There are 4 messages totalling 120 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Double modals in Utah (4)



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Date:  Fri, 1 Jul 1994 16:02:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



Defining Modals



Within the context of this thread, modals are assumed to be

a small set of verbs defined by both their morphology and syntactic

behaviour. Morphologically these verbs lack particples and the

third person singular form in -s.



Need, and dare are modals in some dialects but not in others.

S. Mufwene gives two example sentences showing this variation

in need - the sentence with do support not having need as a

modal in this sense.



Be and have too, are not modals in this sense ever. Although of

course the term modal is sometimes used in a semantic sense and

in this sense has some cross-linguistic validity. That usage is

perfectly legitimate but not the way I understood the term to be

used in this thread. Sorry to be so long-winded - a clarification

was sought.



George Halliday



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Jul 1994 11:12:12 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



In Message Fri, 1 Jul 1994 16:02:00 +1200,

 "George Halliday 09483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]schools.minedu.govt.nz  writes:



 Defining Modals

 

 Within the context of this thread, modals are assumed to be

 a small set of verbs defined by both their morphology and syntactic

 behaviour. Morphologically these verbs lack particples and the

 third person singular form in -s.

   ...

 Be and have too, are not modals in this sense ever. Although of

 course the term modal is sometimes used in a semantic sense and

 in this sense has some cross-linguistic validity. That usage is

 perfectly legitimate but not the way I understood the term to be

 used in this thread.



 I agree with the observation that a subset of modals in English are

associated with some morphosyntactic peculiarities but not with the

stipulation that the class is morphosyntactically defined or based. Note

that by your criteria "ought [to]" and perhaps "used [to]" qualify as

modals, just like "must" and "may" but all these verbs do not have the same

morphosyntactic peculiarities. For one thing, they have different patterns

of complementation. In following your position we might wind up with a

a very small subset of verbs that behave alike but exclude a bunch of others

that express modality.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Jul 1994 08:19:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



Defining Modals More Tightly



As I conceded the term modal can and is used in different ways.

For the purposes of the thread which was discussing a particular

syntactic usage and its distribution, the definition on morphological

and syntactic grounds is the most useful.



I didn't bother to spell out all the syntactic classes in detail as

I presumed that the defining of this particular class would be old hat

to those on the list. Nor did I state that this class is limited (a

closed set) because as stated previously it varies slightly with dialect.



Two syntactic features are as suggested already lack of do support

and the bare infinitive without to.



Ought does vary too. I don't use it at all in my English, using should

instead. My wife does but she has do support:

I didn't ought to do it.



Used to - has do support for I would say most speakers

Didn't you used to go there a lot?



I know there are speakers who say oughtn't, and I have seen in old-fashioned

books for learners - Usedn't - so there is some variation - language is

fuzzy.



Finally I would use the terms "modal verb" or simply "modals" in a different

way to "modal expressions" and include "ought, have to" in the latter. I

would probably wish to work "is to" and "used to" into a description of

aspect. It all depends on your model (or brand of religion). As for

me, I'm not keen on government or bondage.



George Halliday



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Jul 1994 17:38:26 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



At 08:19 AM 7/2/94 +1200, George Halliday (09)483-9039 wrote:

 Finally I would use the terms "modal verb" or simply "modals" in a different

 way to "modal expressions" and include "ought, have to" in the latter. I

 would probably wish to work "is to" and "used to" into a description of

 aspect. It all depends on your model (or brand of religion). As for

 me, I'm not keen on government or bondage.



Anybody else remember the term "complementary infinitive" for infinitives

following such words as "use," "have," "go," "is," "happen," "about," and

"ought"? GWW



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End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1994 to 1 Jul 1994

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There are 3 messages totalling 56 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Double modals in Utah (3)



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Date:  Sat, 2 Jul 1994 15:27:24 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



The way to check for 'modal status' is to see whether the verb would be

used in the indicative mood with no -s when the subject is 'he'.

 George has said many things about modals.

 ?Need he say more?

 ?He need say no more.

 ?He dare not repeat the threat to be unresponsive.

 */?Dare he refuse to answer Sali's question?



Any sentence frame with a subject other than third person singular will not

serve as a good test for 'modal status' of the auxiliary. And the frame must

not be subjunctive. 'Dare' and 'need' act like modals only in rather

limited senses/situations.         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Jul 1994 11:17:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



Habitual BE



Has anyone on the list come across a sentence like



They always be there on Saturdays.



Is there a known dialect area in NAmer where dialects distinguish

between between an habitual and non-habitual action with a is/be

system? Just wondering.



George Halliday



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Jul 1994 20:14:52 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



They always be there on Saturdays.



George Halliday asked whether any North American dialects use this. I presume

he knows about VBE and is asking about other varieties. The 'be' + adverb

seems ungrammatical to me, but 'be' + adjective has an outside chance of being

possible in South Midland.



  They always be quiet on Sundays after church and a big meal.

  They sit around and be quiet for several hours.



