There are 17 messages totalling 525 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. GAY (Changes to the English Language) (2)

 2. Question: regional volubility (4)

 3. More on "queer"

 4. Call for papers- GLS conference on discourse

 5. Query: Accent diagnostics

 6. koofer (3)

 7. Addition to Web Pages (2)

 8. China/Albania/Europe

 9. speed

 10. Child of God



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:21:18 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language)



There was an Evergreen Press book of dubious authenticity that contained

references to the "gay life" of prostitutes in late 19th cent. London that

certainly agrees withs Al's information.



Here's something from NYC from the early 60's. A billboard for Vic Tanney

(gyms/muscle building) back in those days of Katy Winters supposedly was

hit with the graffiti "Now I'm Gay and Unafraid," the slogan of Arrid

Extra Dry Roll-On deodorant.



Another reason to have gay connotations for gay -- wonderfully witty humor.



Bill King University of Arizona SLAT Program and I must get back to work.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 29 Feb 1996 23:32:49 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Question: regional volubility



Allan,

    I don't know of any studies on English (though I've often cited

my great-aunt as evidence against the stereotype that Southerners talk

slow -- she was one of the fastest talkers I ever knew), but if my memory

is not too badly off, I think a study was made of two parts of the O'odham

(formerly known by the foreign name of Papago) reservation, and found that

people in one area actually talked slower than those in another part. I

could check on this if you're interested.

    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:18:04 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: More on "queer"



I thought you might find a different

viewpoint interesting. Note that the

final poster uses the phrase

"lesbians and gay men".



--Kathleen M. O'Neill



----Begin Forwarded Message----

 Date:     Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:23:03 -0500

 Subject:   Re: Them hurtin words

 To:      Multiple recipients of list BIFEM-L  BIFEM-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU 

 

 At 10:32 PM 2/28/96, Emily wrote:

    But then again.. most of the people I know here don't like that word...

    and dont' use it. I do, though...

  

  I know lots of queers who hate that word. (In its proper context, I mean)

  Usually they are lesbians. In fact, I heard this argument a few weeks ago,

  I was at a meeting for organizing this year's Pride, and the word queer

  came up. THis woman said that she doesn't like that word because it makes

  lesbians invisible. I couldn't quite figure out what she meant, except

  that maybe she thought queer is thought to refer to males (?) If anyone

  else can help me here, I sure would appreciate it...

 

 I think that the term is used most often as a way to include bisexuals and

 transgendered folk. We used to use "lesgay." Then, when I started up the

 bisexu-l list (a predecessor of bifem-l, for those of you interested in

 history :-)) we started using the term "lesbigay" or "lbg." Eventually,

 people were willing to use "lbgt" but that was a real mouthful, and it

 seemed that the more inclusive people wanted to be, the more willing the

 they were to use the term "queer." It's just so much easier than saying

 "lesbian, bisexual, gay, transgenderd and/or s&m folk."

 

 Most of the hostility towards it I see comes from lesbians and gay men who

 really want the movement to be -their- movement and no one else's.

 

----End Forwarded Message----



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:08:50 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: Question: regional volubility



Interesting question, Allan. How would one measure speed of delivery?

Phonemes per minute? Also, different phonemes would have different

lengths, wouldn't they? I believe "long" vowels do actually last

longer than short vowels in addition to their different quality or

place of formation in the mouth (in English at least)



Anecdotally and within my limited experience, Cuban Spanish appears to

be the most rapid; and I haven't heard anything yet to match the

headlong rush of syllables delivered by my Malayalam-speaking

acquaintances here in Kuwait. Also, they seem to not open their

mouths very much when speaking! How could a person ever learn this

language--as opposed to acquire it as a native speaker? Any reactions?



Onthe other end of the scale, are there languages whose speakers are

noted for their especially slow delivery?



chris brooks / kuwait



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 07:37:56 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language)



I watched part of an A&E program on the Whitechapel Murders lat night

(aka Jack the Ripper). The commentator explained at one point that in

Victorian England prostitutes were known as "gay" women and that "gay"

meant "nymphomaniac" at that time. I have absoutely no documentation for

this claim.



Bethany



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:52:06 -0500

From:  Shari Kendall  KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Call for papers- GLS conference on discourse



      *************Please circulate**************





             CALL FOR PAPERS



        The Georgetown Linguistics Society

              presents



            DISCOURSE AS MOSAIC

          linguistic re/production

                of

          identities & ideologies



              GLS 1996

     October 11-13, 1996 at Georgetown University



 DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACTS AND SYMPOSIUM PROPOSALS: MARCH 18, 1996





            Plenary Speakers

  * Livia Polanyi * Susan Philips * William O'Barr *

* Marcyliena Morgan * Judith Irvine * Shirley Brice Heath *



           Symposium Organizers

       * Charlotte Linde * Amy Sheldon *

 * Heidi Hamilton * Patricia O'Connor * Deborah Tannen *



 Details on workshops with plenaries will appear in future mailings





The theme of GLS 1996, Discourse as Mosaic: linguistic re/production

of identities and ideologies, captures the multiple ways in which

linguistic features and strategies create and reflect coherent social

meanings. We encourage papers and symposia which illuminate how local

linguistic practices produce and reproduce identities andd ideologies,

and how, in turn, identities and ideologies simultaneously constrain those

practices. The metaphor of mosaic stems from this relationship: the

interaction of small and large patterns to yield a coherent whole.

Works submitted may include, but are not limited to, such areas as

discourse in the media, the workplace, the classroom, everyday

conversation, and in medical, political, legal, religious, and other

institutional contexts. Papers and symposia should be based on

naturally occurring language data.



SUBMISSIONS.

Abstracts and symposium proposals must be received by GLS no later than

Monday, March 18, 1996.



Individual presentation of papers will be 20 minutes long with 10

additional minutes for discussion. Please send three copies of an

anonymous 500-word double-spaced abstract (hard copy preferred,

e-mail accepted). On a separate sheet, provide your name, paper title,

mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number, and institutional affiliation.

In addition, please submit a 100 word summary of your paper for the

conference program.



The GLS invites proposals for two-hour symposia. Please send all abstracts

for presentation in a symposium together, accompanied by a cover letter

which explains how the individual presentations relate to one another and to

the themes of the symposium and the conference. The cover letter should

provide the organizer's name, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number,

and institutional affiliation. In addition, please submit a 100 word summary

of the entire symposium for the conference program.



REGISTRATION. Please send your name and affiliation, mailing and e-mail

addresses, telephone number, and a check made payable to "Georgetown

University" to the address below.



    Registration fees:

                Student    Non-Student

    Before September 20:  $20.00     $35.00

    After September 20:  $30.00     $45.00





For further information:



GLS 1996, Department of Linguistics

Box 571051, Georgetown University

Washington, DC 20057-1051

Telephone: (202) 687-6166

E-mail:   gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

WWW:    http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:01:58 -0400

From:  Paul Fallon  pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S850.MWC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Question: regional volubility



Wolfram's text _Dialects and American English_ (pp. 56-57) alludes to the

fact that there are different perceptions of rhythm, perhaps influenced

by southern monopthongization of diphthongs, but unfortunately he gives

no citations.



John Laver's new book _Principles of Phonetics_ (and referencs therein)

have an excellent discussion of problems measuring rate of speaking vs.

rate of articulation (Ch. 17). He cites a comparative study by Gosy (1991b)

which gives average speaking rates in several languages. Dutch ranges

from 5.9 to 9.3 syllables/second, with French apparently the slowest of

the five languages cited at 4.7 to 6.8 syllables/second.



He also cites Ramsaran's (1978) study of six Rp speakers based on 20

hours of tape-recorded data. The slowest rate was 3.1 syll/sec (7.6

segments/sec) to the fastest at 5.4 syll/sec (13.4 segments/sec).



I hope this helps with the thread on speed, but I don't know of any works

dealing with American dialectal variation wrt rate of speaking or rate of

articulation.



Paul Fallon

pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mwc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:00:00 CST

From:  Edward Callary  TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Question: regional volubility



 Don't know of anything re: speed of speech, but I have read

reputable studies concerning of movement. These correlate

with size of community; people in larger cities (New York is

always the epitome) do move faster than those in smaller towns.

They walk faster, shop faster, etc., so I would not be surprised

at all to find differences in speech tempo.



Edward Callary



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:13:29 -0400

From:  Paul Fallon  pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S850.MWC.EDU 

Subject: Query: Accent diagnostics



I was wondering if the readers of this list could point me to some

references concerning accent placement. I'm thinking of something along

the lines of James Hartman's essay in DARE vol. 1 where he says on p.

xlix 'For example, if the first feature in a set of full articulation of

postvocalic /r/, the possible area is very large, excluding only parts of

the East Coast and the South. If a fronted pronciation of /aU/ as [aeU]

is added, the likely area has been reduced to the South Midland, the

western part of the Midwest, adn much of the Southwest. If a lack of a

contrast between /a/ and /O/ is added and the speaker is middle-aged or

old, the area is further reduced to part of the high Plains and Rocky

Mountain states...'



I am familiar with some of the basic textbooks like Wolfram's _Dialects

and American English_ and Davis' _English dialectology_ but they are not

particularly helpful in placing someone's accent. Millward, in her

_Biography of the English language_ gives a list which is somewhat

helpful. JC Wells' _Accents of English_ is rather detailed, though he

perpetuates the notion of General American, and his tape is somewhat

disappointing. I'm just wondering if there's something that gives a

systematic overview but does not go into all of the detail of the primary

Linguistic Atlas materials. And if there's a tape that might be helpful

for ear training, so much the better. Something like _Americans Speaking_

but with more detailed commentary accompanied by transcription. Or am I

just dreaming?



Thanks for any input you can give.



Paul Fallon

pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mwc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 10:34:19 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: koofer



    Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:22:43 -0500 (EST)

    From: "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu 

    Subject: Re: koofer

   

    I have never received the term koofer from a student at the University of

    North Carolina--nor have I ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, I have

    never recieved any terms for 'files of tests' and precious few for

    cheating of any kind. But I will ask this semester's students when they

    return from break.

                       Connie

   

    On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Thomas L. Clark wrote:

   

      Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:09:53 -0800

      From: Thomas L. Clark  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

      Subject: koofer

     

      After the midterm today, a grad student, originally from Virginia Tech,

      asked if the exams were not beign returned because of koofers.

     

      I was blank. She said at VT koofer meant "old test" and copies of them

      were kept in koofer files in dorms, frats, ROTC offices.

     

      Is this widespread college slang, Connie?



FWIW, we haven't heard of this term or of any other term for such

files either.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:51:53 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Addition to Web Pages



"I'd like to hear more about Allan's magic device for converting NADS text

to HTML."



The magic device is part of PageMaker 6.0. It is a "plug-in" known as HTML

Author. Once you have a publication set up in PageMaker (as I do with NADS),

you can apply HTML Author. You make a few choices as it automatically goes

along, and there it is.

 Then you just ship it in chunks to Natalie, and she puts it together on our

Web site.



"The more I think about it, however,

the less convinced I am that the conversion program produced a document

that took any less time to get into finished html form than an ascii

document would have taken."



She has a good point. It is, however, possible that I may be able to do a

better job with HTML Author next time. Sorry, Natalie!



- Allan



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:16:34 -0500

From:  Anita Puckett  apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU 

Subject: Re: koofer



 After the midterm today, a grad student, originally from Virginia Tech,

 asked if the exams were not beign returned because of koofers.

 

 I was blank. She said at VT koofer meant "old test" and copies of them

 were kept in koofer files in dorms, frats, ROTC offices.

 

 Is this widespread college slang, Connie?

 

 Thomas L. Clark         702/895-3473

 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011)

 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



I never heard the term until I received an appointment here at Virginia

Tech. Within one week after arriving, I was informed about "koofers" and

was told the term originated here and was idiosyncratic to this

institution. That's the lore from here, anyway.



Anita Puckett





Appalachian Studies Program

Center for Interdisciplinary Studies

Virginia Tech University

Blacksburg VA  24061-0227

(540) 231-9526

apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.vt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:09:24 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: China/Albania/Europe



Does anyone know of any readily acceible texts that deal with dialects or

language contact or language learning issues in China, Germany, or

Albania? I have students from those countries who are doing a term paper.



Tim Frazer

English, WIU

Macomb IL 61455



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:15:15 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: speed



   I agree, CUBAN SPANISH (and the San Sebastian CASTELLANO of an

acquaintance of mine) is characterized by a machine-gun delivery. The

consensus among the Native American sources familiar to me appears to be

that LAKOTA is spoken especially rapidly. Also, I've always been told

that my native speech, the ENGLISH-language dialect of Spokane,

Washington, is markedly slower than the speech of New York City, where I

lived for 7 years in college. I believe it; I'd heard NYC accents before

moving there, but when I arrived I could barely understand people, due to

the speed factor.



   Any other notes?



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:05:47 -0500

From:  john staczek  camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: koofer



     Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:22:43 -0500 (EST)

     From: "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu 

     Subject: Re: koofer

    

     I have never received the term koofer from a student at the University of

     North Carolina--nor have I ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, I have

     never recieved any terms for 'files of tests' and precious few for

     cheating of any kind. But I will ask this semester's students when they

     return from break.

                        Connie

    

     On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Thomas L. Clark wrote:

    

       Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:09:53 -0800

       From: Thomas L. Clark  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

       Subject: koofer

      

       After the midterm today, a grad student, originally from Virginia Tech,

       asked if the exams were not beign returned because of koofers.

      

       I was blank. She said at VT koofer meant "old test" and copies of them

       were kept in koofer files in dorms, frats, ROTC offices.

      

       Is this widespread college slang, Connie?

 

 FWIW, we haven't heard of this term or of any other term for such

 files either.

 

 Jesse Sheidlower

 Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang

  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



I've been wondering about the term since I saw the first post. Is it

possible 'koofer' is some kind of corruption of 'coffer'? It seems to me

not unreasonable given some stressed vowel variation. It's just a thought.

John Staczek

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:29:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Addition to Web Pages



  She has a good point. It is, however, possible that I may be able to do a

  better job with HTML Author next time. Sorry, Natalie!



But I like working jigsaw puzzles. :-)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:31:03 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.SHS.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Child of God



The song Patricia Kuhlman quoted is especially great when sung by

Crosby, Stills, Nash, and Young.



In the 50's, an LDS children's song was published called

"I Am a Child of God." It applies to everyone in that God is the

Father of the human family. Additionally, it suggests that our

connection with Him began before birth. Every verse begins with

the line, "I am a child of God." The first verse follows:



        I am a child of God;

        and he has sent me here.

        Has given me an earthly home

        With parents kind and dear.



Patricia wrote:

  The recent discussion of the term child of god in religious context

  brought to mind a more secular usage in Joni Mitchell's song,

  "Woodstock" (1969):

 

    I came upon a child of God

    He was walking along the road

    And I asked him, where are you going

    And this he told me

    I'm going down to Yasgur's farm

    I'm going to join in a rock 'n' roll band

    I'm going to camp out on the land

    And try an' get my soul free

      We are stardust

      We are golden

      And we've got to get ourselves

      Back to the garden

    ...



Which garden is that song refering to?

Tom



utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Feb 1996 to 1 Mar 1996

***********************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 99 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Question: regional volubility

 2. Oxymorons (2)

 3. Child of God



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:59:17 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Question: regional volubility



Ed Callary's report on speed of movement does not work in South Texas.

San Antonio is larger than Austin, but people in Austin move much faster

than those in San Antonio. There is an isocult (isoeth?) between the two

cities, with Texas Hispanic culture predominating in San Antonio.



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:16:23 -0600

From:  Samuel Jones  smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



Mr. Sklarkey:



How about "jumbo, king-size quart"?



Might this qualify?



smj



____________________________________________________________________________

DR. SAMUEL M. JONES           INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies  TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu

5434 Humanities Building           FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW)

455 North Park Street

__________________________________________

University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message)

Madison, WI 53706-1483           * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -

                         * VOICE MAIL--Lv message)



____________________________________________________________________________

"Pen-y-Bryn"           TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home)

122 Shepard Terrace             608 + 233-4748 (Home)

Madison, WI 53705-3614

____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:40:21 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Child of God



       And we've got to get ourselves

       Back to the garden

     ...

 

 Which garden is that song refering to?



Eden, I presume.



Seth



P.S. New installment of my teenage years will continue as soon as I get a

little time.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:15:57 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



Reply: Definitely, maybe.



Seth Sklarey

--------------------



 Mr. Sklarkey:

 

 How about "jumbo, king-size quart"?

 

 Might this qualify?

 

 smj

 

 ____________________________________________________________________________

 DR. SAMUEL M. JONES           INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

 Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies  TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu

 5434 Humanities Building           FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW)

 455 North Park Street

 __________________________________________

 University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message)

 Madison, WI 53706-1483           * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -

                          * VOICE MAIL--Lv message)

 

 ____________________________________________________________________________

 "Pen-y-Bryn"           TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home)

 122 Shepard Terrace             608 + 233-4748 (Home)

 Madison, WI 53705-3614

 ____________________________________________________________________________

 

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Mar 1996 to 2 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 70 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. gay (2)

 2. Oxymorons



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Mar 1996 07:45:30 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: gay



re: the recent query about _gay_ meaning 'male homosexual'



i just read a newsletter for a gay and lesbian organization that

repeatedly used the phrase "lesbians and gay women" in an article

about a women's health retreat. now, i know that there's some

difference in identity with the two terms, but i'd never seen the

terms so blatantly contrasted, i assume in an effort for inclusive

language.  (it was a south african newsletter, so i wonder if this

usage has anything to do w/ the rather hard-and-fast butch/femme role-

taking here--the "lesbians" being the butches and the "gay women" the

femmes.)



antipodally,

lynne m.



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Mar 1996 07:19:44 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



Actually, Seth, that's spittin' close to how my Blackfoot friends

sometimes say, "For sure, maybe," which seems to fit a Blackfoot answer.



On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  Reply: Definitely, maybe.

 

  Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:47:55 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: gay



On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



  i just read a newsletter for a gay and lesbian organization that

  repeatedly used the phrase "lesbians and gay women"



  i wonder if this

  usage has anything to do w/ the rather hard-and-fast butch/femme role-

  taking here--the "lesbians" being the butches and the "gay women" the

  femmes.)



First time I have seen that distinction made in that way ...



Bethany



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Mar 1996 to 3 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 340 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. GAY (Changes to the English Language)

 2. Hoya (3)

 3. Re(2): Re(2): Preserve the English language!

 4. Toni Morrison lecture March 25

 5. Survey of e-usage (2)

 6. Semitic languages and peoples; Anti-Semites



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:50:21 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language)



If anyone wants documentation on the earlier (Victorian and pre-) use of GAY

for non-homosexual varieties of marked sexuality, a good place to start is

Farmer & Henley (SLANG AND ITS ANALOGUES, 1890-1904, reprinted by Arno Press,

1970):



GAY, adj. (colloquial) 1. Dissipated; specifically, given to venery: As in the

French, avoir la cuisse gaie = to be addicted to the use of men. Hence GAY

WOMAN or GIRL or BIT = a strumpet; GAY HOUSE = a brothel; TO BE GAY = to be

incontinent [!]; GAY IN THE LEGS, IN THE GROIN, IN THE ARSE = SHORT-HEELED

(q.v.); GAYING INSTRUMENT = the penis; GAY MAN = a wencher [clearly, the pro-

posed gloss 'to be addicted to the use of men' is too restrictive]; GAYING IT

= copulating.



Glosses range from Chaucer, 1383

   What eyeleth you? Some GAY girl, God it wot, Hath brought you

   thus upon the very trot.

through someone named Leech, 1854

   How long have you been GAY?

to this one, from the Sunday Times, sounding like Pat Buchanan (mutatis mutan-

dis) today

   As soon as ever a woman has ostensibly lost her reputation, we, with a

   grim inappositeness, call her GAY.



Other meanings include

2. (common) In drink. For synonyms, see SCREWED.



ALL GAY, ALL SO GAY. adv. phr. (common) All right, first rate.



TO FEEL GAY. verb phr. (colloquial) Inclined for sport, veneral or other; TO

FEEL NAUGHTY (q.v.).



GAY TYKE BOY, subs. phr. (old) A dog fancier.





--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:27:22 PST

From:  tom creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Hoya



Can anyone tell me why the Georgetown U. athletic teams are called the Hoyas?

As far as I can tell, hoya is the name of a plant species--a strange name to

apply to an athletic team.



Thanks in advance for any information.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:07:40 -0400

From:  Paul Fallon  pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S850.MWC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Hoya



On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, tom creswell wrote:



  Can anyone tell me why the Georgetown U. athletic teams are called the Hoyas?

  As far as I can tell, hoya is the name of a plant species--a strange name to

  apply to an athletic team.



According to campus lore, at one point there was an athletic team called

the Stonewalls, presumably named after the wall along 37th Street. The

cheer for the team became 'Hoya Saxa' (What Rocks!), a blend of Ancient

Greek 'hoia' (nom. neut. pl. pronoun) and Latin 'saxa' (nom. neut. plural

of saxum, 'rock'). Incidentally, when I was there the radio station was

WROX, a pretty good pun.



--Paul Fallon

pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mwc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:05:38 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Re(2): Re(2): Preserve the English language!



The editing of The World Book Dictionary (formerly The World Book Encyclopedia

Dictionary) was directed by Clarence L. Barnhart (1900-1993) until his

retirement from Barnhart Books in 1980. In the 1970's Robert K. Barnhart (my

brother) was added to the title page although he had been working on it from

its inception. He is currently the principal editor.



Send me a snail-mail address and I'll post to you a summary of his career

published in The Barnhart Dictionary Companion (quarterly) which he began in

1982.



Regards,

David K. Barnhart, Editor/Publisher

The Barnhart Dictionary Companion [quarterly journal of new words]

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:47:54 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: Hoya



Tom Creswell asked:

 Can anyone tell me why the Georgetown U. athletic teams are called the Hoyas?

 As far as I can tell, hoya is the name of a plant species--a strange name to

 apply to an athletic team.

 

Tom: I researched this years ago for an article on strange team nicknames

(and don't have the material in front of me). As I recall, it comes from a

Latin phrase, "Hoya saxa," which translates "what rocks." How Georgetown

came to derive a team nickname from that escapes me (and maybe them, too).



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:42:05 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Toni Morrison lecture March 25



ADS has received an invitation to hear Toni Morrison speak on "The Future of

Time" at 7:30 pm March 25, Washington DC, Concert Hall, Kennedy Center for

the Performing Arts. Reception to follow.

 This is the annual Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities, sponsored by the

National Endowment for the Humanities.

 If there's an ADS member in the Washington area who'd like to attend, let

me know by March 8 and I can get you one or two (complimentary) tickets.

- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 15:42:14 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Survey of e-usage



ADS has been asked to endorse a survey of usage. What do y'all think? If

sentiment is generally favorable, I will ask the Executive Council for the

endorsement. In any case, you may be interested in this enterprise by one of

the subscribers to our list. I attach it here, NOT to have you fill it out at

this time, but for your comments.

- Allan Metcalf

-----------------------------------------------

Date:  Mon, Mar 4, 1996 12:56 PM CST

From: bruner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nrh.com (Rick Bruner)



Just to clarify, the ambition of our project is also *not* to fix a

definitive set of standards, but rather just to make the wider public's

opinions known to the journalistic community, where editors at various

publications will ultimately set their own standards in any event. At least

this way they have some input, however, from readers first.



Please let me know whether your organization would like to participate as

soon as you have feedback from your members.

-------



             Subject: Style Standards Proposal



Greetings Allan,



Below please find a proposal for a project my company is working, which I

would like the ADS to consider becoming involved with.



Please contact me with any questions.



Rick



-----------



Proposal for Standard Press Styles of Internet Terminology

              and invitation for participation



Background



The birth of the World Wide Web in the fall of 1993 brought the power

and promise of global networking to the masses. With the Internet as

its poster child, the press community began intensely to examine and

report on the state of the online world. Since then, the Internet has

become a social phenomenon that has found its way in every

publication from Computerworld to Cosmopolitan.



Given the Internet's rise in social prominence (a stature that has

garnered literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of clips in

the past two years), it is disheartening that the journalistic

community has not been able to arrive at standard conventions for

common Net-related terms.



For example, which is the correct spelling?



  E-mail  or  Email  or  e-mail  or  email





The American Heritage Dictionary says "E-mail." The Oxford English

Dictionary says "email." Wired magazine writes "e-mail." Many

publications, however, are routinely inconsistent within their own

pages.





PROPOSAL



Traditionally, styles on spelling and usage are established only after

words have been in common use for years. The momentum of the digital

age, however, has forced copy editors and language pundits to

consider standards for a whole new lexicon sometimes mere months

after the words are coined.



In the true spirit of "interactivity" which the Internet embodies,

Niehaus Ryan Haller proposes to let those who use the words -- the

online community itself -- contribute to determining their spelling

standards. The event will be a World Wide Web survey, widely

promoted across the Internet, as well as in the popular and

professional journalism press. The survey will be hosted for several

weeks on a Web page with a polling technology, containing a

list of word choices for Netizens to vote among and add comments as

desired. At the close of the survey period, the results would again

be promoted broadly across the Internet and journalist communities.

The project represents a unique opportunity for those who set

journalistic standards to get feedback first from readers themselves.



Co-sponsors of the endeavor currently include Fitzgerald

Communications; PR Newswire; Ziff Davis; Quote.com, an online

financial services review; GeoSystems, a mapping software firm; and

Release Software, a company that offers an online auto-payment

solution for software developers.



In addition to these, we are eagerly seeking other interested

companies in the high tech industry and journalistic institutions to

join in endorsing the project. Just as Netscape benefited in being

an industry leader behind standards when it created HTML tags and

then submitted them to the Internet Engineering Task Force for

standards approval, participants in this standards drive can benefit

as being active leaders in the formation of how the Internet affects

the everyday person. Sponsors are in name only. If you would like

to lend your name in support of the survey, the polling Web site

would contain a link to your URL.



Below, please find a list of potential terms to be included on the

survey. Please suggest any additional terms, likely to be used in

the popular press, which routinely present confusion.







          Potential Terms for Survey



* Note use of capitalization





(Noun)

  Cyberspace  or  cyberspace  or  Cyber-space  or  cyber-space



(Noun & Verb)

  E-mail  or  Email  or  e-mail  or  email



(Noun)

  Homepage  or  homepage  or  Home Page  or  Home page  or

   home page  or  Home-page  or  Home-Page  or  home-page



(Noun, abreviation of Internet)

  Net  or  'Net  or  net  or  'net



(Prepositional phrase, as in "Check out our site xxx")

  on-line  or  online  or  on line



(Adjective)

  on-line  or  online  or  on line



(Prepositional phrase, as in "Check out this imagexxx")

  on-screen  or  onscreen  or  on screen



(Adjective)

  on-screen  or  onscreen  or  on screen



 (Noun, abreviation of World Wide Web)



  Web  or  web  or  WWW



(Noun)

  Web page  or  Web Page  or  Webpage  or  webpage

   or  Web-page  or  web-page



 (Noun)

  Web site  or  Web Site  or  Website  or  website

   or  Web-site  or  web-site





 Rick Bruner

 Niehaus Ryan Haller

  Public Relations

 Tel: (415) 827-7058

 Fax: (415) 615-7902

 bruner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nrh.com

 (http://www.nrh.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:42:50 -0600

From:  Rick Arons  RARONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TINY.COMPUTING.CSBSJU.EDU 

Subject: Semitic languages and peoples; Anti-Semites



Does anyone have any information on the origin and development of the term

"anti-Semite" to refer only to someone who has an irrational fear or

hatred of Jews, and not of Arabic-speaking people, for example? Many thanks.



Rick Arons

Modern and Classical Languages

St. John's University

Collegeville, MN 56321



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 17:19:12 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



The beauty of the web is its freedom, it variety.



The need for standards derives from the attempt by one group to control

another or from the feelings of doubt and inadequacy on the part of an

emergent class. The rise of prescriptivism in grammar, whenever exactly

that occurred (18th century, perhaps earlier, for English), is the prime

example. This need has absolutely nothing to do communication:

communication proceeds despite so-called standards.



Being a variationist at heart, one who delights in different ways for

expressing the same thing, I find an attempt to define standards for

terms on the Intranet/Internet to be essentially repugnant. I might,

however, be willing to participate, if the Society endorses the project,

simply to throw my sabot into the works.



Terry Irons



 --

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1996 to 4 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 15 messages totalling 348 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Oxymorons (3)

 2. Survey of e-usage

 3. Teen slang (esp. Southern)

 4. http://www.djsa.com

 5. carried my cousin to the store

 6. why are ships referred to as she (fwd) (3)

 7. new word (2)

 8. French articles/books on sociolinguistics

 9. Comment on Bruner Internet standards proposal

 10. skinny marink?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:55:43 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



Dan spake thusly:

 Actually, Seth, that's spittin' close to how my Blackfoot friends

 sometimes say, "For sure, maybe," which seems to fit a Blackfoot answer.

 

 On Sat, 2 Mar 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

   Reply: Definitely, maybe.



That's funny - I had a friend who

always said "Sure, I guess."

It drove me nuts! =^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 312.996.8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX    ;

;URL: http://www2.uic.edu/depts/langlab/          ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:14:24 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



In my opinion the setting of standards for terms used with

regard to the web is intrinsically dogmatic and prescriptivist.

Surely this is the kind of thing that we, as Linguists are

essentially motivated to reject. What gives anyone the right to

decide to set down a list of standards, and although Rick says that

the purpose of this project is not to do such a thing, then what is

its purpose? By giving people the chance to input their opinions,

they are giving the impression that it is democratic, yet how many

people are going to be given a chance to do this? It will only be

the curent web-users- the middle class academics/business people-

which rings familiarly with the setting of standards of English

grammar some time ago.



And why shouldn't there be several ways of saying the same thing.

This is one of the beauties of language, especially English, that it

is rich in variety, lending itself to the opportunity for sublety of

meaning. I already use different notations in different contexts, for

example "web" in a more colloquial sense(especially in speech or

email), but "WWW"

in more formal written documents, as I feel its abbreviated form is

of a register more common in academic writing than the clipped "web" form.

This is my personal opinion, but I do not expect anyone else to agree

or adopt the same usage. At the moment I am given the chance to make

my own choices, and I would like it to stay this way, without

someone telling me that what I choose to use is "wrong".



I say, cling on to the last straws of unprescribed variety while they

are there, otherwise, in maybe 10 years time, we won't have any say

at all, and "webarians" will be dictating what is the standard way to

spell" email", according to the rules inadvertantly set by

ourselves today.

Charlotte



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 10:33:37 CST

From:  Bryan Long  blong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAMANET.UA.EDU 

Subject: Teen slang (esp. Southern)



     I am not a linguist so I turn to you all for help. I am a

     student who happens to have an interest in finding

     information about common slang used by today's teenagers,

     particularly those in the South.



     I am working on a project where this information would be

     quite helpful, but I'm not sure where to turn for

     information.



     Are there any dictionaries, books, newsletters or papers

     that discuss, or list, slang for the modern teen? (I can't

     use any old works that may discuss slang from the 80s or

     valley talk or any that focus primarily on, say, NYC

     boroughs).



     If there aren't currently any works available, is there

     anyone in particular who studies this topic that could be of

     assistance to me?



     Any help would be nice. Thanks in advance.



     Bryan Long

     blong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bamanet.ua.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Mar 1996 11:56:07 EST

From:  sflorida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DJSA.COM

Subject: http://www.djsa.com



Just a message to let you know that DJSA's Who's Who Guide

is located at http://www.djsa.com/whoswho1.htm



The guide is packed with listings and links of WWW Sites

and is accessible from any browser. The guide is written

in html and also links each site to the Home Page(s) that

have been prepared by each company, educational facility,

government or information provider.



It is a great way to "surf the net".



If you prefer, you can download the guide from our location.

Just telnet to djsa.com and download djswww02.exe.



Thanks!





DJSA Bulletin Board, Inc.

http://www.djsa.com

telnet://djsa.com

ftp://djsa.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 11:34:57 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



   I once had a friend who was fond of reacting to exciting stimuli

with the comment, "That's kind of awesome."



   No complete list of oxymorons is possible! People coin them at an

alarming rate. If you doubt this, read a stack of freshman English papers.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:10:15 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: carried my cousin to the store



On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Sylvia Swift wrote:



  carry me back to old virginie . . . .

 

ALSO: "Swing low, sweet chariot, comin' for to carry me home . . ."

BUT: "COUNTRY ROAD, TAKE ME HOME, TO THE PLACE I BELONG . . . "



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:24:26 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: why are ships referred to as she (fwd)



On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Donald Larmouth wrote:



  I suspect that very few possessions are referred to with 'he' (it's

  always 'Old Betsy,' never 'Old Bob' or 'Old Fred').



Certain body parts stand as a significant exception to this generalization.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 16:20:14 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth  LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU 

Subject: Re: why are ships referred to as she (fwd)



I concede the point, though I never thought of body parts as "possessions" but

as extensions of myself.



DWL



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 14:27:56 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oxymorons



On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:



    I once had a friend who was fond of reacting to exciting stimuli

  with the comment, "That's kind of awesome."

 

    No complete list of oxymorons is possible! People coin them at an

  alarming rate. If you doubt this, read a stack of freshman English papers.

 

    Dave

 



Is "freshman English" another one of those oxymorons?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 17:19:17 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: new word



In the latest edition of the American Library Association is an article about

the digitization of the Library of Congress's materials for public online

access. On page 34 is a text-box headline containing the word "cybrary"

to describe this new online library.

Greg Pulliam

Illinois Institute of Technology

Chicago, IL



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 15:26:30 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: new word



   Glad to hear "cybrary". It beats the heck out of "cyber-lib",

rhyming with "tribe", a term heard in an American Library Association

video "Library Video Magazine / Inside Libraries" recently. I doubt

either will catch on, however.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:59:20 CST

From:  Jeff Allen  jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU 

Subject: French articles/books on sociolinguistics



I am compiling a list of articles and books (and conference papers) written

over the past 5 years in French that treat all issues of sociolinguistics

and psycholinguistics. If you know of any, please send the references to

me directly.



Thanks,



Jeff Allen

jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]heartland.bradley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 20:22:30 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Comment on Bruner Internet standards proposal



I thought the following note from my colleague Carl Berkhout, who is very much

interested in electronic editorial standards, would be useful to share with

ADS-Lers and Rick Bruner. I'm sure Carl would be happy to be drafted into

the enterprise.





Rudy--



Thanks for sending me that Rick Bruner proposal, which I had known

nothing about. Yes, I'm very interested in that. I hope indeed that

the ADS will be interested in that project (if, as it seems and

despite its louche appeal to high-tech companies and "journalistic

institutions," the project is genuinely concerned about good, sensible

usage--and not just English usage--on the Internet and elsewhere in the

world of computers). I am personally interested even if the ADS isn't.

I assume that you are also.



What Bruner proposes is something that very much needs to be done. All

this goes hand in hand with the many problems of correct, consistent,

and sensible citation of electronic/Internet documents and such in an

ever-changing, ever-evolving electronic world. The MLA, for example,

has been fumbling with attempted standards for the past two years but

has come up with nothing better than what you or I might reasonably

propose in any given month in 1994-1995-1996. All in all, I like

Bruner's initiative very much, but I don't know yet if his group is in a

sufficiently competent and informed position to recommend Internet

standards that all of us very much want and very much wish to take very

seriously.



