There are 3 messages totalling 74 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. painting trees

 2. information superhighway

 3. Stereotyping of Accent on Film/TV



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jan 1994 23:16:44 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser  lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: painting trees



   Reading through entries for DARE, volume 3, I noticed a sense missing

which is common to me and started wondering......

   What or who causes the leaves of the trees to turn color in the fall?

(No scientific explanations about chlorophyll, angle of the sun, etc.,

please.)



Luanne von S.......



Luanne von Schneidemesser, 608-263-2748

DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 1 Feb 1994 15:15:16 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: information superhighway



Today's Wall Street Journal has an article on the info superhighway,

pp. A1; A5. ADS' selection of this phrase

as word of the year is cited in the last graph.



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 1 Feb 1994 06:00:27 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Stereotyping of Accent on Film/TV



On Mon, 31 Jan 1994, Charles F Juengling-2 wrote:



  I was very interested to read of stereotyping of accent in American

  film/TV. My children have over the past several years watched quite a few

  cartoons. I, too, have noticed that the bad guys quite often have certain

  dialects. I can't say, however, that I remember the Brits being picked on.

  I've noticed that the bad guys most often have either a Mexican or New

  York (probably to be identified with the Mafia) accent.

  Fritz Juengling

 

On TV westerns (and maybe movies) done since the sixties, bad guys have

upland southern accents, especially if the bad guys are young-punk types.

Did the reaction to the civil rights movement prompt a stregthening of

the stereotype of southern males as ignorant, insensitive neanderthals?

(My colleagues who teach comp mght say that such creatures exist, but

that the South has no monopoly on them).

"Gunsmoke" did this, and the most recent example I can recall is

"Paradise," starring Lee Horsely. (By the way, the female lead was a sort

of proto-feminist figure who talked like -- a Brit, and an r-less one at

that!)



Someone mentioned bad guys using non-upper class British accents, now I

can't find that posting. But I

wonder if there's some connection to familiarity with punkish Brit rock

groups with various regional/working class varieties.

The Stones, who(m) I like but who at their worst are pretty gross, are

just one example.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jan 1994 to 1 Feb 1994

***********************************************







Topics of the day:



 1. appalachian

 2. Sluff & Nimrod (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 16:08:48 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: appalachian



This list has been pretty slow lately. Thought I'd pass on a couple of

items from the Atl. Constitution's weird news briefs section:



REALLY HUMAN: The protection against discrimination on the basis of

sexual orientation in Cincinnati's new human rights ordinance was

repealed in November 1993. However, the ordinance has the nation's only

provision forbidding discrimination against "Appalachian Americans."



[in Australia] members of Parliament traditionally address one another

much more aggressively than [in US Congress] Among the names recently

overheard on the floor of the Parliament: perfumed gigolo,

brain-damaged, harlot, sleazeba, scumbag, mental patient, and dog's vomit.



This is probably mild compared to what's been going on in Russia lately.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 21:49:02 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Sluff & Nimrod



Jan Brunvand at U of Utah (Salt Lake City) tells me that his students are

currently using 'nimrod' as a synonym for nerd, wuss, dork, etc. They

didn't know the word has biblical connections or might have other meanings.

I'm not particularly collecting data on this item, but others might be (e.g.,

Connie Eble) and would want to know of its use elsewhere.



Jan also tells me that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of

that hooky stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing

school policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread?        (I don't keep

up with the modern world and don't know these modren terms.)



Brunvand is the urban legend specialist. Choking Doberman etc.  DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 23:48:19 -0500

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



"Nimrod" is alive and well in Cleveland. And not just among

teens. It has also been on some TV show within the last month,

but haven't the foggiest which one.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Feb 1994 to 5 Feb 1994

**********************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 250 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Sluff & Nimrod (5)

 2. your mail (2)

 3. AAVE variation and ADS in Toronto

 4. Regional variation in BE



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 21:59:11 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



On Sat, 5 Feb 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Jan Brunvand at U of Utah (Salt Lake City) tells me that his students are

  currently using 'nimrod' as a synonym for nerd, wuss, dork, etc. They

  didn't know the word has biblical connections or might have other meanings.

  I'm not particularly collecting data on this item, but others might be (e.g.,

  Connie Eble) and would want to know of its use elsewhere.

 

My son was using 'nimrod' in this sense four years ago, in high school. I

don't know how widespread the term is, since we're also in Utah (Provo

area), but it isn't particulary new.

 

  Jan also tells me that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of

  that hooky stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing

  school policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread?        (I don't keep

  up with the modern world and don't know these modren terms.)

 

'Sluff' is the usual term here. I 'played hooky' thirty years ago, but my

wife says she used 'sluff.' She graduated from high school in 1966.

 

  Brunvand is the urban legend specialist. Choking Doberman etc.  DMLance



Do you happen to know if Brunvand has an Internet address?



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wpmail.us.dynix.com

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 23:50:26 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling-2  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



On Sat, 5 Feb 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Jan Brunvand at U of Utah (Salt Lake City) tells me that his students are

  currently using 'nimrod' as a synonym for nerd, wuss, dork, etc. They

  didn't know the word has biblical connections or might have other meanings.

  I'm not particularly collecting data on this item, but others might be (e.g.,

  Connie Eble) and would want to know of its use elsewhere.



I remember using the word 'nimrod' back in the mid/late '70's for exactly that

meaning. We also had another word-- polnerd. It must have been the first

half of 'Polack' + nerd (that was at the time of all the "Polack" jokes.)

I think the idea was that if you were a 'polnerd', you were twice as

stupid as being just a 'nerd'. Does anyone else know this word?

BTW, where does the word 'nerd' come from. Everyone knows it from Happy

Days; did it originate there?



  

  Jan also tells me that in the public schools kids "sluff" school -- none of

  that hooky stuff. And the school bulletins use this term in discussing

  school policy. Known elsewhere? Widespread?        (I don't keep

  up with the modern world and don't know these modren terms.)



When I was in school (in Oregon in the late '70's), the OTHER

kids 'skipped' school. We did have the word 'sluff-off', but that meant

something more like 'to be lazy, not do one's homework, or generally not

try very hard' or 'to not do something.'

"Did you do your homework?"

"No, I sluffed it off."





 

  Brunvand is the urban legend specialist. Choking Doberman etc.  DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 00:39:04 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



To judge from the local Tucson paper, kids here still "ditch" school,

the usual California term. In South Texas ya hace muchos anos, kids

"skipped" school or "played hookey", though the latter had a funny ring

to it, rather foreign-sounding.

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 07:58:36 -600

From:  Lew Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



In the late '70s in southeast Idaho we used "sluff" to mean "ditched

school," and also in "sluff off," meaning to slack off, or to not do what

one should have been doing. I can't remember hearing the term since I

left high school.

        Lew Sanborne



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 4 Feb 1994 22:44:18 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: your mail



Greetings ADS-L:



Can anyone help me with some addresses or forwarding:



Ron Butters at Duke U.

Edgar Schneider in Germany, Freie Universitat Berlin.



I would like to send e-mail to both of these gentlemen and would like to know

if they are on the ADS list. (I do have snailmail addresses).



Also: how do I subscribe to LINGUIST? Is it worth subscribing to?



Thanks,



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 07:47:06 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: AAVE variation and ADS in Toronto



On Fri, 31 Dec 1993, John Baugh wrote:



 

  Most of my African American informants from across the U.S. make

  the greatest ethnolinguistic distinction between "urban" and "rural"

  black speech. Guy Bailey did some intersting work between College

  Station and Houston that looked at this "rural" vs. "urban"

  contrast. Nearly all of my informants lived in cities, but they too

  had strong stereotypes regarding "country talk" which was often

  equated with black folk speech in the South.

 

 

I'm teaching Richard Wright's NATIVE SON. One character in that novel,

an elderly preacher clearly cast as an Uncle Tom type, speaks in a "dialect"

with /ai/ flattening = "ah", /r/ loss in your as "yo." Also /r/ loss in

Lord as "Lawd." None of theother African American American characters

have these features, although there is copula deletion and an occasional

"done" aspect. I thought my Af. Am. students would identify the preacher

as "country" but when I asked there was a long silence and then one

(these kids are from the Chicago area) volunteered "Southern."

I wonder if others are aware of stereotyped features in the African.

American speech community.



By the way, later this semester we're doing "Huck" and "Their Eyes were

watching God"; both use literary dialect in ways I think present

interesting problems. We'll see what happens.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 5 Feb 1994 07:32:37 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



On Thu, 30 Dec 1993, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Dear Joan, Sali, Tim, et al. ADS-Lers,

      The reference to regional variation in BE/AAVE that I made was the

  hardly momentous and necessarily largely anecdotal paper I published ages

  ago (20 years!), in which the call for research on this topic has gone

  largely unheeded. Unfortunately, valuable possibilities have disappeared

  in the meantime. The reference is:

      Troike, Rudolph C. "On Social, Regional, and Age Variation in Black

  English," Florida FL Reporter (1973, Spring/Fall), 7-8.

      One pervasive feature which seems to have a much wider occurrence

  in the East is the devoicing of final -/d/, replaced with either /t/ or glotta

  stop. At the time, I had not encountered this in Texas. Another items was

  evidence that older speakers in Texas had the /IN/:/EN/ distinction, but that

  it had been lost among younger speakers. This evidence considerably confounds

  the view that the lack of the distinction is an original diagnostic of BE.

  With more research, much more could be (could have been) found.

      On Tim's interesting anecdote, I found differences between speakers in

  Houston and Dallas, but his story calls to mind a student I had once who came

  up after class and asked, in a strong "Brooklynese" pronunciation, if I though

  she sounded like a Southerner. I was rather astonished by the question, and

  assured her that she did not, so far as I could tell on casual hearing. Then

  she explained, almost in tears, that she had lived for two years in Atlanta, G

  where her husband had been stationed, and that after about a year, when she

  would call home to her parents in Brooklyn, they would accuse her of "sounding

  like a Southerner", evidently implying that this was somewhat treasonous to

  family solidarity. As a result, she was feeling somewhat estranged from her

  parents, which was very upsetting to her. The phonetic differences, whatever

  they were, were clearly very subtle, but were enough to be detectable to

  members of the linguistic community (her parents).

      This is a common experience, of course, for all of its being little

  documented. Brits are often able to detect minute differences in regional

  varieties which are unidentifiable to American ears, at least on first hearing

  Someone once gave me a tape of a young speaker from NYC who was "obviously"

  Black, but when played for a colleague who was a native speaker, he expressed

  doubt, though he could not put his finger on anything specific. He was in fact

  right -- the speaker on tape was a Nuyorican -- New York Puerto Rican. But

  again, the differences were so subtle that they would probably not have been

  expressible even in narrow phonetic transcription.

      Now, the urgent need is still to document regional differences before

  they change or (pace Dennis) disappear.

      Feliz Navidad, y'all,

                  --Rudy

 

I just had another experince last week like Rudy descirbed back in December.

A student in my grad class went to Colo. and met a Texas lady who had a

pronounced coastal southern pronunciation (Shirley does a good

imitation). But shirley's lady was told she talked like a Yankee when

she went home. This reminded me of Raven McDAvid's stories about goin

ghome to So. Car. and being told he talked like a Yankee. This always

surpirsed me becasue Raven's dialect was so different from my own that

wen he referred to the LANCS community of "Murphysboro" (IL) I would have

to get him to repeat it several times before I knew what he was talking

about. This is interesting because, as Rudy says, there are linguistic

cues that folks recognize, but they are very subtle. I hear stories like

this a lot and can never imagine what the cues might be, even though I

think I have a pretty good ear. This all sugests that even if some sort

of national levelling of extreme regional diferences ever takes place

(which I doubt anyway) there will remain significant distinctions which

many commentators will miss.



January's gone--goodbye and good riddance!



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 18:33:58 -0400

From:  tthonus  tthonus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: your mail



You can reach Ronald Butters (indirectly) at amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu.

T.Thonus

P.S. Yes---ADS can be fun---and informative!



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 21:12:53 EST

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



Is this new "sluff" the same as the old SLOUGH?



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIO.EDU



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Feb 1994 to 6 Feb 1994

**********************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 164 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. She's All (5)

 2. Sluff & Nimrod (2)

 3. your mail



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 22:28:52 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: She's All



I've enjoyed the informal surveys concerning current usage, so I decided

to do one of my own.



A couple of years ago, my daughter (now a junior in high school) and her

friends started using the phrase "s/he's all" to mean "s/he says" or "s/he

said," when reporting a dialog. For example, an incident might go

something like this:



He's all, "Would you like to go?"

And she's all, "I'll have to check my schedule."

And he's all, "Let me know, okay?"



Interestingly enough, my two older children have never seemed to acquire

this usage.



Have any of you heard this?



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wpmail.us.dynix.com

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 6 Feb 1994 21:43:26 -0800

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



Nimrod was being used in the nerd sense in the 70's in Las Vegas.



In Washington State and Southern Nevada, "sluff" is and has been used.

In W.S. I went to a prep school, so we spelled it "slough."

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 05:30:27 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: your mail



  Can anyone help me with some addresses or forwarding:

 

  Ron Butters at Duke U.

  Edgar Schneider in Germany, Freie Universitat Berlin.



They're both on the list of ADS-L subscribers. That list is available

to anybody, btw, by sending this command to the listserv: 'review ads-l'.



Here are the two addresses:



amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU        Ronald Butters

ewschnei[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALF4.NGATE.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Edgar Schneider



(As you can see, Edgar is no longer in Berlin.)



  Also: how do I subscribe to LINGUIST? Is it worth subscribing to?



Send the sub command ('sub linguist Your Name') to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamvm1.tamu.

edu. It's an excellent list if you like moderated lists. I have to

admit that I delete the mail from it unread much of the time because I

dislike moderated lists. I don't like that the normal flow of discussion

is slowed down since the mail isn't automatically distributed as it arrives,

and I dislike clumped mail -- mail from different people stuck together in

a single file. I'd much rather have a steady trickle of mail from a list

than sudden spurts of clumped mail that's sometimes several days old.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 07:45:48 EST

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: She's All



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



This all sounds like quotative like: "And she's like, 'that's far out you

nimrod' in which the quote marks something thought rather than said--or wished

to have said.  David Bergdahl

     Ohio University/Athens

     BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 09:51:06 -0500

From:  Scott Kiesling  SKIESLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: She's All



This indeed seems to be a quatative similar to "she's like." It's been

parodied on Saturday Night Live in an ongoing skit about high school

girls working in a Gap store. In the parady, they tend to use it in

narratives.



In my current research on undergraduate life/language, I've not

encountered the quotative among either sex, suggesting that it is

limited to the 18-under group, that it is age-graded, or that it is

regional (I'm doing research in No. Virginia).



Scott Kiesling

Georgetown

skiesling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 11:19:44 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff & Nimrod



failing DARE vol. required, "sluff" (likely a sp. pron. of "slough" as in

the serpent its skin) reminds me of ca 1950 Montana: "slope" "slope off" with

the same meaning, but used by railroad workers rather than truant beavises,

according to older friends from that region. Does "slope" show up on

anyone's scanner?



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 13:19:53 -0600

From:  Christine E Capra-1  capr0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: She's All



On Sun, 6 Feb 1994, Keith Russell wrote:



  I've enjoyed the informal surveys concerning current usage, so I decided

  to do one of my own.

 

  A couple of years ago, my daughter (now a junior in high school) and her

  friends started using the phrase "s/he's all" to mean "s/he says" or "s/he

  said," when reporting a dialog. For example, an incident might go

  something like this:

 

  He's all, "Would you like to go?"

  And she's all, "I'll have to check my schedule."

  And he's all, "Let me know, okay?"

 

  Interestingly enough, my two older children have never seemed to acquire

  this usage.

 

  Have any of you heard this?



Yup. My ten year old son uses "s/he's all." I don't know where he got it

from. He lives in Minneapolis aprt of the time and Taos, New Mexico the

rest of the time.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 13:43:29 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: She's All



Students on the University of Missouri campus go "I'm all like Why did you ask

that? and then he's Well, I just thought you might wanna know. Then I'm all

you know a little embarrassed because he was really being kind."

                         DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Feb 1994 to 7 Feb 1994

**********************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 289 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. She's All (3)

 2. Sluff/Slough (2)

 3. I don't believe in words.

 4. quotative "be like" (3)

 5. Regional variation in BE (2)

 6. Bounced Mail

 7. "She's/He's like all, you know..."



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 22:43:06 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: She's All



Scott--

    If you mean you don't hear quotative "like" in No. Va. (have you

tried the malls?), it must mean it's regional. We certainly hear it all the

time here on the U of Arizona campus, though since we have such a mixed

group of California refugees, snowbirds, and natives, I couldn't say who

are the originators. Mostly you hear it from females: And he goes "Hey",

and I'm like "Wow" and ...

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 23:40:33 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Sluff/Slough



I am forwarding the following from my good Anglo-Saxonist colleague here

at the U of Arizona, Carl Berkhout. Re his final note, I well remember

driving through Slough in England once, and encountering a sign at the

entrance to the city reading: "Go Slow in Slough".





From:  UACCIT::CTB     "Carl Berkhout" 7-FEB-1994 23:06

To:   UACCIT::RTROIKE

CC:   CTB

Subj:  RE: Sluff/Slough



  Is this new "sluff" the same as the old SLOUGH?

 

  David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIO.EDU



'Sluff' is indeed a mutation of 'slough', more Yank than Brit. It goes

back to whenever, but its modern currency (since the 1940s or so) has been

influenced or reinforced by American bridge players, who 'sluff' cards

that they don't want or need. British bridge players usually 'discard' or

'shed' them. The bridge players' 'sluff' spelling is in turn influenced

by the word 'ruff'. The term 'a ruff and a sluff' is very common among

bridge players and is something that good declarer play often tries to

force from opponents.



Also, terms 'slough off' and 'shuffle off', which could be used either

transitively or intransitively (for 'to die, to give up'), have been

virtually synonymous since the 16th century. (One could either slough off

or shuffle off a mortal coil--or simply slough off and be done with it.)

Possibly the -uff- in 'shuffle' has contributed to the 'sluff' spelling of

'slough' somehow.



All of which reminds me of the town of Slough, west of London. Among most

of the locals the name rhymes with 'cow', but other Brits are apt to

pronounce it in various ways. I once heard a British Rail conductor on

the 9.15 from Paddington to Oxford announce that the train would call at

'Sluff'. Enuff



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 7 Feb 1994 23:12:28 -0500

From:  Tim Van Noord  TNOORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM 

Subject: I don't believe in words.



    I'm a part-time poet with a full-time interest in words and have been

contemplating the following assertion:



        "I don't believe in words."



    Is this statement necessarily false - for, if the speaker considered

it true, he could never put his disbelief into words...yet, if he considered

it true, would it not be true?



Tim Van Noord

tnoord[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 06:50:10 -0500

From:  "E.W. Schneider"  EWSCHNEI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALF4.NGATE.UNI-REGENSBURG.D400.DE 

Subject: quotative "be like"



It`s interesting to see the discussion on quotative "be like" and its

status in last year`s ADS word-of-the-year selections. Those of you

who are more specifically interested in this might want to contact

Suzanne Romaine. At the 1990 International Conference on English

Historical Linguistics in Helsinki she gave a paper which traced this

phenomenon, entitled "Grammaticalization in progress" (or the like). It

is not in the Proceedings, though (ed. by Matti Rissannen et al.), and I

have no idea whether she has published it elsewhere or why she

replaced it by something on Tok Pisin.

Edgar Schneider

Edgar W. Schneider

ewschnei[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]alf4.ngate.uni-regensburg.de

University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 13:13:43 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



    The sociolinguistic (or is it psycholinguistic?) principle at work

in all these anecdotes is simply that hearers notice what is different

about a speakers accent, not what is the same. Some Midwestern members of

my wife's family (she's from Illinois) maintain, in all seriousness, that

after 12 years in Britain she sounds EXACTLY like me. They are quite wrong,

of course, but that's how it seems to them!

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill FBA

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 13:20:11 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Sluff/Slough



    The British Rail announcer must have been joking - EVERYONE in

Britain knows it's pronounced /slau/ - witness the famous John Betjeman

poem



    Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough,

    It's not much good for people now----



(Second line isn't right, but it does end in "now".)

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill FBA

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 08:57:46 -0500

From:  Scott Kiesling  SKIESLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: She's All



I gues I wasn't too clear. I meant I don't hear /he's all." I hear

"like" all the time.



Scott



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:34:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



The label Peter Trusgill is after (in other dialect recognition) is

'folk-socio-psycholinguistics.'

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:32:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: quotative "be like"



Romaine's work on 'be like' appears in American Speech.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 09:24:55 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: quotative "be like"



Suzanne Romaine's paper was published in AMERICAN SPEECH 66, #3, 1991.

I plan to write you soon, Edgar.

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 12:57:00 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: She's All



In student reports in class, "quotative like" seems to be as common in the

speech of males as the speech of females. And I've heard "I'm all..." and

"I'm..." in the speech of both sexes, including the speech of a male

student who transferred to Missouri from Arizona State (re Rudy Troike's

reference to males and females at U of AZ).



A colleague at the U of Utah tells me that one of his students said both her

husband and her son use 'nimrod' for geek or nerd, a 35-year span. She

speculated that Natty Bumpo was a nimrod.

                       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 16:11:43 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



Reminder: If you include a previous posting in something you send to

the list, be sure to edit out the headers.



