There are 12 messages totalling 261 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. need for software

 2. Possessive Marker

 3. hmm.. what's cajun English, then?

 4. "and them"

 5. pop/soda, going to John's (for his family)

 6. WOTY

 7. Bounce

 8. SECOL review (2)

 9. "bookoo"

 10. Boston accent

 11. Beaucoup pre-WWII



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 12:57:12 +0100

From:  "E.W. Schneider"  Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE 

Subject: Re: need for software



Date:     Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:19:28 -0500

Reply-to:   cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msmary.edu

From:     "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject:    Re: need for software

To:      Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET 



Folks,

    Thanks for the welcome to the ADS-L.

    Does anyone have an idea of where to find software to allow me

to print my own dialect atlas?

    I need to be able to imput a map (of Louisiana, the Cajun

dialect area), specify geographic points investigated, and add marginalia

of my own--footnotes to the replies gathered in fieldwork, in a columnar

style.

    If anyone is familiar with a type of spreadsheet or other

available software, I'd love to hear of it.

                        --Cathy Bodin



Cathy,

there is a guy at the University of Munich in the Department of

Romance linguistics who as far as I can remember devised a full-scale

software package for the creation of a linguistics atlas, ready to

measure. He talekd about this at the Intl. Conference of

Dialectologists, Bamberg 1990; some volumes of that have been

published (ed. by Wolfgang Viereck) but I don`t know whether his

paper is out. If you want to write him, try Dr. Geisler, Institut

fuer Romanistik, Universitaet Muenchen, D-80799 Muenchen, Germany.

Good luck!

Edgar





Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de

University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 09:18:30 EST

From:  SATAF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACADVM1.UOTTAWA.CA

Subject: Re: Possessive Marker



Definately productive in my family! My mother (origins southern Ontario,

Canada) uses it ALL the time same semantics, same context.



Sali Tagliamonte       Phone: (613) 564-5833

University of Ottawa     FAX:  (613) 564-9067

Department of Linguistics  E-mail: SATAF at acadvm1.uottawa.ca

78 Laurier East

Ottawa, Ontario

Canada K1N 6N5



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 08:38:07 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: hmm.. what's cajun English, then?



The popular neglect of things Cajun, which has only recently known

reversal, seems oddly paralleled in academia. Perhaps this is because

it has not figured among the burning issues in Southern dialectology. In

my view this is a mistake. A comparison between the linguistic histories

of Anglo-African interaction and Franco-African interaction would likely

be very instructive and maybe even shed light on some elusive

questions by providing a second benchmark. In any event, and for whatever,

reasons, it remains true that "the type of English spoken by most

natives of the Acadiana region is perhaps the least studied variety of

contemporary American English" (Connie Eble, "Prologomenon to the Study

of Cajun English" in The SECOL Review, fall 1993). There is an incredible

scarcity of publications on Cajun English. One can quite literally count

them on one hand. Ann Martin Scott edited a special edition of the

Louisiana English Journal entitled Cajun Vernacular English (1992), which

is aimed a educators in Louisiana, not linguists (a review of it by Eble

figures in the same issue of The SECOL Review; my review of it is

forthcoming in the The Journal of Pidgon and Creole Languages). Apart from

these, there is an earlier lexical study by Babington & Atwood (1961), and,

as Eble points out, the transcribed speech of 35 residents of Acadian

parishes in LAGS. That's about it.



Cajun English exists not only among older Cajuns, for whom it could simply

be ascribed to linguistic interference from French in many cases, but it

also exists among many of their English-monolingual offspring and thus

constitutes an authentic, native dialect for the latter population.



By the way, one must be careful not to limit the label "Cajun" in its

application. It encompasses much than just the

descendants of the Acadian immigrants back in the latter half of the 18th

century. Many other ethnic groups assimilated to the Cajun language and

culture. And with the eradication the of "Colonial French" of New Orleans,

Cajun French eventually became the de facto standard for the area. It has

some traits similar to French-based creoles (like progressive aspect _ape'_)

which leaves me off where I started, saying that Franco-African interaction

could be an instructive area of linguistic investigation compared to Anglo-

African interaction in the South.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:34:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "and them"



Could someone supply me with the e-mail address of Miklos Kontra in Budapest?

Thanks,

Dennis Preston (aka Preston Denes)

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:52:07 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: pop/soda, going to John's (for his family)



It's definitely 'pop' in Iowa, Minn, Ndak and nebr, which fits in w Don

Lance's data.



Not everyone uses 'John's' for 'john's family' around here in Iowa but

some do, also in Indiana.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 15:16:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY



Anybody out there got Bill Ritchie's e-mail address (at Syracuse)?

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 14:50:01 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounce



[Reminder: When including a previous list posting in something you're

sending to the list, be sure to edit out all references to ADS-L in the

headers. If you don't, your posting will bounce.]



  Date:     Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:34:18 -0500

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ROOT.INDSTATE.EDU

 

 The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

 2775 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

 notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

 pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (40 lines) -------------------------

  From:     "EJUSERS"  EJLESBB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]root.indstate.edu 

  Date:     Wed, 1 Feb 1995 13:09:18 EST

  Subject:   Re: "and them"

 

  Dear Dennis,

 

  Miklos' e-mail is H956KON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ELLA.HU

 

  Regards,

 

  Leslie Barratt

 

 

    Date:     Wed, 1 Feb 1995 10:34:00 EST

    From:     "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

    Subject:    Re: "and them"

 

    Could someone supply me with the e-mail address of Miklos Kontra

  in Budapest?

    Thanks,

    Dennis Preston (aka Preston Denes)

     22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

   



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:29:44 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: SECOL review



Someone recently posteda reference to an issue of the SECOL review where

an article by Connie Ebleon Cajun appeared. How does one get a copy of

that or any other issue of this journal?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:45:44 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "bookoo"



 Someone asked whether the American "bookoo" is of Cajun origin.



Of course. Haven't you noticed that from the Yuppie Generation on the

wisdom has been "If it's French and American, it must be Cajun"?

When I was first in New Orleans in 1951 there were NO Cajun restaurants

and NO Cajun anything else in the French Quarter. That would have been

sort of like touting a hillbilly restaurant in Lincoln Center. I'm

overstating the case, but Cajun wasn't always cool. Now it's cool, and

fiscally promising. In case you're wondering, I'm putting down yuppies,

not Cajuns.         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 17:58:39 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



Tim, there was more brahmin speech in the longer version. I'm sure of

that. I'd forgotten how much remained in the 55-minute version. The

longer version of "American Tongues" was previewed at an ADS meeting

some time ago, and later on shorter versions were made for wider

distribution. The next time you view the 55-minute version, notice

that at the end there are a few faces of people who didn't have big

partsin the video; they all had longer parts in the original. ("longer

parts," as if they were actors)     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 22:31:12 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: SECOL review



SECOL Review comes with membership in SECOL. I am not exactly sure about

back issues. The SECOL administration will be moving to the University

of Memphis soon, but in the short term I would inquire of Michael

Montgomery (n270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.bitnet).



I have recommended Connie's review article on Cajun matters in SECOL

Review a number of times, though I don't think on this list---it's very

good, and I second the recommendation that Tim Frazer was referring to.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Feb 1995 20:09:52 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Beaucoup pre-WWII



     Ware, Passing English. Boko = A huge nose. Corruption of

    beaucoup. . . .



Aha - I wondered why one of Bertie Wooster's chums is called Boko.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jan 1995 to 1 Feb 1995

***********************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 208 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Grip the Rat (4)

 2. Decision Making ProcessEEZ (8)

 3. Waterloo



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 08:49:24 EST

From:  Al Futrell  AWFUTR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ULKYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Grip the Rat



Anybody have "Grip the Rat" online? If so, could you send me a copy. If not,

does anybody know where I can find it. I had a copy but it has, well,

disappeared. Thanks.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 07:07:16 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GLDCMP.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



What is this word, processEEZ?



I've heard of PROCESS and its plural PROCESSES. But every now and then I'll

hear a speaker say the final syllable of the plural with a long E. Is this

some dialect? Is this a real word? Is this some affectation? Are there

others?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:21:33 -0500

From:  BHOWARD  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grip the Rat



I don't have it online but could dig up a hard copy if you'd like. Let me

know.



Becky Howard BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University, Hamilton NY 13332

Voice (315) 824-7315; FAX (315) 824-7121



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:22:59 -0500

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Grip the Rat



Grip the Rat is in W. Nelson Francis' Structure of American English (1958)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 10:45:25 -0600

From:  Alan R Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



The American Heritage Dictionary lists processes with a final "long e" as

the third of four standard pronunciations.



Alan Slotkin

ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 11:30:30 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



On processEEZ: I've always taken this to be an analogical formation, perhaps

not strictly hyper-correction but still what might be called hyper-urbanism.

The basis is alternations of the form we have in 'basis/bases', 'crisis/crises'

and their ilk, all involving semantically abstract nominals (cf. also matrix/

matrices). Now of course 'process' is not in the same class as 'basis' or

'crisis' either declensionally or even orthographically, but (and this is

crucial) it IS related to them semantically. It thus forms a minimal pair with

an orthographically parallel NON-abstract NON-conceptual word like 'mattress',

whose plural is never hyper-urbanized to 'mattressEEZ'. Nor do we have

'actressEEZ', 'countessEEZ', or (parallel to 'matrices') 'waitressEEZ'.

Perhaps the proposed label of 'affectation' is indeed appropriate here, at

least for the initial occurrences, but it would appear that there's no

longer any conscious affectation involved for many speakers now that the

long vowel version of the plural has become somewhat standardized.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:08:29 -0500

From:  BHOWARD  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



False corollary to thesEZ, right?



Becky Howard BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University, Hamilton NY 13332

Voice (315) 824-7315; FAX (315) 824-7121



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:36:56 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



It should be noted that if 'process' were REALLY processed as a parallel to

'basis', 'crisis', or (as Becky Howard suggests) 'thesis', its [+affected]

plural "ought" to be 'PROSS-eez' rather than 'PROSSess-eez'.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:06:10 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



Paul Fussell, Jr., makes fun of -EEZ plurals in his hilarious book _Class_.

 According to Fussell, the -EEZ plurals are an affectation of the middle

class, the class below Fussell's own upper middle class with its obsessive

love of sailing and art tours.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 14:14:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



Such items (e.g., crisis versus crises) provide the model for another of my

Louisville adolescent jokes - singular fecis.

Ahhhh. Morphology.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 14:21:36 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Decision Making ProcessEEZ



Well, fecis IS a nice back-formation (and no worse than 'cherry' or 'pea',

etymologically speaking). But what 'feces' (orig. 'faeces') is REALLY a plural

of is...yup, 'faex', which my Latin dictionary defines as 'grounds', 'dregs',

'earthy deposit', 'brine (of pickles)', etc. And we always thought it was

just short for 'facsimile'.

  --Larry

P.S. One fax, two ...



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 13:57:54 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grip the Rat



On Thu, 2 Feb 1995, Al Futrell wrote:



  Anybody have "Grip the Rat" online? If so, could you send me a copy. If not,

  does anybody know where I can find it. I had a copy but it has, well,

  disappeared. Thanks.

 

There's a revised version, "Aruthur the Rat," in DARE, vol 1.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Feb 1995 12:00:15 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: Re: Waterloo



It took a while, but I finally got around to digging out and

listening to Stonewall Jackson sing Waterloo. The pronoun

is 'his' and nothing but 'his'. Projection and revisionism :) .



Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



  On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:

 

    Speaking of "they," I was trying to remember which pronoun occurred in the

    chorus of this CW song from the late fifties (early sixties):

   

    Waterloo, I love you.

    Waterloo, whachya gonna do?

    Everybody has ____ day,

    Everybody has to say,

    Everybody's gonna meet ______ Waterloo.

   

    Or something like that.

  I remember:

 

  WAterloo, Waterloo,

  When will you

  Meet your waterloo?

  Everybody has their day,

  Everbody ???????? (rhyme with day)

  Everybody's got to meet their Waterloo.

 

  I didn't think you were as old as I, Wayne.

 

  Tim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Feb 1995 to 2 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 139 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "and them"

 2. ProcessEEZ (2)

 3. 3 Lexicographic Queries (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Feb 1995 06:03:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: "and them"



[[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nEm] is pretty common here in South Georgia, and it's not restricted

to 'Mama ____'. In fact, it seems to parallel the 'y'all' which means

'you and your normal group'. I hear it most often among students to

define cliques, as in 'Donny [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nEm]' for 'Donny and the crowd he hangs

around with'.



Speakers seem to be aware of the construction as stigmatized -- i.e.,

they joke about it in the same way that they joke about the 'done'

past tense, even though they use both forms freely.



The loss of [D] in 'them' may be related to its loss in some

expressions involving 'there', especially 'right there' --  [r&:?er].



David Johns

Waycross College

Waycross, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Feb 1995 06:07:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: ProcessEEZ



Larry Horn says:



# Now of course 'process' is not in the same class as 'basis' or

# 'crisis' either declensionally or even orthographically, but (and

# this is crucial) it IS related to them semantically. It thus

# forms a minimal pair with an orthographically parallel

# NON-abstract NON-conceptual word like 'mattress', whose plural is

# never hyper-urbanized to 'mattressEEZ'. Nor do we have

# 'actressEEZ', 'countessEEZ', or (parallel to 'matrices')

# 'waitressEEZ'. Perhaps the proposed label of 'affectation' is

# indeed appropriate here, at least for the initial occurrences,

# but it would appear that there's no longer any conscious

# affectation involved for many speakers now that the long vowel

# version of the plural has become somewhat standardized.



I've heard 'biasEEZ', 'purposEEZ', and 'premisEEZ', all from

University of Florida faculty, which would support the affectation

hypothesEE (well, no, I haven't heard that, but parenthesEE is pretty

common among computer folks).



David Johns

Waycross College

Waycross, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Feb 1995 08:50:28 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ProcessEEZ



In response to David Johns' posting: I KNEW there were other [+affected]

plurals out there. (Or maybe we should just think of them as [+confused], as

in 'octopi'.) 'Biases' and 'premises' do indeed work just like

'processes', although there's a complication with 'premises' in that it can be

the plural of 'premise', as in a deductive chain or a collective noun, = a

building or other location (as in 'on the ____'). I suspect both can be pro-

nounced either way ('premisus' or 'premiseez'), but I'm not sure. As for

'biases', my hypothesee :) predicts that it can be 'biaseez' only for

the statistical or sociological sense (for a skewing based on prejudice or

inadequacy of the sample) and not, say, when it refers to diagonal lines or

swerves in bowls. I'm not particularly confident in this prediction.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Feb 1995 14:12:15 EST

From:  Orin Hargraves  100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: 3 Lexicographic Queries



I would appreciate comments on any of the following; consulting American

dictionaries has proved either unhelpful or contrary to my instincts:



BUM STEER: Does it apply only to advice and information, or can it be material

(e.g., His new car/girlfriend turned out to be a bum steer).



