There are 4 messages totalling 167 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gullah Bible (3)

 2. Les Nouvelles from Le Meridien



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Jan 1995 09:07:29 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Gullah Bible



I've been off the list for a couple of weeks and may have missed a previous

posting, but while I was paging through a Presbyterian newsletter the other

night at an in-law's house, I saw a notice for the "first complete book of

the Bible" printed in Gullah by the American Bible Society. The Gospel of

Luke is rendered in the notice as "De Good Nyews Bout Jedus Christ Wa Luke

Write."



I have found comparisons of Bible translations very helpful in HEL classes

and could use selections from such a Bible for illustrative purposes. Has

anyone seen this Bible? How authentic is its Gullah? I have been very shy

in regard to examples of Gullah ever since I heard Sali speak about

unauthentic Gullah some twelve or thirteen years ago.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Jan 1995 09:16:16 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



In addition to Wayne Glowka's question, I'd like to inquire about Black Bible Chronicles. New York: African American Family P. which I read about in I

think it was *Harper's* last month. I've asked our library to get not only

the Gullah version of Luke but also the Black Bible Chronicles, which are

described as being written in BEV. Andrew Young is one of the people involved

in the project. The BEV replicated in the Harper's story seemed to me highly

suspect, and I'm wondering if any of the list members have more information/

evaluation of this project.



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

Hamilton, New York 13346

Phone (315) 824-7315 (O); (315) 691-5116 (H)

FAX (315) 824-7121

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:03:54 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



In Message Tue, 3 Jan 1995 09:07:29 EST,

 Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.GAC.PeachNet.EDU  writes:



  I saw a notice for the "first complete book of

 the Bible" printed in Gullah by the American Bible Society. ...

  "De Good Nyews Bout Jedus Christ Wa Luke Write."

 

  ... Has

 anyone seen this Bible? How authentic is its Gullah? I have been very shy

 in regard to examples of Gullah ever since I heard Sali speak about

 unauthentic Gullah some twelve or thirteen years ago.

 

  Boy! I did not realize it's been that long! I have a copy of the Gullah

Bible. Its text competes well with the aclaimed renditions of Gullah by

Ambrose Gonzales, whom Pat Sharpe holds in high esteem, and recent writers

such as Virginia Geraty in Charleston, S.C. The latter has actually been a

consultant to the project. What makes this one very interesting is that it

has involved educated native speakers such as Ron Daise and Reverend Ervin

Greene. There are the usual problems of adjusting a spoken variety to a

written medium, regularizing some structural options, but nothing that makes

this Gullah unauthentic. It should be a good research resource for tracking

grammatical constructions: how they compare with texts collected from

spontaneous speech. There also arises the problem of how much eye dialect is

allowed to distort without creating a fiction of its own, but this is not a

problem peculiar to this Bible translation. Actually, Wayne, you may be

pleased to know that on every page the original English text (that from

which the translation was made) is given in a small column and typesetting.

I should have examined the work more carefully, but I feel safe in stating

the above comments.

Happy new year,

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Jan 1995 22:08:10 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Les Nouvelles from Le Meridien



Thanks to all who participated in our first e-xperiment with e-ncompassing

ADS-L in choosing Words of the Year. And to Natalie Maynor and Mike Agnes for

the technical arrangements. Now, for the other business news from the

American Dialect Society Annual Meeting 1994 at Le Meridien in floreal

Coronado CA:



1. After a final hour concluding the conversation that began in the September

NADS and continued on this list last month, the ADS Executive Council

unanimously agreed to President John Baugh's proposal that ADS hold its

annual meeting in association with the Linguistic Society of America for 3

years starting January 1997 - but having most of our sessions the day before

(or possibly after) the LSA meeting, so that those who want to participate in

LSA (which is the reason for this change) will not have to choose between LSA

sessions and ADS. There was also considerable sentiment in favor of

continuing our custom of having our own hotel and arrangements, though LSA is

so welcoming that that may be more difficult.



This was a rejection of the committee proposal for an independent April

meeting. Of about two dozen in attendance at the Executive Council, most

expressed opposition to adding a separate meeting to the year's busy calendar

and expressed doubt that anyone but they would attend. There were also few

kind words for MLA and passionate affirmation of LSA as the true home of our

society. Well, maybe NWAV as the truer home, but not stable enough.



Those who favor LSA will now have the opportunity to demonstrate through

strong programs, good attendance, and new recruits that their choice is the

natural one. Those who will miss MLA have the opportunity of next year in

Chicago to demonstrate what we will be missing.



And if after Chicago-MLA and then three years of LSA the results in terms of

attendance and membership still aren't impressive, you may well see some

committee return with a proposal to meet entirely on our own at some other

time of the year. So if you don't like that, get busy!



(We have, I think, programs of generally high quality at our annual meeting,

and very congenial settings for collegiality. The problem is that year after

year, such a small portion of our membership attends. At the program sessions

this year, attendance was mostly between 20 and 30, rising to a maximum of 45

for the luncheon and about 55 for Word of the Year. That's out of a

membership of 550.)



2. For the first time ever, starting in Chicago next year, ADS will have

registration for the Annual Meeting, at a fee of $20, or $10 for students.

This is to cover the expense of refreshments, and give exact information on

who attends.



3. Beth Lee Simon was appointed Midwest Regional Secretary, succeeding the

late Michael Miller.



4. Alan Manning was appointed chair of the Teaching Committee, succeeding

Kathy Riley.



5. Dennis Baron and Allan Metcalf were approved to organize an ADS session at

the NCTE convention in San Diego Nov. 17-19.



For more details, see the next NADS, which should be out to you at the end of

the month.



See you at the Barclay in Chicago this coming December! Watch this ether for

further details on how you can participate! In particular, incoming VP and

program chair Walt Wolfram has certain ideas. . . .



- Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary   AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Dec 1994 to 3 Jan 1995

***********************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 131 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gullah Bible (5)

 2. Les Nouvelles from Le Meridien



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Jan 1995 22:28:45 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Wayne G-

  I'm interested in your use of various Bible translations in teaching

HEL. Since my students are given the choice of memorizing the Lord's

Prayer or the first thirteen lines of Beowulf for their OE section, I

think that (since they invariably choose the Lord's Prayer - who said that

Newt Gingrich was leading the pack Re prayer in school?) those students

would appreciate seeing Luke in various translations. Could you sent me

a note off-line describing your use of such translations? Thanks, and

Cheers,

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu

Tom Clark



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:41:49 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Les Nouvelles from Le Meridien



Thank you for the report, Allan. I am delighted that we shall be meeting

with LSA for at least 3 years.



Suggestion: how about distributing NADS electronically, as well as in hard copy?

  At this point, most of my tickler systems, such as they are, are set up

eledtronically, and it would make full ADS participation easier if I could

add it.



Happy New Year, all!



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Jan 1995 08:39:11 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Tom requested information about using versions of the Gospel in HEL in an

off-note. I'd like to get it too.

Tim Frazer









On Tue, 3 Jan 1995, THOMAS CLARK wrote:



  Wayne G-

   I'm interested in your use of various Bible translations in teaching

  HEL. Since my students are given the choice of memorizing the Lord's

  Prayer or the first thirteen lines of Beowulf for their OE section, I

  think that (since they invariably choose the Lord's Prayer - who said that

  Newt Gingrich was leading the pack Re prayer in school?) those students

  would appreciate seeing Luke in various translations. Could you sent me

  a note off-line describing your use of such translations? Thanks, and

  Cheers,

  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu

  Tom Clark

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Jan 1995 10:50:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



I have a Krio (Sierra Leone) New Testament (United Bible Societies, 1985)

which is also very well done and might make an interesting contrastive

exercise with selected passages from a Gullah version.

What in the hell is HEL (and why is the bible such a good thing to teach it

with)?

Wait, wait, wait! Could it possibly be History of the English Language?

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:16:57 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



 I have a Krio (Sierra Leone) New Testament (United Bible Societies, 1985)

 which is also very well done and might make an interesting contrastive

 exercise with selected passages from a Gullah version.

 What in the hell is HEL (and why is the bible such a good thing to teach it

 with)?

 Wait, wait, wait! Could it possibly be History of the English Language?

 Dennis Preston



You obviously have never been a member of HEL-L, which was hellish for the

one week I subscribed. Like Dryden reading _The Iliad_, I felt too old for

all that passion in regard to non-gender-specific singular pronouns, words

like "huperdaughter" (=human - man; person - son; and son = daughter), the

difference between a chair you sit on and a chair you dump on (or a head

you dump on and a head you--well--dump on), and other things too explosive

and engaging for an amateur as opposed to a warrior.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Jan 1995 11:26:47 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



On Wed, 4 Jan 1995, Dennis.Preston wrote:



  What in the hell is HEL (and why is the bible such a good thing to teach it

  with)?

  Wait, wait, wait! Could it possibly be History of the English Language?

  Dennis Preston

 

By George, he's got it, he's got it, he's got it!

The computer liaison people here have to set up accounts each semester

for "The Students from HEL." The acronym also unifies the class members

who suffer together. Former HELlions high five one another in the halls.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jan 1995 to 4 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Job opening: teach English in Germany?

 2. Gingrich as a Verb

 3. PADS 78

 4. ADS Annual Meeting (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 11:49:54 +0100

From:  "E.W. Schneider"  Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE 

Subject: Job opening: teach English in Germany?



In my department there will be an opening for a position of "Lektor",

beginning this fall. Job duties include mostly language instruction

(i.e. teaching "general language courses", grammar, translation

German - English, phonetics, etc.; also courses on American culture /

history / etc.).

Applicants must be native speakers of English resident in an

English-speaking country before taking this job. They must have at

least a Master`s degree in English, linguistics, German, or possibly

some other related field (Ph.D. or ABD status would be a plus); they should have some formal training in

TESOL. Also, some knowledge of German is mandatory (as duties include

teaching translation from German on an advanced level).

The successful candidate will be given a two-year contract, renewable

for another three years afterwards, but not beyond those five years.

The salary is calculated on the basis of the BATIIa scale of the

German civil service. Salary and fringe benefits to some extent

depend on age and marital status but can be expected to be in the

range of some 50.000 Deutsche Mark net per annum.



This is only a short announcement; for further details and a fuller

job description, write me or send me an e-mail message.If you know

someone who might qualify, feel free to pass this on. Applications

should be sent to me by the end of April.



Best regards,

Edgar Schneider



Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de

University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 08:21:35 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Gingrich as a Verb



Last night while trying to listen to a broadcast of the CBS Evening News

over the whines of a fifteen-month-old, I think I heard a liberal radio

talk show host in San Francisco who was replaced recently by a conservative

say, "Just like everyone else, I've been Gingriched."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 08:47:37 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: PADS 78



The new PADS is out and looks extremely useful for me and my students. I

can see many a term paper coming out of this book. The bibliography is a

godsend. Thanks Greta and Michael. Also please extend my thanks to

whoever is responsible for putting the title on the spine. I can't tell

you how often I have to dig through piles of PADS to find a specific

volume.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 15:06:00 GMT

From:  J.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject: ADS Annual Meeting



So what did y'all decide then at San Diego in the end?



John Kirk



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 20:36:18 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: ADS Annual Meeting



John, did you see Natalie's posting on Word of the Year, and mine on business

actions?

 If not, I can dig either or both out of the archives.

Best wishes - Allan



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Jan 1995 21:26:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS Annual Meeting



  John, did you see Natalie's posting on Word of the Year, and mine on business

  actions?



I bet that's when John's mail was bouncing because of a full mailbox.



I'm sending this to the whole list as an occasion to remind y'all that

logs of back mail are available via anonymous ftp from ftp.msstate.edu

in pub/archives/ADS/List-Logs and via gopher from gopher.msstate.edu (#3

on first menu and #1 on next menu). They're also reachable via the web:

http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/. The logs are for whole months,

however, and don't include the current month. Maybe I should start adding

daily mail logs for the current month.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jan 1995 to 5 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 64 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. January Logs Now Available

 2. that military rank

 3. Laramie



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Jan 1995 07:49:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: January Logs Now Available



I just added directories to the ftp/gopher/www holdings with daily logs

of the current month. In ftp it's pub/archives/ADS/List-Logs/Current.

From gopher or the web, the directory should be easily findable via the

menus. (Reminder: The ftp address is ftp.msstate.edu. The gopher

address is gopher.msstate.edu. The WWW address is http://www.msstate.edu/

Archives/ADS/. If you want to leave off the /Archives/ADS/ at the end of

that web address, you can find the ADS holdings by clicking on the "Other

Resources" listing on the MSU home page.)



Please let me know any time you happen to notice that our ftp/gopher/web

holdings are not up to date. Sometimes I may be a day or two behind

because of crises of various kinds, but it's also possible that I've

simply forgotten something. I noticed a few days ago that I was a whole

month behind in adding the November mail log to gopher. (This is my first

experience with maintaining gopher files -- an experience not as pleasant

as maintaining ftp and web files. Gopher is messy.) Your reminders if

I've forgotten something or your suggestions for improvement are always

welcome.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Jan 1995 15:33:02 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: that military rank



Just a stray thought from nowhere. Did I miss something in my linguistics

education? How did [lEftEn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nt] in Brit become [lutEnant] in American, or

vice versa (probably not, but allowing for unexpected possibilities)???

I don't remember off the top of my head any other /Ef/~/u/ alternatives

between the two dialects, and I don't ever remember hearing any explanation.

Anyone?



PS -- congrats to the list. The results of the Word of the Year contest were

announced in the San Francisco area on ABC-TV local news within a day or two

of posting.

                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Jan 1995 17:45:10 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Laramie



To Laramie a corner: from a street where there are no

left turns permitted, to turn right into a gas station or

fast food or little store parking lot, turn into the cross

street and go through the light, thus accomplishing the

left turn. I heard this last night in Omaha (where left turns

are greatly forbidden). Never heard it before.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Jan 1995 to 6 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 265 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Put-downs (4)

 2. Euphonizing (?) proper names (4)

 3. Variation on Gallicisms

 4. (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 16:13:04 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Put-downs



I have been noticing "put-downs" which consist of a sentence implying

that a person is,euphemistically, "a little off"; i.e., addled, crazy,

loony, demented. . . . or just slightly slow. They seem to be similar

in form. So far, these are what I have collected.





He's/She's got one wheel in the sand.

He's/She's two sandwiches short of a picnic (from a British colleague)

His/her elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor.

His/her roof is missin a few shingles.

(He's/she's) not quite the full shilling, that one. (from an Irish colleague)



It seems that these oblique references to a person's sanity or competence

often use a "height" metaphor (#3 and #4); this makes sense since our

brains, the organ in question, are located at the top or highest point

of our bodies.



Any more of these from ADS-ers? And what would you call them?



Chris Brooks / Kuwait University



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 16:24:02 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Is there a name for (there MUST be!) proper names which are pronounced

differently from the way we would pronounce them according to their

spellings (sorry)--because spelling pronunciations would result in an

embarrassing, low-class, or objectionable word?



For example, my British colleague says that the family name De'ath,

spelled in apostrophe-less 'standardized' or bureaucratic fashion which

would be pronounced like "death," is pronounced "dee-ath."



And the family name "Sidebottom" is pronounced "siddy-bottOME." Really.

Hey, my colleague swears this is the case--in Britain.



I remember the Family name "Saint John," rendered as "sin-jin." Here

it seems to be avoiding something overtly religious or presumtuous.



Apparently there is a BBC sit-com where a Mrs. Bucket, a middle class

women with aspirations stronlgy resists the common-sounding normal

spelling pronunciation, insisting that people say "boo-kay" . . .

alias "bouquet"!



A similar phenomenon has happened to the word "harrass," where stress

on the last syllable has been judged to be too evocative of the

ordinary term for a person's behind. Actually, I just checked

Webster's and HARass is given as the second pronunciation.



Do you know of any other perhaps deliberate mispronunciations

of names to avoid the sound of an objectionable word? And what would

you call these?



Chris Brooks / Kuwait University



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 09:06:49 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Put-downs



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



American tv personality Johnny Carson specialized in these: "she's not playing

with a full deck" &c. Is the origin the expression "lost his marbles" with

variations on LOSS?

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

"between Appalachia and the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 09:06:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Put-downs



These 'not-all-there' forms are ubiquitous. My favorite is Polish. 'Nie ma

pianti klepki' - 'You don't have your fifth stave.' Apparently old barrels

were made with five staves, if your fifth one is gone - well, you get it.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 09:12:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Euphonizing (?) proper names



I have no name for these nominal euphemisms, but I published a short note on

the rise of the Uranus (YOURunus) pronunication over the (yourANus) form, for

obvious reasons, in American Speech. I also recall that in a W.C. Fields film,

I forgot which, he is Mr. Souse, but insists on its being pronounced sooSAY

(again, for obvious reasons). Recall, too, that is argued (by Jespersen, I

believe) that the drink-drank-drunk conjugation is leveled to

drink-drank-drank to avoid the drunk form.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 08:29:16 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Out here in the sticks of Colorado we like to shopping at "Tar-zhay", kind of a

french pronunciation of "Target". It gives us the feeling that we're heading

for a sophisticated kind of store.



One of my favorite real last names is "Outhouse." the family pronounces it

"oo-thouse".



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 12:37:07 -0600

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



It's Tar-zhay here too, though always ironically.

I wonder why we haven't followed the French in naming the new

big versions of discount stores hypermarche's. I hear them

called Super Target, Super K-Mart. Are those corporate

designations, btw?

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 13:52:58 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Variation on Gallicisms



For reasons that are not all clear to me, there has always been a

greater tendency in American English to preserve French (and Spanish)

phonological traits of borrowed words when compared with the

processing these same words get in British English. The example of

_lieutentant_ was given by Dan Alford. There are many others: _buffet_

(culinary) has the final /-t/ only in Britain. _Garage_ has syllable

final stress in America, but stress has shifted forward in Britain,

resulting in changes in vowel quality for both syllables such that

the word is incomprehensible to American ears in the oral code (I

remember a sketch on American TV before a live audience: the British

humorist used a punchline with _garage_ in it and the audience didn't

have a clue). There has been a similar divergeance in the treatment of

many Spanish proper names: Don Juan, Don Quixote, etc., have been

assimilated in Britain, much less so in America.



The Gallicized pronunciation of _Target_ is a new one on me. It is an

instance of hypercorrection since the French origin of the word,

_targette_ (formerly _targuete_) has always retained the final /-t/.

It is a medieval term referring to a small shield, hence `target'.

On the subject of `hyper', and in repsonse to Dennis Baron, there has

indeed been an attempt to use _hypermarket_ (from French _hypermarche'_)

in American retailing, as the following attestation describing events

in Cincinnati makes clear:



 French-run Hypermarket a U.S. Hit.

 With its 40 checkout lanes and 75 aisles, the new Bigg's "hypermarket"

 here could well be called the Mount Everest of U.S. Supermarkets. ...

 `We're neither a supermarket nor a department store. We're both.' said

 Jacques LeFoll, executive vice president of Hyper Shoppes Inc., the

 90-percent-French-owned, U.S.-based company that runs Bigg's.

 Euromarche', a leading French retailer and the principal owner of Hyper

 Shoppes, sees the experimental store as a springboard for many more such

 combination supermarket-department stores on U.S. soil. `We hope to

 open five hypermarche's each year,' said Mr. LeFoll, a 38-year-old

 Parisian who runes Bigg's ... If the Bigg's in Cincinnati succeeds, some

 supermarket analysts say, it could encourage other supermarket chains

 to build such huge hypermarkets." International Herald Tribune, Feb. 11,

 1985, p. 7.



I think _hypermarket_ is still in circulation, but I don't know how

productive it has proven to be on U.S. soil where _hyper_ is not the most

felicitous choice as an intensifier in the realm of popular vocabulary.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 13:27:49 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Forwarded message:

From:   Self  CCNOV2/ASI_BEH 

To:    Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names

Date:   Sun, 8 Jan 1995 13:26:50



Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW , writing on Sat, 07 Jan 1995,

asks:



  Is there a name for (there MUST be!) proper names which are pronounced

  differently from the way we would pronounce them according to their

  spellings (sorry)--because spelling pronunciations would result in an

  embarrassing, low-class, or objectionable word?



I don't know what the word you are looking for is, or even if there

is one, but I have an example to add to your list. My sister-in-

law's birth name was Hoare, and when she was introduced to the family

there was great emphasis put on the "correct" pronunciation of OR, not

the obvious pronunciation based on the spelling. There's also the

cartoon teacher on The Simpsons, named Kruh-BOP-uhl (i.e. Crabapple)



My own surname was moderately productive of slurs in

elementary school (Behrend - -   Bare End, hahaha), but I've always

wondered what families named Fuch and Fuchs do? I've seen the name

frequently in print, but have never heard it pronounced in English.



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Jan 1995 22:06:48 -0500

From:  Robert Howren  howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Put-downs



On Sat, 7 Jan 1995, Chris Brooks wrote:

  I have been noticing "put-downs" which consist of a sentence implying

  that a person is,euphemistically, "a little off"; i.e., addled, crazy,

  loony, demented. . . . or just slightly slow. They seem to be similar

  in form. So far, these are what I have collected. 

  He's/She's got one wheel in the sand.

  He's/She's two sandwiches short of a picnic (from a British colleague)

  His/her elevator doesn't go all the way to the top floor.

---ETC.---

 

How about:

    He's/she's a brick shy of a full load.

    He/she hasn't got both oars in the water.

    He/she isn't playing with a full deck.

--Bob



    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Robert Howren          Dept. of Linguistics

    howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]isisb.oit.unc.edu    University of North Carolina

    OR:               Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3155

    r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Jan 1995 to 7 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 804 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Elegantese (?)

 2. Is this the Hoar house?

 3. Euphonizing (?) proper names

 4. (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper

 5. (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names

 6. GURT 1995 (long posting)

 7. Put Downs



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 12:54:31 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Elegantese (?)



Bol(l)inger had something on what he called "elegantese" (ADS, mid-70s?)



RE: Target [tar-ZHAY]: I would call this gallicism. Assuming no modern

French pronunciation model, I might even call it hypergallicism, or

"out-Frenching the French". I've noticed three phonological symptoms

manifested in a number of lexemes: (i) de-affrication, (ii) word-end

stressing, and (iii) end-grapheme silencing.



Speaking of W.C. Fields, cf. "It's a Gift" (1934): The pronunciations

of the name Bissonnette form a running joke throughout the movie:

The expected [bih.suh.NET] vs. the Mrs.'s insistence on [bih.suh.NAY].



Noticed more recently  te^te-a`-te^te  rendered [tay-ah-TAY],  coup de

gra^ce  as [koo.duh.GRAH],  recoup  [ruh.KOO].



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 13:14:07 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Is this the Hoar house?



Had an uncle surnamed Hoar. Insisted on pron. like  oar . All his

sons (now fiftyish or older) namechanged to Oarre.



Knew a Fuchs once. Insisted on [fju:ks]; rarely got it from strangers.



Know of three Kochs who've done interesting things with their names.

One ran into trouble with corporate lawyers when he tried to change his

name to Mr. Coke-Is-It (sp?) several decades ago. Another was a

building contractor in Santa Rosa, CA, whose business card spelled

Koch with a macron over  o  and insisted on a rhyme with  coach .

And then there's the former mayor of New York City, Ed Koch. (kotch,

rh.w/ Scotch).



At least with Fuchs or Koch, we could say it's interlingual tabu

avoidance; Mary Haas's idea?



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 07:58:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Here in Michigan too we like 'tar-zhay' for Target, but I have also heard 'Roy

Row-zhay' (for Roy Rogers restaurant, in Bethesda). We also shop at

'Crow-zhay' (Kroger) here in East Lansing (you can guess about the quality of

local restaurant food). Fresh from the tables of Coronado, I don't want to

think about it for a bit.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 08:10:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper



All the Fuchs's down my way (Louisville) - we had no Fuch - were pronounced

'fyooks.' Although us Upper South Midland adolescents played with everything

(we had dirty versions of every mildly popular song), I do not remember toying

with this.

While we are on names, we also had what I would call counter-euphemistic

ploys. That is, when we couldn't find a real name or something in a name to

make fun of we invented stuff. Our favorite trick was to send bogus names on a

slip of paper to be read over the P.A. by the vice principal. As I recall, our

favorites were 'Mike Hunt' and 'Edith Juan' (what little philologists we were

with the latter, huh!). You can imagine our adolescent glee when we heard the

serious V.P. intone ' Will Mike Hunt come to the office.'

We also toyed with one another's names, hoping for something nasty. One day we

started spoonerizing. My pal Mark Amster ended up 'Ark Mamster.' No fun. My

buddy Larry Fischer ended up 'Fairy Lischer.' Good stuff for those homophobic

days. I didn't see it coming until someone blurted out 'Penis Dreston.' The

'Penis' handle stuck for two years of High School. (No pun intended.)

Ah! Names!

Dennis Preston a.k.a. ![AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]#$%^&*()

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 08:54:48 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



On Sun, 8 Jan 1995, Tim Behrend wrote:

 but I've always

  wondered what families named Fuch and Fuchs do? I've seen the name

  frequently in print, but have never heard it pronounced in English.

 

  Tim Behrend

  University of Auckland

 

The Fuchs folks that I know have said /fyuks/.

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 15:02:57 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT 1995 (long posting)



     GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY ROUND TABLE

     ON LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS 1995

 Pre-sessions and Conference: March 6-11, 1995



"Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers:

 Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic, and Sociolinguistic Aspects"



Main Conference Opening Session: Wednesday, March 8, 1995,

   7:30 p.m., Georgetown Campus, Gaston Hall

   (registration required)



            Opening remarks:

James E. Alatis, Dean Emeritus, School of Languages and Linguistics

     Chair, Georgetown University Round Table 1995



            Honored Guest:

Eugene Garcia, Director, OBEMLA, U.S. Department of Education



              Speaker:

Steve Krashen, University of Southern California

     The Cause-Effect Confusion and the Time Issue in Education



Opening reception to follow in ICC Galleria



Admission to all sessions by badge only; registration materials

and badges will not be mailed but may be picked up at registration

center in Intercultural Center (ICC), exact location to be posted;

registration materials for March 8 evening session available in Gaston

Hall foyer from 6:30 p.m. All pre-sessions on March 6, 7, and 8 and

main sessions on March 9, 10, and 11 will be held in

Intercultural Center (rooms to be posted). Detailed program

with abstracts included in registration packets.



              THURSDAY, MARCH 9, 1995

               Intercultural Center

Plenary speakers:

Kathleen Bailey, Monterey Institute of International Studies

   What teachers say about teaching

Bessie Dendrinos, University of Athens, Greece

    Foreign language textbook discourse and pedagogization

   of the learner

Invited speakers:

David R. Andrews, Georgetown University

   Standard versus non-standard: The intersection of

   sociolinguistics and language teaching

Elsaid Badawi, American University in Cairo

   The use of Arabic in Egyptian T.V. commercials: A

   language simulator for the training of teachers of Arabic

   as a foreign language

Kenneth Chastain, University of Virginia

     Knowledge, language, and communication

Virginia P. Collier, George Mason University

     Language acquisition for school: Academic, cognitive,

     sociocultural, and linguistic processes

JoAnn Crandall, University of Maryland Baltimore County

     Reinventing America's schools: The role of the applied

     linguist

Nadine O'Connor Di Vito, University of Chicago

     Using native speech to formulate past tense rules in

     French

Adam Jaworski, University of Wales, College of Cardiff

     Language awareness in applied linguistics students:

     Evidence from linguistic and cultural heritage essays

Donna Lardiere, Georgetown University

     An update on transfer and transferability

Donald J. Loritz, Georgetown University

     Unlearning learnability

Yuling Pan, Georgetown University

     Addressee, setting, and verbal behavior: How relevant

     are they in foreign language teaching?

Guy Spielmann, Georgetown University

     Multidisciplinary Integrated Language Education (MILE)

     and second/foreign language teaching

G. Richard Tucker, Carnegie Mellon University

     Developing a research component within a teacher

     education program

Andrea Tyler, Georgetown University

     Patterns of lexis: How much can repetition tell us about

     discourse coherence?

Bill VanPatten, University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign

     Is psycholinguistics relevant to language teaching?

Shelley Wong, University of Maryland, College Park

     Curriculum transformation: A psycholinguistic course

     for prospective teachers of ESOL K 12

Elizabeth Zsiga, Georgetown University

     Phonology and phonetics in the education of second

     language teachers: The representation of some variable

     rules of English



               FRIDAY, MARCH 10, 1995

               Intercultural Center

Plenary speakers:

Leslie M. Beebe, Teachers College, Columbia University

   Polite fictions: Instrumental rudeness as pragmatic

   competence

Joan Morley, University of Michigan

   Maximizing learning



Invited speakers:

Vincent J. Cangiano, El Houcine Haichour, Stephanie J.

   Stauffer, Georgetown University

   Taming the electronic lion, or How to shape a language

   learning environment out of the chaos called the Internet



Jeff Connor-Linton, Georgetown University

     Late night thoughts on complexity, linguistics, and

     language teaching

Barbara A. Craig, Georgetown University

     Boundary discourse and the authority of knowledge in

     the second language classroom

Madeline E. Ehrman, U.S. Department of State, FSI

    Personality, language learning aptitude, and program structure

Aviva Freedman, Carleton University, Ottawa

     "Situating" learning to write for the L2 teacher

William C. Hannas, Georgetown University

     Teaching Chinese teachers what constitutes "Chinese"

Susan Huss-Lederman, Georgetown University

     "Wait wait wait wait!"  A sociolinguistic analysis of

     repetition in the speech of adult beginning ESL learners

     using instructional software

Kurt R. Jankowsky, Georgetown University

     On the need to unlearn in the foreign language learning

     process

Ronald P. Leow, Georgetown University

     Teacher education and psycholinguistics: Making

     teachers psycholinguists

Steven J. Loughrin-Sacco, Boise State University

     Research internships: Involving undergraduate foreign

     language secondary education majors in ethnographic

      research

Anne Pakir, National University of Singapore

     Beginning at the end: "Bilingual education for all" in

     Singapore and teacher perception

Sophia C. Papaefthymiou-Lytra, University of Athens, Greece

     Culture and the teaching of foreign languages: A case

     study

Teresa Pica, University of Pennsylvania

     Teaching language and teaching language learners: The

     expanding role and expectations of language teachers in

     communicative content-based classrooms

Peter Schmitter, Martin-Luther-Universitaet Halle-Wittenberg,

     Germany

     Structural or cognitive semantics as a topic in the

     linguistic education of second language teachers?

Charles W. Stansfield, Second Language Testing, Inc.

     Considerations in the writing of SOPI prompts

Monique Y. Wong, Hellenic American Union, Greece

     Using simulation to develop negotiation strategies in a

     foreign language



              SATURDAY, MARCH 11, 1995

               Intercultural Center

Plenary speakers:

Marianne Celce-Murcia, University of California, Los Angeles

   The elaboration of sociolinguistic competence: Implications

   for teacher education

Diane Larsen-Freeman, School for International Training

   On the changing role of linguistics in the education of

   second language teachers: Past, present, and future



Invited speakers:

Catherine N. Ball, Georgetown University

     Providing comprehensible input in a dead foreign

     language: Two text-based strategies

Isolda E. Carranza, Georgetown University

     Multi-level analysis of two-way bilingual classroom

     discourse

Anna Uhl Chamot, Georgetown University

     Learning strategies of elementary foreign language

     immersion students

Mary El-Kadi, Old Dominion University

     Discourse analysis of classroom interaction and the

     training of ESL teachers

Elaine K. Horwitz, University of Texas at Austin

     Foreign language anxiety and foreign language

     teachers: What can teacher educators do?

