Date:     Thu, 1 Jul 1993 14:12:26 PDT

From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster <POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: Methods VIII



Dear Tom:



    Just a quick word about a recent goof of

mine. As you've probably noticed, a message (labeled

of "undetermined origin"!) has been floating

around on LINGUIST. As you've probably guessed, it

was intended for you. Don't know whar happened but it

was outa here well before I knew theere was a problem!



    Hope you saw it anyway.



    Cheers,



    Jimmy.



Date:     Thu, 1 Jul 1993 17:15:26 -0700

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII



Jimmy, your mail HAS been floating about labeled "of undetermined

origin," but we all got the messages. Talk to you soon. tlc

Soon as I figure out your e-mail address.

-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2



Date:     Fri, 2 Jul 1993 11:47:01 PDT

From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster <POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII

Status: R



>

> Jimmy, your mail HAS been floating about labeled "of undetermined

> origin," but we all got the messages. Talk to you soon. tlc

> Soon as I figure out your e-mail address.

> -------------------------------------------------------

> Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

> tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2

>

Tom:  It's jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sol.UVic.ca: it ought to have been part of

the header of yesterday's message. Ta-ta!

    Jimmy.



Date:     Sat, 3 Jul 1993 10:21:00 EDT

From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: J Arthurs/Methods VIII



Although it is nice to be privy to the chit-chat of J. Arthurs and T. Clark

(what the great will do the less will prattle of), their interchange raises an

interesting communications problem which, perhaps, many of you have suffered.

The University of Victoria header lines do not allow automatic message return.

That is, if your system (as nearly all do) has a command which simply allows

you to 'answer' a message, it will NOT get to Victoria. You must manually type

in the addresses there. I thought I might mention this since some of you are

doubtless still registering for METHODS (or requesting overheads, etc...)

Dennis Preston (22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)



Date:     Sat, 3 Jul 1993 17:38:32 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   Re: African American foods



On Tue, 29 Jun 1993 08:50:29 -0500 (CD, Salikoko Mufwene wrote:



>Well, Dan, I have checked here in Chicago. African Americans (with all the

>dangers of this sweeping generalization) like to buy Polish sausage, though

>this is not typically served in our local soul food restaurants. We live,

>however, in a city with a very important Polish component, contributing to a

>Chicagoan culture, if I may put it this way. African Americans from Chicago

>also participate in this Chicagoan culture. Could the overlap of cultures

>account for the phenomenon you have brought to our attention?

> Now two questions: 1) Need African American culture be homogeneous and the

>same everywhere there are African Americans?

No. However, I think of "soul food" as being the traditional cooking of

rural Southern African-Americans.

Though certainly, Polish sausage seems closer to that tradition than

chicken aspic does to traditional Icelandic cookery.



2) What is the relation between

>the variation I am suggesting here and the change I think you claimed in your

>earlier observation? The empirical observation in itself has been very

>informative, in any case.

It suggests that the culture African-Americans brought when they migrated

from the South to Chicago has been urbanized, Northernized, and

Chicagoized -- which probably isn't news to anyone.



> Could you own conclusion in this last note be interpreted as 'the Minnesota

>notion of soul food in Chicago includes Polish sausage'?

I'm not sure whose notion of soul food it is. I don't know if the bar's

night time customers are predominantly Minnesota-born or Chicago-born. The

bar's owners are white (as almost all the daytime customers seem to be).



Question -- what do African-Americans call Americans whose parents came

from Africa?



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



Date:     Mon, 5 Jul 1993 19:23:45 PDT

From: "J. Arthurs" <jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOL.UVIC.CA>

Subject:   METHODS VIII Programme



    mEthods              victoria, b.c.

     I                      1

      International Conference on Dialectology

     G                      9

              AUGUST 3-7

     H                      9

      Info: Linguistics, University of Victoria

     T                      3

      Box 3045, VICTORIA, B.C., CANADA V8W 3P4











            METHODS VIII PROGRAMME





MONDAY AUG. 2ND.



    7 - 9 p.m. P Registration & Reception: Green Room, Commons Block



TUESDAY AUGUST 3RD



    **ALL conference sessions to take place in the Senate Chambers**



    Morning session:    Chairs: TBA



        9.00  OPENING REMARKS.



        9.30  "On the need for commentary on the French 'Atlas

            linguistiques regionaux'."

                JOSEPH REISDOERFER,

                Lycee classique de Dickirch, Luxembourg



            "The 'Midland Dialect' & Linguistic Atlas Records."

                LAWRENCE M. DAVIS & CHARLES L. HOUCK,

                The Wichita State University, U.S.A.



        10.00  "Aspects of dialectal variation in Southern & Eastern

            Balto-Fennic: recent trends in modelling vowel harmony

            in Estonian & Vepsian."

                JEAN LEO LEONARD,

                Universit e de Provence, France.



            "Regional variation in Acadian French: quantitative

            analysis of the maritime lexicon."

                WLADYSLAW CICHOCKI,

                Universite du Quebec a Montreal

                Rose Mary Babitch,

                University of New Brunswick, New Brunswick

                Louise Peronnet,

                Universite de Moncton, New Brunswick



        10.30  BREAK



        11.00  "Linguistic Geography & Phonological Instability:

            Vowel length in East-Central yiddish."

                NEIL G. JACOBS,

                The Ohio State University, Ohio



            "'In', 'on' & 'of' in the dialect of Craven in West

            Yorkshire: the evidence of "A Native of Craven'

            [1828]."

