but "choice" (and maybe an occasional

"cherce") until this discussion started.



By the way, hasn't anybody but me wondered how "choices" could qualify as

"monosyllabic" (as described in the original posting)?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 17:14:26 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



Fort Wayne, IN reporting in with 10 infs, ages 34-51:

5 infs, "takes your choice"

5 infs, "takes your chances"



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 18:18:44 EST

From:  flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: proverbial knowledge



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 14-Dec-1995 06:13pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Beverly Flanigan              Dept: Linguistics

     FLANIGAN                 Tel No:



Subject: re: proverbial knowledge





  To add one more stop on the Northern migration route: In Minnesota I

  always heard "You pays your money and you takes your choice"--although

  whenever I said it I got looks that said "Doesn't she know English

  grammar?"

            --Beverly Flanigan, now of Ohio







Received: 14-Dec-1995 06:18pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:01:54 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



I've always heard, "You pays your money and you takes your chances."



The verb form just sounds right for some intonational reason.



I've never heard the "choices" option. THere could be a valid

semantic difference here, beyond the gambling origin mentioned.

Whenever I paid the money, I had no choice: I got what I got. It

was strictly a chance. After I chose to "pays the money," I had no

choice. I had a chance. The phonological similarity notwithstanding,

I believe there is a proverbial difference.



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 20:29:30 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Having used the video tape on many occasions, I can attest that

the following index by Ms. Dumas is not accurate. It is not even

accurate as an outline. An excellent educational supplement to

the video tape was prepared by Walt Wolfram, which suggests that

the video tape falls into three natural parts: the nature of

dialects, the origin of dialects, and the consequences of speaking

a dialect. Ms Dumas index not only does not reflect that structure,

but is seriously incorrect if it intends to reflect the linear

progression of the tape.



The tape, nonetheless, is worthwhile for all to use.



 

  Unauthorized Index to Contents of "American Tongues"

 

  Compiled by Bethany Dumas, UTK English Department, 1994

 

  1.   Southern (Black English?)

  2.   Mary had a little lamb

      Its fleece was white as snow

      And everywhere that Mary went

      The lamb was sure to go

      6 speakers: white male, white female, (Penn Dutch?), white

      male, black male child, white female, white female

  3.   Ranch talk--Texas

  4.   Northern cities--

  5.   Black female teenagers

  6.   Speakers about other dialects

  7.   Student actors (Shakespeare, etc.)

  8.   Institutional speech (sales talk, computers, etc.--jargon)

  9.   Church singing

  10.   Tangier Island ("Tangiermen") ("I figure I sound just like

      Walter Cronkite.         ")

  11.   Comments on settlement history of USA (fewer regional

      distinctions east of the Mississippi)

  12.   Roger W. Shuy (Georgetown University)

  13.   Style differences

       Kentucky radio call-in program ("I'm just a plain old

      hillbilly.") (Cratis Williams) (He may could wear it in a 8

      1/2.")

       Ohio ("Midwest--straight American, bland") (We don't talk

      funny, but if you want funny, go about 70 miles south."

       Texas (Most Westerners in their speaking ... are more

      open, more forthright.")

  14.   Foreign language influence (Louisiana French Creole)

  15.   New York City deli

  16.   Vocabulary differences--cabinet (RI), gumband, pau hana,

      jambalaya, antigogglin, snickelfritz, schlep

      [Today we could add words like dis--what else?]

  17.   Children's games

  18.   Walt Wolfram (now of NC State) on how children acquire

      language patterns, vocabulary

  19.   Southern female black (professional)

  20.   NO STANDARD ENGLISH ACCENT--but there is a

      "NETWORK" STANDARD (voice of Directory Assistance--

      generic speech, "the voice from nowhere")

  21.   Female "Yalie" on West Virginia speech ("this really kind of

      'you all' stuff") ("I was not gonna have little Southern

      babies who talked like that.")

  22.   REGIONAL STEREOTYPES

      "Southerners talk like 'niggers'."

      "Rampant brain death west of the Hudson"

      In Manhattan the air is skyscrapers is so thin that people

      have a nasal accent.

      Northerners are not hospitable (grating, nasal, unkind).

      /a:s/ for /ays/ ("See, ice, ass-holes.")

      Texan on Northern stereotypes about Southerners (always

      depicted as dumb hick in movies) (Examples)

  23.   Regional and ethnic humor (Georgians talk in questions--no

      wonder they lost the Civil War)

  24.   Linguistically insecure female speaker

  25.   Consequences of speaking a nonstandard dialect (Brooklyn

      speaker with speech coach) (Wolfram) (not what corporate

      world is looking for)

  26.   Variation in Boston speech

  27.   To tell which dialect is better, look at WHO is better: Urban

      better than rural, mc better than wc, white better than black,

      cultured vs. white trash (uneducated--"I ain't got no") vs.

      black

  28.   If you speak a dialect, you have to be better [sound

      familiar?]

  29.   Female speakers on style-shifting ("Look at them two

      beautiful girls--if they'd keep their mouths shut, they'd be

      perfect.")

  30.   Boston Brahmins

  31.   Other speakers on stereotypes--reasons for exaggeration

      (Boston Italian North End--no r's, etc.)--advantages ("The

      women, they eat it up" and "Guys are intimidated")

  32.   Black English--necessary for relating? ("I don't want my

      boys sounding like white males.") ("She a school girl

      instead of a mama girl.")

  33.   Pride in regional variation

  34.   Fred G. Cassidy--don't spoil communication

  35.   Attitudes

  36.   Credits

 





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:46:56 -0500

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:

  An excellent educational supplement to

  the video tape was prepared by Walt Wolfram, which suggests that

  the video tape falls into three natural parts: the nature of

  dialects, the origin of dialects, and the consequences of speaking

  a dialect.



Can someone please provide a source for Walt Wolfram's supplement?



    Best.     'Bye.      Steve

H Stephen STRAIGHT            Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics  LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric   VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889

 sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"!]



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:50:50 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



The supplement comes with an authorized purchase.



Try interlibrary loan.





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 21:54:34 -0500

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American...



Thank you, Bethany.



The list is very helpful.



David R. Carlson

Springfield College

Springfield MA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:07:42 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Bethany,

Can you, or anyone else, tell me the name of the African American educator,

who talks about BEV as unaccepted, and about learning standard English.

She says something close to "Of course, you still might not get that job,

but if you know standard English, at least they can't lay that on you."



thanks,

Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:51:40 -0500

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Dear Terry,

    I'm finally getting on to you! You're not a nasty after all,

even though you present yourself as one.

    Now that I see the entire exchange between you and Bethany and you

and me, your point appears to be that Bethany had needlessly and

amateurishly (though uncompensatedly) duplicated the (presumably

compensated) efforts of Walt Wolfram, whose work she would certainly have

been aware of if she had acquired "American Tongues" as an "authorized

purchase". Moral: we should note (and condemn) the (implied) breech of

copyright.

    Nice point! You're absolutely correct about this, however much we

may inveigh against budgetary and other impediments to proper behavior on

the part of many hard-pressed and/or ethically lax colleagues.

    I only wish you'd spelled out the basis of your objection. Your

initial response came across as smug and pedantic. Specifically, I wish

you'd mentioned that Walt's outline came with the tapes (as opposed to

having been published in a refereed journal), because as it happens my own

program has ended up with TWO "authorized purchase" originals (as opposed

to copies?, English fails me here) of this tape -- due to professors'

failure to communicate with each other about their mutual interest -- and

we still lack adequate supplementary materials (despite Walt's efforts, I

guess).

    Furthermore, we should consider the possibility that Bethany's

original lacks Walt's guide because Bethany's colleagues have lost or

misplaced it rather than because she or they copied the program

illegally. Why didn't you ask her and other interested parties to obtain

the material supplied with the tape rather than leave us wondering where

Wolfram's comments could be found?

    Maybe this is the point where I should admit that your response to

Bethany struck me at the outset as a hostile and unreasonable attack. In

retrospect, though, I see that you clearly have VERY important things to

convey to all of us, even if your angle of approach may lead many to

misconstrue both the intent and the content of your messages. Too bad!

    In any case, though, I'll now be (tentatively) a TLI defender.

However tempted I may be to continue to dismiss your messages as

'Net-induced flames, I'll now at least read them twice before doing so.

    Thanks for the lesson in tolerance, even if it came with a

TLI-inflicted wound I'll wear forever.

    Peace.



On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:

  Try interlibrary loan.



    Best.     'Bye.      Steve

H Stephen STRAIGHT            Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics  LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric   VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889

 sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"!]



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Dec 1995 to 14 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 31 messages totalling 930 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Choice vs chances (3)

 2. Attestations of "Begging the question" (2)

 3. Proverbial Knowledge

 4. Yas, youse, y'all (2)

 5. Proverbial (Twisted) Knowledge (2)

 6. Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited (8)

 7. Dialect tapes (2)

 8. pop and soda (2)

 9. Two versions of AMERICAN TONGUES? (2)

 10. "American Tongues" and "Yeah You Rite!"

 11. Bounced Mail

 12. can/can't

 13. American Tongues (3)

 14. e-mail somblabulism



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:33:59 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Choice vs chances



    What is curious, and interesting because of that, is that there

seems to be no REGIONAL pattern to the  choice/chances  difference.

    From South Texas, I use  choice , while a colleague from N. Alabama

reports  chances . I have certainly heard, and possibly used, the  "cherse" 

pronunciation, though I haven't the remotest idea how I came by it. My

Alabama colleague had not heard it. It does seem to imply a parody of

"Brooklynese", which was part of folk-awareness even down along the Rio Grande.

        Rudy

        --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 22:15:20 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Choice vs chances



Hi Rudy,

You are surely right re the folk awareness and "cherse." The ch- is part

of the variation possibility and allows it, so to speak, to happen? But

WHY?

Best,

Alan



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:28:24 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Attestations of "Begging the question"



My colleague, Carl Berkhout, has done a quick search of come current

publications, and has found the new meaning of  beg the question  is

not confined just to undergraduates. Either it has been around awhile,

or is spreading like a virus. Herewith excerpts from his note:



Rudy:



  Some general questioning has suggested that most younger people

  don't even realize what the original sense is.



No doubt about it. The very concept of logical fallacy is pretty much

unknown to them. It's too bad. They don't know what "petitio

principii," or any other pair of Latin words, means either,

so yet another very handy and economical phrase has been boodled into

semi-darkness.  Unless the context makes it clear, the phrase is now

certifiably ambiguous.



The first misunderstanding of the phrase--"avoiding the question,"

"ducking the question"--has of course been around for much of this

century and appears widely even among writers who otherwise know their

usage pretty well. A recent example from an article on Somalia in

_Foreign Affairs_ (May-June 1995):



  The Bush and Clinton administrations insisted on a quick handoff to

  the United Nations, effectively begging the question.



But its use in the "begging for an answer" sense is becoming just about

as common as "I could care less" these days.



Here's a heading from _Insight on the News_ (13 Feb 1995):



  Clinton's foreign success begs question: what next?



This one is from a writer, in _Reason_ (March 1995), skeptical about a

drug-prevention program:



  With such enthusiasm for the program it almost begs the question:

  What if it doesn't work?



Here's one that wrestles with the vessel with the pestle (_Astronomy_

Jan 1995):



  The troubles with Hubble beg the question: What is an acceptable,

  informed risk?



This one's from an article on a fashion photographer in _The New

Republic_ (2 Jan 1995):



  These twelve pages--a gorgeous throwback--beg the question: Where

  are the new masters?



And here's an example with an indefinite article, from a piece on the

Chrysler corporation in _The Economist_ (15 April 1995):



  Which begs a question: where will the money come from?



The trailing questions in the above examples make the beggary clear,

and it is probably clear--or is it?--as well in such beggared prose as

this, in _Hypatia_ (Spring 1995):



  Although the postmodern notion of the self as fragmented and shifting

  well captures some of the complexities of identity today, it

  frequently tends to beg the question of how to characterize the

  "self" that experiences itself as multiple and unstable.



At lunch one day with a couple of members of the British Library staff I

heard one of them say, "But that just beggars the whole question,

doesn't it?" At least I _think_ the verb was "beggars." Can't imagine

what other verb it could have been.



Carl



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Dec 1995 23:57:38 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Proverbial Knowledge



   One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"

 

 Oh, my God! I thought my mother was the only one who said that.

 

 Some other Mom-isms:

 

 "At the end of every rainbow is a silver lining."

 "He left his footprint across the face of time." (Ouch!)

 "If you can't beat 'em, forget about it."

 



In the same vein, a client of my father's used to say: "No matter how you

twist and turn, it all comes out in the wash."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:17:41 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Yas, youse, y'all



Is "yas" the same as y'all? How are they similar or different? How is it

similar or

different than youse as in youse guys? (You's)



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net





 Kate O'Neill wrote:

 

  Incidentally, anyone have the answer on the -s for "pays" and "takes",

  which all my ESL students correct to "pay" and "take" saying that

  the proverb contains 2 grammatical errors.

 

 As a native south-sider of the Windy City,

 I'm well accustomed to hearing the -s

 "conjugation" for second person. Thus it

 sounds rather natural to me. Possibly the

 proverb was coined in an environment where

 that was grammatical.

 

 Examples:

 

 If ya gots to go, we can go.

 Ya knows what ya knows.

 etc.

 

 Incidentally, I have a suspicion that this is

 related to the plural-esque "yas" that is used

 with some modals and auxiliaries, where an -s

 conjugation is "ungrammatical." Note: I say

 "plural-esque" because it only looks like a

 plural: it doesn't have to refer to more than

 one person.

 

 Examples:

 

 Yas don't have to go if yas don't want to.

 Are yas sure about that? (read "dat")

 etc.

 

 

 Hey, look! Another thread!

 

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

 ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

 ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

 ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

 ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

 ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

 ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:29:04 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Proverbial (Twisted) Knowledge



 One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"

 

 Joe Monda

 

 

Mine is "The worm thickens."



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, Florida

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:42:24 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



I really don't like being put in a position to feel that I have to defend

myself publicly, and I regret that I feel that way now.



Because I assisted the producers of "American Tongues," they kindly GAVE ME

a copy of the completed tape. As soon as the tape became commercially

availale, I ordered a copy for the library, may or may not have been

"authorized" (whatever that means). but which was paid for in the usual fashion

and at the full commercial rate.



I am delighted to know that Walt Wolfram prepareed a fuller index and that he

was compensated for doing so. I hope that I will someday have an

opportunity to see Walt's index and perhaps incorporate it into my own

teaching.



Your for truth in questioning and answering,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:38:08 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Proverbial (Twisted) Knowledge



   One variant that I've enjoyed is "You've buttered your bread, now lie in it!"

 

 Oh, my God! I thought my mother was the only one who said that.

 

 Some other Mom-isms:

 

 "At the end of every rainbow is a silver lining."

 "He left his footprint across the face of time." (Ouch!)

 "If you can't beat 'em, forget about it."

 

 Laurie Bowman

 Department of Linguistics

 University of Arizona, Tucson

 bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aruba.ccit.arizona.edu



Seth Sklarey adds:



"It always looks darkest before it turns totally black."



Our Florida Governor Lawton Chiles after pulling a last minute, come from

behind, surprise victory over challenger Jeb Bush said:



"The he-coon walks just before the light of day."



My father used to say:



"If a guy's a pig, you hit him one across the snout."



And was the author serious or sarcastic who said

"Chastity is its own reward?"



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritted Word

Coconut Grove, Florida

Crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:26:28 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Attestations of "Begging the question"



Rudy Troike's colleague, Carl Berkhout wrote:

 At lunch one day with a couple of members of the British Library staff I

 heard one of them say, "But that just beggars the whole question,

 doesn't it?" At least I _think_ the verb was "beggars." Can't imagine

 what other verb it could have been.

 

 Carl

 

Could he have been saying "buggers?"



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 07:48:48 -0600

From:  Rick Arons  RARONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TINY.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Many thanks for the index! I owe you one.



Rick







"Before Prozac, my relationship with God felt like an arranged

marriage. Now I have to decide if I want to spend the rest of

my life in a relationship with this person."



                 -Harper's, November 1995



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:20:44 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



I must apologize for the tone of my recent post. I was only trying

to provide a piece of information. I must say that the implications

drawn from my post my Stephen Straight are his own inferences and

are in no way intended by me. I need to watch my words more carefully.

It's the foot in mouth disease, I think. Or I'm an inveterate flamer.

It could be the disconnectedness of the electronic medium. I certainly

hope I am not so brusque and rude in person.



Bethany's index has many points from the video excellently presented.

My intent is to suggest that the three part structure could be used

to give it an improvement, which is what the title of her post asks

for.



Apoplectically yours,



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:05:00 CST

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 

Subject: Dialect tapes



Does anyone know of any good audio recordings that can be used to highlight the

 fact that the initial judgments we make about people--their ethnicity, SEC, et

c.--when we can hear but not see them are often false? When I was in graduate

school at Indiana in the late '70s and early '80s, one of my professors had a r

eel-to-reel tape of about 30 speakers, black and white, various SECs, that made

 this point beautifully; but when I queried her recently, she said the tape had

 been used so much that it eventually wore out. I'll be grateful for any sugge

stions. Thanks in advance.