Christina Kakava, Mary Washington College

     Directness and indirectness in professor student

   interaction: The intersection of contextual and cultural

   constraints

David Nunan, University of Hong Kong

     Systemic-functional linguistics and the education of

     second language teachers: A case study

Linju Ogasawara, Japanese Ministry of Education (ret.)

     Native cultural interference in Japanese English usage

John J. Staczek, Georgetown University

     Metalinguistic talk in mature L2 adult-learner classroom

     discourse

Stephanie J. Stauffer, Georgetown University

     Reap what you sow: In-service training for language

     teachers for computer-mediated communication

Steven Sternfeld, University of Utah

    From Hirsch's Dystopia to Hakuta's Utopia: A call for

     multilingual alliance

Weiping Wu, Center for Applied Linguistics

     Education of second language teachers: The link

     between linguistic theory and teaching practice

Dolly J. Young, University of Tennessee

     Language anxiety in SL Acquisition: Using a wider angle

     of focus

Raffaella Zanuttini, Georgetown University

     Dialectal variation as an insight into the structure of

     language

Gen-Yuan Zhuang, Hangzhou University, PRC

     What they hear is not what they read: Speech

   perception and the training of English teachers in China





********************************************************

OTHER GEORGETOWN CONFERENCES:



*Georgetown Linguistics Society, GLS 1995, Developments in

Discourse Analysis, February 17-19, 1995. Plenary speakers:

Frederick Erickson, Charles Goodwin, Heidi Hamilton,

Deborah Schiffrin, Roger Shuy, and Deborah Tannen. Contact:

GLS 1995, G.U. Dept. of Linguistics, ICC 479, Washington,

DC 20057-1068; gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu; gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet;

tel: 202/687-6166.



*International Linguistics Association, ILA, Discourse and Text

Analysis, March 10-12, 1995. Contact: Ruth Brend, 3363

Burbank Dr., Ann Arbor, MI 48105;

Ruth.Brend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu; Tel: 313/665-2787; Fax:

313/665-9743.



*9th Annual Symposium on Arabic Linguistics, March 10-12,

1995. Contact G.U. Arabic Department, ICC 463, Washington,

DC 20057-1082; solernoe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu; Tel: 202/687-

5743.



********************************************************

PRE-CONFERENCE SESSIONS: March 6-8, 1995

The pre-conference sessions will be held in the Intercultural

Center of Georgetown University. Please contact the individual

organizers for more information on the content of the sessions

only. To register, see registration form or contact GURT

Coordinator.



Preliminary schedule:



MONDAY, MARCH 6, 1995



Spanish Linguistics I

Organizers: Dr. Hector Campos, Mr. Eric Holt, and Ms.

Norma Catalan

     G.U. Department of Spanish

     Washington, DC 20057-0989

     (202) 687-6134

     hcampos[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Issues in Slavic Linguistics

Organizer:   Dr. David R. Andrews

     G.U. Department of Russian

     Washington, DC 20057-0990

     (202) 687-6108/6147

    andrewsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



African Linguistics VI

Organizer:   Rev. Solomon Sara, S.J., Ph.D.

     G.U. Department of Linguistics

     Washington, DC 20057-1068

     (202) 687-5956

     ssara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Discourse and Agency: Responsibility and Deception

Organizer:   Dr. Patricia E. O'Connor

     G.U. Department of English

     Washington, DC 20057-1048

     (202) 687-7622; Fax: 687-5445

     oconnorpe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu





TUESDAY, MARCH 7, 1995



Spanish Linguistics II

Organizers: Dr. Hector Campos, Mr. Eric Holt, and Ms. Norma

Catalan

     G.U. Department of Spanish

     Washington, DC 20057-0989

     (202) 687-6134

     hcampos[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Teaching and Learning Spoken Arabic

Organizer:   Dr. Margaret Nydell

     G.U. Department of Arabic

     Washington, DC 20057-1082

     (202) 687-5743



History of Linguistics

Organizer:   Dr. Kurt R. Jankowsky

     G.U. Department of German

     Washington, DC 20057-0994

     (202) 687-5812



Innovative Audio and Looking at Multimedia (two sessions)

Organizer:   Jackie M. Tanner, Director

     G.U. Language Learning Technology

     Washington, DC 20057-0987

     (202) 687-5766

     jtanner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Issues in Foreign Language Program Direction I

Organizer: Dr. Ronald P. Leow

    G.U. Department of Spanish

    Washington, DC 20057-0909

    (202) 687-6134

    rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet

    rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu







WEDNESDAY, MARCH 8, 1995



Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis

Organizer:   Dr. Susan Herring

     Program in Linguistics

     University of Texas

     Arlington, TX 76019

     (817) 273-3133

     susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu



Celebration of Bilingual Immersion Programs

Organizer:   Prof. Dorothy B. Goodman

     Friends of International Education

     P.O. Box 4800

     Washington, DC 20008

     (202) 363-8510



Issues in Foreign Language Program Direction II

Organizer:   Dr. Ronald P. Leow

     G.U. Department of Spanish

     Washington, DC 20057-0989

     (202) 687-6134

     rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet

     rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



***********************************************************

TUTORIALS (for Connor-Linton and Spielmann tutorials,

maximum of 20 participants; no participant limit for Krashen

workshop):



MONDAY, MARCH 6

"Criterion-referenced curriculum and test development for

language teachers and administrators"

Presenter: Dr. Jeff Connor-Linton, G.U. Dept of Linguistics,

(202) 687-6156

  Criterion-referenced measurement will first be explained and

exemplified, especially in contrast to norm-referenced

measurement. Next, the process of criterion-referenced language

test development (CRLTD) and its benefits for language testing

(increasing positive backwash and content validity) will be

described. A hands-on workshop on criterion-referenced test

specification will follow, which models the process teachers and

administrators may use in their own classrooms and programs.

Finally, ways in which criterion-referenced test specification

process can be used to improve language curriculum coherence

and articulation will be discussed.



TUESDAY, MARCH 7

"Language acquisition and language education: A review of

research and theory and current issues"

Presenter: Dr. Steve Krashen, School of Education, University

of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089-0031



  This workshop will cover, and attempt to integrate, material

presented at my GURT presentations since 1989. It will review

evidence for and against the input hypothesis, the Reading

Hypothesis, applications of the input hypothesis to beginning

and intermediate language and literacy development, the role of

light reading, and applications to bilingual education.



WEDNESDAY, MARCH 8

Authentic documents in the language class: Theoretical

perspectives and didactic applications

Presenter: Dr. Guy Spielmann, G.U. Department of French,

(202) 687-5717



  This workshop proposes to examine in detail the theoretical

premises (based on elements from pragmatics, philosophy of

language, and semiotics) which justify an extensive use of

documents in elementary and intermediate language courses.

It will also provide very concrete and actual examples of how

this can be done to achieve optimal didactic impact.

  There is an apparent consensus today on the usefulness and

value of authentic documents in teaching foreign languages.

Such accord, however, only emphasizes the lack of theoretical

grounding on the meaning and the role that documents

should play from the very beginning of instruction.

  If we question why documents are so parsimoniously used in

beginners' classes, and then mostly for illustrative purposes, we

begin to expose some of the most glaring philosophical

problems of language education today. Our point of

departure will be to review the reasons (explicit or not) for

which documents are so sparsely exploited, and trace their

origin to both ideology a set of a priori beliefs about the nature

of language an d a sense of practicality a set of beliefs

about what can be done in class.

  I will then briefly introduce some basic concepts of

Multidisciplinary Integrated Language Education (MILE), in

order to provide new directions in thinking about the value of

documents as primary evidence in the language complex

(including Code, Content, Context, and Culture).

  Through a few very specific examples of activities, I will

indicate how the theoretical premises of MILE can translate into

an interdisciplinary, document-based language class even at the

full beginners' level. I will then conduct a brainstorming

session with participants in order to elicit further examples of

activities reflecting the same fundamental principles.

  Finally, I will discuss some theoretical and practical

considerations on the collection and selection of documents, as

well as the limitations to their use.



***************************************************************

GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY ROUND TABLE

(GURT) 1995 **HOTELS**



The following hotels have made special arrangements to reserve

rooms for GURT '95 registrants at reduced rates. Please make

all arrangements directly with the hotel, identifying yourself as

attending the Georgetown University Round Table.

Reservation office staff should be able to identify the group and

group rate. However, should you experience difficulty in

making reservations, we have provided the name of the

hotel representative with whom the Round Table made the

arrangements. The Round Table provides this list as a courtesy

to registrants but does not express any preference for one

facility over another. Of course, GURT registrants are

welcome to select hotels which do not appear on this list.

Rates are per night and do not include local taxes (District of

Columbia tax is 13% per night plus an occupancy tax of $3.00

per night. Virginia tax is 9.75% per night).



Days Inn

 Contact: Jim Skaats

2201 Arlington Boulevard, Arlington, Va. 22201

voice: 703/525 0300; fax: 703/525 5671

$55 single or double; $5/night for extra bed

Deadline: February 15





Georgetown Suites

 Contact: Pamela Smith

1111 30th Street, NW, Washington, D.C. 20007

voice: 800/348 7203 or 202/298 7800; fax: 202/333 5792

$120 studio (sg/d), $135 1 brm (sg/d)

Deadline: February 13



Georgetown University Conference Center

  Contact: Stephanie McGill

3800 Reservoir Road, NW, Washington, D.C. 20057

voice: 800/446-9476 or 202/687-3232

$109 single; $124 double

Deadline: February 6



Guest Quarters Suite Hotel

  Contact: Tracy Hoar

2500 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Washington, D.C. 20037

voice: 800/424 2900 or 202/333 8060

$123 single or double



Deadline: January 27



Guest Quarters Suites Hotel

  Contact: Barbara Link-McNeil

801 New Hampshire Avenue, NW, Washington, D.C. 20037

voice: 800/424 2900 or 202/785 2000; fax: 202/785 9485

$123 single; $138 double

Deadline: February 7



Holiday Inn Georgetown

  Contact: Kim Soileau

2101 Wisconsin Avenue, NW, Washington, D.C. 20007

voice: 800/465 4329 or 202/338 4600; fax: 202/333 6113

$89 single or double

Deadline: February 7



Key Bridge Marriott

  Contact: Mark Frisone

1401 Lee Highway, Arlington, Va. 22209

voice: 800/327-9789 or 703/524 6400; fax: 703/524 8964

$125 single or double; $15/night for extra bed

Deadline: February 21



Savoy Suites Georgetown

  Contact: Dorothy Spates

2505 Wisconsin Avenue, NW, Washington, D.C. 20007

voice: 202/337 9700; fax: 202/337 3644

$75 single, $85 double

Deadline: February 7





*** Air Travel to D.C.****



District Travel Agency, Ltd. is the designated travel agent for

the Georgetown University Round Table (GURT) and each of

the other conferences listed here. Special

arrangements have been made with United Airlines, which will

provide air fares to the Washington metropolitan area at a

discount of 5% off already discounted fares and 10% off of all

others. To make reservations, please call District Travel

directly at 1-800-277-1050, (202) 659-9656, or contact

by fax at (202) 872-8489. Please indicate to the District Travel

staff that you are attending the Georgetown University

meeting.  If you experience any difficulties, please ask to speak

to Ms. Meena Singh, President of District Travel, with whom

these arrangements were made.





*******************REGISTRATION*********************

Registration form. Please snailMAIL a hard copy of this form

and your check or money order (payable to GEORGETOWN

UNIVERSITY; no credit cards) to: Carolyn A. Straehle,

Coordinator, GURT 1995, School of Languages and Linguistics,

303 Intercultural Center, Georgetown University, Washington,

DC 20057-1067, USA.



PRE-REGISTRATION DEADLINE: (postmarked no later

than) FEBRUARY 4, 1995. After this date, on-site fees apply.

A 10% handling fee will be charged for refunds. Badges and

registration material are not mailed, but will be available

the days of the conference at the registration site in the

Intercultural Center (ICC).



ALL GEORGETOWN FACULTY/STUDENTS/STAFF: If

you did not receive mailing with separate registration

information, please contact GURT office.



Please print clearly:



FIRST NAME_________________________________________



LAST NAME___________________________________________



PROFESSIONAL

AFFILIATION_________________________________________



MAILING

ADDRESS_____________________________________________

____________________________________________________



CITY_____________________________STATE/PROV._______

________ZIP______________COUNTRY___________________



TELEPHONE________________________FAX______________

__________E-MAIL______________________________________



Please check here________ if you plan to attend opening night

plenary session and reception, Wednesday, March 8.



Please mark with (X) categories which apply:



Please note that TUTORIALS are NOT included in any of the

packages or daily rates below; the cost for tutorials is $75.00

each (or $80.00 after February 4) in addition to the base

registration fee.



*************PRE-REGISTRATION RATE********

(postmarked NO LATER THAN FEBRUARY 4, 1995)



FULL CONFERENCE (presessions, main sessions, opening

plenary/reception)   _____ $165.00

MAIN SESSION (main sessions, opening plenary/reception)

          ______ $120.00

PRESESSIONS (presessions only)

       ______ $ 75.00





DISCOUNTED RATES: (presessions, main sessions, opening

plenary/reception):

  Senior citizens (with copy of ID) ______ $ 75.00

  Students (with copy of ID)     ______ $ 60.00



GROUP RATES: Available for groups of 5 or more by

   February 4 only (no on-site group registration). Please

   contact Conference Coordinator to make arrangements.



INDIVIDUAL DAYS OR COMBINATIONS:



PRESESSIONS (Tutorials not included)

Monday, March 6   ______ $ 25.00

Tuesday, March 7  ______ $ 25.00

Wednesday, March 8 (evening plenary/reception not included)

   ____ $ 25.00



MAIN SESSIONS (Tutorials not included)

Wednesday, March 8: evening plenary/reception______ $ 30.00

Thursday, March 9  ______ $ 50.00

Friday, March 10  ______ $ 50.00

Saturday, March 11 ______ $ 50.00



TUTORIALS

1. Connor-Linton (March 6)  ______ $ 75.00

2. Krashen (March 7)     ______ $ 75.00

3. Spielmann (March 8)    ______ $ 75.00



TOTAL ENCLOSED

$



*************ON-SITE RATE*****************

(ALL REGISTRATIONS after FEBRUARY 4, 1995)



FULL CONFERENCE (presessions, main sessions, opening

plenary/reception)   _____ $195.00

MAIN SESSION (main sessions, opening plenary/reception)

          ______ $160.00

PRESESSIONS (presessions only)

       ______ $ 90.00





DISCOUNTED RATES: (presessions, main sessions, opening

plenary/reception):

  Senior citizens (with copy of ID) ______ $ 90.00

  Students (with copy of ID)     ______ $ 75.00



GROUP RATES: Available for groups of 5 or more by

   February 4 only (no on-site group registration). Please

   contact Conference Coordinator to make arrangements.



INDIVIDUAL DAYS OR COMBINATIONS:



PRESESSIONS (Tutorials not included)

Monday, March 6   ______ $ 35.00

Tuesday, March 7  ______ $ 35.00

Wednesday, March 8 (evening plenary/reception not included)

   ____ $ 35.00



MAIN SESSIONS (Tutorials not included)

Wednesday, March 8: evening plenary/reception______ $ 40.00

Thursday, March 9  ______ $ 60.00

Friday, March 10  ______ $ 60.00

Saturday, March 11 ______ $ 60.00



TUTORIALS

1. Connor-Linton (March 6)  ______ $ 80.00

2. Krashen (March 7)     ______ $ 80.00

3. Spielmann (March 8)    ______ $ 80.00



TOTAL ENCLOSED

$





So that the University may provide reasonable accommodations,

we ask that you notify the GURT 1995 Coordinator of any

disability as soon as possible. All information you provide will

be treated confidentially.



***********************************



DRIVING DIRECTIONS to Georgetown University Campus: Call 202/687-4355)





Parking. Discount parking rates are available to GURT

attendees in Lot A, Leavey Parking Garage, and Lot 3. When

you arrive, please tell lot attendant that you are attending the

Round Table (or GURT) Conference.



***********************************



For more information, please contact Carolyn A. Straehle,

Coordinator  *  GURT 1995  * Georgetown University

School of Languages and Linguistics  * 303 Intercultural

Center  *  Washington, DC 20057-1067

e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu *

voice: 202/687-5726  *  fax: 202/687-5712

           ******

To obtain GURT '95 information from the World Wide Web,

use the following address:

URL:

http://www.georgetown.edu/conferences/gurt95/gurt95.html





******************************************************

For INEXPENSIVE STUDENT ACCOMMODATIONS check with

Washington Student Center

at the Washington International AYH-Hostel

1009 11th St., NW

Washington, DC 20001

Tel: 202/737/2333



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Jan 1995 16:27:19 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Put Downs



My all-time favorite is half a bubble off plumb.



Thereis a whole series from fast foods: one tomato short

of a whopper--and infintie variations.





btw, the target in the suburbs is tarzhee. The one near

me is targhetto.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jan 1995 to 8 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 414 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Euphonizing (?) proper names (4)

 2. (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names (2)

 3. Put Downs

 4. Put-downs

 5. Variation on Gallicisms

 6. that military rank (2)

 7. Edith Juan (2)

 8. Let the word go out



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 13:42:11 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Hi Dennis----------- Great examples of "Gallification" or just plain

Frenchifying in good ol' Am Eng.  Roy Row-zhay and Krow-zhay. Reminds me of a Redd Foxx skit where he was holding a bottle of wine. Someone asked if

it was a "rose` from Beaujolais," or something equally snobbish sounding. "No," he replied, "it's discount counter from Zhay See Pen-NEE." Well, it was

funny at the time.



But the whole process nicely pokes fun at snobbism inherent in language.



By the way, do you ever eat at the Traveler's Club in Okemos? It's right

across the line from East Lansin, I believe. Friend of mine, Jennifer

Brooke, has run it for years. If you stop in, say hi from



Chris Brooks in Kuwait



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 07:22:46 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



With reference to Tim Behrend's query about what people with last names like

Fuchs do: I had a student named Sandy Penix several years ago. Her strategy

was to answer "HERE!" in roll call as soon as I got to Sandy. .

.                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

aka "Bird-Dog" in the '50's



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:02:31 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



e)

 

 My own surname was moderately productive of slurs in

 elementary school (Behrend - -   Bare End, hahaha), but I've always

 wondered what families named Fuch and Fuchs do? I've seen the name

 frequently in print, but have never heard it pronounced in English.

 

 Tim Behrend





I was always fond of Glowka-Cola myself, although the mutilation of Blowka

was never welcome.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 06:49:16 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Put Downs



Regarding "not playing with a full deck", attached is a list I received in late

1991.



-- Jim

-----------------

[ In rec.humor.unfunny, they had a contest to collect all the phrases for

saying, "he's not playing with a full deck." Here is the collection. ]



A bad spot on the disk.

A couple of open splices.

A few bits shy of a word.

A loose chip on the micro processor.

A quart low.

About as sharp as a sack of wet leather.

All booster - no payload.

All crown - no filling.

An 8080 in a 68000 environment

As thick as two short planks.

Attic's a little dusty.

Back burners not fully operating.

Body by Fisher - brains by Mattel

CPU not connected to the bus.

Car's only got three wheels, and one's going flat.

Doesn't have all his dogs barking.

Doesn't have all of his groceries in the same bag.

Doesn't have all the dots on his dice.

Driving with two wheels in the sand.

Dumb as a box of rocks.

Got a few tiles missing from his Space Shuttle.

Got a screw loose.

Got one boot stuck in the sand.

Got the mental agility of a soap dish.

Had a head crash.

Half a bubble off plumb.

Has a room temperature IQ.

Hasn't got all his china in the cupboard.

Hasn't got enough sense to come in out of the rain.

Hasn't got enough sense to stay out in the rain. ('60s flower child)

He ain't wrapped too tight.

He has both oars in the water, but on the same side of the boat!

He is playing hockey with a warped puck

He left the store without all of his groceries.

He's about as smart as bait...

He's dumber than a red brick.

He's got a few wait states.

He's got a mind like a steel trap - anything entering gets crushed and mangled

He's got a mind like a steel trap -- full of mice.

He's got a mind like a steel trap -- rusty and stuck closed.

He's got the attention span of an overripe grapefruit.

He's not digging in the same ditch with the rest of us!

He's not running on full thrusters.

He's paged-out.

He's running at 400 baud

He's swapped out.

Her antenna doesn't pick up all the channels.

His little red choo choo done jumped the track.

His receiver is off the hook.

His skylight leaks a little.

How 'bout There's no wind in the windmills of his mind.

If he had another brain, it'd be lonely.

If he were any more stupid, he would have to be watered twice a week.

It would be easier to count the bricks left than the bricks missing!

Judging by the old saying, "What you don't know can't hurt you", s/he's

 practically invulnerable.

Leads 3 & 4 (RS-232) permanently connected to ground.

Lugnuts rattling in the hubcaps.

Nine pence in the shilling.

No one at the throttle.

Nothing between the stethoscopes.

Oil doesn't reach his dipstick

Only operating at about half a watt.

Over the Rainbow

Pin 8 is floating.

Raw cookie dough.

Renewable energy source for hot air ballons.

Sailboat fuel for brains.

Sending back packets, but the checksums are wrong.

Skating on the wrong side of the ice.

Some drink from the fountain of knowledge, but he just gargled.

Somebody else is doing the driving for that boy!

Someone blew out his pilot light

Surfing in Nebraska

Teflon brain (nothing sticks)

The caboose seems to be pulling the engine.

The carnival has closed.

The cheese has slid off his cracker.

The gates are down, the lights are flashing, but the train isn't coming.

The synapses are about that far apart.

Toys in the attic

Vacancy on the top floor.

Was hiding behind the door when they passed out brains.

Was napping in the nut pile the day that God was cracking nuts.

Your clock doesn't have all its numbers.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:56:19 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Put-downs



"A few bricks shy of a load"

"Missing a few marbles"



There are a lot of mass/space metaphors going on here, too:

as if the mind was assembled from parts, and if you don't have

enough parts, it doesn't work right.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 09:23:59 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Variation on Gallicisms



hyper may be negative in some senses, but not all, as the popularity of

star wars' "hyperspace" attests, not to mention hypertext, hypercard, and

hypermedia. I guess it's the sci/tech sense rather than the psych sense,

so it may have a more limited range. As Mike Picone notes, Bigg's

hypermarket is run by a largely French company. We could do worse: we

could have mega- tapped for the slot: they're opening a new Mega-K Mart

here this month, and Mega-Target is in the works. I don't think the

pseudo-gallic pronunciation of target has any connection with the French

origins of the word, btw. Just a little joke coinage of the hyperfolk. We

had a supermarket here once called ValuChek. One of the first discount

groceries locally, it was definitely downscale in merchandise and

clientele. Many people jokingly called it "vaLOOchek," as if it were an

eastern european name. It's now a County Market.



dennis

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 12:11:53 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: that military rank



Purely speculation, but I see "lieutenant" derived from lieu meaning

place (as in, "in lieu of") and tenant meaning holder, so (a) a

lieutenant is a placeholder, someone acting for a higher official

(with the military rank a derived term) and the pronunciation may

have been put together from the pronunciation of the parts. Alternatively,

the US pronunciation may come from the spelling. Either way, I wonder

what the British "leftenant" pronunciation comes from.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:10:16 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Edith Juan



Dear Colleagues Across the Nation and the World,



    I have conferred with a number of my colleagues here in our

distinguished faculty, and we cannot for the life of us figure out the joke

in "Edith Juan." The best we can come up with is "Eat a thwan." What's a

"thwan"?



Not at all happy to sign my name on this one,



XXXXX















Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:23:56 EST

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: that military rank



Actually, good speculation by Vicki Rosenzweig as to "lieutenant,"

originating in English in the 1300's as "one acting in the place of a

superior (officer)." The "lefteneant" has etymologists doing even more

theorizing. Was it a misinterpreted use of a "v" for the "u"? Probably

not says OED. Some association with the idea of "leave" (by your leave=

with your permission) of "lief" may have gotten mixed up with the variant

form.



                    David



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 14:30:45 EST

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Euphonizing (?) proper names



One of our prominent Georgia families is Fuque, pronounced [fu-kwe].



                    David



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 15:06:34 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Speaking of Ms. Penix and the Fuchs families, one of my favorite ball-players

was the Yankee (et al.) utility infielder Rusty Kuntz. Pronounced, of course,

"Kyoonts" (what was his alternative?). Speaking of athletes, though, I've al-

ways wondered why there seem to be so many UNmotivated, NON-taboo-avoiding

failures of correspondence between pronunciation and orthography. Here are

some examples of this phenomenon:

   Brett Favre (Green Bay Packer quarterback): pronounced "Farv"

   Haywood Jeffires (Houston Oiler receiver): pronounced "Jeffries"

   Isiah Thomas (Detroit Piston point guard): pronounced the way

                    Isaiah is, [ayZEYuh]

   Malivai Washington (U. S. tennis player): pronounced "MaliVEEya"

Unlike the motivated cases (where the closest non-taboo pronunciation is

evidently the goal), these generally involve metathesis. But why?

  (By the way, re Edith Juan: I assume it is indeed "eat-a-thwan", the

eatee being the waterfowl of the thame name. Not quite as neat as Mike

Hunt, perhaps, but if anyone wants to collect these, there are some long lists

available at the alt.tv.simpsons site,since one of Bart Simpson's many con-

tributions to the cultural milieu of Springfield is the covertly obscene

phone message left with the proprietor of Moe's Tavern.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 16:49:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Edith Juan



Dear Wayne:

Since you are not a Louisville adolescent (and apparently neither are your

friends and colleagues) it will have to be explained.

Edith is eateth (eat+eth)-I even joked about philology to help you along with

this. Juan is One; therefore, eateth one, a reference (at least in our

adolescent minds) to fellatio.

Dennis (a former Louisville adolescent) Preston

P.S.: In fairness, it should be pointed out that accurate Spanish

pronunciation will also get in the way of the joke, if joke such trash may be

called.

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 17:31:53 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Euphonizing (?) proper names



Concerning Brett Favre, pronounced `farv', I don't know if it is a

case of metathesis or not. In many new world dialects of French, the

syllable final -re is never pronounced: the leading Cajun filmmaker,

for example, Glenn Pitre ("Belizaire le Cajun"), pronounces his last

name `pete'. This is pretty much the case everywhere in Louisiana,

as far as I know. That still dosn't explain the `r', however. But there

is also a lot of intrusive -r- out there. In other cases, like that of

Isiah Thomas, it's probably just a case of nonstandard spelling. There's

a lot of that here in the South. Our departmental secretary, for example,

spells her name Earnestine.



On humoristic `euphonism': As most everyone probably knows already,

a very inventive use of names figures in Car Talk's credits. My all-time

favorite is the firm cited for legal consultations: Dewey, Cheatum & Howe.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Jan 1995 21:02:32 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Let the word go out



Thanks to Natalie's nimbleness, y'all know already the choices we made for

Word of the Year at our Coronado confab. But I thought you might want to see

(and perhaps improve) the press release I'm preparing, to make available to

those in the media who belatedly inquire.



'CYBER' AND 'MORPH' CHOSEN

AS NEW WORDS OF THE YEAR 1994



 In a tie vote at the American Dialect Society's annual meeting Dec. 29, both

"cyber" and "morph" were chosen as New Words of the Year 1994.

 "Cyber," pertaining to computers and electronic communication, was

recognized not only for itself but because of the hundreds of compounds it

has produced, such as "cyberculture," "cybercrime," "cyberhype," "cybersex,"

"cybersurfer." It is not brand new, but newly prominent.

 "Morph," meaning to change form, is also not a brand-new word but was

similarly prominent in 1994. Children already know it from the Mighty

Morphin Power Rangers; politicians learned about it as they were "morphed" by

enemies in the elections of November 1994.

 Preceding the final vote on New Word of the Year, members and friends of the

American Dialect Society, meeting at Le Meridien in Coronado, Calif., also

chose these winners in six particular categories:

 1. Most beautiful: "sylvanshine," the newly discovered night-time

iridescence of forest trees.

 2. Most imaginative: "guillermo," an e-mail message in a foreign language.

 It is a bilingual play on words: the Spanish name Guillermo has the

nickname "Memo."

 3. Most trendy: "dress down day," also known as "casual day," a workday

(usually Friday) when employees are allowed to dress casually.

 4. Most euphemistic: "challenged" as a polite way of indicating an

undesirable or unappealing condition, in combinations like "abdominally

challenged," "classically challenged."

 5. Most promising: "Infobahn," a new short term (with a play on the German

"Autobahn") for "information superhighway" or the Internet.

 6. Most useful: "gingrich," to deal with government agencies, policies, and

people in the manner of newly-elected U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich. It

is most often used in the passive, to say that an agency, for example, is in

danger of being "gingriched."

 "Cyber" was the nomination of John and Adele Algeo, conductors of "Among the

New Words" in the American Dialect Society quarterly journal American Speech.

 "Morph" was proposed by David Barnhart, editor of the new-words quarterly

Barnhart Dictionary Companion. This year's categories and nominees were

determined by 18 American Dialect Society members and friends in an open

meeting of the New Words Committee the day before the final vote.



[Then follows a list of previous years' winners.]



Be sure to start collecting nominees for WOTY 1995!

Best wishes - AAllan



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Jan 1995 to 9 Jan 1995

**********************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 691 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Edith Juan

 2. Words of the Year

 3. GLS 1995: Developments in Discourse Analysis

 4. PAPERS for ADS at Georgetown

 5. Cultural Olympiad (fwd)

 6. More Responses (4)

 7. Gullah Bible



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 08:06:40 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Edith Juan



 Dear Wayne:

 Since you are not a Louisville adolescent (and apparently neither are your

 friends and colleagues) it will have to be explained.

 Edith is eateth (eat+eth)-I even joked about philology to help you along with

 this. Juan is One; therefore, eateth one, a reference (at least in our

 adolescent minds) to fellatio.

 Dennis (a former Louisville adolescent) Preston

 P.S.: In fairness, it should be pointed out that accurate Spanish

 pronunciation will also get in the way of the joke, if joke such trash may be

 called.

  22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



A private response told me that Edith Juan meant "Eat THIS one." Did I

misunderstand another posting that seemed to imply that a "thwan" was a

lisped "swan"? Edith Juan is not a good joke.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:58:28 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Words of the Year



I think we need to keep emphasizing that the Words of the Year are not

usually new words and possibly remove the word "newly" from "newly

prominent." I remember last year having to respond to lots of ridicule

of ADS as being "way behind the times." It's starting again this year.

Somebody forwarded Allan's press-release posting to Words-L this morning,

where it has already gotten one response:



  Date:     Tue, 10 Jan 1995 07:03:45 CST

  Sender: English Language Discussion Group  WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  From: Tushar Samant  samant[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.UCHICAGO.EDU 

  Subject:   Re: Let the word go out

  To: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L  WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

 

  All those words are for *94*?

 

  Where the hell have they been?

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 09:13:45 -0500

From:  Shari Kendall  KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: GLS 1995: Developments in Discourse Analysis



updated 1/10/95 (includes speakers and paper titles)



              **********



        The Georgetown Linguistics Society

              presents



     GLS 1995: DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS



              **********



           February 17-19, 1995

       Georgetown University, Washington D.C.