I have a fuzzy recollection of surprising myself by saying the compound

structure in a situation that called for those two predicates.  DMLance



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End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jul 1994 to 2 Jul 1994

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There are 2 messages totalling 54 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Double modals in Utah (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Jul 1994 12:08:34 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



In Message Sat, 2 Jul 1994 08:19:00 +1200,

 "George Halliday 09483-9039"  HALLIDAYG%SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu 

 writes:



 Defining Modals More Tightly

   ....

 It all depends on your model (or brand of religion). As for

 me, I'm not keen on government or bondage.



Neither am I. Thanks, for your more explicit reply.

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Jul 1994 12:30:20 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



In Message Sat, 2 Jul 1994 15:27:24 CDT,

 "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu  writes:



 The way to check for 'modal status' is to see whether the verb would be

 used in the indicative mood with no -s when the subject is 'he'.

  George has said many things about modals.

  ?Need he say more?

  ?He need say no more.

  ?He dare not repeat the threat to be unresponsive.

  */?Dare he refuse to answer Sali's question?

 

 Any sentence frame with a subject other than third person singular will not

 serve as a good test for 'modal status' of the auxiliary. And the frame must

 not be subjunctive. 'Dare' and 'need' act like modals only in rather

 limited senses/situations.



 So would you say they are regular verbs with limited modal uses, or would

you charaterize them as modal verbs with idiosyncratic regular verb

characteristics, or would you consider the alternative that function rather

than form determines whether or not a verb is modal?

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



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End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Jul 1994 to 3 Jul 1994

**********************************************







There is one message totalling 20 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Double modals in Utah



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Date:  Sun, 3 Jul 1994 23:58:02 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah



Re Salikoko Mufwene's question about 'dare' and 'need. --

These verbs, it seems to me, have somewhat different senses as "modals" and

as regular verbs. Whether we have the regular verbs 'dare' and 'need' that

are occasionally used as modals, or vice versa, depends on the type of

bondage in one's theory. Contemporary speakers who use these verbs as

modals would do so only in certain (formal) registers, so theories that

ignore register (e.g., traditional grammar; strict structuralism; generative

rules) have no way of providing a satisfying answer to Sali's question.

Sali offered two options: "regular verbs with limited modal uses" and "modal

verbs with idiosyncratic regular verb characteristics." The former.

I don't feel a strong need to solve this "problem," because of the age of

speakers who use 'dare' and 'need'as quasi-modals -- but it is an interesting

one.                          DMLance



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End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jul 1994 to 4 Jul 1994

**********************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 163 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Job in the Phonetics of Irish English (2)

 2. Dog Language (2)

 3. Church house (4)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 15:31:00 GMT

From:  J.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject: Job in the Phonetics of Irish English



I wonder whether anyone out there might be interested in applying

for a new and additional lectureship in english Language and

Linguistics at the Queen's University of Belfast. This additional

post has come about in response to the strong research and teaching

record of the present full-time language staff and we are looking

for someone skilled and qualified in the phonetics and phonology

of English (but especially phonetics) who is willing to research

on and make a substantial contribution to the scholarship on the

phonetics of Irish English. We have a modest computer-based speech

laboratory in the school, and the new lecturer would be encouraged

to develop it.



Anyone interested in making informal enquiries with me is welcome

to get in touch by phone (+44) 232 245133 ext 3815; by fax (+44)

232 314615; or by email  ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUB.AC.UK.



Anyone intending to apply will need to deal with the university's

personnel office as special forms will have to be issued individually.

Its phone number is (+44) 232 245133 Ext. 3044 or 3246. Its fax

number is (+44) 232 324994 or 310629.



The clsing date is FRIDAY 22 JULY 1994. I apologise for only posting

this now, but I have been on holiday until yesterday. This has been

my earliest opportunity.



This is a permanent job and appointment could be made at any point

on the UK Lecturer A or B scales which run from 14756 to 25735 pounds.

Overseas applications would be welcome!



With thanks,



JOHN KIRK

School of English

The Queen's University of Belfast



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:02:21 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Job in the Phonetics of Irish English



Just wanted to mention that job announcements such as this are much

appreciated here. If anyone knows of openings in English LInguistics,

Dialectology, or Sociolinguistics, I'd like to hear about them.

Editorial work on LAMSAS is being suspended for lack of funding, though

research on the materials is ongoing.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 10:53:43 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Dog Language



    Anybody out there ever heard of something called Dog Language?

    As I understand it, vowels are pronounced in ordinary fashion, and

consonants are followed by certain agreed-upon sounds. "Thomas," for

example, would be something like Tu has o ma suh.

    The only person I know who uses it learned it from his grandmother,

and she once told him that slaves used Dog Language to keep their masters

from understanding them as they talked among themselves.

    Thanks, GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 11:30:26 -0500

From:  Shannon M Walbran  swalbran[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JEFF.HAMLINE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Dog Language



The 'dog language' query made me chuckle; it brought back my first weeks

teaching EFL in the (now) Slovak Republic. Slovak, being a phonetic language,

has near-perfect sound-symbol correlation. When I would ask how to spell

a new word (well, they were ALL new words to me), I would receive an "Are

you crazy?" look from my Slovak friends. Example: Q. How do you spell

"Shannon?" A. Obviously, sh - ah - nuh - oh - nuh, = s^anon.

    I have far too much respect for Slovak, however, to associate it

with any "dog" language, but your question did ring a buh - eh - luh.