         --Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:32:15 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: Choice vs chances



At 10:33 PM 12/14/95 -0700, Rudy Troike wrote:

     What is curious, and interesting because of that, is that there

 seems to be no REGIONAL pattern to the  choice/chances  difference.

     From South Texas, I use  choice ,



 . . . while my husband, who is also from South Texas (Port Arthur and

Houston), uses "chances" and has never heard "choice."



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:46:31 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Yas, youse, y'all



 Is "yas" the same as y'all? How are they similar or different? How is it

 similar or

 different than youse as in youse guys? (You's)

 

 Seth Sklarey



No, I'm pretty convinced that they're not the same.

"Yas" does not have to be plural.

If I weren't in the middle of a huge project

right now, I would vow to research the topic.



:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

This message brought to you by -- K  A  T  E

         (

   _____________ )

  |_____________X

Ceci n'est pas une .cig



Thought for the day:

schizophrenics outnumber their enemies two to one.



kathleen m. o'neill . koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu . u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 08:55:18 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



On the subject of buying videotapes versus taping them from tv, I have

a question: A colleague of mine (who teaches our film course and is

very much into the video scene in general) claims that it's perfectly

legal to tape anything you want to from tv and show it to your classes.

I've argued that that doesn't make sense, at least with videos that are

sold -- e.g., "American Tongues." If it's legal to tape from tv, why

would people buy the tapes?



Another question about "American Tongues": Are there two slightly different

versions of it? I'm almost positive I've seen slightly different versions.



Btw, I agree with the people who have given "American Tongues" glowing

reports. I consider it the best educational videotape I've ever seen --

accurate, enlightening, and fun.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:38:10 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



The trouble here may be that there are two versions of the movie.



Tim Frazer









On Thu, 14 Dec 1995, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:



  Having used the video tape on many occasions, I can attest that

  the following index by Ms. Dumas is not accurate. It is not even

  accurate as an outline. An excellent educational supplement to

  the video tape was prepared by Walt Wolfram, which suggests that

  the video tape falls into three natural parts: the nature of

  dialects, the origin of dialects, and the consequences of speaking

  a dialect. Ms Dumas index not only does not reflect that structure,

  but is seriously incorrect if it intends to reflect the linear

  progression of the tape.

 

  The tape, nonetheless, is worthwhile for all to use.

 

   

    Unauthorized Index to Contents of "American Tongues"

   

    Compiled by Bethany Dumas, UTK English Department, 1994

   

    1.   Southern (Black English?)

    2.   Mary had a little lamb

        Its fleece was white as snow

        And everywhere that Mary went

        The lamb was sure to go

        6 speakers: white male, white female, (Penn Dutch?), white

        male, black male child, white female, white female

    3.   Ranch talk--Texas

    4.   Northern cities--

    5.   Black female teenagers

    6.   Speakers about other dialects

    7.   Student actors (Shakespeare, etc.)

    8.   Institutional speech (sales talk, computers, etc.--jargon)

    9.   Church singing

    10.   Tangier Island ("Tangiermen") ("I figure I sound just like

        Walter Cronkite.         ")

    11.   Comments on settlement history of USA (fewer regional

        distinctions east of the Mississippi)

    12.   Roger W. Shuy (Georgetown University)

    13.   Style differences

         Kentucky radio call-in program ("I'm just a plain old

        hillbilly.") (Cratis Williams) (He may could wear it in a 8

        1/2.")

         Ohio ("Midwest--straight American, bland") (We don't talk

        funny, but if you want funny, go about 70 miles south."

         Texas (Most Westerners in their speaking ... are more

        open, more forthright.")

    14.   Foreign language influence (Louisiana French Creole)

    15.   New York City deli

    16.   Vocabulary differences--cabinet (RI), gumband, pau hana,

        jambalaya, antigogglin, snickelfritz, schlep

        [Today we could add words like dis--what else?]

    17.   Children's games

    18.   Walt Wolfram (now of NC State) on how children acquire

        language patterns, vocabulary

    19.   Southern female black (professional)

    20.   NO STANDARD ENGLISH ACCENT--but there is a

        "NETWORK" STANDARD (voice of Directory Assistance--

        generic speech, "the voice from nowhere")

    21.   Female "Yalie" on West Virginia speech ("this really kind of

        'you all' stuff") ("I was not gonna have little Southern

        babies who talked like that.")

    22.   REGIONAL STEREOTYPES

        "Southerners talk like 'niggers'."

        "Rampant brain death west of the Hudson"

        In Manhattan the air is skyscrapers is so thin that people

        have a nasal accent.

        Northerners are not hospitable (grating, nasal, unkind).

        /a:s/ for /ays/ ("See, ice, ass-holes.")

        Texan on Northern stereotypes about Southerners (always

        depicted as dumb hick in movies) (Examples)

    23.   Regional and ethnic humor (Georgians talk in questions--no

        wonder they lost the Civil War)

    24.   Linguistically insecure female speaker

    25.   Consequences of speaking a nonstandard dialect (Brooklyn

        speaker with speech coach) (Wolfram) (not what corporate

        world is looking for)

    26.   Variation in Boston speech

    27.   To tell which dialect is better, look at WHO is better: Urban

        better than rural, mc better than wc, white better than black,

        cultured vs. white trash (uneducated--"I ain't got no") vs.

        black

    28.   If you speak a dialect, you have to be better [sound

        familiar?]

    29.   Female speakers on style-shifting ("Look at them two

        beautiful girls--if they'd keep their mouths shut, they'd be

        perfect.")

    30.   Boston Brahmins

    31.   Other speakers on stereotypes--reasons for exaggeration

        (Boston Italian North End--no r's, etc.)--advantages ("The

        women, they eat it up" and "Guys are intimidated")

    32.   Black English--necessary for relating? ("I don't want my

        boys sounding like white males.") ("She a school girl

        instead of a mama girl.")

    33.   Pride in regional variation

    34.   Fred G. Cassidy--don't spoil communication

    35.   Attitudes

    36.   Credits

   

 

 

  --

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

  Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

  Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

  Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 10:45:49 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



Those of us who are particularly interested in this topic ought to go

hear Luanne von Schneidemesser's paper, "Soda or Pop?", which she will be

giving at the American Dialect Society meeting in Chcago on December 30.

Her talk is based on extensive research, and therefore should actually

prove to be illuminating. See the abstract in the September NADS, whilch in

itself contains some informative stuff.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:03:39 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Two versions of AMERICAN TONGUES?



There are at least two versions of AT. The original contained footage of

a white person uttering the word "nigger"; ths drew so many objections

that they removed it. There may have been other editions as well, but I

know that this happened. The use of that particular racial slur so

distracted audiences that they missed everything else that was going

on--including (ironically) the film's implied message that the power of

racial slurs is incredible. We have thleorginal version in the Duke

library, and when I show it to students I always warn them lthat the word

will be there and that there is a reason for it (and I explain the

rerason). Otherwise, it takes a whole week to straighten things out.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 09:10:01 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



Natalie wrote:



 On the subject of buying videotapes versus taping them from tv, I have

 a question: A colleague of mine (who teaches our film course and is

 very much into the video scene in general) claims that it's perfectly

 legal to tape anything you want to from tv and show it to your classes.

 I've argued that that doesn't make sense, at least with videos that are

 sold -- e.g., "American Tongues." If it's legal to tape from tv, why

 would people buy the tapes?



I'm not an attorney, and there are probably several of you out there who

can clarify this better, but here's my understanding:



The difference lies in "fair use." The Supreme Court has upheld the right

of people to tape from their own TVs for their own use. Once you play the

tape in a different forum, however, such as a classroom, it's no longer

fair use, so it would be considered an infringement of copyright law.



In other words, it's legal to tape from your TV; it's not legal to play

the tape in class. That's the way I understand it, anyway. If I'm wrong,

please straighten me out.



Bruce Gelder

(bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:50:02 -0500

From:  Virginia Clark  vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: "American Tongues" and "Yeah You Rite!"



    I agree with everyone who has heaped praise on "American Tongues";

it is by far the most successful videotape I've used (followed not very

closely by an interview with Deborah Tannen about _You Just Don't

Understand_, which I am apparently, according to Bruce Gelder, using

illegally [I didn't want to know that]).



    What have others' experiences been with the videotape "Yeah You

Rite!" which was produced and directed by the same people who did "American

Tongues" and for which Walt Wolfram also wrote an instructional guide? (If

you haven't seen it, it deals with the various dialects in New Orleans.) My

students don't like it, and I'm not sure if that's because we're in Vermont

and most of them haven't been to New Orleans (sometimes I think some of them

don't even know where it is) or because the videotape itself isn't as good

as "American Tongues."



Virginia Clark

University of Vermont



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 11:11:54 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



I'm not a a lawyer: this is just what I've picked up over the years,

and you probably should consult an expert.



With that said: what is definitely legal is time-shifting. For example,

if you want to watch something being broadcast at 5:00, but you won't

get home until 6, it's perfectly legitimate to tape the program, watch

it later, and then erase the tape. And what is definitely not legal is

taping something off the television and charging people to see it: for

example, you can't record a current movie off HBO and charge your

neighbors $1 each to come see it in your living room. Clearly, that leaves

a lot of gray area, though the copyright owner might be able to argue

that, since students pay tuition for the right to attend class, using

something broadcast over the air for a later class is a violation.



And a practical note: even if it's legal to tape things off television,

people will sometimes buy tapes because the tape quality is higher that

way, or to avoid having to either watch or edit out commercials.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:08:15 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Two versions of AMERICAN TONGUES?



  There are at least two versions of AT. The original contained footage of

  a white person uttering the word "nigger"; ths drew so many objections

  that they removed it. There may have been other editions as well, but I



I think there are others. I'm almost positive I've seen two, and I

don't think either has included the word "nigger." One of them didn't

have the scene of the stand-up comic talking about question intonation

in Southern "Charge!" I'm also thinking that one might not have had

the "Get the ice, asshole" segment.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:44:59 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Dialect tapes



See Ken Haley's "Some Complexities in Speech Identification" in the Fall

1990 issue of _The SECOL Review_. He reports that elderly adults more

often than children are misidentified (whites identified as black or

blacks as white) and that whites are more likely than blacks to

misidentify the speaker's ethnicity.



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Tom Murray wrote:



  Does anyone know of any good audio recordings that can be used to highlight the

  fact that the initial judgments we make about people--their ethnicity, SEC, et

  c.--when we can hear but not see them are often false? When I was in graduate

  school at Indiana in the late '70s and early '80s, one of my professors had a r

  eel-to-reel tape of about 30 speakers, black and white, various SECs, that made

  this point beautifully; but when I queried her recently, she said the tape had

  been used so much that it eventually wore out. I'll be grateful for any sugge

  stions. Thanks in advance.

 

           --Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 13:48:43 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited



There's a shorter (edited for high school) version and a longer version

that I've used in college classes.



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  On the subject of buying videotapes versus taping them from tv, I have

  a question: A colleague of mine (who teaches our film course and is

  very much into the video scene in general) claims that it's perfectly

  legal to tape anything you want to from tv and show it to your classes.

  I've argued that that doesn't make sense, at least with videos that are

  sold -- e.g., "American Tongues." If it's legal to tape from tv, why

  would people buy the tapes?

 

  Another question about "American Tongues": Are there two slightly different

  versions of it? I'm almost positive I've seen slightly different versions.

 

  Btw, I agree with the people who have given "American Tongues" glowing

  reports. I consider it the best educational videotape I've ever seen --

  accurate, enlightening, and fun.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:54:40 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:05:15 -0500

  From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)"  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from GROVE.IUP.EDU

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 8058 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

 ------------------ Message in error (79 lines) --------------------------

  Date: Fri, 15 Dec 1995 16:05:20 -0500 (EST)

  From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu 

  Subject: Re: Unauth Index to "American Tongues" - Improvements Invited

 

   On the subject of buying videotapes versus taping them from tv, I have

   a question: A colleague of mine (who teaches our film course and is

   very much into the video scene in general) claims that it's perfectly

   legal to tape anything you want to from tv and show it to your classes.

   I've argued that that doesn't make sense, at least with videos that are

   sold -- e.g., "American Tongues." If it's legal to tape from tv, why

   would people buy the tapes?

 

  I originally taped the show from tv, but had a few problems. First, it was

  on cable, but not on PBS, so I had to deal with commercials. Since I can

  barely turn a vcr on and off, I botched up my copy trying to delete the

  commercials. Also, the quality of the picture was uneven. After using it a

  couple of times, I decided to ask the library to buy a copy. I'll have to ask

  about the guide, however, since they have never given it out with the tape.

  The tape was of execellent quality in both picture and sound.

   Another question about "American Tongues": Are there two slightly different

   versions of it? I'm almost positive I've seen slightly different versions.

 

  I'm just about sure that there were differences in the tv version I taped and

  the version that our library ordered.

 

   Btw, I agree with the people who have given "American Tongues" glowing

   reports. I consider it the best educational videotape I've ever seen --

   accurate, enlightening, and fun.

     --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 

  Finally, I believe that the teacher who spoke about teaching Black students

  Standard English was Nona Stokes

 

  BarbaraHH (BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:16:20 -0500

From:  Robert Swets  bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US 

Subject: Re: pop and soda



On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Ronald Butters wrote:



  Those of us who are particularly interested in this topic ought to go

  hear Luanne von Schneidemesser's paper, "Soda or Pop?", which she will be

  giving at the American Dialect Society meeting in Chcago on December 30.



Do you have her address? I can't go to Chicago, but I'd love to hear this.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

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               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 18:51:13 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: can/can't



Dennis took me to task over my pointing out one feature of pronunciation

that worked for some int'l students. That's all I claimed. I didn't try

to teach them more about phonetics. Of course, they filter what

they hear through "foreigner talk" phonology.

                       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 20:52:12 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: American Tongues



Let me, to quote a phrase, see if I have this straight. There is a

video, "American Tongues," that many of us think is an excellent intro

to variation in these United States. This video exists in several (at

least two) versions, at least one of which is an "expurgated" versison

that deletes the n- word episode (and possibly other episodes).



Floating around the universe are two "indexes," one (mine) of which is a

class handout designed to give students a reminder of what they have just

seen for discussion purposes. The other one, which many purchasers of the

video have not ever seen (I have not), is a more comprehensive study guide and

index. It was prepared by Walt Wolfram and is sometimes provided to

purchasers of the tape.



It is apparently not possible to tell by examining the videotape which version

one has. One version may have been prepared for high school students.



For the record: I sent to the list this week the class handout I prepared

for my students. It IS accurate for one version of the video. If it does not

track YOUR version, then you have a different version of the video.



What I would like to know now is: how many versions of the video have been

commercially distributed? Is it possible to get copies of all versions?

How does one purchase a copy of Wolfram's Study Guide?



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 19:59:34 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: e-mail somblabulism



I eeoopsed when I posted the long Labov-related message on the net. I don't

generally do such things, but I was asleep at the time apparently. I think

I thought the original poster, who has communicated with me and says I said

right things, was asking my advice on whether he should post it.

Ah well,

  Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya chances.



Iwas mortifiedly embarrased when my posting came back to me over ads-l.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:09:20 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: American Tongues



I recently used "American Tongues" by calling it in thru interlibrary

loan. I didn't specify a version, and the Indiana University system

simply listed it as "American Tongues." The videotape I received was

marked for high school, and did not come with a guide. No guide was listed

in the catalog (or I think not. Hmm, don't quote me on that.) And boy!

was I surprised because I knew only the full length version.



The high school version (which is still excellent, but with a male

voice over) lacks: the voice from nowhere, the n-word scene (complete

with n-word sayer's friend signally "Not me" and trying to creep away),

Molly Ivens, the film clips (no Brando), the stand-up saying "Charge?",

the fishermen on the island, the Dickens/Austen discussion in the library,

the Cajun French-English couple, Ted Hill showing an entry at DARE,

and the two little girls doing "Mama Mama come here quick".

What else?



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Dec 1995 21:04:53 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: American Tongues



  The high school version (which is still excellent, but with a male

  voice over) lacks: the voice from nowhere, the n-word scene (complete

  with n-word sayer's friend signally "Not me" and trying to creep away),

  Molly Ivens, the film clips (no Brando), the stand-up saying "Charge?",

  the fishermen on the island, the Dickens/Austen discussion in the library,

  the Cajun French-English couple, Ted Hill showing an entry at DARE,

  and the two little girls doing "Mama Mama come here quick".

  What else?



Ok, now I know there are at least three versions. Maybe more. I've never

seen the n-word version, but I've seen a version that includes all of the

rest of the above and also a version that includes some of the above (e.g.,

the fishermen, the Dickens/Austen, the two little girls) but omits some of

the above (e.g., the film clips and stand-up comic).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Dec 1995 to 15 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 110 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Murphy's Law

 2. Showing tapes dubbed from TV

 3. American Tongues

 4. Fwd: Re: Murphy's Law

 5. AmerTongues

 6. lugen

 7. Yas, youse, y'all



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:18:04 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Murphy's Law



Does anyone know the origin and the original version of Murphy's Law? I read

a review a

few years ago (I think it was Hugh Kenner's column in _Byte_ magazine) of a

book which gave the source, an Air force maintenance officer, Capt.

