There is one message totalling 13 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Jesse Jackson: nasal levelling?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Jul 1995 12:08:12 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Jesse Jackson: nasal levelling?



When Jesse Jackson speaks, I think I'm hearing pre-stop nasals weakened,

and vowels before medial voiced stops lightly nasalized, so that medial

/d/ merges with /nd/. Is that a dialect feature -- and if so, what dialect

-- or is he just congested?



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1995 to 1 Jul 1995

***********************************************





There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Language in the Judicial Process: Issue 1 is Online



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 3 Jul 1995 21:21:44 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Language in the Judicial Process: Issue 1 is Online



Introducing LANGUAGE IN THE JUDICIAL PROCESS,

An Electronic Newsletter Now Available On The World Wide Web



*****



The editors of Language in the Judicial Process, an online newsletter

concerning linguistics and jurisprudence, are pleased to announce the

publication of the PREMIER ISSUE on the World Wide Web:



URL:  http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



To access LJP, you will need a World Wide Web browser (Netscape 1.1N

is recommended) and an Internet connection. (If you are not familiar with

the WWW, please contact your computing help center or online service

provider for details.)



If you are using Netscape, choose "Open Location..." from the File menu,

enter "http://hamlet.la.utk.edu" (without the quotes), and click the open

button.



If you are using Lynx, type "lynx http://hamlet.la.utk.edu" (no

quotes) from your system prompt.



Please direct e-mail correspondence regarding LJP to the editor, Bethany K.

Dumas  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jul 1995 to 3 Jul 1995

**********************************************





There is one message totalling 12 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Email in Oregon



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 4 Jul 1995 00:41:54 CDT

From:  Jeff Allen  jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU 

Subject: Email in Oregon



Does anyone know about free-net organizations in Portland and Eugene, Oregon

with access to the Internet?



Jeff Allen

jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]heartland.bradley.edu  OR jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jul 1995 to 4 Jul 1995

**********************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 59 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Dictionary Society (2)

 2. nerds (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Jul 1995 10:27:25 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Dictionary Society



Can anybody give me an e-mail address for the Dictionary Society

or Prof. Louis Milic? (A friend wrote to the address given in the

meeting announcement, but her letter bounced.)

Best,



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Jul 1995 19:16:57 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: nerds (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 1995 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT)

From: Todd Rose-Aimee  RTODD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PCMAIL.ONF.NFB-ONF.CA 

To: Stumper send e-mail  STUMPERS-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU 

Subject: nerds





One of our young filmmakers is researching a film on former nerds, i.e.

people who, as children or adolescents, were misfits and "geeks", but who

grew up to be outstanding in one field or other. She has located the people

she wants to interview, but she needs to situate the concept of "nerd"

historically. Does anyone know of any studies on the subject? I have

searched DIALOG databases but have had no luck. My understanding is that

she wants something serious but not full of professional jargon. Many

thanks/



Rose-Aimee Todd

Reference Library

National Film Board of Canada

Montreal

r.a.todd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nfb-onf.ca



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 5 Jul 1995 20:03:43 -0700

From:  kim mckinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Dictionary Society



Prof. Milic's e-mail address is: R0097[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vmcms.csuohio.edu



For some inexplicable reason, part of the address is missing on his stationery.



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jul 1995 to 5 Jul 1995

**********************************************





There is one message totalling 21 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. gender vocabulary



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Jul 1995 10:14:50 JST

From:  Daniel Long  dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP 

Subject: Re: gender vocabulary



Dennis and everyone else in ADSL-land,

    I'm replying (in spite of the fact that you've found my address)

because I thought some other people might be in a similar situation.

Sorry the reply took so long, I hadn't checked my mailbox for several days.



    With my e-mail software, everyone's return address appears

automatically (in addition to the ADS-L address). Didn't realize I had

been sending anonymous mail.  As Jesse Sheidlower says, if there are any

other people out there as unaware of how all of this computer stuff works

as I am, we're gonna have to start posting our addresses as part of the

text.



Danny Long

 dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp (Daniel Long)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Jul 1995 to 6 Jul 1995

**********************************************



Message 1:

From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Fri Jul 7 23:03 CDT 1995

Date:   Sat, 8 Jul 1995 00:00:39 -0400

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Jul 1995 to 7 Jul 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 



There are 5 messages totalling 145 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Faculty and Librarian (3)

 2. Bounced Mail

 3. acronyms, initialisms, and such



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 6 Jul 1995 23:48:42 -0700

From:  Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Faculty and Librarian



One of our librarians here has posted a query to me and I thought I would

pass it on the list and ask for practices on other campuses. The

"faculty" code applicable to librarians is being revised and the

librarians are finding themselves irritated by not being able to use a

"correct" usage that parallels faculty as a group noun. They see their

options as follows:

    librarian's code

    librarians' code

    librarian code

They prefer the third and wonder if others have had similar decisions to

make and what they chose (and how they defended it if they selected #3).

Cheers,

Gail

________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu          (206) 685-2384

English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA  98195-4330

________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Jul 1995 08:48:02 -0400

From:  John J Staczek  CAMJON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Faculty and Librarian



It's an interesting question of usage and style and one I have wokred

out the following way with dissertation writers and undergraduates,

according to practice in academic writing, for example: learner input,

student papers, investor options, faculty productivity, film-maker

creativity. It strikes me as a more readable and speakable formula.

John Staczek

Georgetown University

camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Jul 1995 15:54:13 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE OLD HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from M-W.COM

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 6299 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ----------------- Message in error (44 lines) --------------------------

  From: "E. W. Gilman"  egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m-w.com 

  Organization: Merriam-Webster, Inc.

  Date:     Fri, 7 Jul 1995 07:50:45 +0000

  Subject:    Re: Faculty and Librarian

 

  Date:     Thu, 6 Jul 1995 23:48:42 -0700

  From:     Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu 

  Subject:    Faculty and Librarian

 

  One of our librarians here has posted a query to me and I thought I would

  pass it on the list and ask for practices on other campuses. The

  "faculty" code applicable to librarians is being revised and the

  librarians are finding themselves irritated by not being able to use a

  "correct" usage that parallels faculty as a group noun. They see their

  options as follows:

      librarian's code

      librarians' code

      librarian code

  They prefer the third and wonder if others have had similar decisions to

  make and what they chose (and how they defended it if they selected #3).

  Cheers,

  Gail

  ________________________________________________________________________

  Gail Stygall  stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu          (206) 685-2384

  English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA  98195-4330

  ________________________________________________________________________

  Since "librarian" doesn't have a mass noun use like "faculty" does, a

  4th alternative occurs to me, that of using the plural as an

  attributive, producing "librarians code" on the analogy of "teachers

  college". Would this be suitable?

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Jul 1995 17:33:20 -0500

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: acronyms, initialisms, and such



I need references on

ACRONYMS

INITIALISMS

ABBREVIATIONS

and hybrid formations of such.



I seem to recall an article in a festschrift that I read in the early to

mid 1960s while still in grad school. I would hope that there are more

recent (defintional) studies of such critters.



Any suggested bibliographic items would be much appreciated. My current

interest is pretty much limited to English.



Thanks in advance.



Bob Wachal



robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 7 Jul 1995 21:41:15 -0400

From:  James C Stalker  stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Faculty and Librarian



      librarian's code

      librarians' code

      librarian code

 

The first means one librarian and the code belongs to the librarian.

The second means two (or more) librarians and the code belongs to all of them.

The third is a new development, maybe.



A good analogy might be secretary. They have settled on National Secretaries

Week. Plural, but not possessive.



Traditionally, faculty is noncount; secretary or librarian is count.



Now, how about the possessive problem: faculty code vs. faculty's code. Is the

first the code for the faculty imposed by someone else and the second a code

that the faculty imposed on themselves? Or do they mean the same thing (no

matter where the code came from) with the first being an attributive noun (or a

compound noun) and the second a possessive noun, that is different syntactic

structure, same meaning?



The best bet might be #3, on the grounds that librarian code in this case is to

be construed as a compound noun. Forget the faculty. They aren't much help

anyway.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Jul 1995 to 7 Jul 1995

**********************************************



From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Sat Jul 8 23:04 CDT 1995

Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu (uga.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.5]);

      by Archive.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.8.1/7.0m-FWP-MsState);

      id XAA28533; Sat, 8 Jul 1995 23:04:01 -0500

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2)

  with BSMTP id 9776; Sun, 09 Jul 95 00:02:03 EDT

Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7515; Sun, 9 Jul 1995 00:02:02 -0400

Message-Id:  199507090404.XAA28533[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Archive.MsState.Edu 

Date:   Sun, 9 Jul 1995 00:01:19 -0400

Reply-To: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Sender: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1995 to 8 Jul 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Content-Type: text

Content-Length: 2095

Status: R



There are 2 messages totalling 48 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. S'mores revisited (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 8 Jul 1995 13:07:41 CDT

From:  Jeff Allen  jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU 

Subject: S'mores revisited



A couple of months ago, someone asked what S'mores were. Quite a few

replies were posted. I was at the store the other day and picked up a

little brochure put together by Hershey's entitled "S'more Fun with

Hershey's". It gives the recipes for Indoor S'mores, Outdoor S'mores,

Sprinkle S'mores, Sundae S'mores, Cookie S'mores, S'mores Blond

Brownies, and Milk Chocolate Crispy Treats. Hershey's claims that they

invented the Original S'mores recipe.



I cannot remember who posted the query about S'mores, but if you want this

brochure, send me a message.



Jeff Allen

jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]heartland.bradley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 9 Jul 1995 11:13:49 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: S'mores revisited



On 8 July 1995, Jeff Allen wrote:



  A couple of months ago, someone asked what S'mores were. Quite a

  few replies were posted. I was at the store the other day and

  picked

  up a little brochure put together by Hershey's entitled "S'more Fun

  with Hershey's". It gives the recipes for Indoor S'mores, Outdoor

  S'mores, Sprinkle S'mores, Sundae S'mores, Cookie S'mores, S'mores

  Blond Brownies, and Milk Chocolate Crispy Treats. Hershey's claims

  that they invented the Original S'mores recipe.





I am pretty certain that the whole S'more string, however

interesting, was a mistake, given the character of the restaurant

from whose menu the query first arose. The dish in question was

probably some sort of sweetish, clove spiced SEMUR of Indian,

Malaysian, Singaporean, or Indonesian origin, not the gloppy graham

cracker sandwich dripping with chocolate and marshmallow.



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1995 to 8 Jul 1995

**********************************************





There are 20 messages totalling 388 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. KKK (3)

 2. S'mores revisited (2)

 3. "K" as symbol for "strikeout" (3)

 4. Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv (2)

 5. milk can dinner (3)

 6. Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv (fwd)

 7. Bodice-Ripper, etc. (fwd)

 8. ?in your dreams (fwd)

 9. Test Message -- Ignore

 10. ?Hung with a new rope (fwd) (2)

 11. Weird Bounced Mail from Comp



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 16:57:00 JST

From:  Daniel Long  dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP 

Subject: KKK



At 3:45 PM 95.6.30 -0400, Ellen Johnson wrote:

 Thanks to all who responded to my query.

 

 I had forgotten about the lavender linguistics conference. Does anyone

 have an address for it? I'm sure MK would be interested.

 

 Ellen Johnson

 ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 17:03:37 JST

From:  Daniel Long  dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP 

Subject: KKK



Baseball fans,

    The LA Dodgers new Japanese pitcher Hideo Nomo is on tv all the

time here, and when he gets a strikeout, fans line up big "K" letters. I

certainly don't remember this practice from when I was a kid and went to

Cardinals or Braves games. Does anyone know what the "K"s mean (is it for

"kill"?) and when and how this got started?



Thanks,

Danny Long

dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp (Daniel Long)



P.S. Sorry for the botched mail that went out before this.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:23:17 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: S'mores revisited



I am glad this topic came up some more. Last week on two occasions I was

sitting at my mother-in-law's house in need of something sweet to eat after

dinner. Seeing chocolate graham crackers and a bag of marshmallows, I put

eight of the latter on one of the former, sprinkled them all with Nestle's

Quick, and popped the concoction into the microwave until the marshmallows

swelled up and rolled off the cracker. The marshmallows were almost as

chewy as bubble gum, but I enjoyed my dessert. A couple of days later, I

substituted Hershey's chocolate syrup for the Nestle's Quick, left the

concoction in the microwave for half as much time, and enjoyed the whole

mess a whole lot more.



See, Tim, I do eat low cuisine,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:11:16 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: S'mores revisited



Eeeek. Microwave smores. A travesty.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:17:54 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: "K" as symbol for "strikeout"



      The LA Dodgers new Japanese pitcher Hideo Nomo is on tv all the

  time here, and when he gets a strikeout, fans line up big "K" letters. I

  certainly don't remember this practice from when I was a kid and went to

  Cardinals or Braves games. Does anyone know what the "K"s mean (is it for

  "kill"?) and when and how this got started?



"K" is the standard symbol used by scorers to record a strikeout.

The practice is alleged to have begun in the 1860s by New York Herald

baseball writer M.J. Kelly. He used the last letter of "struck (out)"

since "S" was already used for "sacrifice."



Jesse "I hate baseball, myself" Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:20:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv



Help, Natalie, or somebody. I got some weird bounced mail from this

address with my last posting: -maiser-[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpphl.mhs.compuserve.com.



Help,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 09:42:58 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv



  Help, Natalie, or somebody. I got some weird bounced mail from this

  address with my last posting: -maiser-[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpphl.mhs.compuserve.com.



So did I. It's unlike any bounces I've seen before (and I've seen many

thousands of bounces from the three lists I run). I'm not even sure which

of our two Compuserve subscribers the problem was with. Let's hope the

problem just goes away by itself. If not, I'll try to find out from

Compuserve what the error message means or, if that fails, will delete

the Compuserve subscribers -- or recommend to them if they happen to live

in a large city that they should find out whether Netcom is available.

Netcom seems to be by far the best commerical service. If I ever leave

academia, I'm going to make sure I move to a Netcom city (unless other

services have come along by then that are just as good and just as

inexpensive).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:04:12 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "K" as symbol for "strikeout"



And remember that a backwards K (sorry, no ascii character) represents a called

strike-out.  That's just for scorecards, though; the K banners for strike-out

pitchers neutralize all whiffs to the canonical (forward) representation. As

for when those banners began, I'm not sure, but the first ones I recall date

back to the heyday of Dwight ("Doc") Gooden in the mid-1980's for the Mets.

(If I'm not mistaken, his nickname is itself a truncation from the full form

Doctor K [based on the basketball star Julius "Doctor J" Erving], where of

course the K is yet again for strikeouts.)

 Much more than anyone wanted to know about K's, I'm sure.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 08:35:30 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tincup.cxo.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: "K" as symbol for "strikeout"



I've noticed that after the pitcher gets his third strikeout and before he gets

his fourth, the TV cameras do not display the string of K's. In deference to

the Klan I suspect.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 11:18:11 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: milk can dinner



Is anyone familiar with the term "milk can dinner" (or "milk can supper")?

If so, will you give the what, when, and where? Thanks.



Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:26:15 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: milk can dinner



 Is anyone familiar with the term "milk can dinner" (or "milk can supper")?

 If so, will you give the what, when, and where? Thanks.

 

 Joan Hall, DARE



I wonder if this use of "can" is related to the use of "pail" in "lunch

pail," the term we used as kids in Texas for what others call a "lunch

kit," although somewhere I've heard the term "lunch bucket." Sour bologna

was bad enough in a metal box with a latched lid. Taking lunch in an

actual pail or bucket sounds somehow depressing. You could get a lot of

food in a milk can, however.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:22:15 -0400

From:  David Muschell  dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: KKK



 Baseball fans,

     The LA Dodgers new Japanese pitcher Hideo Nomo is on tv all the

 time here, and when he gets a strikeout, fans line up big "K" letters. I

 certainly don't remember this practice from when I was a kid and went to

 Cardinals or Braves games. Does anyone know what the "K"s mean (is it for

 "kill"?) and when and how this got started?

 

 Thanks,

 Danny Long

 dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp (Daniel Long)

 

Maybe it relates to K.O., from boxing (knock out).

David



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 14:33:17 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv (fwd)



I got the same message on my S'more revisited message to ads-l.



Jeff Allen



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 10:20:37 -0400

From: Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Weird Bounced Mail from Compuserv



Help, Natalie, or somebody. I got some weird bounced mail from this

address with my last posting: -maiser-[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpphl.mhs.compuserve.com.



Help,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:19:00 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Bodice-Ripper, etc. (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 06 Jul 1995 21:59:41 -0400 (EDT)

From: Fred Shapiro  shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu 

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: Bodice-Ripper, etc.



Can anyone supply any examples of the usage of the term "bodice-ripper"

(an explicit romantic novel) earlier than December 1980? Also, any

examples of the usage of the term "happy-clappy" (of evangelical

Christians) earlier than 1990? Also, any pre-1970 examples of the phrase

"listen up!"? Finally, any pre-1957 examples of the phrase "go the extra

mile"?



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+ Fred R. Shapiro               Editor            +

+ Associate Librarian for Public Services   OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN +

+ Yale Law School               LEGAL QUOTATIONS       +

+ e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu    (Oxford University Press)   +

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:31:57 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: ?in your dreams (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 07 Jul 1995 09:55:43 -0500 (CDT)

From: F Grant Geiger  fgeiger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cwis.unomaha.edu 

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?in your dreams



We have a patron who wants to know the origin of the phrase "in your

dreams.' We have exhausted our supply of unabridged dictionaries, OED,

phrase books, slang dictionaries, and ourselves! We are of the opinion

that the phrase is self-explanatory and probably has no origin or history.

But in an effort to go the extra mile, we are asking Stumpers for any

input before we admit defeat. As always, any assistance is greatly

appreciated.



Sherry F. at Omaha Public Library (NE)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 18:57:13 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Test Message -- Ignore



Sorry about the clutter. I want to see whether I get one of the strange

compuserve bounces with this posting.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 19:36:31 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: ?Hung with a new rope (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:29 -0600 (CST)

From: Sworsky Felicia  FELICIA.MLBMHS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhsgate.mlb.ilstu.edu 

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?Hung with a new rope



Local idiom presents almost as many frustrations as quotations,

in my opinion, and this expression has me and my colleague

at wit's end: You'd complain if you were hung with a new rope.



We have checked innumerable dictionaries of slang and of

regional English without a hint of origin and / or meaning.

