Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Jan 1997 to 1 Feb 1997 ontent-Length: 5134 There are 4 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BEV-speaking children and reading 2. new orleans the big easy 3. apologies 4. two new pages ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:51:48 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: BEV-speaking children and reading Beverly Flanigan wrote: On a related topic: Someone on another list (CHILDES) was surprised and dismayed to hear Labov say (on NPR) that BEV-speaking children might have more difficulty than SAE speakers in learning to read and write. I can see how this would be disturbing to non-linguists, but I think we, as professional lingallers, should consider the following. (a) IF Labov made such a statement (and the contents of the related paper on his website indicate that the focus of his remarks may have been misinterpreted), he was (we would assume, knowing his work) basing his statements on years of empirical work. Obviously, any of us (placed in that kind of situation) would need to careful about what we said, but how it might be (mis)interpreted. (b) That being said, I only think it perfectly logical (linguistically) that the differences in a child's native dialect and the spoken standard being used to explain the writing system can cause problems in learning to read and write. I have a very vivid and specific memory of being taught to write by the phonics methods in the first grade (West Tennessee, 1969-70). My teacher showed a picture of a woman with a big hoop skirt behind her. The ribbon on the front of the dress made a "w" and the skirt in back an "h". Our teacher explained that this was the sound that words like "which" started with. Not to be confused with words like "witch". Well, maybe she understood and produced these sounds distinctively, but I was LOST; I didn't make the distinction when I spoke, and I certainly couldn't "hear" the distinction she was trying to describe. Of course, there are lots of spelling pecularities, silent letters, etc. in English spelling, but that's precisely the point. These were explained to us as "exceptions"; the "wh" was (whuz?) not. It seems that the more of these differences there were between the standard language and the native dialect of the child, the harder learning the spelling rules would be. Danny Long (who as a result of this trama still cain't spell werth a damm) (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 08:33:10 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: new orleans the big easy Why is New Orleans (called) The Big Easy? thanks, beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 11:39:24 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: apologies On Fri, 31 Jan 1997, Leanne Hinton wrote: Quoting Labov: While structural differences between AAVE and Standard English play a role in reading problems, he concludes that teacher attitudes toward the children and toward AAVE may be a stronger influence on reading and educational failure. Note that this is the same point that he made in his 1968 study of "Nonstandard Negro English" in New York City. Just a note to provide historical perspective. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 13:47:49 -0500 From: Mike Wagner conversa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IAC.NET Subject: two new pages My name is Mike Wagner and I am with Conversa Language Center in Cincinnati, OH. We sponsor two pages that would be of interest to international students. One of them is the "American University and English as a Second Language Information Service" page. This page provides information to international students about American university admissions and programs. Another is "Dear Christy," which is an advice column for international students. "Dear Christy" answers questions that international students may have about social and cultural issues at American universities. The "American University and English as a Second Language Information Service" page can be found at: http://www.iac.net/~conversa/S_homepage.html Dear Christy can be found at: www.dearchristy.com Please take a look. Thanks very much! Sincerely, Mike Wagner Conversa Language Center Cincinnati, Ohio ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jan 1997 to 1 Feb 1997 *********************************************** There is one message totalling 172 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Herb Caen; Slang for a Saturday ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 00:09:47 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Herb Caen; Slang for a Saturday HERB CAEN: Herb Caen ("Mr. San Francisco") died yesterday. He coined the word "beatnik." Two years ago, I visited San Francisco and I wrote to Mr. Caen about the title of his column, "Baghdad-by-the-Bay." He did indeed get it from O. Henry's New York, which was "Baghdad-on-the-Subway." I also asked if he knew of Audrey Munson, San Francisco's World's Fair girl in 1915 who modeled for many famous Manhattan statues. Caen wrote back. When no one in New York City would write back to me--even with SASEs!