Patrick(?) Murphy, who

investigated the failure of a rocket sled and found that the seat had been

installed backwards. I did not look for the book, but that report is

consistent with my first

encounter with the Law, a poster in a Marine Corps aviation maintenance

office to the

effect of "If a part can be installed incorrectly, it will be." Does anyone

know the exact

source and original statement?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 00:25:02 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Showing tapes dubbed from TV



Natalie,

    It's my impression, as least insofar as PBS shows are concerned, that

they can be copied off the air and used ONCE, rather like the restriction

on using copyrighted print material. We bought the MacNeil history of English

tapes for the department, but I prefer to use a dubbed copy that has been

edited to take out a lot of the fluff. However, since we bought the series,

I'm technically safe, if an inspector happened by.

    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 11:39:17 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: American Tongues



I forwarded a copy of your latest message to Walt Wolfram and hope he

will be able to asnwer some of these questions.



See you in Chicago I hope!



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 12:46:02 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Fwd: Re: Murphy's Law



According to Webster's 12,000 Words the origin of Murphy's law is PROBABLY in

the name E.A. Murphy, a 20th Century American engineer.



The first quote for the term in The Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English

is 1958. The first quotation in OEDs is likewise 1958. It suggests that the

term is military jargon. Another quotation suggests that it's origin was in

the ficticious character in educational cartoons produced for the U.S. Navy in

which Murphy was a clumsy mechanic.



Perhaps this term, as with the term jeep, will remain obscure or uncertain.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:37:42 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: AmerTongues



Walt Wolfram responds:



Ron:



I'm not sure even the producers know how many versions there are.

They also would have the study guide that I prepared and should send

it freely to those who need it. I could, however, make a copy of it.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 13:58:41 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: lugen



For those whoo were wondering about LUGEN, Irving Lewis Allen discusses

the term iln THE LANGUAGE OF ETHNIC CONFLICT, p. 62. His only sourceis

Pederson (in the article which Tom--I think it was--cirted previously)

and he seems to be suggesting that it is a term which originated in Chicago.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Dec 1995 18:33:26 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Yas, youse, y'all



On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



  "Yas" does not have to be plural.



YAS/YOUSE has to be plural for me (so does Y'ALL, though an upcoming

article in AMERICAN SPEECH finds people in Oklahoma who say that they

sometimes use singular Y'ALL).



What evidence is there that YAS/YOUSE can be singular? What about YUNZ?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 1995 to 16 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 17 messages totalling 388 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. het/heated (4)

 2. Dating "Murphy's Law"

 3. Murphy's Law

 4. Pogo (2)

 5. Query Also Posted to ADS-L

 6. Yas, youse, y'all (2)

 7. Signoff

 8. Showing tapes dubbed from TV (3)

 9. POGO STICK IT TO ME

 10. Doublespeak



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Dec 1995 23:39:54 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: het/heated



    In response to a posting a while back by Jeutonne Brewer re her

mother-in-law's use of  het  as the past tense of  heat, vb  (clearly different

from the Pennsylvania usage of  het in the present tense reported by Molly

Dickmeyer), I recall what seemingly was once a common South Midland (and

Southern?) expression "Don't get all het [=heated] up about it." I don't

know if this was included in the LAGS survey. Clearly we've lost a good

strong verb form.

    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 00:02:59 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Dating "Murphy's Law"



A colleague of mine recalls having heard of "Murphy's Law" during World War II,

which would considerably antedate the 1958 citation David Barnhart mentioned.

He also recalls hearing the Law in its generic version, "If anything can go

wrong, it will," which would be expected of an earlier form. Later adaptation

and specialization to various contexts would be the expected path of develop-

ment, rather than the other way around.

    Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night,

        Rudy

        --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 03:35:15 -0500

From:  Margaret Ronkin  ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: het/heated



    In a narrative that I recently collected for a class

assignment, my 73-year-old mother used  het  as the past tense

form of  heat, vb  in "And I found myself getting all het up

about that". She grew up in the Sacramento Valley (where her

family settled during the Gold Rush) and claims to have learned

the usage from elderly relatives of Scots-English descent

as a child. Rather than attributing this form to geography

alone, she and I were under the impression that the Scots-

English in the US retained it at least up to her generation.



--Maggie

On Sun, 17 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



      In response to a posting a while back by Jeutonne Brewer re her

  mother-in-law's use of  het  as the past tense of  heat, vb  (clearly different

  from the Pennsylvania usage of  het in the present tense reported by Molly

  Dickmeyer), I recall what seemingly was once a common South Midland (and

  Southern?) expression "Don't get all het [=heated] up about it." I don't

  know if this was included in the LAGS survey. Clearly we've lost a good

  strong verb form.

      Rudy

      --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:00:19 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: het/heated



Rudy,



I had 'het up' as a kid (Louisville 1940's) with no realization that it was

related to 'heat.' My use of it was imitative, however; speakers who

'really' used it were older and/or 'rustic' (whatever that is). I noticed

that after I went north of Louisville people thought I was rustic. The very

idea!



Dennis

 preton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



     In response to a posting a while back by Jeutonne Brewer re her

 mother-in-law's use of  het  as the past tense of  heat, vb  (clearly different

 from the Pennsylvania usage of  het in the present tense reported by Molly

 Dickmeyer), I recall what seemingly was once a common South Midland (and

 Southern?) expression "Don't get all het [=heated] up about it." I don't

 know if this was included in the LAGS survey. Clearly we've lost a good

 strong verb form.

     Rudy

     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 07:36:07 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: het/heated



  I had 'het up' as a kid (Louisville 1940's) with no realization that it was

  related to 'heat.' My use of it was imitative, however; speakers who



What he said (except Mississippi, not Louisville). Some of the expressions

I grew up with were those of a supposedly delightful great great aunt, who

was originally from the mountains of North Alabama and who died shortly

before I was born. My mother still quotes her often -- expressions like

"hot as flugens," "all het up," and many, many others.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 08:55:10 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Murphy's Law



   I believe I missed some of the earlier posts on this term and so,

   apologize if this is repetitive.



   I think the 1958 citation which has been mentioned comes from The

   Nation, volume 168, no. 23, June 7, 1958, pp. 505-506. The cite, in

   part, states "There is an old military maxim known as Murphy's Law

   which asserts that wherever there is a bolt to be turned, someday

   there will be someone to turn it in the wrong way." The story

   concerns a Nike Ajax missile which accidentally exploded in New Jersey

   on May 22nd.



   In 1978, columnist Charles McCabe, in the San Francisco Chronicle

   wrote a column on Murphy's Law (March 16, page 53). Again quoting,

   "Nichols says the expression was first used in 1949 at Edwards Air

   Force Base. On the track at North Base there was Colonel J. P.

   Stapp's experimental crash research testing. The actual work was

   being done by Northrop Aircraft, and Nichols was Northrop's project

   manager. The Law's namesake was Captain Ed Murphy, a development

   engineer from Wright Field Aircraft Lab. Frustration with a strap

   transducer which was malfunctioning due to an error in wiring the

   strain gage bridges caused him to remark -- 'If there is any way to do

   things wrong, he will' -- referring to the technician who had wired

   the bridges at the lab. A couple of weeks after the naming Colonel

   Stapp indicated at a press conference that our fine safety record

   during several years of simulated crash force testing was the result

   of a firm belief in Murphy's Law, and our consistent effort to deny

   the inevitable. The widespread references to the Law in

   manufacturers' ads within only a few months was fantastic -- and

   Murphy's Law was off and running wild."



    A 1978 issue (?) of Verbatim attributed Murphy's Law to Ireland.

   Another author, Jim Russell, wrote a book in 1978 called Russell on

   Murphy's Law, in which he supposedly traced the saying back to early

   Egypt.



    In Peter Tamony's files I did find one earlier cite. -- San

   Francisco Chronicle, 17 June 1957, page 21. A column by Stanton

   Delaplane titled "Postcard From England" A subheading reads "If

   anything can go wrong, it will." -- Murphy's Law



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:13:06 -0800

From:  Chris Coolidge  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pogo



 I just finished reading a compilation book of old Pogo cartoons; inclu-

ded is an interview with cartoonist Walt Kelly, who refers to his charac-

ters' ways of talking as "following the path of least resistance, like wa-

ter flowing down a hill." That's a pretty good description of the way

children and less educated people use language. They tend to make up words

that they figure should exist. In a way education tends to water down that

childlike tendency, and it kind of saddens me to see children grow up and

lose that childlike delight in playing with words and local yokels moving

to the big city and losing their regional idiosyncracies. Fortunately it

doesn't always happen.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:22:18 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pogo



Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder why some of the world's most complex grammatical and

phnological systems pesist among peoples with no formal education. You

would figure the water would have warshed them down the hill to pure

simplicity by now.

Dennis

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



  I just finished reading a compilation book of old Pogo cartoons; inclu-

 ded is an interview with cartoonist Walt Kelly, who refers to his charac-

 ters' ways of talking as "following the path of least resistance, like wa-

 ter flowing down a hill." That's a pretty good description of the way

 children and less educated people use language. They tend to make up words

 that they figure should exist. In a way education tends to water down that

 childlike tendency, and it kind of saddens me to see children grow up and

 lose that childlike delight in playing with words and local yokels moving

 to the big city and losing their regional idiosyncracies. Fortunately it

 doesn't always happen.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:04:56 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Query Also Posted to ADS-L



The Ph.D. program in Modern Foreign Languages at the University

of Tennessee has a minor concentration in Applied Linguistics. (The

University has no Linguistics Department, but does have an

interdepartmental undergraduate degree program in linguistics.)



Members of that program have been asked to put together a reading

list for graduate Ph.D.. candidates who select Applied Linguistics as

a second concentration. The students are primarily French, Spanish

and German graduate students who will be taking some linguistics

courses in various departments to fulfill the requirements for this

second concentration. Those requirements consist of 2 courses in

Applied ling. in the target language (Spanish, French, German), two

courses in Applied ling., but not necessarily in the target language.

They are also required to take two additional courses in general

linguistics.



Those of us on the Linguistics Committee at the U of Tennessee are

discussing among ourselves whether a reading list is the best way to

help people outside the field pinpoint what the field encompasses.

Some of are in favor of specifying topics or skills, etc., rather than

indicating what books one should have read.



I would be grateful for comments from colleagues who have

wrestled with this problem elsewhere. If there is sufficient

discussion, I'll post a summary to the list.



Thanks,

Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:08:18 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Yas, youse, y'all



 On Fri, 15 Dec 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

 

   "Yas" does not have to be plural.

 What evidence is there that YAS/YOUSE can be singular? What about YUNZ?



Unfortunately, as I mentioned in my

first posting on this subject, I don't

have the time to research this topic properly,

so I only really have anecdotal evidence.

But I can say with certainty that I have

heard this usage throughout my life, but only

on the south side of Chicago.



Sorry - I know that's not much help. But how

about this: anyone who's interested in hearing

a demonstration can come with me to a south side

bar when y'all (all y'all?) are in town. =^]

If you're not satisfied, aw, what the heck,

I'll demonstrate it for ya once I've had a few!

*grin*



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:44:45 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English"  E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU 

Subject: Signoff



 For those people whom I promised to write:



  My home computer was stone-cold dead this morning, so I've had to sign off

(given the absence of a postpone command). Happy holidays to all.



  Suzanne Legault



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 17:08:06 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Yas, youse, y'all



Going to an authentic southside Chicago bar to hear people say YOUSE in the

singular sounds like very cool research. Count me in. Can we get NSF

funding?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:44:07 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Showing tapes dubbed from TV



  It's my impression, as least insofar as PBS shows are concerned,

that

  they can be copied off the air and used ONCE

      --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



As I understood it, the number of times used is less significant than

the timing. I think I may show it to more than one class if I

do it right away. On the other hand, I cannot even show it once if I

wait too long.

Tom

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:41:11 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Showing tapes dubbed from TV



PBS usually floods out mailboxes a couple of times a year with glossy ads

for their videos {read "our" above}, and as I recall, these usually contain

stern warnings about their policy. If you have one of these lying around,

you might take a look at it.

    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 20:56:58 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Showing tapes dubbed from TV



The question is not one of legality. It's a matter of whether you

get caught and what your ethics are. C'est tout!



Speaking of same, does any one know where a copy of an NCTE recording made

by Ravin McDavid, et al., titled _Americans Speaking_ may be had?

I have a copy of the accompanying booklet.



Irons, the flambee

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:27:12 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: POGO STICK IT TO ME



WE HAVE MET THE ENEMY AND WE IS THEY (watered down educated correction???)

SETH

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



 Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder why some of the world's most complex grammatical and

 phnological systems pesist among peoples with no formal education. You

 would figure the water would have warshed them down the hill to pure

 simplicity by now.

 Dennis

  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 

 

   I just finished reading a compilation book of old Pogo cartoons; inclu-

  ded is an interview with cartoonist Walt Kelly, who refers to his charac-

  ters' ways of talking as "following the path of least resistance, like wa-

  ter flowing down a hill." That's a pretty good description of the way

  children and less educated people use language. They tend to make up words

  that they figure should exist. In a way education tends to water down that

  childlike tendency, and it kind of saddens me to see children grow up and

  lose that childlike delight in playing with words and local yokels moving

  to the big city and losing their regional idiosyncracies. Fortunately it

  doesn't always happen.

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 22:55:42 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Doublespeak



 About 25 or 30 years ago NCTE had a doublespeak award for the best example

of doublespeak for the year. Does the award and competition still exist?



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Dec 1995 to 18 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 2440 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Fwd: Re: Murphy's Law

 2. Deja vu (5)

 3. "Come Up And See My Etchings" (fwd)

 4. woty (2)

 5. "harsh" as woty (2)

 6. Fwd: Re: troubleshooting in Japanese (2)

 7. HELP!!! DON'T LET A GREAT MIND WASTE

 8. Gutters (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 01:02:43 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Murphy's Law



If Murphy's Law can be credited to an American engineer and the year 1958,

does anyone know why it is known as Sod's Law in England?

                             DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 07:41:10 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Deja vu



I've noticed lately that "deja vu" seems to have been replaced in most media

occurrences (especially TV and radio) by "deja vu all over again." Is this

a new usage, or has it been smoldering around for a while and I'm the one

who's just now noticing it?



Bruce Gelder

(bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:41:50 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: "Come Up And See My Etchings" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:17:22 -0500 (EST)

From: William Albert Davis  wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com 

To: Stumper-list  stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU 

Subject: "Come Up And See My Etchings"





Sunday's Louisville Courier-Journal had an item stating that The

Indianapolis Museum of Art is offering $25 to anyone who can document the

orgin and first public use of the phrase "Come Up And See My Etchings,"

which is the title of an exhibition beginning February 11 in the

Columbus, Indiana satellite Gallery. If you want to collect, write Bret

Waller, Indianapolis Museum of Art, 1200 W. 38th Street, Indianapolis,

Ind. 46208.



Bill Davis       wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com

******************************************************************************

  * William A. Davis * 1424 Arcade Avenue * Louisville * KY * 40215 *

     * P.O.Box 337 * Ghent * KY * 41045 * (502) 363-4521 *

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:14:08 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Deja vu



I believe that we owe "deja vu all over again" to Yogi Berra (or was it some

other bb player?).



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:06:06 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: Deja vu



 I've noticed lately that "deja vu" seems to have been replaced in most media

 occurrences (especially TV and radio) by "deja vu all over again." Is this

 a new usage, or has it been smoldering around for a while and I'm the one

 who's just now noticing it?

 

 Bruce Gelder

 (bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)

 

Yogi Berra, having inherited the managership of the New York Yankees, also

inherited

Casey Stengel's Stengelistic type comments, or nowwhat I call Mantra of a Yogi.



One of his more well known is "It's deja vu all over again."



Another is " The future's not what it used to be."



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:53:45 -0600

From:  LAWRENCE DAVIS  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Deja vu



And let's not forget another Yogi-ism: Good pitching always beats good

hitting, and vice versa.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:35:21 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: woty



Here's my personal list, finally.



The Word of the Year

by Dennis Baron



It's time again to announce the word of the year, and one of the finalists

for 1995 is "hey." Hey is fast becoming the universal informal greeting.

Like aloha and shalom, hey can mean both hello and good-bye. It's used

more than "hi," and a lot more than "hello." The exclamation "hey" goes

back to the twelfth century. Medieval children often said "Hey!" to which

their middle-aged parents replied, "Hey is for horses." "Hey" as a

greeting made its dictionary debut less than five years ago. It may be a

shortened form of "Hey, what's happenin'?" My children say "hey" all the

time, both coming and going. And their medieval parents still reply, "Hey

is for horses."

    Another finalist for word of the year is "cool," which is actually

pronounced "kul." Like hey, cool is popular among the young, who act like

they invented it. In fact cool first became hot back in the 1950s, as part

of the lingo of jazz musicians. Like those wide ties in my closet, "cool"

is back in style, and if you want to sound like a nineties type of person,

you might want to trot out a "Hey, cool," every once in a while-but please,

leave those wide ties on the rack.