Anyone out there recognize this? All help is welcomed, as

usual, and thanks a bushel and a peck (bananas, grapes,

whatever . . .) in advance! Felicia

`````````````````````````````````````````````````

Felicia G. Sworsky, Alliance Library System (IL) Reference Services

felicia[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhsgate.mlb.ilstu.edu

voice: 309-438-2771, or within Illinois: 800-409-2771

Fax: 309-438-3476, or within Illinois: 800-731-3036



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 22:08:19 -0400

From:  James C Stalker  stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Weird Bounced Mail from Comp



I got the same bounced mail. I assumed that there was a glitch somewhere.

Interesting, though, I was not intending to put the message on the ADS list. I

was trying to send it privately, assuming that my comments would not be of

general interest.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 22:18:55 -0400

From:  James C Stalker  stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: milk can dinner



 

  I wonder if this use of "can" is related to the use of "pail" in "lunch

  pail," the term we used as kids in Texas for what others call a "lunch

  kit," although somewhere I've heard the term "lunch bucket." Sour bologna

  was bad enough in a metal box with a latched lid. Taking lunch in an

  actual pail or bucket sounds somehow depressing. You could get a lot of

  food in a milk can, however.

 

 

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

 

Verrry interesting for a Texan to use a "pail."  Aren't Texans supposed to

fall within the old S. Midland group, hence bucket people rather than pail

people? In KY in the 50's lunch bucket was common, but only for grown-ups.

Kids used lunch boxes or bags. I guess some might have used the Shedd's peanut

butter buckets, but I don't remember any at Penile Elementary School.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 23:51:15 -0400

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: ?Hung with a new rope (fwd)



It's a common expression to me (Amherst MA) and refers to a constant

complainer.



David R. Carlson



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1995 to 10 Jul 1995

***********************************************



Message 1:

From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Tue Jul 11 23:09 CDT 1995

Date:   Wed, 12 Jul 1995 00:01:07 -0400

From: Automatic digest processor  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1995 to 11 Jul 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 



There are 7 messages totalling 712 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ?Hung with a new rope (fwd) (2)

 2. ADS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1995 to 10 Jul 1995

 3. milk can dinner

 4. NEH action again

 5. For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like"

 6. nerds (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 10 Jul 1995 22:11:44 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: ?Hung with a new rope (fwd)



I recognize it, but I'll be jiggered if I know where I became familiar

with it. it sounds like something I would have hear from my grandfather

wh died in 1945, b. in Wisconsin in 1864. But that is not for certain, by

any manner of means.



Joe monda



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:02:30 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1995 to 10 Jul 1995



James Stalker:

 

  I wonder if this use of "can" is related to the use of "pail" in "lunch

  pail," the term we used as kids in Texas for what others call a "lunch

  kit," although somewhere I've heard the term "lunch bucket." Sour bologna

  was bad enough in a metal box with a latched lid. Taking lunch in an

  actual pail or bucket sounds somehow depressing. You could get a lot of

  food in a milk can, however.

 



Wayne Glowka:



Verrry interesting for a Texan to use a "pail."  Aren't Texans supposed to

fall within the old S. Midland group, hence bucket people rather than pail

people? In KY in the 50's lunch bucket was common, but only for grown-ups.

Kids used lunch boxes or bags. I guess some might have used the Shedd's peanut

butter buckets, but I don't remember any at Penile Elementary School.



******************************************************************************



Depends *where* in Texas...When I was in graduate school in Texas, the

informal surveys we did suggested that Texas is fairly well split. It's been a

while, but I recall that the real Southern/South Midlands features were only

found in East and North-east Texas (areas bordering on Arkansas, Louisiana).

 From San Antonio south through the Rio Grande Valley (and Mexican border), we

got a lot of pure northern forms; the port of Galveston was a big deal in the

19th century, with major connections with eastern and northeastern cities, as

well as Europe.



Myself, I've never heard of a lunch kit or a lunch bucket; lunch pail sounds

regional. We just had lunch boxes in suburban NY. I must have had a deprived

childhood.  grin 



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 08:21:36 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: milk can dinner



 Verrry interesting for a Texan to use a "pail."  Aren't Texans supposed to

 fall within the old S. Midland group, hence bucket people rather than pail

 people? In KY in the 50's lunch bucket was common, but only for grown-ups.

 Kids used lunch boxes or bags. I guess some might have used the Shedd's peanut

 butter buckets, but I don't remember any at Penile Elementary School.



I would eat or drink something that came in a pail, but would feed or water

animals or carry dirt in a bucket. My father's mother's family came from

Georgia and North Alabama.



Interesting note for Central Georgia: people in the building industry

refer to the big scoop on a backhoe or a caterpillar as a "bucket." By the

way, around here an earth mover is called (and spelled) a "dozier" (with a

voiced alveolopalatal fricative) and spelled that way. I have always said

"bull dozer."











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 07:56:29 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: ?Hung with a new rope (fwd)



I've heard that one, but not recently. Reference is to someone who

complains about everything.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

On Mon, 10 Jul 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



  ---------- Forwarded message ----------

  Date: Mon, 10 Jul 1995 13:29 -0600 (CST)

  From: Sworsky Felicia  FELICIA.MLBMHS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhsgate.mlb.ilstu.edu 

  To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

  Subject: ?Hung with a new rope

 

  Local idiom presents almost as many frustrations as quotations,

  in my opinion, and this expression has me and my colleague

  at wit's end: You'd complain if you were hung with a new rope.

 

  We have checked innumerable dictionaries of slang and of

  regional English without a hint of origin and / or meaning.

  Anyone out there recognize this? All help is welcomed, as

  usual, and thanks a bushel and a peck (bananas, grapes,

  whatever . . .) in advance! Felicia

  `````````````````````````````````````````````````

  Felicia G. Sworsky, Alliance Library System (IL) Reference Services

  felicia[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhsgate.mlb.ilstu.edu

  voice: 309-438-2771, or within Illinois: 800-409-2771

  Fax: 309-438-3476, or within Illinois: 800-731-3036

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 18:47:13 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: NEH action again



This is a short message, followed by a long directory, from our Washington

connection the National Humanities Alliance. I post it for the same reasons

as before: NEH funding is significant to our field in the U.S.; and whatever

your view, you might want to make it heard while it is timely. The directory

might also be of interest. - Allan Metcalf



**************************************

11 July 1995



MEMORANDUM



TO: NHA Members and Friends

=46R: John Hammer and Cuc Vu

RE: Alert on Upcoming Vote on NEH Budget in the House



REQUESTED ACTION: Telephone calls from constituents to swing voters on NEH

in the Interior Appropriations bill are needed. The swing voter list has

been developed from voting records in the 103rd Congress and a key vote

last spring on increasing the rescission for the arts endowment (for

freshmen members only last spring's vote is available). The list is

imperfect but nonetheless a useful guide to where votes can be captured.

To aid in identifying member=A9constituents who might make telephone calls,

we have included a selection of higher education institutions in each

Congressional district.



MESSAGE: Support the Appropriations Committee recommendations for the

endowments. Please to not support amendments that would further reduce

budgets or in other ways weaken the endowments.



BACKGROUND: On June 29, the Appropriations Committee decided upon a budget

levels for the two endowments of $99.5 million, a reduction of 42% for NEH

and 39% for NEA. While these are not great numbers, if the House votes for

a FY96 Interior budget that includes these sums for NEH and NEA (and IMS is

in for $21 million), the possibility of emerging from a conference with

something closer to present levels ($177 million for NEH, $167 million for

NEA) is significantly improved.



Today, the House Rules Committee will act upon a request from Ralph Regula

(R-OH 16th) for a waiver on the rules for debate on the FY1996

appropriations bill for Interior and Related Agencies. If granted, the

waiver will mean that the endowments can not be removed from the budget on

a point of order that they are not authorized. A factor favoring the

committee acting favorably is that the Bureau of Land Management is also

not authorized and therefore must have a waiver. The fact that Mr. Regula

is requesting the waiver, which will be accompanied by a letter of support

from Rep. William Goodling (R-PA 19th) the chair of the authorizing

committee, is a significant step forward for the endowments. Also. a GOP

staffer says that Rep. Robert Livingston (R-LA 1st), the appropriations

chair, "does not object" to Mr. Regula's seeking the waiver. While one

suspects that a deal has already been struck, the absence due to health

problems of the ranking minority member Joseph Moakley (D-MA 9th) could

affect the outcome. If the Rules Committee does not agree to the waiver,

the telephone calls (and message) are still needed.



Three appropriations bills are scheduled to go to the House floor this week

beginning on Wednesday: Energy, Interior, and Agriculture. The earliest

the interior would be taken up is probably Thursday. At least three

amendments affecting the endowments are expected: Joel Hefley (R-CO 5th)

would terminate NEH, Phil Crane (R-IL 8th) would terminate the arts

endowment (this bill has been offered annually since the late 1980s), and

Cliff Stearns (R-FL 6th) to further cut the endowment budgets, probably by

10% this year.



As possible, we at the National Humanities Alliance are interested in

learning about contacts made on this issue. Please

        telephone at 202/296-4994;

        Fax at 202/872-0884; or

        e-mail: jhammer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org

         or : cuc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org

___________________________________________________________________________

HOUSE SWING VOTES - HOUSE SWING VOTES - HOUSE SWING VOTES





STATE & NAME & PHONE             SCHOOLS IN DISTRICT

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D



*ARIZONA*



John Shadegg (R-AZ-4)             Arizona St. Univ. West

202-225-3361                 Gran Canyon Univ.

                       Southwestern College

                       Western Int'l Univ.



Jim Kolbe (R-AZ-5)              Cochise College

202-225-2542                 Eastern Arizona College

                       Tucson College

                       University of Arizona



*CALIFORNIA*



Brian Billbray (R-CA-49)           CA Western School of Law

202-225-2040                 National University

                       Pt. Loma Nazarene College

                       San Diego Mesa College

                       UC, San Diego

                       University of San Diego

                       Western St. U. College of



Law of San Diego



*CONNECTICUT*



Gary Franks (R-CT-5)             Western Connecticut St.U.

202-225-3822





*FLORIDA*



E. Clay Shaw, Jr. (R-FL-22)          Talmudic College of FL

202-225-3026





*ILLINOIS*



Michael Flanagan (R-IL-5)           City Colleges of Chicago

202-225-4061                 Wilbur Wright College

                       Illinois Inst. of Tech

                       Morton College

                       Southeastern Illinois U.



William Lipinsky (D-IL-3)           City Colleges of Chicago

202-225-5701                  Richard Daley College



Glenn Poshard (D-IL-19)            Eastern Illinois Univ.

202-225-5201                 Lake Land College

                       Millikin Univ.

                       Southeastern IL College



Thomas Ewing (R-IL-15)            Governors St. Univ.

202-225-2371                 Illinois St. Univ.

                       Illinois Wesleyan Univ.

                       Olivet Nazarene Univ.

                       Parkland College

                       U of IL Central Office

                       U of IL, Urbana-Champaign



Ray LaHood (R-IL-18)             Bradley Univ.

202-225-6201                 Eureka College

                       Illinois Central College

                       Illinois College

                       Lincoln Christian College

                       Lincoln College

                       MacMurray College

                       Midstate College



John Edward Porter (R-IL-10)         Barat College

202-225-4835                 Finch U of Health Sciences,

                        The Chicago Medical School

                       Lake Forest College

                       Trinity College



*INDIANA*



Lee H. Hamilton (D-IN-9)           Hanover College

202-225-5315                 Indiana U. Southeast

                       St Meinrad College

                       St Meinrad School of Theology



*IOWA*



Jim Nussle (R-IA-1)              Cornell College

202-225-2911                 Mount Mercy College

                       Mount St. Clare College

                       St. Ambrose Univ.

                       Teikyo Marycrest Univ.

                       University of Iowa



Greg Ganske (R-IA-4)             Drake Univ.

202-225-4426                 Grand View College

                       State Board of Regents



*KANSAS*



Jan Meyers (R-KS-3)              Baker Univ.

202-225-2865                 Donnelly College

                       U of Kansas Main Campus

                       U of Kansas Medical Ctr



*KENTUCKY*



Harold Rogers (R-KY-5)            Alice Lloyd College

202-225-4601                 Lees College

                       Sue Bennett College

                       Union College



*LOUISIANA*



Bob Livingston (R-LA-1)            Loyola University

202-225-3015                 Notre Dame Seminary, Grad

                        School of Theology

                       Southeastern LA Univ



James A. Hayes (D-LA-7)            Louisiana St U, Eunice

202-225-2031                 McNeese St Univ

                       Remington College

                       Univ. of Southwestern LA



*MAINE*



Jim Longley (R-ME-1)             Andover College

202-225-6116                 Bowdoin College

                       Colby College

                       Maine College of Art

                       Saint Joseph's College

                       Thomas College

                       Unity College

                       U of Maine, Augusta

                       U of New England

                       U of Southern Maine

                       Westbrook College



*MARYLAND*



Robert Ehrlich, Jr. (R-MD-2)         Goucher College

202-225-3061                 Towson St Univ





*MICHIGAN*



James Barcia (D-MI-5)             Delta College

202-225-8171                 Saginaw Valley St U



Lynn Rivers (D-MI-13)             Cleary College

202-225-6261                 U of Michigan, Ann Arbor



Joseph Knollenberg (R-MI-11)         Saint Mary's College

202-225-5802                 William Tyndale College



David Camp (R-MI-4)              Central Michigan U

202-225-3561



=46rederick S. Upton (R-MI-6)          Andrews Univ

202-225-3761                 Kalamazoo College

                       Southwestern MI College

                       Western Michigan Univ.



Dick Chrysler (R-MI-8)            Michigan St Univ

202-225-4872                 Thomas Colley Law School





*MINNESOTA*



Gil Gutknecht (R-MN-1)            Bethany Lutheran College

202-225-2472                 Carleton College

                       Mankato St Univ

                       Mayo Foundation

                       St Mary's College of MN

                       St Olaf College

                       Winona State Univ



Jim Ramstad (R-MN-3)             Medical Institute of MN

202-225-2871                 Rasmussen College

                       Alfred Adler Institute



*MISSOURI*



Harold L. Volkmer (D-MO-9)          Columbia College

202-225-2956                 Culver-Stockton College

                       Northeast MO St Univ

                       Stephens College

                       U of Missouri, Columbia

                       Westminster College

                       William Woods Univ



*NEBRASKA*



Doug Bereuter (R-NE-1)            Dana College

202-225-4806                 Doane College

                       Midland Lutheran College

                       NE St College System

                       Nebraska Wesleyan Univ

                       Union College

                       U of Nebraska

                       U of Nebraska, Lincoln

                       Wayne St College

                       York College





*NEVADA*



John Ensign (R-NV-1)             U of Nevada, Las Vegas

202-225-5965





*NEW JERSEY*



Bob Franks (R-NJ-7)             Westminster Choir College

202-225-5361                  of Rider Univ



Rod Frelinghuysen (R-NJ-11)         Caldwell College

202-225-5034                 College of St Elizabeth

                       Drew Univ

                       Seton Hall Univ



Jim Saxton (R-NJ-3)             NONE

202-225-4765



=46rank A. LoBiondo (R-NJ-2)          Rowan College

202-225-6572                 Richard Stockton College



Bill Martini (R-NJ-8)            Bloomfield College

202-225-5751                 Montclair St Univ

                       William Paterson College



Robert Andrews (D-NJ-1)           Rutgers U, Camden Campus

202-225-6501





*NEW MEXICO*



Steven Schiff (R-NM-1)            U of NM Main Campus

202-225-6316





*NEW YORK*



Sue W. Kelly (R-NY-19)            CUNY, Lehman College

202-225-5441                 Fordham Univ

                       Monroe College

                       Pace Univ, Briarcliff

                       SUNY, Maritime College

                       The King's College

                       US Military Academy



*NORTH CAROLINA*



Charles Taylor (R-NC-11)           Brevard College

202-225-6401                 U of NC, Asheville

                       Western Carolina Univ



Cass Ballenger (R-NC-10)           Lenoir-Rhyne College

202-225-2576





*NORTH DAKOTA*



Earl Pomeroy (D-ND-At Lg)           Bismark St College

202-225-2611                 Dickinson St Univ

                       Jamestown College

                       Mayville St Univ

                       Minot St Univ

                       ND St U Main Campus

                       ND St U, Bottineau

                       U of ND Main Campus

                       U of ND, Lake Region





*OHIO*



David Hobson (R-OH-7)             Air Force Inst of Tech

202-225-4324                 Antioch Univ

                       Central St Univ

                       Ohio U, Lancaster Campus

                       The Ohio St U, Marion

                       Urbana Univ

                       Wilberforce Univ

                       Wittenberg Univ

                       Wright St U Main Campus



Martin Hoke (R-OH-10)             The Ohio St U, Newark

202-225-5871



Steven C. LaTourette (R-OH-19)        Cleveland College of

                        Jewish Studies

                       Kent St U, Ashtabula

                       Lake Erie College

                       Saint Mary Seminary

                       Ursuline College



Michael G. Oxley (R-OH-4)           Mt Vernon Nazarene

202-225-2676                 Northwestern College

                       Ohio Northern Univ

                       The Ohio St U, Lima

                       The Ohio St U, Mansfield

                       The U of Findlay





*OREGON*



Jim Bunn (R-OR-5)               Oregon St Univ

202-225-5711                  Western Oregon St College

                        Willamette Univ



*PENNSYLVANIA*



Jim Greenwood (R-PA-8)             Delaware Valley College

202-225-4276



Tim Holden (D-PA-6)              Albright College

202-225-5546                  Alvernia College

                        Kutztown U of PA

                        Penn St U, Berks

                        Penn St U, Schuylkill



Paul Kanjorsky (D-PA-11)            Bloomsburg Univ

202-225-6511                  Penn St U, Hazleton

                                Penn St U,

Wilkes-Barre

                                Wilkes Univ



Philip S. English (R-PA-21)           Allegheny College

202-225-5406                  Edinboro Univ

                        Gannon Univ

                        Mercyhurst College

                        Penn St U, Shenango

                        Penn St U, Erie Behrend

                        Slippery Rock Univ

                        Thiel College

                        Univ of

Pittsburgh,Titusville Campus



Jon D. Fox (R-PA-13)              Antonelli Institute of

202-225-6111                    Art & Photography

                        Beaver College

                        Gwynedd-Mercy College

                        Penn St U, Ogontz

                        Ursinus College

                        Westminster Theological Semi=

nary



Curt Weldon (R-PA-7)              Cabrini College

202-225-2011                  Cheyney Univ of Penn

                        Haverford College

                        Immaculate College

                        Penn Inst of Technology

                        Penn St U, Delaware Cty

                        Swarthmore College

                        Villanova Univ



*TEXAS*



Chet Edwards (D-TX-11)             Baylor Univ

202-225-6105                  Central Texas College

                        Hill College

                        Paul Quinn College

                        Texas St Tech College

                        U of Central Texas

                        U of Mary Hardin-Baylor



Solomon P. Ortiz (D-TX-27)           Texas A&M, Corpus Christi

202-225-7742                  Texas A&M, Kingsville

                        Texas Southmost College

                        Texas St Tech College

                        U of Texas, Brownsville



*UTAH*



William H. Orton (D-UT-3)            Brigham Young Univ

202-225-7751                   College of Eastern Utah

                         Utah Valley St College



*VIRGINIA*



Owen B. Pickett (D-VA-2)             Commonwealth College

202-225-4215                   Norfolk St Univ

                         Old Dominion Univ

                         Regent Univ

                         Virginia Wesleyan College



Thomas M. Davis, III (R-VA-11)         Northern Virginia

202-225-1492                  Community College





=46rank R. Wolf (R-VA-10)             George Mason Univ

202-225-5136                  Shenandoah Univ





*WISCONSIN*



Scott Klug (R-WI-2)               Edgewood College

202-225-2906                  U of Wisconsin Centers

                        U of Wisconsin Sys Office

                        U of Wisconsin, Madison





[Total =3D 50 members]







  Cuc Vu

  National Humanities Alliance

  21 Dupont Circle, N.W. Suite 800

  Washington, D.C.  20036

   (202) 296-4994

   Internet: cuc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 16:17:26 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tincup.cxo.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like"



This showed up in another conference. If you haven't seen it, you, being

dialectologists, might get a chuckle out of it.



-- Jim

Attachment

---------------------------





  (By Alice Kahn, San Francisco Chronicle)



                 ============



    I'm all, "When did people start talking this way?"



    So I call my friend George Lakoff, the, you know, LINGUIST? And

  he's all, "What is 'all' doing there? It's not your everyday 'all'."



    But the teenagers I know, they're all, "Ohmygod, this is how we, you

  know, TALK?"

    And like this girl I know, Tamar, she went to the University of

  Vermont last year and during orientation this girl from the South is

  all, "Hi, you all," And Tamar, she's all, "I'm about to ask her if

  she's from the South because she has this Southern ACCENT? And she's

  all, 'Are you from California?' And I'm all, 'How did you know?' And

  she's all, 'By the way you say "all" instead of "said".' And I'm all,

  'Ohmygod.'"



    So I like call this other linguist, Geoff Nunberg, he's on like NPR

  and he's all, "It's used in the narrative present," and I'm all,

  "Really?"



    And then he's all, "New verbs for 'say' come like every thousand

  years and suddenly we have three at once."



    He's talking about "like" and "go", which some people say instead

  of "all".



    He's like, "What happened 15 or so years ago that led to three new

  verbs?" And I go, "You don't think people got, you know, DUMBER?"



    Then, this is so totally weird, I get this like LETTER? And it's

  from this guy Dave Reynolds who's a student at Del Amigo High School

  in, you know, DANVILLE? And he sends me this Slang Dictionary he and

  his friends wrote and there on Page 2 they're all: "He's all: a

  phrase used instead of he said... example: And then he's all, 'Hi

  there!'"



    And then on the next line they're like, "He goes: same as 'He's

  all.'"



    And I'm like, "Dave, do you talk this way?" and he's all, "I

  don't say it that much, but when teenagers are talking with their

  friends they say it. And people I know, their mothers talk that way."



    So I go, "What do you think of mothers who talk that way?" and

  Dave's all, "They sound more worldly. They listen to their kids and

  communicate with them more."



    And then I'm all, "Groovy." And then Dave blows my mind by saying

  he's even heard people say "like" plus "all"! and I'm all, "Like give

  me an example," and he goes, "He's like all, 'I want to break up with

  you.'"



    And I'm like all, "Yeah, I've heard that, for sure."



    So then I'm all, "Dave, how come you don't have the word 'chill' in

  your slang dictionary?" because I've been chillin' with Dave on the

  phone for a while now and I like want to show him I'm worldly. So Dave

  goes, "It's used so much it's really not slang."



    Is he clownin' me? Then I'm all, "Well, how come 'groovy' is in

  the slang dictionary?"



    And he's all, "That's a comic term because it's so old."



    And I like go all, "Oh."



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 11 Jul 1995 20:52:21 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: nerds (fwd)



 You could start with the "Revenge Of The Nerds" movies. There's often a

fine line between truth and fiction. Or the Lisa and Todd sketches on Sa-

turday Night Live. Most studies of nerds you'll probably find in the media;

IMHO the nerd is primarily a media creation based on a grain of truth.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1995 to 11 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 115 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. English-only Amendments (4)

 2. KKK (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 08:47:00 CDT

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 

Subject: English-only Amendments



Against my better judgment, I've agreed to do a workshop for this year's progra

m on racial and ethnic harmony at KSU. My topic is going to be the English-onl

y movement, and how such an amendment would affect large segments of the popula

tion in this country. Now, does anyone know how many states have already passe

d amendments to their constitutions declaring English to be the "official" lang

uage there? Can anyone provide a list of those states? And does anyone have a

ny particularly juicy horror stories that have resulted from the passing of suc

h amendments? Thanks in advance for any help you can provide. (If, by the way

, anyone can provide any more recent bibliographic cites than, say, Dennis Baro

n's 1990 book from Yale UP, I'd be grateful for them as well.)