GLS 1995: DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS is an interdisciplinary

conference featuring presentations and colloquia focusing on a variety

of topics in discourse analysis, ranging from discourse analytic theory

to the use of discourse analysis as a tool in other disciplines. Papers

address discourse in the media, the workplace, the classroom, everyday

conversation, and in therapeutic, political, legal, religious, and other

institutional contexts, addressing such areas as gender,identity, argument,

authority, and narrative. The discourse analytic approaches include

interactional sociolinguistics, critical discourse analysis, ethnography,

conversation analysis, and cognitive science. The conference presenters,

paper titles, and plenary speakers are provided below in this announcement.





**HOW TO CONTACT GLS 1995**



Requests for information, including information about TRANSPORTATION,

ACCOMODATIONS, and a DISCOUNT ON AIRFARE, may be addressed to the

Georgetown Linguistics Society:



    GLS 1995             gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

    Georgetown University       gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet

    Department of Linguistics     202-687-6166

    479 Intercultural Center

    Washington, D.C. 20057-1068



Regularly updated information about GLS 1995 is also available

through the World-Wide Web Georgetown Linguistics Home Page:

http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html





**REGISTRATION**



____________________________________________________



PRE-REGISTRATION FORM FOR **GLS 1995**



Please complete and print this form or provide the required information

on another sheet of paper and mail to GLS 1995, Georgetown University,

Department of Linguistics, 479 Intercultural Center, Washington, D.C.

20057-1068



Name:

Affiliation:

Mailing address:

E-mail address:

Phone number:



Registration Fee.

  Please remit the appropriate registration fee in the form of a

  check or money order made payable to "Georgetown University":



                   Student    Non-Student

  Preregistration (through Feb. 10) $20.00     $30.00

  On-site registration        $30.00     $40.00



Attendance Needs



( ) American Sign Language interpretation



( ) crash space (first-come basis)



( ) other (please specify)

______________________________________________________





**CONFERENCE SCHEDULE**



Friday, February 17   2:00 pm to 7:45 pm, Reception at 8:00 pm

Saturday, February 18  9:30 am to 7:15 pm

Sunday, February 19   9:30 am to 5:00 pm





**PLENARY SPEAKERS**



*Frederick Erickson, University of Pennsylvania



*Charles Goodwin, University of South Carolina



*Heidi Hamilton, Georgetown University



*Deborah Schiffrin, Georgetown University



*Roger Shuy, Georgetown University



*Deborah Tannen, Georgetown University





**COLLOQUIA**



DISCOURSE AND CONFLICT (Coordinator: Christina Kakava)

*Faye C. McNair-Knox

  Discourse and conflict in African-American English womantalk:

  Patterns of grammaticalized disapproval in narratives

*Christina Kakava

  Evaluation in personal and vicarious stories: Mirror of a Greek

  man's self

*Patricia E. O'Connor

  'You can't keep a man down': Positioning in conflict talk and in

  violent acts

*Laine Berman

  Life stories from the streets: Homeless children's narratives

  of violence and the construction of a better world



DEVELOPMENTS IN CONVERSATION ANALYSIS: OH, WHAT,OR, PARDON

 (Coordinator: Maria Egbert)

*Paul Drew

  'What'?: A sequential basis for an 'open' form of repair initiation

  in conversation (and some implications for cognitive approaches

  to interaction)

*Maria Egbert

  The relevance of interactants' eye gaze to the organization of

  other-initiated repair: The case of German 'bitte?' ('pardon?')

*Anna Lindstrom

  'Or'-constructed inquiries as a resource for probing the relevance

  of prior talk in Swedish conversation

*John Heritage

  'Oh'-prefaced responses to inquiry



DEVELOPMENTS IN SIGNED LANGUAGE DISCOURSE (Coordinator: Melanie Metzger)

*Ruth Morgan

  The interplay of place and space in a Namibian Sign Language

  narrative

*Kathleen Wood

  Negotiating literate identities: Life stories of deaf students

*Susan M. Mather

  Adult-deaf toddler discourse

*Tina M. Neumann

  Figurative language in an American Sign Language poem:

  Personification and prosopopoeia

*Scott Liddell and Melanie Metzger

  Spatial mapping in an ASL Narrative: Examining the use of

  multiple surrogate spaces

*Elizabeth A. Winston

  Spatial mapping in comparative discourse frames in American

  Sign Language



FRAMES THEORY (Coordinator: Janice Hornyak)

*Janice Hornyak

  Personal and professional frames in office discourse

*Susan Hoyle

  Negotiation of footing in play

*Carolyn Kinney

  The interaction of frames, roles and footings: Conversational

  strategies of co-leaders in a long-term group

*Yoshiko Nakano

  Interplay of expectations in cross-cultural miscommunication: A

  case study of negotiations between Americans and Japanese

*Suwako Watanabe

  Framing in group discussion: A comparison between Japanese and

  American students





**PAPER SESSIONS**



NEGOTIATING AUTHORITY AND STATUS

*Cynthia Dickel Dunn

  The language of the tea teacher: Shifting indexical ground in a

  Japanese pedagogical context

*Lena Gavruseva

  'What is this drivel about garages?': The construction of

  authoritative self in the cover letter discourse

*Geoffrey Raymond

  The voice of authority: Sequence and turn design in live news

  broadcasts

*Hideko Nornes Abe

  Discourse analysis on distal and direct styles of Japanese

  women's speech



WILL THE REAL AUTHOR PLEASE STAND UP?: EXPLOITING THE SPEECH OF OTHERS

*Richard Buttny

  Talking race on campus: Reported speech in accounts of race

  relations at a university campus

*Akira Satoh

  Reported speech in English and Japanese: A comparative analysis

*Joyce Tolliver

  Evidentiality and accountability in literary narrative



INTERPRETING, CHALLENGING, EVALUATING GENDER

*Jennifer Curtis

  Contestation of masculine identities in a battering intervention

  program

*Keller S. Magenau

  More than feminine: Attending to power and social distance

  dimensions in spoken and written workplace communication

*Keli Yerian

  Male and female TV directors talking on the air and off

*Donna Trousdale

  Social languages and privileging: Gender and school science

  discourse



DISCOURSE INFLUENCES ON SYNTACTIC CATEGORIES AND STRUCTURES

*Jennifer Arnold

  The interaction between discourse focus and verbal form in

  Mapudungun

*Rajesh Bhatt

  Information status and word order in Hindi

*Paul Hopper

  Discourse and the category 'verb' in English



DISCURSIVE ENACTMENTS OF CULTURAL IDEOLOGIES

*Isolda Carranza

  Stance-making in oral interviews

*Agnes Weiyun He

  Stories as interactional resources: Narrative activity in academic

  counseling encounters

*Shari E. Kendall

  Religion and experience: Constructed dialogue, narrative, and

  life story in religious testimonies



POLITICAL, INTELLECTUAL, INSTITUTIONAL IDENTITIES

*Anna De Fina

  Pronominal choice, identity and solidarity in political discourse

*Charlotte Linde

  Other people's stories: Third person narrative in individual and

  group identity

*Karen Tracy

  The identity work of questioning in intellectual discussion



COMPUTATIONAL APPROACHES TO DISCOURSE ANALYSIS

*Megan Moser and Johanna D. Moore

  An approach to the study of discourse cues

*Yan Qu

  A computational approach for automatically extracting discourse

  rules

*Donald Lewis

  Theme and eventline in a Classical Hebrew narrative: A

  computer-assisted analysis



COMPETING DISCOURSES AND DOMINANCE

*Tony Hak

  'She has clear delusions': The production of a factual account

*Catherine F. Smith

  Democratic discourses

*John Clark

  Standard and vernacular: Persuasive discourse styles in conflict

*Kathryn Remlinger

  Keeping it straight: The socio-linguistic construction of a

  heterosexual ideology in a campus community



INTERACTIONAL CONSTRUCTION OF COGNITIVE UNDERSTANDING

*Pamela W. Jordan and Megan Moser

  Global coordination in computer-mediated conversation

*Claudia Roncarati

  Repetition and cognition in the information flow: A case-study

  in Brazilian Portuguese database

*Andrea Tyler and John Bro

  Examining perceptions of text comprehensibility: The effect of

  order and contextualization cues

*Toshiko Hamaguchi

  Manifestation of shared knowledge in conversation



HUMOROUS FACES

*Nancy K. Baym

  Humorous performance in a computer-mediated group

*Diana Boxer and Florencia Cortes-Conde

  Teasing that bonds: Conversational joking and identity display



CONVERSATIONAL MOVES

*C. Antaki, F. Diaz, A. Collins

  Participants' orientation to footing: Evidence from conversational

  completion

*Peter Muntigl

  Saving face in argument: An analysis of face-threatening

  disagreements

*Martin Warren

  How do conversations begin and end?



INTERACTIONAL EXPLANATIONS FOR PATTERNS OF VARIATION

*Scott Fabius Kiesling

  Using interactional discourse analysis to explain variation

*Sylvie Dubois

  The coherent network of effects on discourse



PRIVILEGED VIEWS IN MEDIA DISCOURSE

*Gertraud Benke

  News about news: Textual features of news agency copies and

  their usage in the newsproduction

*Debra Graham

  Racism in the reporting of the O.J. Simpson arrest: A critical

  discourse analysis approach

*Ian Hutchby

  Arguments and asymmetries on talk radio

*Joanna Thornborrow

  Talk shows and democratic discourse



NARRATIVE STRUCTURES ACROSS LANGUAGES

*Viola G. Miglio

  Tense alternations in medieval prose texts

*Asli Ozyurek

  How children use connectives to talk about a conversation

*Marybeth Culley

  Rhetorical elaborations of a Chiricahua Apache comic narrative

  genre



PRIOR DISCOURSES AND THE STRUCTURE OF CLASSROOM INTERACTION

*Mary Buchinger Bodwell

  "Now what does that mean, 'first draft'?": Adult literacy

  classes and alternative models of editing a text

*Deborah Poole

  The effects of text on talk in a classroom literacy event

*Myriam Torres

  Why teachers do not engage in co-construction of knowledge:

  A critical discourse analysis





**UPCOMING GEORGETOWN CONFERENCES**



Georgetown Round Table on Languages and Linguistics 1995. "Linguistics

and the Education of Second Language Teachers: Ethnolinguistic,

Psycholinguistic, and Sociolinguistic Aspects." Pre-sessions and

conference, March 6-11, 1995. Contact: Carolyn A. Straehle,

202-687-5726, gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu, GURT 1995, 303 ICC, Washington,

D.C. 20057-1067.



(This announcement). Georgetown Linguistics Society (GLS) 1995:

Developments in Discourse Analysis. February 17-19, 1995. Contact:

Coordinators of GLS 1995, 202-687-6166, gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu,

GLS 1995, 479 ICC, Washington, D. C. 20057-1068.



End of announcement. Please distribute as widely as possible.

Thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 10:02:56 -0500

From:  Silke Van Ness  SV478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET 

Subject: PAPERS for ADS at Georgetown



CALL FOR PAPERS



ADS will hold a concurrent session at the 40th Annual Conference of the Interna

  tional Linguistic

Association (partially overlapping with this year's GURT Conference)



Date: from 1 pm Friday through Sunday noon, March 10-12, 1995



Intercultural Center

Georgetown University

Washington, D.C.



Abstracts are invited for a 20 minute talk. The abstract should be no more than

  one-page long,

double spaced, camera ready, in THREE copies, to: Silke Van Ness, Germanic and S

  lavic Lgs &

Lits, HU 216, University at Albany, SUNYA, 1400 Washington Ave., Albany, NY 1222

  2

phone: (518) 442-4122; email SV478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax. albany.edu



Although the ILA general theme is on Discourse and Text Analysis, ADS (and ILA)

  welcomes

papers from all areas of linguistics.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 11:12:59 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cultural Olympiad (fwd)



I am forwarding the following announcement to the list, even though not

strictly dialectological, because it is one of the first expressions of

the Cultural Olympiad.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga





CONVOCATION OF NOBEL LAUREATES OF LITERATURE

TO BE HELD IN ATLANTA



    In keeping with the rich literary legacy of the American South,

The Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games Cultural Olympiad, in

collaboration with The Georgia Review, will host an unprecedented

gathering of the Nobel Laureates of Literature on April 23-25. Sixteen

laureates today represent 15 countries, a range of excellence that also

epitomizes the international spirit of the Olympic Games. Nine of these

distinguished artists have agreed to convene at The Carter Center in

Atlanta in April, making this event the largest gathering of literary

laureates in the 92-year history of the Nobel awards. Participants

include Czeslaw Milosz, Claude Simon, Wole Soyinka, Joseph Brodsky,

Camilo Jose Cela, Octavio Paz, Derek Walcott, Toni Morrison and Kenzaburo

Oe. The Laureates will be joined by former President Jimmy Carter, who

will deliver opening remarks, and Rita Dove, Poet Laureate of the United

States.



    The schedule of events (subject to change) includes: Formal

Convocation Dinner on April 23; opening remarks, a moderated panel

discussion among the laureates, and two readings by laureates on April

24; and a panel discussion, readings, and other program (to be announced)

on April 25.



    Admission to the conference is limited. The conference fee is

$200 ($225 after April 1) and includes the panel sessions, reserved

seating for the readings, box lunches at The Carter Center, parking at

The Carter Center and the Georgia Tech Center for the Arts, bus

transportation to/from the two event sites (for participants who stay at

the conference hotel), a conference packet and a program book produced by

The Georgia Review. The Formal Convocation Dinner, held Sunday night,

April 23, requires a separate fee of $150. The total fee for both the

conference and the Formal Convocation Dinner is $335 ($360 after April

1). Payment by check or VISA must be submitted in conjunction with a

completed registration form. Mail order only, please. To request a

registration form, please call 404-224-1835.



    To receive a School Study Guide regarding the Nobel Laureates

program, you may also call 404-224-1835. Please leave your name,

address, and affiliation, and indicate whether you need a high school,

college, or continuing education guide.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 12:57:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: More Responses



Here are a couple more responses to the Words-L discussion of the ADS

words. I won't send any after this since I don't want to keep beating

a dead horse. But I did want other people to be aware that ADS looks

a bit silly when people think that we think these are new words.



This was in response to the original posting:



  Why do I get the feeling that the ADS is running 2-3 years late ?

  Tony H.



And this was a response to another response:



    Where the hell have they been?

  Getting their news from USA Today.

  -abh



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 14:05:58 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: More Responses



In reply to Natalie's justifiable concern, let me defend Allan's press

release and raise some questions. Allan does say very candidly of cyber,



 "It is not brand new, but newly prominent."



And he adds,



" "Morph," meaning to change form, is also not a brand-new word but was

similarly prominent in 1994. "



I'm not suggesting that the readers of Words-L don't know how to read. I

know in fact that they read quite well. But we have here an instance where

what is said and what is read are often at odds. When I wrote my WOTY

piece for the Chicago Tribune, the op-ed editor called me and suggested

only one change: what I had called the word of the year was actually a

phrase. She therefore wanted to call it "phrase of the year" (we had the

same problem with information superhighway in 1993). I had dealt with this

problem in my second graph (to use the newspaper lingo), but the editor

felt that was too late to prevent misunderstanding. So word of the year,

which is undeniably a snappier phrase, was replaced by phrase of the year,

which I find distinctly flabby. Editors always win, especially if they

authorize the checks.



Is what is happening with Allan's press release is that the qualification

comes too late to do any good? Are readers so conditioned by the

year-in-review pieces that they expect everything to fall within the

twelvemonth? (Did anyone notice that the Weather Channel is doing the

year's best storms in review as well?) Are they so conditioned by

advertising that they expect everything to be new and improved? By Detroit

that they expect a totally redesigned word each year? Hey, I think it's

time to go trade in our words for newer models. And maybe we should

consider those leasing options instead of an outright purchase. I want my

new words to have dual air bags and abs brakes (well, I guess I flogged

that analogy to death).



Anyway, here are my questions:



1. what do we mean by new words? in terms of our contest, and in terms of

the history of language, new words exist on a continuum--few words will

become prominent enough at the moment of their origin to become WOTY. It

takes time. You can't throw in a word in December and expect it to win the

prize (like they do with the new movies).



2. what reactions do we want from our audience (here I'm writing like an

old comp director, which is of course my other job)? I think the words-l

responses are valid, in a way, and we need to write our press releases to

avoid getting those kinds of negative reactions. But maybe what we need is

more than just a list, if the words are pre-known (on the analogy of

pre-driven, previously viewed, and preborn), or so new as to be inscrutable

(as the words in some of the other categories). So we can show word people

words they are familiar with and give them a reason to feel that such words

deserve the WOTY/POTY prize. And maybe, while we're at it, we should

design a statuette (or at least a computer icon) to go with the prize.



hmm?



Dennis (contract with America) B



---



Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 17:07:48 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: More Responses



  In reply to Natalie's justifiable concern, let me defend Allan's press

  release and raise some questions. Allan does say very candidly of cyber,



I hope my concern wasn't construed as a cricicism of Allan's press release.

I think the problems are in the nature of the contest and in the questions

of "new to whom" or "prominent in what way."



  "It is not brand new, but newly prominent."



Here, for example, Allan makes clear that nobody is claiming that the

word "cyber" is brand new. What do we mean by "newly prominent," though?

I think somebody said at the meeting that we were looking for words that

had become more or less mainstream that year -- prominent with the masses?

And I do think it was in 1994 that _Newsweek_ started running its regular

"cyber" column, which I suppose could be said to mark the entrance of the

word into the mainstream. On university campuses, however, the word is

quite old and well-worn. I was reading freshman papers on topics like

"cyber-life" in the '80s. This is one reason I argued against "cyber" at

the meeting. It may be true, however, that people outside of universities

or the computer industry haven't known the word long.



  1. what do we mean by new words? in terms of our contest, and in terms of

  the history of language, new words exist on a continuum--few words will

  become prominent enough at the moment of their origin to become WOTY. It

  takes time. You can't throw in a word in December and expect it to win the

  prize (like they do with the new movies).



This is what I pointed out on Words-L in response to the criticisms -- that

a word coined in a particular year is not likely to become prominent among

the masses until a bit later.



  2. what reactions do we want from our audience (here I'm writing like an

  old comp director, which is of course my other job)? I think the words-l

  responses are valid, in a way, and we need to write our press releases to

  avoid getting those kinds of negative reactions. But maybe what we need is



Keep in mind also that Words-L participants aren't a cross-section of the

population. Most of them have been hanging around cyberspace for a good

while.



  more than just a list, if the words are pre-known (on the analogy of

  pre-driven, previously viewed, and preborn), or so new as to be inscrutable

  (as the words in some of the other categories). So we can show word people

  words they are familiar with and give them a reason to feel that such words

  deserve the WOTY/POTY prize. And maybe, while we're at it, we should



Yes. Some kind of justification for choosing them.



  design a statuette (or at least a computer icon) to go with the prize.



Excellent idea. Are you volunteering to create the design? :-)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 19:04:38 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Thank you, Wayne, Becky and Sali for info on the Gullah Bible. With a

recommendation like that, I'm very interested in having our library

acquire it. I'd also like to know more about the Black Bible

Chronicles and the controversy/publicity on them, since whether

they're good texts or not I bet they're a fine tool for analyzing

language attitudes.

    Do any of you have more details for ordering? eg, editors' or

authors' names? year of publication? address of publisher or

distributor? it would be very welcome.

    It seems like this represents a new wave of Bible translation

into (post-)creole languages-- this time not by outside missionaries,

or not only (that goes back several centuries to Greenfield and the

Herrnhut manuscripts) but by the speakers, for their own use. I was

contacted last year about a project translating the Bible into Jamaican

Creole, though I have yet to see more than a few lines of it.

    Thanks again,

        --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 19:38:00 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: More Responses



Maybe our announcement of the WOTY contest/results ought to include

not only a list of previous winners, but a somewhat fuller statement

of how we see the contest and how it's evolved. For the popular press,

too, an analogy might not hurt. Just as Time's Man-of-the-Year award

is not generally given to people BORN in the year in question, so

neither is ours, unless they happen to thereby achieve sufficient

prominence right away! Newness is not the only kind of significance,

etc. If we nipped that in the bud a little more directly maybe the

WORDS-L readers would get it.

    [Is it still called MOTY? Shows you how long since I;'ve paid

attenbtion to Time-- and I truly feel better for it...]

    Now that we've saluted "morph" officially, we could even have

a MOTY of our own-- Morph(eme) of the Year...

    Btw (has "btw" ever received an award?), I liked the press

release (more than the winning choice). Thanks y'all....



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Jan 1995 to 10 Jan 1995

***********************************************







There are 19 messages totalling 457 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gullah Bible

 2. Brick reality and language in cyberspace (4)

 3. WOTY (2)

 4. Gullah bible publishing info (3)

 5. Brick reality and language i (3)

 6. More Responses

 7. mega-market

 8. Put Downs

 9. American Bible Society (Gullah bible)

 10. German WOTY

 11. Words of the Year



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Jan 1995 23:10:54 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Peter Patrick writes:

 

    It seems like this represents a new wave of Bible translation

into (post-)creole languages-- this time not by outside missionaries,

or not only (that goes back several centuries to Greenfield and the

Herrnhut manuscripts) but by the speakers, for their own use.

 

I think you have (un?)wittingly stumbled on what some indigenous peoples

are beginning to call post-colonial linguistics, which is their response

to centuries of what they call 'cognitive imperialism' (or 'terrorism').

What does knowledge look like when it is not in the service of a dominant

paradigm? These are the important issues that face modern scholars. How

complicit are we in maintaining paradigms that are prejudiced against the

teachings of indigenous people of the world, thus supporting this cognitive

imperialism -- what, because they aren't 'scientific' and 'logical', notions

only hundreds of years old, and are instead notions that are thousands of

years old? I've recently mentioned in three different anthropology conferences,

for instance, on hearing people talk about Native Americans praying to spirits

of animals, etc., and then hearing them use the word 'supernatural' in the

same breath group -- excuse me, that's what they call NATURAL, and we've

moved so far away from what they do that we've developed a new word, SUPER-

natural, to now describe that behavior (and being).



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:34:55 ZET

From:  Jon Grepstad  GREPSTAD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRAKRAD.NO 

Subject: Brick reality and language in cyberspace



I am writing an article for a Norwegian publication on "The

Norwegian Language in Cyberspace". Since the "global village" has a

certain impact on smaller language communities, like our two

Norwegian languages, the article will also have a few references to

American "cyberspeak".



The introduction of "e-mail" had given us "snail mail" as a

contrast in informal contexts. The other day I came across "brick

reality" more or less as a contrast to "virtual reality" or

"virtual communities": "... in Real Life aka 'brick reality'...".

The writer, however, was not a native American or British speaker.



(a) To what extent is this usage of "brick reality" an established

usage?



(b) Is the expression "brick reality" used outside of "cyberspace".



(c) Do you know of any studies of the American language on the Net?



I apologize that these questions may be somewhat outside the scope of

this list, and I apologize if the answers are too obvious to native

speakers.















































Jon Grepstad



Informasjonskonsulent/Information Officer

Norsk sprakrad/The Norwegian Language Council

Tlf/Tel (+ 47) 22 42 40 20 - Faks/Fax (+47) 22 42 76 76



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 04:51:40 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language in cyberspace



  (a) To what extent is this usage of "brick reality" an established

  usage?



I've never heard it, but I like it. I've usually heard something ordinary

like "physical reality" in contrast with "virtual reality." I do like seeing

the word "reality" there, btw. I find it inaccurate to contrast virtual life

with "real life" since I find virtual life quite real.



  I apologize that these questions may be somewhat outside the scope of

  this list, and I apologize if the answers are too obvious to native

  speakers.



I don't see them as outside of the scope of the list at all. Nor are the

answers obvious. (My answer to question 2 & 3 is "I don't know.")

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 06:52:25 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: WOTY



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 11-Jan-1995 06:49am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: WOTY





This may seem a simplistic answer to selecting the word of the year, but why not

invite online votes (or snail-mail) from those forms appearing in the "Among New

Words" column for the previous year? That way we avoid the

shoot-from-the-holster method currently used.

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

"between Appalachia and the Midwest"







Received: 11-Jan-1995 06:52am



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 07:08:50 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Gullah bible publishing info



I don't have it here in front of me to give you full info, but the Gullah

bible is published by the American Bible Society, which operates I think out of

New York. I should caution, though--only the Gospel of Luke is yet available.



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

Hamilton, New York 13346

Phone (315) 824-7315 (O); (315) 691-5116 (H)

FAX (315) 824-7121

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 08:54:03 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language in cyberspace



Your mention of "brick reality" is the first I've heard. It seems

parallel to another usage I am familiar with: skin meeting. There are now

electronic "meetings" of various 12-step groups (Alcoholics Anonymous, et.c)

on the net, and members of those groups sometimes refer to flesh-and-blood

meetinsgs as "skin meetings."



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:07:33 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language in cyberspace



 Your mention of "brick reality" is the first I've heard. It seems

 parallel to another usage I am familiar with: skin meeting. There are now

 electronic "meetings" of various 12-step groups (Alcoholics Anonymous, et.c)

 on the net, and members of those groups sometimes refer to flesh-and-blood

 meetinsgs as "skin meetings."

 

 Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



I can see the memo now: "There will be a organizational skin meeting of

college athletic supporters on May 15 at 8:00 P. M. in the gymnasium."



Forgive me. My eyes are blind; my head is numb; I spent the night tending

to an infant trying to become a toddler. How do parents of teenagers cope?







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:31:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language i



Skin meetings, snail mail, brick reality. Nice collection already a-gathering.

Looks like non-electronic forms are becoming the marked ones.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:20:03 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: More Responses



sing them.

 

   design a statuette (or at least a computer icon) to go with the prize.

 

 Excellent idea. Are you volunteering to create the design? :-)

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Actually, why not? When I was in grad school back before cybermorphing was

a popular sport, a group of us created the PaMeLA, an award for best title

of an article, book, or dissertation listed in the annual MLA bibliography.

 The winners for the one and only year we ran the contest were "Mr. Eliot,

He Dead" and "The Image of the Hopping Robin in the Early Poetry of Emily

Dickinson." The statuette I drew (didn't have the materials to actually do

a mold) showed a person in academic regalia carrying a metal garbage can.

At the base I inscribed the PAMELA motto, pace Othello, "Put out the

lights, and then put out the trash."



Now that I've got photoshop and painter, and am looking for a good graphics

tablet, the possibilities for design have become much more sophisticated.

All I have to do is learn the programs. What do you think, Allan? A

statuette (even a virtual one) could liven up the news release -- maybe we

could get on the 5 o'clock news like the doublespeak awards?



Dennis

--





Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 09:20:09 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: WOTY



Using the ANW list is a good start, but that list is selective and subject

to time delay (and the Barnhart Dictionary Companion is not always

available or up to date). Besides, we all have our little collections and

favorites. But certainly circulating the list of nominees in November by

email/publishing them in the newsletter for nonvirtuallycyberpunkedmorphers

would broaden the decision-making base. I imagine the goal is still to

have fun, right?



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:54:39 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Gullah bible publishing info



Yes, the American Bible Society is in New York. They've got a big

building on Broadway. If anyone needs the address, let me know and

I'll pull out the phone book.





Vicki Rosenzweig

Associate Editor, Computing Reviews

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

1-212-626-0666



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:51:23 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: mega-market



I guess I spoke too soon. The ad for the new Meijer store in today's

student newspaper informs us that "Meijer [is] the originator of the

mega-market."



Dennis



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 07:47:04 -1000

From:  Janet Swift  jswift[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU 

Subject: Re: Put Downs



Another for Jim Ague's list: "not quite sixteen ounces to the pound".



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:50:51 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: American Bible Society (Gullah bible)



As requested:



American Bible Society,

1865 Broadway

New York, NY (I think the zip is 10023)



212-408-1200





Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 12:56:11 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah bible publishing info



In Message Wed, 11 Jan 1995 10:54:39 EST,

 Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net  writes:



 Yes, the American Bible Society is in New York. They've got a big

 building on Broadway.



  The address as published in the book is: 1865 Broadway, New York, NY

10023. Sorry it took me a while to reply, Peter; I just came back from New

Orleans. I had to participate in the LSoRB meeting after the LSA. The book

is supposed to be very inexpensive. I bought my copy for $1 from one of the

translators, but I think it was a promotional price. In any case, it should

cost less than $10.oo.

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 13:22:42 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language i



  Skin meetings, snail mail, brick reality. Nice collection already a-gathering.



I tend to see "virtual reality" as of two different kinds, thus perhaps

needing two different contrasting terms. "Brick reality" is a better

opposite for the virtual reality that computer scientists work on -- the

kind like the tunnels in Crichton's _Disclosure_. The other kind of

virtual reality involves net life -- as opposed to ftf experiences.



  Looks like non-electronic forms are becoming the marked ones.



True. At least among net surfers.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 18:17:00 EST

From:  Brad Grissom  BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: German WOTY



Here's what the Society for German Language (GfdS) chose as its Word of

the Year:



  Superwahljahr   'super election year', in reference to the record

  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^   number of local, federal, EU votes



  2. place: Jackpot to celebrate the weeks-long Lottofieber ('lottery

       ^^^^^^^ fever') of the summer



  These are not explained, but I will ask someone tomorrow:



  3.   Unwort       literally, 'un-word'

  4.   Osterweiterung   'continued progress in the East' ?

  5.   Filosofie     obviously, a play on 'philosophy' and Filo (?)



                Source: Deutschland Nachrichten, 6. Jan. 95



Brad Grissom

bgrissom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 20:46:43 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Words of the Year



Natalie points to one of the two great difficulties in choosing (New) Words

of the year, namely, are they really new? This question has agitated our

neologurus Algeo (cf "Problems in New-Word Lexicography," Dictionaries 15

[1994]) and Barnhart (handout at the ADS new-words committee meeting last

month - hope he'll publish it), and it clouded our discussion at the annual

meeting to the point where someone (Larry Davis?) said it was threatening to

become serious.



But seriously, folks, I think our (N)WOTY exercise is becoming useful for us

as an in-your-face challenge to determine objective or reasonable criteria

for defining new words. The Algeos fall back on the simple NIMDD criteria

(=not in my desk dictionary) - if a word appears in one of their nine select

current dictionaries, it's not new. Is there any other way?



Oh, you wondered about the other great difficulty? That's the question of

deciding on reasonable categories for the WOTYs, and clear criteria for

choosing winners other than pure personal preference.



I think we can have serious consideration of these fundamental questions,

while still maintaining the levity of our selection sessions. But join us at

the Barclay in Chicago this December and help out! - AAllan



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Jan 1995 22:26:08 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language i



  Looks like non-electronic forms are becoming the marked ones.



 True. At least among net surfers.

 --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



And watch for yet another retronym from this factory: water surfing.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jan 1995 to 11 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 132 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. cyberspeak

 2. Brick reality and language i (2)

 3. Put Downs

 4. Gullah Bible



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Jan 1995 03:51:56 CST

From:  Susan Herring  susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTAFLL.UTA.EDU 

Subject: cyberspeak



'Brick reality' is a new one on me. In a collection I am editing on

computer-mediated communication, contributors generally refer to

IRL (in real life), and, in one case, 'meat space'. (The latter term

I think comes from cyberpunk literature.)



None of the papers in the collection deals specifically with cyberspeak,

but the bibliography contains nearly 200 references on computer-mediated

communication. If you contact me privately, Jon, I'd be happy to e-mail

you the bibliography.



