Date:  Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:41:19 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.SHS.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie?



WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL!

But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny.



Tom Uharriet





In case you missed it, Dennis' explaination follows:



> I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a

> principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes'

> 'heavier' items go to the right.

>

> For example, if sex prevailed, why is it

>

> men and women

>

> but

>

> ladies and gentlemen

>

> Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but

> 'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.'

>

> When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes:

>

> back and forth (3 and 4)

>

> When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced

> versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency

>

> thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer)

> etc...

>

> So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me).

>

> Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the

> British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with

> admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong

> which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork'

> if that is the order which prevails there.

>

> Neat huh?

>

> Of course, I don't know the distribution.

>

>

>

>

>

> >I have a question which is, admittedly,

> >a bit mundane for the likes of the

> >great intellectuals on this list,

> >but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it!

> >

> >Has any work been done on a regional distribution

> >of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"?

> >

> >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use

> >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange.

> >Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says,

> >to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British."

> >

> >Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome,

> >and you may forward them to me personally, if you like.

> >I'll post a summary if the information warrants it.

> >

> >Thanks in advance!

> >

> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

> >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

> >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

> >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

> >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

> >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

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