M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za
Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340
University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199
Johannesburg 2050
SOUTH AFRICA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 08:53:56 -0700
From: "Garland D. Bills" gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU
Subject: Re: Spanglish
Tim Frazier earlier (a couple of weeks ago?) asked about
"Spanglish". Spanglish is a generally derogatory term for the
speech of U.S. Hispanics that is considered to be something less
than a real language. As might be expected from popular speech,
it can refer to several things: a variety of Spanish, a variety
of English, or code-switching. I responded privately to Tim
asking which aspects of "Spanglish" he was interested in, and he
responded that he would appreciate some bibliography on all three
aspects. Thinking that the following bibliographical information
might be of interest to others, I'm posting it to the list.
The following book is a nearly exhaustive annotated bibliography
for works published through 1974:
Teschner, Richard V., Garland D. Bills, & Jerry R. Craddock.
1975. _Spanish and English of United States Hispanos: A
critical, annotated, linguistic bibliography_.
Arlington, Va.: Center for Applied Linguistics.
Much, much more has been published since 1974. I have tried to
maintain a simple unannotated list of works that come to my
attention, and that non-exhaustive listing now amounts to more
than 70 pages, single-spaced in 10-point type. Following is a
sampling of some of the more important anthologies that have
appeared; these are the non-serial works that I have put on
reserve for a seminar on Spanish in the U.S. that I am teaching
this semester.
Amastae, Jon, & Luc=A1a Elias-Olivares (eds.) 1982. _Spanish
in the United States: Sociolinguistic aspects_.
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
Barkin, Florence, & Elizabeth Brandt (eds.) 1980. _Speaking,
singing and teaching: A multi-disciplinary approach to
language variation_ (Proceedings of the eighth annual
Southwestern Language and Linguistics Workshop). Tempe:
Arizona State University.
Bergen, John J. (ed.) 1990. _Spanish in the United States:
Sociological issues_. Washington, D.C.: Georgetown
University Press.
Bixler-Marquez, Dennis J., Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia, &
George K. Green (eds.) 1989. _Mexican-American Spanish
in its societal and cultural contexts_. Brownsville:
University of Texas-Pan American-Brownsville.
Colombi, M. Cecilia, & Francisco X. Alarcon (eds.) 1996. _La
ense=A4anza del espa=A4ol a hispanohablantes: Praxis y
teor=A1a_. Boston: Houghton-Mifflin.
Duran, Richard P. (ed.) 1981. _Latino language and
communicative behavior_. Norwood, NJ: ABLEX Publishing.
Elias-Olivares, Lucia (ed.) 1983. _Spanish in the U.S.
setting: Beyond the Southwest_. Rosslyn, Va.: National
Clearinghouse for Bilingual Education.
Elias-Olivares, Lucia, Elizabeth A. Leone, Rene Cisneros, &
John R. Gutierrez (eds.) 1985. _Spanish language use
and public life in the United States_. Berlin: Mouton.
Fishman, Joshua A., & Gary D. Keller (eds.) 1982. _Bilingual
education for Hispanic students in the United States_.
New York: Teachers College Press.
Green, George K., & Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia (eds.) 1986.
_Mexican-American language: Usage, attitudes,
maintenance, instruction, and policy_. Brownsville,
Tex.: Pan American University at Brownsville.
Hernandez-Chavez, Eduardo, Andrew D. Cohen, & Anthony Fred
Beltramo (eds.) 1975. _El lenguaje de los chicanos:
Regional and social characteristics of language used by
Mexican-Americans_. Arlington, Va.: Center for Applied
Linguistics.
Hidalgo, Margarita (ed.) 1995. _Sociolinguistic trends on
the U.S.-Mexican border_. Issue of _International
Journal of the Sociology of Language_, no. 114.
McKay, Sandra Lee, & Sau-Ling Cynthia Wong (eds.) 1988.
_Language diversity: Problem or resource? A social and
educational perspective on language minorities in the
United States_. New York: Newbury House.
Merino, Barbara J., Henry T. Trueba, & Fabian A. Samaniego.
1993. _Language and culture in learning: Teaching
Spanish to native speakers of Spanish_. Washington,
D.C.: Falmer Press.
Ornstein-Galicia, Jacob L., George K. Green, & Dennis J.
Bixler-Marquez (eds.) 1988. _Research issues and
problems in United States Spanish: Latin American and
southwestern varieties_. Brownsville, Tex.: Pan
American University at Brownsville.
Roca, Ana, & John M. Lipski. 1993. _Spanish in the United
States: Linguistic contact and diversity_. Berlin:
Mouton de Gruyter.
Silva-Corvalan, Carmen (ed.) 1995. _Spanish in four
continents: Studies in language contact and
bilingualism_. Washington, D.C.: Georgetown University
Press.
Turner, Paul R. (ed.) 1982. _Bilingualism in the Southwest_.
2nd ed. rev. Tucson: University of Arizona Press.
Wherritt, Irene, & Ofelia Garcia (eds.). 1989. _US Spanish:
The language of Latinos_. Issue of _International
Journal of the Sociology of Language_, no. 79.
With regard to works since 1974 on the English of U.S. Hispanics,
the following two books merit special mention:
Ornstein-Galicia, Jacob (ed.) 1984. _Form and function in
Chicano English_. Rowley, Mass.: Newbury House.
Penfield, Joyce, & Jacob L. Ornstein-Galicia. 1985. _Chicano
English: An ethnic contact dialect_. Amsterdam: John
Benjamins.