Susan Herring

susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:48:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language i



Retronym. A new category? In-group word of the year.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

P.S.: How about reduplicative retronyms (E.g., It's not an air conditioner air

conditioner)?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Jan 1995 11:46:10 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHN-WHORFIN.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Put Downs



Seemed a propos: a self-proclaimed canonical list of such putdowns

was recently posted to the rec.humor Usenet newsgroup. I won't give

the whole thing (I didn't read it, why should you want to? :-), but

here is the intro from his post:





: The following is posted monthly. I do not keep up with this newsgroup,

: so send me mail if you have contributions or corrections. Please send

: me only net changes you desire, not enormous dumps of largely redundant

: material to wade through. You can also (allegedly) ftp this and other

: lists from 128.2.95.103, which is a DOS system (use "dir" not "ls").

: Also check this URL: http://www.misty.com/laughweb.

:

: Email requests for copies of this file will be cheerfully ignored.

: If you are reading this, you have a copy in front of you...

:

:

:    CANONICAL LIST OF FULLDECKISMS

:

:

:    Maintained by Alan Silverstein, ajs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fc.hp.com

:    Last update: 941219

:    Total entries:  819

:

:    A compendium of insults and "not all there" comments from

:    various sources, beginning with rec.humor, April 1987.

:

:    Criteria: Humorousness; uniqueness of essence (minimize

:    redundancy); brevity; consistency; avoid gender bias, ethnic

:    slurs, and other really offensive material; keep in sorted

:    order with correct spelling and grammar.



(I'm rather taken with the name "fulldeckism".)



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Jan 1995 18:31:53 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Dan,

    thanks for your comments relating the (recent?) publishing of

bible translations into vernacular and esp. pidgin/creole languages BY

native speakers of them, for their own ends. I hadn't thought of them

in that light (though I have heard of "postcolonial lx" before).

    However, I'm not sure the "lx" part of the label applies here.

Apart from the Gullah Bible, which Sali comments seems to be pretty

authentic, one of the striking things about the Jamaican and what I've

heard about the Black Bible Chronicles is how they differ from the

vernacular speech that speakers speak and linguists know. I get the

feeling that even though these folks are in some sense validating the

variety by publishing important stuff in it, they're still very

reluctant to see it as linguists do, and very prone to dress it up or

Anglicize/standardize it-- while celebrating its "difference"!

    This ambivalence is a very familiar, and very understandable,

attitude in a post-colonial society, but it also reveals the very

same confusion of social values with linguistic structure, the

acceptance of a non-arbitrary (even "natural") relationship between

them, that members of dominant groups show-- and which is perhaps

the main target of sociolinguistics. So though the translators of

these efforts are doing something good, and progressive, I think

there's still an essential point they're missing, which only linguists

seem to be teaching.

    --peter



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Jan 1995 21:22:15 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Brick reality and language i



Actually when I cover retronyms in my Words and Meaning class, I always do

include a discussion of doubles as well (e.g. a "wood wood" in golf, "cheese

cheese" as opposed to mock, etc.). The term retronym (for such early examples

as "analog watch" and "acoustic guitar", although one of my favorites has

always been "biological mother", not to mention "true freshman", for you

football fans out there) was one that I first came across in Bill Safire's

columns, and he credits Frank Mankiewicz. Doubles are discussed extensively

in work by Nancy Dray, a graduate student who's working on a dissertation

analyzing her collection of them. I recommend the gathering of both retronyms

and doubles as a particularly fruitful exercise for undergraduates. Doubles

here include not only the retronymic varieties like those above, but the full

range--the salad salads, the dog dogs, the beer beer (as in the recent Coors

commercial, and the mind-altering minimal pair [from Dray]

  We're just LIVING together living together.

  Oh, we're not LIVING together living together.

--which of course refer to exactly the same (purported) state of affairs.



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jan 1995 to 12 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 159 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Final Call: Symposium on Language Loss & Public Policy

 2. Gullah Bible

 3. WOTY



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Jan 1995 08:29:08 -0700

From:  "Garland D. Bills"  gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU 

Subject: Final Call: Symposium on Language Loss & Public Policy



           FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS



     Symposium on Language Loss and Public Policy



        To be held in conjunction with the

 1995 Linguistic Institute of the Linguistic Society of America

          University of New Mexico

         Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA



           June 30-July 2, 1995



The Symposium organizers are pleased to report that there has

been a very strong response to the initial request for

expressions of interest in presenting papers. Consequently, the

Symposium will definitely be held as scheduled in spite of the

lack of funds to provide travel assistance. Interested persons

who were unable to respond earlier are encouraged to meet the

January 31, 1995, deadline for receipt of abstracts.



As announced previously, the Symposium on Language Loss and

Public Policy will bring together scholars from different

disciplines to discuss the linguistic, psycholinguistic,

sociolinguistic, cultural, and policy aspects of language loss.

LANGUAGE LOSS is used here in its broadest sense to subsume three

areas of investigation:



  (1) the ATTRITION of native language skills by

    individual members of indigenous and immigrant

    communities;

  (2) societal SHIFT from the use of the native ethnic

    language to the use of a dominant official

    language; and

  (3) the consequent DEATH of the subordinate language.



There are clear interrelationships among these three areas in the

societal conditions that give rise to loss, in the linguistic

processes involved in loss, in the consequences of loss for

individuals and societies, and in the implications for policy

intervention. The intent of the Symposium is to have the

presenters explore these interrelationships with each other and

with other participants in the 1995 Linguistic Institute.



The Symposium has two central objectives. The first is to share

the accumulated knowledge in the three areas of language loss in

order to arrive at a more global understanding of the phenomenon.

What are the underlying social and sociopsychological forces that

contribute to attrition, shift, and death? What are the

relationships among the linguistic processes in loss? What

aspects of social causes and linguistic processes appear to be

universal and what aspects are language particular?



The second central objective is to examine the ecological

consequences of language loss and cultural disruption. What are

the effects on individuals, communities, and society as a whole?

What are the policy implications of this worldwide and rapidly

accelerating phenomenon? What kinds of information and resources

can be provided to members of the wider community and those

concerned with questions of policy?



**The deadline for receipt of abstracts is January 31, 1995.**

Abstracts should not exceed 500 words. The abstract itself must

have a title. Include with the abstract -- and separated from it

by at least three lines -- your full name, mailing address,

telephone number(s), e-mail address, and the paper title.

Abstracts may be submitted by regular mail, FAX, or electronic

mail.



Selection of papers will be made by anonymous review of

abstracts. Submitters will be advised of the acceptance of their

abstracts by February 28, 1995.



In order to make papers available to other participants in

advance of the Symposium, presenters will be asked to submit pre-

publication versions of their papers by May 15, 1995. Publication

of the proceedings is planned. Publishable versions of the papers

will be due at the Symposium.



Abstracts and requests for additional information should be

directed to:



Garland D. Bills

Department of Linguistics   Telephone: (505) 277-7416 or -0324

University of New Mexico   FAX: (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196  E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

USA



Symposium Organizing Committee:

   Garland D. Bills

   Eduardo Herna'ndez Cha'vez

   Alan Hudson



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Jan 1995 09:30:05 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



In Message Thu, 12 Jan 1995 18:31:53 -0500,

 "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK%GUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu  writes:



  one of the striking things about the Jamaican and what I've

 heard about the Black Bible Chronicles is how they differ from the

 vernacular speech that speakers speak and linguists know. I get the

 feeling that even though these folks are in some sense validating the

 variety by publishing important stuff in it, they're still very

 reluctant to see it as linguists do, and very prone to dress it up or

 Anglicize/standardize it-- while celebrating its "difference"!



 Well said, Peter.



     This ambivalence is a very familiar, and very understandable,

 attitude in a post-colonial society, but it also reveals the very

 same confusion of social values with linguistic structure, the

 acceptance of a non-arbitrary (even "natural") relationship between

 them, that members of dominant groups show-- and which is perhaps

 the main target of sociolinguistics. So though the translators of

 these efforts are doing something good, and progressive, I think

 there's still an essential point they're missing, which only linguists

 seem to be teaching.



  Cool!



Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Jan 1995 19:20:53 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: WOTY



FYI, cyberADSers, nominations for WOTY begin with two lists of a couple dozen

words each, one from the Algeos, one from David Barnhart: words they are

noting for possible *future* issues. So we get a *preview* of ANW and BDC.

 Like good academics, they have their lists ready at the last possible

moment; and anyhow, like good scholars, they wait till the year is nearly

over to look back at the words of the whole year.

 I think we could arrange to get those lists in cyberspace a few days in

advance of our nominating committee meeting (open to all, Dec. 28) and vote

(Dec 29).

 That will be progress, but believe me, it won't solve the fundamental

problems.

- AAllan



PS. Thanks, Dennis B. - A statuette would be a helpful antidote to an

overdose of seriousness. Shall we call it a "Noah" after Webster?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Jan 1995 to 13 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 119 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 2 pl. (3)

 2. Gullah Bible

 3. WOTY



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Jan 1995 15:48:36 +0000

From:  Aaron Drews  9475245[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARRAN.SMS.ED.AC.UK 

Subject: 2 pl.



Hey all!

                    Last year around this time, there was a rather long thread about

"Y'all" and how in some parts of the US it is the 2pl. pronoun. Around

this neck of the woods (ie Edinburgh), I have heard, "yous", even by

educated speakers. I don't see why the standard plural couldn't be

added to the dingular pronoun and fill in the gap we lost a couple

centuries ago (?).

                I haven't heard "yous" in formal usage, or, if I remember correctly,

in simple, active declaritive sentences. I have heard it in questions,

like "How are yous?" or "Can I get yous anything?". Perhaps it's the

brogue, but it certainly doesn't sound like the stereotypical,

blue-collar Chicago Bears fan.

                    I'm just wondering if anybody else has heard this in other parts of

the English-speaking world. If so, where, in what context, etc.?



--Aaron Drews



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Jan 1995 12:15:03 -0500

From:  Abigail Sarah Margulies  asm16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Aaron Drews wrote:



  I haven't heard "yous" in formal usage, or, if I remember correctly,

  in simple, active declaritive sentences. I have heard it in questions,

  like "How are yous?" or "Can I get yous anything?". Perhaps it's the

  brogue, but it certainly doesn't sound like the stereotypical,

  blue-collar Chicago Bears fan.

  I'm just wondering if anybody else has heard this in other parts of

  the English-speaking world. If so, where, in what context, etc.?



Where I grew up, in Central Upstate New York, it wasn't unusual to

hear "yous." I remember hearing it in questions, like the ones Drews

mentioned, but also in declarative sentences like "Yous all better

stop doing that" or "We thought we'd do this 'til yous got here." I still

hear it used when I visit my parents' home.



Abbie



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Jan 1995 13:00:16 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



"Yous" in quite common in Buffalo, NY (here spelled "youze") among people with

Irish and Polish but not Italian ancestry (our three major ethic groups).

I read somewhere yous is carryover from Irish Gaelic second person plural

pronoun that was picked up by some, although not all, who were learning

English at the same time and heard the "example."

Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Jan 1995 13:07:18 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gullah Bible



Peter Patrick writes: "I get the

feeling that even though these folks are in some sense validating the

variety by publishing important stuff in it, they're still very

reluctant to see it as linguists do, and very prone to dress it up or

Anglicize/standardize it-- while celebrating its "difference"!

    This ambivalence is a very familiar, and very understandable,

attitude in a post-colonial society, but it also reveals the very

same confusion of social values with linguistic structure..."



I totally agree. Coming myself from hillbillies from Arkansas that moved to

LA during the Dustbowl years, growing up in my early years in a church full

of Arkies and Okies, going thru sixth grade in a private Christian school

filled with the children of those church people -- I want to tell you, it was

a real shock in those early TV days to go to junior high and find out that

my way of speaking was not acceptable (especially when I wrote it!), and that

there was a Standard English that I wasn't really familiar with. Was I

embarrased? Yes. Was I ashamed of my parents and all those church people

for the way they talked? You bet -- because that was all about a way I had

to train OUT OF in order to feel accepted. And since linguistics is

essentially an upper-division and graduate enterprise, it seems it's with

good reason lots of people haven't 'gotten the message' of linguistics yet,

and still confuse social values with linguistic structure. Lots of people

just never really understand that 'standard' doesn't mean 'mandatory.'



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Jan 1995 20:25:53 -0600

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY



or we could call it a sammy after dr. j.

or a natty after nate bailey

or a random

(randy)

(hey, maybe we should call it a randy after random house and get them to

be our corporate sponsor? rh, are you out there?)

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jan 1995 to 14 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 3 messages totalling 48 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. WOTY (2)

 2. Doubles and triples



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 Jan 1995 10:01:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: WOTY



Ah, what different worlds we live in. It took me a long time to figure out why

anybody would want to call something named after Dr. J (Julius Erving, I

naturally presumed) a 'Sammy.'

Dennis R. (Finally-Got-It-In-Michigan) Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 Jan 1995 14:09:23 -0500

From:  Jesse Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: WOTY



 (hey, maybe we should call it a randy after random house and get them to

 be our corporate sponsor? rh, are you out there?)



Hmm? What? Oh.



Well, some of us are out here. Unfortunately, those of us with the guts to

suggest to the higher-ups that we sponsor the ADS are probably nowhere to

be found. Sorry :-(.





---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jesse T Sheidlower    Editor     Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com            (212) 572-4917

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Multa renascentur quae iam cecidere, cadentque

Quae nunc sunt in honore vocabula, si volet usus,

Quem penes arbitrium est et ius et norma loquendi.--Horace, AP 70ff.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 Jan 1995 23:01:15 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Doubles and triples



My wife Donna just caught an AT&T commercial that spoke of making calls to

"anybody anybody," i.e. really *anybody*.

 Larry and others have cited lots of doubles. Are there any instances of

authentic triples? (I won't venture to hope for a home run.)

- AAllan



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jan 1995 to 15 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 65 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Doubles and triples -Reply

 2. Doubles and triples

 3. 2 pl.

 4. bitnet address problem



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Jan 1995 09:34:37 -0600

From:  Richard Swerdlin  Swerdlin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WP.UNT.EDU 

Subject: Doubles and triples -Reply



The mere sight of "AT&T" on the screen reminds me of the sickening

single "your true voice"! I cannot recall such continuing

advertising crap as that one.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Jan 1995 11:07:34 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Doubles and triples



Funny, I caught that same commercial (Anybody anybody? Or just certain any-

bodies?) for AT&T last night. I think triples--at least the ones I've

collected--represent a different phenomenon. While the first element of the

double serves as a modifier, triples are used to indicate that no other members

of an implied category are worth worrying about:

 Location, location, location.  (The most important factors in determining

                  success of an enterprise.)

 Service, service, service.   (The factors in success of a politician.)



    Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Jan 1995 15:56:29 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Ron Rabin wrote:



  "Yous" in quite common in Buffalo, NY (here spelled "youze") among people with

  Irish and Polish but not Italian ancestry (our three major ethic groups).

  I read somewhere yous is carryover from Irish Gaelic second person plural

  pronoun that was picked up by some, although not all, who were learning

  English at the same time and heard the "example."

  Ron Rabin

  Buffalo State College

 

"Youse" is stereotypical "Brooklynese" and also stereotypically Australian.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Jan 1995 20:15:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: bitnet address problem



If anyone has tried to contact me since the beginning of January,

I did not receive your message. Our "upgrade" had a few side effects.



Things seem to be in order now, though. My addresses are:

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfwcvax.bitnet

or

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



thanks,



beth simon



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jan 1995 to 16 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 15 messages totalling 257 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. bitnet problems

 2. Doubles and triples

 3. 2 pl. (3)

 4. Animals and Energy (10)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 06:29:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: bitnet problems



From:  WIRCS2::BLSIMON   "Beth Lee Simon"

To:   IN%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.bitnet",BLSIMON

Subject: bitnet address problem



If anyone has tried to contact me since the beginning of January,

I did not receive your message. Our "upgrade" had a few side effects.



Things seem to be in order now, though. My addresses are:

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfwcvax.bitnet

or

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



thanks,



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 08:12:57 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Doubles and triples



Don't forget: Jobs, jobs, jobs. (political slogan)

Allen





On Mon, 16 Jan 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  Funny, I caught that same commercial (Anybody anybody? Or just certain any-

  bodies?) for AT&T last night. I think triples--at least the ones I've

  collected--represent a different phenomenon. While the first element of the

  double serves as a modifier, triples are used to indicate that no other members

  of an implied category are worth worrying about:

   Location, location, location.  (The most important factors in determining

                    success of an enterprise.)

   Service, service, service.   (The factors in success of a politician.)

 

     Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 11:07:17 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Martinez  MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



  On Sat, 14 Jan 1995, Aaron Drews wrote:



    I haven't heard "yous" in formal usage, or, if I remember correctly,

    in simple, active declaritive sentences. I have heard it in questions,

    like "How are yous?" or "Can I get yous anything?". Perhaps it's the

    brogue, but it certainly doesn't sound like the stereotypical,

    blue-collar Chicago Bears fan.

    I'm just wondering if anybody else has heard this in other parts of

    the English-speaking world. If so, where, in what context, etc.?



  Where I grew up, in Central Upstate New York, it wasn't unusual to

  hear "yous." I remember hearing it in questions, like the ones Drews

  mentioned, but also in declarative sentences like "Yous all better

  stop doing that" or "We thought we'd do this 'til yous got here." I still

  hear it used when I visit my parents' home.



  Abbie

I, too, grew up in NY (Queens) and have heard and used "yous" as the plural

of "you". I remember hearing and saying "Yous guys better cut it out" or

"yous better be there" or "I'm not going with yous", etc. It was pretty

common on the streets (not in school!).



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 10:36:52 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



"Youse" is also very common in South Philadelphia, where many

Italian-Americans live.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 11:23:49 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Animals and Energy



I just came across something that struck me as strange in Chaika's

_Language: The Social Mirror_ : "... the word _energy_ in English

refers to a human being's physical or mental energy or electrical or

fossil fuel power, but it doesn't refer to animals. That is, it seems

odd for me to say, 'My new puppy has a lot of energy.'" (page 14)



I find nothing at all odd about "My new puppy has a lot of energy."

It strikes me as a perfectly normal statement. Am I the odd one, or

is Chaika?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 13:21:02 -0500

From:  Bill Cole - 919-248-6118  cole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DG-RTP.DG.COM 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



It seems to me that we've always used 'energy' when referring to animals.

Many descriptions of breeds carry 'energetic' or 'very energetic' (except

when describing St. Bernards, of course).



In another vein, much of the world is powered by animal energy. Oxen pull

plows in much of Africa and parts of Europe and South America. Even in

America we use horses for power on some farms.



/Bill Cole     : To do right, love justice and walk humbly.

(919)248-6118

Data General Corp.

Enterprise Application Customer Support Center

RTP, NC

The opinions are my own, thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 13:27:29 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



Chaika odd (or off), Maynor right. My cat has so much energy I had

to get rid of him.



And doesnt the word originally (I'm thinking of St Paul's Greek) refer

rather specifically to the animal power? (Carnal mind, not the soul?)



RK

,



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 13:48:05 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



I agree with Natalie. Sounds like Chaika is trying too hard to find a

trace of an animacy/humanness distinction in this English usage.

    But "energy" comes from a neutral source, I think, on the

question of humanness: Gr. ergon "work", energeia "active, effective"

seems to apply equally well to animals or humans, and certainly

predates Paul. "Animal" is from anemos "wind" --  anima "air, breath

(of life)", therefore "soul", and also --  animus "spirit". I believe

all living things were supposed to have it, at any rate before the

Christians got into the act and loused things up for non-humans.

    This beats finishing my lecture schedule for Language and

Social Life, I can tell you...



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 14:20:01 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



I think Chaika is the odd one--I certainly would say "my cat

has a lot of energy" (she does, too). What is Chaika's native

language?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 14:10:47 -0600

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



My cats have LOTS of energy.



Lew





Lew Sanborne

St. Ambrose University

Davenport, IA 52803

319 324-8266



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 19:53:05 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



I have had several animals with lots of energy -- and even some energetic

ones.



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 20:06:24 -0500

From:  Claudio Salvucci  CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



My relatives from South Philadelphia use "youse" frequently, to add

a little support to Ellen Polsky's observation. It's quite common

in phrases such as "See yous later." and seems to occur (albeit

less often) out here in the suburbs.



Claudio R. Salvucci

csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 22:05:27 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



Natalie writes:

 I just came across something that struck me as strange in Chaika's

 _Language: The Social Mirror_ : "... the word _energy_ in English

 refers to a human being's physical or mental energy or electrical or

 fossil fuel power, but it doesn't refer to animals. That is, it seems

 odd for me to say, 'My new puppy has a lot of energy.'" (page 14)





 I find nothing at all odd about "My new puppy has a lot of energy."

 It strikes me as a perfectly normal statement. Am I the odd one, or

 is Chaika?



Chaika probably ought to be more careful about which pet store he buys his

puppies from. Maybe it just needs to be wormed. Or dewormed.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 21:42:42 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



 Chaika  what is her native language.



She has spent I believe all her life in Rhode Island.

Her family is Russian Jewish.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 1995 23:11:33 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



Chaika is a woman.



bhhudson



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jan 1995 to 17 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 264 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Animals and Energy (5)

 2. 2 pl (4)

 3. A Test of My New Return Address

 4. i'm asking for a favor (2)

 5. Beth's Bitnet Address



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 00:06:52 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



So [that Chaika is a woman] I now realize. Sorry. I think I was guilty of

the sexist assumption that anyone who would claim that animals (especially

puppies) are a priori devoid of energy MUST be a man. Go know.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 04:49:38 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



I'm enjoying using Chaika's book, btw, in spite of the strange ideas about

dogs. I changed to it this year after having used Wardhaugh the only other

times I've taught Sociolinguistics. Wardhaugh put the students to sleep.

Chaika wakes them up. I consider that important.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 18:00:26 +0100

From:  "E.W. Schneider"  Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE 

Subject: 2 pl



I`m not really surprised about the *yous(e)* uses - they`re all

pretty well documented in Linguistic Atlas materials, as far as I

know (right, Bill?).

What strikes me as more exciting about this topic is another form,

and perhaps yous native-speaking folks out there have intuitions

about this: What about *you guys*? To my mind, and on the basis of my

admittedly limited experience, this seems to be developing into a

distinct second plural form outside the y`all (and perhaps

youse/you`uns/etc.) area. Isn`t it true that a waitress in most

non-southern parts of the country would address a group of patrons by

saying "What do you guys want?" rather than a plain "What do you

want?" There appears to be a strong functional pressure towards

reestablishing the formal number distinction in the second plural

which English gave up sometime in the sixteenth century (see under *thou*,

in any good history of the language). Southern substratum

in Chicago?

Regards, Edgar



Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de

University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:18:37 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



On Tue, 17 Jan 1995 14:20, Vicki Rosenzweig writes:



  I think Chaika is the odd one--I certainly would say "my cat

  has a lot of energy" (she does, too). What is Chaika's native

  language?



Chaika's native language is probably not such a large factor.

The telling question is probably: Does she have (m)any pets?



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:02:05 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



  Chaika's native language is probably not such a large factor.

  The telling question is probably: Does she have (m)any pets?



Very lethargic ones...

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 14:40:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: 2 pl



You guys (informal, gender unspecific) is well-established here in southern

lower Michigan. It is, I suspect, not related to any Southern substratum,

however, since the primary users are young, female, lower to upper middle

class, majority group with no southern backgrounds (as in some

European-American groups in Michigan).

Edgar's suspicion that a server in a restaurant might refer to patrons this

way is correct, but it would be very much dependent on the poshness of the

place (where it would be out of line in any place with any pretension

whatsoever). Moreover, I think there would have to be some social solidarity

among speakers (even server - patrons) before it would be used. A young server

(even in a casual place) would not use you guys on older patrons.

I also do not know the limits of southern Michigan all set, particularly

useful in service encounters. After you have read a menu, a server will ask

all set (are you ready to order). After your food comes, he or she will again

enquire all set (do you have what you want), after you have stuffed yourself,

another all set means can the plates be taken away now; a later all set means,

of course, should I bring the bill. It is easy to see how this was extended

from the older all set (the one I use), which means something like is a

groupnow ready to engage in some sort of activity or take some sort of action,

but I found it odd (and hard to explain the oddness of to local users, who, of

course, could not imagine that one would say anything else in the

circumstances.

This all set, by the way, is not casual (like you guys). I have heard it in

the poshest places (when I have been taken there, rarely, of course, and never

more than once so my testimony on this aspect may be questionable. Those who

know Lansing will, on the other hand, know that posh restaurant is

oxymoronic.)

Anybody else out there struck by this all set?

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:29:41 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: A Test of My New Return Address



Please trash this posting. I'm having trouble with listserves and my

return address and need to check my connection here. Sorry.



Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 12:29:03 -0800

From:  Scott Schwenter  schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I think the all set isogloss extends quite a ways north, since it is

definitely the all-purpose norm in my hometown of Traverse City (northwest

lower Michigan). I myself was a heavy all set user while bussing and

waiting tables there for several summers. I haven't noticed it here in CA

at all.



Scott



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:39:39 -0500

From:  Bill Cole - 919-248-6118  cole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DG-RTP.DG.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  You guys (informal, gender unspecific) is well-established here in southern

  lower Michigan. It is, I suspect, not related to any Southern substratum,

  however, since the primary users are young, female, lower to upper middle

  class, majority group with no southern backgrounds (as in some

  European-American groups in Michigan).



No native Southerner would use "you guys" unless his/her parents were

unreconstructed Yankees.



  Edgar's suspicion that a server in a restaurant might refer to patrons this

  way is correct, but it would be very much dependent on the poshness of the

  place (where it would be out of line in any place with any pretension

  whatsoever). Moreover, I think there would have to be some social solidarity

  among speakers (even server - patrons) before it would be used. A young server

  (even in a casual place) would not use you guys on older patrons.

  I also do not know the limits of southern Michigan all set, particularly

  useful in service encounters. After you have read a menu, a server will ask

  all set (are you ready to order). After your food comes, he or she will again

  enquire all set (do you have what you want), after you have stuffed yourself,

  another all set means can the plates be taken away now; a later all set means,

  of course, should I bring the bill. It is easy to see how this was extended

  from the older all set (the one I use), which means something like is a

  groupnow ready to engage in some sort of activity or take some sort of action,

  but I found it odd (and hard to explain the oddness of to local users, who, of

  course, could not imagine that one would say anything else in the

  circumstances.

  This all set, by the way, is not casual (like you guys). I have heard it in

  the poshest places (when I have been taken there, rarely, of course, and never

  more than once so my testimony on this aspect may be questionable. Those who

  know Lansing will, on the other hand, know that posh restaurant is

  oxymoronic.)

  Anybody else out there struck by this all set?



Yes, "all set" seems to be all purpose. Sort of a social convention. But it

seems to peculiar to restaurants. Maybe I don't get out enough.



/Bill Cole     : To do right, love justice and walk humbly.

(919)248-6118

Data General Corp.

Enterprise Application Customer Support Center

RTP, NC

The opinions are my own, thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 15:02:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: i'm asking for a favor



Would someone please send me a message, junk, whatever, by using

the following address:



simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfwcvax.bitnet





thanks,

beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 16:22:46 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Beth's Bitnet Address



Dear Beth Simon (with apologies to the list),



    Our daemon mailer says you are an unknown host.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 18:32:08 EST

From:  PS Kuhlman  GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: i'm asking for a favor



Here's your favor; you now probably have hundreds such messages and

are regretting your request.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 23:46:32 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



Having followed seemingly the Whorfian theory/hypothesis thread

about Eskimos and snow on Linguist of late, I must suggest that those

responding to the cited passages in Chaikra's Language: The Social

Mirror have missed her point, having taken the passage out of context.

In the context of English, animals don't have _energy_, because the term

in this use subsumes a set of features that have to do with

volition and intention, semantic attributes that I am not willing to

attribute to cats and dogs until they are willing to replace the Newt in

charge.



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jan 1995 to 18 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 541 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Animals and Energy

 2. 2 pl (2)

 3. messages to beth

 4. Books & Students

 5. GLS 1995 Schedule (updated 1/19/95)

 6. You guys (2)

 7. Another Test--Sorry

 8. WOTY 95 candidate: Astroturf



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 00:18:48 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Animals and Energy



I've used Chaika's book also, but I find some of her statements about BEV very

simplistic. I wonder if anyone else has found this a problem?



BHHudson



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 06:46:17 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



I certainly concur with Edgar Schneider's observation that "you guys" is

ubiquitous in the north; "youse" is heavily stigmatized but "you guys" brings no

opprobrium with it--the stealth 2 pl. pronoun as it were.

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 07:05:33 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: messages to beth



Thanks message senders.



I apologize for taking your time and (X)space. The ADS-L list mail

doesn't come in, but your individual messages do.



Beth



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 06:48:44 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Books & Students



On Wed, 18 Jan 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  I'm enjoying using Chaika's book, btw, in spite of the strange ideas about

  dogs. I changed to it this year after having used Wardhaugh the only other

  times I've taught Sociolinguistics. Wardhaugh put the students to sleep.

  Chaika wakes them up. I consider that important.



Yes, Chaika's text does wake them up, and its about the only one

I'vefound that does not put them to sleep. I especially like the

exercises after each chapter. I made my students do one for each ch. and

write them up.



I do find other places where the details are not always accurate,

although they've been improved in succesive editions. Some ofthe stuff

on VBE is dated (we've been over that on this net); some of the stuff on

language and gender may be as well.



The structure of some chapters is a bit rambling.

But students still like it better than other stuff.

Most textbooks have a hard time, it seems, addresseing laypeople and not

professional linguists.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 10:53:11 -0500

From:  Shari Kendall  KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: GLS 1995 Schedule (updated 1/19/95)



updated 1/19/95 (includes session times)





               **********

        The Georgetown Linguistics Society

               presents



      GLS 1995: DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS







            February 17-19, 1995

        Georgetown University, Washington D.C.



               **********





            **CONFERENCE SCHEDULE**





            *FRIDAY, February 17*



2:00 - 3:30



Colloquium: Developments in Signed Language Discourse Part I

 (Coordinator: Melanie Metzger)

*Ruth Morgan

 The interplay of place and space in a Namibian Sign Language narrative

*Kathleen Wood

 Negotiating literate identities: Life stories of deaf students

*Susan M. Mather

 Adult-deaf toddler discourse



Will the Real Author Please Stand Up?: Exploiting the Speech of Others

*Richard Buttny

 Talking race on campus: Reported speech in accounts of race relations

 at a university campus

*Akira Satoh

 Reported speech in English and Japanese: A comparative analysis

*Joyce Tolliver

 Evidentiality and accountability in literary narrative



3:45 - 5:15



Colloquium: Developments in Signed Language Discourse Part II

 (Coordinator: Melanie Metzger)

*Tina M. Neumann

 Figurative language in an American Sign Language poem: Personification and

 prosopopoeia

*Scott Liddell and Melanie Metzger

 Spatial mapping in an ASL Narrative: Examining the use of multiple surrogate

 spaces

*Elizabeth A. Winston

 Spatial mapping in comparative discourse frames in American Sign Language



Political, Intellectual, Institutional Identities

*Anna De Fina

 Pronominal choice, identity and solidarity in political discourse

*Charlotte Linde

 Other people's stories: Third person narrative in individual and group

 identity

*Karen Tracy

 The identity work of questioning in intellectual discussion



Prior Discourses and the Structure of Classroom Interaction

*Mary Buchinger Bodwell

 "Now what does that mean, 'first draft'?": Adult literacy classes and

 alternative models of editing a text

*Deborah Poole

 The effects of text on talk in a class-room literacy event

*Myriam Torres

 Why teachers do not engage in co-construction of knowledge: A critical

 discourse analysis



5:30 - 6:30



Plenary Speaker: ROGER SHUY



6:45 - 7:45



Plenary Speaker: DEBORAH SCHIFFRIN



8:00 - 11:00



Reception





            *SATURDAY, February 18*



9:30 - 10:30



Plenary Speaker: HEIDI HAMILTON



10:45 - 12:45



Colloquium: Developments in Conversation Analysis: Oh, What, Or, Pardon

 (Coordinator: Maria Egbert)

*Paul Drew

 'What'?: A sequential basis for an 'open' form of repair initiation in

 conversation (and some implications for cognitive approaches to interaction)

*Maria Egbert

 The relevance of interactants' eye gaze to the organization of

 other-initiated repair: The case of German 'bitte?' ('pardon?')