I note that Bruner uses the term "World Wide Web" but does not include

it among his several problematic examples. I use "Worldwide Web" as the

correct expansion of WWW--in part because that's what Tim Berners-Lee,

the Web's founder, recommends, but most of all because it's the

grammatically cleanest term. Can Bruner persuasively document his

preference for "World Wide Web"?



Bruner has not yet, it seems, announced a listserv (or Listserv or

whatever) discussion list. Such a list is of course necessary so that

participants can discuss and fight over such terms as "on-line" and

such.



All in all, I suggest that Bruner and the ADS folk get very interested

in one another. Possibly Bruner is not quite the right person to

propose some needed standards, but he at least speaks up about things

that almost everyone else has been mum about. We should take him

seriously, and we should then get interested in his group's highest

linguistic standards.



This is not a private message. You may forward it to the ADS list, to

Bruner, or wherever.



Carl



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:21:54 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: why are ships referred to as she (fwd)



 I concede the point, though I never thought of body parts as

 "possessions" but

 as extensions of myself.



And if they ARE considered to be "possessions", they are--let us

hope--inalienable possessions. The occasional counterexemplificatory Bobbitt

is the exception that proves the rule.





Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Mar 1996 22:28:56 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: skinny marink?



As a spinoff of a conversation with Ellen Prince, I thought I'd try to pin

down the boundaries of the above lexical item (region and approximate year).

For me, at least, it's a childhood term from the 1950's in New York, where

I remember it being stressed only on the first component, so I'm just guessing

the two final unstressed syllables are spelled in the indicated fashion. I

couldn't locate it in either DARE or Lighter's Random House historical slang

dictionary for the obvious reason that neither has put out M's (let alone S's)

yet. Anyone else remember skinny marinks?



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1996 to 5 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 418 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. skinny marink? -Reply

 2. skinny marink? (6)

 3. Hmmm. . . MLA opportunity

 4. French articles/books on sociolinguistics

 5. Semitic languages and peoples; Anti-Semites

 6. World-Wide Web

 7. why the male member is not referred to as Gertrude (3)

 8. "Youth English as an untranscribed language"

 9. Survey of e-usage



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:16:02 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM 

Subject: skinny marink? -Reply



Larry:



Isn't this the first part of WC Fields "skinna marink a dink a dink,

skinna marink a doo?"



What did you use "skinny marink" to mean?



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 06:16:53 -0800

From:  "SETH SKLAREY C.A.I."  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



 As a spinoff of a conversation with Ellen Prince, I thought I'd try to pin

 down the boundaries of the above lexical item (region and approximate year).

 For me, at least, it's a childhood term from the 1950's in New York, where

 I remember it being stressed only on the first component, so I'm just guessing

 the two final unstressed syllables are spelled in the indicated fashion. I

 couldn't locate it in either DARE or Lighter's Random House historical slang

 dictionary for the obvious reason that neither has put out M's (let alone S's)

 yet. Anyone else remember skinny marinks?

 

 Larry

 



I was thin and appelled as such in family conversation. Born Newark, NJ 1944

& raised there until 1953.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:25:27 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



Right--"skinny marink" was essentially the opposite of "fatso", but without

the same degree of negative loading (it was more in the nature of teasing than

insulting), for obvious cultural reasons. Seth, do you remember how it was

stressed for you in Newark?  SKINny marink (with -marink functioning almost

like a suffix, with no stress), or skinny marINK (with final stress?). The

stress pattern explains why I'm confident in spelling the last vowel -i-, but

have no clue as to whether the penultimate vowel is indeed -a-, or -e-, or

whatever (cf. our earlier discussion of saluggi). Youth English as an

untranscribed language...



       Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:46:02 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Hmmm. . . MLA opportunity



The March 15 deadline is still ten days away, but so far I have exactly 0

(zero) proposals for presentations in the ADS sessions at the Modern Language

Association meeting in Washington, DC this December 27-30. We can have two

sessions with three papers each; it would be a shame to miss the opportunity.

 All you need at this point is a title and brief outline. You can send them

to me by e-mail as well as USPS.

 One condition: to be on the program, you *must* pay your 1996 MLA dues no

later than April 1.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:20:49 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



 

  As a spinoff of a conversation with Ellen Prince, I thought I'd try to pin

  down the boundaries of the above lexical item (region and approximate year).

  For me, at least, it's a childhood term from the 1950's in New York, where

  I remember it being stressed only on the first component, so I'm just guessing

  the two final unstressed syllables are spelled in the indicated fashion. I

  couldn't locate it in either DARE or Lighter's Random House historical slang

  dictionary for the obvious reason that neither has put out M's (let alone S's)

  yet. Anyone else remember skinny marinks?



First of all, the usual form appears to be _skinnymalink,_ and is found

thusly in Dialect Notes IV 280; American Thesaurus of Slang 429.6; and

OED2 from 1892 identified as Scots with numerous Scottish citations. A

quick query of several people raised in New York in the 1930s-1950s

reveal that they all know the -malink form only.



The only citation we have for the -marink form in the HDAS files

is from 1954, in a novel set in New York.



If we do enter the term (we might simply decide it's dialect but

not slang), it will be under "s," since we've never encountered

the second element independently.



Best,



Jesse Sheidlower

RH Historical Dictionary of American Slang

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 09:39:12 CST

From:  "Joan H. Hall"  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



_Skinny marink_ is a variant of the earlier _skinny malink_, which goes

back to a comic song on the London stage around 1870. The _Scottish

National Dictionary_ has _skinnymalink(ie)_, for an emaciated person or

animal, with an 1892 quote "Twa skinamalinks o' the genus horse." A 1956

quote says, "There used to be a chidren's song in Aberdeen relating the

adventures of a thin man called 'Skinamalinky Lang Legs', which is still

sung as a skipping-song, etc."



I think this goes back to a Scottish phrase, "like the links o the cruik,"

which means 'very thin, skinny.' The cruik, or crook, is the hook from

which a pot is hung over a fire, and the links are the chain that suspends

the hook. Someone who is skinny as a link is obviously very skinny.



In the form "Skin-a-ma-rink," the phrase was popularized in 1924 by Eddie

Cantor, in a song written by Al Dubin, Jimmy McHugh, and Irving Mills.



Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 08:31:02 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.CORP.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: French articles/books on sociolinguistics



Jeff Allen wrote:



 I am compiling a list of articles and books (and conference papers) written

 over the past 5 years in French that treat all issues of sociolinguistics

 and psycholinguistics. If you know of any, please send the references to

 me directly.



I'll post this to the entire list since I think others might be interested.



This URL (the French Linguistic Server) might be helpful to you:



http://www-ceril.univ-mlv.fr



Best wishes,

Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 10:16:09 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Semitic languages and peoples; Anti-Semites



I have information, but not a citation. Sorry. Maybe you

can track this down.



What I remember is reading recently (that is, probably in 1996),

that the terms "anti-Semite" and "anti-Semitism" were deliberate

coinages by a Jew-hater who hoped to make his prejudice sound

more respectable, and that the coinage occurred in Germany

about a century ago. Good luck, Rick.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 11:46:56 -0500

From:  "H Stephen Straight (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: World-Wide Web



  I note that Bruner uses the term "World Wide Web" but does not include

  it among his several problematic examples. I use "Worldwide Web" as the

  correct expansion of WWW--in part because that's what Tim Berners-Lee,

  the Web's founder, recommends, but most of all because it's the

  grammatically cleanest term. Can Bruner persuasively document his

  preference for "World Wide Web"?



The Chronicle of Higher Education has employed the phrase World-Wide Web

for some years now. This beats both of the alternatives above, IMHO,

because it is both "grammatically clean" and consistent with the

established WWW acronym.



 H Stephen Straight, Dir, Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"]



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 12:03:48 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Joan H. Hall wrote:



  A 1956

  quote says, "There used to be a chidren's song in Aberdeen relating the

  adventures of a thin man called 'Skinamalinky Lang Legs', which is still

  sung as a skipping-song, etc."



I believe this rhyme appeared recently on the British TV comedy "Absolutely

Fabulous." A character flashes back to a scene from her adolescence, in

which her mother serves delicious, fattening food to a thin friend,

reciting "Skinnymalinky long legs, big banana feet!" then gives her own

plump daughter a bowl of celery (or something), concluding "Roly-poly

pudding that nobody wants to meet!"



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:52:32 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: why the male member is not referred to as Gertrude



On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Donald Larmouth wrote



 . . . I never thought of body parts as "possessions" but

  as extensions of myself.



I believe that there is a technical term for this: "inalienable

possession." Some languages mirror the difference, e.g., in French one

says (as I recall) "Je vais a' laver mes chats" but "Je vais a' me laver les

mains."



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:36:35 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: why the male member is not referred to as Gertrude



In message Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:52:32 -0500,

 Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU  writes:



  I believe that there is a technical term for this: "inalienable

  possession." Some languages mirror the difference, e.g., in French one

  says (as I recall) "Je vais a' laver mes chats" but "Je vais a' me laver

  les mains."



Minor improvement on your examples, Ron. There should be no preposition in

these examples: "Je vais laver mes chats"/"Je vais me laver les mains". Lest

your example is misunderstood, the inalienable possession construction need

not be reflexive, e.g., "J'enleve le manteau/chapeau"

             I take my/the coat/hat off

(The French construction is indeed ambiguous but one of its interpretartion

is with the inalinable possession meaning.)



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene          s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago         312-702-8531

Department of Linguistics       FAX: 312-702-9861

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:38:54 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: "Youth English as an untranscribed language"



   Larry Horn, this would be a wonderful subject for research. (Viz

concluding remark in note on "skinny marink"). It would touch closely on

folk etymological processes.



   Just as the collective wisdom produced

"sparrow grass" for "asparagus", so too do the masses of American kids

come up with such as "corder" and "quarter" given identical

pronunciations.



   Another point here, and maybe someone has an opinion in

response; how in the world do you spell the verb in the slang phrases (A)

"Whoa, wailin' guitar solo, dude" and (B) "Foreman was totally wailin' on

Frasier in that fight"?



   For that matter, how does one spell "whoa" in the above? As a youth

interjection it doesn't, shall I say, feel related to the older term of

horsemanship.



   Always curious,



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 13:44:46 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: why the male member is not referred to as Gertrude



On Wed, 6 Mar 1996, Ronald Butters wrote:



  On Tue, 5 Mar 1996, Donald Larmouth wrote

 

   . . . I never thought of body parts as "possessions" but

    as extensions of myself.

 

  I believe that there is a technical term for this: "inalienable

  possession." Some languages mirror the difference, e.g., in French one

  says (as I recall) "Je vais a' laver mes chats" but "Je vais a' me laver les

  mains."

 

Note that many languages overtly code the difference between alienable

and inalienable possession. Going even further with this is Dakota,

which according to I believe Stephen Return Riggs' grammar distinguishes

not only the above 2 categories, but also a third category marking only

body parts! FYI



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 18:02:16 -0800

From:  seth sklarey  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



 Right--"skinny marink" was essentially the opposite of "fatso", but without

 the same degree of negative loading (it was more in the nature of teasing than

 insulting), for obvious cultural reasons. Seth, do you remember how it was

 stressed for you in Newark?  SKINny marink (with -marink functioning almost

 like a suffix, with no stress), or skinny marINK (with final stress?). The

 stress pattern explains why I'm confident in spelling the last vowel -i-, but

 have no clue as to whether the penultimate vowel is indeed -a-, or -e-, or

 whatever (cf. our earlier discussion of saluggi). Youth English as an

 untranscribed language...

 

        Larry



It was SKINny mahRINK with more emphasis on the rink. It was usually

referred in the third person as "she's a real skinny marink."



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:48:36 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook"  cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



On Mon, 4 Mar 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote:



  ADS has been asked to endorse a survey of usage. What do y'all think?



I like it. :-) I'll state my reasons, too, in a minute. But first, I'd

like to address a few words (okay, a few paragraphs) to the respondents who

were disparaging the "prescriptivist" nature of the survey (and its

future recommendations). I didn't think Bruner et al. were trying to come up

with forms to force on everybody, I thought they were just trying to come up

with standard forms.



I think there's a category between prescriptivism and creativity, and that's

standardization, which is just repetition. Repetition's a great thing. :-)

The brain processes repetition more efficiently than it does original

forms. I can dig up references if anybody wants (preferably after the end

of the term :-) ). It's easier to produce repetitive forms and it's

easier to comprehend repetitive forms. My original reaction when I first

started getting interested in repetition was that claims (by, for

example, Oliver Sacks) that we have an impulse to repeat was "But where's

the creativity! Where's the free will!" In fact, repetition frees you up

to be really creative from time to time; and it'd be exhausting to have

to be creative (and to interpret creativity) all the time.



In publishing, the virtue of repetition (e.g., orthography (orthos,

right?) and standardized style) is that it frees up everyone -- writers,

readers, editors -- to focus their creative energies on the content

rather than on the form. I'd rather look in a style manual to find out

how to spell Muammar Qaddhafi than have make it up every time. And I'd

rather *read* the same spelling every time, too, 'cause it'd be easier

than interpreting a different spelling every time (although fat chance of

that with Qaddhafi).



The nice thing about coming up with a list of standardized forms for

'net terms, which don't seem to have standardized forms yet, is that if

you want to use them, they make your life simpler. Standardization isn't

inherently evil; linguistic variation (phonological, dialectal, lexical)

is just a standard for a given speech community--isn't it?--and not

random production of segments or words or whatever.



Of course, if you don't have a talent for remembering standardized forms

(and being able to remember standardized forms is no virtue, but it's

sure convenient), who cares? Spell Qaddhafi (or e-mail or Web page) any

way you want to. Or if you have your own (standardized) variation, why not

use it? Or if you have a creative impulse and want to produce fresh forms

every time, why not? (Well, 'cause it's hard on your reader, but that

shouldn't stop you from expressing yourself. Art's hard.)



My reading of the Bruner post is that they'd like to set up something

that will make the tasks of not-so-creative people like me a little less

inefficient. I didn't get the impression that they were intending to try

to force their style on anybody (feel free to jump in and (dis)abuse me,

everybody).



I personally despise those tsk-tsking prescriptivists who insist that,

for example, we never end a sentence with a preposition (which I actually

tend to be a fan of). But prescriptivism is not the same thing as

standardization.



So I personally like the Bruner survey, but I guess that's because I'm a big

fan of repetition. :-)



I'll shut up now. :-)



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1996 to 6 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 338 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Survey of e-usage (5)

 2. skinny marink?

 3. email usage (2)

 4. Surveying English

 5. Inter-variety miscommunication (2)

 6. "Resources on Black Slang"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Mar 1996 22:33:21 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



I'll jump in in support of Joan Cook's and Carl Berkhout's notes on the

proposed usage survey. As long as it is open-minded in trying (a la Leonard

of ancient memory) to find out what the prevailing usage is, as a basis for

recommending standardization in FORMAL PUBLICATION and REFERENCES, I think

it is something that, as committed linguistic populists, we should strongly

support. [Of course, if it starts out with a set of preconceived norms that

the survey is a smokescreen for imposing, then I'll raise the banner against

it.]

    But just as no one is going to look over your shoulder and censor

your letters to your mom or best friend, this is not an effort to set up an

automatic electronic censor on e-mail messages. American Speech is certainly

not open to idiosyncratic indulgence in spelling or grammar. Things haven't

been that way since the 18th century. While we may lament the loss of options

for individual creativity, if you are trying to use a Net search engine to

run down references to something, it would not help if users asserting their

God-given rights had spelled everything half a dozen ways. There are a few

things like DROUTH that I will never surrender on, the Union Army be damned --

we know much more about them in Texas than anyplace else can claim to. But if

I am putting out a formal publication on the Net or the Web or whatever may

eventuate, I would prefer to have some editorial standards to conform to, just

as when I submit papers to different journals I have to conform (grudgingly) to

their different bibliographic styles. Even psycholinguistic research shows

that it is easier and faster to read text that follows normalized spelling

conventions. In the information age, idiosyncracy in areas like this becomes

, alas, dysfunctional. If you ever try to do much searching on library or

other databases, you'll appreciate why.



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:52:17 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



    I wonder if those who're opposed to ADS lending any kind of support

to a survey on standardizing written/citation forms for references to

electronic exchange of information also want to extend ultimate freedom to

to their students who'd prefer not to have to get so fussy about spelling

etc. After all!

    Joan Cook makes a good case for repetition, and what the survey

seems to be about is the citation-like usages that we'd like to be able to

know how to write in a formal paper. And Rudy Troike's caveat is

important: those doing the survey should not go into the endeavor with an

unyieldingly pre-set agenda if they want to be better received among

academics than Pat Buchannan.



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 00:42:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: skinny marink?



 Anyone else remember skinny marinks?

  

My mother used to say skinny malink. Stress was SKINny maLINK. I haven't

thought about that or heard it in years - or from anyone else ever.

I was raised in NY in 1950's.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 03:54:29 -0800

From:  seth sklarey  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



Rudy wrote:



There are a few

 things like DROUTH that I will never surrender on, the Union Army be damned --

 we know much more about them in Texas than anyplace else can claim to.



I can understand DROUTH as dry in the south, but I still can't abide heith

for he ith tall.



SETH



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 06:31:29 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



  I didn't think Bruner et al. were trying to come up

  with forms to force on everybody, I thought they were just trying to come up

  with standard forms.



That was my reaction also. The project strikes me as more descriptive than

prescriptive. Because examining screen after screen of net data would be

an enormous project, they decided to use the survey method instead -- to ask

net users which spellings or words they use. That doesn't strike me as

inappropriate.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:10:39 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Survey of e-usage



Rudy's note on 'drouth' reminds me of the most amazing intra-dialectal

misunderstanding I ever suffered.



I was old enough to be waiting on customers in my parents' paint and

wallpaper store (in New Albany, IN, a northern suburb of Louisville, KY,

but you must never identify it that way to the natives; they think the guys

on the south side of the river are hillbillies), and a woman walked up to

me and asked for a can of 'rawthorn black.'



Now, there are, in fact, lots of 'blacks' in a paint store -- lamp black,

drop balck, etc..., but no rawthorn.



Nervously, I finally got around to asking the woman what she wanted this

stuff for.



'So I can paint my WROTH ARN,' she replied, obviously convinced that I was

the addled son, and she began to look around for competent assistance.



Just like FOURTH FLOOR, however, her slow and stressed pronunciation

(especially the last part) allowed me to retrieve 'iron,' (after all, my

own pronunciation was close to 'arn') which allowed a quick

back-collocation and the retrieval of 'wrought.'



Must have been one of those moments that points the way downhill to linguistics.



(On a sadder note, I haven't recently thought about linguists 'abiding'

various regional or social forms. Oh well.)



Dennis



 Rudy wrote:

 

 There are a few

  things like DROUTH that I will never surrender on, the Union Army be damned --

  we know much more about them in Texas than anyplace else can claim to.

 

 I can understand DROUTH as dry in the south, but I still can't abide heith

 for he ith tall.

 

 SETH



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:07:59 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: email usage



Yesterday, not having read this thread a tall, but feeling guilty at not

having come forward earlier because I will be at MLA, after all, I sent

Aallan a proposal for a presentation at the ADS MLA session. It happens to

coincide with the topic of the present debate, so I wondered if others of

you might like to have a forum at the MLA session on this very topic. I

reproduce for you below the proposal I sent. I composed it at the keyboard

hastily about five minutes after I read Allan's call for proposals, so

don't look for a whole lot of coherence.



I realize many ADS members will not be attending MLA any more. My other

professional obligations often require my presence at that conference, and

I continue to be a member. But surely there are enough of us with joint

membership to field at least one solid session, and since this is a topic

of concern to MLA members as well, perhaps we can actually do some good.

BTW, if someone could repost the initial query about the usage survey, I'd

like to catch up on the thread. Unfortunately, while my computer skills are

pretty good, I never really learned how to retrieve archival list material.

Is it on our web site? Can someone repost the web address? Thanks



Dennis (still observe the convention of the signature, but often not

starting with the greeting, and spelling email l.c. and solid, but not sure

if I use it as a count noun)

--

Proposal:



"The Language Police on the World Wide Web: Linguistic Correctness and the

Urbanizing of the Electronic Frontier."



Abstract:  I will look at changing language attitudes and practices in the

realm of electronic communication, discussing some emerging standards and

relating them to the developing technology of the World Wide Web.



Early electronic communication had a frontier flavor to it: everything was

new; there were no received standards; a sense of heady lawlessness

prevailed on the electronic frontier. Email, electronic discussion lists,

and newsgroups were the province of technonerds. Clean text was not a high

priority with these early electronic communicators, most of whom used

clunky mainframes designed to crunch numbers, not handle text processing.

Revising prose was next to impossible with the line editors commonly in use

on these systems. The development of full screen mainframe text editors

didn't help that much. Besides, electronic communication had a

spontaneity--and thus a variability--more commonly associated with speech

than writing. However, changes in technology have led to changes in

communication practice. Email text processors like Eudora now emulate the

PC word processors ordinary folks have become used to. They allow us to

cut and paste, to search and replace, to highlight and delete, to use a

mouse, to attach text, graphics, and sound files. They even accommodate

spell checkers.  All this has made email accessible to ordinary people,

and one result of the "democratization" of the internet, the urbanizing of

the electronic frontier, has been an increased concern with conventionality

and linguistic correctness in e-communications. It is common now to find

questions about how to begin an email communication. Errors in spelling or

usage, once considered a badge of honor, now produce flames. Language

gatekeepers even argue over the correct spelling of email (E-mail, e-mail),

and whether or not it can function as a verb or a count noun. An entire

newsgroup (alt.usage.english) devotes its bandwidth to issues of language

correctness. And the MLA begins the endless task of figuring out how to

footnote an electronic citation. As the electronic frontier recedes, the

old-timers often find themselves out of step with the conventionality the

newcomers seem so intent on uncovering. New technologies continue to offer

ways of communicating that outstrip the existing conventions, but the

pressure to develop conventions to meet the new technologies remains

strong.

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:25:07 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Surveying English



I will make this brief. Terry Irons has hit the nail on the head.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 09:49:43 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Inter-variety miscommunication



Dennis,

    Thanks for your great contribution to this rarely-documented issue.

There was a thread going on it awhile back, but it sort of disappeared.

    One of the neatest examples of cross-variety re-interpretation I

ever encountered was from a woman from Beaumont, Texas, whose last name

was Kaiser, with a typical "Confederate vowel" in the first syllable. She

went to a NCTE convention in Boston, and when she gave her name to the clerk

at the hotel registration desk, he promptly wrote it down as  Carser !



Rudy

--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 10:05:03 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: email usage



  pretty good, I never really learned how to retrieve archival list material.

  Is it on our web site? Can someone repost the web address? Thanks



The archives are available via ftp, gopher, or the web: ftp.msstate.edu/

pub/archives/ADS/List-Logs, gopher.msstate.edu (menu: 3, 1, 2), http://

www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ads-l.html.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 13:00:00 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: "Resources on Black Slang"



An inquiry has come my way, which I think I can best handle by reprinting,

and asking you to reply directly to the inquirer; as well as to ADS-L, if

your reply has general interest. - Allan Metcalf

-----------------------------

To: Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary, American Dialect Society



Sir:



I teach English at Hampton University, Hampton, Virginia. I am currently

researching information on black slang/black verbal expressions for my

dissertation topic on the borrowing of black verbal expressions by the

mainstream print media. I would appreciate your help in suggesting

resources that I may consult that would document the legitimacy of

certain black slang expressions, that is, would identify them as having

been created and used by African-Americans before passing into mainstream

use. Thank you for whatever assistance you can give me in this area.



Sincerely,

Margaret G. Lee, Assistant Professor of English

Hampton University

Hampton, VA 23668

Home Address: 18 Pirates Cove, Hampton, VA 23669

Phone: (804) 851-5773



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Mar 1996 14:14:26 EST

From:  David Bergdahl  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE 

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



On inter-variety miscommunication:



    When I visited Athens, OH from Syracuse, NY with my wife and child to

find housing Easter week 1968, it was a warm 60ish day and at the OU Inn where

we were having dinner, my wife and I ordered two planters' punches. They came

without straws. I went to the bar and asked for two straws for our drinks and

the bartender said he couldn't give 'em to me, but our waitress did. After

finally finding the waitress and explaining our difficulty, she returned with

two bottles of Stroh's beer!.



    (Athens has low back vowel mergers and coming from L.I. I don't)



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1996 to 7 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 14 messages totalling 333 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Inter-variety miscommunication (4)

 2. email usage (2)

 3. Dennis Baron's Proposal

 4. new word? (2)

 5. koofer revisited

 6. More miscommunication (2)

 7. Second Call for Papers (RMADS)

 8. Re(2): new word?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:38:12 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



 Dennis,

     Thanks for your great contribution to this rarely-documented issue.

 There was a thread going on it awhile back, but it sort of disappeared.

     One of the neatest examples of cross-variety re-interpretation I

 ever encountered was from a woman from Beaumont, Texas, whose last name

 was Kaiser, with a typical "Confederate vowel" in the first syllable. She

 went to a NCTE convention in Boston, and when she gave her name to the clerk

 at the hotel registration desk, he promptly wrote it down as  Carser !

 

 Rudy

 --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 

We would be interested in a list of Confederate vowels or a reference to

where they

could be found. Always interested in other languages.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 00:44:46 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: email usage



Natalie:



Along the same lines, how does one retrieve a thread along a particular subject?



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



   pretty good, I never really learned how to retrieve archival list material.

   Is it on our web site? Can someone repost the web address? Thanks

 

 The archives are available via ftp, gopher, or the web: ftp.msstate.edu/

 pub/archives/ADS/List-Logs, gopher.msstate.edu (menu: 3, 1, 2), http://

 www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ads-l.html.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 07:26:16 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: email usage



 Along the same lines,how does one retrieve a thread along a particular subject?



I don't know of a way other than getting the file(s) and searching with

whatever method your system has for searching -- or using gopher's search

feature if you're gophering.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 08:57:14 -0500

From:  john staczek  camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Dennis Baron's Proposal



Dennis, your proposal is to be applauded for all the openings it gives any

one of us to contribute to such a panel at MLA. Your proposal makes me

pause to rethink aspects of a paper I am presenting at AAAL on politeness

in adult chat rooms on the WWW. I will submit a paper to Allan related to

some of the themes you suggest in your proposal with the hope that we can

have such a panel as you describe at the MLA meeting. I, for one,

appreciate your taking such an initiative.

----------

John J Staczek

camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

Department of Linguistics                phone: 202.687.5741

Georgetown University

Washington DC 20057

----------



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:30:39 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



AHA! David's Strohs story (below), reminds me of an even more touching one.

While I was in Poland in the early '70's, I once returned to western New

York with the director of the institute where I worked in Pozanan for a

student and faculty exchange business trip. I took my Polish friend to a

'local bar,' walked up to the bartender, and, wanting the visitor to try a

local brew, asked for 'two Kochs.' Now, any western NYer can tell you that

the native pronunciation of Kochs is 'cooks,' but I assume my new-found

linguistic skills in Polish (and perhaps even the presence of a Polish

speaker) led me to say [koxs]; imagine the surprise (need I say terror?) of

my Polish friend and me when we ended up with two Cokes! (ARRRRRRGH!)



Dennis Preston'ski



 From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

     FUNC: English

     TEL: (614) 593-2783           BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE 

 To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX

 

 On inter-variety miscommunication:

 

     When I visited Athens, OH from Syracuse, NY with my wife and child to

 find housing Easter week 1968, it was a warm 60ish day and at the OU Inn where

 we were having dinner, my wife and I ordered two planters' punches. They came

 without straws. I went to the bar and asked for two straws for our drinks and

 the bartender said he couldn't give 'em to me, but our waitress did. After

 finally finding the waitress and explaining our difficulty, she returned with

 two bottles of Stroh's beer!.

 

     (Athens has low back vowel mergers and coming from L.I. I don't)

 

 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

         David Bergdahl

             Ohio University/Athens

         "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 09:28:52 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: new word?



In my daughter's magazine Y/M, there's a reference to a male bimbo as a

"himbo." I can get the actual documentation if anyone's interested, but

I wasn't certain if this one had been previously noted or not. Lemme know

if you want more on it.

Greg Pulliam

Illinois Institute of Technology

Chicago, Illinois



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:53:08 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: new word?



 

  In my daughter's magazine Y/M, there's a reference to a male bimbo as a

  "himbo." I can get the actual documentation if anyone's interested, but

  I wasn't certain if this one had been previously noted or not. Lemme know

  if you want more on it.



We have four or so cites for this in the forthcoming Vol. II of

Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, the earliest

from 1988. Another one would always be helpful, though, if you

feel like posting the actual cite and bibliographical info.



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 11:11:18 -0500

From:  Anita Puckett  apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU 

Subject: koofer revisited



Ok, for those of you having any interest in the origin of "koofer," I asked

the Alumni Association here at Virginia Tech for an answer. It is as

follows:



A "Coofer King" is a student who has great success with "coofers." The

word "coofer," almost unknown on other campuses, became a part of Tech

language sometime in the early 'Forties; it refers to a test or problem,

previously taken or worked, which is consulted later, sometimes illicitly,

by a student who has not yet taken the test or worked the problem. The

term was coined by students at Tech's now defunct extension branch at

Bluefield College who later transferred to Blacksburg, bringing the word

with them. The word had its origin in "coffer," a legitimate synonym for a

strongbox. Some students at Bluefield had access to a coffer there that

contained files of old tests and problems, and they soon came to refer to

the materials themselves as "coffers." In time, the sound of the word was

softened to "coofer," and still later the spelling was changed to "koofer";

it is often used as a verb in such constructions as "to coofer a problem."

(thanks to a photocopied page from some unknown publication of the Virginia

Tech Alumni Association).



Anita Puckett





Appalachian Studies Program

Center for Interdisciplinary Studies

Virginia Tech University

Blacksburg VA  24061-0227

(540) 231-9526

apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.vt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:02:13 -0500

From:  Marie Nigro  NIGRO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU.LINCOLN.EDU 

Subject: More miscommunication



Miscommunication abounds! A few years ago while visiting my daughter at

Georgetown, we dined at one of those trendy little cafes. We have a clearly

discernable "Philadelphia accent." Our waiter was foreign. I asked for a

drink of water. The waiter replied, "Yes, Ma'm, I'll take your order."



Marie Nigro

English Department

Lincoln University

Lincoln University, PA

NIGRO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU.lincoln.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 12:09:26 -0600

From:  Xiaozhao Huang  xhuang[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BADLANDS.NODAK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Second Call for Papers (RMADS)



             SECOND CALL FOR PAPERS



         ROCKY MOUNTAIN AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY





     The RMADS welcomes proposals for 15-minute presentations at the

     50th Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association Annual meeting in

     Albuquerque, New Mexico, October 24-26, 1996. Authors may submit

     abstracts of 300 words or less dealing with any aspect of dialects

     in the United States (both English and other languages) to:



     Xiaozhao Huang

     Department of English

     University of North Dakota

     Grand Forks, ND 58202-7209

     Attn: RMADS Session



     DEADLINE: March 15, 1996.





     For additional information:

     telephone: (701) 777-6393

     e-mail: xhuang[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]badlands.nodak.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:47:04 -0400

From:  Barnhart  Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 

Subject: Re(2): new word?



Himbo is an entry in OED-Additiions Series with earliest quote 1988!



Also an entry in Longman Register of New Words (Vol. 2, c. 1990) and in Oxford

Dictionary of New Words (c. 1991).



This strikes me as one of those terms that John Algeo would call a "stunt

word" rather than a neologism of some duration. Time will tell!



Regards,

David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 10:16:09 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



I'm probably crossing a line here in sharing an anecdote involving a

miscommunication across national as well as dialect boundaries, but I'll

use Dennis's story involving a Polish friend as a tenuous precedent.



In 1959-1960 our family lived for six months in Howth, Co. Dublin,

Ireland. One day I was sent to the neighborhood grocery store to buy two

cans of something (I no longer remember what). So I walked in and asked

for "a couple of cans of (whatever it was)" The young woman behind the

counter obviously didn't comprehend the totality of my request, and the

following exchange took place:



Her: "How many?" (with rising intonation indicating request for repeat of

information rather than falling indicating request for additional

information)



Me: "A couple."



Her: "We only have them in tins!"



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 13:30:11 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: More miscommunication



   Of course, some of us will now be recalling an episode of "All in

the Family" on TV, where Archie's Puerto Rican employee has come to the

Bunker house to request a raise. He's left in the kitchen drinking

lemonade or something while a domestic problem is being worked out, but

he feels his petition is urgent. After a few minutes, he sticks his head

out the kitchen door and impatiently calls, "Archie, por favor!" To

which Archie distractedly replies, "Yeah, yeah, pour some more!"



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:53:25 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



My miscommunication story takes place in Chicago. I was one of the new kids

and I had just struck up a friendship with another new girl from St Charles

Lousiana. During art class she asked me to help her draw a gull. Being from

Asbury Park NJ(the Shore) ,I generously drew her three or four stylized birds

consisting mostly of large V shapes. When I handed the paper to her she

said,"What that?" "Gulls," I said, "Sea gulls." She wadded up the paper and

threw it away yelling at me angrily, "I said GULL, like I'm a gull and you're a

gull!"  I've always felt that that exchange was the reason we never become

really good friends.



Barbara Hill Hudson

bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1996 to 8 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 224 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. himbo

 2. Inter-variety miscommunication

 3. Interesting plays on "Ford"

 4. dialects

 5.  No subject given 



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:05:18 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam"  HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU 

Subject: himbo



The _himbo_ citation I mentioned earlier is:

(headline) "BEYOND BUFF: He's blond and he's on _Baywatch_, but is David

Chokachi a himbo? Hardly! Here, the inside scoop on the hunk behind the

trunks" by Lori Majewski. _Young and Modern_(magazine, aka _YM_), April,

1996, page 80.

I now realize that this is not a new word (thanks to all who noted the 1988

earliest cite), but several folks have asked for the full citation I had

mentioned, so bear with me, please.

Greg Pulliam

IIT Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Mar 1996 22:56:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Inter-variety miscommunication



 On inter-variety miscommunication:



 I'll add a weird conversation I had in colonial Williamsberg in 1981 or

so. I was watching a silversmith making a bowl or something, and it

occurred to me that although one always heard about silversmithing in

colonial times (Paul Revere, for goodness sakes), one never heard about

silver mines. So I asked if the silver came from England. He said yes. I

then asked if it came in ingots. He said, yes, it came from England. I

said, yes, but did it come here in ingots. He looked at me as if I were

totally dense, and said again, yes, it came from England.



I finally said, does it come in blocks of silver or in already made items

that are then made into other items. Apparently, if you're interested, the

silver came in plates and trays and such and was then remade into whatever

was wanted here.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:42:18 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Interesting plays on "Ford"



While you may or may not wish to attend to the call for support herein,

I could not resist forwarding this, as otherwise you might miss out on the

interesting linguistic plays (multilingual even) on the auto name  Ford .