  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  0857 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  --------------------- Message in error (53 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Mon, 07 Feb 1994 20:21:52 -0500 (EST)

  From: "Aaron E. Drews"  DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

  Subject: Re: She's All

 

    Subj: She's All

 

    I've enjoyed the informal surveys concerning current usage, so I decided

    to do one of my own.

   

    A couple of years ago, my daughter (now a junior in high school) and her

    friends started using the phrase "s/he's all" to mean "s/he says" or "s/he

    said," when reporting a dialog. For example, an incident might go

    something like this:

   

    He's all, "Would you like to go?"

    And she's all, "I'll have to check my schedule."

    And he's all, "Let me know, okay?"

   

    Interestingly enough, my two older children have never seemed to acquire

    this usage.

   

    Have any of you heard this?

   

      As a matter of fact, another list I'm a part of, one

  consisting of several of my high school's alums, there is a member who

  quotes messages (as I did with this one) and begins the citation by

  writing "So-and-so's all

   X

   Y"

 

      I don't think I use, but I heard it a lot in my high school,

  and my stepsister (a sophomore in high school) constantly uses it.

  -= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =--= * =-

  Aaron E. Drews              drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu 

  Georgetown University          drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet 

  School of Languages          "The better part of a man is

      and Linguistics        soon ploughed into the soil for

  Class of 1996             compost." Henry David Thoreau

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 18:58:02 EST

From:  Erick Byrd  EBYRD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: "She's/He's like all, you know..."



Not only have I encountered widespread usage of quotative "like," I have

frequently heard it used in conjunction with "...all, you know..."

For example: Oh yeah, she's like all, you know, like into it and all!"

The semantic flexibility and contextual variants of usage seem to be endless.

But like, it's all cool and everything, right? Right!

It also seems that, in much the same way genetic traits have a way of leap-

frogging their way into the future, phrases and expressions from the "Beat-

nik" era seem to be making some inroads into present-day jargon.

I guess it's cool...I can dig it....crazy!

Regards,

Erick Byrd  Univ. of Georgia, Dept of Lang Ed., Athens, GA



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1994 to 8 Feb 1994

**********************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 155 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Regional variation in BE

 2. Sluff/Slough (4)

 3. Dialect shift??

 4. Newsletter deadline



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 21:45:56 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



Peter,

    Re the principle of people noticing differences, it really first

became nationally prominent when John F.Kennedy was running for office:

everyone noticed when he said "Cuber" (except perhaps other like-lected

Bostonians and NYers), but not when he said "Cuba". When Johnson became

President, there was a joke going around in Texas (I don't know how widely

it circulated) about a lady in East Texas saying it was nice to have a man

in the White House who didn't have an accent! More folk-evidence.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 21:58:51 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Sluff/Slough



Peter,

    Isn't there a neutralization in some places between /aw/ and /ow/,

merging somewhere in the vicinity of /ew/? To these American ears, though

just impressionistically and not by careful listening, the Queen uses /ew/

where I would use /ow/, e.g. in  know . If  Slough  and  now  really rhyme,

then  slow  as quoted in the road sign must be a local homonym. No?

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 8 Feb 1994 22:53:51 -0800

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sluff/Slough



On Tue, 8 Feb 1994, Peter Trudgill wrote:



      The British Rail announcer must have been joking - EVERYONE in

  Britain knows it's pronounced /slau/ - witness the famous John Betjeman

  poem

 

      Come, friendly bombs and fall on Slough,

      It's not much good for people now----

 

  (Second line isn't right, but it does end in "now".)

  Peter Trudgill



Peter, haven't seen you since that glorious week at METHODS whichever in

Victoria, B.C. (though my students are very familiar with your books).

But your remind me:



  Though slew is sluff

  and slough is /slau/

  We're tough enough

  (or is it /nau/)

  To cough it 'ough.'

  Enuff for nough?



Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:20:02 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Sluff/Slough



    No, there's no merger of /ow/ and /au/ anywhere. What has happened

is what John Wells calls diphthong shift, so that /ow/ is /aw/ in the

London region while /aw/ is /dw/ or /ew/ or /a:/. "Slow in Slough" is a

joke, but not a pun!

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 9 Feb 1994 12:24:31 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Sluff/Slough



    Yes, wasn't it glorious. Interestingly, a widespread Traditional

Dialect pronunciation of enough in eastern England is "enow", similarly

trough "trow".

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 9 Feb 1994 11:01:11 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Dialect shift??



Peter Trudgill's comments on trans-Atlantic dialect shift definitely ring

true. I have a cousin who grew up just outside of NYC who has been living in

London for the past 15 years or so. When she answers the phone, she sounds

British to me, but after she's been speaking a while, the only non-American

features I notice in her speech are lexical (e.g., QUITE instead of REALLY as

an empathetic marker of agreement). Even when she sounds the most British to

me, I can't imagine that she would sound at all British to a native Londoner.



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.bitnet



--Thank you very much to all who responded to my recent query about dialect

differences and the media. Even though I've seen other people, on this list

and on others, get quick responses to questions of that sort. But it was a

pleasant surprise, and extremely gratifying, to have assistance tracking down

things I should have been able to find for myself but didn't have time for.

So, thank you all. AF



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 9 Feb 1994 15:46:28 EST

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Newsletter deadline



If all goes as expected, the "January" Newsletter of the American Dialect

Society will go to the printer Friday morning, February 4. Until then there

is room for last-minute announcements of coming meetings, publications, etc.

But get it to me by Thursday evening!

   It will be printed next week and in the first-class mail probably around

the 18th. It will announce MARCH 21 as deadline for proposals for our annual

meeting Dec. 27-30 at Le Meridien San Diego in Coronado, Calif.

   You will get this if

you're an American Dialect Society member. If not, send me your s-mail

address and I'll send you a copy; or send me $30 for full membership this

year, including our journals AMERICAN SPEECH & P.A.D.S.

   Thanks to all who have already contributed news! Allan Metcalf, English

Dept., MacMurray College, Jacksonville, Illinois 62650.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Feb 1994 to 9 Feb 1994

**********************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 138 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. List Mail Oddities (2)

 2. A rara avis (5)

 3. blue laws, monkeys

 4. An English Grammar Text



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 08:38:22 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: List Mail Oddities



In case some of you have noticed long delays and out-of-order mail,

I thought I should let you know that it's because of problems on the

UGA mainframe. (For those of you interested in the technical details,

my non-techy description is this: Some of the SMTPs at UGA are screwed

up right now. For a techy description, see LINKFAIL list.) I hope

things will return to normal before too much longer.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 14:26:41 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: List Mail Oddities



So it was dawgs messin' things up and not Mizzou tigers?! How 'bout

them apples?

         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 16:28:35 +0500

From:  Robert Howren  howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU 

Subject: A rara avis



    A neighbor of mine, a reader of mystery novels, recently noted two

instances of an odd (to us, anyway) term, one of them in a British novel,

the other in a Canadian (set on Prince Edward Island). The term:

*sparrow-fart*, meaning *daybreak* -- as in "We were up at

sparrow-fart." I've been unable to turn up the word anywhere. It must be

"real"; independent invention's unlikely.

    Has anyone on the board sighted this one?

    --Bob Howren

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Robert Howren          Dept. of Linguistics

    howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu    University of North Carolina

                    Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 13:48:49 PST

From:  Larry Frazier  0084P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NAVPGS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: A rara avis



No sparrow-fart sightings; apologize for a re-direction of the string...

My favorite is mango, used to refer to bell peppers. I understand the

usage is common in Tennessee area. Also: any out there raised in Hawaii,

or interested in origins of Hawaii usages from its New England

missionary influences?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 16:49:13 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: blue laws, monkeys



Can anyone tell me (a) why blue laws are blue, and (b) what you call a

group of monkeys (besides a barrel)?

Cindy Bernstein



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 18:50:12 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



I would like some help on a textbook problem. This summer I get to teach

(we only get a shot about once every five years) and I need the money so

I said OK. The course is English grammar, which I havent taught in five

years or so. The corse is for teacher ed. majors, the book should be as

practical

and non-theoretical -- non-technical, please!!!!!! these kids scare easy --

as possible. I prefer one with lots of good exercises. The kids are

expected to know the basic structure of English, parts of speech, etc.

In short, something like enlightened traditional grammar. The book I

used to use -- THE SCOPE OF GRAMMAR -- is, I think, surely out of print.

Any suggestions?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 19:40:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: A rara avis



Mango (pepper) is common (but old-fashioned) in KY, and southern IL and IN.

Dennis Preston

PS: I think it cannot be used in that area, however, to refer to any prepared

dishes; e.g., *stuffed mango, * mango salad.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 21:51:03 -0500

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Re: A rara avis



Re "sparrow(-)fart," I think you'll find it in the OED.

I seem to recall researching the word when I ran across

it in Patrick McGinley's novel "Foxprints."

  (Sending this from home, and my OED is STILL in the

  movers' packing box somewhere, so can't confirm.)



--

      Mike Agnes

       Internet: by91[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu

        Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm

          Fax: 216 579 1255



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 10 Feb 1994 20:19:01 -0800

From:  Arnold Zwicky  zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: A rara avis



MANGO 'green pepper' is common, but scarcely old-fashioned, in

central ohio. if i call a local pizza place (in columbus -

disregard the source of this message in palo alto, california)

and ask for green peppers on it, it comes in a box with MANGO

on it. there is actually one pizza place that's willing to

supply [tropical] mangos as a pizza topping; as in the supermarket,

this ingredient is identified as FRUIT MANGO. the marked

alternative. [i happen to like the tropical fruit, a lot. so

i've had to learn to ask for it in a phrase, not a single word.]



in my experience, the pepper-MANGO region extends at least as

far west as central illinois, though i believe it's been

contracting geographically in the younger generations. maybe

some place just south of columbus will be the vanishing point.



arnold



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Feb 1994 to 10 Feb 1994

***********************************************







There are 16 messages totalling 323 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. An English Grammar Text (6)

 2. blue laws, monkeys (3)

 3. List Mail Oddities

 4. A rara avis

 5. SPARROW-COUGH, ETC.

 6. Monkeys

 7. terms of venery, primate order

 8. Monkeys & blue laws

 9. Mango



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 00:13:36 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



Tim,

    Here at the University of Arizona, we give students a pure diet

of 1963-era Transformational-Generative grammar, building that on a

required course in the History of English. We do try to show them how

tree diagrams relate to Reed-Kellogg diagrams, and try to disabuse them

of simplistic elementary-school notional definitions of sentence,

subject, and parts of speech, etc. (including debunking the notions that

gender is a matter of sex and that "possessives" are really that

--genitive remains the better term). Last year we used a text by Kaplan

which is good but requires a good bit of supplementation, so this year

we have gone back to Veit, Discovering English Grammar, which has much

better coverage of the grammar and lots of exercises. It has its

careless moments, as most texts do. We supplement it with material on

English phonology and lots of transcription practice, leading into

spelling rules and the Great Vowel Shift, and with sociolinguistic stuff

using Peter Trudgill's Sociolinguistics. It is a pretty heavy load for

one semester, and really almost too much for summer, though we do manage

to cover most of it even then.

    I think early TG grammar still gives the best insights into

things like passives, relativization, question formation, and

nominalizations, and makes coherent sense out of it all in a way that no

other model does, particularly for practical teaching purposes, since it

builds on native-speaker intuition. While I am currently trying to keep

up with Chomsky's Minimalist model (which has replaced GB), I don't

think it is any more usable for classroom teachers than quantum

physics is for introductory high school science. I retain a certain

fondness for Reed-Kellogg diagrams, though they are pretty stultifying

and non-dynamic, unlike transformational-generative grammar.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 05:34:05 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



  In short, something like enlightened traditional grammar. The book I



I sometimes teach a course designed for an audience very similar to the

one you've described and have had a hard time finding a good book for it.

The last one I really liked has been out of print for years now:

LaPalombara (sp?? -- I'm confident that's misspelled). It included some

traditional and then moved into other approaches with clear explanations

and lots of good exercises. Of the four or five different books I've

tried since then, I've finally settled on Klammer & Schultz as the most

usable. Runner-up was Kolln. I liked some things better about Kolln

than about Klammer & Schultz and may return to Kolln at some point.

Two that I ruled out as "never again" for different reasons are Stageberg

(way too skimpy for my purposes in that course) and Kaplan (way above the

students' heads in places -- I spent most of the semester I used it making

handouts to explain things, and we abandoned the book totally toward the

end of the semester since all it was doing was confusing them).



Sorry about the incomplete references above. If I were in my office, I

could give titles. All the titles were introductory sounding -- things

like _Introduction to English Grammar_ or _Analyzing English Grammar_.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 05:37:28 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: blue laws, monkeys



  Can anyone tell me (a) why blue laws are blue, and (b) what you call a

  group of monkeys (besides a barrel)?



The "blue" in "blue laws" has something to do with blue paper. The laws

were first written on blue paper? I'm not sure about monkey groups but

can probably find out from a primatologist active on Words-L.



Are you going to tell us what you're doing that involves blue laws and

groups of monkeys??

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 05:38:57 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: List Mail Oddities



  So it was dawgs messin' things up and not Mizzou tigers?! How 'bout

  them apples?



Both, I think. Also Net Goblins.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 05:21:24 -0700

From:  "J. W. Ney"  AOJWN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUACAD.BITNET 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



I'm looking for a new text for 314 for the summer. I do not see even

a reference to the title in your transmission. YOu say that TROIKE

is the author?



Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 08:31:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



A descriptively oriented English grammar (with exercises) which might satisfy

Tim Frazer's request for a nonlinguistic audience is Max Morenberg's 'Doing

Grammar' (Oxford 1991). Don't be put off by the trees; they are simply diagram

devices, not your old generative grammar buddies.

My personal favorite of such small books (for that sort of audience) is,

however, Noel Burton-Roberts 'Analysing (sic) Sentences' (Longman, 1986). It

is theoretically much more sophisticated (without wearing it on its sleeve)

and gives teachers a much better feel for language structure.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 08:57:44 -0500

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Re: blue laws, monkeys



A troop of monkeys.

 -- OED sbs 1.



--

      Mike Agnes

       Internet: by91[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu

        Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm

          Fax: 216 579 1255



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 11:14:45 -0400

From:  "Terry Pratt, UPEI"  TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA 

Subject: Re: A rara avis



Check DICTIONARY OF PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND ENGLISH for *crow piss*

in phrase *up at crow piss* -- up at crack of dawn. Its editor

and present author has subsequently heard of *sparrow-fart* but

would like to know what Canadian mystery novel it's in, A BODY

SURROUNDED BY WATER or someh

thing like that?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 10:18:50 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



In Message Thu, 10 Feb 1994 18:50:12 -0600, mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU writes:



 I would like some help on a textbook problem. This summer I get to teach

 (we only get a shot about once every five years) and I need the money so

 I said OK. The course is English grammar, which I havent taught in five

 years or so. The corse is for teacher ed. majors, the book should be as

 practical

 and non-theoretical -- non-technical, please!!!!!! these kids scare easy --

 as possible. I prefer one with lots of good exercises. The kids are

 expected to know the basic structure of English, parts of speech, etc.

 In short, something like enlightened traditional grammar. The book I

 used to use -- THE SCOPE OF GRAMMAR -- is, I think, surely out of print.

 Any suggestions?

 

 Tim Frazer



Tim--



I sympathize with your plight. There is no satisfactory book, at least

I've found none. When I teach our grammar course I use a combination of

materials. Last time I used Finegan and Besnier's intro linguistics

text together with a xerox packet of essays, exercises. I teach what

I think they need, not what they want. And what I think they need is

really a whole language approach to grammar. SO while we spend the

mandatory week on phonetics and phonology, and another couple on syntax,

I devote most of the course to language attitudes, usage controversies,

variation and change, language and gender, literary style, slang, all the

fun stuff, and I show them how they can make language an interesting

subect in and of itself for the students they will be teaching.



Other folks, of course, just use Martha Kolln or Mark Lester's books.

But I just don't like them, and can barely stay awake using them.



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 10:13:16 EST

From:  Bruce Southard  ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



I teach English grammar courses fairly regularly for those in teacher

education programs and haven't yet found a really good book. I am

currently using Klammer and Schulz' _Analyzing English Grammar_, which

has fairly good explanations and some exercises. You might also want to

look at Martha Kolln's _Understanding English Grammar_, which is just

out in a 4th edition and has an accompanying workbook of exercises. The

grammatical treatment is fairly traditional, even to the extent of

relying almost exlusively on Reed-Kellogg diagramming. I think the book

is relatively non-threatening, though. I once used the 3rd edition and

found it to be much too simplistic, but a cursory thumbing through the

4th edition leads me to believe that extensive revisions were made.



Bruce Southard



Bruce Southard, English Department

East Carolina University

Greenville, NC 27858   (919)757-6041



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 10:30:01 EST

From:  "Richard A. Spears"  72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: SPARROW-COUGH, ETC.



Sparrow-fart and sparrow-cough have been in Partridge DSUE for decades marked

"ca. 1910, popularised by WWI." Indeed, it looks to be British.



The OED has a quote for sparrow-fart in 1974.



It seems to be alive and well, or at least alive and coughing.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 13:21:01 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Monkeys



According to my primatologist friend, monkeys hang out in troops,

chimps and gorillas in groups, and orangutans and gibbons tend to

be solitary.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 14:34:34 PST

From:  Arnold Zwicky  zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: terms of venery, primate order



let me see if i have this right, natalie: a bunch of monkeys

is a troop, a bunch of chimps or gorillas is a group, and

a bunch of orangutans or gibbons is an accident.



arnold



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 16:37:08 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Monkeys & blue laws



Natalie Maynor had asked about the source of my query. It actually came

from a Russian student taking my husband's Political Science course.

That might explain the "blue laws" context; as for the monkeys, . . .

Cindy Bernstein



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 17:58:23 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: blue laws, monkeys



guess: blue laws deal with blue matters, i.e., things smutty or off-color

(note persistent chromo-imagery), as in "blue movies" claimed to be so called

(back in the 8 mm porn days) because printed on blue-tinted film stock, but

I would guess more truly so called from the blue in such turn of the

century expressions as :his language was blue. Earlier 19th century had

given us the blue devils = bad humor, depression (whence I do believe our

feeling blue, got the blues, etc come). Somewhere between the feel-bad of

the latter and the feel-all-too-much of the former the blues we sing must

have come to be named. End of snowy surmises.



RK



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 11 Feb 1994 19:48:35 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Mango



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 11-Feb-1994 07:39pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Mango





If you look in 18th-century dictionaries e.g. Webster you'll find that mango = a

cantaloup/muskmellon stuffed with kraut and pickled. Since the cantaloup is a

substitution for a mango-melon (similarly pickled), I think the pickled pepper

as a substitute for the melon came easily.



Mangoes were used in chutneys and other similarly pickled items could be called

a mango; the cantaloup was stuffed before pickling; ditto the bell peppper. The

name migrates with the use.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU









Received: 11-Feb-1994 07:48pm



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Feb 1994 to 11 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 152 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Words

 2. blue laws, monkeys

 3. English Grammar (2)

 4. terms of venery, primate order



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 12 Feb 1994 01:12:56 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Words



A week or so ago, someone asked if we believe in words.

Sure, I believe in words. My literary colleagues believe in words. They

claim that we think in words. That we remember in words. That we build

social bridges with words. That we build highway bridg (no no no; gotta

scratch that one).

Where are those words that we have access to. We learn them. Where do we

learn them? They're "out there" avaialble to all of us who speak the language.

Some of us are much better than others in reaching "out there" and selecting

just the right words to do what really works well in personal interaction,

in poems, in fiction.

Out there where? Wel, I suppose in the ether.

Yeah, that's where words would be if we reach "out there" and pull them into

our subconscious so that we can do everything we do with words.

Yeah, that's where they are. In the ether.

Alongside phlogiston.

Yeah, that's it! That's it!

That explains the fire in the bellies of the great orators.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 12 Feb 1994 00:21:25 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: blue laws, monkeys



From the wild blue yonder (Arizona, where the narcissus are already blooming):

Status: R



A more probable association for "blue laws" would be "blue stockings" and "blue

noses". Has anyone bothered to look in Mencken?

    Rudy



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 12 Feb 1994 01:20:49 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: English Grammar



Tim Frazer asked what weuns all use in our courses in English grammar. I'm

reporting what we use at Mizzou, not necessarily making a recommendation.

We've been using _Englsih_Grammar:_Principles_and_Facts_, by Jeffrey P.

Kaplan (Prentice Hall, 1989) for 3 or 4 years and have been fairly well

pleased with it -- for our purposes. One has to explain away some little

things like /ey/ but not /ow/ in his phonetic transcription, and make other

adjustments. But if the aim of the course is to give a brief introduction

to notions of prescription/description, a brief swipe at phonetics and

phonological rules, and a fair introduction to syntactic argumentation using

some X-bar notation and principles, it's a usable book. You can even cover

the basic grammatical terminology with it, but not give a basic grounding in

traditional grammar. We're likely to change books in the fall, not because

we've found something better but because we're tired of teaching the book and

want to freshen up the course. But the University of Missouri takes in only

the top 30% of the applicants, whereas Western Illinois has a lower cut-off

point for acceptance. Makes a difference. I wanted to give a more positive

report on this particular book than I saw earlier. Our course is required of

English Ed and Speech Path majors and is taken by lots of English lit majors

who have some interest in language. We'vehad 90-110 per semester,in 2 or

3 sections.                     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 12 Feb 1994 12:21:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: terms of venery, primate order



  let me see if i have this right, natalie: a bunch of monkeys

  is a troop, a bunch of chimps or gorillas is a group, and

  a bunch of orangutans or gibbons is an accident.



