Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 14:12:26 PDT
From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Methods VIII
Dear Tom:
Just a quick word about a recent goof of
mine. As you've probably noticed, a message (labeled
of "undetermined origin"!) has been floating
around on LINGUIST. As you've probably guessed, it
was intended for you. Don't know whar happened but it
was outa here well before I knew theere was a problem!
Hope you saw it anyway.
Cheers,
Jimmy.
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1993 17:15:26 -0700
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII
Jimmy, your mail HAS been floating about labeled "of undetermined
origin," but we all got the messages. Talk to you soon. tlc
Soon as I figure out your e-mail address.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1993 11:47:01 PDT
From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII
Status: R
Jimmy, your mail HAS been floating about labeled "of undetermined
origin," but we all got the messages. Talk to you soon. tlc
Soon as I figure out your e-mail address.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2
Tom: It's jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sol.UVic.ca: it ought to have been part of
the header of yesterday's message. Ta-ta!
Jimmy.
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 10:21:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII
Although it is nice to be privy to the chit-chat of J. Arthurs and T. Clark
(what the great will do the less will prattle of), their interchange raises an
interesting communications problem which, perhaps, many of you have suffered.
The University of Victoria header lines do not allow automatic message return.
That is, if your system (as nearly all do) has a command which simply allows
you to 'answer' a message, it will NOT get to Victoria. You must manually type
in the addresses there. I thought I might mention this since some of you are
doubtless still registering for METHODS (or requesting overheads, etc...)
Dennis Preston (22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)
Date: Sat, 3 Jul 1993 17:38:32 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: African American foods
On Tue, 29 Jun 1993 08:50:29 -0500 (CD, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:
Well, Dan, I have checked here in Chicago. African Americans (with all the
dangers of this sweeping generalization) like to buy Polish sausage, though
this is not typically served in our local soul food restaurants. We live,
however, in a city with a very important Polish component, contributing to a
Chicagoan culture, if I may put it this way. African Americans from Chicago
also participate in this Chicagoan culture. Could the overlap of cultures
account for the phenomenon you have brought to our attention?
Now two questions: 1) Need African American culture be homogeneous and the
same everywhere there are African Americans?
No. However, I think of "soul food" as being the traditional cooking of
rural Southern African-Americans.
Though certainly, Polish sausage seems closer to that tradition than
chicken aspic does to traditional Icelandic cookery.
2) What is the relation between
the variation I am suggesting here and the change I think you claimed in your
earlier observation? The empirical observation in itself has been very
informative, in any case.
It suggests that the culture African-Americans brought when they migrated
from the South to Chicago has been urbanized, Northernized, and
Chicagoized -- which probably isn't news to anyone.
Could you own conclusion in this last note be interpreted as 'the Minnesota
notion of soul food in Chicago includes Polish sausage'?
I'm not sure whose notion of soul food it is. I don't know if the bar's
night time customers are predominantly Minnesota-born or Chicago-born. The
bar's owners are white (as almost all the daytime customers seem to be).
Question -- what do African-Americans call Americans whose parents came
from Africa?
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 5 Jul 1993 19:23:45 PDT
From: "J. Arthurs" jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOL.UVIC.CA
Subject: METHODS VIII Programme
mEthods victoria, b.c.
I 1
International Conference on Dialectology
G 9
AUGUST 3-7
H 9
Info: Linguistics, University of Victoria
T 3
Box 3045, VICTORIA, B.C., CANADA V8W 3P4
METHODS VIII PROGRAMME
MONDAY AUG. 2ND.
7 - 9 p.m. P Registration & Reception: Green Room, Commons Block
TUESDAY AUGUST 3RD
**ALL conference sessions to take place in the Senate Chambers**
Morning session: Chairs: TBA
9.00 OPENING REMARKS.
9.30 "On the need for commentary on the French 'Atlas
linguistiques regionaux'."
JOSEPH REISDOERFER,
Lycee classique de Dickirch, Luxembourg
"The 'Midland Dialect' & Linguistic Atlas Records."
LAWRENCE M. DAVIS & CHARLES L. HOUCK,
The Wichita State University, U.S.A.
10.00 "Aspects of dialectal variation in Southern & Eastern
Balto-Fennic: recent trends in modelling vowel harmony
in Estonian & Vepsian."
JEAN LEO LEONARD,
Universit e de Provence, France.
"Regional variation in Acadian French: quantitative
analysis of the maritime lexicon."
WLADYSLAW CICHOCKI,
Universite du Quebec a Montreal
Rose Mary Babitch,
University of New Brunswick, New Brunswick
Louise Peronnet,
Universite de Moncton, New Brunswick
10.30 BREAK
11.00 "Linguistic Geography & Phonological Instability:
Vowel length in East-Central yiddish."
NEIL G. JACOBS,
The Ohio State University, Ohio
"'In', 'on' & 'of' in the dialect of Craven in West
Yorkshire: the evidence of "A Native of Craven'
[1828]."
BEAT GLAUSER,
Universitaet Heidelberg, Germany.
11.30 "Finnish Dialectometrics."
KALEVI WIIK,
University of Turku, Finland.
12.00 LUNCH BREAK
Afternoon Session: Chairs: TBA
% 1.45 FEATURED PAPER:"The English Dialect Lexicon project."
