There are 2 messages totalling 43 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ozark(s)

 2. "little" and "jr"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 23:45:49 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s)



Bethany Dumas' example of Ozark-"correction" has a nice ambiguity.

She apparently meant "Folk Speech in the Ozark [Mountains] and [the]

Appalachian Mountains" (Folk Speech in the Ozark and Appalachian Mountains),

but those who edited her title (incorrected it) wandered into grammatical

fuzziness, producing "Folk Speech in the Ozarks and Appalachian Mountains."

Had they (could be he or she) _corrected_ the phrase they would have

inserted "[and] in the [Appalachian Mountains]." I suspect that the

Speaker's Bureau "editor" didn't just commit a "syntactic blunder" but

got a little brain-scrambling from trying to sort out issues underlying

the current trend to add -s to "Ozark" in attributive position. Thanks,

Bethany, for the contribution that verifies that obfuscation often pushes

clarification aside.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Mar 1995 15:44:40 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



Right, most of the cases of John II I am familiar with involve something other

than a father-son situation. In many cases, I think, it involves an uncle-

nephew situation, where the uncle names the son after his brother. I know of a

couple of cases like that in auto racing (which I cover as a journalist fairly

often). I think there have been some instances also where, if the son's name

is not an exact replication of the father's name, he may be called John II

instead of Jr.

One of the weirdest is the case of the racing Vukoviches. The father was Bill

(at least to racing fans and the press); his son raced as Billy Jr. (although,

I seem to remember, their given names were not exactly the same), and then the

grandson became known as Billy Vukovich III. Then there is the current driver,

Jacques Villeneuve, whose father, Gilles Villeneuve, was a famous driver (who

died racing), and whose uncle, Jacques Villeneuve, was a slightly less famous

one (who didn't die racing...yet) and still races occasionally. Yet both are

simply known as Jacques Villeneuve--no II or anything else!

                    jmiller

                    franklin college (ind.)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1995 to 1 Mar 1995

***********************************************







There are 12 messages totalling 271 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "little" and "jr" (9)

 2. Fr. Tit-, Baby (cf. Little, Jr., II)

 3. Free books on writing

 4. RE Free books on writing



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:46:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



Where I grew up (around Louisville KY in the 40's and 50's, 'little' was a

very common tag for a child (or other younger relative of) a person whose

habits, looks, or characteristics were very much like that of the elder. My

bother (Donald) was often called 'Little Andy' (after my father Andrew)

because he walked, spoke, or in general acted like him. It was especially

odd, perhaps, since I looked exactly like my father (and my brother didn't),

bnut the other behavioral characteristics were the ones that one out in

getting the 'Little Andy' moniker.

I take this practice (which I have certainly noticed outside the single

example I give above) to be obviously related to the incidental uses of

such things as 'She's a little Shakespeare' (or 'Mozart,' or 'Newt,' or

whatever).

By the way, such uses were, in my experiences, not family uses but friends of

family.

Dennis Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu 

Changing to the clumsy, slow

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:27:20 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



A family in Mission, Texas, named their four sons Ozcar Garza I, II, III,

IV. They were born in 1932 - 1940. I knew a cpouple of the boys (just

behind me in school) but never knew just why the parents did that to their

kids.                    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:49:16 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



  A family in Mission, Texas, named their four sons Ozcar Garza I, II, III,

  IV. They were born in 1932 - 1940. I knew a cpouple of the boys (just

  behind me in school) but never knew just why the parents did that to their

  kids.                    DMLance



What did they call them? One, Two, Three, and Four?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 07:48:52 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



 Jacques Villeneuve, whose father, Gilles Villeneuve, was a famous driver (who

 died racing), and whose uncle, Jacques Villeneuve, was a slightly less famous

 one (who didn't die racing...yet) and still races occasionally. Yet both are

 simply known as Jacques Villeneuve--no II or anything else!

                     jmiller

                     franklin college (ind.)



The French equivalents of "Sr." and "Jr." are "pere" (father) and "fils" (son),

and the numbering scheme seems to be fairly rare outside of royalty. It's

not surprising to me that they're not known as "oncle" (uncle) and "neveu"

(nephew), which would be the only real options in this case.



What I find most intriguing about the Sr./Jr. and the I, II, III... systems

is that they seem to be exclusively [+male] designators. I know of no females

to whom equivalent designators have been applied--do any of you? When daughters

are named after their mothers, each of them is simply known by the name given

to them, from what I have observed. Does anyone know a historical or a social

reason for this? For males is it simply a way of keeping score? I'd be

interested.



I've also noticed that the I, II, III... system seems to be mainly a [+ upper

class] system, while the Sr./Jr. system seems to be much more widespread.

Does anyone have an explanation for that, too?



Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:22:30 -0600

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



   A family in Mission, Texas, named their four sons Ozcar Garza I, II, III,

   IV. They were born in 1932 - 1940. I knew a cpouple of the boys (just

   behind me in school) but never knew just why the parents did that to their

   kids.                    DMLance

 

 What did they call them? One, Two, Three, and Four?

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 



Sounds like George Foreman and all his little Georges.

   Lew Sanborne

St. Ambrose University

English and Academic Support

Davenport, IA 52803

319 324-8266



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 10:54:32 EST

From:  Stanley Dubinsky  DUBINSK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



On Thu, 02 Mar 95 10:05:12 EST Janet M. Fuller said:

 Stan -- thought you might like this...

 

 ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

 A family in Mission, Texas, named their four sons Ozcar Garza I, II, III,

 IV. They were born in 1932 - 1940. I knew a cpouple of the boys (just

 behind me in school) but never knew just why the parents did that to their

 kids.                    DMLance



I guess this would prove that George Foreman, in addition to being

stupid, was also unoriginal.

-- Stan



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 09:54:31 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Fr. Tit-, Baby (cf. Little, Jr., II)



 Jacques Villeneuve, whose father, Gilles Villeneuve, was a famous driver (who

 died racing), and whose uncle, Jacques Villeneuve, was a slightly less famous

 one (who didn't die racing...yet) and still races occasionally. Yet both are

 simply known as Jacques Villeneuve--no II or anything else!

                     jmiller



 The French equivalents of "Sr." and "Jr." are "pere" (father) and "fils"

 (son), and the numbering scheme seems to be fairly rare outside of royalty.

 Bruce Gelder



Elsewhere, this kind of thing is current. In Louisiana,

the dimunitive (always in its reduced formed, petit   tit) is often

affixed to a name, as in Tit Maurice. This can even happen if a someone's

given name is English (as is very often the case): Tit Don, Tit Johnnie

(the latter appears in the song "Pauv' tit Johnnie peut pas danser").

In written form, spellings very: tit, ti, 'ti, T-. This is generally reserved

for use with boys' names to distinguish son from father or in a nickname

(fittingly referred to in Cajun French as "des tits noms"), but Cheramie

& Gill (1992) report one use with a female nickname: 'ti Cherie. This is

one of the lexical items that has been retained in Cajun English. For

more, see Cheramie & Gill "Lexical Choice in Cajun Vernacular

Enlgish" in _Cajun Vernacular English_, ed. by Ann Martin Scott, 1992.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that this usage has its roots in

some French regionalism.



In Haiti, a couplet of terms exist made famous by their notorious bearers

Papa Doc (Duvalier) and Baby Doc, father and son respectively. In France,

the former is always referred to as Papa Doc and the latter Baby Doc, with

totally assimilated pronunciation. The borrowing _baby_ appears as a

diminutive elsewhere in French: le baby-foot `foosball' (that is, table

soccer; I can't find _foosball_ in the dictionary I have at hand at the

moment, but that is how we always referred to it in English when I was

growing up).



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE&UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 13:12:16 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



I don't know the explanation for the male orientation of Jr./Sr., I/II, etc.,

but I do know of one case that may mean things are changing. We had a student

here a couple of years ago from New York City who went by "Shirley Williams

Jr." and claimed that was in fact her given name. Maybe we are on our way to

eliminating the gender-exclusive nature of this, too?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Feb 1995 15:50:05 U

From:  Asha Johnson  ajohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOON.COM 

Subject: Re: Free books on writing



    Reply to:  RE Free books on writing

Dear Allan Metcalf:

I am also interested in receiving copies of your forthcoming books. We publish

travel guides and are concerned with clear, interesting writing with no fluff.

My address is

Asha Johnson

Pre-press Director

Moon Publications

330 Wall Street, Suite 1

Chico CA, 95928

ajohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moon.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:02:41 EST

From:  Boyd Davis  FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



As a female from Dennis Preston's neck of the woods, I have a Southern double

name, but use only the second part, because I got so tired, as a child, of

being 'Little X'.

  Sr, Jr and III..VI was explained to me this way: Sr. is the oldest living

male. Jr. is the next oldest living male named for the senior. Therefore

if Jr. has a son, who continues the name, that son is III.Occasionally there

would be a grandson contemporaneous with the Sr., who would be IV. When Sr.

dies, unless there is some marked social feature associated with either the

Sr-ness of the Sr or the Jr-ness of the Jr,* the Jr. drops the Jr, but the

numbering continues sequentially, and I don't think the numbering changes so

that III becomes Jr. as III wasn't the second. Also, there is some factor

affecting parallel ('cadet'?) branches. Since my explanation came originally

from my mother, who was explaining a rather tangled geneological issue at the

time, I suspect some aspect of the Napoleonic Code is lurking in the back-

ground.

       *compare Hank Williams and Hank Williams Jr, for example



Women in my part of the country seldom had the exact same name as a mother

and grandmother and were more likely to have family names from maternal line

if first name was from paternal, and viceversa.*I suspect these naming patterns

are antebellum habits, ethnically restricted, though the Southern historian

Joel Williamson (and a couple of articles about 5 years ago in the AmHistRev)

looked briefly at patternings in names assigned to slaves (as opposed to

names chosen for oneself or within one's family).



       *thus at a family gathering, if there were three females of

a similar age and each was named 'Helen', the use of 'little' and the

middle names would tell family members which family branch claimed which

Helen. Little Helen would be the daughter or oldest namesake (niece or

granddaughter) of Helen-The-Matriarch, wife of whoever was Sr. Helen Anne

would probably be from Second Son's/Second Daughter's family, with the Anne

coming from the 'outside line' and Helen James would be from a third grouping.

While there are variations on this, the members of the extended family would

know how to unravel the particular characteristics of naming patterns within

the family and to explain things like just what 'double first cousin' really

meant. I wish I understood it better --



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Mar 1995 14:15:04 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



They called them "Oscar the First,""Oscar the Second," etc.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 09:28:07 CST

From:  Shih-Ping Wang  wsp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BDC.COM.TW 

Subject: RE Free books on writing



Dear Allan Metcalf:



    I am also interested in receiving copies of your forthcoming books.

We are working on natural language processing, including MT and grammar

checker. Following is my mailing address:



    Shih-ping Wang

    2F, #5, Industry East Rd IV

    Science Park, Hsinchu 300

    Taiwan, R.O.C.



(e-mail: wsp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bdc.com.tw)



Thanks in advance!



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Mar 1995 to 2 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. the Ozarks and other plurals (2)

 2. Ozark(s) and other plural(s) (3)

 3. When/where is the next Methods in Dialectology?

 4. "little" and "jr" (2)

 5. Looking for some useful arguments (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 11:12:39 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



The etymology that Donald Lance provided for "the Ozarks" is fascinating

and raises the example of British plurals, such as "trades unions" vs.

"trade unions" [Amer. usage].

    On a related head, could I ask for comment on these British

plurals? How does "their" figuration of collectives differ from ours?

They say that the United States "are" doing such-and-such in the news

and that British Oil "have" announced such-and-such. Does anyone know

if a Trades Union X or a Trade Union X "has" or "have" been considered

as a plural traditionally in Britain?          --Cathy Bodin







On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  The issue of "Ozarks" is more complex than Peter McGraw's response implies.

  As well as we can determine, the word came from French explorers in

  the late 1600s who wrote "aux arcs" on maps to indicate where the Arcansa

  Indians lived and hunted. Liaison in French phonology would yield a

  pronunciation of this abbreviation that would sound very much like "Ozarks,"*

  which was the early English spelling. So "Ozark" is more like a folk

  back-formation used in attributive positions where the "plural" ending

  is not common in American English -- i.e., Ozark Mountains. All the toponyms

  on official maps have "Ozark" in attributive position, as do business names

  in the area. However, in recent decades, the -s form has come into use in

  attributive position (Ozarks Conservation District, etc.). (*The final -s

  in French is a further complication in the story.) Further, McGraw's

  question about "Applachains Mountains" etc. points out that the anti-Ozark

  copy-editors aren't so smart after all, though they may be following a local

  trend. Every now and then I try to steer my mind toward this question but

  haven't done systematic study. In British nomenclature we get "trades unions"

  but "trade unions" in American English. I think the attributive -s form in

  similar compounds is on the rise in American English, and the anti-Ozark

  editors may be reflecting that trend. It's this latter trend that I haven't

  done anything systematic on. How widespread/sporadic is the trend?

                                DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 08:16:21 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



I just saw a program on Discovery (or maybe A&E) about the mystery

of Pancho Villa's gold, said consistently to be hidden, if it existed,

in the "Sierra Madres" - presumably the standard English ellipsis for

"Sierra Madre Mountains", itself a pleonasm (since "Sierra" means

a mountain range).



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 18:41:16 +0100

From:  Rob Vousten  vousten[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]XS4ALL.NL 

Subject: When/where is the next Methods in Dialectology?



I remember reading about the next Methods in Dialectology conf being held

in Wales, summer 96. Does someone know the exact time and place?

Please respond via private e-mail, as I am not a regular reader of this list.



Rob Vousten

Nijmegen, Netherlands

e-mail: vousten[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]xs4all.nl



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 13:02:07 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



My impression about English usage (based upon living in London for

a year in 1970-71) is that corporate entities always take the

plural verb form. So I heard "Harrods ARE having a sale" and

"Selfridges ARE open from ..." (all apostrophes delibertely

omitted). Etc.



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 12:31:52 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



When words like "sierra madre" become attached to "mountians" they no

longer function as Spanish words. Official maps published in English

do not use tildes or accent marks on Spanish-origin place names. The

US Board on Geographic Names discusses this matter often but ends up

not wanting to use a mix of orthographic practices. The apostrophes

used in AmerIndian names pose even greater challenges than tildes,

which can be respelled as -ny-, and accent marks, which are suprasegmental

rather than "segmental." It's kinda too bad that typographers and qwerty

devotees have imposed such heavy strictures on orthographic practices.

Some newspapers in the Southwest will use tildes and occasionally accent

marks. Ah, the glories of monocultural monolingualism in advanced societies!

Seriously, the big powers (England, the U.S., France, Germany, Russia) can

get by with imposing orthographies on print media. Cf. Turkey's

romanization in the 1920s (to become a potential big power), Serbian

imposition of Cyrillic on the rest of Yugoslavia, and all the angst

associated with pinyin in Mainland China and Giles-Wade in Taiwan. And

reluctance of any keyboard-maker to deviate from the (financially

successful) qwerty arrangement of letters of the standard typewriter.



I've drifted off onto a different topic, but will come back to the opening

idea. The discussions on this list of such phrasings as "the La Brea Tar Pits"

set aside the fact that "la" no longer functions as an article when this

name is used in English,   just as "al-" is no longer an (Arabic) article

in "algebra." Similarly, the -s in "Sierra Madres" is added to an English

name, not to a Spanish word. (I never can remember how the Turks want us

to spell the name of their country -- so much for their attempt to be a major

power!)           DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:36:46 -0600

From:  "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT,

     SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY"  DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



The practice of a female child being named junior though, never common, is not

recent.

Even in the fifties there was an adult woman in San Antonio, Don True Acres,

Jr., who was named after her mother. The father was named Roy. Also, the poet

Nikki Giovanni, is a junior. I cannot remember what the original name was that

she shares with her mother.



Dick Heaberlin

Southwest Texas State University

DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 14:44:17 -0600

From:  "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT,

     SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY"  DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU 

Subject: Re: "little" and "jr"



In our student union building there are three sizes of coffee cups--all huge,

more fitting for soft drinks. The largest is called medium. The middle size is

called small, and the smallest is called junior. Why would anyone devise such a

strange system? Is junior commonly thought of as smaller than small?

Dick Heaberlin

Southwest Texas State University

DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]swt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:32:43 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



At this point, I don't even remember what the suggested change

was--it probably had to do with verbing nouns, or something. I

was reacting mostly to the tone, with its implication not merely

that we copyeditors can influence the prose people see, but that

we somehow have the right and ability to hold a meeting, decide

what the usage should be, and enforce that.





Vicki Rosenzweig

Associate Editor, Computing Reviews

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

1-212-626-0666



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 16:00:42 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Looking for some useful arguments



Since this discussion seems to have revived, maybe it's not too late after

all for a question I was wanting to ask Donald Lance (or any Romanists

out there).



The etymology of "Ozarks" is indeed fascinating.



In modern French, of course, there would be no final [s] in the

pronunciation of "aux arcs." I don't know enough about the history of

French to know whether the [-s] was still there in the late 1600s. The

borrowing into English as "Ozarks" would itself be evidence of the final

[s] in the source language if the possibility could be ruled out that the

[-s] was added later as an English plural suffix. If final [s]

was already lost in late 1600s French, then the word would have been

borrowed as "Ozark" rather than "Ozarks". So - could somebody tell me

whether there is other evidence showing whether or not final [s] persisted

in French into the late 1600s?



Thanks.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR





On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  The issue of "Ozarks" is more complex than Peter McGraw's response implies.

  As well as we can determine, the word came from French explorers in

  the late 1600s who wrote "aux arcs" on maps to indicate where the Arcansa

  Indians lived and hunted. Liaison in French phonology would yield a

  pronunciation of this abbreviation that would sound very much like "Ozarks,"*

  which was the early English spelling. So "Ozark" is more like a folk

  back-formation used in attributive positions where the "plural" ending

  is not common in American English -- i.e., Ozark Mountains. All the toponyms

  on official maps have "Ozark" in attributive position, as do business names

  in the area. However, in recent decades, the -s form has come into use in

  attributive position (Ozarks Conservation District, etc.). (*The final -s

  in French is a further complication in the story.) Further, McGraw's

  question about "Applachains Mountains" etc. points out that the anti-Ozark

  copy-editors aren't so smart after all, though they may be following a local

  trend. Every now and then I try to steer my mind toward this question but

  haven't done systematic study. In British nomenclature we get "trades unions"

  but "trade unions" in American English. I think the attributive -s form in

  similar compounds is on the rise in American English, and the anti-Ozark

  editors may be reflecting that trend. It's this latter trend that I haven't

  done anything systematic on. How widespread/sporadic is the trend?

                                DMLance

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Mar 1995 23:50:06 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



(In re Donald Lance's recent post:) so the bar named "The La Petite"

in Springfield, Mo., during the 1960's did not contain two articles,

after

all?



Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Mar 1995 to 3 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 312 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. DARE Queries

 2. the Ozarks and other plurals (2)

 3. Ozark(s) and other plural(s)

 4. second cousins (4)

 5. r-ful vs r-less aux arcs/Ozarks



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 01:05:23 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: DARE Queries



I have just this week read belatedly NADS, and so therefore my reply

to a query about an item for DARE may be redundant. (I finally

figured out what all the little stuff was about--in my family we have

a similar pattern of use. I have an uncle Jerry, who named his first son

also Jerry. All along the son was called Little Jerry, but only as a

form of reference, not address. As he has grown up and, by the by,

become an excellent graphic artist, the little appellation in reference

to him has been dropped, but on occasion, this change has resulted in

ambiguity of reference in conversation.)



The editors of DARE find only one (if I remember correctly, sitting

here at my terminal at one in the morning as I take a break from entering

LANCS data (at least the Kentucky part) into the database I am creating)

reference to a "loose meat sandwich." What is a "loose meat sandwich"?

I don't know. But I would suggest asking ROSEANNE or the writers of the

show. For Roseanne, and her compatriots, opened a loose meat sandwich

shop last season, or the one before. As this show has an Iowa base

(does this hold after the Arnold's divorce--what happened to their

restaurant?), the idea for this sandwich may be Midwestern. But

where does Iowa fit, dialectally?



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)































OA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 09:27:06 +0000

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



In British usage this is an option: we don't always use plural forms.

There's another difference



The government, -who- -have- decided: talking about the people

The government, -which- -has- decided: as an entity



Other combinations woyld be ungrammatical



Maik Gibson



On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



  My impression about English usage (based upon living in London for

  a year in 1970-71) is that corporate entities always take the

  plural verb form. So I heard "Harrods ARE having a sale" and

  "Selfridges ARE open from ..." (all apostrophes delibertely

  omitted). Etc.

 

  Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 09:32:44 +0000

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



It seems to me that people think that Britain (*have) has only plural

forms for collective entities, because one only tends to notice how

people speak when they speak differently: hence hypercorrection, which is

what would happen if many on the list tried to sound British!



Countries don't generally have plurals in the UK: the US is an exception: I

heard that it only became singular in the States after the Civil War.



Maik Gibson



On Fri, 3 Mar 1995, Cathy C. Bodin wrote:



  The etymology that Donald Lance provided for "the Ozarks" is fascinating

  and raises the example of British plurals, such as "trades unions" vs.

  "trade unions" [Amer. usage].

      On a related head, could I ask for comment on these British

  plurals? How does "their" figuration of collectives differ from ours?

  They say that the United States "are" doing such-and-such in the news

  and that British Oil "have" announced such-and-such. Does anyone know

  if a Trades Union X or a Trade Union X "has" or "have" been considered

  as a plural traditionally in Britain?          --Cathy Bodin

 

 

 

  On Tue, 28 Feb 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:

 

    The issue of "Ozarks" is more complex than Peter McGraw's response implies.

    As well as we can determine, the word came from French explorers in

    the late 1600s who wrote "aux arcs" on maps to indicate where the Arcansa

    Indians lived and hunted. Liaison in French phonology would yield a

    pronunciation of this abbreviation that would sound very much like

 "Ozarks,"*

    which was the early English spelling. So "Ozark" is more like a folk

    back-formation used in attributive positions where the "plural" ending

    is not common in American English -- i.e., Ozark Mountains. All the

 toponyms

    on official maps have "Ozark" in attributive position, as do business names

    in the area. However, in recent decades, the -s form has come into use in

    attributive position (Ozarks Conservation District, etc.). (*The final -s

    in French is a further complication in the story.) Further, McGraw's

    question about "Applachains Mountains" etc. points out that the anti-Ozark

    copy-editors aren't so smart after all, though they may be following a local

    trend. Every now and then I try to steer my mind toward this question but

    haven't done systematic study. In British nomenclature we get "trades

 unions"

    but "trade unions" in American English. I think the attributive -s form in

    similar compounds is on the rise in American English, and the anti-Ozark

    editors may be reflecting that trend. It's this latter trend that I haven't

    done anything systematic on. How widespread/sporadic is the trend?

                                  DMLance

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 08:29:12 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



Just to correct some impressions created by the comments on Turkey and

Turkish:



The Republic of Turkey (just recently born after the dissolution of the

Ottoman Empire) reformed many social institutions--politial, economic

and linguistic--and did so consciously in a desire to "turn West," not

to become a "great power" but in the belief that these institutions

were preferable to what they had before and where their past had taken

them. As with so many countries' histories, they had a leader with a

vision of a different future, and Ataturk saw the future in the West.



Turkey Romanized the orthography of Turkish because the Arabic script

that the Ottoman theocracy had enforced on the language was a bad fit; was

well beyond merely not phonetic and well into ambiguous. The new

representation of the language, togther with a descriptive grammar

presented by professional linguists, made wide-spread literacy practicable.



Perhaps an issue about the spelling of the name of the country is

something I missed. It's Turkey, isn't it? The only difficulty I ever

heard the Turks having with the name, in English speaking countries,

is that it harkens to the name of a bird they find rather stupid; in

Turkish, the bird is called "hindi," and so made someone else's problem.



Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 14:09:45 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: second cousins



    Can anyone define "second cousins?"

    Is it right to say that your first cousin is your parent's

niece or nephew and that your first cousin once removed is your

parent's first cousin (one generation removed from you)?

    Does a second cousin once removed exist? Twice removed?

                            Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 14:15:39 -0500

From:  Abigail Sarah Margulies  asm16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU 

Subject: Re: second cousins



On Sat, 4 Mar 1995, Cathy C. Bodin wrote:



      Can anyone define "second cousins?"

      Is it right to say that your first cousin is your parent's

  niece or nephew and that your first cousin once removed is your

  parent's first cousin (one generation removed from you)?

      Does a second cousin once removed exist? Twice removed?

                              Cathy Bodin

 

 



Sure. My mother's second cousin, Kenny, is my second cousin once removed.

My mother's grandmother and Kenny's grandmother were sisters.



If Kenny is alive when I have children, he will be their second cousin

twice removed.



Abbie



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 13:19:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: second cousins



      Can anyone define "second cousins?"



Your children would be the second cousins of your first cousin's children.



      Is it right to say that your first cousin is your parent's

  niece or nephew and that your first cousin once removed is your

  parent's first cousin (one generation removed from you)?



Yes.



      Does a second cousin once removed exist? Twice removed?



Yes. A second cousin once removed would be your parent's second cousin.

A second cousin twice removed would be your grandparent's second cousin.



Having said all that, let me caution you not to believe its accuracy unless

somebody else confirms it. I have almost no cousins (no first cousins at

all) and am not into this stuff as much as other people probably are.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 13:43:34 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: r-ful vs r-less aux arcs/Ozarks



Peter McGraw wrote:

 The etymology of "Ozarks" is indeed fascinating.

 In modern French, of course, there would be no final [s] in the

 pronunciation of "aux arcs." I don't know enough about the history of

 French to know whether the [-s] was still there in the late 1600s. The

 borrowing into English as "Ozarks" would itself be evidence of the final

 [s] in the source language if the possibility could be ruled out that the

 [-s] was added later as an English plural suffix. If final [s]

 was already lost in late 1600s French, then the word would have been

 borrowed as "Ozark" rather than "Ozarks". So - could somebody tell me

 whether there is other evidence showing whether or not final [s] persisted

 in French into the late 1600s?



And D.M. Lance wrote earlier:

  As well as we can determine, the word came from French explorers in

  the late 1600s who wrote "aux arcs" on maps to indicate where the Arcansa

  Indians lived and hunted. Liaison in French phonology would yield a

  pronunciation of this abbreviation that would sound very much like "Ozarks,"*

  which was the early English spelling.





Concerning the effacement of word-final -s with no vowel following, it was the

leader in the parade of final consonant loss in French and took place, for

the most part, during the Middle French period. But phrase-final, the -s might

be retained until a later period. Thus, in 1531, we have the

following testimony (cited by M. Pope, _From Latin to Modern French_, p.220):

`At the end of a word we only write but do not pronounce _s_ or other

consonants fully, except when a vowel follows or it be at the end of a phrase;

thus we write _les femmes sont bonnes_ but we pronounce _les_ with a sound

cut off, _femme_ without _s_, _son_ without _t_, _bones_.'



However, it remains to be determined whether the final -s was perceived to be

a plural or part of a proper name. In Cajun French, for example, where -s is

systematically absent in plurals, the city of Opelousas retains not only

its final -s but also its introductory plural article. Thus _les Opelousas_

Olezap[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lusasE and _aux Opelousas_ Oozap[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lusasE. Depending on how the name

was perceived by individuals, there may have been some variation.

And written records by the French of Southeastern explorations show that

native American groups were sometimes pluralized without benefit of final

-s, thus the presence of an -s might be construed by some to be part of the

name (cf. " ... les Accanca nous dirent de demeurer, parce qu'il y avait ici

une nation de leurs allie's nomme's les Taensa." Minet, 1685). But this is

pure speculation on my part, and arguing against it is the fact that s-ful

_aux arcs_ creates a highly unusual syllable coda for French: OrksE.

Furthermore, the written records also show that the use of abbreviation for

native American names, along with -s plural marking of the abbreviation, was

current elsewhere: les Tchikachas `Chickasaw'   les Tchis (Marianne Bienvenu,

1743).



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Mar 1995 18:20:49 -0800

From:  Arnold Zwicky  zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: second cousins



your nth cousin shares (n x grand) parents with you: you and your first

cousins share a pair of grandparents, you and your second cousins

share a pair of greatgrandparents ["great" and "grand" are

allomorphs], etc.



your nth cousin k times removed is k generations off your generation,

either above or below. my first cousins once removed are my

first cousins' children and my parents' first cousins. my

first cousins twice removed are my first cousins' grandchildren

and my grandparents' first cousins. my second cousins once

removed are my second cousins' children and my parents' second

cousins. etc.



arnold



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1995 to 4 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 271 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Iowa dialects and loose meat (2)

 2. subject blooper (7)

 3. DARE Queries

 4. second cousins

 5. barbecue and pig-pickin's

 6. LANGUAGE e-mail

 7. Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 06:33:06 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Iowa dialects and loose meat



North of a Dubuque-Waterloo-Sioux City line (roughly Highway 20) is

northern and sooth of it is north midland except for the triangle of

Dubuque-Cedar rapids/Iowa City-Davenport, which is historically northern.

Many folk along the southern border counties do have the pin/pen

neutralization.



Loosemeat sandwiches are called either 'sloppy joes' or 'maidrites', the

latter a trade name of a chain of diners. I have casually observed this

sandwich since I was a lad in the '30's in Omaha nebraska. Only

Woolworths sold them and only at the root beer counter. They later

graduated to Sunday night church suppers for teenagers, then in peoples

home for large groups of teenagers, and finally as a home staple.

Sometimes to meat is seasoned with a catsup like mixture. I don't know

where the sanwich originated.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 08:07:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Iowa dialects and loose meat



Loose meat sandwiches (and 'Maidrites) were unknown by those terms in the

Louisville area in the 40's and 50's. When I visited Southern Illinois

(regularly) as a boy and young man, I ate 'Maidrites' (never loose meat

sandwiches) in the area around Christopher, Benton, West City, etc...

In Louisville these were 'sloppy joes' and were made with a variety of

catsup-flavored sauces and ground beef.

Imagine my horror to discover that these abominations were called Bar-B-Cue

(or whatever spelling you like) sandwiches in Madison when I moved there to do

my Ph.D. work in the early 60's. I have encountered this sad use of the term

Bar-B-Cue in lots of northern areas (Chicago, Milwaukee, Buffalo, Detroit),

although, of course, never in African-American communities, where the term

Bar-B-Cue is reserved for the sense of slow-cooked meat. (I assume the use of

northern Bar-B-Cue to simply mean 'grill' is already well-known to readers of

this list. It has even permeated the New South, where I was invited to a

Bar-B-Cue recently and found only grilled items, although the sense of the

term for 'event' rather than foodstuffs has always been a little confusing.

Interestingly enough, these regional differences are not recorded in DARE,

although I reckon the files up in false barbecue land have some info.)

Dennis (clearly the [dInIs] Dennis) Preston

 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu  changing (sadly) to

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 10:20:56 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: subject blooper



When my last posting on aux arcs/Ozark(s) went through, I was embarrassed

to discover that I had substituted r for s in the subject header. It should

have been: "s-ful vs. s-less aux arcs/Ozark(s)." Most everyone probably

figured this out right away, but for the sake of the archives, when

something like this happens, is there any easy way to rectify it? I guess

this was a pretty radical case of intrusive r, or maybe rhotacism, or

maybe I'm just an r-head.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 11:21:49 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



  figured this out right away, but for the sake of the archives, when

  something like this happens, is there any easy way to rectify it? I guess



I could go in and edit it for you, but then your follow-up posting wouldn't

make sense. I could, of course, delete it, but then I'd also have to delete

the one I'm writing now. Probably it's better just to leave things as they

are unless the r-fulness really bothers you.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:01:03 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



On a lighter note, one might say that the r substitution is

a rhotacism characteristic of Verner's Law.



I, too, had a question about whether the {s} in {aux arcs} would

be pronounced, based on my rudimentary knowledge of French.



I can see how the spelling Ozarks Mountains can be legitimized as

a pseudo-learned spelling to reflect etymology. And Don Lance attests

to this spelling as perhaps a change in progress.



My question is, has this change in spelling resulted in a change

in pronunciation? Do people say [ozarks mauntnz]? In the names of

businesses that use this spelling, does the way people say the name

reflect the spelling?



Terry





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:16:03 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson  ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries



In response to another query in the NADS (are you getting all these

messages out there in DARE-land?), I've never heard the word 'key' for

maple and similar seeds. We called them as children 'whirlybirds' and I

guess I would still call them that today, if pressed for a term.