Will there be a Ford in your future?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)





 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

 

   Mexican Ford workers solicit your support in their battle against

   low wages.

  

   1996 is a negotiations year between Ford Motor Co. and its workers

   in three plants; Chihuahua, Hermosillo and Cuautitlan.

  

   THIS IS AN ACTION CALL TO SUPPORT THEIR FIGHT AGAINST LOW WAGES

  

   Presently, wage negotiations are taking place in Mexico for the

   Chihuahua and Hermosillo plants. Cuautitlan plant negotiations are

   scheduled for the month of March.

  

   The negotiations in Chihuahua scheduled to be resolved by the end

   of January, concluded on Tuesday, February 27, after two

   extensions. while negotiations are taking place concurrently with

   the Hermosillo plant workers representatives.

  

   The negotiations for Chihuahua got idled when FORD offered a total

   of 15% wage increase against the workers demand of 30%.

  

   In the last five years, thousands of Brazilian auto workers were

   forced to strike twice in order to obtain higher wage increases

   than what FORD offered. The FORD workers in England recently came

   out of a bitter strike where the main issue was a wage increase

   compatible to England's current cost of living.

  

   Labor leaders in Chihuahua say they were ready to strike if the

   gap did not narrow. The final compromise was of a 25% wage

   increase. Mexico suffers presently from a 50% average inflation

   rate. The price of the basic goods basket is predicted to rise by

   over 74%. The basic goods basket includes consumer goods and

   services that are all but indispensable to most of the population.

  

  

   The UAW in the United States and the CAW in Canada, are scheduled

   to hold wage and contract negotiations with Ford and the other two

   auto makers this year as well.

  

   Although Ford has increased its investment in Mexican facilities

   in recent years resulting in sizable profits due to cheaper cost

   of labor and production, it consistently follows the Mexican

   government austerity program by keeping wages way bellow current

   cost of living.

  

   "FORD" is a four letter word: The feelings of Ford workers in

   several countries have been clearly expressed against their

   employer by rewriting the company's logo illustrating Ford's place

   in their communities.

  

   Workers in Brazil rewrote the Ford logo to "FOME" which means

   "hunger" in portuguese, when in 1991 fought against an 11%

   increase proposal at a time when the country suffered an inflation

   rate of 1000% plus. English Ford workers have spelled out their

   anger by writing "F---" within the famous blue and silver oval. In

   the United States, Ford auto workers have qualified their

   company's standing in their communities by replacing "FRAUD" for

   the company's name. Santos Martinez, from the Cleto Nigmo Urbina

   committee spearheading the democratization movement in

   Cuautitlan/Ford, says that although they may think of stronger

   words, they may not fit in the small oval space, so they have to

   settle for FEOS or FUCHI, which means ugly and disgusting in

   spanish to depict the company and the labor relations atmosphere

   Ford has created in their plant.

  

   As it has been expressed during the anti-NAFTA activism, the

   interests of the workers in the U.S. and Canada in term of better

   wages and job security, are directly related to those of the

   Mexican workers.

  

   We ask you to Contact as many of the people listed below and

   insist that FORD respect the human dignity of its workers by

   affording them just and fair wages.

  

   C. T. M.

   C. Fidel Velazquez, Presidente Vallarta No. 8 Mexico DF. C.P.

   06030 Ph-011-525-703-3112

  

   Sindicato Nacional de Trabajadores de Ford Motor Co. Seccion

   Cuautitlan M. Juarez Eudonio, Sec. Gral KM. 36.5 Autopista

   Queretaro- Cuautitlan, Edo de Mexico Vallarta 8 2ndo piso Mexico,

   4 DF. Ph- 011-525-326-7212, 7375, 7550, 7573 fx-011-525-326-7476

  

   Sindicato Nacional de Trabajadores de Ford Motor Co. Juan J.

   Sosa, Sec. Gral. Ncl. Kilometro 36 1/2 Carretera Mexico-Queretaro

   Col. Lomas del Salitre Cuautitlan, Ixcala Edo. de Mexico

   CP. 54750

   ph-011-525-326-7630, 7232 fx-011-525-326-7476

  

   Alex Trotman, CEO. Ford World Headquarters The American Road PO

   Box. 1899 Dearborn, MI.48121-1899 Ph-313-322-3000 fx-313-396-2927

  

   Ford Motors de Mexico Phillippe Mellier, Pres. Reforma 333 Sexto

   Piso Col Cuauhtemoc Mexico, DF. 06500 Ph-011-525-326-6230

   fx-011-525-533-3693

  

   President Bill Clinton White House 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

   Washington, DC. 20500 Ph-202 456-1111 Fx-202 456-2461

  

   Lic. Ernesto Zedillo Presidente de la Republica Palacio Nacional

   06067 Mexico, DF. ph-011-525-515-3717 fx-011-525-515-8005, 5729

   Fax confirmation numbers: 011-525-515-9829, 8256

  

   NAFTA Officers: Robert Reich U.S. Sec. of Labor 200 Constitution

   Ave. N.W. Washington, DC. 20210 Ph-202-219-5000 fx-202-219-7312

  

   Lic. Javier Bonilla Garcia Sec. Fed. de Trabajo Anillo Periferico

   Sur 4271 Piso 4 Fuentes del Pedregal Delegacion Tlalpan Mexico.

   14140 Ph-011-525-645-9638 fx-011-525-645-5594

  

   For more information contact

   TIE-US.

   Julio Cesar Guerrero, MSW 7435 Michigan Ave Detroit, MI. 48210 Ph

   313-842-6262 px313-842-0227

  

   NOTE:

  

   You may use this letter or write your own. Please send copies to:

   TIE.US

   7435 Michigan Ave, Detroit, MI. 48210 Fx-313-842-0227

  

   I support Ford Workers fair wages:

  

   Wage negotiations between Ford Motor Co. and its workers are

   taking place in Mexico and will take place in the US and Canada

   this year also.

  

   Despite the huge profits that Ford has accrued by increasing

   operations in Mexico, the company disregards the economic and most

   basic needs of workers by keeping their wages low.

  

   Ford workers in Chihuahua, Hermosillo and Cuautitlan plants more

   than need, deserve your support to gain the respect from their

   employer in the form of fair wages, hence dignity and decent

   living for their families.

  

   Recent strikes in Brazil and England over wages are a

   manifestation of the company's insensitivity to the problem of the

   real wages' actual buying power.

  

   I urge you to use the authority in your capacity to promote fair

   wages for Ford workers. It's the just thing to do!!!

  

 

 

 

 ------------------------------ End of forwarded message 1



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Mar 1996 00:44:17 -0800

From:  Willis Ho  Willis.HO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONNER.COM 

Subject: dialects



Hi there,



How many types of English dialects are there in United States?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Mar 1996 10:13:13 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



CYBERNOIA

New Republic contributor Mickey Kaus suggests a new word to describe "the

excessive fear of electronic democracy": cybernoia. (New Republic 2/27/95

p.6)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1996 to 9 Mar 1996

**********************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 84 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. abortion in dictionaries

 2.  No subject given 

 3. % Source of Quote: Been There ... Done That (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Mar 1996 12:39:16 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: abortion in dictionaries



i've heard that there is some controversy regarding the definition of

'abortion' in american dictionaries. has anyone written a paper on

this? if so, i need a reference for it.



also, i know there are a lot of lexicographers on this list, but is

there a lexicography discussion list?



thanks in advance,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Mar 1996 15:42:55 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



 It must be emphasized, once again, that any associated supporting element

is unspecified with respect to problems of phonemic and morphological

analysis. Of

course, a descriptively adequate grammar is to be regarded as an abstract

underlying order. In the discussion of resumptive pronouns following (81), the

speaker-hearer's linguistic intuition may remedy and, at the same time,

eliminate

nondistinctness in the sense of distinctive feature theory. On our

assumptions, the

systematic use of complex symbols does not readily tolerate the requirement that

branching is not tolerated within the dominance scope of a complex symbol. To

provide a constituent structure for T(Z,K), a subset of English sentences

interesting

on quite independent grounds cannot be arbitrary in the system of base rules

exclusive of the lexicon. For further information see



http://www.ling.lsa.umich.edu/cgi-bin/chomsky.pl



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:10:32 -0600

From:  Dan Goodman  dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU 

Subject: % Source of Quote: Been There ... Done That (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 20:31:53 +0000 (GMT)

From: John Rickard  jrr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atml.co.uk 

To: stumpers  stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU 

Subject: % Source of Quote: Been There ... Done That



Fred Shapiro  fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu  wrote:



       We have a patron who is looking for the origins of this rather

    too often used phrase. Does anyone claim to be the first person to have

    said, "Been there ... done that.

 

  The earliest citation I have for this phrase is from Sports Illustrated,

  9 Feb. 1987: "Conner, as the Aussies say, has 'been there, done that.'"



I noticed in OED News (the on-line newsletter of the Oxford English

Dictionary) issue 3, January 1996, that "been there, done that" was

one of the words and phrases on their appeals list for earlier

citations; it seems that the earliest they had was 1991.



So they may be grateful if you send your Sports Illustrated quotation

to oed3[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oup.co.uk. (If you think that the OED deserves unpaid help

from the public!)



These newsletters, which can be found at

 http://www1.oup.co.uk/oup/ar/oed/newoed? , are excellent reading for

anyone with any interest in dictionaries.



--

John Rickard



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Mar 1996 to 10 Mar 1996

***********************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 136 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1.  No subject given 

 2. drouth etc. (4)

 3. ADS session at M/MLA, 2nd call for abstract



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:48:59 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



  It must be emphasized, once again, that any associated supporting element

 is unspecified with respect to problems of phonemic and morphological

 analysis. Of

 course, a descriptively adequate grammar is to be regarded as an abstract

 underlying order. In the discussion of resumptive pronouns following (81), the

 speaker-hearer's linguistic intuition may remedy and, at the same time,

 eliminate

 nondistinctness in the sense of distinctive feature theory. On our

 assumptions, the

 systematic use of complex symbols does not readily tolerate the requirement

that

 branching is not tolerated within the dominance scope of a complex symbol. To

 provide a constituent structure for T(Z,K), a subset of English sentences

 interesting

 on quite independent grounds cannot be arbitrary in the system of base rules

 exclusive of the lexicon. For further information see

 

 http://www.ling.lsa.umich.edu/cgi-bin/chomsky.pl

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 03:53:43 -1000

From:  nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU

Subject: Re: drouth etc.



"Drouth" is the pronunciation I learned in the North Woods of Maine as a

child. In school the teachers tried insuccessfully to get us to say

"drought" like folks from away. I also pronounce trough as "trouth."

(rhymes with wroth or Roth). Noah Webster's prescriptions didn't penetrate

very far into the back country. My relatives back still use "drouth," but

"trouth" has gone the way of the buggy whip holder and for the same reason.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 10:30:43 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: drouth etc.



In our town in the upper Hudson Valley, it was /troth/ rhyming with roth,

but whether this is still so, I don't know. Since dairy farming is common

there, I would guess that the troughs remained pertinent and perhaps

remained /troths While it is possible that teachers from other areas

may use the "correct" pronunciation, I doubt that the word would arise enough

for them to have an impact. As kids we used it because there was a high,

round trough near a gristmill/feed store fed directly off of some water

source, a canal perhaps. The horses were long gone for the most part, but

we kept the trough in use for squirt gun fights, hence trough was high

frequency for us.

Bill King  Univ. of Arizona / SLAT



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:00:12 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: drouth etc.



The first time I went to a wedding as child, I thought that the bride and

groom promised to "plight" their "trough" (with an /f/). I took the

locution to mean that they were to share their food from then on. I didn't

figure out what they were really promising until I studied Chaucer.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 13:49:43 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: drouth etc.



   So is this subject related to the process that gives Spokane, WA's

dialect of English the word spelled *height* and pronounced [hait8],

where [8] represents the sound 'theta'? You'd expect such a phone or

phoneme to be unstable, as I understand articulatory and historical

phonetics. And sure enough, you can find all kinds of weird "th" behavior

in our dialect.



   For example, we also have [lEn8] or [len8] for *length* and [sc^rEn8]

or [sc^ren8] for *strength*. ...Pardon the IPA (Improvised Phonetic

Alphabet)...



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Mar 1996 19:40:43 -0500

From:  BETH LEE SIMON  SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 

Subject: ADS session at M/MLA, 2nd call for abstract



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------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Mar 1996 to 11 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 11 messages totalling 301 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Call For Abstracts for ADS at M/MLA (2nd call, 2nd try)

 2. british english question (3)

 3. Come 'ere (3)

 4. Asian (2)

 5. Second Call for Papers (RMADS)

 6. Bounced Mail



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 07:46:01 EST

From:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Subject: Call For Abstracts for ADS at M/MLA (2nd call, 2nd try)



Very sorry about the previous gibberish.



          SECOND ANNOUNCMENT



     Please submit an ABSTRACT OR BRIEF PROPOSAL



     MIDWEST MEETING OF THE AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY



     at the M/MLA, Nov. 7-9, 1996, at the Minneapolis Marriot

     City Center, Minneapolis MN



Email and faxed materials are welcome.





Submit by March 25, 1996 to



   Professor Beth Simon

   Dept. of English and Linguistics

   Indiana University - Purdue University

   Fort Wayne, IN 46805



email:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



fax:   219-481-6985







thanks,

beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 11:21:01 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: british english question



(incidentally, how do we parse "american dialect society"--is it an

american society devoted to dialects or a society devoted to american

dialects?)



i need to know whether "asian" in british english has a sense that

means "south asian/indian." now, i know that "asian" is used to

refer to people of indian/pakistani/sri lankan descent in britain, but

the fact that it is used to refer to these people does not mean that

it has a sense that means "indian"--just like if i refer to my

siblings and they all happen to be male, it doesn't mean that

"siblings" has a sense that is synonymous with "brothers".



so, the best kind of evidence that i could get for an 'indian' sense

would be if it were contrasted with other words for people

from asia--something like "asians and chinese live there" or "the law

discriminates against asians and chinese."



i've checked three british dictionaries and not found this sense, but

then the south african dictionaries don't have the sense either, even

though south african english definitely does have the "south asian

only" sense.



does anyone know or have any references for me to chase down?



thanks as ever,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:51:47 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet  UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.SHS.NEBO.EDU 

Subject: Come 'ere



Hello,



I have noticed that the "H" is dropped in "Come here" except when the

speaker is being stern, emphatic, or unfriendly. Does that

generalization seem true around the country?



Tom



utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:23:31 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Come 'ere



   Every USA and Canadian dialect of English I've encountered drops the

"H" of 'come here' in the circumstances described. The vowel of 'come'

in this phrase also tends to reduce to schwa or zero, doesn't it? The

same is, I think, true of 'come on' etc.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:19:06 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: british english question



At Duke University, "Asian" as applied to students, faculty, and

employees means 'persons whose ancestors come from Asia."



As for ADS, I parse it ((American Dialect) Society), though that doesn't

mean that we aren't interested in more general questions of dialect.

  Ron Butters

  Duke University

  Durham, NC



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 13:28:23 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Come 'ere



Compare also "Kiss 'im" and "Kiss 'er"(but "Kiss HIM" and "Kiss HER")--this

is a part of a general trend

in English to variably reduce initial /h/in unstressed suyllables and it

surely goes back

centuries (and was successul in standard English in giving us categorical

"it" rather than "hit").



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 12:01:54 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: british english question



 Growing up in England, in geography we refered to Asian's when we refered

to people generaly and generically from any part of the Asian continent,as

also in European, Australian or even British, on the other hand Indians were

from India, Scots from Scotland, Pakistanies from Pakistan, Sri Lankan were

from Sri Lanka and of course (because of the movies as apposed to Geography

books) Red Indians were American Indians. All of this gets very smudgy when

you get into dialects and derogetary attitudes in Britain, then anything

go'es as they say. But we were taught names, places and people from our

Geography book. I clearly remember the brown skinned lady in a sari (both

very exotic as we had never seen anyone brown, let alone in a sari pre TV at

that time)and the caption underneath said "Tea is grown in Cylon, and is

picked by hand .Tea also grows in India, Pakistan and other countries in

Asia but not in Asia Minor ".etc...etc.. Crissie Trigger





 (incidentally, how do we parse "american dialect society"--is it an

 american society devoted to dialects or a society devoted to american

 dialects?)

 

 i need to know whether "asian" in british english has a sense that

 means "south asian/indian." now, i know that "asian" is used to

 refer to people of indian/pakistani/sri lankan descent in britain, but

 the fact that it is used to refer to these people does not mean that

 it has a sense that means "indian"--just like if i refer to my

 siblings and they all happen to be male, it doesn't mean that

 "siblings" has a sense that is synonymous with "brothers".

 

 so, the best kind of evidence that i could get for an 'indian' sense

 would be if it were contrasted with other words for people

 from asia--something like "asians and chinese live there" or "the law

 discriminates against asians and chinese."

 

 i've checked three british dictionaries and not found this sense, but

 then the south african dictionaries don't have the sense either, even

 though south african english definitely does have the "south asian

 only" sense.

 

 does anyone know or have any references for me to chase down?

 

 thanks as ever,

 lynne

 

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------

 M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

 Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

 University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

 Johannesburg 2050

 SOUTH AFRICA

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:41:12 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

Subject: Asian



Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

this substitution?

Ideas?

Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:19:57 -0700

From:  Diane and Andrew Lillie  diandy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BYU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Second Call for Papers (RMADS)



Are electronic abstracts accepted?



Diane Lillie

BYU

--

"The nice thing about egotists is that they don't talk about other

people"

Lucille S Harper



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:36:20 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



  Date:     Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:25:50 -0500

  From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)"  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACPUB.DUKE.EDU

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 1538 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

  ------------- Message in error (46 lines) --------------------------

  Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:26:46 -0500 (EST)

  From: Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu 

  Subject: Re: Asian and "PC"

 

  "Asian" seems to me to be broader in scope than "Oriental" had become

  before "Oriental" fell from grace.

 

  I still refuse to use the term "PC"

  until it is applied to euphemisms across the board and not

  just used for

  euphemisms that Pat Buchanan would sneer at. For example, why doesn't

  anyone call "prolife" a "PC" term that replaced the much more accurate

  "anti-abortion"? Euphemistic language games are at least as much a part

  of right-wing political endeavor as of the left, but only the left takes

  the hit when the term "PC" is employed. "PC" is in this sense in itself a

  right-wing "PC" term.

 

  On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ron Rabin wrote:

 

    Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 17:41:12 -0500

    From: Ron Rabin  RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU 

    Subject: Asian

   

    Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

    When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

    now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

    this substitution?

    Ideas?

    Ron Rabin

    Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:51:22 -0500

From:  Aaron Drews  drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian



On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ron Rabin wrote:



  Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

  When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

  now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

  this substitution?

  Ideas?



    Funny that. I just had a similar discussion on another

(non-linguistic) mailing list.

    It seems that "oriental" carries the same weight as "nigger" to

some people. Plus, "oriental" refers to rugs, and Asian refers to

people. The Persians aren't happy about this though.

    Somebody postulated that "oriental" has become derogatory because

of literary connotations of the word, which implies barbarism or

something like that. By some sort of osmosis, those that determine what

is and is not PC have adopted the same definition for "oriental" and

declared it un-PC.

    Personally, I'm not satisfied with that explanation, and I'm

still trying to figure out why "oriental" is so bad. If anyone has an

answer, please let me know!!!

--Aaron E. Drews



_________________________________________________________________________

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or

prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,

or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to

petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Mar 1996 to 12 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 33 messages totalling 960 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Asian (2)

 2. Thursday week (12)

 3. English Dialect Information Exchange

 4. Asian and "PC" (2)

 5. Simon's ADS 2nd call for abstracts

 6. Clabber milk (5)

 7. _American Speech_ Index

 8. Clabber milk -Reply (5)

 9. Thursday week - this/next Thursday

 10. Lakota word 'unhcegila'

 11. Clabber milk -Reply -Reply

 12. Grits (was Re: Clabber milk)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 01:11:15 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Asian



  On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ron Rabin wrote:

 

    Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

    When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

    now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

    this substitution?    Ideas?

 

well, i don't know if this is an actual _change_ in meaning, but

often in u.s. "asian" means "east asian." so, if you're an indian

person filling out a census or affirmative acation form, there can be

some confusion about whether you're an "asian/pacific islander" or

"caucasian". of course, you're both, except on the reading of

"caucasian" (not to be found in most dictionaries, but to be found

all over in actual use) that really means "white of European descent."



hence, people say things like "he has asian eyes"--meaning he has an

epicanthic (sp?) fold--which, of course, you don't have if you're

from the south asian subcontinent.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:05:01 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian



 On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ron Rabin wrote:

 

   Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

   When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

   now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

   this substitution?

   Ideas?



Aaron Drews' comments made me think of how "oriental" is used to describe

religions. Although we often talk of Christianity as as Western religion,

I run across comments in myth texts in which Christianity, like the cult of

Adonis, is called an "oriental religion." But it would be hard to call

Christianity an "Asian religion." Such a term would make me think more of

religions like Buddhism or Shintoism, which come from farther east. The

problem is that Asia is too large. It's hard to think of the Middle East

as Asian or West Asian or of Middle Easterners as Asians or West

Asians--which makes you wonder about Russians as Eastern Occidentals or

Californians as Western Occidentals or--time to go read finals for the

quarter.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:07:26 -0500

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKUX.UTCC.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Thursday week



One of my students forwarded this query to me from a friend of his at

another university. Suggestions?



"Do you know the expression "Thursday, week" (or it could be any proper name

of any weekday, "week")? In case you don't know the phrase, it means "a

week from this coming Thursday."



Craig has issued a challenge to me to find out the origin of this

phrase--you know how I rise to meet a challenge!! Where do you think I

should begin my quest?"



Thanks,

Bethany

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:18:32 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill"  koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



Bethany spake thusly:

 "Do you know the expression "Thursday, week" (or it could be any proper name

 of any weekday, "week")? In case you don't know the phrase, it means "a

 week from this coming Thursday."



My British and Irish friends all use

"Thursday, a week" with the meaning

you describe.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 312.996.8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX    ;

;URL: http://www2.uic.edu/depts/langlab/          ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:34:12 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: English Dialect Information Exchange



Dear ADS subscribers,



This is a notice to publicise a mailing list which we

have recently established. It is called the English Dialect

Information Exchange and is intended to be a discussion and

information forum for all interested in all apects of English

Dialects. As it has only just been set up subscribers are as yet few,

but hopefully through notices such as this there will be sufficient

interest to generate a worthwhile and interesting list. Please feel

free to forward this notice to other linguistic circles who may be

interested. For more information on the list and on how to

subscribe, send the message:



INFO EDIE-CECTAL



to the address:



listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sheffield.ac.uk



Yours interactively,

Charlotte Thomas and Jon Fyne



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)









##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:50:56 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



  Bethany spake thusly:

   "Do you know the expression "Thursday, week" (or it could be any proper name

   of any weekday, "week")? In case you don't know the phrase, it means "a

   week from this coming Thursday."

 

  My British and Irish friends all use

  "Thursday, a week" with the meaning

  you describe.

 

When I first moved to Durham in 1967, an older friend from Charlston, SC,

used "Thursday week" = 'a week from Thursday' nd eplained that it was

aristocrsaqtic Charlestonian. He is quite an anglophile, however.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:53:12 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart  LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



Just last Friday I heard someone say "Monday week" meaning a week from

Monday. I had never heard that before and was a bit confused by it.

I believe this person is a native of Geogia.



***********************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

Dept. of English (300 Park Hall)   Phone:  (706) 542-2260

University of Georgia        Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205        E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

***********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:27:25 -0500

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



 One of my students forwarded this query to me from a friend of his at

 another university. Suggestions?

 

 "Do you know the expression "Thursday, week" (or it could be any proper name

 of any weekday, "week")? In case you don't know the phrase, it means "a

 week from this coming Thursday."

 

 Craig has issued a challenge to me to find out the origin of this

 phrase--you know how I rise to meet a challenge!! Where do you think I

 should begin my quest?"



The first cite I can think off the top of my head is that Elvis Costello and

the Attractions and The Undertones (bands from Liverpool/London and Derry,

Northern Ireland, respectively) both released songs called "Wednesday Week"

in 1980. This leads me to believe that it's primarily a U.K.

phrase--everyone I know in the U.S. who has used this phrase has nicked it

off one of these records.



Stewart

______________________________________

Stewart Allensworth Mason

Technical Editor, Access Innovations, Inc.

Albuquerque NM

http://www.homeless.com/homepages/masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu.html

Current screen saver phrase: "I'm still here, Happer..."



***MORE COOL WORDS***



1. Dromedary

2. Pinking

3. Tallywhacker

4. Zombie

5. Bombazine



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:41:21 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian and "PC"



"Asian" seems to me to be broader in scope than "Oriental" had become

before "Oriental" fell from grace.



I still refuse to use the term "PC" until it is applied to euphemisms

across the board and not just used for euphemisms that Pat Buchanan would

sneer at. For example, why doesn't anyone call "prolife" a "PC" term that

replaced the much more accurate "anti-abortion"? Euphemistic language

games are at least as much a part of right-wing political endeavor as of

the left, but only the left takes the hit when the term "PC" is employed.

"PC" is in this sense in itself a right-wing "PC" term.





On Tue, 12 Mar 1996, Ron Rabin wrote:



 Subject: Asian



 Has the meaning of Asian changed recently in American English?

 When Oriental became no longer PC, Asian was substituted.  Does Asian

 now mean what Oriental used to mean whatever Asian used to mean before

 this substitution?

 Ideas?

 Ron Rabin

 Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:49:03 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian and "PC"



 "Asian" seems to me to be broader in scope than "Oriental" had become

 before "Oriental" fell from grace.

 

Ron Butters wrote:



"Euphemistic language games are at least as much a part of right-wing

political endeavor as of the left, but only the left takes the hit when the

term "PC" is employed.

"PC" is in this sense in itself a right-wing "PC" term."



Right on! One person's "terrorist" is another person's "freedom fighter"

or "patriot."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:03:39 EST

From:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Subject: Simon's ADS 2nd call for abstracts



I'm having some e-troubles at this end. Would someone let me know whether

my second call for abstracts and proposals for the ADS meeting at the

M/MLA appeared here in ungarbled form?



Thanks,



reply to me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu

beth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:12:27 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



I'm sure our British list members will tell us that "Xday week" is

standard usage in the British Isles. Personally, I don't recall ever

hearing an American say anything but "a week from Xday."



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 12:43:09 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



  Just last Friday I heard someone say "Monday week" meaning a week from

  Monday. I had never heard that before and was a bit confused by it.

  I believe this person is a native of Geogia.



I've used it and heard it all my life. I thought it was ordinary

U.S. English.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   native of Mississippi



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:33:34 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Clabber milk



Help! My milk has soured and I don't know what to call it.



More seriously, I have been trying to map some regional terms across

Kentucky, and I have come upon a problem that may affect my analysis. I

have been concentrating on the terms Davis & Houck use in their critical

92 AS article examining the question of a Midland dialect. I am also

including terms that Kurath 49 considers to be distinctly Midland.



Anyway, based on Davis & Houck 92, I have been treating the variants for

sour milk "clabber" and "clabber(ed) milk" as northern and southern

terms, respectively. But in recently preparing a presentation I was

reading through Kurath's Word Geography, and on page 70, he clearly

writes, "Clabber is the Southern expression, clabber milk that of the

South Midland."  His map (Fig 124) shows "lobbered milk" and "loppered

milk" to be the Northern terms.



Being uncertain, I decided to check volume one of DARE, and behold, I

found contradictory information. In DARE, "clabber" is cited as chiefly

Northern, and Kurath is quoted as a source.



Currently I am in a quandry. Can anyone help me out here? The

resolution could have consequences for some interpretive issues.



Terry Irons



P.S. Even though somebody said I hit the nail on the head about the

internet survey, I agree with what Lance said.



 --

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 11:57:11 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford  dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



I'm pretty sure my Ozark mom says 'clabbered milk' if that's any help.



On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:



  Help! My milk has soured and I don't know what to call it.

 

  More seriously, I have been trying to map some regional terms across

  Kentucky, and I have come upon a problem that may affect my analysis. I

  have been concentrating on the terms Davis & Houck use in their critical

  92 AS article examining the question of a Midland dialect. I am also

  including terms that Kurath 49 considers to be distinctly Midland.

 

  Anyway, based on Davis & Houck 92, I have been treating the variants for

  sour milk "clabber" and "clabber(ed) milk" as northern and southern

  terms, respectively. But in recently preparing a presentation I was

  reading through Kurath's Word Geography, and on page 70, he clearly

  writes, "Clabber is the Southern expression, clabber milk that of the

  South Midland."  His map (Fig 124) shows "lobbered milk" and "loppered

  milk" to be the Northern terms.

 

  Being uncertain, I decided to check volume one of DARE, and behold, I

  found contradictory information. In DARE, "clabber" is cited as chiefly

  Northern, and Kurath is quoted as a source.

 

  Currently I am in a quandry. Can anyone help me out here? The

  resolution could have consequences for some interpretive issues.

 

  Terry Irons

 

  P.S. Even though somebody said I hit the nail on the head about the

  internet survey, I agree with what Lance said.

 

  --

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

  Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

  Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

  Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 13:58:42 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: _American Speech_ Index



Alan mailed me a disk last week that contains an index to back issues of

_American Speech_. It would be ideal if we could figure out how to make

it easily usable from our web page. Meanwhile, it's available for any of

you who would like to ftp it. It's in the "Files" directory at ftp.msstate.

edu/archives/ADS/ -- reachable from the web by clicking on FTP near the

bottom of the ADS web page. The filename is amspeech.zip. I noticed a

good many error messages while zipping it. Alan had told me that some of

the data seemed to be messed up. But at least some of it may be useful to

you. Alan can tell you more about the background of the disk.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:16:26 -0600

From:  Elizabeth Gregory  WPODOM1.AGCOM.egregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU 

Subject: Clabber milk -Reply



Here's a little Texas information on soured milk--



In _The Regional Vocabulary of Texas_ (1962), Bagby Atwood says:



To designate milk that has turned sour and thick, the almost

universal Texas word is 'clabber', while only a few informants give

'clabber(ed) milk'. (p.62)





In _From Blinky to Bluejohn: A Word Atlas of Northeast Texas_ (1970),

Fred Tarpley reports that 82 percent of his respondents described

"milk that has soured and thickened" as 'clabber(ed) milk'--he does

not report any instances of 'clabber' alone.



Blinky and bluejohn, two other Texas terms used to refer to

less-than-fresh milk, are another story.



Elizabeth Gregory

Texas A&M University



P.S. I do remember the terms 'clabber' and 'clabbered milk' from my

own childhood, mostly used by older people (Caucasian and

African-American). I was born in 1962 in Montgomery, Alabama.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 15:48:45 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



Elizabeth,



Blinky and blue john both show up in Kentucky. Milk is blue john before

it becomes clabber. Blinky is used mostly as a predicate adjective.



Could you give me more specific bibliographic information on the article

or monography "From Blinky to Blue John" that you mention?



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:38:10 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Thursday week - this/next Thursday



Thank you for your responses to my query about the origin of "Thursday

[or any other day of the week] week." Most responses have described

regional distribution. I still don't know much about origin. I have heard

the phrase all my life (se TX).



A semantically related set of structures is "this Thursday" vs.

"next Thursday." I have missed more than one social event because of a

misunderstanding about which Thursday was intended by the phrase "next

Thursday." It seems to me that some speakers always contast "this" and

"next," using the phrase "this Thursday" for the next one on the

calendar and the phrase "next Thursday" for the second one coming up on

the calendar, while the rest of us generally don't use the "this"

construction, hence do not read the contrast in the phrase

"next Thursday." "Next Thursday" is the next one coming up, to me.

Is this contrast something I should have learned in se TX?



Thanks,

Bethany

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://ljp.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 21:50:12 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



Looking in joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary, this lists

both "clabbered" and "loppered" as meaning sour or curdled milk.

"Clabbered" is listed as being in use in Munster (republic of

Ireland) from 1854 to the date of publication (1905), survey 1895.

Could this be of gaelic origin? Can anyone elucidate on this matter?



"Loppered" is cited as being in use in several areas of Scotland,

northern england, and right down to the South of East Anglia. So it

appears that this is not a purely american dialect term. does anyone

have an etymology?



Charlotte Thomas



  Help! My milk has soured and I don't know what to call it.

 

  More seriously, I have been trying to map some regional terms across

  Kentucky, and I have come upon a problem that may affect my analysis. I

  have been concentrating on the terms Davis & Houck use in their critical

  92 AS article examining the question of a Midland dialect. I am also

  including terms that Kurath 49 considers to be distinctly Midland.

 

  Anyway, based on Davis & Houck 92, I have been treating the variants for

  sour milk "clabber" and "clabber(ed) milk" as northern and southern

  terms, respectively. But in recently preparing a presentation I was

  reading through Kurath's Word Geography, and on page 70, he clearly

  writes, "Clabber is the Southern expression, clabber milk that of the

  South Midland."  His map (Fig 124) shows "lobbered milk" and "loppered

  milk" to be the Northern terms.

 

  Being uncertain, I decided to check volume one of DARE, and behold, I

  found contradictory information. In DARE, "clabber" is cited as chiefly

  Northern, and Kurath is quoted as a source.

 

  Currently I am in a quandry. Can anyone help me out here? The

  resolution could have consequences for some interpretive issues.

 

  Terry Irons

 

  P.S. Even though somebody said I hit the nail on the head about the

  internet survey, I agree with what Lance said.

 

  --

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

  Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

  Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

  Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

  (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

 



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:03:03 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



  Blinky and blue john both show up in Kentucky. Milk is blue john before

  it becomes clabber. Blinky is used mostly as a predicate adjective.



Isn't "blue john" simply skimmed milk?



On the question of "clabber," I'm confused about how many variations

we're talking about. Are we talking about "clabber" by itself versus

"clabber milk" or "clabbered milk" (versus other totally different terms)?

I can't remember which I heard most often: just clabber or clabber milk

(parallel with butter milk) or clabbered milk. I think all three terms

were used in Mississippi in the late '40s and early '50s.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:07:04 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



   Does any of you Southerners know about the supposed 5 ways of

serving grits? I've only been through North Carolina once, five years

ago, so the restaurants there are my only experience of this. I seem to

remember that grits could be ordered "plain", "covered", etc., and

*"smathered"*. That last is a word I've never heard elsewhere in

America. Any info out there?



   Thanks.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 14:20:59 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Lakota word 'unhcegila'



   Beg pardon if I'm absentmindedly sending this to the wrong list...



   But, about 'unhcegila', I seem to recall Father Buechel defining it

as mastodon or woolly mammoth or some such. Explanation: "bones were

dug up to be used as medicine," I believe. I was always puzzled about

that, and don't know any Lakotas to ask. Regardless of the status of

'unhcegila' as a water demon or as Ice Age creature (--or both?

Interesting thesis--) does the word have some connection with terms for

peyote? And did Lakota peyote names originally mean something else?



   Thanks to anyone who may be able to help on this;



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:38:22 -0600

From:  Elizabeth Gregory  WPODOM1.AGCOM.egregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply -Reply



Dear Terry,



Here's the citation:



Tarpley, Fred. _From Blinky to Bluejohn: A Word Atlas of Northeast

Texas_. Wolfe City, Texas : The University Press, 1970.



