Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:41:19 MST

From: Tom Uharriet UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.SHS.NEBO.EDU

Subject: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie?



WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL!

But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny.



Tom Uharriet





In case you missed it, Dennis' explaination follows:



I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a

principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes'

'heavier' items go to the right.



For example, if sex prevailed, why is it



men and women



but



ladies and gentlemen



Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but

'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.'



When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes:



back and forth (3 and 4)



When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced

versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency



thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer)

etc...



So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me).



Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the

British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with

admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong

which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork'

if that is the order which prevails there.



Neat huh?



Of course, I don't know the distribution.











I have a question which is, admittedly,

a bit mundane for the likes of the

great intellectuals on this list,

but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it!



Has any work been done on a regional distribution

of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"?



A few colleagues of mine claim that they use

"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange.

Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says,

to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British."



Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome,

and you may forward them to me personally, if you like.

I'll post a summary if the information warrants it.



Thanks in advance!



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