                BEAT GLAUSER,

                Universitaet Heidelberg, Germany.



        11.30  "Finnish Dialectometrics."

                KALEVI WIIK,

                University of Turku, Finland.



        12.00  LUNCH BREAK



    Afternoon Session:   Chairs: TBA



    %    1.45  FEATURED PAPER:"The English Dialect Lexicon project."

                CLIVE UPTON & John Widdowson,

                University of Sheffield, U.K.



        2.30  "The new Mexico-Colorado Spanish survey: methodology

            & technology."

                NEDDY VIGIL & GARLAND BILLS,

                University of New Mexico, U.S.A.



            "The U.S. South: the Touchstone."

                DENNIS R. PRESTON,

                Michigan State University, U.S.A.



        3.00      BREAK



        3.30  "Variation dans les emprunts dialectaux arabes a  la

            langue francaise en Algerie."

                ALI BOUAMRANE,

                University of Oran, Algeria



            "The problem of defining the status of the boundary

            dialects of closely related languages (South Slavic

            area)."

                ANDREJ N. SOBOLEV,

                Institute of Linguistic Studies, St. Petersburg,

                Russia.



        4.00  "The multifarious realisations of 'r' in Algerian

            French."

                MOHAMED BENRABAH,

                University of Oran, Algeria.



            "Les doublets lexicaux en usage dans la region

            frontaliere polono-ukrainienne."

                STEFAN WARCHOL,

                Universite Marie Curie-Sklodowska,

                Poland.



        4.30  "Fading dialectal distinctions among younger

            speakers in the extreme Midwest?"

                ALVIN L. GREGG,

                The Wichita State University, U.S.A.





WEDNESDAY AUGUST 4TH



    Morning session:    Chairs: TBA



        9.00  "Polish language variation and change in an urban

            setting."

                JOHN J. STACZEK,

                Georgetown University, U.S.A.



            "Substratum, Superstratum or Adstratal Convergence?

            Crosslinguistic interference between North Russian

            Dialects & Karelian."

                ANNELI SARHIMAA,

                The Academy of Finland, Finland



        9.30  "Distinguishing between language and dialect contact:

            Hiberno-English syntax."

                MARKKU FILPPULA,

                University of Joensuu, Finland.



        10.00  "Ethnography & discourse analysis: Language, Region

            and Personal Identity in Texas."

                BARBARA JOHNSTONE,

                Texas A & M & McNeese State Universities , U.S.A

                Delma McLeod-Porter,    Judith Matson Bean,

                McNeese State University.  Texas A&M University.



        10.30  BREAK



        11.00  "Using commercial CD-ROMs for Dialect Research:

            Frenglish in Canadian newspapers."

                MARGERY FEE,

                Queen's University, Ontario



            "Sex as a factor in variation & change of popular

            speech in rural Brazilian Portuguese."

                BRIAN F.HEAD,

                State University of New York at Albany, U.S.A.



        11.30  "Americans' perceptions of linguistic correctness:

            evidence from ordinary people."

                VERONIKA HORVATH,

                Ball State University, U.S.A.



        12.00  LUNCH BREAK



    Afternoon Session:   Chair: TBA



    %    1.45  FEATURED PAPER: "Survey of standardization in

            Tsuruoka City, Japan: comparison of results from three

            survey conducted after 20-year intervals."

                MASATO YONEDA,

                National Language Research Institute, Japan



        2.30  "Educational & gender-related differences in verb

                forms: last words."

                VIRGINIA G. MCDAVID,

                Emerita, Chicago State University, U.S.A.



        3.00  BREAK



        3.30  "Social uses of untriggered English reflexives."

                JOHN J. STACZEK,

                Georgetown University, U.S.A.



        4.00  "Le russe des emigres en France: cinq generations

            d'immersion dans la francophonie."

                NATHALIA GOLUBEVA-MONATKINA,

                Moscow Institute of International Relations,

                Russia.



        4.30  "Variations in Vancouver English: Further factors

            in linguistic change?"

                GAELAN DODDS DE WOLF,

                University of Victoria





THURSDAY AUGUST 5TH



    Morning session:    Chairs: TBA



        9.00  "The advantage of a multivariate statistical

            procedure in social dialectology: a Canadian English

            example."

                JUDITH A. NYLVEK,

                University of Victoria



            "A new method of computer data analysis in

            dialectology."

                KATALIN MOLNAR,

                Berzsenyi College, Hungary.



        9.30  "LAMSAS goes SASsy II: Another generation of

            Statistical Methods for Regional Analysis."

                WILLIAM A. KRETZSCHMAR, JR.,

                University of Georgia, U.S.A.



            "EDP Usable Encoding systems for phonetic

            transcriptions in Dialectology. A survey of European

            solutions and a suggestion for standardization."

                BERNHARD KELLE,

                Universitaet Freiburg, Germany.



        10.00  "Portable & reusable software for dialect surveys."

                GUILLAUME SCHILTZ,

                Universitaet Freiburg, Germany.



            "Linguistic variation and the Shoebox programme."

                MARGUERITE MACKENZIE & SANDRA CLARKE,

                Memorial University of Newfoundland



        10.30  BREAK



        11.00  "Acoustical analysis of nasal resonance patterns for

            2 dialects of French."

                BERNARD & ANNE ROCHET,

                University of Alberta, Alberta



            "Tone Geography in Thailand: the Tone-box method."

                KALAYA TINGSABADH,

                Chulalongkorn University, Thailand



        11.30  "Le corpus linguistique de Sherbrooke."