Garland D. Bills=09=09=09=09E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu
Department of Linguistics=09=09=09Tel.: (505) 277-7416
University of New Mexico=09=09=09FAX: (505) 277-6355
Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:09:17 -0500
From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET
Subject: Re: contraption/contraction
Better hurry to the hospital...the contraptions are getting closer together.
- David
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:33:14 -0500
From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Missouri opportunity April 10
Is there an ADS member who would like to represent us at the inauguration of
Dale F. Nitzschke as new president of Southeast Missouri State University on
Thursday, April 10? The keynote address will be by Maya Angelou!
ADS can't pay your expenses, so your reward would be the thing itself, and
our gratitude.
If you're interested, please let me know right away so I can make our
reservation. Thanks!
- Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Executive Secretary
American Dialect Society
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 12:35:25 -0600
From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US
Subject: daddy-o
I believe daddy-o was used as a play on the teacher's name (Glenn Ford as
Mr. Dadier?) in the movie "Blackboard Jungle" (1955).
akra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 13:48:27 -0500
From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM
Subject: daddy-o -Reply
Albert E. Krahn krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US 0304.1335
I believe daddy-o was used as a play on the teacher's name (Glenn Ford
as Mr. Dadier?) in the movie "Blackboard Jungle" (1955).
The timing would be right for an import from hipster talk.
Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 14:37:47 -0500
From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU
Subject: Re: official lg
Thanks to Claudio Salvucci for worrying about my basic English skills.
Luckily I'm not only a linguist but a native speaker, fully aware of
the difference between "oppose" and "debate". As a teacher, I want
them to "debate"-- hell, I'll even "compel" 'em to. As a sociolinguist,
I want them to end up appreciating the many, many good reasons for
opposing English-only policies and legislation. (Of course, they have
to get to that position under their own power-- it's not required, and
they can still earn a good grade and my respect as human beings if we
disagree on this.) I'm even open to the possibility that someone will
come up with good sociolinguistic arguments FOR English-only someday.
But i have yet to see or hear one.
The compelling arguments for English-only all involve
subscribing to political positions that proponents seem to think all
Americans ought to share, but which I don't happen to. For example,
what's so great about assimilation? It all depends on what one is
being assimilated TO-- this is a directional verb, after all. I'm not
particularly interested in requiring other people to become like me--
much less like some picture of the American ideal. The fact that the
domination of standard English is one of the principal engines of
assimilation in the US is precisely one of the things I object to most
about the political uses of this variety. The flip side of the vaunted
opportunity Claudio refers to is the gate-keeping that goes on to keep
most people from reaching the promisd land-- and StdEng is a principal
tool of exclusion, denigration and hegemony (if also a pretty darn
cool and flexible tool for speaking and writing-- almost as rich in
its tense-aspect system as, say, its cousin Ebonics).
So, it may be obvious by now that when it comes to choice of
language variety, political ideals, ethnic identification etc. I'm not
(happily) in the business of "compelling" or "sentencing" people, if I
can help it. I'm always suspicious of proposals, like Claudio's, to
coerce people into doing what is good for them by force of law
(presumably they are too dumb to be trusted to do it otherwise).
Back to language-- I'm confused by Claudio's contradictory
contentions that (a) "languages are value neutral" and (b) they "have
different social values". Obviously, if (b) is true-- and who could
deny that it is?-- (a) must refer to some non-social sorts of values.
Whatever they are, their relevance to the issue of language rights and
legislation is not clear to me.
This being a free country, Claudio (like Ernie Smith, S.I.
Hayakawa and anyone else) is entitled to call himself a "linguist" and
believe whatever he wants to. To know more about what the great majority
of linguists believe, he might consider consulting the Statement on
Language Rights approved by the LSA Officers and Executive Committee
and voted in as a "sense of the majority of the membership resolution"
last year. Quoting selectively from the text, whicih was published in
the March 1996 LSA Bulletin, here are some interesting points:
* "where linguistic discord does arise... it is generally the
result of majority attempts to disadvantage or suppress a
minority linguistic community"
* "At a minimum, all residents of the US should be guaranteed
the following linguistic rights:
a) To be allowed to express themselves, publicly or privately,
in the language of their choice;
b) To maintain their native language and, should they so
desire, to pass it on to their children; ...
d) To have their children educated in a manner that
affirmatively acknowledges their native language abilities...
some use of children's native language in the classroom is
often desirable...;
e) To conduct business in the language of their choice...
"...The role of English as our common language has never seriously
been questioned... Nonetheless, promoting our common language need
not, and should not, come at the cost of violating the rights of
linguistic minorities."
The Society did not take a position, in this statement, on any
particular English-only legislation. However, it should be clear that
the position we did take is incompatible with many or most of the
extant proposals.
And THAT, as far as I can tell, is what "most linguists" think.
--peter patrick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 15:25:19 -0500
From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU
Subject: Claudio's Parents
My question is: Why did Claudio's parents compel immigrants to learn
English?
Maggie
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM
The single greatest force of assimilation in this country is its
language;
to not compel immigrants to learn English as my parents did, is to
sentence
them to a lifetime of exclusion from the political and cultural life of
this nation.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:58:51 -0500
From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Re: help: address for fling, please
In a message dated 97-03-03 19:20:45 EST, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU writes:
Sorry to bother the list with this, but is anyone on with
the e-address for fling?
thankd!
beth simon
What is fling?