    Speaking of a nineties type of person, the turning of the year has

turned public attention toward the millennium, and while this year the word

"millennium" rates the second runner-up spot, in a few short years it

should move up to word of the year in its own right. Whether the

millennium brings the destruction of civilization or just one heck of a big

New Year's bash, everybody is looking forward to Century 21. The most

popular resorts are already booked solid for Dec. 31, 1999, and the

pessimists who think there won't be a January 1, 2000, have already picked

out the best trees to wait in, so they can be closer to heaven when the end

comes. Unfortunately, there's some disagreement over just when the next

thousand years will start. Purists assure us that the millennium won't

turn until Dec. 31, 2000, which is why Arthur C. Clarke called his

apocalyptic space odyssey "2001." That gives us more time to plan the

party, and we'll get a whole extra year to use the word "millennium." But

if you're going to spend that bonus year sitting up in a tree, I can see

why a more precise method of dating things would be useful to you.

    Runner-up for word of the year is "Windows95." The Microsoft

Corporation spent a lot of money to ensure that Windows95 would be the best

word of 1995, but unlike the Beatles CD, Windows95 didn't "walk out the

door." Those who did buy it were soon jamming help lines to find out how

to make the new operating system live up to its promise. Even if it was

initially disappointing, Windows95 is expected to cause a major shift in

how we use computers, though Microsoft may have to wait for Windows2000 to

meet its sales quota.

    And now it's time to announce the word of the year for 1995,

actually a phrase: "the World Wide Web." The World Wide Web-the Web, for

short-is a vast collection of computer sites, a virtual reality somewhere

in cyberspace. It's called the Web because everything on it is connected.

Just click on a picture or some highlighted text, and suddenly you're

someplace else. Not only can you explore the Web, but anyone with a

computer and a modem can create their own Web "home page." Businesses are

using home pages to advertise their wares. Schools and museums have home

pages. Even Congress and NASA have home pages-but don't try to use them if

the government happens to be shut down for a budget crisis: webmasters, who

maintain home pages, are considered nonessential personnel.

    Web home pages are popular with individuals as well. You can put

your picture on your home page, or a picture of your dog. You can put your

diary, or your resume, or your favorite recipes on it. I'm not sure why

anyone would want one, but personal home pages have become so popular that

people without them are starting to feel left out. I don't have a home

page, but I'm on the Web. Someone put my picture on their Web page.

Someone else put an article I wrote on the Web. I found both by accident,

while browsing the Web. You may be on the Web too, without knowing it.

Someone out there is putting us all on the Web, one by one, a virtual

spider collecting us for her own inscrutable ends, or perhaps just a

Microsoft employee. The Web is becoming as inevitable as the millennium.

It has earned its place as the word of the year.

------------------------



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 13:57:32 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: woty



Here at Auburn, "hey" is the equivalent of the Texas A&M "howdy." It's

not a new word; in fact, it's so much a part of the institution that "hey

day" is celebrated each year.



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Tue, 19 Dec 1995 debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU wrote:



  Here's my personal list, finally.

 

  The Word of the Year

  by Dennis Baron

 

  It's time again to announce the word of the year, and one of the finalists

  for 1995 is "hey." Hey is fast becoming the universal informal greeting.

  Like aloha and shalom, hey can mean both hello and good-bye. It's used

  more than "hi," and a lot more than "hello." The exclamation "hey" goes

  back to the twelfth century. Medieval children often said "Hey!" to which

  their middle-aged parents replied, "Hey is for horses." "Hey" as a

  greeting made its dictionary debut less than five years ago. It may be a

  shortened form of "Hey, what's happenin'?" My children say "hey" all the

  time, both coming and going. And their medieval parents still reply, "Hey

  is for horses."

      Another finalist for word of the year is "cool," which is actually

  pronounced "kul." Like hey, cool is popular among the young, who act like

  they invented it. In fact cool first became hot back in the 1950s, as part

  of the lingo of jazz musicians. Like those wide ties in my closet, "cool"

  is back in style, and if you want to sound like a nineties type of person,

  you might want to trot out a "Hey, cool," every once in a while-but please,

  leave those wide ties on the rack.

      Speaking of a nineties type of person, the turning of the year has

  turned public attention toward the millennium, and while this year the word

  "millennium" rates the second runner-up spot, in a few short years it

  should move up to word of the year in its own right. Whether the

  millennium brings the destruction of civilization or just one heck of a big

  New Year's bash, everybody is looking forward to Century 21. The most

  popular resorts are already booked solid for Dec. 31, 1999, and the

  pessimists who think there won't be a January 1, 2000, have already picked

  out the best trees to wait in, so they can be closer to heaven when the end

  comes. Unfortunately, there's some disagreement over just when the next

  thousand years will start. Purists assure us that the millennium won't

  turn until Dec. 31, 2000, which is why Arthur C. Clarke called his

  apocalyptic space odyssey "2001." That gives us more time to plan the

  party, and we'll get a whole extra year to use the word "millennium." But

  if you're going to spend that bonus year sitting up in a tree, I can see

  why a more precise method of dating things would be useful to you.

      Runner-up for word of the year is "Windows95." The Microsoft

  Corporation spent a lot of money to ensure that Windows95 would be the best

  word of 1995, but unlike the Beatles CD, Windows95 didn't "walk out the

  door." Those who did buy it were soon jamming help lines to find out how

  to make the new operating system live up to its promise. Even if it was

  initially disappointing, Windows95 is expected to cause a major shift in

  how we use computers, though Microsoft may have to wait for Windows2000 to

  meet its sales quota.

      And now it's time to announce the word of the year for 1995,

  actually a phrase: "the World Wide Web." The World Wide Web-the Web, for

  short-is a vast collection of computer sites, a virtual reality somewhere

  in cyberspace. It's called the Web because everything on it is connected.

  Just click on a picture or some highlighted text, and suddenly you're

  someplace else. Not only can you explore the Web, but anyone with a

  computer and a modem can create their own Web "home page." Businesses are

  using home pages to advertise their wares. Schools and museums have home

  pages. Even Congress and NASA have home pages-but don't try to use them if

  the government happens to be shut down for a budget crisis: webmasters, who

  maintain home pages, are considered nonessential personnel.

      Web home pages are popular with individuals as well. You can put

  your picture on your home page, or a picture of your dog. You can put your

  diary, or your resume, or your favorite recipes on it. I'm not sure why

  anyone would want one, but personal home pages have become so popular that

  people without them are starting to feel left out. I don't have a home

  page, but I'm on the Web. Someone put my picture on their Web page.

  Someone else put an article I wrote on the Web. I found both by accident,

  while browsing the Web. You may be on the Web too, without knowing it.

  Someone out there is putting us all on the Web, one by one, a virtual

  spider collecting us for her own inscrutable ends, or perhaps just a

  Microsoft employee. The Web is becoming as inevitable as the millennium.

  It has earned its place as the word of the year.

  ------------------------

 

  Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

 

  Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

  University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

  608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

  Urbana, Illinois 61801

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:11:29 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: "harsh" as woty



I don't know about a word of the year, but the word

of the year (student slang?) with my 17-year-old daughter is

"harsh" as an adjectival intensifier in a positive sense.

Is this local, off tv, out of a movie, or what?





Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:23:15 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Fwd: Re: troubleshooting in Japanese



 Date:     Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:43:58 -0800

 From: Karen Kay  karenk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

 Sender:    HONYAKU List  honyaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eva.dc.LSOFT.COM 

  Subject:   Re: troubleshooting in Japanese

 

 Mariko Nakanishi said:

   Verb inflection of "troubleshoot": According to Webster's Ninth

  Collegiate,

   its past participle is "troubleshot." Doesn't it sound kind of funny?

 

 Yes, but so does 'troubleshooted'. I don't think I've heard this in

 the past tense.

 

 Karen

  karenk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



Anyone have any enlightenments to help our Honyaku translators' forum?



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:48:24 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: "harsh" as woty



 I don't know about a word of the year, but the word

 of the year (student slang?) with my 17-year-old daughter is

 "harsh" as an adjectival intensifier in a positive sense.

 Is this local, off tv, out of a movie, or what?



In a positive sense? Hmm. That's interesting.

My friends all use the adjective with some frequency,

but for them (and for me) it is negative, but in a

hip way.



For example,

Friend A: Did you see that girl he's with?

Friend B: Yeah -- not a looker, huh?

Friend A: Not a looker?! She looks like the poster

    child for Crack Babies...

Friend B: Oh, man! That's *way* harsh!



And speaking of "way" -- I'd have to say that that

particular word has gained widespread usage in the

past couple of years as an adverb. Maybe not WOTY,

but definitely a novel lexical entry. =^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:48:25 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Deja vu



 Yogi Berra, having inherited the managership of the New York Yankees,

 also inherited

 Casey Stengel's Stengelistic type comments, or now what I call Mantra

 of a Yogi.



 One of his more well known is "It's deja vu all over again."



 Another is " The future's not what it used to be."

__________________________

 And let's not forget another Yogi-ism: Good pitching always beats good

 hitting, and vice versa.

__________________________

And then there's that restaurant that's so crowded, nobody goes there anymore.



           Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 14:03:02 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: troubleshooting in Japanese



Honyaku translators. Hmmmm... It must be deja vu all over again. ;-)



-Bruce



On Tue, 19 Dec 1995 15:23:15 Benjamin Barrett wrote:



 Anyone have any enlightenments to help our Honyaku translators' forum?

 

 yoroshiku

 Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:10:46 EST

From:  john oyerinde  oyerindj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DB.ERAU.EDU 

Subject: HELP!!! DON'T LET A GREAT MIND WASTE



----------

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                             December 9,1995



To Whom It May Concern:



                     INTRODUCTION



Please let me first introduce myself to you, before I tell you about my amazing technological

invention.



My name is John Oyerinde,and I am an undergraduate rocket science student,studying in the

United States Of America. The institution I attend is called,Embry-Riddle Aeronautical

University,located in Daytona Beach Florida.



I am currently in dire need of financial assistance to complete my education,because my funds

were abruptly cut off from my country,Nigeria, due to the terrible political and economic

crisis there.



The economic crisis led to a devaluation of the Nigerian currency,which is currently

fourty five times less than the United States dollar. This made it virtually impossible

for my sponsors,to continue to finance my education. Furthermore,I am not a United States

citizen,which disqualifies me from receiving financial assistance from either the university,

or the United States government.



I have successsfully completed two years of study and I need 30,000 Dollars to complete the

remaining two years of my rocket science/aerospace engineering bachelors degree program.



In light of my frustrating financial situation, I earnestly appeal to you for whatever financial

assistance that you can honestly afford,even if it is ONE DOLLAR,or it's equivalent,in your

region of the world. I would sincerely appreciate it.



               WHERE TO MAIL YOUR DONATION



                 John Oyerinde

                 P.O.Box 10341

                 Daytona Beach,Florida 32120

                 U.S.A



I have sent a seperate file as an attachment along with this letter. This file contains an

official letter from the university which I attend,that substantiates my story.



Thank you in advance for your consideration and generous financial assistance. May God bless

you abundantly in return.

                   Sincerely,

                   John Oyerinde





 P.S. HOW I INTEND TO USE MY ROCKET SCIENCE SKILLS TO BENIFIT HUMANITY



I am currently doing private research on an amazing device called,an Engine Noise

Eliminator (E.N.E).

This device totally eliminates the noise from any engine,whether it be an aircraft,automobile,

motorcycle, Lawn mower e.t.c

This device is both attachable and detachable,making it convenient to install on any engine.



I strongly believe,that by the grace of God,this invention will be a major technological

breakthrough,which will tremendously benifit humanity,in our efforts to reduce noise pollution.













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end



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:34:50 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Gutters



"Gutters" is one of the regional words discussed by Kurath in

Chapter III of his Word Geography. In looking at this item in

LANCS records, I keep coming across a variant with a transcription

something like the following (No detail on vowel in second word):



    [ li^id, traft]



Even though the most common response is gutters, this variant shows

up often. My question is, is this a variation on the pronunciation of

"eave trough" or is it some lexical variant? (Clear instances of

eaves trough do occur.)  The closest lexical item I can think of

is "leave."



Yuh hep 'preciated.



Terry Irons

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 19:42:56 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: Re: Gutters



 Date:     Tue, 19 Dec 1995 17:34:50 EST

 From: Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

 

 "Gutters" is one of the regional words discussed by Kurath in

 Chapter III of his Word Geography. In looking at this item in

 LANCS records, I keep coming across a variant with a transcription

 something like the following (No detail on vowel in second word):

 

     [ li^id, traft]

 

 Even though the most common response is gutters, this variant shows

 up often. My question is, is this a variation on the pronunciation of

 "eave trough" or is it some lexical variant? (Clear instances of

 eaves trough do occur.)  The closest lexical item I can think of

 is "leave."



If "leave" comes to mind for you, "leaf trough" shouldn't be too far off.

yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Dec 1995 to 19 Dec 1995

************************************************



Message 1:

From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Wed Dec 20 23:10 CST 1995

Date:   Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:01:30 -0500

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Dec 1995 to 20 Dec 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 



There are 17 messages totalling 779 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. HELP!!! DON'T LET A GREAT MIND WASTE

 2. posting length (3)

 3. Gutter (2)

 4. het/heated

 5. ADS annual meeting - tape recorder? (4)

 6. Gutters (3)

 7. Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas (2)

 8. P.S. re the Long Message



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 08:49:42 -0600

From:  Jim McCulloch  mcculloch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU 

Subject: Re: HELP!!! DON'T LET A GREAT MIND WASTE



go away



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 10:04:22 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: posting length



This isn't strictly speaking about dialects, however, I think it concerns

everyone on the list, so here goes. Like most of you, I suspect, I was

disconcerted to have the ADS digest last night filled up not only with a

poorly formatted off-topic posting but with 1900 lines of binary file. Given

the size of this garbage, I can imagine that some ADS-Lers had problems with

disk space as a result. In any case, in a fit of whatever, I fired off a

message to the University of Georgia postmaster (we're administered through

them). He informs me that there are things that Natalie, as list owner, can

set; I had asked about a maximum posting length. I know the general issue of

moderation has been discussed before, and rejected, for reasons I agree with.

But there must be something we can do in terms of a filter on message length.

So, how about it folks. If there's a flag that Natalie can set (is there,

Natalie?), that's a one-time effort. I think it would increase everyone's

enjoyment of ADS-L. Comments?



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 09:47:41 PST

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Gutter



Terry Irons,



Virginia McDavid, who has had more experience than anyone in

deciphering Atlas records, says that, if you will provide the

record number in which your puzzling entry occurs, she will be

happy to try to decipher it for you,



Send the State and Record Number and I will pass it on to her.





Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 11:31:56 -0600

From:  miriam meyers  mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUS1.MSUS.EDU 

Subject: Re: het/heated



We had this in Atlanta in the 40s, too.



Miriam Meyers, Metro State U/Mpls.-St. Paul



   I had 'het up' as a kid (Louisville 1940's) with no realization that it was

   related to 'heat.' My use of it was imitative, however; speakers who

 

 What he said (except Mississippi, not Louisville). Some of the expressions

 I grew up with were those of a supposedly delightful great great aunt, who

 was originally from the mountains of North Alabama and who died shortly

 before I was born. My mother still quotes her often -- expressions like

 "hot as flugens," "all het up," and many, many others.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:40:03 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: ADS annual meeting - tape recorder?



Is anyone planning to bring a tape recorder to the ADS annual meeting in

Chicago next week?



If it is a recorder with decent sound quality and volume to use in a medium

sized meeting room, I would like to borrow it to use with Sali Tagliamonte

and Shana Poplack's paper Friday afternoon, Dec. 29, approx 4:45 to 5:05 pm.

They are the only ones who have requested this particular kind of AV

equipment, and we could save trouble and expense by borrowing one you happen

to bring.



In return for the savings, you'd get a FREE LUNCH at our annual luncheon

Saturday the 30th, Virginia McDavid speaking.



You can reply directly to me  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com  rather than the whole list.



One cancellation to our program, by the way: Silke Van Ness will not be able

to attend to give her talk on Pennsylvania German at 3:30 pm Friday the 29th.

So the schedule for other talks may be adjusted slightly.



See you all in Chicago, I hope! - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:14:37 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: posting length



Thanks, Alice, for voicing the concern. Last night, I happened to log in

from my lap top and my system jammed on that particular message, which

caused me to lose all unread messages loaded before it (10 pieces), as

I resorted to the desperate solution of switching my computer off. I

agree, there should be some upper limit on the size of messages.



Merry Christmas to all of you guys!



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 13:24:42 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS annual meeting - tape recorder?



Allan:

 I'll borrow a portable, professional tape recorder from our Language

Laboratories.

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 14:01:14 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gutters



DARE Vol III will have an entry for 'lead trough,' with variants 'lead,'

'lead-off trough,' and 'lead pipe." We have quotes from 1902 DN 2.238, 1904

DN 2.382, 1906 DN 3.120, 1907 DN 3.223, c1960 Wilson Collection, 1966 Dakin

Dial. Vocab. Ohio R. Valley 2.59, 6 DARE Infs (4 from KY), and 1 TX inf

from LAGS. We're labelling it "chiefly S Midl." Presumably these lead the

water to the downspout.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:08:58 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gutter



Tom,



Thanks for the communication from Virginia. I believe, however, that

Joan has answered my query. I suspected it may be "lead trough,"

which will be a DARE entry, but I have never heard it before.



