March 1-10, 1997 Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1997 to 1 Mar 1997 There are 28 messages totalling 896 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, 2. h as voiceless vowel 3. hypercorrection (3) 4. /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply (4) 5. Slang for a Saturday (1881 Stage Slang) 6. adverbs (5) 7. No problemo! (7) 8. Fwd: Between you and I 9. indefinite pronouns (2) 10. no problemo! (2) 11. might could ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 23:17:50 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, Thanks, Mark Mandel. I wondered how the spaces would survive cyberspace and convolutions of fibero ptics going in and out of dossed apples and blue unixes. I composed the table in Eudora and assumed it was friendly with whatever everyone else was using. Sorry about my naivete. I'll try something else: **schwa LANE (Linguistic Atlas of New England) = 183 LAMSAS (Linguistic Atlas of the Middle and South Atlantic States) = 534 **barred-i (high central vowel) LANE = 181 LAMSAS = 416 **upgliding high central vowel LANE = 14 LAMSAS = 24 **dotted-i (high front tense vowel; what's used now) LANE = 13 LAMSAS = none **vowel of 'bet' LANE = 3 LAMSAS = none **vowel of 'bite' LANE = 2 LAMSAS = none **no vowel (2 syllable = 'Mizurr') LANE = 3 LAMSAS = 6 o ('Mizuro') LANE = 1 LAMSAS = none What seems to have happened is at some point between here and there, hither and yon, my Hard Returns disappeared and text wrap interacted with multiple spaces and inserted 's to make a jumble. I suffered the same fate when Barry Popik posted a msg of great value to me about 'Show Me'. I asked him to re-post it and he did, with a lagnaippe or pilo'n (or whatever you call something extra for nothing). I shouldn't oughta did that, cause I shoulda knowed better, from experience. Thanks, Mark. Hope you can follow my vertical table that is one item deep. I might could have taken time to look up my figures on LAGS (Linguistic Atlas of the Gulf States), but that would have complicated things because the LAGS system of phonetic/phonemic notation isn't an exact match of LANE and LAMSAS. I could have added figures from LAUM (Linguistic Atlas of the Upper Midwest), but Harold Allen just had a binary count: dotted-i vs schwa. You'll just hafta wait till my article comes out in however long it takes to get it into print. An interesting question to pursue is the forward-shifting of this unstressed vowel in 20th-century American English, many dialects thereof, but not all at the same time. LAGS data are from speakers who were born about a generation and a half later than LANE and LAMSAS, with LAMSAS about half a generation later than LANE. The first vowel also has interesting dialectal variation, schwa versus 'bit' or high central vowel. But that one isn't as interesting to me as the final vowel. There's also a lot of variation in the -ou- from one dialect area to another, as well as what's happening now with 'sure' rhyming with 'fir' in Valley Talk and in the speech of lots of other young 'uns. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:20:38 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: h as voiceless vowel OK, let's try another approach. If you define consonants as involving a supra-laryngeal constriction, /h/ isn't a consonant; its constriction, such as it is, is at the larynx. The noise source for (voiced) vowels is, roughly, produced by the periodic, mostly regular, vibration of the vocal folds. The noise source for /h/ is turbulent air flow through the vocal folds. The shape of the upper vocal tract is roughly the same for /h/ as for the following vowel, as the shape of the upper vocal tract is controlled independently from the configuration of the vocal folds. So, just as the upper vocal tract is in a different configuration for /i/ in _he_ than it is for /u/ in _who_, it differs in comparable ways during the two /h/ sounds in _he_ and _who_. Where the aspiration comes in is that in [thi] _tea_ and [thu] _two_, there is a lag following the release of the oral closure in the two instances of /t/ and the onset of periodic vocal fold vibration for the following vowels. During this interval of aspiration, the upper vocal tract is moving from the position required for /t/ and that required for the vowels, so the aspiration intervals are acoustically different in the two contexts. And they are different in comparable ways to those in which the two instances of /h/ differ. It's not physiologically necessary that this voicing lag/aspiration intervene between consonant release and vowel; as Terry notes, there are languages which contrast voiceless aspirated from unaspirated stops, and there are, in addition, many languages in which voiceless stops are not obligatorily aspirated. However, if there is aspiration, it *is* necessarily the case that the acoustic qualities of the aspiration will match those of the following vowel to at least some extent. Despite the phonetic facts, it might be claimed that /h/ patterns phonologically like consonants rather than vowels, in that it acts as syllable onset rather than syllable nucleus. However, it does not pattern completely as a consonant, given that it doesn't appear in coda position (whence the old argument as to whether [h] and [ng] be considered the same phoneme, due to their being in complementary distribution), and it doesn't appear in clusters, (unless, of course, [th] is analyzed as a phonological cluster of voiceless stop + /h/). And, just for grins, in Sound Pattern of English, _h_ and _?_ are [+sonorant, -consonantal, -vocalic]. In contrast, Ladefoged, in _Preliminaries to Linguistic Phonetics_ treats glottal as a place of articulation like dental, bilabial, etc. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 00:28:14 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: hypercorrection Ellen Johnson wrote on Feb 28: A couple more examples of hypercorrection in grammar, where it is much easier to say what is the "correct" form: Whom in subject position, "between you and I". The "between you and I" syndrome has been around for some time. Several weeks ago, I was reading an edition of the chronicles of Silas Claiborne Turnbo (b. 1844), an Ozarker from the Mo/Ark area between Harrison and Branson who wrote down stories from old-timers in the late 19th century. (I'd be astonished if any of you ever heard of him, other than perhaps Bethany Dumas, who did research in that region, but his papers weren't yet in the Springfield library when she was doing her interviewing.) Having had less than a year of formal education, he has lots of folk verb forms, but he never does the "between you and I" bit -- except in one very interesting place. When he is telling a story about a la-ti-da outsider (for Leslie Dunkling, la-di-da), he has him say something like "He wanted I and my wife to do xyz." There are other nuances, with Ozarker subtlety that Bethany would appreciate, that superior airs don't work well in the Ozarks; the outsider doesn't seem to catch on, but Turnbo doesn't make a fuss over it. I failed to mark the spot, but I'll be able to find it when I revisit the book later to do a review. Also, I recently heard the director of the composition program at some unnamed Midwestern university use a "between you and I" structure the other day. And almost every day I hear a news person say something like "He wouldn't say whom he thought should have responded to the call." And almost every day I see 'every day' written as 'everyday' even when it doesn't mean 'everyday'. English departments in colleges as well as high schools, nor journalism departments, just don't teach parsing anymore. Well, la ti da! Anymore they don't. The people who commit these "blunders," as they were called in the 1940s, may simply be using serial position rather than syntactic function as a cue and not consciously trying to be overly correct. That is, they're following an "interlanguage" grammar rule (inter - between standard and student language): "When saying two pronouns or an NP and a pronoun before any verb, use the 'I' or 'he' form." Is the individual speaker in situ being "correct" or using an internalized grammar? From a meta-linguistic point of view this is hypercorrection, but what is happening at the individual micro level at that specific moment? I don't think people monitor themselves all that closely. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 01:27:08 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply On Fri, 28 Feb 1997, Mark Mandel wrote: Odd as it seems, it is phonetically correct. How do you articulate AmE [t]? To end, release the tongue-alveolar seal and proceed to the next phone. How do you articulate AmE [h]? To end, start vibrating the vocal cords for the vowel. Voila: you have articulated a vowel, first voiceless and then voiced. Later the same day Terry Irons wrote: Am I the only one here puzzled by this explanation? I assume that phonetically a vowel is an unimpeded voiced flow of air and that phonologically it is the core of a syllable. I dont see how [h] falls into either of these categories. Very early the next morning, Donald M. Lance writes: I'm not puzzled by the explantion. I am disturbed by it. I don't think Mark was talking about aspirated vs unaspirated stops. He was drawing an analogy between the articulations of two consonants without regard to nonessential phonetic detail. (This part didn't distrub me.) A puzzle regarding voiceless stops is whether aspiration is the critical feature or whether voice-onset time (VOT) is -- that is, delay of voice onset, which then allows for the aspiration. Lots of languages have unaspirated voicelss consonants, such as Spanish or French, but Thai has phonemic aspirated and unaspirated voicelss consonants and consequently Thai unasp vl t doesn't sound like the Romance unasp vl t -- presence or absence of aspiration not being the only, perhaps not even the most important, feature. The lenis/fortis opposition operates differently in all these languages as well. Also laryngeal movement in the transition from consonant to vowel. Having had a number of Thai and Spanish- and French-speaking students who did constrastive analyses for my TESL classes, I've heard these consonants and speak from experience rather than from textbook definitions. Terry has pointed out what is crucial about vowels. They provide the energy peak for a syllable. /h/, /w/, /j/ don't. Likewise /r/ in syllable-initial position. They are consonants distributionally and articulatorily; they do not carry the load of syllabicity. I've had a number of Japanese students who've done (and demonstrated orally) contrastive analyses in which voiceless vowels occur. The city names Fukuoka and Kitakyushu have voiceless vowels in the first syllable because there are more than two syllables and the vowel is between voiceless consonants. These two voiceless vowels sound different because of lip and tongue configuration. Americans may think they hear a consonant cluster, but the Japanese speaker has a slight vowel between the consonants. Consider what happens to the /h/ before different vowels in English or 'jota' in Spanish. Before /i/, as in 'here', the /h/ may be realized as what is transcribed with c-cedilla, the "ichlaut" sound in German; before /u/ it's quite different. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:14:40 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: hypercorrection At 12:28 AM 3/1/97 -0600, Donald Lance wrote: That is, they're following an "interlanguage" grammar rule (inter - between standard and student language): "When saying two pronouns or an NP and a pronoun before any verb, use the 'I' or 'he' form." Actually, it seems to me that the basic rule is "With a sole pronoun, use the subject form in the subject position; use the object form elsewhere. When the pronoun is conjoined, do the opposite: use the object form in the subject position and the subject form in the object position." Interesting rule. The "hypercorrected" rule then becomes "When the pronoun is conjoined, always use the subject form." This *simpler* rule results in more reinforcement from English teachers, maybe because subjects are more frequent than objects. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 05:40:51 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Slang for a Saturday (1881 Stage Slang) This article is a show-stopper (in a way). I don't have the original, but it was copied in the Washington Post, 13 March 1881, pg. 3, col. 5: THE SLANG OF THE STAGE. How Actors and Actresses Distort the Vernacular. From the New York Tribune. The greater part of the slang used by actors is such as is familiar to every one. But they possess a large number of terms which are unknown to the outside world. The majority of these may be classed under the head of technicalities; but many of them are arbitrary terms whose origin and reason for existence are puzzles. Indeed, it is probable that the most perservering etymologist would find it an overwhelming task to trace the derivation of any word that may be classed as theatrical slang, with the exception, perhaps, of a few simple technical terms. The usage and special meaning of theatrical slang, however, are easy to ascertain, and are not without some interest and amusement. The general term used to designate an actor is "fakir," a word which originally meant magician. From it is coined the verb "fake," which means to imitate or sham. Few actors are willing to acknowledge that other actors are good; hence the slang of the theatre abounds in terms used to designate bad actors. Of these the most frequent are "duffer," "snide actor" and "bum actor." The "variety" player is looked down upon by the legitimate actor and is called a "ham." Actors are like sailors; they always believe the failure of a play is due to the presence of some unfortunate performer, and he is accordingly called a "Jonah." To all companies, actors, plays and theatres that are not up to the standard of excellence the epithets "queer," "tart" and "off color" are applied. Fair woman, when not an adept in art, is called a "dizzy dame." The society actor, whose triumphs are generally made in elaborate drawing-room "sets," is called a "dress-coat actor," in distinction from the actor of Shakespearean and other standard dramas, who belongs to the "legitimate," and is generally regarded as an "old-timer." The expressions used on the stage itself in reference to stage business are numerous. When anything is intentionally omitted from the text of a play it is said to be "cut." If an actor forgets his lines, and stops to think, he is said to be "stick." One who bellows his words at the top of his voice, and tears a passion to tatters, is a "spouter," a "ranter" or a "howler," and is believed to be in the habit of "eating scenes." If in addition to ranting he indulges in over-elaborate elocution he is a "mouther." A comedian who depends upon unnatural grimaces to evoke the laughter of the multitude is said to "mug." One who make a specialty of disguising his face in some hideous manner is said to "mug up." Sometimes an actor is displeased with the part allotted to him, and revenges himself upon the manager by "guying;" that is, by making fun of his role. "Guying" also applies to the act of introducing funny "business" into a part for the purpose of making other persons on the stage laugh. Some actors have a habit of interpolating expressions of their own into the text. One who does that "gags." These extempore phrases often please the audience, but as a general thing the other members of the company think they are simply "rot." The curtain is often called the "rag," and the actor's delight is to see this "rag" dropped at the end of a long performance. However, he seldom grumbles if his part be full of telling speeches, in which case it is "fat." The action on the stage is known as "business," which term is always shortened into "biz." If an actor forgets his lines the prompter has to assist him, and accordingly is requested to "throw the word." The actor always knows his turn to speak from the last three or four words of the speech before his, which is called the "cue." Often when it is found that a performance is dragging out its weary length to an intolerably lat hour, the actors are requested to "come down to cues;" in which case the unfortunate author,if he is present, is made miserable by hearing many of his pet speeches mangled almost beyond recognition. Almost every one who attends the theatre often will notice that an actor, after saying something very emphatic or astonishingly heroic, struts proudly down toward one corner of the stage. This signifactn movement is called "taking stage," and forms no litle part of the routine of stage business. The brotherhood of actors call themselves "the profession," in distinction from all other persons, who are simply "outsiders." Outsiders are generally looked upon as "gillies," a class of beings best described by the common slang term "fresh." The outsider who has any acquaintance with theatrical persons invariably "braces" them for passes. If he obtains them, becomes a "deadhead." A man who makes a business of getting into theatres for nothing, is known as a "beat." Some of these persons are very young men of wealth and of fashionable families, who think it a fine thing to be on familiar terms with some well-known actor. The actor usually permits the young man to play for suppers and wine, calls him a good fellow, and, in short, "plays him for a sucker;" which means, he gets all he can from his young friend and gives nothing in return. After all, however, the aim of the actor's existence is to "hog 'em;" that is to carry away his audience by the power and beauty of his art. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 20:20:31 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply Donald M. Lance wrote: Consider what happens to the /h/ before different vowels in English or 'jota' in Spanish. Before /i/, as in 'here', the /h/ may be realized as what is transcribed with c-cedilla, the "ichlaut" sound in German; before /u/ it's quite different. There's been a lot of talk about Japanese, so I'll just throw in this tidbit. The above phenomenon occurs in most dialects of (including standard) Japanese as well. So you have the sequence: /ha, hi, hu, he, ho/ realized phonetically as: [ha, ci, fu, he, ho] where "ci" represents the sound described above. (the "fu" is actually a voiceless bilabial fricative, written with that "PHI" thing) There is also, incidentally, a loss of contrast between /si/ and /hi/ in Tokyo where they are more likely to be phonetically (closer to) [ESH i], and in Osaka where they are closer to [c-cedilla i]. There are jokes about people from Tokyo saying "hio shi gari" for "shio hi gari" (gathering shellfish at low tide). Danny Long (who finally got to answer a question instead of ask one! . . . But come to think of it, nobody asked. damn.) (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 08:13:12 -0700 From: POLSKY ELLEN S Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU Subject: adverbs I have a question. Are adverbs dying in spoken English? Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:34:34 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: adverbs Are adverbs disappearing? As if!... (read: definiteLY not!) maybe they're just changing their shape. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:19:08 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: adverbs In a message dated 97-03-01 10:14:56 EST, Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S) writes: I have a question. Are adverbs dying in spoken English? Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU) Hopefully... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:09:57 -0600 From: Barbara Need nee1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: adverbs I have a question. Are adverbs dying in spoken English? Can you be more specific? What do you consider evidence that they ARE dying? Barbara Need University of Chicago--Linguistics ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 13:17:05 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: adverbs In a message dated 97-03-01 10:14:56 EST, Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU (POLSKY ELLEN S) writes: I have a question. Are adverbs dying in spoken English? Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU) Then Johnnie A. Renick Sat, 1 Mar 1997 11:19:08 wrote: Hopefully... Hardly. It's just that some people get a little freaky when they hear someone else using flat adverbs from nineteenth-century English or adjectival complements without adding -ly. Back in the beginning, not all "manner adverbs" had the suffix '-lic'. Some people just take a long time learning how the cognicenti now know God intended us to use the language. Some of the forms that look like manner adverbs were instrumental adjectives in earlier forms of the language (I feel bad. Dig deep into your pocket for a little change so I can have a cup of coffee"). One who feels badly does a bad job of feeling whatever one feels. How would one dig in a deep manner into one's pocket? We gotta root out all that old stuff in contemporary language. (Sorry about the diatribe.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:59:55 -0800 From: fukaya fukaya[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCF.USC.EDU Subject: No problemo! I noticed that there is a usage of attaching -o at the end of expressions or names, such as "No problemo!" and "Bob-o". What is this -o doing? How productive is this? Are there expressions other than the above that often go with this -o attachment? Teruhiko FUKAYA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:12:56 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: No problemo! Whatever the -o ending is doing today, it has been around for a long time. In the late 1960s one of my older colleagues (then in her 60s) addressed me as "dear-o"; "Daddy-o" was a popular slang term of address in the 1950s. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:16:52 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Between you and I Can anyone answer John's question? As I recall, Dennis Baron has written on this subject. --------------------- Forwarded message: From: singler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu (John V. Singler) To: amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu (Ron Butters) Date: 97-02-25 18:16:39 EST Hi Ron, My students are looking at pronoun selection in coordinate NP's in English, specifically in object cases. Are you aware of any work in American Speech or elsewhere on the shift from objective to nominative in pronoun selection in American English? Hope you're well. Yours, John ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// / John Singler singler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Department of Linguistics phone: 212-998-7959 New York University fax: 212-995-4707 719 Broadway, #501 New York, NY 10003 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:16:58 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: indefinite pronouns For more than 30 years, I have said and written and copyedited only that form. When resuming "anyone" and "everyone," there is almost always not even a pre-' scriptive constraint .against using "they" As George Jochnowitz observed in AMERICAN SPEECH a number of years ago, nobody ever asks "*Everybody likes pizza, doesn't he or she?"--let alone "*Everyone likes pizza, doesn't one?" ONLY " . . . don't they?" is "correct." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:16:39 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: No problemo! ron butters said: Whatever the -o ending is doing today, it has been around for a long time. In the late 1960s one of my older colleagues (then in her 60s) addressed me as "dear-o"; "Daddy-o" was a popular slang term of address in the 1950s. but the -o in "no problemo" is a different thing. it's spanish, which contributes a lot of slang to american english, such as women affectionately addressing each other as "chica", using "mucho" as an intensifier, etc. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 12:23:17 -0800 From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! Lynne: but the -o in "no problemo" is a different thing. it's spanish, which contributes a lot of slang to american english... alas, no. spanish would be problemA (which is masculine gender, despite its -a, because it's a greek-derived word in -ma). "no problemo" is mock-spanish. still probably not the same thing as "daddy-o" etc., but not spanish. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:43:01 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: No problemo! arnold said: alas, no. spanish would be problemA (which is masculine gender, despite its -a, because it's a greek-derived word in -ma). "no problemo" is mock-spanish. still probably not the same thing as "daddy-o" etc., but not spanish. you're right. is the british tabloid nickname for michael jackson (jacko--which one is starting to see in the u.s. as well) part of this phenomenon, or is it just because it rhymes with "wacko"? i'm trying to think if -o is used generally in brit english as well. lynne, a wacko who's moving to waco --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 15:43:38 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: no problemo! Just what I was going to say. The Spanish expression is 'no problema' and 'problema' is a masculine noun. But I'd also assumed that the once hipspeak 'daddy-o' and 'no problemo' were both Spanglo. Maggie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Arnold Zwicky wrote: Lynne: but the -o in "no problemo" is a different thing. it's spanish, which contributes a lot of slang to american english... alas, no. spanish would be problemA (which is masculine gender, despite its -a, because it's a greek-derived word in -ma). "no problemo" is mock-spanish. still probably not the same thing as "daddy-o" etc., but not spanish. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:08:02 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! Since I associate "Daddy-o" with whats-his-nose on the show before Gilligan's Island (sorry, I'm blanking on lots of refs today,) I've got to ask: Was "Daddy-o" every actually used without self-consciousness or parody? (Woulds n't Daddy-o be slang on slang?) beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:13:30 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: no problemo! `No problemo' is faux Spanglish, nu? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:36:43 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: might could DARE III treats multiple modals at the entry for "may." We leaned heavily on the work done by Michael Montgomery and Margaret Mishoe, published in 1994 American Speech 69.3-29. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 17:07:51 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! I am relatively sure that "daddy-o" was used by James Dean, Sal Mineo, and friends in the 1957 movie, "Rebel Without a Cause", which would pre-date Maynard G. Krebs in "Dobie Gillis". The movie date might have been even earlier. My copy of the screenplay is at school. I will check on Monday. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:41:50 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply Professor Daniel Long of Osaka, Japan, wrote to me privately at 20:20:31 +0900 on Sat, 1 Mar 1997 And I'm re-posting to ads-l: /ha, hi, hu, he, ho/ realized phonetically as: [ha, ci, fu, he, ho] where "ci" represents the sound described [in my posting as 'ichlaut']. (the "fu" is actually a voiceless bilabial fricative, written with that "PHI" thing) There is also, incidentally, a loss of contrast between /si/ and /hi/ in Tokyo where they are more likely to be phonetically (closer to) [ESH i], and in Osaka where they are closer to [c-cedilla i]. There are jokes about people from Tokyo saying "hio shi gari" for "shio hi gari" (gathering shellfish at low tide). Danny Long (who finally got to answer a question instead of ask one! . . . But come to think of it, nobody asked. damn.) Ask a Japanese student to do a little contrastive analysis and these sets of CV sequences will come tumbling out the first thing. They're very interesting. The /hu/ gets transliterated as 'fu' in European languages, as in Mt. Fuji. What's the translation of the other half of the Japanese joke re /hi/ - /si/? Danny, I DID indirectly ask you to respond. I hoped you would, because you know about Japanese. In the Saar and Lorraine dialects of German, the Ichlaut is pronounced with the esch consonant and is a feature that is featured in stereotyped Saarlaendisch. What can you add about the voiceless vowels that Terry Irons asked about? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 10:18:31 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: hypercorrection At 12:28 AM 3/1/97 -0600, Donald Lance wrote: That is, they're following an "interlanguage" grammar rule (inter - between standard and student language): "When saying two pronouns or an NP and a pronoun before any verb, use the 'I' or 'he' form." At 05:14:40 Sat, 1 Mar 1997 David Johns of Waycross GA wrote: Actually, it seems to me that the basic rule is "With a sole pronoun, use the subject form in the subject position; use the object form elsewhere. When the pronoun is conjoined, do the opposite: use the object form in the subject position and the subject form in the object position." Interesting rule. The "hypercorrected" rule then becomes "When the pronoun is conjoined, always use the subject form." This *simpler* rule results in more reinforcement from English teachers, maybe because subjects are more frequent than objects. Professor Johns has outlined the set of rules that I was in too much of a hurry to reconstruct. Thanks. May be even more complex than these rules, however. Me seemeth the dialect that uses this "between you and I" rule also has frequent use of deferential reflexives (use of reflexive pronoun in object position to suggest deference, "As for myself,..."). Implicational relationships between the two rules (Christian, Wolfram, Dube. Variation and Change in Geographically Isolated Communities: Appalachian and Ozark English. PADS 74 (1988) 96-105), however, would be directional. That is, those who have the "between you and I" rule have a strong tendency (not 100%, but statistically signifiant) to have the deferential reflexivization rule, but not vice versa. Lots of people use deferential reflexivization but otherwise have "perfectly normal" pronoun use ("perfectly normal" = approved by Miss Fidditch). Deferential reflexives are very common in British English. Miss Fidditch herself might deferentially avoid "I" or "me" on occasion. Frequency of subjects vs objects may not be the determining factor. The "whom ... was" rule doesn't use INfrequency of objects to favor object-case marking. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 18:33:28 -0600 From: Peter Daniels pdaniels[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PRESS-GOPHER.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: indefinite pronouns No, it's not correct, some people don't like pizza. (Fieldworkers tell us that informants *always* respond to the content of the sentence, not the form; likewise also toddlers learning to talk simply never notice the intent of corrections.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 13:13:51 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.OR.JP Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply Donald M. Lance wrote: There are jokes about people from Tokyo saying "hio shi gari" for "shio hi gari" (gathering shellfish at low tide). What's the translation of the other half of the Japanese joke re /hi/ - /si/? Actually, the "other half" doesn't really come out as meaning anything. You might could COME UP with some meanings to match these sounds, but there's no pat answer to the "joke". (THIS is a grammatically correct usage of double modals!) So maybe "joke" was too strong a word. It's more like a stereotypical phrase to poke fun at "downtown" (shitamachi) Tokyo speakers. What can you add about the voiceless vowels that Terry Irons asked about? I certainly agree with the way Terry explained it. The devoiced vowels ARE definitely vowels. Look at the example with *ki*. You can definitely tell that speakers are saying /ki/ and not /ku/, so it is not a case of the vowel being dropped. If this is hard to imagine, then just WHISPER the syllables "ki" and "ku" to yourself. Hear the difference? You just made devoiced vowels! That vowel devoicing in CVC sequences differs from consonant clusters has already been mentioned. The fact that (many dialects of) Japanese perceive phonological units as morae rather than syllables is significant. Thus *s'ki* 'liking something' is pronounced and perceived as two equally-long time units; different from English "ski". From a DIALECTOLOGSIST'S standpoint, there is a lot of interesting regional variation here. Vowel devoicing basically only occurs with the two high vowels (devoicing of other vowels is reported, but is very rare; limited to certain lexical items in certain dialects), when sandwiched between voiceless consonants. It's more noticeable in some dialects (like Tokyo) than in others (like Kyoto). In most dialects, (exceptions on Noto Peninsula, etc.) devoicing is limited to every OTHER syllable, so you get *k'shi sh'ki k'ki* 'a Kishi-type machine'. It's related to the pitch accent of words (which itself differs greatly among regional dialects). . . DInnIs had a grad student working on this, I believe. Where is she? Where is DInnIs? Thanks to Donald Lance for reposting my letter. I called myself posting it to the list, but I guess I hit the wrong button somewhere. Danny Long (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1997 to 1 Mar 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Mar 1997 to 2 Mar 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 325 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. No problemo, daddy-o 2. No problemo! 3. More Naples, more pizza 4. "See Naples and Die" 5. No problemo isn't fully Spanish 6. Everybody uses tag questions, don't we? 7. NPR newscast (2) 8. Ebonics: Yet another last word 9. I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Mar 1997 22:55:39 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo, daddy-o On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Ron Butters wrote: Whatever the -o ending is doing today, it has been around for a long time. In the late 1960s one of my older colleagues (then in her 60s) addressed me as "dear-o"; "Daddy-o" was a popular slang term of address in the 1950s. Here in the Spanish-tempered Southwest, nearly all anglos (according to the Nevada Language Survey) say "no problema." Those we might consider unregenerate rednecks who do these things simply because the things ARE irritating, are apt to say "no problemo," as well as transforming the initial vowel in "adios" to asc, and stressing it. Those of hispanic persuasion tend to say "no provlem." The /v/ is a very slight labiodental fricative. And the "o" is /o/. As Ron says, in the '50s "daddy-o" was so common that I can attest to its being common to teenagers of the time (1954) as "dude" five years ago. I was trying to learn a folk song (I think Irish) on my GIT-tar. I called the song "Whiskey in a Jar," though I don't think that is the title. At any rate, I learned the line "what-ho, the daddy-o, there's whiskey in the jar." All my hip (or was it hep) friends concurred with what we were hearing on the 45 rpm record (lo-fi). Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:28:29 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! Alas, Tom Clark is right. Us old-timers can remember a non-tongue-in-cheek 'daddy-o' from before even James Dean. Arnold is also correct to point out that 'problemo' is 'mock' Spanish (since it incorrectly marks the gender), but I am surprised no responses to this original query have mentioned Jane Hill's (Anthropology, U. of Arizona) work on 'Junk Spanish.' Jane has a magnificent collection of such items (including advertising and other popular culture sources), and she gave a presentation on these data in several places a few years ago. I lost track of whether it was published or not. Anyone seriously intersted in the topic (and her interpretation of the generally denigrating character of such usage) should get in touch with her. DInIs Lynne: but the -o in "no problemo" is a different thing. it's spanish, which contributes a lot of slang to american english... alas, no. spanish would be problemA (which is masculine gender, despite its -a, because it's a greek-derived word in -ma). "no problemo" is mock-spanish. still probably not the same thing as "daddy-o" etc., but not spanish. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 09:50:41 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: More Naples, more pizza NAPLES: For some reason, I thought this was going to be easy. The earliest "See Naples and Die" is not 1861. I checked the Naples guidebooks, and "Vedi Napoli e po mori" is in: Description of the View Of Naples and Surrounding Scenery, Henry Aston Barker and I. Burford's Panorama, Strand, London, 1821. Naples, the Beauties of its Bay, Fredonicus, pseud., NY, 1848. Neither cites an author or reference. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------- PIZZA: Everyone likes pizza. Last September, around the time of the San Gennaro festival, I posted a 1905 article on pizza and some stuff regarding the first pizzeria in New York City. I shamed OED for its first pizza citation, which was 1935!! This is from Sketches of Naples by Alexandre Dumas, trans. by A. Roland, Philadelphia, 1845, pp. 29-30: As to his food, this is more easy to describe; for, although the lazzarone belongs to the species omnivora, he, generally, eats by two things: the _pizza_ and the _cocomero_ or watermelon. The impression has gone out into the world, that the lazzarone lives upon macaroni; this is a great mistake, which it is time to correct. The macaroni is, it is true, a native of Naples; but, at the present time, it is an European dish, which has traveled, like civilization, and which, like civilization, finds itself very far from its cradle. The macaroni, moreover, cost two sous a pound; which renders it inaccessible to the purse of the lazzarone; except upon Sundays and holidays. At all other times the lazzarone eats, as we have said, the pizza and the cocomero; the cocomero in summer, the pizza in winter. A pizza of two farthings suffices for one person, a pizza of two sous is enough to satisfy a whole family. At first sight, the pizza appears to be a simple dish, upon examination it proves to be compound. The pizza is prepared with bacon, with lard, with cheese, with tomatas, with fish. It is the gastronomic thermometer of the market. The price of the pizza rises and falls according to the rate of the ingredients just designated; according to the abundance or scarcity of the year. When the fish-pizza sells at half a grain, the fishing has been godd; when the oil-pizza sells at a grain, the yield of olives has been bad. The rate at which the pizza sells is, also, influenced by the greater or less degree of freshness; it will be easily understood that yesterday's pizza will not bring the same price as to-day's. For small purses, they have the pizza of a week old, which, if not agreeably, very advantageously, supplies the place of the sea-biscuit. The pizza as we have said is the food of winter. On the first of May the pizza gives place to the cocomero..... All of which, I guess, is better than a Three Musketeers bar. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:32:00 EST From: PCCS Research Staff research[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BROOKLYN.CUNY.EDU Subject: "See Naples and Die" A lead for Barry Popik on the origins of this phrase's popularity comes from H.V. Morton's book, "A Traveller in Southern Italy" (first published in 1969). Section 7 of Chapter 7 begins: "The Hamilton period in Naples was a brief thirty-five years of enchantment during which 'Vedi Napoli e poi muori' - 'See Naples and die' - was substituted for the more exciting promise of an earlier generation, 'Ecce Roma!'. A brilliant and friendly royal court ruled by an Italian version of Squire Western, together with delightful palaces which could be rented with gilt furniture and beguiling servants, made Naples an attractive city for the rich and well-born." The enchanted years Morton refers to are 1764 to 1799. Sir William Hamilton was a British ambassador to the court of Naples perhaps best known as the husband of Lady Emma Hamilton, mistress of Lord Nelson. Hamilton was also known for his interest in volcanoes and archaeology. He made a collection of antiquities from Pompeii which were then sold to the British Museum. Morton goes on to describe the marvelous detachment from the troubles of the world possible in Naples at that time: "... and reading the diaries and letters written in Naples from 1764 to 1799, one find no mention of the outside world, no murmur of Bunker's Hill, no angry shouts from the Gordon Rioters, even accounts of the Bastille were not allowed to interfere with dinner parties. Nevertheless, it was the guillotine that at last concluded the Neapolitan Elysium and with the execution of the French queen, the happy dream came to an end. Goethe, Mrs. Piozzi, William Beckford, and many more, have described how enchanting it was while it lasted." Hamilton's book was "Observations on Mount Vesuvius, etc. (1772). Goethe described his time in Italy from 1786 -88 in "Italienische Reise" (Italian Travels) written in 1816. Patricia Kuhlman New York City research[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]brooklyn.cuny.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:21:00 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: No problemo isn't fully Spanish LM says, "but the -o in 'no problemo' is a different thing. it's spanish" actually, the -o in "problemo" can't very well be Spanish, since the Spanish word is "problema"! Of course, one might hypothesize that the -o in "problemo" is mistaken Spanish--but in that case why couldn't the -o in "Daddy-o" and "dear-o" be "Spanish" too? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 18:41:13 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Everybody uses tag questions, don't we? PDaniels writes: No, it's not correct, some people don't like pizza. (Fieldworkers tell us that informants *always* respond to the content of the sentence, not the form; likewise also toddlers learning to talk simply never notice the intent of corrections.) Well, okay then, how about: **Everybody hates a wise-ass, doesn't one? *Everybody hates a wise-ass, doesn't he or she? :-) Everybody hates a wise-ass, don't they? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 20:32:06 -0500 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: NPR newscast I'm still somewhat bemused by the wording of an NPR news broadcast last Friday. The newscaster was describing some legislation that Congress might or might not pass; then he said, "If they do, then they will be able to still deficit spend." Is "deficit spend" a new verb? Are there others like it? It's usually adverbs that get into verb phrases, but "deficit" certainly isn't an adverb. Virginia Virginia Clark Professsor Emerita of English University of Vermont Burlington, VT 05405 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 21:42:06 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: NPR newscast Virginia Clark writes, I'm still somewhat bemused by the wording of an NPR news broadcast last Friday. The newscaster was describing some legislation that Congress might or might not pass; then he said, "If they do, then they will be able to still deficit spend." Is "deficit spend" a new verb? Are there others like it? It's usually adverbs that get into verb phrases, but "deficit" certainly isn't an adverb. The pattern in which the compound verb "deficit spend" participates is a fairly productive one, if the results may seem nonce formations at first; the key is back-formation from a nominal compound, as in to baby-sit to faith-heal to stage-manage to shoplift to sight-see In each case, the agentive nominal predates and "sponsors" the deagentive verb, which has a sense along the lines of "to do what an X-Yer does". In the NPR coinage, then, to deficit spend is to do what a deficit spender does; deficit is no more an adverb here than are "baby", "faith", "stage", etc. in the above. An innovative instance of this process provided by my own (then) 4-year-old son, uttered while advancing menacingly, implement in hand: "I'm going to egg-beat you!" --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 21:59:52 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Ebonics: Yet another last word For those collecting treatments in the popular press, the New York Times in yesterday's edition (March 1, p. 10), carried a fairly comprehensive article by Peter Applebome that traces the roots of the Oakland move to the work of a rather unconventional "linguist" named Dr. Ernie Smith. Smith really does seem to be quite loony; let me just cite the following as an instance of his argumentation. (This, of course, assumes that Applebome cites Smith correctly.) Among other things, he hailed Oakland's schools for rejecting "the white supremacist double standard" that classifies English as language but not ebonics, ridiculed blacks who spoke "king's English"--"You're not speaking English just because you learned how to mimic old Massa and Missus Ann"--and said that since fossils of the oldest known human so far have been found in Africa, English, if anything, is a dialect of African. "If we were on the globe first, how can our language be based on European languages?" he asked. Much of the article does go through the arguments sensibly enough, citing McWhorter, Baugh, and several other sane linguists, African-American and not, along with the problems in defining "dialect" and "standard", and it mentions the LSA statement that black English is systematic and rule-governed, so if fair-minded readers don't associate "linguists" with Dr. Ernie Smith, the article might do more good than harm. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:57:29 -0500 From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, Thanks To Don Lance for the information about the final vowel in Missouri. Here's the data from the Pacific Northwest (LAPNW) records. **schwa = 13 **dotted i (high front tense vowel) = 11 ** dotted i with one dot for length = 13 ** barred dotted i = 6 **barred dotted i with one dot for length **barred small capital I = 1 which also occurred with schwa followed by a question mark by the fieldworker David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA David_Carlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spfldcol.edu Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Mar 1997 to 2 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Mar 1997 to 3 Mar 1997 There are 48 messages totalling 1481 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. missouri/missouria and Rick Trevino, C&W singer 2. /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply (3) 3. I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance 4. No problemo! (2) 5. No problemo, daddy-o -Reply 6. "show stopper" 7. More on -O (2) 8. No problemo! Daddy-O! 9. Homely (3) 10. No problemo (9) 11. See Naples and die 12. No problemo, daddy-o (2) 13. Homely teepeeing & soaping 14. Homely -Reply 15. No problemo -Reply 16. deficit-spend (footnote) 17. -ies Ending (5) 18. Supreme Court Official English Decision 19. help: address for fling, please (2) 20. official lg (3) 21. I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, 22. /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply -Reply 23. Olla podrida 24. No subject given 25. Clones; Naples; Daddy-O; My Dad 26. it's ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:11:23 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: missouri/missouria and Rick Trevino, C&W singer Yesterday, on one of the radio weekly "country music countdown", during which C&W singers call up in between songs and "talk" with the hosts, the hosts got the following call from Rick Trevino, who had the number one song last week. Caller: Hey Guys! Host/DJ: Hey! Who is this? Caller: Rick [trEviny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. How's it goin? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:39:38 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply Well, it looks as if I made a tactical error in choosing /t/ as a supraglottal consonant to describe in parallel with /h/, because I inadvertently misled Terry to infer that I was bringing the aspiration of syllable-initial AmE /t/ into the picture. But Donald is "disturbed" by my explanation, and I'm not sure why. Donald? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:42:45 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, -Reply Thanks! Now, THIS I can put together with the earlier messages for enlightenment. Donald M. Lance engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 0301.0017 Thanks, Mark Mandel. I wondered how the spaces would survive cyberspace and convolutions of fiberoptics going in and out of dossed apples and blue unixes. I composed the table in Eudora and assumed it was friendly with whatever everyone else was using. Sorry about my naivete. I'll try something else: [...] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 08:43:17 CST From: mpicone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! On Sat, 1 Mar 1997 16:08:02 EST said: Since I associate "Daddy-o" with whats-his-nose on the show before Gilligan's Island (sorry, I'm blanking on lots of refs today,) I've got to ask: Was "Daddy-o" every actually used without self-consciousness or parody? beth simon The show was The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis or something like that and Bob Denver played Maynard, a beatnik type who used expressions like Daddy-o, presumably because there is some real connection to the jargon of the beat generation. The expression is used frequenty in West Side Story as well. The "no problemo" is probably hypercorrective Spanish in the way that it used by many English speakers, the same way Americans almost invariably hypercorrect Fontainebleau to *Fontainebleu to make it sound more French. Mike Picone University of Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:59:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: No problemo, daddy-o -Reply The song Thomas Clark was learning was what I know as "Kilgarry Mountain", or "Gilgarry Mountain", or doubtless forty-'leven other variants; I learned the line in question as "Whack fal the daddy, oh, there's whiskey in the jar". (Whiskey in the jar turns up in a lot of Irish song choruses, as do nonsense words. I've always wondered (but never investigated) whether the latter go back to Gaelic, misheard and distorted through layers of anglophone singers.) But back to the subject: I don't think this "daddy o" has anything to do with the "Daddy-o" vocative that comes from hipster talk. Thomas L. Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU 0302.0155 As Ron says, in the '50s "daddy-o" was so common that I can attest to its being common to teenagers of the time (1954) as "dude" five years ago. I was trying to learn a folk song (I think Irish) on my GIT-tar. I called the song "Whiskey in a Jar," though I don't think that is the title. At any rate, I learned the line "what-ho, the daddy-o, there's whiskey in the jar." All my hip (or was it hep) friends concurred with what we were hearing on the 45 rpm record (lo-fi). Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 10:15:26 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "show stopper" On Friday I posted: ------------ "Show stopper" has a different use in filk [sic] music, the musical tradition that arises out of the community of fantasy and science fiction* fans. It refers to a short song, usually just one stanza or chorus and typically a parody (or at least to a well- known tune), that amounts to a single joke and (ideally) breaks up the room with laughter. * (Please, not "sci-fi"!) ------------ ... and forwarded it to a more experienced fellow filker, Gary McGath, for confirmation. Here is the relevant portion of his reply, quoted by permission: ============ The only qualification I'd make is that a show-stopper is often less than a complete verse. E.g.: Off we go into the wild blue yonder, Flying high into the sun ... (sizzle) (To "The Exodus Song") There are some things man was not meant to know, Some songs man was not meant to sing. And this is one of them. In the mundane* world of music, "Be Kind To Your Web-Footed Friends" could be considered a show-stopper. I think "sci-fi" fans can be included as well, using the term as a rough synonym for "space opera."** ============ [definitions -- MAM] * mundane: not part of the sf subculture ** space opera: Think of "Star Wars". Good guys and bad guys, shootouts, chases, battles, and lots of special effects (whether on screen, or on the page and in the theater of the mind), but in space rather than on the dusty plains or the high seas or over France and Belgium. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:37:56 CDT From: Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: More on -O There are a great many examples of the use of final -o in Peter Tamony's collection. It seems from the evidence to have been very prolific in sources like Variety magazine and Walter Winchell colums during the 1930s with terms such as swingo, jambo, wrongo, floppo, whamo, socko, pinko, hambo, etc. Earlier than that, cartoonist T. A. Dorgan used it prolifically in terms like pippo, kiddo, righto, and in fictional[?] product names like washo, smoko, polisho, etc. I imagine Leonard Zwilling's work on TAD would be useful in this area. In Mencken's The American Language [see 3rd edition, 1926, p. 110] he speaks of the use of "intensifying suffixes" originating with the Irish. For some early examples you might consider rotto, meaning rot gut drink, recorded in Barrere and Leland in 1889; or Pierce Egan, Life in London, 1821, which recorded two lines of verse: "The monkey "Jacco", All the crack O!" Tamony notes these verse lines in Hotten's edition of 1869, p. 160. Randy Roberts University of Missouri-Columbia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Mar 1997 23:48:48 -0600 From: "E.S. McNair" esmcnair[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! Daddy-O! At 04:08 PM 3/1/97 EST, you wrote: Since I associate "Daddy-o" with whats-his-nose on the show before Gilligan's Island (sorry, I'm blanking on lots of refs today,) I've got to ask: Was "Daddy-o" every actually used without self-consciousness or parody? (Woulds n't Daddy-o be slang on slang?) beth simon The expression,"daddy-o", was in use long before Maynard G. Krebs used it in "The Many Loves of Doby Gilis", a popular sit-com that ran from '59 to '63 on CBS. I use it all the time, as do many. David McNair ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:28:02 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Homely 1895 Westm. Gaz. 31 Jan. 3/2, I may tell you we are all homely girls. We don't want any la-di-da members. "What does the word "homely" mean to Brits?" In this instance I think it meant "unpretentious." When I first saw a reference to "a homely woman" many years ago I assumed that it meant a woman who was domesticated. I was very surprised to find that in American English it can mean "ugly." (Equally surprised to learn now that American children sometimes wrap houses in toilet paper. British kids would think this a great idea.) But "homely" has long meant "plain," and that word can obviously mean of plain appearance as well as unpretentious in speech and behaviour. I have never heard "homey" used in Britain, though I would assume it to mean "cosy" if it occurred. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:28:00 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: No problemo "i'm trying to think if -o is used generally in brit english as well." Where vocatives are concerned, the answer is a guarded yes. Football players still instinctively address the linesman as lino; -o can still be added to a name, as in Johno, Jacko. Boyo used to be associated with Welsh speakers and maybe still is. Kiddo was heard for a while in the sixties, along with daddyo. Fatso might still be used of someone considered to be overweight. It must be a coincidence, but O was formerly used in English, wasn't it, in imitation of Latin, as a kind of prefix marking a vocative: `Winking away a tear, O Amy,' says a character in _The Heir of Redclyffe- by Charlotte M. Young. This was also Shakespearean usage - hence `O Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?' Just as well. `Romeo-o, Romeo-o, wherefore art thou Romeo?' would not have had the same ring. Surely the -o added to "no problem" (presumably itself a loan-translation from German) just picks up on the "o'" of "No" and makes a satisfying little rhyme? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:27:53 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: See Naples and die Nigel Rees _Dictionary of Phrase and Allusion_ quotes Goethe's _Italian Journey_ 3 March 1787: "As they say here, vedi Napoli e poi muori!" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:52:09 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: No problemo, daddy-o Using an -o ending makes a word sound Spanish to Eng. speakers and has for centuries, no matter whether masculine or feminine in Sp. Armada was armado in Early Mod. English, bastinado (a torture where you got beaten with a rod) fr. Sp. bastinada, ambuscado, etc. I think the OED has a section on this under -ado. Dale Coye The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:00:59 -0500 From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET Subject: Re: Homely teepeeing & soaping Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM wrote: I was very [snip] surprised to learn now that American children sometimes wrap houses in toilet paper. British kids would think this a great idea... This is largely (exclusively?) a Halloween "Trick" (as in "Trick or Treat"), and I believe it is widespread in America. It's been going on for at least 40 years. When I was growing up it was often accompanied by dumping confetti on a family's lawn and sometimes soaping their windows. David W. Donnnell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:05:25 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Homely Leslie writes: But "homely" has long meant "plain," and that word can obviously mean of plain appearance as well as unpretentious in speech and behaviour. It's not clear from your context, but I think I'm right in saying that describing someone's face as plain in British English generally means not good-looking, or even ugly. I think this adj. is never used in American English to describe a face, and I remember when I first saw it in a British text I thought it was value-neutral, not pretty, not ugly. 'Plain appearance' I associate with Plainclothes of some denominations- nothing fancy or even a 'uniform' of black or gray clothes. Dale Coye Princeton NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 09:58:03 -0800 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo! Daddy-o was certainly current before "Dobie Gillis" which began, I think, in 1959. A movie titled "Daddy-o" was released that same year and was deservedly forgotten until it was resurrected by "Mystery Science Theater 3000." I don't know if it was the worst movie ever made, but it has got to be in the running. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Sat, 1 Mar 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: I am relatively sure that "daddy-o" was used by James Dean, Sal Mineo, and friends in the 1957 movie, "Rebel Without a Cause", which would pre-date Maynard G. Krebs in "Dobie Gillis". The movie date might have been even earlier. My copy of the screenplay is at school. I will check on Monday. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:07:47 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Homely -Reply Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 0303.1228 (Equally surprised to learn now that American children sometimes wrap houses in toilet paper. British kids would think this a great idea.) Does "toilet paper" mean the same thing on both sides of the water? In the US it is the stuff used for personal cleanliness after defecation, and comes in rolls. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:00:28 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: No problemo -Reply Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 0303.1228 Surely the -o added to "no problem" (presumably itself a loan-translation from German) just picks up on the "o'" of "No" and makes a satisfying little rhyme? I don't think so. They don't rhyme to me because the stress is different: any rhyme would have to rhyme on the stressed syllable of each word, and those are /ow/ and /em/. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:45:31 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: deficit-spend (footnote) I hadn't meant to imply that 'deficit spend' as a back-formed verb is a nonce creation by the NPR reporter Virginia Clark cited. In fact, it struck me as familiar, so I wasn't TOO surprised when I checked Nexis and discovered well over 300 citations of this verb, dating back to this familiar-appearing excerpt from the 1976 Republican Party Platform: ... direct responsibility of a spendthrift, Democrat-controlled Congress has been unwilling to discipline itself to live within our means. The temptation to spend and deficit-spend for political reasons has simply been too great for most of our elected politicians to resist. Some are a bit more dated than others, e.g. this one from 1984: ... weak as a kitten on the ropes economically. Nothing would please the technocrats and militarists in the Kremlin better than to have the United deficit-spend itself into defenselessness. Many, many citations from the 1980's about states whose constitutions don't let them deficit-spend, governors claiming they won't deficit spend, and so on. Not elegant, perhaps, but not new. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:31:45 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Could someone who speaks Spanish better than me tell us whether this is in fact an idiomatic phrase akin to Eng "no problem", and if so, why it isn't "ningun problema", which is the way I probably would have translated it. The mention of German, which would use kein rather than nein made me wonder about this. If it is a loan translation from German dressed up as a Spanish borrowing, this is interesting, as is the re-translation of the phrase into pseudo-Swahili "hakuna matata", pronounced, to the chagrin of my friend Lioba, with the last /t/ flapped. Ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu p.s. a cultural note: we didn't wrap the houses in toilet paper, rather we threw the rolls into the branches of trees so it would hang down and blow in the breeze like streamers, a rather lovely decoration. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:24:12 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: -ies Ending Reading a sailing magazine from Britain, I came across the word "foulies" which refers to oilskins or apparel worn during nasty weather. I am also familiar with "Wellies" for Wellington boots. I have vague feeling that the -ies ending may be more practiced in Britain than Stateside. Any thoughts? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:47:18 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: -ies Ending Reading a sailing magazine from Britain, I came across the word "foulies" which refers to oilskins or apparel worn during nasty weather. I am also familiar with "Wellies" for Wellington boots. then there's "walkies!" when i see -ies in south african english, i usually attribute it to afrikaans influence (not the case in brit english, i know)--for example, the university of pretoria's nickname is 'tuks' (i don't know why) and it's called 'tukkies'--but that's an afrikaans-medium university. then we have takkies for sneakers and all sorts of other -ie words that are borrowings from afrikaans. note that like "wellies", "takkies" come in pairs, so that seems to be why the 's' is there--not that -ies is a diminutive ending, but that -ie is diminutive and -s is plural. i think the 'foulies' is probably also plural--it's a set of clothes, right? but adding -s to singular nouns, especially names, is a feature of brit english that carries over into south african english. all the examples i can think of are clippings + s. so, for example, i'm at university of the witwatersrand (not 'witswatersrand' as so many of my american correspondents would have it!). the nickname of the place is "wits"--so, clip it to the first syllable and add an 's'. other examples are "durbs" (city of durban) and "gabs" (city of gaborone, botswana). they seem to like to do it with things that clip so as to be one syllable things with stops at the end. trying to think of a personal name i've heard it with, but can't think of any i've definitely heard. rather the reverse of the -ies phenomenon seems to be the -sie/-sy diminutive--as in flopsy and mopsy. i'm quite sure i've been called lynnesie-wynnesie, but god knows in what dialect. lynnes --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 13:54:51 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Supreme Court Official English Decision This morning the supreme court issued the following opinion. Here is the syllabus. The complete opinion is available at http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/95-974.ZO.html Dennis ______ SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES Syllabus ARIZONANS FOR OFFICIAL ENGLISH et al. v. ARIZONA et al. certiorari to the united states court of appeals for the ninth circuit No. 95-974. Argued December 4, 1996 -- Decided March 3, 1997 Maria Kelly F. Yniguez, an Arizona state employee at the time, sued the State and its Governor, Attorney General, and Director of the Department of Administration under 42 U.S.C. =A7 1983 alleging that State Constitution Article XXVIII--ke= y provisions of which declare English "the official language of the State," require the State to "act in English and in no other language," and authorize state residents and businesses "to bring [state court] suit[s] to enforce th[e] Article"--violated, inter alia, the Free Speech Clause of the First Amendment. Yniguez used both English and Spanish in her work and feared that Article XXVIII, if read broadly, would require her to face discharge or other discipline if she did not refrain from speaking Spanish while serving the State. She requested injunctive and declaratory relief, counsel fees, and "all other relief that the Court deems just and proper." During the early phases of the suit, the State Attorney General released an Opinion expressing his view that Article XXVIII is constitutional in that, although it requires the expression of "official acts" in English, it allows government employees to use other languages to facilitate the delivery of governmental services. The Federal District Court heard testimony and, among its rulings, determined that only the Governor, in her official capacity, was a proper defendant. The court, at the same time, dismissed the State because of its Eleventh Amendment immunity, the State Attorney General because he had no authority to enforce Article XXVIII against state employees, and the Director because there was no showing that she had undertaken or threatened any action adverse to Yniguez; rejected the Attorney General's interpretation of the Article on the ground that it conflicted with the measure's plain language; declaredthe Article fatally overbroad after reading it to impose a sweeping ban on the use of any language other than English by all of Arizona officialdom; and declined to allow the Arizona courts the initial opportunity to determine the scope of Article XXVIII. Following the Governor's announcement that she would not appeal, the District Court denied the State Attorney General's request to certify the pivotal state law question--the Article's correct construction--to the Arizona Supreme Court. The District Court also denied the State Attorney General's motion to intervene on behalf of the State, under 28 U.S.C. =A7 2403(b), to contest on appeal the court's holding that the Article is unconstitutional. In addition, the court denied the motion of newcomers Arizonans for Official English Committee (AOE) and its Chairman Park, sponsors of the ballot initiative that became Article XXVIII, to intervene to support the Article's constitutionality. The day after AOE, Park, and the State Attorney General filed their notices of appeal, Yniguez resigned from state employment to accept a job in the private sector. The Ninth Circuit then concluded that AOE and Park met standing requirements under Article III of the Federal Constitution and could proceed as party appellants, and that the Attorney General, having successfully obtained dismissal below, could not reenter as a party, but could present an argument, pursuant to =A72403(b), regarding th= e constitutionality of Article XXVIII. Thereafter, the State Attorney General informed the Ninth Circuit of Yniguez's resignation and suggested that, for lack of a viable plaintiff, the case was moot. The court disagreed, holding that a plea for nominal damages could be read into the complaint's "all other relief" clause to save the case. The en banc Ninth Circuit ultimately affirmed the District Court's ruling that Article XXVIII was unconstitutional, and announced that Yniguez was entitled to nominal damages from the State. Finding the Article's "plain language" dispositive, and noting that the State Attorney General had never conceded that the Article would be unconstitutional if construed as Yniguez asserted it should be, the Court of Appeals also rejected the Attorney General's limiting construction of the Article and declined to certify the matter to the State Supreme Court. Finally, the Ninth Circuit acknowledged a state court challenge to Article XXVIII's constitutionality, Ruiz v. State, but found that litigation no cause to stay the federal proceedings. Held: Because the case was moot and should not have been retained for adjudication on the merits, the Court vacates the Ninth Circuit's judgment and remands the case with directions that the action be dismissed by the