*Anna Lindstrom

 'Or'-constructed inquiries as a resource for probing the relevance of prior

 talk in Swedish conversation

*John Heritage

 'Oh'-prefaced responses to inquiry



Privileged Views in Media Discourse

*Gertraud Benke

 News about news: Textual features of news agency copies and their usage in the

 newsproduction

*Debra Graham

 Racism in the reporting of the O.J. Simpson arrest: A critical discourse

 analysis approach

*Ian Hutchby

 Arguments and asymmetries on talk radio

*Joanna Thornborrow

 Talk shows and democratic discourse



Interactional Explanations for Patterns of Variation

*Scott Fabius Kiesling

 Using interactional discourse analysis to explain variation

*Sylvie Dubois

 The coherent network of effects on discourse



Humorous Faces

*Nancy K. Baym

 Humorous performance in a computer-mediated group

*Diana Boxer and Florencia Cortes-Conde

 Teasing that bonds: Conversational joking and identity display



12:45 - 2:45



Theme lunch



2:45 - 4:45



Negotiating Authority and Status

*Cynthia Dickel Dunn

 The language of the tea teacher: Shifting indexical ground in a Japanese

 pedagogical context

*Lena Gavruseva

 'What is this drivel about garages?': The construction of authoritative

 self in the cover letter discourse

*Geoffrey Raymond

 The voice of authority: Sequence and turn design in live news broadcasts

*Hideko Nornes Abe

 Discourse analysis on distal and direct styles of Japanese women's speech



Narrative Structures across Languages

*Viola G. Miglio

 Tense alternations in medieval prose texts

*Asli Ozyurek

 How children use connectives to talk about a conversation

*Marybeth Culley

 Rhetorical elaborations of a Chiricahua Apache comic narrative genre

*Bethany K. Dumas

 Complex narratives in Ozark discourse



Competing Discourses and Dominance

*Tony Hak

 'She has clear delusions': The production of a factual account

*Catherine F. Smith

 Democratic discourses

*John Clark

 Standard and vernacular: Persuasive discourse styles in conflict

*Kathryn Remlinger

 Keeping it straight: The socio-linguistic construction of a heterosexual

 ideology in a campus community



5:00 - 7:00



Colloquium: Discourse and Conflict

 (Coordinator: Christina Kakava)

*Faye C. McNair-Knox

 Discourse and conflict in African-American English womantalk: Patterns of

 grammaticalized disapproval in narratives

*Christina Kakava

 Evaluation in personal and vicarious stories: Mirror of a Greek man's self

*Patricia E. O'Connor

 'You can't keep a man down': Positioning in conflict talk and in violent acts

*Laine Berman

 Life stories from the streets: Homeless children's narratives of violence

 and the construction of a better world



Discourse Influences on Syntactic Categories and Structures

*Jennifer Arnold

 The interaction between discourse focus and verbal form in Mapudungun

*Rajesh Bhatt

 Information status and word order in Hindi

*Paul Hopper

 Discourse and the category 'verb' in English



Interactional Construction of Cognitive Understanding

*Pamela W. Jordan and Megan Moser

 Multi-level coordination in computer-mediated conversation

*Claudia Roncarati

 Repetition and cognition in the information flow: A case-study in Brazilian

 Portuguese database

*Andrea Tyler and John Bro

 Examining perceptions of text comprehensibility: The effect of order and

 contextualization cues



7:15 - 8:15



Plenary Speaker: CHARLES GOODWIN





            *SUNDAY, February 19*



9:30 - 10:30



Plenary Speaker: FREDERICK ERICKSON



10:45 - 12:45



Colloquium: Frames Theory and Discourse

 (Coordinator: Janice Hornyak)

*Janice Hornyak

 Personal and professional frames in office discourse

*Susan Hoyle

 Negotiation of footing in play

*Carolyn Kinney

 The interaction of frames, roles and footings: Conversational strategies of

 co-leaders in a long-term group

*Yoshiko Nakano

 Interplay of expectations in cross-cultural miscommunication: A case study of

 negotiations between Americans and Japanese

*Suwako Watanabe

 Framing in group discussion: A comparison between Japanese and American

 students



Interpreting, Challenging, Evaluating Gender

*Jennifer Curtis

 Contestation of masculine identities in a battering intervention program

*Keller S. Magenau

 More than feminine: Attending to power and social distance dimensions in

 spoken and written workplace communication

*Keli Yerian

 Professional and gendered identities in the discourse of two public

 television directors

*Donna Trousdale

 Social languages and privileging: Gender and school science discourse



Discursive Enactments of Cultural Ideologies

*Isolda Carranza

 Stance-making in oral interviews

*Shari E. Kendall

 Religion and experience: Constructed dialogue, narrative, and life story in

 religious testimonies

*Agnes Weiyun He

 Stories as interactional resources: Narrative activity in academic counseling

 encounters

*Orla Morrissey

 Discourse analysis as an evaluation methodology for technology assessment in

 pre-competitive R and D environments



12:45 - 2:15



lunch



2:15 - 3:45



Computational Approaches to Discourse Analysis

*Megan Moser and Johanna D. Moore

 An approach to the study of discourse cues

*Yan Qu

 A computational approach for automatically extracting discourse rules

*Donald Lewis

 Theme and eventline in a Classical Hebrew narrative: A computer-assisted

 analysis



Conversational Moves

*C. Antaki, F. Diaz, A. Collins

 Participants' orientation to footing: Evidence from conversational completion

*Peter Muntigl

 Saving face in argument: An analysis of face-threatening disagreements

*Martin Warren

 How do conversations begin and end?



Fine-tuning Conversation

*Hiroko Spees

 How aizuchi 'back channels' shape and are shaped by the interaction in

 Japanese conversations

*Toshiko Hamaguchi

 Manifestation of shared knowledge in conversation

*Yrjo Engestrom

 Discursive disturbances as bridge between the micro and the macro:

 Evidence from activity-theoretical studies in collaborative work settings



4:00 - 5:00



Plenary Speaker: DEBORAH TANNEN







           **HOW TO CONTACT GLS 1995**



Please send registration and requests for information regarding special

discounts on airfare, accommodations, and transportation to the

Georgetown Linguistics Society:



    GLS 1995            internet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

    Georgetown University      bitnet:  gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet

    Department of Linguistics    voice:   (202) 687-6166

    479 Intercultural Center

    Washington, D.C. 20057-1068



Regularly updated information is available through the World-Wide Web

Georgetown Linguistics Home Page: http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html





             **REGISTRATION**

_____________________________________________________________



PRE-REGISTRATION FORM FOR **GLS 1995**



Please complete and print this form or provide the required information

on another sheet of paper and mail to GLS 1995, Georgetown University,

Department of Linguistics, 479 Intercultural Center, Washington, D.C.

20057-1068



Name:

Affiliation:

Mailing address:

E-mail address:

Phone number:



Registration Fee.

  Please remit the appropriate registration fee in the form of a

  check or money order made payable to "Georgetown University":



                    Student    Non-Student

  Preregistration (through Feb. 10)  $20.00     $30.00

  On-site registration         $30.00     $40.00



Attendance Needs



( ) American Sign Language interpretation



( ) crash space (first-come basis)



( ) other (please specify)

______________________________________________________



End of announcement. Please distribute as widely as possible. Thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:23:21 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: You guys



I grew up in a NY suburb evenly divided demographically into long time

residents, people who moved out from NYC, and people who moved in from the

Midwest (or elsewhere) to take jobs in NYC. Because of the different dialects

represented, language variation was a common recess topic of discussion and/or

mockery. Alongside "Which is right, soda or pop?" and "Say chocolate. Eeew, is

THAT how you say it?" we also had disagreements about the status of "You

guys". Some of my female friends (I'd like to say it was the ones who said POP

instead of SODA, but I honestly don't remember.) were grievously offended at

uses of "you guys" addressing an all-female group. Others of us (me included)

were quite comfortable with this generic usage. This was c. 25 years ago.



Despite my parents' NYC background, I didn't encounter "youse" or variants

thereof until the summer before I entered college, when I had a job in the

city. Of course, my parents claim they moved to Westchester so I WOULDN'T grow

up talking like that!



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 11:53:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject: Re: You guys



My St. Louis cousins used to offend our ears with the term "you guys." We

thought the gender inclusive "you all" or "y'all" much more acceptable.



By the way, isn't today Robert E. Lee's birthday?



EFennell

 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: You guys

Date: Thursday, January 19, 1995 11:23AM



I grew up in a NY suburb evenly divided demographically into long time

residents, people who moved out from NYC, and people who moved in from the

Midwest (or elsewhere) to take jobs in NYC. Because of the different

dialects

represented, language variation was a common recess topic of discussion

and/or

mockery. Alongside "Which is right, soda or pop?" and "Say chocolate. Eeew,

is

THAT how you say it?" we also had disagreements about the status of "You

guys". Some of my female friends (I'd like to say it was the ones who said

POP

instead of SODA, but I honestly don't remember.) were grievously offended at

uses of "you guys" addressing an all-female group. Others of us (me

included)

were quite comfortable with this generic usage. This was c. 25 years ago.



Despite my parents' NYC background, I didn't encounter "youse" or variants

thereof until the summer before I entered college, when I had a job in the

city. Of course, my parents claim they moved to Westchester so I WOULDN'T

grow

up talking like that!



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 12:21:37 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Another Test--Sorry



This is another test regarding confusion between servers and my real address.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 15:27:56 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I've argued on this list and elsewhere something very similar to what Edgar

is proposing, though it probably took second place to my question about

whether y'all could be singular.



You guys is definitely gaining as a 2nd person marked plural, distinguished

from a sg. restoring the lost thou/you at least in informal speech, and may

eventually even make inroads in y'all country. The interesting point is

that here we have yet another masculine generic developing, but in an era

when we have become much more sensitive to inclusivity and are backing away

from generic masculines in other contexts. A vocal minority opposes you

guys on grounds that it is sexist, but the voice of the people, that's

another thing, in't it?



dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 22:57:39 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: WOTY 95 candidate: Astroturf



From TIME on-line this week, lead article on "hyperdemocracy" (WOTY - Not!)

Status: R



refers to:



"pseudo-grass-roots (''Astroturf'') lobbying"



Is this new to you? - AAllan



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jan 1995 to 19 Jan 1995

************************************************



There are 19 messages totalling 596 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 2 pl (15)

 2. The English for some Chinese terms (2)

 3.  No subject given  (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 08:49:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



Lest we forget -- half of the people are women.

 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: Re: 2 pl

Date: Thursday, January 19, 1995 3:27PM



I've argued on this list and elsewhere something very similar to what Edgar

is proposing, though it probably took second place to my question about

whether y'all could be singular.



You guys is definitely gaining as a 2nd person marked plural, distinguished

from a sg. restoring the lost thou/you at least in informal speech, and may

eventually even make inroads in y'all country. The interesting point is

that here we have yet another masculine generic developing, but in an era

when we have become much more sensitive to inclusivity and are backing away

from generic masculines in other contexts. A vocal minority opposes you

guys on grounds that it is sexist, but the voice of the people, that's

another thing, in't it?



dennis

 --

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 10:27:09 EST

From:  Bruce Southard  ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



Dennis Baron's remarks about "you guys" as a developing masculine

generic brought to mind my Illinois-raised wife's story of teaching at

the University of Richmond in the late 60's. She apparently announced

that "you guys" will have a test next Thursday and was surprised when

none of the women showed up for class. When this construction is

introduced to a non-"you guys" speech area, will it be interpreted as a

generic?



Regards,



Bruce Southard



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-757-6041

919-757-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Jan 1995 21:13:24 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I want to second whoever it was that noted that a waitress would not say

"you guys" in a posh restaurant.



On Dennis' note about sexism: Some may find it sexist, but for years

I've heard groups of adolescent and college women call each other "you guys."

I think. Do I imagine that?



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:51:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



The key word there is adolescent.

 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: Re: 2 pl

Date: Thursday, January 19, 1995 9:13PM



I want to second whoever it was that noted that a waitress would not say

"you guys" in a posh restaurant.



On Dennis' note about sexism: Some may find it sexist, but for years

I've heard groups of adolescent and college women call each other "you

guys."

I think. Do I imagine that?



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 10:01:35 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



On girls calling themselves guys:



No Tim, you'ren't imagining girls referring to themselves as guys. My two

daughters (Colorado-raised) did that to refer to their female friends all

through High School and College.



I believe that Guy is taking on the indeterminate, genderless form for Guy or

Gal in the same fashion that He has taken over for He or She.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:29:05 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



As far as I can tell, any genericization (creeping sex-neutrality) of "guys"

only occurs within the vocative "you guys" context. Compare:

 I said "Let's go,you guys", and the women finally left.  (OK)

 I said "Let's go, women", and the guys finally left. (no coref. possible)

My students tell me that one problem is that in their age group, none of the

alternatives (woman, girl, lady) really works, while for males of the same age

"guy" is standard (not man or boy), and their suspicion is that it's easier to

drop the sex-specific gender feature on 'guy' than adapt one of the existing

age- or status-inappropriate female forms. Maybe it's a bit like the (much)

earlier generalization of "bachelor" (bachelor girl, bachelor apartment) to a

gender neutral term replacing the tabooed "spinster".    --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:37:28 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



 I want to second whoever it was that noted that a waitress would not say

 "you guys" in a posh restaurant.

 

 On Dennis' note about sexism: Some may find it sexist, but for years

 I've heard groups of adolescent and college women call each other "you guys."

 I think. Do I imagine that?

 

 Tim



It's true. This may be age-graded to some extent.



dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 13:10:11 -0600

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I'm sure that Tim did not imagine hearing college women referring to each

other as "guys." I also can report seeing a t-shirt worn by a woman at the

University of Kansas: "I am not a guy."



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:14:51 -0800

From:  David Prager Branner  charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: The English for some Chinese terms



    I am a Chinese dialectologist, and am writing to you to ask for

help finding some suitable English words to translate certain Chinese

terms. These are things having to do with farm life. I am hoping someone

can suggest English words for these things - native English words from an

earlier stage of the language, perhaps, or words used in English early in

the period of contact with East Asian and Southeast Asian cultures (such

as "carabao" for "water buffalo", which is a good, distinctive translation

for Chinese _niou_).



    If not, can anyone refer me to some glossary or lexicon of early

English farming lexicon that is short enough to be browsed (shorter than

the Oxford Dictionary of Middle English, e.g.).



    There are three words I am having trouble with. The first is a

resilient pole that is put over the shoulder to carry heavy loads on both

ends - two buckets, perhaps, or two large bundles of kindling brush. I

have been using "shoulder pole" and "burden pole" and "carrying pole" for

this, but people say they don't know what I am talking about. Yet I have

seen objects like this in movies about medieval life in England, and I

can't believe the directors have simply borrowed them from China.



    The next is a word having to do with the rice paddy, the Chinese

wet field: Chinese build raised footpaths out of mud through their

fields, in part to serve as footpaths and in part to demarcate field

boundaries. There are many Chinese words for these footpaths - can you

suggest an English word that really and truly means the same thing, or

something close?



    The last is also related to the rice paddy, but to the "terraced"

rice paddy used in mountainous areas, called a "stepped field" in Chinese.

Paddies themselves are horizontal, but at the back (the mountain side) of

each paddy is a nearly vertical wall of earth. This bank of earth has a

special term in Chinese, and the building, mowing, and maintenance of it

is an important part of field labor. Viewed in silhouette, the stepped

fields look like this:

        __

       _/ \_

      _/   \_

     _/     \_

The "_" symbols represent the little tracts of wet field and the slashes

represent the thing I am talking about, the bank or wall at the back of

each tract of field. Can you think of a name for this, from somewhere in

historical English?



Please respond directly to me at the email or regular mail address below.

I thank you for your time and trouble.



    Yours sincerely,





David Prager Branner, Yuen Ren Society

Asian L&L, DO-21, University of Washington

Seattle, WA 98195                charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 11:19:46 -0800

From:  David Prager Branner  charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



    I am a Chinese dialectologist, and am writing to ask for help

finding some suitable English words to translate certain Chinese terms.

These are things having to do with farm life. I am hoping someone can

suggest English words for these things - native English words from an

earlier stage of the language, perhaps, or words used in English early in

the period of contact with East Asian and Southeast Asian cultures (such

as "carabao" for "water buffalo", which is a good, distinctive translation

for Chinese _niou_).



    If not, can anyone perhaps refer me to some glossary or lexicon of

early English farming lexicon that is short enough to be browsed (shorter

than the Oxford Dictionary of Middle English, e.g.).



    There are three words I am having trouble with. The first is a

resilient pole that is put over the shoulder to carry heavy loads on both

ends - two buckets, perhaps, or two large bundles of kindling brush. I

have been using "shoulder pole" and "burden pole" and "carrying pole" for

this, but people say they don't know what I am talking about. Yet I have

seen objects like this in movies about medieval life in England, and I

can't believe the directors have simply borrowed them from China.



    The next is a word having to do with the rice paddy, the Chinese

wet field: Chinese build raised footpaths out of mud through their

fields, in part to serve as footpaths and in part to demarcate field

boundaries. There are many Chinese words for these footpaths - can you

suggest an English word that really and truly means the same thing, or

something close?



    The last is also related to the rice paddy, but to the "terraced"

rice paddy used in mountainous areas, called a "stepped field" in Chinese.

Paddies themselves are horizontal, but at the back (the mountain side) of

each paddy is a nearly vertical wall of earth. This bank of earth has a

special term in Chinese, and the building, mowing, and maintenance of it

is an important part of field labor. Viewed in silhouette, the stepped

fields look like this:

        __

       _/ \_

      _/   \_

     _/     \_

The "_" symbols represent the little tracts of field and the slashes

represent the thing I am talking about, the bank or wall at the back of

each tract of field. Can you think of a name for this, from somewhere in

historical English?



Please respond directly to my email or regular mail address, below. I

thank you for your time and trouble.



    Yours sincerely,





David Prager Branner, Yuen Ren Society

Asian L&L, DO-21, University of Washington

Seattle, WA 98195                charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 12:07:12 -0800

From:  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



On Fri, 20 Jan 1995, Ellen Fennell wrote:



  The key word there is adolescent.

  ----------

  From: ADS-L

  To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

  Subject: Re: 2 pl

  Date: Thursday, January 19, 1995 9:13PM

 

  I want to second whoever it was that noted that a waitress would not say

  "you guys" in a posh restaurant.

 

  On Dennis' note about sexism: Some may find it sexist, but for years

  I've heard groups of adolescent and college women call each other "you

  guys."

  I think. Do I imagine that?

 

  Tim

 

As a committed feminist and a postadolescent, I have to mention that I

use "you guys" with female addressees and referents. "Guy" is gendered,

in my idiolect, but "you guys" has no gender connotations. This seems to

be true of speakers of all ages in my hometown (in NW Indiana), including

my mother, who is not and never has been an adolescent.



Best,



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley



bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 15:07:36 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



Just to weigh in, I don't quite agree on a couple of points that have

been offered. First, use of "(you) guys" as an address form is

definitely not just an adolescent thing. I've used it gender-neutrally

all my life (I'm 35), since childhood in suburban Westchester (is that

a retronym?), and I know people older than me who do too. My older

sister-in-law, from Chicago/St.Louis/Northern NJ (in that order)

regularly uses it to address her two daughters. Feminists may mind its

increasing use as a so-called "generic masculine", but facts is facts:

it is being used, and not just by marginal groups (teens, men).

    My guess is it will not replace "y'all", though, for as long

as Southerners want to be different from Northerners (certainly the

foreseeable future!). I became a "y'all" user after moving to Georgia

at age 15 (1974-82), but it's one of the single most salient dialect-

markers I can think of. For me, my Southern phonology was incompatible

with "you guys", just as my Northern accent sounds ridiculous with

"y'all". But maybe in medial places like Indiana, etc, it's different.

    Finally, Larry clearly seems to be right but maybe it could be

phrased as: referential (3rd-person) "guys" = [+masculine], while any

use of "guys" as an address form (with or without "you") is at least

potentially neutral for me. At the same time, it can still be used as

an AF in clearly [+masc] contexts, eg in the context of an opposition

to a [+fem] term: "OK, guys on the right, women on the left. Now,

GUYS..." No confusion there, but as a first-mention perhaps it can

be ambiguous?

    --peter patrick

PS. Interesting Q: if "you guys" as neutral is spreading in the NE, is

there any effect on the gender-neutrality of other 2pl forms it comes

into contact with (youse, you'uns/yinz, etc.)?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 15:59:46 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



 

  On Dennis' note about sexism: Some may find it sexist, but for years

  I've heard groups of adolescent and college women call each other "you

  guys."

  I think. Do I imagine that?



No.



In the _Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ (plug, plug)

we have citations for guy 'person of either sex' going back to 1927

(Eugene O'Neill, btw). Though most of these are for the subsense

'a person of either sex regarded as decent, down-to-earth, good company,

etc.', there are several early examples of it being used in direct

address to women. These include:



1932 American Speech VII 401: One girl to others: "Come on, guys."



1942 in Journal Gen. Psych. LXVI (1945) 132: _Guy_...boy, girl,

   student, person....One girl to others: "Come on, you guys."...

   "Guy is used without regard to age [!] or sex.



Best,



Jesse T Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 15:02:31 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



It is a commonplace here in Green Bay for young women to call each other "you

guys," as in "You guys going to the Rat?" (the Rathskellar), both on the

university campus and in the public schools. My daughter attended St. Joseph's

Academy, an all-girls Catholic school, and this was very common in that context

as well (1985-1989). They never said "you girls" or "you gals" or "you women."

In addition, my daughter sometimes says "you guys" when talking to me and my

wife, as in "When are you guys leaving for David's graduation?" (although she

usually says "you" instead).



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 15:35:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject:  No subject given 



I can help you with one term since I was raised in rice country in East

Arkansas. The raised footpaths through the fields that contain an even

depth of water over a section of a rice field are called "levees." The farm

hand, or son of the family must "walk the levees" on a regular basis to make

sure they are intact and aren't letting water run out of one section into

another section of the enormous fields.



Can't think what those load bearing poles are called and I know of no

equivalent to your vertical earth wall since no one grows rice in the US on

terraced paddies. Interesting questions.



E. Fennell



 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Date: Friday, January 20, 1995 11:19AM



    I am a Chinese dialectologist, and am writing to ask for help

finding some suitable English words to translate certain Chinese terms.

These are things having to do with farm life. I am hoping someone can

suggest English words for these things - native English words from an

earlier stage of the language, perhaps, or words used in English early in

the period of contact with East Asian and Southeast Asian cultures (such

as "carabao" for "water buffalo", which is a good, distinctive translation

for Chinese _niou_).



    If not, can anyone perhaps refer me to some glossary or lexicon of

early English farming lexicon that is short enough to be browsed (shorter

than the Oxford Dictionary of Middle English, e.g.).



    There are three words I am having trouble with. The first is a

resilient pole that is put over the shoulder to carry heavy loads on both

ends - two buckets, perhaps, or two large bundles of kindling brush. I

have been using "shoulder pole" and "burden pole" and "carrying pole" for

this, but people say they don't know what I am talking about. Yet I have

seen objects like this in movies about medieval life in England, and I

can't believe the directors have simply borrowed them from China.



    The next is a word having to do with the rice paddy, the Chinese

wet field: Chinese build raised footpaths out of mud through their

fields, in part to serve as footpaths and in part to demarcate field

boundaries. There are many Chinese words for these footpaths - can you

suggest an English word that really and truly means the same thing, or

something close?



    The last is also related to the rice paddy, but to the "terraced"

rice paddy used in mountainous areas, called a "stepped field" in Chinese.

Paddies themselves are horizontal, but at the back (the mountain side) of

each paddy is a nearly vertical wall of earth. This bank of earth has a

special term in Chinese, and the building, mowing, and maintenance of it

is an important part of field labor. Viewed in silhouette, the stepped

fields look like this:

        __

       _/ \_

      _/   \_

     _/     \_

The "_" symbols represent the little tracts of field and the slashes

represent the thing I am talking about, the bank or wall at the back of

each tract of field. Can you think of a name for this, from somewhere in

historical English?



Please respond directly to my email or regular mail address, below. I

thank you for your time and trouble.



    Yours sincerely,





David Prager Branner, Yuen Ren Society

Asian L&L, DO-21, University of Washington

Seattle, WA 98195                charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 17:14:26 -0500

From:  Bill Cole - 919-248-6118  cole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DG-RTP.DG.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



 snip 

      My guess is it will not replace "y'all", though, for as long

  as Southerners want to be different from Northerners (certainly the

  foreseeable future!). I became a "y'all" user after moving to Georgia

  at age 15 (1974-82), but it's one of the single most salient dialect-

  markers I can think of. For me, my Southern phonology was incompatible

  with "you guys", just as my Northern accent sounds ridiculous with

  "y'all". But maybe in medial places like Indiana, etc, it's different.

 snip 



I have to disagree, Peter. "Y'all" has become pretty ubiquitous. I've

heard lots of folks in the Midwest use it. Southerners may have started

it but it's being picked up by other areas.



I would have offered "hey" until last night. "Hey" is the typical greeting

here in the South (there's disagreement if Raleigh or North Carolina is

actually in the South given the vast number of NY, NJ, MD & MA license

plates around here). But on "Mad About You" last night four people greeted

each other with "hey". Scared me.



BTW: "Y'all" may be short for "you all" but "you all" is never used by any

self-respecting Southerner.



Ugly question: How much effect does television have on our dialect?



/Bill Cole     : To do right, love justice and walk humbly.

(919)248-6118

Data General Corp.

Enterprise Application Customer Support Center

RTP, NC

The opinions are my own, thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 16:51:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  BTW: "Y'all" may be short for "you all" but "you all" is never used by any

  self-respecting Southerner.



Oh dear. I use "you all" as often as I use "y'all." Always have. Probably

always will.



  Ugly question: How much effect does television have on our dialect?



Probably none at all except in vocabulary.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 21:14:49 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



An earlier contributer contrasts y'all with you guys, asserting that it

will not be replaced with the northern form. Bill writes in

reply:

  I have to disagree, Peter. "Y'all" has become pretty ubiquitous. I've

  heard lots of folks in the Midwest use it. Southerners may have started

  it but it's being picked up by other areas.

 

  BTW: "Y'all" may be short for "you all" but "you all" is never used by any

  self-respecting Southerner.

 

People in the Midwest do not say y'all. They say you all, which is

syntactically a phrase with a head and a quantifier, not a single lexical

item, which y'all is. Y'all is not short for you all but is a

distinct lexical item.



What I wonder is, can the three dialects of English be defined in

terms of the 2 pl. they have created as a result of the loss of the

older distinction, i.e., Northern 'you guys' (youse guys); Southern

'y'all'; Midland 'youns'?









--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 21:52:30 EST

From:  PS Kuhlman  GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: The English for some Chinese terms



 I believe yoke refers to any crossbar carried across the shoulders to

support two equal weights, usually buckets, on each side of the person.

A yoke normally has a frame to fit the traverse pole to the carrier's

neck and shoulder, but it may refer to a simpler apparatus like the

Chinese one as well. Perhaps this is a place to start in any case. As

you probably know, the most common meaning for yoke is a device to join

two draft animals, usually oxen.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jan 1995 to 20 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 15 messages totalling 326 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 2 pl (7)

 2. 2 pl.

 3.  No subject given  (2)

 4. Address

 5. TV and dialect (3)

 6. 2 pl, "Yankee"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Jan 1995 22:10:52 -0800

From:  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



In my speech, gender-neutral "guys" isn't restricted to the vocative; I can

also use it to refer to a group of women in deictic expressions like

"those guys." Again, this seems to be a pretty general feature; no one

has ever commented on it to me (and I hang with some serious feminists,

all over the country).



Best,



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Jan 1995 10:49:51 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: 2 pl.



If I remember correctly, a variation of "yous" /yuz/ occurs in the

Detroit area, as "yis/yiz" /yIz/. Does this ring a bell with

any of yiz??



Chris Brooks / Kuwait



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 09:12:21 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I'm curious about the "y'all" and "you all" pairs. Would someone who

speaks/lives in a dialect area where "y'all" and "you all" coexist, comment

on which is marked, if either is marked, and for what purpose.



I have in mind a pair like:

"What do y'all want?"

or

"What do you all want?"



Is one of them marked for emphasis, challenge, incredulity, etc.



Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 09:36:41 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  I'm curious about the "y'all" and "you all" pairs. Would someone who

  speaks/lives in a dialect area where "y'all" and "you all" coexist, comment

  on which is marked, if either is marked, and for what purpose.



Interesting questions -- which I can't answer. You've motivated me to do

at least some informal research on the subject, however, if not some formal

research. I'm pretty sure that I say "you all" (run together *almost* to

the point of "y'all" but not quite) more often than "y'all," but both are

in my dialect. I'll start listening to myself as well as to others to see

whether there's a pattern and to make sure this isn't just some idiolectal

oddity.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 11:07:00 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



   I'm curious about the "y'all" and "you all" pairs. Would someone who

   speaks/lives in a dialect area where "y'all" and "you all" coexist, comment

   on which is marked, if either is marked, and for what purpose.

 

 Interesting questions -- which I can't answer. You've motivated me to do

 at least some informal research on the subject,



Same here. I live in Texas and have lived in the South most of my life,

although my parents are from Minnesota and Utah and my own accent is a

mostly un-southern mishmash. However, I use y'all and am quite sure I use

(and hear) you-all, too. I'll pay attention for the next few days. My

immediate thought is that you-all is an intensifier ("You-all don't know

the first thing about this") but I may be wrong.



Incidentally, at age 36, I also use "you guys" without regard to gender or

age, and hear it used that way even among native Texans. The only limiting

factor is formality: I might call an orals board "y'all," but not "you

guys."



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 13:26:35 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: 2 pl



Jesse's plug reminds us that we have great new reference works. After basking

in the "guy" entry he cited in the _Random House Historical Dictionary of

American Slang_, I thought of turning to _DARE_ Volume 2, and there found a

most interesting entry for "-guys" suff HI [=Hawaii], citing in turn such

sources as _American Speech_ 58.69 (1983) : "In Hawaiian Creole . . . _Guys_

is simply the plural morpheme, replacing older _them_ or _dem_."



Let's remember to hit the books! - AAllan



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 14:36:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



Can anybody tell me why mail sent to John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]forsythe.stanford.edu ain't

makin' it? (It's the John.Baugh part that's being rejected.)

While you're bein' friendly, can anybody give me the e-mail address of Bob

Berdan at CSU Long Beach?

Thanks,

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 14:14:28 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Address



  Can anybody tell me why mail sent to John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]forsythe.stanford.edu ain't

  makin' it? (It's the John.Baugh part that's being rejected.)