It occurs 13 times in the KY records I am working with, far more than

any variant other than "gutters." I am glad to hear it labelled as

chiefly S. Midland. The distribution across KY and into Ohio, when

I get it mapped, may provide some insights into boundary questions.



Of course, I won't hesitate to ask for help again when I need it.



Tell Viriginia "Merry Christmas" for me. (I've grown tired of being

careful to use the PC "Happy Holidays." Has anyone else notice it

increasingly replacing the former expression?)



Terry Irons

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:21:48 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS annual meeting - tape recorder?



Allan,

Could I recommend that Miklops Kontra, who is in the country and coming to

the meeting, be substituted for Silke? He is currently very much involved

with the preservation of Hungarian (and anti-Hungarian laws) outside

Hungary. It would fit nicely with our endangerment program and would not

require any program shuffling. I am sure he can be recruited.

Just a suggestion.

Dennis

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 





 Is anyone planning to bring a tape recorder to the ADS annual meeting in

 Chicago next week?

 

 If it is a recorder with decent sound quality and volume to use in a medium

 sized meeting room, I would like to borrow it to use with Sali Tagliamonte

 and Shana Poplack's paper Friday afternoon, Dec. 29, approx 4:45 to 5:05 pm.

 They are the only ones who have requested this particular kind of AV

 equipment, and we could save trouble and expense by borrowing one you happen

 to bring.

 

 In return for the savings, you'd get a FREE LUNCH at our annual luncheon

 Saturday the 30th, Virginia McDavid speaking.

 

 You can reply directly to me  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com  rather than the whole list.

 

 One cancellation to our program, by the way: Silke Van Ness will not be able

 to attend to give her talk on Pennsylvania German at 3:30 pm Friday the 29th.

 So the schedule for other talks may be adjusted slightly.

 

 See you all in Chicago, I hope! - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:21:57 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gutters



 

  DARE Vol III will have an entry for 'lead trough,' with variants 'lead,'

  'lead-off trough,' and 'lead pipe." We have quotes from 1902 DN 2.238, 1904

  DN 2.382, 1906 DN 3.120, 1907 DN 3.223, c1960 Wilson Collection, 1966 Dakin

  Dial. Vocab. Ohio R. Valley 2.59, 6 DARE Infs (4 from KY), and 1 TX inf

  from LAGS. We're labelling it "chiefly S Midl." Presumably these lead the

  water to the downspout.

 

  Joan Hall

 

You may include the following LANCS informants: KY1C, KY3B, KY8A, KY9A,

KY10A, KY12A, KY12C, KY12D, KY18B, KY19A, KY19B, KY19C, KY20A, KY20B,

KY31D. These communities, bye the bye, are all in the northern half

of the state.



Speaking of the excellent work, what is the target availability of

DARE Vol III? Can we place advance orders?



Terry Irons





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 17:24:28 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gutters



They are indeed chiefly South Midlands (as I am). The 'lead trough' (which

I had forgot) is indeed so named becuase it leads into the downspout.

Dennis (Old-timer) Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



 DARE Vol III will have an entry for 'lead trough,' with variants 'lead,'

 'lead-off trough,' and 'lead pipe." We have quotes from 1902 DN 2.238, 1904

 DN 2.382, 1906 DN 3.120, 1907 DN 3.223, c1960 Wilson Collection, 1966 Dakin

 Dial. Vocab. Ohio R. Valley 2.59, 6 DARE Infs (4 from KY), and 1 TX inf

 from LAGS. We're labelling it "chiefly S Midl." Presumably these lead the

 water to the downspout.

 

 Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 16:15:58 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas



  Tell Viriginia "Merry Christmas" for me. (I've grown tired of being

  careful to use the PC "Happy Holidays." Has anyone else notice it

  increasingly replacing the former expression?)

 

  Terry Irons





I've never thought much about how PC it is, but I do often use the HH

expression when I don't know which holiday the group is celebrating.

It is less awkward than, "Merry Christmas &/or Happy Hanukkah."

Probably most people on this list intend to celebrate Christmas. But

for those of you who are already a few candles into Hanukkah,

greetings to you too. And, of course, let's all have a happy new

year--unless you only celebrate the new year according the Hebrew

calendar and have therefore already begun your new year. Or unless

it is the Chineese calendar . . . etc. PC or not, if I do not know

how much I have in common with the people I write to, "Happy

Holidays" is closer to my intended message.



HH to you all,



Tom

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 18:42:27 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas



Well, how about just sending yall "Season's Greetings?"

It just strikes me now that "Season" is used as above only during the

Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa holidays. Is my observation correct? Any such

uses around Easter or any other religious holiday? The question crossed

my mind because I thought that "Season" might function as a shifter/

"embreyeur." However, if it is part of an idiom, the proposed analysis is

not so compelling. Any suggestions?

Best wishes,

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene          s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago         312-702-8531

Department of Linguistics       FAX: 312-702-9861

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:39:11 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: posting length



  So, how about it folks. If there's a flag that Natalie can set (is there,

  Natalie?), that's a one-time effort. I think it would increase everyone's



There probably is. I think I've seen something like that mentioned on

LSTOWN-L, but I didn't pay much attention since it didn't seem relevant

to the lists I was runing. I'll try to find out (but I have LSTOWN-L

set to 'nomail' right now because I'm out of town and have tried to cut

down on the amount of mail coming in until I'm home again the first week

in January).



The reason ADS-L got that spam was our place in the alphabet. I'm sure

the listserv spam-filter caught it shortly after the A's.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Dec 1995 20:42:26 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS annual meeting - tape recorder?



Dennis has a great idea here--I say, "Let's hear Miklops!" (erstwhile

Miklos).



On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



 

  Allan,

  Could I recommend that Miklops Kontra, who is in the country and coming to

  the meeting, be substituted for Silke? He is currently very much involved

  with the preservation of Hungarian (and anti-Hungarian laws) outside

  Hungary. It would fit nicely with our endangerment program and would not

  require any program shuffling. I am sure he can be recruited.

  Just a suggestion.

  Dennis

   preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 

 

 

   Is anyone planning to bring a tape recorder to the ADS annual meeting in

   Chicago next week?

   

   If it is a recorder with decent sound quality and volume to use in a medium

   sized meeting room, I would like to borrow it to use with Sali Tagliamonte

   and Shana Poplack's paper Friday afternoon, Dec. 29, approx 4:45 to 5:05 pm.

   They are the only ones who have requested this particular kind of AV

   equipment, and we could save trouble and expense by borrowing one you happen

   to bring.

   

   In return for the savings, you'd get a FREE LUNCH at our annual luncheon

   Saturday the 30th, Virginia McDavid speaking.

   

   You can reply directly to me  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com  rather than the whole list.

   

   One cancellation to our program, by the way: Silke Van Ness will not be able

   to attend to give her talk on Pennsylvania German at 3:30 pm Friday the 29th.

   So the schedule for other talks may be adjusted slightly.

   

   See you all in Chicago, I hope! - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 01:50:39 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: P.S. re the Long Message



I deleted the long message on the first screen, which is my normal routine

with junk mail, so I didn't even notice the binary file attached. But I

trust that you all know that it is definitely unwise to decode and download

a binary file unless you know the person who sent it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Dec 1995 to 20 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 26 messages totalling 724 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Merry Christmas vs Season's Greetings, etc. (2)

 2. holiday greetings (3)

 3. Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas (3)

 4. Setting Maximum Length

 5. Deja vu

 6. ADS annual meeting - substitute

 7. WOTY from the Algeos (2)

 8. WOTY from David Barnhart (4)

 9. P.S. re the Long Message (4)

 10. DARE availability

 11. quack digger, quaigle

 12. Discourse Analysis Conference Call for Papers

 13. neuticals

 14. Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:39:14 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Merry Christmas vs Season's Greetings, etc.



Sali and all y'all,

    Merry Christmas and Season's Greetings!

I'm ancient enough to recall Season's Greetings as being a standard PC form

from the 1930's -- I used to associate it particularly with cards from

businesses (which no longer spend the money for that), which gave it an

impersonal "commercial" quality. "Happy Holidays", which is more recent, may

be an attempt to avoid that. Christmas has become so widely observed as a

solstitial gift-giving holiday that it is not unusual even for Buddhists in

Taiwan or Korea to wish one another the language-specific equivalent of

"Merry Christmas", or even the English-specific form. One of my Jewish

colleagues, while celebrating Hanukkah, told me he put up "Christmas lights"

on his house, so in this genericized sense, "Merry Christmas" may be used

to refer to the holiday season even here. Given that even the non-sectarian

Federal Government recognizes Christmas as an official holiday, one may with

PC impunity wish anyone a "Merry Christmas" in this sense. I usually temper

my greeting to someone I know is of another faith by making a combined

good wish as at the outset above, but I do not wish to obscure the fact that

for me personally, it remains a deeply religious occasion.

    I'll be signing off soon for the holidays, so in the meantime,

let me wish everyone out there a Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, as well

as Xin Nian Kuai Le (New Year Joyful)!

    Y feliz Navidad y un prospero A~no Nuevo!

        --Rudy



        --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:45:22 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: holiday greetings



 Tell Viriginia "Merry Christmas" for me. (I've grown tired of being

 careful to use the PC "Happy Holidays." Has anyone else notice it

 increasingly replacing the former expression?)



Given the variety of beliefs round these parts, some of us have started

saying merely "Happy midwinter holiday of your choice."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 00:45:26 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas



At 6:42 PM 12/20/95, Salikoko S. Mufwene wrote:

 Well, how about just sending yall "Season's Greetings?"

 It just strikes me now that "Season" is used as above only during the

 Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa holidays. Is my observation correct? Any such

 uses around Easter or any other religious holiday? The question crossed

 my mind because I thought that "Season" might function as a shifter/

 "embreyeur." However, if it is part of an idiom, the proposed analysis is

 not so compelling. Any suggestions?



Now that you mention it, I think the only other times I've heard "Season"

applied to something, was something specific - like fashion - as in the

Fall Season. Don't think I've heard it in other areas.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:08:16 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Setting Maximum Length



I just searched some of the archives from LSTOWN-L and found what I think

is the answer to how to set a limit on length of list postings. The

question now is what length to set. Since I don't have space problems

and delete junk mail on the first screen anyway, I don't have any real

sense of what other people think of as too long. Please let me know.



Another way to prevent such mail, or at least lessen its likelihood, would

be to limit postings on ADS-L to subscribers only. This wouldn't stop a

spammer who wanted to go to the trouble of subscribing before sending the

spam, but probably most spammers wouldn't do that. The only disadvantage

would be to people who sometimes send postings from different addresses.

Do many of you send list postings from addresses different from the one

your ADS-L subscription is in?



Let me know which of the methods above you think would be better for

discouraging future spam. And let me know what maximum length to set if

we go with the first method. (If I don't reply promptly, it's because

I'm not online as much as usual when I'm out of town.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 07:38:43 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: Deja vu



Thanks for all the replies about deja vu. The Yogi Berra origin seems

believable to me, especially since I probably do hear the comment more

from sports announcers than anywhere else. There are a lot of anywhere

elses, though.



Happy Holidays to all, and for that matter, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah,

Seasons Greetings, and Happy New Year, and to all a good night.



Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 09:07:45 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: holiday greetings



Just did some field work with my wife and daughter as informants. The

formula with "Kwanzaa" is "Happy Kwanzaa." I did not know the tradition

until I came to the United States. Kwanzaa is not celebrated in my part of

Africa (western part of Zaire). If you have discussed African influence on

African-American language varieties, or followed the debate on this, you

should understand why I had to clarify where I am from--the continent is so

heterogeneous linguistically and culturally. I have no authority on

"Kwanzaa."

Best wishes,

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:10:58 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: ADS annual meeting - substitute



Dear Dennis,

 We've turned down some late proposals for the ADS program; but maybe Miklos

would be an unusual opportunity and exception. I don't know. This is a

question for Walt Wolfram, program chair and chair of the special session.

I'm forwarding a copy of your proposal to him.

 In any case, thanks for the suggestion.

Merry Season - Allan



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:11:21 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: WOTY from the Algeos



AS usual, ADS will choose Words of the Year at next week's annual meeting. We

expect to post the final nominees after they're chosen Thursday the 28th.

Meanwhile, here are the nominations from John and Adele Algeo. Your comments

are welcome. - Allan Metcalf

***************************

Our nominations for the various New Words of 1995 are the

following. We have no single nomination to make, but World Wide Web

(WWW, W3) seems to us to be clearly the most important of these items

and the one that will have the greatest future impact, on both language

and society. It is not "new" this year in "real time" but is a "new

word" by our stipulated definition, namely it is not listed in the

printings we have of any of our ten dictionaries of record. Electronic

communication and storage continues to be the most salient source of

neologisms, but in the following list we have tried to include words

from a number of other fields of discourse for variety.



 anxious class   A category of middle-class persons worried

about their economic security

 applet   [appl(ication) + -et] A small software program, such

as a calendar, memo pad, or card game; or a piece of a larger program

that can be retrieved on a network computer, used, and discarded

afterwards

 Astroturf   Organized public response to a political issue

appearing to be a "grass-roots" movement but instead created by

special-interest advertising

 beat down  A beating delivered to a gang member as a part of a

ritual, as for initiation or resignation

 big box   A large chain store specializing in one kind of

merchandise; a "category killer"

 coho   A house or unit in a cohousing development, in which

residents live in separate units clustered around a common building

used for activities such as social events, laundry, and dining

 copyleft   A prohibition against making a profit from

distributing the source code of free computer software

 corporate welfare   Government economic support of corporate

business

 drive-through delivery   A shortened hospital stay for

childbirth required by some insurance companies

 Easter egg   An unexpected operation programmed into commercial

software as a joke and activated by a secret command

 EGG, Evaporating Gaseous Globule   A mass of gas inside which

stars are formed

 EQ; emotional intelligence   The ability to manage one's

emotions, seen as a factor in achievement

 Generation Y   The generation following Generation X; the

post-post-Baby Boomers

 go postal   [from a number of shootings by postal workers in

post offices]   To act irrationally, especially violently, from

stress and frustration in the workplace

 gustnado   A tornado-like vortex on the approaching edge of a

thunderstorm

 hotlink   A computer connection made directly by clicking on a

screen icon

 legacy   Of computer hardware and software, obsolescent but

still in use

 leptin   A hormone that removes fat from the body

 meme   A unit of cultural information that spreads from mind to

mind like a virus and propagates itself like a gene

 metadata   Information useful for locating other information,

especially on the Internet; meta-information

 meta-information   Data useful for locating other data,

especially on the Internet; metadata

 mindblind   Unable to receive, process, or respond to certain

social situations, a condition associated with autism

 mind virus   A unit of cultural information that induces

obsessive behavior on the part of those who receive it

 mouse potato   A computer couch potato; one who uses the

computer obsessively, frequently, or for prolonged periods

 multiculti   Multicultural

 nag screen   A computer message reminding the user to take some

action, especially to make a payment for shareware

 nastygram   An unwelcome message received on the Internet

 network computer   An "information appliance," now in its

prototype stage, consisting of a monitor, keyboard, mouse and modem

connection, directly accessing an Internet server, from which software

will be downloaded and on which files will be stored, thus eliminating

the need for an individual PC and hard drive and available at a

fraction of the initial cost of a conventional PC

 Newt   A formative alluding, usually uncomplimentarily, to

Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, as in Newt Age, Newt Dealer, Newt

kids on the block, Newt World Order, Newt-o-nomics, Newtian, Newtie,

Newtoid, Newtomania, Newtonian, Newtopia, Newtphobia, Newtritional,

Newtron bomb, Newtspeak, Newtster, NewtWatch, Newtworking, Newty Boy,

also femiNewtie, King Newt

 outworking   [cf OED outwork 'work done outside a factory';

outworker 'one who does outwork']   Of west European and American

businesses, operating manufacturing plants in countries of the world,

such as eastern Europe, where labor costs are lower than in the country

of the company's headquarters

 overclass   A highly educated and economically privileged class

 password sniffer   A secret computer program that records the

names and passwords of users of a network

 queue jockey   A telephone operator on a computer technical

support number who plays music and informs callers how long they can

expect to wait for a technician

 spinning also RPM  Riding a stationary racing bicycle as a form

of exercise while listening to music

 spoofing   Impersonating another computer terminal in order to

gain access illegally to information from a network intended for the

impersonated terminal

 superatom   An artificial state of matter consisting of atoms

of rubidium gas cooled to nearly absolute zero, at which temperature

the atoms lose their separate identities and form a single whole

 Tejano   A Texas-Mexican style of music featuring the accordion

 trunking   Locking the owner of a stolen car in its trunk

before joyriding and abandoning the car with the owner still in the

trunk

 Web-gram   An electronic message posted on an "Electric

Postcard" World Wide Web site, retrievable from it upon notification by

e-mail

    webliography   Bibliography of materials on the Internet

    webmaster   An expert in the use of the World Wide Web

 Webzine   A magazine on the World Wide Web

 World Wide Web; WWW; W3   A hypermedia information storage

system linking resources around the world, accessible by computer modem

 zone out   To relax by engaging in mindless activity like TV

watching or spinning



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:11:26 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: WOTY from David Barnhart



AS usual, ADS will choose Words of the Year at next week's annual meeting. We

expect to post the final nominees after they're chosen Thursday the 28th.