Shannon Walbran

Global Language Institute

St. Paul, MN

swalbran[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]piper.hamline.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:26:07 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Church house



Yesterday I met a Baptist from Alabama who is here (in Ill.) with a

volunteer group helping put up a new church building here. He said they

were here to build a "church house" for what I would say is just a "church."

Any body encountered this? (I blush to say I haven't checked my

DARE--its at home and I'm at the office).



Tim Frazer



PS hope Rudy and you other folks in the SW aren't broiling--did I hear

111 for El Paso yesterday?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 13:35:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Church house



And blush you should, Tim.

DARE, Vol 1, *church house* n chiefly S Midl, Sth

"A church (building), a meeting house.



Our quotes run from an 1895 Dialect Notes entry from west Florida to

a DARE Tape quote, our Arkansas 56 informant.



best,

beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 17:25:09 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Church house



At 01:26 PM 7/15/94 -0500, mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:



 were here to build a "church house" for what I would say is just a "church."

 Any body encountered this?



Goodness, yes. And I am posting this from the school house right now. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Jul 1994 18:41:19 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Church house



On Fri, 15 Jul 1994 mftcf%UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.spcs.umn.edu wrote:



  Yesterday I met a Baptist from Alabama who is here (in Ill.) with a

  volunteer group helping put up a new church building here. He said they

  were here to build a "church house" for what I would say is just a "church."

  Any body encountered this?



Yes, and I've used it many times myself. The "church house" refers only

to the building, whereas "church" could refer to the building or to the

*organization*.





 (I blush to say I haven't checked my

  DARE--its at home and I'm at the office).

 

  Tim Frazer

 

  PS hope Rudy and you other folks in the SW aren't broiling--did I hear

  111 for El Paso yesterday?



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End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jul 1994 to 15 Jul 1994

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There are 4 messages totalling 83 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Church house (2)

 2. Church House

 3. stakehouse/steak house



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Jul 1994 10:23:31 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Church house



  And blush you should, Tim.

  DARE, Vol 1, *church house* n chiefly S Midl, Sth

  "A church (building), a meeting house.

 

  beth simon

 tooshay. I pay for my sloth once again!



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Jul 1994 14:46:42 -700

From:  Warren Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Church house



On Fri, 15 Jul 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:



  Yesterday I met a Baptist from Alabama who is here (in Ill.) with a

  volunteer group helping put up a new church building here. He said they

  were here to build a "church house" for what I would say is just a "church."

  Any body encountered this? (I blush to say I haven't checked my

  DARE--its at home and I'm at the office).

 

I'm LDS (Mormon), and we have our own unique religious vocabulary. For

example, the equivalent of a Catholic diocese is called a "stake"; the

local unit is called a "ward." Growing up in Southern Alberta, the stake

meetings were always held in a "stakehouse"; ward meetings, however, took

place at the "church." I have since lived for extensive lengths of time

in Korea, Illinois, and New Mexico. As well as I can remember, I do not

recall hearing "wardhouse" (at least, not in common use) until I moved

to Utah a few years ago. Now I hear it all the time.



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



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Date:  Sat, 16 Jul 1994 21:31:14 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Church House



On Sat July 16 Keith Russell wrote:



  I'm LDS (Mormon), and we have our own unique religious vocabulary. For

  example, the equivalent of a Catholic diocese is called a "stake"; the

  local unit is called a "ward." Growing up in Southern Alberta, the stake

  meetings were always held in a "stakehouse"



Keith,

Have you ever heard of new or non-members misinterpreting this as "steak

house"?

Fritz



  ward meetings, however, took

  place at the "church." I have since lived for extensive lengths of time

  in Korea, Illinois, and New Mexico. As well as I can remember, I do not

  recall hearing "wardhouse" (at least, not in common use) until I moved

  to Utah a few years ago. Now I hear it all the time.

 

  Keith Russell

  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Jul 1994 15:23:36 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  ASI_BEH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCNOV2.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: stakehouse/steak house



Fritz,



I grew up in a Catholic/Mormon household, and even as a 14 year old I

remember my ecclesiastical envy when she told us kids -- raised

Catholic in accordance with the pre-nuptial contract -- that she had

to go to a special church meeting at the "steak house". The most we

ever got from attending mass, after all, was doughnuts in the parish

basement.



Tim Behrend



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End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jul 1994 to 16 Jul 1994

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There is one message totalling 15 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. New edition of language book published



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Jul 1994 15:44:47 EDT

From:  Ian Tresman  72240.3447[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: New edition of language book published



    Press Release

The Multilingual PC Directory

 3rd Edition, publ. July 1994.

  256 pages. Soft bound.



The Multilingual PC Directory is a source guide to multilingual and foreign

language software for IBM PCs and compatibles. For a 1200 word description,

please email 72240.3447[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com for more details.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1994 to 17 Jul 1994

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There are 5 messages totalling 77 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Church House

 2. Church house

 3. Dog Language (2)

 4. Accurayc



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Jul 1994 13:43:14 -700

From:  Warren Keith Russell  wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM 

Subject: Re: Church House



On Sat, 16 Jul 1994, Charles F Juengling wrote:



  On Sat July 16 Keith Russell wrote:

 

    I'm LDS (Mormon), and we have our own unique religious vocabulary. For

    example, the equivalent of a Catholic diocese is called a "stake"; the

    local unit is called a "ward." Growing up in Southern Alberta, the stake

    meetings were always held in a "stakehouse"

 

  Keith,

  Have you ever heard of new or non-members misinterpreting this as "steak

  house"?