The book is available from the Texas A&M Evans Library (I have it

checked out at the moment but will gladly return it if you need to do

interlibrary loan). I am not familiar with the press who published it,

but in his acknowledgment Tarpley thanks the "staff of the University

Press of Henington Publishing Company. Tarpley himself seems to be or

have been on faculty at East Texas State University in Commerce.



I hope this is helpful to you. If I can do anything else, just let me

know. Good luck with your study!



Elizabeth Gregory



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:38:12 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



Stewart,



You've got a good theory, but I very much doubt that my grandmother (who

died in 1982), or many of the other senior crowd that I know, who use/s

the "Monday week" construction ever heard of Elvis Costello or The

Undertones, much less listened to their music. The term has been around

in the south for a lot longer that the past 15 or so years. Much longer.



Bob



On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Stewart Mason wrote:



  The first cite I can think off the top of my head is that Elvis Costello and

  the Attractions and The Undertones (bands from Liverpool/London and Derry,

  Northern Ireland, respectively) both released songs called "Wednesday Week"

  in 1980. This leads me to believe that it's primarily a U.K.

  phrase--everyone I know in the U.S. who has used this phrase has nicked it

  off one of these records.

 

  Stewart

  ______________________________________

  Stewart Allensworth Mason

  Technical Editor, Access Innovations, Inc.

  Albuquerque NM

  http://www.homeless.com/homepages/masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu.html

  Current screen saver phrase: "I'm still here, Happer..."

 

  ***MORE COOL WORDS***

 

  1. Dromedary

  2. Pinking

  3. Tallywhacker

  4. Zombie

  5. Bombazine

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 16:48:21 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Grits (was Re: Clabber milk)



    Does any of you Southerners know about the supposed 5 ways of

  serving grits? I've only been through North Carolina once, five years

  ago, so the restaurants there are my only experience of this. I seem to

  remember that grits could be ordered "plain", "covered", etc., and

  *"smathered"*. That last is a word I've never heard elsewhere in

  America. Any info out there?



I've never heard those terms in relation to grits (or the last one in

relation to anything else either). I would guess that "plain" might

mean without butter, but usually grits arrive at the table "plain"

anyway and you add the amount of butter you want. There are, of course,

various grits dishes other than ordinary (plain?) grits -- e.g., cheese

grits. But such special status would be indicated by calling them

something like cheese grits.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:41:42 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



 I've used it and heard it all my life. I thought it was ordinary

 U.S. English.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Like Natalie, I grew up hearing people (with Southern linguistic

background) say "a week Thursday," "Thursdays a week ago," "Wednesday two

weeks ago," etc. I decided not to use these expressions, because they were

obviously old-fashoned, considering the people who used them, but why

knows? -- I might slip and say one some day.



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:50:51 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



  Help! My milk has soured and I don't know what to call it.



I can't help with bibliography right now, but milk turned blinky and then

sour before if clabbered. And then the product was clabber in our family,

not 'clabbered milk'. Arkansas-Texas South Midland variety. Some people

confused blinky and blue john milk, but of course we knew the right terms!

Fred Tarpley did a survey in Texas in the 1960s and found some interesting

distributions, referring in his publication to the "blinky / blue john

isogloss." With pasteurization and homogenization milk doesn't do any of

these things on its own.



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 17:50:41 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



  Like Natalie, I grew up hearing people (with Southern linguistic

  background) say "a week Thursday," "Thursdays a week ago," "Wednesday two

  weeks ago," etc. I decided not to use these expressions, because they were

  obviously old-fashoned, considering the people who used them, but why

  knows? -- I might slip and say one some day.



But wait -- It was "Thursday week" that I've always thought was "normal"

US English. I don't think I've ever heard "a week Thursday" except in

a sense like "How long has SOnSo been gone?" "It will be a week Thursday."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:05:17 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



Natalie said:

 Isn't "blue john" simply skimmed milk?



In our family, blue john was skim milk that had so little butterfat that it

was tasteless or even tasted a little bad. We always left enough cream in

the milk to keep it from tasting like blue john. We used the term 'blinky'

for the early stage of souring. And blue john that was blinky really

tasted bad. Tarpley found regional distribution of the meanings of these

terms in East Texas, but I don't have his book and don't recall

particulars.



 On the question of "clabber," I'm confused about how many variations

 we're talking about. Are we talking about "clabber" by itself versus

 "clabber milk" or "clabbered milk" (versus other totally different terms)?

 I can't remember which I heard most often: just clabber or clabber milk

 (parallel with butter milk) or clabbered milk. I think all three terms

 were used in Mississippi in the late '40s and early '50s.



Natalie reminds me of my quandaries and what I figured out as a teenager

(early teens). Before the curds were fully developed into large chunks

we'd talk about that as clabbered milk, but we didn't consume it at that

stage. What we would eat or make cottage cheese of was clabber, the curds.

Mother had several uses for whey too. When I came across different

responses in dialect surveys (much past my teens), I just thought some

people didn't quite understand all the stages of the process, or maybe

didn't like or eat clabber. Don't we all think our family language is

right -- that is, in regard to dialect items?



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 18:13:15 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



  In our family, blue john was skim milk that had so little butterfat that it

  was tasteless or even tasted a little bad. We always left enough cream in



My only experience with the term "blue john" is that my mother sometimes

laughs and says that what we regularly drink now is what "Auntie" (her

aged great aunt who lived with them for a while when my mother was a child)

would have called "blue john."



  Mother had several uses for whey too. When I came across different

  responses in dialect surveys (much past my teens), I just thought some

  people didn't quite understand all the stages of the process, or maybe

  didn't like or eat clabber. Don't we all think our family language is



I must confess that I don't understand much about the process and never

tasted clabber(ed) (milk). I do remember it, though. I remember that

my Daddy got my mother to make it for him from time to time when I was

little and that my brother and I said it looked horrible. I don't know

when/why he stopped drinking it. I do know that my memories of it are

from my early childhood, not later.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 19:30:44 -0500

From:  Stewart Mason  masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZIAVMS.ENMU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



Bob,



I did not suggest that either originated the phrase. I suggested that since

it had appeared twice in a British/Irish context in a short period of time

and that since every other written use of it I have ever seen has been of

U.K. origin (Douglas Adams' _So Long and Thanks for All the Fish_ comes to

mind, as do several of Colin MacInnes' novels), that perhaps it was chiefly

a Britishism. I supported it by saying that everyone *I* know (sadly, I

never met your grandmother) who uses that construction had consciously

picked it up from these sources.



Stewart



 Stewart,

 

 You've got a good theory, but I very much doubt that my grandmother (who

 died in 1982), or many of the other senior crowd that I know, who use/s

 the "Monday week" construction ever heard of Elvis Costello or The

 Undertones, much less listened to their music. The term has been around

 in the south for a lot longer that the past 15 or so years. Much longer.

 

 Bob

 

 On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Stewart Mason wrote:

 

   The first cite I can think off the top of my head is that Elvis Costello and

   the Attractions and The Undertones (bands from Liverpool/London and Derry,

   Northern Ireland, respectively) both released songs called "Wednesday Week"

   in 1980. This leads me to believe that it's primarily a U.K.

   phrase--everyone I know in the U.S. who has used this phrase has nicked it

   off one of these records.

  

   Stewart

______________________________________

Stewart Allensworth Mason

Technical Editor, Access Innovations, Inc.

Albuquerque NM

http://www.homeless.com/homepages/masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu.html

Current screen saver phrase: "I'm still here, Happer..."



***MORE COOL WORDS***



1. Dromedary

2. Pinking

3. Tallywhacker

4. Zombie

5. Bombazine



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:03:47 -0500

From:  "Aaron E. Drews"  drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



   Like Natalie, I grew up hearing people (with Southern linguistic

   background) say "a week Thursday," "Thursdays a week ago," "Wednesday two

   weeks ago," etc. I decided not to use these expressions, because they were

   obviously old-fashoned, considering the people who used them, but why

   knows? -- I might slip and say one some day.

 

 But wait -- It was "Thursday week" that I've always thought was "normal"

 US English. I don't think I've ever heard "a week Thursday" except in

 a sense like "How long has SOnSo been gone?" "It will be a week Thursday."

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



    To me, "a week Thursday" sounds like it will be next week. Then

again, I spent the past year in Scotland, where all folk talk funny anyway

:).

    I have noticed quite a few similarities between Scottish varieties

of English and Sounthern English, including VBE (or is that AAVE?). Does

anybody have any sources on this? I'm guessing it was all of the Scots

that migrated a couple of centuries ago that explains this.

    Aaron Drews



__________________________________________________________________________

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or

prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech,

or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to

petition the Government for a redress of grievances.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1996 to 13 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 38 messages totalling 996 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Blinky milk etc (3)

 2. "this Thursday" (2)

 3. Thursday week - this/next Thursday (2)

 4. Thursday week (3)

 5. English Dialect Information Exchange (4)

 6. grits

 7. Curds and whey (2)

 8. Clabber milk (2)

 9. "smathered" (3)

 10. ADS Constitution & Bylaws

 11. Clabber milk -Reply (2)

 12. Thursday next, etc. (5)

 13. Boundaries of 'next' and 'last'

 14. Clabber ad infinitum (3)

 15. cobbed (2)

 16. Thursday week, Thursday last

 17. Bounced Mail



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 00:22:21 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Blinky milk etc



There seems to have been quite a discussion yesterday about various things

that can happen to milk that one might or might not want to have happen.

Despite the fact that. For the most part they struck this New Yorker as words

one reads about in dialect studies. In other words, I know more about where

people say CLABBER than I know about what it is. The exception was BLINKY,

which I picked up somewhere along the way, probably during my grad school

years in Austin. Since I can actually reach my copy of Atwood (_Regional

Vocabulary of Texas_) while sitting at my computer, I checked what Atwood had

to say. As of 1950 or so, when his data were collected, BLINKY was somewhat

less archaic than BLUE JOHN, which was decidedly archaic. CLABBER in contrast

was universal.



Donald Lance asserted in the meantime that with homogenization and

pasteurization, milk doesn't do any of these things on its own. Well, Donald, I

don't claim any kind of magic touch. But milk from my local Stop-n-Shop if

left alone when I'm out of town most definitely does get blinky. I couldn't

swear to it, never having encountered clabber in its native habitat, but I'm

pretty sure I generated some clabber only a few years ago. After I poured it

down the drain and ran the disposal, I went out for dinner!



Now, in response to Bethany's question about this Thursday and next

Thursday...On Tuesday, both this Thursday and next Thursday are the day after

tomorrow. On Friday, this Thursday is yesterday and next Thursday will occur

in six days, next week. I don't recall any confusion or mix-ups about this

either in my native region (New York) or when I lived in Texas or Florida. Of

course, in those episodes, most of my contacts were University-type folks, and

perhaps not linguistically representative.





Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 01:44:46 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: "this Thursday"



Never had a prpoblem w/ "this Thursday", like Alice. But when the

period is much longer, ambiguity arises. Eg, in October, Nov, even

Dec. one might still want to refer to the just-passed summer as "this

summer", though logically it should be "last summer"-- that tendency

to stress nearness on the proximal deictic, rather than future-ness,

actually seems entirely logical too, though it's a different logic!

    --peter patrick

    georgetown u. lx.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 22:53:28 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King"  jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Thursday week - this/next Thursday



 I have missed more than one social event because of a

 misunderstanding about which Thursday was intended by the phrase "next

 Thursday." It seems to me that some speakers always contast "this" and

 "next," using the phrase "this Thursday" for the next one on the

 calendar and "next Thursday" for the second one coming up on

 the calendar . . .



In my own syntax, and what I assume to be that of those around me,

"this Thursday" is a very elastic term, and as an editor I always try

to write around it unless the context is clear.



It depends, to a great degree, on how close the speaker is to Thursday.

On a Wednesday or Tuesday, "this Thursday" clearly means the next one

and "next Thursday" means a little over a week from now. But on Sunday,

and perhaps Monday, "next Thursday" might well mean the very next

Thursday, instead of the one that's a week-and-a-half in the future.

But it might not. And on Friday and maybe Saturday, "this Thursday"

usually means yesterday or the day before yesterday, not the Thursday

of the following week.



More often than not, I'd bet you'll find that "this x-day" is generally

translated as "the x-day that occurs/occurred in the week that we're

currently in," that, like daylight saving time, at about midnight on

Saturday night "next Thursday" becomes "this Thursday," etc. And what

had been "this Thursday" becomes "last Thursday."



As for Thursday week, I've never used it myself but my mother, and even

moreso the older members of her family, all used the locution

regularly. Southeast Arkansas, and far from aristocratic.



JRKing



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Mar 1996 23:05:40 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King"  jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Blinky milk etc



 I checked what Atwood had

 to say. As of 1950 or so, when his data were collected, BLINKY was

somewhat

 less archaic than BLUE JOHN, which was decidedly archaic. CLABBER in

contrast

 was universal.



In 1970 or so, when I was an adolescent, neither "blinky" (of milk that

is starting to sour but still drinkable in a pinch) nor "blue john"

(skim milk) was archaic in southern Oklahoma. Not very archaic, in the

sense that my parents used them. I never picked up "blue john" myself,

but still use "blinky." "Clabber" was a term I had heard, and knew had

something to do with soured milk, but it wasn't part of our diet and it

was well into the age of pasteurization and homogenization, so I

couldn't be familiar with just what it might specifically mean. The

distinction between "clabbered milk" as milk that has soured and

"clabber" as the chunks one retrieves from such milk (or former milk)

certainly sounds reasonable.



JRKing



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:18:58 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



  "Do you know the expression "Thursday, week" (or it could be any proper name

  of any weekday, "week")? In case you don't know the phrase, it means "a

  week from this coming Thursday."

 

i think it's likely in all of the major non-american (i.e., more

closely british) varieties of english. it's standard in south

africa. there's no comma in between the 2 in writing and the

stress/intonation is rather like a compound. unlike kathleen (was

that who it was?) i've never heard "thursday a week" from brits,

south africans, or irish--it's definitely thursday-week.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:31:12 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



another ambiguity that puzzles me:



is the english dialect information exchange for the exchanging of

info about dialects of english or dialects of england (i.e., english

english)?



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:45:27 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



  another ambiguity that puzzles me:

 

  is the english dialect information exchange for the exchanging of

  info about dialects of english or dialects of england (i.e., english

  english)?



Sorry if the message was a little unclear. The forum is supposed to

be a mailing list much like this one, but one which addresses the

dialects which are to be found withhin the British Isles. Of course

anyone is welcomed to subscribe, just like there are people of

several nationalities subscribed to this one. It would be

interesting to discover thwt perhaps a word which was thought to be

exclusive to England is used across the waters too. I just thought it

would be nice to allow the people of England the opportunity to

discuss

our native dialects, like this list allows the people in America.



Hope to get lots of subscribers to get this baby off the ground!



Charlotte



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:34:00 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: grits



Don't leave out cheese grits. Grits are also referred to a Georgia ice cream.



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



  Does any of you Southerners know about the supposed 5 ways of

 serving grits? I've only been through North Carolina once, five years

 ago, so the restaurants there are my only experience of this. I seem to

 remember that grits could be ordered "plain", "covered", etc., and

 *"smathered"*. That last is a word I've never heard elsewhere in

 America. Any info out there?

 

    Thanks.

 

    Dave

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:49:26 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "this Thursday"



See Chuck Fillmore's 'Santa Cruz Lectures on Deixis' for a discussion of

different 'dialacts' regarding the boundaries of 'next' and 'last.' My wife

and I belong to different ones, resulting in much confusion (and, after we

discovered our problem, interesting clarification routines).



For example, it's Monday and you say you are leaving 'next Thursday.' Which

Thursday is that? We have a marked family difference (mine is the Thursday

of the following week; my wife's is the 'very next' Thursday of the same

week). I am sure this variation is widespread, but, I suspect, it does not

have geographical significance.







 Never had a prpoblem w/ "this Thursday", like Alice. But when the

 period is much longer, ambiguity arises. Eg, in October, Nov, even

 Dec. one might still want to refer to the just-passed summer as "this

 summer", though logically it should be "last summer"-- that tendency

 to stress nearness on the proximal deictic, rather than future-ness,

 actually seems entirely logical too, though it's a different logic!

     --peter patrick

     georgetown u. lx.



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 04:52:18 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Curds and whey



Natalie wrote:

 

 I must confess that I don't understand much about the process and never

 tasted clabber(ed) (milk). I do remember it, though. I remember that

 my Daddy got my mother to make it for him from time to time when I was

 little and that my brother and I said it looked horrible. I don't know

 when/why he stopped drinking it. I do know that my memories of it are

 from my early childhood, not later.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I was showed the process back in 2nd grade about 45 years ago so am a little

rusty.

It would be nice if someone would delineate the process. It is always helpful

to little miss Muffet fans, especially the new little ones. Hell, I still don't

know what a tuffet is! Maybe curds and whey invite spiders who have tired of

waterspouts.



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:04:27 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



See how things are screwed up?



The 'American' Dialect Society discusses dialects of the 'Americas' (not

exclusively US, not even exclusively English -- see the 'mission statement'

of the society).



The proposed discussion list will discuss dialacts found within the

'British Isles.' The following clarification does not answer whether or not

this will be limited to



    a) dialects of the English language within the British Isles (not

at all limited to 'English English,' by the way, as speakers of Irish

English should be quick to note, although, I assume this would include

'substratally' influenced varieties from other languages or varieties of

English such as Pakistani English English, West Indian Scottish English,

etc...)



or will include



    b) Dialects of any language within the British Isles.



We should have taken Mencken's suggestion.



In spite of continuing ambiguity, I suspect the majority of contributions

will deal with 'British Isles English'; an excellent idea. I will certainly

tune in.



Congratulations.



Dennis











   another ambiguity that puzzles me:

  

   is the english dialect information exchange for the exchanging of

   info about dialects of english or dialects of england (i.e., english

   english)?

 

 Sorry if the message was a little unclear. The forum is supposed to

 be a mailing list much like this one, but one which addresses the

 dialects which are to be found withhin the British Isles. Of course

 anyone is welcomed to subscribe, just like there are people of

 several nationalities subscribed to this one. It would be

 interesting to discover thwt perhaps a word which was thought to be

 exclusive to England is used across the waters too. I just thought it

 would be nice to allow the people of England the opportunity to

 discuss

 our native dialects, like this list allows the people in America.

 

 Hope to get lots of subscribers to get this baby off the ground!

 

 Charlotte

 

 ##########################################################

 Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

 CECTAL

 Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

 University of Sheffield

 Sheffield

 S10 2TN

 UK

 

 "Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

 can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

 (P.Wright, 1974)



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:26:56 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman"  egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM 

Subject: Thursday week



This has been entered without a label in Merriam-Webster dictionaries

since 1934. It can refer to either the following Thursday or to the

preceding Thursday:



...unless he got moving...he would be drawing the dole by the

following Monday week--Edna O'Brien



Last Friday week I stood in a receiving line with your brother and

sister-in-law for a good hour--Flannery O'Connor



The OED has 19th century citations from Dickens's time on.



E.W.Gilman



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 07:19:29 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Curds and whey



   little and that my brother and I said it looked horrible. I don't know

   when/why he stopped drinking it. I do know that my memories of it are

   from my early childhood, not later.



Replying to my own posting... Maybe homogenization is the clue here.

Maybe he stopped drinking it when we no longer got the milk in bottles

delivered to the front porch with the cream sitting there at the top.

Pasteurization isn't related. I know we never had any unpasteurized milk

in my lifetime. (I know that because I've heard my mother tell the story

about her horror when she discovered that a "crazy neighbor" had given my

brother some "raw milk." That happened when he was around three or four.

I was born when he was four.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 08:06:03 CST

From:  "Joan H. Hall"  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



Terry,



Look more closely in DARE. "Clabber" is labelled "chiefly Sth, Midl and

West." It is "clobber" that is labelled "chiefly Nth, esp NEast."

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:35:10 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Thursday week



The suspicion remains that it's limited to the British Isles (including the

Irish Republic, of course) and Southern U.S. I don't think we've had any

outliers who claim intimacy with "Xday week"; growing up in New York and

living in California, Wisconsin, and New England, I've only encountered it in

Britannic contexts myself and I don't think we've had other northern/midland

speakers attest it, have we? Curious.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

This has been entered without a label in Merriam-Webster dictionaries

since 1934. It can refer to either the following Thursday or to the

preceding Thursday:



...unless he got moving...he would be drawing the dole by the

following Monday week--Edna O'Brien



Last Friday week I stood in a receiving line with your brother and

sister-in-law for a good hour--Flannery O'Connor



The OED has 19th century citations from Dickens's time on.



E.W.Gilman



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 09:25:03 -0600

From:  Ramblin' Randal  RDW2101[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU 

Subject: "smathered"



I have heard "smathered" used quite frequently here in central Tennessee. It

usually applies to a food that is covered with something such as butter. A

typical usage would be, "Those biscuits sure were good smathered in/with

butter." Also, "Thursday week" is standard among the older speakers of this

area.

Randal Williams

Tenn Tech University



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 10:55:32 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



 Dennis writes:



 The 'American' Dialect Society discusses dialects of the 'Americas' (not

 exclusively US, not even exclusively English -- see the 'mission statement'

 of the society).



Where does one find the "mission statement of the society"? Or does

Dennis mean the editorial policy of MERICQN SPEECH (printed inside the

back cover of ech issue)?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:49:56 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: ADS Constitution & Bylaws



Oops! Ron Butters has pointed out a neglected matter. It has been a long time

since we published the ADS constitution and bylaws. If you religiously (or

even sacrilegiously) save back issues of NADS, you'll find these documents in

23.1 (January 1991) 10-12. But to make them more available, I'm sending the

complete text to Natalie and asking her to put it on our Web site.



The C & B are too long to stuff in everyone's e-mailbox, but if you would

like an e-mail copy, send me a message and I'll oblige.



Meanwhile, here is the Constitutional statement Ron asked about:



II. PURPOSE

The American Dialect Society is organized in the interest of the academic

community and not for profit. Its object is the study of the English language

in North America, together with other languages or dialects of other

languages influencing it or influenced by it.



- Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:30:19 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



I've always heard the term "blue john" in reference to skim milk myself;

that's from someone who grew up in the idyllic NC mountains. I always

thought that it was because the milk sans fat did actually take on a

slightly blue color, but that, of course, could simply have come from

association with the term blue john.



As for blinky, the first time I heard it was just a few years ago from a

friend who grew up in Texas.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:53:15 -0700

From:  bruce dwight bolinging  bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU 

Subject: Thursday next, etc.



   The phrase "Thursday week" is part of a larger pattern of

expressions used to designate a fixed time (see OED,s. v. "week", 5b); e.g.

Thursday next, Thursday week, this day month, etc. The second term in

such expressions can be either prospective or retrospective: Thursday

next (prospective), Thursday last (retrospective), this day month

(either), April was a year (retrospective; dialectal only), Thursday week

(either).

   This pattern is well attested in the English of England and of the

Republic of Ireland, as well as in the Mid-Ulster dialect. It is absent

from Scots, but is abundantly attested in Ulster Scots, which in this

case has undergone the influence of the Mid-Ulster dialect. The presence

of the pattern in the Mid-Ulster and Ulster Scots dialects is of course

significant for explaining its appearance in the speech of the American

South.

   Below are a few examples of the pattern from my corpus of Mid-Ulster

speech of the 18th and 19th centuries.



   (1) his doughter Sally is dead and that day weacke hir sister

Doughter died (prospective)



   (2) I recived your letter this day munth (retrospective)



   (3) Mother died in June last was a year (retrospective)



   (4) untill May was a year when I took ill (retrospective)



   I would be interested to know whether such retrospective

constructions as "Thursday last" or "Thursday week" (meaning "a week ago

Thursday") coexist in the speech of those Southern American speakers who

have "Thursday week" in its prospective sense.



   Bruce D. Boling

   University of New Mexico

   bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:17:39 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday next, etc.



    I would be interested to know whether such retrospective

  constructions as "Thursday last" or "Thursday week" (meaning "a week ago

  Thursday") coexist in the speech of those Southern American speakers who

  have "Thursday week" in its prospective sense.



It would never enter my mind to interpret "Thursday week" as anything

other than a week from next Thursday. That's the only meaning I've ever

intended when using it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:53:49 EST

From:  Betty Phillips  EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ROOT.INDSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday next, etc.



My intuitions accord with Natalie's. Thursday week is always a week

from next Thursday. (I'm from south Georgia.)



Betty Phillips

ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]root.indstate.edu





Date sent:   Thu, 14 Mar 1996 13:17:39 -0600

Send reply to: American Dialect Society  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

From:      Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject:    Re: Thursday next, etc.

To:       Multiple recipients of list ADS-L  ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 



    I would be interested to know whether such retrospective

  constructions as "Thursday last" or "Thursday week" (meaning "a week ago

  Thursday") coexist in the speech of those Southern American speakers who

  have "Thursday week" in its prospective sense.



It would never enter my mind to interpret "Thursday week" as anything

other than a week from next Thursday. That's the only meaning I've ever

intended when using it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:50:25 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boundaries of 'next' and 'last'



   That's thought - provoking. I now realize that for as long as I can

remember, I've been very aware of the confusion possible in the use of

each of these words. And possibly in my case it's also due to dialect

confusion, i.e. between my mother's NW Montana and my father's E

Washington speech.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:57:18 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: "smathered"



   Is another grits word "plastered" or some such?



   And has anybody else heard the expression "cobbed", as for example

when my 62 - year - old dad says "Boy, when we took my brother to the

casino, we really got cobbed on that one!" It means 'royally screwed

over', I think, but evidently isn't considered obscene...



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 11:58:25 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk -Reply



  So, what does the brand name "Clabber Girl" refer to?!



  Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:38:29 -0600

From:  Samuel Jones  smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Clabber ad infinitum



When I was growing up in the eastern part of Oklahoma, on a ranch-farm

in or near Muskogee, Oklahoma, "clabbered milk" was a quite common expression.

Clabbered milk was supposed to help make extra good biscuits. Further,

there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber Girl Baking Powder,"

advertised, as I dimly recall. on signs sporting a young woman in a bonnet,

a long farm dress, and maybe(?) an apron. CLABBER GIRL BAKING POWDER. I

am attempting to run down not the girl but a patent which might reveal the

company's name. It could jus as simply be Clabber Girl Baking Powder Co.



That's it!



smjones



____________________________________________________________________________

DR. SAMUEL M. JONES          INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu

5434 Humanities Building          FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW)

455 North Park Street

__________________________________________

University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message)

Madison, WI 53706-1483          * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -

                        * VOICE MAIL--Lv message)



____________________________________________________________________________

"Pen-y-Bryn"          TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home)

122 Shepard Terrace             608 + 233-4748 (Home)

Madison, WI 53705-3614

____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:41:37 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber ad infinitum



  there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber Girl Baking Powder,"



There still is. A can of it is sitting in my kitchen cabinet right now.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:12:12 -0500

From:  Bob Haas  rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU 

Subject: Re: cobbed



Does this term allude to the pre-toilet-paper usage of corn cobs for

personal hygiene? If so, "cobbed" certainly has more flair than, say,

"getting really Sears catalogued." Hmm.



Bob



On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:



    And has anybody else heard the expression "cobbed", as for example

  when my 62 - year - old dad says "Boy, when we took my brother to the

  casino, we really got cobbed on that one!" It means 'royally screwed

  over', I think, but evidently isn't considered obscene...



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 14:21:44 -0700

From:  bruce dwight bolinging  bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday next, etc.



   Here are a couple of quite acceptable sentences in Mid-Ulster/Ulster

Scots that might be of interest to you in the light of your reply to my

query:



   (1) he come back Thursday week "he came back a week ago Thursday"



   (2) he come back last Thursday week "he came back a week ago last

Thursday"



   These pattern with the sentence: I recived your letter this day

munth "I received your letter a month ago today." With this compare:

I'm away to Amerikay this day month "I'm off to America a month from today."



   In asking my question I was simply concerned to know whether

Southern American English might have lost the retrospective meaning of

such phrases in favor of the prospective



   Bruce D. Boling

   University of New Mexico

   bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:54:27 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON  BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday next, etc.



Re: Thursday week



I've used the expression all my life (a very loooooong life), and I've always

meant a week from that day.





Barbara Hill Hudson

bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:06:16 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Blinky milk etc



 Donald Lance asserted in the meantime that with homogenization and

 pasteurization, milk doesn't do any of these things on its own. Well, Donald, I

 don't claim any kind of magic touch. But milk from my local Stop-n-Shop if

 left alone when I'm out of town most definitely does get blinky. I couldn't

 swear to it, never having encountered clabber in its native habitat, but I'm

 pretty sure I generated some clabber only a few years ago. After I poured it

 down the drain and ran the disposal, I went out for dinner!



Today's milk does spoil, but the result isn't exactly like the sour milk,

clabbered milk, and clabber (curds and whey) of "olden days," You can buy

some tablets to put in modern milk and make it sour and clabber up so you

can make cottage cheese. After my parents no longer kept a milk cow, my

mother would make buttermilk and cottage cheese by using tablets that she

bought; the name of the tablets almost makes its way to the surface of my

mind, but not quite. My point was that what happens to today's milk seems

to me to be somewhat different from what raw milk used to do with the

bacteria that came from the cow (or milk lot). Raw milk turned blinky and

then sour fairly fast if you left it out of the icebox/refrigerator.

Because modern milk doesn't taste like our blinky milk of old, I don't feel

comfortable using 'blinky' but don't mind of others of non-rural persuasion

do.



To turn the discussion to dialect research:

I've wondered whether foodways and dialect have gotten mixed together in

some of the data analysis. This conversation about clabber has brought

back old memories. What we called clabbered milk had smaller curds that

had not yet coalesced into the large curds of clabber. Sometimes either my

mother or my father (I forget which) would stir up the clabbered milk and

drink it. So I wonder whether the incidence of 'clabbered milk' bears some

relation to the distribution of the consumption of this item. (Language

and culture, etc.) Clabber, like buttermilk, was thought to be good for

digestion; in fact, nowadays doctors recommend that we should eat some

yogurt or drink buttermilk to restore "natural" intestinal flora after

taking a batch of orally-administered antiobiotics.



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:15:02 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week - this/next Thursday



 In my own syntax, and what I assume to be that of those around me,

 "this Thursday" is a very elastic term, and as an editor I always try

 to write around it unless the context is clear.



I recall some discussion, maybe in Austin 30 or so years ago, of the use of

"this Thursday" having different meanings to Yankees and Texans. Bethany

Dumas reminds us that 30 years haven't changed things.



 As for Thursday week, I've never used it myself but my mother, and even

 moreso the older members of her family, all used the locution

 regularly. Southeast Arkansas, and far from aristocratic.



For the last 10-15 years I've noticed an increasing incidence of 'moreso'

in student papers. So far I haven't seen it in TIME Magazine, newspapers,

etc., but it seems to be an adverb on the rise. Any observations from the

rest of you? You lexicographers out there: How is it showing up in your

files? Is it about to make its way into dictionaries?



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:48:47 EST

From:  Albin Warth  albin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRONTIER.COM 

Subject: Re: Clabber ad infinitum



  When I was growing up in the eastern part of Oklahoma, on a ranch-farm

  in or near Muskogee, Oklahoma, "clabbered milk" was a quite common expression.

  Clabbered milk was supposed to help make extra good biscuits. Further,

  there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber Girl Baking Powder,"

  advertised, as I dimly recall. on signs sporting a young woman in a bonnet,

  a long farm dress, and maybe(?) an apron. CLABBER GIRL BAKING POWDER. I

  am attempting to run down not the girl but a patent which might reveal the

  company's name. It could jus as simply be Clabber Girl Baking Powder Co.

 

  That's it!

 

  smjones





I'm almost certain that this was the Calumet (Baking?) Co. I'm familiar

with this because the owner of Calumet (name of Wright, I think) also

owned Calumet Farms, which bred many fine racehorses, "Clabber Girl"

being one of these. I never knew how she got her name until I spotted

an antique can of Clabber Girl Baking Powder.





-Albin

albin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]frontier.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 18:06:38 -0700

From:  Kat Rose  Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: Thursday week, Thursday last



I've used Thursday week (next Thursday) and Thursday last (last Thursday)

since childhood, and I'm from the Quint Cities area in Illinois and Iowa.

My grandmother also used the terms sometimes; she was from Muscatine, IA,

raised in Dubuque. Some of her family were Tories who left the Colonies for

Canada during the American Revolution.



But I read voraciously, so I don't know whether I picked this usage up from

family, community, or books.



While I don't remember the terms being commonly used, I don't think anyone

ever had any trouble understanding what I meant.



Kat Rose,

Language-lovin' lurker



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 19:21:47 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, Charlotte Thomas wrote:



  Looking in joseph Wright's English Dialect Dictionary, this lists

  both "clabbered" and "loppered" as meaning sour or curdled milk.

  "Clabbered" is listed as being in use in Munster (republic of

  Ireland) from 1854 to the date of publication (1905), survey 1895.

  Could this be of gaelic origin? Can anyone elucidate on this matter?



I believe Kurath 49 specifically mentions something like [xlaeb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r] which

occurs in Gaelic.



Tim Frazer



my [ae] = "ash"



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 19:33:44 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



  Date:     Thu, 14 Mar 1996 20:18:22 -0500

  From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)"  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from WORLD.STD.COM

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 2517 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

 ------------------ Message in error (61 lines) --------------------------

  Date: Thu, 14 Mar 1996 19:11:53 -0500

  From: cls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com (Charity Stafford)

  Subject: Re: Clabber ad infinitum

 

     Date:     Thu, 14 Mar 1996 16:48:47 EST

     From: Albin Warth  albin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRONTIER.COM 

     Subject:   Re: Clabber ad infinitum

 

  Albin Warth wrote:

 

     When I was growing up in the eastern part of Oklahoma, on a ranch-farm

     in or near Muskogee, Oklahoma, "clabbered milk" was a quite common

     expression. Clabbered milk was supposed to help make extra good

     biscuits. Further there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber

     Girl Baking Powder," advertised, as I dimly recall. on signs sporting

     a young woman in a bonnet, a long farm dress, and maybe(?) an apron.

     CLABBER GIRL BAKING POWDER. I am attempting to run down not the girl

     but a patent which might reveal the company's name. It could just as

     simply be Clabber Girl Baking Powder Co.

    

     That's it!

    

     smjones

 

 

    I'm almost certain that this was the Calumet (Baking?) Co. I'm familiar

    with this because the owner of Calumet (name of Wright, I think) also

    owned Calumet Farms, which bred many fine racehorses, "Clabber Girl"

    being one of these. I never knew how she got her name until I spotted

    an antique can of Clabber Girl Baking Powder.

 

 

  Nope - the company name on the can is Hulman & Co. of Terre

  Haute, Indiana.  (Up here in Boston we have Rumford and

  Calumet brands, but I have a can of Clabber Girl that I

  bought while visiting my sister in Knoxville, because I was

  so taken with the name and the old-fashioned illustration

  on the label.

