Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1993 08:43:00 EST
From: Priscilla Kanet PKANET%CLEMSON.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: "That's it -- Fort Pitt!"
My husband (age mid 40's) also uses this statement, but with a little
derogatory add on. He was raised in central Pennsylvania and did grad
work at Penn State. I always assumed it was the Penn State put down on
Pitt (Univ of Pttg), the arch rival. I think you are correct that it was
a beer add with this beer being the end-all. Indiana is certainly close
enough to have a rivalry with Pitt or at least advertizing from Pttg. I
can investigate further if you like. Priscilla Kanet
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 12:10:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical query
Is anyone familiar with "qualm" as a verb, as in "it doesn't qualm me
a bit" (it doesn't bother, or worry, me a bit)?
thanks,
seth
beth
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 20:48:30 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: hissy fits
------------------------------
From: WATERS%STETSON.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.NoDak.EDU
Mon, 1 Mar 1993 12:02:00 EST
To: Multiple recipients of list LORE LORE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.NoDak.EDU
Subject: Re: Hissy fits
I also have heard about hissy fits all my life, and don't
know for sure where that comes from, although the cat
analogy makes sense. A question though: is there any basic
difference between a hissy fit and a conniption fit?
(Actual Inin SC, I think it was usually just called a
hissy - the "fit" part was pretty much implied...
As for traffic on this list - I just subscribed to it
last week (heard it was the great center of FOAF-tales
on the Internet), and the message regarding hissies was the
only one I've received so far. So, if anyone wants to talk
I'm here (and verbose on occasion!)
Sally G. Waters (waters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stetson) / "There ain't no Coup De Ville
Queen of Reference / Hiding at the bottom
Stetson College of Law Library / Of a Cracker Jack box..."
1401 61st St. S. /
St. Petersburg, FL 33707 / -- Meat Loaf
----- forwarded message ends here -----
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1993 21:54:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: hissy fits
there's an entry for hissy fits in the dictionary of american regional
english. (that's with caps, of course.)
beth simon
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 01:51:40 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: hissy fits
Oh, yes, hissy fits are different from conniption fits. My mother knew well.
She grew up in southwest Arkansas (b. 1904). One PITCHES a hissy fit, but
one HAS a conniption fit or has conniptions. Hissies are what one does
toward others, and conniptions occur to a person as a result of some external
trigger. Both entail anger, but there's a transitivity difference, in both
the fit and the anger.
The hiss doesn't have to have originated as a 'cat' reference, as I under-
stood my mother's use of the term. People hiss too, as do snakes. We hiss
at others when we are angry with them.
The conniption is triggered by an external stimulus, but the fit itself
suggests reactions by motor reflexes rather than the volitional hisses of the
hissy fit.
Syntactic deletion is different for the two. One can have a fit (conniption)
but it's less likely for one to pitch a fit (hissy). My father (b. sw AR 1895)
would throw or pitch a fit, but it wasn't a hissy fit; it was an angry fit,
perhaps with intemperate verbal display that was raucous rather than hissy.
DMLance
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 10:12:53 -0800
From: David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU
Subject: Re: hissy fits
On Wed, 3 Mar 1993 01:51, "Donald M. Lance" writes:
The hiss doesn't have to have originated as a 'cat' reference, as I under-
stood my mother's use of the term. People hiss too, as do snakes. We hiss
at others when we are angry with them.
The conniption is triggered by an external stimulus, but the fit itself
suggests reactions by motor reflexes rather than the volitional hisses of
the hissy fit.
Syntactic deletion is different for the two. One can have a fit
(conniption) but it's less likely for one to pitch a fit (hissy). My father
(b. sw AR 1895) would throw or pitch a fit, but it wasn't a hissy fit; it
was an angry fit, perhaps with intemperate verbal display that was raucous
rather than hissy.
Everyone so far seems to agree 'hissy' 'to make a hissing sound'.
When I was a (perhaps somewhat overly bookish) child, I assumed
'hissy' 'hysterical'. (I can't verify this with any authoritative
sources as I'm banging this off on company time :-), and so do not
have access to my books.)
I also understood hissy fits to be more commonly applied to women.
(This is certainly in line with the historical interpretation of
hysteria.) Note, above, that Donald Lance's father's fits were
more "masculine". However, this aspect might support the 'hissing
sound' hypothesis, too, since cats are traditionally viewed as
female (and females often viewed as cats).
Anyone have anything definite to cite, to advance one interp. or
the other?
--------
David Harnick-Shapiro Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu
Information and Computer Science UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david
University of California, Irvine BITNet: DBSHAPIR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCI
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 19:10:57 -0500
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
I concur w/David Harnick-Shapiro's judgment that hissy fit = hysteria;
here in southern Ohio the term is used the same as my Brooklyn-born Conn
Yankee mother's conniption fit.
On another topic: the use of liberal I described a while back. A part
time instructor asked his class to annotate the newspaper article in
which a fraternity president complained that rushing was down because
kids were more liberal 4 yrs ago. The general consensus was that
liberal meant more willing to drink, party = the euphemism of choice
around here. So kids drank more readily four years ago and therefore
were more willing to joibn fraternities, the purpose of which is . . .
you get it!
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL AT OUACCVMB.Bitnet-or-BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
**********************************************************************
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 19:53:39 EST
From: Michael Montgomery N270053%UNIVSCVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Author search
The address of Clyde Smith, Jr. is as follows:
Clyde Smith, Jr.
Caixa Postal 1621
Natal - RN - Brazil
59072-970
The "Southern English in Brazil, no?" paper was published as follows:
Bailey, Guy, and Clyde Smith. 1989. Southern English
in Brazil, no? SECOL Review 16.71-89.
A related essay on the English of the descendants of the Confederates
who migrated to Brazil is
Montgomery, Michael, and Cecil Ataide Melo. 1990. The
phonology of the lost cause: the English of the Confe-
derados in Brazil. English World-Wide 11.195-216.
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 23:28:02 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: hissy fits
David Harnick-Shapiro makes a valid obsevation, I think. Both males and
females in my parents' families could throw (or pitch) hissy fits, but they
would have a sissy quality when thrown by males. Conniption fits, as I recall,
weren't sex-marked. The male hissy fit isn't necessarily effeminate, but it
makes the male seem "emotional" the way a female would react. I wish I had
a citation for the record, but my memory will have to do for now.