  Fritz

 

Yes, I have heard some funny stories along those lines. It's difficult to

separate fact from urban legend, however.



Keith



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Jul 1994 12:58:07 -0700

From:  madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU

Subject: Re: Church house



Years ago, when I lived in Providence, RI, I worked as a volunteer guide

for the Meeting House of the First Baptist Church in America. We were

told that for Baptists, the "church" is the congregation, the group of

believers, and the "meeting house" is the room where they meet. There

was a Baptist "church" long before there was a "meeting house;" the original

congregation consisted of about 7 people, and they met in each other's

houses. It doesn't surprise me that other American Baptists modify

"church" with "house" to express what other sects may be able to cover

with one word. I think Stan Lemons' history of First Baptist Church in

America makes reference to the use of "meeting house" throughout New England.



Sylvia

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Jul 1994 13:22:53 CST

From:  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU

Subject: Re: Dog Language



See DARE II at dog Latin (for the same thing as dog language).

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Jul 1994 18:01:44 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton"  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Dog Language



 See DARE II at dog Latin (for the same thing as dog language).



Thanks, GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Jul 1994 22:02:07 EDT

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Accurayc



In the latest (June '94) issue of LANGUAGE, editor Sarah Gray Thomason has an

excellent lament and admonition about the inaccuracy of data in studies

offered for publication (pp. 409-413).

 I think dialectologists too, both authors and editors, could benefit from

her strictures.

-Allan Metcalf



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End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jul 1994 to 18 Jul 1994

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There are 5 messages totalling 87 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth." (4)

 2. Accurayc



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Jul 1994 15:36:48 -0500

From:  "Robert J. O'Hara"  RJOHARA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



Greetings to all from a lurking amateur. Two colleagues of mine,

one from Michigan and one from Massachusetts, asked me if I knew the

expression "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth", referring to a person

who was emotionally very cold (though perhaps outwardly friendly).

I am also from Massachusetts, and had never heard the expression before.



Does anyone know anything about the origin or current distribution of

the phrase?



Bob O'Hara (rjohara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu)

University of North Carolina at Greensboro



(List owner of Darwin-L, a network discussion group for comparative study

of the historical sciences, including evolutionary biology and historical

linguistics. Gopher to rjohara.uncg.edu for more information, or send the

message INFO DARWIN-L to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukanaix.cc.ukans.edu.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Jul 1994 16:19:16 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



I hear it in regard to department politics in Middle Georgia.



I am not at liberty to say more. Sorry.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Jul 1994 15:32:15 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Accurayc



good observation about Sarah's message in LANG. i had no idea linguists

were so careless and cavalier. hope the other sciences don't do this;

afraid they do. probably a result of academe's "publish or perish" pressure,

which rewards "productivity," and which, I blush to say, I have supported

enthusiasticaly most of my career.



Tim Fraser--oops, Frazier--O my, Frasier -- Oh hell, whatever.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Jul 1994 15:47:05 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



I think I heard it first in the Air Force 30 years ago. Could be from al

over, though I think it was a guy from west central Ohio.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:22:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



Butter wouldn't melt...



Note it is so well-known it is often shortened - long live Zipf :-)



I have been familiar with Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth all my life

and would not regard it as exceptional in the least in the forms of English

I'm familiar with - that of Scotland, England and New Zealand. For some

reason I think of it as a typically Irish expression. To me it simply indicates

apparent innocence without a very strong suggestion that the reverse is the

case. Said of a boy who may be naughty at times perhaps but is on his good

behaviour. It may be connected with butter up.



George Halliday



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1994 to 19 Jul 1994

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 22 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth." (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Jul 1994 11:53:21 EDT

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



A female colleague of mine from Kansas (specializing in 18th century

lit, which may explain something) says "Butter wouldn't melt in his

mouth" all the time. For her the implication is not emotionally cold

so much as it is prissy. She says it about this finicky cat a lot.



Terry Irons



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Jul 1994 15:42:44 -0300

From:  "Terry Pratt, UPEI"  TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



Has meant a hypocrite to this Toronto boy for 51 years

(born with this lang knowledge!).



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 1994 to 20 Jul 1994

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 89 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."

 2. Iron Maiden?

 3. Linguistics Lists

 4. subscribing to linguist (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Jul 1994 09:18:40 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



 Has meant a hypocrite to this Toronto boy for 51 years

 (born with this lang knowledge!).



This is the definition here.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Jul 1994 14:38:09 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Iron Maiden?



I just got a note from somebody not in academia who is interested in

finding out the etymology of the expression "iron maiden" or "iron virgin."