Try kp.jxb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]forsythe.stanford.edu.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 15:30:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



While I'm pestering people, can anybody help me with James Arthurs' e-mail

address at Univ. of Victoria?

Thanks again,

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 16:00:18 -0500

From:  Francine Frank  FWF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET 

Subject: 2 pl



In all the discussion about 'you guys' as a generic plural, used by

servers in restaurants, etc., I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the

expression 'you folks' While 'guys' is generally heard in informal speech

up here in the 'Great Northeast,' aka Albany, NY, it is very informal and

I have never heard it in a restaurant where 'you folks' seems to be the

preferred informality.

Francine Frank

University at Albany, SUNY

fwf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax.albany.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 18:26:58 -0500

From:  Claudio Salvucci  CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



    What is TV (and I'll broaden the question to include other forms

of mass media: radio, recorded media, etc.) doing to dialects?



    I would have thought that American dialects didn't have a

prayer, but Labov points out that the studies done since the advent

of mass media show that sound change is continuing vigorously in many

areas. Kinda reassuring, isn't it?



    (see Labov, _The Social Origins of Sound Change_, in _Locating

Language in Time and Space_)



    This is, I think, a fascinating question, mostly because this

phenomenon of mass media is so new to the world. Any of yas have some

thoughts on this?



Claudio R. Salvucci

csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 19:29:03 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



"You guys" as a 2d person plural sex-unmarked pronoun is evidently strong

enough to drive implicatures. This afternoon my daughter, age 10, was trying

to convince her friend, also female, that a drawing had been given to her in

particular and not to the two of them jointly. Her trump argument was that

the donor had said in handing it to my daughter, "Here, this is for you" and

not "This is for you guys". Connecticut born and bred.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 19:34:29 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



In fact, Labov's thoughts on the alive-and-wellness of American dialects in

this day of mass media are cited in a piece in today's (actually tomorrow's)

New York Times Magazine. The only other sociolinguist cited is our own Dennis

Preston. It's actually a nice piece, in that the writer, John Tierney, goes

so far as to recreate Labov's famous "Fourth floor" study (from his

disseration), but with Bradlees replacing the defunct S. Klein on the Square

(alongside the still going mid-scale Macy's and upscale Saks). He finds a bit

less r-lessness, but with the same proportions as Labov found in '62 (15% at

Bradlees,40% at Macy's, 50% at Saks), and with the same tendency to "correct"

in careful (self-conscious repair) utterances.

      --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 22:06:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: 2 pl, "Yankee"



Bill Cole says:

# No native Southerner would use "you guys" unless his/her parents

# were unreconstructed Yankees.



From my experience in South Georgia, I'd agree with respect to

unselfconscious speakers. But the situation seems a little more

complicated among educated Southerners.



Among the oldest layer of educated Southerners, from about 55 up, it

seems that Y'ALL was stigmatized during their formative years. The

older faculty members here never use it at all, in any form, at least

in public.



Faculty members in their 40s and early 50s loosen up a little -- I

seldom year Y'ALL from them, but fairly often YOU-ALL, stressed on the

first syllable, and sometimes YOU GUYS. I'm sure the latter is an

importation, but it seems to grow out of discomfort with Y'ALL.



Educated Southerners under 40 generally use Y'ALL freely, in the same

patterns as uneducated folks. But I also occasionally hear YOU GUYS

from people in their 20s, and it makes me wonder whether Y'ALL and YOU

GUYS have a slightly different range of possible referents.



What makes me think this is that I've noticed an interesting ambiguity

in Y'ALL as it is used hereabouts. Y'ALL so often means "you and a

group you belong to" or even "you as a representative of the

organization for which you work" that this meaning can impinge upon

the normal "those who I am speaking to right now" meaning. For

example, I said something like "when are y'all leaving" to a couple of

student assistants in our tutoring lab, and they asked me whether I

meant them or when was the lab closing. In my experience YOU GUYS

never meant "your organization", so that I would never ask a store

clerk "Do you guys have long underwear", a common slot for Y'ALL. So

I wonder if YOU GUYS might be creeping into Y'ALL territory as a way

of disambiguating "you and you" from "you and them".



Another interesting use of Y'ALL/YOU ALL: One day I said to my class

something like "If y'all want an assignment for extra credit ..." and

one of my students said, "Don't you 'you-all' me, I've got plenty to

do already." Apparently "Don't 'you-all' me" meant "Don't include me

in your y'all." I have no idea whether the pronunciation "you-all"

was significant, but this was about a 30-year-old woman who has lived

on a farm all her life and shows no pretensions in her normal speech.



A comment on YOU GUYS: I grew up in Dalton (Berkshire County)

Massachusetts. Apparently when I was a teenager in the 50s YOU GUYS

could not refer to females, because one of my first linguistic shocks

when I went off to college in 1959 was hearing my peers address groups

of girls with that term. I thought it was hilarious. I don't know

whether this means that YOU GUYS was just getting grammaticalized at

that time or I had grown up in an area isolated enough not to have

encountered it yet.



Ah yes, and a question about YANKEE.



We all know that to foreigners a yankee is an American, to Southerners

it's a Northerner, and to Northerners it's some sort of old-fashioned

New Englander. But there are some differences in usage: for instance,

YANK is only used in the "American from a foreign point of view"

meaning; the Southerner's YANKEE is never shortened. What I'm curious

about, though, is whether anyone else would agree with me that in its

"New Englander" meaning it is never used as a stand-alone noun. It

can be an adjective (YANKEE TRADER, YANKEE INGENUITY, etc.) or a

modified noun (CONNECTICUT YANKEE, ROCK-RIBBED YANKEE), but never HE'S

A REAL YANKEE or anything like that. Also, in my perception a

Connecticut Yankee is a type of Connecticuter (?), whereas to a

Southerner it would be a type of Yankee, no? Does anyone else have

these limitations on YANKEE?



David Johns

Waycross College

Waycross, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Jan 1995 22:15:14 -0600

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



 today's)(actually tomorrow's)

  New York Times Magazine. The only other sociolinguist cited is our own Dennis

 

Ah, Larry, to live again in a place where I could get the Sunday times on

Saturday night...





--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jan 1995 to 21 Jan 1995

************************************************



There are 10 messages totalling 180 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 2 pl, "Yankee" (5)

 2. ADS Net Resources

 3. 2nd pl. (3)

 4. TV and dialect



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 09:11:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: 2 pl, "Yankee"



You guys meaning something like the organization you represent is common here

in Michigan. Do you guys have long underwear? (a sentence a CRAN [Curiously

Removed Apppalachian in the North] like me is apt to ask these days).

You-all versus yall was socially marked in Louisville in the 50s. The first

was perceived by middle class (especially lower middle class) speakers to be

OK; they avoided the second and associated it with hick and/or working class

speech. The truth was (so far as I can reconstruct it) that upper middle (and

probably upper) class speakers and working class speakers both used it. The

you-all speakers were, therefore, the more classically linguistically

insecure, although the various regional inputs into the Louisville might also

have been partly responsible.

I cannot reconstruct (and probably should not try) any subtle pragmatic or

semantic differences between the two, but I am intrigued by the possibility.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 08:34:59 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl, "Yankee"



  You-all versus yall was socially marked in Louisville in the 50s. The first



What's your data source? Y'all have gotten me interested enough in this

topic to give serious consideration to exploring it formally.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 08:41:37 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: ADS Net Resources



Since we've had a good many new subscribers to ADS-L during the past

couple of weeks, I should perhaps remind people of the list-related

net resources.



On the WWW:

http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/

(also reachable from the MSU homepage -- http://www.msstate.edu/ -- click

 on "Other Resources...")



Gopher:

gopher.msstate.edu

#3 on first menu, #1 on next menu



Ftp:

ftp.msstate.edu

cd pub/archives/ADS



The only thing in the ftp space now is logs of mail from ADS-L. If you

have documents to contribute, please send them to me. The ftp and gopher

files are accessible from the Web URL, btw.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 11:26:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl, "Yankee"



My comments on social distribution in Louisville are untrustworthy memory

(which I wouldn't extend to semantic/pragmatic variation).

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 10:59:36 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl, "Yankee"



  My comments on social distribution in Louisville are untrustworthy memory



Thanks. If I write an article, I'll be sure to list the reference as

Preston, Dennis. (1995). Untrustworthy Memory.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 11:11:26 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: 2 pl, "Yankee"



 You-all versus yall was socially marked in Louisville in the 50s. The first

 was perceived by middle class (especially lower middle class) speakers to be

 OK; they avoided the second and associated it with hick and/or working class

 speech.



I've been doing a bit of highly unrigorous listening and asking-around. One

woman of about 40, a native of Southeast Texas with a distinct accent, told

me she uses you-all consciously in situations "when 'y'all' doesn't sound

formal enough." I've lived in the South since I was six and this

distinction would never have occurred to me.



BTW she also uses "you guys."



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 12:53:23 -0500

From:  Claudio Salvucci  CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM 

Subject: Re: 2nd pl.



    I'm cursing myself for throwing a large chunk of unread mail

where this 2nd plural discussion first came up. My apologies if

I'm going back over explored territory, but I'm dying to know what

happens to these forms, (y'all, youse, you guys) in the possessive.



    Y'all's doesn't sound too bad to me, but youse's offends the

ear and I'm not that crazy about you guys's either. I think I would

know if I had heard these forms before, but maybe there's something

crucial I'm missing...



Claudio R. Salvucci

csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 10:45:36 -0800

From:  Scott Schwenter  schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2nd pl.



  I'm dying to know what

 happens to these forms, (y'all, youse, you guys) in the possessive.

 

     Y'all's doesn't sound too bad to me, but youse's offends the

 ear and I'm not that crazy about you guys's either. I think I would

 know if I had heard these forms before, but maybe there's something

 crucial I'm missing...

 

 Claudio R. Salvucci

 csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



It seems to me that the possessive for you guys is doubly (or triply?)

marked: your guys's [gaizez]. Not marking possession on you sounds very

strange to my ear. The only 2pl. form I ever use and the one I considered

"standard" growing up in Michigan was you guys. My sisters used it all the

time to refer to their groups of all-female friends.



Scott Schwenter



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 16:25:47 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



I assume that TV has little effect on dialect cause its all one-way; its

not (yet) an interactive medium.



Tim, in snowy w. central IL.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 16:49:30 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2nd pl.



As someone who grew up on a farm in Texas (parents born in Arkansas), I'm

a native speaker of y'all. For some reason I don't feel comfortable with

'you all' as for formal form. I prefer to use 'you' for the formal plural.

'Y'all's' of course is the natural possessive. Many 'you all' speakers

say 'your all's' as the possessive. I've heard 'youens's' for that possessive.



Having recently slipped into senior citizenry, I feel more and more comfortable

using 'y'all' in a wider variety of contexts. When John Algeo was here to

give the Peter Tamony Memorial Lecture on American Language a couple of years

ago, he used 'y'all' when addressing the audience in the less formal portion

of his presentation. If John can, I can. He grew up in St. Louis, but

his years at U Ga had a lot to do with his free use of the term. DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jan 1995 to 22 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 150 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. you guys

 2. Unsubscribe

 3. TV and dialect (3)

 4. 2 pl



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Jan 1995 21:29:03 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: you guys



Tim Frazer wrote:

  Some may find it sexist, but for years I've heard groups of

  adolescent and college women call each other "you guys."

  I think. Do I imagine that?



Douglas Hofstadter reported hearing a woman say that "even _guys_"

use the word `guys' for both genders.



Bill Cole saith:

  . . . . "Y'all" has become pretty ubiquitous. I've

  heard lots of folks in the Midwest use it. Southerners may

  have started it but it's being picked up by other areas.



I never hear it, perhaps because in California we take the time

to say "you two" or "you all" or "you folks".



  I would have offered "hey" until last night. "Hey" is the typical greeting

  here in the South (there's disagreement if Raleigh or North Carolina is

  actually in the South given the vast number of NY, NJ, MD & MA license

  plates around here). But on "Mad About You" last night four people greeted

  each other with "hey". Scared me.



That _is_ common in California.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 11:51:54 EST

From:  SHANE J SALLEE  sjsall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Unsubscribe



Please unsubscribe me from this list. I can't take this mail anymore



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 10:47:49 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



I don't think this is necessarily an example of the media having

influence on dialect, but I am curious about what would seem to me to

be a spreading pronunciation change that I have become aware of by

listening to the media. I have noticed that many radio announcers,

especially on NPR, are now pronouncing words such as _tour_ as is

they rhymed with _lore_ rather than _lure_. The same is true for all

the derivatives: _tourist_, _ detour_, etc. I don't know if this is by

analogy to other forms such as _four_, _gourd_, etc. or if this is

simply a case of accent coaching to conform to a perceived

prestige pronunciation or if all these announcers belong to a dialect

group where this is prevelant. I am suspicious that there is some

prestige factor involved, partly because there is an American tendancy,

as opposed to the British, to retain more elements of the original

pronunciation of borrowings from French (I posted something about that

a few weeks ago on this list). So the spread of the more assimilated version

looks suspiciously like a prestige-driven innovation.



Has this struck anyone else as being curious, or am I suffering from a

dialectal blind-spot on this?



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 14:19:39 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



This New Yorker has (as far as I can remember) always pronounced

tour to rhyme with lore rather than lure (in my speech, the difference

is that there's a glide after the l in lure; the vowels sound the same

to me). I'm 31, born and raised in Queens County; my mother immigrated

to New York (from Germany, via France) as a girl, and my father was

raised in the Bronx.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 17:24:42 -0600

From:  "Jeffrey H. Allen AXIS CONTRACT"  jhaaxis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLATE.TID.CAT.COM.LOCAL 

Subject: TV and dialect



Just a response to Tim Frazer's statement "I assume that TV has little effect on

dialect cause it's all one-way; it's not (yet) an interactive medium".



I agree that TV is far from being interactive, but it is influencial. Much

 depends

on the varieties that we call dialects in the statement. It is interesting to

 see

in the Caribbean the influence that American TV has had on the French creole

 spoken

in St. Lucia where British English has prevailed as the official language of the

country. Loanwords, especially in the area of new technology, (ie kompyouta)

 are

entering into the French Creole.



Now turning Stateside, if we were to consider Louisiana French Creole and the

Cajun French varieties as competing dialects with English, TV has had a profound

effect of English loanword integration into these non-lexically related

 dialects.



It would also be interesting to investigate a diachronic survey of mass media

influence of American English upon Gullah English creole spoken on the islands

 of

the coast of Georgia. Salikoko Mufwene at the University of Chicago has done a

lot of work on Gullah. He may have some comments on the acrolect affecting the

basilectal and mesolectal Creole varieties via mass media.



Jeff Allen

CTE/AMT project

Bldg AD180, Caterpillar Inc

600 W. Washington St.

Peoria, IL 61630

e-mail: allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com  OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 22:27:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I use "you guys", esp in mixed groups.



But, what is you guys' first take on this:

Someone on another list, in her reply to a question about why the list

seemed quiet this weekend, said/wrote/posted:

    "But remember, lots of our guys are not in the eastern time zone."



My immediate understanding was that she meant, the males on the list, and

I was confused about why she would only mention the males. It was only

when I considered it, that I understood "our guys" to mean all of us.



Is "our guys" gender specific for anyone else?



One other "guys" question: I use "you guys when the group I'm addressing

is pretty clearly younger than I am.



Beth



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jan 1995 to 23 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 31 messages totalling 769 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. tour, tore (3)

 2. You guys

 3. TV and dialect (4)

 4. 2 pl (10)

 5. Unsubscribe (2)

 6. 2pl

 7. poor and pour (was Re: TV and dialect) (2)

 8. "Coke" (4)

 9. Cajuns & TV

 10. Coke...NOT

 11. Query: Writing Centers and Writing Lab Set Ups

 12. Arabic phonetics



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:04:26 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: tour, tore



Mike Picone asks about the pronunciation of _tour_ to rhyme with _lore_ rather

than _lure_. I generally think of this as the _poor_, _pore_, _pour_ question.

When I first took intro to linguistics, I was quite shocked that there seemed

to be people for whom these aren't homonyms, and hard pressed to figure out

just *how* they might be different. Not to mention how _horse_ and _hoarse_

could be pronounced differently. On the other hand, it's perfectly obvious to

me how _merry_, _marry_, and _mary_ *must* be different. Go figure.



Like Vicki Rosenzweig, I'm more-or-less a New Yorker. But I can't believe this

is *just* a NY kinda thing.



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:12:02 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: You guys



And while I'm at it, on the whole "you guys" thing... There was an AP story

today about citizen outrage in Japan about perceived government inefficiency

in response to the Kobe earthquake. The story ended with lots of person-on-

the-street quotes that I presume were translated from Japanese. From the story:

    "A high school student told Chief Cabinet Secretary Kozo Igarashi: 'I

    want you guys to do something, not as politicians but as human beings,

    as soon as possible.'"

Is this simply a translation of a 2nd plu pronoun in Japanese? Or what? (The

article also notes that one of the other survivors speaking on a live national

tv dialog bet. survivors and government officials was specifically not using

the honorific style that people ordinarily use addressing leaders.

the honorific style that people ordinarily use addressing leaders.

There should be a close paren at the end of the last line, alas.

Anyway, I was just curious if anyone else had noticed this. The translation of

the student's remarks is certainly idiomatic English, but I was wondering

where the "you guys" came from.



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:26:25 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Mike Picone asked some questions about [U] before /r/. Rather than regional

dialect, this item seems to me to be language change. In my 37 years of

teaching, it seems I've heard an increasing frequency of [por] for [pUr] and

other similar words. Picone's 'tour' is one of them. If you examine which

vowel distinctions we have before /r/ (however realized phonetically), you'll

see spelling evidence, if not regional/social evidence,of the collapsing of

vowel distinctions in this context. When I was in high school I was taught

(later taught it myself) that [por] is a [pUr] way to say that word; it

reveals hillbilly ignorance.   Well, don't we hear [po[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] in British

English? So my teachers were wrong! I don't think the [U] realization

of -or/spelled words was common in our family, so I agreed with the teachers,

smugly. As I've "matured" I've gotten a broader picture. Do the paradigm of

vowels before -/r/ and see how many you have -- more than 5? If more than 5,

you're not very modern. We all know about Mary, merry, marry. And maybe we

know about mere, mirror vis-a`-vis high front vowels. Well, the high and

mid back vowels want to get into the act. Most young students at Missouri

have no high back vowel before /r/. As with 'sure' (= "shirr"), the medial

vowel in the name of the Show-Me state is now said, by many-many young people,

as "err" (the way dictionary editors usually want you to say the word). That

is, the high back vowel, whether tense or lax, has merged with /o/ before

/r/ when it has a spelling that suggests "o" and has merged with the mid

central "retroflex" vowel when its spelling suggests a "u" of some sort.

Some stubborn words like 'pure' resist the dialectal preparation for the

millenium, but it's not far behind in the parade. I don't think I would

have noticed this development if I hadn't been shamelessly passing out

questionnaires asking students and their friends to fess up to saying

'Missouri' with -uh or with -ee, the fessing depending on attitude toward

each of these "correct" pronunciations. Look for an article from me on

 this in a year or so (Am Speech if they have the good judgment to accept my

humble submission). Within a few years I began noticing a high incidence of

'err" in the middle of this great American word! (my tongue is in my cheek

here, but you'll have to wait for my article to find out why.)



So, Mike, it ain't just a penchant for snootiness. It's a patriotic

language change that sends today's yuppies on tores of distant shores

where they're shirr to get a good tan, fer shirr. The 'shore' pronunciation

of 'sure' always seemed, in my wisdom-filled youth, to reek of more ignorance

than did 'pore' for 'poor'. So there!

Of course there's some regionality; there almost always is in language change.

When I left the South Midland tones of Texas and came to Missouri, I was

struck by the apparent fact (I didn't do a systematic count) of the much

higher incidence ot [por] in Midwestern English, both North Midland and SWINE.

I hope younger scholar is beginning to trace this item. A good research

project for an assistant professor seeking heavy stuff for tenure things.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 01:23:41 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I consciously use "you guys" when addressing, informally or semi-formally,

a group of college-age students who are likely to use the term. I'd

never use it with my (aging) peers.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 05:07:40 -0600

From:  Gregory D Waltigney  walt0015[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unsubscribe



Please unsubscribe me from this list.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 18:56:08 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2pl



I'm catching up on backlog so this thread may have gone

by the by already. But, in any case, guys does show up

in non-direct address: "What're those guys doing?" but I

think it may need the demonstrative to refer to a mixed

group.



I have always used "guys"--originally as "youns guys" now as

"you guys" as do my daughters. What is different from "man"

is that "man" was always a school form, while schools work

to erdicate "guys." Guess who's winning. The only people

I've heard argue that "you guys" is masculine only are people

overly schooled. I've lived in PA, ND, IN, IL, and NE. I say

"you all" when I need to differentiate sg and pl in a formal

setting. ("You all" on the first day of class to students.

"You guys" on the last day.)

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Jan 1995 23:04:25 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Jeff Allx%`.en writes asserting that American TV English has had a

great effect on loanword integration into Gullah, Louisiana Cajun and

Creole French, and the receding French Creole of St. Lucia.

    (On the latter, I haven't yet been to St. Lucia-- though I

hope to in '96 for the Society of Caribbean Linguistics conference!--

but if it's like the rest of the caribbean, they probably also have

British TV and local TV in various Standard and mesolectal Englishes.)

    All these places are in contact with majorities of English

speakers on a daily basis. Jeff, why do you think any loanword

integration from English is due to TV, rather than to normal face-to-

face language contact with speakers of English? I don't understand.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but there's lots of evidence for

transmission by contact, and I don't know of any for transmission by

TV alone (maybe TV rarely occurs without a supporting community of

speakers of its variety).

    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 00:19:00 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



So what's the consensus? Is "y'all" psreading to the Midwest, as Bill

Cole says? or is that merely the ubiquitous "you-all"?

    I never denied "y'all" might spread North-- lots of great

Southern things have, after all. I'm just skeptical about "you guys"

becoming so regionally unmarked that it would enter the Southern

vernacular. David Johns's data about "you guys" use by college faculty

of a certain age in Waycross actually tends to confirm this point, I

think-- they may be one of the only groups linguistically insecure

enough to avoid "y'all" consistently in front of other Southerners

(unless they mostly do it in front of Northern observers?). I'm not so

sure they're a good sample of "educated Southerners" in general, though,

or certainly for South Georgia vernacular speech. (Not that that was

claimed.)

    My mother, like Natalie, also used both "y'all" (which she'd

trained herself out of after a decade in Manhattan, until we moved

back to her hometown of Athens GA in her 50s) and "you-all" regularly,

and I think Ron Rabin's Q is a great one. My feeling is that use of

"you-all" is a bit more formal, thus distancing, and more likely to be

used either to outsiders, social/educational superiors, or people whom

the speaker is irritated/suspicious of (or other negative affect). But

I wouldn't put them in that sentence frame:

    "What do y'all/you-all want?"

since it's so bare as to border on rudeness, and thus sounds like no

place for "you-all" (and hardly even for "y'all" except with great

provocation!). Does anyone else buy this Brown & Gilman-type analysis?

What do you-all think? (address term of choice for a large audience

with considerable non-Southern membership!)

    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 06:28:32 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  Is "our guys" gender specific for anyone else?



Yes. I would assume that "our guys" referred to males only. I think

that most people are familiar with "you guys," however. It's probably

one of the first examples of Yankeespeak a Southern child is introduced

to. But I can't imagine saying it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 06:30:32 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Unsubscribe



  Please unsubscribe me from this list.



Reminder: To unsubscribe, send this command to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu:



unsub ads-l



Or send me a note and I'll remove you from the list. If you send such

a request to the list address, about two hundred people who aren't

interested in it and who can't help you will have to read it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:19:19 +0000

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: poor and pour (was Re: TV and dialect)



How interesting that poor and pour are becoming homophonous: if it's

snooty, or trying to be un-British like by being closer to the original

pronunciation, well most English young people pronounce these words the

same as well (but without the final r, as 'po:'. By o: I mean the

"backawrds C", in England the vowel in "caught"). I still have the

distinction, but often don't use it.



I'm intersted because I considered the progressive coalesence of /u[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ and

/o:/ (itself sometimes originiting from the now rare /o[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/), was due to the

odd structure of a diphthong like /u[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/, and its other counterparts which

arose with r-deletion. All non-Rhotic dilaects of English that I know

about are trying like mad to get rid of these anomalous diphthongs ending

in schwa. RP's most stable one is i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE], but even that is often pronounced

as e:, (=backwards 3, and the vowel in "there", which is still,

archaically (well, some people still use it) normally transcribed as

"e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]").



So, that it's occurring in New York, formerly a non-rhotic area, doesn't

surprise me. And we all know that once a distinction's been lost, it's

difficult to re-establish, so in learning rhoticism, a New Yorker

might well pronounce "poor" as /por/.



But I'm confused as to the link with Merry, Mary, marry: may be something

more general is going on before /r/ even when it hasn't been dropped. Do

dialects which do this tense the vowel, I wonder?



If people are interested, I can describe what's happening in England as well!



Maik Gibson

University of Reading



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:00:18 +0000

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Jeff Allen seems to be right when he says that TV does have a role in

spreading new words into dialects: but that seems to be about as far as

it goes. There's no evidence that I'm aware of that sound chnages spread

this way at all, in fact there's quite a bit of counterevidence that it

could be a very strong force.

It seems to be that levelling processes work very different ways in the

lexicon form how they do in the rest of the grammar. In our modern mass

communication world, we're getting lexically levelling (even by email!):

American words are constantly being adopted in Britain, mainly thru TV i

would suppose, but apart from an increase in t-tapping, which us also

native to this side of the Atlantic, and which John Wells has argued

might be helped by TV from the USA, there are no American phonetic traits

spreading over here: in those areas which are still rhotic/r-ful, the "r"

is getting ever rarer.



Maik Gibson

University of Reading



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:10:40 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: poor and pour (was Re: TV and dialect)



 But I'm confused as to the link with Merry, Mary, marry: may be something

 more general is going on before /r/ even when it hasn't been dropped. Do

 dialects which do this tense the vowel, I wonder?

 

 If people are interested, I can describe what's happening in England as well!

 

 Maik Gibson

 University of Reading



I seem to hear this distinction among non-rhotic speakers ( and children of

non-rhotic speakers--students often say their r's around me, a non-native

in Central Georgia, so I can't tell what the students are at home). A clue

to the distinction is the inclusion of the /r/ with the following syllable,

not the preceding vowel. Ma + ry, etc. Similarly, non-rhotic speakers

here divide /po[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ into something like /po/ + /w[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/. The result has two

syllables.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:55:09 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Jeff Allen responded to my comment on TV as an interactive medium

with exmamples of English loanwords in Carribean creoles, Cajun French,

and, speculatively, in Gullah. I would tend to agree. "Spin" has become

part of my own vocabulary,in the sense of image control.



But--and I should have been more specific--I was really thinking of

structural phenomena as phonology, phonetics, syntax, morphology. i

don't see TV as it now exists having much influence in these areas.

I don't think there's much chance that, as a result of TV, Cajuns will

start sounding like the NBC Handbook of Pronunciation.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:53:41 EST

From:  Boyd Davis  FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



on shifting to 'you guys' -- I've noticed that, over the last few years, as

our department deliberately recruited from out of the region, I've shifted to

generic 'you guys' in order to accomodate them. Most of these faculty have

been from the midwest, and had difficulty handling either y'all or youall

at first. Now, however, they happily (and unconsciously) use youall/y'all

all unawares, just as I find myself using you guys. Natalie, over the next

few weeks, I'll listen for when any of us shift and for whether I pick up

any differences between y'all and youall when used.

  (originally I am from Dennis' region, and agree with his analysis, so

you may want to cite this as Collective Faulty Memory)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:06:09 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  all unawares, just as I find myself using you guys. Natalie, over the next

  few weeks, I'll listen for when any of us shift and for whether I pick up

  any differences between y'all and youall when used.



Thanks. I've definitely decided to do at least a smallish research project

on this topic and will appreciate all references and data sent my way.



   (originally I am from Dennis' region, and agree with his analysis, so

  you may want to cite this as Collective Faulty Memory)



Allan, do you think ADS in Chicago next December will accept a paper based

entirely on Collective Faulty Memory? Surely that's more convincing that

Individual Faulty Memory. Or should I perhaps not list my sources in the

abstract? (Then again, it's awfully cold in Chicago in late December...)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:00:18 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: 2 pl



   you may want to cite this as Collective Faulty Memory)

 

 Allan, do you think ADS in Chicago next December will accept a paper based

 entirely on Collective Faulty Memory? Surely that's more convincing that

 Individual Faulty Memory. Or should I perhaps not list my sources in the

 abstract? (Then again, it's awfully cold in Chicago in late December...)

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I think it should be a session on collective recovered faulty memory.

Cover all the bases.



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:57:00 CST

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET 

Subject: "Coke"



I'm trying to get a handle on the trade-name-to-generic phenomenon that *Coke*

has been undergoing for maybe thirty-odd years now. I know what DARE says, wha

t all the standard dictionaries and dictionaries of slang say, etc; what I _don

't_ know is where, exactly, the word *coke* is currently used to refer to all c

arbonated soda ("pop," if you prefer). Will you please, then, query your class

es and get back to me? I suspect, too, that the significant independent variab

le here will be age, so have your students ask their parents/grandparents. Tha

nks in advance. (You can reply to me privately, and ultimately I'll coordinate

 all your answers and report back to the list.)



       Tom Murray (TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 12:16:06 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "Coke"



"coke" used to mean any canned or bottled soda--Seattle WA, seven

infs, ages 26-34 in 1984, males and females. One editor, turning

to others in room: "I'm gonna go get some cokes. What kind of cokes

do you want?"



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:29:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



Hmm, relying on individual faulty memory, I do agree that it seems you-all

is used in more formal situations when addressing superiors or Yankees or

other unaccustomed to the phrase. (Addressing superiors who are Yankees

might call for dropping it altogether.) Y'all is reserved for those

well-versed in southern-speak and is quicker, more informal and perhaps

what one would refer to as country. I feel foolish using either when

actually writing a letter -- yet I do it, because "you" so fails to convey

the plural.. You-all is more acceptable in letter form (particularly when

writing Yankees).

 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: Re: 2 pl

Date: Tuesday, January 24, 1995 10:06AM



  all unawares, just as I find myself using you guys. Natalie, over the

next

  few weeks, I'll listen for when any of us shift and for whether I pick up

  any differences between y'all and youall when used.



Thanks. I've definitely decided to do at least a smallish research project

on this topic and will appreciate all references and data sent my way.



   (originally I am from Dennis' region, and agree with his analysis, so

  you may want to cite this as Collective Faulty Memory)



Allan, do you think ADS in Chicago next December will accept a paper based

entirely on Collective Faulty Memory? Surely that's more convincing that

Individual Faulty Memory. Or should I perhaps not list my sources in the

abstract? (Then again, it's awfully cold in Chicago in late December...)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 11:40:00 PST

From:  Ellen Fennell  EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG 

Subject: Re: "Coke"



True in the South as well, except for my dad who used to call them "sodys"

 We could have orange sodys or red sodys or purple sodys-- there was much

variety in those days. I was in Africa recently and enjoyed a bright green

Fanta, not available here, perhaps fortunately.