CAKEWALK: I remember this to be a sort of glorified musical chairs activity with

cakes as prizes, typically played at a school or church function; dictionaries

call it a dance competition. What do you think it is?



DRAFT vt: The lady at the YMCA in Hanover PA tells me that she'll "draft me" or

"draft my account", meaning that the Y will collect my dues monthly by automatic

payment from my checking account. Is this standard American usage? Do we have

fixed terms for what Brits call standing order and direct debit?



Thanks very much for any input, direct if possible to me at:



Orin Hargraves

100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com

(freelance lex)



6 St. Philip's Road

London E8 3BP

ENGLAND



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Feb 1995 16:05:12 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries



On Fri, 3 Feb 1995, Orin Hargraves wrote:



  I would appreciate comments on any of the following; consulting American

  dictionaries has proved either unhelpful or contrary to my instincts:

 

  BUM STEER: Does it apply only to advice and information, or can it be material

  (e.g., His new car/girlfriend turned out to be a bum steer).



I have heard it only in reference to information. "He gave me a bum

steer on that investment" or the like. Wrong information.



 

  CAKEWALK: I remember this to be a sort of glorified musical chairs activity with

  cakes as prizes, typically played at a school or church function; dictionaries

  call it a dance competition. What do you think it is?



I've heard it applied to a very easy task. "He won in a cakewalk"

 

  DRAFT vt: The lady at the YMCA in Hanover PA tells me that she'll "draft me" or

  "draft my account", meaning that the Y will collect my dues monthly by automatic

  payment from my checking account. Is this standard American usage? Do we have

  fixed terms for what Brits call standing order and direct debit?



I haven't heard it used in this way, only as applied to forced enlistment

(even in things other than the military)



Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 151 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "and them"

 2. 3 Lexicographic Queries (2)

 3. ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995 (3)

 4. ProcessEEZ



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 01:40:06 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "and them"



The [D] in "an' nem" isn't "lost" in Southern speech (maybe Midland as

well as Southern). My production of the phrase tells me it goes like this:

  and them --  an' them (quite regular loss of -d in English dialects)

  an' them --  an-nem (regressive positional and manner assimilation)

  an-nem --  a-nem (simplification of [n-n] cluster)

My Sprachgefuel tells me that in the last of these (ordered) rules it's the

onset of the "long [n]" that is "lost".



In "right there" the first of the ordered rules to apply is glottalization

of the -t in "right", then glottal stop, then "loss" of the glottal stop.



The energy level in the production is stronger in [nen] and [dDEr] than in

the initial syllable of the phrase, so what's "lost" is in the weaker element.

For me:     (D = "eth"; ae = low front vowel)

 right there --  rai't Daer (glottalization) (I produce an "ash" rather than

      "eh" in 'there' and 'hair' and others in this set. Those of you

      who've participated in the historical merger of /E/ and /ae/

      before /r/ will have the "eh" vowel here)

 rai't D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r --  ria?-Daer (apical articulation suppressed, leaving glottal stop

 or        (sometimes one way, sometimes the other)

 rai't D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]e --  rai?-dDaer(voiced fricative becomes an affricate: [d]

      with an "eth" release

 rai?-Daer/ rai?-dDaer--  rai-Daer (weakening articulation of glottal stop

      in weakly stressed "right")



These rules are "ordered" in two senses. The sequence in the list here

goes from "most careful" speech to rapid speech (not just formality).

And the sequence underlies the structuralist ordered rules that generate

the final form in the list. Ordered in the sense of SPE application of

all feature applications occurring at once in the process of generating

the phonetic form.



This is in response to David Johns' observation/claim about "the loss of

[D] in 'them'"



I agree with David on the more general use of [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-nem to indicate

"X and whoever else" / "X and everwho else"

                        DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 02:55:51 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries



Cakewalks were common folk events at dances in 19th century America, on

into the middle of the 20th in some communities. At some point in the

evening the males would march (to music) around a table that had pastries

brought by the females and when the band stopped or gave some sort of

signal the males stopped and each had to buy the item of pastry in front

of him. I recall seeing this in the 1940s in Texas.  There are variants

of this event, as with all folk events.



Rather than being an American expression the verb 'to draft' would be a

technical term for a somewhat recent practice in American banking. Many

Americans are reluctant to allow banks to set up automatic payments to

businesses, perhaps because of the number of bank failures during the

Depression of the 1930s. "Drafting" could also apply to a single

transaction by means of a bank draft, now more likely to be done

electronically. I think Americans may do less "drafting" than Europeans

and Brits do.

               DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 10:14:58 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995



BUM STEER means 'bum steering'; hence, it cannot apply to objects. It

means that one has been steered in the wrong direction.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 11:44:27 -0500

From:  Gregory Roberts  robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995



This is may be my own folk etymology, but I have always thought that

BUM STEER refered to a hurt head of cattle, so in that case, BUM STEER

could refer to objects.

Have a nice day,

Greg Roberts



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 12:14:08 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries



On Sat, 4 Feb 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Cakewalks were common folk events at dances in 19th century America, on

  into the middle of the 20th in some communities. At some point in the

  evening the males would march (to music) around a table that had pastries

  brought by the females and when the band stopped or gave some sort of

  signal the males stopped and each had to buy the item of pastry in front

  of him. I recall seeing this in the 1940s in Texas.



[snip]

 



This is a second definition as given in DARE. DARE, incidentally, has a

column and a half (!) on "cakewalk" and "cake-waltz". Don't you hate

when that happens? 8-)

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 13:39:51 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1995 to 3 Feb 1995



Ok, ok! I can't hold back any longer!



Back in the early '70s, my former UCLA linguistics chum Michael O'Brien and

I were exchanging frequent letters, especially when we hit on a new idea of

CONNIDITIES -- CONNected IDiomatic ambiguITIES, and the discussion on 'bum

steer' got so perilously close to one of our connidities that I have to post it:



  After shooting the bull for awhile, Max gave Slim a bum steer.



This should handle both the advice and object meaning alluded to earlier.



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Feb 1995 17:02:59 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: ProcessEEZ



Suppose the EEZes got their start with *thesis, theses* where normal

pronunciation with unstressed schwa in second syllable would obliterate the

written singular-plural distinction. And what word would more likely call for

pedantic hyper-spelling-pronunciation than *theses*?

 Then the EEZ felt so good that it spread to other academic/scientific terms

where the written form was primary.

- Allan



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Feb 1995 to 4 Feb 1995

**********************************************





From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Sun Feb 5 23:06:03 1995

Received: from Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (walt.cs.msstate.edu [130.18.208.30]);

      by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP);

      id XAA06364; Sun, 5 Feb 1995 23:06:03 -0600

Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.0s-FWP);

	  id AA19642; Sun, 5 Feb 95 23:05:59 CST

Message-Id:  9502060505.AA19642[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Walt.CS.MsState.Edu 

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)

  with BSMTP id 0707; Mon, 06 Feb 95 00:04:08 EST

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 5856; Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:01:03 -0500

Date:   Mon, 6 Feb 1995 00:01:00 -0500

Sender: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Reply-To: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Status: R



There is one message totalling 21 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. cakewalk



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Feb 1995 09:47:24 EST

From:  "Janet M. Fuller"  JMCFULL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: cakewalk



Although the cakewalk as kind of a musical chairs

to win a cake is what I'm familiar with from my

Minnesota childhood, I've also heard tell of a

completely different kind of cakewalk, i.e. a

dance competition. My only reference to that

is from a book by Charles Chesnutt, a turn of the

century African American writer (I believe it was

'The Marrow of Tradition') -- there's a rather

important episode involving a cakewalk, which in

this case was a dance competition among African

Americans.



Janet Fuller

jmcfull[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Feb 1995 to 5 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 54 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 3 Lexicographic Queries

 2. cakewalk



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Feb 1995 08:53:10 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries



 CAKEWALK: I remember this to be a sort of glorified musical chairs activity

 with

 cakes as prizes, typically played at a school or church function; dictionaries

 call it a dance competition. What do you think it is?



Literally: Several months ago I went to a fall fair at a primary school in

Tenille, Georgia, where one of the activities was a CAKEWALK. Numbered

squares were on the sidewalk arranged in a circle. Music was played and

the contestants walked until the music stopped. A number, I believe, was

drawn, and the person standing on that number won a cake. Articles in the

newspaper often reminisce about cakewalks in the dim past--often with

reference to the African-American portion of the community.



Figuratively: A CAKEWALK is any task that exceptionally easy to accomplish.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Feb 1995 13:49:09 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: cakewalk



Definition 1) I don't recall anybody mentioning the fact that Chuck Berry

was notorious for his cakewalk: guitar slung low across the hip, legs

advancing scissor-like below the knees, he half-glided half skipped

across the front of the stage as he hammered out the refrain from

Johnny B. Goode. Are any other cakewalks as famous? I don't know if this was

a left-over from the Minstrel tradition or not.



Definition 2)

We also have cakewalks in primary schools in Tuscaloosa at fund-raising

events. Parents bake cupcakes. Kids pay a quarter to walk around a kind

of horizontal clock-face with numbers. When the music stops, kid gets a

cupcake from the batch bearing the number he/she stopped on.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Feb 1995 to 6 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 54 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Slow Spanish accent

 2. SECOL Registration and Program



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Feb 1995 17:55:02 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Slow Spanish accent



Just wondering if any of you native Spanish speakers or those who have

lived in Central and South American Spanish speaking countries know of a

corrollary to the following ones for French and German.



The French in France often refer to the Swiss French as having very slow

speech. My experience living in Europe for a number of years does

indicate that there is some truth to that, although I have not done any

quantifiable research on the subject. The Swiss Germans also appear to

to have a slower rate of speech than do other German speakers I know.



2 questions:

    1. Do Spanish speakers from Central and South America refer to

Spanish speakers in any single country as people that typically speak

SLOWERslower than those from other countries? And those who FASTER or

the FASTEST?

    2. Has any research been done on this subject for any of theose

languages and/or for English?



Please send replies directly to me at:



allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com  OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



Thanks



Jeff Allen



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Feb 1995 21:10:53 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: SECOL Registration and Program



The registration materials and preliminary program listings for the spring

meeting of SECOL (Southeastern Conference on Linguistics), April 6-8,

1995, in Athens, GA, are now available electronically. I can forward them

in response to a direct request to me. Please avoid cluttering the list

with replies to the list---which has been cluttered enough with this

announcement (I also apologize for the cross posting)! Over 80 papers

have been scheduled, on a full range of topics in linguistics; the

conference should be both fun and informative.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Feb 1995 to 7 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 118 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. cakewalk (2)

 2. Bounced Mail (re cakewalk)

 3. subscribe SHANA WALTON



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Feb 1995 23:59:34 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: cakewalk



Now Mike, granted you might be a bit older than me (the original

"Johnny B. Goode" came out in Dec. 1957, nearly 2 years before I did!)...

But I've never heard of Chuck Berry doing the CAKE-walk, except maybe

when he was growing up in St. Louis. It was his DUCK-walk that drove

'em wild on stage and "deliver[ed] us from the days of old"...

    But for a cakewalk that can't be beat, check out Taj Mahal's

"Recycling the Blues and Other Related Stuff" (1972) for the guitar-

and-tuba duet on "Cakewalk into Town":

    "I had the blues so bad one time

    It put my face in a permanent frown

    But now I'm feeling so much better

    I could cakewalk into town

    I woke up feeling so good this morning

    I lay back down again..."

at which point decency demands that you get your own recording or

respond privately. No little kids in this song...

        --peter patrick



PS. I believe Huddie Ledbetter also recorded a cakewalk but I don't

know where. He learned directly from the minstrel tradition when it

was still going, 'course, not reviving it from near-death like Taj.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Feb 1995 04:55:25 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail (re cakewalk)



Reminder: When including a previous list posting in something you're

sending to the list, be sure to edit out all references to ADS-L in the

headers.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Tue, 7 Feb 1995 20:08:28 -0500

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from IUP

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  4031 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (77 lines) -------------------------

  Date: Tue, 07 Feb 1995 20:06:24 -0500 (EST)

  From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IUP.BITNET 

  Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries

  Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania

 

  Subj:  RE: 3 Lexicographic Queries

 

  Date: Mon, 06 Feb 1995 08:53:10 -0500 (EST)

  From: Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

  Subject: Re: 3 Lexicographic Queries

 

   .Literally: Several months ago I went to a fall fair at a primary school in

   Tenille, Georgia, where one of the activities was a CAKEWALK. Numbered

   squares were on the sidewalk arranged in a circle. Music was played and

   the contestants walked until the music stopped. A number, I believe, was

   drawn, and the person standing on that number won a cake. Articles in the

   newspaper often reminisce about cakewalks in the dim past--often with

   reference to the African-American portion of the community.

 

   Figuratively: A CAKEWALK is any task that exceptionally easy to accomplish.

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

  BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN

 

  I have always thought that cakewalks in the African American community (during

  and right after slavery) were competitions in which couples performed creative

  and difficult dance steps for the prize of a cake. I thought that this

  activity took place at parties. As a matter of fact I think that I've seen

  illustrations of couples high stepping with the word cakewalk somewhere in the

  caption. Now the leap I made was that the expression, "that takes the cake"

  came from those competitions and the meaning was "that performance was the most

  [outstanding, outrageous, surprising] of all" What do you think?

 

  BHHudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Feb 1995 08:23:35 -0600

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: subscribe SHANA WALTON



subscribe SHANA WALTON

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu



--

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Feb 1995 10:16:07 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: cakewalk



The cakewalk was briefly the rage in Europe: both the danse and the name

started appearing in France in 1895. Debussy composed "Golliwog's Cake-

Walk" for the piano in 1908.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1995 to 8 Feb 1995

**********************************************







There is one message totalling 13 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Slow Spanish accent



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Feb 1995 14:53:24 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Slow Spanish accent



Concerning "slow" speech in English, I cannot cite any references because I

have only heard him speak, but John Scanlon has worked on this topic. You

might also check with Deborah Tannen, who collaborates with him.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Feb 1995 to 11 Feb 1995

************************************************







There is one message totalling 379 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Developments in Discourse Analysis (GLS 1995)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Feb 1995 19:08:23 -0500

From:  Shari Kendall  KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Developments in Discourse Analysis (GLS 1995)



updated 2/10/95





               **********

        The Georgetown Linguistics Society

               presents



      GLS 1995: DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS







            February 17-19, 1995

        Georgetown University, Washington D.C.



               **********





           **REGISTRATION SCHEDULE**



Friday  11:00 a.m. - 5:45 p.m. Intercultural Center (ICC) Galleria.