Here's part of what he said:



   I know what the instrument does (or

  did), when, where and how it was used, and that it probably comes to us

  from the German "eiserne Jungfrau". But I have been totally unsuccessful

  in figuring out anything beyond that. Specifically, why virgin or

  maiden? A reference to the Madonna? Was there a famous use of the

  instrument on someone who was (or was not) a virgin? I have plenty of

  conjectures, but what I'm looking for is someone who has done or knows of

  research in the actual derivation of the term.



If you have any information about the term, please send it to kozinski[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]

mizar.usc.edu -- you might also post it to the list since others are

probably interested. Thanks.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Jul 1994 10:50:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Linguistics Lists



Lists for Linguistics



Could someone give me a pointer to any list on linguistics, both

socio-linguistics and theoretical. I have tried to get on linguist but the

address seems to have changed since the internet list list I found it on was

revised.



Geordie Halliday  HallidayG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]schools.minedu.govt.nz 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Jul 1994 18:31:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: subscribing to linguist



To subscribe to LINGUIST, try either listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamsun.tamu.edu

or, listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamvm1.tamu.edu



If neither works, the addresses of the moderators are

aristar[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tam2000.tamu.edu and hdry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emunix.emich.edu.

The hdry address is for Helen Dry at Eastern Michigan U., and

she has been very helpful with technical questions.



Did you want funknet too?



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Jul 1994 14:33:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: subscribing to linguist



Thanks for the info on linguist. I have never heard of Funknet but it

sounds spunky :-)



Geordie Halliday



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1994 to 22 Jul 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 52 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. subscribing to linguist (2)

 2. givon and funknet

 3. halliday and funknet



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Jul 1994 07:59:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: subscribing to linguist



Yes, Geordie, funknet is run (started?) by T. Givon. The "funk"'s for

functional linguistics (as opposed to the disfunctional and nonfunctional

kinds I suppose).



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Jul 1994 08:44:00 +1200

From:  "George Halliday (09)483-9039"  HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ 

Subject: Re: subscribing to linguist



Funknet



I'm sorry I can't send this to Beth privately but could someone post the

address of Funknet please.



Thanks Geordie Halliday



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Jul 1994 18:41:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: givon and funknet



From:  WIRCS2::BLSIMON   "Beth Lee Simon"

To:   IN%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.bitnet",BLSIMON

Subject: funknet



Send to

tgivon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oregon.ugoregon.edu

and say you want to subscribe.



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Jul 1994 18:45:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon  BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU 

Subject: halliday and funknet



Wait, there's an extra "g" in the address I gave you.

send to "tgivon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oregon.uoregon.edu".



beth



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1994 to 23 Jul 1994

************************************************







There is one message totalling 9 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Jul 1994 09:58:46 -0700

From:  Judith Rascoe  boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US 

Subject: Re: "Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth."



Does that phrase occur in the novel _Gone With the Wind_? I have a feeling

it does -- and that it might have got widely distributed because of it.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Jul 1994 to 24 Jul 1994

************************************************







There are 12 messages totalling 311 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Forrest Gump (11)

 2. Upstate New York



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 12:36:20 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Forrest Gump



Things have been pretty slow here on ADS-L lately. I reckon most people

are away, but for those stay-at-homes whose summer activities have

included a viewing of the new movie version of Forrest Gump, I have a

query.



I'm curious about something. Do the children who were used in the filming

(and seem to me to be among

the few whites in the film who have authentic Southern speech traits)

sound to you like children from the Carolinas (where I believe the filming

was done). They do not sound like any rural Alabamians that I am familiar

with, though the story is supposed to take place in Alabama. Of course some

of them have so few lines that it's hard to tell. Also, whoever coached Tom

Hanks seemed to be using a composite speech model that included the dropping

of post-vocalic /r/ in a way that is upper-crust and is not characteristic

of rural Alabama. And his vowel qualities usually strayed from what one

would expect to hear coming from an Alabamian. Since he's supposed to be

`slow', some of this, I suppose, may be an attempt at creating an idiolect,

but it seems more likely to me that, once more, it is that Yankee audience

that is in mind and must be served up something that resembles their

stereotyped perceptions of Southern speech.



By the way, one of the reasons why the movie was not done in Alabama has

to do with the University of Alabama's refusal of requests for filming on

location at this campus. Aspects of the script was deemed demeaning. For

example, students (other than Gump) were shown to be hostile to attempts

at integration during Wallace's famous "stand at the schoolhouse door"

scene. In fact, majority student opinion at the time favored integration.

(However, this represented a change in opinion from some years earlier

when the first, much less well-known attempt at integration took place

and failed partly because of the near-riotous conditions that prevailed

on campus.) No administrator has said so, but I suspect just as strong a

reason was the less-than-flattering portrayal, however fleeting, of Bear

Bryant.



I will not bore you with my own opinion of the film except to say that I

liked it and that it surely has more to say and much more worth than one would

wrongly be led to believe, as I was, after reading Jerry Adler's superficial

piece on it in the latest Newsweek (Adler even got some important elements of

the storyline confused).



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



Mike

are away. But for those whose summer activities have included

a viewing of the new movie version of Forrest Gump, here's a query.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 13:50:09 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



Do you happen to know where in the Carolinas the filming was done?