So-called because when you drop one from as high as you can reach, it

spins around like the propeller of a helicopter.



Ellen Johnson ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:29:44 -0500

From:  John J Staczek  CAMJON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



read



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:00:49 CST

From:  Barbara Need  barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: second cousins



This discussion makes the THIRD set of definitions I have seen for

cousin terms.



1) This seems the best known, where second cousins are the children

of your first cousins AND IT IS RECIPROCAL (That is, you are their

second cousin).



2) The one mentioned so far on the net, where nth cousins are

n-times from the common ancestor (children of first cousins

are second cousins, children of second cousins are third cousins,

etc.) and removal comes into play when the number of generations

from the common ancestor is not eaqual for the two parties involved

(so your parents first cousins and your first cousins children are

your first cousins once removed). THIS IS ALSO RECIPROCAL.



3) The one I use, WHICH IS NOT RECIPROCAL. In (2) the determining

factor for the value of n is the generation number of the shorter

line of descent (in such a system, it is possible to have a second

cousin once removed who is of an older generation than the ego,

the person who the relationship is being decribed for). In the system

I am familiar with, the value of n is based on the generation

number of ego, and the value of y in y times removed is based on the

number of generations up or down. I once referred to my second

cousins once removed and was asked in which direction. For me, there

is only one direction: the children of my second cousins. The other

direction would result in my aunts and uncles. My parents second

cousins are my third cousins once removed. HOWEVER, I am their second

cousin once removed



[I am sorry, in the above discussion, I meant to say FIRST cousin,

I have only one sort of first cousin once removed: Kyle, Logan and

Bill. the sons of the my first cousins and a girl child (whose name

I have forgotten), the daughter of a first cousin.]



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:08:17 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



I guess there's no point in editing out the blooper. It might set a bad

precedent and cause you a lot of extra trouble, Natalie. But thanks for

replying and thinking about it.



Mike Picone



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 15:17:47 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: barbecue and pig-pickin's



Dennis Preston brings up the term "barbecue" in a discussion of

"loose meat" and "maidrite" sandwiches.

    Is the term "pig pickin'" used outside North Carolina for a

barbecue, in the sense of a social event featuring a barbecue meal?

                            Cathy Bodin



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 14:52:40 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: LANGUAGE e-mail



Does anyone have the e-mail address for LANGUAGE? I can't find their

letterhead.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:03:47 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



On the spelling of 'Turkey' the country. I've read recently that some

prefer a spelling with a -ije (I just can't remember the exact form)

(Turkije, I think) in large part because that spelling would reflect

their own pronunciation of the name. In my earlier posting I should have

referred to Ataturk's (and Turkish linguists') preference for Western

tradtions rather than to power. At the time of the Olympics (I think

that's when it was) there were ads on tv networks advertizing a Turkish

bank. The ad used the Turkish spelling, and there was a brief discussion

of the name in TIME Magazine. The shift to Western ways was, of course,

related to power. Any discussion of power-plays in that part of the

world can quickly drift off into the rough waters off Cyprus and the

craggy mountains of the Kurdish homeland.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:26:40 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



How much of the future "history of the language" will derive from

typos rather than language change? (Not a serious comment, but not

not serious either.)        DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Mar 1995 18:30:11 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



Yes, people do say the -s in "Ozarks" when it's part of a name. I've

heard it. But I haven't had an opportunity to determine whether the

name-correctors have "incorrected" the names of the geographical features.

"The Ozarks" is really a plateau rather than a range of mountains, though

there are some very steep slopes in the Ozarks where some geological

uplifting and subsequent erosion have made the terrain what it now is.



A question that I posed but has not been addressed by others is whether

some of the early maps could reflect archaisms in the dialects of the

cartographers. My knowledge of French phonological history (with

diachronic variation) is virtually nil, so I wouldn't feel comfortable

even specuating about particulars. Mike Picone's reference to the

practice of adding a "plural" -s to abbreviations of the names of tribes/

nations/groups of people is much appreciated, supporting my (implicit if

not stated) point that the -s in "Ozarks" is not simply a matter of a plural

marker. How would one know whether a mapmaker of yore was adding an -s

because he said it or because he was following a standard orthographic

practice? As Picone's examples show, some orthograpic practices reflect

grammar as well as phonology.     DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1995 to 5 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 21 messages totalling 412 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. AWFUL OFFAL (10)

 2. MLA call for papers

 3. ADS/SAMLA Call for papers

 4. barbecue and pig-pickin's

 5. Iowa dialects and loose meat (3)

 6. Ozark(s) and other plural(s)

 7. subject blooper (2)

 8. Turkey's name

 9. DARE Queries



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 01:34:36 CST

From:  "Krahn, Al"  AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU 

Subject: AWFUL OFFAL



I was browsing a book for reading teachers the other day and it

contained a list of homophones. Among them was the set of words

"awful" and "offal."



I was just wondering if these are homophones for anyone else

besides the folks in Englewood Cliffs NJ.



The thought of these being homophones to me is just awful.



AKRA



Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Div. of Liberal Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 05:21:00 EDT

From:  "David A. Johns"  DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



# I was browsing a book for reading teachers the other day and it

# contained a list of homophones. Among them was the set of words

# "awful" and "offal."

#

# I was just wondering if these are homophones for anyone else

# besides the folks in Englewood Cliffs NJ.

#

# The thought of these being homophones to me is just awful.



They're homophones for me (grew up in western Massachusetts). Both

have [O].



In fact, all the words spelled with _off_ have [O] rather than [a]:

_off_, _office_, _offense_ (sports), _offer_, etc. I only get [af] in

words with foreign spelling, like _mafia_ or in abbreviations like

_prof_.



David Johns



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:37:43 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



 I was browsing a book for reading teachers the other day and it

 contained a list of homophones. Among them was the set of words

 "awful" and "offal."

They're homophonous for me--a speaker from the Boston area. They

have a low back rounded vowel.



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:50:09 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



These are homonyms for me, too, a native Milwaukeean. I suspect that

they might be homophones for lots of people, those affected by the _cot_

/ _caught_ merger. I don't have the merged vowels generally, but my

_off-_ words have the open o vowel as in _law_.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:47:38 -0500

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: MLA call for papers



 MLA DIVISION OF LANGUAGE AND SOCIETY



 If you are a member of MLA (or if you will be a member by April 1) and

would like to give a paper at the annual meeting in Chicago (Dec. 27-30,

1995) in the Language and Society session, please send an abstract to

Connie Eble by Monday, April 3. According to MLA regulations, "members

may participate as speakers or respondents in only one session." You

may, however, chair one session and give a paper in one session.

 If you would like to be considered for the program, send an abstract or

a description of your paper to Connie Eble by

  email  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu



  fax   919-962-3520



  snail mail   Connie Eble

          English Department, CB#3520

          University of North Carolina

          Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3520



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:55:20 -0500

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: ADS/SAMLA Call for papers



The South Atlantic Modern Language Association (SAMLA) will meet at the

Marriott Marquis in Atlanta November 3-5. To present a paper in the ADS

section, you must be a member of both SAMLA and ADS. You may present one

paper only.



May 1 is the deadline for submitting abstracts. Send abstracts to



  Connie Eble

  English Department, CB#3520

  University of North Carolina

  Chapel Hill, NC 27599-3520



  email: cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu



  fax: 919-962-3520



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:15:46 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: barbecue and pig-pickin's



 Dennis Preston brings up the term "barbecue" in a discussion of

 "loose meat" and "maidrite" sandwiches.

     Is the term "pig pickin'" used outside North Carolina for a

 barbecue, in the sense of a social event featuring a barbecue meal?

                             Cathy Bodin



I've heard it in Milledgeville, GA, but I am not sure of where the people

who used it came from.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:17:36 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



Out of curiosity I consulted several dictionaries to see how 'offal' is

listed. Most listed two pronunciations for 'offal', one with "short o" sound

[a] and one with the "aw" sound. A couple of 1950s dictionaries used the

vowel sound in 'order' for this word and for 'awful'. All gave entries

that would indicate homophony for at least some speakers.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:22:31 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



I only know what I learned in the school, but it seems to me that

professors who've ventured to say OFFAL in class rhymed the first syllable

with OAF. This is the ignorant pronunciation I use while teaching about

Dante's Thais, who is covered in AWFUL OFFAL for flattery as a courtesan.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 10:34:42 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Iowa dialects and loose meat



While we're on the subject of loose meats and loose cannons (or canons), I'm curious about

the geographical distribution of what we here in Indiana refer to as a "breaded tenderloin"

sandwich. Outside of Indiana, I have rarely found it designated that way--I spent most of my

six years living in West Virginia (in the early '60s) thinking you couldn't get them there,

only to discover that they were called "pork fritters" there!

Where, I wonder, is the geographical boundary line between breaded tenderloins and pork

fritters. Are there still other names for this wonderful sandwich, which, in Indiana, can

often cover an entire, full-sized plate (add a little ketchup, a few pickles, and you are in,

shall we say, "hog heaven."

                jmiller

                franklin college (ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:00:50 -0800

From:  Arnold Zwicky  zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



they will also be homophonous for the many millions of

american speakers (including most of my undergraduate

students at ohio state and most young people out here

on the left coast) who have [a] in DAWN/DON, HAWK/HOCK,

SHAW/SHAH, etc.



arnold



(whose DARE is in ohio, but who thinks that the pronunciation

guide in volume 1 describes this merger in some detail)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 11:43:51 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Iowa dialects and loose meat



I've missed some of the discussion, so I apologize if this is a repeat.



On one of the Roseanne segments, Roseanne's sister returns from a trip

to Iowa, around Dubuque I think, and raves about a place that makes

loose meat sandwiches, something unheard of in Roseanne's Illinois town.

And on a later segment, Roseanne, the sister, and Dan go to the Iowa

diner to try to figure out the recipe so that they can open a loose meat

diner of their own in Illinois.



I mention this because I am from Iowa, and never heard of loose meat.

I assumed it was a joke made up for the show. I'm cIA and ceIA. I've

checked with folks in csIA, and they don't know it.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 08:59:28 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ozark(s) and other plural(s)



The Turkish spelling is "Tu(umlaut)rkiye." "J" is used in Turkish only in

foreign words to represent the sound of French "j" etc. like the Turkish

word "jo(umlaut)n" = French "jeune". The sound of the English "j" is

represented by "C,c"

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Sun, 5 Mar 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  On the spelling of 'Turkey' the country. I've read recently that some

  prefer a spelling with a -ije (I just can't remember the exact form)

  (Turkije, I think) in large part because that spelling would reflect

  their own pronunciation of the name. In my earlier posting I should have

  referred to Ataturk's (and Turkish linguists') preference for Western

  tradtions rather than to power. At the time of the Olympics (I think

  that's when it was) there were ads on tv networks advertizing a Turkish

  bank. The ad used the Turkish spelling, and there was a brief discussion

  of the name in TIME Magazine. The shift to Western ways was, of course,

  related to power. Any discussion of power-plays in that part of the

  world can quickly drift off into the rough waters off Cyprus and the

  craggy mountains of the Kurdish homeland.    DMLance

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 11:18:50 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: subject blooper



 How much of the future "history of the language" will derive from

 typos rather than language change? (Not a serious comment, but not

 not serious either.)        DMLance



If it was based on my writing, alot. (sic)

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:59:22 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Turkey's name



I don't know why an "-ije" spelling of Turkey's name would better reflect

the way it's either spelled or pronounced in Turkish.



In Turkish, the name of the country is Turkiye (the u is "noktali," i.e.,

with umlauts and is pronounced as is the French u in "vu"). Aside

from the u, an English speaker would pronounce the name of the country

phonetically as it's spelled in Turkish and it would sound, more or less,

as it does when pronounced by a speaker of Turkish.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 12:53:30 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE Queries



Thanks to all who have responded to NADS queries. We appreciate the

interest and the help.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 13:27:01 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Iowa dialects and loose meat



In Columbia, Missouri, one sees both 'pork fritter' and 'pork tenderloin'

But Missouri is a "border state" (Confederacy/Union-wise), and the NM/SM

division courses through the state. Also 'breaded tenderloin' and the

emptor must recall that pig meat is inside the breading.  DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 09:29:35 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



According to my Webster's NW, even though the same lex symbols are used for

both words, one word has the 'F' sound pronounced with the first syllable,

of-l, and the other word has the 'F' in with the second syllable, o-f'l.



Does this still make the words homophones?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:48:35 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



They are not homophones for me -- but then neither are cot/caught and

Don/Dawn (which are for my students: everytime I call on Dawn, Don

answers.)



Bethany Dumas, who grew up in Texas, trekked on up to Arkansas, then wandered am

  ong Missouri, Louisiana, London and Arkansas for awhile.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 19:59:29 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: subject blooper



 

   How much of the future "history of the language" will derive from

   typos rather than language change? (Not a serious comment, but not

   not serious either.)        DMLance

 

  If it was based on my writing, alot. (sic)

  Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

 



Certainly one might prefer,



"Should it happen to be based..." or

"If it were to be based..."



'If it was based,' much has already been lost.



Or was that the point?



Terry Irons





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Mar 1995 17:21:36 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



On Mon, 6 Mar 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  Out of curiosity I consulted several dictionaries to see how 'offal' is

  listed. Most listed two pronunciations for 'offal', one with "short o" sound

  [a] and one with the "aw" sound. A couple of 1950s dictionaries used the

  vowel sound in 'order' for this word and for 'awful'. All gave entries

  that would indicate homophony for at least some speakers.   DMLance

 



I'm sure I've heard "orful" from hyperubanized 1950s speakers :-)

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1995 to 6 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 34 messages totalling 746 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. dare queries--maple seeds (3)

 2. offal and pork tenderloin (2)

 3. AWFUL OFFAL (2)

 4. Re; British Plurals

 5. loose meats, etc.

 6. lowback merger

 7. Loose Meat and Meat Skin (2)

 8. Correction: Loose Meat and Meat Skin

 9. subject blooper

 10. Loose meats, etc.

 11. barbecue vs. sloppy joe (3)

 12. loose meat and vegans (3)

 13. the Ozarks and other plurals

 14. VBE and 60 Minutes (5)

 15. sloppy Joes are alive and well in Utah (2)

 16. dare queries--maple seeds

 17. Iowa dialects and loose meat

 18. vegetarian sloppy Joes

 19. Conferencia Linguistica

 20. DARE queries--maple seeds



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: dare queries--maple seeds



i've been kinda out-of-it, and just got my issue of NADS, so excuse

me if anyone else brought this up.



the DARE queries asks for other terms for maple seeds (they have

'key'). we always called them "helicopters" in the finger lakes

region of new york (1970s-1980s). this is obviously because when the

seeds fall off the trees, they whirl about with the 'wings' acting

like helicopter rotors.



(the other thing we'd always do is split the seed-pod part open and

stick them on our noses, since the insides are sticky. we looked

like idiots, but i don't think there was a name for the practice.)



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 06:54:35 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: offal and pork tenderloin



I don't neutralize cot/caught but 'awful' and 'offal' are homophonous for

me and most North Midlanders.

Around here, one just asks for a 'tenderloin sandwich'.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:22:45 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



On Mon, 6 Mar 1995, Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO wrote:



  According to my Webster's NW, even though the same lex symbols are used

for

  both words, one word has the 'F' sound pronounced with the first

syllable,

  of-l, and the other word has the 'F' in with the second

syllable, o-f'l.

 

  Does this still make the words homophones?     -- Jim

 



I can say from experience that syllable division in dictionary

pronunciations is not the most reliable indicator of homophony. The kind

of variation noted here, essentially a contrast between "syllabic l" and a

syllable represented with an unstressed vowel and final l, while certainly

distinguishable and capable of marking contrasts, is very often optional.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:24:49 +0000

From:  "dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]popserver.essex.ac.uk..."  dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK 

Subject: Re; British Plurals



I think Brits would have plural verbs forms for any country which had a

plural in its name: so, the United States, the Phillipines; the Seychelles;

the Maldives; the United Arab Emirates and the Federated States of

Micronesia HAVE not HAS been amassing THEIR troops ready for an invasion (or

whatever).



'Trades Union' sounds posh to me - my students and I all agree that Trade

Union is far more normal.



As for whether a trade union is followed by a plural or not - well, I dug

out an example from last weekend's Times Higher Education Supplement:



'Lecturers' union Natfhe has been scathing about franchises'



That was the only one I could find, but related: 'The T(ransport

and)G(eneral)W(orkers')U(nion) said they had consulted their members' (this

example was from a different newspaper).



Intuitively however my students felt that unions could be followed, in

speech, by either a singular or a plural verb form.



What, by the way, is 'loosemeat'?!



Dave Britain

Dept of Language and Linguistics

Essex University

Colchester CO4 3SQ

UK



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 07:57:00 CST

From:  Bob Bowman  Bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACT-11-PO.ACT.ORG 

Subject: loose meats, etc.



 In northwest Iowa (around Sioux City), loose meat sandwiches were common;

 but, to add another mystery, they were also known as "taverns." Perhaps

 because such sandwiches were served in taverns, but that's only a guess.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:05:41 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: lowback merger



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 07-Mar-1995 10:05am EST



   To: \emote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: lowback merger





Coming from LI I naturally differentiate low-to-mid back round awful from low

central-to-back offal. All of my Ohio students' autos, however, are named Otto.

 I long believed this homophony (to my ear) was the famed merger. Some

students, however, maintained they could discriminate the two and, in fact, used

different phonetic symbols for them [not always the appropriate ones, but

different ones]. Now, after reading Labor's "3 Dialects of English" and

purchasing his Linguistic Principles of Sound Change:Internal Factors, I believe

my students were right. Some of my Ohioans have merged vowels, but others with

Northern Cities Sound Shift have a low central-to-front unr vowel for offal and

a short low back vowel for awful (sometimes flat, sometimes round, but always

clipped). According to Labov, this is part of the chain shift initiated by the

tensing and raising of ae, which doesn't take place in the merger dialect.



Now the interesting part: in more formal styles and when self-monitoring the

preferred vowel is unround. I always wondered if this shift was a movement away

from the rounded AW vowel. In Labov's scheme the tensing and raising of ae

leaves a gap which the unround offal vowel attempts to fill (giving the fronted

vowel of dollar and color), followed by the lowering and centralizing of the

vowel of awful. My interest lies in whether the subjective response of dialect

speakers shouldn't be paramount in deciding whether a vowel is merged or not.

(I remember the joke about the northern teacher responding to a pupils request

for the spelling of rat; when told r-a-t the pupil responds, not mouse-y rat. .

.but "right now." Surely we wouldn't say the teacher's confusion in this

anecdote is paramount in deciding whether the vowels are merged or not. In my

own mostly r-less dialect dock=dark and god=guarded, but only the second pair

"feels" merged to me: in the first there's a backing of the r-less dark.)



Comments welcome.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "between the Midwest and

Appalachia"









   cc: James Coady             ( COADY )



Received: 07-Mar-1995 10:05am



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:31:43 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: dare queries--maple seeds



Helicopters. I'd forgotten about that, but we used it when I was

growing up in Queens (New York City) in the late 1960s and early

1970s.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:09:39 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Loose Meat and Meat Skin



Everytime I read the term "loose meat" on my screen, I get sick to/on my

stomach. While I'm feeling queasy, I'm wondering about a term I have seen

in the title of a folksong. What, pray tell, does Sal have in the song

"Sal's Gotta Meat Skin"? And why is anyone singing about it?



Nearly veegun (is that how you spell it?),





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:16:27 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Correction: Loose Meat and Meat Skin



 Everytime I read the term "loose meat" on my screen, I get sick to/on my

 stomach. While I'm feeling queasy, I'm wondering about a term I have seen

 in the title of a folksong. What, pray tell, does Sal have in the song

 "Sal's Got a Meat Skin"? And why is anyone singing about it?

 

 Nearly veegun (is that how you spell it?),

 

 

 Wayne Glowka

 Professor of English

 Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

 Georgia College

 Milledgeville, GA 31061

 912-453-4222

 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:44:13 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: subject blooper



  

    How much of the future "history of the language" will derive from

    typos rather than language change? (Not a serious comment, but not

    not serious either.)        DMLance

  

   If it was based on my writing, alot. (sic)

   Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

  

 

 Certainly one might prefer,

 

 "Should it happen to be based..." or

 "If it were to be based..."

 

 'If it was based,' much has already been lost.

 

 Or was that the point?

 

 Terry Irons

 

 

 --

 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

 Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

 Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

 Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



I guess it's the point that's been lost. Or should it be if I were to have

guessed?



BTW, I don't think the shriveling of the subjunctive were to have much to

do with writing, might in not be the case?



D

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 08:36:39 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



"Offal" and "awful" are not homophonous for me, though the difference is

in the syllable division rather than the vowel quality. As a result of

juncture placement, the otherwise identical low back rounded vowel is

lengthenable in "awful" but not in "offal". In contrast, "caught/cot" and

"dawn/don" are distinguished by different vowels (low back rounded vs.

low mid unrounded in both cases). I was born in Cleveland, Ohio, but grew

up in Oklahoma, California and Oregon. One parent is from Iowa and the

other from Texas and Oklahoma.



Peter McGraw



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 12:07:55 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: offal and pork tenderloin



I'm curious, when one orders a "pork tenderloin" there, does it come breaded or grilled? Here,

in Indiana, you have to differentiate.



                    jmiller

                    franklin college (ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:21:04 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: dare queries--maple seeds



I seem to remember calling them _whriligigs_ as a kid in the Chicago

area. Did somebody already mention this?



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:03:03 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Loose meats, etc.



May I restore a thread that I hoped might be starting but seems to have

been dropped?



So far everyone seems to agree that "sloppy Joe" refers to a sandwich

made with ground beef in a chili-like sauce. (In my experience, always

between hamburger buns.) This is also what I have found associated with

the word everywhere east of the Mississippi.



When I was growing up, however, there was a restaurant in Salem, Oregon,

that called itself "Oregon's Home of Sloppy Joe," whose specialty was a

very large sandwich made with many layers of thinly sliced ham and Swiss

cheese on rye, I think with thousand island dressing.



I don't remember running across any sandwich called a "sloppy Joe"

anywhere else in Oregon or in the West, for that matter, though I wasn't

particularly looking for one. Has anybody else run into other regional

variations on this item (if indeed that's what this was)?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 11:29:32 CST

From:  MikePicone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: barbecue vs. sloppy joe



The barbecue sandwiches that I am now priviged to eat here in the Deep

South, shredded pork or beef covered with sauce, are a real treat and

a far cry from the ground-hamburger-in-tomato-sauce sloppy joe sandwiches

that they would stick in my throat as kid growing up in Chicago. I do

recall, vaguely, sloppy joe referred to as barbecue, but, in my memory

at least, sloppy joe was the preferred term then (50's & 60's).



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 09:56:56 -0800

From:  bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU

Subject: loose meat and vegans



On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



   Everytime I read the term "loose meat" on my screen, I get sick to/on my

   stomach. While I'm feeling queasy, I'm wondering about a term I have seen

   in the title of a folksong. What, pray tell, does Sal have in the song

   "Sal's Got a Meat Skin"? And why is anyone singing about it?

   

   Nearly veegun (is that how you spell it?),

   



I've been getting a bit nauseous myself. I can't elucidate what

Sal has, but I can give you the spelling of vegan. Your spelling

reflects the correct pronunciation, [vig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n]; I can't tell you how many

times I've been called a [veg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n] or, worse, a [vEj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n].



(By the way, for those who don't know what this is about, a vegan is

someone who eats no animal products.)



Mary Bucholtz



Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 10:47:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



An Irish colleague tells me that the British use of "their" instead of

"it" to modify collective nouns is just a matter of how people think.

In the British world, a company or a nation is thought of as

comprising people--therefore the plural. In the U.S., we sometimes

think of a company as a, well, corporate unit, hence an "it."



"Trades unions," my friend reports, are in the British world unions that comprise many trades. A "trade union" would be a union for one

trade. Usage I guess has a lot to do with counting, a mathematical

approach to grammar.



Leonard Schiefer

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine



lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:44:24 -0500

From:  John J Staczek  CAMJON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: barbecue vs. sloppy joe



The sloppy joes in Toledo, Ohio were ground beef, tomato sauce, green

pepper, onions, and spices usually served on plain, not seeded,

hamburger buns (not rolls), as I still recall them.

John Staczek

Dept of Linguistics

Georgetown University



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:05:43 -0500

From:  Mark S Kuhn  mskuhn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOPPER.UNH.EDU 

Subject: Re: VBE and 60 Minutes



    I would appreciate a response to this inquiry. This past Sunday,

60 Minutes, the TV news program, contained a piece on Vernacular Black

English and educational efforts that address VBE. While the segment

contained a range of provocative perspectives on VBE, one person

interviewed in the segment made a claim I had not heard or read before.

Norma LaMoyne (sic?), an educator, claims that the simplification of

consonant clusters such as "tests" to "tes" by VBE speakers is a direct

influence of a Nigerian tribal language. Students in my class who had

seen the program asked me about the claim, since I had mentioned the

example as one which is an example of pressures toward "naturalness" (an

example from Wolfram's Dialects...text) in some vernacular speech. VBE

is not my area, so I would appreciate feedback from you all.



    Mark Kuhn

    Communication Department

    University of New Hampshire



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:31:47 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: VBE and 60 Minutes



Assignment of final cluster reduction to Nigerian influence has not been

a prominent part of the debates about VBE. Then again, I am underwhelmed

by "naturalness" as an explanation also (then why do we have *any*

clusters left?). Neither of these possible explanations says why

clusters tend to be reduced in some varieties and styles but not others.

If I remember right, final cluster reduction was one of the features

(along with -g dropping, and several others) that Jack Chambers claimed,

in an NWAV plenary address in Ottawa, to appear very widely in English

"vernaculars", wherever and whatever the vernacular (VBE, Canadian

farmers, etc.). If not "naturalness", then perhaps there is still

some process, or group of processes, that might be identified as belonging

to a vernacular variety or style to match the appearance of similar

surface realizations held in common by many actual vernacular

varieties/styles.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 13:21:50 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: sloppy Joes are alive and well in Utah



 So far everyone seems to agree that "sloppy Joe" refers to a sandwich

 made with ground beef in a chili-like sauce. (In my experience, always

 between hamburger buns.)

 ...

 I don't remember running across any sandwich called a "sloppy Joe"

 anywhere else in Oregon or in the West, for that matter....



That's what they've always been called here, and the definition's the

same. They're quite common, in my experience, and I've never heard any

other term used for them except "sloppy Joe."



--Bruce Gelder

Salt Lake City, UT

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:55:03 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: barbecue vs. sloppy joe



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



My wife's from Dayton OH and for her loose meat = cold cuts (ham, bologna &c)

and not barbecue at all.

BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDUAthens OH "between Appalachia and the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:02:14 -0800

From:  Scott Schwenter  schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: sloppy Joes are alive and well in Utah



I remember commercials for Manwich, a sloppy Joe mix that you just added

ground beef to: "A sandwich is a sandwich but a Manwich is a meal"

(interesting gender issues here too). Is Manwich used as a generic term for

sloppy Joes anywhere?



Scott Schwenter

Stanford Univ.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 16:59:49 -0600

From:  Cukor-Avila Patricia  pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOVE.ACS.UNT.EDU 

Subject: Re: VBE and 60 Minutes



Forget whatever you heard on 60 minutes. Stick to Wolfram.



Patricia Cukor-Avila

pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jove.unt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:16:43 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene  mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: VBE and 60 Minutes



In Message Tue, 7 Mar 1995 14:05:43 -0500,

 Mark S Kuhn  mskuhn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hopper.unh.edu  writes:



 Norma LaMoyne (sic?), an educator, claims that the simplification of

 consonant clusters such as "tests" to "tes" by VBE speakers is a direct

 influence of a Nigerian tribal language.

  I was startled by the claim, mostly by the assurance projected by the

author of the claim. It is true that sevral African languages lack word-final

consonant clusters; and those that allow word-final closed syllables allow

typically (some) nasals and liquids (some Africanist should double-check

this claim!). It is also likely that several of these languages would have

favored cluster simplification in the development of AAVE and English

creoles. However, I doubt that this was the exclusive factor in this

development (which I do not consider categorical anyway). The claim on the

60-Minutes segment amused me more because of the specific reference to

Nigeria. This is not without antecedent, however. You may want to check the

chapters by Charles DeBose and Nicholas Faraclas and by Selase Williams in

AFRICANISMS IN AFRO-AMERICAN LANGUAGE VARIETIES, ed. by Salikoko Mufwene

(1993), U. of Georgia Press.

I hope this short intervention helps.

Sali.

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 15:49:17 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: dare queries--maple seeds



That's what we called them in Portland (OR)

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Tue, 7 Mar 1995, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:



  Helicopters. I'd forgotten about that, but we used it when I was

  growing up in Queens (New York City) in the late 1960s and early

  1970s.

 

  Vicki Rosenzweig

  vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

  New York, NY

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:07:14 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: loose meat and vegans



In reference to the term "meat skin" I don't know what it means in the song

about Sal, but one of my favorite examples of namecalling appeared in one of

Zora Neale Hurston's works (I believe *Mules and Men*). One character called

another "a li'l narrer [narrow] contracted piece of meatskin." I took the

description to refer to a worthless skinny woman. I've come across meatskin in

some of Hurston's other works and it seems to imply that the person is waste of

skin.



BBHudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:10:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Loose Meat and Meat Skin



How could Wayne Glowka fail to use the clearly standard sick AT my stomach in

his list of alternatives!

Dennis Preston

 preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 19:18:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: VBE and 60 Minutes



I am puzzled why naturalness is not a good argument for the reduction of

consonant clusters. The suggestion that there would be none left simply

ignores another natural process - the formation of clusters (from, for

example, the loss of reduced and/or unstressed vowels). That natural

processes might counteract one another seems to be fairly well-established,

historically and in current micro-variation studies.

Dennis Preston  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 17:53:24 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Iowa dialects and loose meat



okay, I'm reaching back into the late sixties, I believe, on a trip to

Iowa to meet my new wife's grandparents. I was introduced, while there,

to a chain, I believe, that all the family local and distant knew about,

that specialized in tenderloin pork steaks in a bun. I know it wasn't

called loose meat sandwiches, but it might have been MadeRights, but

I couldn't swear to that either. I know that as a Californian it was

an entirely new term to me. Davenport IA, I believe. Actually, I could

solve this problem with a phone call to my ex-wife, but ...

                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 20:17:09 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: vegetarian sloppy Joes



The Wedge co-op grocery in south Minneapolis (Minnesota, not the one in

Kansas...) sometimes offers sloppy Robin sandwiches -- tofu and textured

protein instead of meat.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 21:45:35 -0500

From:  Alberto Rey  alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU 

Subject: Conferencia Linguistica



        SPECIAL CALL FOR PAPERS ON HISPANIC LINGUISTICS



                45th ANNUAL

          MOUNTAIN INTERSTATE FOREIGN LANGUAGE

                CONFERENCE



        RADFORD UNIVERSITY, Radford, Virginia



This annual conference on foreign languages and literatures is soliciting

abstracts in any area of Hispanic Linguistics for a number of special

sessions in this area of study. Papers may be written in Spanish or

English; however, they are limited to no more than 20 minutes ( 9-10

double-spaced pages). Anyone interested in reading a paper should submit

an original one-page abstract and two copies, accompanied by a

self-addressed envelope and unattached stamps. PAPERS IN ABSENTIA WILL

NOT BE READ.



For further information and abstract submission please contact:



Professor Alberto Rey

Department of Modern Languages and Literatures

Howard University

Washington, D.C.  20059

OFFICE:(202) 806-6758      FAX:(202) 806-4562

email: alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cldc.howard.edu





------------------ABSTRACT DEADLINE: MAY 10, 1995-----------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 23:07:20 -0500

From:  Francine Frank  FWF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET 

Subject: DARE queries--maple seeds



I've been hunting in my memory for what we called maple seeds back in

the Bronx in the 1930s--we used to open them an put them on our noses too.

I'm not sure, but I thin it was pol(l)y noses or could it have been

pol(l)wogs? Is there anybody else around from that time and place?



Francine Frank

fwf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax.albany.edu

University at Albany, SUNY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Mar 1995 23:14:51 EST

From:  Dean  DMELLOW[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: loose meat and vegans



No, I don't think so.

In my dialect, we say - not in a million years.

Certain things about dialects are interesting. Not this though.