Meanwhile, here are the nominations from David Barnhart. Your comments are

welcome. - Allan Metcalf

**************************

barnied....wrecked

boli...........an Italian sandwich

browfield..............a vacant city lot

cream...................money

digerati.................digital literati

elves.....................kind of lightning

fuhrman, v. ...........to exhibit a kind of racial prejudice

gaydar..................ability to spot gay people

greenmail..............environmentally friendly mailing service

human capital.......educational achievements of a country's population

IPL.........................Internet public library

I-way....................Information Superhighway

jet..........................another new kind of lightning

jet outware, v. .....to leave

laptop...................notebook or laptop computer

leaderless resistance ....... decentralized terrorism

militia....................any privately organized military force

nomination market.............. futures market in political bets

nonverbal conversation..... fisticuffs

pit: the pit.............protected area in a collapsed building

postal: go postal................. berserk

rolling stopper .....driver who coasts through a stop sign

Saffir-Simpson scale..........classification system for tropical storms

seeker service....church service for proselytizing

sero-discordant..................having conflicting HIV test results

severation ..........dissociation of a person with his government

sidebar................an aside

sprite...................yet another new kind of lightning

starter marriage.................first marriage

stepping.............. being in your face

street luge...........sled with wheels for riding on streets

tax, v. .................to take

techno-intoxication...............fascination with and craving for electronic

games

they.....................singular gender-neutral pronoun

24-7.....................twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week

Vanna White shrimp.............large shrimp for restaurant market

waymazing.........more than most amazing

whatever............as a gratuitous remark



There are a few more which have yet to be incorporated into the list.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:31:00 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



Earlier, I proposed (compliments of Norman Sanders, with several other members

of my dept. agreeing) the verb 'newt." Asked for a quotation, I was stymied.

Several of us reall seeing it, but no one can now find it.



Can anyone help?



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 08:45:13 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: P.S. re the Long Message



Natalie,



Granted this is somewhat off the subject of this list, but perhaps others

are as computer-naive as I am and would appreciate some enlightenment,

namely: 1) What is "the first screen"? and 2) While my ignorance of how

to do it would prevent my decoding and downloading the binary file and I

wouldn't have had the interest in this one to prompt me to find out,

nevertheless I don't know why it would have been unwise.



Could you explain?



Peter



On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  I deleted the long message on the first screen, which is my normal routine

  with junk mail, so I didn't even notice the binary file attached. But I

  trust that you all know that it is definitely unwise to decode and download

  a binary file unless you know the person who sent it.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 10:49:32 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas



   Tell Viriginia "Merry Christmas" for me. (I've grown tired of being

   careful to use the PC "Happy Holidays." Has anyone else notice it

   increasingly replacing the former expression?)



 It is less awkward than, "Merry Christmas &/or Happy Hanukkah."



And how. I live with two other women,

both of whom are Jewish.

Things get a little complicated this time

of year, but of course I wished them Happy Hanukkah

on Monday, and they wished it right back to me.

They each gave me Hanukkah presents, and I have

Christmas gifts for them, which will be accompanied

by a heartfelt greeting of "Merry Christmas."

This accompanied by the fact that my best friend

celebrates Kwanzaa, has led me to the use of

"Happy Holidays" on my greeting cards at this

time of the year. I don't view it as particularly

PC, just perhaps a little lazy. =^]



 And, of course, let's all have a happy new

 year--unless you only celebrate the new year according the Hebrew

 calendar and have therefore already begun your new year. Or unless

 it is the Chineese calendar . . . etc.



Yes, so far this year I've celebrated four new years:

January 1st (my new year!); the Chinese new year;

Diwali; and Rosh Hashanah. They're always a great

excuse to party the night away.



Happy Holidays to you all!



--Kate



P.S. I promise not to be offended by anyone who

wants to wish me a happy birthday in ANY language

or dialect. (My big day is Saturday.) Yippee!



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:28:52 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from the Algeos



Personally, I like "corporate welfare" best of these; "copyleft" has

been around computing for years, and I don't think I've seen it more

this year than in 1994 or 1993.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:14:59 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: holiday greetings



As far as I know, Kwanzaa is not celebrated anywhere in Africa:

it was invented in the United States sometime around 1970. I

generally wish people a Happy New Year: it's specific without

assuming anything about their religious preferences.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:23:06 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: P.S. re the Long Message



 Granted this is somewhat off the subject of this list, but perhaps others

 are as computer-naive as I am and would appreciate some enlightenment,

 namely: 1) What is "the first screen"?



Some messages are short enough that they are contained within the screen

that opens when you read a message. Others are longer, and you have to

scroll down past the first screen to read the whole message.





and 2) While my ignorance of how

 to do it would prevent my decoding and downloading the binary file and I

 wouldn't have had the interest in this one to prompt me to find out,

 nevertheless I don't know why it would have been unwise.



A decoded & downloaded binary file can become an "executable file"--that

is, a piece of software. An executable can contain a virus, if the person

who sent it (or the person he or she got it from) is malicious enough to

have planted one. A virus could, for example, erase your entire hard drive,

or other unpleasant things.



Kate Catmull



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 11:37:48 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE availability



We still hope that Volume III of DARE will be in bookstores by the fall of

'96. Unfortunately, there isn't any mechanism for placing advance orders

with the Press, but we will certainly make sure that you all know when it

comes out!



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:14:40 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: P.S. re the Long Message



"The first screen" just means the amount of the message that fits on one

computer screen (which depends on what computer and mail program you're

using), and is what you see first when you read an email message.



Downloading binary files that came from people you don't know is risky

because a binary file could be a virus. It probably isn't, but it could

be. (It's probably something merely useless, like a bitmapped picture

of a fir tree.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 12:03:52 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: quack digger, quaigle



Is anyone familiar with either or these terms?



1) Quack digger--A type of harrow intended for eradicating quack grass



2) Quaigle--A queasy feeling in the stomach felt when a vehicle hits a

"thank-you-maam" (i.e., an abrupt rise or dip in the pavement)



If so, please mention the when and where. Thanks in advance.



Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 13:56:59 -0500

From:  Shari Kendall  KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Discourse Analysis Conference Call for Papers



**************************************************************

*                              *

*          * CALL FOR PAPERS *          *

*                              *

*       The Georgetown Linguistics Society       *

*             presents             *

*                              *

*             GLS 1996             *

*                              *

*           DISCOURSE AS MOSAIC:          *

*         linguistic re/production         *

*               of               *

*          identities & ideologies         *

*                              *

*                              *

*     October 11-13, 1996 at Georgetown University    *

*                              *

**************************************************************



   mosaic i.a. Pertaining to that form of art in which

   pictures and patterns are produced by the joining

   together of minute pieces of glass, stone, or other

   hard substances of different colors.



The theme of GLS 1996, Discourse as Mosaic: linguistic re/production

of identities and ideologies, captures the multiple ways in which

linguistic features and strategies create and reflect coherent social

meanings. We encourage papers which illuminate how local linguistic

practices produce and reproduce identities and ideologies, and how,

in turn, identities and ideologies simultaneously constrain those

practices. The metaphor of mosaic stems from this relationship:

the interaction of small and large patterns to yield a coherent whole.

Works submitted may include, but are not limited to, such areas as

discourse in the media, the workplace, the classroom, everyday

conversation, and in medical, political, legal, religious, and other

institutional contexts. Papers should be based on natural language data.



SUBMISSIONS. Abstracts must be received by GLS no later than Friday,

March 18, 1996. Individual presentation of papers will be 20 minutes

long with 10 additional minutes for discussion. Please send three

copies of an anonymous 500-word double-spaced abstract (hard copy

preferred, e-mail accepted). On a separate sheet, provide your name,

paper title, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number, and institutional

affiliation. In addition, please submit a 100-word summary of the paper for

the conference program.



For further information, please contact:

   GLS 1996

   Georgetown University

   Department of Linguistics, Box 571051

   Washington, DC 20057-1051



   telephone: (202) 687-6166

   e-mail:  gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 19:33:23 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: P.S. re the Long Message



  1) What is "the first screen"?



Whatever part of the message fits onto the first screen. I have my mail

program set to 20-line screens. If I'm bored with the message at that

point, I hit the delete key -- which is why I didn't even notice the file

at the end of yesterday's spam.



  and 2) While my ignorance of how

  to do it would prevent my decoding and downloading the binary file and I

  wouldn't have had the interest in this one to prompt me to find out,

  nevertheless I don't know why it would have been unwise.



Unlike text files (e.g., e-mail), binary files (executable programs) can

contain viruses. I'm not especially paranoid on that subject and have

certainly downloaded lots of binary files from lots of ftp sites and

other places through the years without any problems, but I would not

download an unsolicited binary file sent to me by a stranger.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:52:42 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Happy Holidays -vs- Merry Christmas



Happy Winter Solstice, one and all!



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 15:37:21 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Merry Christmas vs Season's Greetings, etc.



Hey, whatever happened to Bah, humbug?



Dennis

---



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 16:41:31 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



Is the WOTY one that's hit it big, or one that's new and hit it big.

Because I know gaydar from, hmm, fourteen years ago.



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:11:14 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



  Is the WOTY one that's hit it big, or one that's new and hit it big.

  Because I know gaydar from, hmm, fourteen years ago.

 

Me too. AT least 14 years ago. But maybe it has been a cult term until

now? Though I thought Algeo had it in ANW several years ago (maybe I'm

misremembering). It iSn't in Bruce Rodgers' THE QUEENS' VERNACULAR (1972).



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 22:43:54 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: neuticals



 Earlier, I proposed (compliments of Norman Sanders, with several other members

 of my dept. agreeing) the verb 'newt." Asked for a quotation, I was stymied.

 Several of us reall seeing it, but no one can now find it.

 

 Can anyone help?

 

 Thanks,

 Bethany





I don't know if this helps or not but I saw a bumper sticker at last week's

Florida

Democratic Convention which said: "NUCK FEWT"



newt could mean to slash funding from a social program





neuticals are artificial testicals which are implanted into the scrotum of a

just neutered dog (new product just shown on TV as I was keyboarding this).

How's that for timing?



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Dec 1995 21:59:52 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



    A couple of comments. The one word that seems to have hit me in

the face most (besides the Web) is  abs  "abdominal muscles". It may have

been lurking around body-building salons for awhile, but it seems to have

escaped into public use only this year, providing a nice one-syllable

match for "buns", the other part of the anatomy that gets the most attention

in the exercise industry.

    David's entry of  sidebar  as "aside" is related to, but slightly

different from the most common referent I've seen for it in the past two

years, namely a boxed (often with different-shaded background) commentary

expanding on a point mentioned in an article in a journal. Usually the

 sidebar  is set to the right or left side of the page, though occasionally

it may be placed across the bottom. The place I've encountered the term

most often is PC Magazine.

    Incidentally,  applets  is mentioned, but has  apps  been recognized

in previous years' competition? This is the source form, and more widely used.

    My vote is for  abs , though I suspect most would support  Web .

        Rudy



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 1995 to 21 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 673 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Kwanzaa

 2. WOTY from David Barnhart (4)

 3. Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs - sidebar

 4. sidebar

 5. Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs (5)

 6.  No subject given 



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 01:29:29 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Kwanzaa



In message Thu, 21 Dec 95 11:14:59 EST,

 murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]prism.uchicago.edu (Vicki Rosenzweig) writes:



  As far as I know, Kwanzaa is not celebrated anywhere in Africa:

  it was invented in the United States sometime around 1970.



  Thanks to Vicki, I finally decided to check "Kwanzaa" with a Tanzanian

friend on mine, because I just assumed that this may be a Tanzanian

tradition. Reason? I have attended about three Kwanzaa-related

presentations in the past six years and every presenter

claims that the tradition was copied from/inspired by something done in

Tanzania and the name is Swahili. My firend says she knows of no such

celebration in East Africa, even though the word "Kwanzaa" is Swahili. I

still wonder whether the tradition was invented ex-nihilo, without a distant

model other than traditions which celebrate the new year. The closest model,

according to my friend, is harvesting festivities, which follow a different

protocol. Doesn't this fall in the category of syncretisms, albeit a

planned one?



Happy holidays,



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:14:03 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



Ron Butters wrote:

  On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:

 

    Is the WOTY one that's hit it big, or one that's new and hit it big.

    Because I know gaydar from, hmm, fourteen years ago.

   

  Me too. AT least 14 years ago. But maybe it has been a cult term until

  now? Though I thought Algeo had it in ANW several years ago (maybe I'm

  misremembering). It iSn't in Bruce Rodgers' THE QUEENS' VERNACULAR (1972).



I don't believe it's ever been in ANW.



The earliest concrete example we have in the Random House Dictionary

of American Slang files is 1994, and we've read a moderate amount of

gay sources. We do have several attestations of earlier use, such

as Beth's and Ron's above. However, I've also asked a number of

people who have been active in the New York gay community for years

who've said that they just learned it six months ago. I'd suggest,

therefore, that while probably dating back to the 1970s, its wide

dispersal--even within some gay communities--is very recent.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:08:30 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs - sidebar



 David's entry of  sidebar  as "aside" is related to, but slightly

 different from the most common referent I've seen for it in the past two

 years, namely a boxed (often with different-shaded background) commentary

 expanding on a point mentioned in an article in a journal. Usually the

  sidebar  is set to the right or left side of the page, though occasionally

 it may be placed across the bottom. The place I've encountered the term

 most often is PC Magazine.



This meaning of the word has been journalist (newspaper) jargon for decades.

Maybe it's now breaking out into general consciousness, like op-ed and

gaydar.



- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 09:21:38 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



 The earliest concrete example we have in the Random House Dictionary

 of American Slang files is 1994, and we've read a moderate amount of

 gay sources. We do have several attestations of earlier use, such

 as Beth's and Ron's above. However, I've also asked a number of

 people who have been active in the New York gay community for years

 who've said that they just learned it six months ago. I'd suggest,

 therefore, that while probably dating back to the 1970s, its wide

 dispersal--even within some gay communities--is very recent.



Well, I don't date back 14 years in my usage of

term, but I can definitely vouch for longer than

six months -- in fact, back to 1991. That's when

I first heard the term, and it was commonly used

among the new group of friends from whom I learned it.



I imagine I'd have heard it sooner had I not grown

up in an environment where, for example, I never once

heard the word "bisexual." =^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:25:41 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: Re: sidebar



I've always heard sidebar used in the legal context, i.e. a conversation

among all

sides in a legal trial but out of earshot of the jury and usually of the

audience.

I presume that originally there was a "bar" in a courtroom and attorneys were

considered "members of the bar." Also there is the phrase "bar none" but I

presume

that is a different context.



SETH SKLAREY

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



  David's entry of  sidebar  as "aside" is related to, but slightly

  different from the most common referent I've seen for it in the past two

  years, namely a boxed (often with different-shaded background) commentary

  expanding on a point mentioned in an article in a journal. Usually the

   sidebar  is set to the right or left side of the page, though occasionally

  it may be placed across the bottom. The place I've encountered the term

  most often is PC Magazine.

 

 This meaning of the word has been journalist (newspaper) jargon for decades.

 Maybe it's now breaking out into general consciousness, like op-ed and

 gaydar.

 

 - Allan Metcalf

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:15:06 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



A sidebar to the Algeo's note on webmaster: in my experience, the word

frequently refers (always refers) not simply to an expert on the WWW but to

the person in charge of maintaining a particular web site. There was some

discussion on one list, I recall, about the gendering of the term--for

those who prefer a less masculine word I've suggested webster, which of

course was once feminine and has all kinds of nice linguistic reverbs.



Dennis

---



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 10:15:10 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



 Is the WOTY one that's hit it big, or one that's new and hit it big.

 Because I know gaydar from, hmm, fourteen years ago.

 

 beth



Good question, Beth, and one we need to thrash around a bit, considering

the sidebars I've been getting about my own personal private list not being

really new words. Since I've been announcing words of the year on our

local radio station and occasionally in the regional press, I've always

chosen a combination of relative newness and recent prominence, in addition

to trying to pick words that would be entertaining as well as of some

significance, in terms of a discussion.



The Algeos and I seem to agree that World Wide Web fits these criteria, in

addition to John and Adele's more rigid constraint that the word not

appear, in the current sense, in the source dictionaries. I'm a little

looser on this last constraint, but I do agree.



My own Lexis/Nexis search on political correctness/politically correct

turned up over 31,500 hits in the "current news" files. That's a striking

increase in frequency over previous years--but the word, it seems to me, is

not just mellowing out and developing some senses not even recorded by

David Barnhart (come hear my talk Saturday), but that it is also declining

in prominence, which of course simply reflects the fact that information

content is inversely proportional to frequency of occurrence (a nice rule,

like my other favorite, a version of that old high school bio saw, ontology

recapitulates philology).