CLIVE UPTON & John Widdowson,
University of Sheffield, U.K.
2.30 "The new Mexico-Colorado Spanish survey: methodology
& technology."
NEDDY VIGIL & GARLAND BILLS,
University of New Mexico, U.S.A.
"The U.S. South: the Touchstone."
DENNIS R. PRESTON,
Michigan State University, U.S.A.
3.00 BREAK
3.30 "Variation dans les emprunts dialectaux arabes a la
langue francaise en Algerie."
ALI BOUAMRANE,
University of Oran, Algeria
"The problem of defining the status of the boundary
dialects of closely related languages (South Slavic
area)."
ANDREJ N. SOBOLEV,
Institute of Linguistic Studies, St. Petersburg,
Russia.
4.00 "The multifarious realisations of 'r' in Algerian
French."
MOHAMED BENRABAH,
University of Oran, Algeria.
"Les doublets lexicaux en usage dans la region
frontaliere polono-ukrainienne."
STEFAN WARCHOL,
Universite Marie Curie-Sklodowska,
Poland.
4.30 "Fading dialectal distinctions among younger
speakers in the extreme Midwest?"
ALVIN L. GREGG,
The Wichita State University, U.S.A.
WEDNESDAY AUGUST 4TH
Morning session: Chairs: TBA
9.00 "Polish language variation and change in an urban
setting."
JOHN J. STACZEK,
Georgetown University, U.S.A.
"Substratum, Superstratum or Adstratal Convergence?
Crosslinguistic interference between North Russian
Dialects & Karelian."
ANNELI SARHIMAA,
The Academy of Finland, Finland
9.30 "Distinguishing between language and dialect contact:
Hiberno-English syntax."
MARKKU FILPPULA,
University of Joensuu, Finland.
10.00 "Ethnography & discourse analysis: Language, Region
and Personal Identity in Texas."
BARBARA JOHNSTONE,
Texas A & M & McNeese State Universities , U.S.A
Delma McLeod-Porter, Judith Matson Bean,
McNeese State University. Texas A&M University.
10.30 BREAK
11.00 "Using commercial CD-ROMs for Dialect Research:
Frenglish in Canadian newspapers."
MARGERY FEE,
Queen's University, Ontario
"Sex as a factor in variation & change of popular
speech in rural Brazilian Portuguese."
BRIAN F.HEAD,
State University of New York at Albany, U.S.A.
11.30 "Americans' perceptions of linguistic correctness:
evidence from ordinary people."
VERONIKA HORVATH,
Ball State University, U.S.A.
12.00 LUNCH BREAK
Afternoon Session: Chair: TBA
% 1.45 FEATURED PAPER: "Survey of standardization in
Tsuruoka City, Japan: comparison of results from three
survey conducted after 20-year intervals."
MASATO YONEDA,
National Language Research Institute, Japan
2.30 "Educational & gender-related differences in verb
forms: last words."
VIRGINIA G. MCDAVID,
Emerita, Chicago State University, U.S.A.
3.00 BREAK
3.30 "Social uses of untriggered English reflexives."
JOHN J. STACZEK,
Georgetown University, U.S.A.
4.00 "Le russe des emigres en France: cinq generations
d'immersion dans la francophonie."
NATHALIA GOLUBEVA-MONATKINA,
Moscow Institute of International Relations,
Russia.
4.30 "Variations in Vancouver English: Further factors
in linguistic change?"
GAELAN DODDS DE WOLF,
University of Victoria
THURSDAY AUGUST 5TH
Morning session: Chairs: TBA
9.00 "The advantage of a multivariate statistical
procedure in social dialectology: a Canadian English
example."
JUDITH A. NYLVEK,
University of Victoria
"A new method of computer data analysis in
dialectology."
KATALIN MOLNAR,
Berzsenyi College, Hungary.
9.30 "LAMSAS goes SASsy II: Another generation of
Statistical Methods for Regional Analysis."
WILLIAM A. KRETZSCHMAR, JR.,
University of Georgia, U.S.A.
"EDP Usable Encoding systems for phonetic
transcriptions in Dialectology. A survey of European
solutions and a suggestion for standardization."
BERNHARD KELLE,
Universitaet Freiburg, Germany.
10.00 "Portable & reusable software for dialect surveys."
GUILLAUME SCHILTZ,
Universitaet Freiburg, Germany.
"Linguistic variation and the Shoebox programme."
MARGUERITE MACKENZIE & SANDRA CLARKE,
Memorial University of Newfoundland
10.30 BREAK
11.00 "Acoustical analysis of nasal resonance patterns for
2 dialects of French."
BERNARD & ANNE ROCHET,
University of Alberta, Alberta
"Tone Geography in Thailand: the Tone-box method."
KALAYA TINGSABADH,
Chulalongkorn University, Thailand
11.30 "Le corpus linguistique de Sherbrooke."
NORMAND BEAUCHEMIN,
Universite de Sherbrooke, Quebec.
"Classification of Polish dialect dictionaries."
JERZY REICHAN,
Instytut Jezyka Polskiego PAN, Poland
12.00 "Field Methods & Non-standard Grammar."