JDM



On Tue, 07 Mar 95 21:12:03 EST Janet M. Fuller said:

 Doncha wish you was a dialectologist? -jmf

 

 ----------------------------Original message----------------------------

 In reference to the term "meat skin" I don't know what it means in the song

 about Sal, but one of my favorite examples of namecalling appeared in one of

 Zora Neale Hurston's works (I believe *Mules and Men*). One character called

 another "a li'l narrer [narrow] contracted piece of meatskin." I took the

 description to refer to a worthless skinny woman. I've come across meatskin in

 some of Hurston's other works and it seems to imply that the person is waste of

 skin.

 

 BBHudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1995 to 7 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 292 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. DARE queries--maple seeds (3)

 2. Loose Meat and Meat Skin

 3. Naturalness

 4.  No subject given 

 5. Re[2]: barbecue and pig-pickin's

 6. tenderloin sandwiches and loose meat

 7. loose meat and vegans

 8. oops

 9. Has Went Down (2)

 10. the Ozarks and other plurals

 11. maple seeds



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 07:54:34 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: DARE queries--maple seeds



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Polywogs it is--for the maple seeds you stuck on your nose. . . at least on LI

in the 40's but my sister (b. 1949) called them something else. Polywogs are

what my grandfather (b. 1885 Brooklyn) called tadpoles, but he came from a New

Englanf family.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU  aTHENS oHIO



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 07:54:51 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Loose Meat and Meat Skin



 How could Wayne Glowka fail to use the clearly standard sick AT my stomach in

 his list of alternatives!

 Dennis Preston



Obviously a lapse of a post-lapserian mind.



Please stop this thread on loose meat! The term sounds too close to my

mother's locution "loose bowels"! The Manwich commercial makes me sicker

than Mister Food.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 08:39:32 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Naturalness



Dennis Preston asks what I have against naturalness. I wear ties; Dinnis

does not. Ties are natural for me; they are not for Dinnis. I don't

understand why Dinnis should be allowed to tell me whether ties are

natural or not; I also don't understand why I should be allowed to tell

Dinnis that "Dinnis" is unnatural and that "Dennis" is the natural thing:).



If naturalness is taken to mean "less energy in articulation", then

people should *say* "less energy in articulation", because some speech

sounds seem perfectly natural for their speakers and at the same time

require lots of energy in articulation.



The general problem with explanations for change like "naturalness" or

"analogy" (I could make an argument similar to ties and T-shirts for

that one, too) is that they are too powerful. I don't think we gain much

by saying, "Hey, that pronunciation seems more natural to me" or "Hey,

that form looks like the other ones in a paradigm". I would rather try

to find explanations for change that were better at predicting (even ex

post facto) why some eligible forms change and some don't.



I find this a fascinating point for discussion, especially since I've

been doing Labov's new book on change and Milroy's *Linguistic Variation

and Change* with my variation classes this quarter.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 08:47:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



is anyone familiar with the expression 'piss-sop?' It appears

in Wright's Native Son in the context: I never want to give orders

to a piss-sop like you. Is this regional? Characteristic of BVE?

Other?

Please reply directly rather than to the list



Edward Callary

TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 10:12:35 EST

From:  "C. Leslie Carpenter"  lesc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCSUMTER.USCSU.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: Re[2]: barbecue and pig-pickin's



     In response to Cathy Bodin's inquiry, the term "pig pickin'"

     also is used widely (perhaps generically) in South Carolina

     for a barbecue. I also have heard the term used in the two

     communities of Columbus, Indiana, and Marion, Ohio.

     Les Carpenter

     University of South Carolina at Sumter

     lesc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uscsumter.uscsu.scarolina.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Re: barbecue and pig-pickin's

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at SMTPLINK-SUMTER

Date:  3/6/95 12:53 PM





 Dennis Preston brings up the term "barbecue" in a discussion of

 "loose meat" and "maidrite" sandwiches.

     Is the term "pig pickin'" used outside North Carolina for a

 barbecue, in the sense of a social event featuring a barbecue meal?

                             Cathy Bodin



I've heard it in Milledgeville, GA, but I am not sure of where the people

who used it came from.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 08:54:48 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: tenderloin sandwiches and loose meat



Yes, here in Iowa, tenderloins are always breaded.

the spelling is Maid-Rite named after the chain of diners.

Just found out that 'tavern' for loose-meat sandwqiches occurs in Western

Iowa

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:43:05 EST

From:  "Janet M. Fuller"  JMCFULL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: loose meat and vegans



News break, Columbia, South Carolina: A piece of loose

meat was seen walking down the street, mumbling to herself

in a dialect thought to carry features of a general drumstick

dialect, but actually having its origins in early

Scotch-Irish shank which immigrated to the South Atlantic

states in the form of a red-haired prostitute...

The relative markedness of this phenomena is thought

to contribute to the late acquisition of carnivore

behavior among mammalian NP referents.



This came to me in a dream.



Do you think I can get a discharge from academia on the

grounds of insanity?



Scary thought: I am almost finished writing my paper for

791, and it sounds a lot like the above.



     see ya, jmf



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 11:59:25 EST

From:  "Janet M. Fuller"  JMCFULL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: oops



I have been enjoying(while at the same time,

like other non-meat-eaters, getting rather sick

to my stomach) the loose meat discussion so muhc

I had to share it with a proverbial Friend Not

On the List, and after he replied I tried to

send him another message, and well, you

saw what happened.



We're having wild time down hereaat USC.

Sorry to clutter your mailboxes with it, though.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:18:20 -0500

From:  Allan Denchfield  dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM 

Subject: Has Went Down



Heard on national news last night a police officer ironically from Harvard

(a town somewhere in the Midwest?) use the expression "has went down" for

"has gone down". Anyone catch that usage, or heard it elsewhere?



- Allan (there are SO many)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:35:56 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: DARE queries--maple seeds



I grew up in Reno, Nevada and when I was growing up we called maple seeds

helicopters as did my wife who grew up in Portland, Oregon and southern

Washington State.



We both remember referring to baby frogs as either tadpoles or pollywogs

interchangeably, although we both

feel tadpole was the term we learned in school.





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 12:55:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: Re: the Ozarks and other plurals



A tangent: Why are sharpening stones quarried in the state of Arkansas

called Ar-KANSAS stones (pronounced like the state of Kansas) instead of ARKANSAS stones (pronounced like the state of the same spelling)?



Leonard Schiefer

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine



lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 14:57:50 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Has Went Down



(0n the officer who 'has went down' in Harvard--)

I heard and noticed that too. It was supposed to be a small town 30 miles

north of Chicago. Presumably the form would never have passed muster in the

OTHER Harvard. (The interview was on last night's CBS News.)

On the other topics, I've heard both 'helicopter' and 'whirlygig' for maple

seeds in the New York and Connecticut areas. And both 'pollywog' and 'tadpole'

--curiously, if I'm not mistaken, the two are distinguished in one context:

the Y's swimming program for kids has various proficiency ranks, with 'polly-

wogs' graduating to 'tadpoles'. I may not have that right, though.

                     Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:22:07 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: DARE queries--maple seeds



  Polywogs it is--for the maple seeds you stuck on your nose. . . at

least on LI

  in the 40's but my sister (b. 1949) called them something else.

Polywogs are

  what my grandfather (b. 1885 Brooklyn) called tadpoles, but he came

from a New

  Englanf family.

 

  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU  aTHENS oHIO

 



Polywogs in my neighborhood (Cleveland, 1960s) were, and remain, the

form of the maturing frog between tadpole and full frogdom, i.e.,

when they have legs and look almost like an adult, but still have the

tail. We used to catch them all the time, take them home in buckets.



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:02:59 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: maple seeds



Regarding Leo Horishny's message on maple seeds, I spent years 2-8 in

Minneapolis, MN and thereafter in Portland, OR. I always heard and used

"helicopter" used for "maple seed" in both places.



Jeff Allen



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1995 to 8 Mar 1995

**********************************************







There are 15 messages totalling 367 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Salty dog? (3)

 2. DARE queries--maple seeds

 3. Arkansas Tangent

 4. suite /sut/ (8)

 5. "Most importantly" (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 00:18:17 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Salty dog?



I also have a query about the words of a song.

What does "salty dog" mean in the following?



Salty Dog Rag (1960's or earlier?)



Salty dog, salty dog,

I wanna be your salty dog,

Honey, let me be your salty dog.



If I can't be your salty dog

I won't be your man at all,

Honey, let me be your salty dog.





Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:38:37 +0000

From:  "dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]popserver.essex.ac.uk..."  dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: DARE queries--maple seeds



When I was a boy in East Anglia, 'helicopter' was the name given to a

sycamore seed...



Dave B



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:08:10 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



 I also have a query about the words of a song.

 What does "salty dog" mean in the following?

 

 Salty Dog Rag (1960's or earlier?)

 

 Salty dog, salty dog,

 I wanna be your salty dog,

 Honey, let me be your salty dog.

 

 If I can't be your salty dog

 I won't be your man at all,

 Honey, let me be your salty dog.

 

 

 Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics



I believe that I have this song on a recording by Charlie Poole in the

early thirties, but I would have to do some serious closet digging to find

it. Having performed this song on numerous occasions, I have always had a

sense that I was singing something slightly obscene, especially in view of

this verse:



Two old maids sittin' in the sand,

Each one wishin' that the other was a man,

Honey, let me be your salty dog.



The argument of this verse could get a suitor in some trouble, I'd say.



I wonder if this dog is related to the dog of--is it--"Matchbox Blues"(?):



Let me be your little dog,

Till your big dog comes.

Etc.



Or--



You aint' nothing but a hound dog

Etc.



What about Snoop Doggy-dog--is that his name? There is a chopped truck in

town with a front plate that says "Doggy Style"--why would anyone put that

on the front of a truck and ride around town in it in public view?



You could probably go crazy trying to figure out what song lyrics (and

license plates) mean: "Someone left the cake out in the rain/I don't think

that I can take it/Cause it took so long to bake it/And I'll never have

that recipe again--Oh, no!" Yes, oh, no.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 08:26:31 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Arkansas Tangent



In response to Leonard Schiefer's tangent: My grandmother, who lived most

of her life in Oklahoma, pronounced the Arkansas River as "Ar-KANSAS,"

and when I asked why, explained that it was because it flowed between

Arkansas and Kansas. Many years later a fellow grad student, who hailed

from Ft. Smith, Arkansas, insisted that the river was pronounced just like

the state, and said he also didn't recall hearing any other pronunciation

on radio stations based in nearby Oklahoma. Does anyone have any light to

shed on this?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:55:00 CST

From:  Tom Murray  TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



Does anyone have any data, formal or informal, on *suite* pronounced /sut/, as

in "My parents just bought a new bedroom /sut/"? It occurs more frequently tha

n you might think, and not just among speakers with relatively low levels of ed

ucation. (My mother-in-law, for example, who has a Master's Degree and many ye

ars of experience both in public education and in business, regularly uses the

pronunciation, as does my wife, an attorney.) Beth Simon and I are collecting

attestations, and would appreciate any help that readers of this list can provi

de.

                  --Tom Murray (TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:52:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: "Most importantly"



Can someone explain the use of "most importantly." In the New York Times

this morning, March 9, 1995, the lede story, "House passes bill that would

limit suits of investors," contains the following sentence:



"Most importantly, the bill raises the threshold needed to prove fraud."



I read and hear the adverb used incessantly. The adjective, "most important,"

is correct because the adverb would modify the verb, "raises." However, that

would change the emphasis of the sentence.



A friend offers the following explanation. In both the adjectival and adverbial cases, the modifier is implied in the sentence. For "most important," the

implied noun is "fact," as in "The most important fact is that the bill

raises . . ." For "most importantly," the implied verb is "does," as in "The

bill does most importantly raise . . ."



I suppose the same argument would apply to "firstly," "secondly," "thirdly" for "first," "second," "third."



Any thoughts?



Leonard Schiefer

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine



lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:28:06 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



My high school educated parents from Weimar, Texas, bought a said /sut/ in

the late 1950's. A uselessly educated person myself, I don't ever remember

anyone calling such a collection of movables a /swit/ except in

coversations about how some people say /swit/.



Now a /swit/ of rooms or a /swit/ of cards--that's a different question.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:00:14 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: "Most importantly"



It's a common variant, or rather probably the most common. See the

discussion in Webster's Dictionary of English Usage.



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 13:35:57 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



 Does anyone have any data, formal or informal, on *suite* pronounced /sut/, as

 in "My parents just bought a new bedroom /sut/"?



I've never heard it pronounced any other way. I just asked a colleague if

she had ever heard any other pronunciation of it, and she said "only on tv."

Since I almost never watch tv, I've missed this pronunciation. Neither my

colleague nor I can remember ever having heard a real live human being

pronounce it [swit].



          It occurs more frequently than

  you might think, and not just among speakers with relatively low levels of ed

  ucation. (My mother-in-law, for example, who has a Master's Degree



I don't know whether I've heard the word used by people with less than a

college education. I know that my parents both said [sut], BS '31, BA, '35

and that all the friends I've ever heard use it say [sut]. Since I live in

a small town dominated by a university, almost all of my friends have PhDs.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:31:58 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



During the years I lived in Raleigh, NC I don't remember anyone on tv

or local born who didn't say "bedroom /sut/" and I never heard /swit/

at all. It certainly didn't seemed marked in any way, certainly not

for education or lack of it. I took it to be the standard there, at

least at that time (1973-74).

Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:21:58 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



My wife grew up in Jacksonville Fla. and her parents both said /sut/.

Neither attended college. June never heard /swit/ until she was older

and saw it in print.



Sorry I didn't think of this before, Tom.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:20:09 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Tom Murray wrote:



  Does anyone have any data, formal or informal, on *suite* pronounced /sut/, as

  in "My parents just bought a new bedroom /sut/"? It occurs more frequently tha

  n you might think, and not just among speakers with relatively low levels of ed

  ucation. (My mother-in-law, for example, who has a Master's Degree and many ye

  ars of experience both in public education and in business, regularly uses the

  pronunciation, as does my wife, an attorney.) Beth Simon and I are collecting

  attestations, and would appreciate any help that readers of this list can provi

  de.

                   --Tom Murray (TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU)

 



How are you defining "attestations"? Complete with speaker name and

date, or more loosely defined?



I first encountered this pronunciation when we were buying a house in

Chattanooga, TN, in 1970, then learned that it was the universal

pronunciation there. A fellow graduate student at the U. of Wisconsin from

Arkansas, when I repeated it to him, told me that anyone in Arkansas who

said [swi:t] for 'suite' would be perceived as putting on airs.



Not long after that, to my surprise I heard my great aunt use the [su:t]

pronunciation. She had no higher education but was well read and came

from a family that considered itself "refined." Her speech

(phonologically, at least) was northern, though she lived most of her life

in Oklahoma (mother born in Illinois, father born in England).



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 19:35:30 -0500

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



Three informants from Washington give /sut/ . That's out of 51 informants in

the Pacific Northwest field records.



David Carlson

Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 22:26:59 LCL

From:  Michael Elkins  MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



On 3/9/95 Wayles Brown wrote:



 I also have a query about the words of a song.

 What does "salty dog" mean in the following?

 

 Salty Dog Rag (1960's or earlier?)

 

 Salty dog, salty dog,

 I wanna be your salty dog,

 Honey, let me be your salty dog.

 

 If I can't be your salty dog

 I won't be your man at all,

 Honey, let me be your salty dog.





From my college days in central Texas, I remember a cocktail called a

Status: R



salty dog--a derivative of another cocktail called a greyhound (vodka

and grapefruit juice, I believe). A salty dog was a greyhound served in

a glass with a salted rim.



Since I love my margaritas served in a salted glass so that I can lick

off the salt as I drink, I can imagine a salty-dog drinker doing the

same.



The lyrics could be a metaphor for sexual licking. (And I don't feel

obscene.)



Michael W. Elkins

Managing Editor

The Advocate



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:11:02 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



on "suite" as /sut/: in the '70s a local furniture store [there are no longer

any in town] advertised bedroom suits on the radio. At the time I cautioned

students who jerred by refering them to the dictionary which gave it as an

alternate pronunciation for suite when referring to furniture. Let's not be too

quick to jeer!

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "between the Midwest and Appalachia"PF



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1995 to 9 Mar 1995

**********************************************





There are 19 messages totalling 356 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Bedroom /sut/s

 2. Salty dog?

 3. Ar-Kansas (3)

 4. suite /sut/ (4)

 5. helicopter seeds (2)

 6. Heli(o)copter

 7. Loose meat and Maderights

 8. List Archives

 9. Arkansas Tangent

 10. Expletive origin (2)

 11. /sut/

 12. suite/suit



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:21:33 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Bedroom /sut/s



The question about (bedroom) /sut/s brought back a flash...I grew up in New

York, and the pronunciation was totally unfamiliar to me, until I moved to

Gainesville, FL, where it was the standard, at least in TV commercials. It

used to drive me nuts. I mean, dialect variation is, as some of our students

up here say, tres cool. But...I suspect that for all of us there are some

forms or expressions that have that effect on us. Or maybe it was just the

north Florida local tv commercials...No more. I associate suite=/sut/ with

north Florida, and don't recall it from Texas (Austin).



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 11:17:06 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



re: Salty dog



I have an idea that many references to "dog" in blues and other kinds of rock

song refers to sexual terms ,and salty dog seems to be a pretty

graphic description of one of them. I say this because I've heard lines similar

to the ones quoted by Wayne Glowka (two old maids...) in a particularly raunchy

song called "Stoop down Baby" in which the singer is trying to figure out a

puzzling piece of anatomy on a female companion. I think also there are

definite sexual connotations in such songs as "Dogging Around," "Hound Dog" and

"Doing the Dog" (which was our version of the forbidden dance of the sixties)



bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Mar 1995 23:06:56 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Ar-Kansas



Leonard Schiefer asks:

  A tangent: Why are sharpening stones quarried in the state of Arkansas

  called Ar-KANSAS stones (pronounced like the state of Kansas) instead

  of ARKANSAS stones (pronounced like the state of the same spelling)?



The name of the state hasn't always been consistently pronounced. I read

somewhere (probably in NAMES ON THE LAND) that the state's first Senators

disagreed, and the President of the Senate distinguished them as "the

gentleman from ARkansaa" and "the gentleman from arKANsass"!



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 01:58:49 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



Bedroom suite was a /sut/ in our family language. I vaguely recall some

discussion of the two pronunciations when we acquired a hand-me-down

bedroom suite from some neighbors who could afford new furniture but

we couldn't. My own interpretation was that /swit/ referred to a group

of rooms, not to a group of items of furniture. I was in high school at

the time (1940s). I think it was our neighbors (who had more money)

who said /swit/, so I assumed that there was a socio-economic factor

involved, but that the high-falutin pronunciation was a hypercorrection

because these particular family friends didn't have a whole lot more than

we did. This was in Texas (families with South Midland backgrounds that

went through southern Arkansas to Texas, i.e., both our family and

our friends). The female in this family also said 'modren' (this latter

datum provided for those of you on ads-l who followed that train of

speculation some time ago on the list).   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:27:45 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: helicopter seeds



Dave Britain writes:

  When I was a boy in East Anglia, 'helicopter' was the name given to a

  sycamore seed...



Where I grew up, sycamore seeds (or seed pods, rather) look nothing

like helicopters. That's a dialect difference and then some!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 18:13:42 GMT

From:  "Warren A. Brewer"  NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET 

Subject: Heli(o)copter



Maryland 1950s: Helicopter  [HELL-uh-...]  (the flying machine)

         Heliocopter [HEEL-lee-uh...] (the maple seed)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 00:31:28 CST

From:  "Krahn, Al"  AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU 

Subject: Loose meat and Maderights



My wife, who is the authority on such things, says she ate at a

MadeRight (or is it MaidRight or whatever?) in Mason City, Iowa

about three years ago so they are still around. She couldn't

elaborate on what it consisted of, however. The place was around

South Federal at 14th. Maybe somebody over there is awake and

can go over and see what they are serving.



Loose meat: The only loose meat we have in Milwaukee is around

our belt lines from eating all that sausage and drinking all that

beer. Sometimes that loose meat is known as a beer belly. Sloppy

Joes have been around here a long time in the form described by

many so far: ground meat with some kind of tomato sauce on a

hamburger bun.



AKRA



Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Div. of Liberal Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 05:15:36 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: List Archives



In case some of you have gotten into the habit of reading the daily logs

of list mail via ftp, gopher, or www instead of as mail, I should warn you

that the archives won't be up to date most of next week. Today's log

(available tomorrow) will probably be the last one in the archives until

the 19th or 20th (and whether this one shows up depends upon whether my

Alabama connection is working ok tomorrow morning).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 09:12:10 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ar-Kansas



Isn't it the case that the river, throughout its length, is referred to

as the ArKANsas?



RK



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:04:02 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



I don't know any of the background/origins, but I would say that, here in

Indiana, there is no other pronunciation than "sut." I can't recall anyone, of

any educational, social, or economic background, ever using "suite" to refer

to anything other than, perhaps, a musical composition. Even the radio and TV

commercials from furniture stores consistently use "sut." It does seem that,

somewhere in my deep, dark past, probably in another state, I occasionally heard

"suite" in that context, but it has been a very long time. For my own part, I

have given in to the overwhelmingly popular usage, though I mentally cringe when-

ever I do it--but, as they used to say, "When in Rome (City, Ind.), ........"



                jmiller

                franklin college (ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 10:53:35 -0500

From:  Anne McCoy  aam10[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Arkansas Tangent



On Thu, 9 Mar 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



  In response to Leonard Schiefer's tangent: My grandmother, who lived most

  of her life in Oklahoma, pronounced the Arkansas River as "Ar-KANSAS,"

  and when I asked why, explained that it was because it flowed between

  Arkansas and Kansas. Many years later a fellow grad student, who hailed

  from Ft. Smith, Arkansas, insisted that the river was pronounced just like

  the state, and said he also didn't recall hearing any other pronunciation

  on radio stations based in nearby Oklahoma. Does anyone have any light to

  shed on this?

 

  Peter McGraw

  Linfield College

  McMinnville, OR

 

 

 

I grew up in Tulsa, OK, and we always pronounced it like the state name,

not Ar-KANSAS,

Anne McCoy

Columbia U. Press



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 08:22:59 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



Before someone corrects me, may I apologize for the bastardized form I

offered yesterday? Anyone who lives anywhere near Chattanooga will know

that the pronunciation of the vowel in /sut/ (whether 'suite' or 'suit')

there is nothing like [u:].



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:32:02 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Expletive origin



I'm interested in the origin of the expression, "What in the Sam Hill is going

on around here!?"



Just who is Sam Hill and how did he get his own expletive?



I am aware of the use of the term, just curious of the etymology.





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:48:06 -0500

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



My parents consistently say "/sut/." Both were born in a

lower-middle-class section of San Angelo, Texas, in the 1930s, and both

have college degrees.



Having been raised in the suburbs of Boulder, Colorado, I have heard and

said "/swit/" for most of my life. However, here in eastern New Mexico and

west Texas, the only pronunciation of this word in any context (except, as

someone has pointed out, the musical) is "/sut/."



Stewart Allensworth Mason

Student Academic Services

Eastern New Mexico University



=========================

"I'm not above cliches tonight . . ."

            --The Loud Family

=========================



Stewart Allensworth Mason

 masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu 

PO Box 4056

Portales NM 88130



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:14:23 -0500

From:  "J. Russell King"  JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Ar-Kansas



    Isn't it the case that the river, throughout its length, is referred to

as the ArKANsas?



In my experience, the river is generally called the ar-KAN-zuz river in the

state of Kansas, but the AR-kun-saw in Oklahoma and Arkansas. And the small

city in Kansas is ar-KAN-zuz CI-ty.



I don't know that I've ever heard a Coloradoan refer to the river; I believe

that's where it begins. But I've never heard an Oklahoman or Arkansawyer call

it ar-KAN-zuz.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 16:50:52 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: /sut/



I agree with Jerry Miller about "suite" being pronounced as /sut/ in

Indiana. I spent a great deal of time in various furniture stores at the

end of last year. All of the salespeople I dealt with pronounced /sut/

though I normally say /swit/ having been brought up in Oregon where

it is pronounced this way when "suite" means for "suite" meaning bedroom set.



Jeff Allen



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 17:49:22 -0500

From:  Gregory Roberts  robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: helicopter seeds



On Fri, 10 Mar 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:



  Dave Britain writes:

    When I was a boy in East Anglia, 'helicopter' was the name given to a

    sycamore seed...

 

  Where I grew up, sycamore seeds (or seed pods, rather) look nothing

  like helicopters. That's a dialect difference and then some!

 

It is not that the seeds look like helicopters, it is that when they

fall, they spin like a helicopter blade.

-Greg Roberts



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 19:24:27 EST

From:  flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: suite/suit



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 10-Mar-1995 07:24pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu )



  From: Beverly Flanigan              Dept: Linguistics

     FLANIGAN                 Tel No:



Subject: suite/suit





  Instead of cringing or jeering, try using "set" instead of either

  /swit/ or /sut/. Although my Minnesota-born parents said the latter, I

  grew up thinking I _should_ say the former. Now everyone up there

  seems to say "bedroom set"--a nice alternative, I think.



  On "Sam Hill": I recall that my mother said this, but I never heard a

  man say it. Perhaps it was a "lady-like" euphemism for "hell"? But

  where the "Sam" comes from I haven't a clue.

                    Beverly Flanigan

                    Ohio University







Received: 10-Mar-1995 07:24pm



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 13:40:50 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: Expletive origin



  Date sent:   Fri, 10 Mar 1995 13:32:02 -0500

  From:      Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 



  I'm interested in the origin of the expression, "What in the Sam Hill is going

  on around here!?"

 





Sam Hill was a near-rhyming paraphrastic euphemism for hell, I think.



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Mar 1995 to 10 Mar 1995

***********************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 100 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. helicopter seeds

 2. Expletive origin

 3. MaidRites

 4. Salty dog?

 5. mistaken message

 6. suite /sut/



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Mar 1995 22:35:48 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: helicopter seeds



  It is not that the seeds look like helicopters, it is that when they

  fall, they spin like a helicopter blade.



I know that. My point is: where I come from, sycamores ain't maples!

they don't have winged seeds, they have spiky pods.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 08:25:34 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Expletive origin



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Sam Hill? A replacive for HELL pure and simple, like CRIPES for Christ or

"Livefe'c a beach." Sam is problematic, though.



Bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU aTHENS oHIO



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 07:52:45 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: MaidRites



Yes, the MaidRite diners still exist. Their loose meat in a bun has lots

of pepper but no discernable tomato sauce.

Bob Wachal

Iowa City, Iowa



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 14:11:22 -0500

From:  Barbara Abbott  abbott[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



 Welcome back. Hope you have nice tans, some interesting pottery or rugs, and

 a worthwhile inch or two on your waistlines. Do you happen to have any inside

 information or plausible theories on "salty dog" for Wayles Browne & Co.?

 And aren't you impressed that Wayne Glowka (a regular on the ads list) is

 familiar with ol' Charlie Poole? Anyway, "salty dog" strikes me as a more

 worthwhile project than most of what's queried on the net...  L.



Hi. What Glowka says sounds good. I don't know specifically what a salty

dog is -- I just assumed it had something to do with sex. (I do know what

'doggy style' means, but probably so does everybody else. Even Wayles

Brown.)



We had a good trip, but now we're back and there's such a pile of stuff to

do. We're all gearing up for the big Chomsky visit, and here among my pile

of 78 e-mail messages is one from Jim Zacks (organizer) asking if I'll

introduce Chomsky for his linguistics presentation and be the moderator.

Gulp. Any ideas for a clever introduction?



We never got to Santa Fe, after all that. I left a phone message on Ken

and J's phone machine explaining that we'd run out of time. Also he sent

us a list of places to eat in Las Cruces, but they were all closed or

otherwise unfindable. (We wound up at Si Senor -- an o.k. chain.)

Actually all in all the food wasn't any better than we get here at El

Azteco, I didn't think. But it was fun. We brought back a rug for Larry's

son Chris and girlfriend Laura (who incidentally have produced a

granddaughter -- that happened right before we left. I hope this one

doesn't die like the last grandchild did).



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 14:13:43 -0500

From:  Barbara Abbott  abbott[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: mistaken message



Help! I just sent a personal message to this address by mistake. I hope

you can retrieve it and trash it please! Thanks.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Mar 1995 16:11:14 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/



My parents (Fergus Falls MN, Northern Iowa) said 'bedroom /swit/' as did

their friends, most of whom had high school, or less, education.

Northern MMontana to Central Washington State, always /swit/. I remember

the first time I heard /sut/ from some 'country people' who moved into

the neighborhood. I thought at the time it was marked form, though of

course I had no label. I think they were from someplace "way South,"

which to my group meant, perhaps, Oklahoma.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Mar 1995 to 11 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 28 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. mistaken message

 2. Expletive origin



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Mar 1995 08:18:37 EST

From:  Brad Grissom  BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: Re: mistaken message



 Help! I just sent a personal message to this address by mistake. I hope

 you can retrieve it and trash it please! Thanks.



 Sorry, Barbara, it's part of the permanent record. Listowner Natalie

 Maynor, who is surely in Paris by now, has a nifty neologism for this:

 she calls it an 'e-oops'. It's catching on in at least one list, and

 I fully expect to see it enshrined someday in "Among the New Words."



 Brad Grissom



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Mar 1995 09:14:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Expletive origin



Go to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn, and you will find an old (and

apparently famous, at least for railroad buffs) locomotive named the Sam Hill.

I jotted this on an envelope years ago and always meant to check the

connection.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Mar 1995 to 12 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 20 messages totalling 441 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ar-Kansas

 2. Sam Hill (8)

 3. mistaken message

 4. Has Went Down (2)

 5. One Week to December (2)

 6. language and Society course (2)

 7. Expletive origin

 8. Loose meat was in Milwaukee

 9. Salty dog? (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 00:48:59 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Ar-Kansas



Arkansawyers speak of the Arkansaw River, though Arkansans might hesitate.

Kansans refer to the ArKANsas River, as well as to the town of ArKANsas

City KS, of course. Will Clinton change his pronunciation to Dole's?

Marquette started it all by writing "AKANSEA" beside some symbols representing

teepees opposite the mouth of the Arkansas River. This is another case of

the French tendency to add -s when referring to groups of people, the -s

then being retained. An -r- intruded too. Marquette went down the

Mississippi (which he called the Conception) to the mouth of the Arkansas

in 1673. He entered the Mississippi via the Wisconsin R but returned

to Lac des Ilinois (Lake Michigan ) via the Illinois R.  DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 06:35:52 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Sam Hill



For what it's worth, I keep thinking of a song, British I think,

about a cynical and nasty murderer going to be hanged named

Sam Hall. There are several versions. In one the chorus goes:



My name is Samuel Hall. It is Sam Hall. (repeat)

My name it is Sam Hall and I hate you one and all.

You're a bunch of muckers all. God damn your eyes.



I don't when the song or the expression Sam Hill started, but I've

started hearing the song in my head everytime I read a post about

Where in Sam Hill ....



My father used to use the expression. He moderated his language

around children (most of the time).

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 08:17:54 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: mistaken message



 

  Sorry, Barbara, it's part of the permanent record. Listowner Natalie

  Maynor, who is surely in Paris by now, has a nifty neologism for this:

  she calls it an 'e-oops'. It's catching on in at least one list, and



In Paris, but still reading e-mail of course. It was a good e-oops,

Barbara. Don't worry about it. All avid e-mailers commit an e-oops

sooner or later.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 06:28:36 +0800

From:  elliot mcintire  vcgeg002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUEY.CSUN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:



  For what it's worth, I keep thinking of a song, British I think,

  about a cynical and nasty murderer going to be hanged named

  Sam Hall. There are several versions. In one the chorus goes:

 

  My name is Samuel Hall. It is Sam Hall. (repeat)

  My name it is Sam Hall and I hate you one and all.

  You're a bunch of muckers all. God damn your eyes.



Samuel Hall was an organizer/activist for the International Worker's of

the World (IWW)(Wobblies) who was hanged for murder in Utah early in the

century. Most feel that the evidence was very weak.So it's an old American

labor song. BTW, Wallace Stegner did a nice biography of Hall, which is

somewhere on my shelves. If I could located I would be more exact in my

comments.



Elliot McIntire

emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 11:59:19 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



"Sam Hill" was also something I picked up from the kids from Kansas when I

was growing up in San Antonio, Texas. I have always thought the expression

was a taboo deformation of "damn hell."





Does Yosemite Sam ever use "Sam Hill," you rootin', tootin', flea-baggin'

varmint?!





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:34:25 -0500

From:  Mark S Kuhn  mskuhn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHRISTA.UNH.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



Do not confuse Samuel Hall or Sam Hill with the IWW songwriter and organizer

Joe Hill.