I was fascinated during the opening scene because the aereal views

(right before zooming down to the park bench) looked *exactly* like

part of downtown Jackson, MS. I'm looking forward to the availability

of the tape so that I can watch that part again. I could have sworn

that I saw the Mississippi Governor's Mansion and the front steps of

my childhood church in that scene.



As for the Southern dialect in the movie, almost all of it, both from

the children and the adults, sounded to me like the usual exaggerated

"Hollywood Southern." I didn't find it as noticeably bad as Hollywood

Southern often is, though. It was certainly not bad enough to interfere

with my enjoyment of the movie.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 14:42:08 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I haven't seen the film yet, but you might want to look at the novel,

which I just finished. Forrest uses invariant "be" quite frequently.

I didn't think this a common feature of white Alabamans of my generation

(I am not an Alabaman, but I grew up when Forrest did), though I should

chexck Crawford Feagin's book before I shoot off my electyroinic mouth again.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 14:44:09 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I'd like to see someone do a study of Hollywood dialects, southern and

other wise. Anyone working on this?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 15:56:32 -0500

From:  Khalil Walker  walkeba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I haven't read the book, but I can tell you with some degree of

certainty, as an Alabama native, that invarient "be" is not a common

feature in the speach of white Alabamians (at least not in the

east-central part of the state, where I'm from).



On Thu, 28 Jul 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:



  I haven't seen the film yet, but you might want to look at the novel,

  which I just finished. Forrest uses invariant "be" quite frequently.

  I didn't think this a common feature of white Alabamans of my generation

  (I am not an Alabaman, but I grew up when Forrest did), though I should

  chexck Crawford Feagin's book before I shoot off my electyroinic mouth again.

 

  Tim Frazer

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 16:56:43 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



  I haven't seen the film yet, but you might want to look at the novel,

  which I just finished. Forrest uses invariant "be" quite frequently.



I didn't notice it in the movie -- which leads me to believe that the

movie script was different since I think I would have noticed invariant

"be."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 17:46:41 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



According to my recollection also, there was no use of invariant be in

the movie.



I have had a chance now to glance at excerpts from the book and am

suprised not by the vast difference between the two (which is not an

uncommon reaction, as we all know) but by the fact that the movie, in

my humble opinion, outshines the book, and by no small measure. The Gump

that I see portrayed in the book is much less of an appealing or heroic

figure (in terms of character, not serendipitous achievement). So, if you

have been hesitating to see the film because you didn't like the book, you

may be in for a surprise.



The author does use a certain amount of eye dialect in representing Gump's

speech (and everyone else's as told through Gump's lips). Few r's are

dropped except for poor   po and New York   New Yawk. There's a lot of

jus for just, axed for asked, thowed for threw and that type of thing, and

the invariant be that has already been mentioned.



Again, one wonders just who is Winston Groom's audience and how much are

speech habits being customized for the sake of that audience. Winston Groom

is, I believe, an Alabama native. At any rate, he graduated from here (Univ.

of Alabama) and now lives down in Point Clear on the shores of Mobile Bay.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 18:06:41 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Upstate New York



The following contains information on dialects I want to check out, to

make sure I haven't made any gross errors.



Notes toward alt.soc.ny-upstate FAQ



1. Q: I'm visiting New York City from Europe, and want some advice.



A: Here's my advice -- learn something about American geography.

Upstate New York excludes New York City.



Try rec.travel.usa-canada for the information you want.



Upstate New York is defined in this group's charter as north of

Westchester [County] -- which is the county just north of New York

City. There are various definitions of where Upstate begins; but they

all definitely and completely exclude New York City.



Upstate New York is bordered on the west by Canada, Pennsylvania, and

New Jersey; on the south by Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Westchester

County; on the north by Canada; on the east by Vermont, Massachusetts,

and Connecticut.



It includes sparsely-populated rural areas -- for example, the

Adirondacks are said to have "More deer than Democrats." (Anyone know

if Republicans outnumber deer there?)



It also includes cities which would be major metropoli in most

American states.



Q: Is this newsgroup about the northeastern US?



I see you're in Amsterdam. What is that part of Germany like?



Q: So Upstate means the parts of New York State that don't want to be

confused with New York City?



A: No -- because that would include Staten Island, Queens, Brooklyn,

and parts of Manhattan.



2. Language: The New York City dialect doesn't extend into Upstate.

According to dialect maps, there are two dialects in Upstate New York

-- Hudson Valley and Upstate New York. (Dialecticians' definition of

Upstate New York also includes Long Island. Dialecticians have funny

ideas about geography, sometimes. And they use a lot of old data --

much of Long Island is suburban now, and speaks the New York City

dialect.)



Dutch was spoken till some time in the 19th Century in the Hudson

Valley and adjacent areas.



French Canadians have moved south from Quebec.



In the southern Catskills, the major immigrant languages of New York

City have been brought by people not completely melted down in the

melting pot.



Languages spoken in Buffalo include [If someone doesn't supply good

information, I just might say that Buffalo is full of people who

native language is Esperanto and who worship in Old Church High

Martian.]



3. Cultural history: Upstate was settled partly from New York City,

starting back when it was New Amsterdam. The Dutch legacy includes

the Dutch Reformed Church.