That's how it sounded to me.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 12 Feb 1994 17:27:24 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: English Grammar



Tim,

    Like Don, I did not mean to pan Kaplan. It is really quite good,

but not enough explicit development of tree diagrams as in Veit, leaving

a lot of supplementation necessary. Veit, despite a few minor errors

and having gone too far ahead in presenting the deep structure of the

passive [as subjectless, and having the object move up because of the

need for a subject, a GB perspective], does present trees more fully and

methodically. I also prefer to emphasize phonemes rather than

phonological feature rules, since phonemes can relate directly to

spelling patterns, and are less abstract and more practical for future

teachers, and Kaplan focuses more on rules.

    One book I used with mixed success was Bruce Liles A Basic

Grammar of Modern English. It is good in being a "non-transformational

transformational grammar", i.e., it incorporates most of the insights

without the formal machinery or diagrams, but as teachers in the U.S.

have found for over 100 years, a lot of students need the visual aid of

diagrams to "see" grammar, so it took an enormous amount of work to

supplement the book, and students relied on other texts in the library.

Nevertheless, it is a good introductory survey.

    The new edition of Kolln is much better, and incorporates

structuralist and transformational insights, marrying them to R-K

diagrams, though too exclusively for my taste. Also, it perpetuates the

old structuralist picture that there are ONLY 10 basic "sentence

patterns" -- really verb subclasses + complements. I use a handout that

identifies 14 subclasses of intransitive verbs and 37 classes of

transitive verbs, which are only the most obvious ones. I find it easier

to supplement a text using tree diagrams with R-K diagrams, since a few

students already know the latter, but almost no one the former.

    There is a danger of watering down subject matter too much

instead of challenging students. Some of the problems in our eroding

educational system begin at the college level. I like to quote a

reputed Japanese proverb to students: "To teach the finger, you should

know the arm". English ed majors are traditionally required to take

loads of lit courses that are largely irrelevant to their teaching

needs, and given a minimum of language preparation, even though this

will or should be the backbone of the curriculum. Maybe if we lobbied

more we could get greater parity in faculty membership and more jobs for

Ph.D.s in English linguistics, instead of being often the lone wolf.

Dumbing down the college curriculum to the content of the high school

or middle school curriculum will not carry us very far in the 21st

century. I realize the pressures are there not to teach any more than a

teacher needs to barely squeeze through the junior high text, but I

think those should be resisted if we are ever to turn the downward

spiral around.

    Returning to teaching grammar to prospective teachers after a

20-year hiatus, I was very depressed to find that all of the hard work

that a generation of English linguists in the '60s had done to improve

the level of sophistication regarding language in the public school

curriculum had completely disappeared into the sand, and the wave of

students the system coughs up in my classes each year know no more, or

even less, than similar students knew in the '60s. Most students know

nothing about the history of the language (unless they have just

finished the required course the semester before), think English is

descended from Latin or German, have never heard of a phoneme or

morpheme, think the vowel of  beet  is long and that of  bid  is short,

believe that  ain't  is wrong and wonder what a split infinitive is so

that they can avoid it, believe a sentence is a group of words

expressing a complete thought, have no idea about how to recognize a

noun, etc., etc. ad infinitum. Even stalwart supporting institutions

like NCTE have largely abandoned language. Somehow, like the cycle

of poverty, the cycle of ignorance must be broken. It is truly

worrisome that in an age when knowledge is growing by leaps and bounds,

the very foundations for transmitting that knowledge are still in the

19th century and sliding backwards. It is fun to talk about "sluff/

slough" and "mango", but there is a truly serious problem here which

needs to be seriously discussed and confronted, and some solutions

sought. Twenty years from now, will our students be just as ignorant,

or even moreso? I think we have a serious responsibility here.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Feb 1994 to 12 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 229 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Too in initial position (6)

 2. Words

 3. Initial TOO

 4. NWAVE meeting dates



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 12:39:00 METDST

From:  "Jon Grepstad, LR"  JGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FTRHU.KUF.DEP.NO 

Subject: Too in initial position



As a foreigner interested in American and British varieties of

English, I have been following the discussion in this list with great

interest for a couple of months.



As periodically an avid observer of American and British usage I

have a couple of times come across the use of "too" (with the meaning

of "also") in initial position in sentences in *written* English.



1 How common is this structure in written English?

2 Does this structure occur both in American and British English?

3 Does it primarily belong to the written language? Or is it mainly

found in spoken English (American, British or other)?

4 If this structure also occurs in spoken English (American,

British or other), is it a regional variety?

5 Do you have any other comments on this usage?



The following is a quote from Irving Wallace's novel "The Prize",

where I first came across this structure, nearly 20 years ago:



[...] Literature, on the other hand was another matter. Almost

everyone could could read, and if you did not read, you could

appreciate the offering of a book through secondary media like the

stage and films and wireless and television. *Too,* [my asterisks]

you could identify with authors, poets, historians, for even if you

did not write books, you wrote diaries and letters and scraps of

messages and telegrams, and if you could not write, you told fictions

to your wife or tall tales to the children at bedtime. And if you

were Count Bertil Jacobsson, why, you wrote your precious Notes.



(Irvin Wallace, The Prize, New English Library edition 1975, p. 217)



I apologize if my questions would be somewhat outside the scope of

this list, or if the answers are too obvious to native speakers.







Jon Grepstad

Information Officer, The National Council for Teacher Education,

P.O.Box 8150 Dep, 0033 Oslo, Norway

E-mail: jgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ftrhu.kuf.dep.no



Disclaimer: My ignorance is mine alone.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 07:28:52 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Words



On Lance's noble peroration:



years ago at Cal Tech I invited the poet Edward Dorn to read --- at that time

from his then developing epic "Gunslinger." At the end of a difficult and

wonderful hour, among the questions was one asked slyly, almost smarmily, by

one of the techies: "Mr Dorn, what do you believe in?" (It sounded as if

the questioner implied, oh poets, they believe in gods and ghosts...). Dorn

thought quietly for one of the loveliest ten seconds in the history of

public art, then answered softly "Words." And said no more.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 06:58:35 -0700

From:  Dan Brink  Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



My intuition is that 'too' is quite common in (near) initial position

in spoken American English, although (almost) always accompanied by

'then' or 'and then'.



=========================================

Daniel Brink, Professor of English

ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY

BOX 870302

TEMPE AZ 85287-0302

602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-3451f 602/965-2679hcf

Internet: Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 15:12:21 METDST

From:  "Jon Grepstad, LR"  JGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FTRHU.KUF.DEP.NO 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



Dan Brink:



Thanks a lot for your note. This is getting interesting, at least to

me as a foreign, non-native observer. A have had a couple of other

replies already, both from the US.





One claims:

"Too," as a clause beginner seems to occur in written

texts. To my ear, it always seems self-conscious and vaguely ugly, a

pretentious brightness or cuteness. I have never heard it in human

speech. Neutrally, you might bank it as a marker of middle-brow

written dialect. [...]



The other says:

[...] But briefly, sentence-initial "too" is virtually non-existent

in American English speech. it is very high-style literary. [...] it

has the ring of the 19th century to it [...] I notice it much more

often in written British English, so perhaps it is more current and

ecceptable in that national variety.



Your note adds other nuances to the picture:

 My intuition is that 'too' is quite common in (near) initial

position

 in spoken American English, although (almost) always accompanied by

 'then' or 'and then'.



Best regards,



Jon Grepstad



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 05:55:22 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



I find Wallace's use of "too" in initial position to be rather odd.

I don't recall encountering it anywhere else, at least not in American

English.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 11:21:06 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Initial TOO



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 13-Feb-1994 11:12am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Initial "Too"





The only place I've encountered initial "Too,. . ." in either print or speech

was in reports by stock analysts for Shearson Lehmann Hutton, but those analysts

must have been fired when Smith Barney took SLH over, since the new materials

don't display it. I have no hint as to what the background of such people is,

except they probably have MBA's and specialize in the companies of specific

industries. I assume it was a letter shorter than "Also,. . . " and so

preferred.



These analysts do try to be creative in language use (much the same as

sportscasters, I assume: to put a new twist on regularly recurring reports),

e.g. the new verb 'to ramp' [often with 'up'] which might be defined as a sharp

rise from one level of activity to another, achieving a plateau rather quickly

at the new level.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU









Received: 13-Feb-1994 11:21am



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 10:39:06 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



I have vague recollections of English teachers "correcting" me for using

initial 'too' as we use initial 'also' and 'and', followed by a comma as in

Grepstad's example. I checked several style handbooks, thinking that there

was a stylistic "rule" inveighing against the usage, but didn't find one.

This usage, to my ear and eye, is common in spoken style (I suspect in any

variety of English) but is considered too informal for most written styles.

These "rules" in style books exist because native speakers of the language

actually do use the forms in questions, of course.

                         DMLance, U of Missouri



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 11:35:52 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



Too, it's a nice day for swimming in Southern Arizona. No, despite the

preceding, I don't think I have ever used it, and consider it limited to

written style, marking a certain preciosity. It definitely conveys a

different feeling than the more pedestrian "also", and thus is clearly a

marked usage. "And too,..." seems more colloquial, in past personal

narrative, but rather old-fashioned: "And too, we were poor in those

days and couldn't afford a horse." Perhaps because 19th-century

schooling exposed students earlier to more high literature than is now

the case in our dumbed-down curriculum. "Then, too,..." is sometimes

mildly adversative: "Then, too, we seemed to have enough money to go..."

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 11:55:55 PST

From:  John Baugh  John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET 

Subject: NWAVE meeting dates



REPLY TO 02/09/94 12:41 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society":

Newsletter deadline



Allan:



 I heard from John Rickford, and the dates for NWAVE will be

between Oct. 20 through Oct 23 (Thursday to Sunday). The conference

will be held at Stanford. No other announcements have been made, so

this year ADS has the word on scheduling before any other groups.



John is taking the lead on this, and he can be reached directly at

" rickford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu " All best, John Baugh



To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1994 to 13 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 105 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Too in initial position (3)

 2. An English Grammar Text



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 13 Feb 1994 22:07:26 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



On Sun, 13 Feb 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  I have vague recollections of English teachers "correcting" me for using

  initial 'too' as we use initial 'also' and 'and', followed by a comma as in

  Grepstad's example. I checked several style handbooks, thinking that there

  was a stylistic "rule" inveighing against the usage, but didn't find one.

  This usage, to my ear and eye, is common in spoken style (I suspect in any

  variety of English) but is considered too informal for most written styles.

  These "rules" in style books exist because native speakers of the language

  actually do use the forms in questions, of course.

                           DMLance, U of Missouri



I also remember being taught in English class that initial 'too' was

incorrect. Unlike Professor Lance, however, I do not feel that this usage

is very common in spoken American English; I do agree that its use in

written language is quite informal.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 14 Feb 1994 10:10:00 GMT

From:  ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject: Re: An English Grammar Text



Come on guys, there's surely only one college grammar text you should

be using and that's Sid Greenbaum's _ A College Grammar of English _

(Longman, New York, 1989) which has a huge battery of exercises by

Chuck Meyer. There's a clear reason for choosing this book over the

rest: it is a key to Greenbaum and Quirk's _A Student's Grammar of

the English Language _. The description is identical - SGEL is

formidable for many students without help - CGE gives them a text,

an account, it opens the formal reference grammar up for them, so that

by the end of the course, students come to know what's in SGEL and where

to find it. SGEL can be quoted authoritatively and respectably for

any purpose the students might come to ha ve in later life - SGEL is a

concise version of Quirk et al.'s _A Comprehensive Grammar of the

English Language_, *the* current definitive grammar of the language.

Why are so many of you prepared to settle for less than the best - some

of the suggestions made here are pretty third-rate. (A further attraction

to CGE is that there's a British version of it: Greenbaum's _An

Introduction to English Grammar_ (Longman, London, 1991). I taught CGE

at the university of Michigan two years ago with a senior major class,

and it worked very well - amittedly I had some pretty bright and

demanding kinds in the class (also some pretty obnoxious ones , too!).

So, Tim, if I were you, I'd get on to Longman rigt away and ask for

an inspection copy.



Dennis Preston draws attention to Burton-Roberts's _Analysing

Sentences_ - it, too, is an excellent book (prehaps because it ultimately

comes out of the Quirk stable) but it doesn't give the bredth of

description that the Greenbaum grammrs do. BR is excellent for convincing

students about the interplay between structure and function, and for lots

of other reasons, but it's more 'linguistic syntax' than 'English grammar'.

I reviewed it at length in _Lore and Language_, vol. 9, no. 2, June 1990

(but appeared only in 1993], pp. 92-94.



Best wishes,

JOHN KIRK

The Queen's University of Belfast

ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUB.AC.UK

Fax (0)232-314615



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 14 Feb 1994 12:34:00 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



    It doesn't occur in any form of British English that I know of. I

associate it with the English of South Carolina native Keith Walters! Maybe

he can tell us more!

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 14 Feb 1994 12:55:08 -0400

From:  "Terry Pratt, UPEI"  TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



Just reading a book by broadway director, Stuart Vaughan,

called DIRECTING PLAYS, published by Longman, New York and London.

His frequent use of initial TOO ("Too, in the construction of a season,

the matter of rhythm and variety must be dealt with" p.18) -- this in

a man who writes well, has written other nonfiction, and whose working

life involves the right word in the right place, suggests that initial

TOO is healthier than other list postings have suggested.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Feb 1994 to 14 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 101 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Too in initial position (4)

 2. Pennsylvania Dutch (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 09:37:40 -0500

From:  "J. Chambers"  chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



In Canada, we can use "as well" in initial position, as in



    He told Mary to be careful. As well, he asked all of us to

    help her.



The phrase has the expected meaning "also, in addition," just as in

sentence-internal or sentence-final position, and just as does

sentence-initial "too" and "also".



Al Gleason told me that sentence-initial "as well" is a

Canadianism--he never saw it anywhere else. And I've promulgated it as

that for the last 20 years.       --Jack Chambers



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 11:21:36 -0700

From:  Dan Brink  Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



I agree that initial Too is not typical spoken English in the

American English I'm familiar with. But, as I stated earlier,

 Then too  and  And then too  *do* seem normal, and indeed commonplace,

but only in a very specific situation: a group is discussing/arguing

about a topic, and someone puts forth an argument in support of

position 'A', and then I think of another argument in support of

position 'A', and I say: Then too, . . . I'm not sure I have

heard, or would use introductory 'too' in any other circumstance,

but this one seems very common.



=========================================

Daniel Brink, Professor of English

ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY

BOX 870302

TEMPE AZ 85287-0302

602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-3451f 602/965-2679hcf

Internet: Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 16:22:50 EST

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Too in initial position



Too, you can look in Webster's Dictionary of English Usage for its usual

informed citation & comment. Is it significant that to find out about Too

(2) you dial (page) 911? - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 16:22:57 EST

From:  Allan Metcalf  aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Pennsylvania Dutch



A graduate student in Speech-

Language Pathology writes to beseech

Tape recordings of Penn-

Sylvania Dutch women or men,

And I wonder if there's any in reach.

   "Could you put me in touch wit

h someone who would be willing to supply the tape recording?" she writes.

"Could you suggest a bibliography?" I think of Richard Beam at Millersville

U, but anyone else? - Thanks - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 16:33:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Pennsylvania Dutch



Those seeking information about Pennsylvania Dutch recordings should write to

Wolfgang Moelleken, German Department, SUNY Albany, Albany, NY 12222 (as the

excellent appendix to Preston (ed.) American Dialect Research, Benjamins, 1993

prepared by Michael Linn instructs).

Linn prepared a list of thirty-six resources for archives and other resources

in the study of English and other languages in the US. His helpful index tells

us, for example, that items 4, 21, and 33 deal with German and 21 (bingo!) is

the Pennsylvania Dutch item listed above.

Advertisingly,

Dennis Preston

(P.S.: Remember, sales of this volue benefit the American Dialect Society.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 15 Feb 1994 22:26:20 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



I grew up on the opposite side of the country from Canada, and a co-editor

I work with keeps editing out initial "as well" in my writing. But then I

claim to use initial "too" too. These don't have the feel of regionalisms

to me, but "armload" doesn't seem like a regionalisms either. DARE, however,

has clear evidence of regional tendencies in the use of "armload" and

"armful". (Jack Chambers speculated that initial "as well" might be a

Canadianism.)           DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Feb 1994 to 15 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 61 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Too in initial position

 2. pun (2)

 3. [u]/[ju]



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 16 Feb 1994 09:36:00 -700

From:  Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



On Tue, 15 Feb 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  I grew up on the opposite side of the country from Canada, and a co-editor

  I work with keeps editing out initial "as well" in my writing. But then I

  claim to use initial "too" too. These don't have the feel of regionalisms

  to me, but "armload" doesn't seem like a regionalisms either. DARE, however,

  has clear evidence of regional tendencies in the use of "armload" and

  "armful". (Jack Chambers speculated that initial "as well" might be a

  Canadianism.)           DMLance



Now you've got me curious! What is the regional distribution of

"armload," since it sounds fine to me? I don't think I use it, nor do I

use initial "as well," although it also sounds familiar to me--possibly

the result of my 20 years in Canada before moving to the U.S. 30 years ago....



Keith Russell



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:58:55 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: pun



Some of you may know that in rural Georgia, where I live, the standard

greeting "Hello, how are you?" is rendered something like



[he haju]



This morning I saw, in large white letters on the tinted back window of a

souped-up pickup truck, the words



High, you?





Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 16 Feb 1994 14:03:38 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: pun



Oops, that greeting should have been [heI haju] -Ellen



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 16 Feb 1994 18:12:30 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: [u]/[ju]



Do any of you have any specific information on the distribution of

[u] and [ju] in words like "news"?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1994 to 16 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 440 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Too in initial position

 2. [u]/[ju] (10)

 3. Net Resources?

 4. non-sexist language

 5. GURT 1994 Program



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 00:56:40 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



Like Don Lance, I often use "as well" in my writing, usually to avoid a second

"and" for stylistic variation. Sometimes I edit it out on re-reading, usually

for rhythmic reasons, but it certainly does not seem regional (us Valley Boys

has got to stick together!)

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 01:06:11 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Natalie,

    Everyone will first tell you to check PEAS first, or you might look

for a quick-shot at the McDavid supplement to Nelson Francis' grammar (the

summary charts actually prepared by E. Bagby Atwood, though uncredited).

I'm a /yuw/ speaker (I don't like them furrin IPA symbols), but have been

amused at newscasters who get things mixed up and report the /nyuwn nuwz/.

I thought that was a hypercorrection, but have found some of my east-coast

students who have this (to me) reversal as a norm.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 04:58:17 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



      Everyone will first tell you to check PEAS first, or you might look

  for a quick-shot at the McDavid supplement to Nelson Francis' grammar (the

  summary charts actually prepared by E. Bagby Atwood, though uncredited).



Thanks for the suggestions. Somebody else sent me private mail mentioning

an article by Ann Pitts in -American Speech-. I'm going to look for it

when I get to my office today.



  I'm a /yuw/ speaker (I don't like them furrin IPA symbols), but have been

  amused at newscasters who get things mixed up and report the /nyuwn nuwz/.



I also am a /ju/ speaker (I don't know what to do with OE or French if I

let the /y/ move over to /j/). What has gotten me interested in this

subject was that two different Canadians recently have said that they

thought that all US speakers pronounced words like "news" as [nuz]. It's

funny that these two people mentioned this at about the same time, one

in direct e-mail and the other on WORDS-L. The comment on WORDS-L started

a discussion of the topic in which many USAers said yes, that they did

say [nuz] and were confident it was the common US pronunciation. That

surprised me. Although I've certainly heard it, I hear [njuz] far more

often -- I think. We also got into some interesting discussions of which

words seem to use [u] in all dialects, which vary, and why.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 06:31:27 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Net Resources?



I'm going to be reading a paper at SECOL in April on net resources for

linguists. It suddenly occurred to me that I should take advantage of

this net resource to ask you for suggestions. (I've posted the same

query to LINGUIST.) In addition to the obvious resources like e-mail

and discussion lists, how do you use the net in your work? Are there

particular ftp archives or gopher sites that you've found useful? I'm

trying to force myself to load the paper up with specific resources (an

armload of resources) in order to help suppress my tendency to ramble

on and on about the general joys of net-surfing. Thanks for any help

you can offer.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:30:20 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



You might get Jack Chambers to tell you about the current status of the

alternates in Canada; he talked a little about this (c(y)oupon) at

Methods in Victoria, from his Golden Horseshoe study. But that won't

help with Southern distributions.



******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 09:15:47 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein  bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Ann Pitts' 1986 article is "Flip-Flop Prestige in American 'tune, duke,

news'" (American Speech 61, 2: 130-38). It's a good analysis.

Cindy Bernstein



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:04:43 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



  You might get Jack Chambers to tell you about the current status of the

  alternates in Canada; he talked a little about this (c(y)oupon) at

  Methods in Victoria, from his Golden Horseshoe study. But that won't

  help with Southern distributions.



This appears to be Ask Jack Day. I sent him a note earlier this morning

asking about something else he said in Victoria. (As I told him in that

note, I was brain-dead that whole week, possibly because of jet lag from

my recent Asia   Mississippi   Victoria travels.)



I just read the Ann Pitts article in AS (61.2) and found it quite

interesting. Thanks for the reference, Cindy.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 10:39:54 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



On Wed, 16 Feb 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  Do any of you have any specific information on the distribution of

  [u] and [ju] in words like "news"?