GRAHAM SHORROCKS,
Memorial University of Newfoundland,Newfoundland
12.30 LUNCH BREAK, followed by FREE AFTERNOON
FRIDAY AUGUST 6TH.
Morning session: Chair: TBA
9.00 "The intersection of competing sound changes: methods
of identification & analysis.
KARIN FLIKEID,
St. Mary's University, Nova Scotia.
9.30 "Linguistic norms versus actual usage in a
disintegrating language."
JAAP VAN MARLE & CAROLINE SMITS,
P.J. Meertens-Instituut, The Netherlands
10.00 "Development of English English Dialects since the
Late Seventeenth Century."
OSSI IHALAINEN,
University of Helsinki, Finland
10.30 BREAK
11.00 "Dialect variability in the historical perspective."
ELVIRA MYACHINSKAYA,
Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia
11.30 "Inferring phonology from a postal questionnaire:
yod-dropping and /u/-laxing in the Golden Horseshoe."
JACK C. CHAMBERS,
University of Toronto, Ontario
12.00 LUNCH BREAK
Afternoon Session: Chair: TBA
1.30 "Role & importance of interdialectal contacts study
for historical dialectology."
P.N. LIZANETZ,
University of Uzhgorod, Ukraine.
2.00 "The localization of a Wycliffite standard document
by dialect-geographical means."
PAUL A. JOHNSTON JR.,
Western Michigan University, U.S.A.
2.30 "Geographie linguistique et geologie linguistique."
NICOLAE SARAMANDU,
Academia Romana, Romania
3.00 BREAK
3.30 "Dialectal spelling evidence & Midddle English
quantitative phonology."
JULIA V. RYABUKHINA,
St. Petersburg University, Russia
4.00 "Archaisms in the Albanian dialects of Bulgaria &
Ukraine."
MARINA V. DOMOSILETSKAYA & Lyubov V. Sharapova,
Russian Academy of Sciences ,Russia.
4.30 "Relative clauses in the Francis archive of Norfolk
speech."
PATRICIA POUSSA,
University of Sheffield, U.K.
SATURDAY AUGUST 7TH.
Morning session: Chair: TBA
9.00 OPENING REMARKS.
9.30 "The geography of the "mid-vowel merger" in English:
a reappraisal."
PAUL A. JOHNSTON JR.,
Western Michigan University, U.S.A.
10.00 "Lexical borrowing and syntactic change in Prince
Edward Island French."
RUTH KING,
York University, Ontario.
10.30 BREAK
11.00 "Some grammatical innovations in Irish dialects."
IDA V. KRIUKOVA,
Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia.
11.30 "Ain't, the all-purpose negative."
NATALIE MAYNOR,
Mississippi State University, U.S.A.
12.00 "Syntactic variation in a bidialectal speech
community."
GUNNEL MELCHERS,
Stockholms Universitet, Sweden.
12.30 LUNCH BREAK
Afternoon Session: Chair: TBA
% 1.45 FEATURED PAPER: "On DARE, from DARE."
LUANNE VON SCHNEIDEMESSER,
University of Wisconsin, U.S.A.
2.30 "Reconstructing system membership from surface
variability."
SHANA POPLACK,
University of Ottawa, Ontario.
3.00 BREAK
4.00 BUSINESS MEETING
5.00 ADJOURNMENT
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 06:35:07 CDT
From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
Subject: Re: African American foods
Let me repeat manually Dan's question, since I can't reproduce it
ellectronically in the cumbersome system I am using: "Question -- what do
African-Americans call Americans whose parents came from Africa?" The
question has never come up in my dealings with African Americans. My daughter
has an AA mother and carries an American passport and refers to herself
sometimes as African and sometimes as AA, depending on her moods. Outsiders
to the family do not deal with it and the question of nationality does not
come up. I have not had a chance to witness it in other African-AA families.
When both parents are African, children generally consider themselves
African, despite the choice they have. Again, to my knowledge other children
do not seem to care... as long as the A/AA kids behave like the AA kids. Have
you heard any particular name I should know?
Incidentally, I would like to raise more questions on your Minneapolis case
of soul food, but I will let AAs continue this discussion, with more ethnic
sensitivity, if it interests them. I believe in the distinction between out-
and in-notion of some concepts. Even concepts seemingly as simple as 'sould
food' may wind up being quite elusive, espcially to acculturated outsiders
like myself.
Thanks,
Sali.
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 15:47:26 -0700
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: coffee milk
Just read an article in the local paper. AP wire story dateline
Providence, RI. Gist of the article was that "coffee milk" is a
delicacy NOT found outside of the great and wonderful state of
RI. Consequently, the state legislature is about to make it the
'official' state drink. The concoction is made with 'coffee syrup,'
a mixture of instant coffee, corn syrup, and water.
Something rang a bell. Yep, right there in DARE, Vol I, we have
"coffee milk n [Prob transl Fr _cafe-au-lait_ coffee with milk]
LA Coffee with hot milk" two cites from LA
Well, well, well. It appears those dolts in RI don't know that
"coffee milk" IS known outside of RI. But my question is, how in the
world did those folk in RI get the correct translation from French?
Do you suppose there is a substrata in Rhode Island language that
we have not discovered until now?
Beth?