 ----------

From: ADS-L

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: Re: "Coke"

Date: Tuesday, January 24, 1995 12:16PM



"coke" used to mean any canned or bottled soda--Seattle WA, seven

infs, ages 26-34 in 1984, males and females. One editor, turning

to others in room: "I'm gonna go get some cokes. What kind of cokes

do you want?"



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 09:45:57 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



On Mon, 23 Jan 1995 22:27, Beth Lee Simon writes:



  Someone on another list, in her reply to a question about why the list

  seemed quiet this weekend, said/wrote/posted:

      "But remember, lots of our guys are not in the eastern time zone."

 

  My immediate understanding was that she meant, the males on the list, and

  I was confused about why she would only mention the males. It was only

  when I considered it, that I understood "our guys" to mean all of us.

 

  Is "our guys" gender specific for anyone else?



Odd thing, that. When I read the example, my first thought was that

it was an awkward statement, and that the the author meant males.

However, I quickly thought of a situation in which the sentence did not

strike me as awkward: when *our* guys are being contrasted with their

guys (whoever "they" might be). And in this context "guy" is completely

genderless.



Anton Sherwood wrote that Douglas Hofstadter reported hearing a woman say

"even _guys_" use the word `guys' for both genders. As in that example,

it seems that in my speech "guys", when stressed, is +male, but when

unstressed is epicene.



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 10:49:30 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Cajuns & TV



The question of TV influence in the chronology of the decline of Cajun

French is to be viewed in the larger context of a web of inroads into

Cajun life and community made by the dominant Anglo culture. While

the end to backwoods isolation brought with it economic opportunities,

especially in the wake of the oil boon and its spin-off industries, it

has also brought Cajun French to the brink of its existence. TV is a part

of this equation, and so, indirectly, it has been an instrument of decline

contributing to the demise of many things Cajun, including the language.

It would be hard to prove, however, that TV directly disturbed the Cajun

language by its mere presence. The most debilitating element affecting the

language was its systematic stigmatzation to the point that parents no

longer spoke it to their kids, for fear that the latter would be dis-

enfranchized. For the first half of the present century, French was an

`illegal language', proscribed from use in educational institutions by

state law.



Now what constitute an interesting problem is the following scenario: Cajun

French speakers abandon wholesale their dominant language to speak English

at home for benefit of kids; kids must constitute a dominant code for them-

selves in English from the semi-lingual parents and from whatever other

English raw material they come in contact with. School is an obvious place,

but if their peer group is mostly other kids in the same situation, then

kids will reinforce each other in the adoption of a distictively local code.

Certainly something of this sort took place to explain the existence of

Cajun English, even among many monolinguals. However, some Cajuns feel as if

they have been deprived of both languages. This perception is probably mostly

due to the stigmatization associated with both Cajun codes, but it is also

possible that, given the special set of circumstances suggested above, a

variety of codes exist that leave their speakers feeling like semi-

linguals when interacting with anyone from outside. It is also possible

that some Cajuns would look to radio and TV more for the benefit of their

English. At least one lay testimony would lead us to believe this is so:



"...by 1950, when television became prominent in most Cajun households,

the Cajuns were stripped of their culture and language and were unable

to learn the American culture and language. Television provided that

means. Television simply taught Cajuns how to speak English."

(Randall P. Whatley & Harry Jannise, _Converstional Cajun French I_, p. x,

 1978)



To say that TV taught Cajuns English is an obvious exaggeration, but behind

it lies some valid testimony to the importance of TV as a point of reference

in a context where reference points were up for grabs. Perhaps, therefore,

TV had special impact on some Cajuns, but this impact was obviously limited

in scope since Cajun English is not TV English. At any rate, to the extent

that TV did have linguistic impact, it was the prior stigmatization of French

and abrupt transmission failure that paved the way for this, not the mere

presence of TV.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 13:15:02 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Coke...NOT



Tom, not only will age be a significant variable, I strongly suspect that area

will figure into this. No/Yes?





Also, won't this become a coke/pop/soda question? As far as a generic term is

considered.





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 14:19:55 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "Coke"



Regional terms for "soft drinks" was a theme a few months ago, as I

recall. "Coke" is widespread in its generic sense in the SOuthern MOuntain

region, which, however, as I pointed out earlier, also uses "dope"

(generally rural, though age-graded in favor of older speakers).



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 17:14:33 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Query: Writing Centers and Writing Lab Set Ups



My dean is curious about how writing centers are administered at other

colleges and universities. He is also curious about computer writing labs

with interactive set ups (i. e., the instructor can flash his screen up on

the students' screens or examine and edit a student's file from his own

screen, etc.).



At any rate here are my questions:



1. At your institution, who administers the writing center?



2. Are there problems/advantages with this arrangement?



3. Do you use some kind of interactive software/network system in your

computer writing lab? What software/network do you use? Is it worth the

money?



Members of the list would probably prefer you to send your answers to me

privately at my e-mail address below.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:25:05 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: tour, tore



The observation made me think about my own pronunciation and I realize that I

used to say tour (when living in New Jersey and New York), but I now have to

admit that I pronounce the word to rhyme with tore. I wonder if my twelve year

stay in Western PA has anything to do with this change?



Bhhudson



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:31:58 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



  Allan, do you think ADS in Chicago next December will accept a paper based

  entirely on Collective Faulty Memory? Surely that's more convincing

  Individual Faulty Memory. Or should I perhaps not list my sources in the

  abstract? (Then again, it's awfully cold in Chicago in late December...)

    --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



 I think it should be a session on collective recovered faulty memory.

 Cover all the bases.



 Dennis



I don't know, you guys. Sounds like we'd be just setting ourselves up for a

devastating expose on False Collective Recovered Faulty Memory Syndrome...



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:31:21 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



I've sometimes heard the expression "us guys" but I've never heard a female use

it.



Bhhudson



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 21:56:04 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Arabic phonetics



From:  MX%"LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" 24-JAN-1995 21:54:11.43

To:   MX%"simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU"

CC:

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To: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

CC: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Message-ID:  0098AF5D.7879FEA0.16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Arabic phonetics



Help please.

Can anyone tell me where to find a chart for arabic consonants

and vowels. Doesn't have to be a chart. A page. A description. Something.

Anything. Thanks,



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Jan 1995 20:52:33 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: tour, tore



For this Philadelphian, tour=tore, pour=poor=pore, horse=hoarse, but

merry, Mary, and marry have 3 very distinct pronunciations.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Jan 1995 to 24 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 125 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Arabic phonetics

 2. 2 pl

 3. arabic phonetics

 4. Query: Writing Centers an...

 5. Textbook

 6. poor and pour

 7. Tidbits



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 00:50:37 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Arabic phonetics



From Cairo via telnet:



Re Arabic phonetics, please see my article called "Arabic," in B. Comrie,

The World's Major Lgs., Oxford UP, 1987.



Alan Kaye



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 11:16:06 -0600

From:  "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT,

     SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY"  DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



From: Dick Heaberlin, dh12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]swt.edu

   English Department

   Southwest Texas State University

   San Marcos, Texas 78666 ll

Subject: All of y'all guys' comments



I'm from Southeast Texas-- Orange, Texas--cajun country,

where there are bukuz of us who, in the fifties, used

_ Y'all_ for the plural, and some few who used

_all of you_ for the plural. Still fewer were

occasionally heard to say _all of y'all_ and

_all of y'all's_. I occasionally here it hear in

central Texas, and I did once hear _all of Y'all guys'_

--a triple plural possessive.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 16:07:01 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: arabic phonetics



Thanks everyone for the citations, bibliographic information, the

complete chart (Alice Faber!), the soothing words, and so on.



There is an Arabic speaker and a Catalan speaker in my Linguistic Analysis

and Theory class. I wanted the class to have those inventories as well

as (Amer)English--something comparable to the charts for the consonants

and the vowels in OH State Lang Files--our textbook.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 20:14:47 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Query: Writing Centers an...



Wayne Glowka wrote that readers would probably prefer letters addressed to

him. Personally, I would like to see the responses, since our dean seems to

have the same ideas as his.



Bill smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 20:23:55 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Textbook



Can anyone recommend a textbook for an "Introduction to Language" course for

linguistically naive masters-level early childhood students? Piedmont

College has just started offering graduate courses, and I want to jump on the

bandwagon, but I need a good textbook. I am thinking of something like

Phillip Dale's _Language Development_ or Johanna Destafano's _Language, the

Learner, and the School_, both of which are out of print.



Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 19:25:49 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: poor and pour



Eric Idle (of Monty Python's Flying Circus) pronounces "year"

more or less as /y[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r/. This might be an example of loss of pre-r

vowel distinctions, but I prefer to take it as dissimilation of

/i/ from /y/, since I haven't caught him doing it in other /ir/ words.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 23:45:27 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Tidbits



At the SECOL meeting in Memphis it was noted that eavesdropping was the worst

form of data collection. Nevertheless, I report the results of eavesdropping

there. I overheard an African-American woman, probably from the Chicago

church group that was staying at the hotel, say to her friend, "She's got a

lot of nieces and thing." I asked Michael Montgomery and Walt Wolfram if

 "and thing" was not a Gullah puralizer, and both answered "No." My question

was misstated; Ambrose Gonzales reported that "'n' t'ing" was a Gullah

collectivizer; so "nieces and thing" would mean "nieces and nephews." Of

course, if she really were speaking Gullah, the "and thing" would have been

redundant, since "niece" in Gullah is unmarked for sex ( I was referred to by

a speaker in Colleton county, SC, as my uncle's "niece."

That SECOL meeting included a presentation on the use of the past perfect for

recent past events. Shortly afterwards I returned an item to the local Belks

store. The clerk had to take the sales slip to the office for approval of

the refund. Since there were other itiems on the slip, I asked for it when

she returned. She replied, "I had just tookened it to the office." Aside

from the triple participle, the event referred to occurred only moments

before.

Adding to the spread of superfluous prepositions introducing relative

clauses, Bob Schieffer on Face the Nation (26 June 1994), in referring to the

subject of a book (the name of neither of which I recorded) said, "...on whom

the book [...] was written about." Michael, it isn't just college students

in written assignments.

By the way, Michael, in the ADS Centennial on usage your article uses "they"

with "every student" as antecedent. Is singular "they" now acceptable usage?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Jan 1995 to 25 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 165 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Tidbits

 2. You guys

 3. Bounced Mail (Re: Tidbits)

 4. ADS-L Digest - 24 Jan 1995 to 25 Jan 1995

 5. Reese address (2)

 6. Textbook

 7. Appalachian Idioms

 8. They it is



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Jan 1995 23:13:39 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Tidbits



On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, William H. Smith wrote:



[snip]



  By the way, Michael, in the ADS Centennial on usage your article uses "they"

  with "every student" as antecedent. Is singular "they" now acceptable usage?

 



Now, there's flame-bait if I ever saw it. "now acceptable usage," Indeed!.

We spend a good deal of time telling our students the difference between

"appropriate usage" and "now acceptable usage."

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:10:03 -0600

From:  Gregory D Waltigney  walt0015[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: You guys



Please unsubscribe me!



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 07:32:41 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail (Re: Tidbits)



****************************************************************

When including a previous list posting in something you're sending

to the list, be sure to edit out all references to Words-L in the

headers. Otherwise, your posting will bounce. It's a loop-preventive

built in to the listserv program.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Thu, 26 Jan 1995 04:48:11 -0500

  From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.8a)  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE

 

  The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

  1923 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

  notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

  pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (53 lines) -------------------------

  From: "E.W. Schneider"  [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]comsun.rz.uni-regensburg.de:Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de 

  Date: Thu, 26 Jan 1995 10:45:20 +0100

  Subject: Re: Tidbits

 

  Date:     Wed, 25 Jan 1995 23:13:39 -0800

  From:     THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

  Subject:    Re: Tidbits

 

  On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, William H. Smith wrote:

 

  [snip]

 

   By the way, Michael, in the ADS Centennial on usage your article uses "they"

   with "every student" as antecedent. Is singular "they" now acceptable usage?

  

 

  Now, there's flame-bait if I ever saw it. "now acceptable usage," Indeed!.

  We spend a good deal of time telling our students the difference between

  "appropriate usage" and "now acceptable usage."

  Cheers,

  tlc

 

  Would you mind explaining the difference to me? Frankly, I`m

  surprised; I find this inappropriately prescriptivistic. I teach my students that

  we linguistis should record / describe / analyse / interpret

  whatever linguistic behavior we find, but don`t state authoritatively

  what is "appropriate" or "acceptable". Who is entitled to decide?

  Edgar

 

 

  Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de

  University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

  phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

  fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:18:40 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 24 Jan 1995 to 25 Jan 1995



Is it ok to use 'they' to refer to singular indefinite NP's? Yes. See

WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 08:26:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: Reese address



Does anyone have an email address for J. Robert Reese?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 09:24:51 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Textbook



 Can anyone recommend a textbook for an "Introduction to Language" course for

 linguistically naive masters-level early childhood students? Piedmont

 College has just started offering graduate courses, and I want to jump on the

 bandwagon, but I need a good textbook. I am thinking of something like

 Phillip Dale's _Language Development_ or Johanna Destafano's _Language, the

 Learner, and the School_, both of which are out of print.

 

 Bill Smith

 Piedmont College

 wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



Stephen Pinker's _The Language Instinct_ is now out in paper ($14). I'm

going to try it for a 4 week summer course, along with Gradddol, CHeshire,

and Swann, _Describing Language_. Probably too ambitious, but we'll see.



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:54:22 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Reese address



I don't have such an address, but if anyone has one, I'd like to have it,

too. Thanks. Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 14:54:22 -0600

From:  Cassandra L Cartwright  CLC6960[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Appalachian Idioms



I have been given your number as a possible source of information regarding

linguistic research into Appalachian dialect and idioms. Any information that

you could give me would be helpful.Thanks



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 20:16:28 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: They it is



"By the way, Michael, in the ADS Centennial on usage your article uses "they"

with "every student" as antecedent. Is singular "they" now acceptable

usage?"



Please turn to the nice *Index* in the ADS Centennial; look up *they*; turn

to page 174, and they's your answer. - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1995 to 26 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 350 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Year, ir and i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]

 2. They it is (2)

 3. TV & dialect

 4. TV and dialect (5)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 11:38:45 +0000

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Year, ir and i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]



On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:



  Eric Idle (of Monty Python's Flying Circus) pronounces "year"

  more or less as /y[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r/. This might be an example of loss of pre-r

  vowel distinctions, but I prefer to take it as dissimilation of

  /i/ from /y/, since I haven't caught him doing it in other /ir/ words.

 

I can't remember precisely, but I hadn't noticed Eric Idle pronouncing

/r/ in year, unless it was before a following vowel, but yes, "year" is

the least stable of the /i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ (=ir) set in Engalnd. But I also hear many

other i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]

words becoming e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/e:, (a different vowel from that in the case of

"year") such as career, and "ear" becoming the same as

"air". I've heard this from otherwise RP newsreaders.



New Zealand has mainly lost the i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]~e[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]

distinction, and other accents have have been losing i[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] in different ways



From what people have said as yet, the phenomenon with /ur/ in the USA

Status: R



seems to focus on areas which were at some time r-less.



Maik Gibson

University of Reading, UK



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:03:14 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: They it is



Speaking of "they," I was trying to remember which pronoun occurred in the

chorus of this CW song from the late fifties (early sixties):



Waterloo, I love you.

Waterloo, whachya gonna do?

Everybody has ____ day,

Everybody has to say,

Everybody's gonna meet ______ Waterloo.



Or something like that.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:26:58 -0600

From:  "Jeffrey H. Allen AXIS CONTRACT"  jhaaxis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLATE.TID.CAT.COM.LOCAL 

Subject: TV & dialect



I forgot to add a couple of references at the bottom of my last message. Here

they are:



ALLEN, Jeff. 1992. Sainte-Lucie: description sociolinguistique d'une i^le

   antillaise. Mai^trise/MA thesis. Universite' Lyon 2.



ALLEN, Jeff. 1994. Sainte-Lucie: relexification, de'cre'olisation, recre'olisa   on, ou adlexification. Diplo^me d'Etudes Approndies/MPhil thesis.

   Universite' Lyon 2.



RANSAU, Jacques. 1994. Etude des emprunts anglais dans le cre'ole a` base

   lexicale francaise de Trinidad. Diplo^me d'Etudes Approfondies/MPhil

   thesis. Universite' des Antilles-Guyane, Martinique.



Sorry about the misspelling of APPROFONDIES in the second entry for ALLEN above.

I can't edit text once I get to a new line with this software, or at least I

haven't discovered a way to do it over the last week since we had the system

installed.



Jeff



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Jan 1995 18:12:30 -0600

From:  "Jeffrey H. Allen AXIS CONTRACT"  jhaaxis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLATE.TID.CAT.COM.LOCAL 

Subject: TV and dialect



Sorry to take some time getting back to some replies on my comments on TV and

dialects that came over the net a couple of days ago.



Four people made comments on my statements regarding loanwords in the

Caribbean creoles, Cajun French, and Gullah. These people were Tim Frazer, MaikGibson, Peter Patrick, and Mike Picone. My message was inspired by Tim F's

message on TV and it's influence on dialects.



In response to Tim's reply, I wouldn't say that there is an NBC Handbook of

Pronunciation, but the national (ABC, CBS, NBC) and international (CNN) channels

do have a certain kind influence over all regional dialects in the US with

regard to uncommon words (especially place names) that are used almost

exclusively on such channels. After having spent 5 years in Europe, I came

back to the States surprised to find that the local news channels really do

cover local news and hardly go beyond that. My wife was astonished that she

could never find much about anything in the world until we got cable TV. As

certain place names (Rwanda for example) are pretty much pronounced more or

less on the national and international channels by the same people, there may

be a tendency for those people living in the States and who watch the news on

these channels to adopt the pronunciation of this world with a labialized

central approximant [Rw] rather than producing a form that conforms more

appropriately to the phonotactics of their regional dialect [Ruw] or [REw]

(the E being a schwa) for example. This is highly debatable, but I think that

the national and international news channels do provide some lexical items

that can have a minor phonetic effect on the regional dialect. I emphasize

phonetic here and not phonological as the influence may not spread to other

established words in the English variety spoken in the area; the phonetic

influence remains with the loanwords. I believe this is also a response to

Maik's reply.



Peter brought up the idea that face-to-face contact would have a higher

percentage of influence than TV in such contexts. With respect to the very

specific lexical items (ie place names) that would come over the channels, the

probability of someone using these words in everyday conversations would be

low, but the knowledge of the pronunciation would have been gathered from the

news media that treats international news. In the case where people do use

such words in discussions, I would speculate that these could either be (1) an

initiation to the pronunciation of the word; or (2) a reinforcement of the

pronunciation of the word as it has already been introduced on TV. To what

point this "web of inroads" (Mike Picone's statement) could be distinguished

between face-to-face contact and TV, and then be measured, I cannot answer

that question. All I can say is that there may be some influence, specifically

lexical with some phonetic input, that comes from national and international

mass media which may not be transmitted on a more local level either by the

media or by personal contact.



Peter also mentioned that in the contexts mentioned (St. Lucia in the Caribbean,

Sea Island Gullah off the coast of Georgia, and Louisiana Cajun) that the

speakers of the varieties are in daily contact with English speakers. I can

speak for both St. Lucia and Dominica in the Caribbean as my research over the

last few years have centered around them. In the capital cities of St. Luciad Dominica, Castries and Roseau respectively, it is true that the use of English

is higher than that of the outlying regions in the countryside. Parents are

using more English in the home, but the the children are not a homogeneous

group at school. I discussed in my Mai^trise/MA thesis a few years ago due to

a statement that in Castries the children that arrive at school are either (1)

competent in the local variety of St. Lucian English; (2) incapable of speaking

in English at all; or (3) speak a mixed up variety of French Creole and English

varieties (David Frank, personal communication May 22, 1992). This is in the

capital of the country and David Frank has worked there for nearly 10 years on

linguistic issues. French Creole is actively used in the majority of rural

contexts in St. Lucia and even more so in Dominica with its enclaves of

communities that speak French Creole more than English at times. I was

surprised to discover this in interviews with Dominicans and St. Lucians in

England a couple of years of ago for doctoral research.



As for the influence of American English on these two islands, there are some

tourists, but not as many Americans as Europeans. However, American soap

operas and TV shows bombard the homes of St. Lucians and Dominicans as my

informants told me, and by this the islanders take the American terms more than

British variants. The example I had was of TV that is used on both of these

islands and in Trinidad. TV is pronounced [tivi] which may be either a direct

or indirect Americanism as my experience with British speakers, those being

relatives, colleagues and friends, is that [tElE] is more widespread among the

older generations and [tivi] among the younger ones. Can this be a case of

an American term infiltrating British culture as Maik Gibson replied? I'm not

sure, but it would be good to investigate. If this is so, then TV can have an

effect, though small, on speakers of St. Lucian and Dominican French Creoles as

the British variant more popular for TV would have been [tEle] up through

St. Lucian and Dominican independence in 1979 and 1978 respectively. I would

think that American TV program(me)s had a substantial increase in broadcasting

to the islands in the 70s,80s and 90s. This does not explain significant

changes in language, but it may address small issues of influence on dialects.



Lastly, I would like to address Mike Picone's well discussed point of Cajun F  French decline in Louisiana. I believe that his thoughts are deal with a lot

of the complex issues involved here. Although it may be difficult to say that

English on TV has had much of an influence on the French Cajun/Creole speakers

of the region, I believe that mass media for the promotion of French has been

influential. The organization CODOFIL (sorry I can't remember what this

acronym stands for as I don't have any of my research documentation here at

work) has done a lot for the promotion of French in Louisiana over the past 10

to 20 years. However, it is important to note that the French that has been

promoted is mainly the variety that is spoken in Europe (France, Belgian) and

in Canada. I realize that there are subvariety issues at play here, but I

don't want to go into that here. CODOFIL brought over language teachers and

assistants from these foreign countries to Louisiana to re-integrate the French

influence into the region. The problem was that there is a signifcant difference, between these Standard French varieties and that of Cajun French and French

Creole, and this is at phonological and morphosyntactic levels. The classic

example is the child who comes home from school where she is learning French to

tell her grandmother that the window is a "fene^tre" while her Cajun or Creole

French speaking grandmother (who thinks that she herself speaks standard French)

says that this is not true because the window is a "chassis" (I may be a little

off on the form of this word as again I don't have any of my reference books &

articles here at work). It is true that this is at a face-to-face level, but

CODOFIL did do some mass media work, especially on the radio, and maybe on TV.

In such a case, the influence, whether positive or negative, of Standard French

efforts made by CODOFIL on the Cajun and Creole French speaking region did

happen at some level through the mass media. Again, to what extent this can be

measured with respect to personal contact, I don't know.



I don't have answers to all of your thoughtful responses, but it has given me

some ideas to think about myself with regard to the influence of TV on dialects.

Any other comments?



Jeff Allen

CTE Trainer - Caterpillar Inc.

allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com  OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 08:40:11 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



A couple of quick comments on CODOFIL (Council for the Development of

French in Louisiana, founded in 1968) by way of reaction to Jeffrey Allen's

posting. I'm not as familiar with what CODOFIL has done in the area of

mass media as I am in the area of education and promoting student exchanges

with Francophone countries. Results are mixed. I visited one family in

Louisiana who had hit it off so well with the family of their French exchange

student, that they would vacation together in France almost every year.

The father of this Louisiana family was, consequently, one of the very few

Cajuns I have ever spoken to who was capable of dialect shifting. He could

emulate the so-called `metropolitan' code, and did so with me, but to the

disgust of my lowly Cajun friend who accompanied me to this interview and

and, while in admiration, felt he was putting on airs. So in this one case,

at least, a CODOFIL program has had profound linguistic impact. But such

cases are very rare. Concerning education, I once spent an entire day

sitting in on French immersion classes at Cecilia Elementary School. The

teachers were from France, Belgium and Quebec with one Cajun teacher's aide.

All, however, had attended some kind of training to become aware of local

dialectal distinctions. There was never any attempt to correct anyone's

French in the classroom, and on occasion local vocabulary was injected

into the presentation. However, to understand what is going on,

even while greatly appreciating the educational benefit to the students,

one must be aware of the artifiality of this venture. Very few of the

students come from homes where French is spoken at all anymore. Probably

for none of them did this constitute a reinforcement of a maternal language.

The French the kids spoke in class revealed that their active competence was

far from fluent, though passive competence was very great. Deviations in usage

made by students were related more to linguistic interference from English

than from local dialectal intrusions. The code they are developing would

make a fascinating study, but it is not Cajun French, and there is precious

little hope that this kind of thing will ever revive French in Louisiana.



As for French in the media, there are quite a few radio stations that

broadcast partly or completely in Cajun French. The renaissance of Cajun

music has helped much in this regard. A few news summaries and an early

morning Catholic devotional in Cajun French can be found on TV. How the

announcers deal with vocabulary needs is a very interesting study, but

one that would seem to show far more intrasentential lexical code-switching

to English than use of native neologisms or borrowings from other dialects

of French. For more on this, see my just-published article "Lexicogenesis

and language vitality" in WORD, Dec. 1994.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:56:08 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Regarding the discussion Jeff Allen started concerning loanwords in

Gullah and other New World creoles and in Cajun French, I wondered if

the French loan /tele/ for "television" isn't from modern Standard French,

which the older generation would use where their children, in contrast,

are using English. /tele/ is indeed StFr.

   I thought Jeff's reply was highly interesting. By the way, I am

an Acadianist working in Louisiana some part of each summer while

living out-of-state. CODOFIL is the Council for the Development of

French in Louisiana and as Jeff rightly pointed out, has spearheaded

the introduction of French in the schools since about 1968--including a

bilingual elementary school that's up and running, with people fighting

to get their kids in. However, the practice of teaching StFr has not

contributed to the preservation of Cajun French; perhaps the contrary.

   I wish I had a copy of your original comments, Jeff (I wasn't

subscribed then); any possibility of getting it?

  PS. I'm finishing (hopefully in 1995) a short-form dialect atlas

of Cajun French, hoping to broadly outline isogloss-lines with about

100 maps, describing S. Louisiana between Alexandria (to the north),

with lines drawn down to the Gulf to the east and west border of LA.

  Does anyone have an idea of software I can get to print my

dialect maps, with marginal notes on the side?

                Cathy Bodin, now in Maryland



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:32:24 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: They it is



On Fri, 27 Jan 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



  Speaking of "they," I was trying to remember which pronoun occurred in the

  chorus of this CW song from the late fifties (early sixties):

 

  Waterloo, I love you.

  Waterloo, whachya gonna do?

  Everybody has ____ day,

  Everybody has to say,

  Everybody's gonna meet ______ Waterloo.

 

  Or something like that.

I remember:



WAterloo, Waterloo,

When will you

Meet your waterloo?

Everybody has their day,

Everbody ???????? (rhyme with day)

Everybody's got to meet their Waterloo.



I didn't think you were as old as I, Wayne.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 16:53:56 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Responding to Jeff's interesting commentary on TV: when I mentioned the

NBC Handbook on Pronunciation, I was referring to the publication which

was used by the network to train radio speakers: The __NBC Handbook of

Pronunciation___ compiled by james F. Bender (New York: 1943, 1951, 1964).

Tom Donahue and William Van Riper both argue that this book, along

with John Kenyon's work on pronunciation (including Webster's Second

International) led to the spread of the rhotic Inland Northern dialect in

radio and in films. (Old movie buffs will remember the r-less dialects

in thirties movies. I have a tape of a 30s "Shadow" broadcast which is

full of r-lessness).



I'd like to get another thread going on the shift from a pseudo-British

or upper-class NY dialect to Inland NOrthern around the time of WWII in

the media, but that's too great a digression from where we are.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:23:31 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: TV and dialect



Welcome to ADS-L, Cathy!



Mike Picone



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Jan 1995 to 27 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 7 messages totalling 200 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. names

 2. message on TV and dialect influence in Louisiana (fwd)

 3. correction on TV & dialect discussion

 4. Please forgive - can't sign off (2)

 5. GURT 1995 - Preregistration notice

 6. Boston accent



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 12:26:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: names



NAMES, the Journal of the American Name Society, invites

manuscripts on names and their roles in society. NAMES

publishes articles and notes of general, regional and theoretical

interest as well as the results of specialized research in

onomastics. Appropriate studies may deal with aspects of personal

names, place names, names in literature or specialized names and

naming, in historical or contemporary contexts. NAMES is a fully-

refereed journal, now in its 42nd year of continuous publication.



Articles appearing in recent issues include:

Games with Names in Midnight's Children'

Objectional Sport Team Designations

Male College Nicknames in the 1950s

Naming Patterns of Recent Immigrants to Israel

Reading the 'Deep Talk' of Literary Names and Naming

The In-House Honorifics of Lewis and Clark

Changing Names on Peruvian Trucks



Requests for further information, for sample copies of NAMES,

books for review and manuscripts for consideration (three

copies of articles, one copy of notes) should be sent to



Edward Callary, Editor, NAMES

English Department, Northern Illinois University

DeKalb Il 60115



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 15:33:14 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: message on TV and dialect influence in Louisiana (fwd)



Just thought that you all would be interested in this reply to me by

Kevin Rottet who is finishing up his PhD at Indiana University on Cajun

French. He insights are quite helpful for this TV & dialect discussion.



Jeff Allen

allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com  OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for including me in the discussion--it looks very interesting and

I am not subscribed to the ADS list. I do have a few thoughts where

Louisiana is concerned.



The issue of the influence of TV on Cajun and/or Creole would have been

more meaningful in the 1940s and 1950s than it is today, I think, because

today there would in fact be no way to separate TV influences from

interactive/ conversational influences. This is because the vast majority

of Cajuns today are English dominant and speak English every bit as

fluently as you and I do. English is their language. Cajuns (and

Indians, in the Terrebonne-Lafourche area where I worked) for whom this

is not the case are growing increasingly rare, and are already isolated

cases, exceptions to the rule. The only way TV influence could be shown

today would perhaps be with examples such as those you cite (e.g. exotic

place names like Rwanda).



Regarding the question of Standard French on TV influencing Cajun, I

imagine this is possible, but saw no evidence of it for two reasons: 1)

most TV in French is available in and around Lafayette, which is not

where I was doing my work. In Terrebonne-Lafourche there is no more

French on TV than there is here, unless one gets cable. 2) Even those

Cajuns who have cable often do not watch TV in French because they claim

not to be able to understand it. I do not see that a speech form which is

largely unintelligible to the masses would have any significant effect on

local dialects--it is only if there is intelligibility that there could

be any influence.



There is, certainly, some Standard French influence, but this comes via

the schools (many kids take French in school for a year or two) and via

the busloads of French and Canadian tourists that are in Louisiana all

the time.



So, while I don't see TV influencing Cajun speech today (Cajun French or

English), it is certain that the arrival of anglophone TV in remote areas

of Louisiana in the 40s contributed to the language shift. This claim has

been made in many minority communities, and a lot of foreigners, as you

have heard too, I'm sure, claim to have learned most of their English

from TV. But this is a somewhat different issue than the one being

discussed above, since the ADS discussion seems interested primarily in

native speakers of some dialect being influenced by the standard dialect

via TV.



I would be interested to hear of some more concrete examples of influence

from TV--specific words that someone actually noted that could only have

been gotten from TV. For rare words such as Rwanda, it would not surprise

me at all if your claim is correct. I have a similar anecdote; a friend

of mine from Michigan whose parents are from Tennessee, has no Tennessee

accent of his own, but speaks perfectly good Michigan-ese, EXCEPT in some

rare words that he has probably never heard anyone but his parents say.