           --Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:24:29 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: English-only Amendments



Here in Georgia this past year the Legislature did pass an English as

Official Language bill. It was sold as a money-saving measure, so that

ballots and other public documents would only have to be printed in

English. There was a huge uproar, from the usual places but also because

many people claimed that it would be a horrible sign of unfriendliness

just before the Olympics camme here in 1996. There were also prominent

supporters, including the most influential political commentator in the

state (he thought that if his foreign-born wife could learn English, every

other immigrant should also be able to). In the end Governor Zell Miller

(sometime buddy of Bill Clinton) vetoed the bill, not as a matter of

principle but because of a technical problem that his staff found with the

language of the law.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:30:34 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: English-only Amendments



English is now the official language in Georgia. I was hoping to get more

information on the legislative arguments by having a student do a term

paper on the law, but the Macon and Atlanta papers never printed much

detail--probably because no one cared enough to make an interesting stink.

I thought that it would be fun to examine legislative speeches about

official English for solecisms, barbarisms, and the like (a la Sledd's old

article on bidialectalism in the service of Big Brother). But we had no

such luck with our local resources.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 10:32:07 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: English-only Amendments



Please withdraw my former statement. Bill knows what he is talking about.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 18:40:52 -0400

From:  Douglas Mazanec  MAZMAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM 

Subject: Re: KKK



As a former little league player and weekend softwall warrior (and

on the receiving end of a few KKK's), the K is simply shorthand for

a striKeout. Baseball is full of acronyms such as RBI's (runs batted in)

and others.



Hope my answer is a hit with you,



Doug Mazanec

aka Mazman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com

copywriter



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 12 Jul 1995 19:06:00 EST

From:  CAG  cag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AM.OUP-USA.ORG 

Subject: Re: KKK



I used to wonder about this myself. But I have since learned that the K

is the symbol for STRIKEOUT used by those who keep track of such things

during a "fast-moving" game. These folks jot down every play of the game

in a special program.



cathy



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jul 1995 to 12 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 14 messages totalling 396 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. oj trial (12)

 2. For "he says", like "he's all" . . .

 3. Electronic Dictionary



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:55:51 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: oj trial



I heard an nth-hand report that the attorneys in the OJ trial and Judge Ito

clashed yesterday over a prosecution question about whether some witness

overheard someone "who sounded black." I haven't got a NY Times today and

was out of touch most of yesterday (hey, it's hot here). Can anybody fill

me in? I've got a student doing some research on Ebonics and this incident

sounds like something he could get his teeth into.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:27:09 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



My wife, the OJ addict, was compelling me to watch reruns of the trial

last night instead of the ball game; she woke me up twice so that I could

hear Johnnie Cochran object to the prosecution lawyer, Christopher Dornan

(also African American; I think that's his name), asking the witness

whether any of the voices he heard at the murder scene sounded like a

Black person. Cochran thought that the question was improper because it

raised the issue of race. Dornan argued strenuously against. The judge

got mad at both of them. But I'm a bad witness, having just been awakened

from my OJ-induced stupor to watch.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:35:42 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: For "he says", like "he's all" . . .



If you're wise enough to be an American Dialect Society member, you will soon

enjoy "Sociolinguistic Variation and Discourse Function of Constructed

Dialogue Introducers: The Case of _be + like_" by Kathleen Ferrara and

Barbara Bell in the Fall 1995 issue of _American Speech_, soon to go to

press. I'm like, the title is heavy, but the content is cool. - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 10:37:15 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



 My wife, the OJ addict, was compelling me to watch reruns of the trial

 last night instead of the ball game; she woke me up twice so that I could

 hear Johnnie Cochran object to the prosecution lawyer, Christopher Dornan

 (also African American; I think that's his name), asking the witness

 whether any of the voices he heard at the murder scene sounded like a

 Black person. Cochran thought that the question was improper because it

 raised the issue of race. Dornan argued strenuously against. The judge

 got mad at both of them. But I'm a bad witness, having just been awakened

 from my OJ-induced stupor to watch.

 

 Regards, Bill



I try not to pay attention either, but this morning on CBS one of the

expert analysts argued that the question was legitimate. We all have

accents that tell things about us, etc.



The fireworks were good enough in the courtroom so that the scene will be

rerun all day long. It sure was all night and all morning long.



(A student hanging over my shoulder tells me that the prosecutor's name is

Darden.)



Now off to medieval lit, glad to know that English is not the official language,









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 09:44:56 -0600

From:  Salikoko Mufwene  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



In message Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:55:51 +0100, debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU writes:



  I heard an nth-hand report that the attorneys in the OJ trial and Judge

  Ito clashed yesterday over a prosecution question about whether some

  witness overheard someone "who sounded black."



  I saw the news segment on CNN HEADDLINE NEWS in which Attorney

Cochran(?) was reported to have taken offense at this characterization.

I thought "sounding black/African American" was a common phrase even among

African Americans. So I was shocked by the reaction. I remember

participating in a symposium on AAVE in which an African American linguist

was trying to articulate a distinction between "sounding black" and

"talking black." But I suppose there may be a legal dimension that I have

not perceived yet.

  Sali.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 14:10:14 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:



  In message Thu, 13 Jul 1995 08:55:51 +0100, debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU writes:

 

    I heard an nth-hand report that the attorneys in the OJ trial and Judge

    Ito clashed yesterday over a prosecution question about whether some

    witness overheard someone "who sounded black."

 

    I saw the news segment on CNN HEADDLINE NEWS in which Attorney

  Cochran(?) was reported to have taken offense at this characterization.

  I thought "sounding black/African American" was a common phrase even among

  African Americans. So I was shocked by the reaction. I remember

  participating in a symposium on AAVE in which an African American linguist

  was trying to articulate a distinction between "sounding black" and

  "talking black." But I suppose there may be a legal dimension that I have

  not perceived yet.

   Sali.

 



The witness, whose first language by the way is French, denied making any

such statement.  But even if he did, the legal question becomes,

what is "sounding black"?



CNN interviewed Edward Finegan on the subject today, and Finegan did not

address any intonational/grammatical characteristics of sounding black.

He did, however, suggest that cultural social differences may manifest

themselves in the way people speak. I don't know if he was trying to say

that there is no such thing as "sounding black" as a linguistic

difference, but it came across that way. He offered no further specifics.



Although we may be able to identify stable elements that characterize

AAVE, if a non-linguist says someone "sounds black," is that person

reacting to these identifiable elements or is that person appealing to

some (perhaps bigoted) stereotypical impression? That is the legal

question.



Do any of the subjective reaction tests reported in the literature (for

example, Houck & Davis recent article on sounding hoosier) address this

question?



Terry Irons



P.S. Perhaps for Natalie. Usually when I reply to a posting from the

list (using either pine or elm--why are mail programs named after

trees?), the reply goes to the list. In replying to Sali's posting,

however, the reply goes first to him and then to ADS-L as a cc. Any

explanations out there?



(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 13:55:05 -0600

From:  Larry Davis  DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



The Houck/Davis paper Terry referred to was not about sounding Hoosier. I

seriously doubt if anyone would claim that he/she could differentiate a

Hoosier from, say, a denizen of Illinois. On the other hand, asking someone if

a speaker "sounds black" could be nasty--as though all African-Americans

somehow sound the same, with no regional and or sociolinguistic features with

differentiate them. I do recall ( I hope correctly) that Roger Shuy's

unpublished Detroit study did include a subjective reaction test which showed

that Detroiters could distinguish white and black speakers, but that's all I

remember.



Anecdote isn't evidence, but I havae vivid memories of Raven McDavid's asking

Virginia to make dinner reservations, appointments to look at apartments etc.

because Raven's (white) Greenville, SC dialect was clearly identified by

Chicagoans as marking him as African-American at a time when overt racism

ruled (I'm not as naive about that last statement as it sounded. Just in a

hurry) And Shuy's sample of speakers did not include representatives of the

large lnumber of whites of southern origin who were living in Detroit at the

time.



AAVE dialects might be easier to identify, but the witness was not a linguist

so far as I know.



Y'all take care now, ya hear.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 15:23:00 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



One question crossed my mind out of Larry's and Terry's interventions: whose

stereotype is more valid, the linguist's or the layperson's? Or should I ask

whose stereotype is more authoritative? Or perhaps should the question be

about whose stereotype is more reliable? I am sidestepping the legal

interpretation of "sounding black," which is beyond my expertise? I think I

don't see the point of discrediting the witness for the simple reason that

he is not a linguist. Wouldn't the linguist be interested in finding out

what features are functional in the layperson's stereotype?

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 14:20:43 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



RE: OJ Trial



Folks, come on, let's get serious. I am not an expert in AAVE; however,

I would like to see the "expert" identify correctly out of 100 tape recordings

of, say, 100 different people born and raised in a southern state, e.g.,

chosen at random, and identify blacks from non-blacks. My guess is that

this is next to impossible. Then, too, we can have whites who sound black

(phoneticians, e.g.) and blacks who sound white. So where does it all end,

and what is the point of such non-scientific judgements. So I must say

that Johnny Cochran's point seems to me to be a good one.



Alan Kaye

akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu

Linguistics, CSU, Fullerton



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:31:11 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



On Thu, 13 Jul 1995, Alan S. Kaye wrote:



  RE: OJ Trial

 

  Folks, come on, let's get serious. I am not an expert in AAVE; however,

  I would like to see the "expert" identify correctly out of 100 tape recordings

  of, say, 100 different people born and raised in a southern state, e.g.,

  chosen at random, and identify blacks from non-blacks. My guess is that

  this is next to impossible. Then, too, we can have whites who sound black

  (phoneticians, e.g.) and blacks who sound white. So where does it all end,

  and what is the point of such non-scientific judgements. So I must say

  that Johnny Cochran's point seems to me to be a good one.

 

  Alan Kaye

  akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu

  Linguistics, CSU, Fullerton

 



No, Cochran's point is not good. Many (but not all) African American

speakers all over the country have a speech type that resembles Southern

plantation speech, including loss of post vocalic -r, cluster reduction,

and many other features that lay people as well as linguists can hear and

recognize (if not define precisely as phonological features). Most

non-African-Americans in Southern California do not have that kind of

speech. If the witness were to have heard somebody with such a Southern

speech type, the most likely case in Southern California is that it might

have been an African American. Without recordings and instrumental

analysis it is pretty dicey to identify voices, but the question leads to

the kind of probabilistic judgment also invited by, say, the fiber

evidence. As it happens, the witness is a non-native-speaker of American

English, and so not able to make any such judgment in any case.



Out of my oj-stupor, I appear to have some recall after all.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 16:51:43 -0500

From:  Cukor-Avila Patricia  pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOVE.ACS.UNT.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Ken Haley has an article in the Fall 1990 SECOL Review about speech

identification tests he conducted in Prairie View, Texas. He concludes

that the younger the subject is the easier that person's race is

identified based on speech alone. Guy Bailey has done similar work.



--Tricia

pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jove.acs.unt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:55:30 -0400

From:  Mike Agnes  by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU 

Subject: Electronic Dictionary



I am looking to commission a quick evaluation of an electronic

dictionary for the PC. If anyone is already familiar with one

or more electronic dictionaries currently available on the

market & thinks he or she can do a quick evaluation/comparison

by mid-week next week, please call my office on Friday 14 July.



  Mike Agnes

  (216) 579-9970 x200 voice

  (216) 579-1255 fax



--

 -- Mike Agnes

   by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 18:38:34 -0600

From:  Salikoko Mufwene  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Alan:

 Stereotypes are not fool-proof. We use them cognitively because they are

helpful. We can of course misuse them and make them dangerous. And this is

perhaps where Cochran's objection to "sounding black" becomes relevant. As

I said before, African Americans use the phrase, even scholars. I am

personally accustomed to the comment that I sound African. These are

statements based on stereotypes which some honest people find useful. I

guess I'd agree with you if you said that linguists should step down humbly

from the pedestal and stop pretending that only they can determine which

variety is AAVE and which one is not. That authority, if infallible, rests

only on the people who share the code and who may operate, for identification

purpuses, on features which may be different from those linguists have

cherished in their discussions, as useful as they are. I may sound

patronizing now, but I just did not see the point in discreting the

witness's obvervation simply because he is not a linguist.

Now,

In message Thu, 13 Jul 1995 17:31:11 -0400,

 "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU  writes:

  As it happens, the witness is a non-native-speaker of American

  English, and so not able to make any such judgment in any case.

  I cannot resist taking exception with this statement. What if I took

the liberty of substituting "AAVE" for "American English" in your statement,

would I be wrong? Does inablility to replicate the native speaker entail

inability to tell the difference? Actually, aren't there incompetent native

speakers (with regard to the judgment that concerns us here)? Why is the

native speaker presumed error-free? Where does variation fit in all this by

the way?

Sali.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 18:11:25 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Allow me to clarify my recent point on this network and the 2 responses:

I am a pretty good mimic and can imitate quite a few accents. So, too,

are many others. So if I say a sentence or two in AAVE, pronounced

perfectly, or even several sentences, a hearer might conclude that I am

African American. However, I am not, of course. In terms of auditory

phonetics, many people do not have good hearing, and many also have

distorted conclusions based on stereotypes, etc., as Sali Mufwene has

noted. Thus, listening to a few words, on tape, or on the telephone,

or in person, can result in misidentification of race.

Anyone out there who can identify someone's race from his/her speech,

let's put you to the test. It's that simple!

Now, am I missing something or what?



I hope everyone is having a nice summer.

--Alan Kaye--

Linguistics, CSU, Fullerton

akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Jul 1995 to 13 Jul 1995

************************************************







There are 15 messages totalling 474 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. oj trial (9)

 2. For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like" (fwd) (2)

 3. "he's like" (fwd)

 4. usage query: "vacay" (2)

 5. oj trial & dialect recognition(fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 13 Jul 1995 23:09:23 -0700

From:  kim mckinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: oj trial



As a side note, sort of, I remember in college (as a Comparative Language

major), discussing with a good friend and classmate what we perceived to be

a "smokey" quality to African-American voices. This had nothing to do with

accent/grammar/Southernisms/etc. She was African-American and was planning

to do a year in Paris to study if Blacks in France also had that "smokey"

quality. We lost contact after I graduated and so I don't know if she ever

went or did the study.



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:20:56 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Sali Mufwene's objection to the putative greater competence of native

speakers to discriminate dialects is well taken. There is nothing to

prevent anybody, native speaker or not, from learning about different

dialects in a language. I would still say that, on average, someone who

has missed out on growing up in a place is much more likely to not to

command the kind of acculturation to that place that is necessary to

discriminate dialects accurately. Studies, e.g. by Jack Chambers in

*Language* and Payne in the Penn group, suggest that even people who move

to a new place at a young age do not fully command the linguistic variants

of the place as the natives do; it is the second generation before such

full acculturation takes place. The studies are of production, but I bet

perception would not be far different. And of course my earlier point

was probabilistic---we are dealing with likelihood, more and less, not

rationalist absolutes---and I think that probability is also the issue in

Kaye's comments. If I had been more cautious, I would have said that the

OJ witness who is obviously not a native speaker of American English

(from his own accent) would be much less likely to make accurate

observations about American English dialects than a native speaker of

American English, though of course such a witness *might* make accurate

observations and native speakers *might well* make inaccurate ones. As

Einstein says, it's all relative (just as murder is very often by

relatives, a family matter).



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:45:46 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Maybe the question should be, Is the average person's perception

of race based on overheard speech as good as other aspects of

eyewitness identification, such as people's judgment of a stranger's

height and weight? If so, it might be reasonable to bring it up at

a trial, as one of many points, while acknowledging that none of

them is 100% certain.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:51:33 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: oj trial



Let me raise another question, since the oj one stirred a good discussion:



My African American students for the past 2 semesters have been using the

term Ebonics to refer to what we most recently seem to be calling AAVE. I

confess that I haven't been keeping up, and the term was new to me. But I

also notice that the linguists I talk to in various groups do not use the

term. So, is this something coming from the popular side? Is it akin to

Black Athena talk, and ice people vs. sun people, or what?



Dennis



(do I really sound like a New Yorker after all these years? my 12 yr old

daughter recently asked me what the name of my high school, Forest Hills

High, meant. I replied that there were a lot of trees in the neighborhood

40 years ago. To which she went, like, what do trees have to do with it?

After a few rounds of this, I realized she thought Ihad gone to Farrest

Hills High. As in far, farrer, farrest. The most distant hills, something

like that. My wife explained, Daddy doesn't talk (tawk) like the rest of

us--he doesn't say fawrist).



---



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 10:45:15 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen Straight (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

      sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, William A. Kretzschmar, Jr. wrote:



  Sali Mufwene's objection to the putative greater competence of native

  speakers to discriminate dialects is well taken. There is nothing to

  prevent anybody, native speaker or not, from learning about different

  dialects in a language. I would still say that, on average, someone who

  has missed out on growing up in a place is much more likely to not to

  command the kind of acculturation to that place that is necessary to

  discriminate dialects accurately. Studies, e.g. by Jack Chambers in

  *Language* and Payne in the Penn group, suggest that even people who move

  to a new place at a young age do not fully command the linguistic variants

  of the place as the natives do; it is the second generation before such

  full acculturation takes place. The studies are of production, but I bet

  perception would not be far different. ...



I bet not. Indeed, I know many people who are far better than I am at

recognizing dialects or accents but who are far poorer than I am at

mimicking them when they hear them. Granted, productive "command" of

these variants requires more than mimicking ability, but my point is that

good recognizers need have no comparable production facility.



signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

H Stephen STRAIGHT, Assoc Prof of Anthro & of Ling, Binghamton Univ (SUNY)

Director: Grad Studies in Anthro, Prog in Ling, and Lgs Across the Curric

Box 6000, Binghamton, NY 13902-6000; Voice: 607-777-2824; Fax: -2889/-2477

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 08:32:21 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like" (fwd)



I forwarded Jim Ague's message on this topic to my son for his amusement,

and think his response might interest some on the list. Any comment from

AAVE specialists out there? (Note: the middle school he refers to [in

Yellow Springs, Ohio] was a harmoniously integrated school in which

middle-class black students were a sizeable minority and seemed to be the

trend-setters.)



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 22:02:49 PDT

From: Patrick McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]theory.caltech.edu 

To: pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

Subject: Re: For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like" (fwd)



I suspect these usages are not originally from California, but from Black

English. Especially when I was in Middle School, people would often

follow "He's like" with not just words, but gestures indicating what

someone was doing. The phrase indicates that what follows is an

imitation. "He's all" probably has similar origins-- it can also come

before an adjective or a description, e.g., "He's all pissed 'cause I

didn't invite him." I imagine the usage with a quotation is an extension

of this.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 10:09:51 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



In Message Fri, 14 Jul 1995 09:51:33 +0100, debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU writes:



 My African American students for the past 2 semesters have been using the

 term Ebonics to refer to what we most recently seem to be calling AAVE.



  To my knowledge, the term "Ebonics" was used first by some African

American linguists in 1975, in a volume edited by Robert R. Williams titled

EBONICS: THE TRUE LANGUAGE OF BLACK FOLKS. The only other place I have seen

it used in print, in the linguistic context, is a special issue of JOURNAL OF

BLACK STUDIES titled EBONICS (BLACK ENGLISH): IMPLICATIONS FOR EDUCATION

(1979). I have never seen the term used by African American linguists who

would be more familiar to members of this list and I have never heard it

used by laypersons in the African American community, at least not in

Chicago, Athens, Georgia, or Charleston, SC. On the other hand, it is the

term being used in the Afrocentricity school led by Molefi Asante, Temple

University. Last time I spoke there in April this year, I was chastized by

students for not using the term. On the other hand, Molefi told me he could

tolerate my terminological mistake.

 Hope you find this information useful.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 10:20:11 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: "he's like" (fwd)



I think this message was meant for the whole list.



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 14 Jul 1995 12:33:55 -0400 (EDT)

From: Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 

To: pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

Subject: Re: "he's like"



Does anyone know how old this use of "like" as a quotative is? Citations

would be especially helpful. Has there been an article about it

recently?



Jesse Sheidlower

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 14:00:39 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: usage query: "vacay"



Recently, my boss and a few other people in my office have been using

"vacay" (both "a"s pronounced as in "way") as shorthand for "vacation."

Is this widespread slang? Have other people seen or heard it?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 12:50:34 -0800

From:  "Alan S. Kaye"  AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Re: The term EBONICS

This term simply means 'black sounds' (Ebony magazine). It is a term which has

been around for decades, and is one widely known by African Americans. There

was a conference about 20 years ago on it, and most of the papers has this

term in the title. Most non-African-American linguists do not know the term

nor use it.