Cheers, tlc
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1993 19:16:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: coffee milk
I'm not so sure the RI dolts have it right. Cafe-au-lait should be 'milk
coffee,' not 'coffee milk' the latter, as any good Midwesterner will tell you,
is milk which is used to put in coffee (after the demise of cream and before
the rise [shudder] of Creamora).
Course, you are lucky to get any of this from me -
Dennis R. (black-coffee-drinking) Preston
22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 07:59:43 -0400
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
A friend of mine in Syracuse, Armand Desruisseaux, grew up in French-
speaking Manchester NH--even went to an all French high school--so
it's not at all unthinkable that a French substratum exists in RI,
Tom.
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:26:19 CDT
From: Mary Howe HOWE%UKANVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: coffee milk
Coffee milk is not coffee with hot milk, but cold milk with coffee syrup.
Like chocolate milk, only better. Although there is a substantial French
Canadian population in parts of Rhode Island, I don't think this is a
translation from cafe au lait, since it is quite a different drink.
In fact, 'regular coffee' in Rhode Island (at least 20 years ago when
I lived there) means coffee with milk and sugar, which more closely
resembles cafe au lait than coffee milk.
Mary Howe
University of Kansas
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:43:00 CST
From: Larry Davis DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU
Subject: Re: coffee milk
When has anyone seen Dennis Preston drinking -- COFFEE?
Cheers.
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 11:28:00 CST
From: Cynthia Bernstein BERN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DUCVAX.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: Re: coffee milk
I remember "coffee milk" from my childhood in New York (Long Island)
as a drink consisting of a little coffee and a lot of milk and sugar.
Cindy Bernstein, Auburn
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:48:07 EST
From: MKONTRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Allan Bell's address
Could somebody please give me Allan Bell's snailmail address?
Miklos Kontra
mkontra[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucs.indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:59:01 EST
From: "Betty S. Phillips" EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENGFAC.INDSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Allan Bell's address
Good to see your name on the network, Miklos!
According to the LSA directory, Alan Bell is at
Department of Linguistics
University of Colorado
Boulder, CO 80302
Betty Phillips, ISU
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 21:05:28 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Dictionaries of American Regional _____
Do the following exist, under whatever name?
Dictionary of American Regional Spanish
Dictionary of American Regional French
Dictionary of American Regional German
Dictionary of American Regional Dutch
Dictionary of American Regional Yiddish
Dictionary of Mexican Regional English
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 07:15:02 -0700
From: Gail Stygall stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Generic Product Names
I am looking for references on the shift of a product name (e.g., kleenex,
xerox, coke) to a generic. When, for example, would a lexicographer
declare a product name a generic? Is there an appropriate percentage of
use? The only recent discussion I can find is the Shuy-Dumas discussion
in Am. Speech. My apologies to those who will also receive this as a post
from Linguist. Thanks.
Gail Stygall, English, U. of Washington
stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 14:11:52 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Generic Product Names
At the last several DSNA meetings, the Federal Trademark Association has
sponsored a reception and has sent a representative to thank the Dictionary
Society and dictionary publishers for their cooperation in making the
scholarly community aware of the legal side of trademarks and tradenames.
No matter how frequently 'xerox' or 'coke' is used by native speakers, if
one uses these in print under certain conditions, large chunks of
litigigiousness crush his/er head and the long arm of the law extracts not
a few bucks from the offender's pocket.
I remember reading two or three years ago about an honest, hard-working
immigrant who put up a hand-written sign in his little sandwich shop saying
"cokes 75 cents" (or whatever price). Pepsico police found out that
when his clients ordered these "cokes" they received some form of Pepsi.
Pepsico filed a suit for the megabuck-loss and personal humilation caused by
the misrepresentation on that illegal sign. The guy went out of business
and, I suppose, enrolled in an ESL / American Culture class at SF State.
And I understand that G&C Merriam got megabucks from Random House for the
unscrupulous way they copied the typography of Merriam's use of "Webster's"
on the spines of dust jackets. I'm sure Random House will make back all
the money they paid out, because at our University Bookstore students buy
the RH Webster's because the big red dust jacket draws their eyes to the
magic word in dictionarydom. Store personnel display the bogus Webster's
more prominently than the Merriam dictionaries.
Perhaps some publishing lexicographer on ADS-L will give a direct response
to Gail Stygall's question. DMLance
Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 16:32:55 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU
Subject: lists
I inadvertently f-9nd the message concerning all the language list servs
currently operating. Could the person who posted that list of language lists
send me another posting.
Gratefully yours,
--Alphonse Vinh
Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.bitnet
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:49:12 -0400
From: Mike Agnes by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU
Subject: Generic Product Names
In partial response to Professor Stygall's initial
query and Professor Lance's slyly challenging reply,
I'll put in my two cents' worth on trademarks,
replete with problems and questions and devoid of
solutions.
I'm not certain that many linguists appreciate
the difficulties of treating trademarks in a
published dictionary. Any morning's mail may bring
some lawyer's angry letter (hypallage?) in "defense"
of Veg-O-Matic, S.O.S. soap pads, Sheetrock, Crescent
wrench ("Who'd a thunk it," as Pokey would say), or
what have you, threatening litigation if the
dictionary isn't instantly reprinted with the
product identified as trademarked and entered in some
bizarre orthography with a definition that has nothing
to do with contemporary language practice. It is VERY
tempting to take some legally safe but
lexicographically unsound editorial approach in
treating these words.