District Court. This Court expresses no view on the correct interpretation of Article XXVIII or on the measure's constitutionality. Pp. 18-35. (a) Grave doubts exist as to the standing of petitioners AOE and Park to pursue appellate review under Article III's case or controversy requirement. Standing to defend on appeal in the place of an original defendant demands that the litigant possess "a direct stake in the outcome." Diamond v. Charles, 476 U.S. 54, 62. Petitioners' primary argument--that, as initiative proponents, they have a quasi legislative interest in defending the measure they successfully sponsored--is dubious because they are not elected state legislators, authorized by state law to represent the State's interests, see Karcher v. May, 484 U.S. 72, 82. =46urthermore, this Court has never identified initiative proponents as Article III qualified defenders. Cf. Don't Bankrupt Washington Committee v. Continental Ill. Nat. Bank & Trust Co. of Chicago, 460 U.S. 1077. Their assertion of representational or associational standing is also problematic, absent the concrete injury that would confer standing upon AOE members in their own right, see, e.g., Food and Commercial Workers v. Brown Group, Inc., 517 U. S. ___, ___, and absent anything in Article XXVIII's state court citizen suit provision that could support standing for Arizona residents in general, or AOE in particular, to defend the Article's constitutionality in federal court. Nevertheless, this Court need not definitively resolve the standing of AOE and Park to proceed as they did, but assumes such standing arguendo in order to analyze the question of mootness occasioned by originating plaintiff Yniguez's departure from state employment. See, e.g., Burke v. Barnes, 479 U.S. 361, 363, 364, n. Pp. 18-21. (b) Because Yniguez no longer satisfies the case or controversy requirement, this case is moot. To qualify as a case fit for federal court adjudication, an actual controversy must be extant at all stages of review, not merely at the time the complaint is filed. E.g., Preiser v. Newkirk, 422 U.S. 395, 401. Although Yniguez had a viable claim at the outset of this litigation, her resignation from public sector employment to pursue work in the private sector, where her speech was not governed by Article XXVIII, mooted the case stated in her complaint. Cf. Boyle v. Landry, 401 U.S. 77, 78, 80-81. Contrary to the Ninth Circuit's ruling, her implied plea for nominal damages, which the Ninth Circuit approved as against the State of Arizona, could not revive the case, as =A71983 actions do not lie against a State, Will v. Michigan Dept. of State Police, 491 U.S. 58, 71; Arizona was permitted to participate in the appeal only as an intervenor, through its Attorney General, not as a party subject to an obligation to pay damages; and the State's cooperation with Yniguez in waiving Eleventh Amendment immunity did not recreate a live case or controversy fit for federal court adjudication, cf., e.g., United States v. Johnson, 319 U.S. 302, 304. Pp. 21-26. (c) When a civil case becomes moot pending appellate adjudication, the established practice in the federal system is to reverse or vacate the judgment below and remand with a direction to dismiss. United States v. Munsingwear, Inc., 340 U.S. 36, 39. This Court is not disarmed from that course by the State Attorney General's failure to petition for certiorari. The Court has an obligation to inquire not only into its own authority to decide the questions presented, but to consider also the authority of the lower courts to proceed, even though the parties are prepared to concede it. E.g., Bender v. Williamsport Area School Dist., 475 U.S. 534, 541. Because the Ninth Circuit refused to stop the adjudication when it learned of the mooting event--Yniguez's departure from public employment--its unwarranted en banc judgment must be set aside. Nor is the District Court's judgment saved by its entry before the occurrence of the mooting event or by the Governor's refusal to appeal from it. AOE and Park had an arguable basis for seeking appellate review; moreover, the State Attorney General's renewed certification plea and his motion to intervene in this litigation demonstrate that he was pursuing his =A72403(b) right to defend Article XXVIII's constitutionality when the mooting event occurred. His disclosure of that event to the Ninth Circuit warranted a mootness disposition, which would have stopped his =A72403(b) endeavor and justified vacation of the District Court's judgment. The extraordinary course of this litigation and the federalism concern next considered lead to the conclusion that vacatur down the line is the equitable solution. Pp. 26-30. (d) Taking into account the novelty of the question of Article XXVIII's meaning, its potential importance to the conduct of Arizona's business, the State Attorney General's views on the subject, and the at least partial agreement with those views by the Article's sponsors, more respectful consideration should have been given to the Attorney General's requests to seek, through certification, an authoritative construction of the Article from the State Supreme Court. When anticipatory relief is sought in federal court against a state statute, respect for the place of the States in our federal system calls for close consideration of the question whether conflict is avoidable. Federal courts are not well equipped to rule on a state statute's constitutionality without a controlling interpretation of the statute's meaning and effect by the state courts. See, e.g., Poe v. Ullman, 367 U.S. 497, 526 (Harlan, J., dissenting). Certification saves time, energy, and resources and helps build a cooperative judicial federalism. See e.g., Lehman Brothers v. Schein, 416 U.S. 386, 391. Contrary to the Ninth Circuit's suggestion, this Court's decisions do not require as a condition precedent to certification a concession by the Attorney General that Article XXVIII would be unconstitutional if construed as Yniguezcontended it should be. Moreover, that court improperly blended abstention with certification when it found that "unique circumstances," rather than simply a novel or unsettled state law question, are necessary before federal courts may employ certification. The Arizona Supreme Court has before it, in Ruiz v. State, the question: What does Article XXVIII mean? Once that court has spoken, adjudication of any remaining federal constitutional question may be "greatly simplifie[d]." See Bellotti v. Baird, 428 U.S. 132, 151. Pp. 30-35. 69 F. 3d 920, vacated and remanded. Ginsburg, J., delivered the opinion for a unanimous Court. Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, Illinois 61801 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron =20 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:54:15 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: -ies Ending just thought of another example. woolworth's (which is not a 5-and- dime here, but a very upmarket supermarket) is affectionately referred to as "woolies", but again, i think the -s isn't part of the diminutive, but the possessive marker (so, i should've spelt it "woolie's"). and to put even more ie's and s's in, people who go to wits university are "witsies"--diminutive s + diminutive/personal ie + plural s. incidentally, the 'w' is pronounced like a 'v', so there's no mistaking my students for 'witty'. however, whenever someone here resigns, we say they're "at their wits end", of course. witless, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:57:29 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: help: address for fling, please Sorry to bother the list with this, but is anyone on with the e-address for fling? thankd! beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:01:16 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: help: address for fling, please Sorry to bother the list with this, but is anyone on with the e-address for fling? how weird, i within-the-half-hour read this in the "linguistics and science fiction" newsletter. this is how to subscribe, not the actual list address: listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu subscribe fling yourname flynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:26:50 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: No problemo . . . is [there] in fact an idiomatic phrase in Spanish akin to Eng "no problem"? When I lived in Mexico people said, "No hay problema!" I've always assumed that was universal in Spanish, but I'm no expert, having learned what little I know by trying to communicate in Guadalajara by speaking French with what I perceived to be a Spanish accent. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (e.g., don't ever ask for "pescadas sin tetas" in your Mexican fish market; and "burro" is not 'butter'). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:42:44 CST From: mpicone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo On Mon, 3 Mar 1997 12:31:45 CST Ellen Johnson said: Could someone who speaks Spanish better than me tell us whether this is in fact an idiomatic phrase akin to Eng "no problem", and if so, why it isn't "ningun problema", which is the way I probably would have translated it. Ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu The Spanish idiom is _no hay problema_ lit. `there's no problem'. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:51:08 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: official lg Ok, Dennis, I give up. Does it mean basically that none of the courts will agree to rule on the constitutionality of this law regarding this particular case? Are there other plaintiffs waiting to take up the cause? Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:49:22 -0700 From: "Garland D. Bills" gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo DInIs's response to this matter accurately characterizes thoughtful perspectives on the use of "no problemo", "nada" (with stop or flap /d/), and similar forms that Jane Hill refers to as "junk Spanish". See, for example, her 1995 article in _Pragmatics_, vol. 5, "Junk Spanish, covert racism and the (leaky) boundary between public and private spheres". It seems all too clear that the popular use of Junk Spanish arises from the same ignorance and racism/ethnicism that led to the popular reaction to the Oakland resolution on Ebonics. Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:43:34 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Interesting thread on final -o. Two thoughts. One, is the -(ad)o of armado and bastinado a final schwa? or whatever the reduction vowel of Elizabethan English was. It could be a mere matter of spelling schwa different ways, rather than a r0ounded mid vowel. Two, since different -o's have already been introduced into the discussion, John singler has written (somewhere) on the use of final -o's in West African languages, an areal phenomenon found in Liberia, nigeria, and a number of African and Caribbean creoles too, which signals current relevance or personal involvement. (I thjink it's in his diss., but he also gave a paper called, of course, "The story of -o" about 10 years ago...) An example from Liberian English: A na seti gE o! "I am NOT a city girl!" Nothing to do with "no problemo", but interesting anyway... --peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:39:34 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: I've done my best to read the table Donald M. Lance posted, And thanks to David Carlson for the LAPNW data on 'Missouri'. When we get records with dotted-i from one field worker and a barred-i, dotted or not, from another, it is hard be sure that the presence or absence of the dot means the same thing. One of the many challenges facing dialectologists, many of which are not beyond suitable solutions. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 15:55:55 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Homely As an American woman, I beg to disagree with both Leslie Dunkling and Dale Coye! My mother and her contemporaries regularly used "homely" to mean "plain," and that definitely implied "not pretty"--but not necessarily "ugly." Thus, while "unpretentious" has a neutral or even nice/commendable connotation, "homely" and "plain" do not (the first is more negative than the second)--at least in AmEng female-female discourse! Afterthought: "homely" as a female descriptor may not be used much anymore; I didn't ever use it, mainly because I rejected the concept of beauty that was negatively marked by that term. P.P.S.: "La-di-da" was also used by my mother (b. 1906), to mean "acting like a grand lady" or "highfalutin." And "homey" would indeed mean "cozy/warm/comfortable." Beverly Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:53:21 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: -ies Ending On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: Reading a sailing magazine from Britain, I came across the word "foulies" which refers to oilskins or apparel worn during nasty weather. I am also familiar with "Wellies" for Wellington boots. I have vague feeling that the -ies ending may be more practiced in Britain than Stateside. Any thoughts? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com That gives me the willies. Or maybe the heebie-jeebies. Anybody wanna boogie? I think it's equally prevalent on both sides of the atlantic, but crops up in different ways. "Foulies" or "wellies" is unheard of here, but as illustrated we've come up with our own uses of this suffix. It interests me to know that the machine I'm typing this on is considered a raincoat in England. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:58:27 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo I doubt very seriously that any language received this expression via German. "Problem" is a borrowing into German from the Romance languages, and is still clearly marked as "foreign" by its non-Germanic final-syllable stress. While "Kein Problem!" is common enough in present-day German (and while I have admittedly not tried to find it in a historical dictionary before dashing off this message), it has the "feel" of one of the countless expressions that have been borrowed or (in this case) patterned after English. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote: Could someone who speaks Spanish better than me tell us whether this is in fact an idiomatic phrase akin to Eng "no problem", and if so, why it isn't "ningun problema", which is the way I probably would have translated it. The mention of German, which would use kein rather than nein made me wonder about this. If it is a loan translation from German dressed up as a Spanish borrowing, this is interesting, as is the re-translation of the phrase into pseudo-Swahili "hakuna matata", pronounced, to the chagrin of my friend Lioba, with the last /t/ flapped. Ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu p.s. a cultural note: we didn't wrap the houses in toilet paper, rather we threw the rolls into the branches of trees so it would hang down and blow in the breeze like streamers, a rather lovely decoration. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:12:10 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: official lg I'm no expert on the Supremes, but my reading of the decision is the same as Ellen's (I didn't read the syllabus, but the decision isn't actually much longer). It seems as if the Court didn't wish to decide the constitutionality question here, and are waiting for the Ruiz case (which was expressly held up pending the outcome of this one) to decide whether to decide. This is probably a good thing-- as in death cases, the longer they don't decide for sure, the better-- but not exactly progress toward the light either.... Luckily, I will have the benefit of hearing Dennis's opinion first-hand on Wednesday (and his army of legal advisers second-hand), as he is coming to DC to address the Smithsonian forum on usage (also featuring many of our other mighty ADS-ers, such as E.W. Gilman, Connie Eble, etc.), and is even coming to my undergrad class to hold forth! We had a wonderful mock-debate in there today-- I "teach" the subject every year now, finding that students are fascinated, and have discovered that the real way to win converts is not to teach it at all but to let them do it (obvious, I guess, but I had to try my way first, as always). I figure that no socioloinguistics class should turn out students who are unprepared to debate English-Only and Ebonics in public. I decided that a couple years ago in a plane conversation when I found I couldn't do such a good job on the former myself... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:34:29 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply But Donald is "disturbed" by my explanation, and I'm not sure why. Donald? Because /h/ has much more in common distributionally with consonants than with vowels. I prefer to classify phonemes on the basis of concatenation features rather than on the basis of articulation in isolation. /h/ is a consonant that has less oral constriction than others, but it still functions as a consonant in syllable-structure patterns. Claiming that /h/ is a vowel is misleading. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 16:00:46 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo, daddy-o On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Dale F.Coye wrote: Using an -o ending makes a word sound Spanish to Eng. speakers and has for centuries, no matter whether masculine or feminine in Sp. Armada was armado in Early Mod. English, bastinado (a torture where you got beaten with a rod) fr. Sp. bastinada, ambuscado, etc. I think the OED has a section on this And don't forget "The Cask of Amontillado," which ended in -a, originally. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:07:31 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Leslie, What about cheerio, for heaven's sake? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:15:47 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: -ies Ending Well, of the top of my head, I can think of wedgies, u-ies, and sillies. As in: In junior high school, the girls would get a case of the sillies when they saw a boy get a wedgie when someone pulled up on his u-ies. How's that? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:08:15 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply -Reply [I asked:] But Donald is "disturbed" by my explanation, and I'm not sure why. Donald? [Donald answered:] Because /h/ has much more in common distributionally with consonants than with vowels. I prefer to classify phonemes on the basis of concatenation features rather than on the basis of articulation in isolation. /h/ is a consonant that has less oral constriction than others, but it still functions as a consonant in syllable-structure patterns. Claiming that /h/ is a vowel is misleading. [I reply:] Oh, but I agree. I can't quote my post, but I said clearly that while *phonetically* [h] is a vowel, *phonologically* in AmE /h/ patterns as a consonant and makes sense only as such. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 18:32:05 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: More on -O Earlier than that, cartoonist T. A. Dorgan used it prolifically in terms like pippo, kiddo, righto, and in fictional[?] product names like washo, smoko, polisho, etc. I imagine Leonard Zwilling's work on TAD would be useful in this area. I suspect Randy knew I had the Zwilling book, so he gave me an assignment. Here's what's in A TAD LEXICON, by Leonard Zwilling. ETYMOLOGY AND LINGUISTIC PRINCIPLES, Vol 3. Publsihed by Gerald Cohen, Professor of Foreign Languages, University of Missouriu-Rolla, Rolla MO 65401. 1993. The book has 77 pages of citations from Dorgan's cartoons that antedate entries in a number of references such as the OED Supplement and 46 pages of "Hitherto Unrecorded Words and Phrases." p. 119. Quoted here without permission, but the copyright page of the book doesn't have the dire message about being prosecuted for not getting prior permission to reproduce passages of the book. Jerry has told me a number of times that he doesn't mind when people make copies of his work as long as they give due credit. So I doubt that I'll be sued. He publishes things as a means of trying to get dialogues going. (I'm not giving the full text anyway.) -o Added to nouns, often in advertisements 1905 A cartoon about a boxer being prepared for a fight. Commenting on his physical condition, he says: See that hump? It used to be bigger. "Rubbo" did it. See the white spot. "Frecklo" did it. 1908 an ad Don't be fat Run 20 miles a day Eat one meal Don't sleep And then drink Skino ( I can't tell for sure from the entry, but I suspect it's an ad within a cartoon.) 1908 In a cartoon about "Longboat's Marathon Victory Over Dorando" sign: Eat Beano It makes you strong on runner's shirt: Smoke Cremo 1909 Bwana Tumbo helpo (I can't tell from (lack of) context what this means.) 1915 cartoon Ith a seet little hat -- Like it Alextander? A pippo 1917 cartoon of "The Headless Horseman" Just as I'm ridin no hands he bucks an' off I go on me beano. 1920 (ad) Smello -- Kills the odor of home brew 1921 signEat Bullo Eat Bullo 1922 (sign in drugstore) Jazbo tooth paste Glosso Braino pills Hairo pills Dento 1923 (sign) Slicko for the hair Drugstore cowboys all use it. 1928 (signs in stores) Try Washo Smoke Smoko Use Oilo Ask for Polisho End of list. Sorry, no daddy-o. An earlier posting mentioned ads with some of these ads and speculated that the references in ads may or may not have referred to actual products. I don't recall the posting very clearly. From Zwilling's material it seems clear the names were made up. Among the antedatings he has this entry: daddy [OEDS 1926] 1913 Apr 15 San Francisco Examiner 11 {Singer:} Here comes my daddy now ... Oh, pop, oh, pop, oh, pop. Is 'daddy' that new? (I'm not really trying to compete with Barry.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:49:30 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Olla podrida Lynnsie-winnsie is on a par with Jimsy-wimsy, Georgie-Porgie, etc., which I have always put down to the natural linguistic playfulness of young children. J.M.Barrie knew a little girl who used to call him her friendy-wendy. This caused him to invent the name Wendy, which he used in _Peter Pan_. Dale F.Coye wrote: "I think I'm right in saying that describing someone's face as plain in British English generally means not good-looking, or even ugly." Collins Cobuild Dictionary equates it directly with American "homely." Chambers English Dictionary says that it means "deficient in beauty" or "ugly" in meiosis. (Perhaps that last word explains the difference in meaning given to "plain" by Beverly Flanigan's mother and a typical British speaker using his well-known understatement. No doubt, Beverly, those who indulge in "AmEng female-female discourse" are "plain-spoken," to coin a phrase. We British males seldom are.) "An -o ending makes a word sound Spanish to Eng. speakers and has for centuries, no matter whether masculine or feminine in Sp. Armada was armado in Early Mod. English, bastinado (a torture where you got beaten with a rod) fr. Sp. bastinada, ambuscado, etc. I think the OED has a section on this under -ado." It does, and the relevant section of the entry doesn't pull any punches: \-ado, suffix of ns. 1. a. Sp. or Pg. -ado masc. of pa. pple., as El Dorado the gilded 2. An ignorant sonorous refashioning of ns. in -ade, a. Fr. -ade fem. (= Sp. -ada, It. -ata) probably after the assumed analogy of renegade = renegado; e.g. ambuscado, bastinado, bravado, barricado, carbonado, camisado, crusado, grenado, gambado, palisado, panado, scalado, stoccado, strappado, all of which in Sp. have (or would have) -ada. So armado obs. var. of armada. Mark Mandel asked: Does "toilet paper" mean the same thing on both sides of the water? In the US it is the stuff used for personal cleanliness after defecation, and comes in rolls. No problemo, it means the same thing. (And Mark, I take your point about the lack of true rhyme.) L.D. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:14:33 -0800 From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: /h/ as a vowel?!? -Reply -Reply don lance says: "Claiming that /h/ is a vowel is misleading." i believe that the claim was that [h] is a vowel. /h/ is certainly a consonant in english. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 20:50:38 EST From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given Dear ADSers: Has anyone ever collected undergraduate malapropisms on grammar tests? Here's an example to add to the list, from a mid-term exam taken last week: "_It's_ is a contraption of _it_ and _is_." Indeed! What other contraptions are our students learning about in our courses?? Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 19:53:49 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Ellen Johnson asks: why it isn't "ningun problema", which is the way I probably would have translated it. The mention of German, which would use kein rather than nein made me wonder about this. You're right about the Spanish quantifier. It wouldn't have to be a loan-translation from German. "No problem" could have developed here and spread to Germany. I can't keep from seeing Schwartzenegger when I hear "No problemo." You know, in that movie, whatever it was. Definitely not a Spanish construction. Maybe we should say "Kein problemo," which I actually have done. Someone mentioned the "rhyme" in "no" and "problemo" and got corrected. What about assonance? I wasn't gonna say anything about teepeeing, but since Ellen also mentioned it, I'll point out that in Columbia MO it may occur at other times of the year, like at high school graduation, but it is more common at Halloween. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:14:24 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: official lg Peter L. Patrick wrote: Luckily, I will have the benefit of hearing Dennis's opinion first-hand on Wednesday (and his army of legal advisers second-hand), as he is coming to DC to address the Smithsonian forum on usage (also featuring many of our other mighty ADS-ers, such as E.W. Gilman, Connie Eble, etc.) If it isn't too much trouble, could we have some information about this (would copies of your talks be too much to ask?) posted on the list? Or better yet, included on the ADS webpage (which looks real spiffy lately, I might add)? Danny Long (who might could go to Washington that day, but probably won't be able to. . . no, this double modal doesn't seem to work in the negative) (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Mar 1997 23:01:34 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Clones; Naples; Daddy-O; My Dad CLONES: "Clones" is the name of a town in the County of Monaghan, Northern Republic of Ireland. Marc Picard answered by ANS-L query and wrote that Clones is pronounced in two syllables, and comes from Cluain Eois (Eos Meadow). He had no clue if the people there were Clones, Cloners, Clonsers, or Clonsians, or whether there was a gal there named Dolly. IRISH PLACE NAMES by Deidre Flanagan and Laurence Flanagan (Dublin: Gill & Macmillan, 1994) is a handy purchase I made on last summer's Ireland tour. "Cluain" is on pages 56-57 and means "meadow" or "pasture-land" and "is very common in place names; it is usually Anglicised as 'clon or 'cloon(e)'." From pg. 192: CLONEA (Waterford)(Cluain Fhia): Pasture of the deer. CLONEE (Meath)(Cluain Aodha): Aodh's pasture. CLONEEN (Tipperary)(Cluainin): Little pasture. CLONEGALL (Carlow)(Cluain na nGall): Pasture of the stones. CLONENAGH (Laois)(Cluain Eidhneach): Ivied pasture. CLONES (Monaghan)(Cluain Eois): Pasture of Eos. CLONEY (Kildare)(Cluainaidh): Pasture. CLONEYGOWAN (Offaly)(Cluain na nGamhan): Pasture of the calves. All that pastureland--Dolly will love it! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------- NAPLES: I was working backwards and didn't have time to check Goethe. Again, Goethe didn't cite a classical source, such as Pliny the Younger--nor any source. "See Naples and Die" was probably coined about 1762, when Pompeii was rediscovered and Naples was made a stop on the "Grand Tour." I thought someone in, well, Naples would have solved this, but I guess not. I won't be able to solve it for at least several more weeks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- DADDY-O: As early as 1819, during the Dandy craze, there was a popular song called "Dandy-O" that was much quoted and parodied. The "Daddy-O" users of the 1950s didn't know the song, but the formation goes way, way back to across the pond. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ MY DAD: My dad died today. He had multiple sclerosis, then strokes, then diabetes, and had been ill for 21 years. My mother--who was in the same hospital last month--is making funeral arrangements. So long for a while. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 11:21:41 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: it's Michael Montgomery wrote: Has anyone ever collected undergraduate malapropisms on grammar tests? Here's an example to add to the list, from a mid-term exam taken last week: "_It's_ is a contraption of _it_ and _is_." Indeed! What other contraptions are our students learning about in our courses?? Appalling! Everyone who knows their English grammar knows that "it's" could just as well be a contraption of "it" and "has". Danny Long (holding down things English in this part of the world) (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Mar 1997 to 3 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1997 to 4 Mar 1997 There are 18 messages totalling 607 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. a bit more -o 2. It's 3. contraption/contraction (2) 4. Military Technical Reports about Dialect(s) 5. official lg (3) 6. Spanglish 7. Missouri opportunity April 10 8. daddy-o (2) 9. daddy-o -Reply 10. Claudio's Parents 11. help: address for fling, please 12. Daddy-o 13. No subject given 14. Homely ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 01:26:31 -0500 From: Bryan Gick bryan.gick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: a bit more -o DADDY-O: As early as 1819, during the Dandy craze, there was a popular song called "Dandy-O" that was much quoted and parodied. The "Daddy-O" users of the 1950s didn't know the song, but the formation goes way, way back to across the pond. Sounds right to me. While "problemo" seems clearly Spanoid (reminds me of the Italianoid "crapola") because of the accent shift/vowel quality (probl[ej]mo), "daddy-o," "dandy-o" and bunches of other -o's, on the other hand, seem more connected to the who-knows-how-old "traditional" British song device whose rule goes something like: if it's in a song or rhyme, you can stick an -o on it. Cf. "hey down the derry-o," etc. More seriously, though, it seems to be ok to append this latter -o in the hiatus after any line-final trochee...but all you poets out there can probably give an accurate description of the process. While we're at it, "crapola" brings to mind "garbagio" [garba'Zio], which I've heard quite a lot in my life, and which seems to be an extraordinarily Romantic hybrid (pardon the cloney imagery)...especially in its sometimes-form "EL garbagio." Hmm. Bryan /\------------------------------------------------------- [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]|Bryan Gick Department of Linguistics bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pantheon.yale.edu Yale University '/ (203)772-2549 and Haskins Laboratories W-------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:23:13 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: It's On Mon, 3 Mar 1997, Michael Montgomery wrote: }Dear ADSers: } }Has anyone ever collected undergraduate malapropisms on grammar tests? }Here's an example to add to the list, from a mid-term exam taken last }week: } } "_It's_ is a contraption of _it_ and _is_." } }Indeed! What other contraptions are our students learning about in our }courses?? Well, I went to a Catholic university, so we didn't learn much about contraptions in class. :) --Aaron ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:34:40 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: contraption/contraction For those who find the above to be a surprising lapsus calami, I offer the following version of _contraction_ that I just found in my files: SMERSH is a contradiction of 'Smiert Spionam'...--beginning of chapter 4 of Ian Fleming's "From Russia with Love", some unidentified paperback edition. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 07:47:54 +0000 From: Michael Ravnitzky MikeRav[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Military Technical Reports about Dialect(s) DO YOU WANT A LIST OF MILITARY TECHNICAL REPORTS ON THE SUBJECT OF DIALECT and DIALECTS? You can get a list of [largely unpublished] military technical reports on Dialect and related topics. Many of these reports have been locked away for various bureaucratic reasons and have not been put into the public domain. Here is the subject keyword with which you can obtain a LIST of several dozen military technical reports on Dialects and related subjects from the Defense Technical Information Center, a government agency. [see below] KEYWORD: Dialect Dialects IMPORTANT NOTE: Do not bother using the DTIC web site--in a nutshell, it is worthless because the web site omits most of the two million technical reports in the DTIC collection. [Most of these reports are NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT in the NTIS collection, and have been unavailable to the public.] Send a letter instead--you will get much better results. The fee is likely to be free or only a few bucks. You probably want to include a statement in the letter such as *I agree to pay reasonable fees associated with this request. Please notify me if the cost will exceed $25.