 

  Charity

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:42:53 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: "smathered"



On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:



    And has anybody else heard the expression "cobbed", as for example

  when my 62 - year - old dad says "Boy, when we took my brother to the

  casino, we really got cobbed on that one!" It means 'royally screwed

  over', I think, but evidently isn't considered obscene...

 



I'd forgotten all about this expression. We used it exactly that way when

I was iln college (U of Iowa, 1958-62). I recall it from highschool as

well. Did you check the Random House slang dictionary?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:51:04 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: cobbed



On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Bob Haas wrote:

 

  Does this term allude to the pre-toilet-paper usage of corn cobs for

  personal hygiene? If so, "cobbed" certainly has more flair than, say,

  "getting really Sears catalogued." Hmm.



I always assumed that the meaning was cruder than 'toilet paper'--that it

had somethilng to do with the insertion of the cob into the anal canal.

But I read Faulkner's SANCTUARY (in which a charactger named "Popeye" uses

a corn cob as a tool for commiting a horrible rape) in

high school, and that may have affected my perception of the meaning

here--that and the commonplace Iowa expression "He walks like he has a cob

up his arse."



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1996 to 14 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Clabber ad infinitum

 2. Blinky milk etc

 3. cobbed

 4. Atmark

 5.  No subject given 

 6. newspaper names

 7. "smathered"

 8. Boundaries of 'next' and 'last'

 9. nonword words

 10. "cobbed" etc.

 11. Clabber milk (2)

 12. "smathered", "cobbed", etc.

 13. The AS Files

 14. daveno

 15. 'going to'



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Mar 1996 21:17:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Clabber ad infinitum



At 2:41 PM 3/14/96, Natalie Maynor wrote:

   there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber Girl Baking Powder,"

 

 There still is. A can of it is sitting in my kitchen cabinet right now.

   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I had a can in my kitchen, too. Picture on it shows a girl carrying a

plate of biscuits and a mother and children in the background. No bonnet -

though I think the old cans had her in one. They are, however, all dressed

'old fashioned.' It's manufactured by Hulman & Company, Terre Haute, Ind.

47808.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 02:58:44 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Blinky milk etc



What is the origin if the word "clabber?" I don't think anyone has touched

on it yet.



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 03:10:00 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: cobbed



 On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Bob Haas wrote:

  

   Does this term allude to the pre-toilet-paper usage of corn cobs for

   personal hygiene? If so, "cobbed" certainly has more flair than, say,

   "getting really Sears catalogued." Hmm.

 

 I always assumed that the meaning was cruder than 'toilet paper'--that it

 had somethilng to do with the insertion of the cob into the anal canal.

 But I read Faulkner's SANCTUARY (in which a charactger named "Popeye" uses

 a corn cob as a tool for commiting a horrible rape) in

 high school, and that may have affected my perception of the meaning

 here--that and the commonplace Iowa expression "He walks like he has a cob

 up his arse."

 

This coincides with the expression "getting cornholed." It has nothing to

do with corny jokes.



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 03:31:03 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Atmark



 Atmark refers to the [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-sign used in e-mail addresses. Is this a new term?



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 03:46:21 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject:  No subject given 



Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 09:02:42 PST

From: leahg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sfgate.COM (Leah Garchik)

Subject: non-word words



Hello. I am Leah Garchik, I write for the San Francisco Chronicle. As

suggested by a Berkeley linguist, I am using this means to find

someone who knows something about non-word words. I'm interested in

writing an essay about words like "blah, blah, blah,'' used to meann

"etc., etc.'' or "duh,'' used to mean "You can't think I'm THAT

stupid.''

    I've been collecting a small list of these, and wonder if

anyone has studied them informally or formally. If you can help, yada

yada, that would be terrific.

    I may be e-mailed at this address, or even better, call me (for a

real live conversation) at (800) 227-4423 X8426 or (415) 777-8426. Thanks

so much for your help on this.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 04:06:22 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: newspaper names



(from the Bong bulletin)



PEJORATIVES. Charlotte (N.C.) Observer: Charlotte Disturber,

Charlotte Perturber, NotServer and Blurber, reports Thompson

Allred (web480[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charweb.org). It also shares a nickname with

the Portland Oregonian: The O or Big O.

   -- The Hawaii Tribune Herald's (and Hawaii Sumo News') Hunter

Bishop (hunterb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interpac.net) advises that yes, they are

sometimes the Hawaii Buffoon-Herald

   -- The Brooklyn (N.Y.) Home Reporter and Brooklyn Spectator?

The Home Distorter and The Brooklyn Speculum or Brooklyn

Speculator.



 the Pejorative Poster listing more than 120

"street" newspaper names ($3) and the Chagrin Falls Commercial

Scimitar Foreign Correspondent press card ($1.50) are available

for quick delivery. Place orders at BONG Center, 2517 Rugby Road,

Dayton, Ohio 45406. Prices include delivery in North America.



Happy to be a catalyst for change or even large bills, BONG Chief

Copyboy Charley Stough, Dayton Daily News, 45 S. Ludlow St., urges

all BONGers to participate in the democratic process and save

their receipts! E-mail copyboy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dma.org. Phone (513) 225-2445

after 3 p.m. eastern. Fax 225-2489. See the BONG Bull website at

http://www.au.com/bong/



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 07:58:55 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "smathered"



Like Ron, I have known this expression since High School (Louisville area,

mid-1950's), although I have not seen in this discussion yet what I believe

to be the obvious etymological link (at least the one I have always given

it unquestioningly, if one can pretend to recall the folk etymologies of

adolescence).

For me the term was simply a euphemism for 'corn-hole,' a wide-spread label

for anal intercourse. To say one was 'corn-holed' (=cheated) simply

parallels general usage (in which any term for intercourse may be used to

equal 'cheat,' a practice so ubiquitous with 'screwed,' for example, that

the connection for many younger speakers now between the sexual sense and

the derived one appears to be lost). Notice that even metaphoric sexual

expresssions (e.g., 'reamed') readily transfer to the 'cheated' sense.

In my adolescent etymological innocence, I simply connected the verbal

'cob' under discussion here with the 'corn' of 'corn-hole.'

Hence, 'cobbed.'







 On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:

 

     And has anybody else heard the expression "cobbed", as for example

   when my 62 - year - old dad says "Boy, when we took my brother to the

   casino, we really got cobbed on that one!" It means 'royally screwed

   over', I think, but evidently isn't considered obscene...

  

 

 I'd forgotten all about this expression. We used it exactly that way when

 I was iln college (U of Iowa, 1958-62). I recall it from highschool as

 well. Did you check the Random House slang dictionary?



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 08:38:04 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Boundaries of 'next' and 'last'



Growing up I was used to hearing "Xday next" and "Xday last" but now

even that usage seems to be dying out.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:



    That's thought - provoking. I now realize that for as long as I can

  remember, I've been very aware of the confusion possible in the use of

  each of these words. And possibly in my case it's also due to dialect

  confusion, i.e. between my mother's NW Montana and my father's E

  Washington speech.

 

     Dave

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:04:16 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: nonword words



We published an article on "da-da-da-da-da-da"(= 'etcetera') a few years

ago in

AMERICAN SPEECH--I think the author was Dennis Baron. I can't give you

the exact cite right now, but if you have trouble looking it up let me know.



Ron Butters

Professor of English, Duke University

General Editor, American Dialectd Society Publications



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:12:26 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: "cobbed" etc.



I think Dennis and Seth are absolutely right about the connection of

COBBED with "CORNHOLE". However, it is the case that COBBED and REAMED

are a little different in semantic range from SCREWED--COBBED and REAMED

can (for me) mean simply 'defeated badly': Duke was recently

REAMED/COBBED (cf. CREAMED) by EMU at basketball, but they were not SCREWED.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:26:58 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



On Thu, 14 Mar 1996, Timothy C. Frazer wrote:



  I believe Kurath 49 specifically mentions something like [xlaeb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r] which

  occurs in Gaelic.



   I don't know if he can be reached via e-mail (what a big help I

am!), but a professor of linguistics at Barnard College / Columbia

University, Joe Malone, is an extremely gifted Celticist. He was always

very helpful as well with etymological requests when I was studying with

him. For what it's worth...



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 13:35:30 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.CORP.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



    I don't know if he can be reached via e-mail (what a big help I

 am!), but a professor of linguistics at Barnard College / Columbia

 University, Joe Malone, is an extremely gifted Celticist. He was always

 very helpful as well with etymological requests when I was studying with

 him. For what it's worth...



Try jmalone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]barnard.columbia.edu



--Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 12:53:40 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Re: "smathered", "cobbed", etc.



   Thank you all for "cobbed" information; I'm learning far more about

it than I'd dreamed I might. Funny how even a linguist doesn't

necessarily always notice peculiarities in close family members' speech.



   Quite the informal survey going on here. May I chip in another

term? Spokane people, and no one else I've ever spoken with, often call

a couch / sofa a "daveno" pronounced [daev[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nou], with initial stress. My

sense is that it's old-fashioned as I never hear people under about 50

years old use it. Does this term show up elsewhere?



   FYI, those who don't say "daveno" here say "couch"; nobody here says

"daveno" for the nearby small city of Davenport, WA.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 15:10:55 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: The AS Files



Have any of you ftp'ed the _American Speech_ index I put online a few

days ago? Alan is going to post a sort of introduction to it, telling

where the disk came from, what it contains, etc., but he asked me to

check on the state of the files as I got them. So far I haven't done

anything but glance at some of the files. I was thinking that maybe some

of you had tried using them and could post your experiences.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 16:12:37 CST

From:  "Joan H. Hall"  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: daveno



"Daveno" is labelled "chiefly NW" in DARE Vol 2. It's from a trademark.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:28:00 -0500

From:  RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: 'going to'



I've been meaning to write and thank you for your kind correction to my

French grammar, but I wanted to try to figure out first why I wrote what I

wrote (i.e., "Je vais a' laver mes chats" and "Je vais a' me laver les

mains," neither of which should have "a'"). Obviously, interference from

English "I am going to wash my hands," etc., would lead the native speaker of

English to assume that French also had the 'to' morpheme. However, I learned

my French entirely from books, so I suspect that at least at one time I knew

that in French one says "Je vais + INF" and not *"Je vais a' +INF". I think

that what happened is that Spanish interferred--in Spanish one says, "Voy a

estudiar"; I learned what Spanish I know years AFTER I learned French. I

believe that the Spanish interferred more than the English!



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Mar 1996 to 15 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 224 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "cobbed" etc. (2)

 2. 'going to'

 3. Clabber milk

 4. newspaper names (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 03:52:21 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: "cobbed" etc.



Ron Butters wrote:



 I think Dennis and Seth are absolutely right about the connection of

 COBBED with "CORNHOLE". However, it is the case that COBBED and REAMED

 are a little different in semantic range from SCREWED--COBBED and REAMED

 can (for me) mean simply 'defeated badly': Duke was recently

 REAMED/COBBED (cf. CREAMED) by EMU at basketball, but they were not SCREWED.

 



I've always presumed creamed was short for cremated.



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:13:12 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: 'going to'



Ron's observations have been more carefully studied in recent research

(showing the influence of 2nd languages on 3rd, 3rd on 2nd, and the like).

One of our grad students here at MSU is working on the interfernece of

English on the acquisition of Japanese by Korean and Chinese learners. She

has shown that errors in Japanese (in modification, negation, and some

other areas) made by Chinese and Korean learners reflect English (rather

than L1) patterns.



Anecdotally, I remember once I was in Germany after a pretty intensive

Polish-learning experience (in Poland). I met a colleague who introduced me

to a Spanish-speaking colleague of his and suggested that we speak Spanish

to each other. I'm sure that my memory of the moment attributes more than

actually happened, but I recall a great struggle with what I thought was am

pretty well-entrenched language, and the new Polish stuff slipped in all

over the place. The other interesting thing I recall about this was that

the interferences were all pretty much at structure-word (prepositions,

etc...) levels, not content.



Your brain sure is a funny place. (Not yours in particular, Ron.)



Dennis





 I've been meaning to write and thank you for your kind correction to my

 French grammar, but I wanted to try to figure out first why I wrote what I

 wrote (i.e., "Je vais a' laver mes chats" and "Je vais a' me laver les

 mains," neither of which should have "a'"). Obviously, interference from

 English "I am going to wash my hands," etc., would lead the native speaker of

 English to assume that French also had the 'to' morpheme. However, I learned

 my French entirely from books, so I suspect that at least at one time I knew

 that in French one says "Je vais + INF" and not *"Je vais a' +INF". I think

 that what happened is that Spanish interferred--in Spanish one says, "Voy a

 estudiar"; I learned what Spanish I know years AFTER I learned French. I

 believe that the Spanish interferred more than the English!



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 07:23:43 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: "cobbed" etc.



Ron is right. I overlooked the ambiguity of 'cobbed' and 'reamed.' They

may, in my usage as well, mean 'beat to a pulp' (as 'screwed' may not).



I find, however, that the 'beat to a pulp' meanings for me are usually

transitive ('Texas reamed Michigan') and the 'cheated' meanings are often

passive (especially with the 'get' passive it seems) ('Michigan got

reamed').



I also think Seth is wrong about the 'cream' - 'cremate' realtionship. I

always assumed that 'creamed' meant 'beaten' (which is what you used to do

to get cream before Fizzy Crap or whatever it's called was produced in

aerosol cans). (I actually tasted some once -- UGH!!!)



Dennis

PS: Us Spartans are always happy to see Michigan cramed, reamed, cobbed,

and screwed. Way to hook 'em horns!







 Ron Butters wrote:

 

  I think Dennis and Seth are absolutely right about the connection of

  COBBED with "CORNHOLE". However, it is the case that COBBED and REAMED

  are a little different in semantic range from SCREWED--COBBED and REAMED

  can (for me) mean simply 'defeated badly': Duke was recently

  REAMED/COBBED (cf. CREAMED) by EMU at basketball, but they were not SCREWED.

  

 

 I've always presumed creamed was short for cremated.

 

 Seth



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 10:56:05 -0500

From:  "Margaret G. Lee -English"  mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber milk



As a native of the western part of Virginia, I eat grits as a hot

cereal: with sugar, butter, and milk. However, I never had grits until I

attended college in the Hampton Roads, Virginia area. Growing up, my

family served hominy, from which grits are derived.



Margaret Lee



On Wed, 13 Mar 1996, David Robertson wrote:



    Does any of you Southerners know about the supposed 5 ways of

  serving grits? I've only been through North Carolina once, five years

  ago, so the restaurants there are my only experience of this. I seem to

  remember that grits could be ordered "plain", "covered", etc., and

  *"smathered"*. That last is a word I've never heard elsewhere in

  America. Any info out there?

 

    Thanks.

 

    Dave

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 11:39:36 -0500

From:  "Margaret G. Lee -English"  mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU 

Subject: Re: newspaper names



How about "The Daily Mess" for The Daily Press and "The Daily

Regress" for The Daily Progress (both Virginia newspapers)?

Margaret Lee



On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  (from the Bong bulletin)

 

  PEJORATIVES. Charlotte (N.C.) Observer: Charlotte Disturber,

  Charlotte Perturber, NotServer and Blurber, reports Thompson

  Allred (web480[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charweb.org). It also shares a nickname with

  the Portland Oregonian: The O or Big O.

    -- The Hawaii Tribune Herald's (and Hawaii Sumo News') Hunter

  Bishop (hunterb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interpac.net) advises that yes, they are

  sometimes the Hawaii Buffoon-Herald

    -- The Brooklyn (N.Y.) Home Reporter and Brooklyn Spectator?

  The Home Distorter and The Brooklyn Speculum or Brooklyn

  Speculator.

 

  the Pejorative Poster listing more than 120

  "street" newspaper names ($3) and the Chagrin Falls Commercial

  Scimitar Foreign Correspondent press card ($1.50) are available

  for quick delivery. Place orders at BONG Center, 2517 Rugby Road,

  Dayton, Ohio 45406. Prices include delivery in North America.

 

  Happy to be a catalyst for change or even large bills, BONG Chief

  Copyboy Charley Stough, Dayton Daily News, 45 S. Ludlow St., urges

  all BONGers to participate in the democratic process and save

  their receipts! E-mail copyboy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dma.org. Phone (513) 225-2445

  after 3 p.m. eastern. Fax 225-2489. See the BONG Bull website at

  http://www.au.com/bong/

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Mar 1996 12:03:53 -0500

From:  "Margaret G. Lee -English"  mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU 

Subject: Re: newspaper names



this is a test too....



On Sat, 16 Mar 1996, Margaret G. Lee -English wrote:



  How about "The Daily Mess" for The Daily Press and "The Daily

  Regress" for The Daily Progress (both Virginia newspapers)?

  Margaret Lee

 

  On Fri, 15 Mar 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

 

    (from the Bong bulletin)

   

    PEJORATIVES. Charlotte (N.C.) Observer: Charlotte Disturber,

    Charlotte Perturber, NotServer and Blurber, reports Thompson

    Allred (web480[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charweb.org). It also shares a nickname with

    the Portland Oregonian: The O or Big O.

      -- The Hawaii Tribune Herald's (and Hawaii Sumo News') Hunter

    Bishop (hunterb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interpac.net) advises that yes, they are

    sometimes the Hawaii Buffoon-Herald

      -- The Brooklyn (N.Y.) Home Reporter and Brooklyn Spectator?

    The Home Distorter and The Brooklyn Speculum or Brooklyn

    Speculator.

   

    the Pejorative Poster listing more than 120

    "street" newspaper names ($3) and the Chagrin Falls Commercial

    Scimitar Foreign Correspondent press card ($1.50) are available

    for quick delivery. Place orders at BONG Center, 2517 Rugby Road,

    Dayton, Ohio 45406. Prices include delivery in North America.

   

    Happy to be a catalyst for change or even large bills, BONG Chief

    Copyboy Charley Stough, Dayton Daily News, 45 S. Ludlow St., urges

    all BONGers to participate in the democratic process and save

    their receipts! E-mail copyboy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dma.org. Phone (513) 225-2445

    after 3 p.m. eastern. Fax 225-2489. See the BONG Bull website at

    http://www.au.com/bong/

   

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Mar 1996 to 16 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 387 lines in this issue.

[The last one was spam and has been deleted.]



Topics of the day:



 1. "smathered"

 2. 'going to' (2)

 3. "Resources on Black Slang"

 4. PADS 79 is being printed



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Mar 1996 00:32:52 -0500

From:  "Peter L. Patrick"  PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 

Subject: Re: "smathered"



More on "cobbed". Oddly this scholarly bunch hasn't come up with any

citations yet. Since I just picked up a very nice copy of Partridge's

D. of Slang & Unconventional English (1961) for a song, I looked it up

and found two unscatological meanings which fit. Well, LESS

scatological I suppose!

    1. To strike, esp. on the buttocks [there they are!] with

something flat (gen. a hand-saw, says Hotten): nautical (_1769).

Marryat in "The King's Own": 'Gentlemen, gentlemen, if you must cobb

Mrs. Skrimmage, for God's sake let it be over all', i.e. with no

clothes raised. Prob. echoic.

    2. Hence, to humbug, deceive; coll., C. 19-20, ob., perhaps

influenced by 'cod'.



That is one of Partridge's more unmotivated "hence"s, isn't it? I

suppose David's grandfather might have meant the second, rather like

"shorn" or "clipped" or "taken". But Dennis's comments seem to reflect

the first one.

    I believe the first is old enough to predate the association of

"cob" with "corn" ("corn" meaning "maize" is a New World usage, isn't

it? I think it meant oats, wheat, etc. in the British Isles-- and they

don't have cobs).

    One hopes so, for poor Mrs. Skrimmage's sake. (Of course, I

also doubt whether Partridge would TELL us plainly if the meaning was

the one everyone seems to have been assuming...)



    --peter patrick



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Mar 1996 01:01:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: 'going to'



Re Ron and Dennis' observations of language interference. I've always

thought it was the part of the brain that said "other language." That is,

any language other than one's native one.



When I was a freshman (freshwoman? freshperson? first year student) in

college, the nephew of friend's of my parents came to visit from Milan. I

spoke no Italian, he spoke no English. We both spoke some French and

Hebrew. I took him around to see NY and we chatted away in what must have

been one of the world's weirdest conglomorations of linguistic ability. It

got really nuts when we went to Radio City Music Hall and I tried to

translate "The Unsinkable Molly Brown" into a combination of Hebrew and

French.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:56:18 -0500

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes  HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: "Resources on Black Slang"



Allan Metcalf wrote:



 An inquiry has come my way, which I think I can best handle by reprinting,

 and asking you to reply directly to the inquirer; as well as to ADS-L, if

 your reply has general interest. - Allan Metcalf



One of the best sources is the web page "The Totally Unofficial Rap Page,"

at:



http://www.sci.kun.nl:80/thalia/rapdict/dict_en.html



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Mar 1996 10:33:20 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: 'going to'



In message Fri, 15 Mar 1996 22:28:00 -0500, RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com writes:



  I've been meaning to write and thank you for your kind correction to my

  French grammar, but I wanted to try to figure out first why I wrote what I

  wrote (i.e., "Je vais a' laver mes chats" and "Je vais a' me laver les

  mains," neither of which should have "a'"). Obviously, interference from

  English "I am going to wash my hands," etc., would lead the native

  speaker of English to assume that French also had the 'to' morpheme.



Ron:

 Thanks for your reaction to my correction. I doubt that there is an

exclusive explanation for the mistake. Etymological connection between the

infinitival "to" in your example and the preposition "to" in "I'm going to

church" might explain it. Your knowledge of Spanish might have contributed

to the mistake, regardless of the order in which you learn French and

Spanish. Over two decades ago I learned of "retroactive inhibition" (our

"interference") in a psychology class. But French itself may have caused the

problem if we consider constructions such as "Je viens de parler" 'I have

(just) spoken'/'I just spoke', in which "venir" retains its preposition

before the infinitive", whereas "aller" does not do so. I learn from experts

on second language acquisition that often all such factors contribute to

producing errors.

 I empathize with the frustration of learning a foreign language from

textbooks (partly at the mercy of other people's perceived generalizations

and sometimes omissions?). Practice in a setting where the language is

spoken as a vernacular or common lingua franca gives a more interesting

meaning to speaking a language "idiomatically", knowing what is said in

what particular context. I wish I could avoid the term "context" but it is

all right if you interpret it broadly to include structural and non-

structural context, I suppose.



Cheers,



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Mar 1996 15:46:34 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: PADS 79 is being printed



On the 7th of March, issue No. 79 of Publication of the American Dialect

Society was sent to the printer by the University of Alabama Press.



It is:

_Under Cover of Law: More on the Legality of Surreptitious Recordings_

by Thomas E. Murray with the assistance of Carmin D. Ross-Murray.



This is a sequel to their essay in PADS 76 (1992), updating the information

about laws on surreptitious recording, and answering questions raised in

response to that earlier essay.



The managing editor of the Alabama Press tells me the volume is scheduled for

shipping in May.



All current members of the American Dialect Society will get a copy of this,

which is a perquisite of membership in addition to _American Speech_ and the

newsletter. (By the way, the Winter 1995 issue of _American Speech_ is going

to members this month.)



If you don't belong to ADS but would like to get this perq, send me your

s-mail address and I'll send you a sample newsletter and other information.

Or you can just make a check for $30 ($15 student) to American Dialect

Society and mail it to me:

Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary

English Department

MacMurray College

Jacksonville, Illinois 62650



 AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Mar 1996 to 17 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 274 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. English Dialect Information Exchange (2)

 2. Resources on Black Slang (fwd)

 3. F*** NEH!

 4. Lakota possessives

 5. AS Index on the Web (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:48:12 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



Dear Dennis,



  See how things are screwed up?



I apologise.





  The proposed discussion list will discuss dialacts found within the

  'British Isles.' The following clarification does not answer whether or not

  this will be limited to

 

      a) dialects of the English language within the British Isles (not

  at all limited to 'English English,' by the way, as speakers of Irish

  English should be quick to note, although, I assume this would include

  'substratally' influenced varieties from other languages or varieties of

  English such as Pakistani English English, West Indian Scottish English,

  etc...)

 

  or will include

 

      b) Dialects of any language within the British Isles.



When Jon and I decided it would be a good idea to set up this list,

we intended it to be primarily based on "dialects of English within

the British Isle", such as Lancashire, Yorkshire, Wiltshire, Somerset

etcetc, but don't want to say that it excludes certain varieties of

English within Britain as we do not feel we have the right or

inclination to restrict

discussion, or the exchange of knowledge. If we did take it upon

ourselves to say who could and who could not subscibe to the list

according to the language/dialect they speak, we may be denying that

person the opportunity to learn and contribute, and denying others

the opportunty to learn from them. Anyone who has something

intersting to say about the dialectal varieties of English within

England , or wants to participate on just a passive level, is very

welcome to subscribe.



Charlotte



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 11:21:50 -0500

From:  "Margaret G. Lee -English"  mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU 

Subject: Resources on Black Slang (fwd)



To: ADS Discussion List Subscribers:

   Please see forwarded message below.

   Thanks, Margaret Lee



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 7 Mar 1996 07:32:33 -0500 (EST)

From: Margaret G. Lee -English  mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu 

To: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

Subject: Resources on Black Slang





I teach English at Hampton University, Hampton, Virginia. I am currently

researching information on black slang/black verbal expressions for my

dissertation topic on the borrowing of black verbal expressions by the

mainstream print media. I would appreciate your help in suggesting

resources that I may consult that would document the legitimacy of

certain black slang expressions, that is, would identify them as having

been created and used by African-Americans before passing into mainstream

use. Thank you for whatever assistance you can give me in this area.



Sincerely,

Margaret G. Lee, Assistant Professor of English

Hampton University

Hampton, VA 23668

Home Address: 18 Pirates Cove, Hampton, VA 23669

Phone: (804) 851-5773

E-Mail: mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 12:21:59 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: F*** NEH!



The letter came this morning. It says: "Thank you for responding to our

invitation to attend the 25th Annual Jeferson Lecture in the Humanities.

Due to the enormous response we've received, I regret to inform you that

tickets are no longer available." (There follow various symbols for

polite noises.)



Now, when I receive an invitation, I do not expect my acceptance to be

followed by "tickets are no longer available." What think you? And should

our hon. officer, Prof. Metcalf, be spending time distributing tickets

that do not exist???



Bethany



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 10:21:53 -0800

From:  David Robertson  net091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RISCY.SFCC.CTC.EDU 

Subject: Lakota possessives



   This is in regard to my recent comment about forms of possession in

Lakota. I haven't managed to corral my friend who's got a copy of Riggs'

grammar. However on page 39 of Father Buechel's dictionary, he

enumerates along with the "separate" possessives, i.e. adjectival forms,

the following _four_ (not three as I'd thought) grammatical categories of

possession affixes:



   1. Property [mita...]

   2. Body parts [ma...]

   3. Incorporeal parts [mi...]

   4. Relationships [mi...; ...ku; unki...pi; etc.]



   I hope this is of some help. Note that Buechel doesn't speak of

"inalienable" and "alienable" possession, so those of us interested in

that question will still need to research a bit in the language.



   Dave



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 14:20:54 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: AS Index on the Web



You can now get to the _American Speech_ index from the ADS web page

(http://www.msstate.edu/archives/ADS/). I'm probably going to change the

exact route soon, putting the files in gopher space instead of ftp space

and having the web link go there, but that change won't change anything

about what you click on to get them. It will simply make it easier to

see the list of files (and will make them available to gopherers).



Here's an introduction that's available with the files. Alan wrote the

first part of it, and I added the list of files and blurb at the end about

garbage characters:



INDEXES TO THE ADS JOURNAL _AMERICAN SPEECH_



 Thanks to former editor John Algeo, two electronic indexes to _American

Speech_ are now available.

 One is an author index to Volumes 1-60 (1926-1985). It is in the same

format as the author index printed in 50.3-4 (1975), but it extends 10 years

beyond. Furthermore, being electronic, it can be searched for words in

titles, thus making it a title index too.

 The other is a classified subject index to Volumes 44 (1969) - 56 (1981)

using the elaborate classification system described in NADS 14.3 (Sept 1982):

12-14. That description and the classification system are also in electronic

form.

 For indexes to more recent issues, see the comprehensive annual indexes

printed at the end of each volume.

 Omitted from the electronic indexes are entries for individual words cited

in "Among the New Words" and elsewhere, even though those words are cited in

the printed annual indexes. For a complete index to "Among the New Words"

through 1991, see Algeo's _Fifty Years Among the New Words_ (Cambridge UP,

1991). For an index to other words cited, see the _Words and Phrases Index_,

available at many libraries. Otherwise, go through _American Speech_ volume

by volume, looking through the printed annual indexes.

 Of course, if a word under discussion happens to be in the title of an

article, the electronic indexes will allow you to find that article by

searching for that word.

 The author index 1926-85 is in four separate files:

Author index #1, anon - Ayres, 14,000 words

Author index #2, Ayres - Harder, 22,000 words

Author index #3, Haugen - Nock, 22,000 words

Author index #4, Nock - Zwicky, 20,000 words



The subject index 1969-81 amounts to 4000 words.



There is also a 1000-word introduction to the subject index, dated August

1983 (about 1000 words), and a list of subject descriptors used with the

subject index (about 2100 words). These are substantially the same as the

reports printed in NADS 14.3 (Sept 1982): 12-14.



In a January 1996 letter conveying these files, Algeo wrote:



"This project began in pre-computer days on 4x6 slips. The 'Report' file

speaks of those slips and says that subjects had been entered on them. That

was only partly true. A lot of subject classification had been done, but much

of it was done by student research assistants and needed to be checked for

accuracy and appropriateness."

************************************************************************

filename        files size         description



authors1.txt      95,283           anon-Ayres

authors2.txt      138,287          Ayres-Harder

authors3.txt      134,674          Haugen-Nock

authors4.txt      128,644          Nock-Zwicky

contents        18,416          table of contents

index          22,976          index

report          5,632          description by J. Algeo

01-60         3k-16k each        volumes 1 - 60

************************************************************************

Although some of the files have picked up stray characters and other

problems in their movement through various computers to reach this

archive, all are readable. The ones with the most problems are

authors3.txt, authors4.txt, 01, 02, 06, 07, 14, 15, 19.



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



P.S. The zipped file is still available via ftp from ftp.msstatate.edu in

pub/archives/ADS/Files. The zipped version is of the files as they arrived

here -- before I pulled them all into Wordperfect and resaved them in ASCII

to get rid of some of the stray characters. But they'll be readable even

without that minor cleanup job.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 17:33:48 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Charlotte Thomas wrote:



  If we did take it upon

  ourselves to say who could and who could not subscibe to the list

  according to the language/dialect they speak, we may be denying that

  person the opportunity to learn and contribute, and denying others

  the opportunty to learn from them.



Is it Sheffield dialect to write "If we did . . . we may be denying . . ."

rather than "If we did . . . we might be denying . . ."? Or is this example

just a typo?



  "Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

  can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

  (P.Wright, 1974)



Anyway, thanks for the invitation--and for the inclusive nature of the

proposed discussion group!  



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 16:39:15 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: AS Index on the Web



Correction:



  (http://www.msstate.edu/archives/ADS/). I'm probably going to change the



It's http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/. Unix is case-sensitive.



  exact route soon, putting the files in gopher space instead of ftp space

  and having the web link go there, but that change won't change anything



They're now in gopher space -- reachable from the web just as before but

also reachable via gopher.msstate.edu. Let me know if you have any

problems with them. I kept being distracted by little things like wailing

tornado-warning sirens while I was trying to make all the gopher .cap files

(the files that shadow each real file in a gopher directory and indicate

things like where the file will show up in the menu).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Mar 1996 to 18 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 22 messages totalling 570 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Grits (was Re: Clabber milk)

 2. Thursday week (2)

 3. Asian

 4. English Dialect Information Exchange

 5. Red eye gravy

 6. AHD 2nd edition

 7. Textbook Question (4)

 8. may/might distinction (7)

 9. may/might distinction (or *non*distinction) (2)

 10. Bounced Mail

 11. Say what?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:05:45 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Grits (was Re: Clabber milk)



I'm just back after a week of Spring Break, and working my way through an

overdrawn computer account of 141 messages, mostly ADS-L, so pardon if this

has already been pointed out. Raven McDavid used to speak with relish of

having grits with red-eye gravy as the only true Southern way of serving it.

Just by coincidence I was looking the word up today to see if it was by

chance an Americanism, and found that although it is attested back to OE,

the specific reference to hominy grits (for which Southern "grits" is a

shortened form) is certainly a New World innovation.



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Mar 1996 22:16:10 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



I guess I qualify as further south than Don Lance, or perhaps more archaic

than he (though I always thought he was the more archaic), but I've always

used "Monday week", "Tuesday week", etc., and like Natalie, assumed that most

people readily understood it (and heard many of them say it).

    On the other hand, the phrase "a week Thursday" would have a totally

different meaning for me; I would use it in a sentence referring to a time

period which began in the past and would end on Thursday, as in "It will be

a week/month/year [come] Thursday," with [come] usually elided. And I can't

imagine that it is anything other than general usage to say "I saw him

Wednesday two weeks ago," or "It'll be two weeks ago Wednesday that I saw him."

If those are archaic maybe I should retire.



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:22:52 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian



I agree with Ron Butters that "PC" is a right-wing PC term, and strongly

avoid it myself. The term  Asian  gained currency in the U.S. about 20

years ago when (mainly East) Asians were searching for a common term of

reference beyond their national designations, and wanted to avoid the

Eurocentric colonial term  Oriental . The term  Asia  is an indigenous one

to the area, so it was embraced as the favored term.

    When I was living in Taiwan, the absurdity of "Oriental" or "Far East"

came home to me when I looked east toward the United States (!) and watched

the sun come up over the Pacific, and looked West and saw it set over mainland

China.

    For those who commented earlier, I believe that geographers often

include much of the Near East in "Southwest Asia". And after all, the area

of modern Turkey east of the Bosphorus has long been called "Asia Minor".



    Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:03:24 +0000

From:  Charlotte Thomas  EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHEFFIELD.AC.UK 

Subject: Re: English Dialect Information Exchange



Dear Ronald,







  On Mon, 18 Mar 1996, Charlotte Thomas wrote:

 

    If we did take it upon

    ourselves to say who could and who could not subscibe to the list

    according to the language/dialect they speak, we may be denying that

    person the opportunity to learn and contribute, and denying others

    the opportunty to learn from them.

 

  Is it Sheffield dialect to write "If we did . . . we may be denying . . ."

  rather than "If we did . . . we might be denying . . ."? Or is this example

  just a typo?



Although I'm doing my PhD in Sheffield, I'm not actually from here.

I've only been here since Sepember. I'm actually from Colne in

Lamncashire (Sheffield's in Yorkshire), but some features are

similar. Anyway, to answer your question ,my dialect would allow me

to use either "may" or "might" in this context, meaning the same

thing. I must admit, I hadn't even noticed that I'd written one or

the other!

Charlotte



##########################################################

Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk

CECTAL

Dept. of English Language and Linguistics

University of Sheffield

Sheffield

S10 2TN

UK



"Why does anyone believe he ought to speak better than he

can, and so in the end speak far worse than he might?"

(P.Wright, 1974)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 04:37:51 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Red eye gravy



But what is the origin of "red-eye gravy" and what does it consist of?