DMLance
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1993 23:49:50 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Peckerwood
Last summer someone was speculating about why people these days might turn
'woodpecker' around. I've just come across a citation from 1893. Yes,
exactly a century ago. In OLD RABBIT THE VOODOO, AND OTHER SORCERERS (London,
1983) -- rpt. New York: Negro University Press, 1969 -- Mary Alicia Owen
(1950-1935, of St. Joseph MO) tells an intersting story. A "peart an' biggety
-feelin' lil boy" was out hunting and "he up wid er rock and bust de laig ob er
lil peckerwood dat he see a knockin' at de do' ob Misteh Wuhm's house." The
wounded bird made its way home, "hipplety, hopplety," and he "fine he pa an'
say 'Looky hyeah at my laig!'" His pa, called "Old Woodpeckeh" in the story,
"fix that laig up good ez new." The story is told as a dialogue between a
child and "Granny." "How he do it, Granny?" -- "He done hit de way dat suit
'im, dat all I knows. I wuzzen' dar at de time. Howsomedevvah he done hit hit
wuz er mighty good job." -- "I didn't know birds were doctors." -- "Dey's two
free tings yo' ain't larn yit," said Granny, with a fine irony that was
altogether wasted on her auditor, "an' one un um is de pinbt Ise aimin' at. De
peckersoods ain't no shoh 'nuff buhds, dey's cunjerers dat kin de buhds ur dey
kin be men, an' de boss un um all, Ole Woodpeckeh, he kin look lak de finest
kine ob er Injun-chief, ceppin dat he don't hafter paint red, he des grow
dataways."
This particular item, I suspect,goes deep into Black and Southern culture.
It would be a good item for a research paper. I came across this reference in
"Mary Alicia Owen, Collector of Afro-American and Indian Lore in Missouri" in
the Missouri Folklore Society Journal 2 (1980) 1-14. The author, W. K. McNeil,
points out that Mary Alicia, as she is known to Missouri folklorists,did not
become well known in this country because she delivered most of her scholarly
papers at the Folk-LoreSociety in London and published her books in England.
She did not have formal university training but collected a fair amount of
material from Negroes and from Sac Indians in the St. Joseph area in the
1880s to 1910 or so. OK. I told you more than you wanted to know, especially
from reading small print on screen as you're trying to do your e-mail in
ten minutes. Sorry. But enjoy! DMLance, U of MO
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 09:11:52 -0500
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
With apologies to Don Lance: my wife, a Dayton OH native and a
psychotherapist who talks with local people a lot more than I, confirms
Don Lance's use of the terms "hissy fit" and "conniption." [She can't
recall "conniption fit" as a phrase.]
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL AT OUACCVMB.Bitnet-or-BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
**********************************************************************
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 12:33:06 CST
From: Gerald Walton VCGW%UMSVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Peckerwood
On Wed, 3 Mar 1993 23:49:50 CST Donald M. Lance said:
Last summer someone was speculating about why people these days might turn
'woodpecker' around. I've just come across a citation from 1893. Yes,
exactly a century ago. In OLD RABBIT THE VOODOO, AND OTHER SORCERERS (London,
1983) -- rpt. New York: Negro University Press, 1969 -- Mary Alicia Owen
(1950-1935, of St. Joseph MO) tells an intersting story. A "peart an' biggety
Thanks for sharing. I did enjoy it. As someone pointed out
earlier, I guess this is a kind of phonetic metastasis. I can remember
hearing a paper in which the speaker referred to "peckerwoods," "A Model
Fords," and
61 Highway," but I can't come up with the who and where. GWW
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 15:01:37 EST
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Peckerwood
Woodpecker was one of the questions in my study of lexical variation in GA,
SC, and NC. I compared responses from 1990 to those collected for LAMSAS in
the 1930s. In the earlier sample, 10 of 39 speakers used peckerwood, while
23 used woodpecker. I only collected 5 instances of peckerwood in 1990.
Interestingly, wp was one of 14 terms that were associated with the sex of the
speaker, being statistically more frequent among women. I hypothesize that
although the metathesized version, pw, was not linked to males, the women were
avoiding it because it can also be used as an insulting way to refer to a man
with, I think, an oblique genital reference. Another term for wp is woodcock,
by the way, though still another,woodhen,appears to contradict the theory link-
ing it to the male sex. Raven McDavid noted that pw was a term used by both
blacks and whites for rustics, i.e. poor white trash, rednecks.
Another interesting switch is hoppergrass (3 in the 1930s set, only used
by an 89-yr.-old black former sharecropper in my interviews).
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1993 15:28:07 EST
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: peckerwoods
Sorry, I forgot to sign that last message for those of you who don't see the
sender in your header. The comments on peckerwoods, woodcocks, hoppergrasses?
came from Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga is the bitnet address.
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 11:48:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical item
anyone familiar with "krunka" ("a" of run) for a particular kind of end
piece?
thanks,
beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 16:51:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical items
Is anyone, esp those from Adirondack/mountainous New England, familiar
with _quaking pond_?
anyone familiar with _quick cheese_
does anyone know someone who is _quinty_?
thanks,
beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1993 19:41:23 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: language changes
This is for a member of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Workshop:
How to accurately portray the language problems of someone who's been
zapped 200 years into the future of her native country.
There's one article specifically on that subject -- but it appeared in
ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION in the 1940's.
I tried looking up various American dialects, to find out how they might've
changed since 1793 -- and which ones were around then, for that matter.
And the sources I tried weren't very helpful. I realize there's a shortage
of tape recordings from that era, among other problems.
Example: I haven't been able to find out when the NYC dialect became
distinctively different from the Hudson Valley dialect, and took something
like its present shape. Apparently, some shipborne influence struck the
dialects of New York City, Boston, Charleston, and New Orleans some time
between 1780 and 1880 -- but I'd like to narrow it down a bit more.
Oh, yes -- is there a reference work on _North American_ English? One that
doesn't assume dialects stop at the American/Canadian border?
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 14:08:06 EST
From: Brad Grissom BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU
Subject: Two idioms
Do any of your citation files have information on the expressions 'rocket
scientist' (as in "It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out")
or 'have a bad hair day'? There is curiosity on another list about
their origin. Film or TV provenance is suspected.