                NORMAND BEAUCHEMIN,

                Universite de Sherbrooke, Quebec.



            "Classification of Polish dialect dictionaries."

                JERZY REICHAN,

                Instytut Jezyka Polskiego PAN, Poland



        12.00  "Field Methods & Non-standard Grammar."

                GRAHAM SHORROCKS,

                Memorial University of Newfoundland,Newfoundland



        12.30  LUNCH BREAK, followed by FREE AFTERNOON





FRIDAY AUGUST 6TH.



    Morning session:    Chair: TBA



        9.00  "The intersection of competing sound changes: methods

            of identification & analysis.

                KARIN FLIKEID,

                St. Mary's University, Nova Scotia.



        9.30  "Linguistic norms versus actual usage in a

            disintegrating language."

                JAAP VAN MARLE & CAROLINE SMITS,

                P.J. Meertens-Instituut, The Netherlands



        10.00  "Development of English English Dialects since the

            Late Seventeenth Century."

                OSSI IHALAINEN,

                University of Helsinki, Finland



        10.30  BREAK



        11.00  "Dialect variability in the historical perspective."

                ELVIRA MYACHINSKAYA,

                Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia



        11.30  "Inferring phonology from a postal questionnaire:

            yod-dropping and /u/-laxing in the Golden Horseshoe."

                JACK C. CHAMBERS,

                University of Toronto, Ontario



        12.00  LUNCH BREAK



    Afternoon Session:   Chair: TBA



        1.30  "Role & importance of interdialectal contacts study

            for historical dialectology."

                P.N. LIZANETZ,

                University of Uzhgorod, Ukraine.



        2.00  "The localization of a Wycliffite standard document

            by dialect-geographical means."

                PAUL A. JOHNSTON JR.,

                Western Michigan University, U.S.A.



        2.30  "Geographie linguistique et geologie linguistique."

                NICOLAE SARAMANDU,

                Academia Romana, Romania



        3.00  BREAK



        3.30  "Dialectal spelling evidence & Midddle English

            quantitative phonology."

                JULIA V. RYABUKHINA,

                St. Petersburg University, Russia



        4.00  "Archaisms in the Albanian dialects of Bulgaria &

            Ukraine."

                MARINA V. DOMOSILETSKAYA & Lyubov V. Sharapova,

                Russian Academy of Sciences ,Russia.





        4.30  "Relative clauses in the Francis archive of Norfolk

            speech."

                PATRICIA POUSSA,

                University of Sheffield, U.K.





SATURDAY AUGUST 7TH.



    Morning session:    Chair: TBA



        9.00  OPENING REMARKS.



        9.30  "The geography of the "mid-vowel merger" in English:

            a reappraisal."

                PAUL A. JOHNSTON JR.,

                Western Michigan University, U.S.A.



        10.00  "Lexical borrowing and syntactic change in Prince

            Edward Island French."

                RUTH KING,

                York University, Ontario.



        10.30  BREAK



        11.00  "Some grammatical innovations in Irish dialects."

                IDA V. KRIUKOVA,

                Russian Academy of Sciences, Russia.



        11.30  "Ain't, the all-purpose negative."

                NATALIE MAYNOR,

                Mississippi State University, U.S.A.



        12.00  "Syntactic variation in a bidialectal speech

            community."

                GUNNEL MELCHERS,

                Stockholms Universitet, Sweden.



        12.30  LUNCH BREAK



    Afternoon Session:   Chair: TBA



    %    1.45  FEATURED PAPER: "On DARE, from DARE."

                LUANNE VON SCHNEIDEMESSER,

                University of Wisconsin, U.S.A.



        2.30  "Reconstructing system membership from surface

            variability."

                SHANA POPLACK,

                University of Ottawa, Ontario.



        3.00  BREAK



        4.00  BUSINESS MEETING



        5.00  ADJOURNMENT



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Date:     Tue, 6 Jul 1993 06:35:07 CDT

From: Salikoko Mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject:   Re: African American foods



Let me repeat manually Dan's question, since I can't reproduce it

ellectronically in the cumbersome system I am using: "Question -- what do

African-Americans call Americans whose parents came from Africa?" The

question has never come up in my dealings with African Americans. My daughter

has an AA mother and carries an American passport and refers to herself

sometimes as African and sometimes as AA, depending on her moods. Outsiders

to the family do not deal with it and the question of nationality does not

come up. I have not had a chance to witness it in other African-AA families.

When both parents are African, children generally consider themselves

African, despite the choice they have. Again, to my knowledge other children

do not seem to care... as long as the A/AA kids behave like the AA kids. Have

you heard any particular name I should know?

 Incidentally, I would like to raise more questions on your Minneapolis case

of soul food, but I will let AAs continue this discussion, with more ethnic

sensitivity, if it interests them. I believe in the distinction between out-

and in-notion of some concepts. Even concepts seemingly as simple as 'sould

food' may wind up being quite elusive, espcially to acculturated outsiders

like myself.

 Thanks,

Sali.



Date:     Tue, 6 Jul 1993 15:47:26 -0700

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Re: coffee milk



Just read an article in the local paper. AP wire story dateline

Providence, RI. Gist of the article was that "coffee milk" is a

delicacy NOT found outside of the great and wonderful state of

RI. Consequently, the state legislature is about to make it the

'official' state drink. The concoction is made with 'coffee syrup,'

a mixture of instant coffee, corn syrup, and water.