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com





 I'm just back after a week of Spring Break, and working my way through an

 overdrawn computer account of 141 messages, mostly ADS-L, so pardon if this

 has already been pointed out. Raven McDavid used to speak with relish of

 having grits with red-eye gravy as the only true Southern way of serving it.

 Just by coincidence I was looking the word up today to see if it was by

 chance an Americanism, and found that although it is attested back to OE,

 the specific reference to hominy grits (for which Southern "grits" is a

 shortened form) is certainly a New World innovation.

 

     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:52:18 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart  LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: AHD 2nd edition



I'm trying to track down the second edition of the American Heritage

Dictionary. I was told it has more extensive etymological information

than most desktop dictionaries. Is this true and is it still

available somewhere?



***********************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

Dept. of English (300 Park Hall)   Phone:  (706) 542-2260

University of Georgia        Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205        E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

***********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 07:29:39 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Textbook Question



It's that time of year again. I'm thinking about changing from Fromkin

and Rodman next fall for my Intro to Linguistics class to James Paul

Gee's _Intro to Human Language_. Have any of you ever used it?



The students who take the course vary widely in ability and interest.

Although it's a junior/senior/grad-level course here, most of the

students have no previous experience with linguistics courses (it is,

after all, an introductory course), making it seem more to me like a

freshman- or sophomore-level course. The Fromkin/Rodman book was at

the appropriate level for the audience. My reason for thinking about

changing is not so much dissatisfaction with that book as it is general

restlessness or whatever -- a simple desire to try something different.

(I usually teach the course just once every two years but will be teaching

it two years in a row this time.) I like what I've read in the Gee book,

but I've never been good at knowing whether a book will really work well

until after I've used it -- too late in the case of bad choices.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:19:02 -0400

From:  Paul Fallon  pfallon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S850.MWC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Textbook Question



I haven't used Gee's book but would like to take a look at it. Could you

please provide the citation so I can contact the publisher?



Thanks.



--Paul Fallon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:35:00 -0500

From:  Tom Beckner  TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Textbook Question



I haven't used Gee, but have considered it and have a copy on my shelf.

James Paul Gee_An Introduction to Human Language: Fundamental Concepts in

Linguistics_Prentice Hall, 1993 (unless there is a revised edition).



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:13:21 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: may/might distinction



Thanks for your comment on my question about the may/might distinction.

Of course, asking about whether or not your lack of a distinction was

"dialect" or "solecism" was a bit of a joke--the lack of a distinction

seems to be widespread among educated speakers in the English-speaking

world.



I have collected over the past twenty years numerous print

examples from well-educated people of sentences like,

"If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States." Despite

my years of sensitivity training as a linguist who knows that "barbaric"

is not an appropriate term to use to characterize linguistic change in

progress, and not withstanding my realization that all sorts of

supereducated folks make

no may/might distinction, such sentences still strike me as ludicrous and

solecistic.



I'm wondering if there is anyone else left on the planet (or at least on

this mailing list) who shares my linguistic prejudice--or even

understands the semantic difference between MAY and MIGHT in the example

given above.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:29:05 EST

From:  Terry Lynn Irons  t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU 

Subject: Re: Textbook Question



Natalie,



I have used the Gee textbook for an intro course. It is very heavy on

semantics at the beginning--using a simplified predicate language.

Phonology and syntax are okay as is the psycholinguistics chapter. The

discourse chapter is weak. My experience was that it didn't well for

beginning students--but I teach at a regional institution.



Terry Irons

 --

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 09:05:27 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Ronald Butters wrote:



  I have collected over the past twenty years numerous print

  examples from well-educated people of sentences like,

  "If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

  Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States." Despite

  my years of sensitivity training as a linguist who knows that "barbaric"

  is not an appropriate term to use to characterize linguistic change in

  progress, and not withstanding my realization that all sorts of

  supereducated folks make

  no may/might distinction, such sentences still strike me as ludicrous and

  solecistic.

 

  I'm wondering if there is anyone else left on the planet (or at least on

  this mailing list) who shares my linguistic prejudice--or even

  understands the semantic difference between MAY and MIGHT in the example

  given above.

 



YES, ME!!!



I've become aware of this phenomenon only in the last year or so. I heard

an instance just this morning on NPR, and although I, too, grit my teeth

and remind myself of the inevitability of language change and the already

well-advanced decay of both our modal verb system and the subjunctive

system in English . . . it still drives me CRAZY! And others to whom I've

pointed it out have expressed surprise and consternation, never having

noticed it themselves. To me, "may" and "might" have always been very

distinct and could never be used interchangeably in a conditional context

such as those you cite. (They would be interchangeable in a context such

as "You may/might want to read this book - it's interesting." But there

would still be a difference, perhaps in my degree of conviction in my own

suggestion.)



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:18:13 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller  millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



Ron: Count me in among those who still try to draw the distinction between

may/might; in fact, we still drill journalism students on it in either basic

reporting or copy editing classes. One of the examples we use, which I

thought you would want for your collection, is this front-page headline &

story from the Indianapolis Star:



        MEDICAL

        AID WAS

        THE KEY



        QUICK ATTENTION MAY

        HAVE SAVED DANNY (subhead)



    CICERO, Ind. -- Private graveside services were conducted at Carey

Cemetery today for Danny Joe Jenkins, the Hamilton Heights High School

sophomore who died a week ago in a teen-age drinkking party...



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:08:33 -0500

From:  "Virginia P. Clark"  vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNU.UVM.EDU 

Subject: may/might distinction (or *non*distinction)



    I strongly agree with Ronald Butters and Peter McGraw. Sentences

that have "may" where I expect "might" (can't say "where there should be

'might'" because I know better) actually make me "trip" in reading--I have

to go back to the beginning of the sentence to see what's happening. I have

been feeling guilty about my reaction--now I'm going to stop that.



Virginia Clark

University of Vermont



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:30:22 -0500

From:  "H Stephen Straight (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction (or *non*distinction)



I share Ron, Peter, and Virginia's reaction to may where I would say

might, but I stopped forcing the distinction on others after a

frustrating hour a couple of years ago trying to persuade a roomful of

native speakers that could/might/should/would are the past tense forms of

can/may/shall/will. How could they believe me when their own

grammaticality-judgment devices didn't sound the alarm over sentences

such as:



Yesterday at noon Kelly said, "Pat can go to the movies tonight", but I

don't understand why she said Pat can go to the movies last night.



I had never actually heard anyone _say_ such a thing, mind you, but I

figured it was just a matter of time before tense agreement would go the

way of number agreement.  Who needs 'em, anyway? :-(



        Best.     'Bye.      Steve

 H Stephen Straight, Dir, Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

 Nat'l For Lg Ctr, Jan-Jun 96 VOX: 202-667-8100 - FAX: 202-667-6907

  S-Mail: 1619 Mass Ave NW (at Scott Circle), Washington, DC 20036

  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"]



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:55:08 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

  Date:     Tue, 19 Mar 1996 11:59:26 -0500

  From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)"  LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu 

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACT.ORG

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 9130 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

 ------------------- Message in error (52 lines) --------------------------

  Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 10:59:52 CST

  From: robinson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]act.org

  Subject: Re: may/might distinction

 

  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

  Thanks for your comment on my question about the may/might distinction.

  Of course, asking about whether or not your lack of a distinction was

  "dialect" or "solecism" was a bit of a joke--the lack of a distinction

  seems to be widespread among educated speakers in the English-speaking

  world.

 

  I have collected over the past twenty years numerous print

  examples from well-educated people of sentences like,

  "If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

  Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States." Despite

  my years of sensitivity training as a linguist who knows that "barbaric"

  is not an appropriate term to use to characterize linguistic change in

  progress, and not withstanding my realization that all sorts of

  supereducated folks make

  no may/might distinction, such sentences still strike me as ludicrous and

  solecistic.

 

  I'm wondering if there is anyone else left on the planet (or at least on

  this mailing list) who shares my linguistic prejudice--or even

  understands the semantic difference between MAY and MIGHT in the example

  given above.

 

       Though I'm not a linguist, I share your view, which could

       hardly be considered a prejudice. The semantic

       distinction couldn't be clearer.

 

                       Pete Robinson

                       ACT

                       Iowa City



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 14:57:15 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



Ron,

    I "feel" the old "sequence of tenses" agreement, and occasionally

find myself doing a double-take, though not so visceral a reaction as yours,

apparently. There are things like regularized strong verbs that hit me

unconsciously, and then my conscious linguistic relativism asserts itself,

unless it is a formal student paper, in which case I get out my Fidditch red

pencil -- but that I consider a teaching/socializing responsibility. In the

may/might pair, there is also the fact that  might  has come to be expressive

of less probability than  may  which enters into the schema.

    --Rudy

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:25:01 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thursday week



I wasn't born yesterday, just way up north, which may account for my total

bewilderment at "Monday week" phrases. When I saw the original post, I

thought that there was some reference to Maundy Thursday in "Thursday

Week," given the time of the year. I was able to understand Rudy's

"I saw him Wednesday two weeks ago," but can only produce "I saw him

two weeks ago Wednesday." "Come Wednesday" is fine for the future only.



This is probably biologically determined by grits or maple syrup.



Bill King SLAT (wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 18:45:42 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



We have a guest over at the moment. The jury of three -- NYC area, upstate

NY area, Cleveland area -- all found the sentence

"If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States.

to be off (or blinky).

This was a good test case, I think, because the initial clause, which

also bugs me, is less likely to force the choice of "might" than the

preferable "hadn't had to run."

Might retains past tense meaning among those who do not eat grits.

I might not have predicted such a thing.

This is the ultimate ESL list, even for my own dialect.

Bill King SLAT (wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:50:20 -0500

From:  "H Stephen Straight (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Say what?



I would appreciate an interpretation of the following excerpt. The target

phrase that leaves me bewildered is "you don't steal from the Internet".

Is this Franglais, or what?

        Best.     'Bye.      Steve

 H Stephen Straight, Dir, Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

 Nat'l For Lg Ctr, Jan-Jun 96 VOX: 202-667-8100 - FAX: 202-667-6907

  S-Mail: 1619 Mass Ave NW (at Scott Circle), Washington, DC 20036

  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"]



---------- Forwarded message ----------

*****************************************************************

Edupage, 19 March 1996. Edupage, a summary of news items on information

technology, is provided three times each week as a service by Educom,

a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities

seeking to transform education through the use of information technology.

*****************************************************************

[lots of great stuff omitted -- subscription recommended! -- HSS]

FRENCH BOOK BANNED, THEN PIRATED

The book "Le Grand Secret," banned by a French judge on the grounds that it

violates the privacy of the family of the late French President Francois

Mitterand, has turned up on various Web sites in violation of copyright law.

One publishing executive says, "Just as we teach our children not to steal

toys, just as we teach our children not to plagiarize, we have to get across

the message that you don't steal from the Internet." However, French

government officials are less than enthusiastic about aggressively enforcing

copyright protection for a book that has been banned. (New York Times 18

Mar 96 A1)

[lots more great stuff and credits omitted -- subscribe as follows -- HSS]

***************************************************************

EDUPAGE is what you've just finished reading. To subscribe to Edupage: send

a message to: listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]educom.unc.edu and in the body of the message type:

subscribe edupage Ferde Grofe (assuming that your name is Ferde Grofe; if

it's not, substitute your own name). ... To cancel, send a message to:

listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]educom.unc.edu and in the body of the message type: unsubscribe

edupage.  (Subscription problems? Send mail to educom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]educom.unc.edu.)

[final stuff omitted]



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 21:56:44 -0500

From:  "H Stephen Straight (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)"  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, William King wrote:

  We have a guest over at the moment. The jury of three -- NYC area, upstate

  NY area, Cleveland area -- all found the sentence

  "If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

  Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States."

  to be off (or blinky).



Your "NYC area" person may/might/must be from a different subarea than my

students,/,/; but/but/0 most of the NYC speakers in my classes would -- I

believe -- find the above sentence completely acceptable. Sorry. :-(



 H Stephen Straight, Dir, Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

 Nat'l For Lg Ctr, Jan-Jun 96 VOX: 202-667-8100 - FAX: 202-667-6907

  S-Mail: 1619 Mass Ave NW (at Scott Circle), Washington, DC 20036

  sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu  ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"]



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 22:31:34 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



I've used minimal pairs like

 (1) He {might/could} have won but he didn't.

 (2) #He may have won but he didn't.

 (3) It was possible for him to win but he didn't.

 (4) #It's possible that he won but he didn't.

for many years in my semantics and pragmatics classes to illustrate the

difference between logical and epistemic possibility. This distinction, which

I talked about in my (1972) thesis, borrowing from a Lauri Karttunen paper of

1971 and work by philosophers like Saul Kripke and Ian Hacking, has to do with

which sorts of possible worlds you look at when you try to figure out the

truth conditions of a sentence. (1) and (3) entail something like 'There's a

possible world consistent with the physical (etc.) facts of the actual world in

which he won', i.e. if certain contingent facts had worked out differently, he

would have won. (2) and (4) involve not logical (metaphysical) possibility

but epistemic possibility, i.e. that there's a possible world consistent with

what I know in which he won. But in saying he DIDN'T win, I'm saying there's

no world consistent with what I know in which he won.

   Well, anyway, the punch line (as nobody who read this far will be

startled to learn) is that some time ago--maybe in the mid-1980's--I began

realizing that more and more of my students were not sharing my judgments. I

think they DID get the distinction; they just didn't preserve the mapping

between the semantics and the modal auxiliaries. I share everyone's frustra-

tion over the loss, especially since it makes the distinction harder to

demonstrate. But then I think it's an occupational disease of linguists to

regret all neutralizations, especially those wiping out distinctions we make

ourselves. (I do, however, recognize that not everyone shares my grief

concerning those careless dialects in which Mary, marry, and merry are not

distinguished.)





Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Mar 1996 to 19 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 20 messages totalling 456 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. AHD 2nd edition (7)

 2. May/Might : epistemics and tense

 3. Red eye gravy (2)

 4. may/might distinction (3)

 5. Red eye gravy -Reply

 6. see the elephant (2)

 7. Say what?

 8. your mail

 9. Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy - (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:45:57 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



 I'm trying to track down the second edition of the American Heritage

 Dictionary. I was told it has more extensive etymological information

 than most desktop dictionaries. Is this true and is it still

 available somewhere?

 

I think you must have heard that about the 1st. I think I still have two

copies. I'll have to check some boxes I brought home from the office. If

I have two, I'll send you one. I haven't compared the 1st and 3rd, but I'd

expect the 3rd to have more than the 1st and to have corrected some errors.

Even so, I still like the 1st. The 2nd removed the appendix of

Indo-European roots, and linguists howled, though freshman comp teachers

didn't care. So in 1985 Houghton Mifflin put out a paperback "The American

Heritage Dictionary of Indo-European Roots," which sort of made up for

their mistake. Unfortunately that little book is out of print and out of

stock. I met an (East) Indian scholar who had a use for the book about

five years ago and asked our Houghton book rep if he could get me a copy.

He told me they were totally out of stock, but he managed to talk someone

out of a copy from his office. I did find out that this 1985 book had some

revisions that reflected Calvert Watkins' later research, and perhaps

responses to emendations sent in by users of AHS1. Do you have AHD3? If I

can, I'll send you the AHS1, because I think language scholars should have

copies of different editions of the major dictionaries; I now wish I'd

systematically collected dictionaries over the years. Houghton also set a

new trend with a 1970s printing of AHD1. Previously, dictionary publishers

used some shade of blue to make their product look a little like G&C

Merriam's real Webster's, but AHD came out in red. Several other

companies, including Merriam, started using red too. Dictionaries are

historical documents, you know, not just guides to usage and

spelling/pronunciation.



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:47:05 +1608

From:  "Donald M. Lance"  engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



I eeoopsed again. Thought I was responding to a private msg from Sonja

Lanehart. Oh well, ...



Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri

engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:17:59 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: May/Might : epistemics and tense



Larry,

    Many thanks for the examples and clarification. A complicating issue

I'd like to see your comments on is that your (1) and (3) both contain a

past tense in the main clause, while (2) and (4) are present tense. There is

thus a tense (time?) conflict which seems also needing to be taken into

account.

    (1) He might have won but he didn't.

    (2) #He may have won but he didn't.

    (3) It was possible for him to win but he didn't.

    (4) #It is possible that he won but he didn't.



Note the differences in readings of  might  in:



    (5) He might have won, but just hasn't heard yet.

    (6) He might have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.

    (7) He may have won, but just hasn't heard yet.

    (8) *He may have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.



Thanks for raising the discussion above the anecdotal level, and giving us

some principled reasons to think about.

    Rudy

--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:19:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



At 7:52 AM 3/19/96, Sonja Lanehart wrote:

 I'm trying to track down the second edition of the American Heritage

 Dictionary. I was told it has more extensive etymological information

 than most desktop dictionaries. Is this true and is it still

 available somewhere?



 Yes it's true and I still seen it in stores occasionally. Try used

bookstores or write to Houghton Mifflin in Boston.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Mar 1996 23:19:00 PST

From:  Kim & Rima McKinzey  rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 

Subject: Re: Red eye gravy



At 4:37 AM 3/19/96, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

 But what is the origin of "red-eye gravy" and what does it consist of?

 

When we lived in NC I ran into that too. I found out that one of the main

distinguishing ingredients was coffee.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:39:23 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart  LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



Hi Don. I just got a message from the student who told me about the

dictionary. He said its the edition in which Calvert Watkins wrote an

etymological key in the back of the dictionary. I wasn't aware of any

of this until he told me about it. It sounded very useful so now I'm

trying to track one down. It sounds like the paperback you mentioned

would have been nice. It's a shame that good books go out of print.

I hope you find 2 copies. Thanks Don.     --Sonja



***********************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

Dept. of English (300 Park Hall)   Phone:  (706) 542-2260

University of Georgia        Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205        E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

***********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:49:54 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart  LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



Thanks for the responses I've gotten so far about the AHD. I think my

first post was misleading because I used the term 'desktop'. I wasn't

looking for an electronic AHD, but I understand how that happened. The

one I am looking for is the edition that Calvert Watkins did the

etymological key in the back of the dictionary.

  With the information I've gotten so far, it seems it is still

possible to find one somewhere.

  BTW, I'm sorry for sharing personal mail. I didn't pay attention to

the header on the message Don Lance sent.



***********************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

Dept. of English (300 Park Hall)   Phone:  (706) 542-2260

University of Georgia        Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205        E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

***********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:36:23 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne"  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



 I've used minimal pairs like

  (1) He {might/could} have won but he didn't.

  (2) #He may have won but he didn't.

  (3) It was possible for him to win but he didn't.

  (4) #It's possible that he won but he didn't.

 for many years in my semantics and pragmatics classes to illustrate the

 difference between logical and epistemic possibility.

Larry, do you mean that students are losing the difference between

1 and 2, but still preserve the difference between 3 and 4?



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Department of Linguistics

Morrill Hall, Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:25:47 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King"  jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



 Of course, asking about whether or not your lack of a distinction was

 "dialect" or "solecism" was a bit of a joke--the lack of a distinction

 seems to be widespread among educated speakers in the English-speaking

 world.

 

 I have collected over the past twenty years numerous print

 examples from well-educated people of sentences like,

 "If he didn't have to run against Anderson as well as Nixon, Hubert

 Humphrey may have been elected president of the United States."



No this doesn't sound quite right. Not at all. The third candidate in

that race was Wallace, not Anderson.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 09:18:20 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



I was going to sit out the may/might thing, but should note that

I'm from NYC (central Queens, to be specific, with one parent

from the Bronx and one from Germany) and find the "may" in that

sentence about Humphrey disturbing.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:46:59 -0600

From:  Elizabeth Gregory  WPODOM1.AGCOM.EGREGORY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU 

Subject: Red eye gravy -Reply



Here's my understanding of red-eye gravy (which I really don't care

for--I prefer grits with butter and salt):



First, you fry a slice of ham or some bacon in a big skillet.



When it's done, you take the meat out of the skillet, and add water

(or water and coffee) to the drippings.



Continue cooking and stirring until it gets kind of gravy-like, and

then pour it over your grits.



If you make a little well in the middle of the grits to hold the

gravy, it will look like a red eye--perhaps not very appetizing at

breakfast, but these foods can be served at any time of day in my

area of Alabama.



Elizabeth Gregory



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 12:38:43 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts  robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU 

Subject: see the elephant



   Sorry to chime in so late on this topic and my apologies if someone

   has already noted that an article on the phrase "to see the elephant"

   appeared in The Pacific Historian, volume 12, no. 1, Winter 1968,

   pages 23-29. One of the key sources in the article is Barrere and

   Leland, A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon and Cant.



   Randy Roberts

   U of Missouri

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:45:41 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: Re: Red eye gravy



The red-eye gravy my mother made in N.C. 30-40 years ago

was made in the skillet with water and what remained after

frying country ham. Put on the table in a small container

and eaten after it was poured over a homemade baking-soda

biscuit. I had always assumed "red-eye" because the gravy

was reddish and full of little round spots of grease.





Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 13:53:48 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower  jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM 

Subject: Re: see the elephant



 

    Sorry to chime in so late on this topic and my apologies if someone

    has already noted that an article on the phrase "to see the elephant"

    appeared in The Pacific Historian, volume 12, no. 1, Winter 1968,

    pages 23-29. One of the key sources in the article is Barrere and

    Leland, A Dictionary of Slang, Jargon and Cant.



I hadn't even been aware that there had been a discussion of

this topic, but there is a very extensive entry on this phrase

in the RH Historical Dict. of American Slang s.v. elephant.



An interesting and much earlier parallel which I only encountered

recently is _see the lions,_ in OED2 from 1590.



Jesse Sheidlower

 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:21:40 PST

From:  Joseph Jones  jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



Further to the recent postings on etymology and the American Heritage

Dictionary. The first ed. had the appended list of Indo-European

roots. The second ed. did not, and the list was published separately,

both in paper and hardcover. To indicate the complexity of the

interrelationship, I quote from the separate dictionary of

Indo-European roots (xxvii):



"Every English word in the index is also a main entry in The American

Heritage Dictionary: Second College Edition, but not every entry in

The American Heritage Dictionary that is of Indo-European ancestry is

included in the Dictionary of Indo-European Roots. ... The

cross-references between etymologies in The American Heritage

Dictionary do, however, enable a user of that Dictionary to find the

Indo-European root of any English word of Indo-European derivation."



The third ed. again has the appended list of Indo-European roots.

Be advised that there are substantial differences between this list

and the one associated with the second ed. These differences are not

explained, nor are they readily categorized by inspection. This third

ed. seems to be currently available for purchase:



TITLE:    The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language

EDITION:   3

SOURCE:   Boston : Houghton Mifflin Company, Aug. 1992

STATUS:   Active Record

ISBN:    0-395-44895-6 Trade Cloth

PRICE:    USD 45.00



If the interest is etymology, apart from a need for a general

dictionary, I would recommend:



TITLE:    Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology

NAMES:    Barnhart, Robert K.

SOURCE:   Bronx : H. W. Wilson, 1988

STATUS:   Active Record

ISBN:    0-8242-0745-9 Trade Cloth

PRICE:    USD 64.00 Retail





Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:03:34 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Say what?



"steal from the internet" = 'steal via the internet"?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 15:14:47 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



My memory is that AHD published a separate volumn of the IndoEuropean

roots stuff when they published the 3rd edition.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:16:18 -0500

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge"  ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU 

Subject: Re: your mail



gleep- my brain is melting

bleh, blech, yuck(and similar derivatives)-that's disgusting

yum- delicious

humph- what nonsense

pshaw- ditto

grunt- grunt

jeet?- You eat yet?



I'm sure there's many others.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:54:52 -0600

From:  Samuel Jones  smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy -



Mr. Joseph Jones' statement is almost exactly what I experienced

with red-eye gravy in Oklahoma, back in the 1930's. Fried country

ham first, them some water added to the meat-grease residue, and,

by golly!, red-eye gravy for those big baking-powder biscuits.

I'm in agreement with his recollection about the gravy's reddish

hue and the little reddish round spots of grease surrounded by water.

It was larrupin' good!



smjones



______________________________________________________________________________

 The red-eye gravy my mother made in N.C. 30-40 years ago

 was made in the skillet with water and what remained after

 frying country ham. Put on the table in a small container

 and eaten after it was poured over a homemade baking-soda

 biscuit. I had always assumed "red-eye" because the gravy

 was reddish and full of little round spots of grease.

 

 

 Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

 University of British Columbia Library



____________________________________________________________________________

DR. SAMUEL M. JONES          INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu

5434 Humanities Building          FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW)

455 North Park Street

__________________________________________

University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message)

Madison, WI 53706-1483          * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -

                        * VOICE MAIL--Lv message)



____________________________________________________________________________

"Pen-y-Bryn"          TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home)

122 Shepard Terrace             608 + 233-4748 (Home)

Madison, WI 53705-3614

____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:11:12 -0500

From:  William Smith  wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINDSPRING.COM 

Subject: Re: Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy -



At 04:54 PM 3/20/96 -0600, you wrote:

 Mr. Joseph Jones' statement is almost exactly what I experienced

 with red-eye gravy in Oklahoma, back in the 1930's. Fried country

 ham first, them some water added to the meat-grease residue, and,

 by golly!, red-eye gravy for those big baking-powder biscuits.

 I'm in agreement with his recollection about the gravy's reddish

 hue and the little reddish round spots of grease surrounded by water.

 It was larrupin' good!

 

 smjones

 

 ______________________________________________________________________________

  The red-eye gravy my mother made in N.C. 30-40 years ago

  was made in the skillet with water and what remained after

  frying country ham. Put on the table in a small container

  and eaten after it was poured over a homemade baking-soda

  biscuit. I had always assumed "red-eye" because the gravy

  was reddish and full of little round spots of grease.

  

  

  Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

  University of British Columbia Library

 

 ____________________________________________________________________________

 I always make red-eye gravy with left-over coffee rather than water. That

might contribute to the 'red eye.'



Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Mar 1996 to 20 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy - (2)

 2. AHD 2nd edition

 3. your mail (3)

 4. Cobbler Recipe??? (2)

 5. Clabber ad infinitum

 6. May/Might : epistemics and tense

 7. may/might example from today's NY Times (2)

 8. may/might distinction



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Mar 1996 22:07:32 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King"  jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy -



  Mr. Joseph Jones' statement is almost exactly what I experienced

  with red-eye gravy in Oklahoma, back in the 1930's. Fried country

  ham first, them some water added to the meat-grease residue, and,

  by golly!, red-eye gravy for those big baking-powder biscuits.



  I always make red-eye gravy with left-over coffee rather than water.



The red-eye gravy that my mother made in Oklahoma in the 1960's and

70's was as described, with simply water (and perhaps a touch of

flour?) in the residue of a ham steak. I was surprised (or is it

astonished) some years later to find in "standard" Southern cookbooks

(the collections of the ladies' sewing circle of the Maranatha Baptist

Church and such) that a key ingredient was coffee. That didn't fit with

my experience. In recent years, on those rare occasions when I found

myself with a hankering for same, I've made it both Mom's way, with

water, and the official way, with coffee. And the fact is, it's hard to

tell much difference.



This is hardly a discussion of linguistics or American dialects, I

fear, so I apologize.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 00:23:53 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: AHD 2nd edition



For you-all's interest, the AHD-III is now available on CD-ROM, with even

a talking version, if you have multimedia (a great idea for ESL users). I

have it, but haven't gotten around to setting it up, so don't know whether

the I-E roots are included or not.



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:00:27 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Oklahoma Red-Eye Gravy -



I'm usually the one to grouse when the discussion gets trivialized over

which restaurant makes the best whatever, but when a regionally distinctive

term, especially one hallowed by Raven McDavid's gastronomic preferences,

varies as to its referential content, this is the stuff of regional atlas

work and lexicography. Another thread could be started over the precise

reference of  cobbler , since last year my mother misplaced her grandmother's

recipe for cobbler, and after looking in vain through all of her cookbooks

at "cobbler" recipes, none of which resembled the original, I consulted two

of my fellow Texan faculty members, each of whom described yet totally

different objects. W"orter und Sachen studies have a long an honorable history

in our profession.



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 07:48:05 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston"  preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 

Subject: Re: your mail



Since I use 'jeetchet' in my beginning classes as an example of allegro

speech processes and specifically relate it to 'did you eat yet,' I am

surprised to find it on a list of 'non-words,' particularly since the

'jeet' part requires, at least for me, an 'underlying' 'did.'

I will avoid extensive discussion of the more philsophical question about

the word status of some of the other items on this list, but I think one

would like to distinguish several levels here, at least, for example:



1) Pseudo-imitatives which have clearly have the status 'word' (e.g.,.

cock-a-doodle-doo' and 'oink' (which no self-respecting rooseter or pig,

respectively, would ever say).

2) A middle category of items which appear to be 'conventionalizing,'

derived from 'sounds' but not yet fully lexicalized. Judgments here are

difficult since they may be further along in the process for some than for

others. For me, for example, 'blech' is such an item (while the similar

'yuck' belongs to category one.

3) 'Semanticized' noises; i.e., noises whose ',meanings' are clear but seem

to lack (or resist) lexicalization. (E.g., the 'mmmmmmmm' which means

'tasty,' or, to take an example of the same semantic terriory which surely

exists in 2) (or perhaps 1 for some) above, 'yum.'



Morphological tests help me a bit with these. For example, I can attach

bound morphemes (plural, past tense, etc...) to category one freely (He

oinked yeasterday; He let out three loud oinks). I have a lot of trouble

doing this to category 2 (*He bleched yesterday, as opposed to 'He went

'blech' yesterday.') The last (*He 'mmmmmmmed' yesterday) is really bad for

me. (This is what helps me clear up 'yum.' I don't like 'he yummed'

yesterday, but it's not as horrible as 'he mmmmmmmed' yesterday, so I would

put 'yum' in 2) and 'mmmmm' in 3).



When I say 'I don't like these,' of course, I do not refer at all to the

possibility of 'pseudolexicalizing' them (like any stretch of noise) in

'performance' speech.



GGGGGmmmmppph. (The noise a real pig makes)



Dennis





 gleep- my brain is melting

 bleh, blech, yuck(and similar derivatives)-that's disgusting

 yum- delicious

 humph- what nonsense

 pshaw- ditto

 grunt- grunt

 jeet?- You eat yet?

 

 I'm sure there's many others.



Dennis R. Preston

Department of Linguistics and Languages

Michigan State University

East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu

Office: (517)432-1235

Fax: (517)432-2736



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:44:39 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Cobbler Recipe???



On Thu, 21 Mar 1996, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Another thread could be started over the precise

  reference of  cobbler , since last year my mother misplaced her grandmother's

  recipe for cobbler, and after looking in vain through all of her cookbooks

  at "cobbler" recipes, none of which resembled the original, I consulted two

  of my fellow Texan faculty members, each of whom described yet totally

  different objects. W"orter und Sachen studies have a long an honorable history

  in our profession.

 

The tradition in my family is that if there is a recipe, something

actually written down on paper and followed, it cannot possibly be a

COBBLER. A cobbler is what Granny made out of fresh berries, flour, sugar,

water, butter (freshly-churned), and ? (baking soda? baking powder?) by

simply going into the kitchen and throwing bunches of those things together.

Unfortunately, the results she achieved cannot be duplicated by anyone

now living.



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://ljp.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 11:16:23 EST

From:  Steven Heffner  74754.517[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Re: your mail



  (This is what helps me clear up 'yum.' I don't like 'he yummed'

yesterday, but it's not as horrible as 'he mmmmmmmed' yesterday, so I would

put 'yum' in 2) and 'mmmmm' in 3).  



I like your topology, but I wonder about "yum." "Yummed" doesn't work because

"yum" isn't a verb. How about "yummy" and "yummily"?





Steven



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:37:16 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.CORP.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: your mail



 yummily



Hey, I like it. Already my mind is churning away, coming up with great

places to use it: "And they lived yummily ever after," and so on.



--Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 09:59:43 -0800

From:  Sylvia Swift  madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: Clabber ad infinitum



    Clabbered milk was supposed to help make extra good biscuits. Further,

    there was a brand of baking powder called "Clabber Girl Baking Powder,"



a long time ago in home ec, they told us that to get stuff to

rise, you either use the combo regular milk plus baking soda or clabbered

milk plus baking powder (i've since seen recipes that violate this

rule). i always thought that the trade name played on this natural pairing.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 10:35:04 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: May/Might : epistemics and tense



So far everyone seems to be agreeing with my discomfort over the

disappearance of the may/might distinction, but, with respect, everybody

also seems to be missing the point.



I see no TENSE distinction between "may" and "might" in any of the

examples I've seen during this discussion. In both "may have won" and

"might have won," the past element is in the "have+past participle"

construction, not in the modal. The two forms of the modal differ in

mood, not tense, with "may" the indicative and "might" the subjunctive.



In the sentence



(6) He might have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.



"Might" indicates that having won (in the past) is (at the present or any

time) not possible, because it would only have been the case if the

condition had been met, but because the condition itself is expressed in

the subjunctive, we know that it is contrary to fact (i.e., Clinton

in fact did run against him), thus ruling out the possibility of the

subject having won.



If we change the problematic utterance



(8) *He may have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.



to the unproblematic (if unlikely) one



(9) He may have won, if Clinton hasn't run against him.



then "may" indicates that the situation of having won is possible, subject

only to the condition being satisfied. And the fact that the condition

is expressed in the indicative tells us that it may in fact be satisfied

- we just don't happen to know whether Clinton has run or not.



For speakers who don't make the may/might distinction, #8 above is

acceptable. What bothers me about utterances like this is that for me the

speaker is saying precisely the opposite of what he or she means.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



 On Tue, 19 Mar 1996, Rudy Troike wrote:



  Larry,

      Many thanks for the examples and clarification. A complicating issue

  I'd like to see your comments on is that your (1) and (3) both contain a

  past tense in the main clause, while (2) and (4) are present tense. There is

  thus a tense (time?) conflict which seems also needing to be taken into

  account.

      (1) He might have won but he didn't.

      (2) #He may have won but he didn't.

      (3) It was possible for him to win but he didn't.

      (4) #It is possible that he won but he didn't.

 

  Note the differences in readings of  might  in:

 

      (5) He might have won, but just hasn't heard yet.

      (6) He might have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.

      (7) He may have won, but just hasn't heard yet.

      (8) *He may have won, if Clinton hadn't run against him.

 

  Thanks for raising the discussion above the anecdotal level, and giving us

  some principled reasons to think about.

      Rudy

  --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:20:57 EST

From:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Subject: may/might example from today's NY Times



I meant to include comments:



How would you have understood

    "He might well have finished higher, but his leg swung wide" ??



OR



    "He could have finished higher, but his leg swung wide" ??



OR   "He could have finished higher, had his leg not swung wide" -- although

that is certainly not sports writing.



    "He would have finished higher, but his leg swung wide" ??



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 12:23:37 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Cobbler Recipe???



Re Bethany's unrecoverable "recipe" (maybe that's where  cobbler  comes from,

something cobbled together on the spot): That's the way MY great-grandmother

did it, with a wood-burning oven, and why my great-aunt was asked my my

mother to watch her and write down what she did. I was too young to rememberr

what the originals tasted like, but the recorded directions produce an

excellent and, in my experience, unique result.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 14:05:14 EST

From:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Subject: may/might example from today's NY Times



Dateline March 20

Sec. B, page 7.3



    Rudy Galindo of San Jose, Calif., the United States champion,

    gave an elegant, balletic performance to land in fourth place.