Saturday 8:30 a.m. - 7:30 p.m. ICC Auditorium main entrance

Sunday  8:30 a.m. - 6:00 p.m. ICC Auditorium main entrance





             **EVENT LOCATIONS**



Sessions:     Intercultural Center. Rooms will be posted at registration.

Plenary Sessions: Intercultural Center Auditorium.

Reception:    Intercultural Center Galleria.







            **CONFERENCE SCHEDULE**





            *FRIDAY, February 17*



11:00 a.m.



Registration begins in the Intercultural Center Galleria



2:00 - 3:30



Colloquium: Developments in Signed Language Discourse Part I

 (Coordinator: Melanie Metzger)

*Ruth Morgan

 The interplay of place and space in a Namibian Sign Language narrative

*Kathleen Wood

 Negotiating literate identities: Life stories of deaf students

*Susan M. Mather

 Adult-deaf toddler discourse



Will the Real Author Please Stand Up?: Exploiting the Speech of Others

*Richard Buttny

 Talking race on campus: Reported speech in accounts of race relations

 at a university campus

*Akira Satoh

 Reported speech in English and Japanese: A comparative analysis

*Joyce Tolliver

 Evidentiality and accountability in literary narrative



Folk, Interlocutor, and Analytical Frameworks

*Hanny Feurer

 A place for folk linguistics in discourse analysis? Greetings in

 Tibeto-Burman languages

*Christianna I. White

 Similarity and distinctiveness: A vantage analysis of Plato's

 Gorgias

*Martin Warren

 How do conversations begin and end?



3:45 - 5:15



Colloquium: Developments in Signed Language Discourse Part II

 (Coordinator: Melanie Metzger)

*Tina M. Neumann

 Figurative language in an American Sign Language poem: Personification and

 prosopopoeia

*Scott Liddell and Melanie Metzger

 Spatial mapping in an ASL Narrative: Examining the use of multiple surrogate

 spaces

*Elizabeth A. Winston

 Spatial mapping in comparative discourse frames in American Sign Language



Political, Intellectual, Institutional Identities

*Anna De Fina

 Pronominal choice, identity and solidarity in political discourse

*Charlotte Linde

 Other people's stories: Third person narrative in individual and group

 identity

*Karen Tracy

 The identity work of questioning in intellectual discussion



Prior Discourses and the Structure of Classroom Interaction

*Mary Buchinger Bodwell

 "Now what does that mean, 'first draft'?": Adult literacy classes and

 alternative models of editing a text

*Deborah Poole

 The effects of text on talk in a class-room literacy event

*Myriam Torres

 Why teachers do not engage in co-construction of knowledge: A critical

 discourse analysis



5:30 - 6:30



               ROGER SHUY

     Getting People to Admit Their Guilt: A Case Study



6:45 - 7:45



             DEBORAH SCHIFFRIN

           Narrative as Self-Portrait



8:00 - 11:00



Reception, Intercultural Center Galleria





            *SATURDAY, February 18*



9:30 - 10:30



              HEIDI HAMILTON

       The Aging of a Poet: Intertextuality and the

  Co-construction of Identities in the Oppen Family Letter Exchange



10:45 - 12:45



Colloquium: Developments in Conversation Analysis: Oh, What, Or, Pardon

 (Coordinator: Maria Egbert)

*Paul Drew

 'What'?: A sequential basis for an 'open' form of repair initiation in

 conversation (and some implications for cognitive approaches to interaction)

*Maria Egbert

 The relevance of interactants' eye gaze to the organization of

 other-initiated repair: The case of German 'bitte?' ('pardon?')

*Anna Lindstrom

 'Or'-constructed inquiries as a resource for probing the relevance of prior

 talk in Swedish conversation

*John Heritage

 'Oh'-prefaced responses to inquiry



Privileged Views in Media Discourse

*Gertraud Benke

 News about news: Textual features of news agency copies and their usage in the

 newsproduction

*Debra Graham

 Racism in the reporting of the O.J. Simpson arrest: A critical discourse

 analysis approach

*Ian Hutchby

 Arguments and asymmetries on talk radio



Interactional Explanations for Patterns of Variation

*Scott Fabius Kiesling

 Using interactional discourse analysis to explain variation

*Sylvie Dubois

 The coherent network of effects on discourse



Humorous Faces

*Nancy K. Baym

 Humorous performance in a computer-mediated group

*Diana Boxer and Florencia Cortes-Conde

 Teasing that bonds: Conversational joking and identity display



12:45 - 2:45



Theme lunch



2:45 - 4:45



Negotiating Authority and Status

*Cynthia Dickel Dunn

 The language of the tea teacher: Shifting indexical ground in a Japanese

 pedagogical context

*Lena Gavruseva

 'What is this drivel about garages?': The construction of authoritative

 self in the cover letter discourse

*Geoffrey Raymond

 The voice of authority: Sequence and turn design in live news broadcasts

*Hideko Nornes Abe

 Discourse analysis on distal and direct styles of Japanese women's speech



Narrative Structures across Languages

*Viola G. Miglio

 Tense alternations in medieval prose texts

*Asli Ozyurek

 How children use connectives to talk about a conversation

*Marybeth Culley

 Rhetorical elaborations of a Chiricahua Apache comic narrative genre

*Bethany K. Dumas

 Complex narratives in Ozark discourse



Competing Discourses and Dominance

*Tony Hak

 'She has clear delusions': The production of a factual account

*Catherine F. Smith

 Democratic discourses

*John Clark

 Standard and vernacular: Persuasive discourse styles in conflict

*Kathryn Remlinger

 Keeping it straight: The socio-linguistic construction of a heterosexual

 ideology in a campus community



5:00 - 7:00



Colloquium: Discourse and Conflict

 (Coordinator: Christina Kakava)

*Faye C. McNair-Knox

 Discourse and conflict in African-American English womantalk: Patterns of

 grammaticalized disapproval in narratives

*Christina Kakava

 Evaluation in personal and vicarious stories: Mirror of a Greek man's self

*Patricia E. O'Connor

 'You can't keep a man down': Positioning in conflict talk and in violent acts

*Laine Berman

 Life stories from the streets: Homeless children's narratives of violence

 and the construction of a better world



Discourse Influences on Syntactic Categories and Structures

*Jennifer Arnold

 The interaction between discourse focus and verbal form in Mapudungun

*Rajesh Bhatt

 Information status and word order in Hindi

*Paul Hopper

 Discourse and the category 'verb' in English



Interactional Construction of Cognitive Understanding

*Pamela W. Jordan and Megan Moser

 Multi-level coordination in computer-mediated conversation

*Claudia Roncarati

 Repetition and cognition in the information flow: A case-study in Brazilian

 Portuguese database

*Andrea Tyler and John Bro

 Examining perceptions of text comprehensibility: The effect of order and

 contextualization cues

*Robbert-Jan Beun

 Structure in cooperative dialogue



7:15 - 8:15



              CHARLES GOODWIN

           The Social Life of Aphasia





Saturday Evening



Theme Dinner





            *SUNDAY, February 19*



9:30 - 10:30



             FREDERICK ERICKSON

       Discourse Analysis as a Communication Chunnel:

           How Feasible is a Linkage

      between Continental and Anglo-American Approaches?



10:45 - 12:45



Colloquium: Frames Theory and Discourse

 (Coordinator: Janice Hornyak)

*Janice Hornyak

 Personal and professional frames in office discourse

*Susan Hoyle

 Negotiation of footing in play

*Carolyn Kinney

 The interaction of frames, roles and footings: Conversational strategies of

 co-leaders in a long-term group

*Yoshiko Nakano

 Interplay of expectations in cross-cultural miscommunication: A case study of

 negotiations between Americans and Japanese

*Suwako Watanabe

 Framing in group discussion: A comparison between Japanese and American

 students



Interpreting, Challenging, Evaluating Gender

*Jennifer Curtis

 Contestation of masculine identities in a battering intervention program

*Keller S. Magenau

 More than feminine: Attending to power and social distance dimensions in

 spoken and written workplace communication

*Keli Yerian

 Professional and gendered identities in the discourse of two public

 television directors

*Donna Trousdale

 Social languages and privileging: Gender and school science discourse



Discursive Enactments of Cultural Ideologies

*Isolda Carranza

 Stance-making in oral interviews

*Shari E. Kendall

 Religion and experience: Constructed dialogue, narrative, and life story in

 religious testimonies

*Agnes Weiyun He

 Stories as interactional resources: Narrative activity in academic counseling

 encounters

*Orla Morrissey

 Discourse analysis as an evaluation methodology for technology assessment in

 pre-competitive R and D environments



12:45 - 2:15



lunch



2:15 - 3:45



Computational Approaches to Discourse Analysis

*Megan Moser and Johanna D. Moore

 An approach to the study of discourse cues

*Yan Qu

 A computational approach for automatically extracting discourse rules

*Donald Lewis

 Theme and eventline in a Classical Hebrew narrative: A computer-assisted

 analysis



Conversational Moves

*C. Antaki, F. Diaz, A. Collins

 Participants' orientation to footing: Evidence from conversational completion

*Peter Muntigl

 Saving face in argument: An analysis of face-threatening disagreements



Fine-tuning Conversation

*Hiroko Spees

 How aizuchi 'back channels' shape and are shaped by the interaction in

 Japanese conversation

*Toshiko Hamaguchi

 Manifestation of shared knowledge in conversation

*Yrjo Engestrom

 Discursive disturbances as bridge between the micro and the macro:

 Evidence from activity-theoretical studies in collaborative work settings



4:00 - 5:00



              DEBORAH TANNEN

          Academic Discourse as Discourse



5:00 - 5:15



               RALPH FASOLD

              Closing Remarks







           **HOW TO CONTACT GLS 1995**



Please send registration and requests for information regarding special

discounts on airfare, accommodations, and transportation to the

Georgetown Linguistics Society:



    GLS 1995            internet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

    Georgetown University      bitnet:  gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet

    Department of Linguistics    voice:   (202) 687-6166

    479 Intercultural Center

    Washington, D.C. 20057-1068



Regularly updated information is available through the World-Wide Web

Georgetown Linguistics Home Page: http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html





             **REGISTRATION**



On-site registration will begin at 11:00 a.m. in the Intercultural

Center (ICC) Galleria on Friday, February 17, 1995.



   Students    $30.00

   Non-students  $40.00



______________________________________________________





End of announcement. Please distribute as widely as possible. Thank you.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Feb 1995 to 12 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 199 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Cajun English Dialect

 2. Call for abstracts for midwest, correction: make it 1995

 3. hel-l (2)

 4. pickle- low party (4)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 09:01:04 -0600

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: Cajun English Dialect



Hey y'all,



I had just told the linguistic anthropoogy folks that I did my diss on

Cajun English, and so Peter Patrick asked me to post a message to this list

describing what I'd done and how I defined Cajun English.



My diss was on the uses of Cajun English as an ethnic identifier, ethnic

boundary marker for self-identifying Cajuns, especially for those who live

their lives in English these days. I did a year and a half of field work

in Terrebonne Parish. For those of y'all who know the area, I lived south

of Houma along Bayou Terrebonne in Bourg, a few miles above Montegut. I

interviewed people who were natives of Montegut, Pointe-aux-Chenes and

(over on Bayou Petit Caillou) Chauvin. I collected and analyzed oral

histories as well as recording naturally-occurring conversation (whatever

that means). Also did the sociolinguistics thing with a matched-guise test

to look for attitudes toward Cajun English.



Nothing's published. I'll be happy to share with any who'd like more info.



One chapter of the diss was devoted to a quick linguistic analysis of

Cajun English (phonology, suprasegmentals and some syntax). I completely

avoided defining Cajun English by not calling

it that. I used the word that the people who live in that area use to

refer to their own speech. Down there, they call it "flat." And people who

have heavy accents talk "flat, flat, flat." In Terrebonne Parish, the term

is a regional AND ethnic boundary marker. For instance, you can refer to

the local Houma Indian speech as "flat," (depending on the speaker, of

course). Locals talk in general terms about how people in "south

Louisiana" (by which they mean South of New Orleans -- not the prairie

Cajuns) all talk "flat." People in Lafourche Parish as said to talk even

"flatter." Justin Wilson, many say, never talked "flat" in his life. (Talk

about a lightning rod for anger.) Several people told me that you aren't

a Cajun unless you "talk flat."  The word "flat," marks different

boundaries at different times, depending on the setting, speakers, need, etc.



Carl Blyth (UT) once told me that people in Pointe Coupee (I think -- I'm

working from memory here and may have gotten the wrong parish) have the

expression, "parle plat." And Pat Mire (who did that great movie "Dance

with a Chicken") told me that growing up in Eunice he'd heard it a lot.

However, lots of prairie Cajuns have never heard the term.



Anyway, for the linguistic analysis I just got people to say, "OK, this is

flat, this isn't," etc. and then analyzed the differences between the

reports of what is and isn't flat.



There's no question in my mind, however, that when you talk about Cajun

English you *have* to deal with *regional* and *class* questions in

addition to ethnic identification. And the issues surrounding ethnic

identification are complicated as well. In Terrebonne Parish, anyway, the

label "Cajun" has as much to do with economic class, racial lines

(perceived), and recent memory as it does with who actually came over from

Nova Scotia. Or at least it does where I did my field work (among upper

working class, lower middle class folks).



Sorry for going on at such length, I just wasn't really sure what people

are interested in: questions of defining the dialect, pieces of the

phonology or suprasegmentals (which are crucial), or the surrounding

cultural milieu in which the dialect resides.



Feel free to add, question, debate, narrow the focus, or whatever.



--

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:55:01 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Call for abstracts for midwest, correction: make it 1995



Call For Abstracts

AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY, MIDWEST REGIONAL MEETING



Submission deadline: March 27, 1995, for



   American Dialect Society session

   Midwest Modern Language Association

   November 2-4, 1995

   St. Louis, MO

   Marriott Pavilion Hotel



Abstracts and proposals on any topic welcome. If there is

sufficient interest, we will have a session devoted to papers,

presentations and discussion on topics related to Midland

dialect.



Send to  Beth Lee Simon, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu

     CM 109

     Department of English and Linguistics

     Indiana University-Purdue University at Fort Wayne

     Fort Wayne, IN 46805

**************************



Please send your proposals by March of this year, not last year.

(Thanks Tim)



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 14:46:39 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: hel-l



Would someone give me the hel-l address please? Thanks,



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 16:46:09 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: hel-l



Thanks for the address!



beth

(or, rather, Thanks! for the address)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 13:55:54 -0800

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: pickle- low party



Last week I saw an exhibition of Dorothea Lange photographs at

at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Included was one of a

handlettered sign on a telephone pole in Pittsboro, N.C.

It was a general invitation to a "pickle-/low party" (hyphen

before linebreak), and couples would be charged fifteen cents.