Something rang a bell. Yep, right there in DARE, Vol I, we have

"coffee milk n [Prob transl Fr _cafe-au-lait_ coffee with milk]

 LA Coffee with hot milk" two cites from LA



Well, well, well. It appears those dolts in RI don't know that

"coffee milk" IS known outside of RI. But my question is, how in the

world did those folk in RI get the correct translation from French?

Do you suppose there is a substrata in Rhode Island language that

we have not discovered until now?



Beth?



Cheers, tlc



-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2



Date:     Tue, 6 Jul 1993 19:16:00 EDT

From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: coffee milk



I'm not so sure the RI dolts have it right. Cafe-au-lait should be 'milk

coffee,' not 'coffee milk' the latter, as any good Midwesterner will tell you,

is milk which is used to put in coffee (after the demise of cream and before

the rise [shudder] of Creamora).

 Course, you are lucky to get any of this from me -

Dennis R. (black-coffee-drinking) Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet



Date:     Wed, 7 Jul 1993 07:59:43 -0400

From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" <BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>



A friend of mine in Syracuse, Armand Desruisseaux, grew up in French-

speaking Manchester NH--even went to an all French high school--so

it's not at all unthinkable that a French substratum exists in RI,

Tom.



Date:     Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:26:19 CDT

From: Mary Howe <HOWE%UKANVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: coffee milk



Coffee milk is not coffee with hot milk, but cold milk with coffee syrup.

Like chocolate milk, only better. Although there is a substantial French

Canadian population in parts of Rhode Island, I don't think this is a

translation from cafe au lait, since it is quite a different drink.

In fact, 'regular coffee' in Rhode Island (at least 20 years ago when

I lived there) means coffee with milk and sugar, which more closely

resembles cafe au lait than coffee milk.



Mary Howe

University of Kansas



Date:     Wed, 7 Jul 1993 09:43:00 CST

From: Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject:   Re: coffee milk



When has anyone seen Dennis Preston drinking -- COFFEE?



Cheers.



Date:     Wed, 7 Jul 1993 11:28:00 CST

From: Cynthia Bernstein <BERN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DUCVAX.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject:   Re: coffee milk



I remember "coffee milk" from my childhood in New York (Long Island)

as a drink consisting of a little coffee and a lot of milk and sugar.

Cindy Bernstein, Auburn



Date:     Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:48:07 EST

From: MKONTRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU

Subject:   Allan Bell's address



Could somebody please give me Allan Bell's snailmail address?

Miklos Kontra

mkontra[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucs.indiana.edu



Date:     Thu, 15 Jul 1993 20:59:01 EST

From: "Betty S. Phillips" <EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENGFAC.INDSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Allan Bell's address



Good to see your name on the network, Miklos!

According to the LSA directory, Alan Bell is at

Department of Linguistics

University of Colorado

Boulder, CO 80302



Betty Phillips, ISU



Date:     Thu, 15 Jul 1993 21:05:28 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   Dictionaries of American Regional _____



Do the following exist, under whatever name?

Dictionary of American Regional Spanish

Dictionary of American Regional French

Dictionary of American Regional German

Dictionary of American Regional Dutch

Dictionary of American Regional Yiddish

Dictionary of Mexican Regional English



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



Date:     Mon, 19 Jul 1993 07:15:02 -0700

From: Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject:   Generic Product Names



I am looking for references on the shift of a product name (e.g., kleenex,

xerox, coke) to a generic. When, for example, would a lexicographer

declare a product name a generic? Is there an appropriate percentage of

use? The only recent discussion I can find is the Shuy-Dumas discussion

in Am. Speech. My apologies to those who will also receive this as a post

from Linguist. Thanks.

Gail Stygall, English, U. of Washington

stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



Date:     Mon, 19 Jul 1993 14:11:52 CDT

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: Generic Product Names



At the last several DSNA meetings, the Federal Trademark Association has

sponsored a reception and has sent a representative to thank the Dictionary

Society and dictionary publishers for their cooperation in making the

scholarly community aware of the legal side of trademarks and tradenames.

No matter how frequently 'xerox' or 'coke' is used by native speakers, if

one uses these in print under certain conditions, large chunks of

litigigiousness crush his/er head and the long arm of the law extracts not

a few bucks from the offender's pocket.

I remember reading two or three years ago about an honest, hard-working

immigrant who put up a hand-written sign in his little sandwich shop saying

"cokes 75 cents" (or whatever price).    Pepsico police found out that

when his clients ordered these "cokes" they received some form of Pepsi.

Pepsico filed a suit for the megabuck-loss and personal humilation caused by

the misrepresentation on that illegal sign. The guy went out of business

and, I suppose, enrolled in an ESL / American Culture class at SF State.

And I understand that G&C Merriam got megabucks from Random House for the

unscrupulous way they copied the typography of Merriam's use of "Webster's"

on the spines of dust jackets. I'm sure Random House will make back all

the money they paid out, because at our University Bookstore students buy

the RH Webster's because the big red dust jacket draws their eyes to the

magic word in dictionarydom. Store personnel display the bogus Webster's

more prominently than the Merriam dictionaries.

Perhaps some publishing lexicographer on ADS-L will give a direct response

to Gail Stygall's question.           DMLance





Date:     Mon, 19 Jul 1993 16:32:55 EDT

From: Alphonse Vinh <VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   lists



I inadvertently f-9nd the message concerning all the language list servs

currently operating. Could the person who posted that list of language lists

send me another posting.