Johnnie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:52:39 -0500
From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Daddy-o
The earliest quote in OED2:
\1949 Music Libr. Assoc. Notes Dec. 42 Daddy-o, friend, buddy. Originated
with Negro musicians.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 17:56:54 -0600
From: Thelma Casso tc010190[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMIU.EDU
Subject: No subject given
ADS-L THELMA CASSO
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 19:23:23 -0500
From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU
Subject: Re: daddy-o
re: daddy-o
I remember that at least as far back as the 1940's people greeted each other
with the phrase, "whatchu know, daddy-o?". They were imitating people that
they thought of as "hep cats"-- those people in and around the jazz scene.
Sometimes the greeting was accompanied by a cool bopping walk and a snap of the
fingers ;
I also wonder if the daddy part of this phrase might have something to do with
people who were "living large" since other phrases that were also popular
around that time were: Big Daddy (usually a name for a powerful figure) and
Sugar Daddy (a "sponsor"). Other examples include Sweet Daddy, Daddy Grace and
Daddy Warbucks(?).
Barbara Hill Hudson
IUP
(on spring break)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:40:47 +1100
From: Pauline Bryant pbryant[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACRAE.COM.AU
Subject: Re: Homely
'Homely' in Australian English can mean both unpretentious (of things)
and plain (of people).
The Macquarie Dictionary, Australia's national dictionary, defines it as
1. proper or suited to the home or to ordinary domestic life; plain;
unpretentious: [example] homely fare.
2. not good-looking; plain: [example] a homely girl.
The latter is considerd a kinder way of saying 'plain', but does not
mean 'ugly'. Both senses would probably be used more by older speakers
now.
As for wrapping houses in toilet paper, I have not seen this done, but
festooning trees with unrolled toilet paper is done sometimes in
Australia where it is considered rather uncouth but an expression of
youthful exuberance that can be tolerated - the sort of thing that
university students do when they have been drinking to celebrate the end
of the exams or whatever.
Leslie Dunkling wrote:
1895 Westm. Gaz. 31 Jan. 3/2, I may tell you we are all homely girls. We
don't want any la-di-da members.
"What does the word "homely" mean to Brits?"
In this instance I think it meant "unpretentious." When I first saw a
reference to "a homely woman" many years ago I assumed that it meant a
woman who was domesticated. I was very surprised to find that in American
English it can mean "ugly." (Equally surprised to learn now that American
children sometimes wrap houses in toilet paper. British kids would think
this a great idea.) But "homely" has long meant "plain," and that word can
obviously mean of plain appearance as well as unpretentious in speech and
behaviour.
I have never heard "homey" used in Britain, though I would assume it to
mean "cosy" if it occurred.
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1997 to 4 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997
There are 10 messages totalling 405 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. conference announcement
2. Yankonics (2)
3. Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) (2)
4. Re[2]: daddy-o (3)
5. Ebonics, Yankonics
6. Anudda Bumpa Sticka
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:35:45 +100
From: Edgar Schneider edgar.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE
Subject: conference announcement
International Symposium / Symposium International
Degrees of Restructuring in Creole Languages /
Degres de restructuration dans les langues creoles
24-27 June 1998
University of Regensburg, Germany
Call for Papers
In recent years, creole studies has increasingly returned to the
question of creole genesis. Hall's conventional model of creolization
as spontaneous language generation by a first generation of children
has turned out to be too idealized and hardly tenable. Recent
work suggests that, presumably, creolization did not happen abruptly
but rather gradually, and that the rate and intensity of creolization varied
from one creole region to another. In this context, the notion of "restructuring"
has become increasingly important. The term denotes processes of linguistic,
particularly morphosyntactic, change which have systematized and autonomized tendencies
inherent in contact languages. Parallels between creoles with different base languages
suggest the existence of certain recurrent patterns of
restructuring, but the restructuring process as such has
apparently not affected all creoles to the same extent. Several varieties, sometimes
called "semi-creoles" or the like, appear to have been restructured only partially, a
fact which obviously assigns special importance to them for the understanding of
creolization. In this light, the very notions of "creole" and "creolization" are to
be interpreted as scalar rather than dichotomous phenomena.
The International Symposium at the University of Regensburg is
intended to promote a better understanding of the processes of
partial restructuring in creolization, to support the development of
theoretical models of this process, and to encourage further and improved
descriptive analyses of the varieties in question, some of which are still
insufficiently documented. Papers which are relevant to this topic are invited.
Both empirical studies of any of the varieties in question and theoretical discussions
of the issues just mentioned, preferably papers which combine both aspects, will be we
lcomed. Papers should take 30 minutes, to be followed by 15 minutes of discussion.
Conference languages are English and French. A one-page abstract should be
sent to either of the organizers by June 30, 1997. Proposals for papers will be reviewed,
and notifications of acceptance will be sent out soon afterwards.
Upon request, a slightly more comprehensive project description is
available in English or French. For further information, contact one of the organizers:
Prof. Dr. Ingrid Neumann-Holzschuh
University of Regensburg
Institut fuer Romanistik
D-93040 Regensburg, Germany
phone: +-49-941-943-3381/3376
fax: +-49-941-9433302
e-mail: ingrid.neumann-holzschuh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de
Prof. Dr. Edgar W. Schneider
University of Regensburg
Institut fuer Anglistik und Amerikanistik
D-93040 Regensburg, Germany
phone: +-49-941-943-3470
fax: +-49-941-9431990
e-mail: edgar.schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de
Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de
University of Regensburg, Institut fuer Anglistik
D-93040 Regensburg, Germany
phone +-49-941-9433470
fax +-49-941-9431990 (NOTE: New fax no.!)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:04:11 +0000
From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Subject: Re: Yankonics
Would the person who wrote the entertaining piece on "Yankonics" a week or
two ago please send it to me again? I accidently deleted it and need it for
my research on
"Spanglonics"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 11:43:07 -0500
From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM
Subject: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
Peter Patrick:
You asked for a reasoned argument in favor of the English-only legislation,
and perhaps others would like one as well. I will attempt to oblige;
because I think at heart you and I agree on most of the essentials here,
but perhaps the media has done an inadequate job of explaining the logic
and scope of these laws.