Alan Kaye

Linguistics

CSU, Fullerton

akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 16:01:28 -0400

From:  Robert Aldridge  RobertA799[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: usage query: "vacay"



I've never heard it used this way. Maybe you have invented a neologism.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 15:05:12 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial & dialect recognition(fwd)



I would have to agree, from personal experience, with Stephen Straight's

comments below in reference to William Kretzschmar's message on native vs

non-native speakers and their ability to recognize accents. I am not a

native speaker of French, but I lived there for many years and am able to

now often point out the region of France that a person comes from. I can

also distinguish between general Canadian, Caribbean, and African French

accents vs. accents from France. I may not be able to say what province

of Canada or Caribbean island the person comes from, but I can

differenciate between them. This comes with speaking to people,

listening to music, etc.



Just the other day I was speaking to someone from France and guessed

where he was from within 100 miles.



If it can be done for French, why not for English?



JEFF



---------- Forwarded message ----------

On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, William A. Kretzschmar, Jr. wrote:



  Sali Mufwene's objection to the putative greater competence of native

  speakers to discriminate dialects is well taken. There is nothing to

  prevent anybody, native speaker or not, from learning about different

  dialects in a language. I would still say that, on average, someone who

  has missed out on growing up in a place is much more likely to not to

  command the kind of acculturation to that place that is necessary to

  discriminate dialects accurately. Studies, e.g. by Jack Chambers in

  *Language* and Payne in the Penn group, suggest that even people who move

  to a new place at a young age do not fully command the linguistic variants

  of the place as the natives do; it is the second generation before such

  full acculturation takes place. The studies are of production, but I bet

  perception would not be far different. ...



I bet not. Indeed, I know many people who are far better than I am at

recognizing dialects or accents but who are far poorer than I am at

mimicking them when they hear them. Granted, productive "command" of

these variants requires more than mimicking ability, but my point is that

good recognizers need have no comparable production facility.



signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

H Stephen STRAIGHT, Assoc Prof of Anthro & of Ling, Binghamton Univ (SUNY)

Director: Grad Studies in Anthro, Prog in Ling, and Lgs Across the Curric

Box 6000, Binghamton, NY 13902-6000; Voice: 607-777-2824; Fax: -2889/-2477

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 13:58:47 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



I'm sitting back in detached amusement today, looking at about a week's

worth of ADS messages about the OJ trial -- the replies to which went

every which way except to what actually happened.



I think everyone on the list that replied, AS WELL AS Johnnie Cochrane,

was subject to a mass hallucination -- that Darden asked the witness if

the voice sounded like a black man. That's the only explanation that

makes sense of Cochrane's and others' reactions. What Darden really asked

was whether the witness had ever TOLD anyone that it sounded like a black

man.



Somehow (! -- Cochrane's motive?) the whole point turned from whether the

witness had ever told anyone that to whether such a thing was RELIABLE or

RACIST. I asked my Study of Language students yesterday whether they ever

depend on recognizing certain voice characteristics as in this case when

they don't know the person, and they all said yes -- even tho sometimes

they're wrong. It's still what we all do when scanning the vocal signal.



Most importantly, the witness was very clear that dogs were barking and

he couldn't make out any actual words. This reinforces the fact that he

was contrasting the younger, clearer first voice with a deeper second

voice. It makes a lot of sense to me that, after hearing about the

murders and putting it together with what he heard, he could have mused

to someone that the second voice, deeper, COULD have been a more mature

black man's voice.



Whether people use and report these vocal impressions on a daily basis is

one thing; whether they are as reliable as fingerprints is another. I

fully agree with Vicky R's observation that it's at least as reliable as

estimates of height and weight: it's a dialect estimate!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 14:46:42 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like" (fwd)



I'm glad the subject of "I'm all..." finally came up. I've been saving

this for the right time. DARE, pay attention.



I cite from the following: Dan Alford, "A New English Language Quotative"

in _Not Just Words: The Newsletter of Transpersonal Linguistics_, Vol II,

No. 2-3, Fall 1982-3 (sic):



*****************************************************************************************************



There is a new way of introducing "quoted" material which is surfacing in

children in many parts of California -- and I'm wondering if any readers

have spotted it elsewhere. (Remember, you read it first in NJW -- nobody

in discouse has mentioned it yet to my knowledge.)



The fascinating part about the new quotative pattern is that it can be

used to introduce either verbal or non-verbal messages. The subscriber

who first alerted me to this usage, Suzanne Peregoy, had noticed its

usage in Santa Barbara, Berkeley, and other parts of the Bay Area. I

subsequently heard it coming out of the mouth of my own 9-year-old

daughter, who hangs out most of the time up in the mountains of Placerville.



There are two parts to this separable discourse-eme (for lack of a better

word), each of which is followed by the material being quoted:



She's all, "(Quo)". I'm here, "(Quo)". [update: the second doesn't seem

to have lasted]



Again, the quoted material may be non-verbal, as in "S/he's all, '(with

hands on hips and falsetto voice) Why don't you ever do what you're

told?' I'm here, '(feigned nonchalance) la-de-da-de-da'."



Or "She's all, '(demonstrates jittery movements with hands and arms going

in all directions).' I'm here, 'Give me a BREAK and calm down!''



The whole pattern may be repeated once, and perhaps more times.



This construction may signal a new direction in the grammar of English,

or it may simply be an example of pre-pube in-group language. ...



****************************************************************************************************



As I type again those words from over a decade ago (of course the old

CP/M Wordstar file it was in has not survived the years. All the

cheery-eyed electronic prognosticators forget the fact that files in old

formats seldom survive transformations), I'm astounded at its accuracy

even now -- little has changed, except it's now "I'm all," "She's all,"

and the original "I'm here" has been lost to arcane linguistic history.



And re: the larger inquiry this belongs to, "I'm like", I just received

this attested sentence on tape from a student in the obligatory

transcript of 5 minutes of unvarnished reality:



    "Christina and I went and we were like, 'Excuse me?'"









On Fri, 14 Jul 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



  I forwarded Jim Ague's message on this topic to my son for his amusement,

  and think his response might interest some on the list. Any comment from

  AAVE specialists out there? (Note: the middle school he refers to [in

  Yellow Springs, Ohio] was a harmoniously integrated school in which

  middle-class black students were a sizeable minority and seemed to be the

  trend-setters.)

 

  Peter McGraw

  Linfield College

  McMinnville, OR

 

  ---------- Forwarded message ----------

  Date: Thu, 13 Jul 95 22:02:49 PDT

  From: Patrick McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]theory.caltech.edu 

  To: pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

  Subject: Re: For "he says", like "he's all" or "he goes" or "he's like" (fwd)

 

  I suspect these usages are not originally from California, but from Black

  English. Especially when I was in Middle School, people would often

  follow "He's like" with not just words, but gestures indicating what

  someone was doing. The phrase indicates that what follows is an

  imitation. "He's all" probably has similar origins-- it can also come

  before an adjective or a description, e.g., "He's all pissed 'cause I

  didn't invite him." I imagine the usage with a quotation is an extension

  of this.

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 14 Jul 1995 20:14:19 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: oj trial



Alan S. Kaye writes:

  I would like to see the "expert" identify correctly out of 100 tape

  recordings of, say, 100 different people born and raised in a southern

  state, e.g., chosen at random, and identify blacks from non-blacks.

  My guess is that this is next to impossible.



So the witness should say the voice "sounded Black-or-Southern" rather

than "sounded Black" -- a distinction without a difference, as either way

most Californians are excluded.



Bill Kretzschmar adds:

  As it happens, the witness is a non-native-speaker of American

  English, and so not able to make any such judgment in any case.



With practice, I can hear accents in French (e.g. Vaudois, Italian), though

not as subtly as a native (and I wouldn't attempt to speak French with,

say, an Irish accent); is Northern-vs-Southern a subtle difference?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jul 1995 to 14 Jul 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "all"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 15 Jul 1995 02:24:42 GMT

From:  Barnhart  Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: "all"



With minimal evidence from print sources _The Barnhart Dictionary Companion_

(Vol. 7.3, c. 1993) suggested, in part, the following:



all, v. {u} In the verb phrases (am, is, are, etc.) all. say or says or

saying or said. Compare go (PDSUE, .. 1970's) and like (PDSUE, ca 1955).

Nonstandard (used in slang contexts; infrequent in print)



  And like this girl I know, Tamar, she went to the University of Vermont

last year and during orientation this girl from the South is all, "Hi, you

all." And Tamar, she's all, "I'm about to ask her if she's from the South

because she has this Southern accent? And she's all, "Are you from

California?" And I'm all, "How did you know?" And she's all, "By the way

you say 'all' instead of 'said'." And I'm all, "Ohmygod." Alice Kanh,

"'Said Is Dead; Long Live 'All'; The Kids' all-purpose verb," The San

Francisco Chronicle, Jan. 30, 1992, p D30



Origin unknown. Perhaps a grammatical shift from all (OED, adv.).





For those unfamiliar with the Companion, {u} signals a change in usage (as

opposed to {w} for new word and {m} for new meaning) and PDSUE = Partridge

Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English. The remaining abbreviations

are selfexplanatory.



Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jul 1995 to 15 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 76 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Woman/Lady (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 16 Jul 1995 00:17:10 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Woman/Lady



Weren't we discussing the differences between phrases like "lady doctor" and

"woman doctor" a while back? (If it was somewhere else, well, it *should* have

been here, too.)



Anyway, I was watching the Boston Red Sox/Texas Rangers (baseball) game

tonight, with Brent Mussberger and Joe Torre doing the commentary. As the

score got out of hand, the announcers started commenting (favorably) on the

increasing number of women in front office and public positions. At one point,

Torre noted that Boston has the first "lady p/a announcer" and the first "lady

assistant general manager". Mussberger immediately cut in, saying that you had

to say "woman p/a announcer", etc. Afterwards, he made a crack about PC, but

is did seem as if his correction was based on it 'sounding wrong' to say "lady

p/a announcer", and the PC came out of trying to articulate *why* it sounded

wrong.



PS for baseball fans: the score was *objectively* getting out of hand; no

partisanship intended.



PS for non-baseball fans: Mussberger is an experienced sportscaster and covers

a variety of sports; Torre is an ex-player, ex-manager, though he has been

involved in specifically baseball broadcasting between stints as a manager.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 16 Jul 1995 07:32:48 PDT

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: Woman/Lady



For what Virginia McDavid and I found to be the situation circa 1985, when

we were writing usage notes and synonymies for the Random House

 Dictionary, Second Edition, Unabridged. See the Usage Paragraph sv

_lady_ and the Usage Paragraph and Synonymy sv _woman_ and

_-woman_. Upon re-reading, they seem to accurately define the present

situation with the two terms. Political correctness aside, the general current

practice seems to be as described.



Tom Creswell



---------------Original Message---------------

Weren't we discussing the differences between phrases like "lady doctor" and

"woman doctor" a while back? (If it was somewhere else, well, it *should* have

been here, too.)



Anyway, I was watching the Boston Red Sox/Texas Rangers (baseball) game

tonight, with Brent Mussberger and Joe Torre doing the commentary. As the

score got out of hand, the announcers started commenting (favorably) on the

increasing number of women in front office and public positions. At one point,

Torre noted that Boston has the first "lady p/a announcer" and the first "lady

assistant general manager". Mussberger immediately cut in, saying that you had

to say "woman p/a announcer", etc. Afterwards, he made a crack about PC, but

is did seem as if his correction was based on it 'sounding wrong' to say "lady

p/a announcer", and the PC came out of trying to articulate *why* it sounded

wrong.



PS for baseball fans: the score was *objectively* getting out of hand; no

partisanship intended.



PS for non-baseball fans: Mussberger is an experienced sportscaster and covers

a variety of sports; Torre is an ex-player, ex-manager, though he has been

involved in specifically baseball broadcasting between stints as a manager.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu





----------End of Original Message----------



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jul 1995 to 16 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 14 messages totalling 505 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. oj trial (5)

 2. Personal

 3. regional differences (2)

 4. Case studies needed

 5. AAVE/BEV/EBONICS/BAE AND WHAT NOT (2)

 6. ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd) (2)

 7. Woman/Lady, Hot as Tofet



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 07:16:55 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



  P.S. Perhaps for Natalie. Usually when I reply to a posting from the

  list (using either pine or elm--why are mail programs named after

  trees?), the reply goes to the list. In replying to Sali's posting,

  however, the reply goes first to him and then to ADS-L as a cc. Any

  explanations out there?



Replies to Sali's postings go to him because for some reason he has set

the 'reply-to' line that way. The list setting is 'reply-to=list,respect'

-- which tells listserv to send replies to the list but to respect special

requests like Sali's.



Sorry to be late in replying. I've been out of town and didn't manage to

stay even close to on top of all list mail even though I was checking my

personal e-mail from time to time.



Re the topic of "sounding black" (which I'm sure there's more list mail

ahead on -- "ahead on" sounds weird): it has been my experience as both

non-linguist (pre-linguist?) and linguist that yankees tend not to be able

to distinguish between black and white Southern speech while most Southerners

can (usually -- there are of course exceptions). I haven't followed the OJ

trial at all and know nothing about this witness or anything else related

to the trial, but I would say that the "sounding black" isn't universal

enough (as in not all blacks "sound black," some whites might "sound black,"

not all listeners are able to judge) or definite enough to be useful in a

trial.



There are published results of various tape tests, btw, which I'm sure

people have mentioned by now.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 11:04:32 GMT

From:  "Annette Parker 193.64.202.3"  an331799[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]193.64.202.3 

Subject: Personal



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            Fax: +44 151 347 1658



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 08:55:16 -0700

From:  Joanne Feierman  feierman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: regional differences



I would like to identify regional speech differences (pronunciation and

words that mean different things in different places) that would be

helpful for business people who travel throughout the US to know about.

I am particularly interested in miscommunication, confusion, or

embarrassment that speech differences might cause the traveling exec or

sales person. I would also like to learn about "language etiquette" in

various parts of the country.



Here's an example of the latter that I love. My son, a real New Yorker

we could, of course, have fun describing what a real New Yorker is vs.

an unreal New Yorker, but that's another matter), kept telling how

different things were in the Midwest during his freshman year at the

University of Michigan (Ann Arbor). When pressed for specifics, he

explained, "Well here when someone is talking, you have to wait until

that person is done talking before you start talking. If you just jump

in, the whole conversation stops and everyone just looks at you."



Any references or examples will be greatly appreciated.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 13:37:03 -0500

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: Re: regional differences



One that always gets me in trouble is, as a native Southerner I say to a

Northerner or a Midwesterner (or any other American for that matter), "Do

you want a Coke?" and they say no, but then sit there and wish for a

Sprite or something, tea maybe. What I meant was, "So you want a soft drink or

anything at all to drink?" Or if I'm going to the vending machine for a

group, I'll say, "What kind of Coke do you want?" and people will give me

the strangest looks. I *try* not to do that, but if I get to feeling

comfortable, I forget.



Oh, and people often seem completely unaware of the variable temporal

length of "fixing to." "I'm fixing to go" does not necessarily mean within

the next few minutes (or even half hour). Of course it could mean that.



I also have been cautioned by Northeastern and West Coast friends

(WASP-types) that it is rude, or at least can appear nosy, to inquire after

people's mamas, as in "how's your mama and them?" People apparently don't

all bring their families into their cognitive work world. Some told me

it's rather elitist, not a sign of civil concern (as in we're all

supposed to be seen as indivduals, family-free?) to ask about people's family

backgrounds (as in "who's your mama and them"). My friends said only people

who were concerned with your pedigree would ask this question and therefore

that people will take it wrong, as if you're trying to "sniff them out." Is

this true?



shana







--

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:08:52 -0500

From:  Ditra Henry  udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



EVERYONE......especially Sali...Sounding Black...talking Black..speaking

BEV..AAVE..Ebonics or as I prefer to call it..BAE..Black American English..

IS A MOOT ISSUE IN COURT ESP. FOR LAYMEN AND EVEN MORE SO FOR LINGUIST.

I BELIEVE THAT THERE ARE CHARATERISTICS IN ANY SPEECH DIALECT OR LANGUAGE

THAT CAN DETERMINE THAT YOU ARE A SPEAKER AND EVEN A NATIVE SPEAKER

OF ONE OF THE AFORMENTIONED. HOWEVER THE REAL QUESTION IS..IS THIS AN

ACCURATE DETERMINATE OF YOUR ETHINC BACKGOUND AND MAY I BE SO BOLD AS TO

SAY YOUR RACE?? AND THEN SALI THAT IS THE LEGALITY OF THE WHOLE IDEA WHAT

DOES IT PROVE IF THIS PERSON SOUNDS, LOOKS OR SPEAKS BALCK??  I KNOW

SEVERAL NON AFRICAN AMERICANS THAT SOUND LIKE AFRICAN

AMERICANS EVEN TO AFRICAN AMERICANS BECAUSE THEY HAVE SPENT A GOOD

PORTION OF THERE LIVES GROWIN UP CULTURALLY AS AFRICAN AMERICANS.

 YET I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN AND BE MISTAKEN ON THE TELEPHNE TO BE BLONDE

AND BLUE EYED AND WHITE. SO WHAT IS THE TRUE ANSWER TO BRINGING UP SUCH

A MATTER IN A COURT TRIAL THAT ALREADY HAS PLENTY OF TRIVIAL EVIDENCE.

BESIDES THE CURRENT GERNERATION OF CHILDREN ALL SPEAK BAE SINCE RAP MUSIC

HAS INFLUENCED THEM TO E HIP HOP.



DITRA





ADVOCATE OF BAE IS ANOTHER LANGUAGE NOT JUST A DIALECT



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:34:48 -0500

From:  Ditra Henry  udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



On Fri, 14 Jul 1995 debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU wrote:



  Let me raise another question, since the oj one stirred a good discussion:

 

  My African American students for the past 2 semesters have been using the

  term Ebonics to refer to what we most recently seem to be calling AAVE. I

  confess that I haven't been keeping up, and the term was new to me. But I

  also notice that the linguists I talk to in various groups do not use the

  term. So, is this something coming from the popular side? Is it akin to

  Black Athena talk, and ice people vs. sun people, or what?

 

  Dennis

 

   

 

  ---

 

  Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

 

  Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

  University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

  608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

  Urbana, Illinois 61801

 

Dennis,





I'm not sure all your students knwo about the article, but there was a

Journal arlticle published a ferw years abcak maybe 1990 or 91 that did a

pole in a Chiago Catholic University. Part of the discussin in the

article was to get African Americans to refer to the way they speak in a

more positive manner and to call it something different than its

references in the past such ad Black English Vernacular in order to

develop a more positive attitude about the language. I'm quite glad to

see that your students are responding so positively. I am working on

this effort at Northeastern Illinois Universityalos. I am a Graduate T.

A. in the Linguistic program and I have been lecturing in the

undegraduate lisguistic course when they do the sectiions on BAE(Black

American English) my preerence. There seems to be a mitzvah going on

when I give my presentation froma very positive point of view. I also

plan to give this discussin at the Iinternationsl TESOL convention next

spring.



Is Black English Another Language?







Ditra



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 17:52:56 -0500

From:  mai kuha  mkuha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SILVER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Case studies needed



Dear colleagues,



I'm preparing to teach an introductory course in language variation, and

I'd like to get your help. Could you recommend any case studies,

either from published sources or from your own experience, that would be

appropriate for class discussion?



What I'm looking for in a case study is a description of a real

situation, preferably a somewhat controversial one. Ideally, it would

include some background information, a description of the conflicts

involved, the sequence of events up to a point where a decision is

needed, and a description of the actual decision taken.



Since the course is on language variation, relevant case studies would

include anecdotes on discrimination in the workplace or in the

educational system because of language choice or dialect choice, or

cases involving difficult decisions in language planning or language

legislation.



I've never used case studies before, so advice and comments are also

welcome! My address is

    mkuha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]silver.ucs.indiana.edu



Thanks for your help.



Mai Kuha



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:07:55 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



In Message Mon, 17 Jul 1995 16:08:52 -0500,

 Ditra Henry  udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU  writes:



 EVERYONE......especially Sali...Sounding Black...talking Black..speaking

 BEV..AAVE..Ebonics or as I prefer to call it..BAE..Black American English..

 IS A MOOT ISSUE IN COURT ESP. FOR LAYMEN AND EVEN MORE SO FOR LINGUIST.

  How does this become MY business? Besides, your don't explain the racist

dimension of the comment to which Attorney Cochran objected!

 

 ADVOCATE OF BAE IS ANOTHER LANGUAGE NOT JUST A DIALECT

  Now, this is interesting. Is your position based on linguistic or

sociohistorical facts, or is it based on sentiments? A term more consistent

with your position should drop "English" from "Black American English," by

the way. The term "Ebonics" would be more adequate within your list. In any

case, find a name that won't tempt others to characterize it as a variety

of English.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:05:09 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: oj trial



On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, Ditra Henry wrote:



  Is Black English Another Language?