Some lexemes, of course, divide use among (at least
suspected) trademark sense and generic sense. Americans,
and increasingly other English-speakers (and many
authors) seem quite brand-conscious;
in examining citations it takes no little judgment
to decide when an author means "Jeep" and not "jeep,"
regardless of capitalization. The problem is compounded
by the scrupulosity of copy editors, who are routinely
equipped with a list of unsuspected trademarks. These
orthographic zealots are likely to change a novelist's
"realtor" to "Realtor" or "tabasco" to "Tabasco," thus
presenting the citation-collector with a somewhat
skewed representation of true (i.e., intended) usage.
There is a fairly seamless spectrum from "loafer"
and "windbreaker" and "spansule" to "jeep" and "kleenex"
and "pyrex" to "cuisinart" and "fudgsicle" to "Gore-Tex"
(tm's all). These can be dealt with rather adroitly in a
way that is editorially honest and at the same time
unlikely to incur the wrath of the tm holder (but you
had better have citations in hand when the process
server shows up).
The lexicographer is in a special bind when a tm
lexeme jumps its semantic boundaries in such a way that
the trademarked sense is not worthy of entry but the
extended sense is. An example is "bakeoff." Do you
really want to give a definition of a proper name "an
annual competition sponsored by Pillsbury . . . ."? I
would prefer to relegate such information to an
etymology; I would no more enter the tm sense
than, say, the "South Sligo Annual Amplexus Marathon."
But the tm owner will probably NOT understand this and
will continue insisting that a tm definition be entered.
(Is it any wonder that we're currently inundated with
anti-lawyer jokes?)
One unexpected problem is a tm that is registered as
a singular or plural noun, which form is at odds with
conventional usage. "Caplets" is the registered TM; how
should one frame the headword for a dictionary entry?
If you want to enter "visegrips" (virtually a pluralia
tantum in normal usage), what do you do when you find
out the Kansas manufacturer of the real McCoy, so beloved
of shade-tree mechanics, has trademarked the character
sequence "Vise-grip"?
What do you do when a TM is not actively defended in
the U.S. but IS defended in overseas markets (as with
"Caplet")? What do you do when you think a trademark may
be held overseas but not in the U.S.? (E.g., Chambers
claims "cat's-eye" and "Baby Buggy" are tm's.)
Have any dictionaries ever caved in to legal threats?
I'll bet a few have, but we will probably never know for
certain. (Try plying "a publishing lexicographer" with a
double Bushmills at the next DSNA conference; his tongue
might loosen!)
It is my belief that the citational evidence one might
present in defense of this or that editorial treatment
would never bear the scrutiny of sound statistical
analysis. The sample would surely be too small and not
scientifically valid. And I don't care HOW many million
citations you claim to carry!
Best to all, and I never wrote this: someone has pirated
my Freenet ID!
--
Mike Agnes INTERNET: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu
BITNET: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm
FAX: 216 579 9970
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:27:15 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: TM
I read a ms. a while back that detailed the reaction of the TM assoc.
to W3's policy of not capitalizing any words, trademarks included.
According to this story, Merriam succumbed to threatened legal action
and reset its sheets to capitalize TMs.
Times change, though, and I note that Webster's 10th now includes
xerox (verb, lower cased) along with Xerox.
So here's my question. I have asked a couple of times in print about
what I perceive to be the failure of dictionaries to include an entry
for Webster's, defining it as something like `a dictionary, an English
dictionary.' At least in the US, Webster's is often a generic term,
used in free variation with such terms as "the dictionary" (as if there
were only one!). But no dictionary records this use. During the
recent discussions of Random House's adoption of the name Webster
for its desk dictionary, and the renaming of W10 as Merriam Webster's
Collegiate Dictionary, publicists routinely mentioned that "Webster's"
in a dictionary title meant money in the bank, because the public
associated it so strongly with authority.
In a recent note in _English Today_ Tom Paikeday gives some cites
to support this. Unfortunately, he uses me as an authority, whereas
I was just making a wild assertion hoping someone would either back me
up or say I was wrong and why (in case you didn't notice, that is how
I do things).
Any comments on Webster's, o lexicographic ones?
Dennis
--
debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392
\'\ fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron \'\ ____________
Department of English / '| ()___________)
University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\
(__) ()___________)
Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 16:17:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: Dan Mosser
Would someone please give me Dan Mosser's email address?
thanks,
beth simon
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 17:19:00 -0300
From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA
Subject: Allen Metcalf's e-mail address
Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to
the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?
Alternatively, can someone tell me how I can tell a
non-member of the ADS how to purchase PADS 77, the
Index to DARE I and II, that came free to current
members?
Thanks.
Terry Pratt, University of PEI, Canada C1A 4P3
"TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA"
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:23:50 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: Allen Metcalf's e-mail address
Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to
the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?
He told me a couple of months ago that McMurray State still isn't
online but will be soon (he hopes).
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:30:50 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Allen Metcalf's e-mail address
In Message Mon, 26 Jul 1993 17:19:00 -0300,
"Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca writes:
Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to
the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?