I can encourage foreign language use/dialect learning and still want to
discourage them in _official_ contexts. I myself know a few, wish I knew
more, and I have a great interest in promoting dialect as a means of
literary expression. But I separate these private interests from what I
believe is in the best interests of the federal and state governments.
Whatever language is used in the home, English is the only logical choice
for _official_ functions, for the following reasons:
1) governments that are already deeply in debt will incur enormous expense
in reprinting all official materials (ballots, tax forms, registration
forms, licenses) in an indeterminate number of languages.
2) a public that is already heavily taxed will not want to pay for such
programs.
3) Most immigrants who have come to these shores were proud to learn
English, and themselves encouraged their children to learn it as a sign of
affection and gratitude for the nation that took them in and acknowledged
their right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
4) Producing native-language materials encourages immigrants not to learn
English, thus denying themselves full access to jobs, capital, information,
etc. in a majority English-speaking country. And that is a recipe for
social unrest.
5) English is de facto an official language anyway: this only insures that
it will remain this way, and that current politically correct attempts to
rewrite every facet of American culture will not jeopardize this.
All these laws say is that English will be the sole language used in
America for official contexts. There is no desire to alter or eliminate
what is taught in private schools, what can be used in private businesses,
at home, or in any other non-official capacity. Of course, if one is a
believer in the state's "obligation" to intrude itself in every aspect in
human life as some in the media are, I could see how the public/private
distinction would be ignored.
Languages are SCIENTIFICALLY value neutral; but they are SOCIALLY valued. I
do not see any inherent contradiction in studying "ain't" for example, or
the double modals which have recently gotten so much attention here, and
then writing a journal article in which one studiously avoids such
constructions, perceiving them to be inappropriate. When I studied
sociobiology, we often discussed murder/rape/theft as behaviors and
cost/benefit strategies, leaving aside any moral judgements of those
actions. Yet most of us understood on a human level that such actions were
morally reprehensible. Some people were unable to make that distinction,
however, and this is one of the reasons that E.O.Wilson was so vehemently
criticized for his pioneer work "Sociobiology".
=46inally, the English-only laws do not contradict the LSA quotes you posted=
:
the LSA points seem to be focusing solely on private usage of languages. I
would be unalterably opposed to ANY ban on what language/dialect can be
used privately; I think that most Americans would strongly agree. That kind
of legislation is wholly tyrannical and has no place in American law.
And still, there is nothing in those quotes that precludes the state from
acknowledging the most frequently used language as having exclusive
official-use status, for the reasons I have enumerated above. Think about
how awfully the media reports on the ebonics or cloning issue, and then
imagine how easily they could distort the facts behind what are really
common sense laws.
Just for the record, I don't pretend at my young age and experience to be a
linguist, just a fascinated student of human nature. And far be it from me
to question anyone's English skills right when I'm asserting that my
parents are "compelling people to learn English". :)
-Claudio
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:30:59 -0500
From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: Yankonics
May I suggest we drop the misleading suffix "-onics" in our discussions
(whether serious or in jest) of dialects? If "Spanglonics" is the
sound system of Spanish-English, it is obviously only one aspect of a
complex and well-documented variety of English (see the many references
cited here recently by Garland Bills). More importantly, the term is
just one more (potentially) pejorative label in a package of already
negative terms for negatively valued ways of speaking. Do we really
want to encourage the use of such terms? Are we seriously doing
"research" under the -onics rubric?
I have just spent an entire week on Black English and Hispanic English
in my undergraduate class on dialects, I've participated in a public
forum on "Ebonics," and I've been interviewed by a local newspaper on
the Ebonics controversy, and every single African American I've talked
with in these settings (including the newspaper reporter) has expressed
dislike for the -onics term. Why on earth would researchers want to
extend the use of the suffix? I hope Rose Nash isn't really doing
"research" on Spanglonics; on the other hand, I hope she isn't joking
either.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:48:29 -0600
From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU
Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
Some thoughts for Claudio:
You asked for a reasoned argument in favor of the English-only legislation,
and perhaps others would like one as well. I will attempt to oblige;
because I think at heart you and I agree on most of the essentials here,
but perhaps the media has done an inadequate job of explaining the logic
and scope of these laws.
1) governments that are already deeply in debt will incur enormous expense
in reprinting all official materials (ballots, tax forms, registration
forms, licenses) in an indeterminate number of languages.
Governments already deeply in debt have had no problem that I am aware of
with translating materials into a few other languages--for users of
languages other than some really high volume ones like Spanish, Mandarin,
Polish, etc., governments typically allow interpreters to be used, e.g. in
voting booths.
2) a public that is already heavily taxed will not want to pay for such
programs.
They already are paying, the programs are not expensive at all, and
taxpayers in general are not complaining.
3) Most immigrants who have come to these shores were proud to learn
English, and themselves encouraged their children to learn it as a sign of
affection and gratitude for the nation that took them in and acknowledged
their right to pursue life, liberty and happiness.
What's the point? Immigrants today are still proud to learn English.
They're still doing it. Perhaps we should just pass a law demanding that
they express their gratitude to those of us whose parents got here first.