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 

Kurath/Mdavid, PEAS.

T Frazer, Midland Illinois Dialect Patterns, PADS 73;

T Frazer, "South Midland Pronunciation in the North Central States,

AS, 1978, reprinted Allen & Linn (anthology--can't remember the title)

, Academic Press, c. 1986.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:56:06 EST

From:  "Betty S. Phillips"  EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ROOT.INDSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Natalie,

 If you're interested in the lexical distribution of [ju]/[u], I've

published an article on it in AS vol. 56. I have a new article on it

forthcoming in AS if you would like me to send you the manuscript.

Again, it involves lexical distribution in a Georgia community, not

regional distribution.



Betty Phillips

Indiana State U.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 2 Sep 1956 12:27:27 MST

From:  utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]712ADMN.NEBO.EDU

Subject: Re: non-sexist language



American Dialect Society:





    While being told of a semi-recent discussion you had on non-sexist

language, I was amused by suggestions for dealing with the

waiter/waitress problem. The "watron" suggestion is a step in the

right direction, but it sounds too much like "matron." Even worse,

it draws too much attention to "waiter" and "waitress." Thus,

"watron" does not engender respect.



    When I go out to eat, I would like to be served by a



                                                                        dining consultant



who can make recommendations. I would feel much more comfortable

consulting with a dining consultant than with a mere waiter,

waitress, or watron.



       Thank you,

                                                                                                Tom Uharriet



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 12:18:37 -0500

From:  "J. Chambers"  chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Thanks for asking. My database has pretty stuff on [u]/[ju] in the

Golden Horseshoe, the 250km strip around the western tip of Lake

Ontario that includes Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Niagara Falls and

points between, where about one-sixth of Canada's population live.



The data generally show that [ju] is declining. That's no surprise,

because it is in England, the US (except the South?), and probably

evertywhere else where English is spoken.



But it's not a simple decline. There are 3 different categories of

/ju/ words:



1. avenue (and other /ju/-final words like retinue, revenue) show only

a very mild (possibly insignificant) decrease across the age groups:

88% of over 80s have [ju], 91% of 30-39 yr-olds do too, and the line

is flat in between them. Then a slight dip: 84% of 20-29s, and 77% of

14-19s. This is very different from the young Americans immediately

across the border in Niagara (Buffalo, Tonawanda, etc.): there only

37% and 31% of 14-19s and 20-29s have [ju].



2. coupon appears to be idiosyncratic. I get a bimodal distribution:

The youngest groups, from 14 to 49 have a flat line at around 30%

[ju], and the older folks, from 50-79 have a flat line around 54%.

(The over 80s dip down to 35%, and I don't know why.) Incidentally,

I've never seen a distribution like this for any other item.



3. student, news (and other /ju/-medial words) show a regular decline

in [ju] across the ages, as expected. The lines for the two words are

very similar, with student having marginally more [ju]-users than

news, but the general incline goes from about 10% in 14-19s steadily

to 41% for over 80s for news, and just a bit wobbly for student. The

youngest groups are beautifully intertwined: 20-29s at 15%, 30-39s at

20%, 40-49s at 25-27%.



So when we talk about [ju] being replaced by [u], it's clearly only

happening systematically to medial /ju/ in Canada.



Incidetnally, Sandra Clarke has a nice article on this called "The

Americanization of Canadian pronunciation: a survey of palatal glide

usage," in her book Focus on Canada, in the Benjamins series Varieties

of English Around the World, 85-108. Her survey doesn';t include my GH

data (because she wrote it before I had it). There are some good

articles in the book besides Sandra's. She's a good editor too.



By the way, if anyone wants to see the graphic representation of my

/ju/ data, it's available.

                        --Jack Chambers



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 15:57:10 -0500

From:  Keith Denning  denning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Natalie,

There was an article about lexical diffusion and this variable in LANGUAGE

(some time in 1984, I seem to recall) by Betty (S.?) Phillips. (The article

also had some historical lex.diff. work in it, on OE, I think.)

Keith

(denning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emunix.emich.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 20:24:22 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT 1994 Program



          PRELIMINARY PROGRAM



      Georgetown University Round Table

      on Languages and Linguistics 1994

          March 13-16, 1994

 Educational Linguistics, Cross-Cultural Communication,

       and Global Interdependence



Sunday, March 13, 1994

Plenary Session - Gaston Hall



Opening Remarks: James E. Alatis, Chair

     Dean, School of Languages and Linguistics

The Speaking Tree: A Medium of Plural Canons

     Braj Kachru, University of Illinois

Beyond a Culture of Critique:

     The Framing and Reframing of Academic Discourse

     Deborah Tannen, Georgetown University



Monday, March 14, 1994



Morning Concurrent Sessions

(additional speakers to be announced)



Gaston Hall

Teaching Learning Strategies and Cross-Culturalism in the Language Classroom

    Rebecca Oxford, University of Alabama

Towards an Action-Oriented Syllabus

     Zhuang Gen-Yuan, Hangzhou University (China)



ICC Auditorium

The Use of Language Testing for Power and Control

     Elana Shohamy, Tel Aviv University



Plenary Session - Gaston Hall

Beginnings of Language Testing as a Profession

     Bernard Spolsky, Bar-Ilan University



Afternoon Concurrent Sessions



Gaston Hall: Political Implications

Language Choices for West Africa in the Global Village

     Jerry Cline-Bailey, Xavier University (Cincinnati)

Politics, Language Policy, and Textbook Construction: A Case Study

     Joan Morley, University of Michigan

Retooling for Communication: Hungary Reorients its FL Teaching

     Katalin Nyikos, Georgetown University



ICC Auditorium: Pragmatics

Politeness Across Cultures: Implications for Second-Language Teaching

     Ayo Bamgbose, University of Ibadan (Nigeria)

What Do "Yes" and "No" Really Mean in Chinese?

     Yu-Hwei Lii-Shih, National Taiwan University

Culture, Discourse, and Choice of Structure

     Ren Shaozeng, Hangzhou University (China)



Plenary Session - Gaston Hall

Teaching Global Interdependence as a Subversive Activity

     Douglas Brown, San Francisco State University





Tuesday, March 15, 1994



Morning Concurrent Sessions

(additional speakers to be announced)



ICC Auditorium: Computers

Locating Contingency in E-Mail

     Celeste Kinginger, University of Maryland

Computer-Based Classrooms for Language Teaching

     Stephanie J. Stauffer, Georgetown University



Plenary Session - Gaston Hall

Organized Babel: English as a Global Lingua Franca

     Tom McArthur, Oxford University



Afternoon Concurrent Sessions



Gaston Hall: Native Speakers

The Fiction of the Native Speaker in L2 Research

     Eyamba G. Bokamba, University of Illinois

Cross-Cultural Communication and Comparative Terminology

     Faina Citkina, Uzhgorod State University (Ukraine)

French Native-Speaker Use of the Subjunctive in Speech and Writing

     Nadine O'Connor Di Vito, University of Chicago



ICC Auditorium: Language Education

Educational Linguistics and

     the Knowledge Base of Second-Language Teaching

     Donald Freeman, School for International Training

Educational Linguistics: Field and Project

     Leo van Lier, Monterey Institute of International Studies

The Language Educator at Work

     Teresa Pica, University of Pennsylvania



Plenary Session - Gaston Hall

The Pleasure Hypothesis

     Stephen Krashen, University of Southern California





Wednesday, March 16, 1994



Morning Concurrent Sessions

(additional speakers to be announced)



Gaston Hall: Curriculum

A Model for Learning-Strategy Instruction

     in the Foreign-Language Classroom

     Anna Uhl Chamot, Georgetown University

Educational Linguistics and Coherent Curriculum Development:

     The Crucial Link

     Ronald Leow, Georgetown University



ICC Auditorium: Bilingualism

An Alternative to Mainstream Educational Discourse:

     Expecting, Tolerating, Respecting, and Celebrating Diversity

     Rebecca Freeman, University of Pennsylvania

Educational Linguistics: Looking to the East

     Anne Pakir, National University of Singapore



Plenary Session - Gaston Hall

Sources of Language Teachers' Instructional Decisions

     Jack C. Richards, City Polytechnic of Hong Kong



Closing Remarks: James E. Alatis, Chair

Dean, School of Languages and Linguistics, Georgetown University



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Registration form. Please send this form and your check (payable to

Georgetown University) to: Joan C. Cook, Coordinator, GURT 1994,

School of Languages and Linguistics, 303 Intercultural Center,

Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. 20057-1067, USA.



Registration forms must be postmarked no later than February 21,

1994. After the deadline, add $10.00 to the fee.



So that the University may provide reasonable accommodations, we

ask that you notify the GURT 1994 Coordinator of any disability as

soon as possible. Because of the need to schedule sign language

interpreters in advance, please request interpreters no later than

February 28. Any information you provide will be treated

confidentially.



Name (to appear on badge): ____________________________________

Professional Affiliation: _____________________________________

Mailing address: ______________________________________________

City: __________________________ State/Prov.: _________________

Postal code: ___________________ Country: _____________________



Please circle the category for which you are registering:



Full conference (including presessions)

     Professional               $100.00

     Students                 $ 50.00

     Retired                  $ 50.00

     G.U. Students               $ 10.00*

     G.U. Faculty/Staff             waived



     *Waived for 5 hours or more of volunteer work



Presessions only                  $ 20.00

Sunday or Wednesday only              $ 40.00

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For more information, please contact

Joan C. Cook, Coordinator, GURT 1994

Georgetown University School of Languages and Linguistics

303 Intercultural Center, Washington, DC 20057-1067

e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

voice: 202/687-5726  *  fax: 202/687-5712



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 18:36:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



The /u/ versus /ju/ article by Ann Pitts which people are after is Flip-Flop

Prestige in American Tune, Duke, News, American Speech, 61.2, Summer 1986, pp.

130-38.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1994 to 17 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 142 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [u]/[ju] (3)

 2. Too in initial position

 3. Net Resources?

 4. EPS

 5. /k(j)upan/



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 22:58:03 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Natalie, see p. lii in Hartman's essay in DARE I for a short discussion

of tube, due, new, etc.

            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:00:14 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



Seems to me that the explanation of [nyun nyuz] is that this is an "new"

development and not hypercorrection -- response to Rudy Troike's comment.

That is, /u/, including this item in words that earlier had /yu/, is

developing an on-glide. The fact that the nyoon nyoos is on TV, whose

pronunciation "experts" think the correct pronunciation is [nyuz], makes

it SEEM that hypercorrection is at work.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 23:17:45 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Too in initial position



Reply to Keith Russell'squery about 'armload'.



On pp. 87, 88 of Vol I of DARE there are maps of 'armful' and 'armload'.

Americans from MN eastward and down the east coast fill their arms with

wood, and those from OH to CO and down to TX load down their arms. The

former is more common over-all.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 17 Feb 1994 21:28:03 -0800

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Net Resources?



Natalie's query seems to offer an opportunity for offering some

observations about using e-mail and networking in service to

the study of American English.

  I teach a course titled Development of American English, senior level,

mostly senior English majors with a sprinkling of Educationists and a few

grad students.

  Texts: Baron, Grammar and Good Taste (some history)

      Glowka & Lance, Language Variation (survey of field)

      Frazer, "Heartland" English (specific studies)



In addition, I require all students to have accounts on the mainframe

at UNLV. These accounts are generally set up before the first day of

class and based on enrollment information from the registrar (I let

user liaison handle all the paperwork and typing.



  Students are given about one assignment per week to answer via e-mail.

Usually this involves some library work (looking at DARE, American Speech

or some such). In addition, I select discussion that come to my mailbox

from ADS and Linguist to forward to them. I toyed with the idea of

enrolling them all in ADS-L, but didn't, for excellent reasons. Some of

them like to respond to EVERYTHING. That would fill ADS-L with a large

group (29) of enthusiastic amateurs. You folks didn't need that. We

have enough problems of our own. And enough junk mail.

  At any rate, the students are becoming computer-literate (which they

will have to be in spite of the fact that English majors are antediluvian

almost to the point of rejecting the electric typwriter as a machination

of Satan. They are learning that the Information Superhighway is near

and they are about to be ground under whilst still at the on-ramp. Those

headed for teaching are discovering that third graders now more than they

do about parts of speech and mice-driven studies.

  Some of the items that I share with the students are answered in

detail and these responses I collect and forward to individuals in ADS-L

or Linguistics or wherever.

  Anybody who wants a syllabus or further info can request same.

Cheers,

Thomas L. Clark

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 18 Feb 1994 10:35:37 -0500

From:  Suarez C Industries  eps[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLD.STD.COM 

Subject: EPS



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Your free EPS e-mail post office box access information will be mailed to you.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 01:15:10 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: [u]/[ju]



[u]/[ju]: So why is Houston [hju-] and not [hu-]?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 18 Feb 1994 10:58:20 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: /k(j)upan/



I think that Jack Chambers is right about the pronunciation of COUPON being

unrelated to the /njuz/-/nuz/ difference. The pronunciation /kjupan/ is one of

the few that I have been unable to suppress my cringing at, despite 20+ years

of linguistics education and practice. I suspect that, at least in New York

State, there is some sort of social marking to the choice of /kjupan/ vs.

/kupan/, but I don't have a clue what. I'll ask my sister, who has lived in

the Albany area and in Plattsburgh if she has any ideas. (She's a /kjupan/

speaker...)



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalehask



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Feb 1994 to 18 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 319 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /k(j)upan/ (2)

 2. [u]/[ju] (3)

 3. GURT '94 Presessions

 4. Houston St (2)

 5. initial too

 6. Houston St part 2



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 09:26:10 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: /k(j)upan/



When i was a child, during World War II, I recall a Readers Digest (I grew

up textually challenged, believe you moi!) that spent some time discussing

for the vast public whether kyoopon or koopon was right. For the blissful

young, coupon was a word of major incidence at that era, since rationing

of food and gasoline was mediated by coupons. I've forgotten what they

triued to shame us into suppressing. But I was left with the impression

then (whatever value an eight year old's take would be) that kyoopon was

on the same bad side of the tracks as kolyum (noospaper kolyum would be

the sort of thing). Hypercorrectia uninformeda.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 09:27:42 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



it isnt in New York City, by the way--- its [hawstn] street that divides

the Village from Soho by tradition. Tho some people who walk along it

probably, earless in Gaza, say hjustn.



rk.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 01:51:25 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: /k(j)upan/



Howdy, y'all:

    I did not learn until a few years ago (I think it was either when

I moved to Washington D.C. or more likely to Illinois) that there were people

in the world who did NOT say /kyuwpan/. Something vaguely triggers a memory

that the argument was made that this is a FRENCH word, and so should "properly"

be pronounced /kuwpan/ (never mind the proper pronunciation of the second

syllable). I have heard the same rationale given for pronouncing  route 

 as /ruwt/ rather than as the naturally

Great Vowel Shifted /rawt/, the only pronunciation I think I was aware of

until I studied linguistics (or maybe later, after my Ph.D.). Both I suspect

represent transplants from Britain, where French is more sedulously cultivated

in the educational system than here. I would expect the effect likewise to

be stronger in the Northeast, where French is also more cultivated than

elsewhere in the country, and to be associated with the lingering prestige

which things French have in the English world.

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 11:38:08 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT '94 Presessions



           Georgetown University Round Table

           on Languages and Linguistics 1994



              March 13-16, 1994



     Educational Linguistics, Cross-Cultural Communication,

            and Global Interdependence



               PRESESSIONS



    The presessions will be held in the Intercultural Center.

   Please contact the individual organizers for more information.



Friday, March 11, 1994



Arabic Dialect Teaching Workshop

Karin Ryding, Ph.D., and Margaret Nydell, co-organizers

Department of Arabic

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1082

202/687-5646 or rydingk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvm.bitnet



Community Interpreting

Margareta Bowen, Ph.D., and Monika Gehrke, co-organizers

Division of Interpretation and Translation

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-0993

202/687-5848



History of Linguistics

Kurt Jankowsky, Ph.D., organizer

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-5812 or jankowsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Hypermedia Environments Open House

Jackie Tanner, organizer

Language Learning Technology

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-0984

202/687-5766 or jtanner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Issues in Slavic Linguistics (Part 1)

Cynthia Vakareliyska, Ph.D., organizer

Department of Russian

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-0990

202/687-6108



Issues in Teaching ASL as a Second Language

Jeff Connor-Linton, Ph.D., Ceil Lucas, Ph.D., and

    Clayton Valli, Ph.D., co-organizers

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-6156 or clucas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gallua.bitnet



ASL Pragmatics

Catherine Ball, Ph.D., and

     Clare Wolfowitz, Ph.D., co-organizers

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-5949 or cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu





Saturday, March 12, 1994



African Linguistics V (morning)

Rev. Solomon Sara, S.J., organizer

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-5956 or ssara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Colloquium on Academic Listening Across Language-Culture Areas

Abelle Mason, organizer

Department of English as a Foreign Language

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1083

202/687-5978



Issues in Greek Linguistics

James E. Alatis, Ph.D., and Pavlos Pavlou, co-organizers

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-5956 or pavlos[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Issues in Slavic Linguistics (Part 2)

Cynthia Vakareliyska, Ph.D., organizer

Department of Russian

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-0990

202/687-6108



Problems in Portuguese Linguistics

Clea Rameh, Ph.D., organizer

Department of Portuguese

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-0991

202/687-6120





Sunday, March 13, 1994



Special Student Session

Discourse Analysis: Works in Progress

Elif Tolga Rosenfeld and Scott Kiesling, co-organizers

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-5956 or rosenfeld[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -



Registration form. Please send this form and your check (payable to

Georgetown University) to: Joan C. Cook, Coordinator, GURT 1994,

School of Languages and Linguistics, 303 Intercultural Center,

Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. 20057-1067, USA.



So that the University may provide reasonable accommodations, we

ask that you notify the GURT 1994 Coordinator of any disability as

soon as possible. Because of the need to schedule sign language

interpreters in advance, please request interpreters no later than

February 28. Any information you provide will be treated

confidentially.



Name (to appear on badge): ____________________________________

Professional Affiliation: _____________________________________

Mailing address: ______________________________________________

City: __________________________ State/Prov.: _________________

Postal code: ___________________ Country: _____________________



Please circle the category for which you are registering:



Full conference (including presessions)

     Professional               $100.00

     Students                 $ 50.00

     Retired                  $ 50.00

     G.U. Students               $ 10.00*

     G.U. Faculty/Staff             waived



     *Waived for 5 hours or more of volunteer work



Presessions only                  $ 20.00

Sunday or Wednesday only              $ 40.00

Monday or Tuesday only               $ 55.00



For more information on the Georgetown University Round Table on

Languages and Linguistics, please contact

Joan C. Cook, Coordinator, GURT 1994

Georgetown University School of Languages and Linguistics

303 Intercultural Center, Washington, DC 20057-1067

e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

voice: 202/687-5726  *  fax: 202/687-5712



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 10:30:58 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



The native pronunciation in Texas (in the city, not the state) is /yuwst n/.

I remember being startled the first time I heard the time-honored sentence

in the old ACLS materials for ESL, "Is Euston the next station?", thinking

it must be Houston, until I saw it in print. I still don't know where

Euston is; must be around Yale-land.

    Glad to see the January thaw has finally arrived in the Midwest; we

had 85 in Tucson this week.

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 13:30:59 EST

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



 

  [u]/[ju]: So why is Houston [hju-] and not [hu-]?

 



In fact, in (I believe) the second Superman: The Movie, the

villains, mistaking the name of the city for the name of the

entire planet, continually refer to Earth as Planet [hustan].

I'll bet that thrills people in Dallas.



Terry Irons



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 15:47:42 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Houston St



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 19-Feb-1994 03:45pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Houston St





There's a simple answer to the question why the southernmost street in Greenwich

Village is [hawst n]--it ain't named for Sam but for some other feller.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU









Received: 19-Feb-1994 03:47pm



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 18:48:26 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: initial too



Sorry I'm so far behind, but I wanted to get my $.02-worth in. Initial

'too' doesn't seem at all strange to me, though perhaps a little too

informal for written English. Isn't it interesting how varied our

perceptions on this feature have been? Others found it very formal.

I'll have to listen to myself for awhile, but intuition tells me it's

common in my own speech (Atlanta-born). Initial 'as well' is another

matter entirely. I'd mark that sentence with a star in a heartbeat!



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 18:54:00 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Houston St



They've just renamed Houston St. in Atlanta (not pron. like the city in

TX) for an African American important in local history. Sorry I can't

recall who either was named for, but I know the former name came from a

Confederate general. Surely that's not the same one honored in Greenwich

Village?



Ellen



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 19 Feb 1994 18:58:55 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Houston St part 2



One of the reasons people were happy with the name change was that so

few people knew how to correctly pronounce the name of the

street anyway.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Feb 1994 to 19 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 76 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. two requests

 2. houston (2)

 3. network



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 20 Feb 1994 12:44:44 RSA

From:  lynne murphy  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: two requests



hello-- i'm back on this list after a long period of travelling, so

i apologize in advance if i'm asking about already-flogged topics.



i have two requests for information:



(1) could someone please send me info on ads sessions at the next MLA

conference (san diego) or any other ads calls for papers for conferences

happening next winter? (by the time the newsletters get to me here in the

southern hemisphere, the due dates have usually passed.)