I can see possibilities in low life and getting pickled, but

that is just speculation. I haven't gotten anywhere with the

apparent dictionaries. Anybody know what it is? Curiosity.



Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 17:08:32 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: pickle- low party



A party where the entertainment would be piccolo music?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 21:24:44 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: pickle- low party



re pickle low



  In the dim recesses of my mind, I seem to remember that some people

characterized a certain kind of music as piccolo music and somewhere in this

description was the image of a piano. Is this murky enough?



Bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Feb 1995 23:08:31 EST

From:  Brad Grissom  BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: Re: pickle- low party



 Last week I saw an exhibition of Dorothea Lange photographs at

 at the Philadelphia Museum of Art. Included was one of a

 handlettered sign on a telephone pole in Pittsboro, N.C.

 It was a general invitation to a "pickle-/low party" (hyphen

 before linebreak), and couples would be charged fifteen cents.

 I can see possibilities in low life and getting pickled, but

 that is just speculation. I haven't gotten anywhere with the

 apparent dictionaries. Anybody know what it is? Curiosity.

 

 Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

 University of British Columbia Library



No help here, but an odd coincidence that might be related: I was

just watching a dramatization of an Ed McClanahan short story ("The

Congress of Wonders"). In 1944, a young boy confronts a carnival

sideshow shill with her fakeries, and she says in exasperation,

"You wanna be told the goddam truth, don't come to a goddam pickle

punk show." I'm almost certain that's what I heard -- pickle, not

nickel.



Brad Grissom

bgrissom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 71 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pickle- low party

 2. ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995 (2)

 3. History of the English Language list

 4. jakes



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:38:02 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: pickle- low party



re: pickle low--2nd message



  I checked with my husband who reminded me that some segments of the AA

community called juke boxes piccolos and that in the forties people would rent

a juke box and use the music for parties. I remember one such party--they

wheeled a huge box that looked like a Wurlitzer(?) and it was rigged so that it

would play without people having to put coins in it.







Bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:25:04 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995



Would someone either post the hel-l address or send it to me, please?

Bob Wachal

robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Feb 1995 08:31:33 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1995 to 13 Feb 1995



  Would someone either post the hel-l address or send it to me, please?



It's HEL-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EBBS.ENGLISH.VT.EDU (commands to LISTPROC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EBBS.ENGLISH.VT.EDU).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Feb 1995 10:22:22 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: History of the English Language list



Since more than one person has now asked, perhaps the whole list should

know that they can reach other HELians at



hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Feb 1995 15:58:36 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



Is anyone familiar with the use of the term "jakes" (or "jake" or "jake

house") to mean a privy or a toilet? The OED has it from c1530 on, but

almost all of DARE's contemporary evidence for it comes from Roman Catholic

clergymen! Is it more widespread than that? If you know it, please tell me

where and when you heard it. Thanks.



Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Feb 1995 to 14 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 67 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. jakes (2)

 2. Call for abstracts for midwest, correction: make it 1995



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Feb 1995 08:07:57 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



 Is anyone familiar with the use of the term "jakes" (or "jake" or "jake

 house") to mean a privy or a toilet? The OED has it from c1530 on, but

 almost all of DARE's contemporary evidence for it comes from Roman Catholic

 clergymen! Is it more widespread than that? If you know it, please tell me

 where and when you heard it. Thanks.

 

 Joan Hall, DARE



Benjamin Franklin uses the word in a hilarious mock scientific proposal

called "To the Royal Academy" (_The Bagatelles from Passy_, ed. Claude-Anne

Lopez [New York: Eakins P, 1967]: 22-26). In this bagatelle, Franklin's

virtuoso persona argues that if the smell of a jakes can be tamed with

lime, a pill could be found to make farts smell so good that we would let

them fly for one another's pleasure. Cf. the article by a brilliant young

scholar from Georgia College, "Franklin's Perfumed Proposer," _Studies in

American Humor_ 4 (Winter 1985-86): 229-41. (When this gift to the

profession circulated this damn article, one editor sent it back doused in

perfume!)







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Feb 1995 16:04:24 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: jakes



   Joan: I have no personal knowledge of jakes = privy. I would mention

   several "modern" uses. E. H. Babbitt, "College Words and Phrases"

   Dialect Notes, II, Part I, 1900. Jake = water closet for men.



    Time, 22 April 1957, page 116. Jakes is used twice within a review

   of The Feast of Lupercal by Brian Moore.  ". . . the writing is on

   the jakes wall for . . . "



    Esquire, December 1977, page 134. ". . . to the basement lavatory

   (where, it turns out, the jakes are placed in stalls that lack doors,

   open with primitive simplicity to the airs) . . . "



   Randy Roberts

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Feb 1995 20:17:44 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Call for abstracts for midwest, correction: make it 1995



I said I'd be on a panel. How's that possiblity looking?



Tim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Feb 1995 to 15 Feb 1995

************************************************





From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Fri Feb 17 02:26:52 1995

Received: from Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (walt.cs.msstate.edu [130.18.208.30]);

      by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP);

      id CAA01732; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 02:26:51 -0600

Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.0s-FWP);

	  id AA29298; Fri, 17 Feb 95 02:26:48 CST

Message-Id:  9502170826.AA29298[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Walt.CS.MsState.Edu 

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)

  with BSMTP id 3296; Fri, 17 Feb 95 03:28:00 EST

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 2799; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 00:03:53 -0500

Date:   Fri, 17 Feb 1995 00:03:51 -0500

Sender: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Reply-To: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1995 to 16 Feb 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Status: R



There are 12 messages totalling 379 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. jakes (8)

 2. Derivation of Jake (2)

 3. ADS Annual Meeting

 4. All the news thats fit to print



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 08:27:12 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: jakes



 Is anyone familiar with the use of the term "jakes" (or "jake" or "jake

 house") to mean a privy or a toilet? The OED has it from c1530 on, but

 almost all of DARE's contemporary evidence for it comes from Roman Catholic

 clergymen! Is it more widespread than that? If you know it, please tell me

 where and when you heard it. Thanks.



I have never heard the word (I live in Salt Lake City), but I checked

three dictionaries to see whether it appeared in any of them. It is

listed in all three (Merriam Webster's Collegiate, Tenth Edition; AHD,

Third Edition; and the latest edition of Webster's New World). I'm

sure that the Random House members of this group can tell us whether

it is also listed in their dictionary and (possibly?) even share with us

some of the information from their citation files.



Merriam Webster's Collegiate gives 1538 as the date of origin, defines

it simply as "privy," and says that the word perhaps comes from the French

"Jacques."



The AHD says that the word is chiefly British, defines it as "a latrine;

a privy," and also states that it perhaps originated from "Jacques."



Webster's New World says that the word comes from "Jacques" (no "perhaps"

given), with the additional comment that it is "now chiefly dial[ectal]."

It defines the word as "an outdoor toilet; privy."



-Bruce Gelder



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:50:01 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: jakes



I don't have any citations, but I would be willing to imagine jakes started

out as another slang

reference to John.



Isn't Jake a nickname for John? or is it a nickname for James?



For that matter, if the term john is younger than jakes, then this whole baby

is out with the privy water ;-)







leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:49:43 -0500

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



Joan, my own use of it was in high school, in the 1960's, when it referred

to a hick.



Becky Howard



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 10:06:46 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Leo Horishny wrote:



  I don't have any citations, but I would be willing to imagine jakes started

  out as another slang

  reference to John.

 

  Isn't Jake a nickname for John? or is it a nickname for James?

 

  For that matter, if the term john is younger than jakes, then this whole baby

  is out with the privy water ;-)

 

 

 

  leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

  Rowrbazzle!

 

I assume Jake is a nickname for James rather than John, since, for

example, churches named Sankt Jakob in German, Sv. Jakub in Czech, etc.,

translate to St. James in English.



Peter McGraw



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:19:38 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



The OED (1989) says "origin uncertain; it has been suggested to be from

the proper name _Jacques_, _Jakes_; or from _Jakke_, `Jack', quasi

_Jakkes_, `Jack's'" and gives attestations going back to the 1530s,

sometimes with variant spellings, _iaques_, _iakes_.





I don't know of any present use in formal language or slang of Fr. _Jacques_

that corresponds to `privy', though it can be used to refer to the male

sex organ. Historically, the word could be used to refer to a peasant and

may have had other uses I am unaware of. But two things might be viewed as

circumstantial evidence for a French origin. References to similar entities

in France are generally in the plural: les cabinets, les lieux d'aisance,

les toilettes. There is a history of trans-Channel borrowings in this

domain, apparently to make such references appear somehow more elegant:

thus Eng. _toilet_ from French, and Fr. _W.C._ OveseE (water closet) from

English.



Note, however, that in Louisiana it is singular _le cabinet_.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 13:45:33 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



And Farmer & Henley's Slang compendium (1890-1904, reprinted Arno Press, 1970)

lists 'jakes' as "old colloquial" (for 'a privy', 'a house of office' [talk

about your euphemisms!). They have a citation from 1550, and suggest 'that

jakes was originally Jake's or Jack's, a humorous euphemism'. F & H give Jack

as a Scottish version, as well as Ajax ('pronounced with both a's long') as a

pun on 'a jakes' to which both Jonson and Shakespeare resorted. They comment:

   The cause of all this vein of low wit was perhaps Sir John Harrington,

   who in 1596 published his celebrated tract called "The Metamorphosis of

   Ajax", by which he meant 'the improvement of a jakes', or necessary, by

   forming it into what we now call a water-closet, of which Sir John was

   clearly the inventor. For this offence to her delicacy, Queen Elizabeth

   kept him for some time in disgrace.

 I suppose she could have stowed poor Sir John someplace a bit worse...



 --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 12:53:19 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: jakes



Herewith the OED2 entry:



ux1 2  oed2 jakes

1 match

jakes (d3eIks). Forms: 6 iacques, 6-7 iaxe, iakes, iaques, 7

 jacks, 7-8

jaques, 7- jakes (also 6 iake, 8 jack). Plural, 6 iaxes, 7 j

jakeses,

jaqueses, 8 jakes's; also in same form as sing. [Origin unascertained;

it has been suggested to be from the proper name Jaques, Jakes; or from

Jakke, `Jack', quasi Jakkes, `Jack's'.

 (`Gakehouse' in 1438 Tintinhull Churchw. Acc. (Som. Rec. Soc.) p. 179,

is an editorial misreading of `Bakehouse'.)]

 1 a A privy.

 153. in Ellis Orig. Lett. Ser. III. III. 84 The Iaques was very well

doon. 1538 Inv. in J. W. Clark Barnwell Introd. 24 The jakes of the

dorter. 1549 BALE Journ. Leland Pref. B j, A great nombre of them whych

purchased those superstycyouse mansyons, reserued of those Lybrarie

bokes, some to serue theyr iakes, some to scoure theyr candlestyckes.

1552 HULOET, Siege, iacques, bogard, or draught, latrina. 1570 LEVINS

Manip. 12/13 Iake, forica. 1596 HARINGTON Metam. Ajax Pref. (1814) 14

Because I will write of a Jakes. 1620 Naworth Househ. Bk. 145 To a

tyller for tylling the jacks, vjd. 1634 Documents agst. Prynne (Camden)

12 They..dragged his carckesse throughe the cittye, and cast it into the

common jakes. 1649 R. HODGES Plain Direct. 12 Let the hous bee made a

jakes for Mr. Jaques. 1657 Manchester Crt. Leet Rec. (1887) IV. 202 Noe

close stoole, Jackes, Carrion or garbage be cast vpon the Ackers Mid-

dinge. 1701 C. WOLLEY Jrnl. New York (1860) 26 The more unhealthful it

may prove, by reason of Jaques, Dunghills and other excrementitious

stagnations. 1727 P. WALKER Life of Peden in Biogr. Presb. (1827) I. 144

He [Arius] went..into a common Jack and purg'd out all his Inwards. 1788

V. KNOX Winter Even. I. II. xv. 211 His book is a nasty book, and fit

only for the jakes. 1855 KINGSLEY Westw. Ho (1861) 168 The

fox..that..jumped down a jakes to escape the hounds.1913 L. WOOLF Vil-

lage in Jungle iv. 54 The headman's brother is to marry a sweeper of

jakes! 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 68 He kicked open the crazy door of the

jakes. 1969 Listener 26 June 902/3 He is at his best when not occupied

with symbols..but concerned to tell how the keeper of an `underground

jakes' mistakes a police stool-pigeon for a real poof.

 b transf. and fig.

 1579 TOMSON Calvin's Serm. Tim. 967/1 What vermine, I pray you, is

there of Monkes, and Priestes, and all that Cleargie?..that filthie and

stinking iaxe hath filled the world so full. 1637 GILLESPIE Eng. Pop.

Cerem. Ep. B iij, Cast forth as things accursed into the Iakes of eter-

nall detestation. 1660 Life & Death Mrs. Rump 2 Hell..that stinking poy-

sonous place called the Ile of Jaqueses. 1701 DE FOE True-born Eng. 194

We have been Europe's Sink, the Jakes where she Voids all her Offal

Out-cast Progeny. 1753 SMOLLETT Ct. Fathom (1784) 13/1 Who eagerly

explore the jakes of Rabelais, for amusement. 1829 BENTHAM Petit. Jus-

tice 173 The jakes, of late so notorious by the name of the Secondary's

Office in the city of London.

 2 Excrement; filth. s.w. dial.

 1847-78 HALLIW., Jakes..applied in Devon to any kind of filth or

litter. 1880 in East & West Cornw. Glossaries. 1886 in ELWORTHY W.

Somerset Word-book.

 3 attrib. and Comb., as jakes door, jakes-like adj.; jakes-barreller,

jakes-farmer, jakes-man, a man employed to clean out privies; so jakes-

farming; jakes-house = jakes.

 1596 NASHE Saffron Walden 155 Like a *iakes barreller and a Gorbolone.

 1557-8 Louth Rec. (1891) 110 One locke to the *Jakes dore.

 1591 PERCIVALL Sp. Dict., Privadero, a *iakes farmer. A. 1618 SYLVES-

TER Tobacco Battered 267 Iakes-farmers, Fidlers, Ostlers, Oysterers.

1639 HORN & ROB. Gate Lang. Unl. lviii. f624 The common draught-

house..which the jakes-farmer..makes cleane.

 1577 tr. Bullinger's Decades (1592) 890 A doonghill God,..a god of the

*iakeshouse.



 1606 SYLVESTER Du Bartas II. iv. I. David 1251 Flames from his eies,

from's mouth coms *Iakes-like fumes.

 1630 DAVENANT Cruel Brother Wks. (1673) 475 On that branch appears a

Hang-man, Then a *Jakes-man, then, a Tinker.



And for john:



 d (With lower-case initial.) A lavatory, water-closet. slang

(chiefly U.S.).