    Gratefully yours,



         --Alphonse Vinh

          Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.bitnet





Date:     Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:49:12 -0400

From: Mike Agnes <by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU>

Subject:   Generic Product Names



 In partial response to Professor Stygall's initial

query and Professor Lance's slyly challenging reply,

I'll put in my two cents' worth on trademarks,

replete with problems and questions and devoid of

solutions.

  I'm not certain that many linguists appreciate

the difficulties of treating trademarks in a

published dictionary. Any morning's mail may bring

some lawyer's angry letter (hypallage?) in "defense"

of Veg-O-Matic, S.O.S. soap pads, Sheetrock, Crescent

wrench ("Who'd a thunk it," as Pokey would say), or

what have you, threatening litigation if the

dictionary isn't instantly reprinted with the

product identified as trademarked and entered in some

bizarre orthography with a definition that has nothing

to do with contemporary language practice. It is VERY

tempting to take some legally safe but

lexicographically unsound editorial approach in

treating these words.

  Some lexemes, of course, divide use among (at least

suspected) trademark sense and generic sense. Americans,

and increasingly other English-speakers (and many

authors) seem quite brand-conscious;

in examining citations it takes no little judgment

to decide when an author means "Jeep" and not "jeep,"

regardless of capitalization. The problem is compounded

by the scrupulosity of copy editors, who are routinely

equipped with a list of unsuspected trademarks. These

orthographic zealots are likely to change a novelist's

"realtor" to "Realtor" or "tabasco" to "Tabasco," thus

presenting the citation-collector with a somewhat

skewed representation of true (i.e., intended) usage.

  There is a fairly seamless spectrum from "loafer"

and "windbreaker" and "spansule" to "jeep" and "kleenex"

and "pyrex" to "cuisinart" and "fudgsicle" to "Gore-Tex"

(tm's all). These can be dealt with rather adroitly in a

way that is editorially honest and at the same time

unlikely to incur the wrath of the tm holder (but you

had better have citations in hand when the process

server shows up).

  The lexicographer is in a special bind when a tm

lexeme jumps its semantic boundaries in such a way that

the trademarked sense is not worthy of entry but the

extended sense is. An example is "bakeoff." Do you

really want to give a definition of a proper name "an

annual competition sponsored by Pillsbury . . . ."? I

would prefer to relegate such information to an

etymology; I would no more enter the tm sense

than, say, the "South Sligo Annual Amplexus Marathon."

But the tm owner will probably NOT understand this and

will continue insisting that a tm definition be entered.

(Is it any wonder that we're currently inundated with

anti-lawyer jokes?)

  One unexpected problem is a tm that is registered as

a singular or plural noun, which form is at odds with

conventional usage. "Caplets" is the registered TM; how

should one frame the headword for a dictionary entry?

If you want to enter "visegrips" (virtually a pluralia

tantum in normal usage), what do you do when you find

out the Kansas manufacturer of the real McCoy, so beloved

of shade-tree mechanics, has trademarked the character

sequence "Vise-grip"?

  What do you do when a TM is not actively defended in

the U.S. but IS defended in overseas markets (as with

"Caplet")? What do you do when you think a trademark may

be held overseas but not in the U.S.? (E.g., Chambers

claims "cat's-eye" and "Baby Buggy" are tm's.)

  Have any dictionaries ever caved in to legal threats?

I'll bet a few have, but we will probably never know for

certain. (Try plying "a publishing lexicographer" with a

double Bushmills at the next DSNA conference; his tongue

might loosen!)

  It is my belief that the citational evidence one might

present in defense of this or that editorial treatment

would never bear the scrutiny of sound statistical

analysis. The sample would surely be too small and not

scientifically valid. And I don't care HOW many million

citations you claim to carry!



 Best to all, and I never wrote this: someone has pirated

my Freenet ID!



--

Mike Agnes INTERNET: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu

       BITNET: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm

         FAX: 216 579 9970



Date:     Thu, 22 Jul 1993 10:27:15 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   TM



I read a ms. a while back that detailed the reaction of the TM assoc.

to W3's policy of not capitalizing any words, trademarks included.

According to this story, Merriam succumbed to threatened legal action

and reset its sheets to capitalize TMs.



Times change, though, and I note that Webster's 10th now includes

xerox (verb, lower cased) along with Xerox.



So here's my question. I have asked a couple of times in print about

what I perceive to be the failure of dictionaries to include an entry

for Webster's, defining it as something like `a dictionary, an English

dictionary.' At least in the US, Webster's is often a generic term,

used in free variation with such terms as "the dictionary" (as if there

were only one!). But no dictionary records this use. During the

recent discussions of Random House's adoption of the name Webster

for its desk dictionary, and the renaming of W10 as Merriam Webster's

Collegiate Dictionary, publicists routinely mentioned that "Webster's"

in a dictionary title meant money in the bank, because the public

associated it so strongly with authority.



In a recent note in _English Today_ Tom Paikeday gives some cites

to support this. Unfortunately, he uses me as an authority, whereas

I was just making a wild assertion hoping someone would either back me

up or say I was wrong and why (in case you didn't notice, that is how

I do things).



Any comments on Webster's, o lexicographic ones?



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)

Date:     Sun, 25 Jul 1993 16:17:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   Dan Mosser



Would someone please give me Dan Mosser's email address?



thanks,

beth simon

blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu



Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 1993 17:19:00 -0300

From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" <TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>

Subject:   Allen Metcalf's e-mail address



Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to

the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?

Alternatively, can someone tell me how I can tell a

non-member of the ADS how to purchase PADS 77, the

Index to DARE I and II, that came free to current

members?

Thanks.