Nowhere near all the Dutch settlers were actually Dutch. For example,

New Paltz was settled by French-speaking Belgians from Germany. (The

original name was "Die Pfalz" -- German for The Rhineland.) Other

"Dutch" settlers were Huguenots, Germans, Frisians, etc.



There was also settlement from New England.



4. Religious history: One portion of Upstate New York spawned

Spiritualism, the Latter Day Saints (Mormons), and various other

religious groups -- some of them rather odd.



5. The Twilight Zone: Rod Serling, best known as host of The

Twilight Zone, was born and raised in Binghamton. [More data

requested, from people who know more.]



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 19:28:27 -0400

From:  Harlan Messinger  gusty[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLARK.NET 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I caught a blurb, I think it was on Entertainment Tonight, where they

showed Tom Hanks studying his diction with...the kid! He'd have the kid

speak lines and then repeat them until he felt he had it right. I don't

know what other kinds ofhelp he might have had.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 19:41:35 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I haven't read the novel nor seen the film, but I'm curious about the

representation of invariant *be* in the dialect of a white Alabaman. Is it

perhaps an attempt similar to what the scriptwriters of the film *Sergeant

York* put into Gary Cooper's mouth, as a representation of 1940's white

Tennessee speech?



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 18:40:25 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



Natalie says she didn't notice invariant "be" in the movie. That's not

too surprising, since screenwriters take great liberties with the text of

a source novel. I still think there's some connection between screen

dialect and literary dialect, but not the the point that the written

representation makes it to the screen.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Jul 1994 18:54:03 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



What i noticed about "Sgt. York" was the almost categorical use of

a-prefixing everytime there was present participle. It seemed way beyond

the constraints for a-prefixing that I;ve read about.



Some of the "Tenneseans" in that movie, including the old preacher played by

Walter Brennan, sound like the New Englanders in "Murder She wrote."



Tim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1994 to 28 Jul 1994

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 204 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Forrest Gump (8)

 2. movies

 3. Hollywood



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 11:10:21 -0500

From:  Alan Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



Concerning Tim Frazer's suggestion about someone working on Hollywood

dialects. I'd really like to get involved in a project of that nature, but

it seems better suited to a collaborative effort by several linguists who

could, perhaps, divide the material up by region, class, etc. Anyone

interested in doing such?



Alan Slotkin

ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 11:15:47 -0500

From:  Alan Slotkin  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I'm not sure what a-prefixing was like in Tennessee, especially around

Jamestown, in the early 1900s, but I do know that when I moved from South

Carolina to Cookeville (about 50 mi. from Alvin York's home) the amount of

a-prefixing I encountered was incredible. The Welcome Wagon person, for

example, said that she'd been a-drivin' all day, was a-fixin' to go to a

church supper that night, etc. There wasn't a sentence that didn't have an

a-prefixed pres. part. in it.



Alan Slotkin

ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 09:47:26 -0700

From:  Judith Rascoe  boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



BTW, if you want to see -- that is, hear -- an example of Hollywood southern

dialects run amok, check out the movie _The Chase_ at your local video store

(Not an easy item to find, but it is out there). It had an extraordinary

cast (Marlon Brando, Robert Redford, Jane Fonda, James Fox ... and Miriam

Hopkins!), and everybody seems to have made up his or her own version of a

southern accent.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 13:10:52 -0500

From:  Lana P Strickland  striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU 

Subject: movies



Another film to check out at the theaters this weekend is _The Client_.

There seems to be quite a few native-Southern speaking extras and the

big stars do fairly well. I was impressed by the fact that they seem to

differentiate New Orleans Southern from Tennessee Southern.



Lana Strickland

striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:42:45 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



On Fri, 29 Jul 1994, Alan Slotkin wrote:



  I'm not sure what a-prefixing was like in Tennessee, especially around

  Jamestown, in the early 1900s, but I do know that when I moved from South

  Carolina to Cookeville (about 50 mi. from Alvin York's home) the amount of

  a-prefixing I encountered was incredible. The Welcome Wagon person, for

  example, said that she'd been a-drivin' all day, was a-fixin' to go to a

  church supper that night, etc. There wasn't a sentence that didn't have an

  a-prefixed pres. part. in it.

 

  Alan Slotkin

  ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU

 

That's amazing. I didn't know anyone used it that much. Seems like in

Wolfram & Christian it was more resrticed, but I can't remember. gotta

check.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 14:46:09 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



On Fri, 29 Jul 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote:



  BTW, if you want to see -- that is, hear -- an example of Hollywood southern

  dialects run amok, check out the movie _The Chase_ at your local video store

  (Not an easy item to find, but it is out there). It had an extraordinary

  cast (Marlon Brando, Robert Redford, Jane Fonda, James Fox ... and Miriam

  Hopkins!), and everybody seems to have made up his or her own version of a

  southern accent.

 

It seems like they do. I know there are dialect coaches out there; in

fact one gave a paper at ADS several years ago and has a book. Can't

remember is name but a have a clipping about him somewhere. But a lot of

these actors don't seem to have had much coaching.



Compare the Paul Newman Long Hot Summer (1957) with the TV movie (1985?)

w Don Johnson. Judith Whatsername, of course, is I think a real southerner

(she was in the TV version). Viz. gthe wpomen on "Designing women."