 1735 Harvard Laws in W. Bentinck-Smith Harvard Bk. (1953) 146 No

freshman shall mingo against the College wall or go into the fellows'

cuzjohn. 1932 Amer. Speech VII. 333 John, johnny, a lavatory. 1946 J.

EVANS Halo in Blood xvi. 181, I..made a brief visit to the john. 1959 C.

MACINNES Absolute Beginners 54 `You poor old bastard,' I said to the

Hoplite, as he sat there on my john. 1972 Last Whole Earth Catalog (Por-

tola Inst.) 247/3 Every time you take a dump or a leak in a standard

john, you flush five gallons of water out with your piddle. 1973 Black

World June 19 They gave me my Status Symbol The key to the white Locked

John.



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 11:01:21 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



On Thu, 16 Feb 1995, Bruce Gelder wrote:



   Is anyone familiar with the use of the term "jakes" (or "jake" or "jake

   house") to mean a privy or a toilet? The OED has it from c1530 on, but

   almost all of DARE's contemporary evidence for it comes from Roman Catholic

   clergymen! Is it more widespread than that? If you know it, please tell me

   where and when you heard it. Thanks.



As a kid attending a boarding school, i heard the expression "jakes" used

to refer to the john.



That goes back to 1942-4. My father was also familiar with the term and

used it. I suspect he got it from the same kind of source. He was born

in1901.

Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 325-3005



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 19:48:22 EST

From:  Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: Derivation of Jake



My assumption has always been that Jake is a nickname for Jacob rather

than James or John, but diachronic onomatologist needs to sign on and

give us the scoop.



Michael Montgomery

U of South Carolina



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 21:08:58 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: ADS Annual Meeting



If you're a member of the American Dialect Society, next week's mail will

bring you a newsletter with the following announcement. . . .



American Dialect Society

ANNUAL MEETING 1995

Chicago - December 27-30

CALL FOR PAPERS

Deadline: March 20

For the last time, ADS will make its annual home-away-from-home next door to

the Modern Language Association this year. The city is Chicago (where we

will also return in January 1997 for our first Annual Meeting with the

Linguistic Society); our familiar new home-away-from-home is the all-suite

Barclay Chicago-familiar because we stayed there in 1990, new because they're

spending $5 million this year to renovate it for us. Our rate is $79 a night,

single or double occupancy, including full breakfast buffet. Future issues

will tell you more about it, but you don't have to wait; to make sure of your

place you can phone now, (800) 621-8004 or 312/787-6000, for reservations;

ask for the American Dialect Society rate.

Send abstracts to Executive Secretary Allan Metcalf (address on cover) by

March 20. You are encouraged to make a proposal even if you do not have a

paper fully developed.

Please specify whether you need audio-visual equipment, and whether you

prefer our independent sessions (at the Barclay) or our one session at MLA

(requires MLA membership by April 1). Proposals are invited on all topics,

but there are special opportunities in Dialect Obsolescence and Names.

Dialect Obsolescence

Vice president and program chair Walt Wolfram writes: "We will host a special

program on dialect obsolescence. Papers on moribund dialects or obsolescent

dialect forms are heartily encouraged. This session is planned in recognition

of the fact that many dialects of 'safe' languages are endangered, but

endangered dialects have largely been excluded from the language endangerment

canon.

"Several speakers have already agreed to represent different moribund dialect

situations: Salikoko Mufwene (Gullah), Garland Bills (Spanish dialects in the

Southwest), Guy Bailey (obsolescent forms in the South), and Natalie

Schilling-Estes and yours truly (Outer Banks dialects).

"If there is sufficient interest, we will propose to publish a collection on

dialect obsolescence in the United States, either as a special issue of

American Speech or an independent publication. Let's make sure that moribund

dialects threatened with extinction from encroaching varieties of 'safe'

languages are not cast aside as linguists rally to preserve endangered

languages."

Names and Dialect

As usual, the American Name Society will share our hotel and meeting dates.

As unusual-in fact, for the first time-ADS and ANS will jointly sponsor one

or more sessions for presentations of interest to members of both societies.

Please note if you would like your paper considered for an ADS-ANS combined

session.

Please remember the deadline: March 20!



- Allan Metcalf    AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 21:54:38 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: All the news thats fit to print



If your appetite is whetted by the ADS-L tidbits of information about

meetings, new words, new books, journals, committees, colleagues -- you won't

want to miss the full in-depth battery-free presentation of everything you

wanted to know about the current activities of members of the American

Dialect Society, in the brand-new Newsletter of the American Dialect Society

Vol 27 No 1. It will be back from the printer this Friday February 17 (yes,

sorry, a little late for a January issue), and immediately in the first-class

mail for all members of the Society, who can expect to get it in the week of

the 20th.

 What? You're not a member? Well, I'll send you this issue as a sample,

along with a membership invitation, if you'll send me your s-mail address so

the Postal Service can bring you the 16-page compendium.

 Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Feb 1995 22:50:55 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



 My assumption has always been that Jake is a nickname for Jacob rather

 than James or John, but diachronic onomatologist needs to sign on and

 give us the scoop.



Speaking of diachronic onomatologists, can anyone recommend a good source for

records on the developments of personal names, e.g. how frequently a given

name was bestowed (in the U.S.) at a particular

point in time (I'm trying to track down some information

pertaining to the mid-nineteenth century in particular), differentiated by sex

of namee?  thanks.

               Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1995 to 16 Feb 1995

************************************************





From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Fri Feb 17 23:12:07 1995

Received: from Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (walt.cs.msstate.edu [130.18.208.30]);

      by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP);

      id XAA26634; Fri, 17 Feb 1995 23:12:06 -0600

Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.0s-FWP);

	  id AA06460; Fri, 17 Feb 95 23:11:57 CST

Message-Id:  9502180511.AA06460[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Walt.CS.MsState.Edu 

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)

  with BSMTP id 9538; Sat, 18 Feb 95 00:10:17 EST

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 0095; Sat, 18 Feb 1995 00:02:06 -0500

Date:   Sat, 18 Feb 1995 00:02:05 -0500

Sender: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Reply-To: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1995 to 17 Feb 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Status: R



There are 9 messages totalling 151 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Derivation of Jake (6)

 2. All the news thats fit to print

 3. jakes (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 08:25:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



The great American guru on names (including the sorts of quantitative and

historical information Larry seeks) is Ed Lawson, emeritus, Department of

Psychology, SUNY-Fredonia, Fredonia, NY 14063. Sorry, I have no e-mail or

phone information, but NAMESers who read this can, I am sure, supply more.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:22:08 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



Okay, so Jake/Jacob became associated with toilets; how then did Jake, the

toilet, become a slang synonym for okay or all right, as in "everything is

Jake," a term I remember from my youth but my younger colleague (early

thirties) never heard of? Or did that come pouring out of the bottle with "jake

leg" rum?



Just curious.



Jerry (whose slangs uses we probably already are aware of)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:28:53 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: All the news thats fit to print



Allan: Yes, please send newsletter, etc., to:



Prof. Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College

501 E. Monroe St.

Franklin, IN 46131-2598



Thanks.



Jerry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 09:33:19 -0800

From:  Judith Rascoe  boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



--works on onomatology



There are two books by Leslie Dunkling that are good on the subject of first-name frequency in England and America too: FIRST NAMES FIRST and THE GUINNESS BOOK OF NAMES. The latter has an extensive bibliography; the former has lots of lists of the fifty

most popular names, every 25 years or so, for boys and girls, in England and America, etc. Dunkling has written many books on this subject.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:19:11 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



"Jakes" from French "Jacques" is logical, and the English nickname

"Jack" is obviously derived from French "Jacques." Now, can anyone

tell me why "Jack" is a nickname in English for "John" rather than

for "James," its translation from the French? Just wondering...

                        Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 15:37:06 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



Would the person who posted the note about jakes and Queen Elizabeth

please send me a copy. I deleted too fast.

Thanks,

Ron Rabin

Bflo State College

rabinrl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snybufaa.cs.snybuf.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 14:15:49 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: jakes



There is a small book which may be relevant to the discussion of "jakes"=

outhouses. My grandparents had a copy and it might be around somewhere:



Greer, William Royal. Gems of American architecture. (embellishments by

Charles E. Calder) [St. Paul : Brown & Bigelow, 1935]. (reprinted 1975?

by the American Life Foundation, Watkins Glen, N.Y.)



The Library of Congress subject heading would be, I guess, Outhouses--Humor.

I remember that it contained virtually every slang and euphemistic term

for outhouses then current. If I can locate the book, I'll post a list of

them--if there is an interest.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 16:51:42 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



  Would the person who posted the note about jakes and Queen Elizabeth

  please send me a copy. I deleted too fast.



This request reminded me to remind y'all that logs of list postings are

available via ftp at ftp.msstate.edu in pub/archives/ADS, via www at

http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS, and via gopher at gopher.msstate.edu

(#3 on first menu, #1 on second menu).



The logs are for whole months except for the current month. There are

daily logs for the current month. I usually put the daily log for the

previous day in place every morning pretty early -- before 5:30 a.m. on

MWF, a little later than that other days. This means, of course, that

the posting being asked about right now isn't available yet. It won't

be there until tomorrow morning.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Feb 1995 21:40:35 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Derivation of Jake



Ron Rabin asks:

  Would the person who posted the note about jakes and Queen Elizabeth

  please send me a copy. I deleted too fast.



And Natalie Maynor observes:

This request reminded me to remind y'all that logs of list postings are

 available via ftp at ftp.msstate.edu in pub/archives/ADS, via www at

 http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS, and via gopher at

 gopher.msstate.edu

 (3 on first menu,

 1 on second menu).



And as the person who posted on jakes and Bess, I can only applaud the

observation, since I preserved the posting on neither sending it out nor

getting it back. (Let me take the opportunity to commend Natalie and whoever

else was involved in setting up the ADS front page and archive, which I just

surfed for the first time myself on www.)



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1995 to 17 Feb 1995

************************************************







There is one message totalling 17 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pickle- low party



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Feb 1995 14:38:47 -0500

From:  dorrill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SELU.EDU

Subject: Re: pickle- low party



    I'd like to support Barbara Hill Hudson's message in re piccolo

and note that that usage was not limited to African-American speakers.

My father (1915-1959) was a juke-box operator in Orangeburg, S.C. and

always referred to the machines as piccolos. He was known as the "piccolo

man." His locations were about half white and half black. For us, it was

 purely an oral usage: I don't remember ever seeing the word written

down.



George Dorrill

dorrill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]selu.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Feb 1995 to 18 Feb 1995

************************************************







There is one message totalling 10 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Good news



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Feb 1995 18:27:04 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Good news



Thanks for the request! A copy of the newsletter (with other information) is

on its way to you.

Best wishes - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Feb 1995 to 19 Feb 1995

************************************************







There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Eh? What's this good news?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Feb 1995 17:45:50 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Eh? What's this good news?



My "good news" message to one individual yesterday was inadvertently posted

to the whole ADS-L.  I apologize for cluttering your mailbox.

 But in case you're curious, it was a reply to a request for a copy of the

latest issue of the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society. ADS members

will get their copies by first-class mail this week. As I previously

announced, others are welcome to ask for a sample. - Allan Metcalf

  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Feb 1995 to 20 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 2 pl

 2. jakes

 3. DARE Queries in NADS 27.1 (2)

 4. "different than"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Feb 1995 00:08:43 -0600

From:  "James C. Stalker"  stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



A late entry in this discussion. I have not been reading my email for

awhile, but just finished the long and interesting discussion of 2nd plural,

"you guys." I have followed this usage in Michigan for some 20 years now.

When I was recently arrived, it was gender specific. "Guy" was male,

singular or plural, in all contexts. Within these twenty years, "you guys"

became the generic, non-gender marked plural. When I ask my classes, hence

reported data, they are willing to accept you guys as including males and

females and for groups which are all female. They still will not accept

"guy" (sg) as female in any context. "Guys" can be all female, as in "Let's

go guys." Consulting with the even younger set, namely my soon to be 18 year

 old

son, he allows that guys or you guys is non-gendered, but that he would

address an older group (like his teachers) using guys only in very relaxed

situations, so for him it seems to be strongly  +informal . It is not the

gender which is an issue, but the formality. You guys is too informal to

use when addressing the other world, adults.



Clearly second plurals arouse interest. The data from the Collective

Unconscious (whether recovered or not) seems to clearly indicate that we are

psychologically in need of a singular and plural  you  and that we will have

one (or two or three), depending on what yous guys want, as they say (or

usta say) in Wisconsin.

!

                                                                  

   James C. Stalker stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu or stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

  Department of English 517/355 1781 Home 517/336 7118

     Michigan State University

        

                                                                  



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Feb 1995 23:57:45 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: jakes



Cathy Bodin asks:

  "Jack" is obviously derived from French "Jacques." Now, can anyone

  tell me why "Jack" is a nickname in English for "John" rather than

  for "James," its translation from the French? Just wondering...



The usual(?) explanation is with the diminutive suffix -kin:

Jan-kin / Jon-kin   Jack / Jock.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Feb 1995 12:41:35 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



LEFT--as in "I got bus-left." I've heard this expression in Milledgeville

in something like "After we got bus-left, the principal had to come pick us

up."



LITTLE--meaning junior, son, etc. I have a friend from Dublin, GA, with a

name that he doesn't like, a name he shares with his father and also his

grandfather, I believe. At any rate, my friend goes by a nickname, "Rock";

when he is queried about his father's name he always jokes: "Well, he's

Big Rock, and I'm Little Rock." The announcement is followed by laughter

and a change of subject.



PACK, PACKINGHAM--liquor made from molasses. In the Milledgeville area, a

liquor store is called a PACKAGE store. I have asked people why it is so

called, but all I get is guesses about the need to put liquor in a package

before it can be taken out of the store. In regard to this concern, I

remember the look of horror when I insisted on walking out the Piggly

Wiggly with a naked twelve pack. However, I wonder if PACKAGE is somehow

related to this PACK.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Feb 1995 17:59:06 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: "different than"



    A general query:

Can anyone provide a chronology of "different than" in American English?

I have observed it to be highly geographical and chronological: few

over 50, at least in the mid-Atlantic, and fewer Southerners yet would

say anything but "different from," on the model of the verbal expression

"this differs from that."

    I thought James Baldwin's "Go Tell It On The Mountain" (1950?)

contained the earliest printed mention of "different than" but later

found an earlier work, whose name I can't remember.

    Can anyone shed some light?   --Cathy Bodin cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msmary.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Feb 1995 19:39:34 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



  LITTLE--meaning junior, son, etc. I have a friend from Dublin, GA, with a

  name that he doesn't like, a name he shares with his father and also his

  grandfather, I believe. At any rate, my friend goes by a nickname, "Rock";

  when he is queried about his father's name he always jokes: "Well, he's

  Big Rock, and I'm Little Rock." The announcement is followed by laughter

  and a change of subject.