Joe Hill was executed in Utah for his organizing efforts on trumped up

charges in 1915 or 1916.



Mark Kuhn

Univ. of New Hampshire



On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, elliot mcintire wrote:



 

  Samuel Hall was an organizer/activist for the International Worker's of

  the World (IWW)(Wobblies) who was hanged for murder in Utah early in the

  century. Most feel that the evidence was very weak.So it's an old American

  labor song. BTW, Wallace Stegner did a nice biography of Hall, which is

  somewhere on my shelves. If I could located I would be more exact in my

  comments.

 

  Elliot McIntire

  emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 14:22:34 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Has Went Down



I've heard "has went" for "has gone" in Western Maryland--specifically

on the part of a Hagerstown man; Hagerstown is located on US Route 40,

"The Old National Pike," an early national road westward-- Cathy Bodin



On Wed, 8 Mar 1995, Allan Denchfield wrote:



  Heard on national news last night a police officer ironically from Harvard

  (a town somewhere in the Midwest?) use the expression "has went down" for

  "has gone down". Anyone catch that usage, or heard it elsewhere?

 

  - Allan (there are SO many)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 13:36:11 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, elliot mcintire wrote:



  On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:

 

    For what it's worth, I keep thinking of a song, British I think,

    about a cynical and nasty murderer going to be hanged named

    Sam Hall. There are several versions. In one the chorus goes:

   

    My name is Samuel Hall. It is Sam Hall. (repeat)

    My name it is Sam Hall and I hate you one and all.

    You're a bunch of muckers all. God damn your eyes.

 

  Samuel Hall was an organizer/activist for the International Worker's of

  the World (IWW)(Wobblies) who was hanged for murder in Utah early in the

  century. Most feel that the evidence was very weak.So it's an old American



I think you're thinking of Joe Hill, the labor organizer who was executed

in Utah over protests from people including President Wilson. Last

telegram: "Don't mourn. Organize." Famous song about him: "I dreamed I

saw Joe Hill last night/alive as he could be" etc.



Anyone have more info on the Sam Hall song, and whether it is in fact

British?



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:39:54 -0800

From:  Arnold Zwicky  zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Has Went Down



surely the coincidence of the past participle and past

tense in many nonstandard varieties of english is well known?

the identity of these forms is the default in standard

varieties (it applies for all regular verbs, as in JUMPED,

and in a fair number of irregular verbs as well, as in

THOUGHT) and has been extended to more verbs in nonstandard

varieties, including some for which only BE distinguishes

the forms.



the extension is usually by spreading the past form - I'VE

RODE THAT HORSE, THE LETTER WAS ALREADY WROTE, THEY HAVE

WENT ALREADY - but for a few verbs by spreading the

past participle form - I DONE IT YESTERDAY, WE SEEN

THEM TOO.



in central ohio, at least, it is easy to find people,

including young people, with the regularization extended

to all verbs but BE. in one of the more entertaining

faculty meetings the ohio state linguistics department

has had in recent years, the college director of computer

services (a man of about 30, in his business suit) explained

the college's plans in his area. he was probably puzzled

at the way we all suddenly evinced interest at odd moments,

and took brief notes then. we were all fascinated by his

past participles!



the teenaged son of one of my osu colleagues used the

regularized forms in conversation, apparently without

exception, but used the standard forms in writing, also

apparently without exception. when questioned, he

explained that it would be just as wrong to *say*

I'VE GONE THERE ALREADY as it would be to *write* I'VE

WENT THERE ALREADY. he didn't understand why everybody

didn't understand that.



arnold zwicky (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 15:50:37 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



Now, I know we don't necessarily want to get into another song lyrics thread,

but the versions I know all go

   I dreamed [or dreamt] I saw Joe Hill last night

   Alive as you or me

     [not: 'Alive as he could be']

   Says I, "But Joe, you're n years dead" [for some monosyllabic value

                        of n; I forget which]

   "I never died", says he.

and so on. I don't know from Sam Hill/Hall,  although the euphemistic origin

(  Damn Hell) sounds plausible. Too bad there's no OED for proper names.

                      Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:04:49 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: One Week to December



Members of the American Dialect Society (and would-be's):

Please keep in mind that you have just a week to meet the deadline for

proposals for our annual meeting in Chicago, December 27-30. From the notice

in the January newsletter, p. 3, you will recall that program chair Walt

Wolfram is planning a special focus on dialect obsolescence; that there will

be a session with the American Name Society, where without having to be

schizophrenic you can present one paper simultaneously to both groups; and

that there will be other sessions suited for any appropriate topic. Also, you

can propose something for our one session with the Modern Language

Association, which will be meeting a few blocks away.

 And then we hope to have a program with the Linguistic Society, January 4-7

in San Diego.

 As it says in the newsletter, you are encouraged to make a proposal even if

you do not have a paper fully developed. You're welcome to send it by e-mail.

Anyhow, just keep in mind that we need it by Monday, March 20.

 Season's greetings - Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:29:47 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



Is there perchance some connection between the Sam Hill of the old bawdy song

and the Wobblies and the "Joe Hill" who is the subject of an old labor organiz-

ing song revived in the '60s by Joan Baez (and sung at the original Woodstock)?

Father/son, perhaps?



                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:49:13 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: language and Society course



Does anyone have text recommendations for a Language and Society course?

Has anyone found one text that covers most of the ground?



Thanks,

beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 16:53:32 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Expletive origin



"I Hear America Talking" by Flexner includes "Sam Hill" in a long list of mild

curses and mincing terms and gives 1839 as its date of introduction in America.

It doesn't explain the origin of the phrase, however, although presumably, Hill

is Hell minced, and perhaps Sam is damned minced? Could happen. (But not nearly

as scintillating as W. C. Fields' classics, "Godfrey Daniel" and "Shivering

Shinola," in my humble opinion!)



                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:23:21 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: One Week to December



1. I have some money. Please bill me for back dues and this year's dues.

Next time around I expect to be able to pay lifetime dues.

2. WHO is organizing the ADS session at LSA 1996?

3. Thanks for staying on top on all this.



Best regards, Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:29:46 CST

From:  "Krahn, Al"  AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU 

Subject: Loose meat was in Milwaukee



On Saturday I was in the same room with someone who grew up in

Cedar Rapids, Iowa and also the daughter of a butcher in Milwaukee

earlier in the century.



Indeed, MaidRites (which seems to be closer to the correct

spelling) were served in Cedar Rapids. They were ground meat on a

bun, pulverized while being cooked, apparently.



The butcher's daughter said that her mother (this must have been in

the 1930s and 40s) made "loose ground meat" or "loose hamburger,"

which was pulverized meat.

------------------

What the Sam Hill?



Wentworth and Flexner, DICT OF AMERICAN SLANG, 1975 (574) says:

 1. Emphatically what? 1954 "What the Sam Hill is eating you?"

W. Henry, DEATH OF A LEGEND, 178.

2. An interj. indicating angry surprise. Colloq. Somewhat archaic.

Prob. a euphem for "what the hell!"



But "What the dickens" is Elizabethan. How did Sam Hill get in there?



AKRA









Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Div. of Liberal Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 21:48:27 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: language and Society course



My students always like Chaika's text. I may try sg. different since

thats gettng old with me.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:50:35 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



I thought you'd want to be kept abreast of these developments. Just think--if

it weren't for me, how would you know how famous you've become?



From:     Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject:   Re: mistaken message

To:      Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET 



 

  Sorry, Barbara, it's part of the permanent record. Listowner Natalie

  Maynor, who is surely in Paris by now, has a nifty neologism for

this:

  she calls it an 'e-oops'. It's catching on in at least one list, and



In Paris, but still reading e-mail of course. It was a good e-oops,

Barbara. Don't worry about it. All avid e-mailers commit an e-oops

sooner or later.

--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



_______________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 22:57:09 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



E-oops. Sorry, everyone. I really do need to check out what's wrong with my

mailer, or at least make sure I'm awake when using it.

Obviously, the previous posting wasn't supposed to go to the list either.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Mar 1995 20:43:34 +0800

From:  elliot mcintire  vcgeg002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUEY.CSUN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Katherine Catmull wrote:

  On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, elliot mcintire wrote:

    On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote:

   

      For what it's worth, I keep thinking of a song, British I think,

      about a cynical and nasty murderer going to be hanged named

      Sam Hall. There are several versions. In one the chorus goes:

     

      My name is Samuel Hall. It is Sam Hall. (repeat)

      My name it is Sam Hall and I hate you one and all.

      You're a bunch of muckers all. God damn your eyes.



[snip]

  I think you're thinking of Joe Hill, the labor organizer who was executed

  in Utah over protests from people including President Wilson. Last

  telegram: "Don't mourn. Organize." Famous song about him: "I dreamed I

  saw Joe Hill last night/alive as he could be" etc.



Your are right, my mind was not working at warp speed this morning when I

originally responded. but I a very glad you included a bit from the song

about Joe Hill, which is REALLY what I had confused in my mind. One thing

about this list, errors get corrected (usually real fast!) Thanks.



Elliot McIntire

emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1995 to 13 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 32 messages totalling 600 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Word-of-the-year (early sweepstakes entry) (3)

 2. Interest in expletives? (3)

 3. language and Society course

 4. helicopter seeds (2)

 5. non-standard past participles (2)

 6. language and society text (3)

 7. Cajun Query (3)

 8. Sam Hill (6)

 9. Sam in 1839

 10. expletive delineated (2)

 11. Expletive origin

 12. "make use of"

 13. AWFUL OFFAL

 14. barbecue and pig-pickin's

 15. Jesus H. Christ

 16. One Week to December



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 00:35:18 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Word-of-the-year (early sweepstakes entry)



Here's my early favorite:  sero-discordant



Context (N. Y. Times article 3/13/95, B1, "Positively Negative"):



 ...There are so many relationships in which one partner is H.I.V.-positive

and one partner H.I.V.-negative that the phenomenon has earned its own

neologism: "sero-discordant" couples.



                     Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 02:33:11 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Interest in expletives?



Well, I didn't expect THIS much interest in swearing from this bunch, but I

love it! ;-)



 I just assumed that Sam Hill was a gussying up of hell not unlike the term

Jeez or cheese and crackers. The English folk song is an intriguing lead, as

is the locomotive (I would call and ask the museum about this, if for no other

reason to listen to the tone of their voice when attempting to answer the

query!), but I can't buy the Joe Hill theory.



 And while we're on this blaspheming kick, (sorry), but what does the H stand

for in the expletive, Jesus H. Christ?



I'll betcha never pondered THAT one did you? :-D



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:21:47 +0000

From:  "dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]popserver.essex.ac.uk..."  dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: language and Society course



How about Janet Holmes' (1992) Introduction to Sociolinguistics. Longman?



Dave Britain

Essex University



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:05:44 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Word-of-the-year (early sweepstakes entry)



I second Larry's nomination of "sero-discordant" as neologism of the

year.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:14:09 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: helicopter seeds



"...a seed pod came spinning down and lit on my shoulder. In college I'd

had a friend from Vermont; she called the two-winged seedpods 'helicopters'."

--Marcia Muller, TILL THE BUTCHERS CUT HIM DOWN, p. 199 (hard bound).





Hey, doesn't anyone call them 'samaras'?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:15:54 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: non-standard past participles



I was surprised to see people putting a regional spin on what are clearly

social dialects.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:22:22 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Word-of-the-year (early sweepstakes entry)



Re sero-discordant



Larry,

    I agree. For an earlier use in a mass circulation newspaper, see

The Village Voice, main article, of four weeks ago. (I don't have the issue

now for reference. It may have been five weeks ago.)



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:37:51 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: language and society text



Take a look at Ralph Fasold's books that came out in the 80s. One is

titled "The sociolinguistics of society" (1984) Basil Blackwell.

The other is entitled "The sociolingustics of language". I can't

remember the exact year, but it was also published through BB.



The interesting thing with these texts is that he wrote them to be

textbooks and actually created a whole series of questions for tests and

quizzes. All you need to do is write to him at Georgetown and ask him

for the Mastery Question diskette for these two books and he will send

the tests to you. He mentioned this set of tests in the introduction of

one of the books.



Also FYI. I have translated these questions into French for a

set of beginning and advanced Sociolinguistics courses that I developed

and taught at the SIL school in France.



I can find Fasold's address at Georgetown Univ. if anyone is

interested.



Jeff Allen

jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:00:05 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: helicopter seeds



 "...a seed pod came spinning down and lit on my shoulder. In college I'd

 had a friend from Vermont; she called the two-winged seedpods 'helicopters'."

 --Marcia Muller, TILL THE BUTCHERS CUT HIM DOWN, p. 199 (hard bound).

 

 

 Hey, doesn't anyone call them 'samaras'?



Once again a reference to Charlie Poole:



And then he rambled, rambled;

He rambled all around,

In and out the town;

And then he rambled, rambled;

He rambled till them butchers cut him down.



Or something like that.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:08:14 +0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Cajun Query



I imagine that somewhere in Cajun territory mass is said in French. Is it

said in something like standard French or in Cajun French? Are leaflet

missalettes printed in standard French and then read aloud in Cajun French

or are the missalettes actually printed in spelling to reflect Cajun

pronunciation? How can I get my hands on one of these missalettes?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 07:28:38 -0800

From:  ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU

Subject: Re: language and society text



I have been using Suzane Romaine's _Language in Society. An

Introduction to Sociolinguistics_ (Oxford U Press 1994) with

good results. It's very readable, low in jargon and has plenty

of examples.



---------------------------------------------------------------

Milton M. Azevedo         Dept of Spanish & Portuguese

Univ of California, Berkeley    Berkeley CA 94720 - USA

E-MAIL: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

---------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:53:23 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



Not really sure about the Sam Hall song--all I remember is that I first heard it

on an album by Oscar Brand many years ago. The album was titled, I think, "Bawdy

Songs and Barroom Ballads," and most of the songs were British in origin.



                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 10:55:11 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



I believe, in the "Joe Hill" song, n = ten (as in, you're ten years dead...)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:02:09 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Interest in expletives?



I can't substatiate this at all, but my guess is that the H in Jesus H. Christ

stands for Holy. I have heard people use the full expletive Jesus Holy Christ,

which prompts my guess on this one.

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:21:16 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Sam in 1839



Flexner probably got his 1839 cite from a work we should keep on our

reference shelves, _A Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles_ by

Mitford M. Mathews (Chicago, 1951), (right next to Craigie's _Dictionary of

American English_).

 The citation is, Havanna (N.Y.) Republican, 21 August 1839: What in sam hill

is that feller ballin' about?

- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:21:12 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: expletive delineated



Leo Horishny asks:

  And while we're on this blaspheming kick, (sorry), but what

  does the H stand for in the expletive, Jesus H. Christ?



Haploid. (with a tip of the hat to Cecil Adams)



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 08:22:44 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Expletive origin



The University of Chicago's Dictionary of American English (U.of Chicago,

1944) gives the citation:

Sam Hill. A euphemism for hell. 1839 Havana (N.Y.) "Republican" 21 Aug. (Th.)

"What in sam hill is that feller ballin' about?" ("sam hill" in lower case

in original)

Allen Maberry

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Jerry (NMN) Miller wrote:



  "I Hear America Talking" by Flexner includes "Sam Hill" in a long list of mild

  curses and mincing terms and gives 1839 as its date of introduction in America.

  It doesn't explain the origin of the phrase, however, although presumably, Hill

  is Hell minced, and perhaps Sam is damned minced? Could happen. (But not nearly

  as scintillating as W. C. Fields' classics, "Godfrey Daniel" and "Shivering

  Shinola," in my humble opinion!)

 

                      jmiller

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:59:05 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: "make use of"



This is a vaguely historical query--when did people starting saying

and (especially) writing "make use of" instead of "use"? If anyone

has any ideas about why this happened, that would be great, but I'm

mostly just wondering about when.



Thanks.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:24:31 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



I'm not a merged speaker for Ah/Oh, but I have the Oh vowel in all the

"off-" words listed last week-- except (sports) "offense" where I can

get both easily. (I'm NY-born, Jamaica-raised, N. Georgia high-school and

college.) I wasn't aware that this was a contradiction-- though I

never thought about it. Is it?

    How Oh-ften has anyone actually heard the word "offal" sopken

in everyday speech? (Me, never-- mine is a reading pronunciation.)

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:28:26 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: barbecue and pig-pickin's



I've been to pig-pickin's, so called, in North Georgia (Maxeys, Union

Point-- now of ill-fame). But not just any barbecue is a pig-pickin':

only the real ones, where you go whole-hog, splitting the hog flat and

cooking it between two grills. Then you pick off bites without burning

your fingers, if possible.

    Apologies to vegans...



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 14:59:36 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



I haven't thought of "Samuel Hall" in years. It was one of my dad's

'daring' songs when we were kids. (He's still alive but doesn't sing

very much, at 87.) The rest of the time he was pretty moderate in

language too, but when he drank a little he liked to sing this one,

full of curses (though he too said "muckers" or "muggers", so it

wasn't all THAT daring!) But I never had any thought it was British.

My dad's from Michigan (Muskegon), b. 1907, Scots-Irish. He used to

deliver laundry in his teens to vaudevillians summering up by the

Lake, so maybe he picket it up from them.

    I don't remember many of the verses, but they included the one

Joan gave, more or less, and others like:



"Oh the sheriff he came too, he came too, he came too

"Oh the sheriff he came too, with his boys all dressed in blue

"They're a gang of muckers too, Damn their hides."



Somewhat later (!) in the narrative, he'd slow to a drag and sing:



"To the gallows we must go, we must go, we must go..."



    Followed by:

"I saw Nelly in the crowd, in the crowd, in the crowd

"I saw Nelly in the crowd, and she looked so very proud

"That I hollered right out loud, 'Damn your eyes!'"



So evidently Samuel Hall, unrepentant soul, was also hanged. Not as

memorably as Joe Hill, but with some drama of his own making...

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:06:34 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: language and society text



Ralph Fasold's address here is fasold[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu, or

Linguistics Dept., Georgetown University, Washington DC 20057-1068.



The questions mentioned are actually included in the first book, but

not in the second (1990). I've used both volumes in grad and undergrad

courses-- much to Ralph's embarrassment, but they are extremely

useful-- and find them a nice pair for a grad survey, and rather too

much depth for an undergrad one, though I still use selected chapters

to supplement other texts such as Wardhaugh (not that I'm happy with

any of the texts for undergrads yet).

    I just got a new flyer for Wayne Glowka's and Don Lance's

"Language Variation in N. American english" from the MLA with a sale

price for MLA or LSA members of $15.80. Meant to buy it before,

certainly will now. Who's used this, for what classes, and how has it

worked out? Looks excellent too! [but why don't ADS members get a

discount?!]

    --plp



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:25:11 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cajun Query



On mass in Cajun French, get in touch with Rev. Msgr. Jules Daigle,

P.O. Box 266, Welsh, LA 70591



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:29:10 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



Question 1) What does the reference to eyes mean in "Damn your eyes?"

Question 2) What can be said of the distribution and the identity of the

speakers who say "I don't know from [subject category]," as in "I know

about loose meat but I don't know from barbeque." [this form was

recently used in a posting here]

Ron Rabin

Bflo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 16:53:37 -0600

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cajun Query



I'm not sure about mass being said in French. It wasn't where I lived in

Terrebonne Parish and folks didn't talk about that as one of the changes

(the big change was from Latin). But if anybody knows, Barry Ancelet does.

He's at the University of Southwestern Louisiana (dept. of foreign languages),

Lafayette, Louisiana. Also at the same university is Marcia Gaudet, who

I'm sure could answer the same question. I don't know their email

addresses offhand, but I'll try and get to forward them to you or you

might try fingering them. Another contact person is Ray Brassieur. Sorry I

don't have the addresses at hand.

shana





 

  I imagine that somewhere in Cajun territory mass is said in French. Is it

  said in something like standard French or in Cajun French? Are leaflet

  missalettes printed in standard French and then read aloud in Cajun French

  or are the missalettes actually printed in spelling to reflect Cajun

  pronunciation? How can I get my hands on one of these missalettes?

 

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.gac.peachnet.edu

 





--

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:09:19 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: non-standard past participles



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Mencken identified them as the hallmark of the American Vulgate!

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

"between Appalachia and the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:13:29 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: expletive delineated



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



I thought the "H" in Jeeeesus H. Keeerist stood for the same insubstantial that

the "S" does in Harry S Truman  :-)

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:21:31 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: Jesus H. Christ



What about H being the middle letter of IHS (Iesus Hominum

Salvator -- Jesus, Saviour of Mankind)? And take a look at

the first three letters (upper case) of 'Jesus' in Greek.



--

Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 18:32:02 -0500

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: One Week to December



  Any MLA members who miss your ADS deadline for abstracts for the

Chicago meeting and have appropriate proposals are welcomed to submit an

abstract or description for the Language and Society Division of MLA,

which meets concurrently with ADS in Chicago this year. Send abstract to

Connie Eble by email (cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu), fax (919-962-3520) or snail

mail (EnglishDept., CB#3520, U. of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, NC

27599-3520) by Monday, April 3. Thanks. Connie



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:52:01 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Interest in expletives?



My sainted grandmother will forgive me this...



Just before she died, she was in some degree of pain and wanted the end

to come soon. As my mother and two brothers walked into the room where

she lay on her deathbed, she cried out, "Come and get me, Jesus, Honey!"



My brother did a tasteful eulogy at her funeral. She was a grand olde

dame, and the stories were varied, rich, and bittersweet. He brought

down the house (church?) when he related that grama, just before she

died, figured out the middle name of Jesus Christ: it was Honey.



Cheers,

tlc



On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Jerry (NMN) Miller wrote:



  I can't substatiate this at all, but my guess is that the H in Jesus H. Christ

  stands for Holy. I have heard people use the full expletive Jesus Holy Christ,

  which prompts my guess on this one.

                      jmiller

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 20:18:10 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



On Mon, 13 Mar 1995, Katherine Catmull wrote:



  Anyone have more info on the Sam Hall song, and whether it is in fact

  British?



As I recall, it started as a standard broadsheet ballad about a condemned

man repenting his sins. Something like:



My name it is Jack Hall,

Chimney sweep.

....

My name it is Jack Hall,

And my neck will pay for all...



Sam Hall is a parody.  There's a bawdier version, under the title

"Knobby Hall" in either Rugby Songs or More Rugby Songs (published by the

British paperback company Sphere.)



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Mar 1995 22:20:49 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam Hill



 Question 1) What does the reference to eyes mean in "Damn your eyes?"



I think I know what the reference means, but as to why "eyes" in particular I

don't know. It strikes me as a standard 19th century insult, though.



















 Question 2) What can be said of the distribution and the identity of the

 speakers who say "I don't know from [subject category]," as in "I know

 about loose meat but I don't know from barbeque." [this form was

 recently used in a posting here]



I think I was the user, although not in connection with that thread. I've

always assumed it's an instance of Yinglish as spoken in New York, or at least

that's the stereotype. Whether it's restricted to Jewish and/or New York

dialects I don't know. But this seemed to be a good list to use it on.



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1995 to 14 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 5 messages totalling 88 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. AWFUL OFFAL

 2. H

 3. language and Society text

 4. language and society text

 5. expletive delineated



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 1995 06:50:49 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: AWFUL OFFAL



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Pip has a point here. Since the unrounding began in the N. of England and the

US several centuries ago, we have to see f, s, th as contexts retarding the

change from r to unr vowel. I too notice that though I say aw-fis for office I

usually say it ah-fis in phrases like office manager; likewise it's doggerl with

an [a] despite the rounding of dog. New--or unusual--words get added to the unr

pattern. Consider the 'broad A' in RP: one would never use it in 'plastic'

despite the conditioning environment.                   DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 1995 07:26:33 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: H



The H is jesus H. Christ stands for Horishny, obviously.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 1995 07:25:43 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: language and Society text



I've used wardhaugh's INTRODUCTION TO SOCIOLINGIUSTICS for years now and

like its coverage and level. have found only 3 mistakes so far.

Bob Wacha



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:43:22 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: language and society text



On Tue, 14 Mar 1995, Peter L. Patrick wrote:



[snip]

      I just got a new flyer for Wayne Glowka's and Don Lance's

  "Language Variation in N. American english" from the MLA with a sale

  price for MLA or LSA members of $15.80. Meant to buy it before,

  certainly will now. Who's used this, for what classes, and how has it

  worked out? Looks excellent too! [but why don't ADS members get a

  discount?!]

      --plp

 



I used Glowka and Lance as an ancillary text for my Development of

American English course (upper-division undergrad course). I assigned

each article to a student and that student made an oral report to the

class and was required to prepare a handout as a study aid. I drew some

questions for the exams from the students' presentations. Was surprised

at the number of students who read many articles NOT assinged to them.



ADS members don't get a discount because MLA has an elitist policy that

allows absolutely no recognition of other societies, even those (like

ADS) which have been around since Moses was a child (1889).

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Mar 1995 12:47:54 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: expletive delineated



On Tue, 14 Mar 1995 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU wrote:



[snip]



  I thought the "H" in Jeeeesus H. Keeerist stood for the same insubstantial that

  the "S" does in Harry S Truman  :-)

                         DAVID



But David, the S does stand for "Something," if I remember HST's

explanation correctly.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Mar 1995 to 15 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 200 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. verb-avoidance

 2. language and society text

 3. Interest in expletives? (2)

 4. suite /sut/ and /kup/

 5. Jesus H. Christ

 6. Panel on DARE at ADS meeting

 7. /kup/'s in Detroit (2)

 8. French coupe'



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 00:13:49 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: verb-avoidance



  This is a vaguely historical query--when did people starting saying

  and (especially) writing "make use of" instead of "use"? If anyone

  has any ideas about why this happened, that would be great, but I'm

  mostly just wondering about when.



Perhaps it came in the same invasion as a lot of other verb-avoidance

devices in legalese -- "file an application" for "apply", bla bla bla.



About twenty years ago I read a lament that verbs were similarly

disappearing in French, being replaced by `faire' constructions.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 07:13:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: language and society text



After much flopping around, our Language and Society course here at MSU (300

per semester) has settled (temporarily) on Wolfram's Dialects and American

English and a substantial course pack of readings. We have also worked out a

fairly decent system of group and individual language collection projects

which contribute substantially to the grades.

Some of the recommendations to the list we have tried and found simply not so

good. Wardhaugh is a dandy review for grad students, but, in spite of its

clarity, it is just too dry (and in places too idiosyncratic) for

undergraduates.

Holmes, Romaine, both good, simply do not address any familiar stuff. Why

would you want American undergrads to read about varieties in East Anglia

when they don't know beans about the US Northern Cities Vowel Shift?

The old Trudgill Sociolinguistics was pretty good, but it lacks a great deal

on conversation and interaction, and, in general, it is a little out of date.

Chaika's section on discourse and conversation is good, but the treatment of

US regionalism (and quantitative matters in sociolinguistics in general) is

not satisfactory.

For now, I think it would be tough to beat Wolfram for US students, with, of

course, a lot of added readings, particularly in the general language and

culture area.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 09:41:43 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Interest in expletives?



I've always wondered what the H, it stood for, as well in Jesus H. Christ. I

know Tim's mother in our Methodist Youth Fellowship group never explained it

to us.



About 25 years ago when the Jesus Christ Superstar opera was popular, I

decided, for myself, that the H stands for Hosanna. Any seconds on that

theory?



Hosanna, Heysanna, sanna sanna ho, sanna hey, sanna hosanna ...



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:01:07 -0500

From:  "Cathy C. Bodin"  cbodin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMARY.EDU 

Subject: Re: suite /sut/ and /kup/



    My guess on "suite" /sut/ is that anglophones pronounce

it the way they see, i.e. read, it.

    On occasion, we even change the spelling to suit our

pronunciation, e.g., "chaise longue." We merely mispronounce "macabre."

    Can anyone comment on the pronunciation of a type of car, also

of French origin, a "coupe'" (with final accent), pronounced /kup/ in

the U.S.? Am I right in ascribing this to a "reading pronunciation?"

                        -- Cathy Bodin



    Do you think the French cringe over our pronunciation of

Detroit?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 10:48:04 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Jesus H. Christ



On Tue, 14 Mar 1995 15:21, Joseph Jones writes:



  What about H being the middle letter of IHS (Iesus Hominum

  Salvator -- Jesus, Saviour of Mankind)? And take a look at

  the first three letters (upper case) of 'Jesus' in Greek.

 

  --

  Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

  University of British Columbia Library



I'd just recently come across the latter explanation (i.e., that the

"H" was a re-interpreted eta); I thought it was in Gerald Cohen's

_Comments on Etymology_, but I could not find it this morning.

Anyone out there have similar reading material, but a better memory

(or filing system)?



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 13:01:57 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Panel on DARE at ADS meeting



For the ADS meeting in Chicago in December, I hope to moderate a panel on

uses of DARE, both in teaching and research. If you've used DARE in your

classes, now's the time to share with others how it has (or hasn't) worked.

You might get some good ideas from Tom Clark's review of Volume II in the

Fall 1994 issue of American Speech, or a look at the Index to Volumes I and

II might trigger an idea. I have a couple of papers lined up, but could use

a couple more. If you're interested, even if you don't have a firm topic

yet, please get back to me right away.



Joan Hall (jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 16:37:33 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Interest in expletives?



On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO wrote:



  I've always wondered what the H, it stood for, as well in Jesus H. Christ. I

  know Tim's mother in our Methodist Youth Fellowship group never explained it

  to us.



Maybe I should ask her.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 18:21:12 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: /kup/'s in Detroit



I think the French cringe at the thought of GOING to Detroit!

as well they should-- how long would someone last driving around

there in a coupe' (or cringing every time they heard Americans speak

American English)? Let loanwords be bygones...



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 18:51:36 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: French coupe'



Saw Cathy Bodin's questions on the French word   coupe'   meaning "sedan"

in American English. This words has more or less been replaced in

popular French by the word   berline   and is contrasted to a   break  

"station wagon" or a   trois portes   "hatchback". In the 1994 Petit

Robert you can still find the example of "les berlines et les coupe's" in

the entry for Berline. I have never seen the English word "coupe", when

it means sedan, with an accent mark. Changing the spelling may just

follow the pronunciation at times.



A good example of the use, orf lack thereofof accents in English borrowed

from French is the word in American English that is the equivalent of a

Curriculum Vitae. Some people write resume with no accents, others

re'sume with one only on the first e, others resume' with an accent only

on the second e, and still others re'sume' on both e's. French-speakers,

at least in France, do not use any of these forms of   re'sume'   for the

word curriculum vitae (CV). It only means a short form, either oral or

written, or something longer. How do the rest of you spell "resume" in

English? Is this also a pronunciation issue like Cathy brought up?



Jeff Allen

jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:38:22 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: /kup/'s in Detroit



And who would cringe at what the French (later Americans) did to

Marquette's 'MOINGOUENA' placed beside a couple of tipis on his map?

Later maps had 'des moines' with no -g- in French. What's there to

cringe about? Cringing itself? DE-troit follows the Germanic Stress

Pattern, and D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-TROit follows Romance. Is that the quibble, or should

Americans have retained the French rendering of -oi-? The people in

Versailles, Missouri, are chastized for not following the French pronunciation,

but their forebears named the town for Versailles, Kentucky -- so I guess

it's the Kentuckians who're to blame, unless there's also a Versailles,

Virginia, to carry that burden. Place names are fun.  DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Mar 1995 to 16 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 20 messages totalling 428 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /kup/'s in Detroit (2)

 2.  No subject given 

 3. Willamette Valley

 4. Jesus H. Christ (2)

 5. French coupe'

 6. Coupe vs. sedan (3)

 7. Willamette Valley and Oregon

 8. /kup/

 9. your mail

 10. seeking regional discussion

 11. vitae

 12. Salty dog?

 13. "Bamboozled"

 14. /kup/'s in Detroit (fwd)

 15. French coupe' (fwd)

 16. Willamette Valley and Detroit



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 02:39:34 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: /kup/'s in Detroit



While we're at it, where does the stress fall in the name of the valley

which was the terminus of the Oregon Trail -- Willamette? (For that

matter, where does the stress fall in 'Oregon'?)

Fritz Juengling



On Thu, 16 Mar 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



  And who would cringe at what the French (later Americans) did to

  Marquette's 'MOINGOUENA' placed beside a couple of tipis on his map?