Two examples come to mind, 'naked' and 'bowels'. It seems to me, than,

that words that people have only heard on TV would likewise have a "TV"

pronunciation; but I have a hard time imagining how many words we're

talking about, except exotic places or high-tech technological terms. If

you have some more eamples, I'd be very interested.



By the way, I'd be interested in seeing Mike Picone's contribution, but I

don't think you sent me that one (or maybe I accidentally deleted it

without reading it). If you would forward that I'd appreciate it.



Thanks, and keep in touch!

Kevin Rottet



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 15:48:44 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: correction on TV & dialect discussion



I seem to have made a slight phonetic error in my comment on the word TV

as it is used in Britain. I believe that I said that it was [tEle] which

is actually incorrect; it is [tEli]. Again, E stands for the front

mid-open vowel.



Jeff Allen

allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:03:20 -0800

From:  Barbara Snyder  brsnyder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Please forgive - can't sign off



Hello -



I am trying to sign off this list. I have sent messages to the LISTSERV

with either no results or messages in return that there is something

wrong with the address. I have tried both UNSUBSCRIBE and SIGNOFF, to no

avail.



Can someone please tell me EXACTLY where to direct my request, and

EXACTLY what wording it should include?



Again, I apologize for sending this to the whole list, but can't see an

alternative!



Thanks very much -- Barbara Snyder



*********************************************************************

*                                  *

*              Barbara Snyder             *

*             brsnyder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com           *

*                                  *

*********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 17:18:17 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT 1995 - Preregistration notice



      GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY ROUND TABLE

            GURT 1995

Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers:

Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic and Sociolinguistic Aspects



         MARCH 6 - 11, 1995



   PRE-REGISTRATION DEADLINE February 4, 1995

      (on-site rates apply thereafter)



For more information contact Carolyn A. Straehle, GURT '95

Coordinator, Georgetown University School of Languages and

Linguistics, 303 Intercultural Center, Washington, DC

20057-1067

email: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

tel: 202/687-5726

fax: 202/687-5712



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 16:13:27 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Boston accent



I'm looking for sources (written or recorded) on contemporary Boston

speech, for use by a fiction writer. The fictitious speakers are of

Irish ancestry; they are probably fairly low-level professional

criminals, whose work involves physical intimidation.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Jan 1995 16:30:43 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Please forgive - can't sign off



Welcome to Hotel California. You can check in, but you can never check out.



-- Jim

(Excuse the rathole, but I'm on my second glass of a great Porter from a local

microbrewery and am encountering some strange associations. Best of luck in

trying to leave this conference. I find myself unable to.)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Jan 1995 to 28 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 119 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Boston accent

 2. 2 pl

 3. Tidbits

 4. misc (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Jan 1995 10:05:42 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Boston accent



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Have your fiction writer listen to Car Talk on PBS radio Saturday mornings!



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Jan 1995 15:15:30 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: 2 pl



This isn't "2pl", but it IS "pl"!

I was fascinated to see in Dick Heaberlin's reply about "y'all"

that he pluralizes /buku/ + /-z/. I've heard folks from Louisiana and

SE Texas use /buku/ in English as a quantifier much as he does:

    "there are buku(z) of us"

but I never noticed the inflection with plural /-z/ before-- is this a

regular and usual thing in, what I guess we'd have to call, Cajun

English?

    I've done a couple of studies of pluralization in Jamaican

Creole, where mesolectal speakers (maybe everyone, in fact) often use

English /-z/ and less often post-nominal /-dem/, and very occasionally

even combine them in a double plural. So I'd be interested to know

from you Cajun observers and others about this mixing of markjers from

different systems... Is it restricted to pre-vocalic environments

where, eg, /buku [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]v [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s/ would sound odd?

    --peter



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Jan 1995 15:31:02 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Tidbits



Following up on William Smith's remarks about "and thing":

Besides Gullah, 'an ting' is widely found throughout the English-

speaking Caribbean (though not, as he pointed out, as a pluralizer).

It's often lumped together with 'an dem', while the latter is often

lumped in with post-nominal '-dem' (which in turn is often spoken of

in the same breath as PRE-nominal deictic 'dem'!), but in fact they

are all quite distinct in use and meaning.

    'an ting' is the least-often mentioned and the broadest in

use, I think, so generalized that it may even be possible now for some

speakers to use it in the same way as associative 'an dem':

    'mieri an dem' Mary and (her usual associates: family,

            friends, whoever it may be)

'an ting' means something very general like "and so on, and other

related topics, and things of that sort". So I'd think that "nieces

and thing" would be "nieces and other types of relatives", where

"nieces an dem" would be "nieces and (other specific relatives,

spouses, etc. of the nieces)". The distinction is so subtle it could

be easily overwhelmed. Both of them assume hearer knowledge of a

social network.

    Any chance your (WS's) speaker had a West Indian background?

Numerically, that might be more likely than a Gullah one, though

either would give you the usage. I assume it isn't common among US

African-Americans in general (unless they got it from creole speakers)--

is that true?!

    --plp

PS. Btw, Valerie Youssef has an article examining use of 'an ting' by

Trinidadians in medical interviews, but I can't find the ref. just now.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Jan 1995 16:01:47 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: misc



Just logged on after an absence, hence the obsolete nature of some of the

following:



I (35, white female, Atlanta-born) use y'all, you-all, and you guys. I

suspect that y'all/you-all is a case of style-shifting. I use both you

guys and y'all with my students, I've noticed, so that could be an age

thing. I find myself increasingly using "gal" in sentences like "Who was

that gal he was with?" Has a slightly "hick" ring to my ear, but seems

like a good way to fill in the gap in the paradigm man/woman boy/girl/ guy/?

and avoids that offensive "girl" for adults I still hear all the time.



My mom was born in rural West Georgia, but she has /-r/. Still she makes

the 3-way distinction merry with /E/, marry with /ae/ (I have these) and

Mary with /e/ but the last does emphasize the first syllable inordinately

(CVCV)



Is "an dem" like the "mamanem" the local color columnists use?



Example of a pretty exotic place name in the media affecting pronunciation:

remember when the probe of what was formerly "your anus" changed the name

to the less taboo /yur[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s/?



Finally, in a certain style marked for flippant, I would always say

bookoos with the -s, never without, e.g. "he's got bookoos OF money"



Oh yeah, I also say "what kind of coke do you want?"



Glad to be back, Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Jan 1995 16:39:12 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: misc



Oops, I've been out of the loop so long I forgot my own address:



ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.cc.uga.edu



ignore the one on the previous message, and this one too if you choose



Ellen JOhnson



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Jan 1995 to 29 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 20 messages totalling 411 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "and them" (8)

 2. Cajun: mixing markers

 3. Boston accent (5)

 4. /buku/ (2)

 5. "What kind of coke do you want?"

 6. need for software

 7. Tidbits

 8. "bookoo"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 00:04:45 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: "and them"



Several posters on yesterday's ADS-L digest mentioned non-specific ??? words

(??? not to call them question words, but because I'm not at all sure what

word class to put these in) "and dem" and "mamanem" (which I assume, Ellen, is

"mom an' 'em"). Peter Patrick related the "and dem" form to something in

Jamaican or perhaps more general Caribbean creole. But I can't help thinking

of a fairly common locution in Texas some 15-20 years ago (my last opportunity

for direct observation), which I think is probably related to Ellen's

"mamanem"--"and them", typically in "How's your Mom and them?", used quite

unselfconsciously by native Texas (Anglo) classmates of mine.



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 02:03:50 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: "and them"



In reference to "mamanem". I have discussed its use in some African American

speech communities, and it seems to me that the -nem part can be used to reflect

a group *mamanem don't like Charles* would mean something like a particular

part of the family doesn't like Charles. Another way that -nem was used was

to indicate a location (we're going over to Jimmynem's) meaning something like

I'm going over to my cousin Jimmy's house. Our family was from Central Florida

and many of the older member's speech was influenced by Gullah speaking

relatives.



BHHudson



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 08:45:14 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "and them"



Just a note: the speakers I know who say "mananem" are saying a

contracted version of "mamma and them" at least as often as they are saying a

contracted version of "mom and them."



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 10:40:45 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Cajun: mixing markers



In quick reply to Peter Patrick's comments:



 I was fascinated to see in Dick Heaberlin's reply ...

 that he pluralizes /buku/ + /-z/. ...

     "there are buku(z) of us"

 I never noticed the inflection with plural /-z/ before-- is this a

 regular and usual thing in, what I guess we'd have to call, Cajun

 English?

     I've done a couple of studies of pluralization in Jamaican

 Creole, where mesolectal speakers (maybe everyone, in fact) often use

 English /-z/ and less often post-nominal /-dem/, and very occasionally

 even combine them in a double plural. So I'd be interested to know

 from you Cajun observers and others about this mixing of markers from

different systems...

     --peter



When I'm with Cajuns, I avoid use of English as much as possible, so my

observations on Cajun English are not going to be as well informed as they

would for somebody who made this the object of study. For what it's worth,

however, I don't recall hearing a lot of pluralized _beaucoup_. It wouldn't

go against the grain, though, since other Cajun French lexical elements can

receive English inflection. For verbs, however, it appears that Eng. inflection

is added to an infinitival Fr. stem: He's out fouiller-ing with his truck.

You fouiller-ed with them no-goods all day yesterday. (fouiller `mess around,

fool around, tinker with', both examples come from Cheramie & Gill "Lexical

choice in Cajun Vernacular English" in _Cajun Vernacular English_, Ann Martin

Scott (ed.), 1992). The opposite tends not to be true. When English

lexical items are inserted into French discourse (it happens very frequently)

they tend to be stripped of all inflection, both English and French. I touch

on this in the article I mentioned earlier (in WORD, Dec. 1994) and develop

it further in a CLS-30 paper that will appear very soon in their proceedings

and also in a LAVIS-II paper, whenever that finally makes it into print,

in case anybody is interested. So use of double plural in code-mixing when

French is the matrix language is relatively infrequent: Il voit les TRUCK.

Ils vont donner les FOOD STAMP. Rarer still is inflection on an Eng. verb

stem: Il a RETIRE. J'ai DRIVE en ville.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 11:25:54 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "and them"



Alice Faber mentioned the Texas locution "mom an' 'em". It would be

"mom an' nem" with regressive assimilation of 'th-'. Yes, she's not

making it up. The "them"/"nem" would be semi-definite. DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 15:08:50 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: "and them"



On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Alice Faber mentioned the Texas locution "mom an' 'em". It would be

  "mom an' nem" with regressive assimilation of 'th-'. Yes, she's not

  making it up. The "them"/"nem" would be semi-definite. DMLance



Every year in the local (Austin Texas) Gridiron Show, in which

journalists spoof Texas politicians, the Ann Richards character would

open her speech in a flawlessly Richardsian manner: "Hah! (pause) Haow yew?

(pause) Haow's y'mom en' nem?"



This always got a laugh because it's such classic Texas-ese. I've picked

up the locution myself--it's oddly handy.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 16:32:21 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "and them"



 On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:

 

   Alice Faber mentioned the Texas locution "mom an' 'em". It would be

   "mom an' nem" with regressive assimilation of 'th-'. Yes, she's not

   making it up. The "them"/"nem" would be semi-definite. DMLance

 

 Every year in the local (Austin Texas) Gridiron Show, in which

 journalists spoof Texas politicians, the Ann Richards character would

 open her speech in a flawlessly Richardsian manner: "Hah! (pause) Haow yew?

 (pause) Haow's y'mom en' nem?"

 

 This always got a laugh because it's such classic Texas-ese. I've picked

 up the locution myself--it's oddly handy.

 

 Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



Oddly handy!? T'ain't nothin' odd about it a-tall. I use it every day.

Thought ever-body did.



With caliche still under my nails and prickly pear still in my socks,







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 17:40:35 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "and them"



The Texan "mamanem" does seem to be quite similar to the creole one.

It may be more restricted, though. How productive is it? or is it

generally found in "mamanem"?

    The Jamaican Creole one has been noticed because it's a

mediating construction which coexists with another not generally

possible in English dialects (as far as I know-- would be interested

to hear exceptions). You can productively say both "[Name] an dem" and

"[Name]-dem", where in English you don't seem to get "Mary-them came

over" without a conjunction. (Bill Stewart, I think, called this an

'associative plural' years ago.) This is of course parallel to the

usual pluralization strategy for non-personal nouns: "di man-dem". In

Caribbean creole substrate W. African languages you also get plurals

derived from 3rd-person-pl. pronouns affixed to both common and proper

nouns, eg Yoruba: "awon-Taiwo", meaning "Taiwo and his (family,

friends, etc.)", as John Holm and others have noted in making the

substrate case for Atlantic creoles. The JC case with conjunction is

then a typical instance of having a construction which matches the

superstrate on the surface, but preserves substrate-grammar ties too.

    Which makes it interesting if "-nem" is productive in AAVE,

because it too could be just phonologically derived from "and them"

after a preceding vowel, as Don Lance noted-- but on the other hand it

looks a lot like the -dem suffix! My guess would be that it's not

productive, even lexicalized, as a creole/decreolized remnant, but I

don't know the facts and would be happy to hear more.



(See John Holm's discussion in his 'Pidgins & Creoles, Vol. I', and

for JC a (morpho-)syntactic sketch I've written for an upcoming book

"Comparative Creole Syntax", ed. by Holm, and a couple papers I gave

at NWAV '93 and SCL '94 on number-marking in JC, not out yet.)

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:02:03 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



Dan,

    Martha Laferriere had an article in Language in 1979

("Ethnicity in Phon'l Variation & Change") which contrasted Boston

Irish, Jewish and Italian speech for low vowels. She looked at

different generations and gave a nice picture of social change and why

the Irish, as I recall, kept the least prestigious accent longest.

Also, is it "American Tongues" (the video) that has a nice interview

with a young Boston Irish guy? seemed like a good example to me, but I

don't know much about Boston...

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:58:22 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: /buku/



Dear Peter,

   /buku/ is definitely not Cajun English; I have never heard it from

a French speaker of any social dialect but instead from Anglos (such as

people of Cajun extraction who speak English) or transplants who move to

the fringe of the dialect area, (e.g., my aunt in Texas). Cajuns speak

English mostly fluently; look for non-fluent speakers in the 65-and-over

age group. Good luck finding them.   --- Cathy Bodin.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:06:30 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: "What kind of coke do you want?"



Re: Ellen's "what kind of coke do you want?" I was wondering if anyone

has established the isogloss on "coke"(/other generics)/"soda?"

    My students tell me that Pittsburg uses the type "what kind of

coke do you want?" In Louisiana, outside the metropolitan areas (New

Orleans, Baton Rouge), you say, "do you want a coke OR an orange OR a

grape drink OR a sprite," etc. where my Baton Rouge friends ask if you

want a soda. "Soda" was a black, i.e. Afro-American, variant where/when

I grew up; if it was not your group, you didn't use their variant.

    Can anyone establish the geographical coordinates here?--CBodin



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 18:46:26 EST

From:  PS Kuhlman  GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "and them"



  In discussing the "and them" and " 'n them" constructions in American

dialect, Peter L. Patrick notes the similarity to the Jamaican creole

"[Name] an dem" construction. He points out that the construction can

also be used in the singular without the conjunction, "[Name]-dem",

whereas in English you don't seem to get "Mary-them came over" without a

conjunction.

  Linguistics is not my field, but recently I read a book called

"Coming of Age in Mississippi" by Anne Moody in which I saw the use

of a singular name followed by them, e.g. "I looked over at Miss Pearl

them again and saw tears in the corner of Miss Pearl's eyes." In context

the meaning is that she looked at just Miss Pearl and no one else. There

are numerous examples in the book which is the autobiography of an Afro-

American woman who grew up in rural Mississippi in the 11950's and 60's.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:19:28 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: need for software



Folks,

    Thanks for the welcome to the ADS-L.

    Does anyone have an idea of where to find software to allow me

to print my own dialect atlas?

    I need to be able to imput a map (of Louisiana, the Cajun

dialect area), specify geographic points investigated, and add marginalia

of my own--footnotes to the replies gathered in fieldwork, in a columnar

style.

    If anyone is familiar with a type of spreadsheet or other

available software, I'd love to hear of it.

                        --Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:18:35 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:



  Dan,

      Martha Laferriere had an article in Language in 1979

  ("Ethnicity in Phon'l Variation & Change") which contrasted Boston

  Irish, Jewish and Italian speech for low vowels. She looked at

  different generations and gave a nice picture of social change and why

  the Irish, as I recall, kept the least prestigious accent longest.

  Also, is it "American Tongues" (the video) that has a nice interview

  with a young Boston Irish guy? seemed like a good example to me, but I

  don't know much about Boston...

      --plp

 

I dunno if he was Italian or not but he says his accent "drives the women

nuts. They say, 'are you Italian?' and I say 'ya mudda. . . .'



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:00:08 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



On Sun, 29 Jan 1995 BERGDAHL%OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.spcs.umn.edu wrote:



  Have your fiction writer listen to Car Talk on PBS radio Saturday mornings!

 

Thanks. I suggested that; but she hasn't been able to find it in radio

listings for NYC.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 19:28:44 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:



  Dan,

      Martha Laferriere had an article in Language in 1979

  ("Ethnicity in Phon'l Variation & Change") which contrasted Boston

  Irish, Jewish and Italian speech for low vowels. She looked at

  different generations and gave a nice picture of social change and why

  the Irish, as I recall, kept the least prestigious accent longest.



Thanks -- and this brings up another question. This writer's Bostonian

characters use (in drafts I've seen so far) more Irishisms than I hear

from Irish-born residents of the Twin Cities. (Including one musician

with a rural Irish accent the average Dubliner might have trouble

understanding.) She says it's the way the Irish side of her family talks

(NYC Irish, not Boston Irish -- I don't know how much difference this

makes.) And I have the impression that my relatives whose native

language was Yiddish used fewer Yiddish words when speaking English than

the ones who grew up English-speaking. Is there a term for this, and has

it been discussed in print?



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:46:14 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Tidbits



Peter,

As I noted, this was a matter of eavesdropping; I can only guess that she was

with the Chigaco church group, and beyond that I have no idea.

Bill Smith

Piedmont

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 21:56:23 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: /buku/



At 6:58 PM 1/30/95 -0500, Cathy C. Bodin wrote:

    /buku/ is definitely not Cajun English; I have never heard it from

 a French speaker of any social dialect but instead from Anglos (such as

 people of Cajun extraction who speak English) or transplants who move to

 the fringe of the dialect area,



My Cajun husband says the same thing. In fact I have only ever heard

/bukuz/ from my Minnesota-Irish mother.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 22:57:47 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: "bookoo"



Is "beaucoup" Cajun at all? It was in common use in Viet Nam in the sixties,

and I assumed it was just a GI borrowing, like "mama-san",

with no real language interference.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



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Date:  Mon, 30 Jan 1995 23:42:38 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



Re American Tongues. The young man was indeed Italian, and his accent was a

source of embarrassment to his brothers and sisters (who also had South Boston

accents). I use the film in my introduction to sociolinguistics class and the

students always get a kick out of the way the young man justifies his use of

some of the most highly stigmatized forms.



BHhudson



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End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Jan 1995 to 30 Jan 1995

************************************************







There are 18 messages totalling 430 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "What kind of coke do you want?"

 2. "bookoo" (3)

 3. Boston accent (4)

 4. Spamming Santa (2)

 5. Possessive Marker

 6. manuscripts invited

 7. Beaucoup pre-WWII

 8. French Question

 9. hmm.. what's cajun English, then? (3)

 10. 'and them'



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 02:43:11 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "What kind of coke do you want?"



The plotting I've done of soda / pop has shown unique distributions, i.e.,

not like Kurathian distributions. In MO, WI, and MI the isogloss goes

north-south down the middle of the state, with 'pop' to the west of the

line. I didn't have enough dope on 'coke' to find isoglosses. KC is

'pop' territory and StL is 'soda'. And 'soda pop', in some tabulating I did

about fifteen years ago, occurs down the middle along the soda / pop

isogloss. Some day I'll dig out the old qtnrs and tabulate some more.

     DMLance



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Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 03:17:20 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "bookoo"



'beaucoup' as an American term goes back to WW2, in my memory.

                               DMLance



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Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 03:19:41 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



Yes, Phil the Italian was from the North End in "American Tongues," but

there were also interviews with speakers from South Boston (this would've

been the Irish speaker) and from Dorchester. In the original version,

about 65 minutes in length, there were more Bostonians, the whole set

of speakers that are shown in the checkerboard montage near the end. The

55-minute version cut out the 'brahmin' speakers, whose dulcet tones can

be distinguished in that final montage. Anyone looking for "the" Boston

accent is not gonna find it.

              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:57:36 +0800

From:  Frank Stevenson  t22001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CC.NTNU.EDU.TW 

Subject: Re: Spamming Santa



  sorry folks, but "spamming" =?       fws



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:02:24 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



 On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:

 

   Dan,

       Martha Laferriere had an article in Language in 1979

   ("Ethnicity in Phon'l Variation & Change") which contrasted Boston

   Irish, Jewish and Italian speech for low vowels. She looked at

   different generations and gave a nice picture of social change and why

   the Irish, as I recall, kept the least prestigious accent longest.

   Also, is it "American Tongues" (the video) that has a nice interview

   with a young Boston Irish guy? seemed like a good example to me, but I

   don't know much about Boston...

       --plp

  

 I dunno if he was Italian or not but he says his accent "drives the women

 nuts. They say, 'are you Italian?' and I say 'ya mudda. . . .'

 

 Tim



That guy outrages the females in my classes. They do everything but hiss.

My wife hollered, "Who does that jerk think he is?"







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:05:16 EST

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "bookoo"



 Is "beaucoup" Cajun at all? It was in common use in Viet Nam in the sixties,

 and I assumed it was just a GI borrowing, like "mama-san",

 with no real language interference.

 Bill Smith

 Piedmont College

 wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



I had a roommate in 1970 who had lived in Arizona and Michigan. He said

bookoo for everything. I always assumed that he learned the expresson in

the Army while stationed in Korea for three years.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 07:30:49 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Spamming Santa



    sorry folks, but "spamming" =?       fws

                  sending multiple copies of unsolicited

                  e-mail.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 11:32:54 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Possessive Marker



The various items of second person and possessives an ting prompts a query.



I have been encountering a phenomenon from some shirttail relatives who

grew up in Colorado. When speaking of their children's families or

brother's families, they will use a Proper Noun + Possessive and delete

the common noun:



  Merle's were down for Christmas (vs Merle's _family_ came for Christmas)



  John's came over to play bridge (vs John and his wife Susie cam over)





Is this feature more widely spread, or is it a family habit?

Thanks,

Tom Clark



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Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 13:40:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: manuscripts invited



NAMES, the Journal of the American Name Society, invites

manuscripts on names and their roles in society. NAMES

publishes articles and notes of general, regional and theoretical

interest as well as the results of specialized research in

onomastics. Appropriate studies may deal with aspects of personal

names, place names, names in literature or specialized names and

naming, in historical or contemporary contexts. NAMES is a fully-

refereed journal, now in its 42nd year of continuous publication.



Articles appearing in recent issues include:

Games with Names in Midnight's Children'

Objectional Sport Team Designations

Male College Nicknames in the 1950s

Naming Patterns of Recent Immigrants to Israel

Reading the 'Deep Talk' of Literary Names and Naming

The In-House Honorifics of Lewis and Clark

Changing Names on Peruvian Trucks



Requests for further information, sample copies of NAMES,

books for review and manuscripts for consideration (three

copies of articles, one copy of notes) should be sent to



Edward Callary, Editor, NAMES

English Department, Northern Illinois University

DeKalb Il 60115



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:04:32 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:



  Dan,

[snip]

  Also, is it "American Tongues" (the video) that has a nice interview

  with a young Boston Irish guy? seemed like a good example to me, but I

  don't know much about Boston.



I'm almost sure the young lad was from North Boston Italian.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 12:10:55 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: "bookoo"



On Mon, 30 Jan 1995, William H. Smith wrote:



  Is "beaucoup" Cajun at all? It was in common use in Viet Nam in the sixties,



Also in Korea before that. (tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu)



  and I assumed it was just a GI borrowing, like "mama-san",

  with no real language interference.

  Bill Smith

  Piedmont College

  wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 08:53:26 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Beaucoup pre-WWII



    I thought some members of ADS might be interested in early English

   uses of beaucoup/bookoo. All of the following examples are from Peter

   Tamony's files:



    Lansing Warren and Robert A. Donaldson, Compendium of Foreign

   Phrases, 1918. Beaucoup = much, many, good. The major and most

   necessary part of an American's French vocabulary.



    Ware, Passing English. Boko = A huge nose. Corruption of

   beaucoup. Said to be descended from the time of Grimaldi who would

   observe while "joey-ing", C'est beaucoup, tapping his nose. . . .



    Brophy and Partridge, Songs and Slang of the British Soldier,

   1914-1918 (London: 2nd edition, 1930), p. 210. Boko = Tommyese for

   French beaucoup. Also pre- and post-war general slang for nose.



    H. C. Witwer, The Leather Pushers (New York: 1920), p. 55. "She's

   a beaucoup looker all right, but beautiful the same way them marble

   statues is."



    Ibid., p. 3. "Me and Cockeyed Egan was tourin' . . . with a stable

   of battlers, pickin' up beaucoup sugar by havin' 'em fight each other

   over the short routes."



    Gang World (March 1931), p. 20. "Yeah. Listen. There's boocoo

   coke an' opium here, too. If you know anybody in the narcotic squad

   interested in an honest-to-Gawd bargain, fetch them along."



    Underworld Magazine (March 1931), p. 101. "Lemons is the only

   friend I've got in this burg--an' he owes me boocoo jack."



    Variety (June 9, 1931), p. 11. "Newspapers biting their teeth for

   fear the rest of the exhibs follow, which, if they do, will mean a

   tremendous slash in the ad money for the theatres. Figuring the six

   dailies in town, the cut over a period of time runs into beaucoup

   shekels."



    Fraser and Gibbons, Soldier and Sailor Words and Phrases, 1925.

   Beaucoup = Plenty of. The French word was adopted as an everyday

   expression in the War; e.g., "There were beaucoup cigarettes. There

   was beaucoup beer," etc.



    Maitland, 1891. Boko = the nose.



    Mary P. Keeley, "A.E.F. English," American Speech, vol. 5 (June

   1030), p. 382. Bookoo (beaucoup) = Abundance.



    (Song title) Beau Koo Jack. Hughes Panassie, translated by Lyle

   and Eleanor Dowling, Hot Jazz, The Guide to Swing Music (New York: M.

   Witmark and Sons, 1936), p. 301.  And Charles Delaunay, Hot

   Discography (Paris: Hot Jazz, 1938). {From these notes it appears

   that this song was recorded by Earl Hines and His Orchestra on the

   Blue Bird B7040, and Victor V38043 labels; and Louis Armstrong on the

   OK 8680 and Vocalion 3085 labels.



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 15:46:31 -0600

From:  "Jeffrey H. Allen AXIS CONTRACT"  jhaaxis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLATE.TID.CAT.COM.LOCAL 

Subject: French Question



Just wondering how the French Canadians or Swiss French would say "clockwise"

as in the sentence "Turn the key clockwise".



I've been finding "Tourner la cle' en sens d'horloge" in some manuals I've

been asked to revise and am wondering if this is a (1) a literal translation

from English; or (2) a dialect issue to resolve with our vendor translators.



I've always used and heard "dans le sens des aiguilles d'une montre" for

clockwise and my fellow French colleagues agree.



I will assume it is a literal translation until somebody can shed some light

onto the matter.



Please send your comments to me directly at either of the following e-mail

addresses:



allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com   OR  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



Jeff Allen

Caterpillar Inc.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:29:27 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: hmm.. what's cajun English, then?



This takes off from the /buku(z)/ issue. Several people wrote in to

say that it was not Cajun English since it dates back to WWII or older

(though I'm not sure just how these are contradictory), or-- more to

the point-- since Cajuns don't use it in their English. I was taking

Dick Heaberlin's word for it that it's used by folks in what I think

he called Cajun country in SE Texas (didnt't keep the message). Cathy

Bodin writes to say it might be used by

    1--"Anglos (people of Cajun extraction who speak English)"

or   2--"transplants [..on] the fringe of the dialect area"

Mike Picone has also recently used the term "Cajun English" in this

group. My questions are these:

    --if (1) above are NOT speakers of Cajun English, then who is?

    (I'm assuming that the real speakers, who "Please to stand up"

    as we say in Jamaica, must both be "of Cajun extraction" and

    "speak English"!)

    --has anyone written about Cajun English itself, and where?

(I believe y'all about /buku/, but still find it an odd bit of

grammaticalization that it can take plural /-z/. Course then it looks

more like "buckets", which can be similarly used, at least for "buckets

of money"! and there's "mercy buckets", etc..)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 17:18:52 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boston accent



On Tue, 31 Jan 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Yes, Phil the Italian was from the North End in "American Tongues," but

  there were also interviews with speakers from South Boston (this would've

  been the Irish speaker) and from Dorchester. In the original version,

  about 65 minutes in length, there were more Bostonians, the whole set

  of speakers that are shown in the checkerboard montage near the end. The

  55-minute version cut out the 'brahmin' speakers, whose dulcet tones can

  be distinguished in that final montage. Anyone looking for "the" Boston

  accent is not gonna find it 



               DMLance

 

Huh? The version I use has the two brahmins sitting in a library arguing

about Dickens and jane Austen.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 20:56:10 -0600

From:  "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT,

     SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY"  DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU 

Subject: Re: hmm.. what's cajun English, then?



Dick Heaberlin

English Dept.

SWTSU

San Marcos, Texas 78666



Listen Y'all,

I haven't made a study of Cajun English in Southeast Texas

(But it would be interesting.) All I can assert is that the

expressions "buku" and "bukuz of" were, in the forties and early

fifties, common expressions by both those who were undoubtedly

anglo and those recently from Louisiana many of whom could

and did regularly speak French. When I took French

in college, I learned the phrase "beaucoup de" and assumed that

"bukuz" was an English speaker's version. Orange was a Navy town, and the

phrase may have arrived in East Texas from the military connection. But

I think the Louisiana source is much more likely.



I never hear the phrase in central Texas. I wonder

if it is still part of Southeast Texas English.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 22:15:15 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: 'and them'



The discussion seems to have gotten away from "and thing", which

collectivizes any sort of thing, at least according to Gonzales. Can "and

them" apply to anything but people? My mother uses "'n'ose" ("and those"),

as in "Aunt Mary 'n'ose", but I don't recall her using it for animals or

other non-humans.



Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Jan 1995 21:36:48 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: hmm.. what's cajun English, then?



     1--"Anglos (people of Cajun extraction who speak English)"



     --if (1) above are NOT speakers of Cajun English, then who is?

     (I'm assuming that the real speakers, who "Please to stand up"

     as we say in Jamaica, must both be "of Cajun extraction" and

     "speak English"!)



I'm not sure what the original poster meant, but I'd say there is a definte

difference between my 37 year-old husband, who is 7/8ths cajun by blood and

was raised in southeast Texas but speaks no French, and his 73-year-old

grandfather, who was raised on Avery Island in Louisiana, learned English

as a second language, spoke French at home with his wife (until her recent

death), and whose English carries a distinctly "cajun" accent and syntax.



I apologize--as a non-linguist who usually only lurks on this list, I don't

really know what the technical distinction is. It does seem to me there is

one.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



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End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jan 1995 to 31 Jan 1995

************************************************





.