But I also want to raise the issue of why pick a WOTY? For me, the reason

is to educate the public. Consequently, a rhetorical consideration of

audience interests and needs always comes into play when I make up a list,

checking it twice, trying to find out who's ... oops, wrong holiday. (I

think I thought of bah, humbug in my earlier post because my winter holiday

seems to have become MLA this year--sure hope it doesn't turn into a major

world religion or ethnic celebration.) So I don't pick words that are very

obscure or not likely to cause much of a cultural stir, no matter how

interesting they may be for us professional types.



Any other thoughts on this?



Dennis

--













Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 12:19:24 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



 

  A sidebar to the Algeo's note on webmaster: in my experience, the word

  frequently refers (always refers) not simply to an expert on the WWW but to

  the person in charge of maintaining a particular web site. There was some

  discussion on one list, I recall, about the gendering of the term--for

  those who prefer a less masculine word I've suggested webster, which of

  course was once feminine and has all kinds of nice linguistic reverbs.



You're definitely right about the definition.



I do know a few female web site administrators who choose to

call themselves "webmistress."



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 11:19:27 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



In nominating "sidebar" I assumed its recent popularity stemmed from the

OJ trial.



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Thu, 21 Dec 1995, Rudy Troike wrote:



      A couple of comments. The one word that seems to have hit me in

  the face most (besides the Web) is  abs  "abdominal muscles". It may have

  been lurking around body-building salons for awhile, but it seems to have

  escaped into public use only this year, providing a nice one-syllable

  match for "buns", the other part of the anatomy that gets the most attention

  in the exercise industry.

      David's entry of  sidebar  as "aside" is related to, but slightly

  different from the most common referent I've seen for it in the past two

  years, namely a boxed (often with different-shaded background) commentary

  expanding on a point mentioned in an article in a journal. Usually the

   sidebar  is set to the right or left side of the page, though occasionally

  it may be placed across the bottom. The place I've encountered the term

  most often is PC Magazine.

      Incidentally,  applets  is mentioned, but has  apps  been recognized

  in previous years' competition? This is the source form, and more widely used.

      My vote is for  abs , though I suspect most would support  Web .

          Rudy

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:32:04 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY from David Barnhart



Re: gaydar

    Used in general public, without gloss, in Madison WI, c1981.



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:54:20 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



For waords that have escaped and carry levels of meaning,



how about "skinny" for *skim* as in

    "skinny cap(pucino)"



usu +female

usu +decaf



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 15:59:20 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



ADS Friends:



We have recently reviewed a number of sociolinguistic films at MSU. Here

is the blurb from last semester's effort. I have not edited out MSU specific

stuff, but I am sure you can read around it.







SOCIOLINGUISTIC VIDEOS AVAILABLE FROM IAH

THE LANGUAGE AND CULTURE FILM FESTIVALS GOES ON

(AND ON AND ON)



As you may still remember, last semester we viewed a number of videos (all

of which, except for American Tongues, are now available from IAH), and

here is the promised (biased) assessment.



We will, by the way, continue our viewing next semester on Tuesdays at

3:00 in Wells Hall 642. We have the rest of the LAVIS films to see as well

as some things on speech style, gesture, and kinesics from California

(which we want to preview before we buy). (P.S.: Please don't send me a

note asking for another time; there ain't none.) I reckon we'll start these

films on January 16th, but you will get another notice.



Remember. The stuff we saw last semester is now available. To use IAH

videos, go to the top floor of Linton Hall and get them out of the cabinet. If

you steal one, I will personally come and kick your butt.







The reviews:



1) American Tongues (available from the Instructional Media Center [3-

3960]). This is the grandparent. It is the best linguistics movie ever made.

(Don't let people tell you that the new general linguistics series which just

ran on PBS is better; it doesn't even come close.) It surveys regional

variety, standards, the influence of foreign languages, ethnic and gender

differences, and does an especially effective job on attitudes towards and

stereotypes of regional and other varieties. All this is nontechnical (no

linguistics background is presumed), and there are numerous examples

from real speakers.

    Instructors may want note that the word 'nigger' is used once and

prepare their students for that. Others may want to note that, in the Boston

North End section (see below), the word 'fuck' is pretty frequent, and some

may even want to prepare students for that (although I guess you would

have to put a sign outside every public toilet in the US is you got really

serious about getting folks ready for it). There are shorter versions of

American Tongues which do not contain these items, but they are, to my

knowledge, not available at MSU.

    (Interesting historical note. Walt Wolfram, one of the film's prime

academic movers, foresaw the controversial status of 'nigger' and argued

with the producers to leave it out. At nearly every large-audience academic

premier of the film, Walt has been proved right. There has been an

enormous amount of focus on this one word. In one sense, of course, he is

wrong. It obviously contributes to discussion of racist language, but in

overwhelming other aspects of the film, it may not have been so desirable.)

    Bethany Dumas (of the University of Tennessee) offers the

following (very helpful) outline of varieties (and incidents, and even 'best

lines') in the film. (I have modified her version only slightly.) It should

help

you use this film in classes, but you need to have seen the film for this

outline to be most useful. (N.B.: I use the abbreviations AA and EA for

African American and European American throughout.)

    1. Southern (AA) English.

    2.   Mary had a little lamb

        Its fleece was white as snow

        And everywhere that Mary went

        The lamb was sure to go

    Recited by six speakers: EAmale, EAPennsylvania Dutch female,

        EAmale, AAmale child, EAfemale, EAfemale

    3. Ranch talk - Texas

    4. Northern city talk

    5. AA female cheerleaders

    6. Comments about various dialects

    7. Southern US EAstudent actors (reading Shakespeare)

    8. Institutional speech (sales talk, computer jargon, etc...)

    9. Church singing

    10. Tangier Island speech ("I figure I sound just like Walter

        Cronkite.")

    11. Comments on settlement history of US; fewer regional

        differences west of the Mississippi

    12. Roger W. Shuy (Georgetown University)

    13. Style differences:

        Appalachia

            Kentucky radio call-in program ("I'm just a plain old

                hillbilly.")

            Cratis Williams

            Boot salesman ("He might could wear it in a eight

                and a half.")

        Ohio ("Midwest, straight American, bland." "We don't talk

            funny, but if you want funny, go about seventy

            miles south.")

        Texas (Most westerners in their speaking ... are more open,

            more forthright.")

    14. Foreign language influences (Louisiana Cajun French)

    15. New York City deli

    16. Vocabulary differences: RI (cabinet for milk shake), Pittsburgh

        (gum band for rubber band), Hawaii (pau for done,

        finished, over), Louisiana (jambalaya), other areas --

        antigoggling for catty [or kitty]-cornered, snickelfritz, NYC

        shlep for carry)

    17. Children's games

    18. Walt Wolfram (NC State) on how children acquire language

        patterns and vocabulary

    19. Southern AAfemale professional

    20. There is no 'Standard' in the US, but there is a 'Network'

        standard. (The generic voice of 'directory assistance.') ("The

         voice from nowhere.")

    21. EAfemale Yale student on Southern speech ("This really kind of

        'you all' stuff.") ("I was not going to have any little

southern

        babies who talked liked that.")

    22. Regional Stereotypes:

        "Southerners talk like niggers."

        "Rampant brain death west of the Hudson."

        "In Manhattan the air is skyscrapers is so thin that people

            have a nasal accent."

        Northerners are not hospitable (grating, nasal, unkind)

        Northerners mock Southern /a:s/ for /ays/ ("See, ice, ass-

            holes.")]

        Texan on Northern stereotypes of southerners (always

            depicted a dumb hicks in the movies - examples)

    23. Regional and ethnic humor (Georgians talk in questions [rising

        intonation]; no wonder they lost the Civil War)

    24. Linguistically insecure female speaker

    25. Consequences of speaking a nonstandard or 'noticed' variety

        (Brooklyn speaker with speech coach). Wolfram says such

        varieties are not what the corporate world is looking for.

    26. Considerable variation even in Boston speech

    27. Which dialect is 'better' depends on social stereotypes: urban is

        better than rural, EA is better than AA, educated s better than

        uneducated, middle class is better than lower class, etc...

    28. If one speaks a dialect, one's other (e.g., professional)

        performance must be better.

    29. EAfemales on style-shifting. ("Look at them two beautiful girls.

        If they'd keep their mouths shut, they'd be perfect.")

    30. Boston 'Brahmins'

    31. Boston North End - Italian-American speaker on the advantages

        of local, vernacular speech. ("The women, they eat it up."

         "The guys are intimidated.")

    32. The group or solidarity function of AA English. ("I don't want

        my boys sounding like white males." "She a school girl

        instead of a mama girl."

    33. Pride in regional varieties.

    34. Frederic G. Cassidy (editor of DARE [Dictionary of American

        Regional English], University of Wisconsin) on dialect

        leveling 'spoiling' communication

    35. Attitudes towards varieties







2. Many years ago Roger Shuy and I put together a series of three films

(with an accompanying handbook [for 'workshop' leaders], an anthology

of readings [with suggested assignments], and an audio tape) for USIA,

principally for use with nonnative TESOL teachers abroad. I am almost sure

that the anthology and audio tape are not available, but I have seen a fairly

recent revision of the handbook (1988), and I know the films are still used

quite a lot overseas. (The audio tape contained no material which was not

already available on the film; it simply repeated material from the film for

convenience.) If any of this material is still available, it can be got

from the

English Language Programs Division, Bureau of Educational and Cultural

Affairs, U.S. Information Agency, Washington, D.C. 20547. At any rate,

we have the films. The entire series is called 'Varieties of American

English,' and the three films are a) Regional Dialects, b) Social and

Specialized Groups, and c) Stylistic Differences. They presuppose no

linguistic sophistication and should be good for introductory classes.



    a) Regional dialects. This film illustrates regional US speech with

speakers from Boston, Northern Ohio (Roger Shuy), Southern Indiana

(Dennis Preston), Alabama (Crawford Feagin), and Upstate New York, and

New York City. It also provides details about the immigration and foreign

language backgrounds of US English and spends a good deal of time on

attitudes towards varieties.



    b) Social and Specialized Groups: This film treats variation in

ethnic, gender, status, and professional groups. Vignettes of 'typical'

performances are done by actors.



    c) Stylistic Differences: This film uses Martin Joos' notion of the

'five clocks' of English style (the frozen, formal, consultative, casual, and

intimate) and illustrates stylistic variation in vignettes done by actors.

There are actual scenes of the teaching of stylistic levels at the English

Language Program at the University of Pittsburgh at the end of this film.





3. The Ocracoke "Brogue". This is a short film which details the work Walt

Wolfram and his students have been doing among the speakers of an

interesting North Carolina off-shore island speech community. It is a very

conservative dialect but shows some signs of accommodating to northern

and southern varieties of US English. It is particularly interesting for 1) the

amount of authentic local speech it contains (often difficult to understand,

by the way), and 2) the integration of the scientific findings of this research

into the school programs on in the island community, fostering a sense of

'dialect pride' (and tolerance) among the students and realistic attitudes

among the teachers. More information could be had from Walt himself at the

North Carolina State English Department. His e-mail address is

 wolfram[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]social.chass.ncsu.edu . I think I would not show this to

neophytes, but I could be wrong. I would, at last, provide a written

transcript of the 'denser' dialect passages, particularly of the very

entertaining story about locals who take oysters with them on a gambling

trip to Las Vegas and of the stereotypical phrase ('High tide on the sound

side') which is repeated several times to illustrate the centralization of the

onsets in the diphthongs /ay/ and /aw/, the source of the islanders' nickname

-- 'Hoi Toiders' (i.e., 'high tiders')







4. Which English? is a film from the commercial outlet 'Films for the

Humanities & Sciences' and is about 20 minutes long. It is a fluffy little

English music-hall piece, but it quite effectively makes the point that

language standards are arbitrarily connected to class (or 'socio-economic')

categories rather than strictly linguistic (or 'logical') ones. There is a

short

section on US English, but most of the points are made with regional and

overseas speakers of British English. I think it is good for introductory

classes.







5. Sexism in Language, about a half-hour, also from 'Films for the

Humanities and Sciences' is another British music-hall style presentation.

The fact that British rather than US subjects are used is not particularly

troublesome, however, and there are interesting analyses of written and

spoken English for gender bias. I would use this in introductory classes.







6. Victim of Two Cultures: Richard Rodriguez. Another film from 'Films

for the Humanities and Sciences,' this interview (with Bill Moyers) runs

about 60 minutes. It is an interesting exploration of Rodriguez' rejection of

his Mexican-American heritage (and particularly the Spanish language). One

of his interesting arguments is that Mexican-American identity 'limited' his

ability to identify with members of the many cultural groups he would like

to feel an affinity with. I think this film is useful only for those who have a

particular interest in bilingualism and language and cultural contact, but

it is

sort of literarily idiosyncratic and not suited for introductory work in my

opinion. On the other hand, it might be a good provoker of conversation.

One of the members of our group who saw it said that, as a Hispanic, she

was 'insulted' by the film. It's too bad that there is not a pro-bilingualism

(multicultural) piece to show along with this.







7. Exploring Language: Thinking, Writing, Communicating - Communities

of Speech. This film is from Penn State (AV Services, (800) 826-0132) and

is a very good treatment of language standards and varieties. It features Walt

Wolfram discussing regional and ethnic varieties and the implementation of

language standards for most of the film. In an odd decision, the film-makers

stuck Deborah Tannen in between two Wolfram segments with

disconnected discourse stuff. She should have made separate film for them.

As it stands, her segment does not fit well. With this organizational proviso,

I think the film is a good one and can be used with introductory classes. (By

the way, this film has a partner in the 'Exploring Language' Series called

'The Shape of Language.' It is an introduction to basic linguistic concepts.

It is also in IAH, but I have not previewed it. It is not necessary to view it

before the one on 'Communities of Speech, even with beginning courses.)







8. LAVIS Films. This are a series of videotapes form the LAVIS (Language

Variety in the South) II Conference held at Auburn University in 1993. One

might consult Cynthia Bernstein in English at Auburn to see if this series is

still available. They are not generally suitable for beginning students, but

they contain some very good stuff. Here's what we have seen so far.

(N.B.: When you buy the entire series, a photocopied set of handouts

which were distributed at the conference comes along with the tapes; they

are necessary for some of the presentations and are housed with the

videotapes in Linton Hall.)



    a. Bill Labov on the Southern Vowel Shift. Labov shows how the

vowels in the southern US are rotating and how this rotation causes

miscommunication (even among local speakers). This is a technical talk,

and if viewers do not know the basics of the Southern Shift (and at least

acoustic [spectrographic] phonetics) before watching it, they will get little

out of it. For advanced students, however, the review of several current

methodologies in studying vowel systems is worthwhile, and, of course,

for less advanced students, the fact that southern and northern US English

are diverging (rather than merging in some media-induced 'General

American') is an interesting (and for most of them) counter-intuitive notion.



    b. Michael Montgomery. A Retrospective on the study of Southern

Speech. This is a very valuable 'scholar's opinion' on what has happened

over the last ten years or so in the study of Southern US speech.

Montgomery evaluates what has happened and indicates what needs to be

done. He identifies (and evaluates) a number of important resources for

students of Southern US speech as well. Again, however, this is not for

introductory classes nor for those who do not intend to work on Southern

US English.



    c. Crawford Feagin. The influence of Africa on Southern US

speech. This presentation focuses on three features of Southern US English

which may owe (at least part if not all) their historical backgrounds to the

influence of African languages. The topics are the use of falsetto, the

Southern 'drawl,' and r-lessness (the last of which is treated most

extensively). This is an excellent presentation, a clear handout, and requires

only moderate linguistic sophistication. I would recommend it for

intermediate level classes, especially for those with an interest in AA

English in general and/or Southern US English in particular.

    Interesting regional linguistic aside: Feagin is herself a native

EAfemale Alabaman. When she refers to African Americans in the parts of

her paper which are her own, she uses the term 'Black,' but she reads from

some historical documents which use the term 'Negro.' Interestingly,

however, she uses a traditional southern pronunciation /nIgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ (where

[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa) for this item. I saw lots of Northerners jump in their seats in the

audience when she did so, for they do not so carefully distinguish between

this polite southern pronunciation of the item 'Negro' and the racially

offensive /nIg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ (r-ful, of course, [e.g., /nIg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r/] in some southern speech

communities). (One must admit that the phonetic difference is subtle, but in

many southern speech communities, the social distinction is [or at least was]

as dramatic as /nigro/ versus /nIg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE](r)/ was in the north. Perhaps, as in

American Tongues, some instructors will want to prepare students for this

usage. It could also lead to an interesting discussion of the source for the

folk belief that all southern EAs are racists.







That's all we have so far. I anyone runs into some good language in culture

or society films out there, let us know and we'll try to schedule them



See you next semester.



Dennis





  



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Dec 1995 18:34:30 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



And what about "skinny" as in "What's the skinny on the WOTY?"



Bethany



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1995 to 22 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 111 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1.  No subject given 

 2. Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs (2)

 3. Some data on LIST-MISTRESS

 4. ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1995 to 22 Dec 1995 (2)

 5. KWANZAA origins & info



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 04:42:11 EST

From:  Boyd Davis  FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



What a WONDERFUL holiday gift, Dennis! That list is really valuable. Thank

you so much

Boyd Davis



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 11:19:08 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



Bethany,

What's this 'skinny' (=information) stuff? I used it in the 1950's. Maybe

it could be OTWOTY (Old-Timers' Word of the Year). (I like that category.)