Thanks in advance,
Brad Grissom
bgrissom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 15:08:58 EST
From: Bill Kretzschmar WAKJENGL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: language changes
A couple of suggestions about history of American dialects, following Dan
Goodman's message.
Jess Bessinger's Caedmon recording of the History of the English Language
includes his readings of several early American pieces, so you can have
an aural model if you want one.
The question of when dialects "diverged" is interesting. Early diaries and
other materials have not been sufficiently studied, but two streams of thought
have caught my attention. 1) The Helsinki group (Rissanen, Kyto, etc.) have
done much to study Early Modern variation, including American; the Helsinki
Corpus (computer versions of early texts) should prove valuable for that. 2)
Studies of Brazilian Confederates (by e.g. Guy Bailey) and of the Samana
colony (Poplack) suggest that what we consider to be typical features of
Southern American English may not in fact be very old.
Perhaps John Algeo's volume for the Cambridge history on History of American
English (forthcoming) will shed more light on the issue.
Bill Kretzschmar, UGA
Bill Kretzschmar 706-542-2246
University of Georgia FAX 706-542-2181
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 16:40:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical queries
Is anyone familiar with the following? :
1. "quaker soil" If so, do you grow strawberries in it?
2. If something doesn't fit very well, or is no longer appropriate,
say, a t-shirt you tossed in the dryer, and now it deosn't
fit too quick? fit too soon?
fit too early?
3. Using "quick" for "soon" as, for instance, "as quick as I was ten years
old"?
thanks.
beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 14:59:08 EST
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: lexical items
Status: RO
LAMSAS file for cottage cheese does not show any examples of quick cheese, tho
I imagine it's the same thing. Nor does our file for swamp include a quaking
pond. Sorry we can't help out this time. Ellen Johnson, atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1993 16:01:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: Lexical query
Does anyone belong to, or did anyone grow up in, a Methodist church?
If so, do/did you have an annual quarterly meeting?
thanks,
beth
at dictionary of american retional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1993 20:31:31 CST
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: language changes
On Mon, 8 Mar 1993 15:08:58 EST,
Bill Kretzschmar writes:
A couple of suggestions about history of American dialects, following Dan
Goodman's message.
Thanks. I'll pass this on to the person who originally asked, the Science
Fiction and Fantasy Workshop, and some people I think might be interested.
Occurs to me that an American from 200 years ago would have both fewer and
more problems than I'd thought. Fewer, because many people wouldn't notice
how different his accent was. More, because -- well, let's say he's being
offered something to drink. He asks for coffee, because that's the one
thing on the list he's familiar with under that name.
"Do you want regular or unleaded?"
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 18:51:45 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Name Society Sessions at MLA
There are openings for papers in the Name Society sessions at MLA in Toronto.
The deadline for abstracts is Saturday, March 20. ANS accepts a wide range
of topics, from literary onomastics to place names.
Send abstracts to Edwin Lawson, Department of Psychology, SUNY-Fredonia,
Fredonia NY 14063. You may send your abstract to him by e-mail --
lawson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fredonia.
DMLance
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 1993 21:25:42 CST
From: Gerald Walton VCGW%UMSVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: speen
Anybody ever seen any references to the word _speen_? I was at a party
last night with a writer who said he used the expression "tobacco juice
speening down his chin." His agent, or editor, told him there is no such
word as _speen_, and none of the 15 or so people at the party had ever
heard of it (the person grew up in northeast Mississippi). GWW
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 12:40:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical query
Does anyone have a term for a small eating place where the food is
not especially good?
thanks, beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 13:02:05 CST
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: lexical query
Does anyone have a term for a small eating place where the food is
not especially good?
A greasy spoon?
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 13:53:14 EST
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Lexical query
I don't remember how often they were held, but I often heard my grandmother
(from Heard County in west Georgia) tell of the good times had there. This
was apparently the main (only?) social event attended by rural people there
in the early part of the 20th century and included preaching, singing, and
eating. It entailed dressing up in one's finest clothes and people of all
denominations (esp. Baptist) came. Then when the Baptists held their (I don't)
remember the name) comparable meeting, the Methodists attended theirs as well.
The main issue of linguistic interest in all this is how long it took me
as a child to understand that it was a QUARTERLY meeting. I thought the name
was specific to the event: QUARRLY mtg. (very backed a)! It was many years
before I learned it was a common adjective. Ellen Johnson, atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 12:14:46 -0800
From: Alan Kaye AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FULLERTON.EDU
Subject: Re: lexical query
Dear Beth,
The word I use is "Doggie Diner" = "Greasy Spoon", viz., 'small eating
place where the food is lousy'.
Alan Kaye
Ling. Dept.
Calif. State Univ.
Fullerton, CA 92634
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 16:40:11 -0400
From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA
Subject: Re: lexical query
greasy spoon
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 18:29:13 CST
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Bounced Mail
From: M Lynne Murphy lynne[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lees.cogsci.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: lexical query
To: owner-ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu (Beth Lee Simon)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 93 17:07:36 CST
the term i use is "greasy spoon" (not an unusual term, i think)
lynne murphy
Does anyone have a term for a small eating place where the food is
not especially good?
thanks, beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 19:59:09 -0800
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: lexical query
Beth Lee Simon,
The greasy spoon is ubiquitous. But I first heard of it when I
was in boarding school in Seattle [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] 1950. We were given "day out," which
meant we could run around Seattle unsupervised for a day. But we had to
fill our a form announcing where we would take our meals and give the
name of the restaurant. I asked my "swot," senior upperclass roomie,
where to go. He told me to write down Greasy Spoon, which I'd not heard
of. And the location was on "Skid Road." I spent most of the day looking
for that restaurant. And no faculty member prevented my leaving campus.
Since then I have encountered 'greasy chopstick' in San Jose.
An entire class of students from various parts of this country I herded
in London for six months are calling such places in this country the
"barf 'n' tootle" as the result of eating once in a poor pub named
the Bark and Bugle. An unforgetably bad pub meal.
Cheers,
tlc
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 1993 22:36:06 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: lexical query
You're perhaps looking for terms besides 'greasy spoon', which I say with
-z- because I grew up in Texas and my parents were both born in southwest AR.