Alternatively, can someone tell me how I can tell a
non-member of the ADS how to purchase PADS 77, the
Index to DARE I and II, that came free to current
members?
Thanks.
Terry Pratt, University of PEI, Canada C1A 4P3
"TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA"
No he doesn't have email yet. MacMurray is not on the Internet. But
anyone can buy PADS directly from U Ala. Press. All issues of PADS
published by them are kept permanently in print, according to our
agreement with the press, and should be available.
By the way, I hope this gets through. I sent something last week about
trademark that never showed up.
Dennis
--
debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392
\'\ fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron \'\ ____________
Department of English / '| ()___________)
University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\
(__) ()___________)
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 16:46:25 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU
Subject: new dictionary
To all my colleagues interested in the beautiful and interesting language of th
e American South, I'd like to mention a newly published title:
Robert Hendrickson. _Whistlin' Dixie: a dictionary of Southern E
xpressions_ New York: Facts on File, 1993.
--Alphonse Vinh Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalevm
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:21:38 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: horrible examples
I'm looking for Horrible Examples of "English" dialog perpetrated by
American authors. That is -- dialog which the American author thought was
the way an Englishman would speak.
I'll also take the equivalent about or by Australians, New Zealanders,
Irish, South Africans, etc.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:34:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: examples of dialog
did you want specifically English men?
beth simon
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:42:18 EDT
From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU
Subject: Re: horrible examples
And one sees often enough the British novelist trying to make his American
characters sound right---look for that too, all those Boston maidens who
are made to "reckon" this or that in English novels.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 07:56:09 RSA
From: "m. lynne murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA
Subject: british/american dialogue
on a related note to the query about bad portrayals of english dialects,
since moving to south africa (27 days ago), i've noticed that americans
who are quoted in the newspaper are "translated" from american english
to south african or british english (sometimes the reports are from
s.a. papers, sometimes from british news services).
for example, i read an interview with macaulay culkin in the entertainment
section (hey, i was bored). i started to get suspicious that these weren't
an american child's words when he talked of "tidying (up?)" his room,
rather than "picking it up" or "cleaning" it. my suspicions were confirmed
when he started refering to his "mum" rather than his "mom".
considering that the most popular movies and tv here are american, it
surprised me that this "translation" took place--i'm sure most news-paper
reading south africans would have understood the americanisms. of course,
it's always possible that no interview took place.
lynne murphy
university of the witwatersrand
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:40:20 -0400
From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA
Subject: Re: horrible examples
There are some glorious examples of unidiomatic quotations in a
biography of Jack Teagarden, the great Texas trombonist and singer.
The biog is written by two Englishmen, trad freaks, and whenever
Teagarden opens his mouth he says things like "That will not suffice,
actually" or "We failed to reach Denver on time". (Those aren't actual
examples. I don't have the book here in my office, oddly enough, but
if you want the ref I can send it later.) --Jack Chambers
chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epas.utoronto.ca
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 11:26:02 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: british/american dialogue
As someone who has talked to journalists from time to time and then
seen the results, I can assure Lynne that even when a real interview
takes place the resulting story is more like the forthcoming Kennedy
biography or the notorious New Yorker piece on the shrink. But hey,
I mean what's real, anyway?
--
Dennis
debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392
\'\ fax: 217-333-4321
Dennis Baron \'\ ____________
Department of English / '| ()___________)
University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \
Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\
(__) ()___________)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:09:09 PDT
From: Bonnie McElhinny mcelhinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: language and gender syllabi
The Committee on the Status of Women in Linguistics (COSWL) is pleased to
announce the publication of a collection of language and gender syllabi, edited
by Elizabeth Hume (Dept. of Linguistics, Ohio State Univ) and Bonnie McElhinny
(Dept. of Linguistics, Stanford Univ.) The collection includes 27 syllabi for
courses on language and gender taught in an array of departments (linguistics,
anthropology, folklore, English, education, French, German). The collection
is a partial response to the Linguistic Society of America's mandate to COSWL
to "encourage research on women and language."
Special features of the collection include:
*syllabi for undergraduate and graduate courses
*ideas for paper topics
*examples of exam questions
*instructions for fieldwork exercises in gathering/analyzing
gender differences in language use
*bibliographies of work on language and gender
*comments from instructors about particularly successful
techniques for teaching implemented in the course
Contributors include: Niko BESNIER (Anthro, Yale), Janet BING (English,
Old Dominion Univ), Sue BLACKWELL (English, Univ. of Birmingham, UK),
Rebecca BURNS HOFFMAN (English, Univ. of Miami) , Penny ECKERT (IRL),
Suzanne FLEISCHMANN (French, Univ. of California, Berkeley),
Alice FREED (Linguistics, Montclair State College), Rebecca FREEMAN (School
of Education, Univ. of Pennsylvania), Barbara FOX (Linguistics, Univ. of
Colorado), Randy HARRIS (English, Univ. of Waterloo), Shirley HEATH (English/
Linguistics, Stanford), Elizabeth HUME (Linguistics, Ohio State Univ.),
Mary Jane HURST (English, Texas Tech), Deborah KAPCHAN (Folklore Institute,
Indiana Univ-Bloomington), Mimi KLAIMAN (Linguistics, Univ. of Indiana),
Kerstin LANGE (Anthropology), Joseph MALONE (Columbia), Sally
MCCONNELL-GINET (Linguistics/Women's Studies, Cornell Univ.), Bonnie MCELHINNY
(Linguistics, SStanford) Rae MOSES (Linguistics, Northwestern) Mary PARLEE
(Hunter College), Craige ROBERTS (Linguistics, Ohio State Univ.), Bambi
SCHIEFFELIN (Anthro, NYU), Ron SOUTHERLAND (Linguistics, Univ. of Calgary),
Deborah TANNEN (Linguistics, Georgetown Univ.), Lenora TIMM (Linguistics,
Univ. of CA--Davis), Ruth WODAK (Univ. of Vienna), Ana Celia ZENTELLA
(Linguistics, Hunter College).