My mother's cousin was known as Little Aaron even after he became taller

than Big Aaron. (Little Aaron's legal name was Richard -- Aaron was his

"Jewish name"). 1950's; New York City and Ulster County, NY.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Feb 1995 to 22 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 22 messages totalling 451 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. DARE Queries in NADS 27.1 (5)

 2. "different than" (5)

 3. "little"

 4. different than

 5. Romance Plurals (2)

 6. "Different than"

 7. Software for teaching copy editing?

 8. buck and a half (3)

 9. Little DARE queries

 10. Delays

 11. ne/mla



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:11:19 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



LITTLE



In my family, this has led to an odd situation: my cousin (about my age

and size, 30-something, 5'7" or so) is Little Ruth and my grandmother (a

shrunken-up nonogenarian (sp?) who is barely 5 feet) is Big Ruth.



The titles are only added if we need to disambiguate.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:37:03 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: "different than"



     A general query:

 Can anyone provide a chronology of "different than" in American English?

 I have observed it to be highly geographical and chronological: few

 over 50, at least in the mid-Atlantic, and fewer Southerners yet would

 say anything but "different from," on the model of the verbal expression

 "this differs from that."

     I thought James Baldwin's "Go Tell It On The Mountain" (1950?)

 contained the earliest printed mention of "different than" but later

 found an earlier work, whose name I can't remember.

     Can anyone shed some light?   --Cathy Bodin cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msmary.edu



"Different than" has been in print fairly widely throughout the U.S. and

in Britain since either the 17th century or the 18th century, and self-

proclaimed usage experts have been condemning it ever since. I don't have

any citations with me right now, but I'll try to dig some up in the next

day or so, unless other people beat me to it.



Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 09:36:11 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: "different than"



     A general query:

 Can anyone provide a chronology of "different than" in American English?

 I have observed it to be highly geographical and chronological: few

 over 50, at least in the mid-Atlantic, and fewer Southerners yet would

 say anything but "different from," on the model of the verbal expression

 "this differs from that."

     I thought James Baldwin's "Go Tell It On The Mountain" (1950?)

 contained the earliest printed mention of "different than" but later

 found an earlier work, whose name I can't remember.

     Can anyone shed some light?   --Cathy Bodin cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msmary.edu





Webster's Dictionary of English Usage has a 1644 cite for different than.

Different to is earliests. Different from is in the middle. The

discussion of different than does not suggest the pattern above, but of

course they're talking about written texts, not spoken ones. It seems to

me that different from is rare in the Midwest in all contexts.



dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:46:03 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: "little"



 My mother's cousin was known as Little Aaron even after he became taller

 than Big Aaron. (Little Aaron's legal name was Richard -- Aaron was his

 "Jewish name"). 1950's; New York City and Ulster County, NY.



For what it's worth, my mother calls me Little Bruce to this day. I intensely

dislike it, but I've never told her. There's no Big Bruce, though, so perhaps

this is not the same usage. (I live in Salt Lake City; my mother was

raised in Central Utah and Southwestern Colorado.)



My father, who was raised in North Dakota's Red River Valley, calls me

simply Little Boy (which I dislike even more)--also to this day.



Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:35:46 -0500

From:  Anne McCoy  aam10[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



My husband, William A. Bramlette Jr., has always been known as "Little

Bill," even though he was taller than his dad by the time he was 15 and

even after his father died. They were Texans. I wonder

if this locution is a Southernism. Also, shouldn't the Jr. affixed to his

name now drop off?



Anne McCoy

Managing Editor

Columbia U. Press



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 10:40:23 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



More on the "Little" DARE query:



As a child in Queens (New York City), I was sent to a nursery

school class taught by a friend of the family. In discussions

at home, she was "big Vicki" to distinguish her, and I assume

I was "little Vicki" when she or her friends were talking about

me. I was three or four, so this would have been 1967; it may

be of interest because this woman and I are not related by blood.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 07:44:58 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: different than



WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE has slightly earlier American cites

than Baldwin and much earlier in British English.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:45:59 +0100

From:  Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner  more[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUGU.USAL.ES 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



LITTLE

A Nashvillian friend of mine (70) always refers to his cousin's daughter

A Nashvillian friend of mine always refers to his cousin (60 some) as Big

Carol and to her daughter (30) as Little Carol. His cousin also talks about

her daughter Little Carol.

her own daughter as Little Carol. It has nothing to do with size.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:09:55 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "different than"



I am not sure, but I think I had to be TAUGHT "different from" and may

have used "different than." I grew up in nw Illinois, on the

Northern-Midland border. Lots of Germans and a few Mexicans in our

community.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 11:20:28 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Romance Plurals



I don't know much about Romance languages, but I'm awful curious.

IT's this: Latin plurals --at least literary Latin plurals, which is all

I know--end in vowels, esp. -ae, -i, -a, plus a few others. Italian seems

to make its plurals somewhat like Latin, at least (I think) with -i, right?



So where does the -s plural in spanish and french come from (at least,

its written in French, and I presume was stil pronounced in OF)?



Also how are plurals formed in portugeuse? romanian? romansch? ARe

they like Latin or like Spanish?



If anyone knows another list where this would be a more appropriate

question, please forward. Thanks.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:46:19 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Romance Plurals



Dear Tim,



    Perhaps a better romanticist than I will respond to the list, but

the -s plurals in Spanish and Old Provencal, for example, come from the

accusative plural -s of Latin masculine and feminine first and second

declension nouns (viri vs. viros; rosae vs. rosas). The third declension

had an -s in both the masculine and feminine nominative and accusative

plurals (cives; urbes). Fourth and fifth declension masculines also had

nom./accus. plurals in -s (fructus; dies). These -s endings were extended

to other plurals by analogy. Indeed, to know why a particular noun has a

particular form, one usually has to know only the Latin accusative form in

order to derive it with some degree of predictability (granting knowledge

of a host of vocalic and consonantal changes from Latin to Spanish or

Provencal). The situation seems to be similar in French, although the

situation is complicated by the retention in Old French of the nominative

singular masculine ending derived from -us (as in filius to fils). Perhaps

a scholar of French could speak in more detail on this problem. By the

way, Italian uses -i plurals like Latin (here's one that seems to be

extended by analogy to a third declension noun: studente vs. studenti).



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 13:26:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: "Different than"



To answer/help Cathy Bodin:



Theodore Bernstein, in "The Careful Writer" (1965) quotes on page 140

several American uses of "different than" taken from Bergen Evans and

Cornelia Evans, "A Dictionary of Contemporary American Usage," New

York, Random House, 1957. Bernstein, through the Evanses, quotesWalter

Page, Cardinal Newman, and John Maynard Keynes.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:18:00 PST

From:  Chip Scanlan  chipscan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POYNTER.ORG 

Subject: Software for teaching copy editing?



A request for information:

A journalism professor is looking for computer software for teaching copy

editing, in particular,style book and headline writing exercises and other

copy editing functions. She recalls an interactive program available 5-6

years ago that allowed students using Word Perfect to load this program and

work thorugh a variety of exercises.

Thanks.



Chip Scanlan

Director, Writing Programs

The Poynter Institute for Media Studies



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 14:09:52 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: buck and a half



I have obviously been asleep or on another planet, because this was a new

one to me when it came up in hel class today (we were talking about

register): the expression buck and a half being used in a whole slew of

nonliteral senses:

    1. =$150 (context: a car repair)

    2. distance in yards to the putting green (about a buck eighty from

the flag)

    3. other sports usages I can't remember right now

    4. weight: he weighs about a buck seventy (= 170 lbs)

    5. a penny and a half (ante in a poker game, =$1.50)

    6 a minute and a half (we'll be back in a buck and a half, after

these messages -- TV sportscaster introducing commercial break)

    7. any other number in a nonliteral context between 100-199 (not

used, so my students tell me, with numbers greater than 199: you can't say

2 bucks eighty for a $280 repair)



acc. to the students, it seems to be a guy thing (guy, as in [+male]),

sports thing.



I assume this isn't new to you guys (guys, as in non-gendered).  Any other

examples?



Dennis

--









Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 16:44:55 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



I thought it was pretty standard when father and son or mother and daughter

had the same first names that the parent would be Big Jane or Big Dave

and the child (even in adulthood) would be Little Jane or Little Dave.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:53:45 EST

From:  CAG  CAG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AM.OUP-USA.ORG 

Subject: Re: Little DARE queries



   RE: "Little" DARE queries



   Well, if we're talking about *non-related persons* called "big"

   and "little" ...



   When I was about 16 yrs. old (in the suburbs of northern New

   Jersey in 1968) there were four Cathys in the neighborhood, of

   which I was one. Two of the Cathys were about 4 or 5 yrs. old and

   the fourth was the mother of one of the little girls -- and she

   was at least 28 yrs of age.



   There were several children of all ages in the 'hood and, among

   them, they named the four of us: One little Cathy was called

   "Cathy;" her mother was, of course, called Mrs. Mahoney; the other

   little girl was named "Cass" by her brother who lisped -- and this

   name for her was picked up by everyone -- and I, by extension,

   became "Big Cass," much to my embarrassment due to my blossoming

   teenage figure. But it was remarkable how the kids' names for all

   of us caught on and were used by *everyone* -- kids and adults

   alike -- all the time.



   Cathy Guldner

   Oxford University Press

   cag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oup-usa.org



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 17:38:45 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Delays



If some of you have been wondering about the slowness of list mail in

recent months (and getting worse), it's because of a net crisis. I

won't bore you with the details -- it has to do with things like the

impending death of bitnet, the slow VM interbit mechanism (for sending

listserv mail to internet addresses), and the dumping of even more interbit

transfer duties onto the already severely overloaded UGA mainframe. All

kinds of pessimistic predictions have been flying aroung the net, some

convinced that UGA's mainframe is going to choke to death any day now.

Just thought I should let you know that it's not your imagination or your

own system. Nor is ADS-L the only list suffering from the enormous delays.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:41:48 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: ne/mla



If anyone has an email address or a contact phone number for

the NE/MLA, would you give it to me? Thanks



simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 18:51:33 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "different than"



Merriam-Webster's WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE (1989) has a nice

piece on "different from, than, to". British English still uses "different

to." The article points out that "different from" is first attested in

Shakespeare's COMEDY OF ERRORS (1593). The first objections to "different

than" were raised in 1770.



All dialectologists (and others who are concerned with usage) should have a

copy of this valuable resource. The entries are rather full, with a history

of each usage item, including references to squabbles. The entries are

based on the extensive Merriam-Webster citation files and include info from

OED. I'm not selling the book, just giving scholars a lead on good source

information.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 19:59:54 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "different than"



  Merriam-Webster's WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE (1989) has a nice

  [....]

  All dialectologists (and others who are concerned with usage) should have a

  copy of this valuable resource. The entries are rather full, with a history



When I was trying to find historical information on "ain't" a few years

ago, I found _Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_ by far the most useful

resource.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 22:50:11 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: buck and a half



Where I've especially hear this usage, consistent with your informants,

Dennis, is in the lingo of the SportsCenter guys ([+male]; I can't remember

any of the female hosts using it) in contexts like "He's hitting a buck fifty"

(=.150, i.e. for the non-initiates, or those of you who aren't old enough to

remember the days before the game of "baseball" had fallen into desuetude, 3

hits in every 20 at bats). I'm not familiar with some of the other contexts

of use you(r informants) cite, but most of them would be interpretable as

extensions of the batting average context.



Larry



P.S. (speaking of "(you) guys")--Thanks to everyone who posted on that topic;

the printout of the download of that colloquy was useful to the student in my

"Langauge, Sex, and Gender" course who put together an oral presentation on the

distribution of those items.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:21:35 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: buck and a half



P.S. On "buck and a half": It might be worth noting that what I think of as

the ESPN English use of this expression is indeed the usage that shows up in

most of the other cases Dennis cites (e.g. weight--Deion Sanders weighs a buck

seventy [= 170 pounds] soaking wet, etc.), I think there's a more general

phenomenon illustrated by some of the money examples, since the restriction

Dennis observes (that these metaphorical extensions work only for contexts

between 100-199) doesn't hold for the cases where a sum involving a three

digit amount is presented as if it were 100 times less. Consider the old

nickel bag of dope (=$5.00), or a poker context where someone bets "30 bucks"

(=$3000). There's no restriction here to "a buck ___", and of course the

contexts aren't metaphorical in the same sense as weight, batting average,

time, or distance to the pin. Rather, there seems to be the tendency to pretend

you're talking peanuts as you toss those sums around. (I suspect a nickel bag

can also bring or cost $500 in the right context.)



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 1995 to 23 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 295 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. buck and a half (3)

 2. DARE Queries in NADS 27.1

 3. "different than"

 4. "little" (2)

 5. you guys

 6. Looking for some useful arguments (2)

 7. the mail & thanks; -left

 8. Per Judge Ito -- 60 major dialects of Spanish

 9. Romance Plurals



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 22:58:36 -0600

From:  Frank Mark R  mrf546t[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIC.SMSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: buck and a half



On Thu, 23 Feb 1995, Larry Horn wrote

 There's no restriction here to "a buck ___", and of course the

  contexts aren't metaphorical in the same sense as weight, batting average,

  time, or distance to the pin. Rather, there seems to be the tendency to

 pretend

  you're talking peanuts as you toss those sums around. (I suspect a nickel bag

  can also bring or cost $500 in the right context.)

 

  Larry

 

  QUIT

 



I think the idea of talking peanuts also covers examples I've heard

concerning prison sentences: a five year term called a nickel, a ten year

term called a dime. is there a history in English of the dimunuation of

amount/time?



--Mark Frank



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 21:19:53 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries in NADS 27.1



I almost hate to relate this, but it is TOO JUICY. My colleage relates

the story of his best friend in college, who was Little Dud Koch, son of,

you got it, Big Dud Cock! (Dudley, of course.)



On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



  On Wed, 22 Feb 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:

 

    LITTLE--meaning junior, son, etc. I have a friend from Dublin, GA, with a

    name that he doesn't like, a name he shares with his father and also his

    grandfather, I believe. At any rate, my friend goes by a nickname, "Rock";

    when he is queried about his father's name he always jokes: "Well, he's

    Big Rock, and I'm Little Rock." The announcement is followed by laughter

    and a change of subject.

 

  My mother's cousin was known as Little Aaron even after he became taller

  than Big Aaron. (Little Aaron's legal name was Richard -- Aaron was his

  "Jewish name"). 1950's; New York City and Ulster County, NY.

 

  Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Feb 1995 23:24:27 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: "different than"



ditto Tim's comment for me. Growing up in LA of Arkie parentage, I knew

different than and had to be taught different from.