    He may have finished higher, but his leg swung wide after a triple

    axel, and he recovered only for a double-toe jump in combination

    instead of the planned triple-toe.

    Glaindo, however, can still win the world championship if he wins

    Thursday's long program and Kulik finishes third or lower.





beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Mar 1996 20:07:51 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might distinction



H. Stephen Straight wrote, regarding the may/might distinction,

    Your "NYC area" person may/might/must be from a different subarea

than my students, /,/; but/but/) most of the NYC speakers in my classes

would -- I believe -- find the above sentence completely acceptable..."

    The "NYC area" is Brooklyn, Yonkers, the Bronx, up through freshman

year of h.s. Believe me, my wife lived in NY, then moved to the wilds of

... Valhalla. The sentence wasn't an asterisk to any of us, but it

certainly sounded better the other way.

    Excuuuuuse me if the "NYC area" does not fit your geographical

requirements. I would also assume that your students are not in the

same "age group" as the people in "question."

Bill King SLAT Univ. of Arizona wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Mar 1996 to 21 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 416 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Asian (2)

 2. Pseudo-Imitatives / "Conventionalized" Exclamations /     &

   "Semanticized" Utterances or Noises

 3. may/might (2)

 4. May-might (2)

 5. Copyright (2)

 6. gapers' block (6)

 7. Asia and tomatoes



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:08:10 -0400

From:  "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783"  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian



Here's an interesting tangent to the orientalist/asian issue: where do you place

the western border of Asia? While in Israel a few years back I asked people

what continent I was on and was mostly answered with The Middle East. . . when

I explained I wanted an answer like Europe, Asia, Africa, I found a great

reluctance to say "Asia" which I thought obvious. For my way of thinking, the

Euro-Asian frontier in the north is the Ural Mts; Russia's "near abroad" is

Asian, as is Turkey. Africa begins with the Suez Canal.



There's a political dimension to this issue (of course!) since Israelis are

accused of being "really European colonials" in an Arab Middle East despite

continuous inhabitance in the region since Moses looked down over the Jordan

from the east bank. Turkey is a member of the European Union. Australia was

recently rebuffed when it tried to assert its "asianness" at a regional

conference (ASEAN). What are the boundaries of Asia?

________________________________________________________________________

    David Bergdahl tel: (614) 593-2783   fax: (614) 593-2818

            Bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:02:23 -0600

From:  Samuel Jones  smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pseudo-Imitatives / "Conventionalized" Exclamations /     &

     "Semanticized" Utterances or Noises



 From Dennis Preston:



  "Since I use 'jeetchet' in my beginning classes as an example of allegro

 speech processes and specifically relate it to 'did you eat yet,' I am

 surprised to find it on a list of 'non-words,' particularly since the

 'jeet' part requires, at least for me, an 'underlying' 'did.'

 I will avoid extensive discussion of the more philsophical question about

 the word status of some of the other items on this list, but I think one

 would like to distinguish several levels . . ."



 1) Pseudoimitatives



 2) A middle category: items which appear to be 'conventionalizing'

  . . . sounds

 3) 'Semanticized' noises"



________________________________________________________________________________



Thank you!!



I found his posting both informative and fun, and it prompts me to

ask about "harrumph," which HAS made it into some dictionaries. I

may be in error, but I seem to remember a cartoon character, called

Major Hoople, who frequently uttered/exclaimed "Harrumph!" This was

a strip from the late 1920's(?) and through the 1930's(?). I recall

my father often saying, "At the meeting with the county agent, 'Old

Mr. - - - - - - ' "harrrummphed" his way through the evening." And we

all knew (or THOUGHT we knew?) exactly what my father meant.



Ergo, does "harrumph" fall into the category of "humph"? And, can also

be fixed in "time" with a past tense? 'Old Mr. - - - - - - ' was also

referred to as an "old harrumpher," as well as a "harrumphy old man."

How does this fit?



By the way, I remember our Oklahoma boars (no pun intended!) as

beginning THEIR noises with a dark, muffled, deep-throated retroflex-r

sound rather than



     "GGGGGmmmmppph. (The noise a real pig makes)"



Perhaps it was only a bit of gas?



smjones









____________________________________________________________________________

DR. SAMUEL M. JONES          INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu

Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu

5434 Humanities Building          FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW)

455 North Park Street

__________________________________________

University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message)

Madison, WI 53706-1483          * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -

                        * VOICE MAIL--Lv message)



____________________________________________________________________________

"Pen-y-Bryn"          TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home)

122 Shepard Terrace             608 + 233-4748 (Home)

Madison, WI 53705-3614

____________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 09:17:00 -0700

From:  Kat Rose  Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: may/might



Peter McGraw: Do you mean...?



   He may be waiting for us, if his plane has arrived on time. [We don't

know whether he's waiting.]



   He might be waiting for us, if his plane had arrived on time. [But it

wasn't, so we know he's not.]



[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- ---

Kat Rose  Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:13:07 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Asian



I'm not sure Turkish membership in the European Union is significant

geographically--both Turkey and Greece are members of NATO, and

nobody claims that either country has an Atlantic coast. But any

definition of Asia or Europe (other than giving in, calling it

all Eurasia, and drawing the boundary of Africa at the Suez canal)

is going to be subjective and arguable. It's hard enough getting

agreement on what counts as North America (is the boundary at the

Panama Canal, or at the southern border of Mexico? And what

about Greenland).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:18:17 -0500

From:  "Dale F.Coye"  CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: May-might



I'm finding some of these examples too forced to judge. Taking a look at

Webster's Usage Dict. and Webster's Third I find helps clear things up for

me. By the way, I think we're talking just about possibility, aren't we?



Next, I would say in my speech, that in a condition contrary to fact

statement (with if clause) MIGHT must be used and not MAY.



10. He might have won if he'd tried harder



11. *He may have won if he'd tried harder.



But with no additional clause both may and might are interchangeable in

their ability to express possibility, with, as W3 notes, might perhaps

expressing somewhat less possibility



12. Did he win?   a. He may have.

              b. He might have



In other words- it's possible- I just don't know.



13. You may be right

14. You might be right



In other words, I'm not sure, or I'm agreeing with you politely.



Curiously, I find an exact reversal of what we'd expect in the past, where I

find MAY the only choice in this sentence...



15. Someone may have lived there years ago (It's possible, but I don't know)

*Someone might have lived there years ago



...because of the interference I think I'm getting from MIGHT clauses with

IF.



16. He might have lived there happily, if she hadn't dragged him overseas.



WDEU says of the confusion, that MAY is more common in Brit. Eng. and gives

this example as ambiguous, which I find clear



17. At first it was believed that the boy may have survived in a pocket of

air, but...(he had already drowned).



WDEU says we are led to believe the boy lived. But doesn't the AT FIRST take

care of that?



But-clauses are more difficult for me. Paraphrasing Beth's NY Times article:



18. He may finish higher than her, but he did make that mistake (present

possibility)

19. He might finish higher than her, but he did make that mistake (equal to

18)

20. He may have finished higher than her, but he did make that mistake

  (It's true he finished high, but he shouldn't get too cocky cause he

goofed badly at one point) Here we're out of the realm of possiblity. This

is the way the NYT phrased it but they meant to convey the meaning in 21.

21. He might have finished higher than her, but he made that mistake



Sentence 21 is in the past, and I'd be more likely to say...



22. He could have finished higher than her, if he hadn't made that mistake



Dale Coye

The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching

Princeton, NJ.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 10:44:30 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw  pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 

Subject: Re: may/might



Yes.



Peter





On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Kat Rose wrote:



  Peter McGraw: Do you mean...?

 

    He may be waiting for us, if his plane has arrived on time. [We don't

  know whether he's waiting.]

 

    He might be waiting for us, if his plane had arrived on time. [But it

  wasn't, so we know he's not.]

 

  [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- ---

  Kat Rose  Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:51:22 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Copyright



If anyone is interested in copyright issues, I have received voluminous

material from the American Council of Learned Societies and would be glad to

share it with you - hell, to let you have it. Just send me a message. - Allan

Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:52:03 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: gapers' block



In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait of

Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman does) - is

called a "gapers' block."



Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?



Thanks - Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 11:59:37 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder  bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.CORP.ES.COM 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



 In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

 accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait of

 Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman does) - is

 called a "gapers' block."

 

 Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?

 

 Thanks - Allan Metcalf



The act of slowing to look is called "rubbernecking" here in Salt Lake

City, but I've never heard a word for a traffic slowdown specifically

caused by that, just general things like "traffic jam" and so on. I've

never heard "gapers' block."



--Bruce Gelder



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:47:01 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Bruce Gelder wrote:



  The act of slowing to look is called "rubbernecking" here in Salt Lake

  City, but I've never heard a word for a traffic slowdown specifically

  caused by that, just general things like "traffic jam" and so on. I've

  never heard "gapers' block."



Rangers and other park workers in Yellowstone refer to "bear jams" and

"buffalo jams," etc.



(I'm a daughter and grandaughter of former Yellowstone rangers; my mother

and four of my siblings have also worked there at various times.)



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 14:27:22 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



The New York City (and vicinity--this is spread by radio traffic

reports, I think) verb is "rubbernecking" (almost always in the

gerund--"they were rubbernecking" is far commoner than "they

rubbernecked"), and the only noun form I've heard is

"rubbernecking delays."



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 15:12:23 -0500

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote:



  In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

  accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait of

  Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman does) - is

  called a "gapers' block."

 

  Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?



Here in Washington they are refered to as "Rubber-neckers".



Greg Roberts

Georgetown University



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 12:44:18 -0800

From:  Sylvia Swift  madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



i don't know any specific terms for the slowdowns rubberneckers cause.

but i did notice just this morning that a local traffic reporter called

the people who cause such a traffic jam "looky lous" (lookey-loos? the

singular is looky lou. i don't know how to spell it. i always thought

of the second part of the term as a person's name, by analogy with nervous

nellie). i had previously only heard that term from people who work in

real estate. that's what they call people who have no intention of buying

anything, but turn up for open houses, etc., for the pleasure of looking at

other people's stuff.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 18:08:15 -0500

From:  "Dale F.Coye"  CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Asia and tomatoes



The question was raised about the boundaries of Asia and whether Israel is

part of it.



Isn't this like asking whether the tomato is a fruit or a vegetable?

 According to the books maybe Israel is part of Asia, but the whole

continental division notion becomes ludicrous when we talk about the Urals as

a boundary. You may as well call the Rockies the border between two

continents. Maybe there aren't even seven continents. Or maybe there are

geologically but not culturally.  As with the tomato there is the technical

answer and the common sense answer. Tomatoes may be the fruit of the tomato

plant, but we eat them in our meals in salads and in other "vegetable" ways.

 Since we don't eat them in sweet pies or for dessert or for snacks like

other fruits, they aren't "fruits" in the common meaning of the word any more

than peppers or pinecones are. This really gets to me because I've seen

articles bewailing the fact that only 10 percent of our high school seniors

answered a test question correctly on whether the tomato was a fruit of

vegetable. So if the Israelis want to call themselves Middle easterners, as

far as I'm concerned that's what they are.



Dale Coye

The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:00:10 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: May-might



On Dale Coye's examples, I could use  might  with a  but -clause:



Someone may have lived there years ago, but not recently.



Someone might have lived there years ago, but I doubt it.



The latter would carry more uncertainty for me.



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Mar 1996 17:09:19 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Copyright



Allan,

    Thanks, I'm not interested in copyRIGHT issues, but just wanted to

share a relevant linguistic note on a folk-interpretation recently found

written on a blackboard here at the U. of Arizona:

    "This material is copyWRITTEN." (my emphasis)



I hope you won't "let us have it" in the other reading.



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Mar 1996 to 22 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 214 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. gapers' block (5)

 2. Defining Asia (2)

 3. Pseudo-Imitatives / "Conventionalized" Exclamations / & "Semanticized"

   Utterances or Noises



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 00:14:01 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER  faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: gapers' block



| In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

| accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait of

| Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman does) - is

| called a "gapers' block."



Back a few years ago when the LSA met in LA, the woman driving my shuttle in

from the airport to the hotel informed us, a propos of one of said delays,

that this was a case of PCT, which she expanded as "persons causing traffic."

I told her that in New York it would be called rubber-necking. She had never

heard the term.



On the subject of continental drift (as it were), when I was last in Israel

(mid 70's), Israel still controlled Sinai. Reservists who were assigned

to Sinai referred to this as being stationed in Africa. So, wherever Israel

is, it's *not* in Africa, I guess.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 01:08:52 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Defining Asia



It is interesting, and curious, how the discussion of the limits of Asia

keeps drifting to folk-identifications, rather than professional definitions

by our fellow social scientists, geographers (whose relevance to linguistics

geography should not be overlooked). For those interested, I would suggest

looking at some basic geography texts in the library, or for those on

university campuses, taking advantage of the presence of a whole department

of people specialized in this field to ask. A survey of folk-definitions

(like Dennis Preston's interesting study of folk-impressions of regional

varieties of American English) is another matter, but presumably should

begin from a base of professional definitions, just as linguists are not

content to let folk-concepts determine our own analyses.



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 10:28:04 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Defining Asia



rudy troike said:



 A survey of folk-definitions

  (like Dennis Preston's interesting study of folk-impressions of regional

  varieties of American English) is another matter, but presumably should

  begin from a base of professional definitions, just as linguists are not

  content to let folk-concepts determine our own analyses.



well, i think this all depends on what the goal of your research is,

but if the goal is to find out what X means, then i think the folk

conceptions are prior to the "expert definitions". if the aim is to

find out what "asia" or "fruit" means in english, then it's a sub-

question what it means in geographers 'or botantists' english. (of

course, if you're writing a "standard" dictionary, then you give the

people what they want: "expert" differentiations [usually] ahead

of folk conceptions.)



certainly, if your aim is to look at semantic change in popular

language, it's not relevant what the "experts" said unless the term

originated with them or if laypeople came to be affected by their use

of the term. for something like "fruit" (or "race" and "ethnicity",

which i've been working on), the popular use of the term has staying-

power (and its own logic) that all the experts in the world have not

been able to affect (while tomatoes may be fruit for some government

regulations, i'd hold that this is in large part because they are not

prototypical vegetables either. the technical definition of fruit

is not so strong that people argue much about whether cucumbers or

green beans are fruits, even though they "technically" are). in fact,

in the case of social "science" terms like race, and perhaps to some

extent like _asia_, the popular conceptions bias the "expert"

definitions, rather than vice versa.



reality is subjective and the majority usually rules,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 11:41:21 -0500

From:  Silke Van Ness  sv478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CNSVAX.ALBANY.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



While living in the Chicago area, I always found 'gapers'' block a very

descriptive term and have not heard it since then. Around the Albany, NY

area, the equivalent seems to be 'curiosity slow down'.



--

Silke Van Ness

Germanic & Slavic Languages and Literatures

University at Albany, SUNY  HU 216

Albany, NY 12222

E-mail: sv478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax.albany.edu  Phone: (518)442-4122



On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote:



  In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

  accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait of

  Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman does) - is

  called a "gapers' block."

 

  Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?

 

  Thanks - Allan Metcalf

 



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 22:57:31 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



Alice Faber points out,

 In the subject of continental drift (as it were), when I was last in Israel

 (mid 70's), Israel still controlled Sinai. Reservists who were assigned

 to Sinai referred to this as being stationed in Africa. So, wherever Israel

 is, it's *not* in Africa, I guess.



For awhile there, until Israel gave the Sinai back to Egypt, it was--by this

geography--a trans-continental state, as Turkey is by everyone's definition

and Panama is by some, not to mention Russia/the USSR.  But if the Suez is

the dividing line, then Israel wasn't in Africa then but Egypt is (just

barely) in Asia (again) now.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:12:21 -0800

From:  "Thomas L. Clark"  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Pseudo-Imitatives / "Conventionalized" Exclamations / &

     "Semanticized" Utterances or Noises



On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Samuel Jones wrote:

   3) 'Semanticized' noises"

 

  By the way, I remember our Oklahoma boars (no pun intended!) as

  beginning THEIR noises with a dark, muffled, deep-throated retroflex-r

  sound rather than

 

       "GGGGGmmmmppph. (The noise a real pig makes)"

 

    MAYBE



/ r:::m:f:::/ ?  I LOVE the description "dark muffled, deep retroflex"



It works for the phoneticists I know who use "gravelly voice".



Cheers,

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu

Thomas L. Clark

UNLV



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:42:53 -0800

From:  "Thomas L. Clark"  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



    Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?

 

  Here in Washington they are refered to as "Rubber-neckers".

 

  Greg Roberts



Was that Seattle, Yakima, or Spokane?



Thanks,

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:49:13 -0800

From:  "Thomas L. Clark"  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



"Looky lous" is a term I first heard in England, and first saw in print in

the Inspector Morse novels.

Cheers,

Thomas L. Clark         702/895-3473

University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011)

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



On Fri, 22 Mar 1996, Sylvia Swift wrote:



  i don't know any specific terms for the slowdowns rubberneckers cause.

  but i did notice just this morning that a local traffic reporter called

  the people who cause such a traffic jam "looky lous" (lookey-loos? the

  singular is looky lou. i don't know how to spell it. i always thought

  of the second part of the term as a person's name, by analogy with nervous

  nellie). i had previously only heard that term from people who work in

  real estate. that's what they call people who have no intention of buying

  anything, but turn up for open houses, etc., for the pleasure of looking at

  other people's stuff.

 

  sylvia swift

  madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Mar 1996 to 23 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 114 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Red eye gravy

 2. Defining Asia (2)

 3. gapers' block



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Mar 1996 20:39:54 +0000

From:  "Albert E. Krahn"  akrahn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBM.NET 

Subject: Red eye gravy



  THIS IS A MESSAGE IN 'MIME' FORMAT. Your mail reader does not support MIME.

  You may not be able to read some parts of this message.



--PART.BOUNDARY.22.827631815

Content-ID:  22_65_1_827631594 

Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



 nl  nl  signature ------------- nl AKRAHN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBM.NET  or  KRAHNA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKE=

E.TEC.WI.US nl Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College Milwaukee WI 5=

3233  nl 414/297-6519 fax 414/297-7990 home 414/476-4025 /signature =0D=





--PART.BOUNDARY.22.827631815

Content-ID:  22_65_1_827631625 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit





I first had red eye gravy in a motel in Cumberland Pass.

It is meat drippings to which very strong coffee is added.

It is served over Virginia or Kentucy ham, which is very chewy, dry

ham.



I believe we also found it in a cook book that we bought in one of

the National Park stops in the Smokies.



It's delicious -- at least to coffee lovers.





--PART.BOUNDARY.22.827631815

Content-ID:  22_65_1_827631628 

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit





I first had red eye gravy in a motel in Cumberland Pass.

It is meat drippings to which very strong coffee is added.

It is served over Virginia or Kentucy ham, which is very chewy, dry

ham.



I believe we also found it in a cook book that we bought in one of

the National Park stops in the Smokies.



It's delicious -- at least to coffee lovers.





--PART.BOUNDARY.22.827631815--



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Mar 1996 00:37:37 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Defining Asia



When we get into geography, lots of other things besides popular opinion

may take precedence. Whether Israelis (or Palestinians or Syrians or Iraqis,

for that matter) believe that they are part of Asia or not, map makers or

politicians may put them there or not, and ecologists considering biotic

provinces may well do so, folk concepts not withstanding. Cultural

anthropologists (and journalists) may see things in other lights. I was

embarrassed by an Arican American colleague one time when he asked if I had

ever been to Africa, and when I replied in the negative, he reminded me (with

great glee) that I had been to Egypt! My cognitive map obviously included

it in the Middle East.

    However, re Lynne's point that "reality is subjective and the majority

usually rules", I will return to my soapbox re public use of the term "dialect"

by linguists. After 50 years of trying to convince the public that they should

forget their pejorative understanding of the term and adopt our value-neutral

concept (a significant failure of language planning that we should have been

astute enough to recognize in advance, since after all, who knows more about

language than we?), we have, like Sisyphus, failed to push the rock to the top,

and yet we keep trying fruitlessly with each succeeding generation of students

and consumers. It's like trying to convince people that tarantulas are

harmless or that having a gopher snake in the house will keep down mice.

As linguists, we of all people should recognize the folly of trying to

engineer a change of meaning in a word, or public attitudes toward it, and

simply stop using it. Using "variety", as Raven McDavid and Al Marckwardt

counseled, would obviate the problem altogether, and enable us to communicate

more effectively with the public (and our students, if we are teachers),

and perhaps eventually succeed in getting our point across.

    I should note that I am pleased that the use of the term "substandard"

has shrunk in recent years, giving way to the linguists' more neutral

"nonstandard". So if we are beginning to make a little headway in this

respect, we might do moreso by universally resolving to use "variety" for

public consumption.

    Rudy

--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Mar 1996 12:56:21 EST

From:  simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU

Subject: Re: Defining Asia



But Rudy, The American Variety Society?



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Mar 1996 13:35:57 -0500

From:  " Annabel Greenhill "  agrhill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USA1.COM 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



In Boston, gaper's block is here referred to as 'curiosity', as in "there's

some curiosity on Rt. 128 near the Mass Pike exit=8A"



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Mar 1996 to 24 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. himbos revisited

 2. mla presiders needed (2)

 3. Apology to list

 4. gapers' block (3)

 5. e-usage survey declined

 6. Lavatory = ?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 04:52:46 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: himbos revisited



was reading the south african version of _elle_ magazine and came

across an article called "happiness is a himbo". it claims (though i

don't trust _elle_'s linguistic research methods) that the term

was coined in _tatler_ magazine (a british women's mag). no date

given.



but they also give another form that i don't remember being discussed

here: bimboy. i like it.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:30:59 -0500

From:  "Connie C. Eble"  cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU 

Subject: mla presiders needed



  If you are a member of MLA and plan to attend the meeting in

Washington in December and are willing to preside at one of the Language

and Society sessions (i.e., introduce papers, keep time, moderate

discussion), please send me your name and affiliation as you would like

it listed in the MLA program. Unfortunately, I have no control over the

day, hour, or location of the session. That information is usually sent

out in August or September. If you are willing to preside, please get in

touch with me via email (cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu) as soon as possible. Thanks.

             Connie Eble



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:18:51 -0500

From:  Anita Puckett  apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU 

Subject: Re: mla presiders needed



Dear Connie,



I'm not willing to preside, exactly, but was wondering if you would still

accept an abstract if I e-mailed it by tomorrow evening? I was seriously

under the weather long term due to a doctor's screw-up in December and was

therefore unable to stay on top of my writing obligations. I'm now

functioning and nearly well and am able to look to next year a bit. I

would work up the paper I mentioned last year on Appalachian English and

idea/ideal hypercorrection.



I realize this is an inconvenience, but if you have a slot or in need, I

may be able to contribute.



Hope things are going well for you. . .



Very best,

Anita Puckett





Appalachian Studies Program

Center for Interdisciplinary Studies

Virginia Tech University

Blacksburg VA  24061-0227

(540) 231-9526

apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.vt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 10:45:50 -0500

From:  Anita Puckett  apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU 

Subject: Apology to list



Oops, I've finally done what I never wanted to do--I posted to the list

instead of the individual. My apologies and embaressment.



Anita Puckett





Appalachian Studies Program

Center for Interdisciplinary Studies

Virginia Tech University

Blacksburg VA  24061-0227

(540) 231-9526

apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.vt.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:27:32 -0500

From:  "J. Chambers"  chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



The Toronto rush-hour reporters use the term gawkers for those drivers

who slow down or stop in hopes of seeing a severed head at an accident

site. So far, there doesn't seem to be a set phrase for the

phenomenon--not gawker's block, gawker's slowdown, etc. Just phrasal

things like "slowdown in the collector lanes due to gawkers", or "a

fender-bender on Finch is causing a backup because of gawkers".



No one here has heard gapers used for this, at least not yet. --Jack



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 09:42:31 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



Here in Seattle, I have heard "rubber-neckers" and "gawkers", never

"gapers". I believe one traffic reporter refered to a slowdown caused

by the "Mt. Rainier factor" (i.e. because of a particularly spectacular

view of Mt. Rainier). The most common radio term is that something is

"causing a distraction".

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Sat, 23 Mar 1996, Thomas L. Clark wrote:



      Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?

   

    Here in Washington they are refered to as "Rubber-neckers".

   

    Greg Roberts

 

  Was that Seattle, Yakima, or Spokane?

 

  Thanks,

  tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu

 



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 12:27:14 -0600

From:  Joan Houston Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: gapers' block



In message Fri, 22 Mar 1996 13:52:03 -0500,

 Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM  writes:



  In Chicago, a traffic slowdown caused by drivers slowing to look at an

  accident in the opposite lane, or some other sight (currently a portrait

  of Dennis Rodman of the Chicago Bulls, changing hair color as Rodman

  does) - is called a "gapers' block."

 

  Is that term used elsewhere? If not, what?

 

  Thanks - Allan Metcalf

 

In the Philadelphia area, newscasters say "There's a gaper delay at 6th and

Market."

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 14:20:34 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: e-usage survey declined



The question was, Should ADS be officially involved in the survey of e-usage?

Thanks for your input earlier this month. Your replies were mixed, and the

ADS Executive Council voted to decline official participation, the greatest

concern being our practice of not endorsing commercial activities of any

sort.



That does not mean, however, that we are expressing any opposition to the

project. I am asking Mr. Bruner to keep us informed about the survey and its

results. And now I will reprint his initial inquiry, inviting subscribers to

our list to respond directly to his request for suggestions.



- Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary



-------------------------------------------

Proposal for Standard Press Styles of Internet Terminology

              and invitation for participation



Background



The birth of the World Wide Web in the fall of 1993 brought the power

and promise of global networking to the masses. With the Internet as

its poster child, the press community began intensely to examine and

report on the state of the online world. Since then, the Internet has

become a social phenomenon that has found its way in every

publication from Computerworld to Cosmopolitan.



Given the Internet's rise in social prominence (a stature that has

garnered literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of clips in

the past two years), it is disheartening that the journalistic

community has not been able to arrive at standard conventions for

common Net-related terms.



For example, which is the correct spelling?



  E-mail  or  Email  or  e-mail  or  email



The American Heritage Dictionary says "E-mail." The Oxford English

Dictionary says "email." Wired magazine writes "e-mail." Many

publications, however, are routinely inconsistent within their own

pages.



PROPOSAL



Traditionally, styles on spelling and usage are established only after

words have been in common use for years. The momentum of the digital

age, however, has forced copy editors and language pundits to

consider standards for a whole new lexicon sometimes mere months

after the words are coined.



In the true spirit of "interactivity" which the Internet embodies,

Niehaus Ryan Haller proposes to let those who use the words -- the

online community itself -- contribute to determining their spelling

standards. The event will be a World Wide Web survey, widely

promoted across the Internet, as well as in the popular and

professional journalism press. The survey will be hosted for several

weeks on a Web page with a polling technology, containing a

list of word choices for Netizens to vote among and add comments as

desired. At the close of the survey period, the results would again

be promoted broadly across the Internet and journalist communities.

The project represents a unique opportunity for those who set

journalistic standards to get feedback first from readers themselves.



Co-sponsors of the endeavor currently include Fitzgerald

Communications; PR Newswire; Ziff Davis; Quote.com, an online

financial services review; GeoSystems, a mapping software firm; and

Release Software, a company that offers an online auto-payment

solution for software developers.



In addition to these, we are eagerly seeking other interested

companies in the high tech industry and journalistic institutions to

join in endorsing the project. Just as Netscape benefited in being

an industry leader behind standards when it created HTML tags and

then submitted them to the Internet Engineering Task Force for

standards approval, participants in this standards drive can benefit

as being active leaders in the formation of how the Internet affects

the everyday person. Sponsors are in name only. If you would like

to lend your name in support of the survey, the polling Web site

would contain a link to your URL.



Below, please find a list of potential terms to be included on the

survey. Please suggest any additional terms, likely to be used in

the popular press, which routinely present confusion.





          Potential Terms for Survey



* Note use of capitalization



(Noun)

  Cyberspace  or  cyberspace  or  Cyber-space  or  cyber-space



(Noun & Verb)

  E-mail  or  Email  or  e-mail  or  email



(Noun)

  Homepage  or  homepage  or  Home Page  or  Home page  or

   home page  or  Home-page  or  Home-Page  or  home-page



(Noun, abreviation of Internet)

  Net  or  'Net  or  net  or  'net



(Prepositional phrase, as in "Check out our site xxx")

  on-line  or  online  or  on line



(Adjective)

  on-line  or  online  or  on line



(Prepositional phrase, as in "Check out this imagexxx")

  on-screen  or  onscreen  or  on screen



(Adjective)

  on-screen  or  onscreen  or  on screen



 (Noun, abreviation of World Wide Web)



  Web  or  web  or  WWW



(Noun)

  Web page  or  Web Page  or  Webpage  or  webpage

   or  Web-page  or  web-page



 (Noun)

  Web site  or  Web Site  or  Website  or  website

   or  Web-site  or  web-site





 Rick Bruner

 Niehaus Ryan Haller

  Public Relations

 Tel: (415) 827-7058

 Fax: (415) 615-7902

 bruner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nrh.com

 (http://www.nrh.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 21:48:32 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Lavatory = ?



Ignore this if it has come up before, but one of my colleagues, from N.

Alabama, notes that the bathroom fixture he washed his hands in was a

 lavatory , but his wife (from NYC), for whom this is a  wash basin ,

has (hissy?) fits when he calls it a lavatory. I think I originally learned

 lavatory  as fancy euphemism for "bathroom", but my recollections are too

dim to be sure, though I do recall some confusion over what the term exactly

denoted. Does DARE find a regional difference here, or a chronological one?

    Rudy



    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Mar 1996 to 25 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 23 messages totalling 531 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Lavatory = ? (14)

 2. lavatory (2)

 3. Bad Hair Daze (3)

 4. MLA session in December

 5. Bad Hair Daze -Reply

 6. Toni Morrison's Lecture

 7. lavatory=?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:44:10 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



Second Response:

 My wife's grandparents who lived in Brooklyn, born in St. Vincent,

used both wash basin and lavatory for the fixture in which you would

wash your face/hands.



Bill King U. of Arizona SLAT Program



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Mar 1996 23:34:03 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



My understanding of lavatory is first a euphemism for bathroom, but

usually in a public place. The NYC image I have of lavatory is a small

room with a porcelain sink possibly removed by another architecturally

separated area from the toilet and/or tub. This is not a new sink. It

is an old one with spoke-handled faucets topped with a chrome "H" or

"C", or if older, a porcelain "hot" or "cold". Whether this is a NYC

term or just an older, NE, urban (relatively speaking) term is beyond me.

Older apartments had separated sinks, the kind with three overflow drain

holes at the rear of the basin beneath the faucets. Such a sink could

be found in isolation in an apartment or house as a wash-up location.



Large basins where workers could wash up after a shift were provided

in factories where there were no showers available. I don't know what

these were actually called.



A wash basin to me is a deep, rectangular sink intended for washing clothes

or perhaps pots.



When my resident NYC informant is available, I'll ask her about this.

By the way, I had no idea re hissy fit before she quoted someone from

greater NYC, but she never uses it. Is this another chronologically

differentiated item?



Bill King  U. of Arizona SLAT Program



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 04:47:53 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  Ignore this if it has come up before, but one of my colleagues, from N.

  Alabama, notes that the bathroom fixture he washed his hands in was a

   lavatory , but his wife (from NYC), for whom this is a  wash basin ,

  has (hissy?) fits when he calls it a lavatory. I think I originally learned

   lavatory  as fancy euphemism for "bathroom", but my recollections are too

  dim to be sure, though I do recall some confusion over what the term exactly

  denoted. Does DARE find a regional difference here, or a chronological one?



at a seminar the other week, a bunch of us ex-catholic school girls

(we can spot each other miles away) were comparing how we were

required to phrase our requests to go to the bathroom. for my school

in western new york state, we had to say "may i please go to the

lavatory". of course, none of the kids who were required to ask this

knew what a "lavatory" was, so we tended to ask to go to the

"laboratory" (said with all the vowels--like boris karloff--for extra

effect). for me, "lavatory" never meant the sink (or wash basin, if

you prefer), but the whole thing. (i think for a while i thought

that ones with stalls were "lavatories" and ones without were

"bathrooms".



we found that the older people were, the less likely the nuns were to

allow them to even mention the room. so, some people had to ask "may

i leave the room?" and it was understood that the only legitimate

reason to make that request was to go to the bathroom.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 06:06:48 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  Ignore this if it has come up before, but one of my colleagues, from N.

  Alabama, notes that the bathroom fixture he washed his hands in was a

   lavatory , but his wife (from NYC), for whom this is a  wash basin ,



While we're waiting for the word from DARE, I'll speak up to say that I'm

with your colleague from N. Alabama: the bathroom fixture you wash your

hands in is the lavatory.



  has (hissy?) fits when he calls it a lavatory. I think I originally learned



Interesting. Does he have a hissy when she calls it a "wash basin"? I

don't know that I'd have a hissy, but I think I'd smile at what strikes

my ears as a quaint expression.



Something I've wondered about before is why calling the lavatory "the

bathroom sink" is ok (although "lavatory" is much more common) while you

would never call the kitchen sink a "lavatory." Kitchens have sinks;

bathrooms have lavatories. Lavatories can be called sinks; sinks can't

be called lavatories.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   middle-aged Mississippian



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:40:39 EST

From:  Robin Garr  76702.764[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I'm viewing this discussion bemusedly from Louisville in the Ohio Valley, where

"lavatory" is occasionally heard as a euphemism for the entire room containing

the porcelain fixtures, and where "basin" is rarely heard at all.



We call the thing "the sink," occasionally modified with an adjective to denote

what room it's in: "bathroom sink" or "kitchen sink." I would have assumed

this is a Southern thing, but maybe it's Midwestern; we're sort of on the

linguistic cusp here.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 07:01:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  what room it's in: "bathroom sink" or "kitchen sink." I would have assumed

  this is a Southern thing, but maybe it's Midwestern; we're sort of on the

  linguistic cusp here.



After sending my posting earlier saying that "lavatory" is much more

common than "bathroom sink," I started thinking that maybe that's no

longer true -- that maybe it's an age thing and that younger people say

"bathroom sink" more often. Having never thought much about it before,

all I can say for sure is that I, a 53-year-old native Mississippian,

have always said "lavatory" for the bathroom fixture and "sink" for the

same fixture in the kitchen and that I've heard "bathroom sink" but

never "kitchen lavatory."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:56:17 -0500

From:  "Dale F.Coye"  CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: lavatory



In central NYstate lavatory was the school euphemism for the room with the

toilets and sinks in it, sometimes reduced to "lav" as in "who has to go to

the lav?" I don't think anyone except teachers used this. My grandmother,

however, from South Jersey, made a special point about this word -- she had a

"bathroom" upstairs, with sink, toilet, and tub, but downstairs was a

"lavatory"- a room with only sink and toilet.