*, so that they won't delay the processing of the request. Remember, they WILL try to dissuade you from asking for such a list. If they send you a letter, and you do not respond, they will withdraw your request and you will not get your information. Here is a form letter to use for your request: To: Defense Technical Information Center Attn: DTIC-RSM [Kelly D. Akers, FOIA Manager] 8725 John J. Kingman Road, Suite 0944 Fort Belvoir, VA 22060-6128 USA Phone: 703-767-9194 Dear Ms. Akers: I request the following records under the provisions of the Freedom of Information Act: A computer generated technical report bibliography of reports on the subject[s]/keyword[s] of: ________________ OR _________________ OR ________________ OR _______________ OR _________________ OR _______________ Please send me this bibliography for all years in your computerized index. This is a request for DTIC records, please don't forward my request to NTIS. Please include both classified and unclassified records in your search. If any of the records are classified, please review them for release, or the release of nonsensitive portions. I am an individual, noncommercial requester and this request is not being made for commercial purposes. [OR YOU MIGHT INSTEAD INDICATE DIFFERENTLY IF YOU ARE A COMMERCIAL REQUESTER, OR AN EDUCATIONAL OR SCIENTIFIC INSTITUTION, OR A REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MEDIA] I also agree to pay up to $25 for reasonable fees associated with this request. Sincerely, ______________ Hope you find this a useful resource. Michael Ravnitzky MikeRav[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:13:43 -0500 From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM Subject: Re: official lg forth! We had a wonderful mock-debate in there today-- I "teach" the subject every year now, finding that students are fascinated, and have discovered that the real way to win converts is not to teach it at all but to let them do it (obvious, I guess, but I had to try my way first, as always). I figure that no socioloinguistics class should turn out students who are unprepared to debate English-Only and Ebonics in public. I sincerely hope Peter Patrick does not intend the word "oppose" where he writes "debate". There is no intrinsic reason why a linguist by definition must oppose English-only or standard language pedagogy. It is perfectly justifiable to work under the scientific notion that languages are value-neutral with respect to each other, while still accepting that certain languages/dialects have different social values. The single greatest force of assimilation in this country is its language; to not compel immigrants to learn English as my parents did, is to sentence them to a lifetime of exclusion from the political and cultural life of this nation. -Claudio ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 09:38:40 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: official lg From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM The single greatest force of assimilation in this country is its language; to not compel immigrants to learn English as my parents did, is to sentence them to a lifetime of exclusion from the political and cultural life of this nation. there's a weird ellipsis (weird in terms of supporting the argument) here-- to not compel immigrants to learn english as my parents did (learn english) is to sentence them... but not... to not compel immigrants to learn english as my parent were (compelled to learn english) note that without compulsion (i.e. a law) they did learn it. there was compulsion in terms of socio-economic factors. those still exist- -there aren't a heck of a lot of opportunities for non-english speaking monolinguals (and perhaps too many for english-speaking monolinguals!), so people are still compelled to learn english (and do). i've never heard of anyone being denied access to english by the government. so, what's the problem? lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:53:56 -0700 From: "Garland D. Bills" gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: Spanglish Tim Frazier earlier (a couple of weeks ago?) asked about "Spanglish". Spanglish is a generally derogatory term for the speech of U.S. Hispanics that is considered to be something less than a real language. As might be expected from popular speech, it can refer to several things: a variety of Spanish, a variety of English, or code-switching. I responded privately to Tim asking which aspects of "Spanglish" he was interested in, and he responded that he would appreciate some bibliography on all three aspects. Thinking that the following bibliographical information might be of interest to others, I'm posting it to the list. The following book is a nearly exhaustive annotated bibliography for works published through 1974: Teschner, Richard V., Garland D. Bills, & Jerry R. Craddock. 1975. _Spanish and English of United States Hispanos: A critical, annotated, linguistic bibliography_. Arlington, Va.: Center for Applied Linguistics. Much, much more has been published since 1974. I have tried to maintain a simple unannotated list of works that come to my attention, and that non-exhaustive listing now amounts to more than 70 pages, single-spaced in 10-point type. Following is a sampling of some of the more important anthologies that have appeared; these are the non-serial works that I have put on reserve for a seminar on Spanish in the U.S. that I am teaching this semester. Amastae, Jon, & Luc=A1a Elias-Olivares (eds.) 1982. _Spanish in the United States: Sociolinguistic aspects_. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Barkin, Florence, & Elizabeth Brandt (eds.) 1980. _Speaking, singing and teaching: A multi-disciplinary approach to language variation_ (Proceedings of the eighth annual Southwestern Language and Linguistics Workshop). Tempe: Arizona State University. Bergen, John J. (ed.) 1990. _Spanish in the United States: Sociological issues_. Washington, D.C.: Georgetown University Press. Bixler-Marquez, Dennis J., Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia, & George K. Green (eds.) 1989. _Mexican-American Spanish in its societal and cultural contexts_. Brownsville: University of Texas-Pan American-Brownsville. Colombi, M. Cecilia, & Francisco X. Alarcon (eds.) 1996. _La ense=A4anza del espa=A4ol a hispanohablantes: Praxis y teor=A1a_. Boston: Houghton-Mifflin. Duran, Richard P. (ed.) 1981. _Latino language and communicative behavior_. Norwood, NJ: ABLEX Publishing. Elias-Olivares, Lucia (ed.) 1983. _Spanish in the U.S. setting: Beyond the Southwest_. Rosslyn, Va.: National Clearinghouse for Bilingual Education. Elias-Olivares, Lucia, Elizabeth A. Leone, Rene Cisneros, & John R. Gutierrez (eds.) 1985. _Spanish language use and public life in the United States_. Berlin: Mouton. Fishman, Joshua A., & Gary D. Keller (eds.) 1982. _Bilingual education for Hispanic students in the United States_. New York: Teachers College Press. Green, George K., & Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia (eds.) 1986. _Mexican-American language: Usage, attitudes, maintenance, instruction, and policy_. Brownsville, Tex.: Pan American University at Brownsville. Hernandez-Chavez, Eduardo, Andrew D. Cohen, & Anthony Fred Beltramo (eds.) 1975. _El lenguaje de los chicanos: Regional and social characteristics of language used by Mexican-Americans_. Arlington, Va.: Center for Applied Linguistics. Hidalgo, Margarita (ed.) 1995. _Sociolinguistic trends on the U.S.-Mexican border_. Issue of _International Journal of the Sociology of Language_, no. 114. McKay, Sandra Lee, & Sau-Ling Cynthia Wong (eds.) 1988. _Language diversity: Problem or resource? A social and educational perspective on language minorities in the United States_. New York: Newbury House. Merino, Barbara J., Henry T. Trueba, & Fabian A. Samaniego. 1993. _Language and culture in learning: Teaching Spanish to native speakers of Spanish_. Washington, D.C.: Falmer Press. Ornstein-Galicia, Jacob L., George K. Green, & Dennis J. Bixler-Marquez (eds.) 1988. _Research issues and problems in United States Spanish: Latin American and southwestern varieties_. Brownsville, Tex.: Pan American University at Brownsville. Roca, Ana, & John M. Lipski. 1993. _Spanish in the United States: Linguistic contact and diversity_. Berlin: Mouton de Gruyter. Silva-Corvalan, Carmen (ed.) 1995. _Spanish in four continents: Studies in language contact and bilingualism_. Washington, D.C.: Georgetown University Press. Turner, Paul R. (ed.) 1982. _Bilingualism in the Southwest_. 2nd ed. rev. Tucson: University of Arizona Press. Wherritt, Irene, & Ofelia Garcia (eds.). 1989. _US Spanish: The language of Latinos_. Issue of _International Journal of the Sociology of Language_, no. 79. With regard to works since 1974 on the English of U.S. Hispanics, the following two books merit special mention: Ornstein-Galicia, Jacob (ed.) 1984. _Form and function in Chicano English_. Rowley, Mass.: Newbury House. Penfield, Joyce, & Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia. 1985. _Chicano English: An ethnic contact dialect_. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Garland D. Bills=09=09=09=09E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics=09=09=09Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico=09=09=09FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:09:17 -0500 From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET Subject: Re: contraption/contraction Better hurry to the hospital...the contraptions are getting closer together. - David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:33:14 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Missouri opportunity April 10 Is there an ADS member who would like to represent us at the inauguration of Dale F. Nitzschke as new president of Southeast Missouri State University on Thursday, April 10? The keynote address will be by Maya Angelou! ADS can't pay your expenses, so your reward would be the thing itself, and our gratitude. If you're interested, please let me know right away so I can make our reservation. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:35:25 -0600 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: daddy-o I believe daddy-o was used as a play on the teacher's name (Glenn Ford as Mr. Dadier?) in the movie "Blackboard Jungle" (1955). akra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:48:27 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: daddy-o -Reply Albert E. Krahn krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US 0304.1335 I believe daddy-o was used as a play on the teacher's name (Glenn Ford as Mr. Dadier?) in the movie "Blackboard Jungle" (1955). The timing would be right for an import from hipster talk. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:37:47 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: official lg Thanks to Claudio Salvucci for worrying about my basic English skills. Luckily I'm not only a linguist but a native speaker, fully aware of the difference between "oppose" and "debate". As a teacher, I want them to "debate"-- hell, I'll even "compel" 'em to. As a sociolinguist, I want them to end up appreciating the many, many good reasons for opposing English-only policies and legislation. (Of course, they have to get to that position under their own power-- it's not required, and they can still earn a good grade and my respect as human beings if we disagree on this.) I'm even open to the possibility that someone will come up with good sociolinguistic arguments FOR English-only someday. But i have yet to see or hear one. The compelling arguments for English-only all involve subscribing to political positions that proponents seem to think all Americans ought to share, but which I don't happen to. For example, what's so great about assimilation? It all depends on what one is being assimilated TO-- this is a directional verb, after all. I'm not particularly interested in requiring other people to become like me-- much less like some picture of the American ideal. The fact that the domination of standard English is one of the principal engines of assimilation in the US is precisely one of the things I object to most about the political uses of this variety. The flip side of the vaunted opportunity Claudio refers to is the gate-keeping that goes on to keep most people from reaching the promisd land-- and StdEng is a principal tool of exclusion, denigration and hegemony (if also a pretty darn cool and flexible tool for speaking and writing-- almost as rich in its tense-aspect system as, say, its cousin Ebonics). So, it may be obvious by now that when it comes to choice of language variety, political ideals, ethnic identification etc. I'm not (happily) in the business of "compelling" or "sentencing" people, if I can help it. I'm always suspicious of proposals, like Claudio's, to coerce people into doing what is good for them by force of law (presumably they are too dumb to be trusted to do it otherwise). Back to language-- I'm confused by Claudio's contradictory contentions that (a) "languages are value neutral" and (b) they "have different social values". Obviously, if (b) is true-- and who could deny that it is?-- (a) must refer to some non-social sorts of values. Whatever they are, their relevance to the issue of language rights and legislation is not clear to me. This being a free country, Claudio (like Ernie Smith, S.I. Hayakawa and anyone else) is entitled to call himself a "linguist" and believe whatever he wants to. To know more about what the great majority of linguists believe, he might consider consulting the Statement on Language Rights approved by the LSA Officers and Executive Committee and voted in as a "sense of the majority of the membership resolution" last year. Quoting selectively from the text, whicih was published in the March 1996 LSA Bulletin, here are some interesting points: * "where linguistic discord does arise... it is generally the result of majority attempts to disadvantage or suppress a minority linguistic community" * "At a minimum, all residents of the US should be guaranteed the following linguistic rights: a) To be allowed to express themselves, publicly or privately, in the language of their choice; b) To maintain their native language and, should they so desire, to pass it on to their children; ... d) To have their children educated in a manner that affirmatively acknowledges their native language abilities... some use of children's native language in the classroom is often desirable...; e) To conduct business in the language of their choice... "...The role of English as our common language has never seriously been questioned... Nonetheless, promoting our common language need not, and should not, come at the cost of violating the rights of linguistic minorities." The Society did not take a position, in this statement, on any particular English-only legislation. However, it should be clear that the position we did take is incompatible with many or most of the extant proposals. And THAT, as far as I can tell, is what "most linguists" think. --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:25:19 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Claudio's Parents My question is: Why did Claudio's parents compel immigrants to learn English? Maggie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM The single greatest force of assimilation in this country is its language; to not compel immigrants to learn English as my parents did, is to sentence them to a lifetime of exclusion from the political and cultural life of this nation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:58:51 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: help: address for fling, please In a message dated 97-03-03 19:20:45 EST, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU writes: Sorry to bother the list with this, but is anyone on with the e-address for fling? thankd! beth simon What is fling? Johnnie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:52:39 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Daddy-o The earliest quote in OED2: \1949 Music Libr. Assoc. Notes Dec. 42 Daddy-o, friend, buddy. Originated with Negro musicians. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:56:54 -0600 From: Thelma Casso tc010190[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMIU.EDU Subject: No subject given ADS-L THELMA CASSO ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:23:23 -0500 From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU Subject: Re: daddy-o re: daddy-o I remember that at least as far back as the 1940's people greeted each other with the phrase, "whatchu know, daddy-o?". They were imitating people that they thought of as "hep cats"-- those people in and around the jazz scene. Sometimes the greeting was accompanied by a cool bopping walk and a snap of the fingers ; I also wonder if the daddy part of this phrase might have something to do with people who were "living large" since other phrases that were also popular around that time were: Big Daddy (usually a name for a powerful figure) and Sugar Daddy (a "sponsor"). Other examples include Sweet Daddy, Daddy Grace and Daddy Warbucks(?). Barbara Hill Hudson IUP (on spring break) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:40:47 +1100 From: Pauline Bryant pbryant[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACRAE.COM.AU Subject: Re: Homely 'Homely' in Australian English can mean both unpretentious (of things) and plain (of people). The Macquarie Dictionary, Australia's national dictionary, defines it as 1. proper or suited to the home or to ordinary domestic life; plain; unpretentious: [example] homely fare. 2. not good-looking; plain: [example] a homely girl. The latter is considerd a kinder way of saying 'plain', but does not mean 'ugly'. Both senses would probably be used more by older speakers now. As for wrapping houses in toilet paper, I have not seen this done, but festooning trees with unrolled toilet paper is done sometimes in Australia where it is considered rather uncouth but an expression of youthful exuberance that can be tolerated - the sort of thing that university students do when they have been drinking to celebrate the end of the exams or whatever. Leslie Dunkling wrote: 1895 Westm. Gaz. 31 Jan. 3/2, I may tell you we are all homely girls. We don't want any la-di-da members. "What does the word "homely" mean to Brits?" In this instance I think it meant "unpretentious." When I first saw a reference to "a homely woman" many years ago I assumed that it meant a woman who was domesticated. I was very surprised to find that in American English it can mean "ugly." (Equally surprised to learn now that American children sometimes wrap houses in toilet paper. British kids would think this a great idea.) But "homely" has long meant "plain," and that word can obviously mean of plain appearance as well as unpretentious in speech and behaviour. I have never heard "homey" used in Britain, though I would assume it to mean "cosy" if it occurred. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1997 to 4 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 405 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. conference announcement 2. Yankonics (2) 3. Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) (2) 4. Re[2]: daddy-o (3) 5. Ebonics, Yankonics 6. Anudda Bumpa Sticka ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:35:45 +100 From: Edgar Schneider edgar.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Subject: conference announcement International Symposium / Symposium International Degrees of Restructuring in Creole Languages / Degres de restructuration dans les langues creoles 24-27 June 1998 University of Regensburg, Germany Call for Papers In recent years, creole studies has increasingly returned to the question of creole genesis. Hall's conventional model of creolization as spontaneous language generation by a first generation of children has turned out to be too idealized and hardly tenable. Recent work suggests that, presumably, creolization did not happen abruptly but rather gradually, and that the rate and intensity of creolization varied from one creole region to another. In this context, the notion of "restructuring" has become increasingly important. The term denotes processes of linguistic, particularly morphosyntactic, change which have systematized and autonomized tendencies inherent in contact languages. Parallels between creoles with different base languages suggest the existence of certain recurrent patterns of restructuring, but the restructuring process as such has apparently not affected all creoles to the same extent. Several varieties, sometimes called "semi-creoles" or the like, appear to have been restructured only partially, a fact which obviously assigns special importance to them for the understanding of creolization. In this light, the very notions of "creole" and "creolization" are to be interpreted as scalar rather than dichotomous phenomena. The International Symposium at the University of Regensburg is intended to promote a better understanding of the processes of partial restructuring in creolization, to support the development of theoretical models of this process, and to encourage further and improved descriptive analyses of the varieties in question, some of which are still insufficiently documented. Papers which are relevant to this topic are invited. Both empirical studies of any of the varieties in question and theoretical discussions of the issues just mentioned, preferably papers which combine both aspects, will be we lcomed. Papers should take 30 minutes, to be followed by 15 minutes of discussion. Conference languages are English and French. A one-page abstract should be sent to either of the organizers by June 30, 1997. Proposals for papers will be reviewed, and notifications of acceptance will be sent out soon afterwards. Upon request, a slightly more comprehensive project description is available in English or French. For further information, contact one of the organizers: Prof. Dr. Ingrid Neumann-Holzschuh University of Regensburg Institut fuer Romanistik D-93040 Regensburg, Germany phone: +-49-941-943-3381/3376 fax: +-49-941-9433302 e-mail: ingrid.neumann-holzschuh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Prof. Dr. Edgar W. Schneider University of Regensburg Institut fuer Anglistik und Amerikanistik D-93040 Regensburg, Germany phone: +-49-941-943-3470 fax: +-49-941-9431990 e-mail: edgar.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, Institut fuer Anglistik D-93040 Regensburg, Germany phone +-49-941-9433470 fax +-49-941-9431990 (NOTE: New fax no.!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:04:11 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Yankonics Would the person who wrote the entertaining piece on "Yankonics" a week or two ago please send it to me again? I accidently deleted it and need it for my research on "Spanglonics" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:43:07 -0500 From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM Subject: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) Peter Patrick: You asked for a reasoned argument in favor of the English-only legislation, and perhaps others would like one as well. I will attempt to oblige; because I think at heart you and I agree on most of the essentials here, but perhaps the media has done an inadequate job of explaining the logic and scope of these laws. I can encourage foreign language use/dialect learning and still want to discourage them in _official_ contexts. I myself know a few, wish I knew more, and I have a great interest in promoting dialect as a means of literary expression. But I separate these private interests from what I believe is in the best interests of the federal and state governments. Whatever language is used in the home, English is the only logical choice for _official_ functions, for the following reasons: 1) governments that are already deeply in debt will incur enormous expense in reprinting all official materials (ballots, tax forms, registration forms, licenses) in an indeterminate number of languages. 2) a public that is already heavily taxed will not want to pay for such programs. 3) Most immigrants who have come to these shores were proud to learn English, and themselves encouraged their children to learn it as a sign of affection and gratitude for the nation that took them in and acknowledged their right to pursue life, liberty and happiness. 4) Producing native-language materials encourages immigrants not to learn English, thus denying themselves full access to jobs, capital, information, etc. in a majority English-speaking country. And that is a recipe for social unrest. 5) English is de facto an official language anyway: this only insures that it will remain this way, and that current politically correct attempts to rewrite every facet of American culture will not jeopardize this. All these laws say is that English will be the sole language used in America for official contexts. There is no desire to alter or eliminate what is taught in private schools, what can be used in private businesses, at home, or in any other non-official capacity. Of course, if one is a believer in the state's "obligation" to intrude itself in every aspect in human life as some in the media are, I could see how the public/private distinction would be ignored. Languages are SCIENTIFICALLY value neutral; but they are SOCIALLY valued. I do not see any inherent contradiction in studying "ain't" for example, or the double modals which have recently gotten so much attention here, and then writing a journal article in which one studiously avoids such constructions, perceiving them to be inappropriate. When I studied sociobiology, we often discussed murder/rape/theft as behaviors and cost/benefit strategies, leaving aside any moral judgements of those actions. Yet most of us understood on a human level that such actions were morally reprehensible. Some people were unable to make that distinction, however, and this is one of the reasons that E.O.Wilson was so vehemently criticized for his pioneer work "Sociobiology". =46inally, the English-only laws do not contradict the LSA quotes you posted= : the LSA points seem to be focusing solely on private usage of languages. I would be unalterably opposed to ANY ban on what language/dialect can be used privately; I think that most Americans would strongly agree. That kind of legislation is wholly tyrannical and has no place in American law. And still, there is nothing in those quotes that precludes the state from acknowledging the most frequently used language as having exclusive official-use status, for the reasons I have enumerated above. Think about how awfully the media reports on the ebonics or cloning issue, and then imagine how easily they could distort the facts behind what are really common sense laws. Just for the record, I don't pretend at my young age and experience to be a linguist, just a fascinated student of human nature. And far be it from me to question anyone's English skills right when I'm asserting that my parents are "compelling people to learn English". :) -Claudio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:30:59 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Yankonics May I suggest we drop the misleading suffix "-onics" in our discussions (whether serious or in jest) of dialects? If "Spanglonics" is the sound system of Spanish-English, it is obviously only one aspect of a complex and well-documented variety of English (see the many references cited here recently by Garland Bills). More importantly, the term is just one more (potentially) pejorative label in a package of already negative terms for negatively valued ways of speaking. Do we really want to encourage the use of such terms? Are we seriously doing "research" under the -onics rubric? I have just spent an entire week on Black English and Hispanic English in my undergraduate class on dialects, I've participated in a public forum on "Ebonics," and I've been interviewed by a local newspaper on the Ebonics controversy, and every single African American I've talked with in these settings (including the newspaper reporter) has expressed dislike for the -onics term. Why on earth would researchers want to extend the use of the suffix? I hope Rose Nash isn't really doing "research" on Spanglonics; on the other hand, I hope she isn't joking either. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:48:29 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) Some thoughts for Claudio: You asked for a reasoned argument in favor of the English-only legislation, and perhaps others would like one as well. I will attempt to oblige; because I think at heart you and I agree on most of the essentials here, but perhaps the media has done an inadequate job of explaining the logic and scope of these laws. 1) governments that are already deeply in debt will incur enormous expense in reprinting all official materials (ballots, tax forms, registration forms, licenses) in an indeterminate number of languages. Governments already deeply in debt have had no problem that I am aware of with translating materials into a few other languages--for users of languages other than some really high volume ones like Spanish, Mandarin, Polish, etc., governments typically allow interpreters to be used, e.g. in voting booths. 2) a public that is already heavily taxed will not want to pay for such programs. They already are paying, the programs are not expensive at all, and taxpayers in general are not complaining. 3) Most immigrants who have come to these shores were proud to learn English, and themselves encouraged their children to learn it as a sign of affection and gratitude for the nation that took them in and acknowledged their right to pursue life, liberty and happiness. What's the point? Immigrants today are still proud to learn English. They're still doing it. Perhaps we should just pass a law demanding that they express their gratitude to those of us whose parents got here first. 4) Producing native-language materials encourages immigrants not to learn English, thus denying themselves full access to jobs, capital, information, etc. in a majority English-speaking country. And that is a recipe for social unrest. Materials like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were reproduced in German and other languages, and it did help lead to social unrest I suppose. I doubt any of us would have it any other way, though. 5) English is de facto an official language anyway: this only insures that it will remain this way, and that current politically correct attempts to rewrite every facet of American culture will not jeopardize this. Here's the crux--it's aimed squarely at multi-culturalism. If Euro-American culture isn't strong enough to stand on its own against elements of other cultures, tough. This is the same old anti-immigrant rhetoric that rises from the muck periodically in American History. I'm sick of it. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:52:37 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: daddy-o Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was. It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father) more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:23:37 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: daddy-o Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was. It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father) more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research. The entry for this in the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang shows that it is rather widespread; we have thirteen cites from 1909 (the DARE cite) to 1980 in the sense 'a male lover, boyfriend, or husband, esp. the lover of a prostitute', and seven cites, mostly from blues songs, from 1923 (again DARE) to 1935, in direct address. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:09:00 -0500 From: Al Futrell awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: daddy-o On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was. It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father) more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research. The entry for this in the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang shows that it is rather widespread; we have thirteen cites from 1909 (the DARE cite) to 1980 in the sense 'a male lover, boyfriend, or husband, esp. the lover of a prostitute', and seven cites, mostly from blues songs, from 1923 (again DARE) to 1935, in direct address. I might also note that "daddy" was used among hoboes and boxmen to refer to what most of us would probably call a pederast. It is also used in many prisons similarly, but it often just refers to an older man taking care of a younger man -- sexual activity is usually part of the relationship. Al Futrell -- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:31:24 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Ebonics, Yankonics Alas, I am one of those of whom Beverly Flanigan disapproves, having tried to make fun of "Ebonics" and the -onics suffix. But I have my reasons, which go something like this. When I first subscribed to the ADS list I was disturbed to find reputable academics using the word "Ebonics" with respect, as if it were an acceptable linguistic term. It isn't. It is an appalling neologism that should be condemned outright by the academic community. I hope it is clear that saying that about "Ebonics" in no way comments on the social dialect the word attempts to describe, nor does it express a view as to whether that dialect should be used officially in schools or anywhere else. The criticism is of a word, nothing else. We are told that "Ebonics" is a blend of "ebony" and -"phonics." Okay, let's look at "ebony." The OED entry for the word has as one of its meanings (4a.): As the type of intense blackness. son of ebony: humorously = Negro. Also attrib., as in ebony complexion, skin, etc. Meaning 4b. is simply: A Negro. Melville uses Ebony in that sense in _Moby Dick_: "The old black came shambling along from his galley; this old Ebony floundered along." The OED also quotes Farmer's _Americanisms_ of 1889: "An ebony is a negro in common parlance." Did you notice that "humorously = Negro"? For "humorously" read "condescendingly, patronizingly, disparagingly, derogatively." And what of "-phonics"? Can anyone pretend for a moment that this means "social dialect"? Or did the inventor of this word mean it to apply only to the phonetic characteristics of black American speech? Of course he didn't. He was simply trying, with no justification whatsoever, to give a totally new meaning to an established word. All in all, then, "Ebonics" is a nonsensical creation, unnecessary in the first place because more appropriate terms already existed. Worst of all, it insults in itself the very people it most concerns. Beverly Flanigan asks whether anyone is "seriously doing research under the -onics rubric?" I sincerely hope not. But if enough people laugh at "Ebonics," by inventing similarly ridiculous terms, it may with any luck become impossible for anyone to use the word at all. And finally - I am mildly surprised that Beverly should have linked her remarks to "Yankonics," condemning that piece by implication. I thought it an excellently written spoof, very funny. So did the born-and-bred Bostonian friend to whom I sent it. Congratulations to Duane Campbell. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:56:59 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Anudda Bumpa Sticka from a correspondent in Minnesota: After Nixon's big Billy Graham embrace, at 15th Street Meeting in New York we printed up some bumper stickers, one of which I still have: Richard Nixon is a Graham Quaker. obADS? Lay perception of variation okay in jokey pronunciation. Best, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 370 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. conference announcement (creole languages) (2) 2. No problemo (4) 3. No problemo -Reply (2) 4. Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) 5. No subject given 6. Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) (2) 7. Yankonics & Spanglonics (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:17:42 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: conference announcement (creole languages) "In recent years, creole studies has increasingly returned to the question of creole genesis. Hall's conventional model of creolization as spontaneous language generation by a first generation of children has turned out to be too idealized and hardly tenable...." There goes everything I thought I knew about creole languages. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:52:44 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: conference announcement (creole languages) There goes everything I thought I knew about creole languages. Dan Goodman Sounds like Dan needs to attend the conference nd tell tose folks what the TRUTH really is, eh? :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 11:56:12 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo btw "Kein Problem" *is* heard in Germany but not as frequently as "Keine Angst," but since I was in an Amerikanisches Institute it may be a calque limited to germans studying English. In Cancun last year I was told by a guide that the Jamaicans say "No Problem" and we [mexicans] say "No Solution." -- _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: Fri 10-12 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:17:55 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: No problemo I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other languages have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much: In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is "Ningun problema" (where there might perhaps be a certain influence from English), which is, however, limited to a subset of contexts (and meanings) of all those corresponding to "No hay problema". Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive in many other varieties of Spanish. Best regards, Max E. On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, David Bergdahl wrote: btw "Kein Problem" *is* heard in Germany but not as frequently as "Keine Angst," but since I was in an Amerikanisches Institute it may be a calque limited to germans studying English. In Cancun last year I was told by a guide that the Jamaicans say "No Problem" and we [mexicans] say "No Solution." -- _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: Fri 10-12 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:55:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: No problemo -Reply Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX 0306.1517 I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other languages have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much: In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is "Ningun problema" [...]. Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive in many other varieties of Spanish. This sounds like a good candidate for the source of "no problemo": heard by non-Spanish-speaking anglophone Americans and reduced to the two obvious cognates, with the final /a/ changed to /o/ as described in previous posts as a long-standing change in English borrowings from Spanish. Enrique, what's the rhythm and stress like in the Cuban expression? Specifically, is "hay" [ay] stressed or not? This candidacy would be stronger if the stress is on "no" and "problema" than if "hay" is stressed. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:06:48 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument proving the merits of English Only. Especially, I'm still waiting for ANY argument on linguistic or sociolinguistic grounds... Meanwhile, a couple of points in response to Claudio: --Printing documents: On 9/27/95 the Washington Post reported the results of a study by the General Accounting Office on govt. documents printed in languages other than English. Of about 400,000 titles, the GAO found only 265, or 0.06%. 221 of these were in Spanish, 12 in French, and 17 in multiple languages; the other 15 were in 10 other languages, incl. Portuguese and Ukrainian. "The bulk of the titles concerned safety and health issues and explanations of Social Security programs" and tax advice, which the govt. is at pains to get everyone to comply with, and which many English Only sponsors consider legitimate. The cost is not listed, but ... --Pride in English is not a sensible motivation for legislation banning other languages. Should Texas ban the football teams of other states? Shouldn't we ban Chinese food too? A number of the other arguments were of this sort, either irrelevant to the issue of language legislation or without apparent logic or unsupported by any facts (e.g. the idea that foreign language materials lead to social unrest... on the other hand, maybe that's what caused the big fight in my high school Spanish class...) --this was yet another of the many occasions on which I've seen people say that English is our "de facto official language". Anyone who can say that with a straight face and still support English Only is a great argument against it, all by themselves... --I came to suspect part way through the reply that Mr. Salvucci is not familiar with any of the texts of the English Only legislation in question, and didn't read the LSA resolution any too carefully either, if he thinks it refers only to "private use". Am I imagining things, or hasn't the language of instruction in public schools been an issue in language legislation over the last 25 years? just to take one example... all in all, this is about what one usually sees from proponents of the policy, which makes it hard to understand why it is ever taken seriously on the grounds of logic rather than simple bias. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:09:01 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: No subject given A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Larry Horn wrote: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.ycc.yale.edu 0214.1436 Reminds me: why does it seem like so many SF writers, when inventing names, use an abundance of apostrophes and letters "K" and "Q"? Grant Barrett I hate to generalize in the absence of extensive empirical support, but having just seen Star Wars (Special Edition), I was reminded of the fact that aliens by and large certainly do seem to spend a lot of time vocalizing in the region of pharanxes, uvulas, and the extraterrestrial analogues thereof. ("I have no mouth and I must scream, so I guess I'll have to settle for clearing my throat a lot.") I think Marc Okrand's version of Klingon makes extensive use of ejectives, pharyngeals, laryngeals, and/or glottals as well. Okrand's Klingon has velar x, gamma, ng (including initial) uvular stop q and ejective qX glottal stop Other "dark"-sounding phonemes are retroflex S and D (but alveolar t and n) lax ([-ATR]?) I and epsilon (but tense u and o) Experience with the glottal stop, uvulars, velar fricatives was really helpful when I took Arabic! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:58:07 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) Has anybody else noticed the irony of this header? And I'm sure we all know that it doesn't cost any more to print a document that is written in a language other than English---the paper and ink cost the same, and the translation is often done by volunteers. If they were spending big money on it, some of us would probably be working as government translators. Last time I was unemployed and checked it out, there was very little need and the pay even worse than higher education. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:44:32 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: No problemo -Reply The expression sounds something like this: [nwajproblema], the main stress on the syllable [ble], the secondary stress on [nwaj]. With verbs like *haber*, *ser*, *estar*, in particular, *no* is regularly unstressed, "proclitic". Thus, "no+hay" results in [nwaj] or, in a slightly more careful pronunciation, in [noaj] (stress on [a], being [oa], in fact, a diphthong). There is no pause, by the way, between [nwaj] and [pro...], so there are two stress groups (no pause in between): [nwajpro][blema]. Another quite usual expression is "Sin problema(s)!", mostly as an answer concerning the adressee's health, state of affairs, work, etc. "Ningun problema" I think is most usual as an (affirmative) answer to a request (e.g.: "Do you think you could give me a hand with this work?" or "Do you think you can handle the task?"). "No hay problema" also covers this use, where, as I said before, is more usual than the former, at least in Cuba. Best regards, Max E. On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Mark Mandel wrote: Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX 0306.1517 I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other languages have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much: In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is "Ningun problema" [...]. Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive in many other varieties of Spanish. This sounds like a good candidate for the source of "no problemo": heard by non-Spanish-speaking anglophone Americans and reduced to the two obvious cognates, with the final /a/ changed to /o/ as described in previous posts as a long-standing change in English borrowings from Spanish. Enrique, what's the rhythm and stress like in the Cuban expression? Specifically, is "hay" [ay] stressed or not? This candidacy would be stronger if the stress is on "no" and "problema" than if "hay" is stressed. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:59:14 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics Beverly Flanigan, lighten up -- of course I was joking! How could anyone take these terms seriously? The story was funny, and I wanted to share it with colleagues who are not yet slaves to the Internet. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:46:06 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics I agree that the story could have been funny--EXCEPT for the fact that adding the suffix -onics and noting that the school board did NOT intend to ask for federal funds and would NOT force all teachers to learn Yankonics clearly alluded to the central points of the Oakland case mocked and parodied by the media and (alas) us. Had the story referred to "Yankee dialect" or "Yankee Talk" or "Down East Speech," and had it not made such obvious references interpretable only in the current sociopolitical context, I would have laughed too--I've collected and laughed at "East Enders" lexicon, Penn. Dutch Germanisms, and, yes, "How to Talk Minnesotan." But, as someone else pointed out on this list, in all these cases we're laughing at those who are "white like us." So, no, I didn't think the story as presented was funny. And no, I won't lighten up. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:20:26 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) I, for one, certainly have! It reminds me of the famous "SPEAK HINDI, YOUR NATIONAL LANGUAGE!", placed, if I recall correctly, on the front of New Delhi's Main Post Office... Ciao! M.E. On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote: Has anybody else noticed the irony of this header? And I'm sure we all know that it doesn't cost any more to print a document that is written in a language other than English---the paper and ink cost the same, and the translation is often done by volunteers. If they were spending big money on it, some of us would probably be working as government translators. Last time I was unemployed and checked it out, there was very little need and the pay even worse than higher education. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:40:13 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo "No problemo" would mean "I don't problematize" if 'problemar' meant 'to problematize'. Or would it be problematicize? Is all this problematic? Or is it troublesome? (Not 100% serious, but I've partially buried a usage nugget or two here.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:49:02 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Donald Lance observes: "No problemo" would mean "I don't problematize" if 'problemar' meant 'to problematize'. Or would it be problematicize? Is all this problematic? Or is it troublesome? (Not 100% serious, but I've partially buried a usage nugget or two here.) It occurs to me that "no problemo" bears the same relation to Spanish that "gazebo" does to Latin. Right, it's supposedly 'I shall gaze', or would be if gazere were a Latin verb (borrowed, presumably, from the Old Norse). Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 278 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fargo (2) 2. No problemo (a previous mistake) 3. Pro Anglica Sola 4. Henry Warkentyne 5. Legal help wanted: linguist or lexicographer 6. Mississippi on tape? 7. Yankonics & Spanglonics 8. Colleague Needs Help 9. No problemo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:53:50 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Fargo The other night I watched the movie Fargo. I thought it was pretty good, actually. I was wondering how true-to-life the dialects were. My only exposure to Minnesota speech is my aunt, and she speaks very similarly to the characters in the movie. But it's very possible that Hollywood was taking the stereotypical Minnesota accent and exploiting it, ya? Just curious, Aaron ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:33:59 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: No problemo (a previous mistake) In my previous reply to your answer about stress, rythm, etc., in "No hay problema", I erroneously wrote that "with verbs like *haber*, *ser*, *estar*", *no* could never carry the stress. This is not so (I'm sorry for having been too hasty in answering). The truth is that *followed by a word (verb form or other) beginning with a vowel*, the preceding *no*, in normal, unemphatic speech, will form a single syllable with the first syllable of the following word and the newly formed syllable will carry a secondary stress... Thus, "no estaba" [nw,es][t'a][ba], "no iria" [nw,i][r'i][a], etc. Notice that the phonetically "contrapted" form (to sort of join the merry comments on "contraption/contraction") MUST always carry a stress, albeit secondary, when a non-monosyllabic verb form follows (since these are not stressed on the first syllable and, wherever they may carry the stress, this will be the main stress of the whole construction). One could say that, since the secondary stress would fall on *no* in emphatic, careful and slow speech, when *no* "merges" with the following syllable and its [o] becomes a semiconsonant, the stress will automatically move onto the vowel of the "newly formed" syllable: (emph.) "escuche" / "no escuche" [es][k'u][ce] / [n,o] [es][k'u][ce] (unemph., but slower and/or more careful) "no escuche" [n,oes][k'u][ce] (unemph., but faster and/or less careful) "no escuche" [n,wes][k'uce] I must add this much: in other varieties of Spanish, instead of the "weakening" of the first vowel, it's the second vowel that weakens and becomes a semivowel or even disappears: "no iria" [n,oj][r'i][a] / "no escuche" [n,os][k'u][ce] (this, I think, is more typical of Mexico, as against the Cuban variety). However, in order for this to happen, as I see it, there must follow a CONSONANT, which isn't the case in "No hay problema", for the second vowel is here followed by a SEMIVOWEL, which necessarily will result in (not a diphthong, as I wrote earlier, but) a triphthong: [,waj]. I'm very sorry for my former mistake and, also, for this perhaps too long, clumsy and cumbersome explanation. I sincerely hope all "co-listers" and yourself will be indulgent. Best regards, Max Enrique ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:18:54 -0500 From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola Peter Patrick: If there is something in this law you claim I am neglecting, elighten me. I want you to share with us text, chapter and verse of the supposed laws that you say are "banning" other languages in anything but official contexts. I submit that if academics want to be alarmist about anything, they should be alarmist about being on the wrong end of budget cuts in coming years, which is a very real possibility and thank goodness for that. And please, show me where in that LSA excerpt you posted is there any indication that it refers to "official" use. As far as language use in the public schools, I'd rather dismantle federal-run schools altogether; they have proven to be utter failures. Private schools could teach in Hittite for all I care; if my money isn't involved, it ain't my business. But when you're reaching into my back pocket to teach anything to anyone that I think is silly, unnecessary, or offensive, you better believe I'm going to raise Cain. This "bias" charge is continually leveled, but never proven. Here's one last assignment: prove to this list that I am the biased, jingoist straw man that you need to see in me. Prove that I am not motivated by reason, compassion, or historical perspective, but by an insidious, vituperative racism which causes me to loathe immigrants and tremble in fear at the thought of "contaminating" American culture. Prove that I cower in shame at the "un-Americanness" in my background which damns me to a life of self-denial and zealotry. Lastly, Ellen Johnson expressed the opinion that the translation work will be done by volunteers. I wonder if these are the same kind of "volunteers" that the current Landlord of the White House uses in AmeriCorps, who by the way, are paid. I do not have much confidence in the government's ability to exercise fiscal restraint in this or any other matter. -Claudio ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:42:49 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Henry Warkentyne Message from Barbara Harris on Thursday, March 6: Henry Warkentyne died last week. He suffered a massive stroke a week ago today -- on the golf course, playing with a longtime friend, on the most beautiful day we've had in weeks -- and died on Friday evening without regaining consciousness. The funeral was yesterday in the University Interfaith Chapel, conducted by the United Church chaplain, and the place was packed -- a great tribute to Henry from the University community. He was in his 71st year. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:43:12 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Legal help wanted: linguist or lexicographer This just in! Please reply directly to her if you're interested. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------------------- Hello, Zippo Dot Com, DBA "Zippo's News Service, operates a group of commercial and public news servers on the Internet. We have been in operation since early 1995 providing; headline news, usenet news, feature stories, and section showcasing the art and music of Internet participants. At the end of October 1996, we were sued in Pennsylvania by Zippo Manufacturing Company, the producer of cigarette lighters, who were seeking; our domain name, trademark registrations, company assets, and all revenue generated since the service began. We sued Zippo Manufacturing in California, our home state. The case is posted at http://super.zippo.com and http://www.zippo.com. This is just one of the many, many suits launched by large companies against smaller established Internet companies, as the larger organizations seek a monopoly control of the use of common English words. In this case, Zippo Manufacturing already holds several domain names, such as "zippomfg.com" and "lighter", all tied to one small web site which is an ad for Zippo Lighters and an on-line store marketing lighters to the Internet. The word "zippo" was selected by our service as being synonymous with the words "nothing", or "zero". This was reflective of the financial resources we had when we initiated the service. The word has seen popular public use in speeches, magazines, movies, names of businesses, and a component of other company trademarks. In addition, we had several trademark searches conducted before we elected to use the word, and the trademark office had accepted numerous trademark applications from us, all inclusive of the word "zippo". We have done a considerable amount of research into the history and use of the word since the suit was filed, however, we are in need to an expert in, we believe, lexicography, who can conduct independent research of the word "zippo". We are interested in the words historical use, origins, current place in the English language and in documented public use of the word. A report on such findings would be in the form of an affidavit, and the individual preparing the report may serve as an expert witness, providing court testimony. We are not a large company, but we can afford to pay reasonable fees for time and effort. Thank you for your attention. Sincerely, Cindy Esco Zippo Dot Com Email: cindy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zippo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:43:35 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Mississippi on tape? If you can help this student, please do so. Post your answer to ADS-L as well, if you know of a good source! - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------------ I am a student of acting in New York City in search of an audio tape of a Mississippi dialect. The scene I'm in for school is "Summer and Smoke" by Tennessee Williams, and I'd love to learn about Mississippi and do the whole state justice with my voice. Any suggestions or ideas about how to proceed? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again! Geeda Searfoorce Temp-55582[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usccmail.lehman.com (212) 526-5582 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:49:53 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics Thanks to Beverly Flanigan for pointing out the difference between a harmless joke and a joke with a racist subtext. Can we not now stop this -onics/-bonics stuff and go on to something that has not been hashed and rehashed and rehashed again? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:09:35 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Colleague Needs Help I just received this message from a colleague in the College of Law. Can anybody help? Thanks, Bethany -----forwarded message----- I need to get a document printed out in Montreal, Canada, on Monday or Tuesday for delivery to an office there. If I can do this email or otherwise electronically, I will be able to have it in on time. If you know someone in Montreal, who uses email, and would be willing to share the name and email address, I would appreciate it. Believe it or not, Kinko's doesn't provide this service! Thanks for any help you can give. -----end message----- Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:08:28 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: No problemo Larry Horn observes: It occurs to me that "no problemo" bears the same relation to Spanish that "gazebo" does to Latin. Right, it's supposedly 'I shall gaze', or would be if gazere were a Latin verb (borrowed, presumably, from the Old Norse). Every time I see or hear 'gazebo' I have an echo of a character in a movie or play (i.e. tv version of a play) that I saw on tv about 1960. A sophisticated person had engaged a small-town builder to construct a gazebo on her estate. They discussed the matter several times. In each conversation, he said gaze-bo, several times. She would, seeming to be unaffected by his pronunciation, refer to the gazebo several times in the conversation, and he was completely unaffected by her subtle attempt to educate him. He spoke a rather "country" dialect, but not Southern as I vaguely recall. For what it's worth. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:36:36 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Fargo Ya, you bet! Although there was some exaggeration for comic effect, of course, in general the accents in "Fargo" were pretty good Minnesotan (to parody Garrison Keillor, whose principal scriptwriter and author of _How to Talk Minnesotan_ lives in my hometown). Of course, not _everyone_ from Minnesota talks like that. . . . Beverly (Olson) Flanigan ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 94 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pro Anglica Sola 2. Mississippi dialect (2) 3. Mississippi on tape? 4. Hypercorrection ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:17:48 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola Since you don't wanna talk about language, let's take it off the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:15:36 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Mississippi dialect TO Geeda Seerforce: Although it is not a tape that you can listen to, you may find the following book interesting and helpful: MANUAL OF AMERICAN DIALECTS FOR RADIO, STAGE, SCREEN AND TELEVISION by Lewis and Marguerite Shallett Herman (Theatre Arts Books, 333 Sixth Avenue, New York, 1947), Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-13238. The 30-page chapter on the Southern dialect of that era describes the three regional dialects, and covers such topics as lilt and stress, the Southern drawl, vowel changes, unstressed syllables, dropped syllables, reversed syllables, substituted syllables, important consonant changes, grammar changes, and common expressions. The numerous examples and drill words are given in a spelling-based phonetic transcription ("niOO" for new, "slOH:li" for slowly, "prAHbli" for probably), but there is a conversion table to IPA symbols on the inside front cover. Vincent Price wrote the Foreword. If you want to consult this book and can't find it in the library, send me your address and I can photocopy the chapter for you. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 13:13:24 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Mississippi on tape? I've contacted the questioner directly about DARE's Mississippi tapes, but others might be interested to know that our NEH project to duplicate our large collection of tapes and make them available for scholarly use is nearing completion. All the tapes have been duplicated, and we are in the process of compiling a detailed list with Informant data (age, sex, race, community, amount of education) and with subject categories reflecting the contents of the conversation. The list is taking longer than expected (surprise!); but if people know what region they are interested in investigating, they can look at the list of Informants in the intro to the first volume of DARE, see which ones made tapes, and then contact us about having duplicates made. The cost (for now) is $6.00 per cassette. Joan Hall Associate Editor, DARE 6125 Helen White Hall 600 N. Park St. Madison, WI 53706 (608) 263-2744 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:31:00 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Mississippi dialect TO Geeda Seerforce: Rose Nash wrote: Although it is not a tape that you can listen to, you may find the following book interesting and helpful: MANUAL OF AMERICAN DIALECTS FOR RADIO, STAGE, SCREEN AND TELEVISION by Lewis and Marguerite Shallett Herman (Theatre Arts Books, 333 Sixth Avenue, New York, 1947), Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 59-13238. The Hermans also did a book on "foreign dialects," same publisher but 1943. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:36:01 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Hypercorrection An poem, anonymous author, from THE CHERRY TREE: A COLLECTION OF POEMS CHOSEN BY GEOFFREY GRIGSON. Vanguard Press, 1959. Beg Parding 'Beg parding, Mrs. Harding, Is my kitting in your garding?' 'Is your kitting in my garding? Yes she is, and all alone, Chewing on a mutting bone.' ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 168 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ebonics, Yankonics 2. Another inauguration: April 4, Fairfax, Virginia 3. Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant 4. "punk" a la 60s 5. All purpose arguments (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:55:53 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Ebonics, Yankonics Beverly Flanigan asks whether anyone is "seriously doing research under the -onics rubric?" I sincerely hope not. But if enough people laugh at "Ebonics," by inventing similarly ridiculous terms, it may with any luck become impossible for anyone to use the word at all. Hopefully enough people will recognise it as a bad idea and we'll both get our wish. I think the reason why Rush Lindbaugh has been ridiculing it so much on his show is because he thinks it was a stupid idea to begin with; nothing to do with him being a racist(contrary to popular belief, conservative does not equal racist). This doesn't mean that individual teachers shouldn't use whatever experimental means necessary to get through to inner city kids. Maybe we should just get out of the way and let teachers teach rather than let Washington throw money at it.(Can't you tell I'm turning libertarian in my old age? :-)) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:24:19 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Another inauguration: April 4, Fairfax, Virginia Is there an ADS member who would like to represent us on the occasion of Dr. Alan G. Merten's inauguration as president of George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia, in the afternoon of Friday, April 4? Please let me know. You might like it! - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:18:47 -0500 From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET Subject: Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant Christopher R. Coolidge wrote: I think the reason why Rush Lindbaugh has been ridiculing [Ebonics] so much on his show is because he thinks it was a stupid idea to begin with; nothing to do with him being a racist On the contrary, I think Rush's being a racist *does* have something to do with his ridiculing Ebonics. (Is it just a *coincidence* all those die-hard Limbaugh fans I know *love* to use the N-word.) There is a distinct political agenda behind the misinformation in such so-called 'humor'. (contrary to popular belief, conservative does not equal racist). Q: Did you hear about the Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant? A: Everyone wanted to represent the State of Denial. (...or something like that.) The phrase "contrary to popular belief" speaks volumes about the victim-mentallity behind the Limbaugh Militia. They cry into their Budweiser together about their loss of power in a Democracy. - David W. Donnell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:36:05 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "punk" a la 60s In the early 1970s I interviewed a number of teenagers of both races in Asheville, NC, for a sociolinguistic project. The term "punk" very definitely meant 'homosexual' among the black kids in Asheville in those days. I specifically remember two kids telling me about a local minister, who they said was an decent guy aS LONG AS YOU DIDN'T GET LEFT ALONE WITH HIM, "cuz he is a punk and he will try to punk you." Of course, PUNK has been used in that way in prison slang for a long time. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:08:57 -0600 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: All purpose arguments I read Claudio's five reasons why we need an English-only law, and I was struck by the form of the arguments. They sound like they are from a set of templates for or against any ideas you don't like, and they could be circulated by some organization that opposes any attempt to treat humans with some kindness and flexibility, especially those who are not completely involved in the dominant culture. I could imagine, for example, that the arguments, with a few changes of nouns, could have been used against the building of ramps on buildings for people in wheelchairs, in fact, most of the ADA ideas: it costs too much; we are taxed too much already; they (the disabled) should try to get along and do the best they can (after all, we let them live with us, don't we?); giving them advantages the rest don't have is a recipe for social unrest; be practical -- let them adjust to the status quo. And so on. Indeed, if as Claudio says, English is the de facto language, then it needs no defense. To do so would be redundant. One argument being used in Wisconsin by the son-of-an-immigrant legislator is that people SHOULD be forced to learn the language of the dominant culture. His parents, it seems, were not forced enough and continued to speak broken English. Yet the legislature has refused to provide more funds for ESL programs to help people move into English more quickly. It's funny that they can't put their money where their mouths are. They are long on sticks and short on carrots. akra Al Krahn ~ Milwaukee Area Technical College ~ 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 ~ 414/ W297-6519/ F297-7990 krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us ~ Owner PUNCT-L, a mailing list for discussing punctuation. [{:-},./-_(;-/)] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:00:14 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: All purpose arguments Albert E. Krahn wrote: I could imagine, for example, that the arguments, with a few changes of nouns, could have been used against the building of ramps on buildings for people in wheelchairs Sounds about right to me. In my small town (4500 people) we had to install a 150,000 dollar elevator in our landmark 1890 court house. Gets used maybe once a month to travel 18 feet. Anyone want to figure out the milage cost for that? Better still. I have been involved (until the following incident occurred) in the restoration of an 1884 opera house into a performing arts center. Pretty proud of it. A couple of years ago I was called to write a grant application for 70 grand. Had to be done fast. The money was waiting, and it had to be spent on some kind of handicap access in an arts context. One of those agencies, faced with the end of the fiscal year, had contacted us and asked us to take the money. Please. There is now an elevator from the understage dressing rooms to the stage in this 300 seat theatre in this 4500 population town in case some disabled dancer comes along. But anyway, about ESL. One argument being used in Wisconsin by the son-of-an-immigrant legislator is that people SHOULD be forced to learn the language of the dominant culture. His parents, it seems, were not forced enough and continued to speak broken English. Yet the legislature has refused to provide more funds for ESL programs to help I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it. There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is failing. You figure it out. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can keep my same ISP ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 There are 34 messages totalling 1611 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Questions about immigrants' learning of English (3) 2. No subject given (2) 3. your mail 4. Spanglish usage (4) 5. Re[2]: Questions about immigrants' learning of English 6. Spanglish usage (fwd) (2) 7. Don't "Kick Them Off" (8) 8. GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot' 9. Fwd: Writing Award (2) 10. GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot' -Reply 11. non-members 12. Fargo (2) 13. Mencken's American Language (2) 14. New Subscriber Rules 15. Give me a break, etc 16. Prosodic features of dialect 17. Lurking ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:08:59 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: Questions about immigrants' learning of English A lot of the discussion about English-only legislation (vs providing at least some services for immigrants in their native language) seems to be making some fairly strong assumptions about the extent to which adult immigrants learn English in the absence of federally funded programs. To get the obvious out of the way, my personal belief is that a lot of English-only proposals reflect at best generalized frustration with the current mix in the melting pot and at worst a pernicious racism. However, there's still a question lurking out there that I haven't seen addressed, at least in the discussions on this list. And that is: to what extent do adult working class immigrants acquire competence in spoken English, let along in written English of the sort necessary to cope with written forms? Based on what I know of the Jewish immigrant experience in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (in part from stories told in my own family), my suspicion is that members of the immigrating generation often did not achieve any degree of competence in English. For instance, I remember being told (perhaps erroneously) that NYC subway trains had distinctive patterns of colored lights at the front for the benefit of riders who could not read the information about line and destination station that also appeared/s on each train. The various Yiddish newspapers had advice columns that included letters advising readers on coping with various aspects of life in _die goldene medine_, including such problems as having to have one's small children interpret in a variety of socially inappropriate situations (negotiations with landlord, medical examinations) and then having them obey one. Given the long hours that many immigrants worked, often in sweatshops with immigrants from the same background, it seems unlikely that they would have had time for night school English classes. So, when people claim that their ancestors learned English when they came to this country, without the aid of government programs, I have to wonder who their ancestors were, whether they were literate at home, and how old they were when they came here. It also seems to me that this is an area that can be researched; there are diaries available, records from various settlement houses, etc, and that this research could easily inform present debate. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:53:14 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Questions about immigrants' learning of English I think the confusion may lie in the difference between children learning English and adults doing so. The research I have seen insists that today's non-English speaking children are skipping the bilingual stage that has usually been the intermediary between generations (monolingual L-1 parents, bilingual children, monolingual L-2 grandchildren). I don't think there's too much reported on what adults do. However, Dorothy Waggoner has some new stats for adults (based on the 1990 Census) which show that the longer one is in the US, the better one's spoken English tends to be (this is based on self-reporting, of course). I don't think a lot of English gets learned thru adult ESL programs. Rather it is by assimilation, on the job, in the shops, playgrounds, socializing, and so forth. IE, in the natural situations one would expect it to occur. This is not to say that school doesn't help. Clearly it can. Dennis ___ Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, Illinois 61801 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:38:08 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: No subject given Are you guys still for having non-ADS memebrs on the list? If unsupported crap like the following continues to appear, how can we get any linguistics (of any sort) done here? I don't know who wrote this junk, but note that no piece of it is supported by any of the common-knowldge stuff of the history of language status and variety in the USA For example: 1) There certainly were ESL programs in early waves of immigration 2) Everybody who came in the good old days did not learn English 3) What is the 'it' that government dollars are going into which is such an abject failure? Not English teaching (whether in bilingual propgrams or out). We are losing support for ESL in school funding (something you would think English Only yahoos would support). But the stuff I have reviewed has got so much junk in it that it is not worth responding to (although I would not fault my freind Peter Patrick for trying). I used ot think that the 'folk linguist9ic' value of this junk was worth keeping people on for. But I see enough in the 'opinion' columns and hear quite enough around me. Let's kick them off and get back to linguisticss. That's what this list is for. And yes, lest someone supect that I do not think public policy and language use facts constitute valid linguistic discussion topics, I should hasten to point out that I I do. But there is a prerequisite of linguistic sophistication to make those discussions worthwhile. Such stuff as the below (and other now enormous amounts of stuff which I have just read with horror after a trip) have no such sophistication. They represent political expression by 'true believers' for whom linguistic facts (whether of a cognitive OR social nature) have no value. Stop wasting my time with this thinly-veiled racist, ethnocentric, ignorant stuff. I can buy any piece of trash by Bell Bennett if I need a dose of uninformed opinion disguised as resonable and/or academic discourse. Kick 'em off, kick 'em off, kick 'em off!! dInIs (the unamused linguist) I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it. There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is failing. You figure it out. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:58:00 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: No subject given Dennis R. Preston wrote: Are you guys still for having non-ADS memebrs on the list? If unsupported crap like the following continues to appear, how can we get any linguistics (of any sort) done here? Thank you for your thoughtful response. It gives us non-academics a standard to strive for. 1) There certainly were ESL programs in early waves of immigration Since you kindly reprinted below the portions to which you respond, then you can see that I did not say that there were no ESL programs in early waves of immigration. I believe this is called the straw man falicy.I said that there were no GOVERNMENT FUNDED ESL programs. Admittedly I did not research turn-or-the-century federal budgets, but from my knowledge of the nature of our government at that time I suspect I would find nothing above the most local level, and even that scant except for immigration centers. 2) Everybody who came in the good old days did not learn English Again, please read the included fragment of my post. I did not say all immigrants learned English. I said MOST NEW AMERICANS. My understanding is that a basic competency in English was a requirement for citizenship. 3) What is the 'it' that government dollars are going into which is such an abject failure? The rules regarding antecedents are fairly straightforward and followed in the passage to which you refer. I have reread it and can find nothing other than "ESL programs" to which the "it" might refer. There is obviously a problem here either with basic writing skills or with basic reading skills. I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it. There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is failing. You figure it out. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ Just a dumb Old Eli who earns his living writing ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:37:21 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: your mail I'm not a member of ADS, but I agree with the spirit of your complaints, since I, too, am a linguist. I don't think "kickin' us (nonADSers) off" is fair or --most important-- useful to your purposes. How about setting RESTRICTIONS to participants (of the kind you mention)? Best regards, Max E. Figueroa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:58:24 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Spanglish usage This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes. On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure' Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely translate as "Give me a chance [to win]." I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you Spanglophiles out there come across this usage? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:08:18 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Spanglish usage rose nash said: This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes. On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure' Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely translate as "Give me a chance [to win]." I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you Spanglophiles out there come across this usage? this is not spanglophilia, but anglophilia, but i hope it's of interest nonetheless. my first impression is not necessarily that 'break' is borrowed into spanish with only one of its possible meanings (and then weirdly used in an idiom that usually gets another sense), but that it's a bit of code-switching which expects the audience to know enough about the word "break" in english to get the pun. i agree that "gimme a break" usually has the meaning of "give me relief from something ridiculous", but "break" does have the 'chance/opportunity' sense as well, as in "i'm just waiting for my big break." so, if i were to see "give me a break" on an english poster for a contest, i'd understand "break" with the opportunity sense just like the grocer did. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:41:24 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Questions about immigrants' learning of English I have read (with statistical evidence to back it up) that immigrants today are not learning English any slower than previous immigrants. More Spanish is spoken today due to new immigration and, maybe?, bilingualism, but there is not less English-learning going on. I would like to have some statistics on this myself, having forgotten where I read this even, not to mention the numbers themselves! For linguists on the list (or anyone wishing to read an article written at graduate student/ scholarly level) I would recommend heartily Judith Rodby's article "A Polyphony of Voices: The Dialectics of Linguistic Unity and Diversity in the 20th century US" in Machan and Scott, English in its Social Context (includes BEV and discusses social forces that are central to issues of language change). For more accessible reading, any of journalist James Crawford's books and essays are excellent. I think the rate of acquisition by the first generation varies by ethnic group and era, though the second generation almost always speaks English fluently. Rodby says that when Mexicans were able to find permanent jobs [as opp. to temporary migratory work which they have been "imported" to do for years], send their children to school, and interact with English speakers they too shifted to English. Villanueva in his autobiography *Bootstraps: From an American Academic of Color* (NCTE; so postmodern it is almost impossible to read), distinguishes between groups that came here voluntarily and those who didn't, e.g. with ancestors who became Americans due to slavery or imperialism (SW, Puerto Rico). An essay I read by Jim Cummins also notes a difference btw those who have only (well..) lg to contend with and those who must contend with alienation from racial prejudice as well. Certainly age plays a part. Cubans differed from other Hispanic groups (at least pre-Mariel) in being mostly middle-to-upper-class, light-skinned, and educated and they learned English very quickly due to social and ideological motivations to assimilate (very pro-American, anti-Communist). But as an immigration officer in Miami for a year, I interviewed numerous little old ladies returning from Cuba (who could visit their families for a month, even though I'm not allowed to vacation for a week there) with their US Passports proudly in hand who hardly spoke a word of English. Their social networks were limited to their neighborhoods in Hialeah, etc. Why should they be forced to learn English to "show their gratitude"? Sociolinguistic studies of the effects of networks and participation therein could benefit a lot from studying such patterns of language shift. Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:11:37 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: Spanglish usage (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:06:19 -0700 (MST) From: Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]capomo.uson.mx To: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Subject: Re: Spanglish usage (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:02:05 -0700 (MST) From: Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]capomo.uson.mx To: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Spanglish usage I imagine "give me a break" could be felt and freely translated into Spanish as "dame un respiro" (which perfectly meets both the litteral and the figurative meanings in English), expression which, in its turn, can be "felt" as closer to "gimme a chance". By the way, couldn't "gimme a chance!" and "gimme a break!" function as synonyms in certain cases? For example, when asking someone to "get off one's back", to stop annoying you? MF On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Rose Nash wrote: This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes. On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure' Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely translate as "Give me a chance [to win]." I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you Spanglophiles out there come across this usage? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:11:24 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: Spanglish usage (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 12:04:42 -0700 (MST) From: Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]capomo.uson.mx To: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Spanglish usage Yes, you're right. For instance, a break of good luck. See also what I answered to Rose (I'm forwarding it to you). Best regards, MF On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: rose nash said: This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes. On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure' Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely translate as "Give me a chance [to win]." I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you Spanglophiles out there come across this usage? this is not spanglophilia, but anglophilia, but i hope it's of interest nonetheless. my first impression is not necessarily that 'break' is borrowed into spanish with only one of its possible meanings (and then weirdly used in an idiom that usually gets another sense), but that it's a bit of code-switching which expects the audience to know enough about the word "break" in english to get the pun. i agree that "gimme a break" usually has the meaning of "give me relief from something ridiculous", but "break" does have the 'chance/opportunity' sense as well, as in "i'm just waiting for my big break." so, if i were to see "give me a break" on an english poster for a contest, i'd understand "break" with the opportunity sense just like the grocer did. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:52:48 -0500 From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET Subject: Re: Spanglish usage M. Lynne Murphy but "break" does have the 'chance/opportunity' sense as well, as in "i'm just waiting for my big break." so, if i were to see "give me a break" on an english poster for a contest, i'd understand "break" with the opportunity sense just like the grocer did. "I'm just waiting for my *lucky* break" might also be a common usage. David W. Donnell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:28:30 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Spanglish usage Yes, and a great deal of successful advertising exploits the interpretive potential/s of such 'double' or 'multiple' voicing. Maggie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, David W. Donnell wrote: M. Lynne Murphy but "break" does have the 'chance/opportunity' sense as well, as in "i'm just waiting for my big break." so, if i were to see "give me a break" on an english poster for a contest, i'd understand "break" with the opportunity sense just like the grocer did. "I'm just waiting for my *lucky* break" might also be a common usage. David W. Donnell ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:37:49 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Don't "Kick Them Off" I don't agree with Dennis Preston that nonlinguists should be "kicked off" ADS-L. I have had my share of disagreements with "dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net," and I frankly wonder sometimes (probably unjustly) if he is capable of listening to the sound of anybody's voice other than his own (though I confess to occasional bouts of intellectual arrogance myself), but I keep thinking that surely the dialogue, such as it is, at least offers the POSSIBILITY of somebody learning something--better that 'they' read what we say and not limit their education to the anti-intellectual propaganda of the editorial pages THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and THE WASHINGTON TIMES. In others words, we have an educational duty to the unenlightened public, especially those who have been brainwashed by the conventional nonacademic wisdom that rules this great nation. At least Mr. C and a few others who send us their zingers are willing to talk and once in a while actually entertain an unconventional idea, however briefly--which is more than one can say for most of what Mr. Mencken called the boobwazee. So--leave 'em on. Maybe it will do them good. Who knows, maybe it will even occasionally do US good, brilliant minds and knowers of the truth that we are! Anyway, how would you get them off? Make 'em pass a quiz in How to Think Like a Linguistics Professor? I do wish that all ADS-L-ers would pay dues and join the parent organization, but I don't think that ADS-L should be limited to those who can pay dues. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:42:21 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot' someone writes, ". . . if modern 'gay' is derived from '19th cent. 'gay = harlot, immoral' . . ." NO WAY!!!! Modern American GAY 'homosexual' absolutely DOES NOT derive from the Victorian slang word for prostitute. NO WAY!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 15:47:28 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Writing Award Can you help with this? You may have to ask Megan--she put out the contest announcement. Who judges the contest? Who wrote the regulations? Who has the power to change the regulations? --------------------- Forwarded message: From: ms9[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu (Melissa Solomon) To: Ronbutters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com (Ron Butters) Date: 97-03-10 12:21:46 EST Ron, As per our telephone conversation this morning, please let me know if it is possible to submit a non-fiction essay by a FOCUS UWC 7.27 student to the English department's non-fiction writing award competition. The essay is a humorous re-telling of history surrounding the Duke Chapel tower, complete with (fascinating and improbable) incidents that have taken place in the tower. The student, David Bediz, did primary research in the Duke University Archives to complete it. It is a remarkable piece of writing and deserves the chance to be recognized. Thank you. Melissa Solomon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:11:28 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot' -Reply Ron Butters says vehemently: someone writes, ". . . if modern 'gay' is derived from '19th cent. 'gay = harlot, immoral' . . ." NO WAY!!!! Modern American GAY 'homosexual' absolutely DOES NOT derive from the Victorian slang word for prostitute. NO WAY!!! All right, Ron, we're willing to believe you! But some data -- cites, related usages, whatever -- would be helpful, not to mention more convincing. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:36:34 -0800 From: "Barbara D. Nelson" bdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTBREW.COM Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D58.1B4C79E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please don't "kick them off" as "them" includes me. I am not a linguist but do enjoy words. Have been lurking for several months and believe this is the first time I've replied or offered an opinion. However, I do enjoy listening to all of you and would miss the conversations, arguments and repartee if you make me go away. Barbara Nelson -----Original Message----- From: Ron Butters [SMTP:RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, March 10, 1997 12:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Don't "Kick Them Off" I don't agree with Dennis Preston that nonlinguists should be "kicked off" ADS-L. I have had my share of disagreements with "dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net," and I frankly wonder sometimes (probably unjustly) if he is capable of listening to the sound of anybody's voice other than his own (though I confess to occasional bouts of intellectual arrogance myself), but I keep thinking that surely the dialogue, such as it is, at least offers the POSSIBILITY of somebody learning something--better that 'they' read what we say and not limit their education to the anti-intellectual propaganda of the editorial pages THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and THE WASHINGTON TIMES. In others words, we have an educational duty to the unenlightened public, especially those who have been brainwashed by the conventional nonacademic wisdom that rules this great nation. At least Mr. C and a few others who send us their zingers are willing to talk and once in a while actually entertain an unconventional idea, however briefly--which is more than one can say for most of what Mr. Mencken called the boobwazee. So--leave 'em on. Maybe it will do them good. Who knows, maybe it will even occasionally do US good, brilliant minds and knowers of the truth that we are! Anyway, how would you get them off? Make 'em pass a quiz in How to Think Like a Linguistics Professor? I do wish that all ADS-L-ers would pay dues and join the parent organization, but I don't think that ADS-L should be limited to those who can pay dues. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D58.1B4C79E0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjEVAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcA GAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAuAEAAAEAAAAQ AAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAEFt ZXJpY2FuIERpYWxl Y3QgU29jaWV0eQBTTVRQAEFEUy1MQFVHQS5DQy5VR0EuRURVAAAeAAIwAQAAA AUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFQAAAEFEUy1MQFVHQS5DQy5VR0EuRURVAAAAAAMAFQwBAA AAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEw AQAAABsAAAAnQW1lcmljYW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5JwAAAgELMAEAAAAaAA AAU01UUDpBRFMt TEBVR0EuQ0MuVUdBLkVEVQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABk AAABBbWVyaWNhbiBE aWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkAAAAAAgH3XwEAAABLAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3Q EPVAIAAAAAQW1l cmljYW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5AFNNVFAAQURTLUxAVUdBLkNDLlVHQS5FRFU AAAMA/V8BAAAA 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Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" Dear ADS-Lers While "ADS-L is a forum for the exchange of ideas and information by members of the American Dialect Society," which I too encourage everyone to join, I do not have the time to compare the list of members of ADS with the list of members of this discussion group (which number 380) and remove those who are not members of ADS, even if I had the inclination, which I dont. I suspect Jesse feels the same, although I wont speak directly for him. I have been concerned somewhat with the contentious postings lately, but it is my hope that these matters will work themselves out naturally without the heavy handedness of Dennis' suggestion. The list could move to request for membership rather than open subscription, but I don't think that is a good idea either (I'd have to learn how to do that, for one!) But I will listen to the voice of the people if they speak otherwise. Sincerely, One of the listowners, Who suffers fools lightly being occasionally one himself, Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:15:40 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: non-members To Mr. Dennis Preston: Well, excuuuuuuuse me for lurking! Peggy Smith (a high school English/theatre/speech teacher just trying to learn a thing or two.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:21:25 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" Bologna, Ron. Big waste of time. Yeah, good idea. Give 'em a test. Let's see, if they think that 'greed' as a technical term is just one of the credos of the Republican Party, then we've got 'em and out they go (just like the stupid knights at the bridge in Monty Python's Holy Grail). The most recent nonsense (whose I happily forget) contained absolutely no reference to historical linguistic (or even political) facts whatsoever. Its author simply pukes up popular opinion, all of which we have full access too. And, as you yourself admit in what follows, these unsubstantiated, purely political meanderings are not the products of minds which could be convinced by data, reference to careful studies (note EJ's recent post), and the like. Moreover, their presence has caused us to become wary of even one another, in ways which I never recall happening in our face-to-face encounters, when we are all sure of our basic credentials, which, pronbably to the amazement of innocent and linguistically ignorant bystanders, does not necessarily include membership in the socialist workers' party. Kick 'em off. (Well, maybe they could stay if they pay; then I would just grunt and ignore them like I do 90% of the time - until my Hungarian rises out of control). dInIs, the arrogant linguist I don't agree with Dennis Preston that nonlinguists should be "kicked off" ADS-L. I have had my share of disagreements with "dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net," and I frankly wonder sometimes (probably unjustly) if he is capable of listening to the sound of anybody's voice other than his own (though I confess to occasional bouts of intellectual arrogance myself), but I keep thinking that surely the dialogue, such as it is, at least offers the POSSIBILITY of somebody learning something--better that 'they' read what we say and not limit their education to the anti-intellectual propaganda of the editorial pages THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and THE WASHINGTON TIMES. In others words, we have an educational duty to the unenlightened public, especially those who have been brainwashed by the conventional nonacademic wisdom that rules this great nation. At least Mr. C and a few others who send us their zingers are willing to talk and once in a while actually entertain an unconventional idea, however briefly--which is more than one can say for most of what Mr. Mencken called the boobwazee. So--leave 'em on. Maybe it will do them good. Who knows, maybe it will even occasionally do US good, brilliant minds and knowers of the truth that we are! Anyway, how would you get them off? Make 'em pass a quiz in How to Think Like a Linguistics Professor? I do wish that all ADS-L-ers would pay dues and join the parent organization, but I don't think that ADS-L should be limited to those who can pay dues. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:13:41 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Fargo On Fri, 7 Mar 1997, Aaron Drews wrote: The other night I watched the movie Fargo. I thought it was pretty good, actually. I was wondering how true-to-life the dialects were. My only exposure to Minnesota speech is my aunt, and she speaks very similarly to the characters in the movie. But it's very possible that Hollywood was taking the stereotypical Minnesota accent and exploiting it, ya? Just curious, Aaron Garrison Keillor's radio program on public radio is a pretty good indicator of regional Minnesota speech. I have several friends in the Minneapolis area as well, and I can attest from personal experience that people whose family has lived in rural Minnesota for several generations do actually speak that way, though you can guarantee that Hollywood won't get it entirely right. Fargo's definitely in the ballpark though. (Actually, Fargo was filmed in Brainerd, MN, about an hour's drive away) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:27:08 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Fwd: Writing Award Ron, What is this junk? Aren't you paying attention to where you send your mail? Let's kick Ron off too! Kick 'em all off. dInIs, the happy-go-lucky one Can you help with this? You may have to ask Megan--she put out the contest announcement. Who judges the contest? Who wrote the regulations? Who has the power to change the regulations? --------------------- Forwarded message: From: ms9[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu (Melissa Solomon) To: Ronbutters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com (Ron Butters) Date: 97-03-10 12:21:46 EST Ron, As per our telephone conversation this morning, please let me know if it is possible to submit a non-fiction essay by a FOCUS UWC 7.27 student to the English department's non-fiction writing award competition. The essay is a humorous re-telling of history surrounding the Duke Chapel tower, complete with (fascinating and improbable) incidents that have taken place in the tower. The student, David Bediz, did primary research in the Duke University Archives to complete it. It is a remarkable piece of writing and deserves the chance to be recognized. Thank you. Melissa Solomon Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:32:25 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" Barbara, We are delighted to have you lurk there, particularly since, apparently recognizing the fact that you do not belong to the professional group having a discussion, you do not offer 'common-sense' or worse sorts of comments. In my opinion, however, if you really like lurking, you should be ashamed not to be a member of the American Dialect Society; you would get to read even neater stuff than appears here (and no old cruds like me would be screaming to kick you off). dInIs ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D58.1B4C79E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please don't "kick them off" as "them" includes me. I am not a linguist but do enjoy words. Have been lurking for several months and believe this is the first time I've replied or offered an opinion. However, I do enjoy listening to all of you and would miss the conversations, arguments and repartee if you make me go away. Barbara Nelson -----Original Message----- From: Ron Butters [SMTP:RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, March 10, 1997 12:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Don't "Kick Them Off" I don't agree with Dennis Preston that nonlinguists should be "kicked off" ADS-L. I have had my share of disagreements with "dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net," and I frankly wonder sometimes (probably unjustly) if he is capable of listening to the sound of anybody's voice other than his own (though I confess to occasional bouts of intellectual arrogance myself), but I keep thinking that surely the dialogue, such as it is, at least offers the POSSIBILITY of somebody learning something--better that 'they' read what we say and not limit their education to the anti-intellectual propaganda of the editorial pages THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and THE WASHINGTON TIMES. In others words, we have an educational duty to the unenlightened public, especially those who have been brainwashed by the conventional nonacademic wisdom that rules this great nation. At least Mr. C and a few others who send us their zingers are willing to talk and once in a while actually entertain an unconventional idea, however briefly--which is more than one can say for most of what Mr. Mencken called the boobwazee. So--leave 'em on. Maybe it will do them good. Who knows, maybe it will even occasionally do US good, brilliant minds and knowers of the truth that we are! Anyway, how would you get them off? Make 'em pass a quiz in How to Think Like a Linguistics Professor? 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Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:45:05 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Fargo my assessment of Fargo? Pulp Fiction meets A Prairie Home Companion. As for Trainspotting. . . . what is trainspotting, actually? Dennis (who seems not to be getting multiple posts today! hooray!) Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, IL 61801 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 16:45:05 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" dEnIs here, or as my midwestern spouse insists I say it, dAnIs, not dInIs: I've been getting interested in how the new technology of ecommunication affects our ways of determining validity and authenticity. It seems to me the current debate on ADS-L is a good example of a subset of this problem: ADS has been an open list since its inception. But as more and more newcomers enter ecommunication, they begin to participate in open lists, not only lurking but contributing. One common reaction from oldtimers is the resentment of newbies. Add the problem of specialization into the mix, and open hostility may result. A list can always go closed. That is for the listowner to decide, or for ADSers, I suppose. I don't see a real advantage to that, since for me privacy is not an overriding consideration in using discussion lists. For privacy, such as it is, I use direct email. But even that is never entirely private, since Sysops always have access to our transactions. And since "annoying posts" (which are as likely to come from members as from outsiders) can easily be screened, I don't find them annoying either. We are all off-topic, profoundly ignInt, and so forth, some of the time. One advantage for staying open, of course, is to attract new members to the American Dialect Society. I'm not sure how many have joined through this route (any figures, AAllan?), but if our criteria for ADS membership are interest and ability to pay our very cheap dues, and our mission involves not just chumminess but education, then again I'm for openness. If someone is being a deliberate bozo, ignore them and they tend to go away. If someone wants to know, and to talk, then by all means let's us talk. Sorry if I'm wasting your bandwidth. Dennis _____ Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, IL 61801 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:48:53 -0800 From: "Barbara D. Nelson" bdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTBREW.COM Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D62.3362F720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dennis Preston: I am not a member as I am retired, housebound, and short on funds. There are times when a little "common sense" couldn't hurt! Barbara This is twice! -----Original Message----- From: Dennis R. Preston [SMTP:preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU] Sent: Monday, March 10, 1997 1:32 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" Barbara, We are delighted to have you lurk there, particularly since, apparently recognizing the fact that you do not belong to the professional group having a discussion, you do not offer 'common-sense' or worse sorts of comments. In my opinion, however, if you really like lurking, you should be ashamed not to be a member of the American Dialect Society; you would get to read even neater stuff than appears here (and no old cruds like me would be screaming to kick you off). dInIs ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D58.1B4C79E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please don't "kick them off" as "them" includes me. I am not a linguist but do enjoy words. Have been lurking for several months and believe this is the first time I've replied or offered an opinion. However, I do enjoy listening to all of you and would miss the conversations, arguments and repartee if you make me go away. Barbara Nelson -----Original Message----- From: Ron Butters [SMTP:RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] Sent: Monday, March 10, 1997 12:38 PM To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Don't "Kick Them Off" I don't agree with Dennis Preston that nonlinguists should be "kicked off" ADS-L. I have had my share of disagreements with "dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net," and I frankly wonder sometimes (probably unjustly) if he is capable of listening to the sound of anybody's voice other than his own (though I confess to occasional bouts of intellectual arrogance myself), but I keep thinking that surely the dialogue, such as it is, at least offers the POSSIBILITY of somebody learning something--better that 'they' read what we say and not limit their education to the anti-intellectual propaganda of the editorial pages THE WALL STREET JOURNAL and THE WASHINGTON TIMES. In others words, we have an educational duty to the unenlightened public, especially those who have been brainwashed by the conventional nonacademic wisdom that rules this great nation. At least Mr. C and a few others who send us their zingers are willing to talk and once in a while actually entertain an unconventional idea, however briefly--which is more than one can say for most of what Mr. Mencken called the boobwazee. So--leave 'em on. Maybe it will do them good. Who knows, maybe it will even occasionally do US good, brilliant minds and knowers of the truth that we are! Anyway, how would you get them off? Make 'em pass a quiz in How to Think Like a Linguistics Professor? 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Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC2D62.3362F720 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IgUWAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcA GAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAuAEAAAEAAAAQ AAAAAwAAMAMAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAASwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAEFt ZXJpY2FuIERpYWxl Y3QgU29jaWV0eQBTTVRQAEFEUy1MQFVHQS5DQy5VR0EuRURVAAAeAAIwAQAAA AUAAABTTVRQAAAA AB4AAzABAAAAFQAAAEFEUy1MQFVHQS5DQy5VR0EuRURVAAAAAAMAFQwBAA AAAwD+DwYAAAAeAAEw AQAAABsAAAAnQW1lcmljYW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5JwAAAgELMAEAAAAaAA AAU01UUDpBRFMt TEBVR0EuQ0MuVUdBLkVEVQAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAAeAPZfAQAAABk AAABBbWVyaWNhbiBE aWFsZWN0IFNvY2lldHkAAAAAAgH3XwEAAABLAAAAAAAAAIErH6S+oxAZnW4A3Q EPVAIAAAAAQW1l cmljYW4gRGlhbGVjdCBTb2NpZXR5AFNNVFAAQURTLUxAVUdBLkNDLlVHQS5FRFU AAAMA/V8BAAAA 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copy of Mencken's American Language, but I'm not sure if there's a particular edition I should buy. A couple of the used bookstores here in New York have copies. The copies at Gryphon are the like fifth edition or something plus the two separate addendum volumes released with it. Is there a complete all-in-one volume I should be on the lookout for? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:08:42 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: New Subscriber Rules Before new subscribers can be added to the ADS List, they must meet the following requirements. These rules go into effect immediately. 1. Define mangel-wurzel and explain how to extract sugar from it. Extra points if you can send us a soup recipe. 2. Explain what "Dey teef meh quats dem" means to Crucians. You automatically become a qualified ADS-L subscriber if you offer to fund a "fact-finding" mission to the appropriate part of the Caribbean and take at least 20 current members with you. 3. Agree to not use the suffix -onics in any post. 4. Agree to refrain from encouraging Barry Popik from posting another dialog with famous people, dead or alive, he has never met. 5. Explain: What are sulfa powders and which of the following is responsible for their demise: Big Business, Big Government, Big Bird, Media Elite, Silent Majority or Moral Majority? 6. Explain: Which end of the body does a stellectomy administer to and why? 7. Satisfactorily explain why "flammable" and "inflammable" are not synonymous. 8. Explain: Who is Jesse T. Sheidlower and why is his latest reference work not included in many school libraries? 9. Explain: Why doesn't one give gifts of Scotch to a shikker? 10. Develop and evangelize a successful way of expressing emotions, gestures and nuance via email without using smilies or emoticons. 11. Explain: Was there really anything wrong with Ford Pintos or was it the shape of the car people disliked? 12. Please explain why retailers like the phrase "March Madness", why radio stations like the word "Rocktober", why newspapers like the headline "Send in the Clones" and why the catch phrase "Show me the Money" is about ten years behind the decade that really needed it. Please submit your answers to the Live Aboard Mailing List and as soon as everyone returns from their circumnavigations someone will respond. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 18:09:27 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Give me a break, etc Rose Nash: "I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally to a coffee break or other work interruption." The more usual suggestion is that it derives from the pool hall, and the breaking of the balls at the start of a game. The poem quoted by Donald M. Lance reflected Cockney hypercorrection. Because Cockneys also regularly tend to drop an initial "h", they are likely to add one that doesn't exist. Hence: The Letter H's Protest to the Cockneys Whereas by you I 'ave been driven From 'ouse, from 'ome, from 'ope, from 'eaven, And placed by your most learned society In Hexile, Hanguish, and Hanxiety, Nay, charged without one just pretence With Harrogance and Himpudence, I here demand full restitution, And beg you'll mend you Hellocution. quoted in _A Whimsey Anthology_, collected by Carolyn Wells, Charles Scribner's Sons, New York, 1906 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:30:15 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Mencken's American Language I'm looking to buy a copy of Mencken's American Language, but I'm not sure if there's a particular edition I should buy. A couple of the used bookstores here in New York have copies. The copies at Gryphon are the like fifth edition or something plus the two separate addendum volumes released with it. Is there a complete all-in-one volume I should be on the lookout for? The edition you'll probably want, unless you're a desperately serious Mencken scholar (which I encourage), is the one-volume abridged edition of 1963, edited by R. I. McDavid. If you're hard-core, you'll also want the fourth edition of 1936 along with both supplement volumes. If you know that you also want the first, second, and third editions, you probably don't need to ask about it here. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 20:39:10 -0500 From: T&FE1V1&C1&D2S0=0S7=60 aa276988[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Prosodic features of dialect I am interested in looking at the prosodic features of a couple of dialects; however, I'm having a hard time finding other studies devoted to this area of dialectology. In fact, I don't know of any studies which have examined this area. Does anyone know of any that they may suggest? I'd be happy to post the results of this posting. I can be reached at aa276988[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Thanks in advance, Ashlea Allen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 19:55:00 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Lurking I asked my friend Will Shakespeare what he thought about this lurking business. He told me to look into _The Rape of Lucrece_ around line 848. There's no doubt that he's on the side of paid-up ADS members: Why should the worm intrude the maiden bud? Or hateful cuckoos hatch in sparrows' nests? Or toads infect fair founts with venom mud? Or tyrant folly LURK in gentle breasts? He then adds a footnote: But no perfection is so absolute, That some impurity doth not pollute. Opinions will always differ about what constitutes "impurity," and as a contributor to this list recently implied, it could in any case come from within as well as from outside. Surely the converse is true, and lurkers (at least occasionally) play their part in maintaining the generally high level of interest the ADS -list is fortunate enough to enjoy? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 21:50:23 -0800 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Questions about immigrants' learning of English At 12:08 AM 3/10/97 -0500, ALICE FABER wrote: to what extent do adult working class immigrants acquire competence in spoken English, let along in written English of the sort necessary to cope with written forms? Based on what I know of the Jewish immigrant experience in the late 19th and early 20th centuries (in part from stories told in my own family), my suspicion is that members of the immigrating generation often did not achieve any degree of competence in English. This is certainly true of my paternal grandparents in New Jersey. They came to this country before WWI, lived all their lives in various "Little Italys" just across the river from NY, and learned almost no English at all. My grandmother lived into her 80's, died in 1959, and survived because everybody in Cliffside Park spoke Italian. She and I could not communicate except through signs and facial expressions (mostly smiles). All her children, however, learned English and, in fact, lost most of their Italian by the time they grew up and left town. Alan Baragona alan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:09:41 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Don't "Kick Them Off" Perhaps this would be a good time to point out to everyone that the American Dialect Society has a website. You can get information about the ADS (including membership info) there. FYI: The address has changed recently, and it looks real spiffy. http://humanities.byu.edu/humstudents/lillie/ads/index.htm Danny Long (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Mar 1997 to 11 Mar 1997 There are 22 messages totalling 1649 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mapping dialect spread (2) 2. recently attested items (3) 3. to: people who wrote to me yesterday 4. All purpose arguments 5. Quebec language & law (3) 6. paper on origin of GAY 7. Fwd: Writing Award 8. common sense 9. Immigrants' learning of English (4) 10. Word frequency list? 11. mapping dialect spread -Reply (2) 12. Word frequencies 13. consonant frequency ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:02:11 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: mapping dialect spread I have a question for ADS-L about language variation. (Surprise!) In Japan there are a lot of studies showing how linguistic features spread from a geographical center (like a big center), or how two linguistic features butt up against each other as they spread into the area between two cities. The diffusion aspect comes in because data is gathered from speakers of 3 (or 4 or 5) different age groups at each location. I know of no such studies of U.S. dialects, and am planning to write (in an upcoming article) that are practically no such studies in the U.S. Anyone know of any I can list as exceptions to this? The article (in Japanese) is about differences between U.S. and Japan dialects/dialectology, and I want to use this as an example of differences in the focus of research. I know of some work on English dialects that is in general concerned with the geographic and temporal aspects of language spread. Trudgill, for example, talks about language spread in Dialects in Contact but no details about ages of speakers or exact locations are given there. I recall reading OF an article several years ago that I believe was about language spread in the midwest, say, Indiana. Does that ring a bell with anyone? Could this have been a Timothy Frazer article? It is rather difficult for me where I am to browse journals, so I would appreciate any help you could offer. Also, if you don't mind, would you respond to the list with this rather than just to me personally. I find that that tends to prime the pump and encourage other people to respond. Thanks, Danny Long (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 23:50:25 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: recently attested items 1) on register, context, and l-lessness: On the ABC World News Tonight Friday, Vice President Gore--a Tennessean, of course--was doing one of those tours-to-see-how-devastating-the-devastation-was along the flooded Ohio between Kentucky and Ohio. He promised that "we"--the Federal government--"will hep you". I was struck by the l-- 0/__p as used by Al Gore; somehow it seems unlikely that he would have been ready to offer to "hep" the Bosnians restore peace to their land, or to "hep" schoolchildren gain better access to the information highway. I think it's also relevant that he was wearing jeans and a sport shirt for the flood tour, while the "hep"-less contexts would be ones in which he'd be wearing a suit and tie. 2) on mock- or faux-Spanish (no problemo, etc.): another formation I've come across recently is the superlative-forming -mondo, e.g. the use of both "correctamundo" and "perfectamundo" in a currently-airing radio commercial for RCA. I tried tracking them down via Nexis, and traced the former back to 1989, where the first (of 19) citations included a reference to the popularizing of the term by the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Evidently, though, "correctamundo" has outlived Raffy, Leo, Mike and Don. "Perfectamundo", on the other hand, had just two cites, the earlier in 1992. Did this suffix derive from a perverse blend of -mente and mundo? Best not to know, perhaps. 3) some evidence that positive "anymore" is indeed spreading outside of its original area, even among non-linguists: The speaker is a sportscaster on local New York all-sports radio WFAN, Joe Benigno. Joe is, like me, a native Noo Yawka, and wears it proudly, r-lessness and all. He's actually a guy who used to call in so regularly that he was given his own show to host, albeit one that starts at 1:00 a.m. or so. So anyway here he is complaining about how inconsistently the home town basketball team, the New York Knicks, have been playing, just following the post-game show after "another agita special". What he says is "The Knicks are a different team from quarter to quarter anymore". Only, given the regional loyalty, they're "a different team from kwawta tuh kwawta anymaw". (Sorry for the transcription; ascii doth make dialect novelists of us all.) Somehow the combination of the indigenous vocalic clusters and the very much non-indigenous use of "anymore" struck me as particularly incongruous. Any thoughts? --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 05:35:17 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: to: people who wrote to me yesterday at least a half-dozen ads-lers wrote to me yesterday and had their mail bounced back. please don't re-send--my postmaster passes the bounces on to me. sorry for the trouble, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:13:28 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: All purpose arguments For an example of failure of language programs, we need to look at my former home province Quebec and their continued insistence in shoving the French language down immigrants' throats(including Anglo-Americans; only English speaking CANADIAN citizens are allowed access to English public schools). Then they bemoan that immigrants are taking away all the good jobsa from their children. I mean, who's more marketable; a Vietnamese immigrant who speaks both English and French(of course he would have learned English because he's using Quebec as a stepping stone to get into the States as soon as he can pass the much stricter U.S. immigration requirements), or a Quebecois who speaks English very badly? And even though the Office de Language Francais is a black hole that sucks money and does nothing but bicker about how big foreign languages are allowed to be on public signs, the Quebec government still throws money at it. You wonder why I'm impatient about wasting money on programs that don't work. maybe it's because I've lived in Quebec all those years... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:36:48 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: recently attested items 2) on mock- or faux-Spanish (no problemo, etc.): another formation I've come across recently is the superlative-forming -mondo, e.g. the use of both "correctamundo" and "perfectamundo" in a currently-airing radio commercial for RCA. I tried tracking them down via Nexis, and traced the former back to 1989, where the first (of 19) citations included a reference to the popularizing of the term by the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Evidently, though, "correctamundo" has outlived Raffy, Leo, Mike and Don. "Perfectamundo", on the other hand, had just two cites, the earlier in 1992. Did this suffix derive from a perverse blend of -mente and mundo? Best not to know, perhaps. Pushing this back a bit, I think this was a regular usage of the Fonz, on Happy Days. Can't find anything in writing right now, though. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 10:24:29 -0500 From: Matthew James Gordon mjgordon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMICH.EDU Subject: Re: mapping dialect spread I think the article you're almost remembering is "Some patterns of linguistic diffusion" by Guy Bailey et al., which appeared in Language Variation and Change, (1993). This presents some interesting results from the SOD (Survey of Oklahoma Dialects) Project and does investigate some "apparent time" data. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 09:43:42 CST From: mpicone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Quebec language & law On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:13:28 -0500 Christopher R. Coolidge said: For an example of failure of language programs, we need to look at my former home province Quebec and their continued insistence in shoving the French language down immigrants' throats(including Anglo-Americans; only English speaking CANADIAN citizens are allowed access to English public schools). Then they bemoan that immigrants are taking away all the good jobsa from their children. I mean, who's more marketable; a Vietnamese immigrant who speaks both English and French(of course he would have learned English because he's using Quebec as a stepping stone to get into the States as soon as he can pass the much stricter U.S. immigration requirements), or a Quebecois who speaks English very badly? And even though the Office de Language Francais is a black hole that sucks money and does nothing but bicker about how big foreign languages are allowed to be on public signs, the Quebec government still throws money at it. You wonder why I'm impatient about wasting money on programs that don't work. maybe it's because I've lived in Quebec all those years... The definition of failure shifts as perpsectives shift. From Christopher Coolidge's perspective and other immigrants who want access to English language schooling for their kids, the policy is a failure. From the perspective of the French speaker in Quebec who saw his/her language threatened by the encroaching hegemony of Anglo-dominant infrastructure, this same policy figures into a larger framework of linguistic legislation that has indisputedly strengthened the position of French in Quebec, such that the example of Quebec is cited by Fishman and many others as one of the few cases where language decline has been successfully reversed. Whatever one might think of linguistic legislation, these are the realities, on both sides, that one must take account of if one is interested at looking at the big picture. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would not want to look at it. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:39:05 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: paper on origin of GAY --PART.BOUNDARY.0.1486.emout09.mail.aol.com.858098318 Content-ID: 0_1486_858098318[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emout09.mail.aol.com.12619 Content-type: text/plain Here, in answer to Mark's quite justified request for more evidence, is a copy of some evidence on the history of GAY 'homosexual'. If anybody would like a DOS version, let me know. 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I just hope that you have not been getting the series of passionate letters I have been writing to Angela Davis. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 11:51:39 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: common sense My high-school English teacher defined COMMON SENSE as the lowest common denominator of human intelligence. I have always tried to keep that in mind. Usually, Common Sense means merely an opinion that is based on the little knowledge that is, as a. Pope said, a dangerous thing. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 17:05:49 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Immigrants' learning of English to Alice Faber: As the daughter of immigrant parents living in an immigrant neighborhood in Chicago, I still remember my reaction upon meeting, for the first time, an American-born mother of an elementary school classmate. I felt sorry for her, and said "How can you keep secrets from your mother if she understands everything you say to other people? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:30:10 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Word frequency list? I've forgotten the book(s) that have the information this inquirer has requested. Could you please reply to him, and maybe to ADS-L too? Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------ I'm looking for the most commonly used words in the English language (just a list). Do you have any ideas, or know if somebody has already compiled one? Thanks, Chris Metaxas cmetaxas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]3star.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:31:13 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: mapping dialect spread -Reply Matthew James Gordon mjgordon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMICH.EDU 0311.1024 I think the article you're almost remembering is "Some patterns of linguistic diffusion" by Guy Bailey et al., which appeared in Language Variation and Change, (1993). This presents some interesting results from the SOD (Survey of Oklahoma Dialects) Project and does investigate some "apparent time" data. I have noticed in myself, as I aged and especially as I felt myself aspiring to cross certain felt boundaries of age/seniority/respectability, a tendency to emulate the speech of my elders/seniors and set aside some habits of speech that I felt seemed markers of immaturity. Unfortunately I can't remember specifics just now, but they may come back to me with thought. But I wonder (both now and at the time): If this is a common tendency, would it tend to obscure or blur such "apparent time" studies, which are dependent on the assumption that, roughly, a person's speech at the time of survey is the same as it was when she was acquiring native fluency? How would one ascertain the dimensions of such "retrogressive development"? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:27:20 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Word frequencies I have been using for some years _Word Frequencies of Spoken American English_, by Hartvig Dahl, a Verbatim book distributed by Gale Research Co, Detroit. It's probably out of date now since it's based on interviews recorded in 1969. The book was published in 1979. When OUP published the 2nd edition of the _Oxford English Dictionary_ a few years ago, the editors mentioned in radio interviews that they had a list of words by frequency of use. L.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 14:07:00 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: recently attested items I'd take a guess not only at "-mente" and "-mundo", but also at "-bundo" ("tremebundo", etc.)... M. E. On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Larry Horn wrote: 1) on register, context, and l-lessness: On the ABC World News Tonight Friday, Vice President Gore--a Tennessean, of course--was doing one of those tours-to-see-how-devastating-the-devastation-was along the flooded Ohio between Kentucky and Ohio. He promised that "we"--the Federal government--"will hep you". I was struck by the l-- 0/__p as used by Al Gore; somehow it seems unlikely that he would have been ready to offer to "hep" the Bosnians restore peace to their land, or to "hep" schoolchildren gain better access to the information highway. I think it's also relevant that he was wearing jeans and a sport shirt for the flood tour, while the "hep"-less contexts would be ones in which he'd be wearing a suit and tie. 2) on mock- or faux-Spanish (no problemo, etc.): another formation I've come across recently is the superlative-forming -mondo, e.g. the use of both "correctamundo" and "perfectamundo" in a currently-airing radio commercial for RCA. I tried tracking them down via Nexis, and traced the former back to 1989, where the first (of 19) citations included a reference to the popularizing of the term by the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Evidently, though, "correctamundo" has outlived Raffy, Leo, Mike and Don. "Perfectamundo", on the other hand, had just two cites, the earlier in 1992. Did this suffix derive from a perverse blend of -mente and mundo? Best not to know, perhaps. 3) some evidence that positive "anymore" is indeed spreading outside of its original area, even among non-linguists: The speaker is a sportscaster on local New York all-sports radio WFAN, Joe Benigno. Joe is, like me, a native Noo Yawka, and wears it proudly, r-lessness and all. He's actually a guy who used to call in so regularly that he was given his own show to host, albeit one that starts at 1:00 a.m. or so. So anyway here he is complaining about how inconsistently the home town basketball team, the New York Knicks, have been playing, just following the post-game show after "another agita special". What he says is "The Knicks are a different team from quarter to quarter anymore". Only, given the regional loyalty, they're "a different team from kwawta tuh kwawta anymaw". (Sorry for the transcription; ascii doth make dialect novelists of us all.) Somehow the combination of the indigenous vocalic clusters and the very much non-indigenous use of "anymore" struck me as particularly incongruous. Any thoughts? --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:12:51 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Quebec language & law On Tue, 11 Mar 1997, mpicone wrote: On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 08:13:28 -0500 Christopher R. Coolidge said: For an example of failure of language programs, we need to look at my former home province Quebec and their continued insistence in shoving the French language down immigrants' throats(including Anglo-Americans; only English speaking CANADIAN citizens are allowed access to English public schools). Then they bemoan that immigrants are taking away all the good jobsa from their children. I mean, who's more marketable; a Vietnamese immigrant who speaks both English and French(of course he would have learned English because he's using Quebec as a stepping stone to get into the States as soon as he can pass the much stricter U.S. immigration requirements), or a Quebecois who speaks English very badly? And even though the Office de Language Francais is a black hole that sucks money and does nothing but bicker about how big foreign languages are allowed to be on public signs, the Quebec government still throws money at it. You wonder why I'm impatient about wasting money on programs that don't work. maybe it's because I've lived in Quebec all those years... The definition of failure shifts as perpsectives shift. From Christopher Coolidge's perspective and other immigrants who want access to English language schooling for their kids, the policy is a failure. From the perspective of the French speaker in Quebec who saw his/her language threatened by the encroaching hegemony of Anglo-dominant infrastructure, this same policy figures into a larger framework of linguistic legislation that has indisputedly strengthened the position of French in Quebec, such that the example of Quebec is cited by Fishman and many others as one of the few cases where language decline has been successfully reversed. Whatever one might think of linguistic legislation, these are the realities, on both sides, that one must take account of if one is interested at looking at the big picture. Personally, I don't understand why anyone would not want to look at it. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Here's the big picture: the way Quebec's going, especially if it separates from Canada, it's guaranteed to be little more than a unilingual French backwater where those who have the money and power send their kids to private bilingual schools and everybody else is effectively imprisoned within Quebec's borders due to insufficient grasp of English. The Quebec government isn't worried; even those members who don't speak "perfect" English, have their kids in private schools so they can get a job outside Quebec if they can't find one within its borders. Quebec has been undergoing a massive brain drain since I was in high school in the '70's. I can count maybe ten or so of my graduating class that I know are still in Quebec somewhere; only one of those(she became a dentist)could be considered successful. Those that I know are doing well are in the States, Toronto, or Ottawa; anywhere but Montreal(or Quebec by extension). The rest that are still in Montreal, most of them to my knowledge are still living with their parents and/or working dead end jobs. If I seem angry, it's not directed at the Quebecois people. I find their dialect linguistically fascinating(and impossible to learn without being laughed at or responded to in equally broken, or quite often, quite good albeit accented English.), and the people, when I'm not frustrated with their bullheadedness about language, are as openhearted and passionately opinionated(not to mention obnoxious! :-))as Americans have a reputation for being.(In fact, in some parts of rural Quebec, Johnny Cash is considered very close to a God)Like Americans, the Quebecois tend to speak their mind from the top of their heads, so they have an international reputation for being course and boorish(like Americans!), but that's the price you pay for brutal honesty, which they're very good at. The other side of the coin is a Quebecois man is the best friend you could have, and the women are among the most jaw-droppingly gorgeous(for the most part!)I've seen anywhere. Among the most feisty too. Not many shrinking violets in that province. These are but generalisations, I realise, but otherwise I'd be writing a book at this rate. I mean, I spent the better part of my life there... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:13:47 CST From: mpicone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Quebec language & law On Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:12:51 -0500 (EST) Christopher Coolidge said: Here's the big picture: the way Quebec's going, especially if it separates from Canada, it's guaranteed to be little more than a unilingual French backwater where those who have the money and power send their kids to private bilingual schools and everybody else is effectively imprisoned within Quebec's borders due to insufficient grasp of English. The Quebec government isn't worried; even those members who don't speak "perfect" English, have their kids in private schools so they can get a job outside Quebec if they can't find one within its borders. Quebec has been undergoing a massive brain drain since I was in high school in the '70's. I can count maybe ten or so of my graduating class that I know are still in Quebec somewhere; only one of those(she became a dentist)could be considered successful. Those that I know are doing well are in the States, Toronto, or Ottawa; anywhere but Montreal(or Quebec by extension). The rest that are still in Montreal, most of them to my knowledge are still living with their parents and/or working dead end jobs. If I seem angry, it's not directed at the Quebecois people. I find their dialect linguistically fascinating(and impossible to learn without being laughed at or responded to in equally broken, or quite often, quite good albeit accented English.), and the people, when I'm not frustrated with their bullheadedness about language, are as openhearted and passionately opinionated(not to mention obnoxious! :-))as Americans have a reputation for being.(In fact, in some parts of rural Quebec, Johnny Cash is considered very close to a God)Like Americans, the Quebecois tend to speak their mind from the top of their heads, so they have an international reputation for being course and boorish(like Americans!), but that's the price you pay for brutal honesty, which they're very good at. The other side of the coin is a Quebecois man is the best friend you could have, and the women are among the most jaw-droppingly gorgeous(for the most part!)I've seen anywhere. Among the most feisty too. Not many shrinking violets in that province. These are but generalisations, I realise, but otherwise I'd be writing a book at this rate. I mean, I spent the better part of my life there... I don't much care for Christopher Coolidge's shoot-from-the-hip, stereotyped generalizations. Looking past all the bluster, the point he raises that holds my interest is the critical choice that must be made between linguistic/cultural identity and economic advancement. How much of the one is worth how much of the other? Is it really possible to have one's cake and eat it, too, via bilingualism (or bidialectalism) and biculturalism? On the face of it, mass bilingualism is great: culturally enriching, access to two worlds, not to mention of course increased economic opportunities. But in practice, bilingualism is now the step preceding language extinction in many, perhaps most, instances where enclave languages persist. But who wants to be left in the economic dust? The stakes are high either way and the solution is not simple. I'm fairly certain that most Cajuns, if they had to choose between retaining Cajun French and having decent jobs, would choose the latter. In fact, for the most part, the Cajun community has already made that choice. It didn't help, of course, that various state laws were enacted at critical junctures that made it virtually impossible to find a middle way. Apparently the Quebecois are willing to take some economic risks to choose in favor of identity. Or they may not fully appreciate the risks. Or Christopher Coolidge may be exaggerating. Probably all three. At many levels, this connects with the whole Ebonics controversy as well. I guess that's too obvious to need mention. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 18:39:37 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Immigrants' learning of English As a third-generation American, daughter of (typical) second-generation bilinguals, I used to marvel at the fact that my parents, talking to each other and to their parents, could keep secrets from me! Incidentally, when I asked my mother some years ago how it felt to be bilingual, she looked puzzled and asked me what that meant. (I wasn't trying to sound hypereducated, but the word was obviously not familiar to her.) When I explained, she lit up and said of course, she enjoyed being able to talk in two languages--but it was something she just took for granted, since almost everyone around her could do the same. But this doesn't mean she had no difficulty becoming bilingual; when she spoke Norwegian in school, the monolinguals (and more "assimilated" bilinguals) laughed at her. A little help never hurts. She did become fluent in English in time, of course, but her (and my father's) parents always "talked broken," as she said. Wasn't it Einar Haugen (or Weinreich?) who modeled the generational process as Ab-AB-aB, with the AB sometimes extending through two generations but seldom more? How long a family remains "balanced bilingual AB" depends primarily on the social isolation and/or cohesiveness of the speech community and only secondarily on lack of economic opportunity, since low income and job-limited immigrants feel most keenly the need to get English. They don't learn English, as Ellen Johnson said, to "show their gratitude," and neither did my grandparents; I doubt that any immigrant or migrant ever does or did. On the other hand, Florida Cubans, as Ellen notes, learned English quickly, but they also keep Spanish, not because of class or income but because of their ideological hope of returning to Cuba someday. In my "Language in America" course I use an old article by Nathan Glazer (early 70s? can't put my hand on it right now) on factors favoring and disfavoring language maintenance by immigrants (with Fishman recommended too, of course). But for hard data, I always cite Garland Bills and Hudson-Edwards on language shift in an Albuquerque barrio. (Garland, can you cite it for us? I can't find this one either!) In this ten-square block area the pattern of shift, in both home use and outside use, clearly followed Haugen's model, with or without "forcing" (I suppose the schools could be said to force English use, but only in their domain, and they certainly didn't force the adult first generation to shift). Ironically, while the article set out to document the loss of ancestral language skills, it also demonstrated powerfully the lack of a need to "force" the new language on anyone! The English-only argument that immigrants won't learn English unless we force them to is really a non-issue. Beverly Olson Flanigan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 20:05:46 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Immigrants' learning of English Postscript: On re-reading my post, I realize that I implied that Ellen Johnson said that new immigrants should "show their gratitude" by learning English. She was citing Claudio Salvucci, rather, who claimed (as I recall) that his parents learned English for this reason. Sorry, Ellen! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:53:09 -0600 From: William Stone uwstone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: consonant frequency I am currently working on a statistical analysis of pronunciation among various groups in Chicago and was wondering if anyone knows of a publication that gives the frequency of phonemes or clusters in onset or coda position in any variety of spoken or written English. The only reference I've found so far dates from 1923. With thanks in anticipation William Stone Linguistics Department N.E.Illinois University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 21:00:20 -0500 From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM Subject: Re: Immigrants' learning of English Postscript: On re-reading my post, I realize that I implied that Ellen Johnson said that new immigrants should "show their gratitude" by learning English. She was citing Claudio Salvucci, rather, who claimed (as I recall) that his parents learned English for this reason. Sorry, Ellen! Uhhh.. that's not what I said. They learned English because they moved here, became Americans, and Americans speak English. What I said about pride was that it was a contributing factor in English acquisition, which it undeniably was and hopefully still is. Saying pride was/is the only factor though, would be pretty dumb. I seem to recall someone wanting some evidence that first gen. immigrants could achieve reasonable competancy in English. My parents' generation did learn English very well after they came here in their mid 20s. They were literate in Italian, but had not studied English whatsoever before coming. -Claudio ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Mar 1997 12:17:28 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: mapping dialect spread -Reply Thanks to Mark Manel and Donald Lance for the info. I'm interested in the issue that M.M. brought up and intend to reply when I've gotten final exams checked and grades turned in. (school year ends in February here). For now, let me say that I have seen evidence from studies here that speakers tend to use non-standard features upon reaching (young) adulthood than they did when in school. This can be explained as a part of their "socialization", especially the fact that they have to deal with older speakers in their community more when they enter the work force. If this is indeed true, and a widespread phenomema, it could throw a monkey wrench into the kind of studies (very popular in Japan) in which results of elderly speakers are compared with those of (say) junior high school students, in an effort to get a handle on apparent time change. I think I found the article I was thinking about. Tim Frazer 1983, mentioned in Wolfram _Dialects and American English_. Wolfram doesn't mention the state though, so if I've got the Indiana part correct, that means that I must have seen the original article somewhere sometime. (Must be around here somewhere.) When I get time, I'm thinking about putting up one of the age/region graphs that I mentioned on our Center's website. I think some of you might be interested. The methodology differs a bit from the other articles I've seen. (Donald Lance, I actually own READINGS IN AMERICAN DIALECTOLOGY, eds. Harold B. Allen & Gary N. Underwood, so I have looked at the four articles you mentioned. . . For once in my life, I actually had a book that I needed!) One more question. Can anybody give me information about Gary Underwood? I want to use a graph he produced in a paper about identity in an old Methods proceedings. This is more than ten years old. Is he still alive? Retired? Anybody have an address or email for him? Danny Long Mark Mandel wrote: I have noticed in myself, as I aged and especially as I felt myself aspiring to cross certain felt boundaries of age/seniority/respectability, a tendency to emulate the speech of my elders/seniors and set aside some habits of speech that I felt seemed markers of immaturity. Unfortunately I can't remember specifics just now, but they may come back to me with thought. But I wonder (both now and at the time): If this is a common tendency, would it tend to obscure or blur such "apparent time" studies, which are dependent on the assumption that, roughly, a person's speech at the time of survey is the same as it was when she was acquiring native fluency? How would one ascertain the dimensions of such "retrogressive development"? My original query I have a question for ADS-L about language variation. (Surprise!) In Japan there are a lot of studies showing how linguistic features spread from a geographical center (like a big center), or how two linguistic features butt up against each other as they spread into the area between two cities. The diffusion aspect comes in because data is gathered from speakers of 3 (or 4 or 5) different age groups at each location. I know of no such studies of U.S. dialects, and am planning to write (in an upcoming article) that are practically no such studies in the U.S. Anyone know of any I can list as exceptions to this? The article (in Japanese) is about differences between U.S. and Japan dialects/dialectology, and I want to use this as an example of differences in the focus of research. I know of some work on English dialects that is in general concerned with the geographic and temporal aspects of language spread. Trudgill, for example, talks about language spread in Dialects in Contact but no details about ages of speakers or exact locations are given there. I recall reading OF an article several years ago that I believe was about language spread in the midwest, say, Indiana. Does that ring a bell with anyone? Could this have been a Timothy Frazer article? It is rather difficult for me where I am to browse journals, so I would appreciate any help you could offer. Also, if you don't mind, would you respond to the list with this rather than just to me personally. I find that that tends to prime the pump and encourage other people to respond. Thanks, Danny Long (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Mar 1997 to 11 Mar 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1997 to 13 Mar 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 212 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Kurath's categories of variation 2. "how good of" 3. transcription issues 4. common sense 5. Of a morning 6. "how good of" -Reply 7. the meanings of 'break' 8. -mondo 9. Ethnic "Humor" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:15:55 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Kurath's categories of variation Dale F.Coye wrote: On the subject of pronunciation, Kurath talked about three kinds of variation -- phonetic (different realizations of phonemes), phonemic (different number of phonemes in the sound system), and lexical incidence of shared phonemes (whether you use /s/ or /z/ in greasy. Is there another name for this last category that I'm not aware of? It's so awkward to refer to it, as in a sentence like: In this region there are some phonetic differences but also many BLANK variations. Chambers and Trudgill call them "pronunciation isoglosses" in _Dialectology_ and differentiate between these and the sack/bag isoglosses which they refer as "lexical isoglosses" (page 113). Danny Long (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:00:11 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: "how good of" Does it also jar you, Mark, when you hear some crusty old codger say "I don't sleep so good of a night anymore"? This "of a night" was never in my language, but I learned to suppress "how good of...." when I became an English teacher. It jarred me when I heard my born and bred Oklahoma mother-in-law say "of a morning" in phrases such as "I have toast of a morning" instead of in the morning or every morning. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 00:00:42 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: transcription issues This was forwarded to me - thought I'd share. Rima Language proficiency is part of the international contracting scene. This exchange between an English-speaking traveler and a member of the hotel staff in a Far East hotel was recorded in the "Far-East Economic Review": Room Service: Morny. Rune-sore-bees. Hotel Guest: Oh, sorry. I thought I dialed Room Service. RS: Rye, rune-sore-bees. Morny. Djewish to odor sunteen? HG: Uh... yes. I'd like some bacon and eggs. RS: Ow July then? HG: What? RS: Aches. Ow July then? Pry, boy, pooch...? HG: Oh, the eggs! How do I like them? Sorry. Scrambled please. RS: Ow July thee baycome? Crease? HG: Crisp will be fine. RS: Okay. An Santos? HG: What? RS: Santos. July Santos? HG: Ugh. I don't know... I don't think so. RS: No. Judo one toes? HG: Look, I feel really bad about this, but I don't know what "judo one toes" means. I'm sorry. RS: Toes! Toes! Why djew Don Juan toes? Ow bow cenglish mopping we bother? HG: English muffin! I've got it! You were saying toast! Fine. An English muffin will be fine. RS: We bother? HG: No. Just put the bother on the side. RS: Wad? HG: I'm sorry. I meant butter. Butter on the side. RS: Copy? HG: I feel terrible about this but... RS: Copy. Copy, tea, mill... HG: Coffee! Yes, coffee please. And that's all. RS: One Minnie. Ass rune torino fee, strangle aches, crease, baycome,tossy cenglish mopping we bother honey sigh, and copy. Rye? HG: Whatever you say. RS: Okay. Tendjewberrymud... HG: You're welcome. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 09:00:09 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: common sense The questioned phraseology of the definition using the word _men_ was written in the 1950s when people understood that _man_ had more than one meaning. Dictionary editors generally have enough problems to cope with in the revision of succeeding editions that attending to the desires of the blinkered outlook of the determinedly PC-minded can be overlooked. If the challenger of this wording would care to look into the 10th edition of the Collegiate, he/she will discover that the wording has now been amended. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 07:11:48 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Of a morning Rima McKinzey wrote: "It jarred me when I heard my born and bred Oklahoma mother-in-law say "of a morning" in phrases such as "I have toast of a morning" instead of in the morning or every morning." Rima's mother-in-law was in good company. Eg, Arnold Bennett in _Woman who stole Everything_: "Both brother and sister had had to clock in of a morning and clock out of an evening for years." This usage remains in British English, amongst older speakers, at least. It is the Genitive of Time, once common to Germanic languages, realised earlier in English as "a-mornings" and still seen in eg, German (Morgens). Come to think of it, "a-mornings" may well survive in British dialect. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 11:33:06 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: "how good of" -Reply Donald M. Lance engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU 0312.2200 Does it also jar you, Mark, when you hear some crusty old codger say "I don't sleep so good of a night anymore"? This "of a night" was never in my language, but I learned to suppress "how good of...." when I became an English teacher. Not at all. My ears would perk up with interest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:23:38 -0700 From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX Subject: Re: the meanings of 'break' I absolutely agree, if allowed (since I'm not an American). Max E. On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Rose Nash wrote: I don't disagree with any of the observations, but doesn't "lucky break" also imply an interruption in a string of presumably unfavorable events? It seems to me that the figurative uses of 'break' as 'chance/opportunity' all carry the idea of sudden positive change in circumstances. For example, "Gimme a break" , especially if preceded by "Aw, come on" might mean "Do me a favor (for once in your life, you habitually mean so-and-so)." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 10:11:40 -0800 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: -mondo I believe Mondo Cane was an Italian film, and that the Fonz's full name was Fonzerelli. Perhaps we're dealing with a faux-Italian suffix, -mundo, -amundo (with emphasis on the "faux-"). The closest truly Italian suffix would probably be -mento. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Wed, 12 Mar 1997, Donald M. Lance wrote: 2) on mock- or faux-Spanish (no problemo, etc.): another formation I've come across recently is the superlative-forming -mondo, e.g. the use of both "correctamundo" and "perfectamundo" in a currently-airing radio commercial for RCA. Maybe just my overworked imagination, but I wonder whether there was some connection between the Fonz's use of -mundo and the movie 'Mondo Cane' that ame out somewhere back in that era. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:20:33 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Ethnic "Humor" RS: Toes! Toes! Why djew Don Juan toes? Ow bow cenglish mopping we bother? The perpetrator of this put-down dialogue does not say the h- in 'what'. 'Juan' for this speaker is a wan name. I wonder how well the author of this piece speaks another language, that is, one besides hw-less English. Likewise, whether the amount of laughter evoked by the joke is inversely proportional to the laugher's ability to speak foreign languages. Just a little wry irony from me at this moment. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1997 to 13 Mar 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1997 to 14 Mar 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mapping dialect spread -Reply 2. Word frequencies 3. Word frequency list? 4. Help with Mandarin dialect 5. dey teef meh quats dem ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:31:13 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: mapping dialect spread -Reply Matthew James Gordon mjgordon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMICH.EDU 0311.1024 I think the article you're almost remembering is "Some patterns of linguistic diffusion" by Guy Bailey et al., which appeared in Language Variation and Change, (1993). This presents some interesting results from the SOD (Survey of Oklahoma Dialects) Project and does investigate some "apparent time" data. I have noticed in myself, as I aged and especially as I felt myself aspiring to cross certain felt boundaries of age/seniority/respectability, a tendency to emulate the speech of my elders/seniors and set aside some habits of speech that I felt seemed markers of immaturity. Unfortunately I can't remember specifics just now, but they may come back to me with thought. But I wonder (both now and at the time): If this is a common tendency, would it tend to obscure or blur such "apparent time" studies, which are dependent on the assumption that, roughly, a person's speech at the time of survey is the same as it was when she was acquiring native fluency? How would one ascertain the dimensions of such "retrogressive development"? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 13:27:20 -0500 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Word frequencies I have been using for some years _Word Frequencies of Spoken American English_, by Hartvig Dahl, a Verbatim book distributed by Gale Research Co, Detroit. It's probably out of date now since it's based on interviews recorded in 1969. The book was published in 1979. When OUP published the 2nd edition of the _Oxford English Dictionary_ a few years ago, the editors mentioned in radio interviews that they had a list of words by frequency of use. L.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Mar 1997 12:30:10 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Word frequency list? I've forgotten the book(s) that have the information this inquirer has requested. Could you please reply to him, and maybe to ADS-L too? Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------ I'm looking for the most commonly used words in the English language (just a list). Do you have any ideas, or know if somebody has already compiled one? Thanks, Chris Metaxas cmetaxas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]3star.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 10:50:35 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Help with Mandarin dialect Here is a request indeed! If anyone on ADS-L can help, please get in touch directly with leungk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rockvax.rockefeller.edu (KEN) and if it's of general interest, please let us on ADS-L know too. Thanks! - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------------ i am a nyc-based actor shooting a film in a couple of weeks, in which i need to speak english with a mandarin dialect (beijing). as most people in nyc speak cantonese, i have had trouble finding help. what i need is to listen or, even better, to speak with someone with the dialect. if u could suggest something or help me in any way, i would be most grateful. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:15:08 -0600 From: Ditra Henry udhenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: dey teef meh quats dem GRANT, although I am not a new subscriber, I will be unsubscribing to the list because I will have to submit a change in address. So , Since I will be a renewed subscriber,I decided to respond to your question number two only--- that read: -- On Mon, 10 Mar 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: Before new subscribers can be added to the ADS List, they must meet the following requirements. These rules go into effect immediately. 2. Explain what "Dey teef meh quats dem" means to Crucians. You automatically become a qualified ADS-L subscriber if you offer to fund a "fact-finding" mission to the appropriate part of the Caribbean and take at least 20 current members with you. I'm sorry I can't offer the fact finding mission to the Carribean, but I can offer some very good sources here in Chicago. Of course any of you are welcome to fact find here about it in the Caribbean Academic Program at Evanston Township High School or in my neighborhood where there are many folks from the Caribbean. However, I might even be of some assistance. First of all, are you sure the word is quats (kwats) and not kwati? And the translation would be in American English ( somebody stole my last little thing). The word kwati is in a old Jamaican Folk song however mi nuh nua i naim. But the song goes like this: Karri mi aki goa Linstead Maakit notta kwati wud sel everyboddi cum fiel-up fiel-up notta kwati wud sel so kwati a mien- not won likkle ting a sel or not one penny farthing depending on who you ask. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1997 to 14 Mar 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Mar 1997 to 15 Mar 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 262 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. note on the meanings of 'break' (2) 2. ... or what? 3. Word frequency list? 4. crankiness and weather 5. FEEL (OF) [was "how good of"] (2) 6. RE Re: dey teef meh quats dem (3) 7. A question about the meaning of "should have to." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:38:42 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: note on the meanings of 'break' Clinton, in referring to his knee injury, was quoted as saying "I had an unlucky break." Apparently the word can imply an interruption in a string of favorable events as well as a string of unfavorable events. However, the 'unfavorable change' is definitely the marked meaning, since the word 'lucky' is optional in: "I'm waiting for my (lucky) break." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 10:53:20 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: note on the meanings of 'break' My lucky break is Spring Break, for which I am also waiting......... Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:18:51 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: ... or what? Would someone please explain the meaning of the tag at the end of the TV MCI commercial: IS THIS A GREAT TIME, OR WHAT? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:18:55 +0000 From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET Subject: Re: Word frequency list? I know of two good sources for this information: 1. The Ladder Dictionary of English. It's a recently revised paperback for beginning language students, and all the words are given a frequency rating from 1 to 5. 2. A General Serice List of English Words by Michael West (Longman, 1953). Contains the first 2000 most frequently used words as of that date. Should still be useful. There is also a statistical study of frequencies in written English done in the 70's at Brown University, I think. If memory serves, it was called Computational Analysis of Contemporary English by Stavnicky. ------------------------------------------- I'm looking for the most commonly used words in the English language (just a list). Do you have any ideas, or know if somebody has already compiled one? Thanks, Chris Metaxas cmetaxas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]3star.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 13:55:51 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: crankiness and weather Like Forrest Gump, Dennis Preston will be sweet and humble no matter what the weather. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:13:25 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: FEEL (OF) [was "how good of"] HOW GOOD (OF)--I can say it either way. "How good of a linguist is Dennis?" is OK, but so is the sentence without the OF. A similar question for me involes FEEL (OF), as in "Feel (of) this material, Dennis!" I've given some thought to this, prompted by a freind who found FEEL OF invariably weird. For me, FEEL OF is possible, but it can only refer to actual (usually) volitional (digito)tactile sensation, thus, I FELT OF THE KNIFEPOINT AGAINST MY BACK would only be possible if I put my finger against the knife after sensing it against my back. I guess one can FEEL OF something with one's skin, too, but doesn't it have to be volitional or at least pleasurable?: FEEL OF THIS WHIP, DENNIS! would not mean that I am threatening to strike him--or even offering to strike him with his permission (e.g., on his bare buttocks)--but only that I want him to put out his hand or perhaps a cheek and stroke the whip gently. Well, now, what if Dennis enjoys being whipped? FEEL OF THIS WHIP, DENNIS! still doesn't quite sound right, does it? Is the key that FEEL OF requires rubbing, not striking? Are there idiolectal/dialectal differences here? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:08:59 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: dey teef meh quats dem Ditra Henry said, in response to my "new subscriber requirements" asking for a translation of "Dey teef meh quats dem": First of all, are you sure the word is quats (kwats) and not kwati? And the translation would be in American English ( somebody stole my last little thing). The word kwati is in a old Jamaican Folk song however mi nuh nua i naim. The way I learned it from Crucians, the translation would be "They stole my quarters." I never actually heard anybody use this sentence, but put it together out of phrases and words I picked up. The kids hanging around the Scale House near King and Church Streets in Christianstead would sometimes ask for "quats" so they could go play video games at the Pizza Hut. I understand now, having done a bit of poking around here in NYC, "teef" as a verb is common across many Caribbean islands to mean "stole." The most interesting Crucian usage, to me, is the word "dem" which often appears after plurals, even if the plural is already indicated, such as in "deh potholes dem", although I infrequently did hear "dem" used after a singular noun to indicate its plurality. I'm still kind of fooling around looking this stuff up, besides being an dilettante dialectician, so I have no idea how widespread this is across the region. I spent six months down there a year ago and found it to be a dialectical gold mine. A large part of the population comes from down-island or Puerto Rico, so you get a weird amalgam of accents and variations. You've never really been stymied until you've been given directions by a St. Lucian taxi driver (part of the problem is the loud country music). At some point I want to go back and transcribe the Crucian Spanish. It is, if possible, even more corrupt and free-wheeling than Puerto Rican Spanish, when compared to textbook Spanish. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 17:03:21 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: FEEL (OF) [was "how good of"] Ron's intuitions (hardly his examples!) are partly on the right track. I had a Texas friend who asked me to 'taste of this' - not 'take a taste of this' which is OK for me, but his use (like 'feel of this') is odd. I think the 'volitional' interpretation goes too deep, and I'm not convinced this belongs in the same ballpark at the 'good (of) a' discussion. I had forgotten this certainly regional fact, but I'll check it out further. Any other comments on it from others? DInIs HOW GOOD (OF)--I can say it either way. "How good of a linguist is Dennis?" is OK, but so is the sentence without the OF. A similar question for me involes FEEL (OF), as in "Feel (of) this material, Dennis!" I've given some thought to this, prompted by a freind who found FEEL OF invariably weird. For me, FEEL OF is possible, but it can only refer to actual (usually) volitional (digito)tactile sensation, thus, I FELT OF THE KNIFEPOINT AGAINST MY BACK would only be possible if I put my finger against the knife after sensing it against my back. I guess one can FEEL OF something with one's skin, too, but doesn't it have to be volitional or at least pleasurable?: FEEL OF THIS WHIP, DENNIS! would not mean that I am threatening to strike him--or even offering to strike him with his permission (e.g., on his bare buttocks)--but only that I want him to put out his hand or perhaps a cheek and stroke the whip gently. Well, now, what if Dennis enjoys being whipped? FEEL OF THIS WHIP, DENNIS! still doesn't quite sound right, does it? Is the key that FEEL OF requires rubbing, not striking? Are there idiolectal/dialectal differences here? Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:25:19 +0900 From: Hideho Ida hida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.DOSHISHA.AC.JP Subject: A question about the meaning of "should have to." About "should have to" and "shouldn't have to". I would like to have your comment about the meaning of the following sentences: 1 Poor people shouldn't have to pay the same taxes as rich people. Which sense does this sentence (1) have among the following? a It is not desirable that poor people have to pay the same taxes as rich people. b It is absolutely unnecessay that poor people pay the same taxes as rich peole. 2 People in society should have to be required to vote in elections. Which sense does this sentence (2) have among the following? c It is desirable that people in society have to be required to vote in elctions. d It is absolutely necessary that people be required to vote in elections. I found these sentences (1 and 2) in an English textbook published in US. I would like to have some comment by those interested in English usage. Any comment to the sentences from the grammatical view-point is welcome. Thanks in advance. Hideho Ida hida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.doshisha.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:36:06 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: RE Re: dey teef meh quats dem On Sat, 15 Mar 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: Ditra Henry said, in response to my "new subscriber requirements" asking for a translation of "Dey teef meh quats dem": First of all, are you sure the word is quats (kwats) and not kwati? And the translation would be in American English ( somebody stole my last little thing). The word kwati is in a old Jamaican Folk song however mi nuh nua i naim. The way I learned it from Crucians, the translation would be "They stole my quarters." I never actually heard anybody use this sentence, but put it together out of phrases and words I picked up. The kids hanging around the Scale House near King and Church Streets in Christianstead would sometimes ask for "quats" so they could go play video games at the Pizza Hut. I understand now, having done a bit of poking around here in NYC, "teef" as a verb is common across many Caribbean islands to mean "stole." The most interesting Crucian usage, to me, is the word "dem" which often appears after plurals, even if the plural is already indicated, such as in "deh potholes dem", although I infrequently did hear "dem" used after a singular noun to indicate its plurality. I'm still kind of fooling around looking this stuff up, besides being an dilettante dialectician, so I have no idea how widespread this is across the region. I spent six months down there a year ago and found it to be a dialectical gold mine. A large part of the population comes from down-island or Puerto Rico, so you get a weird amalgam of accents and variations. You've never really been stymied until you've been given directions by a St. Lucian taxi driver (part of the problem is the loud country music). At some point I want to go back and transcribe the Crucian Spanish. It is, if possible, even more corrupt and free-wheeling than Puerto Rican Spanish, when compared to textbook Spanish. I spent two weeks in Tortola in the British Virgin Islands a couple of years ago. I've never been to St Croix, but the dialect is impenetrable enough to outsiders that the locals effectively speak two languages; Carribean accented standard English to the tourists, and their own dialect when talking among themselves about what they really think of the tourists. :-) I tried listening in on a conversation between a group of kids, and all I understood was the word "bike," and only because one of them was holding one. Even in normal conversation with the locals it took me a while to realise that the "sentamos" they were referring to wasn't some obscure island religious ceremony but the neighboring island St Thomas. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 22:41:45 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: RE Re: dey teef meh quats dem Grant Barrett wrote: I spent six months down there a year ago and found it to be a dialectical gold mine. there = "many Caribbean is;ands" Dialectically in both senses. The dialectics of dialectal variation would make a very interesting study in such linguistically and culturally complex areas as the Caribbean. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Mar 1997 to 15 Mar 1997 ************************************************