The syllabi are available (1) in hardcopy format from the LSA, (2) in the
archives of LINGUIST and (3) through anonymous ftp from the linguistics archive
housed at the Univ. of Michigan file-server. Instructions follow for obtaining
copies from each of these sources.
(1) To purchase hard-copy versions, please send a check made out to "Linguistic
Society of America" for $20.00 (includes postage and handling--DC residents add
6% sales tax) to:
COSWL Language and Gender Syllabus Project
Linguistic Society of America
1325 18th Street, NW Suite 211
Washington DC 20036
(2) On the LINGUIST database, the syllabi are kept in 7 files called:
lg-gen-0 syl
lg-gen-1 syl
and so forth, through lg-gen-6 syl
To retrieve the syllabi, send a message to:
listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamvm1.tamu.edu (if you are on Internet)
OR
LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1 (if you are on BITNET)
The message should consist of a line or lines like the following:
get filename filetype linguist
For example,
get lg-gen-1 syl linguist
*Please note: It is possible to request all the syllabi at once by
sending one multi-line message consisting of 7 'get' commands; however the
files are large, so don't do this unless you can handle large email messages.
**The listserv will respond only to addresses it recognizes, so be sure
to send the request from the address from which you subscribed to LINGUIST.
(3) To obtain copies through ftp from the Univ. of Michigan file-server you
must be on Internet. Follow the following procedure:
ftp linguistics.archive.umich.edu (at your system prompt)
login: anonymous
passwd: type your email address
cd linguistics
cd handouts
cd syllabi
get L-G.Syllabi.0
get L-G.Syllabi.1
get L-G.Syllabi.2
get L-G.Syllabi.3
get L-G.Syllabi.4
get L-G.Syllabi.5
get L-G.Syllabi.6
quit
*Please note: These syllabi are lodged on a Unix system. Unix is case-
sensitive. If you use capital letters instead of small letters, or small
letters instead of capital letters, it will not recognize your command. Follow
the above format carefully.
**You may not want to obtain all these files at the same time. They take
up a considerable amount of diskspace.
***Questions should be directed to 'linguistics-archivists[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umich.edu'
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 14:24:30 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: ADS-L
how do I subscribe to the American Dialect Society?
Send this command to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU:
sub ADS-L Connie Irvine
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 14:27:09 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Oops
I think my brain got fried in my recent wanderings through Asia.
I didn't even notice that the note from Connie Irvine was on the
list. I thought I was replying just to her. I guess there have
been worse e-oopses, though. I'm mentioning this on the list in
case some of you were wondering how I thought she was going to get
my message about how to subscribe when she hasn't yet subscribed.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:41:26 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: examples of dialog
On Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:34:00 -0500 (CD, Beth Lee Simon wrote:
did you want specifically English men?
Sorry -- "English" dialog attributed to women also.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 18:49:51 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: translation in newspapers
On Wed, 28 Jul 1993 07:56:09 RSA, m. lynne murphy wrote:
on a related note to the query about bad portrayals of english dialects,
since moving to south africa (27 days ago), i've noticed that americans
who are quoted in the newspaper are "translated" from american english
to south african or british english (sometimes the reports are from
s.a. papers, sometimes from british news services).
Similar translation takes place when Americans are interviewed by American
newspapers. Professional and hobby-subculture terms are routinely
changed. As I understand it, if the reporter doesn't make such changes,
the editors will.
The differences between what Southerners (or even Philadelphians) are
quoted in the New York Times as saying, and what someone from that
background is likely to have said, would probably fill a thick book.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 16:58:34 -0700
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: horrible examples
Your message dated: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:42:18 EDT
--------
And one sees often enough the British novelist trying to make his American
characters sound right---look for that too, all those Boston maidens who
are made to "reckon" this or that in English novels.
I just read a slew of novels by Colin Dexter (creator of Inspector Morse,
the intrepid dyspeptic of PBS lately). Author lives in Oxford, settings
in Oxford (he went to Cambridge). His _The Jewel that was Ours_ features
a busload of American tourists, mainly Californians. What a hoot! Their
"American English" reads like a combination of Louisiana/Minnesota Pickle
Ranchers. I recommend it highly for the funny (unintentionally, of course)
dialogue. By the way, the mysteries are pretty good too. About six twists
in the final two pages of every novel.
Cheers,
tlc
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:17:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: translations and dialog
For Americans who write English dialog, and for the murder mystery
addicts (no one here, of course), I like Martha Grimes and Elizabeth George.
beth simon
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:24:57 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: American Dialect Society
And how does one subscribe to the American Dialect Society, rather than to
ADS-L?