I think I would say 'dump' or 'dump of an eating place' -- but with my dialect
study I can use 'greasy spoon' only with conscious awareness. After looking at
so many student questionnaires I'm not quite sure what I say anymore, but I'm
sure I use 'dump' and I think my siblings do too. DMLance
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 01:03:55 EST
From: Al Futrell AWFUTR01%ULKYVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: lexical query
Beth: Another term for a rather low-life place to eat is "one-arm
joint." It may not be used as much as it used to be, but depending on
what circles one travels, it is likely to be blurted out now and then.
David Maurer told me over a decade ago that the term is derived from
the fact that the waitress usually brings you everything on one arm
because the place does not use trays to serve food.
---
Al Futrell, awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ulkyvm.louisville.edu
Associate Professor of Communication
University of Louisville
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 01:31:41 -0500
From: Mike Agnes by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU
Subject: low eateries
Although I have never used it, isn't "ptomaine palace"
recorded somewhere? Teen slang, perhaps?
--
Mike Agnes INTERNET: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu
BITNET: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm
FAX: 216 579-1255
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 03:59:35 GMT
From: Chris Katopis katop[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASTRO.OCIS.TEMPLE.EDU
Subject: Origin of "porno" - Greek for ...
what is the derivation of "porno"? i was told that it is from the
greek for "harlot." is this true?
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 08:17:25 -0500
From: No Name Given NOLANDD%UNCWIL.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: lexical query
Beth, there's the presumably widespread "greasy spoon" (That's
/grizi spu:n/, which I have heard throughout the south. Also, though
its scope is probably more general, "gyp joint."
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 09:35:27 -0500
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
ALL OF THESE TERMS FOR GREASY SPOON HAVE A DEPRESSION-ERA FLAVOR TO ME;
NOW WHEN WE THINK OF BAS CULTURE WE CALL IT BY NAME, e.g. Wendy"s,
McDonald's, RAX &c.
On another topic: could anyone on the list tell me (BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]
OUACCVMB.Bitnet) if his/her library has back issues of the LACUS FORUM?
Our ILL Dept is having a hard time finding a library that has it/'em.
Thanks in advance.
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West
Virginia"**********************************************************************
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 08:52:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: bas culture and greasy spoons
Yes, David, I was quite entertained by the responses from another list,
especially those that are now substitutes for Jack In The Box.
There were some for RAX too. I've never heard of that.
beth
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 23:29:34 EST
From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054%TWNMOE10.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Greasy spoon
Dear ADSlers,
In the seventies at UCLA, a local-yokel classmate would refer to asy
greasy spoon as a scarf 'n' barf, a lovely rhyme formation.
Warren A. Brewer
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1993 10:46:10 -0500
From: "Kim S. Campbell" KCAMPBEL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AFIT.AF.MIL
Subject: Lexical Query
In addition to 'greasy spoon' many of my 30-something friends use
the term 'dive' for a less than desirable place to eat.
Kim Campbell
Air Force Institute of Technology
kcampbel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]afit.af.mil
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 08:58:15 -0800
From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: Re: lexical query
On Mon, 15 Mar 1993, Thomas L. Clark wrote:
in London for six months are calling such places in this country the
"barf 'n' tootle" as the result of eating once in a poor pub named
the Bark and Bugle. An unforgetably bad pub meal.
Cheers,
tlc
I've heard students refer to places as "Arf and Barf"-- possibly
self-explanatory.
Joe
Monda
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 12:04:59 -0600
From: URLIGGINS%MEMSTVX1.BitNet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pucc.PRINCETON.EDU
Subject: TO SUBCRIBE TO ADS RANDY LIGGINS
HELLO I AM A FRESHMAN AT MEMPHIS STATE AND I HOPE THAT YOU WILL RESPOND
AND GIVE ME A LITTLE INFOMATION ABOUT YOUR ORGANIZATION.
I LOOK FORWARD TO HEAEING FROM YOU SO WRITE BACK SOON.
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 18:55:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: names for games
What did you call the game, or the play activity (hmm, neopostmodernpc
jargon attack, help!) where someone ran to the top of a rise (natural or
created) and claimed "I am XXXX" and then others ran up, tried to dislodge
the first claimant, and announced "No, I am XXXX"?
thanks,
beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 21:23:24 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: Re: names for games
The announcement we made at the top of the hill was
'I'm King of the Mountain'
After which we all pushed everybody down and those who didn't get
pushed promptly fell down and rolled
Boyd Davis
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 21:20:52 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: names for games
I knew OF the game as 'King of the Hill' but we didn't play it much (in
improvised form) because there are no hills in South Texas where we lived
after I was 8. I don't recall rules like Boyd's, probably because there
was nothing to roll off of. I do recall lots of pushing and shoving, and
that I didn't like the game (because it wasn't a 'play activity' for me).
DMLance
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 23:39:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU
Subject: names for games
In Kentucky in the '50s, we called it "King of the Mountain." Although there
wre both mountains and hills in KY, we didn't need either. It was a fairly
physical game, lots of pushing and shoving. The object was to push the "king"
off his perch, of whatever variety, and become the king yourself. At that
point, you were then attacked by all and sundry.
JCStalker, Mich State Univ. stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 07:46:00 EST
From: "Charles M. Rosenberg" BORSO%IRISHMVS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: names for games
Born and raised in Chicago. We called it "King of the Hill."
Charles Rosenberg, Notre Dame
Reply-To: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: names for games
Southern Indiana (Floyd County); working class, white, 40's and 50's term was
'King of the Hill,' occasionally 'King on the Hill.'
Dennis Preston
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 11:49:06 EST
From: Dan Mosser MOSSERD%VTVM1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: names for games
That was call "king of the hill" where I grew up (Portland OR). Dan Mosser
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 11:04:34 CST
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: names for games
It was King of the Mountain in western Pa in the 50's.
Joan L-W
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 15:52:00 -0500
From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA
Subject: Re: names for games
In Ontario in 40's 50's, "King of the Castle"
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1993 13:36:38 PST
From: Joseph Jones USERLJOE%UBCMTSL.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: nName that game
No clear memories of playing that game in the fifties in
North Carolina. But my three daughters have played it in the
eighties in Vancouver, B.C., Canada. It goes like this:
Stand on top of a high point (rock, play equipment, mound,
whatever). Chant "I'm the king of the castle, you're the
dirty rascal." The rascals try to dislodge or drag down the
king, occupy the favored place, and then make the same
declaration. Perhaps some British influence north of the
border.