--a man of his age and stature wrote back. I mentioned this to a friend who was from San Francisco. "That's because Herb Caen is a Mensch," my friend said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- SLANG FOR A SATURDAY Someone wants the "Big Easy." I have an RHDAS antedate, but I have to look through four years of stuff! (last trip--Feb. 1993) "Big Easy" dates from the late 1960s. In the meantime, here's a neglected article on slang that deserves reprinting. The Evening Telegram (NYC), 9 December 1874, pg. 1, col. 1. (the first paragraph items will be given separate lines): ENGLISH SLANG THE ASTOUNDING PREVALENCE OF SLANG PHRASES IN OUR EVERY DAY SPEECH. An Account of Some of Them in Local Use--Their Convenient and Abominable Features--How They Originated and How They Have Been Perpetuated. Then they would talk-- Good God, how they would talk! Let us present a few specimens: "What does Old Probabilities say?" "Cheese it," "Tumble to a racket," "You know how it is yourself," "Bully boy with a glass eye," "Oh yes, I've been there," "That's the worst I ever heard," "That's what I told him," "What are you going to do about it?" "Put a head on him," "Is that your little game?" "You old duffer," "What a cheek," "Give us a rest," "That's what's the matter," "Let's take a smile," "Where's Tom Collins?" "Gone where the woodbine twineth," "Like a Philadelphia lawyer," "He'd skin your very teeth," "He's no chicken," "He doesn't scare worth a cent," "There's a nigger in the fence," "Go for him," "Mind your eye," "George, I'll strike you like a real man," "George, I'll hit you with a feather," "Over the river (_au revoir_), George," "That's what my wife said," "There's music in the air," "Big Six," "He's got the stamps," "Red hot," "Go West, young man, go West," "Rip, slap, set him up again," "How is that for high?" "It's a put up job," "Ko-rect," "He did his level best," "Loafing around the throne," "You're a nice young man," "You're too fresh," "You're altogether too new," "It's all the go," "Show me your man," "There's too many frills about him," "What a sport," "He knows what's what," "It's all O.K.," "Keep a stiff upper lip," "It won't wash," "Maniac water," "You lie, villain, you know you lie," "You lie for British gold," "Step up to the captain's office," "He's naughty, but he's nice," "I smell a mice," "He's so high toned," "Go it lemons," "Put a Mansard roof on him," "Don't put on an agony," "Whip the coon around the stump," "What's your hand?" "High, low, Jack and the game," "Go it blind," "My gay and festive cuss," (Artemus Ward) "Knee high to a grasshopper," "I think he's perfectly charming," (with marked accent on the charm, a young ladies' phrase) "Paddle your own canoe," "A big thing on ice," "Two can play at that game," "Like Muldoon, he is a solid man," "Willie, have you had your morning bounce?" "Ann, going for a walk?" "Oh, George, he is a charmer, oh," "Got a brick in his hat," "A nobby youth," "He's dressed to kill," "The bloated bondholder," "I'm in the same boat," "We'll take a whack at it," "Simmer down," "You've dropped something (?)," "On the fly," "Don't give it away," "Shoot that hat," "That's all gammon," "Do you see any green in my eye?" "Go it while you're young," "He'll laugh the other side of his mouth," "Have you seen the elephant?" "Cut his tail off behind his ears," "Schware off," (Jefferson's "Rip Van Winkle") "Draw it mild," "It's no go," "When the soup house moves away," "Go 'way, I'm a bad man," "Put me in my little bed," "That's too thin," "Oh, Keizer, don't you want to buy a dog?" "I should smile if you didn't," "How does the land lay?" "You can't most always sometimes generally tell," "Why is this thus?" "We'll shake hands across the bloody chasm,"--Greeley (a phrase which afforded a good opportunity during the last political and Presidential campaign for the "small fry" politicans to "let off" their superfluous powder) "He slings a nasty pen," "Dead to rights," "Bring him to his oats," "Give him away," "His little bill," "Hang it up," "Lay him out," (a murderous phrase in use among the "Battle Row Gang") "Keep cool," "Used up," "Quite some," (Western colloq) "Oh, let it slide," "Soft soap" or "Sawder" (Sam Slick's favorite expression) "Shine 'em up" or "Want a shine?" The foregoing expressions are heard every day wherever the English tongue is spoken or written. They are used by that shrewd observer of human nature, its weakness and foibles--the street gamin, including the newsboy and bootblack, the nattily dressed clerk, the fair and pretty school girl; while even the banker, the broker and elegant professional gentleman employ them because they are pithy and to the point, and come to the "mind's eye" when more elegant and correct English fails to "come to time" at the critical moment. (...) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Feb 1997 to 2 Feb 1997 ********************************************** There are 10 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. forbid. . .to? (3) 2. The City 3. forbid...to 4. The City -Reply (3) 5. "the bird" 6. Students and "Ebonics" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 07:54:33 -0600 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: forbid. . .to? Our Saturday, Feb. 1 newspaper had a Knight-Ridder News Service item which opened with the following: In a decison with nationwide implications, the California Supreme Court has ruled that San Jose can forbid suspected gang members to engage in a variety of otherwise legal behavior -- from climbing fences to wearing beepers to hanging around together on their turf. Here in Olde Milwaukee, we might say _forbid . . . from engaging_ but never _forbid . . . to engage_. We prefer the forbid + participle to forbid + infinitive. Is this regional? Or are we in the mainstream? Should Knight-Ridder get ridder one of their writers? akra Al Krahn ~ Milwaukee Area Technical College ~ 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 ~ 414/ W297-6519/ F297-7990 krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us ~ Owner PUNCT-L, a mailing list for discussing punctuation. [{:-},./-_(;-/)] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 09:44:11 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: forbid. . .to? In the places I have lived--southern Ohio, eastern Tennessee, and northern Indiana--forbid. . . to is used. "from" would always appear with "forbidden." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:19:49 -0500 From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: The City As the centennial of the union of the separate cities of Brooklyn and New York approaches, will there be a memorial celebration for the once independent city? Before the Brooklyn and Williamburg bridges the two cities could remain separate, but once the bridges went up Brooklyn was swallowed up. The reference to Queens as somehow distinct from Brooklyn and neither considered part of LI either perhaps owes to the fact that both New York and Brooklyn were cities and Queens was "the country" (although my grandfather Hill remembers riding on the interurban trolley from downtown Brooklyn to Coney Island through rural stretches and acres of cornfields). I have a question about the "real New Yorkers"--do they (as I do) refer to Idlewild rather than JFK and do they use the old subway line routes in conversation (AA, GG, BB rather than 1, 9, &c)? db (who moved out on the island--Feb 1942) ________________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 10:36:16 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: forbid...to Bith forbid ...to and forbid...from are standard. Forbid..from has been the subject of some (groundlass) objection. See M-WDEU. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:37:59 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: The City -Reply David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783 asks: I have a question about the "real New Yorkers"--do they (as I do) refer to Idlewild rather than JFK and do they use the old subway line routes in conversation (AA, GG, BB rather than 1, 9, &c)? db (who moved out on the island--Feb 1942) Well, I called it Idlewild for a while, but then adapted to the change. I may have been more linguistically flexible: I'm at least 6 years younger than you, on the evidence. I think of the numbered subway lines as being only on the IRT, and the BMT and IND lines as lettered. I refer to the lines that I remember, most notably the D and F trains. AA: was that the 8th Ave. local? But I haven't lived there for many years. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 11:58:02 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: The City -Reply Mark Mandel responds to David Bergdahl's query-- David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783 asks: I have a question about the "real New Yorkers"--do they (as I do) refer to Idlewild rather than JFK and do they use the old subway line routes in conversation (AA, GG, BB rather than 1, 9, &c)? db (who moved out on the island--Feb 1942) --by noting: Well, I called it Idlewild for a while, but then adapted to the change. I may have been more linguistically flexible: I'm at least 6 years younger than you, on the evidence. I think of the numbered subway lines as being only on the IRT, and the BMT and IND lines as lettered. I refer to the lines that I remember, most notably the D and F trains. AA: was that the 8th Ave. local? But I haven't lived there for many years. Neither have I, but I share Mark's judgments. "Idlewild" hung around for a while and would still be understood by anyone of my generation or older, but I would never use it anymore; in this respect it's quite different from that other shibboleth someone brought up here, "Avenue of the Americas" vs. "Sixth Avenue", where the former never caught on. It's partly a Least Effort Pheno- menon effect, I imagine, where the shorter JFK is a useful designation, but Sixth Avenue is both shorter and more motivated by the system than is Avenue of the Americas. On the subway lines, as far as I know Mark is right; AA is still in use (like other IND and BMT line trains) for the 8th Avenue local--it's the one I used to go home on when I lived in Washington Heights so I'm sure \I/ would still call it the AA, even if no one else did. But the IRT (Broadway Local and Lex Ave) lines were designated by numbers then (1-6) and still are. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 12:12:07 -0500 From: Vicki Rosenzweig vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CR.ACM.ORG Subject: Re: The City -Reply Unfortunately, there is no more AA local. For a while, when they first made all the train designations one-letter, it was renamed the K (which had its own confusion value), but the line has been discontinued. Depending on the day and time, 8th Avenue local service north of 42nd Street is now provided by either the C (formerly the CC), which sometimes runs to 168th Street Manhattan instead of to the Bronx; the B; or the A, which runs local late at night. North of 168th the A always runs local. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%cr.acm.org | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org http://members.tripod.com/~rosvicl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 13:32:20 EST From: "Heather M. Hewitt" HHEW1030[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]URIACC.URI.EDU Subject: Re: forbid. . .to? Is this regional? Or are we in the mainstream? Should Knight-Ridder get ridder one of their writers? akra Al Krahn ~ Milwaukee Area Technical College ~ 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 ~ 414/ W297-6519/ F297-7990 krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us ~ Owner PUNCT-L, a mailing list for discussing punctuation. [{:-},./-_(;-/)] My mother has forbidden me to engage in a number of things. She has also forbade. Heather Hewitt University of Rhode Island hhew1030[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uriacc.uri.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 18:58:19 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "the bird" My daughter inquires about the origin of 1. the American rude gesture known as "flipping the bird", which is not really within the domain of this list, and 2. its name, which is. Can anyone help? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Feb 1997 22:29:56 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Students and "Ebonics" I was delighted to learn today that some undergraduate students at the U of TN are concerned about media bias and minisformation re ebonics. A member of the Students' Speaker Bureau invited me to participate in a panel discussion on the subject on 2/11. I am not free to be on the panel at 7 p.m., but said that I would join later. I have been thinking about ofering to give a presentation in Knoxville, and I have now decided to offer to do one at the Knoxville Teachers' Center and also one on the campus. What are others doing? Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu/arch/ [To access individuals items in LJP, click on the appropriate icon, then remove the embedded "arch/" from the resulting URL. This is a temporary inconvenience.] ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1997 to 3 Feb 1997 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 289 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. forbid. . .to? 2. "the bird" (3) 3. cold drinks (5) 4. No subject given 5. Ebonics on TV-38 in the Chicago area ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 02:45:11 -0500 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: forbid. . .to? In western NC and the piedmont, I've always heard and used both to and from. But it seems to depend a little on the subject. I forbid you to ... and you are forbidden from .... Hmm, I've never thought of it that much. Comments from the experts? Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:16:32 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: "the bird" There's an excellent article discussing both of these issues in the current (February) issue of GQ, of all things. I recommend it. My daughter inquires about the origin of 1. the American rude gesture known as "flipping the bird", which is not really within the domain of this list, and 2. its name, which is. The original sense of _bird_ goes back to 1825 and meant 'the booing or hissing of a player or performance'. Later senses, attested by the 1920s, are 'a raspberry; Bronx cheer', and 'ridicule, mockery, or rejection in any form'. The first evidence I know of that unquestionably attests the sense 'extended middle finger as rude gesture' is only in 1966. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 09:50:58 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: "the bird" GQ? Is that a new journal? Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu/arch/ [To access individuals items in LJP, click on the appropriate icon, then remove the embedded "arch/" from the resulting URL. This is a temporary inconvenience.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:08:49 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "the bird" Bethany, I believe the reference is to Gentlemen's Quarterly. Not a new journal, indeed one is tempted to say not a journal at all--except insofar as e.g. Ladies Home Journal counts. Unfortunately, this also means it's unlikely our scholarly libraries deign to subscribe. Actually, on closer electronic examination, I find that Yale at least does have two subscriptions to GQ, although neither is at the main library: one is at Art & Architecture and the other at the Drama School. The latter seems particularly appropriate for research into the origin of bird-flipping. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- GQ? Is that a new journal? Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu/arch/ [To access individuals items in LJP, click on the appropriate icon, then remove the embedded "arch/" from the resulting URL. This is a temporary inconvenience.] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:29:32 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: cold drinks ok, this is NOT intended as a call for all to bring up pop and soda and coke and tonic and soft drink and so forth (we've done those to death, thank you). but i do have a query about another regional term for soft drinky things: cold drink. the stress on these is as for a compound noun, rather than an adj + noun. this is what i know: you hear "cold drink" in south africa, but the more "south african english" term is "cool drink" or "cooldrink". because of the stress pattern, you often see "cold drink" spelt "coldrink", although this is not standard spelling. south africans tell me that "cold drink" is more UK and "cool drink" is more SA. american heritage says "cold drink" is "southern US". none of the UK dictionaries i have (concise oxford, collins concise, oxford advanced learners) has "cold drink", suggesting that it's not UK. (but then again, none of my US dictionaries has "candy bar".) none of my SA dictionaries (D of SA english, D of SAE on historical principles, south african pocket oxford) has "cold drink", but all have "cool drink"--suggesting that they see the latter as not being particularly south african, but general (british) english. (but then again, there are other SAisms they've missed.) SA "cool drink" seems to be a calque from afrikaans "koel-drank". "cool drink" used for fizzy drinks or other softdrinks, less often includes juice. also used as term for "a can of..." (eg, "how many cooldrinks are left?"). SO........ with all that background, can anyone give me assurance or (preferably) evidence that "cold drink" is or is not used in - southern u.s. (is this current?) - united kingdom - other commonwealth englishes if "cold drink" is not UK, then it might be a more distant relation of "koel-drank", which SAE spkrs fancy is UK since it's less like Afrikaans. back from 9 weeks in the u.s. and as verbose as ever, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:47:36 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: cold drinks Lynne, A map on page 720 of DARE I shows the distribution of "cold drink" as chiefly southern. It might be an innovation in the south: "Cold drink decreases as informants grow older" (p721). Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 10:50:45 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: cold drinks thanks very much. sure wish i had a copy of DARE here... lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 11:33:02 -0600 From: "Plonsker, Leslie" lplonske[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWSP.EDU Subject: No subject given How do I logon to your listserv? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 13:28:01 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: cold drinks ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ Hey Lynne, welcome back! As for the part of your question about other varieties of English, "cold drink" definitely appears in Pakistani English. It means a chilled, bottled drink, e.g. Pepsi, whatever the orange soda and variant of Sprite are, and mango juice (which is what I always got and why I can't remember the others). If you're hanging out with friends, especially in the summer, you often opt for a "cold drink" rather than chi (tea, which is served hot with lots of milk and sugar). I don't know whether "cold drink" originally came from the UK or one of the colonies, but I think that the opposition between a "cold drink" and tea is probably important. I hope this helps. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ On Tue, 4 Feb 1997, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: thanks very much. sure wish i had a copy of DARE here... lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 15:40:08 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: cold drinks At 10:50 AM 2/4/97 -0500, you wrote: thanks very much. sure wish i had a copy of DARE here... lynne Do you have a copy of the Dec. 1996 issue of the Journal of English Linguistics? See "Soda or Pop?", pp. 270-87. Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Feb 1997 16:14:26 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Ebonics on TV-38 in the Chicago area If you are in the Chicago area, tonight, at 9:00PM, TV-38 (the Christian channel) will air again a panel discussion that I had this morning (11:00AM) with some educators on Ebonics in the classroom. It is interesting to hear what teachers think, in contradistinction with (other) lay persons that called in and sided with linguists. The panel was all black (not counting the host) and there are noteworthy differences among us on the subject matter. Also, if you have access to the Chicago street people's paper STREETWISE, you should buy this week's issue. It has the best article I have read so far in the media on Ebonics. It represents voices/opinions of the lay people who speak it. Here too, speakers' views are in contrast with those of some teachers. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Feb 1997 to 4 Feb 1997 **********************************************