  Later maps had 'des moines' with no -g- in French. What's there to

  cringe about? Cringing itself? DE-troit follows the Germanic Stress

  Pattern, and D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-TROit follows Romance. Is that the quibble, or should

  Americans have retained the French rendering of -oi-? The people in

  Versailles, Missouri, are chastized for not following the French

 pronunciation,

  but their forebears named the town for Versailles, Kentucky -- so I guess

  it's the Kentuckians who're to blame, unless there's also a Versailles,

  Virginia, to carry that burden. Place names are fun.  DMLance

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:32:49 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't 'coupe' refer to a 2 door car and

'sedan' to a 4 door?



Was 'coupe' ever a synonym for 'sedan'?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:18:31 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Willamette Valley



  While we're at it, where does the stress fall in the name of the valley

  which was the terminus of the Oregon Trail -- Willamette? (For that

  matter, where does the stress fall in 'Oregon'?)

  Fritz Juengling



According to my wife, a native Ory-gunian, it's pronounced Ory-gun, instead of

Ory-gone. They even had bumperstickers to this effect:-)



The Wil-LA-met valley was the terminus for the Ory-gun Trail. As opposed to

the Wil-la-MET, or the WIL-la-met.



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:52:16 -0500

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University"  BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Jesus H. Christ



My partner says that in Northern W.Va. in the mid-60's it was "Jesus

Herkimer Christ."



Becky Howard



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:23:51 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: French coupe'



I spell resume (noun, meaning a summary of one's experience sent to

a potential employer) without accent marks. Also, I and a few of my

friends will jocularly and deliberately pronounce it as if it were

the verb resume (two syllables, long e and u) when we know there's no

possibility of confusion. (At least in my usage, a resume and a

curriculum vitae are different things--a c.v. is used mostly for

academic jobs, and lists everything, while a resume is used elsewhere

and summarizes, often in a single page.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:04:17 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Coupe vs. sedan



For some people, there may be an actual distinction between coupe and

sedan in English. Coupe was not used much in the area I grew up and

worked in here in the States. I would tend to use Sedan as the generic

term for a certain for of car in contrast to a hatchback/liftback or a

station wagon.



Again, in popular spoken French, berline is the common term. Coupe' does

exist in the dictionary but is not used in advertising and in everyday

conversations about cars in France.



Bob, thanks for the possible clarification. Does anyone else make the

distinction between coupe and sedan?



Jeff Allen

---------------------------------------------------------------



Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't 'coupe' refer to a 2 door car and

'sedan' to a 4 door?



Was 'coupe' ever a synonym for 'sedan'?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:16:05 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Willamette Valley and Oregon



Another native Oregonian to add to the discussion on the pronunciation of

these two words.



I have always heard and used Wil-LAM-met, which affirms Leo's claim.



As for Oregon, remember that film called War Games back in the 80's about

the kid from Seattle who got himself in trouble for breaking into the

US Gov't computer system to play some games, and then gets stuck in the

game of Thermonuclear War with the computer. Well, the kid was in

Colorado, calling his girlfriend back in Seattle to have her buy him a

plan ticket for O-ry-GON. Immediate Shibboleth give-away here folks. A

native northwesterner, either in Washington or Oregon, would normally

pronounce it OR-E-gun (captital E is a schwa, not stressed), or at least

OR-y-gun, as Leo has pointed out. The kid actor was definitely not from

the NW.



However, a native of OR-E-gun does prononce OR-E-go-ni-En to designate a

person who lives in that state.



Jeff Allen

---------------------------------------------------------------

  While we're at it, where does the stress fall in the name of the valley

  which was the terminus of the Oregon Trail -- Willamette? (For that

  matter, where does the stress fall in 'Oregon'?)

  Fritz Juengling



According to my wife, a native Ory-gunian, it's pronounced Ory-gun, instead of

Ory-gone. They even had bumperstickers to this effect:-)



The Wil-LA-met valley was the terminus for the Ory-gun Trail. As opposed to

the Wil-la-MET, or the WIL-la-met.



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:51:05 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: /kup/



     Can anyone comment on the pronunciation of a type of car, also

 of French origin, a "coupe'" (with final accent), pronounced /kup/ in

 the U.S.? Am I right in ascribing this to a "reading pronunciation?"

                         -- Cathy Bodin



The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories says this (italics omitted

because of the medium I'm using):



A number of other names for automobiles or automobile styles were first the

names of carriages: coupe, landau, brougham, and station wagon. Coupe or

coupe' is the term for a small automobile with two doors and a single seat

for two people. As the name for a carriage, it referred to what was thought

of as a "cut-down" version (hence the name, from French coupe', the past

participle of couper 'to cut', but probably more immediately from carrosse

coupe', literally, 'cut-off coach'). The horse-drawn coupe or coupe' was a

small, enclosed carriage with four wheels, a door on either side, a single

seat for two facing forward, and a driver's seat outside separated from

the passenger section by a glassed partition.



[The book then goes on to comment on landau, brougham, and station wagon.]



     Do you think the French cringe over our pronunciation of

 Detroit?



Yeah--the French have long since given up on our ability to say any of their

words with reasonable accuracy.



Sigh.



--Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:17:49 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Coupe vs. sedan



I've always known that a coupe is a 2-seater, while a sedan is

4 (or more)-seater. A sedan can be a 2-door or a 4-door.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:31:44 -0500

From:  "Susan G. Wolf"  wolf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINERVA.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Coupe vs. sedan



How about the difference between Cadillac's Coupe de Ville and Sedan de

Ville models?



-Susan Wolf



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 09:52:51 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: your mail



On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



  Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't 'coupe' refer to a 2 door car and

  'sedan' to a 4 door?

 

  Was 'coupe' ever a synonym for 'sedan'?



To understand this you have to be old enough to remember what 40s cars

looked like. You could by a chevrolet or ford sedan in either a 4-door

or tudor (the spelling used in ads). The tudor was the same basic body

shape as the sedan. The coupe was more like an enclosed 2-seater,

although itsometimes had a very cramped rear seat. It had more rakish

lines than the sedan, with a big sloping rear deck. See the car Humphrey

Bogart drives in The Big Sleep. (I think its a 38 Plymouth).



The best looking coupe was the 1940 ford. I always wanted one.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 10:46:06 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: seeking regional discussion



  I know this is of the subject(s), but does anyone out there know of any

general-interest discussion groups on Internet, WWW, whatever, in the Washington,

D.C., area or the Charleston, W.Va., area? I need to locate some sources in those

areas for a book I am doing.

  Any help greatly appreciated.



                    jmiller

                    franklin college (ind.)

                    miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]newton.franklincoll.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 08:38:26 +0800

From:  elliot mcintire  vcgeg002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUEY.CSUN.EDU 

Subject: Re: /kup/'s in Detroit



On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:



  While we're at it, where does the stress fall in the name of the valley

  which was the terminus of the Oregon Trail -- Willamette? (For that

  matter, where does the stress fall in 'Oregon'?)

  Fritz Juengling



As a former Oregonian I feel confident about this one. It's Wil-LAM-ette.

I always think of it as a mild swear word. As for the state, it's OR-e-gun.



emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:34:23 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Jesus H. Christ



The article on Jesus H. Christ is by Roger Smith, in the fall 1994 issue of

American Speech, pp. 331-35.

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 12:27:54 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: vitae



 A good example of the use, orf lack thereofof accents in English borrowed

 from French is the word in American English that is the equivalent of a

 Curriculum Vitae. Some people write resume with no accents, others

 re'sume with one only on the first e, others resume' with an accent only

 on the second e, and still others re'sume' on both e's. French-speakers,

 at least in France, do not use any of these forms of   re'sume'   for the

 word curriculum vitae (CV). It only means a short form, either oral or

 written, or something longer. How do the rest of you spell "resume" in

 English? Is this also a pronunciation issue like Cathy brought up?

 

 Jeff Allen

 jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



And some people just write vitae for the sg. as in, "My vitae is enclosed,

and I will be available to meet with you at the MLA in December..." Unless

of course you go to the MLA just to attend the ADS sessions.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 16:18:46 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Salty dog?



  One of my colleagues, who has a farming background, says that an uncoopera-

tive horse is called a "salty horse" and wonders if "salty dog" could be a

transferral of the saltiness from equine to canine?



                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 17:01:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: "Bamboozled"



Can someone tell me where the word "bamboozled" comes from?





Leonard Schiefer

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine



lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 18:23:39 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: /kup/'s in Detroit (fwd)



As for the pronunciation of Detroit in English, my wife (who has only

lived in the US for 8 months) doesn't cringe at the pronunciation of it,

but rather thinks it's funny. On the other hand, I've taught a lot of

French students and business people, and a lot of English words borrowed

from French have made them cringe. American Pop Rock has an incredible

influence on French youth today, leading to a more general acceptance of

many English words into their language at the level of popular usage.



Jeff Allen

---------------------------------------------



I think the French cringe at the thought of GOING to Detroit!

as well they should-- how long would someone last driving around

there in a coupe' (or cringing every time they heard Americans speak

American English)? Let loanwords be bygones...



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 18:30:24 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: French coupe' (fwd)



Vicki,



I fully agree that a CV tends to be used in the academic realm, whereas

a resume (or one of its orthographic variants) is used pretty much

everywhere else and tends to be shorter. This is often because a resume

doesn't need a publications and research section. Resume is the words

that non-academics use, so now I do too in the corporate sector.



Jeff Allen

------------------------------------

I spell resume (noun, meaning a summary of one's experience sent to

a potential employer) without accent marks. Also, I and a few of my

friends will jocularly and deliberately pronounce it as if it were

the verb resume (two syllables, long e and u) when we know there's no

possibility of confusion. (At least in my usage, a resume and a

curriculum vitae are different things--a c.v. is used mostly for

academic jobs, and lists everything, while a resume is used elsewhere

and summarizes, often in a single page.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 19:08:19 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Willamette Valley and Detroit



On Fri, 17 Mar 1995, Leo Horishny wrote:



  According to my wife, a native Ory-gunian, it's pronounced Ory-gun, instead of

  Ory-gone. They even had bumperstickers to this effect:-)



 I believe your wife is an or-e-GO-ni-an. At least, that's all I've ever

 heard or said. Of course, the Valley is the Wi-LA-met and the state is

OR-y-g[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n.  The only thing more grating to my ears is Dan Rather's goofy

pronunciation with AH at the beginning-- AR-y-g[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n.



BTW, I also make a distinction in pronunciation between Detroit,

Michigan, which is de-TROIT (no schwa in 1st syllable!) and the little

town in Oregon which is a few miles up the pass from my hometown-- DE-troit.



Fritz Juengling

  

  The Wil-LA-met valley was the terminus for the Ory-gun Trail. As opposed to

  the Wil-la-MET, or the WIL-la-met.

 

  leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

  Rowrbazzle!

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Mar 1995 to 17 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 179 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Coupe vs. sedan (2)

 2. Sam HAll

 3. hellbent for leather (2)

 4. a coupe for three

 5. Variable -s on Nouns

 6. Chuck/Potholes



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Mar 1995 00:35:20 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Coupe vs. sedan



My recollection is the same as Bob Wachal's -- that a coupe' had two

doors and a sedan four. The interior was also smaller. In the 50s,

weren't there also cars that were billed as two-door sedans for a while --

i.e., a rather big car almost the size of a 4-door but with only two doors?

As a pre-teen I also thought a coupe' had to have a rumbleseat. And I have

echoes of people saying 'coup' for small cars that weren't fancy.

                             DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 07:18:42 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Sam HAll



My listserv mail is getting hung up somewhere in cyberspace

and I just got Tuesday's postings. Someone asked for about the

song Sam Hall. The version I have on tape (milder than the one

I quoted) is sung by Tex Ritter and listed as traditional.

However, it may be Irish rather than English--the girl spoken

of in the song is "Molly." ("saw Molly in the crowd and I

hollered right outloud--hey Molly ain't ya proud?"). My tape

has no liner notes, so there's no other infomation--not even

the date of the recording.



I first found the song in the late 60's in a paperback book of

folk songs which I no longer have.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Mar 1995 21:18:41 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: hellbent for leather



So, along with where in Sam Hell and Jesus H. Christ, I'd

like to add my curiosity about hellbent for leather. I've

got no idea--not even a whisper of a speculation. If only

we weren't losing (as it seems to me we are) such delightful

forms. hells bells. shit for the birds. hellbent for

leather. sam hell. Jesus H Christ.



My brother had a guinea pig when he was young, named

Harry P. Livingston (P for pig) Perhaps Jesus H.

Christ is H for human.



--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Mar 1995 09:54:03 -0600

From:  Gerald Walton  vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Coupe vs. sedan



  The interior was also smaller. In the 50s,

 weren't there also cars that were billed as two-door sedans for a while --

 i.e., a rather big car almost the size of a 4-door but with only two doors?



Yes, that's my remembrance also.



 As a pre-teen I also thought a coupe' had to have a rumbleseat.



I don't remember that.



In the 50's, in particular, people I knew used "coupe" to refer to two-door

cars with no back seat. My 1950 Plymouth was called, by most people, a

"business man's coupe." It had a huge very deep trunk (people sometimes

referred to the trunks as "turtle shells") and no back seat. It did have a

good deal of space behind the one seat, though, enough space for a small

person to stand in. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Mar 1995 12:36:18 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: a coupe for three



As I recall, some coupes had rumble seats--a special fold up seat where

the trunk would be.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 12:43:16 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: hellbent for leather



On Fri, 17 Mar 1995 at 21:18:41 -0600, Joan Livingston-Webber

 webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU  wrote:



  So, along with where in Sam Hell and Jesus H. Christ, I'd

  like to add my curiosity about hellbent for leather.

                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



I've never heard this expression, but "hell bent for election" was

always used in my family with a meaning like "recklessly fast".



Tim Behrend



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Mar 1995 19:02:26 EST

From:  Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU 

Subject: Variable -s on Nouns



To pick up on a thread of a week ago that dealt mainly with the increasing

use os -s on "Ozarks" in attributive position (i.e. Ozarks Mountains), this

is something that I've noticed particularly on the sports page recently.

Here are three examples from my local paper, but all from wire service

stories, most often with the names of teams:



   "Gerald Riggs was the last to gain 100 yards on Philadelphia, and no

   Cowboys runner had done it since Hershel Walker in 1986."



   "His homerun total was the highest by a Dodgers rookie since Greg

   Brock also hit 20 in 1983, . . ."



   "Percy Eberhart, a former University of South Carolina basketball

   recruit whose checkered athletics career includes suspension from

   his high school team, . . ."



These are all cases in which the -s looks and sounds very odd to me.

The last one represents at least a couple of dozen I've seen involving

the term _athletics_. My university has for some time had an _Athletics

Director_, presumably since the Sports Information Office or the school's

Office of Media Relations has decided that this represents the proper

derivation from _Director of Athletics_. It has become the only term

used in university publicity and in the local newspaper, although so far

as I can tell, only a written form (one hears only _Athletic Director_).

I haven't tried to track this down hereabouts, but probably should. Has

the same -s been cropping up on other campuses? Can it be too long

the title is overcorrected in writing to _Athletics' Director_?



Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, Univ of South Carolina,

Columbia SC 29208



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Mar 1995 21:47:22 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: Chuck/Potholes



It's spring (oh hurray!) and the Omaha paper is advertising

a t-shirt fro the "official midlands driver" that has a large

banner on it, "I survived the chuckholes!" I remember chuckholes

from growing up in sw PA, 1950's. It didn't surprise me that

my children didn't know what it meant--they were raised in

neither PA nor Omaha. But I asked some teen-age natives and

they didn't know what they were either. Since coming to the

middle section of the country, I only remember hearing of

potholes. One young friend is asking her father, who was also

raised in Omaha. The cartoonist (who designed the t-shirt)

may hail from the east or be over 35 (or both). It has

made me curious about the distribution of potholes and

chuckholes.



(ps. the Omaha paper doesn't call this area

the midwest. It uses midlands or heartland--and has an

overtly stated fondness for heartland--a kind of sentimentality,

I think.) Is chuck/pothole regional, age-related or both? And, btw,

who was Chuck? I suppose someone will tell me that a chuck is

some piece on the axle of a horsedrawn wagon that broke or

fell in.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Mar 1995 to 18 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 237 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Variable -s on Nouns (2)

 2. Chuck/Potholes (3)

 3. chuck hole/pot hole (2)

 4. hellbent for leather (2)

 5. apposite -s

 6. bamboozle

 7.  No subject given 

 8. Cajun homesteads



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:18:28 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Variable -s on Nouns



Michael Montgomery has supplied exactly the kind of real-life examples

I was hoping for. Each generation must keep in mind that the next ones

will develop their own language rules. "Ozarks Mountains" and "Cowboys

runner" sound as right to their users as they sound wrong to me. Meaning,

of course,"not grammatical in my dialect." "A scissor" and "a pant" also

have wrong shapes for the holes in my lexical paradigm. I've noticed

forms like "Cowboys runner" in the speech of sports announcers on tv but

didn't recall them when I posted the info about -s on attributive

'Ozark/s'. Thanks, Michael.      DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 00:28:14 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



DARE found 'chughole' to be a South Midland term (see their map*), but

apparently no regionality was found for 'chuckhole'. I suspect that

'pothole' is the "standard" for tv etc, as that's what I hear.

These terms have been discussed in some source I used in my dialect

class, I think. And there's the folk speculation that chuckholes are

caused by woodchucks (preumably in fields). I've always free-associated

'chughole' with chugging through them in a car with weak springs.

DARE says "uncert" of the origin of 'chuckhole'.

*map: 'chughole' in KY, TN, TX and just over the line in IN and OK.

          DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 07:50:15 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: chuck hole/pot hole



 Is chuck/pothole regional, age-related or both? And, btw,

 who was Chuck? I suppose someone will tell me that a chuck is

 some piece on the axle of a horsedrawn wagon that broke or

 fell in.

 --

 Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu



Probably regional. I grew up in Southern Ohio and had relatives from

Kentucky. Chuck hole was the term used. I moved to New England and have never

heard the term (they use Pot hole) and when I used the term Chuck hole they

didn't know what I was talking about. (Kinda like Frappe in New England for a

very runny unthick shake.)



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 07:50:57 -0600

From:  Salikoko Mufwene  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Variable -s on Nouns



In message Sat, 18 Mar 1995 19:02:26 EST,

 Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu  quotes:



  "Gerald Riggs was the last to gain 100 yards on Philadelphia, and no

  Cowboys runner had done it since Hershel Walker in 1986."

 

  "His homerun total was the highest by a Dodgers rookie since Greg

  Brock also hit 20 in 1983, . . ."



 and expresses misgivings about the plural form in "Cowboys" and "Dodgers."

Don Lance agrees with him. May I ask whether both of you or anyone else

would be happier with "Cowboy runner" and "Dodger rookie." Several years

back (1983) I wrote a manuscript about proper names and dealt somewhat with

teams' names. Several speakers I interviewed felt uncomfortable with uses

such as "MJ is a Bull" (now again!) or "Herschel Walker is a Bulldog"

(then). Is the case brought up by Montgomery one of those one may not fully

please others one way or another?

  Is the redundancy in the "Ozarks Mountains" the same phenomenon (though

undoubtedly related) as the above? Does the case of "Athletics Director"

bear some relation to that of "linguistics professor," or doesn't it?

Is the "s" in "Athletics" necessarily treated as a plural? I'll be

thinking more about these matters myself, but some feedback from the

native speaker crowd won't hurt.

Sali,

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 10:39:16 +0600

From:  Jim McCulloch  ifza600[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCWF.CC.UTEXAS.EDU 

Subject: Re: chuck hole/pot hole



The OED has it as "chock-hole", chock being a block or lump, and chock-hole

presumably being a hole that is an obstacle to traffic.

I grew up in Southeast Texas in the 50's and, to me and the people I knew

at the time, such a hole was a "chughole." There were no potholes on my

street.

--Jim McCulloch



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 11:45:38 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



In Ithaca, N.Y. they are potholes; a representative of Cornell and a

representative of the city government agree on this point. We don't

know of chuckholes.



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 10:18:08 -0800

From:  "Joseph B. Monda"  monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU 

Subject: Re: hellbent for leather



I've heard "hell for leather" and "hellbent on/for destruction", but not

"hellbent for leather."

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 13:22:45 EST

From:  Brad Grissom  BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU 

Subject: Re: hellbent for leather



 I've heard "hell for leather" and "hellbent on/for destruction", but not

 "hellbent for leather."

 Joe Monda



 There's a 1960 Audie Murphy movie titled -Hell Bent for Leather-.



 Brad Grissom



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 10:23:49 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: apposite -s



Michael Montgomery  N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU  writes:

  . . . . My university has for some time had an _Athletics

  Director_, presumably since the Sports Information Office or the school's

  Office of Media Relations has decided that this represents the proper

  derivation from _Director of Athletics_. It has become the only term

  used in university publicity and in the local newspaper, although so far

  as I can tell, only a written form (one hears only _Athletic Director_).

  I haven't tried to track this down hereabouts, but probably should. Has

  the same -s been cropping up on other campuses? . . .



All I can say is that my dad was never a "physic professor"!

Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 10:28:47 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: bamboozle



Leonard Schiefer asks:

  Can someone tell me where the word "bamboozled" comes from?



Well, Am.Her.Dict. saith: "Probably a cant variant of _bumbazzle_,

from _bombace_, padding, BOMBAST."



As Dad used to say, "Now do you know more than you did?"



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 19:53:01 GMT

From:  Harry Dick  h.dick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGNET.AT 

Subject:  No subject given 



List Global



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 18:12:16 -0600

From:  Anne Baldwin  abaldwin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PO-1.STAR.K12.IA.US 

Subject: Cajun homesteads



A national house and lifestyle magazine that I write for frequently is

looking for a Cajun or Creole homestead in rural Louisiana to feature in an

ongoing series of articles devoted to "Our Country Heritage."



The article would be about the house, the family who lives there, and the

connection of the house and its occupants to a regional or ethnic

lifestyle.



The house should be old; the older the better. The editor would prefer a

house that has been in the same family for several generations. It can be

in need of repair, but it should in some way typify a regional or ethnic

lifestyle.



Ideally, it would be near some body of water, forest, or other natural

feature associated with the family's lifestyle.



I know there are subscribers on this list who are knowledgeable about Cajun

life. Do any of you know of such a place?





======================================================================

Robert F. Baldwin,                    515/284-8920

Freelance Articles                    Member, ASJA



======================================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 23:41:01 -0500

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



Of the 51 informants in the Pacific Northwest field records, one gave

chunkhole,two gave pothole, four offered ruts, and the rest gave chuck hole.



David R. Carlson

34 Spaulding St.

Amherst MA 01002



In Eastern Mass a frappe is not runny; a milkshake is. In Western Mass, a

milkshake is thick like a frappe.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Mar 1995 to 19 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 267 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Chuck/Potholes (5)

 2. Willamette Valley and Oregon (2)

 3. Cajun homesteads

 4. hellbent for leather (2)

 5.  No subject given  (2)

 6. Chuck/Potholes (fwd)

 7. Frappes, cabinets and tonics.



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Mar 1995 23:34:04 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



I have never heard of 'chuck hole'. For me it's a pothole. My wife,

also an Oregonian, said that she's heard chuck hole, but from only her

parents-- no one her age would say chuck hole. Maybe pot hole has

replaced chuck hole in Orygun.

Fritz Juengling



On Sun, 19 Mar 1995, David Carlson wrote:



  Of the 51 informants in the Pacific Northwest field records, one gave

  chunkhole,two gave pothole, four offered ruts, and the rest gave chuck hole.

 

  David R. Carlson

  34 Spaulding St.

  Amherst MA 01002

 

  In Eastern Mass a frappe is not runny; a milkshake is. In Western Mass, a

  milkshake is thick like a frappe.

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:50:23 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



Well, let's see now...I started hearing chuck hole later on in life. From the

perspective of Reno in the 60's/70's, I first heard pothole. Didn't hear

chuckhole until later on, but can't say where first. Here in Cincinnati, I

most often hear pothole.



My wife said she remembers hearing tank trap from someone in the '50's in the

NW! We've never heard of chug hole. As for the derivation, my first thought

was that the referent was the material that was "chucked" out of the ground.



I've heard all 3 hellbent for... destinations. The one I associate most with

this phrase, though, is the hellbent for leather one. I was very surprised to

hear the responses from people who hadn't this one yet.



I must have had a more colorful background than some!  VBG 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:26:23 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



Actually, speaking not of chuckholes but of frappes, which David also was,

I was just in South Station in Boston and was delighted to observe that the

soft drinks (including iced tea!) for sale at the main snack bar are all

listed under the general capitalized heading "TONICS". (And cabinets are

still alive and well in Westerly, R. I., at least as of a few years ago.)

I wonder what out-of-towners make of it.    --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:25:42 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



 In Indiana, it is about a 50-50 split between chuckhole and pothole, with maybe

a slight edge to pothole since headline writers tend to opt for it because it

is shorter. They seem to be interchangeable here.

                    jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:43:22 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: Willamette Valley and Oregon



My son David is a senior at Willamette University in Salem. All freshmen from

out of state were told "It's WiLLAMette, dammit!" and this is confirmed in the

Insider's Guide to Colleges handbook. Since there is a community in Wisconsin

called Oregon [oregAn] (rhymes with moron), he could have been in even more

trouble, but his old man knew this shibboleth and taught him [oreg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n] before he

left. So at least he didn't get into trouble for that.



P.S.: Is there a source for phonetic symbol equivalents on e-mail? I picked up

the ampersand as equivalent to schwa from this communication, but there must be

a standard list somewhere and I'm just ignorant of it.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:25:48 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Willamette Valley and Oregon



A few (quite a few) years ago there was a book of photos of Oregon by

Ellis Lucia titled "Don't Call It Or-ee-gawn."



I don't recall hearing the pronunciation with schwa in the second syllable

(OR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]g[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n) for a long time. I learned to substitute an /i/ for my /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ in

that position when I moved here from California as a kid, and the /i/

pronunciation seems to be all one hears nowadays from those who live

here, even though the full vowel in the unstressed syllable seems to run

counter to English stress patterns.



A person from Oregon, and Portland's only daily newspaper, are pronounced

/or [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] GO ni [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, Orygun, the WilLAMette Valley



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:21:38 -0600

From:  Shana Walton  swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WHALE.ST.USM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cajun homesteads



I didn't see a personal email address so I'm posting this to the list, I

guess.



You can contact Maida Owens, director of the Louisiana Folklife Program,

in Baton Rouge at (504) 342-8180. No email. Part of her job is to keep up

with such things as folk architecture. She'll have some good ideas where

to send you for most picturesque, most "authentic," or whatever you want.



Also, FYI, in _Cajun Country_ by Ancelet, Edwards and Pitre,

(University Press of Mississippi, 1991) there's a

good, clearly-written, straight-forward-for-the-layperson section on folk

architecture with a bit of history, some photographs, house plans and

layouts, and a map showing house-type distributions in the state.



 --

Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]whale.st.usm.edu

(601) 266-5606



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:16:06 CST

From:  Joan Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: hellbent for leather



See DARE Vol II for "hell-bent for election" and "hell (or hell-bent) for

leather."

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:00:41 +0800

From:  elliot mcintire  vcgeg002[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUEY.CSUN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



Growing up in southern California in the 50s and into the 60s those things

in the street were always chuckholes (and there weren't very many of

them). I only learned potholes when I moved to Maryland in the mid-60s

(and Maryland has/had a lot of them!).



Elliot McIntire                (818)885-3517/3532

Dept. of Geography               Fax: (818)885-2723

California State University, Northridge

emcintire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huey.csun.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:28:41 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: hellbent for leather



On Sun, 19 Mar 1995, Brad Grissom wrote:



   I've heard "hell for leather" and "hellbent on/for destruction", but not

   "hellbent for leather."

   Joe Monda

 

   There's a 1960 Audie Murphy movie titled -Hell Bent for Leather-.

 

   Brad Grissom

 

Unless memory deceives me, "hellbent for leather" also occurs in one of the

songs in the Rogers & Hammerstein musical "Oklahoma": I think it's in

"Surrey with the Fringe on Top."



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 20:56:25 GMT

From:  Harry Dick  h.dick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGNET.AT 

Subject:  No subject given 



SUB  Harry Dick



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 18:06:56 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes (fwd)



They are commonly referred to as Potholes in Oregon, but I have heard,

though infrequently, some refer to them as Chuckholes. I would tend to

agree with the statement that Potholes is replacing Chuckholes in the NW.



Jeff Allen

--------------------------------

I have never heard of 'chuck hole'. For me it's a pothole. My wife,

also an Oregonian, said that she's heard chuck hole, but from only her

parents-- no one her age would say chuck hole. Maybe pot hole has

replaced chuck hole in Orygun.

Fritz Juengling



On Sun, 19 Mar 1995, David Carlson wrote:



  Of the 51 informants in the Pacific Northwest field records, one gave

  chunkhole,two gave pothole, four offered ruts, and the rest gave chuck hole.

 

  David R. Carlson

  34 Spaulding St.

  Amherst MA 01002

 

  In Eastern Mass a frappe is not runny; a milkshake is. In Western Mass, a

  milkshake is thick like a frappe.

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 19:06:41 -0600

From:  Anne Baldwin  abaldwin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PO-1.STAR.K12.IA.US 

Subject: Frappes, cabinets and tonics.



Larry Horne writes:



 Actually, speaking not of chuckholes but of frappes, which David also was,

 I was just in South Station in Boston and was delighted to observe that the

 soft drinks (including iced tea!) for sale at the main snack bar are all

 listed under the general capitalized heading "TONICS". (And cabinets are

 still alive and well in Westerly, R. I., at least as of a few years ago.)

 I wonder what out-of-towners make of it.    --Larry



Not just in Westerly. Milk, ice cream, and flavoring, blended together and

sold as frappes in nearby Massachusetts, are known as cabinets throughout

Little Rhody. Coffee milk (sweetened coffee-flavored milk) is popular,

too. Its as popular among school children as chocolate milk, and coffee

flavored syrup is universally sold in R.I. groceries. Coffee milk blended

with ice cream is a "coffee cab."





======================================================================

Robert F. Baldwin,                    515/284-8920

Freelance Articles                    Member, ASJA



======================================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Mar 1995 23:48:49 -0500

From:  MONICA A GATES  magate01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



unsubscribe to ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu. from magate01 c msuacad.morehead

state edu.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Mar 1995 to 20 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 367 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. In search of homophones (2)

 2. The Elusive New England Thick Shake

 3. TONICS

 4. English Is Tough Stuff

 5. queries

 6. Words for 1995!

 7. Englished French words

 8. "Everyday Use"

 9. 'see' or 'say'



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 05:32:22 EST

From:  Orin Hargraves  100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: In search of homophones



Can anyone direct me to a fairly complete list of American English

homophones? One that could be downloaded would be ideal, but a

paper list would do. I'm trying to cut down the size of a sound file of

recorded pronunciations that has grown far beyond our ability to

accommodate it.



Thanks for any help.



Orin Hargraves

(lexicographer)

6 St. Philip's Road

London E8 3BP



100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:14:28 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: The Elusive New England Thick Shake



  David R. Carlson

  34 Spaulding St.

  Amherst MA 01002

 

  In Eastern Mass a frappe is not runny; a milkshake is. In Western Mass, a

  milkshake is thick like a frappe.

 



I've lived in New England for about twenty-four years and have yet to have a

THICK shake anywhere in the area. I originally come from Ohio where a thick

shake meant that you sucked and sucked on a straw trying to get the stuff up

it. When confronted with my first frappe (they told me it was a thick shake)

I was appalled at how runny it was. Sending it back I gave them directions

and told them to put in three scoops of ice cream (some malt, since I wanted

it malted), a drop or two of milk and then put it on the multimixer briefly.

I was told they did as instructed but it still came back runny, though a

little thicker. I told them, "This isn't thick." Thwy wore it was thickest

they'd ever made and were surprised I would complain. Same think all over New

England. I'll be told they've made it extra extra extra thick, and I'll get

something that isn't even remotely thick. I don't think New Englanders know

what a thick shake is? Maybe it has to do with Puritanism and a lack of

belief in excesses. They really think what they'r giving me is thick. I've

had shakes in Western Mass. (the Berkshires, Lenox, etc.) and been told,

"Here it is, really thick just for you," and been given something thicker

than most N.E. frappes, but not even close to a midwestern thick shake. I try

to tell the frappe people that your cheeks have to be sucked in until they

almost don't exist (think Marlene Dietrich posing, but you don't have to have

your back teeth removed), and you have to be turning red with the effort with

a big vein sticking out your neck and even sometimes running up the side of

your head trying to depressurize the straw enough to bring the contents up

it. That is a thick shake. So, to date, my efforts for a thick shake in New

England have been disappointing (and Yes, I've been to the Holy Cow in

Gloucester, MA, and it wasn't thick enough).--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 08:19:57 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: TONICS



 Larry Horn wrote:

 

 Actually, speaking not of chuckholes but of frappes, which David also was,

 I was just in South Station in Boston and was delighted to observe that the

 soft drinks (including iced tea!) for sale at the main snack bar are all

 listed under the general capitalized heading "TONICS". (And cabinets are

 still alive and well in Westerly, R. I., at least as of a few years ago.)