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 17:30:56 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



A remark upon Alan Slotkin's observation of heavy a-prefixing near Sgt. York's

hometown: In the part of southern West Virginia where I grew up, I heard some

a-prefixing, but it was the mark of a *deepwoods* rube; town folks didn't say

it and looked down their noses at those who did. When I saw *Sgt. York* for

the first time just a year ago, I was struck by the a-prefixing as excessive,

artificial--and Hollywood. I'm impressed that it actually resonates with

Tennessee usage. Maybe Hollywood does get it right now & then!



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 15:38:21 CDT

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



No, I guess I'm not really ready for Tinsel Town isoglosses, though I

imagine it could be an interestinng study for anyone who wanted to devote

time to it. Interesting to the extent that it reveals how certain

varietal features become prominent for indexing purposes and then are

imitated in grossly inaccurate ways. Or, conversely, their presence in

prestige varieties or in one's one variety is totally ignored.



For example, though double modals are ubiquitous down here, I don't ever

recall hearing any actor incorporate one into Hollywood Southern. I just

think it would be lost on most Yankees who haven't indexed this and would

just interpret it to be a mistake or a repetition. Like the time Clinton

said "might could" during one of the debates. I'm sure it just flew right

by.



Well, I guess I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know, so

I'll depart from this exchange after one last comment.



Something that comes back to mind, what with all these movie titles mentioned

with links to the South, are the comments of some drama students that I

overheard at a campus play a few months ago. They were comparing notes on

relative success in supressing their Alabama speech traits so that they

could make it in acting. One had already decided that it was impossible and

that she would opt for a career in stage design in order to be able to stay

close to the theater. So, my question is (but I already know the answer),

why can't some of these people be given a chance to shine when it comes to

casting that `Southern' role? It happens so rarely (Sissy Spakek in Coal

Miner's Daughter) I'm talking about serious roles, mind you, not Hee Haw

foddor. They no longer keep African-Americans confined to minstrel

comedy (if it can be dignified with the name comedy) but they let them play

themselves. So, though white actors don't dare don black face, non Southern

actors think nothing of doing an atrocious parody of Southern speech and

behavior. I don't want to take anything away from Robin Wright's performance

in Forrest Gump--I think she showed a lot of talent--but I can't help myself

from thinking of these aspiring Alabama actresses that I overheard who will

likely never have a chance at their day in the sun. Maybe it's no big deal;

we'd probably all be a lot better off if we payed less attention, not more,

to the Tinsel. But as long as we were on the subject....



Mike Picone (Yankee-born, in case you're wondering)

University of Forrest Gump



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 20:24:04 EDT

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Hollywood



Two American Dialect Society members are dialect coaches in Hollywood. They

are teaming up to make two joint presentations at this year's ADS annual

meeting in San Diego; one is about "Dialect Coaching Along the

Spanish/English Axis."

 If you're studying dialects in the movies, you might find their inside

perspective useful. The program is in the May issue of the ADS newsletter;

more detail coming in September. Send me your s-mail address and I'll be glad

to send you a copy.

 Allan Metcalf, executive secretary, American Dialect Society

 aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



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Date:  Fri, 29 Jul 1994 21:30:05 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



I don't know why southern actors don't get a break, but they did on

"designing women" (OK, thats TV). I suspect Hollywood has had a

longstanding bias against southerners. But I don't know that for a fact.



Tim



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End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Jul 1994 to 29 Jul 1994

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There are 2 messages totalling 46 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Forrest Gump (2)



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Date:  Sat, 30 Jul 1994 08:17:35 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



On Fri, 29 Jul 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:



 I know there are dialect coaches out there; in

  fact one gave a paper at ADS several years ago and has a book. Can't

  remember is name but a have a clipping about him somewhere. But a lot of

  these actors don't seem to have had much coaching.



The dialect coach you are trying to remember is Allyn Partin. She has

given at least two talks at ADS annual meetings. Her husband makes

instructional tapes for various stage dialects: various American dialects

and British dialects as well as accents for non-native speakers speaking

English.



Other dialect coaches inhabit this part of the Southwest. Nearly to a

person they say that the dialect coach is to give a hint of dialect, not

a drop-dead imitation. Directors are afraid that too accurate a

portrayal will necessitate making subtitles for some dialects.

Cheers,

tlc



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Date:  Sat, 30 Jul 1994 22:51:02 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron  baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



And remember, while you're at it, who played Gunga Din.



dennis (aka dinesh) baron

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



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End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Jul 1994 to 30 Jul 1994

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There are 2 messages totalling 26 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Forrest Gump (2)



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Date:  Sun, 31 Jul 1994 08:53:25 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



Dinesh, my partner says the correct answer is, "Ask Vince Edwards."



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



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Date:  Sun, 31 Jul 1994 16:00:35 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Forrest Gump



is this about Dennis' Gunga Din stumper? The movie starrted Cary Grant,

Victor MdLaglen, Doug Fairbanks Jrs., Joan Fontaine, Sam jaffe and a

bunch of guys not so well known. I dnno who was Gunga. Sam Jaffe?



Tim



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End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jul 1994 to 31 Jul 1994

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