(2) does anyone have an e-mail address for a charles vandersee of u. of

virginia? he gave a paper at the most recent mla on "dictionaries with

pockets for change: an african american cue."



answer to (1) may be posted to the list if the ansewrer feels it's of

general interest. otherwise, respond to me personally.



lynne murphy

university of the witwatersrand, south africa

104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 20 Feb 1994 11:32:30 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: houston



Let a West Virginian speak. At least, I hope I do. I am new to this

game, having retired in 1987 before faculty members were given computers

to play with. Now I sit at home with my PC and feel intimadated as hell.

Please somebody let me know if this comes through. North of here a few

miles (here being Morgantown WV WVU) is a town Houston, Pa.--pronounced

I am vehemently told as if it were houseton hauston.







I am vehemently told as if it were houseton hauston. Go figure, as they say

here. Martha Howard



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 20 Feb 1994 14:39:55 -0500

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Re: houston



Martha Howard's contribution may engender yet another thread.

Where else is "Go figure" used?



--

      Mike Agnes

       Internet: by91[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu

        Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm

          Fax: 216 579 1255



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 20 Feb 1994 16:44:58 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: network



This is absolutely marvelous. I feel like I have come home. Am one of

Marckwardt's products from the University of Michigan and worked with

McDavid on Linguistic Atlas info in West Virginia, where I have been

since 1950. Long enough that I probably sound like a West Virginian even

though i will never be one--only way to do that is to be born here. I am

still regarded as an outsider, albeit a friendly one. Spent mostof my

 professional career teaching linguistics at WVU, esp. American English,

based on Marckwardt, of course. My limited dialect research has been with

West Virginia terms. Glad to share what little I know. Just ask. M. Howard



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Feb 1994 to 20 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 112 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [u]/[ju] in Houston

 2. [u]/[ju]/[au] in Houston

 3. Houston (2)

 4. houston



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 21 Feb 1994 10:53:40 -0500

From:  "J. Chambers"  chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



 

  [u]/[ju]: So why is Houston [hju-] and not [hu-]?

 

Because /ju/ follows a non-coronal consonant. Orthographic  oo  is

phonemic /u/, never /ju/, when it is tense, but the other orthographic

things like  eu ,  u...e ,  ou  are (or were) /ju/. Houston has [ju]

like Hughes, hew, Huguenot, but unlike Hoosier, hoot,

hootchie-kootchie, etc.



What makes "coupon" interesting is that it is an instance of /ju/

changing from [ju] to [u] after a non-coronal C, where it never does

except in East Anglia (so cute, cupid, puke, music, argument, acute,

etc.). When dialectologists noticed "coupon" changing in the 1940s,

they must have wondered if it was the beginning of yod-dropping before

non-coronals. Now, 50 years later, we know it's not--or not yet,

anyway. The ONLY other word I know with /ju/ sometimes getting

realized as [u] after a non-coronal is "puberty", which for some

people is pronuonced 'pooberty'. I wonder if those same peole

pronounce "pubic" as poobic?

                    Jack Chambers



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 09:07:34 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: [u]/[ju]/[au] in Houston



Question is, is Houston a cpd. with OE. [hu:s]? If so, the [hjus-]/

[jus-] forms must have been analogized.



Thus far, we seem to have [hjus-] as the name of four counties in Alabama,

Minnesota, Tennesee, Texas; a town in Mississippi; a borough in

Pennsylvania; two cities in Texas. Locals in the Texas port city say

[jus-]. A county in Georgia and a street in NYC Greenwich Village

are [haus-]; recomposition, as in housewife   hussy; cf. supercomposition

of house-husband. What about hustings? I had always had a reading

pron. with [hjus-], but the older pron. seems to be with schwa.



OED has Houstonia [hus-] (plant genus), Houston's folds [hus-]/[hjus-]

(anat.). Does this indicate that the older pronunciation was [hus-]?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 21 Feb 1994 20:39:23 -0600

From:  PETER GINGISS  PJGingiss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UH.EDU 

Subject: Houston



The question of the origins of Houston had come up before on the Linguist list

as a side issue to the discussion of differences between /yust[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ and /hyust[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n

pronunciations. According to Norval Smith:



  The funny thing is that the place that is ultimately the source of

  the name Houston - whether the place in Texas gets its name from Sam

  Houston or not - Houston in Renfrewshire, Scotland, is pronounced

  [hust[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n]. It is a Scots name, hoose (i.e. "house") + toon   t[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n (i.e.

  "town" (actually rather "settlement")).



And Rosta of the U.K. wrote:



  I have always pronounced _Houston_ as if the first syllable is that

  of _who_ rather than that of _hue_. I wasn't arguing about URs in any

  theoretical sense. There may be a British/American difference here.

  Webster's 3rd lists /(h)yu:st[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ - which conforms to your

  expectations. _Houston_, being a proper noun, isn't in the OED or

  other British Dictionaries I have to hand. But both Webster & OED

  have _houstonia_, named after a scottish botanist. Webster gives

  /(h)yu:'stouni[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/, with alternatives /hu:-/ and /hau-/, but OED has

  only /hU'st[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Uni[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ (I reinterpret OED 1st edition pronunciation into

  more conventional form). I've asked three other English people with

  non- regional accents, and they all say _Houston_ with 1st syllable

  as in _who_.





I hope those who wrote to the lInguist list in 1991 do not object to my

requoting their words; I found them most interesting.



___________________________

Peter Gingiss                       PJGingiss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uh.edu

Department of English                   (713) 743-2947

University of Houston

Houston, Texas 77204-3012



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 21 Feb 1994 21:35:04 CST

From:  Gerald Walton  VCGW[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMSVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: houston



On Sun, 20 Feb 1994 11:32:30 -0500 Martha Howard said:

 Please somebody let me know if this comes through.



Yep, it arrived safely in MS. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 21 Feb 1994 21:37:19 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Houston



Peter--

    Thanks for the Linguist quotes. The information re Scotland certainly

clarifies things. Do folks in Houston also pronounce Sam's name without th e

/h/? (Overall, it's part of the long "drift" to delete /h/ before resonants/

glides: hr, hl, most recently hw, and now hy. It is bound to happen.)

        Rudy Troike



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Feb 1994 to 21 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 122 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [u]/[ju]/[au] in Houston

 2. second thoughts (3)

 3. Addendum to second thoughts (2)

 4. Houston



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 01:26:59 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]/[au] in Houston



Texas County is the largest county in Missouri, and Houston is its county

seat. It's in the middle of the Ozarks Plateau, so the older locals

would be likely to say [hjust n] and the younger ones perhaps [just n].



In all the discussion of 'Houston' we should keep spelling pronunciation

in mind.



Texas County was organized in 1845, the year Texas became a state. Dallas

County, Missouri, was organized in 1844, but I'm not sure whether it was named

for the Texas city. Texas Co and Houston were named to honor the new state.

Moses Austin, one of the earliest settlers of Texas, was living in Missouri

when he got his land grant.             DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 10:04:03 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: second thoughts



I seent a message to you-all (y'uns in Pittsburgh) yesterday but typed

a letter wrong in the address and got back that terrifying message "un

deliverable mail" with phrases like "illegal domain" in it. Scares me so

I hesitate to answer the door for fear a federal agent is waiting outside to

arrest me. I'll try again. I was speculating on how much regional dialect

might be the result of an innocent mispronunciation being picked up, passed

on and preserved. When I was seven, our maid served me every morning a

"porched" egg. I would eat it and go off to school, wonderin why it was

called porched. Because it should be eaten on a porch, or cooked on a porch?

But even in KC it was too cold in the winter to do that. I finally decided

that the brown piece of toast under the egg could be considered a porch;

therefore porched egg. Unfortunately, my mother eventually straightened me

out. What if she hadn't and I had taught my children and all my students about

porched eggs? REGIONAL DDIALECT! Years later I had a marvelous cleaning woman who could have given Thurber's Della a run for her money. Her best occurred the morning she called after me as I left for work to tell me that she probably

wouldn't get as much done as usual because her various veins were really

bothering her. I mulled that over all morning, knowing it wasn't right but

unable to think of what she should have said until in the middle of a lecture

on the influence of the hacienda culture in the Southwest, I suddenly said--to

the great confusion of the class--VARICOSE! Mary also told me every spring

that we had the nicest forcynthia in the neighborhood. I loved that word and used it until my four year old asked why, since nobody named cynthia lived at our

house, didn't we have a bush called formartha. Ijust looked at him and said,

"

well, it wouldn't be as pretty and it certainly doesn't sound as good." Mary

liked my zinnies too. I still grow them--in memory of Mary.

Sure hope this goes through. I will never have the energy to do it again.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 10:19:09 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: Addendum to second thoughts



I have been told by a reliable source that since I am so delighted with

all my new faceless friends, I could have more if I included in my signa

ture my email address. So here it is. Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.

WVNET.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 07:44:14 -0800

From:  Paul Pease  pease[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRL.COM 

Subject: Re: second thoughts



I went to high school in Minneapolis. When I got to Southwest High, our

rival was Washburn, pronounced Warshburn. I suspect to this day that r is

still in Washburn. AM I right?



I was eleven before I found out there was no l in flaucet. Where water

comes of. My folks thought it was cute, sonever corrected me.



Cheers!



On Tue, 22 Feb 1994, Martha Howard wrote:



  on and preserved. When I was seven, our maid served me every morning a

  "porched" egg. I would eat it and go off to school, wonderin why it was

  called porched. Because it should be eaten on a porch, or cooked on a porch?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 08:39:30 -0800

From:  Roger Vanderveen  rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM 

Subject: Re: second thoughts



  From: Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 



  wouldn't get as much done as usual because her various veins were really



My wife's grandmother, a Spanish immigrant, had another word for that ailment.

Grandma has "very close veins." She also talks about when a woman becomes

"pregrant."



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 15:22:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Addendum to second thoughts



Down Louisville way, us folk etymologizers had 'very close veins,' not

'various' ones.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 15:18:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Houston



Rudy,

Your 'long drift' includes even forms in OE before nasals - e.g., OE 'hna:l'

now NE 'nail.'

I am no /h/ dropper before /y/, but I am a fisherman. Imagine my surprise on

moving to Ann Arbor and asking where local people fished being told 'In the

urine.' (Turned out, of course, to be 'In the Huron' (River)).Didn 't sound

like a very tasty fish fry at first.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1994 to 22 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 12 messages totalling 217 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. [u]/[ju] in Houston (6)

 2.  No subject given 

 3. Strange Advertisement (3)

 4. ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1994 to 22 Feb 1994

 5. local locality pronunciations



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 12:51:05 +0100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



    Where I come from Houston is /hu:stn/ because huge is /hu:j/ and

Hughes is /hu:z/. When we do yod-dropping, we go the whole hog!

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 22 Feb 1994 22:20:49 -0600

From:  Tanya J Heeg-1  heeg0002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



I would like to subscribe to your list. Thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:09:08 -0600

From:  PETER GINGISS  PJGingiss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UH.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



Rudy Troike asked whether people pronounced the name of Sam Houston and the

name of the city the same. Marianne Cooley and I, in a submitted but yet

unpublished paper, found that about 10% of Houstonians pronounced the name of

the city /yust[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n? and the rest /hyust[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/. Cynthia Bernstein said at the time

that she and Guy Bailey found the same (10.66% for Houston, but they found some

"other" as well). My guess is that people would pronounce the name the same as

the city but it would be hard to test.



Rudy's suggestion that the loss of /h/ is part of a process is also what we

concluded. However,the /hy/ is much more complicated than the /hw/. It is much

less advanced, occurs in few words, relatively, and most of these are borrowed.

We concluded:



  It seems unlikely that two or three individuals represent the start of a

  major sound change, although one can surmise that /hj/ would be the final

  "h cluster" to simplify. What is more probable here is that these

  speakers generalized the /h/ deletion rule in learning the language

  initially or more probably that this represents borrowing from speakers in

  other areas, such as the East, in which this rule is more advanced.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:27:48 CST

From:  Glen Accardo  glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTINT.COM 

Subject: Strange Advertisement



I've been lurking on this list for a while. But when I saw this sign,

I just had to ask. There is something rather odd about it, but I

understand what they are saying. The sign is for a funeral home and

says "We honor the passing of a lifetime: with dignity and care."



I've never seen the word "passing" used with "of a lifetime." I've passed

on many "deals of a lifetime," and "chances of a lifetime." I've wittnessed

and had "performances of a lifetime," and seen "once in a lifetime" events.



I understand "passing away," "passing on," etc., so the metaphor seems okay,

but what is it about "passing" that makes it sound so wrong in this add?



glen accardo

Software Interfaces, Inc.

Houston, Texas 77084

glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softint.com

-------------------------

"Did the Corinthians ever write back?"



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 11:42:59 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



Peter Gingiss notes that [hy] is more complicated than [hw], and Peter

Trudgill demonstrated a piece of that complexity. Americans seem to have

yod-dropping only in 'coupon' (if yod-dropping is what's involved there; but it

seems to me that this is an individual lexical item). 'Coupon' & 'Houston'...

Earlier in the language the [w] was dropped in 'two' and 'who'.

Is Trudgill's [hu:j] 'huge' related in some way to historical [w] loss before

back vowels, or is it an independent development?

                          DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 10:58:00 CST

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1994 to 22 Feb 1994



I've just received my NADS 26.1, and wanted to let everyone know that if you ha

ve a question on surreptitious recording (see p. 16), you can use e-mail to get

 it to me. In fact, it might be best if you communicated such questions to my

privately rather than through this bulletin board--not just to preserve your ow

n anonymity (if that's important to you), but to keep the board from getting cl

uttered. Thanks.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 14:03:54 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



Dear Don,



    I can't make any systematic pronouncements, but around here I hear

[dju:] for 'dew' and occasionally [nju:+stju:dInt] for 'new student'--but

more from old folks and less from young. The distribution seems as crazy

as the distribution of [a] and open-o in 'log,' 'frog,' 'dog,' etc.



    Students make fun of my [yu:mr] for their [hjumr] 'humor.' They

also distinguish between 'which' and 'witch,' which I don't.



    You're not trying to say that someone says [hu:stn] for [ju:stn]

are you? Houston County, which is just south of Macon, is pronounced as

[hawstn]. Figure that as a Texas boy.



    Off the subject completely: Buena Vista, Alabama, is pronounced

[bju:na], read schwa for [a] here. I thought the disc jockey was joking,

but he wasn't.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 09:24:02 -0800

From:  Paul Pease  pease[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRL.COM 

Subject: Re: Strange Advertisement



On Wed, 23 Feb 1994, Glen Accardo wrote:



  I've been lurking on this list for a while. But when I saw this sign,  

I just had to ask. There is something rather odd about it, but I  

understand what they are saying. The sign is for a funeral home and  

says "We honor the passing of a lifetime: with dignity and care."

   I'm reminded of the time a Hot L.A. ad agency pitched the Forest Lawn

account with no success but a most memorable slogan:



"If you aren't buried in Forest Lawn, you haven't lived!"



Cheers!



Paul Pease, Writer Consultant 302 Bryant, Palo Alto CA 94301

CompuServe 72271,3640 | MCI Mail 201-3837 | Prodigy bcxk80b

____________________________________________________________

Specializing in high technology marketing communications since

Intel's 1101 and the Osborne O1. Building my next career as

an E-mail Amanuensis. Open to talk about projects: 415-322-2072.

            Cheers!

===============================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 16:51:33 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: local locality pronunciations



In re Wayne Glowka's surprise at the pronunciation of Buena Vista, I

have learned here in West Virginia to listen to how a native says an

area or town name before I venture to doit. Example (read [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] as schwa)

Kanawha is k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]na and Pisgah is pizgee.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 18:42:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



Buena Vista, IN (bet you can't find it on a map) is also pronounced [byuna

vIsta] (read schwa for a) and comes with a folk etymological narrative. It is

said that the local priest (who, of course, knew Latin) gave the community

this Latin name for 'pleasant view.' The Mexican-American War naming fetish

apparently left no folk memory (even though there is a Saltilloville-you can

guess the pronunciation) not far away.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 21:45:42 EST

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



Rio Grande OH [not far from Bob Evans' farm in Gallipolis] is pronounced [raIO].

. . and it's [gael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]polis] to the locals, not [galIp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] as we city yokels

wouold have it!



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 23 Feb 1994 19:01:10 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Strange Advertisement



It sounds great to my ears (and is good marketing!) precisely because

it uses the idiomatic "passing" ( = die) and a lifetime = someone who

has lived a long, productive, four score and ten. It is like the "loved

one" -- see the movie with Jonathan Winters.

--Alan Kaye--

linguistics, cal. state univ., Fullerton



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 1994 to 23 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 39 messages totalling 715 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. local locality pronunciations (11)

 2. Local pron. of toponyms (2)

 3. Strange Advertisement (2)

 4. [u]/[ju] in Houston

 5. Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet (3)

 6. Texas town names (6)

 7. Local pronunciation of toponyms

 8. Other side of Atlantic (2)

 9. Ed Callary, Please

 10. croissants (2)

 11. Student research

 12. e-mail  second thoughts (4)

 13. Houston

 14. local locality pronunciation

 15. Address change



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 00:00:15 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



In this vein, I've always regarded these idiosyncratic local pronunciations as

our modern (modren?) shibboleths. One of my favorites is the suburb of

Rochester spelled Chili and pronounced to rhyme with jai-alai.



                            LH



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:40:04 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Local pron. of toponyms



Okay, top this:



Cremora, Virginia: [k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]'mor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] (dissimilatorishce Schwund)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 02:03:20 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



Columbia County: Claverack (old whaling town)

        30 years ago pronounced, and still by locals

        Klovrik. Spelling pron. beginning to take hold.



Dutchess County: Plateau (old telephone exchange)

        homophone of Plato.



Delaware County: Delhi

        pron. Dell-high



Greene County: Athens

        local pron. /eythenz/, gradually displaced by digraph

            in first syll.



New York County: New York

        monosyllable in ordinary utterance, r-less.



r



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 00:54:15 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Strange Advertisement



I can't help contributing the Jolly Funeral Home, in Clarksville, Texas, and the

  wonderful sign in Taipei (Taiwan): Happy VD Clinic.

    Yes, it Texas we can top anything: Refugio, pronounced /riyfyUriyow/.

--Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:49:14 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston



 Buena Vista, IN (bet you can't find it on a map) is also pronounced [byuna

 vIsta] (read schwa for a) and comes with a folk etymological narrative. It is

 said that the local priest (who, of course, knew Latin) gave the community

 this Latin name for 'pleasant view.' The Mexican-American War naming fetish

 apparently left no folk memory (even though there is a Saltilloville-you can

 guess the pronunciation) not far away.

 Dennis Preston





Wasted away again in Saltilloville,

Looking for my lost shaker of Salt



Wayne Glowka (with no stories about Buena Vista, AL, except that there is

some kind of country "nightclub" (term used by visiting scholar from China

at our own Cowboy Bill's) there.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 07:58:10 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



 In this vein, I've always regarded these idiosyncratic local pronunciations as

 our modern (modren?) shibboleths. One of my favorites is the suburb of

 Rochester spelled Chili and pronounced to rhyme with jai-alai.

 

                             LH



From Wayne Glowka

Status: R



A colleague has just reminded me that Taliafero County (in Georgia

somewhere along I-20) is pronounced [taliv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r] as a means of forgetting the

jerk after whoM the county was named.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:36:09 --100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Local pron. of toponyms



    There's no point you guys on that side of the Atlantic trying to

compete with the REAL thing. You all know about Leicester and Worcester.

But I bet you don't know - just to pick 2 examples at random just down the

road from me in Norwich:

    Wymondham /wind[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m/

    Happisburgh /heizbr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/



Scores more available on request.

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:42:17 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



I'm not sure whether the eponymous gentleman was being forgotten or

memorialized. I recall a former quarterback--he may have played for the

Jets and/or the Patriots--whose name was spelled Taliaferro (like the county

except for the double t) and pronounced in just that manner, as in Oliver.

So we may not be dealing with perverse toponymy here but perverse onomastics,

if that's the right technonym.

--Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

 In this vein, I've always regarded these idiosyncratic local pronunciations as

 our modern (modren?) shibboleths. One of my favorites is the suburb of

 Rochester spelled Chili and pronounced to rhyme with jai-alai.

 

                             LH



From Wayne Glowka

Status: R



A colleague has just reminded me that Taliafero County (in Georgia

somewhere along I-20) is pronounced [taliv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r] as a means of forgetting the

jerk after whoM the county was named.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:38:29 EST

From:  Patricia Willis  WILLP[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



Endless Americanization of French Midwestern place names:

  Des Plaines, Illinois = dess planes

  Joliet, Illinois = jolly-ette

  Momence, Illinois = mo-me'n-cee



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 08:59:46 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



And then there are the interesting variations on Lafayette, including

laFAYette County, Mississippi.



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   who stayed in the [bjun[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] vIst[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] Hotel in Biloxi long before

   hearing the [bwE...] version of the word



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:27:04 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



Since I just succeeded in getting into this group about twenty-four hours

ago, I am ignorant of practice and protocol, but I have noticed a problem

with transcription of ash, schwa, etc. Has anyone established a handy set

of qwerty phonetic/phonemic symbols for general use?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:49:56 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Strange Advertisement



In the late 1960s when I lived in Greenwich Village there was an

establishment to the south (south of Houston Street, or SOHO) in

Little Italy called the Vitale Funeral Home.



dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:38:57 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



Here's a long answer to a simple question.



There is no standard yet, but the idea being floated by the Association

for Computing in the Humanities, for phonetic symbols and many other

things besides, is SGML, short for Standard Generalized Markup Language.