 I wonder what out-of-towners make of it.    --Larry



When I first moved to New England I told someone I was going to the store to

buy a bottle of pop. They had no idea what I was talking about. I explained

and they said what I really wanted to do was go to the store and buy a bottle

of tonic. Somehow, it didn't have the same ring--sounded so medicinal. But,

then, this is where Moxie was invented, and still sold. (Moxie, in case you

don't know, is a chocolate milklike substance that tastes like medicine that

people up here swear is a soft drink.) I went to the store and addition to my

previous elusive search for a thick shake I added an even more elusive search

for a bottle of Barq's Creme Soda.--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 15:04:24 GMT

From:  Harry Dick  h.dick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGNET.AT 

Subject: English Is Tough Stuff



English Is Tough Stuff



This is a prime example of how difficult English is for me to learn.

I am from Austria.



Dearest creature in creation,

Study English pronunciation.

I will teach you in my verse

Sounds like corpse, corps, horse, and worse.

I will keep you, Suzy, busy,

Make your head with heat grow dizzy.

Tear in eye, your dress will tear.

So shall I! Oh hear my prayer.



Just compare heart, beard, and heard,

Dies and diet, lord and word,

Sword and sward, retain and Britain.

(Mind the latter, how it's written.)

Now I surely will not plague you

With such words as plaque and ague.

But be careful how you speak:

Say break and steak, but bleak and streak;

Cloven, oven, how and low,

Script, receipt, show, poem, and toe.



Hear me say, devoid of trickery,

Daughter, laughter, and Terpsichore,

Typhoid, measles, topsails, aisles,

Exiles, similes, and reviles;

Scholar, vicar, and cigar,

Solar, mica, war and far;

One, anemone, Balmoral,

Kitchen, lichen, laundry, laurel;

Gertrude, German, wind and mind,

Scene, Melpomene, mankind.



Billet does not rhyme with ballet,

Bouquet, wallet, mallet, chalet.

Blood and flood are not like food,

Nor is mould like should and would.

Viscous, viscount, load and broad,

Toward, to forward, to reward.

And your pronunciation's OK

When you correctly say croquet,

Rounded, wounded, grieve and sieve,

Friend and fiend, alive and live.



Ivy, privy, famous; clamour

And enamour rhyme with hammer.

River, rival, tomb, bomb, comb,

Doll and roll and some and home.

Stranger does not rhyme with anger,

Neither does devour with clangour.

Souls but foul, haunt but aunt,

Font, front, wont, want, grand, and grant,

Shoes, goes, does. Now first say finger,

And then singer, ginger, linger,

Real, zeal, mauve, gauze, gouge and gauge,

Marriage, foliage, mirage, and age.



Query does not rhyme with very,

Nor does fury sound like bury.

Dost, lost, post and doth, cloth, loth.

Job, nob, bosom, transom, oath.

Though the differences seem little,

We say actual but victual.

Refer does not rhyme with deafer.

Foeffer does, and zephyr, heifer.

Mint, pint, senate and sedate;

Dull, bull, and George ate late.

Scenic, Arabic, Pacific,

Science, conscience, scientific.



Liberty, library, heave and heaven,

Rachel, ache, moustache, eleven.

We say hallowed, but allowed,

People, leopard, towed, but vowed.

Mark the differences, moreover,

Between mover, cover, clover;

Leeches, breeches, wise, precise,

Chalice, but police and lice;

Camel, constable, unstable,

Principle, disciple, label.



Petal, panel, and canal,

Wait, surprise, plait, promise, pal.

Worm and storm, chaise, chaos, chair,

Senator, spectator, mayor.

Tour, but our and succour, four.

Gas, alas, and Arkansas.

Sea, idea, Korea, area,

Psalm, Maria, but malaria.

Youth, south, southern, cleanse and clean.

Doctrine, turpentine, marine.



Compare alien with Italian,

Dandelion and battalion.

Sally with ally, yea, ye,

Eye, I, ay, aye, whey, and key.

Say aver, but ever, fever,

Neither, leisure, skein, deceiver.

Heron, granary, canary.

Crevice and device and aerie.



Face, but preface, not efface.

Phlegm, phlegmatic, ass, glass, bass.

Large, but target, gin, give, verging,

Ought, out, joust and scour, scourging.

Ear, but earn and wear and tear

Do not rhyme with here but ere.

Seven is right, but so is even,

Hyphen, roughen, nephew Stephen,

Monkey, donkey, Turk and jerk,

Ask, grasp, wasp, and cork and work.



Pronunciation -- think of Psyche!

Is a paling stout and spikey?

Won't it make you lose your wits,

Writing groats and saying grits?

It's a dark abyss or tunnel:

Strewn with stones, stowed, solace, gunwale,

Islington and Isle of Wight,

Housewife, verdict and indict.



Finally, which rhymes with enough --

Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?

Hiccough has the sound of cup.

My advice is to give up!!!



Harry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 10:55:31 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: In search of homophones



 

  Can anyone direct me to a fairly complete list of American English

  homophones? One that could be downloaded would be ideal, but a

  paper list would do. I'm trying to cut down the size of a sound file of

  recorded pronunciations that has grown far beyond our ability to

  accommodate it.

 

  Thanks for any help.

 

  Orin Hargraves



The archives of TESL-L (ESL discussion list) have an excellent list

of English homophones. I don't have the list address handy (you

have to go through the listserv), but I suspect someone else on

ADS-L might.



Terry





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 17:33:31 -0500

From:  shodell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AURORA.LIUNET.EDU

Subject: queries



In a reference I can no longer identify, I recall coming across

an assertion that the accent with which East Indians speak

english arose as a result of the teachers of english in India

during the major period of British colonialism there were from

Wales. As a result, Indians were originally taught english with

a Welsh accent, a happenstance of linguistic accidnet perpetuated

through succeeding generations. Is ther any truth to this? Does

anyone out there know the origins of this?



Further -- are there any studies on characteristics of national

accents in foreign tongues (eg. is there a relationship between

the characteristic accent with which Italians speak english and,

say, the way in which they might speak Russian; or the English

person's accent in speaking Spanish or in speaking French, for

instance).



FINALLY -- a medico-linguistic query. In older medical text-

books which listening to the chest with a stethoscope, the

physician is instructed to tell the patient to enunciate

"ninety-nine." This actually makes very little sense. The

origin apparently is from an early translation from the German in

which the German term-equivalent used in the original text for

what was translated as "ninety-nine" does involve strong

expirations and so is a useful tool in examination. Again --

does anyone out there have any info on this?



To complicate things further -- I am a biologist and not a

linguist and am NOT on this list! So I would greatly apprciate

it you could communicate with me directly:

        SHODELL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AURORA.LIUNET.EDU



Very many thanks for reading this far and for any help you might

be able to offer -- Mike Shodell



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 21:41:48 GMT

From:  Barnhart  Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Words for 1995!



To everyone:



I just saw "marketspace" referring to the commercial cyberspace. I've

entered it in the list for the December meeting in Chicago. When you find a

candidate, please don't sit on it, drop in in the ADS-L hopper and I'll add

it to the list. Or, if you prefer anonymity, send it directly to me.



David Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 19:31:05 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Englished French words



For French words which have been thoroughly converted to English

pronunciation, what about squaredance terms? I don't think it would be

easy to recognize dosey-do, for example, as having once been French.



Considering what the French have done to the pronunciation of "hot dog"

(h, t, and g silent), I don't feel embarrassed about any Americanized

pronunciations of French words.



Dan Goodman



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:25:31 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: "Everyday Use"



In Alice Walker's story, "Everyday Use," the character 'Dee" has changed her

name to "Wangero Leewanika Kemanjo' because she refuses to bear a name given

by "her oppressors." She greets her mother with the phrase, "Wa-su-zo-Tean-o.

" Is there any African source for these? (Are you reading, Salikoko?)

Her mother, who admits having never gone to school, says that she could trace

'Dee' back past the civil war. It is a nickname for 'Dicey.' Is it likely

that an illiterate tradition would use the initialism 'Dee' rather than the

clipping 'Di'?

If there is anyone out there who knows Ms Walker, can you answer this? Was

she aware of the irony in the fact that Turner reported in _Africanisms in

the Gullah Dialect_ that /di/ was a common female "basket name"--a name of Wes

t African origin used only within the Gullah community?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Mar 1995 22:25:49 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: 'see' or 'say'



Has anyone else heard the onset of front tense vowels being lowered beyond

the adjacent lax vowels? In northeast Georgia I hear /i/ realized as [ey],

so that 'see' sounds like 'say'; and /e/ realized as [aey] ([ae] = ash), or

even as [ay], so that 'day' may sound like 'die'. (The area has

monophthongal /ay/, so there is no merger.)

I haven't read Labov's book on sound change, but isn't this in violation of

his principle (if I understand it correctly) that peripheral vowels tend to

move upward?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Mar 1995 to 21 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 11 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. T.E.N.E.T.S.

 2. Creme Soda

 3. 'see' or 'say' (3)

 4. DARE queries--maple seeds

 5. Rabbit = Rodent? (3)

 6. Words for 1995! (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 01:10:58 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: T.E.N.E.T.S.



  In Eastern Mass a frappe is not runny; a milkshake is. In Western Mass, a

  milkshake is thick like a frappe.

 

To this comment, Yvette wrote:



  I've lived in New England for about twenty-four years and have yet to have a

  THICK shake anywhere in the area. I originally come from Ohio where a thick

  shake meant that you sucked and sucked on a straw trying to get the stuff up

  it. When confronted with my first frappe (they told me it was a thick shake)

  I was appalled at how runny it was. Sending it back I gave them directions

  and told them to put in three scoops of ice cream (some malt, since I wanted

  it malted), a drop or two of milk and then put it on the multimixer briefly.

  I was told they did as instructed but it still came back runny, though a

  little thicker. I told them, "This isn't thick." Thwy wore it was thickest

  they'd ever made and were surprised I would complain.



MUCH STUFF CUT. But then...



   and you have to be turning red with the effort with

  a big vein sticking out your neck and even sometimes running up the side of

  your head trying to depressurize the straw enough to bring the contents up

  it. That is a thick shake. So, to date, my efforts for a thick shake in New

  England have been disappointing (and Yes, I've been to the Holy Cow in

  Gloucester, MA, and it wasn't thick enough).--Yvette





So, Yvette, tell us how you REALLY feel about milkshakes in New England.





 G 





leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 01:17:39 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Creme Soda



 I went to the store and addition to my

previous elusive search for a thick shake I added an even more elusive search

for a bottle of Barq's Creme Soda.--Yvette





I may be straying off the reason for this list with the following, but Yvette

does bring up a pertinent regionalism with her creme soda (pseudo) comment.

Red pop is NOT creme soda! Ick.



When we first moved to Cincinnati, I had to make an effort to find real creme

soda, not that red, sweet, stuff like

Barq's. I was a big creme soda fan growing up, but we didn't have anything

like Vernor's (interesting) or Red pop (NOT).



And then there's my first experience eating a "coney dog" after moving here,

especially considering my fond childhood memories of visiting the real Coney

Island with my grandparents when I was younger and sampling Coney Island

chili dogs. Needless to say, the locals who introduced me to Cincinnati

"chili" were surprised at

my disappointment when I saw a Cincinnati coney dog.



I better get off this topic...I'm getting hungry and pushing the language

envelope here g 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 08:54:11 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: 'see' or 'say'



The changes that Bill Smith asked about are part of what Labov calls the

"Southern Shift". The most recent treatment is in his *Principles of

Linguistic Change*, sv Pattern 4 Chain Shift (pp. 208-218).



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:26:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject: 'see' or 'say'



Bill Smith's observations that in the Southern Shift beat sounds like bait and

bait sounds like bite is right on (and he might have observed that bit sounds

a little like beat and bet a little like bait). The problem is in associating

what are traditionally known as tense and lax vowels with the peripheral and

nonperipheral track that vowels follow in chain shifting. In the Southern

Shift, in what Labov identifies as Pattern IV, /iy/ and /ey/ are lowering

along the nonperipheral track and /I/ and /E/ are raising along the peripheral

one.

One must determine the phonetic attributes of sounds which a particular change

may make use of. I assume it is the nonperipheral (lax) onset of the original

diphthings of such items as beat and bait which is latched onto by the

lowering, nonperipheral force (as opposed to the tenser, glide-like aspect of

their second parts. Chapters 5 and 6 of Labov's new Prinmciples of Linguistic

Change will give the details (Blackwell, 1994).

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu,edu

or

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:56:08 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Martinez  MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU 

Subject: Re: DARE queries--maple seeds



  I've been hunting in my memory for what we called maple seeds back in

  the Bronx in the 1930s--we used to open them an put them on our noses too.

  I'm not sure, but I thin it was pol(l)y noses or could it have been

  pol(l)wogs? Is there anybody else around from that time and place?



  Francine Frank

  fwf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax.albany.edu

  University at Albany, SUNY

Hi Francine. I grew up in NYC in the 60's and we called them pol(l)y noses.

I've also heard them called pol(l)ywogs.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:31:59 -0800

From:  Information Services  kpmglib[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Rabbit = Rodent?



I'm involved in a discussion regarding whether or not rabbits are

rodents. My understanding is that the word "rodent" was derived from the

French "rodere" (to gnaw), and can correctly be used to describe any of

the order Rodentia *or* the order Lagomorpha (which includes rabbits), as

well as various small, gnawing mammals (such as the shrew). However,

I've also seen the word used as a taxon to describe members of the order

Rodentia exclusively.



Can anyone provide an authoritative definition, and/or information

regarding this word's etymology? I'd be most appreciative.



RES



KPMG Peat Marwick           |         Los Angeles

Information Services         |         California, U.S.A.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 12:45:44 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



Welsh rodent?





(sorry. beth)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 09:47:20 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Words for 1995!



On the same topic:

I recently saw a sign on a "pre-manufactured" i.e. modular home on a display

lot. A huge banner was spread across one of the homes with the word:

Garagable!

Apparently to indicate that that particular could be ordered with an optional

garage. (Seen in Monroe, WA)

Allen Maberry

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu





On Tue, 21 Mar 1995, Barnhart wrote:



  To everyone:

 

  I just saw "marketspace" referring to the commercial cyberspace. I've

  entered it in the list for the December meeting in Chicago. When you find a

  candidate, please don't sit on it, drop in in the ADS-L hopper and I'll add

  it to the list. Or, if you prefer anonymity, send it directly to me.

 

  David Barnhart

  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 15:04:08 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Words for 1995!



Garagable? not garageable? Both the orthography/phonology mapping and the

morphology/semantics mapping strike me as being rather counterintuitive. I'd

expect a car to be garageable, not a house to be garagable. But, as they say,

that's me.



  Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 15:09:46 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 'see' or 'say'



William H. Smith reported Georgia vowel variation such that "see" becomes

/sai/ and "say" becomes /saei/, where ae=ash. I thought I heard sg.

similar from my niece in Atlanta and from others, but the onset was

closer to schwa or [^], in any case more retracted from what Bill reports.

I've heard this from Texans too. I wonder if we are hearng the same

thing but differing in how we might transcribe it, or is it simply a

different phenomenon?



(Pardon my syntax in this post. Brain meltdown.)



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Mar 1995 16:20:15 MST

From:  Jim Venis  jimv%ccmailgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IHS.COM 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



   Rabbits are not rodents. They are lagomorphs. --Jim





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Rabbit = Rodent?

Author: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu  at Internet

Date:  3/22/95 4:14 pm





I'm involved in a discussion regarding whether or not rabbits are

rodents. My understanding is that the word "rodent" was derived from the

French "rodere" (to gnaw), and can correctly be used to describe any of

the order Rodentia *or* the order Lagomorpha (which includes rabbits), as

well as various small, gnawing mammals (such as the shrew). However,

I've also seen the word used as a taxon to describe members of the order

Rodentia exclusively.



Can anyone provide an authoritative definition, and/or information

regarding this word's etymology? I'd be most appreciative.



RES



KPMG Peat Marwick           |         Los Angeles

Information Services         |         California, U.S.A.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Mar 1995 to 22 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 9 messages totalling 301 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. 'see' or 'say'

 2. rabbit/rodent

 3. Rabbit = Rodent?

 4. Grammar Books (2)

 5.  No subject given 

 6. Words for 1995!

 7. Picayune (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 00:24:30 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: 'see' or 'say'



My familiarity with the Northern Cities Shift is merely anecdotal,

based on eaves dropping in airports. In that regard, I came across an

utterance that is emblematic of what Labov describes as the low vowel

part of the shift in the north. As I was awaiting a flight, I overheard

not entirely unconsciously (is surreptitious listening unethical or illegal?)

two gentlemen talking and one, bragging or bemoaning exploits of the day

prior said, "Last night I lost my wallet in the bar." His vowels in the

first (last), fourth (lost), and sixth word (wallet) of this sentence

were all fronted from what are their cardinal positions (at least for me)

in Gen'ral Umurican.



My experience with the so-called Southern Vowel Shift is more direct,

and I suspect I may be undergoing it myself. I find it easier and easier

to pronounce the accusative form of the first person personal pronoun

with a mid front vowel in contrast with the high front vowel it became

as a result of the GVS. I hear this change all around me. But the

third person singular nominative form {he} does not seem to be affected

so. And many other words don't either.



I could run through many other examples, but I really have some questions

here. First, what does this example say about the Neo-Grammarian

dictum about the irreversibility of sound change? {me} was [me] then

became [mi] and now is [me] again?



The first time I talked to students about the SVS, a student

asked what I first reacted to as a stupid naive question but which I have

since come to see as crucial in this case. We were working through the

exercises in Walt's book on these contemporary vowel shifts, and

a student asked, "How are we supposed to know what the underlying

vowel is to apply the rule to?" (Extreme paraphrase from memory).

I said something like, "Well, you just know." And I went on about how

we have real time evidence that people pronounced

this pronoun with a high front vowel but that now some people used a

mid front vowel and blah blah blah.



Now I question the nature of this evidence. First, as I understand it,

Labov's work here seems to posit a homogeneous speech community that

has since diverged in accord with these shifting patterns. Where is the

evidence that the community was homogenous? What looks like change

and an actuation problem may not be that at all. It may be the case

that we have a continuity of several varieties all along (like for

400 years) and social scientists are simply now becoming aware of

that fact and are trying to explain it in the context of a bad

paradigm (i.e., XXXXXXX). It may be that some people said

[me] and never [mi] all the way back.



The other point I wish to raise is that this so-called

vowel shift may be simply a lexical change, that via

lexical diffusion may be later interpreted as a chain shift.

To use the introspective paradigm (I am my best informant,

if we can trust Noam), for me--which may phonetically be sometimes

[me] for me, but only variably--{we} and {he} are still [wi] and

[hi] for me. More importantly, others whom I have heard say [me]

for {me} show NO CHANGE WHATSOEVER in other areas of the pronominal

system in regards pronunciaton.



What Labov claims to be a vowel chain shift on the basis of limited

evidence provided to him by various students, I would suggest, might

be limited lexical change or a misinterpretation based upon lack

of appropriate historical evidence. Certainly, any such claims

must be supported by more quantitative evidence than is provided

in the 91 article or the most recent tome.

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 06:33:12 -0600

From:  Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU 

Subject: rabbit/rodent



Among gardeners of my stripe (not real professional--love it,

and do it when there's time), a rodent is any mammalian

garden pest. Rabbits too. I doubt, tho, that I would

buy a rodent trap for rabbits. The meaning gets more specific

on a commercial package.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other."

                        -Clifford Geertz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:24:07 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



I can't be authoritative--I'm not a systematic biologist--but

I wouldn't use "rodent" for "rabbit." But that may be a side-effect

of a college degree and an aunt who teaches biology. My only strong

feeling is that derivation isn't usually relevant to current meaning.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 09:29:32 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Grammar Books



It's book order time for fall semester, and once again I'm faced with the

problem of choosing a book for Descriptive English grammar, a junior-level

course populated mainly by English-Ed majors. I've taught it every fall

for the past five or so years now and have yet to find a book I really like.

The one I loved when I taught the course a couple of times a long time ago

has long been out of print: LaPalombara. The books I've used since then

are Kolln (not bad -- I may return to it someday, especially having

discovered that one thing I disliked about it could have been solved by

changing the order of the chapters -- I started using it with 3rd ed. and

later saw a copy of the 2nd ed., which had a much more logical arrangement);

Stageberg (too skimpy); Kaplan (an utter disaster -- started out fine but

quickly became extremely confusing to the students -- I ended up telling

them to forget the book and spent every weekend the rest of the semester

making handouts to use instead of a textbook); Klammer & Schulz (decent

enough that it's the only book I've used two years in a row, but I'm not

wild about it -- it's a bit boring and a bit skimpy).



Sitting on my desk right now as possibilities are Marilyn Silva's _Grammar

in Many Voices_ and Dorothy Sedley's _Anatomy of English_. Have any of you

used either one of these books? If so, how did it go?



My goals in teaching the course are to give the students an idea of what

grammar is and some details of how English grammar in particular works and

to get them interested in something other than their clothes, their hair,

and their dates. *In general* (with notable exceptions, of course), the

students who take this course display little interest in anything other

than their social lives. I'd like to show them that analyzing English

grammar is fun.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:12:00 EST

From:  "Dennis.Preston"  22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU 

Subject:  No subject given 



 

  Bill Smith's observations that in the Southern Shift beat sounds like bait a

  bait sounds like bite is right on (and he might have observed that bit sound

  a little like beat and bet a little like bait). The problem is in associatin

  what are traditionally known as tense and lax vowels with the peripheral and

  nonperipheral track that vowels follow in chain shifting. In the Southern

  Shift, in what Labov identifies as Pattern IV, /iy/ and /ey/ are lowering

  along the nonperipheral track and /I/ and /E/ are raising along the peripher

  one.

  One must determine the phonetic attributes of sounds which a particular chan

  may make use of. I assume it is the nonperipheral (lax) onset of the origina

  diphthings of such items as beat and bait which is latched onto by the

  lowering, nonperipheral force (as opposed to the tenser, glide-like aspect o

  their second parts. Chapters 5 and 6 of Labov's new Prinmciples of Linguisti

  Change will give the details (Blackwell, 1994).

  Dennis Preston

  22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu,edu

  or

  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 12:00:27 -0600

From:  nourou yakoubou  bf9nmy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grammar Books



On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



  It's book order time for fall semester, and once again I'm faced with the

  problem of choosing a book for Descriptive English grammar, a junior-level

  course populated mainly by English-Ed majors. I've taught it every fall

  for the past five or so years now and have yet to find a book I really like.

  The one I loved when I taught the course a couple of times a long time ago

  has long been out of print: LaPalombara. The books I've used since then

  are Kolln (not bad -- I may return to it someday, especially having

  discovered that one thing I disliked about it could have been solved by

  changing the order of the chapters -- I started using it with 3rd ed. and

  later saw a copy of the 2nd ed., which had a much more logical arrangement);

  Stageberg (too skimpy); Kaplan (an utter disaster -- started out fine but

  quickly became extremely confusing to the students -- I ended up telling

  them to forget the book and spent every weekend the rest of the semester

  making handouts to use instead of a textbook); Klammer & Schulz (decent

  enough that it's the only book I've used two years in a row, but I'm not

  wild about it -- it's a bit boring and a bit skimpy).

 

  Sitting on my desk right now as possibilities are Marilyn Silva's _Grammar

  in Many Voices_ and Dorothy Sedley's _Anatomy of English_. Have any of you

  used either one of these books? If so, how did it go?

 

  My goals in teaching the course are to give the students an idea of what

  grammar is and some details of how English grammar in particular works and

  to get them interested in something other than their clothes, their hair,

  and their dates. *In general* (with notable exceptions, of course), the

  students who take this course display little interest in anything other

  than their social lives. I'd like to show them that analyzing English

  grammar is fun.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 





    I am currently using Dorothy Sedley's Anatomy of English, and I

like it. My students enjoy the class, but do not seem to like the way

chapters are structured in the book.



    Nourou M. Yakoubou

    Chicago State University

    9501 S. King Drive

    Chicago, IL 60628

    (312) 995-2189/2539

    bf9nmy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uxa.ecn.bgu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 10:59:46 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Words for 1995!



Larry,

That is what struck me as well. Someone may have pointed out the spelling

problem as I didn't notice the sign this week. The semantics are probably

more significant. Is this an isolated case or is -able taking on a new

function?

I have seen so much idiosyncratic orthography lately that

it is impossible to even remember all of it. Our local high school did

have a banner a couple of years back proclaiming "We love are Turks" in

honor of the football team.

Allen





On Wed, 22 Mar 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



  Garagable? not garageable? Both the orthography/phonology mapping and the

  morphology/semantics mapping strike me as being rather counterintuitive. I'd

  expect a car to be garageable, not a house to be garagable. But, as they say,

  that's me.

 

    Larry

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 15:17:06 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Picayune



Does the reply in the following exchange (from another list) surprise

anyone as much as it does me? I've known the word, in the meaning "petty,

nit-picking," at least since my undergrad days in Ohio. Is it regional?

Generational? Is there anyone on this list who hasn't heard it?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 23 Mar 1995 13:34:11 -0500

From: Matthew Cottle - U. of Idaho  cottle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uidaho.edu 

To: Multiple recipients of list  cfrnet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu 

Subject: Re: Proposal Summaries





On Thu, 23 Mar 1995, Susan Flaherty wrote:



   Every grants officer I've ever talked to about this says this

  approach is just fine, and generally seemed to consider it a

  somewhat annoying, picayune question. Every consultant I've asked

  has basically said the same thing. The only people who've had any

  problem with repeating language in a summary have been volunteers

  and fellow staff. Which means that on several ocassions I've

  presented my opinions and then gracefully said, "Sure, I can do that."



Susan: That's for a new word for today! I had to go to a dictionary to

look up "picayune." Does this mean that New Orleans' daily newspaper,

the Times Picayune, is worth only a half-dime?



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Matthew S. Cottle       As of March 28:

 University of Idaho      School of Engineering and Applied Science

 College of Engineering    Princeton University

 COTTLE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIDAHO.EDU       cottle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]princeton.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Mar 1995 22:43:19 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Picayune



I've known the word forever too, but I always did wonder why they named a

newspaper after it. After all, we don't have the Nashville Nitpicker.



 Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Mar 1995 to 23 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Picayune (3)

 2. Grammar book

 3. new count noun

 4. picayune

 5. Grammar Books

 6. Place names



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 05:14:38 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Picayune



  anyone as much as it does me? I've known the word, in the meaning "petty,

  nit-picking," at least since my undergrad days in Ohio. Is it regional?

  Generational? Is there anyone on this list who hasn't heard it?



Maybe generational, but apparently not regional. I've known the word all

my life, most of which has been lived in Mississippi.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 07:14:36 -0600

From:  wachal robert s  rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU 

Subject: Grammar book



A colleague whom I much respect tried Sedley and hated it.

Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 11:12:45 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: new count noun



Hardee's marquee (Georgetown Square, Ft. Wayne, IN)



Fish

Md Fry

Md Drink

$2.99



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 13:22:05 -0600

From:  Tom Klingler  klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAILHOST.TCS.TULANE.EDU 

Subject: picayune



I decided to call the New Orleans Times-Picayune to find out why they

adopted such an odd name. The answer is as follows: When the paper began

publishing in 1837, it sold for six and a quarter cents, approximately the

value of an old Spanish coin which had been known as a picayune. In the

years that followed, only the name remained the same--the paper now sells

for a whopping fifty cents.



Tom Klingler

Tom Klingler

Assistant Professor

Department of French and Italian

Tulane University

New Orleans, LA 70118

(504) 865-5115 (office)

(504) 865-8020

Email: klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 16:47:16 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grammar Books



I found the last editon of Kolln to have a lot of editorial problems,

e.g., sometimes the answers in the back (for the exercises) were not the

right answers. And some of the sentence examples were things nobody

would say or write in a million years.



Tim F



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:07:57 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Picayune



I recall 'picayune' from the 1940s and 1950s. In Texas.

    Idle curiosity got the better of me, and I looked in an 1875

Noah Webster's dictionary:

  Picayune. n. [from the language of the Caribs.]

  A small coin of the value of 6-1/4 cents.



I also remember wondering about the term back then. Lotta little

picayune details in etymologies. This sentence would have a different

connotation, for me, with the word 'picky'. Picayuneness isn't necessarily

picky in my personal lexicon. Definitely not a new word.

For whatever this is worth.         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 14:20:54 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Picayune



People who have head lice must pick nits (louse eggs) if they can't

get to an apothecary and purchase a better solution.



Nit-picking has been around a long time, as long as cooties have been

around. A lot longer than 'picayune',whether as a noun, an adjective,

or the name of a newspaper.

I've heard people say 'nit-picky', an unsurprising derived form.

                   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Mar 1995 23:54:00 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Place names



Sing Sing prison is located in Ossining, New York. Is there any connection

between the name Sing Sing and the name Ossining? What is their etymology?



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Dept. of Modern Languages and Linguistics, Morrill Hall

Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Mar 1995 to 24 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 8 messages totalling 151 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ADS-L Digest - 22 Mar 1995 to 23 Mar 1995

 2. Words of the 20th Century

 3. Ossining / Sing Sing

 4. picayune

 5. Rabbit = Rodent?

 6. Grammar Books (2)

 7. had the biscuit



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 09:12:45 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 22 Mar 1995 to 23 Mar 1995



 Does the reply in the following exchange (from another list) surprise

 anyone as much as it does me? I've known the word, in the meaning "petty,

 nit-picking," at least since my undergrad days in Ohio. Is it regional?

 Generational? Is there anyone on this list who hasn't heard it?

 

 Peter McGraw

 Linfield College

 McMinnville, OR



Wasn't there a brand of cigarettes in the 1940's called Picayunes?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 17:26:52 GMT

From:  Barnhart  Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Words of the 20th Century



    Last winter in San Diego "leaked" to some friends over dinner that I was

compiling informally a list of the most significant words of the 20th

Century. Some of the words will be obvious (e.g. computer, Internet, etc.);

some (particularly those from the earlier part of the Century) might not be

so obvious. A sampling of the postprandial suggestions were: tank (the

military kind), automat, commie, polio, sulfa drug, pop (or soda), hero (as

in the sandwich), moonshine, plane (as in airplane), and beatnik.

    What are your candidates? Be sure to differentiate the "Words Of the

Century" from "Words for 1995." The latter are for the next December

meeting.

    SEND CANDIDATES TO: Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 12:01:52 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Ossining / Sing Sing



Wayles Brown asks:

  Sing Sing prison is located in Ossining, New York. Is there any connection

  between the name Sing Sing and the name Ossining? What is their etymology?



That's my cue to pull out "A Concise Dictionary of American Place-Names" by

George R. Stewart (Oxford 1970).



    OSSINING Algonquian `stone(s)-little-at'.



    SING SING From Algonquian `stone(s)-little-at' (cf. Ossining),

    developed by humorous folk-etymology from an original ASSIN-IS-ING.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 12:02:41 -0800

From:  Anton Sherwood  dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM 

Subject: picayune



Tom Klingler wrote:

  I decided to call the New Orleans Times-Picayune to find out why they

  adopted such an odd name. The answer is as follows: When the paper began

  publishing in 1837, it sold for six and a quarter cents, approximately the

  value of an old Spanish coin which had been known as a picayune. In the

  years that followed, only the name remained the same--the paper now sells

  for a whopping fifty cents.



And what would a collector pay for such a coin now?



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 16:12:07 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



On a related topic, at least pragmatically, we have words in English which

have no fixed referent per se except that they be given one ad hoc at the

moment of utterance, and which are really nothing but fossilized worldview

attitudes. I refer to *weeds*, *pests* and *vermin*. Since I use these in

my Intro to Language class, I wonder if anyone can come up with others.



                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 16:25:46 -0800

From:  Dan Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grammar Books



Last year I taught Modern English Grammar for the first time since 1971,

using Marilyn Silva's _Grammar in Many Voices_. [How? Using her last

draft before publication. Maybe I should add that I'm her husband! So

consider the source!]