 

 

 

  Ditra

 





I cannot, nor would I dare, claim expertise in Black English. For what I

have observed and have read cannot get at competence. Yet what I have

observed leads me to the conclusion that Black English is a distinct

language, although (perhaps influenced by the ideas of John Rickford and

Michael Montgomery) I once fancifully termed it in a public lecture to be

New World Afro-Hibernian English. Certainly, black english or aave or

whatever shares vocabulary with american english. But vocabulary are

only signs, and language as a computational capacity and system of mental

representations is much more than signs and vocabulary.



Within the principles and parameters framework (which minimalist theory

threatens to economize), a CP rewrites as a spec C' which rewrites as a

C IP, with IP becoming the functional category governing VP and so on

down the line until we get to some real words. At a high level, IP, or

infl, represents various tense-modal-aspect features of a language. In

my lecture, drawing upon various sources, including Baugh, I tried to

show that at the IP level the parameters for TMA (tense/modal/aspect) are

set differently for BE than for AE. This parametric difference leads to

the conclusion that BE is not simply a variety of AE but is a distinct

language competence. This conclusion is supported by understandings of

be/been/done constructions provided by African Americans that are not

accessible by honkies.



The Great White American Un-PC Honkie,



Terry





(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:25:18 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: AAVE/BEV/EBONICS/BAE AND WHAT NOT



In Message Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:05:09 -0400,

 TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  writes:



 I cannot, nor would I dare, claim expertise in Black English. For what I

 have observed and have read cannot get at competence. Yet what I have

 observed leads me to the conclusion that Black English is a distinct

 language,



  Try analyzing some white nonstandard varieties of English within the

theoretical framework you used for AAVE/BAE's time reference system and I

dare you to draw the same conclusion. I am amused by the fact that neither

you nor Ditra invoke what the average speaker of AAVE/BAE thinks they speak.

Just think why a term as appealing as "Ebonics" has not become popular

within the African American population most closely connected with the

variety (since 1975!), in contrast with, for instance, "African American."

Its usage is still confined to a segment of the elite, especially the

Afrocentrists.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:47:59 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 17 Jul 1995 19:45:30 -0400

From:NLGilbert[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

To: STUMPERS-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Cc: jhunt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dhvx20.csudh.edu

Subject: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up"





Dear stumpers,



Now that I have moved to the same coast as my parents' home, I am frequently

reminded of a regional phrase in American English. This term is so regional

that I have never heard anyone other than my parents use it. Might anyone in

the wide world of stumpers have encountered it?



The phrase is "put up," sometimes just "up," with approximately the following

meaning:



To put something up seems to mean to activate a process (often involving a

machine or heat or hot water) that will convert that something to a desired

state.



Examples:



"Honey, are you going to put up the dishes," i.e. run the dishwasher.

"I'll put up some water for coffee," i.e. put it on the stove to boil.

"Please put up the laundry," i.e. run the washing machine.



Once something has been put up, it is "up" while its process is happening.

 Once the process is done, it's no longer up -- it's done.



Samples of "up":



Q: Are the dishes still up?

A: No, they're done.



Q: Is the coffee up?

A: Yes, it should be ready in a few minutes.



Q: Why is the hot water in the shower suddenly running cold?

A: Because the laundry is up.





"Put up" was never used in my family in the sense of, say, putting up pickles

or preserving food. You could, of course, "put up" paintings on the walls.





Any insight or further citations of my family's meaning of "put up" would be

appreciated. I think it came from my mother's mother's family, where the

language would have been Yiddish touched by Russian.



Thank you,



Nina Gilbert

Choral conductor, music historian, and editor

Falls Church, Virginia



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:56:02 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: AAVE/BEV/EBONICS/BAE AND WHAT NOT



On Mon, 17 Jul 1995, salikoko mufwene wrote:



   Try analyzing some white nonstandard varieties of English within the

  theoretical framework you used for AAVE/BAE's time reference system and I

  dare you to draw the same conclusion. I am amused by the fact that neither

  you nor Ditra invoke what the average speaker of AAVE/BAE thinks they speak.

  Just think why a term as appealing as "Ebonics" has not become popular

  within the African American population most closely connected with the

  variety (since 1975!), in contrast with, for instance, "African American."

  Its usage is still confined to a segment of the elite, especially the

  Afrocentrists.

  Sali.



Labels as distinct from realities have political/economic motivations.

Notice that my fanciful name for this language included "Hibernian." In

this respect I include many so-called non-standard varieties spoken by

people of Irish and Scots descent in what we call BE. I teach many of

these people in the Appalachian plateau region of the US, a region with

the most concentrated poverty in this land of plenty. These people are

intensely aware of the fact that they speak differently from the way

people on the TV speak. It is sad that they are often ashamed of this

fact, and want to change they way they speak. I see it every day. It is

a case of internal colonialism at its worst.



Terry



(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 18:13:04 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift  madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Woman/Lady, Hot as Tofet



Thing one: this weekend I saw Billy Wilder's _The Major and the Minor_

(1942). Ginger Rogers' exasperated Iowan fiance says of her, "She can go

to Tofet . . . . to brimstone Tofet!" I didn't save any of the earlier

posts about the region, and I'm not sure if it's f or ph or t or T, but

there it is.



Thing two:

  Weren't we discussing the differences between phrases like "lady doctor" and

  "woman doctor" a while back? (If it was somewhere else, well, it *should* have

  been here, too.)

In Moscow, I was amused to see that a local English-language paper,

which presents a tv guide, retranslates the title of the dubbed version

of _Dr. Quinn, Medicine Woman_ into _Dr. Quinn, Lady Doctor_.



Well, ok, so it's trivial, but since we're getting posts about wireless

alarms . . . .



Sylvia Swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:40:20 EDT

From:  Elizabeth Sklar  ESKLAR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WAYNEST1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)



You don't say which coast you've moved to, but the phrase is both familiar to

and used by my family (and me)--Atlantic coast, and (coincidentally?)

father whose parents were from Russia and spoke Yiddish.

             Elizabeth Sklar

             Wayne State University, Detroit



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1995 to 17 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 161 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. AAVE/BEV/EBONICS/BAE AND WHAT NOT

 2. ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)

 3. regional differences

 4. ?"dropping like flies" (fwd)

 5. ! DROP LIKE FLIES (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 17 Jul 1995 23:36:03 -0600

From:  Salikoko Mufwene  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: AAVE/BEV/EBONICS/BAE AND WHAT NOT



In message Mon, 17 Jul 1995 20:56:02 -0400,

 TERRY IRONS  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU  writes:



  Labels as distinct from realities have political/economic motivations.

  Notice that my fanciful name for this language included "Hibernian." In

  this respect I include many so-called non-standard varieties spoken by

  people of Irish and Scots descent in what we call BE. I teach many of

  these people in the Appalachian plateau region of the US, a region with

  the most concentrated poverty in this land of plenty. These people are

  intensely aware of the fact that they speak differently from the way

  people on the TV speak. It is sad that they are often ashamed of this

  fact, and want to change they way they speak. I see it every day. It is

  a case of internal colonialism at its worst.

 

  In Spring 1986, I was "hunting/fishing for" Gullah on the Sea Islands of

South Carolina. One particular weekend, I was hosted by a family at

Frogmore, near Beaufort. I was assigned to the family because the guys at the

Penn Community Center thought I was likely to hear them interact in Gullah.

I heard a little bit but the wife claimed only her husband spoke it. I heard

her speak it only when she was testifying in church. The man claimed he did

not know what "Gullah" was, even after I heard him speak it with his brother

while they took me to visit Parish Island. When I told him afterwards that I

thought he and his brother had spoken Gullah during the tour, he was shocked

that his variety was called Gullah, though he knew they talk different from

mainlanders. Anyway, he got me back. He took to a joint in the evening and

introduced me to an old toothless and stammering man that even the locals had

trouble communicating with. Afterwards, with a satisfied grin, he told me:

"maybe that's what you call Gullah and have been looking for."

 The point of this story is: who decides in such cases what to call such

varieties which claim as much descendance from English as what is spoken on

TV? It's all right when native speakers decide to disfranchize themselves

and claim they speak another language. What if they think they speak the

same language, is it up to those who cannot communicate with them to

disown their variety? Were all the original navite varieties in the British

Isles or in England mutually intelligible among all members of the language

community? It's politics all right, but whose politics should matter? If you

are native Appalachian, it's your right to claim Appalachians do not speak

English. However, if you are not, isn't that a one-sided decision? When does

a dialect become a separate language?

 I think that for professional reasons, differences and similarities do not

decrease or increase depending on whether we call AAVE/BAE and Appalachian

English dialects of English or separate languages. I'll be very happy to use

a name that comes from members of the community. When linguists make up

names of their own and want to impose their ideological biases, I'll

challenge them to justify their positions, hoping to benefit from their

expert arguments.

Sali.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:54:14 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker  beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ 

Subject: Re: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)



My family (Czech community in Chicago) doesn't use "put up," but one thing

I picked up from my grandparents (born in Chicago) was saying "on the

attic" instead of "in." And just recently I discovered that what I thought

was "hutch," which meant to sit down and be quiet ( I always envisioned a

rabbit in its hutch), is actually "hac," which is Czech for, what else,

"sit down and be quiet." Now I wonder how many other words that I think are

English - but that no one outside my family recognizes - are actually

Czech, or some variation of it.



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 18 Jul 1995 09:30:00 CDT

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: Re: regional differences



Shana Walton inquires about the distribution of coke as a

general term for what we call 'pop' around here.



The temporal and regional expansion of generic coke is

related, completely and revealingly, in an article by Tom

Murray in the upcoming (September 95) issue of NAMES.



If you would care to join the American Name Society for

1996, thus receiving all four issues for 96 (plus other

goodies), I will send you a copy of the Sept 95 issue

free. Regular memberships are $30. In addition to Murray's

'Coke' article, the September issue contains John Moore's

'Muskogee Personal Names' and Richard Coates' 'The First

American Placename in England: Pimlico.' Plus reviews and

shorter pieces.



If you do join the Society under this arrangement, specify

that your dues are for calendar 96.



******************************************************************

Edward Callary         Phone:  815-753-6627

Editor, NAMES         Fax:   815-753-0606

English Department       Internet: TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu

Northern Illinois University

DeKalb, Il 60115-2863

******************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:29:51 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: ?"dropping like flies" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 12:25:50 -0400 (EDT)

From: Linda Wright  lwright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]libby.rbls.lib.il.us 

To: STUMPERS-LIST  STUMPERS-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU 

Subject: ?"dropping like flies"



Hello all! This one has us completely frustrated! Our patron wants to

know the origin of the term "dropping like flies" or "to drop like flies".

We checked all of our David Feldman books, our slang dictionaries, _Morris

Dictionary of Word & Phrase Origins_, Partridge's _Dictionary of Catch

Phrases_, and the compact OED. It wasn't even alluded to in any of these.

HELP! (We even tried some dictionaries of colloquialisms with no luck.)



TIA!



Linda Wright

Musser Public Library

304 Iowa Avenue

Muscatine, Iowa 52761

(319) 263-3472

(319) 264-1033 (fax)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 18 Jul 1995 18:33:30 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: ! DROP LIKE FLIES (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 13:59:41 -0500 (EST)

From:thrasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mv3195.edison.cc.oh.us

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ! DROP LIKE FLIES



According to _Have a nice day -- no problem! : a dictionary of cliches_

by Christine Ammer (Dutton 1992)

drop like flies, to. To collapse rapidly, referring to a group rather

than an individual. Although this term calls to mind flies that are being

hit with a spray of insceticide and is, in fact, used for human beings

subjected to gunfire or an epidemic of disease, "like flies" has meant in

large numbers of quanities since Shakespeare's time. "The common people

swarm like summer flies" wrote the bard (Henry VI, Part 2, 6:8)



Hope this helps some.



Debby Thrasher**Edison Community College**Piqua, OH**thrasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]edison.cc.oh.us*

 voice (513) 778-8600 x 287 fax (513) 778-1920



"It is better to know useless things than to know nothing"  Seneca



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jul 1995 to 18 Jul 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 15 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "at the end of the day"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 19 Jul 1995 18:29:05 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: "at the end of the day"



A Capitol Bureau reporter for the St Petersburg (Florida) Times wants to know

why "at the end of the day" has become a popular spin phrase in politics (and

else where). He has searched leading newspapers and finds more than double

the citations from 1991 to 1994. I said I'd ask around and see what y'all

have to say about it.

 I will report back to him, but if any of you care to get in touch directly,

he's Bill Moss and his number is 904-224-7263.

 Thanks - Allan Metcalf   AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1995 to 19 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 249 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "at the end of the day" (4)

 2. ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)

 3. M. A. Programs in English

 4. End of the day

 5. At the end of the day...



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:54:28 PDT

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



Alan,



The opening words of a song somewhat popular in the thirties and sung as a

theme song fby Dolly Dawn, who fronted a dance band called "The Dawn

Patrol (shades of WWI), which used to perform high atop the Hotel Buffalo

in Buffalo New York in those times are as follows:



"My Cabin of Dreams"-



At the end of the day,

With my heart feeling gay,

I start wending my way

To my cabin of dreams.



I don't know why the use has increased in the nineties, but obviously the phrase

is long embedded in American English.



Tom Creswell--------------Original Message---------------

A Capitol Bureau reporter for the St Petersburg (Florida) Times wants to know

why "at the end of the day" has become a popular spin phrase in politics (and

else where). He has searched leading newspapers and finds more than double

the citations from 1991 to 1994. I said I'd ask around and see what y'all

have to say about it.

 I will report back to him, but if any of you care to get in touch directly,

he's Bill Moss and his number is 904-224-7263.

 Thanks - Allan Metcalf   AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 





----------End of Original Message----------



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 09:13:26 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)



I forwarded this message to my wife, who is native-born Czech, and

thought her reply might interest the list.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 20 Jul 1995 08:40:12 -0700 (PDT)

From: Milena McGraw  milenam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nethost.multnomah.lib.or.us 

To: Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu 

Subject: Re: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)



Never heard of "hac" as a word meaning to sit down and be quiet. There is

a "hacat" (c = tch) that means "to sit"--quiet or not. It's what you say to

babies and small children. "Hac" must come from that, but it must be a sort

of americanization/bastardization, because "hac" is not a verb form in

Czech.



 

  ---------- Forwarded message ----------

  Date: Tue, 18 Jul 1995 10:54:14 +0000

  From: Jenny Becker  beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ 

  To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L

  Subject: Re: ? Regionalism: "Put up," "Up" (fwd)

 

  My family (Czech community in Chicago) doesn't use "put up," but one thing

  I picked up from my grandparents (born in Chicago) was saying "on the

  attic" instead of "in." And just recently I discovered that what I thought

  was "hutch," which meant to sit down and be quiet ( I always envisioned a

  rabbit in its hutch), is actually "hac," which is Czech for, what else,

  "sit down and be quiet." Now I wonder how many other words that I think are

  English - but that no one outside my family recognizes - are actually

  Czech, or some variation of it.

 

  Jenny Becker

  beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz

 

 



Milena McGraw

S & B

x5478



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:46:36 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: M. A. Programs in English



Some of you may be getting sick of my administrative questions, but for

those of you who are kind enough to respond privately I say thanks for

hazarding an answer to the following somewhat absurd but nonetheless

important question for someone proposing a new M. A. in English in our

state system:



What are the three most outstanding programs in this country leading to an

M. A. in English?



There may be regional implications in the answers, I don't know.



Thanks for your patience,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 14:50:47 -0230

From:  "Philip Hiscock,

     MUN Folklore & Language Archive"  philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA 

Subject: End of the day



Allan Metcalf has asked about the phrase "at the end of the day" which

has achieved some currency in the States lately and which means the

same as "finally" or "after all is said and done." I am in Newfoundland,

in eastern Canada, and I first heard the phrase from a man I used to meet

at local, work-related meetings in the early 1980s -- about 1981, I would

guess. He was in his early fifties at the time and came from the West

of England, from Poole, I think. He had recently emigrated from England

to Canada and I assumed at the time he'd brought it with him. It was

a phrase that stuck out of his speech like a broken thumb; he was an

otherwise careful speaker with some graduate degree, who frequently

used the phrase in what seemed like a fashionable, for-lack-of-a-better-

word kind of way.

    I figured at the time it was in current use in Britain and

through the '80s I did notice British politicians using it on the news,

and British scholars using it in their speech. Canadian politicians

and journalists use it now, too.

                -Philip Hiscock

philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 18:44:36 +0000

From:  John Kirk  jkirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLIO.ARTS.QUB.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



Alan,



"At the end of the day" is very widespread here in Belfast - everyone from

politician to plumber seems to use in expressing their point of view about

what might ultimately happen:



At the end of the day we all want to live in peace.



Or it might express an ultimate inference or conclusion:



At the end of the day it all comes down to money.



On some occasions, though, it has a pragmatic function: either to seek

immediate agreement or to avoid addressing the present or the immediate -

as none of us can really know what will happen at the end of the day - so

your view is as good as mine right now.



Sp Philip Hiscock is right in pointing its use back to Britain. I'm sure if

you logged onto COBUILD direct on-line you'd come up with many examples

from their 215 million words (!) monitor corpus.



Best wishes,



John Kirk



==============================================================================

John M. Kirk

School of English

The Queen's University of Belfast



Email: J.M.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qub.ac.uk (used to be eng0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qub.ac.uk)





Fax: (+44) 1232 314615

Phone: (+44) 1232 245133, Ext 3815

============================================================================

=



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 14:45:23 EDT

From:  Steven Heffner  74754.517[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Re: At the end of the day...



Incidentally, the British pop group New Order's last album contained a song that

began with those 6 words. The song is "Everyone, Everywhere" and was one of

their top singles.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 12:07:29 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tincup.cxo.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



I'm sitting here trying to remember some of the music from Les Miserables. It

seems like there is a line or title with "at the end of the day" in it.



If so, any chance that the popularity of the musical has caused a resurgence in

the use of this phrase?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 20 Jul 1995 17:09:44 -0400

From:  Janet Marting  r1jm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DAX.CC.UAKRON.EDU 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



Jim,

The song from Les Miserables is "At the End of the Day." Sung by the

Poor, the Foreman, the Workers, Valjean, and Fontine, the song's opening

lyric is:

At the end of the day

you're another day older

and that's all you can say for the life of the poor,

it's a struggle, it's a war

and there's nothing that anyone's giving

one more day standing about

what is it for?



The song is heard at the beginning of the musical, just after Valjean is

released fron prison and just before "I Dreamed a Dream." One can only

hope that the musical was (is) popular enough to motivate people to

incorporate the line into their speech (I know that "One Day More" from

Les Mis is definitely a part of my repetoire!).



Janet Marting

Department of English

University of Akron

Akron, OH 44325



On Thu, 20 Jul 1995, Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tincup.cxo.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO wrote:



  I'm sitting here trying to remember some of the music from Les Miserables. It

  seems like there is a line or title with "at the end of the day" in it.

 

  If so, any chance that the popularity of the musical has caused a resurgence in

  the use of this phrase?

 

  -- Jim

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 1995 to 20 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 43 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. at the end of the day

 2. "at the end of the day"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Jul 1995 00:07:14 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: at the end of the day



I think I first heard "at the end of the day" in YES, MINISTER;

has that series won a following in the capitol press?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 21 Jul 1995 09:08:51 PDT

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



Alan,



But seriously, it seems obvious, especially in the later responses to your message,

that "at the end of the day" has become, like earlier "finalize," "contact," and more

recent "bottom line," what in an ironic mimicking of its own sense was called a

"buzz word"--a term popular, even a book title, in the 70's. Like all such ex=

presions, "buzz word" seems not so frequently used as sit once was.



It is interesting to note that, like the other examples I list above, "at the end of the

day" has long been a part of the language but has suddenly become for whatever

reason an expression by use of which you demonstrate that you are "with it."



Tom Creswell

---------------Original Message---------------

A Capitol Bureau reporter for the St Petersburg (Florida) Times wants to know

why "at the end of the day" has become a popular spin phrase in politics (and

else where). He has searched leading newspapers and finds more than double

the citations from 1991 to 1994. I said I'd ask around and see what y'all

have to say about it.

 I will report back to him, but if any of you care to get in touch directly,

he's Bill Moss and his number is 904-224-7263.

 Thanks - Allan Metcalf   AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 





----------End of Original Message----------



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1995 to 21 Jul 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "at the end of the day"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 22 Jul 1995 16:15:01 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: "at the end of the day"



A possible Irish source for this phrase . . . My colleague Michael

Phelan (who uses the phrase around the office) says that it appears

nearly word-for-word in Irish, as

    I ndeireadh an la`

    in/at  the end  of  the day



chris brooks / kuwait



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jul 1995 to 22 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 577 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. language and legislation conference

 2. does anyone know? (2)

 3. idear (3)

 4. NEH update (lengthy)

 5. *Regionalism "Put up": thanks & summary (fwd)

 6. "On the Thames.."