4) Producing native-language materials encourages immigrants not to learn
English, thus denying themselves full access to jobs, capital, information,
etc. in a majority English-speaking country. And that is a recipe for
social unrest.
Materials like the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were
reproduced in German and other languages, and it did help lead to social
unrest I suppose. I doubt any of us would have it any other way, though.
5) English is de facto an official language anyway: this only insures that
it will remain this way, and that current politically correct attempts to
rewrite every facet of American culture will not jeopardize this.
Here's the crux--it's aimed squarely at multi-culturalism. If
Euro-American culture isn't strong enough to stand on its own against
elements of other cultures, tough. This is the same old anti-immigrant
rhetoric that rises from the muck periodically in American History. I'm
sick of it.
Gregory J. Pulliam
Illinois Institute of Technology
Lewis Department of Humanities
Chicago, IL 60616
gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 12:52:37 CST
From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: daddy-o
Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by
African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard
it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was.
It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father)
more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research.
ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:23:37 -0500
From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: daddy-o
Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by
African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard
it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was.
It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father)
more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research.
The entry for this in the Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang shows that it is rather widespread; we have thirteen
cites from 1909 (the DARE cite) to 1980 in the sense 'a male lover,
boyfriend, or husband, esp. the lover of a prostitute', and seven
cites, mostly from blues songs, from 1923 (again DARE) to 1935, in
direct address.
Jesse Sheidlower
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 18:09:00 -0500
From: Al Futrell awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU
Subject: Re: Re[2]: daddy-o
On Wed, 5 Mar 1997, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:
Can anyone comment on the purported use of "daddy" to mean lover by
African-Americans (same hep era?)? I saw this in DARE and have heard
it in songs (e.g. Billie Holiday) and wondered how prevalent it was.
It might be one explanation for the use of the term "daddy" (=father)
more frequently by whites than by blacks in my research.
The entry for this in the Random House Historical Dictionary of
American Slang shows that it is rather widespread; we have thirteen
cites from 1909 (the DARE cite) to 1980 in the sense 'a male lover,
boyfriend, or husband, esp. the lover of a prostitute', and seven
cites, mostly from blues songs, from 1923 (again DARE) to 1935, in
direct address.
I might also note that "daddy" was used among hoboes and boxmen to
refer to what most of us would probably call a pederast. It is also used
in many prisons similarly, but it often just refers to an older man
taking care of a younger man -- sexual activity is usually part of the
relationship.
Al Futrell
-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu
-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01
Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:31:24 -0500
From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM
Subject: Ebonics, Yankonics
Alas, I am one of those of whom Beverly Flanigan disapproves, having
tried to make fun of "Ebonics" and the -onics suffix. But I have my
reasons, which go something like this.
When I first subscribed to the ADS list I was disturbed to find
reputable academics using the word "Ebonics" with respect, as if it were
an acceptable linguistic term. It isn't. It is an appalling neologism
that should be condemned outright by the academic community.
I hope it is clear that saying that about "Ebonics" in no way comments
on the social dialect the word attempts to describe, nor does it
express a view as to whether that dialect should be used officially
in schools or anywhere else. The criticism is of a word, nothing else.
We are told that "Ebonics" is a blend of "ebony" and -"phonics." Okay,
let's look at "ebony." The OED entry for the word has as one of its
meanings (4a.): As the type of intense blackness. son of ebony:
humorously = Negro. Also attrib., as in ebony complexion, skin, etc.
Meaning 4b. is simply: A Negro. Melville uses Ebony in that sense in
_Moby Dick_: "The old black came shambling along from his galley; this
old Ebony floundered along." The OED also quotes Farmer's _Americanisms_
of 1889: "An ebony is a negro in common parlance."
Did you notice that "humorously = Negro"? For "humorously" read
"condescendingly, patronizingly, disparagingly, derogatively."
And what of "-phonics"? Can anyone pretend for a moment that this means
"social dialect"? Or did the inventor of this word mean it to apply
only to the phonetic characteristics of black American speech? Of
course he didn't. He was simply trying, with no justification
whatsoever, to give a totally new meaning to an established word. All
in all, then, "Ebonics" is a nonsensical creation, unnecessary in the
first place because more appropriate terms already existed. Worst of
all, it insults in itself the very people it most concerns.
Beverly Flanigan asks whether anyone is "seriously doing research under
the -onics rubric?" I sincerely hope not. But if enough people laugh at
"Ebonics," by inventing similarly ridiculous terms, it may with any luck
become impossible for anyone to use the word at all.
And finally - I am mildly surprised that Beverly should have linked her
remarks to "Yankonics," condemning that piece by implication. I thought
it an excellently written spoof, very funny. So did the born-and-bred
Bostonian friend to whom I sent it. Congratulations to Duane Campbell.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 20:56:59 -0500
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU
Subject: Anudda Bumpa Sticka
from a correspondent in Minnesota:
After Nixon's big Billy Graham embrace, at 15th Street Meeting in New York
we printed up some bumper stickers, one of which I still have: Richard
Nixon is a Graham Quaker.
obADS? Lay perception of variation okay in jokey pronunciation.
Best,
Bethany
Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law
Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu
415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX)
University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process
Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1997 to 5 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997
There are 14 messages totalling 370 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. conference announcement (creole languages) (2)
2. No problemo (4)
3. No problemo -Reply (2)
4. Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
5. No subject given
6. Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg) (2)
7. Yankonics & Spanglonics (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 1997 23:17:42 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM
Subject: conference announcement (creole languages)
"In recent years, creole studies has increasingly returned to the
question of creole genesis. Hall's conventional model of creolization
as spontaneous language generation by a first generation of children
has turned out to be too idealized and hardly tenable...."