Anyway, I found it to be an excellent book for teaching students to actually

DO grammar rather than just teaching them ABOUT it. The students in the top

half of the grades got extremely enthusiastic (even complaining about how it

had WRECKED their reading skills for other classes, since they were

unconsciously analyzing rather than reading for content the way they were

supposed to!) -- and the bottom half, well, I suppose their social life

was much more intriguing to them. I recommend it for its non-theoretical

and surface-structure approach. Plus, after only two months in publication

it is already the top seller for its publisher, the NTC Publishing Group,

for all its titles.

                            -- Moonhawk (%- )

   "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and 

   the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" 

                  -- McCartney/Lennon 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 18:44:44 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grammar Books



  Anyway, I found it to be an excellent book for teaching students to actually

  DO grammar rather than just teaching them ABOUT it. The students in the top



I'm glad to hear this -- even from a possibly biased source. :-)  Friday

afternoon I had to stop swinging through the triangle on my desk of Sedley,

Silva, and Klammer/Schulz and choose one. I picked up the pen to write down

Klammer/Schulz, thinking that at least I knew it was usable, having used it

twice before, but suddenly I wrote down Silva instead.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Mar 1995 16:01:35 -1000

From:  Terry Pratt  tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UHUNIX.UHCC.HAWAII.EDU 

Subject: had the biscuit



To my surprise I am unable to locate the phrase HAD THE BISCUIT, usually

in some utterance such as "Well, that engine's had the biscuit" (ie is

'dead', finished, kaput, it is an un-engine), in any source available to

me at the moment. TAKE THE BISCUIT, yes, as in 'take the cake, if that

don't beat all' etc. Yet I, a Canadian currently sabbaticking in

Paradise, have known that phrase all my life, and so have others I have

asked. Any help here? Refers to last communion wafer of dying person?

I want to answer a query on the source of this phrase from a member of

the, hem hem, my public.

Terry Pratt

University of Prince Edward Island

University of Hawaii at Hilo, pro tem.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Mar 1995 to 25 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 95 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Words of the 20th Century

 2. had the biscuit

 3. see or say

 4. Creme Soda



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Mar 1995 16:31:36 -0500

From:  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: Words of the 20th Century



Is it that time already? Millennial fever will soon engulf our thoughts. But

good for you, David, for issuing the call.

 I remember a couple of years ago Dennis Baron saying there should be an ADS

New Word of the Century, as well as New Word of the Year, when the

appropriate meeting rolls around. Good idea, which ties in very well with

David's. But - when will be the appropriate meeting? If we're with LSA, which

meets in January, would that be January 2000, or January 2001?

 - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Mar 1995 15:47:22 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: had the biscuit



In another, fairly respectable conference, about a year ago I learned of a

"game" played at English boys schools that might explain the phrase "had the

biscuit." It's an extremely vulgar game, so vulgar in fact, I'm not sure today

whether the author was pulling the conference's collective leg or not.



Those easily offended regarding what teen-age males might do, should not read

further.



The fellow claimed that at the school he attended, they had this game where

they would place a biscuit (which I think can mean cookie in England) in the

center of a group of boys. The last one to ejaculate onto the biscuit, had to

eat it.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Mar 1995 21:38:37 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith"  Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: see or say



Responses to my query concerning the shift in tense front vowels have noted

that it was consistent with Labov's principle of vowel shifts. Actually, I

had started to include a reference to Labove in my posting, but decided not

to in deference to my own ignorance, since I have not yet read his work and

am familiar with it only through references to it at conferences. As I

understand it, in vowel shifts, peripheral (tense) vowels tend to rise and

interior (lax) vowels tend to lower. If ash is interior, then the southern

shift /e/   [Ey]   [aey] is consistent with that principle. However, /i/  

[Iy]   [ey] represents a move back to the periphery. Either I misunderstand

Labov, or my ears are off (either/both of which are likely) or this change is

an exception to Labov's principle. I had hoped to get an answer to which of

these is correct without embarassing myself too much, but no such luck.

Bill smith

Piedmont College

wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Mar 1995 21:57:43 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Creme Soda



 I went to the store and addition to my

previous elusive search for a thick shake I added an even more elusive search

for a bottle of Barq's Creme Soda.--Yvette





I may be straying off the reason for this list with the following, but Yvette

does bring up a pertinent regionalism with her creme soda (pseudo) comment.

Red pop is NOT creme soda! Ick.



When we first moved to Cincinnati, I had to make an effort to find real creme

soda, not that red, sweet, stuff like

Barq's. I was a big creme soda fan growing up, but we didn't have anything

like Vernor's (interesting) or Red pop (NOT).



And then there's my first experience eating a "coney dog" after moving here,

especially considering my fond childhood memories of visiting the real Coney

Island with my grandparents when I was younger and sampling Coney Island

chili dogs. Needless to say, the locals who introduced me to Cincinnati

"chili" were surprised at

my disappointment when I saw a Cincinnati coney dog.



I better get off this topic...I'm getting hungry and pushing the language

envelope here g 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com







-rE



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Mar 1995 to 26 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 11 messages totalling 665 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gesundheit! (4)

 2. creme soda (2)

 3. Rabbit = Rodent? (2)

 4.  No subject given  (2)

 5. had the biscuit



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 01:12:35 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Gesundheit!



Perhaps someone can explain for me this puzzle about Cincinnatians...when we

moved here years ago, I caught on to one of the local idiomatic expressions,

"Please?" for whenever a listener wished to have some-

thing repeated. I learned this term, which I had not heard where I grew up,

comes from the German way of speaking; Germans say, "Bitte?" in the same

situations.



Now, I've long wondered if this is so, why is it that they do NOT use the

term, "Gesundheit"? I can't remember hearing this term since moving to

Cincinnati just, "God Bless You" or "Bless You".  I do remember hearing it,

from time to time growing up in the West. Nothing as frequent as an,

either/or occurence, but often enough to be aware that these were two equally

appropriate forms of expressing concern for another's soul possibly flying out

of their mouth.



Has anyone come across any reason or research into this blatant disregard for

the Teutonic concern for the souls of others?



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Rowrbazzle!



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 05:09:48 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: creme soda



 From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

 Subject: Re: Creme Soda

 

  I went to the store and addition to my

 previous elusive search for a thick shake I added an even more elusive

search

 for a bottle of Barq's Creme Soda.--Yvette

 

 I may be straying off the reason for this list with the following, but

Yvette

 does bring up a pertinent regionalism with her creme soda (pseudo) comment.

 Red pop is NOT creme soda! Ick.

 

 When we first moved to Cincinnati, I had to make an effort to find real

creme

 soda, not that red, sweet, stuff like

 Barq's. I was a big creme soda fan growing up, but we didn't have anything

 like Vernor's (interesting) or Red pop (NOT).



I had exactly the opposite experience after moving to New England. I bought a

can of creme soda began to drink it, and yccch, what is this stuff? How can

anyone drink it? To me red pop in the form of Barq's Creme soda is the real

thing because that's my frame of reference. I'm surprised you couldn't find

Vernor's since that brand of soft drink was sold in southern Ohio. I remember

Vernor's ginger ale.--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 09:47:36 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



Words with no fixed referent, along the lines of "weeds":



enemy

garbage

obvious





Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:05:29 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly  kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



The Cincinnatian says "Please," not "Bitte," though the usage is calqued

 from the German use. No reason to say "Gesundheit," since the identical

context elicits an exact situational equivalent, Bless you! or God bless

you! Perhaps you're really asking the question: why don't Cinci-folk

say "Health!" when someone sneezes. That would be the exact balance for

"Please?"



You may be pleased or distressed to know that the great Meyers

Konversations-lexikon (a century old now) has an article PORKOPOLIS,

discussing Cincinnati and how it came to be so called....



On Mon, 27 Mar 1995, Leo Horishny wrote:



  Perhaps someone can explain for me this puzzle about Cincinnatians...when we

  moved here years ago, I caught on to one of the local idiomatic expressions,

  "Please?" for whenever a listener wished to have some-

  thing repeated. I learned this term, which I had not heard where I grew up,

  comes from the German way of speaking; Germans say, "Bitte?" in the same

  situations.

 

  Now, I've long wondered if this is so, why is it that they do NOT use the

  term, "Gesundheit"? I can't remember hearing this term since moving to

  Cincinnati just, "God Bless You" or "Bless You".  I do remember hearing it,

  from time to time growing up in the West. Nothing as frequent as an,

  either/or occurence, but often enough to be aware that these were two equally

  appropriate forms of expressing concern for another's soul possibly flying out

  of their mouth.

 

  Has anyone come across any reason or research into this blatant disregard for

  the Teutonic concern for the souls of others?

 

  leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

  Rowrbazzle!

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 10:46:24 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Re: Rabbit = Rodent?



More words with no fixed referent:



democracy (how many countries with how many different kinds of government

      have the word democracy in their names)

freedom

good

bad



In fact, any word that refers to something of value can be used by someone

who has power for some audience to name and define: the act of rhetorical

definition. The authority for the reference is merely in the power the

audience bestows on the speaker (typically called "ethos").



Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 17:15:50 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: creme soda



Yvette's reference to "Vernor's ginger ale" reminded me of the passage

in Laurie Colwin's deliciously funny book "Goodbye Without Leaving"

where the narrator describes her onetiime employers, Vernon and Ruby

Shakely (the narrator was briefly a Shakette), clearly modelled on Ike

and Tina Turner. The hilariously despicable Vernon calls it "virginia

ale". If this doesn't strike you as funny, don't read ME, read the BOOK!

(It will. It's also a great read for any fan of doo-wop, R&B & early

rock'n'roll. But beware: you can hardly read it without a turntable.)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:02:30 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Leo Horishny writes,



  Perhaps someone can explain for me this puzzle about Cincinnatians...

  Now, I've long wondered if this is so, why is it that they do NOT use the

  term, "Gesundheit"? I can't remember hearing this term since moving to

  Cincinnati just, "God Bless You" or "Bless You".  I do remember hearing it,

  from time to time growing up in the West. Nothing as frequent as an,

  either/or occurence, but often enough to be aware that these were two equally

  appropriate forms of expressing concern for another's soul possibly flying out

  of their mouth.

 

  Has anyone come across any reason or research into this blatant disregard for

  the Teutonic concern for the souls of others?

 



I grew up in southern Ohio, and if I had stayed there instead of moving

to Missouri and then Georgia before relocating sensibly to north-eastern

Kentucky (Rowan Cty--guess how that should be appropriately pronounced!),

I would be a bona-fide 7th or 8th generation native speaker of the Ohio

Valley dialect (my mom and dad are both). Anyway, credentials out of the

way (but I continue to find my family a wealth of dialect information,

access to which is invaluable), my maternal grandfather, who was born in

1890, always used to respond to a sneeze by others with the phrase

"Gesundheit." He also used to sneeze in a manner that sounded something

like "Ashhellik" and I've wondered what that might mean. The background

of my family, however, I should point out, in not german, but truly

english, with a touch of mayhaps scots and irish, dating to migration

from the 1670's. They moved to Ohio in 1804 from NJ. I suspect that

my grandfather picked up the term from the people he worked with.



I grew up hearing and using the term "gesundheit" to respond to

a sneeze. I would suggest that if you no longer hear the term

in southern Ohio, that fact is indicative of yet another change

indicative of dialect loss and obselescence (sp?), a topic preposed

for this year's ADS meeting by Walt.



Terry



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:48:15 -050

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



te: Mon, 27 Mar 95 22:48:15 -050

From: Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com (Leo Horishny



om: Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com (Leo Horishny

Organization: Productivity OnLin



ganization: Productivity OnLin

Subject: Re: had the biscui



bject: Re: had the biscui

To: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.ed





Message-ID:  6567728.ensmtp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



ssage-ID:  6567728.ensmtp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Priority: norma



iority: norma

X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.



Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.

MIME-Version: 1.



ME-Version: 1.

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCI



ntent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCI

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



ntent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



tent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



ent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi

Those easily offended regarding what teen-age males might do, should not rea



ose easily offended regarding what teen-age males might do, should not rea

further















 Zr



Zr



r







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E0

Spoiler spac



oiler spac



iler spac



ler spac



er spac



r spac



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spac



pac















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Zr



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The fellow claimed that at the school he attended, they had this game wher



e fellow claimed that at the school he attended, they had this game wher

they would place a biscuit (which I think can mean cookie in England) in th



ey would place a biscuit (which I think can mean cookie in England) in th

center of a group of boys. The last one to ejaculate onto the biscuit, had t



nter of a group of boys. The last one to ejaculate onto the biscuit, had t

eat it



t it



 it



it

-- Ji





__________________________________________________________________



________________________________________________________________



_______________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________

Sounds plausible I guess. I remember hearing enough stories about variation



unds plausible I guess. I remember hearing enough stories about variation

of circle



 circle

jerks when I was in my late teens to wonder, "As many of these as are ou



rks when I was in my late teens to wonder, "As many of these as are ou

there, WHO's



ere, WHO's

doing them?" I'm not saying I wouldn't have found myself in a position t



ing them?" I'm not saying I wouldn't have found myself in a position t

participate when



rticipate when

was younger, but I didn't think about these activities nor did any of th





males I knew growing



les I knew growing

up talk about or describe them. I wonder sometimes just how close to 'urba



 talk about or describe them. I wonder sometimes just how close to 'urba

legend' statu



gend' statu

these were.



ese were.



E0



0

No Flame Intended..













Of course, too, until I moved to Cincinnati, the idea of a single sex hig



 course, too, until I moved to Cincinnati, the idea of a single sex hig

school never crossed



_X

my mind either!! How barbaric, how sublime a way to ensure the sexes see eac



 mind either!! How barbaric, how sublime a way to ensure the sexes see eac

other only i



her only i

specific settings and not in an everyday light. I still think it's weird at



ecific settings and not in an everyday light. I still think it's weird at

teenage level to do this



enage level to do this

College level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



llege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



lege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



ege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO

leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



o_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:48:14 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu wrote:



The Cincinnatian says "Please," not "Bitte," though the usage is calqued

 from the German use. No reason to say "Gesundheit," since the identical

context elicits an exact situational equivalent, Bless you! or God bless

you! Perhaps you're really asking the question: why don't Cinci-folk

say "Health!" when someone sneezes. That would be the exact balance for

"Please?"





I see that. You're right, I should have asked why locals don't say,

"Health!". It is still curious to me, although I now understand my comparison

was incorrect, how the one reflexive response is anglicized and becomes a part

of local speech, yet another baldly Germanic term (a conversational phrase?

I'm not sure how to properly refer to these terms in this case) is rarely

heard here in Piggy City.



The Porkopolis moniker comes from the slaughtering concerns here--so many so

that at times in Cincinnati's past there were more pigs than people. They

were commonly driven (herding term driven, not motorized term!) down Spring

Grove Avenue into Kahn's loving embrace exiting the building in a much more

slim and trim fashion

 G . This population disparity occurred not too terribly long ago either, if

I remember correctly. What else was mentioned about the Porkopolis handle?



FYI, atop 2 pillars at a riverside park, are 2 flying pig statues. You can

see them when driving down I-471 from I-71

in downtown Cincinnati. The pillars are crennelated like 2 steamboat

smokestacks, symbolizing the riverboat heritage and the pigs are there to

celebrate the porcine background to the local economy. The wings were just a

touch of whimsy, yet, OH!, the controversy they stirred up! And this was some

time before Wayne and Garth's pet phrase about flying pigs hit the airwaves.



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 22:48:15 -050

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



te: Mon, 27 Mar 95 22:48:15 -050

From: Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com (Leo Horishny



om: Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com (Leo Horishny

Organization: Productivity OnLin



ganization: Productivity OnLin

Subject: Re: had the biscui



bject: Re: had the biscui

To: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.ed





Message-ID:  6567728.ensmtp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



ssage-ID:  6567728.ensmtp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

Priority: norma



iority: norma

X-Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.



Mailer: ExpressNet/SMTP v1.1.

MIME-Version: 1.



ME-Version: 1.

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCI



ntent-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCI

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



ntent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



tent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi



ent-Transfer-Encoding: 7bi

Those easily offended regarding what teen-age males might do, should not rea



ose easily offended regarding what teen-age males might do, should not rea

further



_X



X







 _X



_X



X







 `R



`R

Spoiler spac



oiler spac



iler spac



ler spac



er spac



r spac



 spac



spac



pac















 V



V









The fellow claimed that at the school he attended, they had this game wher



e fellow claimed that at the school he attended, they had this game wher

they would place a biscuit (which I think can mean cookie in England) in th



ey would place a biscuit (which I think can mean cookie in England) in th

center of a group of boys. The last one to ejaculate onto the biscuit, had t



nter of a group of boys. The last one to ejaculate onto the biscuit, had t

eat it



t it



 it



it

-- Ji



_X

__________________________________________________________________



________________________________________________________________



_______________________________________________________________



______________________________________________________________

Sounds plausible I guess. I remember hearing enough stories about variation



unds plausible I guess. I remember hearing enough stories about variation

of circle



 circle

jerks when I was in my late teens to wonder, "As many of these as are ou



rks when I was in my late teens to wonder, "As many of these as are ou

there, WHO's



ere, WHO's

doing them?" I'm not saying I wouldn't have found myself in a position t



ing them?" I'm not saying I wouldn't have found myself in a position t

participate when



rticipate when

was younger, but I didn't think about these activities nor did any of th





males I knew growing



les I knew growing

up talk about or describe them. I wonder sometimes just how close to 'urba



 talk about or describe them. I wonder sometimes just how close to 'urba

legend' statu



gend' statu

these were.



ese were.



_X



X

No Flame Intended..



 Flame Intended..



Flame Intended..



lame Intended..

Of course, too, until I moved to Cincinnati, the idea of a single sex hig



 course, too, until I moved to Cincinnati, the idea of a single sex hig

school never crossed



`zF

my mind either!! How barbaric, how sublime a way to ensure the sexes see eac



 mind either!! How barbaric, how sublime a way to ensure the sexes see eac

other only i



her only i

specific settings and not in an everyday light. I still think it's weird at



ecific settings and not in an everyday light. I still think it's weird at

teenage level to do this



enage level to do this

College level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



llege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



lege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO



ege level is one thing, but not in their formative years, IMHO

leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



o_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.co



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Mar 1995 20:44:27 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: had the biscuit



Watch out, folks!



He posted this only to brag about where he is during the rainy season!

If that don't take the biscuit.

Cheers,

tlc



On Sat, 25 Mar 1995, Terry Pratt wrote:



  To my surprise I am unable to locate the phrase HAD THE BISCUIT, usually

  in some utterance such as "Well, that engine's had the biscuit" (ie is

  'dead', finished, kaput, it is an un-engine), in any source available to

  me at the moment. TAKE THE BISCUIT, yes, as in 'take the cake, if that

  don't beat all' etc. Yet I, a Canadian currently sabbaticking in

  Paradise, have known that phrase all my life, and so have others I have

  asked. Any help here? Refers to last communion wafer of dying person?

  I want to answer a query on the source of this phrase from a member of

  the, hem hem, my public.

  Terry Pratt

  University of Prince Edward Island

  University of Hawaii at Hilo, pro tem.

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Mar 1995 to 27 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 29 messages totalling 738 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"? (12)

 2. Update on S'mores (5)

 3. Prince Charles on English language (2)

 4. p** (2)

 5. early nonce chocolate sandwich

 6. ADS-L: Thanks very much for the help with 'smores' ...

 7. Gesundheit! (4)

 8. S'mores for Wayne? (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 18:40:41 +0300

From:  John Hopkins  John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI 

Subject: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



28 March 1995

Dear ADS-L Readers,



Could anyone help with two U.S. food-related terminology questions for

which I'd need answers by 0800 EST (U.S.) tomorrow? Right after that I

leave for Stockholm to do a U.S. language seminar for Scandinavian FILMNET

translators -- the people who do subtitles for U.S. films and entertaiment

programming on the European FILMNET channel.



I'd asked participants if they had any special questions to be addressed

beyond the regular program. An hour ago I got two questions which I've

never heard of and which are not in any of my slang dictionaries.



The context is from an entertainment-news clip describing the opening of a

'Planet Hollywood' somewhere in California. On the menu is:



   - "smores and Chinese chicken salad"

   - and the term "salad shooter"



1.  What are "smores"?

2.  What is "salad shooter"?

3.  Is Planet Hollywood's chicken salad different from any other?



I'd appreciate any clues you could offer.



Yours,

John D. Hopkins  hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csc.fi 

Lecturer in American Language and Culture

Department of Translation Studies



*************************************************************************

John D. Hopkins (Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csc.fi)           FAX +358-31-2157200

University of Tampere, Finland     Phone +358-31-2156116, or -3460345

*************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 09:50:09 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



salad shooter--is an actual electrical contraption that chops vegetables

and shoots them out of a plastic pipe into whatever you want to shoot them.

 Is it a Presto product? The salad shooter was mercilessly parodied in

Bloom County several years ago.



smores--are a mythical treat said to be made by girl scouts and other

campers who take a graham cracker and load it up with peanut butter, some

marshmallow glop, and a Hershey bar and then heat the pile of yuk until the

chocolate melts.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 09:41:09 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



A s'more is a cookie prepared by roasting a marshmallow over a fire, then

placing the warm squishy result atop a graham cracker along with an appropriate

size of Hershey's chocolate bar segment (not having been a girl scout, I can't

testify reliably as to whether the original version has the chocolate on top of

the marshmallow or between marshmallow and cracker). Then one eats it. One

enjoys it so much that afterward one calls out "S'more". Or if one is more

polite, perhaps "s'more, please". Whence, of course, the name. (I imagine the

unapostrophized spelling indicates lexicalization and/or loss of transparency.

Transparency in the semantic sense, of course, not the physical.) The result

is something like a squishy Mallomar (tm). Anymore these delights are probably

made in the microwave.

  Salad Shooter (tm) is a product regularly advertised on TV commercials. It

appears to be a device into which you shove veggies and out of which emerges a

salad, or at least salad-shaped and salad-sized bits of veggies. I've never

seen one off the screen, so I can't vouch for them personally.

  Can't help you out at all on that particular variety of chicken salad.

Neither of the last two items strikes me as part of the mental lexicon of an

English speaker, although perhaps this could change. S'mores certainly are, at

least for speakers who have been or have known girl scouts or, more generally,

children. I guess we'll have to wait for the S volume of DARE to determine

the geographical range for the item and its hierarchical composition.



          Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 09:53:45 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Aha! Already some regional or social variation detected. I'm unfamiliar with

the peanut butter-bearing s'more, but Wayne refreshes my memory about the need

to heat the Hershey's chocolate along with the marshmallow. Excuse me while I

go brush my teeth.

      Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:14:20 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Well, I thought EVERYONE ate S'mores as a child. (I think I first

had them as a Camp Fire Girl.) To make S'mores, you need



graham crackers

marchmallows

Hershey bars

a campfire



To create them, you put the marshmallows on a stick and toast

them over the campfire, after which you put the toasted (actually,

I like them charcoaled) marshmallows on graham crackers, covering

them with pieces of Hershey and another graham cracker,

snadwich-style.



Eat.



Have some more s'mores.



A salad shooter is an electric device for slicing carots, etc. I don't

own one, have never used one, so perhaps someone else can give

details (how well do they work?).



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:23:44 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: Update on S'mores



I just remembered a variant of s'mores I was introduced to in the

late 60's (the 60's came to Fayetteville, Ark., later than elsewhere):

the chocolate sandwich. To make a chocolate sandwich you need



white bread

Hershey bars

enough p** to get you zonked enough to actually eat white bread



To make the chocolate sandwiches, you



smoke enough p** to get h*** enough to eat white bread, then

break the Hershey bars up

put slices of the Hershey bars between slices of the white bread

eat



sleep, perchance to dream



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:29:11 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Perhaps an Iowa variant:



the hershey's chocolate was melted by the hot marshmallow, which everyone

in my brownie scout troup knew and spelled as marshmellow. One marshmellow,

skewered on a stick from the yard or woods, roasted until blackened and

sliding into the fire, then immediately laid on the graham cracker with

three or four squares of Hershey's. Press the top graham cracker down

on top of the stick and pull the stick out. Most brownies can eat

four.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 09:33:37 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Prince Charles on English language



If anyone has the text of Prince Charles's comments the other day to the

British Council on the future of the English language, I'd like to receive

a copy.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:30:34 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Update on S'mores



Bethany Dumas writes:



 I just remembered a variant of s'mores I was introduced to in the

 late 60's (the 60's came to Fayetteville, Ark., later than elsewhere):

 the chocolate sandwich. To make a chocolate sandwich you need



 white bread

 Hershey bars

 enough p** to get you zonked enough to actually eat white bread



 To make the chocolate sandwiches, you

 smoke enough p** to get h*** enough to eat white bread, then

 break the Hershey bars up

 put slices of the Hershey bars between slices of the white bread

 eat

 sleep, perchance to dream



________________________

Yes, but when B*ll Cl*nt*n was in town and sampled them, he didn't chew.

Alice B. Toklas, where are you when we really need you?



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:42:02 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Update on S'mores



Bethany,

I'm pretty sure the Iowa var of h*** enough is *f***d up enough,

but what h** is p**?



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 10:53:36 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Dear John,

    I consulted two experts on the subjects you raised. A

long-time ex-Girl Scout confirmed my basic intuitions about

    S'MORES: a campfire confection. You roast or toast

    marshmallows on a stick over the fire (maybe there's

    higher technology nowadays). Then you smear them onto

    graham crackers and apply Hershey's chocolate bars,

    which melt on contact with the marshmallow, if done right.

(I had thought peanut butter was present too-- but my informant was

firm on the point that *classic* s'mores involve no peanut butter.)

The word is that they're named after "I want s[ome]'more!"



A worker at Kitchen Bazaar, which is too upscale to sell them, said

    SALAD SHOOTERS are any of a wide variety of slicer/dicer

    machines, usually consisting of a large cylinder with a blade

    inside and a small cylinder from which chopped vegetables

    (cucumbers, carrots, etc.) shoot out. Sort of a cheap, manual

    food processor. I think I've seen them with another cylindrical

    opening on top which you feed the yet-unscathed vegetable thru.

He recommended K-Mart. (Perhaps, in your circumstances, Ikea?)

Since I most uncharacteristically skipped breakfast, it's clear what I

should do next... Hope this helps!

    --peter patrick

    georgetown univ.

    linguistics dept.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:55:54 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK"  DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET 

Subject: p**



pot



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:45:36 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



On Long Island (where I went to summer camp, and where most of the

campers were from), we toasted the marshmallow, and put it and the

piece of chocolate between two graham crackers. I loved them at

the time, and have felt no desire whatsoever to taste "s'mores"

flavored ice cream (quotes because I don't think they can reproduce

the real thing in any cold dessert).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:25:31 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



  smores--are a mythical treat said to be made by girl scouts and other



Not mythical. I've eaten many, many smores.



  campers who take a graham cracker and load it up with peanut butter, some

  marshmallow glop, and a Hershey bar and then heat the pile of yuk until the

  chocolate melts.



But I've never heard of a peanut butter smore. The smores I've eaten

in Mississippi, Alabama, and upstate New York were graham cracker, warm

marshmallow, and hershey bar partially melted because of contact with

the marshmallow. You roast the marshmallow and then put it on top of

the hershey bar, which is on top of a graham cracker. An excellent

dessert!



The name means you always want s'more of them. One time when I was

a college student teaching water skiing on Lake George, NY, my date and

I suddenly realized that as "adults" we could try eating as many smores

as we wanted. We went to a little grocery store in Hague, bought a huge

supply of marshmallows, hershey bars, and graham crackers, canoed to an

island in the middle of Lake George, and ended up getting royally sick

from eating too many smores. But I was ready for s'more within a few

days...

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:20:27 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



The recent kids' movie _The Sandlot_, available on videocassette, has a

sequence where one kid demonstrates the making of a smore to another kid

who, inexplicably and incredulously, didn't know beans about smores. The

sequence begins with the ignorant kid taking a literal reading on "s'more"

and not recognizing it as relexicalized. My kids practically know this

movie by heart, which is why it is so easy for me to recall this sequence.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 11:47:41 CST

From:  Mike Picone  MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU 

Subject: early nonce chocolate sandwich



Bethany Dumas mentioned chocolate sandwiches and pot in Arkansas in the 60's

and 70's (where presumably they didn't inhale before indulging). I know of

a much earlier attestation of this practice (without the pot, I'm sure),

which would probably qualify as a nonce occurence: my mother, who is now

74, as a little girl in Dayton, Ohio, once begged her mother to

prepare chocolate sandwiches for her birthday party. The way she explained

it, she just had it in her head, in typical kid fashion, that this would

be great. Somewhat out of character, her mother, a very strict, no-nonsense

Quaker lady, complied and the chocolate sandwich was born.



By the way, for those who have resided in France or Italy, you know that a

chocolate spread, flavored with hazel nuts, called Nutella, is consumed on

bread in great quantity by young and old alike. It is so popular that I

still haven't been able to figure out why no enterprising person in Oregon,

where hazel nuts abound, hasn't put an American imitation on the market.

Maybe it has something to do with the scarcity of good bread to put it on.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:17:09 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



 (I had thought peanut butter was present too-- but my informant was

 firm on the point that *classic* s'mores involve no peanut butter.)



 

!

     --peter patrick



What do we know? Would they let us in Girl Scouts? Of course, not. I

think that I'd like one--a smore, not a Girl Scout--with peanut butter,

though. In Boy Scouts, all we had was bacon flambe and lacy eggs, although

the crunchy raw potatoes, onions, and carrots served over greasy raw

hamburger half-baked in a wad of aluminum foil under smoldering coals was

always something to look forward to. What was the name of that dish? Mr.

Food should do a special program on it.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:44:56 +0300

From:  John Hopkins  John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI 

Subject: ADS-L: Thanks very much for the help with 'smores' ...



Dear All,

Thanks very much for all the help with 'smores' and 'salad shooters'.

I deeply appreciate it.



Most of the comments received went to the list, so I won't summarize. I

also received about eight directly (not via the list). It struck me that

there was unusual agreement on both terms relative to many that have been

previously discussed on the list.



Still it was interesting that I hadn't heard of "smores", despite not

having been a girl scout. Someone reported it was also a brand name.

Back in my days in Missouri I worked in our family grocery store for 15

years without running across it. I've also in previous incarnations (as

they say in the State Department) worked in several East-Coast summer

camps without having heard it there (they were primarily baseball camps,

though, which may explain it -- though two summers were what used to be

called coed camps).



One of the most interesting comments was a question about whether I never

watched television, i.e. how could I have missed the Christmas-time

commercials for salad shooters that are apparently ubiquitous.



I do watch television, but in Finland where I live. One of our chief

translation problems is in fact references to American cultural artifacts

that derive from commercial advertising, especially TV commercials. We

get the programs themselves (Cosby Show, ER, NYPD, Tonight Show, etc.)

and need to subtitle them, but of course we never get the commercial

advertising that is part of the U.S. broadcasts. Often commercial

language (as apparently with 'Salad Shooter') is picked up by the program

writers and becomes the subject of humorous reference. But since we

don't have the product here and don't ever see the commercials which

defined the terminology, it is virtually impossible to know what is meant

by the terms -- until years later when the term may be published in a

reference book, if it caught on sufficiently.



That is, before on-line referral opportunities like ADS-L in this case.

Not only do I now have working definitions (for everything except the

Chinese chicken salad, in any case) but a good illustration to relay on

the usefulness of internet resources such as this one for working

translators.  Again thanks -- I'll pass on your regards to all in

Stockholm (where it's currently snowing, as here in Finland).



Yours,

JOHN



*************************************************************************

John D. Hopkins (Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csc.fi)           FAX +358-31-2157200

University of Tampere, Finland     Phone +358-31-2156116, or -3460345

*************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 12:33:50 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET 

Subject: Re: p**



Thanks Bethany. How embarrassing. Of course, p**. We always called

it d*** or gr***.





beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 13:14:19 EST

From:  Vicki Rosenzweig  murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET 

Subject: Re: Update on S'mores



Chocolate sandwiches generally are a good snack, and if you're

living someplace where you can get decent bread--I use sourdough--

don't require any intoxicants.



Vicki



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:50:44 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



 Perhaps someone can explain for me this puzzle about Cincinnatians...when we

 moved here years ago, I caught on to one of the local idiomatic expressions,

 "Please?" for whenever a listener wished to have some-

 thing repeated. I learned this term, which I had not heard where I grew up,

 comes from the German way of speaking; Germans say, "Bitte?" in the same

 situations.

 

 Now, I've long wondered if this is so, why is it that they do NOT use the

 term, "Gesundheit"? I can't remember hearing this term since moving to

 Cincinnati just, "God Bless You" or "Bless You".  I do remember hearing it,

 from time to time growing up in the West. Nothing as frequent as an,

 either/or occurence, but often enough to be aware that these were two

equally

 appropriate forms of expressing concern for another's soul possibly flying

out

 of their mouth.