 7. from the get-go/git-go



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 10:32:00 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: language and legislation conference



Please post or forward this announcement:



"Language Legislation": An International Conference



Organizers:



Dennis E. Baron, English

Eyamba Bokamba, Division of English as an International Language

Braj B. Kachru, Linguistics

Douglas A. Kibbee, French



Dates:



March 28-30, 1996.



The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign will host a conference on

language legislation. A select group of invited speakers from around the

world will address social issues such as community vs. individual rights,

cultural survival, free trade and linguistic issues such as language and

culture, language and power, bilingualism.

    Language legislation and the concept of linguistic human rights have

moved to the forefront of national and international news. In the United

States, language legislation has taken the form of the national English

Language Amendment, and a variety of state and local ordinances. In the US,

legal solutions to perceived threats have quickly found their way to the

courts, with appeals leading all the way to the United States Supreme

Court.  Many other countries around the globe have erected legal barriers

against the penetration of English or other languages perceived as threats.

 These laws often conflict with guarantees of individual human rights,

such as the UN Charter or the D=E9claration des Droits de l'Homme. In the

realm of international law, language protection has colored debate on such

issues as the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and has

influenced the structure of international institutions like the European

Community and the United Nations.

  For further information, contact:



            Douglas A. Kibbee

            Language Legislation Conference

            Department of French

            University of Illinois

            2090 Foreign Languages Building/ MC-158

            707 South Mathews Avenue

            Urbana IL 61801

            USA



=46AX: (1) (217) 244-2223

email: dkibbee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ux1.cso.uiuc.edu



-----------------



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 11:05:43 CST

From:  Lisa Pogoff  POGOFFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US 

Subject: does anyone know?



Does anyone know the origin of the phrase, "To die for"? Someone

recently said that my daughter had eyes "to die for." I wondered if

there was some literary origin to this. Thanks.







Lisa Pogoff

Community Relations Coordinator

phone 612/215-0916

fax 612/0975

lisa.pogoff[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]health.state.mn.us

hours: M, T, W, Th: 8-4:30



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 15:09:33 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW  dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM 

Subject: idear



Can anyone point me to a convincing explanation of reports

that some Massachussans "simultaneously" drop their r's

and yet add extraneoous hard-r's, like idear and Florider?



I used to notice it, but haven't noticed it in years.



An "outsider" reported hearing these as a child when she

moved here from the midwest, and wasn't convinced with

any of the following possibilites I floated:



1) Where the standard dialect has two allophones, the dialect

  has one pronoounced halfway between, so an outsider always

  hears the opposite.



  (She said the difference was quite distinct.)



2) They may have retroflex and non-retroflex allophones for

  different social registers. Again, outsiders notice the

  -r's in endings they never curl themselves, but fail to

  take notice of the reappearance of the same r's in their

  "real-r" endings.



  (She thought they could mix them in the same sentences.)



3) They may have overcorrected based on contamination from

  nearby dialects, perhaps for certain words associated with

  the wider world --the "Lon-Gisland effect" (It's New Yorkers

  and New Jerseyans, not Long-Islanders, who say Lon-Gisland.)



  (She thought they were pure Massachuttans)



Thanks,



Doug Bayer



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:37:51 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: NEH update (lengthy)



For those who want to know about NEH funding and future, here is another

report from our observation post in Washington, the National Humanities

Alliance. It's long!

- Allan Metcalf



****************************************



20 July 1995



TO:   NHA Members and Friends

FR:   John Hammer and Cuc Vu



RE:   Washington News Update: 1. House votes FY-96 appropriation

                  for NEH, NEA, and IMS

                2. Senate Committee completes work

                  on NEH et al reauthorization

__________________________________________________________________



1. House Action - It Could Have Been Much Worse



The House approved a FY-1996 Interior Appropriations Bill (H.R.

1977) after debate spread over 5 days that includes appropriations

for the cultural agencies as follows:

                       Actual*  Approved

    (in millions)             FY-95   FY-96



National Endowment for the Humanities (NEH)  $172.0   99.5

National Endowment for the Arts (NEA)     162.4   99.5

Institute of Museum Services (IMS)       28.7   21.0

Smithsonian Institution            362.7  350.4

National Gallery of Art             56.9   56.8

Woodrow Wilson International Center       8.9   5.2

National Capital Arts & Cultural Affairs     7.5   6.0



[*Figures assume that the FY95 Rescissions will be taken. The

 revised rescissions bill, over which the administration and

Congressional leaders reached agreement, will reduce both NEH and

NEA by $5 million. An earlier version of the rescissions bill was

vetoed by President Clinton.]



While a 42% reduction for NEH is extraordinarily sharp and clearly

indicates that NEH and its sister agencies were singled out for

much greater reductions than most other agencies in the Interior

budget--and the bill includes the 3-year phase out contained in

the committee-passed reauthorization bill (the Goodling bill)--

there are several positive points to note:



    o Although the NEH is not formally authorized, it has

survived the budget process through a floor vote in the House;



    o Due to the way in which the Rules battle played out in the

House, NEH, IMS, and numerous other unauthorized programs like the

Bureau of Land Management can continue in FY-96 even if there is

not a formal reauthorization. (Unfortunately, the NEA may not go

forward in FY-96 unless the restriction is lifted through

negotiation with the Senate, completion of reauthorization, or a

change of heart on the part of the GOP leadership.)



    o Supporters of the endowments in Congress (with

encouragement from many including NHA members) managed to steer

through many parliamentary and other impediments despite the

almost unanimous opposition to their retention by the GOP House

leadership.



By the time the appropriations for the endowments reached the

floor, they had already been on a long roller coaster ride. Late

last year, the GOP leaders pronounces that unauthorized programs

would not be considered by the appropriating committee (a

situation that blurred when other programs valued by the GOP

leaders turned out to be unauthorized). By Spring, Interior

appropriations subcommittee chair Ralph Regula (R-OH 16th) was

speaking of process NEH and NEA in the FY-96 legislation but

expected them to be tossed out on a point of order when introduced

on the floor due to the lack of authorization. When the bill

reached the floor, an agreement between Mr. Regula and the ranking

minority member Sidney Yates (D-Il 9th)--which could not have been

reached without GOP leadership agreement--had produced a waiver

from the Rules Committee protecting unauthorized programs from

points of order.



The floor battle began as the curtain rose late in the day on

Wednesday, July 12. Dissident GOP freshmen called for the defeat

of the rule which protected the endowments (especially NEA) from

expulsion due to lack of current authorization. All but 20 of the

Democrats joined the dissidents to bring about the first defeat of

a rule in the 104th Congress 235 to 193. While many of the

Democrats are long-time friends of the endowments, the vote seems

to have been seen as a) an opportunity to hand the GOP leaders a

defeat, and b) a possibility to reopen some of the environmental

issues decisions they opposed. Unfortunately under the revised

rule which was accepted the next day, the GOP Freshman gained new

concessions on the NEA including a phase out in only two years for

NEA and strong on-the-record pressure for negotiators with the

Senate to yield nothing on the NEA provisions. During the

discussion, Mr. Regula and Mr. Goodling both seemed to agree that

the 2-year phaseout for NEA would be adhered to by both

appropriations and authorization negotiators. The Democrats' role

in the defeat of the rule gained little or nothing in terms of

changes in environmental areas (e.g., the virtual dismantling of

the Biological Survey which is important in the implementation of

the Endangered Species Act).



The going was better after the initial defeat. The groundwork had

been well laid among GOP moderates and Democratic friends of the

endowments. Rep. Peter Torkildsen (R-MA 6th) had built a series

of "Dear Colleague" letters co-signed by a number of other GOP

and, sometimes, Democratic members calling for reasonable

appropriations. After the Appropriations Committee markup, Mr.

Torkildsen collaborated with Louise Slaughter (D-NY 28th) in a

letter signed by several others saying the endowments have already

borne major reductions and calling for firm resistance to any

further cuts.



On Monday, Cliff Stearns (R-FL 6th) came forward with another of

his often successful amendments to cut the NEA--this time by $10

million. Support for the NEA was strong and especially

bipartisan. The amendment was defeated 179 to 227.



Also debated on monday was an amendment offered by Steve Chabot

(R-OH 1st) to eliminate all funding for NEH from the bill. Again,

there was a strong, bipartisan, support for the agency from, among

others, Tillie Fowler (R-FL), Nancy Johnson (R-CT), Sheila

Jackson-Lee (D-TX 18th), Nita Lowey (D-NY 18th), Bill Martini (R-

NJ 8th), Connie Morella (R-MD-8th), Nancy Pelosi (D-CA 8th), and

David Skaggs (D-CO). In speaking in opposition, Bill Goodling (R-

PA 19th) noted that the bill did not even provide the NEH with the

$134 million called for in his reauthorization bill. The vote on

the Chabot amendment was taken the following day when it was

rejected 148 to 277--a major affirmation for the NEH which has not

been the target of an up-or-down vote of this type in the 104th

Congress.





2. NEH & NEA RECEIVE BIPARTISAN SENATE SUPPORT FOR REAUTHORIZATION



On Wednesday, July 19 the Senate Committee on Labor & Human

Resources reauthorized the National Endowment for the Humanities

(NEH) and the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) by a strong

bipartisan vote of 12-4. The reauthorization bill (S. 856) was

co-sponsored by Senators James Jeffords (R-VT), Nancy Kassebaum

(R-KS), Christopher Dodd (D-CT), Edward Kennedy (D-MA), Claiborne

Pell (D-RI) and Alan Simpson (R-WY). The next challenge for the

Committee will be to schedule the bill for a vote on the Senate

floor.



S. 856



S. 856 reauthorizes the endowments for five years starting in

FY96. Both the NEH and NEA will receive 5% cuts each year for

five years as follows:



        FY96  FY97  FY98  FY99  FY00



NEH       $160m $152m $144m $137m $130m



NEA       $153m $146m $138m $131m $125m



Of the sums appropriated each fiscal year, 30% shall be reserved

for state humanities councils as partnership grants (of which 5%

will go to elementary and secondary education in the humanities),

35% for national grants, and another 35% for research and

scholarship grants. This represents an adoption of amendments

offered by Bill Frist (R-TN) which eliminated elementary and

secondary education in the humanities from the purpose of national

grants, increased partnership grants from 25% to 30%, and reduced

both national grants and research and scholarship grants from

37.5% to 35%.



S. 856 also stipulates that the endowments may not spend more than

12% of the sums for each fiscal year on administrative costs such

as rent for office space and personnel. Some of the

administrative costs are fixed and are very difficult to

reconfigure without personnel reductions. If the agencies only

receive $99.5 million as the House has agreed and as the Senate

Interior Appropriations Subcommittee may offer next week, the

endowments may well have to release more than half of their staff

in an effort to retain as much of the programs as possible. This

bill also requires the endowments to merge a number of

administrative functions. The NEH has been thinking for some time

about how to make adjustments to various budget levels. No one

doubts that there will be personnel reductions.





LABOR COMMITTEE MARKUP OF S. 856



The endowments received solid support from all of the committee's

Democrats and the handful of moderate GOP members, particularly

Jeffords. Arts and humanities advocates also picked up a few

hints from Slade Gorton (R-WA), who also has oversight of NEH

appropriations as the chairman of the Senate Interior

Appropriations Subcommittee. In his supportive comments on

Spencer Abraham's (R-MI) amendment to privatize the NEA and NEH,

Gorton also made inference to following the House appropriations

mark of $99.5 million for the endowments, which is a major turn

away from his recent discussion of zeroing out the NEH in the

Senate interior appropriations bill. Moreover, Gorton cast one of

the twelve votes to reauthorize the endowments. Gorton's support

may have been influenced by a bipartisan sign-on letter by Alan

Simpson (R-WY) and Christopher Dodd (D-CT) that urged Gorton and

his Democratic colleague Robert Byrd (D-WV) to follow the Labor

Committee's funding recommendations and not make deep cuts to the

budgets of the endowments. Thirty-four members of the Senate

signed the letter, including eight Republicans--James Jeffords (R-

VT), Arlen Specter (R-PA), Ben Nighthorse Campbell (R-CO), Orrin

Hatch (R-UT), Robert Bennet (R-UT), John Chaffee (R-RI), Bill

Cohen (R-ME), and Mr. Simpson.



On the other hand, Bill Frist (R-TN), who did not comment on any

of the amendments, joined Dan Coats (R-IN), John Ashcroft (R-MO),

and Spencer Abraham (R-MI) and voted against reauthorization.



Frist also supported the Abraham amendment to privatize the

agencies and the Ashcroft-Gregg amendment to reduce the budgets of

the endowments by 50% over five years. While defeat of the

Abraham and Ashcroft-Gregg amendments did not hinge on Frist's

vote, many observers believed that Frist's actions in yesterday's

markup conflicted with assurances of support for the endowments

during the development of the revised bill.



The endowments, however, still have the backing of Jeffords and

Nancy Kassebaum, although Kassebaum made very clear yesterday her

growing frustration with the arts endowment and the recent

controversy about an allegedly sexually explicit performance piece

by a gay artist at Highways, a theater and performance art space

in Los Angeles that received an NEA grant last year.



The following is a summary of the proposed amendments to S. 856.



o ABRAHAM AMENDMENT. Proposed to privatize the endowments by

reducing their budgets by 20% each year for five years,

focusing on fundraising, and changing the tax codes to

further stimulate charitable giving.



The amendment was defeated by a vote of 10-6. All seven

Democrats joined with three Republicans--Jeffords, Kassebaum,

and Gregg--to oppose the amendment.



o DODD AMENDMENT. Christopher Dodd's (D-CT) amendment

proposed to direct $150,000 for a study to assess the

feasibility of establishing a true endowment. The money will

come directly from the budgets of both the NEA and NEH.

Spencer Abraham said he would like the study to also examine

his questions about privatization.



Only Dan Coats (R-IN) opposed the amendment.



o ASHCROFT-GREGG AMENDMENT. Proposed to reduce the budgets

of the endowments by 50% over five years. Ashcroft and Gregg

argued that the proposal is more consistent with the Senate

budget resolution (to fund the endowments in FY96 at 50%

below FY95 levels) as well as the goals for deficit

reduction.



The amendment failed on a tie (8-8) vote. Jeffords was the

lone Republican to oppose the amendment.



o KENNEDY-PELL AMENDMENT. Proposed to restore seven

categories for individual grants, including jazz and dance,

which were all stripped from the Jeffords bill except

literature fellowships.



The amendment was defeated by a vote of 9-7 along party

lines.



o DEWINE AMENDMENT. Creates 10% set-aside for underserved

communities. Also changes language pertaining to underserved

communties from "preference" to "priority."



The amendment was accepted by a vote of 12-4.





SUBCOMMITTEE ON INTERIOR APPROPRIATIONS MARKUP



Markup on NEH FY96 budget is scheduled for the week of July 24.

As mentioned above, the chairman suggested that he will follow the

House mark and appropriate $99.5 million for each endowment.









  Cuc Vu

  National Humanities Alliance

  21 Dupont Circle, N.W. Suite 800

  Washington, D.C.  20036

   (202) 296-4994

   Internet: cuc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 16:34:18 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: idear



It is well-established that some r-less dialects (Eastern New England, RP

in England) also have "linking r". This is a shibboleth in RP, decried as

awful by purists but occuring in the speech of a great many. "Linking r"

occurs intervocalically. People used to say that JFK said "Cubar"; he

only said that when the word following Cuba began with a vowel, as in

"Cuba and the USSR", so that the r actually belongs to the environment

(intervocalic juncture) rather than to particular words. The classic test

for the word by dialectologists is the phrase "the idea of it", somewhat

passe now but formerly a common phrase, i.e., "linking r" users would put

an r sound between "idea" and "of".



"Linking r" is different from "excrescent r", which is the insertion of a

non-etymological r sound within a syllable, as when the words "wash" or

"Washington" are pronounced as "warsh" and "Warshington". In Linguistic

Atlas files (mid-century, not current), "excrescent r" seems most frequent

in the Midland (esp. West Virginia and western PA) but scattered

occurrences are found also in the North. My own grandma, from central

Michigan, was a decided "excrescent r" user.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 14:40:33 PDT

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tincup.cxo.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: does anyone know?



   Does anyone know the origin of the phrase, "To die for"? Someone

   recently said that my daughter had eyes "to die for."



Rather than worrying about the literary origin of the phrase, I think you

should be more worried about the person using the phrase in reference to your

daughter!  grin 



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:52:04 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: idear



"William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU  explained the

difference between the "linking r" and "excrescent r" in various

dialects in a post earlier today. It made me wonder if the common

pronunciation of "sherbet" as "sherbert" could also be counted as

another example of this excrescence? If so, why does "sherbert" occur

in so much wider an area than the habitual excrescent r tendency? My

family in Cleveland, for example, always eats sherbert, but never

warshes the bowls afterwards. Explanation?



Tim Behrend

Asian Languages

University of Auckland



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 19:09:06 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: *Regionalism "Put up": thanks & summary (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 22 Jul 1995 17:16:48 -0400

From:NLGilbert[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

To: mphair[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.bcpl.lib.md.us, STUMPERS-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: *Regionalism "Put up": thanks & summary





Dear stumpers,



A week ago I'd asked about the regionalism "put up," which I'd only heard in

my own family. During the week I saw my folks again, and Dad innocently

boasted that he'd put up ingredients in his new bread machine in honor of my

visit.



Special thanks to Dan Goodman for forwarding my query to the American Dialect

Society list, whence, among several interesting responses, Elizabeth Sklar

matched my demographics pretty precisely and traced "put up" through Yiddish

/ Russian / East Coast origins. My guess is that it could be an

Americanization of the Yiddish "oyf" ("up," same as German "auf," which means

both "up" and "on").



Thanks to stumpers Beth Bojack, Montgomery Phair, Chana Lajcher, and Jean

Lowerison/Roxanne Richards for sharing other regionalisms: "he don't," "gone

up" (which I know as a theatrical term -- to "go up" on one's lines means to

forget them), "Pick me down" (unique to Chana's toddling daughter, so far),

and the Calypso-isms "Up the window" and and "Full a glass," respectively.

 Also thanks to Alison Hendon, who puts up coffee overnight as she puts out

cats.



With thanks for putting up with my off-topic request,



Nina Gilbert (whose current irrelevant question might be, how long does one

have to live at a new address before the ratio of wrong numbers in Spanish

drops below 50% of one's phone calls)



- - - - - - - - - -

NLGilbert[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

Music historian and choral conductor

Falls Church, Virginia



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:28:50 -0500

From:  Ditra Henry  udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "On the Thames.."



A very interesting discussion has come about between myself and a

collegue. He is from Conneticut and he said there is a city there named

Norwich and there is a river that flows between Norwich and a place

called New London. The name of the river is the Thames. However the

name is pronounced with the 'th' sound in thigh and ames rhymes with ames

in James. Since the Brits do not use this prnounciation we were

wondering how the natives to this area came up with this pornunciation.

Is it from the old English or is it a spelling pronunciation that may

have come about years later after the original founders passed on?





Puzzled in Chicago



Ditra and Ken

Northeastern Illinois University

5700 NOrth St. Louis Ave.

Chicago, Il 60654



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 24 Jul 1995 20:43:03 GMT

From:  Barnhart  Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: from the get-go/git-go



See:

Wentworth & Flexner (supplement), Dictionary of American Slang

Chapman, New Dictionary of American Slang

Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang



If looking for the origin you will probably be disappointed. Such terms are

difficult to pin down. The earliest recorded usage is 1966. It probably

derives from the commonly recorded idiom: to get going.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.comSee:

Wentworth & Flexner (supplement), Dictionary of American Slang

Chapman, New Dictionary of American Slang

Lighter, Historical Dictionary of American Slang



If looking for the origin you will probably be disappointed. Such terms are

difficult to pin down. The earliest recorded usage is 1966.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1995 to 24 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 344 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. idear (2)

 2. "On the Thames.."

 3. Sherbert

 4. sherb't

 5. sherbe(r)t (4)

 6. does anyone know?

 7. quill

 8. White w/one (was sherbe(r)t)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 00:36:11 -0400

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: idear



Bill's explanation is quite correct about the so-called "linking-r" in

Eastern New England and the fact that it is junctural and occurs

intervocalically when one word ends in a vowel and the next word begins with

a vowel. Hence JFK's "Cuba rand the United States" is quite natural for us

in these parts as is "law rand order" with no /r/ phone in "order". One of

my nieces had a passion for "rice cream" based upon her hearing "vanilla rice

cream" as a normal request for vanilla ice cream. She would never say

"vaniller", nor did JFK ever say "Cubar.



"Idear is found in the New England Atlas by speakers who live very close to

the boundary between Eastern and Western New England speech (by and large the

Conn. River), and they are predominantly r-ful. What they have heard is "the

idea rof it", and they interpret it to have their own word bounday in "idea'

which is then realized as "idear". No r-ful speaker that I am aware of ever

attaches the /r/ to "of" to produce "rof". That would sound silly.