SGML encoded texts not only mark special symbols and diacritics, but also

different font choices, beginnings and ends of documents and document

subunits (paragraphs, but also other units). Symbols, or characters with

diacritics, are known as "entities". They are put into a text using only

the regular alphanumeric characters (roughly those on the keyboard, that

always show up in e-mail) plus an "opener delimiter" and a "closer

delimiter". Thus, an e with an acute accent would be represented as



é



where the ampersand is the opener and the semicolon is the closer (it is

permissible to omit the closer before a space or punctuation mark). There

is a whole list of names for IPA symbols that was prepared as part of the

TEI (text encoding initiative). In practice, people often use the opener

and a short description of their own devising, such as &aesc for the

digraph found in Old English, or &barsmallcapI for the most frequent sound

in American English, or &hookedn for the velar nasal phoneme.



Personally I am not in favor of SGML or TEI. Their net effect is greatly

to increase file size wherever there are many "entities" in use. They

seem offer complex coding systems that require "filter" software before

anyone can reasonably be expected to read a text so prepared---this when

the real problem is the ancient limitation in transmission standards to

7-bit units, which makes the keyboard alphanumerics all that can be

transmitted. An alternative is something like UNICODE, a replacement for

ASCII, which removes the 7-bit limitation, but would also require hardware

updates. I understand that IBM and most of the other big companies have

signed on to UNICODE for the eventual standard.



As a short term solution for light use of special symbols, as on e-mail,

use of ampersand plus description seems a reasonable practice.

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:09:36 CST

From:  Glen Accardo  glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTINT.COM 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



 

      Yes, it Texas we can top anything: Refugio, pronounced /riyfyUriyow/.

 

Take a trip from Beaumont to Humble, and you'll see signs for Nome, Italy

and Lebanon. Not bad for ninety miles. While you're in Refugio, take a

side trip to Marfa. But my favorite Texas town name is still Sublime.



glen accardo

Software Interfaces, Inc.

Houston, TX 77084

glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softint.com

---------------------------------

Would you trust a UNIX pacemaker?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:58:00 CST

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



Some Kansas shibboleths:



1. The Arkansas river is the ar KAN sas (vowel in CAN) in Wichita, while the

state is AR k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n saw. A small town near the Oklahoma border is ar KAN sas City.

In Oklahoma, the river and the state are pronounced the same, but the city

keeps its Kansas pronunciation.



2. El Dorado (near Wichita) is el do RAY do.



3. Olathe (a town between Lawrence and Kansas City) is o LAY the (schwa at the

end.



4. And, so far as I know, only easterners pronounce Colorado and Nevada with

the /a/ in father. Out here these have the vowel in CAT.



5. Not from Kansas, but only the unwashed and college professors pronounce

Cairo, Illinois as anything but KAY ro.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:19:00 MST

From:  BBOLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNMB.BITNET

Subject: Local pronunciation of toponyms



   How about Burrishole, Co. Mayo (Emerald Isle): [br[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]'zu:l]?



   Cu Uladh

   Ollscoil Meicsiceo Nua



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:58:21 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



The reason for the /byuwn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ pronunciation of  bueno  is, of course, the

lack of homorganic stop + resonant initial clusters in English, e.g. */tl/

(despite e.e. cummings  tlot, tlot ), */dl/, */pw/, */bw/. Some speakers

even have problems with /gw/, presumably reflecting labial-velar similarities.

One speaker I know pronounces  bueno  as /byuweynow/.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:17:25 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: Other side of Atlantic



Peter Trudgill is right. Over the pond they really go crazy. E.g.,

maudlin for magadalen and beechum place for beauchamp place or as one

cabbie told me--boochum place.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:28:50 -0800

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Ed Callary, Please



EC, please send me an address. The stuff I sent you keeps bouncing back.

Thanks,

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:45:58 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



 Some Kansas shibboleths:

 

 1. The Arkansas river is the ar KAN sas (vowel in CAN) in Wichita, while the

 state is AR k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n saw. A small town near the Oklahoma border is ar KAN sas City.

 In Oklahoma, the river and the state are pronounced the same, but the city

 keeps its Kansas pronunciation.

 

 2. El Dorado (near Wichita) is el do RAY do.

 

 3. Olathe (a town between Lawrence and Kansas City) is o LAY the (schwa at the

 end.

 

 4. And, so far as I know, only easterners pronounce Colorado and Nevada with

 the /a/ in father. Out here these have the vowel in CAT.

 

 5. Not from Kansas, but only the unwashed and college professors pronounce

 Cairo, Illinois as anything but KAY ro.





From Wayne Glowka: Texicans say [kalorad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. But we're Texicans, not

Status: R



Westerners.



[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:35:22 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



  

       Yes, it Texas we can top anything: Refugio, pronounced /riyfyUriyow/.

  

 Take a trip from Beaumont to Humble, and you'll see signs for Nome, Italy

 and Lebanon. Not bad for ninety miles. While you're in Refugio, take a

 side trip to Marfa. But my favorite Texas town name is still Sublime.

 

 glen accardo

 Software Interfaces, Inc.

 Houston, TX 77084

 glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softint.com

 ---------------------------------

 Would you trust a UNIX pacemaker?





Well, I live down the road from Deepstep, Georgia. I've been wondering

what somebody stepped in there. Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:39:32 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



In Message Thu, 24 Feb 1994 09:58:21 -0700,

 Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arizvms.bitnet  writes:



 The reason for the /byuwn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ pronunciation of  bueno  is, of course, the

 lack of homorganic stop + resonant initial clusters in English, e.g. */tl/

 (despite e.e. cummings  tlot, tlot ), */dl/, */pw/, */bw/. Some speakers

 even have problems with /gw/, presumably reflecting labial-velar similarities.

 One speaker I know pronounces  bueno  as /byuweynow/.

     Rudy Troike



One pronunciation that always gets me is how (at least in the midwest

and apparently on national tv) people pronounce croissant, which

sounds something like /krusaent/. I always expect the krwa syllable

to become kroy. Why kru?



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 13:39:37 CST

From:  Dennis Baron  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Other side of Atlantic



In Message Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:17:25 -0500,

 Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU  writes:



 Peter Trudgill is right. Over the pond they really go crazy. E.g.,

 maudlin for magadalen and beechum place for beauchamp place or as one

 cabbie told me--boochum place.



Not to mention irkut for Urquhart, if you've been following masterpiece

theater/re

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:09:31 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: croissants



In response to Dennis's post, I'd figure that the expectation that

'croissant'-- [kroysaent] would be based on either spelling or (a reversal of)

history, in the sense that the [oy] diphthong represents the earlier stage of

what developed into MFr. [wa] (around the Revolution?). But in fact this

particular change doesn't strike me as being plausibly reversible, and in any

case from a phonological (rather than orthographic) point of view, his

attested [krusaent] is a better representation of the source. Or the other

half of the diphthong could be retained, and indeed I've heard something like

[kr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SANT] even more frequently than the previously noted simplification.

  \

   schwa                    Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:52:42 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: Re: croissants



Larry Horn has heard [kr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SANT], and that's what I hear from people who

aren't trying to produce the French word. My guess is that on the

analogy of, e.g., restaurant, which is now an English word and

pronounced in the U.S. according to American English phonological

rules, croissant is also now an English word and pronounced in the

U.S. (well, in Washington, anyway) according to American English

phonological rules.



Doesn't Burger King have a breakfast sandwich called Croissan'wich?

And wouldn't that be related to a notion that croissant is the

(new) English word for what used to be called crescent rolls? And

could the pronunciation of crescent have had some influence on the

pronunciation of (English) croissant?



Just speculating,



Joan C. Cook

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:57:59 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: Student research



Reminded by notice in NADS 26.1 of teaching techniques, including involvin

students in research of the research project carried out by one of my

students on existence or lack thereof of regional variation in college

slang. One of her questions was, "What term do you use for celebrating

on Friday afternoons when classes are over and the weekend has begun"

Her hypothesis was that the term used on the West Virginia University campus

was unique to this campus. The term, used by all WVU celebrants, is

"jiffing"--a verb made from the acronym TGIF. After sending questionnaires all over the country, and finding no use of the term at all, she prepared her final

draft, only to receive a late return from an informant at Bennington, who

calmly announced, I use jiffing. Devastated to see her hypothesis blown out

of the water, she set about some detective work and after two weeks of

investigation finally located the informant, whose name she had not known.

She burst into my office, shouting, "She grew up in Morgantown and started

jiffing when she was at Morgantown High." Now, please send your students

outtomorrow to go jiffing! martha howard (a friend of archie's--no

capitals)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:59:54 -0700

From:  Dan Brink  Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



I strongly agree with Bill's advocacy of UNICODE as opposed to

SGML-type markup for non-ASCII characters. Of course, current

7-bit E-mail can't handle UNICODE (although it *could* with

with some sort of mail agent client which could shift from UNICODE

to 7-bit. And, of course, it would give us non-Roman alphabets, etc.,

as well. WWW, Mosaic, and the like can already deliver accents, etc.

at long distance, making the TEI's 7-bit work-around less and less

impt.



=========================================

Daniel Brink, Professor of English

ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY

BOX 870302

TEMPE AZ 85287-0302

602/965-4182o 602/965-3168m 602/965-3451f 602/965-2679hcf

Internet: Dan.Brink[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:30:00 CST

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



My thanks to Wayne Glowka for the information regarding the second largest

state.



Larry Davis



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 14:31:00 CST

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



Appropos some fine town names. My favorites are Admire, Kansas and Peculiar,

Missouri.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:43:16 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: e-mail  second thoughts



Doesn't everybody's e-mail address appear at the top of the postings as

they come in? Mine do. Whe I want to write smone I pull u an old

message of their s and just hit /r/.



Tim F



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:40:34 EST

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Texas town names



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



Linguist Margaret Schlauch--who defected to Poland during the McCarthy

era--referred to Purgetoire MO as pronounced "PicketWire" and the image of

Purgatory with white picket fences has lasted with me these 30+ years. . .



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 17:38:00 EST

From:  "Larry.Hauser"  21798LAH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Houston



I hope they don't get Moon. It looks like Rodney Peete is the qb of the

future it they don't get Mitchell. Browning Nagel? Todd Marinovich? Scott

Zolak? Actually, Chris Miller might be a nice pick up, if his knee holds up.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 16:56:45 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: e-mail  second thoughts



  Doesn't everybody's e-mail address appear at the top of the postings as

  they come in? Mine do. Whe I want to write smone I pull u an old

  message of their s and just hit /r/.



A few people are on systems that strip the 'from' line from incoming

mail, leaving only the 'sender' line (ADS-L). Whether you can send

a reply to an individual rather than the list without re-addressing

also varies from system to system. The list is set up for ordinary

replies to go to the list. Some people have alternate reply commands

to reply to the original sender instead, but not all systems give that

option. Mine doesn't. If I want to reply to the individual instead

of the list, I enter 'r' and then change the 'to' line from the list

address to the individual's address.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:05:42 EST

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: e-mail  second thoughts



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"  MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 



No, what's listed on your heading is system-specific. My own header doesn't

give my correct address but a system-internal one. It's best to list it (which

is easy to do with a macro), thus:

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 18:35:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciation



Americanization of Midwestern French place names and no mention of of the

former Narbonne, IN now Gnaw Bone? Shocking!

Dennis Preston

(More exciting, I think, than the well-known Picketwire (purgatoire) River in

Colorado, but for us Hoosiers, Colorado is hardly Midwestern, although, since

the first message inthis chain came from out East, I reckon anything west of

Poconos and east of Las Vegas is 'Midwest'.)

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 19:01:25 PST

From:  John Baugh  John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Address change



REPLY TO 01/15/93 05:37 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society":

Address change



Edgar:



Thanks for your letter. Yes; I'm very interested in the prospect of

making a contribution, and I'm honored to be invited. I really

appreciate it. Best, JB



To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 21:04:29 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



The trouble was they kept the wrong spelling: if they had just written it

as Picket Wire, nobody would have been the wiser. This reminds of the

famous double etymology of Smackover, Ark. The folk etymology is that it

was so named because "it was smack over the river" from somewhere. The

alleged real etymology is "chemin couvert", according to Ernest Haden.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 21:15:09 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: e-mail  second thoughts



Just a small suggestion to everyone to at least sign your name at the bottom

of an e-note. I don't want to waste the space to save a whole screen-full of

header, but sometimes have to when the note is not signed, or sometimes don't

realize until too late that there was not a signature at the end. Obviously

for systems that strip off the header, this would be an even more important

consideration. To get personal responses, it would not hurt to add the

e-mail address at the end, too.

    Rudy Troike [rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu]



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 24 Feb 1994 23:34:07 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



Kentucky town names bettern those.



Try Dwarf. Or Viper.



[Col.] R. Kelly



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1994 to 24 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 22 messages totalling 692 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Local pron. of toponyms (2)

 2. local locality pronunciations (4)

 3. Texas town names

 4. Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet (4)

 5. Regional variation in BE (2)

 6. Bilingually Redundant Place names (2)

 7. Bilingual reduplication (2)

 8. [u]/[ju] in Houston/Place Names/Ads for Fun. Homes (2)

 9. GURT '94 Preconference Tutorials

 10. Bounced Mail

 11. [u]/[ju]



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 01:11:06 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Local pron. of toponyms



kep j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE], m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zUr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]   j = voiced affricate, [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa

Does that come close to topping k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] VA?

There's a Byuna Vista in Arkansas too.

And maIl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n, m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zUr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]

         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 01:30:16 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



In West Texas,Colorado City is [kal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]reyD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] sIDI], with some vowel lengthening.

I sent out a puzzler a few minutes ago. I failed to remember that not

all of you would know kep j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] from maIl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n. That's Cape Girardeau and

Milan, the latter being near [l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] pleD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] (La Plata) in northern Missouri.

And there's a Cairo [keyro]in Missouri too.

                      DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 01:05:19 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



I'm surprised no one has mentioned one of the most famous (and my favorite)

Texas town name: Dime Box, and even better, there's Old Dime Box. Seems there

was a box people would put a letter and a dime in for anyone abouts who was

going into the nearest town that had a postoffice to carry the letter to and

mail it for them. See Fred Tarpley, East Texas Place Names if you don't

believe me.

    For you bilingualers, people out here in Arizona are into redundan-

cies: Picacho [big peak] Peak and Table Mesa [table].

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:32:12 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



But, Bill, I was thinking of something that could be read--i.e., simple

substitutions like [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] for schwa, & for ash, etc.





 Here's a long answer to a simple question.[LONG ANSWER DELETED]



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:44:31 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



I think I misspelled Taliaferro. Wayne



 I'm not sure whether the eponymous gentleman was being forgotten or

 memorialized. I recall a former quarterback--he may have played for the

 Jets and/or the Patriots--whose name was spelled Taliaferro (like the county

 except for the double t) and pronounced in just that manner, as in Oliver.

 So we may not be dealing with perverse toponymy here but perverse onomastics,

 if that's the right technonym.

 --Larry

 ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

  In this vein, I've always regarded these idiosyncratic local pronunciations as

  our modern (modren?) shibboleths. One of my favorites is the suburb of

  Rochester spelled Chili and pronounced to rhyme with jai-alai.

  

                              LH

 

  From Wayne Glowka

 

 A colleague has just reminded me that Taliafero County (in Georgia

 somewhere along I-20) is pronounced [taliv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r] as a means of forgetting the

 jerk after whoM the county was named.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:30:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



Glad to see Rudy Troike bring up the old war-horse of bilingual reduplication.

(Please don't ask why linguists say 'reduplication' instead of 'duplicate' or

'replicate'!)

My favorite over the years has been the Hawaii toponym 'The Napali Cliffs'

which is 'The The Cliffs Cliffs.' This beats by one item all the well-known

'The El...' forms (E.g., 'The El Toro Motel'),and I have never heard any such

form as 'The El Rancho Ranch.'

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 07:58:40 PST

From:  Peter Benson  benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACDCA.ITT.COM 

Subject: Bilingually Redundant Place names



----- Begin Included Message -----

From: Rudy Troike  RTROIKE%ARIZVMS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject:   Re: Texas town names

    For you bilingualers, people out here in Arizona are into redundan-

cies: Picacho [big peak] Peak and Table Mesa [table].

    Rudy Troike





----- End Included Message -----



My friend, Curtis Booth, a linguist doing penance as a technical writer, pointed

out to me the redundancy in The La Brea Tar Pits which might be seen

as The The Tar Pits Tar Pits.



Peter Benson, Ph.D.       | ITT Aerospace/Communications Division

phone: (619)578-3080      | 10060 Carroll Canyon Road

fax:  (619)578-5371      | San Diego, CA 92131

email: benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acdca.itt.com or Peter_Benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUSM.edu or benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]escondido.csusm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 17:27:02 +0100

From:  Hans Vappula  guchw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GD.CHALMERS.SE 

Subject: Bilingual reduplication



 Glad to see Rudy Troike bring up the old war-horse of bilingual reduplication.

 (Please don't ask why linguists say 'reduplication' instead of 'duplicate' or

 'replicate'!)

 My favorite over the years has been the Hawaii toponym 'The Napali Cliffs'

 which is 'The The Cliffs Cliffs.' This beats by one item all the well-known

 'The El...' forms (E.g., 'The El Toro Motel'),and I have never heard any such

 form as 'The El Rancho Ranch.'

 Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet



How about Torpenhow Hill in Devon (or is it Cornwall?), England.



Tor (Cornish?)

Pen (Welsh)

How (Norse, compare Old Norse haugr, Morwegian haug)

Hill (English)



All meaning approximately "hill". Thus, Hillhillhill Hill.

//Hans

============================================================

Hans Vappula * guchw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gd.chalmers.se * hans.vappula[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gd.gu.se



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 17:43:51 +0100

From:  Jean LEDU  ledu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CASSIS-GW.UNIV-BREST.FR 

Subject: Re: Regional variation in BE



May I quote an example of triplication (!) in Brittany

with La colline du Mene Bre (French, Breton, Gaulish..).

There is also la Baie de Fundy in Canada (Fon de Baie).

Jean Le Du



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 17:46:10 +0100

From:  Jean LEDU  ledu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CASSIS-GW.UNIV-BREST.FR 

Subject: Re: Bilingual reduplication



Both tor and pen are cornish, or better brythonic.

Tor is belly, pen is head, both of course meaning

some sort of hill.

Jean Le Du



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:29:48 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Local pron. of toponyms



On Thu, 24 Feb 1994 15:36:09 --100, Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH  writes:



  But I bet you don't know - just to pick 2 examples at random just down the

  road from me in Norwich:

     Wymondham /wind[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m/

     Happisburgh /heizbr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/

  ...

  P.J. Trudgill

  ...

  University of Lausanne

  CH-1015 Lausanne

  Switzerland



I don't know -- by now, I ought to be used to the disparity between

email address and physical location -- but there's something dissonant

to me about Norwich being "just down the road" from Lausanne... that

road must include the Chunnel



 :-) :-) :-)



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine   BITNet: DBSHAPIR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCI



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 09:52:39 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



On Thu, 24 Feb 1994 10:27:04 EST, Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU  writes:



  Since I just succeeded in getting into this group about twenty-four hours

  ago, I am ignorant of practice and protocol, but I have noticed a problem

  with transcription of ash, schwa, etc. Has anyone established a handy set

  of qwerty phonetic/phonemic symbols for general use?



I've included some replies to this question from times past (back when

the sci.lang newsgroup could actually be used :-) Back then, Klatt's

system was leading the pack; the references to other systems may be

of greater interest today.



------- Forwarded Messages



From: zacharsk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.umn.edu (Ronald Zacharski)

Newsgroups: sci.lang

Subject: Re: ASCII Version of IPA???

Message-ID:  1990Aug10.184647.22476[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.umn.edu 

Date: 10 Aug 90 18:46:47 GMT

Organization: University of Minnesota, Minneapolis - CSCI Dept.





Klatt, Dennis H. Review of text-to-speech conversion for English.

 J.Acoust.Soc.Am 82(3):737-793.



describes 2 transcription systems. One is case insensitive and requires

one or two characters per symbol. Klatt states this system is

"nearly identical to ARPAbet" The other system is a case sensitive one

character system.



Here's the chart from that article.



  system

2 ch  1 ch  example

- ----------------------

 IY   i    beet

 IH   I    bit

 EY   e    bait

 EH   E    bet

 AE   [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]    bat

 AA   a    pot

 AO   c    bought

 AH   ^    but

 OW   o    boat

 UH   U    book

 UW   u    boot

 RR   r    Bert

 AY   A    bite

 OY   O    boy

 AW   W    bout

 YU   Y    Butte

 AX   x    about

 IX   |    nieces

 P   p    pet

 B   b    bet

 T   t    tet

 D   d    debt

 K   k    kit

 G   g    get

 CH   C    Chet

 JH   J    jet

 M   m    met

 N   n    net

 NX   G    sang

 F   f    fed

 V   v    vet

 TH   t    thin

 DH   D    this

 S   s    set

 Z   z    zero

 SH   S    shed

 ZH   Z    azure

 W   w    wet

 YX   y    yet

 R   r    red

 L   l    let

 HX   h    head

 EN   N    button

 EL   L    bottle

 _   _    silence "phoneme" "





Ron Zacharski

University of Minnesota





------- Message 2



From: zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pterodactyl.itstd.sri.com

Newsgroups: sci.lang

Subject: IPA and ASCII

Message-ID:  32551[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sparkyfs.istc.sri.com 

Date: 10 Aug 90 18:46:40 GMT

Organization: SRI International, Menlo Park, CA 94025





This seems to be a question I've adopted...