Joseph Jones - University of British Columbia Library
jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]library.ubc.ca
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 11:13:30 CST
From: Kyle ARHU018%UABDPO.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: names for games
In central Iowa, late 50's/early 60's, we played "King of the Mountain"--
which is odd since there aren't any mountains in Iowa. My wife played
a particularly rough variation in Louisville KY in the early 60's:
"King of the Tree." That "game" sent more than one kid to the hospital.
Kyle Grimes
arhu018[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uabdpo.dpo.uab.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 13:20:34 CST
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: names for games
Have any of you heard of a game called "Coming Up the Hill," or was it
perhaps local to my neighborhood? It was the favorite game of the
neighborhood boys, although the girls joined in. And it very clearly
reflected the era of not very many years after WWII. (This was in Jackson,
Mississippi, in the early '50s.) We would run up a hill and be gunned
down by the person at the top of the hill (with an imaginary gun). Then
the gunner would decide who had fallen in the most realistic (read gruesome-
looking) position. Re my comment about the era -- the people running up
the hill were always "the Germans and the Japs."
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 14:50:19 -0800
From: Gail Stygall stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: names for games
It was both *king of the mountain* and less frequently *king of the hill*
om Central Indiana in the 50's.
Gail Stygall
stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]byron.u.washington.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1993 21:08:14 -0500
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Even though southern Long Island is as flat as Kansas, in the '40s &
50's the game was "King-of-the-Mt."
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 09:59:33 -0500
From: 00clhouck%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Names of Games
I'm new at this, so I hope this gets transmitted correctly. In the 30's and
40's in South Dakota (where we call them hills, but really are mountains), we
called the game "King of the Mountain," or "King of the Hill." Basically the
rules were similar to what has already been described. Unlike Don Lance, I
really enjoyed the game, probably because I was quite good in defending position
.
Chuck Houck
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1993 15:57:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: lexical query
Is anyone familiar with a july hound?
thanks,
and thanks VERY much for all the king and queen of the mountain (and varr)
responses!
beth simon at dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 09:04:00 EST
From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU
Subject: address
Can anyone give me an email address for Teresa Labov?
James C. Stalker
Department of English
Michigan State University
stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu
(517) 336 7118
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 18:48:43 CST
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Enculturate?
My colleague and I are wondering about the difference between
"enculturate" and "acculturate." We assume there is one, but...
I asked aboutthis on a cross cultural communication group.
One man searched his anthro sources and could not find
"enculturate." But my students use it frequently. Any ideas?
Thanks.
Joan Livingston-Webber
webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1993 22:49:09 -0500
From: RICHARD SPEARS RSPEARS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM
Subject: [hw]
I am having a polite argument with a college in a speech department
over the status of voiceless [w] (i.e., [hw]) in American English.
He is certain that it is declining rapidly in use, and is being
replaced with [w]. I have never noticed any such decline and assume
that it is as alive and well as it ever was--and I refuse to give it
up--as a feature of some dialects. Would you care to share your opinion
on this matter, or better yet, any recent facts--formal or informal
surveys or the like? Certainly this is a matter in which dialectologists
ought to be quite authoritative.
I need some ammunition.
Thanks. Richard Spears
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 01:01:01 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Enculturate?
en- vs ad- + culture + -ate
What a difference a prefix makes! For me, the en- prefix tends to pattern
with transitive verbs and ad- with intransitive verbs. But what do I know?
Joan L-W's students surely know what they're up to when they enculturate
others or are enculturated themselves.
DMLance
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 07:48:00 EST
From: "Thomas M. Stephens" STEPHENS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
Richard,
I continue to pronounce [hw], even though I have lived in [w] dialect
areas for the last 17 years. When I return home to nwSC, I notice that
everyone there still uses [hw] rather than [w]. So here's some ammunition.
Tom Stephens (Stephens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Zodiac.Rutgers.Edu)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 07:59:00 EST
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: [hw]
About the only place you culd find agreement with your assessment would be
from Kurath and McDavid's Pronunciation of English in the Atlantic States.
They note that the [h] in [hw] is widespread in the East Coast. The kicker is
that they notice that it is largely missing in a wide Mid-Atlantic area --
precisely the area which will 'swell' in influence as American Dialects move
West. Yield to your friend; the [h] of [hw] is on its way out. I am a
Louisvillian, forexample, and the 40's and 50's pronunciation there was
largely with [h]; nowadays, it has gone the way of all useless, marked
linguistic fol-de-rol. Doubtless DARE people, particularlly Jim Hartman at
Kansas, could give you a more detailed and up to date account of its more
precise distribution, but you should be prepared to buy drinks; you lose.
Dennis Preston
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 07:32:11 CST
From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
Subject: Re: Enculturate?
In the kind of literature I have read--unfortunately I cannot provide
specific references now--children are enculturated (into their cultures,
which will become native to them) while foreign adults are acculturated to
the new cultures they are brought into. I understand both processes to be
forms of assimilation, the first into what will become one's native culture,
the second into a host culture. I hope this information will steer you into
some direction. You may consider checking some Ward Goodenough's writings
(1960s) on kinship terms. Most of the culture/language contact literature
speaks of "acculturation".
Best,
Salikoko Mufwene
University of Chicago
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 07:38:39 CST
From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
Subject: Re: Enculturate?
Don Lance may be right, but I remember Melville Herskovits and several other
Anglophone scholars since him speak of the "acculturation of the Negro" in
either the United States or the New World.
Salikoko Mufwene
s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 08:17:40 CST
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
Sometime in the early 60's in western PA, my high school
English teacher forced us in unison classroom drills to
aspirate [w] prior to the beginning of certain words--though none
of us were ever quite sure which words. I didn't get it at all
until I took linguistics some years later and realized that
she was an incredible prescriptivist. I have no fondness for
[hw] as a result and would be happy if it were actually in decline.
I would be suspicious if a communications teacher were actually
dealing with [hw]. Perhaps the two of you are arguing
about different phenomena--maybe it's just no longer perceived
as a presitgious form. (Yeah!)