Dennis





 And what about "skinny" as in "What's the skinny on the WOTY?"

 

 Bethany



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 11:26:07 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Some data on LIST-MISTRESS



Here is some data, pulled out of a message posted on another bulletin

board which has mostly gay and lesbian subscribers (the author is a PhD. in

the humantities, male, age about 50; names have bee reduced to intitials

for the sake of privacy):



'M--- was also interested in our www home page

(http://www.duke.edu/web/jyounger/ -- check it out!) with all its queer

links to various discussion lists, a list of university queer programs in

North America, queer web sites -- she pulled it up and began surfing,

saying, "oh, yeah, I already subscribe to QSTUDY-L; oh, I've heard of A---

G---" ("the Dyke List-Mistress"). . . . '



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:37:54 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1995 to 22 Dec 1995



Kwanza was founded in 1966 by a Dr. Ferenki (not sure about the last name

spelling) to get African Americans back in touch with thier African roots.

While using many Kiswahili words it uses a varitable marsala of traditions

from all over ATRs.



Merry New Year and Good Holidays to all! * :-{)}}



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 12:32:50 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET 

Subject: KWANZAA origins & info



There were some questions about the origins of KWANZAA

this may or may not serve to enlighten

SETH SKLAREY

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net





 The KWANZAA Information Center is here to enlighten us about the

celebration of a lesser known holiday of African-Americans the world

around.



       ****Created in 1966 by Dr. Maulana Ron Karenga,*****



 Kwanzaa focuses

not on religion but on Black spirituality and unity of a culture. A

complete and interesting overview is available at

 http://www.melanet.com/melanet/kwanzaa/#background .



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 19:00:48 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Algeo/Barnhart WOTYs



Old skinny update:



Thanks, Dennis, for reminding me of the earlier use of "skinny." It has

resurfaced somewhere in my life -- email lists, I think. I'd go with

OTWOTY.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Dec 1995 19:08:38 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1995 to 22 Dec 1995



ATRs?



Bethany



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Dec 1995 to 23 Dec 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 10 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. To bethany and all



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Dec 1995 00:08:57 -0500

From:  "Kevin A."  Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: To bethany and all



ATRs =African Traditional Religions. Sorry about the possible confusion.



Asher



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 1995 to 24 Dec 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 13 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. het up



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Dec 1995 11:41:18 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett  Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM 

Subject: het up



This was on a thread some time ago, but on the western movie "Jumping Jack

Flash" (?) starring Paul Hogan, the form "het" was used as a past

participle of heat. Maybe this was quite common not so long ago.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 1995 to 25 Dec 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Frontier Doctors (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Dec 1995 15:49:14 -0600

From:  Dan Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Frontier Doctors (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 09:27:49 -0800 (PST)

From: trlcr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]timberland.lib.wa.us

To: Stumpers list  stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU 

Subject: Frontier Doctors



This one really has us stumped! Patron is looking for the name

of an object used by horse and buggy doctors to secure the horse-

drawn buggy. It was a weight carried in the buggy until the doctor

arrived at his/her destination. This weight was then attached to

a horses bridle so the horse would not run off with the buggy.

He has heard it called a "ground anchor" and would like to know

the actual name. Besides medical history books, etc., I had fun

looking through the 1897 Sears Catalog to no avail. Patron thinks

it was used in the late 1800s. Any help would be appreciated.

Mary Ann Shaffer



********************************

Timberland Regional Library

Central Reference

313 8th Ave SE

Olympia WA 98501

trlcr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]timberland.lib.wa.us

fax: (360) 943-6347

********************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Dec 1995 to 28 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS (8)

 2. 95 words

 3. The Bell is Sounding (2)

 4. And The Winners Are...



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 14:09:56 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Here's your chance to be with us in Chicago. If you send your comments

by about 4 p.m. CST, they will be read at the meeting late this afternoon

before the big vote. You can send them to me directly or post them on

ADS-L. I'll check mail around 4 or 4:30. And of course I'll send you

the results sometime tonight.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



NOMINATIONS:



MOST USEFUL

brownfield

E.Q.

meme



MOST UNNECESSARY

montanabahn

Generation Y

Vanna White shrimp



MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED

www

corporate welfare

hello?



MOST ORIGINAL

postal (to go postal)

cybrarian

spamming



MOST OUTRAGEOUS

newt (v)

astroturf

starter marriage



MOST EUPHEMISTIC

24-7

home meal replacement

patriot



WORD OF THE YEAR

go postal

www



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:12:59 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: 95 words



So what's going on in Chicago? I've been expecting some info about new word

voting.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:25:42 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Well, Natalie, you must have been posting your message just as I posted

my query asking what was going on in Chicago! Thanks. Here are my responses:



  NOMINATIONS:         My Comments:

 

  MOST USEFUL

  brownfield          never heard it

  E.Q.             never heard it

  meme             never heard it

 

  MOST UNNECESSARY

  montanabahn          never heard it

  Generation Y         okay, I can go with this

  Vanna White shrimp      don't know what it means

 

  MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED

  www              I don't know anybody who says "www"

                (but I know people who say "World Wide Web"

                or "Web")

  corporate welfare       No. (I hear "corporate greed" more often.)

  hello?            Not new -- but certainly widespread.



  MOST ORIGINAL

  postal (to go postal)     Okay.

  cybrarian           Never heard it

  spamming           That's been around for a while, folks, at

                least two years. (Didn't I vote for it

                last year?)



  MOST OUTRAGEOUS

  newt (v)           My nomination for WOTY (I don't find it at

                all outrageous.)

  astroturf           This word is at least two decades old!

  starter marriage       Haven't heard it



  MOST EUPHEMISTIC

  24-7             ???

  home meal replacement     never heard it

  patriot            ???

 

  WORD OF THE YEAR

  go postal           Yes.

  www              See above comment



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 09:47:49 -0500

From:  Jeutonne Brewer  brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NR.INFI.NET 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



At 02:09 PM 12/29/95 GMT, you wrote:

 Here's your chance to be with us in Chicago. If you send your comments

 by about 4 p.m. CST, they will be read at the meeting late this afternoon

 before the big vote. You can send them to me directly or post them on

 ADS-L. I'll check mail around 4 or 4:30. And of course I'll send you

 the results sometime tonight.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 

 NOMINATIONS:

 

 MOST USEFUL

 brownfield           Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 E.Q.              Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 meme              Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 

 MOST UNNECESSARY

 montanabahn          Never heard it. Think it fits in the useful

                category to describe our highways without

                speed limits.

 Generation Y          Never heard it. Not very original for the

                generation between X and (presumably) Z which

                is next in line.

 Vanna White shrimp       Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 

 MOST LIKELY TO SUCCEED

 www              Like Bethany I hear/read World Wide Web, often

                shortened to Web

 corporate welfare       Like this one. It should succeed. Was "widely"

                used last year, perhaps even earlier

 hello?             Don't understand why this is in the list

 

 MOST ORIGINAL

 postal (to go postal)     Agree that this one is original

 cybrarian           Haven't heard it, but I like it

 spamming            Think this one is old news

 

 MOST OUTRAGEOUS

 newt (v)            Not outrageous. I like it.

 astroturf           This is as old as the Astrodome in Houston

 starter marriage        Never heard it

 

 MOST EUPHEMISTIC

 24-7              Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 home meal replacement     Never heard it. Don't know what it means.

 patriot            Don't know what it means. Must have a new

                meaning to be included here.

 

 WORD OF THE YEAR

 go postal           I can agree with this. It is original.

 www              Perhaps it goes with Information Superhighway

                from last year. "Go postal" is more original.



**************************************************

* jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu           *

*   Department of English           *

*   University of North Carolina at Greensboro *

*   Greensboro, NC 17412            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu             *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fagan.uncg.edu            *

* brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nr.infi.net              *

**************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:51:38 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Natalie,



www--I don't think is ever said out loud, or even thought.



(go) postal--did we find that it was, indeed, used by anyone other

than the original poster (or was it the poster's friend?)? I've been

asking around, and trying it, and no one has recognized it



spamming--agreed, at least two years in common use



corporate welfare--yes, definitely



hello?--I think that may have started earlier, on TV sitcoms last year,

with the "we're all friends and have keys to each others' apartments" shows,

but it is out in common use now



I don't know or recognize the others. What happened to serio-discordant?



happy new year!



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 15:31:05 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



At 9:47 AM 12/29/95 -0500, Jeutonne Brewer wrote:



  astroturf           This is as old as the Astrodome in Houston





 . . . and someone else mentioned that the term was "at least two decades old."



I expect this word is listed here for its newer meaning in politics, which

is something like "artificial (or artificially-engendered) grassroots

support."



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 21:47:47 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Re "astroturf":



  I expect this word is listed here for its newer meaning in politics, which

  is something like "artificial (or artificially-engendered) grassroots

  support."



Yes. John Algeo's definition is "organized public response to a political

issue appearing to be a 'grassroots' movement but instead created by

special-interest advertising."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:02:04 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: The Bell is Sounding



The bell you just heard marks the end of e-mail comments on WOTY. I'm

about to download the comments of Jeutonne, Vicki, Bethany, and Beth Lee

and will take the computer downstairs and read the comments at the meeting.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:03:38 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: The Bell is Sounding



  The bell you just heard marks the end of e-mail comments on WOTY. I'm



Or rather it marked the end of the comments that will be read at the

meeting today. You can continue to comment.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:09:44 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Thanks for clarifying the intended meaning of 'astroturf'; I've never heard

it in Algeo's sense.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Dec 1995 01:28:43 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: And The Winners Are...



Most Useful: E.Q. (Emotional Quotient)

Most Unnecessary: Vanna White shrimp (large shrimp)

Most Likely to Succeed: World-Wide Web/WWW/Web

Most Original: postal (to go postal)

Most Outrageous: starter marriage (like a "starter home")

Most Euphemistic: patriot (as in militia mentality etc.)

Word of the Year: a tie between World-Wide Web/WWW/Web and newt

 (newt was nominated from the floor for the WOTY category)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Dec 1995 22:23:40 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



Beth asks,



 I don't know or recognize the others. What happened to serio-discordant?



I was fond of that one too, although I posted it as "sero-discordant", the

form it occurred in in the N. Y. Times article I read about the category,

glossed as 'differing in HIV status', as in a sero-discordant couple.

I'm disappointed with the results, but I promise not to go postal over them.



--Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Dec 1995 to 29 Dec 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS (2)

 2. And The Winners Are... (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Dec 1995 14:36:21 GMT

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



   I don't know or recognize the others. What happened to serio-discordant?

 

  I was fond of that one too, although I posted it as "sero-discordant", the



I'm not sure what happened to serio-discordant. I had to miss the nomination

meeting Thursday because I was helping interview job candidates at one of

the MLA hotels that day.



  I'm disappointed with the results, but I promise not to go postal over them.



Me too. Among other things, I think that URL would have been much better

than WWW/Web.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Dec 1995 15:17:01 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: WORD(s) OF THE YEAR NOMINATIONS



I can't argue with "going postal" as the word/phrase of the year, but some

special award should go to the New York City paper (I forget which one, the

Times I think) that came up with the quintessential method for describing

that troublesome rock star who wants to be known by a symbol rather than a

name: "The squiggle formerly known as Prince." That was easily the best

thing I saw all year!



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Dec 1995 18:07:35 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: And The Winners Are...



I see a problem this year that I was not aware of last year. When I saw the

list of nominees, I assumed (I realize now) that we were referencing SPOKEN

words --hence my objection to words like "www." I think in the future we

might want to devise some way to recognize both prined words and spoken

words, sometimes in separate categories.



I regret that "hello?" did not get some recognition. I heard a great example

of its use this morning in (horse-)jumping lesson. Terry finished her round, and

Deb, the instructor, started giving Sara instructions. It became clear that

Sarah was hlaf asleep and not listening. Deb stopped, then said,

"Sara, it's your round. HELLO???"



I then explained that that was a nominee in the WOTY contest, etc. So we

stopped to define words, then resumed jumping.



Great Saturday morning activity! The sun was shining and the temp. was about

40. (That's part of the reason I was not in Chicago.)



Looking forward to ADS w/LSA in 1997!



Thanks for all the good work, especially from you, Natalie.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Dec 1995 16:33:35 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: And The Winners Are...



On Sat, 30 Dec 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  I see a problem this year that I was not aware of last year. When I saw the

  list of nominees, I assumed (I realize now) that we were referencing SPOKEN

  words --hence my objection to words like "www." I think in the future we

  might want to devise some way to recognize both prined words and spoken

  words, sometimes in separate categories.



I agree with this completely. We all 'know' that spoken and written

English are two different languages linked by habit. I'm all for

splitting it into TWO different prizes: Spoken WOTY and Written WOTY.



And by the way, it's a real kick to belong to this list and hear its

year-end deliberations solemnly intoned on national news!



  I regret that "hello?" did not get some recognition. I heard a great example

  of its use this morning in (horse-)jumping lesson. Terry finished her round, and

  Deb, the instructor, started giving Sara instructions. It became clear that

  Sarah was hlaf asleep and not listening. Deb stopped, then said,

  "Sara, it's your round. HELLO???"

 

  I then explained that that was a nominee in the WOTY contest, etc. So we

  stopped to define words, then resumed jumping.



Again, if we had a Spoken vs Written WOTY, this might have been better

considered. I'm thinking of Drew Barrymore in "Boys on the Side", for

instance. "hel-lO-o!"



Of course, this only points to an obvious lack in our own linguistic

terminology, of how to talk about this 'fashion of speaking' that

distinguishes it from other fashions of speaking the same word. What we

know about other languages of the world is that some of them have tones,

or pitch, or pitch-accent systems, where we supposedly only have stress

in various degrees. Really?! Then how does the WOTY nominee differ from

normal statements or questions using that word?



What we seem to be lacking is a 'tunology', right between phonology and

morphology (SUPRA-segmentals?), that can adequately encompass everything

from tone to stress with in a system in which 'tunes' are primary, and

manifested in different ways within different languages.



Of course, this leads to an otherwise unthinkable starting point of SONG

as primary to either speech or music. Some linguists are beginning to

notice that it makes sense to say that song minus music is speech (altho

some speech is closer to song than are European languages) and that song

minus speech is music -- more sense than to say that speech and music

developed independently of each other and put together they form music.

(This argument, of course, depends on notions of monocausal determinism

and disallows any co-bootstrapping explanations outside of Newtonian

scientific argument.)



At any rate, I guess this is my own working out of a problem I

encountered in my own fieldwork 25 years ago. I had already had training

at UCLA with tone languages of Africa (Luganda, Igbo), and with that

experience I tackled Cheyenne -- saw no tones but saw stress differences

(as in ancient plural formations). Another linguist comes and finds

something else called pitch-stress, which is closer to tone than I found.



So at that point, for me, the spot between phonology and morphology

became 'thicker'. Furthermore, in English the way these phenomena seem to

function concerns the emotional component from the limbic system rather

than the cortex of the brain. These are ancient emotional tunes we play

through our words. Again, I notice this so exquisitely because I have my

students in Intro to Language capture their own 5-minute slice of spoken

reality and then make successive tries in capturing in further forms of

writing (including phonetic) exactly everything contained therein.



I like this LIST because there seems to be a higher percentage of people

who have an instrumental rather than dogmatically theorical point of view

here. Would it HELP teachers of intro linguistics to have another level

of tunology to help put English in a wider category for comparison? Would

it help for explaining the new 'tune' of 'hellOo!'? Are there other

'fashions of speaking' that would be elucidated by this new level?



I'm enjoying being a (sometimes intrusive) fly on the wall for such a

nationally recognized group (i.e., SOMEbody has some media pull!), and I

wish you all a wonderful new year as it becomes manifested from your own

already-always-manifesting! Perhaps you'll think again, sometime, about

this consciously subterranean tunology (and what wasn't until linguistics

pointed it out to us?).



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Dec 1995 to 30 Dec 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 43 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. And The Winners Are...



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 31 Dec 1995 12:20:48 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: And The Winners Are...



I loved this story because it shows what I see as the real function of

WOTY nominations--getting people thinking and talking about words.



Happy New Year!



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Sat, 30 Dec 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  I see a problem this year that I was not aware of last year. When I saw the

  list of nominees, I assumed (I realize now) that we were referencing SPOKEN

  words --hence my objection to words like "www." I think in the future we

  might want to devise some way to recognize both prined words and spoken

  words, sometimes in separate categories.

 

  I regret that "hello?" did not get some recognition. I heard a great example

  of its use this morning in (horse-)jumping lesson. Terry finished her round, and

  Deb, the instructor, started giving Sara instructions. It became clear that

  Sarah was hlaf asleep and not listening. Deb stopped, then said,

  "Sara, it's your round. HELLO???"

 

  I then explained that that was a nominee in the WOTY contest, etc. So we

  stopped to define words, then resumed jumping.

 

  Great Saturday morning activity! The sun was shining and the temp. was about

  40. (That's part of the reason I was not in Chicago.)

 

  Looking forward to ADS w/LSA in 1997!

 

  Thanks for all the good work, especially from you, Natalie.

 

  Bethany

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Dec 1995 to 31 Dec 1995

************************************************



.