That information is in the welcome message one receives when subscribing
to ADS-L. :-)
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
:ADD1 Your subscription to list 'listname'
Dear networker,
As of 'LSVFDATE()', you have been added to the LISTSERV distribution
list 'listname' ('title') by 'LSVU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]N(invoker)'.
.im $SIGNUP
ADS-L is a forum for exchange of ideas and information by members of
the American Dialect Society. To join the American Dialect Society,
write Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary, English Department, MacMurray
College, Jacksonville, IL 62650-2590. If you have questions about this
list, send e-mail to Natalie Maynor (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu).
Virtually,
The LISTSERV management
:END
*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:26:00 GMT
From: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK
Subject: Re: ADS-L
How can anybody be on the list - the ADS list - and *NOT* be a
member of the society?
John KIRK
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 06:38:13 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: ADS-L
How can anybody be on the list - the ADS list - and *NOT* be a
member of the society?
Subscription to ADS-L is open. When Bill Kretzschmar and I first
talked about the possibility of starting this list, we discussed
the various ways it could be set up, one of them being private --
i.e., subscription through e-mail to the listowner rather than
through the usual LISTSERV command. We decided that things would
be simpler if we made it an open, unmoderated list but without
announcing its existence except to members of ADS.
Although ADS-L has never been announced in the usual places like
NEW-LIST or the lists of lists, I've noticed that it has shown up
in various other documents floating through the nets. So far,
however, I don't think there's been a problem. The potential problem
we had worried about was that lots of people without professional
interest in or knowledge of the topic would flock to the list and
turn it into something like WORDS-L, a list that is very important
in my life but that is not in any way professional. For whatever
reasons, ADS-L so far hasn't seemed to suffer from its status as an
open list. Just as anybody who wants to can wander into a library
and read -American Speech-, so can anybody who wants to lurk on ADS-L
-- or even participate in the discussion. And, of course, anybody who
wants to can join ADS. I know of at least one case of somebody in
another field who lurked on this list for a while and then joined ADS
to get the publications.
After sending my smiling reply last night, I started wondering if the
person who asked how to join ADS might really have meant what she said
-- i.e., might really have been asking how to join ADS, not ADS-L. It
occurred to me that it might have been my tired brain (tired from
playing catchup after a long trip) that made me interpret the question
as being about the list rather than the society. Because I get many
e-mail messages almost every day asking me about one or more of the
lists I'm in charge of (the other two being far busier than ADS-L),
I saw that question as another list question. I still think that's
what it was, though. Among other reasons for my assumption is that
the person who asked the question wasn't an ADS-L subscriber and thus
wouldn't have seen an answer on the list. If she had been asking about
how to join ADS itself, she would probably have asked for the answer
to be sent directly to her instead of posted on the list. People asking
about subscribing to an e-mail list, however, often send such a message
to the list itself, knowing that the listowner will either add them or
send them info on how to join.
Why am I always verbose in the early morning???
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 08:55:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: ADS-L
Why are we all being so coy? Let's assume that someone wants to know how to
join the ADS. Easy: Send $25.00 to Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary, ADS,
English Department, MacMurray College, Jacksonville, IL 62650 and become one
of the few, the proud, the brave.
Dennis Preston (22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:15:01 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: murder mystery dialogue
What 'period' for terrible representation of dialogue are you looking for?
For '30s,*SS VanDine, very early Agatha Christie and John Buchan all
have replications that might interest you. Also, collections of regional
ghost stories that were 'rewritten' in the 50s-70s. Other interesting
sources are the columns to the reader - and the letters to the editor -
in the late volumes of St. Nicholas for turn-of-the-century.
*and earlier
The problem, of course, is distinguishing representation of speech from
being a writer who simply has 'stiff' dialogue, and I yield to others
more knowledgeable here. I wonder if the late Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe
series might be useful, or early Mary Roberts Rinehart?
Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:03:46 EDT
From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU
Subject: Re: murder mystery dialogue
A great source of both kinds is the classic series of very good mystery novels
written by John Dickson Carr (aka Carter Dickson), an American expatriate in
London, whose transAtlantic dialects and registers often blur---almost all of
his settings are British.
(And then there's expatriate Chester Himes, who lived so long in Paris that
one of his Harlem detectives writes with a stylo.... but that's another
story. And Ezra Pound's memories of English lower-class speech, after forty
years in Italy and the madhouse. And and and, all the arcana of speech-as-
representation.
Of which one of the oddest I know is old [A]bra[ha]m Stoker from South Africa,
who mastered his native English as if it were a foreign tongue. I invite a
psycholinguist to the feast spread for him in The Lair of the White Worm...
rk
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 1993 18:03:30 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: horrible dialogue
On Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:15:01 -0500 (ES, Boyd Davis wrote:
What 'period' for terrible representation of dialogue are you looking for?
What I'm looking for is: Dialogue, allegedly spoken by Englishmen/women,
written by American authors who got it horribly wrong. From any genre.
Any period.
I prefer to get actual quotes, rather than being pointed toward relevant
books, because I don't trust my ability to tell what's hilariously wrong.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
.