Terry Pratt, University of PEI, Canada C1A 4P3

"TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA"



Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:23:50 -0500

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Allen Metcalf's e-mail address



> Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to

> the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?



He told me a couple of months ago that McMurray State still isn't

online but will be soon (he hopes).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 1993 15:30:50 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Allen Metcalf's e-mail address



In Message Mon, 26 Jul 1993 17:19:00 -0300,

 "Terry Pratt, UPEI" <TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca> writes:



>Does Allen Metcalf, genial Executive Secretary to

>the ADS, have an e-mail address and could I have it?

>Alternatively, can someone tell me how I can tell a

>non-member of the ADS how to purchase PADS 77, the

>Index to DARE I and II, that came free to current

>members?

>Thanks.

>Terry Pratt, University of PEI, Canada C1A 4P3

>"TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA"



No he doesn't have email yet. MacMurray is not on the Internet. But

anyone can buy PADS directly from U Ala. Press. All issues of PADS

published by them are kept permanently in print, according to our

agreement with the press, and should be available.



By the way, I hope this gets through. I sent something last week about

trademark that never showed up.



Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



Date:     Mon, 26 Jul 1993 16:46:25 EDT

From: Alphonse Vinh <VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   new dictionary



To all my colleagues interested in the beautiful and interesting language of th

e American South, I'd like to mention a newly published title:



        Robert Hendrickson. _Whistlin' Dixie: a dictionary of Southern E

xpressions_ New York: Facts on File, 1993.



     --Alphonse Vinh Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalevm



Date:     Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:21:38 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   horrible examples



I'm looking for Horrible Examples of "English" dialog perpetrated by

American authors. That is -- dialog which the American author thought was

the way an Englishman would speak.



I'll also take the equivalent about or by Australians, New Zealanders,

Irish, South Africans, etc.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



Date:     Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:34:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   examples of dialog



did you want specifically English men?



beth simon

blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu



Date:     Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:42:18 EDT

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: horrible examples



And one sees often enough the British novelist trying to make his American

characters sound right---look for that too, all those Boston maidens who

are made to "reckon" this or that in English novels.



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 07:56:09 RSA

From: "m. lynne murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject:   british/american dialogue



on a related note to the query about bad portrayals of english dialects,

since moving to south africa (27 days ago), i've noticed that americans

who are quoted in the newspaper are "translated" from american english

to south african or british english (sometimes the reports are from

s.a. papers, sometimes from british news services).



for example, i read an interview with macaulay culkin in the entertainment

section (hey, i was bored). i started to get suspicious that these weren't

an american child's words when he talked of "tidying (up?)" his room,

rather than "picking it up" or "cleaning" it. my suspicions were confirmed

when he started refering to his "mum" rather than his "mom".



considering that the most popular movies and tv here are american, it

surprised me that this "translation" took place--i'm sure most news-paper

reading south africans would have understood the americanisms. of course,

it's always possible that no interview took place.



lynne murphy

university of the witwatersrand



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:40:20 -0400

From: "J. Chambers" <chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject:   Re: horrible examples



There are some glorious examples of unidiomatic quotations in a

biography of Jack Teagarden, the great Texas trombonist and singer.

The biog is written by two Englishmen, trad freaks, and whenever

Teagarden opens his mouth he says things like "That will not suffice,

actually" or "We failed to reach Denver on time". (Those aren't actual

examples. I don't have the book here in my office, oddly enough, but

if you want the ref I can send it later.) --Jack Chambers

                chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epas.utoronto.ca



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 11:26:02 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: british/american dialogue



As someone who has talked to journalists from time to time and then

seen the results, I can assure Lynne that even when a real interview

takes place the resulting story is more like the forthcoming Kennedy

biography or the notorious New Yorker piece on the shrink. But hey,

I mean what's real, anyway?



--

Dennis

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 10:09:09 PDT

From: Bonnie McElhinny <mcelhinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>

Subject:   language and gender syllabi



The Committee on the Status of Women in Linguistics (COSWL) is pleased to

announce the publication of a collection of language and gender syllabi, edited

by Elizabeth Hume (Dept. of Linguistics, Ohio State Univ) and Bonnie McElhinny

(Dept. of Linguistics, Stanford Univ.) The collection includes 27 syllabi for

courses on language and gender taught in an array of departments (linguistics,

anthropology, folklore, English, education, French, German). The collection

is a partial response to the Linguistic Society of America's mandate to COSWL

to "encourage research on women and language."



Special features of the collection include:



    *syllabi for undergraduate and graduate courses

    *ideas for paper topics

    *examples of exam questions

    *instructions for fieldwork exercises in gathering/analyzing

        gender differences in language use

    *bibliographies of work on language and gender

    *comments from instructors about particularly successful

        techniques for teaching implemented in the course



Contributors include: Niko BESNIER (Anthro, Yale), Janet BING (English,

Old Dominion Univ), Sue BLACKWELL (English, Univ. of Birmingham, UK),

Rebecca BURNS HOFFMAN (English, Univ. of Miami) , Penny ECKERT (IRL),

Suzanne FLEISCHMANN (French, Univ. of California, Berkeley),

Alice FREED (Linguistics, Montclair State College), Rebecca FREEMAN (School

of Education, Univ. of Pennsylvania), Barbara FOX (Linguistics, Univ. of

Colorado), Randy HARRIS (English, Univ. of Waterloo), Shirley HEATH (English/

Linguistics, Stanford), Elizabeth HUME (Linguistics, Ohio State Univ.),

Mary Jane HURST (English, Texas Tech), Deborah KAPCHAN (Folklore Institute,

Indiana Univ-Bloomington), Mimi KLAIMAN (Linguistics, Univ. of Indiana),

Kerstin LANGE (Anthropology), Joseph MALONE (Columbia), Sally

MCCONNELL-GINET (Linguistics/Women's Studies, Cornell Univ.), Bonnie MCELHINNY

(Linguistics, SStanford) Rae MOSES (Linguistics, Northwestern) Mary PARLEE

(Hunter College), Craige ROBERTS (Linguistics, Ohio State Univ.), Bambi

SCHIEFFELIN (Anthro, NYU), Ron SOUTHERLAND (Linguistics, Univ. of Calgary),

Deborah TANNEN (Linguistics, Georgetown Univ.), Lenora TIMM (Linguistics,

Univ. of CA--Davis), Ruth WODAK (Univ. of Vienna), Ana Celia ZENTELLA

(Linguistics, Hunter College).



The syllabi are available (1) in hardcopy format from the LSA, (2) in the

archives of LINGUIST and (3) through anonymous ftp from the linguistics archive

housed at the Univ. of Michigan file-server. Instructions follow for obtaining

copies from each of these sources.



(1) To purchase hard-copy versions, please send a check made out to "Linguistic

Society of America" for $20.00 (includes postage and handling--DC residents add

6% sales tax) to:



    COSWL Language and Gender Syllabus Project

    Linguistic Society of America

    1325 18th Street, NW Suite 211

    Washington DC 20036



(2) On the LINGUIST database, the syllabi are kept in 7 files called:

        lg-gen-0 syl

        lg-gen-1 syl

            and so forth, through lg-gen-6 syl



To retrieve the syllabi, send a message to:

    listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamvm1.tamu.edu (if you are on Internet)

    OR

    LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1 (if you are on BITNET)



The message should consist of a line or lines like the following:

    get <filename> <filetype> linguist



For example,

    get lg-gen-1 syl linguist



*Please note: It is possible to request all the syllabi at once by

sending one multi-line message consisting of 7 'get' commands; however the

files are large, so don't do this unless you can handle large email messages.



**The listserv will respond only to addresses it recognizes, so be sure

to send the request from the address from which you subscribed to LINGUIST.





(3) To obtain copies through ftp from the Univ. of Michigan file-server you

must be on Internet. Follow the following procedure:



ftp linguistics.archive.umich.edu (at your system prompt)

login: anonymous

passwd: <type your email address>

cd linguistics

cd handouts

cd syllabi

get L-G.Syllabi.0

get L-G.Syllabi.1

get L-G.Syllabi.2

get L-G.Syllabi.3

get L-G.Syllabi.4

get L-G.Syllabi.5

get L-G.Syllabi.6

quit



*Please note: These syllabi are lodged on a Unix system. Unix is case-

sensitive. If you use capital letters instead of small letters, or small

letters instead of capital letters, it will not recognize your command. Follow

the above format carefully.



**You may not want to obtain all these files at the same time. They take

up a considerable amount of diskspace.



***Questions should be directed to 'linguistics-archivists[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umich.edu'



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 14:24:30 -0500

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   ADS-L



> how do I subscribe to the American Dialect Society?



Send this command to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU:



sub ADS-L Connie Irvine



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 14:27:09 -0500

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Oops



I think my brain got fried in my recent wanderings through Asia.

I didn't even notice that the note from Connie Irvine was on the

list. I thought I was replying just to her. I guess there have

been worse e-oopses, though. I'm mentioning this on the list in

case some of you were wondering how I thought she was going to get

my message about how to subscribe when she hasn't yet subscribed.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 17:41:26 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   Re: examples of dialog



On Tue, 27 Jul 1993 20:34:00 -0500 (CD, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



>did you want specifically English men?

>

Sorry -- "English" dialog attributed to women also.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 18:49:51 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   translation in newspapers



On Wed, 28 Jul 1993 07:56:09 RSA, m. lynne murphy wrote:



>on a related note to the query about bad portrayals of english dialects,

>since moving to south africa (27 days ago), i've noticed that americans

>who are quoted in the newspaper are "translated" from american english

>to south african or british english (sometimes the reports are from

>s.a. papers, sometimes from british news services).

>

Similar translation takes place when Americans are interviewed by American

newspapers. Professional and hobby-subculture terms are routinely

changed. As I understand it, if the reporter doesn't make such changes,

the editors will.



The differences between what Southerners (or even Philadelphians) are

quoted in the New York Times as saying, and what someone from that

background is likely to have said, would probably fill a thick book.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 16:58:34 -0700

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Re: horrible examples



Your message dated: Tue, 27 Jul 1993 22:42:18 EDT

--------

> And one sees often enough the British novelist trying to make his American

> characters sound right---look for that too, all those Boston maidens who

> are made to "reckon" this or that in English novels.



I just read a slew of novels by Colin Dexter (creator of Inspector Morse,

the intrepid dyspeptic of PBS lately). Author lives in Oxford, settings

in Oxford (he went to Cambridge). His _The Jewel that was Ours_ features

a busload of American tourists, mainly Californians. What a hoot! Their

"American English" reads like a combination of Louisiana/Minnesota Pickle

Ranchers. I recommend it highly for the funny (unintentionally, of course)

dialogue. By the way, the mysteries are pretty good too. About six twists

in the final two pages of every novel.