Dale Coye

CFAT

Princeton, NJ



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:03:23 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: lavatory



  In central NYstate lavatory was the school euphemism for the room with the

  toilets and sinks in it, sometimes reduced to "lav" as in "who has to go to



In Mississippi the word was "basement" -- regardless of the location of

the room or whether the building even had a basement. Or at least that

was the word in elementary school. I think we might have changed later

to "restroom" or "bathroom."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:07:24 EST

From:  Robin Garr  76702.764[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  Having never thought much about it before,



Why, me, either! :^)



  ... I, a 53-year-old native Mississippian, have always said "lavatory" for  

the bathroom fixture and "sink" for the same fixture in the kitchen and that  

I've heard "bathroom sink" but never "kitchen lavatory."



I suspect region rather than age, being a native Kentuckian of identical vintage

who has never said "lavatory" for the bathroom fixture. However, your

observation about the null state of "kitchen lavatory" lends credibility to the

premise that the bathroom contains more euphemisms per square foot than any

other room in the house. (For what it's worth, though, we simply called the

toilet "the toilet." For some reason, my mother considered the term "commode"

trashy.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:46:05 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Bad Hair Daze



Years ago there was an article in AMERICAN SPEECH about trendy names for

what I used to call the barbershop or the beauty parlor, depending on the

gender of the person needing hair removed. At any rate, the effort to give

such places clever names continues and sometimes results in unintentional

jokes.



Gone, but not forgotten in Macon, Georgia, was "Hair Bizarre."



We have a new funny looking name in Milledgeville: "Hair-It-Is"--an

obvious pun on "Here it is" but an unfortunate reference to some sort of

hair disease ("hairitis").





BY THE WAY: If your satellite system can get Channel 13 WMAZ from Macon,

GA, watch my colleague and your fellow ADS-L'er David Muschell being

interviewed about his new book, WHAT IN THE WORD, on "Date with Del" at

12:15 EST today.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:55:12 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: MLA session in December



Dear John,



Recently you said you'd be sending me a proposal for Dennis Baron's MLA

session on linguistic correctness on the Internet. Can you do that soon? We

need to have the program in place shortly.



Thanks! - Allan



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:00:26 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer  dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM 

Subject: Bad Hair Daze -Reply



I once had my hair cut at a place outside Atlanta called "The Hair

Patch," punning bunnies, I guess, but jeez...



dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:32:08 -0600

From:  Lewis Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I have two distinct recollections. The first from Erie, PA or Toledo, OH

where I attended elementary schools in the 60s and "the lavatory" or "the

lav" was where we were excused to go. Since moving to Davenport, IA in

1990, I've heard/seen the term used in advertisements, TV and print, for

what a do-it-yourselfer would replace in the bathroom for hand washing.

Menards ads come to mind in particular.

Lew Sanborne  lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]saunix.sau.edu 

English and Academic Support

St. Ambrose University

Davenport, IA 52803

319 333-6335



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:19:59 -0500

From:  David R Beach  dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OSF1.GMU.EDU 

Subject: Toni Morrison's Lecture



After a bit of cyberfinagling, Allan Metcalf was able to obtain one

ticket for the Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities, and luckily, I was

able to attend thanks to his efforts. It does, however, sadden me to

report that even though the lecture was billed as sold out, easily

one-fourth of the seats in the Kennedy Center's Concert Hall were

vacant. But I digress. My purpose here is to inform my colleagues of

Toni Morrison's comments in last night's lecture.



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



"The Future of Time: Literature and Diminished Expectations"

Toni Morrison

The 1996 Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities, 25 March 1996



"What will we think of [in our] longer, more comfortable lives?"



Toni Morrison repeatedly asked her listeners this question as she re-echoed

that age-old wisdom that "all knowledge requires a grasp of our

precedents" in last night's National Endowment for the Humanities

Jefferson Lecture.



Washington _Post_ reporter Jacqueline Trescott begins her review of

Morrison's lecture with "In a somber look at humanity's future..."

"Somber" ain't the word. The Nobel laureate painted a raw, naked, and

sometimes horrific picture of what our future might become since the

"comfortable assurance of world without end is in debate."



While acknowledging that the social and natural sciences are focused

rightly on the future, Morrison fears, and rightly so, that the political

and human sciences might stagnate by their dependence on, and revision

of, the past, and thus ruin the future. She pointed to the '60s--a time

that many wish to forget or alter or allocate blame:



"Killing the '60s, turning that decade into an aberration, an exotic

malady ripe with excess, drugs, and disobedience, is designed to bury its

central features--emancipation, generosity, acute political awareness,

and a sense of shared and mutually responsible society."



She is not saying to forget the past, but to use the past to move our

morality forward, to "find a journey to the cellar of time as a rescue."

Morrison quoted from Peter Hoeg's work _The History of Danish Dreams_:

"Regression becomes progression."



"To weigh the future of future thoughts requires [a] powerful mind to

weigh the morality [of them all]. [We] require thinking of [the] quality

of human life, intelligent life, [and the] obligation of moral life."

With the future emphasis in the social and natural sciences,

these are the things we must think of in our longer, more comfortable

lives to come.



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

David Beach, ESL Coordinator/Consultant, The Writing Center

George Mason University, Fairfax, Virginia, USA

ph: +1-703-993-1200 fax: +1-703-993-3664

dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gmu.edu  http://osf1.gmu.edu/~wcenter

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:26:27 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: Re: Bad Hair Daze



 Years ago there was an article in AMERICAN SPEECH about trendy names for

 what I used to call the barbershop or the beauty parlor . . .



Thanks to the cyber-Index to vols. 1-60 of _American Speech_ (see our Web

site - right, Natalie?), the citation is readily available:



Patricia Byrd. The Hairbender Beauty Salon de Paris of Ethel. 57 (fall

1982): 183-89.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:11:59 -0500

From:  Tom Creswell  creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



-- [ From: Tom Creswell * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --



I am surprised to learn that none of those responding to this thread use the

terms I have usd all my life. Born in 1920 and raised on south side Chicago

, for me, the hands and face washing utility in what we always called the

BATHROOMis a WASHBOWL.



The dishwashing utility in the kitchen usually was referred to simply as

the SINK, the context usually making clear that it was the facility in the

kitchen--"Put the dishes in the sink, when you're finished." But we also

had the idiom "Threw everything in but the kitchen sink."Downstairs in the

basement was a LAUNDRY TUB.



The euphemisms we learned as children for excretory acts were "NUMBER 1" and

"NUMBER 2." I leave it to those of you who learned other terms to guess

which act each refers to. In the Catholic boys school I attended, we asked

permission to "Leave the room," If permission was granted we went to the

"boys bathroom .":



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 09:33:56 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  other room in the house. (For what it's worth, though, we simply called the

  toilet "the toilet." For some reason, my mother considered the term "commode"

  trashy.)



Although I don't remember ever hearing the toilet/commode variation

discussed, I think your mother's attitude was probably not unusual.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   happy that I would have passed your mother's social test --

   I've always said "toilet"



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 08:54:07 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry  maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I'm with Tom. In my family it was always called a WASHBOWL or the BATHROOM

SINK. I think "lavatory" was only used in school, and, as Lynne mentioned

was the only acceptable term.



In a related note, having installed a newer more efficient model, I was

giving away the old toilet at a garage sale. At one point someone asked

me, "How much for that bathroom?" It didn't register with me immediately

and he repeated "I'll take that bathroom over there." I have no idea where

he was from originally, but that was a usage I hadn't heard before here in

the Northwest.



Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Tom Creswell wrote:



  -- [ From: Tom Creswell * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

 

  I am surprised to learn that none of those responding to this thread use the

  terms I have usd all my life. Born in 1920 and raised on south side Chicago

  , for me, the hands and face washing utility in what we always called the

  BATHROOMis a WASHBOWL.

 

  The dishwashing utility in the kitchen usually was referred to simply as

  the SINK, the context usually making clear that it was the facility in the

  kitchen--"Put the dishes in the sink, when you're finished." But we also

  had the idiom "Threw everything in but the kitchen sink."Downstairs in the

  basement was a LAUNDRY TUB.

 

  The euphemisms we learned as children for excretory acts were "NUMBER 1" and

  "NUMBER 2." I leave it to those of you who learned other terms to guess

  which act each refers to. In the Catholic boys school I attended, we asked

  permission to "Leave the room," If permission was granted we went to the

  "boys bathroom .":

 

  Tom Creswell

 



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 10:13:06 -0700

From:  Kat Rose  Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU 

Subject: lavatory=?



Things may be changing in Davenport, Iowa. I grew up (about 30 years ago)

across the river, in Rock Island, and we used "sink" for the basin and

"bathroom" for the room. A my-age cousin is a do-it-yourselfer in

Davenport, and he still says "sink." "Lavatory" was used for the room in

more formal situations--principal or visitors in the classroom, unfamiliar

adult relatives in the room, public places...



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:24:18 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Bad Hair Daze



  Thanks to the cyber-Index to vols. 1-60 of _American Speech_ (see our Web

  site - right, Natalie?), the citation is readily available:



Right: http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:30:08 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



  The euphemisms we learned as children for excretory acts were "NUMBER 1" and

  "NUMBER 2." I leave it to those of you who learned other terms to guess



I don't think these terms were regional. I'm saying that based on a funny

moment at a departmental meeting several years ago. (Our department is

made up of people from all over the US.) I can't remember now exactly what

we were discussing, but I think we were annoyed about something or somebody

outside of the department. We decided there were two possible courses of

action, labeled number #1 and #2 by somebody at the meeting. After a

bit more discussion, a rather "lady-like" person spoke up with a slightly

exasperated tone, saying "Well, *I* think we should just *do number 2*."

Laughter erupted.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:53:25 -0600

From:  Joan Houston Hall  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



Volume III of DARE will have an entry for "lavatory," but unfortunately only

for variant pronunciations of the term. We had 79 responses in answer to

the question about names for indoor toilets, but they were pretty widely

scattered. Perhaps we could have made a case that the term is less frequent

in the western part of the Midland, but it was pretty tenuous, so we left it

out. Sorry.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 12:47:41 -0500

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



At 10:11 AM 3/26/96, Tom Creswell wrote:

 

 The euphemisms we learned as children for excretory acts were "NUMBER 1" and

 "NUMBER 2." I leave it to those of you who learned other terms to guess

 which act each refers to.



When I was doing field work on the Sea Islands near Charleston, SC, I

sometimes spent the night in one of the local Econolodge motels. The toilet

had two flush handles, one for "simple waste" and the other for "complex

waste". I thought that the opposition was stated inadequately, though one

may choose to interpret "complex" in the sense of 'combination'.



Sali.



*******************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene            s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago           312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

*******************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Mar 1996 to 26 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 242 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Thanks for the lavatory (3)

 2. Lavatory = ? (5)

 3. lavatory

 4. American Speech 70.4 Winter 1995



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Mar 1996 22:57:19 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike  RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Thanks for the lavatory



Thanks for all the input re "lavatory" -- I'll pass it along to my colleague;

several responses confirmed my recollection of the school term. Probably

some terms get distributed about via the educational profession network that

may override regional native usages. My mother, by the way, still prefers

"commode" as a euphemism for "toilet". The "No. 1/2" terms I first learned

from reading an article about St. Thomas in the Caribbean, where fresh water

is scarce, and people in hotels were advised with a note posted in the

bathroom: "In this island of the sun, don't flush after Number 1."

    Rudy



--Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 11:19:56 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks  chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I am impressed by the depth and breadth of posters' recollections on

this thread of lavatories, etc. Sali's "simple" and "compound" waste

contribution ("compound-complex", anyyone??) is great. How about

terms in this semantic area in other languages? In Indonesian, for

example, we ask if we can go to the little room (kamar kecil) or

to behind (ke belakang). Dependig on the rurality of the site, we

might be asked if we want to "throw big water" or "little water"

(buang air besar/buang air kecil). Throwing little water might

entail simply stepping behind a suitably distant tree; to throw

big water would be more complex--and hazardous. Stepping gingerly

out on a bamboo trunk slick with rain over a ditch while grasping another

pole for stability indeed concentrates the mind wonderfully for the

task at hand (!)



Any other interesting foreign language euphamisms for this gripping

subject?        Chris Brooks / Kuwait



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 05:27:46 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



As a kid in NJ 1944-1953 I could never get straight the difference between

lavatory and laboratory, so I always called it a sink. The only people I

ever heard use the term lavatory were teachers, and they usualy used it as a

euphemism for bathroom. If you think of a laboratory as a place where

(work)labor is performed and lavatory for washing

it is easier for a kid to comprehend. I just figured it out, I think.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com







 Ignore this if it has come up before, but one of my colleagues, from N.

 Alabama, notes that the bathroom fixture he washed his hands in was a

  lavatory , but his wife (from NYC), for whom this is a  wash basin ,

 has (hissy?) fits when he calls it a lavatory. I think I originally learned

  lavatory  as fancy euphemism for "bathroom", but my recollections are too

 dim to be sure, though I do recall some confusion over what the term exactly

 denoted. Does DARE find a regional difference here, or a chronological one?

     Rudy

 

     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:11:37 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I've always cringed when someone has said "The dog went to the bathroom on

that tree."



My favorite movie line was delivered by Richard Burton in Who's afraid of

Virginia

Woolf when he staggers in and drunkenly asks, "Where's your euphemism?"



Seth Sklarey

====



Allen Mayberry wrote:



 In a related note, having installed a newer more efficient model, I was

 giving away the old toilet at a garage sale. At one point someone asked

 me, "How much for that bathroom?" It didn't register with me immediately

 and he repeated "I'll take that bathroom over there." I have no idea where

 he was from originally, but that was a usage I hadn't heard before here in

 the Northwest.

 

 Allen

 maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 06:18:33 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



I always thought that the book "LOOKING OUT FOR NUMBER ONE" which was

popular several

years ago was the autobiography of a urologist.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unspoken Word

Coconut grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



P.S. My favorite slogan on a septic tank cleanout truck for a local

plumbing company is

"We're Number 1 in the Number 2 business."

=============



   The euphemisms we learned as children for excretory acts were "NUMBER 1" and

   "NUMBER 2." I leave it to those of you who learned other terms to guess

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 07:47:14 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: Lavatory = ?



Going to the LOO in Britain or il gabinetto in Italy.



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



 I am impressed by the depth and breadth of posters' recollections on

 this thread of lavatories, etc. Sali's "simple" and "compound" waste

 contribution ("compound-complex", anyyone??) is great. How about

 terms in this semantic area in other languages? In Indonesian, for

 example, we ask if we can go to the little room (kamar kecil) or

 to behind (ke belakang). Dependig on the rurality of the site, we

 might be asked if we want to "throw big water" or "little water"

 (buang air besar/buang air kecil). Throwing little water might

 entail simply stepping behind a suitably distant tree; to throw

 big water would be more complex--and hazardous. Stepping gingerly

 out on a bamboo trunk slick with rain over a ditch while grasping another

 pole for stability indeed concentrates the mind wonderfully for the

 task at hand (!)

 

 Any other interesting foreign language euphamisms for this gripping

 subject?        Chris Brooks / Kuwait

 

 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 13:03:54 -0700

From:  William King  WFKING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU 

Subject: Re: lavatory



Natalie noted that the basement was the place to go in Mississippi.

This was true also in upstate NY where the old elementary schools

had the facilities in the basement and the use carried over to other

buildings.

I wonder who first came up with that four classroom, foursquare floor plan.



Oh, the basement was also where we went during air-raid drills, also

called "bomb drills." Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

Bill King SLAT University of Arizona



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 15:53:05 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 

Subject: American Speech 70.4 Winter 1995



If you're a member of the American Dialect Society, you should be finding in

your mail the Winter 1995 issue of American Speech, the last one under Ronald

Butters' editorship. Yes, it's a little late, but worth the wait!



Major articles on

- zero copula in the Creole mesolect by John McWhorter

- "Marizy Doats" and Law French and much else by Dale B.J. Randall

- What determines a dialect area? by Lawrence M. Davis and Charles L. Houck

- review of research on German dialects in North America by Silke Van Ness

- Among the New Words by John and Adele Algeo



and short articles on

- east in Hawaii, reflexives, Sea Island Creole, the suffix -ista, womyn,

"unless" in Berks County PA, and a potentially obscene bumper sticker.



It concludes with a detailed index to the entire volume.



If you are *not* an ADS member, I can't send you a free copy, but I can send

membership information. Just let me know your s-mail address.



- Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 20:59:54 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thanks for the lavatory



 From Rudy Troike:



 The "No. 1/2" terms I first learned from reading

 an article about St. Thomas in the Caribbean, where fresh water

 is scarce, and people in hotels were advised with a note posted in the

 bathroom: "In this island of the sun, don't flush after Number 1."



Cf. the color-coded jingle popular during the California drought of the late

1970's:



If it's yellow, let it mellow,

If it's brown, flush it down.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Mar 1996 21:43:18 -0400

From:  "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee"  dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thanks for the lavatory



On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Larry Horn quoted the color-coded jingle popular

during the California drought of the late 1970's:



  If it's yellow, let it mellow,

  If it's brown, flush it down.

 

It's always been amazing to me that people actually purchase and drink

Mellow-Yellow!



Bethany

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.  | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://ljp.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Mar 1996 to 27 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 132 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Thanks for the lavatory

 2. does Comm Decency Act prohibit mentioning "Dole" on the net?

 3. Bounced Mail

 4. American Speech 70.4 Winter 1995



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Mar 1996 08:14:38 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka  wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 

Subject: Re: Thanks for the lavatory



 On Wed, 27 Mar 1996, Larry Horn quoted the color-coded jingle popular

 during the California drought of the late 1970's:

 

   If it's yellow, let it mellow,

   If it's brown, flush it down.

  

 It's always been amazing to me that people actually purchase and drink

 Mellow-Yellow!

 

 Bethany

 Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D.



--or any beer with a picture of an animal on the label!





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Mar 1996 05:47:15 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: does Comm Decency Act prohibit mentioning "Dole" on the net?



 This came from some anti-censorship lists:

 

 Tehran (Reuter) - For the past few weeks, the behind the doors discussion

 at many Iranian newspaper and magazine publishing outfits seems to be

 revolving not around political, social and economic issues, but the

 spelling of Bob Dole's name instead. It turns out that the proper spelling

 of the Republican Party's likely nominee, Dole, is exactly the same as that

 of the word penis in Persian. "At first it might seem funny to some people,

 but it's creating a serious issue for us. How can we write headlines using

 that word?," said Majid Fanni, a prepress specialist at a Tehran service

 bureau.

 

 Professor Hassan Khadem, a Persian literature lecturer at New York

 University added "It's actually not a real problem. In Persian, certain

 vowels are optional. [Therefore] they could write his name a couple of

 different ways to avoid the ambiguity. But for an exact pronunciation,

 'Dowl' as opposed to 'Dol', well, they'd have to spell it that way." Fanni

 explained "It's not easy. In print, especially for headlines, we don't use

 [optional] vowel symbols. Because of that, his name can be read in that

 way."

 

 International organizations are quite familiar and cognizant of these types

 of issues. General Motors for example, spends over 300,000 dollars a year

 just researching car names to make sure they are not trade marked, as well

 as being acceptable in foreign countries.

 

 Ali Zarkoob, a grade school teacher in Western Tehran said "I'm sure kids

 will find it very funny. The humor magazines will probably go crazy over it

 too." A columnist for Tehran's Hamshahri daily who requested to remain

 anonymous stated "It's a real problem that no one wants to face. Think

 about it. What should we write if he wins? 'Clinton loses Presidency'?

 That's not right. 'Penis wins US Presidency' isn't exactly acceptable

 either."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Mar 1996 14:04:14 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Bounced Mail



  Date:     Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:00:54 -0500

  Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACPUB.DUKE.EDU

 

 The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

 0721 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

 for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

 the list has been found in mail body.

 

 -------------------- Message in error (36 lines) --------------------------

  Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 15:01:49 -0500 (EST)

  From: Ronald Butters  amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu 

  Subject: Re: Bad Hair Daze

 

  One footnote: unhappily, Dr. Byrd died a year or so ago. The ADS lost one

  if its wittiest and most spakrling members.

 

  On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote:

 

    Date: Tue, 26 Mar 1996 11:26:27 -0500

    From: Allan Metcalf  AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 

    Subject: Re: Bad Hair Daze

   

     Years ago there was an article in AMERICAN SPEECH about trendy names for

     what I used to call the barbershop or the beauty parlor . . .

   

    Thanks to the cyber-Index to vols. 1-60 of _American Speech_ (see our Web

    site - right, Natalie?), the citation is readily available:

   

    Patricia Byrd. The Hairbender Beauty Salon de Paris of Ethel. 57 (fall

    1982): 183-89.

   



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:49:54 +1100

From:  Baden Hughes  h9405049[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENT.ANU.EDU.AU 

Subject: Re: American Speech 70.4 Winter 1995



Alan,



Noted your AS message. Is there any way of getting hold of a copy of What

determines a dialect area? by Lawrence M. Davis and Charles L. Houck as

appearing in this issue ?



I'm not a member of ADS, but would really like a copy of the article.



Baden



=============================================================================

Baden Hughes

B.Hughes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.anu.edu.au

h9405049[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.anu.edu.au



Snail Mail : LPO Box A211 ANU Canberra 2601 ACT AUSTRALIA

Phone : (+61) 06 247-2762

=============================================================================



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Mar 1996 to 28 Mar 1996

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 346 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. discussant (6)

 2. Discussant

 3. Red eye gravy -Reply

 4. dialect areas and the latest American Speech (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 05:51:48 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: discussant



I am intrigued by the word "discussant" below. This is the first instance

of its use I have seen. Any previous use? Apparently

discussant=panelist=discusser



Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



====================



I would very much appreciate recommendations (including self-recommendations)

for a qualified person to be a discussant for a panel I am chairing on

"Computer-Mediated Conversation" for the 5th International Pragmatics

Conference in Mexico City this July. The ideal discussant would be an

established scholar with interests in both discourse analysis and

computer-mediated communication, and who is already planning to attend the

Pragmatics Conference.



The original proposal for the panel included Helen Dry in this role, but

unfortunately Helen is unable to attend the conference.



If you have a suggestion for someone you think would be appropriate, please

e-mail me at susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu.



Susan Herring



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:19:22 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: Re: discussant



seth sez:



  I am intrigued by the word "discussant" below. This is the first instance

  of its use I have seen. Any previous use? Apparently

  discussant=panelist=discusser

 

  I would very much appreciate recommendations (including self-recommendations)

  for a qualified person to be a discussant for a panel I am chairing on



i think "discussant" is pretty standard in conferences where there

are papers and reaction papers. so, there are presenters and

discussants. perhaps it's also used in cases like _current

anthropology_ and _brain and behavioral sciences_ where the same

format is put to print, but i'm not sure. (where there would be

authors and discussants, i guess.) it's certainly the noun i'd use to

refer to such people.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 09:15:15 EST

From:  Patricia Kuhlman  GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET 

Subject: Discussant



  In response to Seth Sklarey's query re discussant meaning panelist

in a discussion, the OED gives a 1927 citation for this word. It is of

American origin. Wouldn't you know it? Discussant sets my "dentes" on

edge. Presumably most British people likely to be writing about members

of a discussion have studied at least a bit of Latin and know that you cant'

can't make a present participle from a past participle (discuss  discutio,

discutere, discussus) and switch conjugations to boot. But perhaps I

should lighten up and appreciate that in English you CAN mix and match.

A properly formed Latinate participle would yield discutient instead of

discussant and many people wouldn't make the connection.



   Patricia vobis plurimam salutem dicit.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 11:18:04 -0500

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene"  s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU 

Subject: Re: discussant



At 9:19 AM 3/29/96, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



 i think "discussant" is pretty standard in conferences where there

 are papers and reaction papers. so, there are presenters and

 discussants. perhaps it's also used in cases like _current

 anthropology_ and _brain and behavioral sciences_ where the same

 format is put to print, but i'm not sure. (where there would be

 authors and discussants, i guess.) it's certainly the noun i'd use to

 refer to such people.



  In the BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES the discussions are identified as

"commentaries", I think. So I would expect the authors of such discussion

essays to be "commentators", although this term seems to have been used

only for audio and visual modes of communication.



Sali.





*******************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene            s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago           312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

*******************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 12:43:11 -0500

From:  E Wayles Browne  ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU 

Subject: Re: discussant



On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



  I am intrigued by the word "discussant" below. This is the first instance

  of its use I have seen. Any previous use? Apparently

  discussant=panelist=discusser

 

  Seth Sklarey

  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com

 

  ====================

 

  I would very much appreciate recommendations (including self-recommendations)

  for a qualified person to be a discussant for a panel I am chairing on

  "Computer-Mediated Conversation" for the 5th International Pragmatics

  Conference in Mexico City this July. The ideal discussant would be an

.....



Not quite the same as a panelist. I've been a discussant at various

linguistics meetings. The idea that is one or more panelists/speakers/

participants give their papers, and then the discussant comments on

their papers (criticizes, clarifies, adds further information, gives

his/her own opinion). So they're all panelists, but the discussant

doesn't present a paper in the same way that the others do.



Wayles Browne, Dept. of Linguistics, Cornell Univ.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:08:51 EST

From:  Larry Horn  LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU 

Subject: Re: discussant



Yes, as Sali predicts, the people who write (or in my case, get solicited to

write but never actually get around to writing) the commentaries in the BBS

Peer Review issues are called commentators, or possibly peer reviewers, but

not discussants. "Discussant" or "designated discussant" has been in standard

use at linguistics meetings for quite some time now, though. I remember being

the designated discussant for Jim McCawley's "Unsyntax" presentation at the

Milwaukee Syntax Bakeoff of 1979, and taking down from the shelf my collection

of those discussion papers (the papers themselves were collected in Syntax and

Semantics 12) -- "CURRENT SYNTACTIC THEORIES: Discussion Papers from the 1979

Milwaukee Syntax Conference", ed. by Michael Kac, IULC, 1980)--I read in Mike's

Editor's Foreword that "Each presentation [of the 14 at the conference] was

followed by remarks from an invited discussant".

 I think the version "DESIGNATED discussant", which I recall from the same

period, was modelled after the designated hitter (the addition to the

American League baseball rulebook adopted earlier in the 1970's); cf. now

"designated driver".



Larry ("Giving UN to Others") Horn



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 13:20:50 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

      owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU 

Subject: Re: discussant



If I recall correctly, the first use of "commentator" dates

to the late sixteenth century, and it was then used for people

commenting on paper--what we might call op ed writers or

syndicated columnists.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 15:13:28 -0600

From:  Miriam Meyers  MMEYERS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUS1.MSUS.EDU 

Subject: Re: Red eye gravy -Reply



It's especially good when made from country ham scrapings; I pour out

the drippings, deglaze the pan with strong coffee. (Country ham is

DEFINITELY an acquired taste.)

Miriam Meyers (native of Georgia, eating Southern food increasingly to get

through Minnesota winters)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 21:37:41 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer"  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 

Subject: Re: dialect areas and the latest American Speech



On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Baden Hughes wrote:



  Noted your AS message. Is there any way of getting hold of a copy of What

  determines a dialect area? by Lawrence M. Davis and Charles L. Houck as

  appearing in this issue ?

 

I just read this article and it's very provocative. Larry and Charles

raise some serious questions about whether or not we can truly draw

dialect boundaries in any way that is statistically valid. I'd like to

throw several corollary questions out to this list.



First, granting for the sake of discussion that Larry and Charles are right,

which I can't judge, not being a math person, their article

talks about boundaries in the USA based upon LInguistic Atlas type data.

Are there dialect boundaries ANYWHERE that would be valid by these same

tests? In other words, if dialect boundaries are indeed more the

product of subjective perception than a relfelection of objective

realities, is this simply a something that is true for USA English, or is

it true everywhere?



Second, much of the discussion in this article is based on lexicon.

Instances of "dialect mixture" involve people who manifest two

regionalisms for the same object, like "frying pan" and "skillet."

Are these problems confined entirely to lexical geographies, or can we

make the same generalizations about pronunciation and morphology or syntax?

Sociolinguists in the Labovian tradition identify northern and southern

vowels shifts, along with a Midland area which participates in neither.

What is the relationship between "dialect mixture" and these phonological

events?



Third, I would think if Larry and Charles' conclusions were valid, they

would apply to other forms of human geography besides dialectology. Is

it just as tricky--or downright impossible--when we try to map other

kinds of behavior? I'd be interested to see some geography department

types get into this debate.



Fourth, a comment rather than a question. Certainly Davis and Houck have

a point about regional differences -- at least, those of the sort we

measure in things like Kurath 1949 -- being harder to demonstrate west of

the Missississippi. Wolfram's 1991 map (based on Labov's work) show a

narrow Midland band in the east spreading everywhere as we approaches the

Rockies (from the east, that is). I suspect one reason for this as that

the the two non-Midland cultural hearths, the North and South, didn't

keep their identity farther west. Cotton farming--well, there was some

in Texas, but not in Oklahoma or New Mexico, so plantation culture and

"plantation southern" kinda peter out as you go west. (And you don't get

the concentrations of AFrican Americans whose dialect might contribute a

lot to the distincition between Plantation Southern and "South Midalnd").

In the north, Yankee culture gets more and more diluted as you go west.

You still find those little villages that look like they were transplanted

from New England in southereastern Wisconsin, but I suspect not so much

in North Dakota (although they turn up again in n. California and

farther NW).  And Larry and Charles are right when they point out that

Inland Northern is not exactly uniform, although I think it probably has

a common set of features.



Fifth--if we give up on "dialect areas" or "dialect boundaries"--not that

I am going to, but if--does that still mean that there are not certain

features whose variation is at least in part regional?



Well, enough rambling for now.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Mar 1996 22:49:31 -0500

From:  dennisr  dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MGL.CA 

Subject: Re: dialect areas and the latest American Speech



May we know the article source you are referencing?





Dennis



 On Fri, 29 Mar 1996, Baden Hughes wrote:

 

   Noted your AS message. Is there any way of getting hold of a copy of What

   determines a dialect area? by Lawrence M. Davis and Charles L. Houck as

   appearing in this issue ?

  

 I just read this article and it's very provocative. Larry and Charles

 raise some serious questions about whether or not we can truly draw

 dialect boundaries in any way that is statistically valid. I'd like to

 throw several corollary questions out to this list.

 

 First, granting for the sake of discussion that Larry and Charles are right,

 which I can't judge, not being a math person, their article

 talks about boundaries in the USA based upon LInguistic Atlas type data.

 Are there dialect boundaries ANYWHERE that would be valid by these same

 tests? In other words, if dialect boundaries are indeed more the

 product of subjective perception than a relfelection of objective

 realities, is this simply a something that is true for USA English, or is

 it true everywhere?

 

 Second, much of the discussion in this article is based on lexicon.

 Instances of "dialect mixture" involve people who manifest two

 regionalisms for the same object, like "frying pan" and "skillet."

 Are these problems confined entirely to lexical geographies, or can we

 make the same generalizations about pronunciation and morphology or syntax?

 Sociolinguists in the Labovian tradition identify northern and southern

 vowels shifts, along with a Midland area which participates in neither.

 What is the relationship between "dialect mixture" and these phonological

 events?

 

 Third, I would think if Larry and Charles' conclusions were valid, they

 would apply to other forms of human geography besides dialectology. Is

 it just as tricky--or downright impossible--when we try to map other

 kinds of behavior? I'd be interested to see some geography department

 types get into this debate.

 

 Fourth, a comment rather than a question. Certainly Davis and Houck have

 a point about regional differences -- at least, those of the sort we

 measure in things like Kurath 1949 -- being harder to demonstrate west of

 the Missississippi. Wolfram's 1991 map (based on Labov's work) show a

 narrow Midland band in the east spreading everywhere as we approaches the

 Rockies (from the east, that is). I suspect one reason for this as that

 the the two non-Midland cultural hearths, the North and South, didn't

 keep their identity farther west. Cotton farming--well, there was some

 in Texas, but not in Oklahoma or New Mexico, so plantation culture and

 "plantation southern" kinda peter out as you go west. (And you don't get

 the concentrations of AFrican Americans whose dialect might contribute a

 lot to the distincition between Plantation Southern and "South Midalnd").

 In the north, Yankee culture gets more and more diluted as you go west.

 You still find those little villages that look like they were transplanted

 from New England in southereastern Wisconsin, but I suspect not so much

 in North Dakota (although they turn up again in n. California and

 farther NW).  And Larry and Charles are right when they point out that

 Inland Northern is not exactly uniform, although I think it probably has

 a common set of features.

 

 Fifth--if we give up on "dialect areas" or "dialect boundaries"--not that

 I am going to, but if--does that still mean that there are not certain

 features whose variation is at least in part regional?

 

 Well, enough rambling for now.

 

 Tim Frazer

 

 



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1996 to 29 Mar 1996

************************************************



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There are 4 messages totalling 59 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. How do I unsubscribe???? (2)

 2. does Comm Decency Act prohibit mentioning "Dole" on the net?

 3. discussant



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Mar 1996 12:52:45 -0330

From:  Trevor Porter  tporter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MUN.CA 

Subject: How do I unsubscribe????



Sorry to be putting this in everyone's mail, but I don't know how to

unsubscribe . . . HELP!



TP



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Mar 1996 10:27:45 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: does Comm Decency Act prohibit mentioning "Dole" on the net?



Probably they don't write much about "Being on the Dole" either!

Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:19:36 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor  maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU 

Subject: Re: How do I unsubscribe????



Send the following as the complete body on an e-mail message to

listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu:



unsub ADS-L



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Mar 1996 11:02:27 -0800

From:  SETH SKLAREY  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM 

Subject: Re: discussant



 Sali wrote:

   In the BEHAVIORAL AND BRAIN SCIENCES the discussions are identified as

 "commentaries", I think. So I would expect the authors of such discussion

 essays to be "commentators", although this term seems to have been used

 only for audio and visual modes of communication.



==================



AAAARRRGHHH..........! (I just was reminded of a pet peeve. I am not commenting

on Sali's usage).



Why aren't people who make comments "commenters? Commentators are O.K, in my

book as long as they comment, but they go over the line when they commentate.



Likewise, students who go through orientation, in my humble opinion become

oriented, not orientated.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Mar 1996 to 30 Mar 1996

************************************************





There is one message totalling 34 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. elusive bi paper



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 31 Mar 1996 12:17:35 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy"  104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 

Subject: elusive bi paper



a number of people from this list requested (and i hope now have

copies of) a paper of mine called "the elusive bisexual", which i

touted as "to appear in livia & hall, _queerly phrased_".



well, it was accepted for that book, with the usual proviso about

editorial adjustments, and it now turns out that the publisher wants

it cut by 1/2 (30pp.). ouch! (i've always suspected i talk too

much.)



so, this note is just to say that if you do have a copy of the paper

and want to cite it for some reason, please cite it as a manuscript,

not as a "to appear", because god knows what parts will actually

appear. i'm hoping to chop it in such a way that the parts that

aren't in _queerly phrased_ might be made into another coherent paper

and published elsewhere (suggestions welcome).



if you don't have a copy of the paper, i apologize for filling your

mailbox.



lynne the loquacious linguist



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1996 to 31 Mar 1996

************************************************



.