The reason we have this so-called "linking-r" and not "idear", "Cubar", and

"vaniller" is that we lack post-vocalic /r/, and I suspect a good many of us

also lack intervocalic /r/ which leads me to a comment I had intended to make

about the pron of harrassmen duting the earlier discussion. In ENE the first

two syllables of "harrassment" do not rhyme with "her *ss".



What this means is that we have only pre-vocalic /r/, and we do nor rhyme

"mary" "marry" and "merry", nor do we rhyme "furry", "hurry", and "worry".

 In my salad days I didn't quite know what to make of people who did.



Regards,



David R. Carlson

Springfield College



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:14:20 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: "On the Thames.."



Yes, Ditra and Ken, the Connecticut river is pronounced as spelled,

Thames-rhymes-with-James-and-begins-with-interdental-unvoiced-fricative.

Incidentally, the small city of Norwich is pronounced differently, too.

The 'w' is pronounced, and it would be 'nor-witch' except that the

prevailing CT accent makes it closer to 'naw - witch.'!



Other New England place names vary from their English counterparts--

memory fails me this instant--but the CT city of Berlin is stressed

on the first syllable: BER-lin. I think this was a circa-WW II

change, as a result of some anti-German feeling. ADS-ers, please

correct if I'm wrong.  Chris Brooks / Kuwait via Hartford.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 09:24:08 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Sherbert



I have no explanation for this one, besides something like

word-internal syllable-rhyme. The pronunciation with two r's seems to be

very common in the American Northern region, from my own experience, but

I don't know about any survey research on the item.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 11:52:33 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW  dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM 

Subject: Re: sherb't



Tim Behrend asked about the pronunciation of "sherbe[r]t."

I'll take a stab:



In this case, the unstressed syllable echoes the vowel

in the stressed syllable. There's simply no other

sound or stress in the word to cause speakers to budge

out of "er" position.



Vowels in unstressed syllables in English centralize--

to "uh" /V/ near back vowels, or to a central "ih" /-I-/

near front vowels and dental consononants.



In fact, the job of an unstressed vowel is not to add or

subtract information or otherwise draw attention to itself.

If you don't centralize such a vowel, you change the stress

pattern of the word.



This "er" is a third variation of "uh" and "ih". To uncurl

the tongue and unround the lips after "sher" and noticibly

move the tongue to "eh" /E/ position is to give "bet"

secondary stress -- it makes "sherb't" a "sure bet."



The er is particularly noticible near the Great Lakes because

of strong vowel raising and the heavily retroflex r there.

So it seems we're gone the next step and reinterpreted

"sherb't" as "sherbert" to better fit our native phonology.

We notice when we're surprised by sherbet's foreign spelling.



--Doug Bayer



 LONG 

I add the following because you work with Asian languages,

Tim, and propably have contact with Asian speakers of English.

(Q: Was Aukland speech born of Northern English and Scots,

like Great Lakes speech, or of Southern English, like

New England?)



Even though "er" is a digraph, the two letters

represent a monothong -- a mid-to-close central vowel.

I grew up in Rochester, NY using noticibly "raised" or

close vowels in "have and "bird" ("hAYIf" and bWRd")

This is characteristic of most "Great Lakes" accents,

(the sales-region of the "Death of a Salesman"...)

Now I live in Eastern Mass, where folks use far broader

vowels ("hahf" and "bI:d"). But the "hard-r"and "r-dropping"

pronunciations are both retroflex. New Englanders may lower

their tongues, but they don't uncurl them.



Another characteristic of the American r is lip-rounding.

We were taught that the initial "w" is silent in "write"

and "wrong," but for us it's alive and well -- as well as

in "read" and "right"." Some English teachers in Japan

have had good success teaching initial r- to their students

by instructing them always to append an invisible w-.

Lip-rounding alone fools most listeners into thinking

that the speaker is curling back her tongue.



Furthermore, the G-L "sh" tends to be lip-rounded, and even

retroflex. This I rarely see noted. But I've had remarkable

and immediate success teaching Japanese students to

pronounce our hard-r by first teaching them my "sh."

You see, a sonogram of the Japanese "sh" /Sy/ shows peak

energy well above 4kHz, near "s," while the American "sh"

peaks as low as 2kHz. This is near the Japanese bilabial

"F" /Hw/. So I instruct them to blend "fu" and "shi"

into "fwsh" for an Amurrican "sh," then tell them to add

voicing and reduce the frictation. Voilar! R!



Finally, Great-Lakers regularly pronounce final -t as a

glottal stop /?/, without changing tongue position.

There's no hint of any t-like gesture toward the ridge

behind the teeth in "ca?" "hur?" "ge?" "visi?"...

"sure be?" or "sherber?"



This leaves "sherb" containing exclusively lip-rounded,

retroflex phonemes /sh/ and /er/, the labial /b/, and a

vowel that is unstressed, so whose job it is not to do

anything.



--Doug Bayer



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:16:07 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: sherbe(r)t



I'm just looking at the entry in Webster's Dictionary of English Usage on

this subject: they conclude that sherbert is a standard variant, found most

heavily in 20th c. English and American usage, even if the second r is

unetymological. What they don't cover is the sherbert/sorbet distinction,

which seems to me to function today like the spaghetti/pasta distinction

and the many names for coffees: a yuppy phenom. My kids, who apparently

are yuppies, eat pasta, while I still cook them spaghetti. And I am told to

buy ice cream for the kids and sorbet for the grownups when I head out to

Baskin Robbins. I always ask for sherbert, since it must be cheaper than

sorbet.



Dennis (who is learning to say double nothing for large decaf cappucino

made with skim milk)



--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:10:58 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: idear



Further on the responses by Bill Kretzschmar and David Carlson: you

can find good discussions and LANE maps of the post-vocalic ("work"),

final ("father") and linking ("law-r-and-order") /r/ in NEw ENgland

speech in the ADS centennial volume (Francis's article, 18-22, and

LANE Map 550 in "American Dialect Research", ed. dI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s Preston, I

believe), which notes the generalization that you tend to find

'law-r-an-ohdeh' East, and 'law-and-order' West, of the Connecticut,

presumably thanks to Boston's influence. I'm not sure how current this

generalization is and would be interested to know, as I use this

sometimes as a convenient teaching example. An even earlier view was

Bernard Bloch's "Postvocalic /r/ in New England Speech..." (1939),

partially reproduced with his own charts in Allen & Underwood, 1971,

'Readings in American Dialectology'.

    AS to sherbet, which I love, whenever I find it in the stores

these days it's almost invariably dubbed 'sorbet', which eliminates the

second /r/ entirely for the linguistically insecure, though it appears

to considerably raise the price of the product... (If 'sherbert' might

be influenced by 'Herbert', what about 'sorbet'? Corbet? corbeille?)

    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 13:12:52 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: does anyone know?



for some reason, which I can't document or argue for, I have an

inkling that "to die for" may be a Yiddicism. Anyone know?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 12:22:13 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: quill



Is anyone familiar with present-day use of "quill" to mean a drinking straw?

If so, can you give me the details of when, where, and by whom?

Thanks--

Joan Hall, DARE

jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 15:08:23 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



The distinction I've been using (in New York City) is that sherbet

has some milk or cream in it, though less than ice cream, and sorbet

is a fancy term for ices.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 16:32:03 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



Vicki,

    I don't believe your recollection of sherbet w/milk is correct.

Neither sherbet nor sorbet (nor sherbert), classically, should have

any milk products in them. The distinction you're thinking of may be ice

milk vs. ice cream, latter having more milkfat. This was never systematic

and was recently abolished by the FDA in favor of the more specific

(though still somewhat subjective) system of "ice cream", "reduced ice

cream", "low-fat ice cream", and "fat-free icecream", respectively

having less and less milkfat. Sherbet, however you spell it, never had

any, as far as I'm aware, but used gelatin for body.

    That's the US marketing tradition. But in the Arabic

tradition, it wasn't even frozen-- just a cool drink of fruit juice

and water and sugar (Arabic "sharbah" is the root, related to our

'syrup'). People in Vikram Seth's 'A Suitable Boy' are always drinking

sherbet, for example.

    Then again, I won't be responsible for what some company has

put into a box and called "sherbe(r)t"!

    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 18:56:45 -0400

From:  Margaret Ronkin  ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



     I haven't been following the details of this discussion,

so please excuse me if I'm repeating something here. But, according

to The Random House College Dictionary, which is what I've got handy,

sherbet, on the one hand (North American?), contains milk, egg white,

OR gelatin; on the other hand (British; maybe colonial backflow), it

refers to a "drink made of sweetened fruit juice diluted with water

and ice". But the NY distinction that Vicki refers to is also what I

grew up (all over the globe) with at home; my parents are both native

Californians.



    My knowledge of Arabic is limited to loan words in modern

Indo-Aryan and Iranian languages, and enough insecurity/curiosity

to check things out in the OED. But sharba (with an aspirated final

vowel), I believe, derives from the infinitive shariba (to drink);

syrup and its kin ultimately derive, of course, from sharab (wine and

other drinks/beverages, and one of the Muslim world's big time poetic

metaphors).



    Nowadays, to make the wonderful sherbet (Turkish and Persian

= sherbet) that Peter writes about, one buys bottles of thick and very,

very heavily sweetened syrup (on display at every convenience store and

chemists'), pours a bit into a tall glass, and adds cold water and ice.

There's nothing to beat this in 100+ degree heat; I recommend buying

the mango flavo(u)r and boiling the water.





Maggie



 On

Tue, 25 Jul 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:



  Vicki,

      I don't believe your recollection of sherbet w/milk is correct.

  Neither sherbet nor sorbet (nor sherbert), classically, should have

  any milk products in them. The distinction you're thinking of may be ice

  milk vs. ice cream, latter having more milkfat. This was never systematic

  and was recently abolished by the FDA in favor of the more specific

  (though still somewhat subjective) system of "ice cream", "reduced ice

  cream", "low-fat ice cream", and "fat-free icecream", respectively

  having less and less milkfat. Sherbet, however you spell it, never had

  any, as far as I'm aware, but used gelatin for body.

      That's the US marketing tradition. But in the Arabic

  tradition, it wasn't even frozen-- just a cool drink of fruit juice

  and water and sugar (Arabic "sharbah" is the root, related to our

  'syrup'). People in Vikram Seth's 'A Suitable Boy' are always drinking

  sherbet, for example.

      Then again, I won't be responsible for what some company has

  put into a box and called "sherbe(r)t"!

      --peter patrick

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:23:34 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: White w/one (was sherbe(r)t)



Dennis, I loved coffee orders in Australia (IAFL). I had to learn to

get what people wanted when they asked for a white with one.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1995 to 25 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 131 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "On the Thames.."

 2. sherbe(r)t

 3. A History of God (2)

 4. clothing terms

 5. put up, off-the-point

 6. sherbe(r)t -Reply



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 23:50:52 -0700

From:  kim mckinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: "On the Thames.."



You might want to check out the "Pronouncing Dictionary of Proper Names"

for lots of examples of this sort (e.g., Cairo, Lima, Houston, Galveston).



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Jul 1995 11:55:33 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



My Kuwaiti students inform me that sherbet in the Arab world is

the thick concentrate from a reddish fruit like strawberry which is

often served at Egyptian weddings. The sherbet is mixed with sugar

and water, as several ADS-ers have noted, and served. The Arabic

root is s^ / r / b .  Apparrently there are other sherbets made

from nuts, like almonds. This is called 'sherbet bedan.'



Here in Kuwait it is currently 47 C degrees outside, and I could

really go for a sherbet right now!        chris brooks



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:37:57 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: A History of God



I just finished Karen ARmstrong's book. While I found her bias against

Western Christianity a little heavy handed, I found the book interesting.

Especially her contention that Islam in its original Koranic form wa

smore tolerant of other religions and even of women than the current

version which she claims was hijacked by macho Arab imperialists. Any

comments? Please address me directly, if possible.



Tim Frazer\

Western Illinois University.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Jul 1995 10:41:25 -0500

From:  Cukor-Avila Patricia  pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOVE.ACS.UNT.EDU 

Subject: clothing terms



I have a grad. student who is doing a project on terminology used by

department stores to describe their departments and merchandise,

specifically clothing. She's looking at department stores at all levels,

i.e., Wal-Mart to Neiman Marcus. Does anyone know of any similar studies

or any published material she could look at for some background

research? You can answer me directly at pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jove.acs.unt.edu.

Thanks in advance.



Patricia Cukor-Avila



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Jul 1995 13:19:06 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: put up, off-the-point



DARE's evidence suggests that "put up," as in "I'll put up a pot of coffee,"

is localized in the NYC area. Another term from New York City is "off-the-

point," for a sidewalk ball game that involves throwing a spaldeen at the

corner edge of a building. Does anyone remember that? If so, when? Where?

How was/is it played?

Thanks.



Joan Hall, DARE

jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 26 Jul 1995 16:09:28 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: A History of God



On Wed, 26 Jul 1995, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:



  I just finished Karen ARmstrong's book. While I found her bias against

  Western Christianity a little heavy handed, I found the book interesting.

  Especially her contention that Islam in its original Koranic form wa

  smore tolerant of other religions and even of women than the current

  version which she claims was hijacked by macho Arab imperialists. Any

  comments? Please address me directly, if possible.

 

  Tim Frazer\

  Western Illinois University.

 

 As a student of comparitive religion in my spare time, I remember reading

somewhere that Islam wasn't even meant to be a religion; unlike Jesus, Moham-

med was not supposed to be God made flesh. Just a prophet passing on God's

word. Which got him banned from his home city of Mecca, because he was prea-

ching that all religions are true under the One God; as long as you believe

in One God, you are practicing true religion. He saw his mission as uniting

all monotheists, without necessarily creating a new religion. He reportedly

asked Jews and Christians to join him in what he saw as a common cause rather

than a religion; in fact he is reputed to have no interest in getting anyone

to change their religion, as long as they already followed the One God. For

some reason the Jews and Christians never took him up on it. I think Moham-

med, wherever he is, is horrified at what Islam and Christianity alike have

become. I don't think this is what he had in mind. He'd probably convert to

Judaism if he returned. I think you'll find this article in a recent issue

of Time or Newsweek, I forget which.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 25 Jul 1995 17:59:07 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Gregory  WPODOM1.AGCOM.EGREGORY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t -Reply



Re: the constitution of sherbet:



For what it's worth (perhaps not much, from the linguistics perspective),

Winburne's _Dictionary of Agricultural and Allied Terminology_ (1962)

defines sherbet as "a dessert made from water with the addition of milk

or skim milk solids, stabilizer, sugar, with or without egg whites, and

natural flavoring, frozen to the consistency of ice cream."





Elizabeth Gregory

Assistant Professor and Extension Communications Specialist

Department of Agricultural Communications

Texas Agricultural Extension Service

Texas A&M University System

Internet: e-gregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1995 to 26 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 201 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. put up, off-the-point (2)

 2. off-the-point (2)

 3. Teach English in Germany?

 4. ADS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1995 to 26 Jul 1995

 5. sherbe(r)t (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:23:15 EDT

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: put up, off-the-point



I don't remember "off-the-point", but it sounds like a vertical version of a

game we played in its horizontal variant, stoop ball: you threw the spaldeen

down hard at the edge of a stoop (of the sort all our apartment houses had);

if it was caught on the fly, it was an out, if it bounced n times (n 4) it was

an n-base hit, and if it bounced 4 or more times, it was a home run. Perhaps

the vertical version had similar conventions. Dennis B? You were there

during the same period if I'm not mistaken (the "saloogi" 50's), right?

 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 00:37:51 -0700

From:  kim mckinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: put up, off-the-point



I remember hearing about putting up coffee, but none of the other senses of

"put up." I also remember stoop ball - with scoring rules similar to

baseball. Punch ball was also scored like baseball except there was no

pitcher. The person who was "up" tossed the (ever-present) spaldeen in the

air and punched it. There was also stick ball - played in the street

mostly by boys. There were also lots of other games played with the

spaldeen - variously bouncing it or throwing it in the air or toward your

playmate across the sidewalk squares. This was Brooklyn in the 50's.



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 09:10:59 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: off-the-point



  Another term from New York City is "off-the-

  point," for a sidewalk ball game that involves throwing a spaldeen at the

  corner edge of a building. Does anyone remember that? If so, when? Where?

  How was/is it played?



An informant who was a notable fan of spaldeen-based games was familiar

with the term, but not in the sense you describe. He says that "off-

the-point" was a term used in various games to describe a throw that bounced

directly off the corner (of a building, step, etc.), thus rocketing

away unexpectedly. He says it was unquestionably a real term, but that

it was never used as the name of a game. "Off-the-wall," on the

other hand, was a real game, and involved throwing the ball at a

wall and trying to catch it on the fly, with bases being earned based

on the number of bounces, as Larry has described.



Said informant grew up in Brooklyn in the 1940s-50s.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 08:58:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: off-the-point



Joan Hall asked about a NYC game called "off-the-point." I remember in

the 1960s (when I was a teenager) playing a variation of the game

described--"throwing a spaldeen at the corner edge of a building." The

difference was that my friends and I in Ridgewood, Queens (an outer-

borough neighborhood of NYC) threw a rubber ball (pronounced

"spaldeen" but spelled "Spalding"; actually a Pensee Pinkie was better

because it bounced higher) against a point on a step of a stoop, so

the game was called "stoop ball." Stoop ball is a variation of

baseball, with teams and innings. I never heard of a game involving a

corner edge of a building."



Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:16:05 +0100

From:  "E.W. Schneider"  Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE 

Subject: Teach English in Germany?



The University of Regensburg, Germany, announces an unanticipated

vacany for a position of Lektor, to teach English for a period of up to five years. An informal job description follows. Applications

 should reach me by August 21; the job should be taken up at the

beginning of our winter term, Nov. 1. Candidates who reacted to a similar announcement earlier this year should state there continuing

 interest but need not submit full applications. Don't hesitate to

ask me if there are any further questions.

Edgar Schneider

edgar.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de









Lektors in the English Department

(Institut fuer Anglistik und Amerikanistik) of the University of

Regensburg



An Informal Job Description



I. Job Description

In their capacities as native speakers of English and citizens of the

English-speaking countries, Lektors in the English Department of the University of Regensburg teach courses in two specific areas

: practical language instruction (i.e. English as a foreign language)

and Landeskunde (i.e. introductory courses in British/American/Canadian culture, history, geography etc.).



Practical language courses are taught at various levels

(introductory, intermediate, advanced) and include:

Translation (German into English; English into German is taught by

German instructors); Composition (Essay-Writing and Discussion at all levels); English Grammar (with a comparative view of English a

nd German grammar); Vocabulary; Phonetics (mostly language lab

instruction); General Language Courses which combine many aspects of the courses mentioned above. Also, Lektors are responsible for devi

sing and administering tests in these areas.



Landeskunde courses are designed to give the students a general

outline of British/American/Canadian culture, history, geography, economics etc. There are survey courses for beginners and courses on

special topics for advanced students (e.g. ethnic problems,

educational systems, recent history, political institutions, etc.).





II. Required Qualifications

Prospective applicants for the position of Lektor must be native

speakers of English and fluent in German, and they must have lived in an English-speaking country for two years prior to employment. C

andidates must have at least a Master's degree in English,

linguistics, German, or possibly some related field; a Ph.D. or ABD status would be a plus. Also, they should have some formal training in t

eaching English as a foreign language (TESOL); for applicants from

Great Britain, the TEFL exam is required. Some teaching experience, for example as graduate assistants, preferably in German or Engl

ish as a foreign language, or, a previous stay of a few months or

more in a German-speaking country would be helpful. As this is a non-tenure position, candidates should make clear that in the long r

un they seek a professional career in their home country, for which a

temporary stay in Germany would be beneficial, however.



III. Working Conditions

Lektors are given a two-year contract which may be renewed for

another three-year period (but the employment period cannot be extended beyond those five years). The teaching load is 16 hours per week

 (4 to 8 different courses) during the semester (the winter semester

lasts from November through February, the summer semester from May through July), and probably about one course per semester break

 (fall and spring), depending on other activities. Further duties

include participation in the planning, administering, and correction of various exams, some student tutoring, some participation in t

he administrative business of the institute, and occasional service

functions as native speakers for other department members. Thus, during the months of March and April and August through October, L

ektors must be present at the university, unless they are on vacation

(roughly 5 to 6 weeks per year, depending on age and legal regulations) or special leave of absence. Job duties do not include re

search work, although the job should leave some spare time for such

activities.



The salary is calculated according to the BAT IIa scale of the German

civil service. There are fringe benefits. Salary and fringe benefits depend on age and family status. For those Lektors employed

during the whole calendar year there is a thirteenth monthly salary

(otherwise, the appropriate fractions are paid for each month of employment). Altogether, the average salary of a Lektor currently

amounts to roughly between 48,000 and 55,000 DM net per annum. The

salary is paid in monthly instalments.



Please send applications or requests for further information to:



Prof. Dr. Edgar W. Schneider, Universit,t Regensburg, Institut fuer

Anglistik und Amerikanistik, D-93040 Regensburg, phone no. [011-49-](0941) 943 3470, fax no. [011-49-](0941) 943 4992, e-mail: edga

r.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg-de.





Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de

University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany

phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470

fax  (int. line)-49-941-9434992



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 13:18:04 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1995 to 26 Jul 1995



I apologize for my History of God posting. This was supposed to go to an

Anglican communion list, and I pushed the wrong button somewhere.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 14:59:00 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



So maybe I grew up eating British sherbet! who knows... It's always so

hard to tell, for me, which of my usages is American and which British

(via Jamaica). Interesting posting, anyway!

    --peter



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 27 Jul 1995 15:29:47 -0400

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: sherbe(r)t



Sorry, last posting intended for Maggie Ronkin...

    --plp



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Jul 1995 to 27 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation? (5)

 2. put up, off-the-point (2)

 3. "...and them..." (2)

 4. Yo' Momma



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:46:25 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



 Shana Walton wrote:



  I also have been cautioned by Northeastern and West Coast friends

  (WASP-types) that it is rude, or at least can appear nosy, to inquire after

  people's mamas, as in "how's your mama and them?" People apparently don't

  all bring their families into their cognitive work world. Some told me

  it's rather elitist, not a sign of civil concern (as in we're all

  supposed to be seen as indivduals, family-free?) to ask about people's family

  backgrounds (as in "who's your mama and them"). My friends said only people

  who were concerned with your pedigree would ask this question and therefore

  that people will take it wrong, as if you're trying to "sniff them out." Is

  this true?



I'm from Los Angeles. I've never noticed any offences by questions

about parents. But then, I don't ever remember anyone asking about

them unless they already personally knew them. On the other hand,

I've seen fights break out in response to the words, "Your Momma!"



I'm not sure, but these words may have a sexual connotation.

   One person insults another.

   The second responds, "F___ You!"

   The first says, "Your Mother!"



Is this a California thing? I've lived in Utah for six years and

haven't heard it here once.



--Tom











Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 11:01:55 -0700

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: put up, off-the-point



Okay, I'll bite. This native Californian asks: what's a spaldeen?



On Thu, 27 Jul 1995, kim mckinzey wrote:



  I remember hearing about putting up coffee, but none of the other senses of

  "put up." I also remember stoop ball - with scoring rules similar to

  baseball. Punch ball was also scored like baseball except there was no

  pitcher. The person who was "up" tossed the (ever-present) spaldeen in the

  air and punched it. There was also stick ball - played in the street

  mostly by boys. There were also lots of other games played with the

  spaldeen - variously bouncing it or throwing it in the air or toward your

  playmate across the sidewalk squares. This was Brooklyn in the 50's.

 

  Rima McKinzey

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:55:25 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



  I'm from Los Angeles. I've never noticed any offences by questions

  about parents. But then, I don't ever remember anyone asking about

  them unless they already personally knew them. On the other hand,

  I've seen fights break out in response to the words, "Your Momma!"

 

  I'm not sure, but these words may have a sexual connotation.

    One person insults another.

    The second responds, "F___ You!"

    The first says, "Your Mother!"

 

  Is this a California thing? I've lived in Utah for six years and

  haven't heard it here once.

 

  --Tom



it's a world-wide thing--usu. reference to knowledge of someone's

mother implicates that the insulter has had sex with the other's

mother. two examples i can think of offhand: in beng (a west

african language) one insult is "your mother has a pendulous rectum."

in japanese, it's "your mother's belly button is an outie." just

saying "your mother" derives from such things, though most modern

users might not realize it. the japanese example, i'm told, is

widely used by kids who don't understand the implication.



less transparent (to me) is the beng insult "your mother's liver."



ed gregersen at queens college is doing a cross-cultural study of

insults. he believes that you can do an implicational hierarchy of

insult types. e.g., if a language has mother insults, it has

coprophagic insults (i made that one up, but you get the idea).



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 15:13:47 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: put up, off-the-point



Fair question. A "spaldeen" is (or was, you can't get them anymore)

a pink, hollow rubber ball (between 2 and 3 inches in diameter--not

having one handy, I can't be more precise) made by the Spalding

company, and used for a wide variety of games, including catch,

handball, stickball, the stoopball variants people have been discussing,

and the basic one-person activity of bouncing a ball on the ground.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:38:26 -0600

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S  Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



"Your mama" is definitely not just a Calif. thing. I've heard it all my

life in Phila. I don't know if it's really supposed to be sexual. It

seems to work simply as an all-around insult. Sometimes it's just a

game and is really not an insult at all.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 15:19:29 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



In Message Fri, 28 Jul 1995 14:55:25 -0400,

 "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA  writes:



 it's a world-wide thing--usu. reference to knowledge of someone's

 mother implicates that the insulter has had sex with the other's

 mother. two examples i can think of offhand: in beng (a west

 african language) one insult is "your mother has a pendulous rectum."

 in japanese, it's "your mother's belly button is an outie." just

 saying "your mother" derives from such things, though most modern

 users might not realize it. the japanese example, i'm told, is

 widely used by kids who don't understand the implication.



  I will dispute this universal. It does not work this way in the Bantu

languages that I speak. To my knowledge, the counterpart of "your mother"

(as an insult) in Kituba, Lingala, and Kiyansi suggests reference to

genitals but says nothing about about having sex with the relative, NOT AT

ALL. The insult in the phrase may stem from the fact that names of genitals

are often taboos, but I won't even speculate on this. The most direct

interpretation of the insult is that there is something bad about your

mother that the speaker would like to say but won't. But then the phrase is

often used by people who know nothing at all about one's mother. The range

of possible interpretations is quite wide. One thing I found particularly

interesting in a study of Gregersen's of the early 1980's (or maybe earlier)

is that it highlights a crosscultural bias against female relatives.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 17:04:45 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



   it's a world-wide thing--usu. reference to knowledge of someone's

...

 

   I will dispute this universal. It does not work this way in the Bantu

...

  Salikoko S. Mufwene



sorry--my intention was not to say that it was universal, but that

it's found in various parts of the globe--not just california, and

not just among geographically or culturally close groups.





lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 18:49:44 -0400

From:  Brigid Williams  Brigidia[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: "...and them..."



In Shana Walton's missive about asking about people's mamas, I was struck by

the use of the phrase "...and them..." In my native piedmont Virginia, "and

them" can be used to designate a less-than-beloved son/daughter-in-law, as in

"Phyllis and them are coming to dinner tonight. Guess I better get ready",

delivered with a frown that signifies a wish that Phyllis would leave "them"

(one person - the son-in-law) behind for once.



In my family this phrase is used only with affection.



In "how's your mama and them?" is the "and them" kindly meant?



B. C. Williams



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 21:18:16 -0400

From:  "J. Russell King"  JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: "...and them..."



A favorite entry I read in one of those humorous "Dictionary of the Texas

Language" or "How to Talk Redneck" volumes some years back was:



   momonym: n.pl. (someone's) mother and her friends. "Momonym were

planning to come over after church on Sunday."



   Certainly struck a chord of recognition.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 22:39:44 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Yo' Momma



A good introduction to "playin' the dozens" is Roger Abrahams'

_Deep Down in the Jungle_. Then if you come through Knoxville, I could

play my tape from Pine Bluff,Arkansas, whereon a white student from

U of A attempts to elicit examples of playin' the dozens in a balck bar and

gets royally sounded on.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Jul 1995 to 28 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 89 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "bagged on"

 2. ecstasy, Ecstacy (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 28 Jul 1995 23:22:54 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: "bagged on"



In the SF Chronicle last Tuesday, there was an article about a concert by

Boston, a 70's band. A 24 yr old fan was quoted, commenting about an

unfavorable review. She said, "What they bagged on was their

hair....Ripping on their hair....." I haven't heard either term before.

Comments anyone?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:00:03 EDT

From:  Orin Hargraves  100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: ecstasy, Ecstacy



A recently published British ESL dictionary defines Ecstacy as



*an illegal drug used especially by young people to give a feeling of happiness

and energy at parties*



1. Does this drug go by the same name in the US? Is there a commoner name for

it?



2. Is there a valid reason to spell it with an initial cap and penultimate c,

rather than s?



All comments appreciated.





Orin Hargraves

100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Jul 1995 09:58:41 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



orin hargraves asks:



  1. Does this drug go by the same name in the US? Is there a

commoner name for   it?



no, the commonest name for it in the u.s. is "ecstasy". lots of

nicknames, the commonest of which is probably "E".



  2. Is there a valid reason to spell it with an initial cap and penultimate c,

  rather than s?



no idea.



lynne m.



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 29 Jul 1995 13:04:11 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



 

  A recently published British ESL dictionary defines Ecstacy as

 

  *an illegal drug used especially by young people to give a feeling of happiness

  and energy at parties*

 

  1. Does this drug go by the same name in the US? Is there a commoner name for

  it?



The most common street name in the U.S. is ecstasy. The technical name

is 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine. The name MDMA is also common. It

is also known as Adam, E, and X, and probably a few others that I can't

recall offhand.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Jul 1995 to 29 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 41 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ecstasy, Ecstacy (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Jul 1995 16:50:17 -0400

From:  Nontraditional Students Assoc  nsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEGASUS.CC.UCF.EDU 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



How do I get off this list? I just want off! who's the owner of the list,

so I can get off?



Ms. Dawn Church

President, Nontraditional Student Association

nsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pegasus, church[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pegasus.cc.ucf.edu

(407) 249-9527



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 30 Jul 1995 20:48:06 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



I note (as one may see) that Ms. Dawn Church says, in her eagerness to

depart from ADS-L, 'I just want off!' I can't remember where I learned it,

but I have always thought that I knew that 'I want off' is regionally

limited - namely, South Midland. (It is native to me; and I am SM; so far,

so good.) When I cite this to my students (mostly low-front-raising Inland

Northerners) as a regionally limited form, however, they all go (or 'are

all like' if you prefer) 'So what! Everybody can say that.' I have to dip

to multiple modals, (i) ~ (e) conflation before nasals, and other

Louisville linguistic exotica to wow them. What's up with this 'I want off'

stuff?

 Dennis Preston



preton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 How do I get off this list? I just want off! who's the owner of the list,

 so I can get off?

 

 Ms. Dawn Church

 President, Nontraditional Student Association

 nsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pegasus, church[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pegasus.cc.ucf.edu

 (407) 249-9527



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Jul 1995 to 30 Jul 1995

************************************************





There are 15 messages totalling 411 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. For Your Information

 2. ecstasy, Ecstacy (4)

 3. "...and them..."

 4. monkey blood (4)

 5. at the end of the day

 6. Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?

 7. Bounced Mail

 8. Dates for Monkey Blood

 9. Bye-bye Jeff Slaton



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 03:09:55 -0600

From:  Jeff Slaton  indian[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RT66.COM 

Subject: For Your Information



Fifty years ago the ATOMIC BOMBS were dropped on JAPAN!



PLEASE DON'T STOP READING ... THIS MESSAGE WILL INTEREST YOU!



I have a colleague who just retired as the Associate Director of the Los

Alamos National Labs in New Mexico. We worked together to obtain the

release of the FAT MAN & LITTLE BOY Atomic Bomb Blueprints.



The Blueprints are reproductions of the Official 1944-45 government

documents used in the Manhattan project to build the Bombs.. The Blueprints

are 18 x 24 inches and all are suitable for display. They are highly

detailed "dimensional and component" drawings of each weapon. The documents

were declassified and recently released!



This is a MUST HAVE for anyone interested in Science, History or

Technology. Truly a unique opportunity to own an Artifact of World History.



The Blueprints cost $18.00 US. That amount includes mailing tube and 1st

class shipping. The Documents will be shipped to you within 3 days upon

receipt of payment.



(International delivery requires an additional $6.00 US for AIRMAIL.)



PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ANYONE WHO MAY BE INTERESTED OR BENEFIT.



ORDERING INFORMATION:



Please call (505) 821-1945 to reserve your set of Blueprints and then send

payment. Leave your name and address. You may deduct the long distance call

from the cost of the Blueprints.   MAXIMUM DEDUCT IS $2.00 for the phone

call.  

You may also write to the address listed below.



PERSONAL NOTE:



I am in the process of moving my office and changing internet services. It

is best if you must call the (505) 821-1945 phone number to order. However,

a colleague is accepting e-mail messages until I have my new e-mail

address. Messages can be received at physics[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indirect.com



PLEASE DON'T DELAY! These are going FAST.



Please send check or money order to:



Jeff Slaton

6808 Truchas Dr. NE

Albq., New Mexico 87109

USA



Sorry, no COD'S



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 08:51:28 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



 2. Is there a valid reason to spell it with an initial cap and penultimate c,

 rather than s?



A student told me that the name was spelled "XTC."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 09:39:31 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



I know there's a _band_ spelled XTC, but I've never seen that spelling

used for the drug. But I'm nothing like an expert here; your student may

have better information.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:15:49 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



  A student told me that the name was spelled "XTC."



xtc is the name of a band, that was around before ecstasy, the drug,

and which is not associated with the music scene in which the drug

is prevalent. i've never seen it (the drug) spelled this way in the

music press, which is where the drug is often discussed.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 10:24:56 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: ecstasy, Ecstacy



  I know there's a _band_ spelled XTC, but I've never seen that spelling

  used for the drug. But I'm nothing like an expert here; your student may

  have better information.



I have seen the spelling "XTC" for the drug, but only very rarely. It

is worth pointing out, as long as we're in this discussion, that the

band XTC was established in (I believe) 1977 or '78, long before MDMA

hit the streets. The band's name therefore is patterned on S.E.

_ecstasy,_ not on the drug name.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:35:10 -0500

From:  Tom Klingler  klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "...and them..."



Since the "...and them..." thread has been picked up again, I thought I

might mention (in case someone else didn't do it earlier) that a similar

phenomenon is found in a number of Creole languages, apparently without

negative connotation. In each case I know of, the postnominal plural

marker whose form derives from a 3pl. pronoun is placed after a proper name

to render a meaning equivalent to that of "X and them" in English, that is,

"X and his or her family" or "X and people associated with X." Ingrid

Neumann (_Le creole de Breaux Bridge, Louisiane..._, Buske, 1985) notes the

following examples from Louisiana Creole:



    Sa se pu Velma-je. "That's for Velma and her family."

    Doktoer Grajo~, sa s te doktoer a mom-je. "Doctor Graillant was

the doctor of my mother and her family."



    Neumann also cites examples from Alleyne (_Comparative

Afro-American_, Karoma, 1980) for several English-based creoles and one

from Goodman (_A comparative study of Creole French dialects_, Mouton,

1964) for Dominican Creole. Alleyne's example from Jamaica is



    Mieri dem "Mary and her friends"



Goodman's example from Dominican Creole is



    Mado yo ale beye "Mado 'and company' have gone (to) bathe."



It would be interesting to know if spoken French has anything resembling

the "...and them..." structure which might have served as a model for the

"X-je/-yo"

 constructions in the French-based creoles.



Tom



******************************************************************************

Tom Klingler

Department of French and Italian

Tulane University

New Orleans, LA 70118

(504) 862-3120 (office)

(504) 865-8020

Email: klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:39:39 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: monkey blood



Does anyone know the term "monkey blood" referring to Mercurochrome,

Merthiolate, or iodine? If so, please say when and where. Thanks.



Joan Hall, DARE

jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:43:05 -0700

From:  Mary Bucholtz  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: monkey blood



I heard it in rural NW Indiana as a kid (1970s). I didn't use it (the

term or the stuff) because my mom was paranoid about all red substances

after the Red Dye No. 5 (?) scare, so we used Bactine.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley



bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:52:50 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: at the end of the day



To those who posted comments on "at the end of the day," many thanks. I

forwarded them to Bill Moss, and he in turn turned out an article in last

week's St Petersburg Times that made use of these insights.

 He was interested enough that he says he wants to join us on ADS-L. So we

may be welcoming a Florida journalist soon.

 - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:16:46 -0500

From:  Ditra Henry  udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Your Momma -- Sexual Connotation?



On Fri, 28 Jul 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



  Shana Walton wrote:

 

    I also have been cautioned by Northeastern and West Coast friends

    (WASP-types) that it is rude, or at least can appear nosy, to inquire after

    people's mamas, as in "how's your mama and them?" People apparently don't

    all bring their families into their cognitive work world. Some told me

    it's rather elitist, not a sign of civil concern (as in we're all

    supposed to be seen as indivduals, family-free?) to ask about people's family

    backgrounds (as in "who's your mama and them"). My friends said only people

    who were concerned with your pedigree would ask this question and therefore

    that people will take it wrong, as if you're trying to "sniff them out." Is

    this true?

 

  I'm from Los Angeles. I've never noticed any offences by questions

  about parents. But then, I don't ever remember anyone asking about

  them unless they already personally knew them. On the other hand,

  I've seen fights break out in response to the words, "Your Momma!"

 

  I'm not sure, but these words may have a sexual connotation.

    One person insults another.

    The second responds, "F___ You!"

    The first says, "Your Mother!"

 

  Is this a California thing? I've lived in Utah for six years and

  haven't heard it here once.

 

  --Tom

 

 

 

 

 

  Tom Uharriet

  Springville, Utah

  utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu

 





Interesting that everyone picked apart this phrase yo mama and them and

took it out of context. So let's see if we can clear up the pieces and

fragmens and then let's look at the whole phrase.



First Yo Momma, in balck amercan English..etc, is the worst comment that

youcan make when you are seriously insulting someone. The intesity of

this comment can lead you to akncok down,drag out fight on the streets.

However, it is also a game of one up manship played among kids and some

adults that has been a part of Black amercan culture for as far back as

my parents go. Before there time I could'nt comment on. There usage and

my sisters were in rhyme form.



Yo momma don't wear no draws(panties). I saw her when she took'em off.

She threw'em on a railroad track. That train jumped fifty miles back!



Today, Yo momma so dumb..she thought a quaterback was a refund.

or Yo Momma so old she new burger King when he was a prince.



These are used in game form and each person gest a turn to insult the

others and who(m) ever acan make the group laugh the hardest is

understood to be the winner or the best.



It also seems to me that many cultures have insults that involve talking

about one's mother that don't seem to be in the mode of sexual

connotations but again as the worst inusl that you could put on someone.



Tu madre in Spanish. In Persian, I think you can say that someone's

mother is a Bitch. and In Morrocan I can spit on your mother. these all

seem to be derrogatory by nature and can probably get you into a fight.



NOw, to address the idea of yo momma n' dem.. this seems to be normal in

context for my Chicagolect of BAE.



How's yo momma n' nem? How is your mother and the rest of the family or

whoever lives in that house with her.



The answer might be  oh-- dey jus fine. And This would not be viewed

here as prying but just as a greeting and politeness about asking how

your family is getting along.





Ditra Henry

Northeastern Illinois University

5700 St. Louis AVe.

Chicago, IL 60654

312-794-2681



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:27:20 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: monkey blood



Joan asked about "monkey blood" referring to Mercurochrome, Merthiolate,

or iodine. I knew that term for Mercurochrome as a child in central and

southeast Texas. (We did not use Merthiolate or iodine in my home.)



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 17:29:12 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Mon, 31 Jul 1995 16:09:11 -0400

  From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)"  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 2684 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------------ Message in error (36 lines) --------------------------

  From: "Tim Burkhardt"  BURKHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mdh-envh.health.state.mn.us 

  Date:     Mon, 31 Jul 1995 15:10:42 CST

  Subject:    Re: monkey blood

 

  I'm wondering if you were sending this as a joke or not.

  Enironmental health sure is a fun discipline.

 

  Date:     Mon, 31 Jul 1995 13:39:39 CST

  From:     Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

  Subject:    Re: monkey blood

 

  Does anyone know the term "monkey blood" referring to Mercurochrome,

  Merthiolate, or iodine? If so, please say when and where. Thanks.

 

  Joan Hall, DARE

  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

  Tim Burkhardt

  (612) 215-0915

  MDH Site Assessment & Consultation



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 18:36:45 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Dates for Monkey Blood



Of course my childhood w/"monkey blood" was considerably earlier than

Red Dye No. 2 scares (and probably well before Bactine). My knowledge of

the term goes back to the early 1940s.



Bethany DUmas



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:49:58 -0800

From:  Michael Elkins  MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM 

Subject: monkey blood



Does anyone know the term "monkey blood" referring to Mercurochrome,

Merthiolate, or iodine? If so, please say when and where. Thanks.



-----



My mother and her parents--all from San Antonio, Texas--used it while I

was growing up in the '70s.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 31 Jul 1995 23:20:49 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Bye-bye Jeff Slaton



My standard procedure with spammers and others of their ilk is to

1. delete the message

2. inform the postmaster of the spammer's system that a user is spamming

and ask that the user be removed from the system.

Usually, the postmaster informs me within a few hours that the spammer

is gone. Jeff Slaton is now gone from  indian[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RT66.COM . If anyone

wants to see the note of apology I received from Rt66 Support Staff, just

let me know.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jul 1995 to 31 Jul 1995

************************************************



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