There goes everything I thought I knew about creole languages.
Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 09:52:44 -0500
From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Re: conference announcement (creole languages)
There goes everything I
thought I knew about
creole languages.
Dan Goodman
Sounds like Dan needs to attend the conference nd tell tose folks what the
TRUTH really is, eh? :-)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 11:56:12 +0000
From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: No problemo
btw "Kein Problem" *is* heard in Germany but not as frequently as "Keine
Angst," but since I was in an Amerikanisches Institute it may be a
calque limited to germans studying English.
In Cancun last year I was told by a guide that the Jamaicans say "No
Problem" and we [mexicans] say "No Solution."
--
_____________________________________________________________________
bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens
Ellis Hall 114c
tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: Fri 10-12
fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:17:55 -0700
From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX
Subject: Re: No problemo
I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other
languages have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much:
In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay
problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the
same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is
"Ningun problema" (where there might perhaps be a certain influence from
English), which is, however, limited to a subset of contexts (and
meanings) of all those corresponding to "No hay problema".
Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive
in many other varieties of Spanish.
Best regards,
Max E.
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, David Bergdahl wrote:
btw "Kein Problem" *is* heard in Germany but not as frequently as "Keine
Angst," but since I was in an Amerikanisches Institute it may be a
calque limited to germans studying English.
In Cancun last year I was told by a guide that the Jamaicans say "No
Problem" and we [mexicans] say "No Solution."
--
_____________________________________________________________________
bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens
Ellis Hall 114c
tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: Fri 10-12
fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 15:55:37 -0500
From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM
Subject: Re: No problemo -Reply
Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX 0306.1517
I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other languages
have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much:
In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay
problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the
same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is
"Ningun problema" [...].
Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive in
many other varieties of Spanish.
This sounds like a good candidate for the source of "no problemo": heard
by non-Spanish-speaking anglophone Americans and reduced to the two
obvious cognates, with the final /a/ changed to /o/ as described in
previous posts as a long-standing change in English borrowings from
Spanish.
Enrique, what's the rhythm and stress like in the Cuban expression?
Specifically, is "hay" [ay] stressed or not? This candidacy would be
stronger if the stress is on "no" and "problema" than if "hay" is stressed.
Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:06:48 -0500
From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU
Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
I'm still waiting for a reasoned argument proving the merits of
English Only. Especially, I'm still waiting for ANY argument on
linguistic or sociolinguistic grounds...
Meanwhile, a couple of points in response to Claudio:
--Printing documents: On 9/27/95 the Washington Post reported the
results of a study by the General Accounting Office on govt. documents
printed in languages other than English. Of about 400,000 titles, the
GAO found only 265, or 0.06%. 221 of these were in Spanish, 12 in
French, and 17 in multiple languages; the other 15 were in 10 other
languages, incl. Portuguese and Ukrainian. "The bulk of the titles
concerned safety and health issues and explanations of Social Security
programs" and tax advice, which the govt. is at pains to get everyone
to comply with, and which many English Only sponsors consider
legitimate. The cost is not listed, but ...
--Pride in English is not a sensible motivation for legislation banning other
languages. Should Texas ban the football teams of other states?
Shouldn't we ban Chinese food too?
A number of the other arguments were of this sort, either
irrelevant to the issue of language legislation or without apparent logic
or unsupported by any facts (e.g. the idea that foreign language
materials lead to social unrest... on the other hand, maybe that's
what caused the big fight in my high school Spanish class...)
--this was yet another of the many occasions on which I've seen people
say that English is our "de facto official language". Anyone who can
say that with a straight face and still support English Only is a
great argument against it, all by themselves...
--I came to suspect part way through the reply that Mr. Salvucci is
not familiar with any of the texts of the English Only legislation in
question, and didn't read the LSA resolution any too carefully either,
if he thinks it refers only to "private use". Am I imagining things,
or hasn't the language of instruction in public schools been an issue
in language legislation over the last 25 years? just to take one
example...
all in all, this is about what one usually sees from
proponents of the policy, which makes it hard to understand why it is
ever taken seriously on the grounds of logic rather than simple bias.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:09:01 -0500
From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM
Subject: No subject given
A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, Larry Horn wrote:
Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.ycc.yale.edu 0214.1436
Reminds me: why does it seem like so many SF writers, when
inventing names, use an abundance of apostrophes and letters "K"
and "Q"?
Grant Barrett
I hate to generalize in the absence of extensive empirical support, but
having just seen Star Wars (Special Edition), I was reminded of the fact
that aliens by and large certainly do seem to spend a lot of time vocalizing
in the region of pharanxes, uvulas, and the extraterrestrial analogues
thereof. ("I have no mouth and I must scream, so I guess I'll have to settle
for clearing my throat a lot.") I think Marc Okrand's version of Klingon
makes extensive use of ejectives, pharyngeals, laryngeals, and/or
glottals as well.
Okrand's Klingon has
velar x, gamma, ng (including initial)
uvular stop q and ejective qX
glottal stop
Other "dark"-sounding phonemes are
retroflex S and D (but alveolar t and n)
lax ([-ATR]?) I and epsilon (but tense u and o)
Experience with the glottal stop, uvulars, velar fricatives was really
helpful when I took Arabic!
Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:58:07 CST
From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU
Subject: Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
Has anybody else noticed the irony of this header?