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:15:51 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: "little"



In ND in the early 70's, my boyfriend was known as big John or

BJ. I became known as LBJ (Little Big John). Being known

as Little Rock has the same humorous ring as being known as LBJ

(or tiresome if you're the recipient).

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 07:21:22 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: you guys



Since it's come up again, a movie cite I noticed since

the discussion. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, our hero says

to Buffy, "You're the guy. You're the Chosen Guy." Buffy

is, of course, a girl. Buffy says something like, "I don't

WANT to be the Chosen One." The kids watching didn't repeat

these lines in unison as they did many of the campier lines.

They didn't comment at all--and I didn't ask. It didn't sound

quite right to me, but I also don't remember noticing it

the several other times the movie has shown on the home video.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 08:58:21 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little"



 In ND in the early 70's, my boyfriend was known as big John or

 BJ. I became known as LBJ (Little Big John). Being known

 as Little Rock has the same humorous ring as being known as LBJ

 (or tiresome if you're the recipient).

 --

 Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

 "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                         -Clifford Geertz



--which reminds me of some friends in their late sixties in north Texas who

both share the name _Jack_: this happily married couple is known as

"He-Jack" and "She-Jack."







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:46:22 -0500

From:  Gregory Roberts  robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: buck and a half



My father (mid 40's) who lives in Illinois uses 'buck eighty' (180) or the

like for his bowling scores.



Greg Roberts



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 10:06:34 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Looking for some useful arguments



Folks,



  Can anyone suggest an argument that will convince copyeditors

(of whom I am one, but a somewhat atypical one) that we/they can't

decide to change the language, and neither can an ad agency or

the US congress, because there are a half billion speakers of English,

and we're only a few hundred people on the copyediting mailing list?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 09:46:16 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: the mail & thanks; -left



Looking for something else in the gopher archive, I discovered

a comment on 'piccolo' that I never received. Moral: if you

want to make sure you have all of a thread, go back and read

the archive. And a blanket thanks to all who made this one

fairly clear.



On '-left'. Memory attests fairly reliably to "You're gonna

get bus-left." Davie County, N.C. ca. 1960



--

Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 12:15:24 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Per Judge Ito -- 60 major dialects of Spanish



Pardon the interuption, but I think someone asked a question similar to this a

few weeks back.



Prior to the interview of Rosa ? (neighbor of OJ who claims to have seen OJ's

white Bronco parked on the street during the time of the murders) in Judge

Ito's court today, Ito mentioned that there were 60 major dialects of Spanish

and he wanted to be sure that the interpreter could converse clearly with the

lady from El Salvador.



So how many dialects does English have? And how do you count them? How do you

arrive at a cutoff point and declare, nope that just missed the "major" list?



And did you know that in Spanish "Judge Ito" means "little judge"? (per D.

Letterman).



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 18:58:16 -0500

From:  "J. Russell King"  JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: buck and a half



   An analogous use of "buck" at my workplace, The New York Times, where

the length of an article is sometimes so expressed: a story is "a buck and a

quarter" when it is 1.25 columns long (about 25 inches. A half-column story

is "50 cents."

   This usage is fading, however, with the retirement of older editors.

   JRKing



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 19:33:35 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



Vicki Rosenzweig writes,



    Can anyone suggest an argument that will convince copyeditors

  (of whom I am one, but a somewhat atypical one) that we/they can't

  decide to change the language, and neither can an ad agency or

  the US congress, because there are a half billion speakers of English,

  and we're only a few hundred people on the copyediting mailing list?

 



Vicki's question is extremely important, for it resonates in several

contexts. An answer to her particular question requires

looking at the assumptions/implications of her question and the

motives/goals of her copyeditor audience. Her question assumes

 that "we/they can't decide to change the language, and neither can

an ad agency or the US congress." Yet language change occurs, and

the change is connected in some way to some innovation by some member

of some social network. Ad agencies HAVE affected the lexical

phraseology of contemporary speakers of English, and some of those

lexical changes will stick. Just do it.



In a larger critical sense (a la Foucault), the discourse of

consumerism, emanating from ad agencies, affects not only our

language, but also controls the subject positions within

which we find ourselves.



Language planning--shaping attitudes and behaviors of language

use--goes on every day in the educational institutions of this

country as well as others. Even though these educators may not

change what people do in specific cases, they certainly shape

what people think of what they do. And in many cases we do

change what people do.



So the basic assumption of Vicki's question may turn out

to be wrong.



Even though there may be more like a billion users of English

for whatever purposes, the language behavior of a few can have

a significant impact on the norms of the language (ALL OF THIS

QUESTION RELATES TO STYLE, NOT THE UNDERLYING REPRESENTATIONAL

SYSTEM THAT MAKES LANGUAGE POSSIBLE) in certain formal public

contexts. So that brings us back to the goals of copyeditors.

If they want to ferret out especially pernicious sexist

language, I am all for them. Their specific edittings may not

change behavior, but the discussion of the issue will have some

effect over time. And as a result, the language may change.



It really sounds like these copyeditors favor something that

Vicki doesn't agree with. If she were more forthcoming,

some one of us might could be more helpful.



Terry



=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Feb 1995 21:42:06 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Romance Plurals



If I remember correctly from my courses in the history of French, the -s

plurals come from the Latin accusative plural; it is the nominative plural

that end in vowels.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1995 to 24 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 198 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. long time no see (4)

 2. changing the language

 3. Looking for some useful arguments

 4. "little" and "jr"

 5. Software for teaching copy editing?

 6. copyeditors/teachers

 7. Wrong time no sea



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 00:09:34 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: long time no see



Anybody know the history of the phrase "long time no see"?

What other pidginesque phrases do we use?



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 05:56:14 -0800

From:  Judith Rascoe  boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US 

Subject: Re: long time no see



"Long time no see" is a literal translation of a Chinese (that is, Mandarin)

phrase.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 08:41:06 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: changing the language



In a sense it can be done. Many rukes of usage were introduced, e.g. the

less/fewer distinction. At one time veven spelling could be changed,

e.g. dette-  debt, but that no longer seems possible.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 10:56:55 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Re: long time no see



 Anybody know the history of the phrase "long time no see"?

 What other pidginesque phrases do we use?

 

 Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



"No tickee, no washee." With apologies to modern Asian-Americans:

early Chinese settlers in the U.S. worked in a limited range of

occupations, one of them being laundries (there were jokes--from

the Marx Brothers movies?--about Chinese hand laundries being

places where they would wash one's dirty hands, instead of the

literal meaning, places where they would wash one's clothes by hand).

"No tickee, no washee", as I understand it, alludes to the Chinese

laundry proprietor being unwilling to give you your clothes back

if you didn't give him the laundry slip (claim check).





Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 12:50:39 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



A copyediting "thing" in these parts is the insistence of some (non-native,

say natives) editors who isnist that the modifier must be OZARKS, not

OZARK. E.g., "Ozarks culture," not "Ozark culture." These editors

are irritated by phrases like "Ozark Mountains," local usage notwithstanding.

They argue that the region is "the Ozarks," so the -s should be retained.

Phone-book entries indicate that the names of older businesses will have

forms like "Ozark Plumbing Company," whereas more-recently-founded

companies will use "Ozarks" in the name. I think there's a real trend

here, not just fussiness of editors, though the editors are generally

more attuned to their own attitudes than to what the general public is doing.

On occasional hand-lettered signs one finds "Ozark's Plumbing," and I

remember seeing the apostrophed form in a phone book in SW Mo.

Is something similar going on in other areas --e.g., Adirondaks, Poconos?

Wouldn't happen with "Rocky," so this isn't a simple little item.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 14:10:14 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: long time no see



I'm not sure whether "long time no see" has roots in Chinese Pidgin

English (the most likely source of Sinicisms into English), but if it

does Cantonese of ca. 1800 would be the Chinese source. In Mandarin,

the phrase referred to is "hao/ jiu^ bu jian\" (Pinyin w/rough tone

marks), which lit. translates as [good-long-not-see].

    Perhaps more to the point, "long time no see" is perfectly

colloquial Jamaican Patwa (Jamaican English Creole, if you like),

occurring in popular and folk-songs as well as in conversation. No

Chinese roots there, I'm pretty certain! I'm not sure whether it

occurs colloquially in other English-related creoles or pidgins--

anyone know? but it need not be qualified as "pidginesque", it's

full-blooded creole!

    If anyone can find a reference in a slang or phrase dictionary

(my own shelves being pretty bare of such things), I'd be very

interested to know about citations.

    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 14:25:52 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: "little" and "jr"



The most famous "little" I know of is Little John, who was famously

not little at all, but there it DID have to do with size (punning by

antonym), I guess-- or was there a Big John in the Merry Men?

    Someone asked if "Jr." drops off a name after the death of the

"Sr." (which in turn doesn;'t exist before the birth of the "Jr.").

But I don't think so, necessarily: it's equivalent to (referentially,

though certainly not stylistically!) "II" or "the 2nd". My mother's

paternal grandfather was Edwin King Lumpkin; her dad was Edwin King

Jr. (or I suppose "the 2nd" but nobody ever seems to have called him

that); my Uncle Ed is thus "the 3rd" (but again...); and his son is

Edwin King Lumpkin the 4th. Being easy-going fellows none of them ever

wanted to be called anything but "Ed"-- or "King", which is what my

cousin is called to distinguish him from Ed, his dad, instead of

Little Ed. My older brother is a Jr. too but it looks like he's on his

way to having a third daughter, so it may stop there-- unless there's

an accident, no Kenneth Gilbert Patrick III is on-line...

    --peter



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 14:31:21 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Software for teaching copy editing?



Chip:

   I have been using a headline-writing software program for the past few

years that does headline counting and headline writing. It is not a very

sophisticated program, and we have yet to get it to work off of our network,

but it does put copy-editing students through the paces of counting headlines

and writing them (to fit, since the program rejects any heads that are too long

or too short!)

   It is a free-standing program, so it probably wouldn't work directly

through WordPerfect. The version we have is for IBM compats, although I think

they also had a version for Macs, but I'm not sure. Cost, as I recall, was

about $50 (again, I'm not completely sure).

  I got the program from: Communique

              1012 Chateau Court

              Blacksburg, VA 24060

  If you have any luck in finding better programs for headline writing, or,

for that matter, any programs at all that handle other copy-editing chores, I

would be most interested in hearing about them.

  Hope this information proves useful to you and/or copy-editing teacher

friend.

                Jerry Miller

                Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Feb 1995 14:38:36 -0500

From:  Alan Ainsworth  AINSWORTH_A[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HCCS.CC.TX.US 

Subject: copyeditors/teachers



I agree with much of what Terry Lynn Irons says in response to the problems

of changing language and I would like to broaden the question to ask what

it is that happens in writing and speech classrooms. Linguists say

that adults don't teach children language any more than adults teach them

how to walk.

What then do English and speech teachers do? Do they affect change?

And the copyediting that teachers/ editors do in conjuction with handbooks

written by copyeditors/teachers? What does that do?

All of that is even more complicated when language patterns have already

been developed that are not the patterns in the handbooks, in

the teacher's idea of "proper English," etc. That few of us speak "proper

English" but shun the improper Engish of dialects in written documents

and in formal speech situations (i.e. job interviews) is important and

should be discussed, I think.



Alan Ainsworth

Instructor, English

Central College, Houston Community College System



AINSWORTH_A[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hccs.cc.tx.us



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 12:10:24 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Wrong time no sea



Eric Partridge (1977), _A Dictionary of Catch Phrases_

Two entries for  long time no see , p141a.

British & US since early 1900s, "Chinese pidgin"

Refers to: No can do, chop chop, no wanchee, no tickee no washee



                ---Wab.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Feb 1995 to 25 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 139 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Per Judge Ito -- 60 major dialects of Spanish

 2. computer-mediated discourse analysis

 3. "little" and "jr"

 4. the buck stops here

 5. Ozark philosophy

 6. Free books on writing



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 08:15:21 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Per Judge Ito -- 60 major dialects of Spanish



On Fri, 24 Feb 1995, Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO wrote:



  Ito's court today, Ito mentioned that there were 60 major dialects of Spanish

  and he wanted to be sure that the interpreter could converse clearly with the

  lady from El Salvador.

 

  So how many dialects does English have? And how do you count them? How do

 you

  arrive at a cutoff point and declare, nope that just missed the "major" list?

 

Well, I don't think we havea satisfactory definition of "dialect" yet,

tho people are working on quantifying that. Setting that aside, American

English has, according to what we traditionally say in the text books,

five major regional dialects (e. New England, Inland Northern, North

Midland, South Midland, Southern), plus at least one varietiy of Black

English, plus various urban dialects like in NYC, plus Gullah, plus At

least one variety of Cajun, plus other foreign-languange influenced varieties

(e.g., Chicano). Some folks don't believe in Midland because its not

different enough from surounding varieties.



How many dialects in Great Britain? I don't know. Then there are

othernational and ethnic varieties, (South AFrican, Nigerian, Australian,

Indian, South African Indian,

and no doubt more). Pitcairn Island. Various pidgins and creoles not

mentioned in the above.



Answer: we don't know. A lot.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 01:13:16 CST

From:  Susan Herring  susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTAFLL.UTA.EDU 

Subject: computer-mediated discourse analysis



A page has been created on the World Wide Web containing information

about a one-day GURT presession on the theme



      "Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis"



to be held at Georgetown University on March 8, 1995. The page contains

a description of the presession theme, the presession program, abstracts,

and information about the presenters. It also contains information about

submitting manuscripts for publication in an upcoming special issue of the

_Electronic Journal of Communication_ on "Computer-Mediated Discourse

Analysis".



Anyone interested may view the page via the World Wide Web at:



  http://trill.berkeley.edu/guide-to-the-lab/Resources/People/CMC.html



Queries may also be directed to the presession organizer, Susan Herring,

at susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu



-----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:26:21 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



  The "Jr." problem could be solved in many cases by never using "Sr." to

designate the father in the twosome. I mean there would be "Joe Smith" and "Joe

Smith Jr." and that should suffice, especially since no one is actually named

Joe Smith Sr. on their birth certificate. It is merely a convenient way to make

sure someone understands that you are referring to the elder rather than the

younger Joe Smith, which is fine in conversation but totally unnecessary, in my

view, in written copy. Agree? Disagree?

  The question of dropping the Jr. once Sr. is deceased is a tricky one. If

Ken Griffey (Sr.) died tomorrow, would his son play baseball (if anyone plays

baseball ever again) as Ken Griffey? I doubt it; the recordbook-keepers would

have a fit--and so would the fans who missed Dad Griffey's obituary. I know in

auto racing (which I cover a great deal of) the Jr. sticks with the son for

life, regardless of the status of the Sr. Billy Vukovich Jr. always was

referred to that way, even though his father had died long before his son ever

raced (and even though the son's name was not the same as his father and

actually included no Jr.!). The case of Tony Bettenhausen Jr. was a little

different. He began racing as Tony Jr., even though his father's name was

Melvin Eugene Bettenhausen (he raced as "Tony") and his is Tony Lee

Bettenhausen. Eventually, though, right won out, and he generally is known as

Tony Lee these days.