Actual IPA-ASCII mapping standards don't exist, partly because ASCII

doesn't have enough bits in it, unless you use digraphs for what

are single characters in IPA. However, there is an existing standard

for the ASCII transliteration of *phonemic* transcription of

*English*, using one character per phoneme. (In a discussion one day

about least job-relevant skills, I concluded that one of mine was the

ability to transcribe into Klattese at my normal typing speed for

English. This, along with the ability to tell you whether or not a

piece of Code 39 barcode met the military spec, and if not why not,

using a specially printed version of a jeweler's loupe, has atrophied

over the years for obvious reasons.)



a = the vowel in cot

c = the vowel in caught

[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = the vowel in cat

e = the vowel in Kate

E = the vowel in pet

i = the vowel in Pete

I = the vowel in kit

o = the vowel in coat

u = the vowel in coot

U = the vowel in put

^ = the vowel in cut

x = schwa



b = the initial consonant in bat

d = the initial consonant in date

C = the initial consonant in chat

D = the initial consonant in that

f = the initial consonant in fat

g = the initial consonant in gate

h = the initial consonant in hat

j = the initial consonant in jilt

k = the initial consonant in cat

l = the initial consonant in late

m = the initial consonant in mat

n = the initial consonant in Nate

N = the final consonant in king

p = the initial consonant in pat

r = the initial consonant in rat

s = the initial consonant in sat

S = the initial consonant in, umm, shape

t = the initial consonant in tat

T = the initial consonant in thick

v = the initial consonant in vat

w = the initial consonant in wet

y = the initial consonant in yak

z = the initial consonant in Zach

Z = the medial consonant in leisure



DUs, DIs Iz taipd in kl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tiz, alDo nat [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t Enihwer nir Dx spid D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t ai

yUzd tu bi aibxl tu aten, [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nd kwait pasIbli wiT Ercrz In Dx

tr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nskripSxn (xb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ut hwIC ai du nat wiS tu bi Infcrmd). [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nd yEs, ai du

rili tck laik DIs, haipxrkcrEkt Do It mei bi.



One of the chief joys of knowing Klattese is that with only a few

logical additions, one can pronounce most erratically capitalized

words. (I assume, for instance, that X is a voiceless velar

fricative). NeXT comes out very satisfactorily, although NeWS doesn't,

really.



    Elizabeth





------- Message 3



From: jackson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jabberwock.shs.ohio-state.edu (Michel Jackson)

Newsgroups: sci.lang

Subject: Re: Does an ASCII version of the IPA exist?

Summary: no such thing exists

Message-ID:  312[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jabberwock.shs.ohio-state.edu 

Date: 25 Feb 91 20:27:26 GMT

Organization: The Ohio State University, Division of Speech and Hearing Science





You have several choices:

(i) IPA. 1989.

"The IPA 1989 Kiel Convention Workgroup 9 report: Computer coding of

IPA symbols and computer representations of individual languages",

Journal of the International Phonetic Association v 19, n 2, pp 81-82.



(ii) Recommended by the IPA:

LaserIPA macintosh font from

Linguist's Software,

Box 580

Edmonds WA 98020-0580



(iii) Pullum, G. L. & Ladusaw, W. A. 1987. _Phonetic Symbol Guide_.

Chiicago: University of Chicago Press.



(iv) (Englsih only)

the "ARPABET". see, e.g.,

Klatt, D. H. 1987. "Review of text-to-speech conversion for English",

J. Acoustical Society America v. 82 n. 3, p. 737-793. See esp. p.

767-769.



    ---michel (jackson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]speech.mit.edu, jackson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]shs.ohio-state.edu)





------- Message 4



From: ederveen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pttrnl.nl

Newsgroups: sci.lang

Subject: Re: Does an ASCII version of the IPA exist?

Summary: COST-CPA: ASCII version of IPA

Keywords: IPA, CPA

Message-ID:  1991Feb25.140631.65002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pttrnl.nl 

Date: 25 Feb 91 13:06:31 GMT





In article  4862[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mindlink.UUCP , Joel_Murray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mindlink.UUCP (Joel Murray) writes:



  If an ASCII version of the IPA does exist could someone please e-mail the file

  to me?



There are several proposals for an ASCII version of the IPA.

One of them is COST-CPA, as described in report EUR 12023 EN,

European Research Project COST 209,

Man-Machine Communication by Means of Speech Signals,

page 236, by P. Molbaek-Hansen



groeten / salutojn,

Derk Ederveen

- -------------

Kath. Universiteit, Nijmegen / PTT Research NT-TWS, Leidschendam  - -  NL

ederveen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lett.kun.nl       D_Ederveen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pttrnl.nl  tel. +31/0 70 3323202

kunlt1::ederveen         dnlts::ederveen    ederveen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hlsdnl5.bitnet

** esperanto(Lingvo) :- neuxtrala(Lingvo), internacia(Lingvo), dua(Lingvo). **





------- End of Forwarded Messages



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine   BITNet: DBSHAPIR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCI



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:10:10 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston/Place Names/Ads for Fun. Homes



O God, more on Buena Vista as [bju:n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]+vIst[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]: there is an elderly lady in

Milledgeville who is named this and called this--she is [byun[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] for short.



In Newtown Square, PA, there used to be a funeral home called Dill Funeral

Home, a reference I hope not to the pickling that occurs there.



Doublets of Doublets: a new restaurant in Milledgeville is calling itself

"Brewers, A Coffee Cafe"--as opposed to something like "Del Taco, A Mexican

Cafe"--where I would never have dared to order a cup of coffee.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 10:43:23 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



On Thu, 24 Feb 1994 12:59, Dan Brink writes:



  ... Of course, current

  7-bit E-mail can't handle UNICODE (although it *could* with

  with some sort of mail agent client which could shift from UNICODE

  to 7-bit.



Current email *can* support various character sets, when it supports

the recent MIME email standard. If you don't have MIME-compatible

mail readers at your site, pester your Postmaster :-)



(I won't go into this in depth, but basically MIME provides, among

other things, a structured way to indicate what character set is used

in a message. Even better, it allows you to structure your message

into multiple parts, and allows multiple character sets to be used in

different parts of a message. Thus, I could provide two different

versions of my message, one in UNICODE and the other in a pure-ASCII

approximation. When you read my message, your mail reader would take

the chunk that was in UNICODE and crank up a UNICODE-savvy program to

display it. If you did not have such a program on your system, your

mail reader would skip the UNICODE version and display the plain

ASCII.



Any drawbacks? Composing a message is a little more involved,

particularly when you want to provide alternatives as described

above; and MIME messages can look kind of messy to people without

MIME-compliant readers. Worth it? I think so, especially for folks

like us who chafe under the constraints of seven-bit ASCII

characters.)



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine   BITNet: DBSHAPIR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCI



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 13:11:25 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Phonetic/Phonemic E-Mail Alphabet



  But, Bill, I was thinking of something that could be read--i.e., simple

  substitutions like [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] for schwa, & for ash, etc.



I've had copies of the set of substitutions used in phonetic discussions

on sci.lang (on usenet) but am not sure I have a copy online right now.

Some people seem to think that these symbols are universally known and

used on the net. Our discussion right now is a pretty good indication

that that's not the case.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:08:43 EST

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bilingually Redundant Place names



 



  Subject:   Re: Texas town names

      For you bilingualers, people out here in Arizona are into redundan-

  cies: Picacho [big peak] Peak and Table Mesa [table].

      Rudy Troike

 

 

 

  My friend, Curtis Booth, a linguist doing penance as a technical writer, pointed

  out to me the redundancy in The La Brea Tar Pits which might be seen

  as The The Tar Pits Tar Pits.

 



 To the list we can add, if memory serves me correctly, DRY BRANCH CREEK

somewheres in mid missouri. Properly, bidialectal, not bilingual,

unless you want to say southern branch speakers (and drinkers) speak

a different language.



Terry Irons



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 15:06:47 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT '94 Preconference Tutorials



              PRECONFERENCE TUTORIALS

                March 13, 1994

Georgetown University Round Table on Languages and Linguistics 1994



The preconference tutorials will be held in the Intercultural Center

of Georgetown University on Sunday, March 13. Tuition is $75.00 per

tutorial. Please contact the individual organizers for more information.



Concordances and Corpora for Classroom and Research

Catherine Ball, Ph.D., Department of Linguistics, Georgetown University

Washington, D.C. 20057-1068, 202/687-5812 or cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

  In this tutorial, we will survey free and commercial sources for electronic

text corpora and will provide a critical review of concordancers as tools for

discovering facts about language. The tutorial will include a demonstration

of a popular scanner (HP and OCR package for creating electronic text, and we

will use Internet resources to find and retrieve free texts in various

languages. Participants will be introduced to a suite of concordancers.

There will be opportunity for hands-on use of our textual resources on both

Macs and PCs, including the above-mentioned concordancers, major text corpora

and collections, and several on-line dictionaries and encyclopedias on

CD-ROM. Participants will receive a copy of the tutorial notes (including

fact sheets for each area covered), and those who bring diskettes may take

away copies of the freeware. Enrollment is limited to 15 participants.



Criterion-Referenced Curriculum and Test Development

for Language Teachers and Administrators, Jeff Connor-Linton, Ph.D.

Department of Linguistics, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-6156 or connorlinton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

  This workshop is intended for second and foreign language teachers and

administrators at all levels of education. A model process for "bottom-up"

teacher development of a proficiency-oriented, criterion-referenced second/

foreign language curriculum and testing program will be described. The

development process is designed to enhance articulation and coherence between

levels of instruction and to foster communicating teaching practices.



Tools for Computer-Aided Analysis of Language Acquisition Data:

Training in Use of COALA, Catherine Doughty, Ph.D.

Department of Linguistics, Georgetown University, Washington, D.C. 20057-1068

202/687-6252 or doughtyc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

  The purpose of this tutorial is to introduce participants to a soon-to-be-

released software package designed for the automated analysis of language

acquisition data. COALA (computer-aided linguistic analysis; Pienemann,

Jansen, and Thornton 1992) is essentially a relational database with an

interface offering the language analyst a transcription aid, coding tools,

analysis tools (formulaic searching), and report generation.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:19:11 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



And there's a Cairo [keyro] and a Milan [maIl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n] within forty miles of

each other, either side of the Hudson in NY.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:56:34 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju] in Houston/Place Names/Ads for Fun. Homes



my favorite triplet:

a New York political figure of the 1950s:

Peter Kaminstein

=stone stone stone.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:57:45 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  8940 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------- Message in error (41 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:46:37 +0500 (EST)

  From: Robert Howren  howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu 

  Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations

 

  On Thu, 24 Feb 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote:

 

    And then there are the interesting variations on Lafayette, including

    laFAYette County, Mississippi.

   

     --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

      who stayed in the [bjun[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] vIst[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] Hotel in Biloxi long before

      hearing the [bwE...] version of the word

 

  There's also l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FAYette, Georgia, and LAEfayette, Indiana.

  --Bob

     =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

     Robert Howren          Dept. of Linguistics

     howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu    University of North Carolina

                      Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155

     -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 19:45:41 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling-2  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: [u]/[ju]



I am a /uw/ speaker with a notable exception. I say [kjupan] with the stress

on the 2nd syllable. I had mentioned this to Natalie and she has nevr

heard it. I honestly don't know whether this is typical of my home-

dialect. Does anyone else out there put stress on the 2nd syllable or

have you heard it?

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 25 Feb 1994 21:21:16 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



On Thu, 24 Feb 1994, Patricia Willis wrote:



  Endless Americanization of French Midwestern place names:

   Des Plaines, Illinois = dess planes

   Joliet, Illinois = jolly-ette

   Momence, Illinois = mo-me'n-cee

 

Yes, and Versailles, Ill.: ver-sales

Bourbonnais, Ill.: [b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r bon'is]

San Jose, Ill.: [saen' djoz], with a diacritic over the j

Cuba, Ill. [kyubi]

Prairie Du Rocher, Ill: prairie doo rosher (I give up on IPA)



We have a helluva lot of French plance names; i bet if you looked at al

the USGS maps you could fill a book. Hmmmm.. . .. ..



Tim F



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Feb 1994 to 25 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 17 messages totalling 417 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Texas town names

 2.  No subject given 

 3. Bilingual reduplication

 4. Local pron. of toponyms

 5. local locality pronunciations (3)

 6. LANGUAGE e-mail (2)

 7. Something old, something new (3)

 8. ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1994 to 24 Feb 1994

 9. New List on Teaching History of English

 10. Variation in S. Georgia(Waycross)

 11. attitude & prescription

 12. there's



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 00:22:43 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



Toponymists who'velooked at old records tell us that for a time the U.S.

Post Office insisted on short names for new post offices, so there are

several 3-letter towns in Missouri -- Ink, Rat....

About 60 miles west of St Louis a church was named for some Christian

martyrs who were killed in Japan -- The Church of the Holy Martyrs of Japan

(or something like that; I could look it up if anyone needs exact info).

In the 1940s someone put together apronouncing guide for Missouri towns and

listed[jeyp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n] as the way the locals said the name of their town.

                        DMLance, U of MO



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 01:01:25 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject:  No subject given 



From:  UACCIT::SEISNER   "Sigmund Eisner" 25-FEB-1994 15:27

To:   UACCIT::RTROIKE

CC:   SEISNER

Subj:  RE: Bilingual reduplication



If we're going to talk about such duplications as "The Napali Cliffs" in

Hawaii, what about "The Los Altos Hills" near Palo Alto, California?



                Sig



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 13:45:27 --100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Bilingual reduplication



    And then of course there are all the River Avons

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 13:47:30 --100

From:  Peter Trudgill  PeterJohn.Trudgill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANGL.UNIL.CH 

Subject: Re: Local pron. of toponyms



    What you don't know is that there are two mes - one lives in

Norwich at the weekends and the other works in Lausanne during the week.

Peter Trudgill





P.J. Trudgill

Professor of English Language and Linguistics

Section d'anglais

BFSH 2

University of Lausanne

CH-1015 Lausanne

Switzerland



Phone:          +41-21-692 4593  Fax: +41-21-692 4637/4510

Home Phone and Fax (CH): +41-21-728 1916

Home Phone and Fax (GB): +44-603-618036



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 07:12:43 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



I went to bed last nite and forgot this one:



Gratiot, Wisconsin, locally = gra'chit



Of course, my home state has an initial /E/ for most of us, except for

opera singers hired to perform the state song who pronounce it with

an /I/. Some of us still give it a final /z/.



Near where I live is Bushnell. Locally the /U/ gets extremely tensed or

fronted. We also have a Sciota, named after Scioto River, Ohio, but for

once the schwa got into the spelling of the Illinois version.



Oh yeah, I had a speech teacher who insisted on Illinois with /I/.

That reminds me, has anyone ever had the experience of being in a church

or school choir and had some choir director who insists on weird

pronunciations, like aspirating final /t/?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 07:26:39 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: LANGUAGE e-mail



Anyone have the e-mail address (or phone number, even better) of the

editorial office of LANUAGE (U of Pittsburgh). I can't find the stationery.



That last posting about /I/linois was mine; I think I forgot to sign it.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 08:21:17 +0500

From:  Robert Howren  howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



On Wed, 23 Feb 1994, Martha Howard wrote:

  In re Wayne Glowka's surprise at the pronunciation of Buena Vista, I

  have learned here in West Virginia to listen to how a native says an

  area or town name before I venture to doit. Example (read [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] as schwa)

  Kanawha is k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]na and Pisgah is pizgee.

------------------

My Kanawha County wife, by dint of repeated effort, finally got me to

reduce "Kanawha" to two syllables, but insists on a slightly lengthened

and half-rounded final vowel--[k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nA:].

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Robert Howren          Dept. of Linguistics

    howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu    University of North Carolina

                    Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 08:46:59 +0500

From:  Robert Howren  howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: local locality pronunciations



On Thu, 24 Feb 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote:

 

  And then there are the interesting variations on Lafayette, including

  laFAYette County . . .

 

---------------------

There's also l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FAYette, Georgia, and I seem to recall LEYfayette, Indiana,

if memory serves correctly after many years. --Bob

    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Robert Howren          Dept. of Linguistics

    howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu    University of North Carolina

                    Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 09:04:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: Something old, something new



First some comments on old threads:



On [kupan] vs [kjupan]: I missed the beginning of this thread, but

various people have been referring to it as a case of j-dropping (or

cluster simplification). Did I miss an explanation for considering

[kjupan] the older form? In any case, I remember being told in my

teenage years, in the '50s, that [kupan] was the "correct" alternate,

with [kjupan] a vulgar hypercorrection. My 1957 Webster's New World

Dictionary lists both pronunciations, with [kupan] first.



On place names: Illinois is truly a gold mine for mispronounced

foreign names, not all of which are French. Chicago has a Goethe

Street pronounced ['gothi] and a Mozart Street pronounced ['mozart].

Even better, when I was a cab driver there 20 years ago, the

dispatchers routinely referred to Buena Street as [bu'wana] (accent on

the second syllable) -- although since the dispatchers were all black,

this may have been an in-joke. Devon Avenue is normally pronounced

with the accent on the second syllable, and Chicago gets its weather

from a radar station in [mar'selz] (Marseilles). There are also two

pronunciations that might serve as local shibboleths: Loyola

University is [la'yol[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]], not [lo'yol[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] (someone also mentioned Joliet

[jali'et]), and, of course, Chicago is [SI'kOgo] or [SI'kOg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] instead

of [SI'kago].



On various regional pronunciations: It's interesting that northern

Georgia keeps [hw] and [w] apart, because where I am, in southeast

Georgia (Waycross), they are completely merged. I get spelling errors

in student compositions like weather for whether and even where for

were. Locals insist that they have different vowels in news and noose,

although both are so fronted that I have trouble hearing the

difference. I suspect that noose is [nyws], with a front rounded

nucleus, and news is [niwz], with a less rounded vowel, but I'm not

sure. Also, I get due to spelled do to, but it could be that due to

is a foreign import, heard mainly from TV announcers with Midwestern

accents. Along this line also, I get whether spelled as rather! Both

of these words may also be foreign to the area.



And now for something somewhat different.



I've noticed that both in North Florida (Gainesville area) and in this

part of Georgia there seem to be two distinct accents among life-long

white natives.



The first accent is distinctly Southern. Stressed vowels are

lengthened, but the stress itself is not very strong, yielding the

typical Southern drawl. The tense vowels /i/, /e/, /o/, and /u/ are

all strongly diphthongized, producing something like [Ej], [Aj], [Ew],

and [iw], where [A] is aesc. The lax vowels /I/ and /E/ are often

diphthongized into [i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] and [e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. The vowels in ride and write are

[A:] and [A:j] in Georgia, but generally a little further back, [a:]

and [a:j] in Florida. Most speakers tend to speak toward the low end

of their vocal range, although women seem to have two registers: a low

tone for normal conversations, and a much higher tone for certain

formal situations, like asking directions, speaking on the phone to

strangers, etc. Voice quality seems to be nasal to neutral in men,

neutral to husky in women.



The second accent sounds much more Southern Midland. Word stress is

very strong, resulting in a pogo-stick rhythm to the speech. Vowels

are short and crisp, with only mild fronting of /u/ and /o/ and no

diphthongization of /i/ and /e/, or of the lax vowels. Ride and write

both have [A], with no noticeable lengthening other than what is

normal before a voiced consonant, and I'm not sure they are

consistently distinct from rad and rat. Both men and women tend to

speak in a fairly high, nasal tone of voice.



The existence of these two accents suggests that people from Appalachia

moved into this area at some time and maintained their accents. But I

haven't been able to confirm this from any speakers of the second

accent; no one that I've asked knew anything about having ancestors

from North Georgia or Tennessee or anywhere else up there. Even

stranger, there seems to be no consistent social stratification

between the two accents, and speakers of both accents seem to be

completely unaware of the presence of the other.



So how are the accents maintained? Who do children identify with to

learn them? Why aren't they leveled out among children from both

groups growing up together?



Can anyone here give me a clue?



David Johns

Waycross College

Waycross, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:35:32 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1994 to 24 Feb 1994



Small town in southwestern Wisconsin: Muskoda m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s-k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-DE (ryhmes

with way, d with a flap.)

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:00:07 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Something old, something new



To: David Johns

    Thanks for the very interesting information. Coastal Georgia should

have a schwa-onset in  write , as exemplified in one of my colleagues from

Savannah. Without a map, I'm not sure how far inland Waycross is, but it is

interesting that the distinction in the /ay/ nucleus is maintained without

the schwa-quality (i.e., before vl. consonants, vs the monophthongization

before voiced or no consonant).

    On the two co-occurring varieties, I found in East Texas that there

were still echoes of the ante-bellum social separation among whites, but the

old upper-class pronunciation was being rapidly overwhelmed. What mattered

was not current wealth, but pre-war status. The South has long recognized

the condition of "genteel poverty", so current income is not what counts/ed.

It might be worth looking into this variable, but I suspect you could make

a tremendous contribution by an in-depth ethnographic study in the community,

including looking at social groupings in school. We really need some close

studies like that. Also, you might well need to look into the historical

census records to find out about the settlement history of particular

families. It sounds like a fascinating and exciting situation.

    It was also interesting to get the information on /hw/:/w/. The loss

of this contrast is one of the major changes of this century, but we have

unfortunately not taken the opportunity to systematically document the spread

of the loss. This might be a worthwhile project to undertake on a national

network scale, sampling across age and social groups througout the country.