And I'm sure we all know that it doesn't cost any more to print a document that is written in a
language other than English---the paper and ink cost the same, and the translation is often done
by volunteers. If they were spending big money on it, some of us would probably be working as
government translators. Last time I was unemployed and checked it out, there was very little
need and the pay even worse than higher education.
ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 14:44:32 -0700
From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX
Subject: Re: No problemo -Reply
The expression sounds something like this:
[nwajproblema], the main stress on the syllable [ble], the
secondary stress on [nwaj].
With verbs like *haber*, *ser*, *estar*, in particular, *no* is regularly
unstressed, "proclitic".
Thus, "no+hay" results in [nwaj] or, in a slightly more careful
pronunciation, in [noaj] (stress on [a], being [oa], in fact, a diphthong).
There is no pause, by the way, between [nwaj] and [pro...], so there are
two stress groups (no pause in between): [nwajpro][blema].
Another quite usual expression is "Sin problema(s)!", mostly as an answer
concerning the adressee's health, state of affairs, work, etc.
"Ningun problema" I think is most usual as an (affirmative) answer to
a request (e.g.: "Do you think you could give me a hand with this work?"
or "Do you think you can handle the task?"). "No hay problema" also
covers this use, where, as I said before, is more usual than the former,
at least in Cuba.
Best regards,
Max E.
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Mark Mandel
wrote:
Enrique Figueroa E. efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX 0306.1517
I hadn't meant to participate in this discussion, but, since other languages
have been mentioned, I have felt I might contribute this much:
In Cuban Spanish, for a very long time now, the expression "No hay
problema" (There's no problem) is highly frequent in almost exactly the
same use as in (American?) English. Less frequent, but also heard, is
"Ningun problema" [...].
Both expressions, and especially the first one, I'm sure are quite alive in
many other varieties of Spanish.
This sounds like a good candidate for the source of "no problemo": heard
by non-Spanish-speaking anglophone Americans and reduced to the two
obvious cognates, with the final /a/ changed to /o/ as described in
previous posts as a long-standing change in English borrowings from
Spanish.
Enrique, what's the rhythm and stress like in the Cuban expression?
Specifically, is "hay" [ay] stressed or not? This candidacy would be
stronger if the stress is on "no" and "problema" than if "hay" is stressed.
Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 22:59:14 +0000
From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics
Beverly Flanigan, lighten up -- of course I was joking! How could anyone
take these terms seriously? The story was funny, and I wanted to share it
with colleagues who are not yet slaves to the Internet.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:46:06 -0500
From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics
I agree that the story could have been funny--EXCEPT for the fact that
adding the suffix -onics and noting that the school board did NOT
intend to ask for federal funds and would NOT force all teachers to
learn Yankonics clearly alluded to the central points of the Oakland
case mocked and parodied by the media and (alas) us. Had the story
referred to "Yankee dialect" or "Yankee Talk" or "Down East Speech,"
and had it not made such obvious references interpretable only in the
current sociopolitical context, I would have laughed too--I've
collected and laughed at "East Enders" lexicon, Penn. Dutch Germanisms,
and, yes, "How to Talk Minnesotan." But, as someone else pointed out
on this list, in all these cases we're laughing at those who are "white
like us." So, no, I didn't think the story as presented was funny.
And no, I won't lighten up.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 18:20:26 -0700
From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Pro Anglica Sola (was:official lg)
I, for one, certainly have! It reminds me of the famous "SPEAK HINDI, YOUR
NATIONAL LANGUAGE!", placed, if I recall correctly, on the front of New
Delhi's Main Post Office...
Ciao!
M.E.
On Thu, 6 Mar 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote:
Has anybody else noticed the irony of this header?
And I'm sure we all know that it doesn't cost any more to print a
document that is written in a language other than English---the paper
and ink cost the same, and the translation is often done by
volunteers. If they were spending big money on it, some of us would
probably be working as government translators. Last time I was
unemployed and checked it out, there was very little need and the pay
even worse than higher education.
ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 21:40:13 -0600
From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject: Re: No problemo
"No problemo" would mean "I don't problematize" if 'problemar' meant 'to
problematize'. Or would it be problematicize? Is all this problematic?
Or is it troublesome? (Not 100% serious, but I've partially buried a usage
nugget or two here.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 1997 23:49:02 EST
From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Re: No problemo
Donald Lance observes:
"No problemo" would mean "I don't problematize" if 'problemar' meant 'to
problematize'. Or would it be problematicize? Is all this problematic?
Or is it troublesome? (Not 100% serious, but I've partially buried a usage
nugget or two here.)
It occurs to me that "no problemo" bears the same relation to Spanish that
"gazebo" does to Latin. Right, it's supposedly 'I shall gaze', or would be if
gazere were a Latin verb (borrowed, presumably, from the Old Norse).
Larry
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1997 to 6 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997
There are 10 messages totalling 278 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Fargo (2)
2. No problemo (a previous mistake)
3. Pro Anglica Sola
4. Henry Warkentyne
5. Legal help wanted: linguist or lexicographer
6. Mississippi on tape?
7. Yankonics & Spanglonics
8. Colleague Needs Help
9. No problemo
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 11:53:50 +0000
From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK
Subject: Fargo
The other night I watched the movie Fargo. I thought it was pretty
good, actually.
I was wondering how true-to-life the dialects were. My only
exposure to Minnesota speech is my aunt, and she speaks very similarly to
the characters in the movie. But it's very possible that Hollywood was
taking the stereotypical Minnesota accent and exploiting it, ya?