  It seems to me the Jr. has to remain in effect even after the Sr. dies, at

least in sports--and probably politics, show business (i.e., Sammy Davis Jr.,

Will Rogers Jr.), etc., for the people who don't read the obituary columns. I

suppose it would be less important for us common folks, at least in

conversation (but it might be in obits?)

                   jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:58:11 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: the buck stops here



We have another fine new source to consult for items like "buck and a half."

See Jonathan Lighter's Historical Dictionary of American Slang, Vol. 1

(Random House, 1994).

- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 17:58:28 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Ozark philosophy



Is it not the case that count nouns, when used as attributives preceding

other nouns, often lose their countness? That is, can't one say pant leg, or

scissor blade? not to mention Ozark culture?

 See Webster's Dictionary of English Usage under _attributive_: "The norm

has been to have singular nouns used as attributives - billiards, for

instance, even lost its -s to give us billiard ball and billiard table. What

seems to be a fairly recent trend toward using plural attributives in

contemporary English has . . . raised a few eyebrows."

 So the copy editors may be eyebrow to eyebrow on this one.

- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:57:38 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Free books on writing



I'm about to give my publisher, Harcourt Brace, addresses to send free

examination copies of the 2 writing books I announced in the recent ADS

newsletter: the basic _Essentials of Writing to the Point_ and the

research-paper book _Research to the Point_ 2d ed. Contrary to everything

else (I think), these focus on essentials, not trivia. Though they are _not_

usage or grammar books, I think they reflect sane attitudes toward language,

and I would be very pleased to get your reactions.

 If you'd like to consider them for your teaching and would like copies,

send me a private e-mail message (not bothering ADS-L again).

  Thanks - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Feb 1995 to 26 Feb 1995

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 243 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Little"; different; Latin

 2. copies of Free books on writing

 3. "little" and "jr" (2)

 4. Long time, no see

 5. Looking for some useful arguments

 6. Free books on writing (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Feb 1995 21:21:28 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: "Little"; different; Latin



I can't think of anyone in my family called "Little N", but I have a cousin

(named after her mother) who was called "Baby Barbara" for a long time, at

least by those of us who hadn't seen her in a long time. In the twenty-odd

years since I saw her last, perhaps she has outgrown the handle.



Another cousin, son of Steve, was formerly "Stevie" and is now "Steven".



My ex-wife, in her early thirties, got tired of being Elsa and renamed

herself Rowan, taking the name of a child of our acquaintance (then about 5).

The child has occasionally referred to Rowan II as "Big Rowan".



Straying even further from the subject - I was once at a summer camp where

one of the two Kates was renamed Katie. And I heard of a Sarah in Italy

being nicknamed Saracca for distinction (acca = `h') - my informant said

`saracca' is a kind of beetle, though I can't find it in a small dictionary.



I was once in a club that had two members named Arthur.

The second was called Art Nouveau.



  --which reminds me of some friends in their late sixties in north Texas

  who both share the name _Jack_: this happily married couple is known as

  "He-Jack" and "She-Jack."



In a hospital where Mom once worked, she heard pages for "Doctor Mister

Doctor" and "Doctor Mrs Doctor".



--

  Webster's Dictionary of English Usage has a 1644 cite for different than.

  Different to is earliests. Different from is in the middle. [...]



Has "different with" ever been much used?



--

Tim Frazer asks:

  Latin plurals --at least literary Latin plurals, which is all

  I know--end in vowels, esp. -ae, -i, -a, plus a few others. Italian seems

  to make its plurals somewhat like Latin, at least (I think) with -i, right?



Masculine -i, feminine -e (from -ae) -- generally speaking.



  So where does the -s plural in spanish and french come from?



From the accusative case. Neuter nominative and accusative plural

Status: R



are always -a; masculine and feminine plurals in the five declensions

(noun classes) are:

    nominative -ae, -i, -es, -us, -es;

    accusative -as, -os, -es, -us, -es.

(The genitive, dative, ablative and vocative need not concern you.)



  If anyone knows another list where this would be a more appropriate

  question, please forward. Thanks.



There is a Latin list, but I dropped off it so long ago I doubt I could

come up with its address.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 15:43:46 CST

From:  Shih-Ping Wang  wsp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BDC.COM.TW 

Subject: copies of Free books on writing



Dear Allan Metcalf,



Could you send your Free books on writing?



(I don't know your e-mail address.)



Shih-ping Wang



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 08:00:37 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



Jerry Miller wrote:



   The "Jr." problem could be solved in many cases by never using "Sr." to

 designate the father in the twosome. I mean there would be "Joe Smith" and "Joe

 Smith Jr." and that should suffice, especially since no one is actually named

 Joe Smith Sr. on their birth certificate. It is merely a convenient way to make

 sure someone understands that you are referring to the elder rather than the

 younger Joe Smith, which is fine in conversation but totally unnecessary, in my

 view, in written copy. Agree? Disagree?



This would be fine if the reader could be assured that the convention was

being used consistently. In the absence of this assurance, however, I don't

think copy editors are doing any favors by allowing the designator to be

omitted. I say leave it on--the added clarity is well worth the tiny extra

effort.



   It seems to me the Jr. has to remain in effect even after the Sr. dies, at

 least in sports--and probably politics, show business (i.e., Sammy Davis Jr.,

 Will Rogers Jr.), etc., for the people who don't read the obituary columns. I

 suppose it would be less important for us common folks, at least in

 conversation (but it might be in obits?)



Where I work there used to be an Edward Cheadle, Sr., and an Edward Cheadle,

Jr. Once EC, Sr., retired, the "Jr." was dropped for the younger EC in all

company-wide references to him (spoken and written), even in his computer

log-on name (which had formerly included "jr").



For whatever that's worth.



Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:01:29 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Long time, no see



   There is an early article on pidgin English which talks about long

   time, no see; looke see; no can do; etc., which attributes all to

   Chinese. See Arno L. Bader, "The Anatomy of Living Language," in

   WORDS, vol. 4, no. 6 (September 1938), pp. 86-88.



   You might also look at Mamie Meredith's article in AMERICAN SPEECH of

   December 1929.



   There are also entries for look see in Fraser & Gibbons, SOLDIER &

   SAILOR WORDS & PHRASES (London: 1925); and F. C. Bowen, SEA SLANG, A

   DICTIONARY OF OLD-TIMERS' EXPRESSIONS AND EPITHETS (London: ca. 1930).

   Bowen labels the term as pidgin English of the China Coast.



   On a different track, Peter Tamony collected an early use of long time

   no see as a caption under an illustration showing two Indians on foot

   addressing a white scout on horseback. This example comes from

   William F. Drannan, THIRTY ONE YEARS ON THE PLAINS AND IN THE

   MOUNTAINS (Chicago: 1900), p. 580.



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 09:30:14 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



It seems to me fairly obvious that "the Ozarks" originated as shorthand

for "the Ozark Mountains" in a very common English pattern. Other

examples are abundant: Mr. and Mrs. Smith or the Smith Family --  the

Smiths; Jockey briefs --  Jockeys (cf. Dave Barry's column of Sunday,

3/26/95); nylon stockings --  nylons; etc. What would the copyeditors who

are irritated by "Ozark Mountains" suggest? "Ozarks Mountains"? How

about "Appalachians Mountains" and "Catskills Mountains"?! And if we can

say "The Rockies" even though we wouldn't be able to pluralize the

adjective "rocky," why wouldn't it happen there?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Sat, 25 Feb 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  A copyediting "thing" in these parts is the insistence of some (non-native,

  say natives) editors who isnist that the modifier must be OZARKS, not

  OZARK. E.g., "Ozarks culture," not "Ozark culture." These editors

  are irritated by phrases like "Ozark Mountains," local usage notwithstanding.

  They argue that the region is "the Ozarks," so the -s should be retained.

  Phone-book entries indicate that the names of older businesses will have

  forms like "Ozark Plumbing Company," whereas more-recently-founded

  companies will use "Ozarks" in the name. I think there's a real trend

  here, not just fussiness of editors, though the editors are generally

  more attuned to their own attitudes than to what the general public is doing.

  On occasional hand-lettered signs one finds "Ozark's Plumbing," and I

  remember seeing the apostrophed form in a phone book in SW Mo.

  Is something similar going on in other areas --e.g., Adirondaks, Poconos?

  Wouldn't happen with "Rocky," so this isn't a simple little item.

                               DMLance

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 11:20:56 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



No one seems to have pointed out that (as I learned once to my surprise)

apparently "Jr." is NOT equivalent to "II". If I remember it correctly,

"John Doe, Jr." is the son of "John Doe, Sr.," whereas "John Doe II" may

be a grandson or great-grandson, but not the son, of "Sr."



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 14:15:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: Free books on writing



Dear Allan Metcalf:



I would be interested in your books, the basic _Essentials of Writing

to the Point_ and the research-paper book _Research to the Point_ 2d

ed. I think the first one would get a good workout on a magazine such

as the one I copyedit, Electronic Products Magazine. I am curious to

know what your "sane attitudes toward language" are.



Here's my address:

Leonard Schiefer

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products

Hearst Business Publishing

645 Stewart Ave.

Garden City, NY 11530



Leonard Schiefer     lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Feb 1995 20:16:30 -0500

From:  Hazel Blumberg-McKee  hazelcb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORE.SYMNET.NET 

Subject: Re: Free books on writing



I remember that you were talking about distributing your books to

teachers who might want to use them in their classes. I don't fit into

that category; I'm a full-time freelance editor, indexer, proofreader,

researcher, and writer. However, if you feel that you could spare copies,

I would be eager to see your books. My snailmail address is



962 Richardson Road

Tallahassee, FL 32301



Many thanks!



Hazel Blumberg-McKee (hazelcb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]symnet.net)

"We must view with profound respect the infinite capacity of the human

mind to resist the introduction of useful knowledge."--Thomas Lounsbury



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Feb 1995 to 27 Feb 1995

************************************************



There are 4 messages totalling 116 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Grammar course

 2. Looking for some useful arguments

 3. Ozark(s)

 4. Long time, no see



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 08:47:43 -0600

From:  "Jeffrey H. Allen AXIS CONTRACT"  jhaaxis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAT.COM.LOCAL 

Subject: Grammar course



I am looking for a grammar book and/or course that can allow me to teach the

basics of grammar in a time frame of 4-6 hours, including hands-on exercise

time. The target group would have high school/first year college level

English skills but have worked in the business sector for many years and

have not necessarily continued reinforcing English skills through the college

education track.



The book/course must emphasize teaching the essentials of grammar (eg N,V,Adj,

Adv, Prep, articles, demonstratives, connectors, phrases, clauses, relatives,

comparative, superlative, etc) to technical writers who are neither English

nor foreign language specialists. I do not want a writing seminar or book

that aims at teaching typical business writing styles (memos, letters, faxes,

e-mail), vocabulary buildup, commonly confused homonyms, avoiding sexist

language, use of capitalization and punctuation, and the like. I need a real

grammar course that can review the essentials for this target group within

the time frame mentioned above.



Please send your suggestions directly to me at:



jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



OR



USCATRHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBMmail.com



Many thanks in advance,



Jeff Allen



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 10:42:35 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



The issue of "Ozarks" is more complex than Peter McGraw's response implies.

As well as we can determine, the word came from French explorers in

the late 1600s who wrote "aux arcs" on maps to indicate where the Arcansa

Indians lived and hunted. Liaison in French phonology would yield a

pronunciation of this abbreviation that would sound very much like "Ozarks,"*

which was the early English spelling. So "Ozark" is more like a folk

back-formation used in attributive positions where the "plural" ending

is not common in American English -- i.e., Ozark Mountains. All the toponyms

on official maps have "Ozark" in attributive position, as do business names

in the area. However, in recent decades, the -s form has come into use in

attributive position (Ozarks Conservation District, etc.). (*The final -s

in French is a further complication in the story.) Further, McGraw's

question about "Applachains Mountains" etc. points out that the anti-Ozark

copy-editors aren't so smart after all, though they may be following a local

trend. Every now and then I try to steer my mind toward this question but

haven't done systematic study. In British nomenclature we get "trades unions"

but "trade unions" in American English. I think the attributive -s form in

similar compounds is on the rise in American English, and the anti-Ozark

editors may be reflecting that trend. It's this latter trend that I haven't

done anything systematic on. How widespread/sporadic is the trend?

                               DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:54:41 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Ozark(s)



Recently I sent to our Speakers' Bureau a list of topics I would talk

about to interested community groups. One was "Listening to Grandma

Harp: Folk Speech in the Ozark and Appalachian Mountains."

The SB folks changed it to "Ozarks and Appalachian Mountains."



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 20:53:42 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Long time, no see



Readers interested in further sources on Chinese Pidgin English who

wish to consult reliable modern linguistic works might investigate:



Robert Hall (Jr., by the way) 1944, "Chinese Pidgin English grammar

and texts" in JAOS 64: 95-113 (Jrl of the Am. Oriental Soc.);



Philip Baker 1987, "Historical developments in Chinese Pidgin

English...", Jrl. of Pidgin & Creole Languages 2(2): 163-207.



The pidgin was used in coastal California into the 19th century, and

in Hong Kong until more recently (see K. K. Luke & J. C. Richards

1982, "English in Hong Kong: functions and status", English World-Wide

3(1):47-64).

    John Holm gives a brief summary of what is known (very

little having been written) in his standard reference work 'Pidgins

and Creoles', vol. 2.

    There has been a great deal learned about pidgins in general

since the earlier works cited in previous messages and it would be

surprising if they were entirely up-to-date in their attributions.

    The most detailed and careful work has been published in

German by w. Bisang (1985, 'Das chinesische pidgin-englisch', U. of

Amsterdam Area Studies no. 58) and A. Bauer (1975, 'Das Kanton-

Englisch:...' Frankfort, Peter Lang).

    As noted before on the list, some usages commonly attributed

to CPE are indeed relexified Chinese ("look-see" being simply Chinese

'kan-jian', "no can do" = 'bu ke-yi', "chop-chop"   Cant. 'chop-chop'

for "quickly"), but others which are said to be so are not so simple,

as Hall pointed out elsewhere ("Pidgin English and linguistic change",

1952, Lingua 3: 138-146).

    More needs to be done on CPE and its connection with both other

Pacific English- and Portuguese-related pidgins and creoles.



    --peter patrick



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Feb 1995 to 28 Feb 1995

************************************************





.