Joan Livingston-Webber
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 08:21:00 CST
From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: /hw/
Re: /hw/-/w/. When I moved to Illinois some years ago, one of the
things I noticed right off was that there was a small but noticeable
group of /hw/ speakers. But, especially in the last decade or so,
that group has shrunk to near non-existence, to judge by the usage o
the college crowd. Where formerly, during transcription exercises, I
could count on at least 3 or 4 (but never more than 5 or 6) who woul
transcribe which and witch differently. Four or five years ago this
number had shrunk to 1 or 2; then an occasional person, and for the
past year or two, no one, not even after we had discussed the
possibility in class. I might add that the transcription was correct
in that the usage reported there was borne out by personal interview
with students.
I am still expecting to find /hw/ speakers sporadically, but
if not in the next year or so, perhaps they, like so much
prairie grass, have disappeared.
Edward Callary
Northern Illinois University
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 11:28:04 -0500
From: 00clhouck%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: [hw]
After teaching hundreds of English linguistics classes over the past 27 years
here in Middletown USA (Muncie, Indiana), reflecting primarily east-central
Indiana, but also northwest and south, southeast Indiana, I have come to much
the same conclusion expressed by Edward Callary and Dennis Preston--it's on
the way out.
Charles L. Houck
Ball State University
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 10:51:21 CST
From: "Gregory K. Iverson" iverson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONVEX.CSD.UWM.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
Charles Houck writes about /hw/:
o After teaching hundreds of English linguistics classes over the past 27 years
o here in Middletown USA (Muncie, Indiana), reflecting primarily east-central
o Indiana, but also northwest and south, southeast Indiana, I have come to much
o the same conclusion expressed by Edward Callary and Dennis Preston--it's on
o the way out.
Older diehards like me notwithstanding, it does indeed seem that /hw/
is quickly going the same way way as /hj/ ('hue' = 'you') for many
people. But does anyone know of speakers for whom /hw/ /w/ yet who
still retain /hj/ in contrast with /j/? The distribution appears to
me to exclude this possibility, while allowing for the other three:
(1) /hw/, /w/, /hj/, /j/; (2) /hw/, /w/, /j/; (3) /w/, /j/. The
type of system that appears not to be occur, then, is the one that
merges /hw/ into /w/ but still contrasts /hj/ and /j/, i.e.
*(4) /w/, /hj/, /j/. Does this seem to others to be the way it is?
In Peter Ladefoged's 3rd edition of A Course in Phonetics (Harcourt
Brace Jovanovich, 1993), p. 66, it is remarked that though /hw/ does
indeed seem to be on the way out, speakers may retain the contrast
in less common or fancier words, so that 'whether' is more likely
to show [hw] than is 'what'. I have pattern (1) above throughout, so
it's hard for me to sense this distinction in lexical frequency, but
it may well be there for others.
--
Greg
iverson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]convex.csd.uwm.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 12:52:00 CST
From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: /hj/ and /hw/
Re: /hw/ /w/ /hj/ /j/. Gregory Iverson that a three-way contrast of
/w/ /hj/ and /j/ 'appears not to occur.' Yet if I read him right, th
this is JUST the system which is hardening in the Illinois at least.
There is just NO movement toward deleting initial /h/ before /j/. I
had thought several years ago that I had detected an incipient
change in this direction, albeit highly lexically determined, e.g.
occasional h-lessness in human and humor, but none in Houston (the
Texas sibb-shibolith), Hugh or other words. Again judging from
students' transcription as well as hours of just listening, what
little there was has disappeared and whoever I hear it from now is
invariably an out of stater.
This was one feature of a general dialect survey of Illinois
which I was conducting, but, for obvious reasons the item was
dropped; where there is no variation, there is no use for
diagnostic items.
As an aside, now I'm remembering one of the first occasions I
became aware of this h-dropping. Oodles of years ago, Dean Martin
had the popular song 'Houston,' h-less of course. As a second
aside, I've heard of Youston, Texas from dozens of people, none
of whom would say Whitney, much less hwitney, Youston.
Edward Callary
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 09:33:41 -0500
From: No Name Given NOLANDD%UNCWIL.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
Isn't voiceless [w]'s range wider than just one cluster?
And even
[hw] has varied with [w] for a long time.
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 14:09:19 -0500
From: Bruce Southard ENSOUTHA%ECUVM1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
In 1977, while attending an NEH seminar conducted by Raven McDavid at the
University of Chicago, I went through the field records for the Linguistic
Atlas of the North Central States in order to chart the distribution of /hw/
and /w/ in the words "wheelbarrow," "whetstone," and "whip." The LANCS field
records clearly show /hw/ to be the most common pronunciation throughout Ohio,
Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin. /w/ was used by more than 50% of
the Chicago informants, but had limited and very scattered distribution
elsewhere. As far as LANCS is concerned, /hw/ is alive and well.
Regards,
Bruce Southard
English Department, East Carolina University
ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1.bitnet
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 14:25:31 EST
From: "Betty S. Phillips" EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENGFAC.INDSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
In reply to Greg Iverson's query as to whether /w/, /hj/, /j/ is a
possible grouping, yes, it is mine. I'm from South Georgia
originally.
Betty Phillips
ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]engfac.indstate.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 11:17:20 PST
From: Joseph Jones USERLJOE%UBCMTSL.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Enculturation
Enculturation is listed in the OED 2nd ed., earliest occurrence 1948.
That and enculturate are found in Random House dictionary of
the English language 2nd ed., the verb described as a back
formation.
Joseph Jones - University of British Columbia Library
jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]library.ubc.ca
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 11:18:38 PST
From: Joseph Jones USERLJOE%UBCMTSL.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: /hw/
/hw/ is persistent. I have lost many markers from
the first half of my life in North Carolina, but
not that one. Twenty-three years in Canada and
a native family that all say /w/ have no effect.
Is that feature disappearing in the region(s)
where it is well-established?
Joseph Jones - University of British Columbia Library
jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]library.ubc.ca
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 13:47:51 CST
From: "Gregory K. Iverson" iverson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONVEX.CSD.UWM.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
Betty S. Phillips offers the following:
o In reply to Greg Iverson's query as to whether /w/, /hj/, /j/ is a
o possible grouping, yes, it is mine. I'm from South Georgia
o originally.