Cheers,

tlc

-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:17:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   translations and dialog



For Americans who write English dialog, and for the murder mystery

addicts (no one here, of course), I like Martha Grimes and Elizabeth George.



beth simon



Date:     Wed, 28 Jul 1993 19:24:57 -0500

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: American Dialect Society



> And how does one subscribe to the American Dialect Society, rather than to

> ADS-L?



That information is in the welcome message one receives when subscribing

to ADS-L. :-)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*

:ADD1 Your subscription to list 'listname'

Dear networker,



 As of 'LSVFDATE()', you have been added to the LISTSERV distribution

list 'listname' ('title') by 'LSVU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]N(invoker)'.



.im $SIGNUP

ADS-L is a forum for exchange of ideas and information by members of

the American Dialect Society. To join the American Dialect Society,

write Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary, English Department, MacMurray

College, Jacksonville, IL 62650-2590. If you have questions about this

list, send e-mail to Natalie Maynor (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu).



Virtually,



  The LISTSERV management

:END

*-----------------------------------------------------------------------*



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:26:00 GMT

From: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject:   Re: ADS-L



How can anybody be on the list - the ADS list - and *NOT* be a

member of the society?



John KIRK



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 06:38:13 -0500

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: ADS-L



> How can anybody be on the list - the ADS list - and *NOT* be a

> member of the society?



Subscription to ADS-L is open. When Bill Kretzschmar and I first

talked about the possibility of starting this list, we discussed

the various ways it could be set up, one of them being private --

i.e., subscription through e-mail to the listowner rather than

through the usual LISTSERV command. We decided that things would

be simpler if we made it an open, unmoderated list but without

announcing its existence except to members of ADS.



Although ADS-L has never been announced in the usual places like

NEW-LIST or the lists of lists, I've noticed that it has shown up

in various other documents floating through the nets. So far,

however, I don't think there's been a problem. The potential problem

we had worried about was that lots of people without professional

interest in or knowledge of the topic would flock to the list and

turn it into something like WORDS-L, a list that is very important

in my life but that is not in any way professional. For whatever

reasons, ADS-L so far hasn't seemed to suffer from its status as an

open list. Just as anybody who wants to can wander into a library

and read -American Speech-, so can anybody who wants to lurk on ADS-L

-- or even participate in the discussion. And, of course, anybody who

wants to can join ADS. I know of at least one case of somebody in

another field who lurked on this list for a while and then joined ADS

to get the publications.



After sending my smiling reply last night, I started wondering if the

person who asked how to join ADS might really have meant what she said

-- i.e., might really have been asking how to join ADS, not ADS-L. It

occurred to me that it might have been my tired brain (tired from

playing catchup after a long trip) that made me interpret the question

as being about the list rather than the society. Because I get many

e-mail messages almost every day asking me about one or more of the

lists I'm in charge of (the other two being far busier than ADS-L),

I saw that question as another list question. I still think that's

what it was, though. Among other reasons for my assumption is that

the person who asked the question wasn't an ADS-L subscriber and thus

wouldn't have seen an answer on the list. If she had been asking about

how to join ADS itself, she would probably have asked for the answer

to be sent directly to her instead of posted on the list. People asking

about subscribing to an e-mail list, however, often send such a message

to the list itself, knowing that the listowner will either add them or

send them info on how to join.



Why am I always verbose in the early morning???

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 08:55:00 EDT

From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: ADS-L



Why are we all being so coy? Let's assume that someone wants to know how to

join the ADS. Easy: Send $25.00 to Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary, ADS,

English Department, MacMurray College, Jacksonville, IL 62650 and become one

of the few, the proud, the brave.

Dennis Preston (22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet)



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:15:01 EST

From: Boyd Davis <FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>

Subject:   murder mystery dialogue



What 'period' for terrible representation of dialogue are you looking for?



For '30s,*SS VanDine, very early Agatha Christie and John Buchan all

have replications that might interest you. Also, collections of regional

ghost stories that were 'rewritten' in the 50s-70s. Other interesting

sources are the columns to the reader - and the letters to the editor -

in the late volumes of St. Nicholas for turn-of-the-century.

     *and earlier



The problem, of course, is distinguishing representation of speech from

being a writer who simply has 'stiff' dialogue, and I yield to others

more knowledgeable here. I wonder if the late Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe

series might be useful, or early Mary Roberts Rinehart?

Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 19:03:46 EDT

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: murder mystery dialogue



A great source of both kinds is the classic series of very good mystery novels

written by John Dickson Carr (aka Carter Dickson), an American expatriate in

London, whose transAtlantic dialects and registers often blur---almost all of

his settings are British.



(And then there's expatriate Chester Himes, who lived so long in Paris that

one of his Harlem detectives writes with a stylo.... but that's another

story. And Ezra Pound's memories of English lower-class speech, after forty

years in Italy and the madhouse. And and and, all the arcana of speech-as-

representation.



Of which one of the oddest I know is old [A]bra[ha]m Stoker from South Africa,

who mastered his native English as if it were a foreign tongue. I invite a

psycholinguist to the feast spread for him in The Lair of the White Worm...



rk



Date:     Thu, 29 Jul 1993 18:03:30 -0600

From: Dan Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject:   horrible dialogue



On Thu, 29 Jul 1993 11:15:01 -0500 (ES, Boyd Davis wrote:



>What 'period' for terrible representation of dialogue are you looking for?



What I'm looking for is: Dialogue, allegedly spoken by Englishmen/women,

written by American authors who got it horribly wrong. From any genre.

Any period.



I prefer to get actual quotes, rather than being pointed toward relevant

books, because I don't trust my ability to tell what's hilariously wrong.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu



.