 

 Has anyone come across any reason or research into this blatant disregard

for

 the Teutonic concern for the souls of others?

 

 leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com

 Rowrbazzle!



I grew up in Hamilton! (they officially added the punctuation a few years

ago--as they claim the only town in the world with a punctuation mark as part

of its name), near Cincinnati (both towns founded by by several greats back

grandfather John Cleves Symmes and his partner Jonathan Dayton). You are

correct about the please/bitte connection. It came about from the influence

of the Over the Rhine area of Cincinnati. I was unaware about using please in

this manner not being universal. So, when I first moved to New England I had

gone to dinner with friends and had not heard the waitress and said,

"Please," so that she would know to repeat what she had said. But, she didn't

know that this is what it meant. Instead she said, "Okay, please our special

orders are....."



Gesundheit was used extensively when I grew up in that area (I have asthma

and heard it a lot).



By the way, did you ever read the book Vas You Ever in Zinzinnati? It gives a

lot of interesting information about the early German influence on Cincinnati

(at one point known as the pork capital of the world).



Also, did you know that the first shopping mall was in Cincinnati? Trollope's

(the English writer) mother deserted her family for a time (Trollope was

never the same after this) and moved on her own to Cincinnati and invented

the shopping mall. She then returned to England to hearth and home. But the

damage was already done (to little Trollope and society in general).



And, if you are in Cincinnati, you can visit the house where Harriet Beecher

Stowe actually wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin.



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:00:55 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Terry Irons wrote:





I grew up hearing and using the term "gesundheit" to respond to

a sneeze. I would suggest that if you no longer hear the term

in southern Ohio, that fact is indicative of yet another change

indicative of dialect loss and obselescence (sp?), a topic preposed

for this year's ADS meeting by Walt.



Terry



Well, I can't argue with your family tree. All I can relate are what I've

heard (or not!) around Cincinnati for the past 17 years. I can't remember

hearing Gesundheit since I've moved here. I can't say never, ever of course,

but none that I remember. Of course, the people I've been around here are not

too terribly German...Waspy maybe, but not German.  G 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:05:02 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: S'mores for Wayne?



smores--are a mythical treat said to be made by girl scouts and other

campers who take a graham cracker and load it up with peanut butter, some

marshmallow glop, and a Hershey bar and then heat the pile of yuk until the

chocolate melts.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

_____________________________________________________________________



Jeez, Wayne, tell us how much you LOVE s'mores, hmm?  How unromantic a

description can one coin?  g 



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:11:25 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Update on S'mores



The French have a version of chocolate sandwiches in their pain au

chocolat, a brioche with a bit of chocolate inside.



The modern suburban girlscout of today, who camps out with her troop at the

local Radisson Suites while watching a rented video of Troop Beverly Hills,

makes her s'mores in the microwave (wrapped in wax paper, not glad wrap).

That, anyway, has been my daughter's experience. When she gets home from

middle school this afternoon I'll ask her s'more about it. S'mores, it

seems to me, has been replaced by Puppy Chow, which is a combo of cereal

(Purina chex of some kind?), chocolate, and peanut butter nuked in a big

plastic bowl.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:27:47 -0500

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



 I had asthma and chronic rhinitis myself as a child, so I heard Gesundheit!

from my mother and grandmother a lot. To me it doesn't make sense to say any-

thing else; after all, why not Health! rather than Bless You! I don't want

to be blessed by anyone without my permission, thank you. My grandmother was

half German, half Scottish; she grew up speaking German as a first language

until she was about five(consequently the only German she remembered in later

years was baby German, so she was ashamed to use it with native German spea-

kers), when her family moved to Berkeley, CA so her father could accept a

post in UCLA's Department of Biology; for those of you with accademic expe-

rience in biology, his name was Jacques Loeb. Though a noted biologist, he

is mostly noted for being wrong these days. I'd be curious to know how many

people in my phonetics class, for example, use Gesundheit! and how many use

something else, and whether that has to do with any German ancestry.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 14:57:14 -0600

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



 A salad shooter is an electric device for slicing carots, etc. I don't

 own one, have never used one, so perhaps someone else can give

 details (how well do they work?).

 

My sister, bless her heart, gave us a salad shooter as a Christmas present

some years back. It's a motorized circular grater with a feed tube that

ideally shoots out the vegetables. It's supposed to shred cheese, but when

we tried,the cheese gummed it up--too soft. Carrots--too hard & came out

chunky. It's in a drawer somewhere.

   Lew Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]saunix.sau.edu 

St. Ambrose University

English and Academic Support

Davenport, IA 52803

319 324-8266



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 16:22:40 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: S'mores for Wayne?



 

 Jeez, Wayne, tell us how much you LOVE s'mores, hmm?  How unromantic a

 description can one coin?  g 

 

 leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



I apologize for my foul mood. My wife brought our 18-month-old into my

office this morning as she tried to solve a scheduling problem with a

recalcitrant department in education. I had to put my keyboard on top of

the monitor. There were papers everywhere. The phone was ringing. My

syllabuses for spring quarter were not getting finished. They were here

from 11:00 until 2:00. We had to change a messy diaper on a sheet of 11 x

17 paper. There, I feel better. Want s'more?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Mar 1995 15:58:41 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



I'm tempted to categorize items like "Gezundheit" as something other

than dialect per se. It's part of "manners" and thus subject to trend

shifts that are only partly linguistic. But every social trend has a

large language component, doesn't it. This question raises lots of

interesting side questions.



A side comment on another thread from this List:

Yesterday we found out from the OJ trial that 'upset' is another

word without a specific referent.

                 DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 07:26:02 +0700

From:  "Graham K. Rogers - EGEE"  frgkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAHIDOL.AC.TH 

Subject: Re: Prince Charles on English language



On Tue, 28 Mar 1995 debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu wrote:



  If anyone has the text of Prince Charles's comments the other day to the

  British Council on the future of the English language, I'd like to receive

  a copy.



I wouldn't. As a Briton teaching English, I was dismayed by the reports

of what he said. While I would like better use of English, anyone in

English teaching (especially living abroad) who holds the notion that

"British" or "American" is better needs to look at reality. It is

international (although heavily loaded Stateside these days). That is

the reality and that is what we should teach.



Graham



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Graham K. Rogers

            Faculty of Engineering

            Mahidol University, BANGKOK

            frgkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mahidol.ac.th

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Mar 1995 to 28 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 16 messages totalling 469 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gesundheit! (4)

 2. ADS-L: Help with chicken salad? (2)

 3. Chuck/Potholes (2)

 4. Update on S'mores (2)

 5. ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"? (2)

 6. ADS-L: Thanks very much for the help with 'smores' ... (2)

 7. Words with variable references

 8. Churros (was: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 01:31:47 -0500

From:  Leo Horishny  Leo_Horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POL.COM 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



 To me it doesn't make sense to say any-

 thing else; after all, why not Health! rather than Bless You! I don't want

 to be blessed by anyone without my permission, thank you



Not that I'm trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs or anything, but

the Bless You warning is more apropos than the encouragement Health when it

comes to the real concern with sneezing--that is, the poss-

ibility your soul may exit when you forcibly exhale. I was under the

impression that the concern as to one's soul possibly slipping out was a

European staple, did the Germans have less of a concern as to this meta-

physical weakness?



leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 03:12:37 EST

From:  kim mckinzey  74525.1614[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with chicken salad?



Just joined the discussion. Can't add anything about the s'mores (I used to

love 'em) or the salad shooter, but noticed that no one really responded re

Chinese chicken salad. It's become very popular over the last year or so and

thus more prevalent. My recipe (originally from Hong Kong) is chicken steamed

with ginger, cooled and shredded; blanched almonds, green onions, chopped

lettuce, toasted sesame seeds, and deep fried rice sticks. The dressing is oil,

sugar, and salt. Best salad in the world. There are many many variations

served in restaurants, but they all have the chicken, lettuce, and deep fried

rice sticks. Dressings vary as well. Don't know about the one served at Planet

Hollywood, but I'd bet it's in the same family.



Rice sticks are rice noodles that if boiled end up soft and noodle-like. If

they're deep fried, however, they puff up in a second or two. Much fun to

watch.



Hope that helps.



Rima McKinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 08:47:27 EST

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Is there any relation between CHUCKHOLE and CHUCK Wagon? Or would that be a

fold etymology?

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 10:52:04 -0500

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Update on S'mores



 I just remembered a variant of s'mores I was introduced to in the

 late 60's (the 60's came to Fayetteville, Ark., later than elsewhere):

 the chocolate sandwich. To make a chocolate sandwich you need

 

 white bread

 Hershey bars

 enough p** to get you zonked enough to actually eat white bread

 

 To make the chocolate sandwiches, you

 

 smoke enough p** to get h*** enough to eat white bread, then

 break the Hershey bars up

 put slices of the Hershey bars between slices of the white bread

 eat



Bethany--



While I myself have never gotten high enough to do this (although I did

once polish off an entire jar of Cheez Whiz--I stopped smoking soon after

this, for obvious reasons), I *have* eaten chocolate sandwiches. It's a

French childen's dish called pain du chocolat ("chocolate bread"), and it

consists solely of sections of Hershey bars stuffed into pieces of French

bread. It is much, much better than it sounds.



Have you noticed how much time we spend talking about food on this list?



Stewart



===============================

"I'd like to keep my arms around her forever

 But she wants to be home by ten."

                    --Game Theory

===============================



Stewart Allensworth Mason

 masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu 

PO Box 4056

Portales NM 88130



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 08:00:55 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Wayne,

Wasn't that stuff called "Hobo stew" or something like that? From my

son's Scout days I recall taking some hamburger, cut up potatoes, cut up

carrots and (for the daring) some onion, wrapping it up in several layers

of foil and putting it by the hot coals. By the time dinner came around,

many people were so hungry that they ate theirs a little bit underdone.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



   (I had thought peanut butter was present too-- but my informant was

   firm on the point that *classic* s'mores involve no peanut butter.)

 

   

  !

       --peter patrick

 

  What do we know? Would they let us in Girl Scouts? Of course, not. I

  think that I'd like one--a smore, not a Girl Scout--with peanut butter,

  though. In Boy Scouts, all we had was bacon flambe and lacy eggs, although

  the crunchy raw potatoes, onions, and carrots served over greasy raw

  hamburger half-baked in a wad of aluminum foil under smoldering coals was

  always something to look forward to. What was the name of that dish? Mr.

  Food should do a special program on it.

 

 

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:01:50 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



 Wayne,

 Wasn't that stuff called "Hobo stew" or something like that? From my

 son's Scout days I recall taking some hamburger, cut up potatoes, cut up

 carrots and (for the daring) some onion, wrapping it up in several layers

 of foil and putting it by the hot coals. By the time dinner came around,

 many people were so hungry that they ate theirs a little bit underdone.

 Allen



I honestly cannot remember what we called this dish. Seems to me it was a

"something or other dinner"--a name in keeping with the mod use of

throw-away aluminum foil in the 60s ("It's quilted!"). I keep wanting to

call the concoction a "shepherd's pie," but that is a culinary horror of

another ilk (layers of hamburger, green beans, and mashed potatoes--I can

still see the stain of orange grease in the potatoes).



The Peruvians (who can afford to eat) have a dish called "churros," I

remember, that consists of a piece of bread (that looks like a stick of

corn bread) dipped into a thick chocolate pudding. I'm told that churros

are served in Spain.



Of course, one of the fast-food Mexican restaurants serves a choco-taco,

but I've not had the nerve to order one, what with people standing around

and looking at me and all.



Speaking of french bread filled with chocolate, I remember the "eclairs" we

used to get at the Dunkin' Donuts in Aberdeen, MD. One night, one of the

other dr**k people said that he didn't want to get them any more. They

were like eating a hoagie roll stuffed with filling. O the days of

unlimited saturated fat! What was life without endless steamed broccoli

and fat-free yogurt like? Do you remember?



Time to eat--if you can call it that.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:13:33 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Moved to Berkeley to teach at UCLA?! Wow - and I thought MY commute was long!



The use of "Gesundheit" is certainly not restricted to those with German

ancestry or even to areas with a large population of German descent

(like Cincinnati). It has always been current in my family: my mother is of

English descent and grew up in Texas and Oklahoma, and my father, of Irish

descent, grew up in Iowa. Growing up in California and Oregon, I remember

"Gesundheit" as predominant, with "Bless you!" not unheard of, and I

never noticed any difference later in Wisconsin, Tennessee or Ohio. Only

when I became a New York commuter for six years did I have the experience

(which I marveled at in a city justly famous for rude people) that when

you sneeze in public, invariably some passing stranger says, "Bless you!"

(and never "Gesundheit!").



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Tue, 28 Mar 1995, Christopher R. Coolidge wrote:



   I had asthma and chronic rhinitis myself as a child, so I heard Gesundheit!

  from my mother and grandmother a lot. To me it doesn't make sense to say any-

  thing else; after all, why not Health! rather than Bless You! I don't want

  to be blessed by anyone without my permission, thank you. My grandmother was

  half German, half Scottish; she grew up speaking German as a first language

  until she was about five(consequently the only German she remembered in later

  years was baby German, so she was ashamed to use it with native German spea-

  kers), when her family moved to Berkeley, CA so her father could accept a

  post in UCLA's Department of Biology; for those of you with accademic expe-

  rience in biology, his name was Jacques Loeb. Though a noted biologist, he

  is mostly noted for being wrong these days. I'd be curious to know how many

  people in my phonetics class, for example, use Gesundheit! and how many use

  something else, and whether that has to do with any German ancestry.

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:31:44 PST

From:  "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs,

     CO"  ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM 

Subject: Re: Chuck/Potholes



I think there is a stronger relationship between chuckwagon and upchuck.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 12:00:41 -0600

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with chicken salad?



Our local TGIF (Friday's, a restaurant chain) has Thai Chicken Salad, which

I've seen elsewhere as well. It is as described for Chinese c.s., only with

hot peanut sauce for dipping. Not a bad choice, actually.



As for 'smores, the modern girl scout of today (age 11 3/4) reports that

all your recipes are correct. She usually makes them in the microwave at

home, on the campfire when camping (except when camping at the Radisson, in

which case they send out for pizza and do their nails). Actually, all she

said was, "Kul," but that's what she meant, according to my 5 3/4 year old

son, who can translate preteen speak quite well.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:52:12 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro  david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Thanks very much for the help with 'smores' ...



On Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:44, John Hopkins writes:



  Not only do I now have working definitions (for everything except the

  Chinese chicken salad, in any case) ...



Lettuce (often shredded), chopped or shredded veggies (carrots,

green onions, etc.), rice noodles and/or fried wonton, soy-based

dressing. Oh, and morsels of cold chicken. Granted, not as

tasty as a S'more, but I find it interesting that *no one* had

any comments on this item. It's not that California-specific,

is it?



BTW, not only can you make S'mores in a microwave, you can even

buy them pre-assembled (Keebler?): zip open the plastic wrapper,

pop it on a plate, and zap it. They are, not surprisingly, horrible.

(The homemade zapped ones are not very good, either -- the marshmallow

does not respond happily to microwaving.) There is now a S'more-

flavoured Pop-Tart, and, if memory serves, there is also a S'mores

breakfast cereal.



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:18:57 GMT

From:  Barnhart  Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Words with variable references



There is a very interesting quote in Mencken (4th ed., p 289-90) concerning

variation in meaning, for what it's worth:



If an Englishman reads "The floorwalker says to go to the _notion_ counter,"

he knows at least one word he does not understand. If he reads a speech of

Presiden Roosevelt declaring that "our industries have little doubt of

_black-ink_ operations in the last quarter of the year.' he is at least aware

of a foreign usage, and may be trusted to go off and discover it. But if I

write "The _clerk_ gave a _biscuit_ to the _solicitor_," He will imagine

something precise, if a little odd. The trouble is that, however lively his

imagination, what he imagines may be precise but is bound to be wrong. For

he is confronted with three nouns which mean different things in the United

States and in England.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 15:13:09 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



I agree with Peter's comment below. I have always heard Gesundheit more

frequently than bless you in Oregon. The people who I know, including my

family, are not of German descent.



Jeff





---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 09:13:33 -0800

From: Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



The use of "Gesundheit" is certainly not restricted to those with German

ancestry or even to areas with a large population of German descent

(like Cincinnati). It has always been current in my family: my mother is of

English descent and grew up in Texas and Oklahoma, and my father, of Irish

descent, grew up in Iowa. Growing up in California and Oregon, I remember

"Gesundheit" as predominant, with "Bless you!" not unheard of, and I

never noticed any difference later in Wisconsin, Tennessee or Ohio.



Peter McGraw



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 14:47:59 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Update on S'mores



  consists solely of sections of Hershey bars stuffed into pieces of French

  bread. It is much, much better than it sounds.



I find it hard to believe it can be much better than it sounds since it

sounds wonderful to me.



  Have you noticed how much time we spend talking about food on this list?



This is nothing compared to the food talk on Words-L. Nutella is regular

fare at Words-L ftf gatherings, btw. (It was here that somebody mentioned

Nutella recently, wasn't it, or am I getting my lists mixed up?)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 21:47:54 GMT

From:  Harry Dick  h.dick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAGNET.AT 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Sorry folks,



In Austria and in Germany we say Gesundheit when we are sneezing.

That's all !



ciao, Harry



P.S. I know my english is BAD !



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 18:56:06 -0500

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Churros (was: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?)



On Wednesday, 29 March 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



 The Peruvians (who can afford to eat) have a dish called "churros," I

 remember, that consists of a piece of bread (that looks like a stick of

 corn bread) dipped into a thick chocolate pudding. I'm told that churros

 are served in Spain.



This actually is vaguely related to regional sociolinguistics: Here in New

Mexico, churros are an extremely popular dessert. But here they're thin,

foot-long, star-shaped sticks of sweet dough extruded from a pastry gun,

deep-fried and then rolled in cinnamon and sugar. They're delicious.

However, chocolate makes no appearance with them; they're eaten hot by

themselves. (Churros are popular enough in the Southwest that a

California-based rock band, The Loud Family, released an EP called _Hot

Cinnamon Churros_ a couple years ago.)



Non-residents of New Mexico have to be careful what they order here when it

comes to Mexican food. For example, the word "chile" (the preferred local

spelling) on the menu of a locally-owned restaurant denotes a sort of

not-very-spicy stew containing huge strips of roasted green chile, potatoes

and (sometimes) hamburger or shredded pork. The beans-and-tomato-sauce

stuff is called "red chile" or "chile con carne" if it shows up on the menu

at all. What the local restaurants call a meat burrito involves a

less-liquid filling containing the green-chile-potatoes-meat mixture.

People used to Taco Bell get noticeably agitated when they discover

potatoes in their burritos. It's fun to watch.



Stewart



===============================

"I'd like to keep my arms around her forever

 But she wants to be home by ten."

                    --Game Theory

===============================



Stewart Allensworth Mason

 masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu 

PO Box 4056

Portales NM 88130



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Mar 1995 22:07:42 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Thanks very much for the help with 'smores' ...



David Harnick-Shapiro writes:



 On Tue, 28 Mar 1995 22:44, John Hopkins writes:



   Not only do I now have working definitions (for everything except the

   Chinese chicken salad, in any case) ...



 Lettuce (often shredded), chopped or shredded veggies (carrots,

 green onions, etc.), rice noodles and/or fried wonton, soy-based

 dressing. Oh, and morsels of cold chicken. Granted, not as

 tasty as a S'more, but I find it interesting that *no one* had

 any comments on this item. It's not that California-specific,

 is it?

Not California-specific at all, although the first version of Bam-Bam (or

hacked) chicken I recall (quite fondly, still) was from the Sinopalace in

Berkeley, circa 1970. But there are too many versions to be able to predict

the ingredients of the one in question. My own version (partly adapted from

Claiborne & Lee's Chinese Cookbook) features layers of egg noodles, "hacked"

chicken, and slivered cucumber and a sauce of sesame tahini, chili paste, soy

sauce, rice vinegar, sugar, scallions, oil, and ground Szechuan peppers, all

garnished with fresh coriander. And as far as I'm concerned, I'll have a

second helping of the salad and skip the s'mores, but of course de gustibus...



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995 to 29 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 10 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. s'mores

 2. see or say (2)

 3. Gesundheit!

 4. Ambrosia? (2)

 5. ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?

 6. more on had the biscuit

 7. ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995

 8. prepositions



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 00:42:27 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: s'mores



I was not a girl scout. However, s'mores were a part of my childhood.

Everyone knew how to make them. No peanut butter in the ones I ate. Just

marshballows, hersey bar, and graham cracker. Nowadays you make them in a

microwave. I think kids learn to make them at camp (girl scout camp, boy

scout camp, regular camp, etc.)



--Yvette



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:52:42 +0100

From:  Maik Gibson  llrgbson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]READING.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: see or say



Writing as someone else who hasn't read this stuff, my question would

be: have we ever had a pure [i:] in English? May be we have , but in RP

/i:/ is quite consistently realised as [Iy]. This could be derived, one

 supposes, from a tendency to to make all long vowels and diphthongs

finish with a glide ( at least before another vowel), treating long vowels

in a similar way to diphthongs. Of course, this probably begs as many

questions as it answers!



Maik Gibson



On Sun, 26 Mar 1995, William H. Smith wrote:



  Responses to my query concerning the shift in tense front vowels have noted

  that it was consistent with Labov's principle of vowel shifts. Actually, I

  had started to include a reference to Labove in my posting, but decided not

  to in deference to my own ignorance, since I have not yet read his work and

  am familiar with it only through references to it at conferences. As I

  understand it, in vowel shifts, peripheral (tense) vowels tend to rise and

  interior (lax) vowels tend to lower. If ash is interior, then the southern

  shift /e/   [Ey]   [aey] is consistent with that principle. However, /i/  

  [Iy]   [ey] represents a move back to the periphery. Either I misunderstand

  Labov, or my ears are off (either/both of which are likely) or this change is

  an exception to Labov's principle. I had hoped to get an answer to which of

  these is correct without embarassing myself too much, but no such luck.

  Bill smith

  Piedmont College

  wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 08:49:05 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Gesundheit!



Growing up in New Jersey in an African American family from Florida, I used the

term interchangeably with God Bless You. I do recall that as children when we

pronounced the word, we'd placed an explosive accent on the second syllable so

that the sounded like a sneeze.



bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 10:19:37 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr."  billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: see or say



Generalities just won't do for trying to cope with Labov's *Principles of

Sound Change*. You really have to go and read it to see the complexity of

what he is trying to do. There are several things going on in chain

shifts, and several patterns which include both long and short vowels in

different ways. "Complexity" as a term doesn't really do justice to the

book or set of ideas: I just finished a quarter with the book in a

graduate seminar, and we managed to get just half way through.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 12:34:29 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Ambrosia?



What did you call that stuff that aunts brought to Thanksgiving dinners in

the 60s and early 70s: it was a mixture of jello, canned fruit, some cool

whip, and maybe some coconut all whipped up in a blender.  Sometimes it

was horrible shades of light green. I always lied about how I tried it and

loved it.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 14:57:06 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L: Help with "smores" and "salad shooter"?



Allen (& Wayne):



   Yes, I remember "Hobo Stew"--except, when my mother made it, she called it

"Slumgullion"! Wonder where that came from?



                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 15:05:06 -0500

From:  "Jerry (NMN) Miller"  miller[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWTON.FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: more on had the biscuit



I confess I had never heard "had the biscuit" until now and found the

explanations both fascinating and somewhat disgusting (does that lead us forth

into any connections between "circle jerk," "jerk"--as in, "he's a real jerk"--

and "jerk-off"--as in "he's a real jerk-off"? or would we rather keep it

civilized?)

Anyway, back to the original premise, the expression I have always heard for a

failure or disaster was "had the course" (or perhaps "had the coarse," since I

never actually saw it written out?). Any explanations for the origin of that

somewhat less disgusting (at least that is my fervent hope) alternate?

                jmiller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 17:05:21 -0500

From:  "Holland, Alecia"  aholland.irss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MHS.UNC.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995



Saw this on Bubba-L and thought y'all might know what to make of it.

aholland.irss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhs.unc.edu



... a book that I'm sure you know: Johnny Reb by Bell Irwin

Wiley. In the chapter about how Confederate soldiers entertained

themselves, he

mentions the standing joke of soldiers shouting "here's your mule." I

know this line from the song "Goober Peas." (When the farmer passes, the

soldiers have a rule; to cry out at their loudest, "Mr., here's your

mule.")

What does the phrase mean? Mr. Wiley doesn't explain it, which makes me

wonder if it is impolite



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:01:29 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM 

Subject: prepositions



Does anyone know of a good prescriptive reference book that tells which

prepositions go (or are supposed to go) with which verbs in American

English?



You can reply either to the ads-l list or to me directly at:

    bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]camel.sim.es.com



Thanks,

Bruce Gelder



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 16:36:05 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



Gosh,

  I had forgotten (blocked out) that confection. We did call it ambrosia.



Speaking of another delightful mixture...Does anybody else besides my neighbors

in Chicago call a mixture of sherbet (lime or orange) and ginger ale *frappe.*

Pronounced frap?



BHHudson



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Mar 1995 to 30 Mar 1995

************************************************







There are 14 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ambrosia? (6)

 2. ginger ale & sherbet

 3. ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995

 4. ambrosia

 5. Positive Anymore

 6. watergate salad

 7. Prepositions

 8. boston coolers (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Mar 1995 19:15:23 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling  juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



My aunts always brought "fruit marlo"

"Marlo" must be short for "marshmallow."

Fritz



On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



  What did you call that stuff that aunts brought to Thanksgiving dinners in

  the 60s and early 70s: it was a mixture of jello, canned fruit, some cool

  whip, and maybe some coconut all whipped up in a blender.  Sometimes it

  was horrible shades of light green. I always lied about how I tried it and

  loved it.

 

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 00:05:54 -0500

From:  David Carlson  Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



In "Favorite Recipes" (1975) from Emmanuel Lutheran Church in Norwood MA,

your Ambrosia is called Sea Foam Salad.



David Carlson

Springfield College

Springfield MA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: ginger ale & sherbet



  Speaking of another delightful mixture...Does anybody else besides my neighbors

  in Chicago call a mixture of sherbet (lime or orange) and ginger ale *frappe.*

  Pronounced frap?



i never had g. ale w/ sherbet, but we used to make ginger ale floats

with ice cream and my mom told us they were called "boston coolers"

(upstate n.y.). maybe it was supposed to be sherbet.



lynne

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:45:46 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1995



 Saw this on Bubba-L and thought y'all might know what to make of it.

 aholland.irss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mhs.unc.edu

 

 ... a book that I'm sure you know: Johnny Reb by Bell Irwin

 Wiley. In the chapter about how Confederate soldiers entertained

 themselves, he

 mentions the standing joke of soldiers shouting "here's your mule." I

 know this line from the song "Goober Peas." (When the farmer passes, the

 soldiers have a rule; to cry out at their loudest, "Mr., here's your

 mule.")

 What does the phrase mean? Mr. Wiley doesn't explain it, which makes me

 wonder if it is impolite



I once heard the expression "loping your mule" as meaning male masturbation.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:51:18 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



 Gosh,

   I had forgotten (blocked out) that confection. We did call it ambrosia.

 

 Speaking of another delightful mixture...Does anybody else besides my neighbors

 in Chicago call a mixture of sherbet (lime or orange) and ginger ale *frappe.*

 Pronounced frap?

 

 BHHudson



A private joke among a couple of Catholics I have known (who think of

weddings in terms of the open bar at the reception at an Italian wedding)

refers to this concoction as the "Baptist wedding punch." This stuff is

very frequently served at receptions of all kinds in Central Georgia and is

called "punch" by the people who make it and drink it (with a plate of

cheese straws, divinity, and weird little sandwiches).







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 07:54:20 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



 In "Favorite Recipes" (1975) from Emmanuel Lutheran Church in Norwood MA,

 your Ambrosia is called Sea Foam Salad.

 

 David Carlson



No reference I hope to the castration of Uranus and the birth of

Aphrodite--if so we're back to eating that biscuit.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 02:00:00 LCL

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: ambrosia



well, despite so many people not recognizing the word "ambrosia",

that's the only thing i've ever heard that concoction called in

upstate ny & illinois.



that and jello salad are what my friends and i call "protestant soul

food." (a friend who grew up methodist/lutheran calls it "the food

of my people", so that's how the whole thing got started.)



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 09:19:52 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Positive Anymore



Although I still remember the first time I heard positive "anymore" and

remember wondering why the person who used it was talking in such a strange

way, I had thought since then (mid '60s) that it was on the increase and

that most people had at least heard it by now. They haven't. The topic

arose in my sociolinguistics class this morning, and I was surprised that

approximately 50% of the students had never heard it at all (none of my

students admitted to ever having used it). One student couldn't decide

whether she had or hadn't heard it from her husband, who "is from New

York and says all kinds of strange things." Several students didn't

understand what "anymore" meant in the example sentence I gave them.

They all understood what "I'm not reading many novels anymore" meant but

said that "I'm reading lots of novels anymore" didn't make any sense.

Since my dialect doesn't include positive anymore, I was afraid my example

might be wrong, so I had them look at the examples on p. 296 of Chaika.

They found it funny that she uses asterisks by the double modals on p. 297

(except for the first sentence, which she obviously made an error in --

"can might" for "might can") but that she doesn't put asterisks by

sentences like "Things are getting busier for me anymore." Almost all

of my students would call that sentence non-English but would call "You

might could see him" normal.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 08:25:22 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



That's the stuff.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Thu, 30 Mar 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



  What did you call that stuff that aunts brought to Thanksgiving dinners in

  the 60s and early 70s: it was a mixture of jello, canned fruit, some cool

  whip, and maybe some coconut all whipped up in a blender.  Sometimes it

  was horrible shades of light green. I always lied about how I tried it and

  loved it.

 

 

  Wayne Glowka

  Professor of English

  Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

  Georgia College

  Milledgeville, GA 31061

  912-453-4222

  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 14:51:43 -0500

From:  "Holland, Alecia"  aholland.irss[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MHS.UNC.EDU 

Subject: watergate salad



We called the green jello and whipped cream stuff Watergate Salad in

eastern NC. Alecia



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 16:28:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine  0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM 

Subject: Prepositions



Re: Bruce Gelder's question.

"Words Into Type" contains a section called "The Right Preposition" in a chapter called ""Use of Words."

Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 12:21:01 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: boston coolers



Lynne Murphy wrote on 31 March 1995:



  i never had g. ale w/ sherbet, but we used to make ginger ale floats

  with ice cream and my mom told us they were called "boston coolers"

  (upstate n.y.). maybe it was supposed to be sherbet.

 

  lynne



I have never heard anyone use the word "Boston Coolers" except

members of my family (both maternal and paternal sides), so was

interested to see Lynne's citation. For us, though, (German-Irish,

Cleveland, 1940s-1970s), it referred to a root beer float (with ice

cream, not sherbeRt). It's been a couple years since I've had root

beer now (unknown down under), and a Boston Cooler would really hit

the spot on this sultry late summer day.



Tim Behrend, Asian Languages, University of Auckland

t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]auckland.ac.nz



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 1 Apr 1995 12:54:24 GMT+1200

From:  Tim Behrend  t.behrend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUCKLAND.AC.NZ 

Subject: Re: Ambrosia?



I'm beginning to wonder about Wayne Glowka and his ongoing diatribe

against American basse cuisine. He has in recent days attacked:



    meat in general (I forget the details now, but the discussion

      of some flesh product was making him sick)

    s'mores in all their gooey varieties

    jello salads and ambrosia (sans jello -- only FROZEN coolwhip

      in my family, plus sliced bananas and apples, chopped

      walnuts and maraschino cherries, heaps of shredded

      coconut, and a fortifying splash of almond extract)



What will be next? Chocolate chip sprinkled pigs-in-a-blanket? Dump

cakes? Peanut butter and bologna sandwiches? Pork crackle? Fish

sticks? Goosewhiz lunchtime spread? American cheese? Polish Boys?

French hamburgers? Boston coolers? Ice-cold shandies? A six-pack of

those "full-flavored" Buds? At what point does culinary patriotism

kick in? What American foods *do* you eat, Wayne Glowka?



Tim Behrend

University of Auckland



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Date:  Fri, 31 Mar 1995 22:56:56 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: boston coolers



Re Rootbeer and ice cream:



  We called that drink a purple cow



bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



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End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1995 to 31 Mar 1995

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