So, it looks as if all the possible combinations are realized,
then (well, except for systems in which /j/ /hj/, or /w/ /hw/,
i.e. the direction of merger is always to the unmarked, voiced
glide, right?)
--
Greg
iverson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]convex.csd.uwm.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 14:52:25 CST
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: Enculturate?
Actually, I had in mind less a disciplinary distinction between
terms than a common usage distinction. The students I was
thinking of are in composition classes and are not (as far as I
know) making the same distinctions scholars would. If anyone
can help me think of a way to elicit the semantics a speaker
has in mind, I'd appreciate it. In any case, I think my
intial message was misleading.
Thanks.
Joan Livingston-Webber
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 18:32:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
I'm [hj] for -humor-, while weather and whether are homophs.
beth simon
(What has found my personal goat is the pronc for -accurate-, and Acura.
Around Madison WI (esp the radio/tv news) is ker
ker-, not kjer.
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 1993 20:27:00 EST
From: Bob Howren HOWREN%UNC.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
CONCERNING "VOICELESS .W.": I'm afraid I can't supply you with the
ammunition you want in your collegial dispute. I've been teaching
the phonetics course for our new linguistics graduate students at
UNC-Chapel Hill every fall semester for the past sixteen years, and
it has been my observation, if the fifteen or so students in this
course each semester constitute a reliable informal sample, that,
alas!, your colleague in the speech department is right. I've
watched the distinction disappear gradually over the years, until last
fall, I was the only person in the classroom, save one Korean and one
diehard North Carolinian (I was born and raised in north Georgia),
who distinguished between "which" and "witch." It's a cryin' shame,
but w(h)at can we do?
----Bob Howren at UNC
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 12:37:38 -0600
From: Alan Slotkin ARS7950%TNTECH.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
I, too, am an [hw] speaker by background (NYC), but am living in a clearly
[w] area (Middle Tennessee--between Knoxville and Nashville). None of my
students is an [hw] speaker, so clearly that pronunciation is gone from this
area even among its most cultured speakers. Sorry about that.
Alan
Alan Slotkin
ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 10:45:43 -0800
From: Gail Stygall stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
I am a midwesterner by background and education, central Indiana, and have
never had [hw]. In teaching intro courses in linguistics in Indiana and
Ohio, I would usually have a handful of students each year who had the
[hw]~[h] distinction, perhaps 5 or 6 in each class of 35-50. Now in the
Pacific Northwest, I have even fewer students with the [hw], last quarter
having only 2 of 35, typical numbers since I've been in Seattle. At least
in my experience, I see the [hw] disappearing.
Gail Stygall
stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]byron.u.washington.edu
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 13:12:00 CST
From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: /hw/ one last time
Bruce Southard makes an important point about /hw/ and LANCS.
Even though the LANCS records extend over more than 20 years,
from Marckwardt's 1939 entries through Shuy's of the 1960s, there
is a consistent picture of the Midwest as essentially /h/-ful.
I have a couple of the LANCS records in my office and from them
the /hw/ extends at least to the Mississippi River. Charles Houck
can attest to its presence in Iowa, but in my records for Whiteside
County, bordering the Mississippi just north of Rock Island, both
speakers, a 74-year old woman and a 45-year old man, have robust
initial /hw/ in 'Whiteside.'
But it generally disappeared at least in North Central Illinois at
least 20 years ago. By 1970 the areas was essentially h-less;
which and witch were indistinguishable.
We all know that - generally speaking - people come and go, move
in and out, but dialects remain. One of the things which fascinated
me, moving to Northern Illinois from Louisiana with a New
Mexican wife and two infants, was to see the kids grow up
with the merger but ostensibly learning to talk from their
mother who had then, and still has to this day, a strong
aspiration in which, what, why, etc. The prevailing dialect
pattern had no effect on her, nor did the kids' mocking her
/hwEn/ and /hway/. I can remember this being an embarrassment
to them and them asking her, very seriously, /way/ not /hway/
she talked that way.
This story (all true) illustrates a number of things about
dialects, but the point I want to make is that sometime
apparently around the early middle or middle part of this
century, in this strongly /h/ ful area, /hwEn/ and its
cousins came under obvious social pressure. People became
aware of this particular distinction and it was all downhill
from that point on. Other distinctions, which to me are just
as obvious - or even moreso - fail to raise to any sort of
social consciousness at all. But the conscious awareness of
/hw/ and its stigmatisiation remains and its initiation and
retention since teenagers in DeKalb today are aware when a new kid m
move in from out of town and says /hway/ for /way/. They do not,
however, seem to care if the newcomer merges or Don and Dawn.
I would appreciation hearing from people with similar stories.
Edward Callary
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 1993 19:30:00 EST
From: Bob Howren HOWREN%UNC.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
TO: DENNIS PRESTON 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET
My dissertation (Indiana U. 1958) was on the speech of Louisville.
I don't have a copy handy as I write this, but it's my recollection
that at that time the /hw/vs/w/ contrast was still in evidence in
Louisville. But, given my experience at UNC (see my previous posting),
I join you in advising Richard to prepare to buy his colleague in the
speech department a drink. -- Bob Howren (HOWREN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNC.bitnet)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 18:17:31 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: /hw/
On hw- It seems to me that most Missouri students say wich and which exactly
alike, and almost as many say hue and you homophonously. Have any of you
ever heard on TV of white toilet tissue? It seems to my ear that it's always
wite. Mr. Wipple set the standard some time ago; I'm sure that's the reason
only hnuts like me keep the -h. I've collected lots of student questionnaires
that should have fairly accurate responses on hw- and hj-, and in a couple of
years I'll get around to tabulating results.
On en-/ad- and shifting of cultural proclivities. My impression of the litera-
ture is the same as Sali's. I've seen references to schools acculturating
immigrant children. Maybe enculturate has increased in its frequency and is
replacing the intransitive as well as transitive verb for volitional or causal
changes in subconscious cultural responses. A purist might insist on using
en- in the transitive verb and ac- in the intransitive, but as with many
usage items.... Lots of hills of beans will be made by this item.