There should be good baseline information in all the regional atlases and DARE,

but a unified study or linked series of surveys is needed. In Texas in the

1960s, I found the loss of /h/ among college-age students had reached about

50%, but only about 10% of students at the U of Arizona have it (though they

are not representative of Arizona, by any means). By the time the loss is

complete, linguists in the next century will wish we had done more to catch

it and document it in progress.

    Rudy Troike

    rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 12:10:31 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: New List on Teaching History of English



A colleague of mine, Carl Berkhout, has just informed me that a new list

has been set up by Dan Mosser at Virginia Tech on the teaching of the history

of the English language. In case anyone wants to subscribe, the address is

    listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu



To subscribe, address a mail message to the above, leave the subject line

blank, and type as the only line in your message:



    subscribe hel-l Mary Doe (your name instead!)



You can unsubscribe whenever you wish.

    Rudy Troike



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 15:20:41 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Variation in S. Georgia(Waycross)



On the variation between so. and s. midl. in Waycross, see Grodon Wood's

"Dialect Contours in the Southern States," AS 38.243-56 (1963), repritned

in Allen & Underwood, READINGS IN AMERICAN DIALECTOLOGY, Appleton-Century-

Crofts, 1972 (p 122 ff). Wood examines vocabulary evidence of so midl.

migration through the deep South, including s. Georgia.



We used to get off the interstate and hit Waycross on the way from

Atlanta to Jax, and i always wanted to stop there, but we always had

screaming kids in the back.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 14:53:25 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: LANGUAGE e-mail



In Message Sat, 26 Feb 1994 07:26:39 -0600, mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uxa.ecn.bgu.edu writes:



 Anyone have the e-mail address (or phone number, even better) of the

 editorial office of LANUAGE (U of Pittsburgh). I can't find the stationery.

 

 That last posting about /I/linois was mine; I think I forgot to sign it.

 

 Tim Frazer



Telephone: 412-624-1354

e-mail: sgt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]a.nl.cs.cmu.edu

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 19:04:12 EST

From:  "Nancy C. Elliott"  ELLIOTTN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: attitude & prescription



Last night on MTV I heard the famous commentators on modern society,

Beavis & Butthead, comment that England was the place 'where everyone talks

like a wuss.'



Also on the subject of prescriptivist vocal coaches and choir directors,

there are too many horror stories for me to tell, Tim Fraser!



ELLIOTTN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucs.indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 19:25:24 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Something old, something new



In the G&C Merriam 1928 unabridged, 'coupon' is listed with two pronunciations:

'koo pon (with macron over the oo and breve over o):['ku p[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n]

'koo "pon (with macron over oo and circumflex over o; ' = secondary stress

  and " = primary stress): [ku 'pan]



In the 1875 edition of Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English

Language, the word is italicized, indicating that it is a "foreign word"

The following pronunciation:

'koo pong (with macron over oo and breve over o, and no the -ng is not one

  of my ubiquitous typos): presumably ['ku p[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ng]



In 1875 the word referred to a certificate indicating the terms of interest

due on a bond, with terms and time schedule indicated.



In 1928 a second meaning had been added: a section of a ticket (train, theater,

etc) indicating that the holder is entitled to certain accommodations or

service.



So, David Johns's critics were right in claiming that he was participating

in fangling a word in a new way.



Fifteen years or so ago, Tom Murray found some manglings of French street names

in St. Louis that beat what Chicago has to offer. Faliase Street was known

by neighborhood residents as Falsies Street. There were other good ones.

                  DMLance, Univ of Missouri



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 23:15:38 -0400

From:  tthonus  tthonus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: there's



I've been intrigued recently by the use of singular (?) there's in

plural contexts, i.e. "There's the books I've been looking for," or

"There's two ways to solve that problem," in unmonitored speech. Has

anyone noticed it, or better yet, studied and written on it? I'd be

interested in learning.

Terese Thonus

Indiana University



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Feb 1994 to 26 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 261 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Unpredictable British local pronunciations (2)

 2. "Shut on the water"

 3. attitude & prescription

 4. Webster's NG in coupon

 5. Prescriptivist horror stories

 6. "Fall" as transitive verb

 7. there's (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 23:00:20 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Unpredictable British local pronunciations



   24-FEB-1994

The following e-note was sent to me by my Middle English colleague Roger

Dahood after I shared with him some of the ADS-L postings. Maybe Peter

"Chunnel" Trudgill will have some comment on its validity.





I long ago gave up on trying to guess how the British pronounce proper

names. The more time I spend in England and Scotland, the more I become

aware that much of the time the natives themselves haven't a clue. I

suspect that apart from a few examples widely known among the British as

especially amusing (such as those P.T.'s latest supplies), most of his

countrymen guess when they stray far from home. My London friends are often

surprisingly candid about their ignorance of local pronuncciations. And I

am told, incoming undergraduates at Oxford often need instruction about the

pronuciation of the river name Cherwell, where the _er_ = /ar/.



Now when anyone tells me that the English pronounce a name such and so, I

find myself replying, "Which Englishmen?" P. G. Wodehouse (and how do you

pronounce that?) spoofed the whole business in one of his stories. A host

greets a party guest and then says, "Have you met Mum?" The guest looks

around for an LOL in puzzlement and embarrassed confusion, when the host

points to tall, good-looking young man. "That's Mum over there. He spells

it Mapledurham but pronounces it Mum."



R.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 26 Feb 1994 23:07:21 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: "Shut on the water"



ADS-Lers:

    One of my colleagues recently sent me the following query. He

grew up in San Francisco, I believe. Has anyone else encountered it?

    Rudy Troike





Date: Wed, 23 Feb 1994 08:14:55 -0700 (MST)

From: Sigmund Eisner  SEISNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU

To: rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU





     Did you, by the way, ever hear the expression "shut on the

water"? That's what the kids used to say in my growing-up neighborhood. I

suppose if they could shut it off, they could shut it on.



                Sig



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 06:47:19 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Unpredictable British local pronunciations



All the talk of British pronunciation reminds me of an "I Love Lucy"

episode of 40 years ago (!). Lucy, Ricky, Fred & Ethel decide to visit

Europe.

Their first stop is in London. They walk down a street needing directions

and Lucy says "O boy, aren't we lucky we're in a country where they speak

English!" She stops a guy in a bowler and asks for help. And of course,

the man is very nice, but what comes out is completely incomprehensible.



Tin Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 06:52:55 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: attitude & prescription



On Sat, 26 Feb 1994, Nancy C. Elliott wrote:



 

  Also on the subject of prescriptivist vocal coaches and choir directors,

  there are too many horror stories for me to tell, Tim Fraser!

 

Nancy, somebody should collect all those horror stories; it'd make a

great paper! By the way, when the baseball season starts and all of you

folks tune in the Cubbies on your superstation, listen to the people who

sing the Star Spangled /banr/ (or ban[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]) about the /land/ (not /laend/)

of the free, etc. Do vocal coaches still use the NBC HANDBOOK from 40

years ago? It's the way a lot of people in the movies used to talk before

WWII (Kate Hepburn still does). It's not Brit either, cause they say

/houm/ (almost /hum/) of the brave, not /hEum/. You can find old test

books from the 30s that teach this.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 10:21:04 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Webster's NG in coupon



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 27-Feb-1994 10:20am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Webster's NG in coupon





To add to the discussion of Don Lance's in which he cites Webster 1875 with a

spelling of NG for coupon: there are a number of family names in this part of

the Ohio Valley--Athens Co. is adjacent to Gallia Co.; nearby Marietta OH in

Washington Co. is named for Marie Antoinette--with NG spelling for the

nasalization of the preceding vowel, e.g. DISHONG is a very popular local name;

I suspect it comes from Dijon.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU









Received: 27-Feb-1994 10:20am



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 11:45:28 -0500

From:  Martha Howard  UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU 

Subject: Prescriptivist horror stories



Can you believe that in the early 1930's when I was in fourth grade, I had

a home economics (called cooking then) teacher who insisted that we prepare

a daily ( I am going to use eye dialect --given up on transcribing phonetically

 e mail) maynew? I still hate that word and I'm not really sure about cooking.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 11:36:30 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: "Fall" as transitive verb



The following is from my Chaucerian colleague, Sig Eisner. The topic may

be an old one on ADS-L. If so, pardon the redundancy.



From:  IN%"SEISNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU" "Sigmund Eisner" 27-FEB-1994 09:3



Good morning, Rudy:

    I suspect you will not find much, if anything, on "shut on the

water." It was said by a few fairly uneducated children within my

awareness radius when I was about ten and growing up some 30 miles south of

San Francisco. The reason I remember it is that I brought it home to my

own family and they roared with laughter. In fact it was a family joke for

years after I outgrew the tribe that initiated it. Still, if you do find

something, do let me know.



    One other that I found very interesting is the Oregonism "to fall

trees." The word "fell" is hardly ever used in the Oregon lumber area.

Furthermore, the person who cuts down the tree is called "the faller."

Once when I was expounding on this localism to a class at Oregon State, a

hefty fullback in the back row asked me if I would call the tree cutter "a

feller." Then he gave forth with a laugh that rattled the classroom windows

and slapped his own leg with a crack that shook the floor. That afternoon

I went to what library resources we had and discovered that they still fall

trees in some parts of Minnesota and also in what forests are left in

England. Since I use "fall" and "fell" when I explain the mysterious

distinction between "lie" and "lay" (that is mysterious to anyone who

wanders into my current classrooms), I've always been interested in that

particular item. The replacement of a strong for its weak verb parallel

or vice versa must be more widespread that just "lie" and "fall." Do you

know of any others?

            Sig



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:20:32 EST

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: there's



 

  I've been intrigued recently by the use of singular (?) there's in

  plural contexts, i.e. "There's the books I've been looking for," or

  "There's two ways to solve that problem," in unmonitored speech. Has

  anyone noticed it, or better yet, studied and written on it? I'd be

  interested in learning.

  Terese Thonus

  Indiana University

 



I am currently doing a descriptive study of special cases of agreement

marking using a forced choice test. The results suggest that

agreement is inherently variable in english, which makes it

either a defective node (similar to that deletion in relative

clauses) or a style rule. Am presenting paper on topic this week.



To the point of your query, I used to There _____ items in

my test (which actually originates from Don Lance a few years

back).

    a. There _____ two boys and a girl in the room.

    b. There _____ a girl and two boys looking for you.



Responses to a. are categorially plural. With b., however,

61% of informants select the singular There's/There is form.



One is tempted to conclude that there really is no such

thing as s-v # agreement in core grammar of english. There

are (!) no number realizations for past tense nor for future

time expressions using will. The only remnant is -s on

third person present singular and some idiosyncratic

auxiliaries. No such marking shows up on modal forms, what

remains of subjunctive mood, or in complement constructions

such as I saw him leave, etc.



I am interested in hearing about any quantitative

descriptive studies myself.



Terry Irons



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:44:39 -0500

From:  Cathy Ball  CBALL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: there's



Terese Thonus writes

  I've been intrigued recently by the use of singular (?) there's in

  plural contexts, i.e. "There's the books I've been looking for," or

  "There's two ways to solve that problem," in unmonitored speech.



Harris & Vincent did a squib on this in _Linguistic Inquiry_ 11.4 (1980),

in which they claim that 'there's' might be analyzed as an existential

particle, particularly in cases with a zero relative, e.g.

'There's a woman wants to see you'. See also Breivik 1981 in _Language_ 57.

I have a brief discussion of these in my dissertation, where I note that

zero relatives in clefts and existentials have been attested since Middle

English, where a particle analysis doesn't seem to be supported. I think

the modern singular copula is related to an increasing tendancy for

agreement in terms of the NP to the left in surface structure. Some related

phenomena might be (a) proximity concord and (b) agreement in some preposings,

which unfortunately I can't remember any examples of off-hand!



 -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 27 Feb 1994 15:06:01 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET 

Subject: Re: there's



To some extent,  there  has taken over some of the territory of

expletive  it  as used in early Modern English. One of my favorite bits

of evidence for this "relexification" was a comment by a "man-in-the

street" in London interviewed while Americans were on the moon, who

after decrying the cost, was asked if he cared about the success of the

mission, and replied, "Of course. There's people up there, isn't it?"

    Rudy Troike

    rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Feb 1994 to 27 Feb 1994

************************************************







There are 17 messages totalling 294 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. there's (5)

 2. "Fall" as transitive verb (2)

 3. Texas town names

 4.  No subject given 

 5. Prescriptivist horror stories

 6. Removing myself from this service (2)

 7. Strange symbols

 8. attitude & prescription

 9. [El[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nojz] (2)

 10. Spanish dialectologist consultant needed ASAP !!



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 00:21:54 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: Re: there's



I've been paying attention to this trent for several years--have heard plural

_there's_ in prepared speech [tv newscasts--"there's many reasons..."], in

newspapers [Chicago Tribune], magazines [Newsweek, Time], as well as conversation. My own opinion is that its contractive nature is being lost at the "deep

structure level" [whatever that may be], and it's become an inveterate expleteive. GPulliam HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 02:14:37 -0600

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: "Fall" as transitive verb



When my grand daughter was about 2 or 3 she used to say "don't fall me down."



(Now she's 4 1/2 and just woke us up an hour ago! Its worth it.)



Tim F



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:40:11 +0100

From:  Jean LEDU  ledu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CASSIS-GW.UNIV-BREST.FR 

Subject: Re: there's



There's a lot of .., there's many.. is quite

common in Ireland.

Jean Le  Du



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:00:54 -0400

From:  tthonus  tthonus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: there's



Terry Iron's test of agreement with the existential is enlightening,

though I presume it is a pencil-and-paper task, that is, written. Has

anyone collected instances of lack of concord in spoken English?

Terese Thonus



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 07:53:37 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Texas town names



 I'm surprised no one has mentioned one of the most famous (and my favorite)

 Texas town name: Dime Box, and even better, there's Old Dime Box. Seems there

 was a box people would put a letter and a dime in for anyone abouts who was

 going into the nearest town that had a postoffice to carry the letter to and

 mail it for them. See Fred Tarpley, East Texas Place Names if you don't

 believe me.

     For you bilingualers, people out here in Arizona are into redundan-

 cies: Picacho [big peak] Peak and Table Mesa [table].

     Rudy Troike





Thus Willis Allen Ramsey's--



    South of Amarillo and east of Old Dime Box

    You can find you a Cinderella or a genuine Goldilocks

    And if you don't like love attachments

    And your taste in women is strange,

    Go on spend your money my friends

    Down in old La Grange!



Wayne Glowka, Songmeister.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:32:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET 

Subject: Re: there's



T. Daniel Seely (Eastern Michigan University) and I gave a paper on

'Disagreement' at the Michigan Linguistic Society in 1990. We worked with both

conversational data and traditional theoretical instruments (i.e., our

intuitions). We arrived at three principles which encourage disagreement:1)

Phonological processes a) Contraction (e.g., 'what's' versus 'what is'), b)

dissimilation ('where're' versus 'how're'); 2) Word order markedness (e.g.,

'In the shed is some cats' versus 'Some cats is in the shed'), and 3)

Processing (linearity) constraints (e.g., 'There is one man and two

women...'). These principles were confirmed by our conversational data, but

the sample was so small that we are not happy with the holes it left and with

the lack of opportunity to look at other (more subtle) constraints. Since

there is no extensive corpus of spoken AmerEng in which such itmes can be

studied, we'll have to wait around I guess.

Dennis Preston  22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:33:14 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "Fall" as transitive verb



The "Don't fall me down" occurring in child speech is part of a much broader

pattern in which causative formation is overgeneralized, leading to attested

examples like "Sing him the song" (meaning 'Make him sing the song') and my

personal favorite "I want to eat the baby" (meaning '...feed...', Freudian in-

terpretations to the contrary notwithstanding). I think Melissa Bowerman has a

lot to say about these. To the extent that 'fell' doesn't exist as a lexical

causative in a given adult or child idiolect, zero causative formation might

be expected to proceed, and evidently the form has become lexicalized in some

regions. (Since causative formation is not a productive rule in adult

language, at least with this semantic class, 'fall the tree' would no longer

occur unless there's been some lexicalization.)   --Larry Horn



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:44:47 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: there's



Funny; there's been several postings lately on Linguist List about (dis)agree-

ment and the role played by linear order, proximity, etc. I'll try to forward

the principals each other's relevant postings. (Sorry; I haven't had my second

cup of coffee so my constraints are down.)

   As for "there's" as plural (or, better, a neutralized unmarked form), at

least for me this requires contraction and, what's more, the form retains its

number marking at an abstract level, since I get



      There's been several postings on this lately, haven't there?

                             *hasn't there?

      There's two mistakes on this page, aren't there?

                       *isn't there?

      There's two mistakes on this page; at least I think there are/*is.



and so on. I'd expect variation with respect to these judgments, though.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 09:00:00 CST

From:  SHANNON MARKOFF 501  SCM2010[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMZEUS.BITNET 

Subject:  No subject given 



subscribe ADS Shannon Markoff



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:25:42 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Prescriptivist horror stories



And who remembers the elegant ladies of Baltimore speaking of their maids'

excellent ray-si-payz? It tugged at my heartstrings in the 1950s when I

heard it, dim echo of a time when such a common borrowing was still new.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 10:44:59 CST

From:  christopher fritz roth  cfr2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Removing myself from this service



Is it possible for me to remove myself from this bulletin-board, ADS? Is this

the right way to go about it?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:42:06 EST

From:  Stephen Goodman  SFG02%ALBNYDH2.bitnet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU 

Subject: Strange symbols



Some of the symbols appearing on my screen from postings to this

list are impossible for me to decipher. The symbols exist on no

keyboard I've ever seen. Most common are an upper case O beneath

a Spanish tilde and an upper case E beneath a curcumflex.



These symbols often surround character strings referenced by the

discussion, so I assume they serve as delimiters in addition to some

other functions. Other lists impose a symbol depicting a semicolon

under a horizontal bar, and I'm told by computer analysts (sic) this

is the way my "system interprets the tab key on the sender's system".



Is there a list devoted to strange twists of language (OXYMORON-L)?

If so, I nominate "computer system". Is there a Rosetta stone allowing

an interpretation of the code generated by ADS-L owner's client server?

At current subscription rates feel free to think of me as a client.



Recent postings recommending more software are probably going to win,

but I foresee a time when the need for software will outpace the speed

at which we are able to add more memory. The half life of computer

equipment is getting shorter and shorter.



*=========================================================*

* Stephen Goodman, (518) 473-8017 / sfg02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]albnydh2.bitnet *

*=========================================================*



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:59:07 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: attitude & prescription



Re Tim Frazer's query about singers and the national anthem.



Do we have American stage speech? Is it just a matter of drama coaches

telling actors to enunciate /t/ etc., or is there a lectal dimension that

has some systematic features? These may be rhetorical questions.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:42:00 MST

From:  BBOLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNMB.BITNET

Subject: Re: [El[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nojz]



   In a posting sent earlier today, which I inadvertantly deleted, the

native pronunciation of "Illinois" with initial [E] was mentioned. Here is a ni

  ce early attestation of this pronunciation. It occurs in a letter of an

Ulster immigrant who had the pronunciation only from what he had heard in

Philadelphia (indicating a formerly widespread pronunciation with [E]--

and probably final [z] too, since his spelling is largely phonetic): "hee

never Stoped till hee went to the Steate of Elinoys and he is living there

att the present time" (letter of December 11, 1850).



   Bruce D. Boling

   University of New Mexico



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 13:01:22 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Removing myself from this service



  Is it possible for me to remove myself from this bulletin-board, ADS? Is this

  the right way to go about it?



Send this command to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu:

unsub ads-l



(I'm replying on the list in case anybody else has the same question.)



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



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Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 12:34:19 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: [El[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nojz]



In Message Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:42:00 MST,

 BBOLING%UNMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vma.cc.nd.edu writes:



    In a posting sent earlier today, which I inadvertantly deleted, the

 native pronunciation of "Illinois" with initial [E] was mentioned. Here is a ni

   ce early attestation of this pronunciation. It occurs in a letter of an

 Ulster immigrant who had the pronunciation only from what he had heard in

 Philadelphia (indicating a formerly widespread pronunciation with [E]--

 and probably final [z] too, since his spelling is largely phonetic): "hee

 never Stoped till hee went to the Steate of Elinoys and he is living there

 att the present time" (letter of December 11, 1850).

 

    Bruce D. Boling

    University of New Mexico



Are square brackets in this message used in more than one way? Does [E]

stand for graphic "e" or phonetic [E]? I seem to have missed the beginning

of the discussion. Should the graphic "E" in "Elinoys" be read as phonetic

[E] (epsilon)?

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



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Date:  Mon, 28 Feb 1994 11:55:25 PST

From:  Peter Benson  benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACDCA.ITT.COM 

Subject: Spanish dialectologist consultant needed ASAP !!



We are preparing a proposal for a project in automatic dialect

identification in response to a solicitation by the Air Force. The

Statement of Work for the job calls for a literature search to help

identify acoustic and phonological features of Spanish that might help

differentiate dialects. We need to talk with a Spanish dialectologist

for possible consultation.



Time is of the essence here as we have a very short deadline. If you

are interested,please call me or e-mail me at the addresses and numbers

below.



Thanks,

Peter Benson, Ph.D.       | ITT Aerospace/Communications Division

phone: (619)578-3080      | 10060 Carroll Canyon Road

fax:  (619)578-5371      | San Diego, CA 92131

email: benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acdca.itt.com or Peter_Benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUSM.edu or benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]escondido.csusm.edu



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End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Feb 1994 to 28 Feb 1994

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