DMLance
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 18:33:52 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [hw]
On hw- again. I think line noise knocked me off while I was reporting on
my family's hw-. All five siblings in my generation (South Texas) retained
the h-. Borth years 1927 - 1937. But the 9 in the next generation have no
h- in either 'why' or 'hue'. Totally unrelated is the fact that all five in
my generation are right handed, but 7 or 8 of the 9 in the next are left
handed.
DMLance
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 18:57:18 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Enculturate?
Joan Livingston-Webber commented that her initial message may have been
misleading. Whatever distinction one might want to enforce in the use
of 'enculturate' and 'acculturate' might be rather hard to convey to students
who continue to hear the two words used interchangeably, or at least
seemingly so. These words are more similar than imply/infer, but students
persist in using 'infer' where English teachers want 'imply' and may not be
much more successful in controlling en- ac-. It would be interesting
to look for patterns of usage in discussions of multiculturalism.
DMLance
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 1993 20:45:55 -0800
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: left-handedness and lack of aspiration across generations
Don Lance needs to call the Associated Press. Can you see the headline?
"Scientist discovers left-handedness governs breath"
Love it. Best thing on here in days.
Cheers,
tlc
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 11:48:00 -0500
From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA
Subject: Re: [hw]
A quick fact is this, that as a teacher of composition, as well as of
linguistics, I have to correct spelling mistakes in student essays
more frequently than you would believe that confuse WHETHER, WEATHER,
AND would you believe WETHER.
Here is a rhyme I was taught as a youth. My students find it quite
quaint: Whether the weather be cold / Or whether the weather be hot /
Whatever the weather, we'll weather the weather / Whether we like it
or not.
I also find teaching [w] and [hw] in phonetics quite difficult.
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 09:17:21 -0800
From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: Re: names for games
On Fri, 19 Mar 1993, Beth Lee Simon wrote:
What did you call the game, or the play activity (hmm, neopostmodernpc
jargon attack, help!) where someone ran to the top of a rise (natural or
created) and claimed "I am XXXX" and then others ran up, tried to dislodge
the first claimant, and announced "No, I am XXXX"?
thanks,
beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
King of the Castle. " I'm the king of the castle and you're the dirty rascal!"
A tussle followed.
Joe Monda
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 11:05:36 -0800
From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
I use /hw/ in "why" "where" "what" and "when," at least. I learned to
talk in central Washington State 60 years ago. I also say /krik/ for "creek."
Joe Monda
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1993 15:40:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: [hw]
I learned my talk in Iowa. Neutral "wh-" questions are [w]; +incredulity
questions are [hw]. That, i notice is NOT the case in Wisconsin, where
astonished speakers hold the lip rounding, and then take as long as possible
with the vowel.
beth
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 08:40:00 CST
From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Arkansas natives
Bill Clinton, in his resignation speech as Gov of
Arkansas, began 'My fellow Arkansans.' I seem to remember
some years ago reading that Arkansas natives referred
to themselves as 'Arkansawyers.' I believe Gary Underwood
mentions this somewhere. Are these terms in free variation,
is one formal the other informal, or has usage changed?
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1993 20:42:54 -0500
From: RICHARD SPEARS RSPEARS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM
Subject: [w] recap
Thanks to everyone who responded to my question about initial [w] vs
[hw]. The outcome of all this is not who wins, but how this matter
is to be characterized in a book that my colleague is writing and I am
mmajority, but I am uncomfortable with "[hw] is all but gone."
My classroom surveys taken in a phonetics class, 8-20 students,
annually, 1965-1990 were totally inconclusive. Totally. Samples
taken in a larger undergraduate class in the 1980s were also
inconclusive. I had always assumed that my classroom was a hit or miss
sampling of the various regional features, and never put much stock
in them except as an object lesson in variation. I am still wary
about using a nationally random sampling for localized phenomena.
Of course, my original question was flawed. There are at least three
things to ask about, not two. [w], voiceless [w], and [hw]. One
of the responses pointed this out. Maybe a fourth, [Xw] for very heavy,
perhaps Spanish influenced pronunciations. That is to say, I am a voiceless
w user, but I think that a strong [hw] sounds strange and [Xw] sounds
foreign.
And again, how is voiceless [w] getting on in those pernicious pockets
of h-puffing where it is supposed to be the norm? Classroom surveys
will not answer this one.
All this has been highly stimulating. I am grateful for your
replies, and I hope my colleague and I can say something innocuous
or even true about the matter.
R. Spears
RSPEARS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1993 16:18:52 EST
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: [w] recap
From Ellen Johnson, atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga:
For those of you who might have the time and interest to explore it, we
have several files from LAMSAS that would be useful in analyzing w and wh in
the East and Southeast. These include 'wheelbarrow', 'whip', and one that has
been completely entered, proofread, and is available in electronic (ascii) form
'What time is it?'. For information on how to access these, contact me
directly at the above address. Any takers? Interpretive aids are included.
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 10:52:15 -0500
From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA
Subject: Re: [hw]
Preaspirated /w/ is declining in Canada as in the U.S. Two questions
in the Dialect Topography of the Golden Horseshoe, the region around
the western tip of Lake Ontario incl Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton,
Niagara Falls, and all points between (pop. ca. 5m, more than
one-sixth of Cdn pop, in this 250km strip), ask:
Do whine and wine sound the same or different?
Do witch and which sound the same or different?
The database also includes some young people across the U.S. border,
in upstate NY. I've included the figures for them as well.
Canadians upstate NY
whine has [hw] which has [hw] whine [hw] which [hw]
% (n/N) % (n/N) % (n/N) % (n/N)
14-19 4.7 3/64 11.3 7/62 3.3 1/33 9.4 3/32
20-29 12.5 37/297 13.6 40/295 0 0/30 6.5 2/31
30-39 13.7 22/166 16.4 27/165
40-49 24.5 37/151 20.7 31/150
50-59 40.6 43/106 36.2 38/105
60-69 48.6 18/37 45.9 17/37
70-79 47.2 17/36 62.5 20/32
ovr 80 68.6 48/70 71.8 51/71
Average 24.3 25.2
The figures make a nice ascending graph correlated with age, as expected.
The decline is simmilar in England, with /hw/ disappearing except in
RP. It does not seem to be disappearing in Scotland, where it is a
feature of all styles in all social groups. It may turn out that, in a
generation or so, it is a dialect marker of Scots speech.
Jack Chambers
.