Just curious,
Aaron
___________________________________________________________________________
Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk
Supervised Postgraduate Student http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron
The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485
Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 07:33:59 -0700
From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX
Subject: No problemo (a previous mistake)
In my previous reply to your answer about stress, rythm, etc., in "No hay
problema", I erroneously wrote that "with verbs like *haber*, *ser*,
*estar*", *no* could never carry the stress. This is not so (I'm sorry for
having been too hasty in answering).
The truth is that *followed by a word (verb form or other) beginning with
a vowel*, the preceding *no*, in normal, unemphatic speech, will form a single
syllable with the first syllable of the following word and the newly formed
syllable will carry a secondary stress...
Thus, "no estaba" [nw,es][t'a][ba], "no iria" [nw,i][r'i][a], etc.
Notice that the phonetically "contrapted" form (to sort of join the merry
comments on "contraption/contraction") MUST always carry a stress, albeit
secondary, when a non-monosyllabic verb form follows (since these are not
stressed on the first syllable and, wherever they may carry the stress,
this will be the main stress of the whole construction).
One could say that, since the secondary stress would fall on *no* in
emphatic, careful and slow speech, when *no* "merges" with the following
syllable and its [o] becomes a semiconsonant, the stress will
automatically move onto the vowel of the "newly formed" syllable:
(emph.) "escuche" / "no escuche" [es][k'u][ce] / [n,o] [es][k'u][ce]
(unemph., but slower and/or more careful) "no escuche" [n,oes][k'u][ce]
(unemph., but faster and/or less careful) "no escuche" [n,wes][k'uce]
I must add this much: in other varieties of Spanish, instead of the
"weakening" of the first vowel, it's the second vowel that weakens
and becomes a semivowel or even disappears:
"no iria" [n,oj][r'i][a] / "no escuche" [n,os][k'u][ce] (this, I think, is
more typical of Mexico, as against the Cuban variety).
However, in order for this to happen, as I see it, there must follow a
CONSONANT, which isn't the case in "No hay problema", for the second
vowel is here followed by a SEMIVOWEL, which necessarily will result in
(not a diphthong, as I wrote earlier, but) a triphthong: [,waj].
I'm very sorry for my former mistake and, also, for this perhaps too
long, clumsy and cumbersome explanation. I sincerely hope all
"co-listers" and yourself will be indulgent. Best regards,
Max Enrique
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:18:54 -0500
From: "Claudio R. Salvucci" salvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETAXS.COM
Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola
Peter Patrick: If there is something in this law you claim I am neglecting,
elighten me. I want you to share with us text, chapter and verse of the
supposed laws that you say are "banning" other languages in anything but
official contexts. I submit that if academics want to be alarmist about
anything, they should be alarmist about being on the wrong end of budget
cuts in coming years, which is a very real possibility and thank goodness
for that. And please, show me where in that LSA excerpt you posted is there
any indication that it refers to "official" use.
As far as language use in the public schools, I'd rather dismantle
federal-run schools altogether; they have proven to be utter failures.
Private schools could teach in Hittite for all I care; if my money isn't
involved, it ain't my business. But when you're reaching into my back
pocket to teach anything to anyone that I think is silly, unnecessary, or
offensive, you better believe I'm going to raise Cain.
This "bias" charge is continually leveled, but never proven. Here's one
last assignment: prove to this list that I am the biased, jingoist straw
man that you need to see in me. Prove that I am not motivated by reason,
compassion, or historical perspective, but by an insidious, vituperative
racism which causes me to loathe immigrants and tremble in fear at the
thought of "contaminating" American culture. Prove that I cower in shame at
the "un-Americanness" in my background which damns me to a life of
self-denial and zealotry.
Lastly, Ellen Johnson expressed the opinion that the translation work will
be done by volunteers. I wonder if these are the same kind of "volunteers"
that the current Landlord of the White House uses in AmeriCorps, who by the
way, are paid. I do not have much confidence in the government's ability to
exercise fiscal restraint in this or any other matter.
-Claudio
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:42:49 -0500
From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Henry Warkentyne
Message from Barbara Harris on Thursday, March 6:
Henry Warkentyne died last week. He suffered a massive stroke a week ago
today -- on the golf course, playing with a longtime friend, on the most
beautiful day we've had in weeks -- and died on Friday evening without
regaining consciousness. The funeral was yesterday in the University
Interfaith Chapel, conducted by the United Church chaplain, and the place was
packed -- a great tribute to Henry from the University community. He was in
his 71st year.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:43:12 -0500
From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Legal help wanted: linguist or lexicographer
This just in! Please reply directly to her if you're interested. - Allan
Metcalf
-------------------------------------------
Hello,
Zippo Dot Com, DBA "Zippo's News Service, operates a group of commercial and
public news servers on the Internet. We have been in operation since early
1995 providing; headline news, usenet news, feature stories, and section
showcasing the art and music of Internet participants.
At the end of October 1996, we were sued in Pennsylvania by Zippo
Manufacturing Company, the producer of cigarette lighters, who were seeking;
our domain name, trademark registrations, company assets, and all revenue
generated since the service began. We sued Zippo Manufacturing in
California, our home state. The case is posted at http://super.zippo.com and
http://www.zippo.com. This is just one of the many, many suits launched by
large companies against smaller established Internet companies, as the
larger organizations seek a monopoly control of the use of common English
words. In this case, Zippo Manufacturing already holds several domain names,
such as "zippomfg.com" and "lighter", all tied to one small web site which
is an ad for Zippo Lighters and an on-line store marketing lighters to the
Internet.
The word "zippo" was selected by our service as being synonymous with the
words "nothing", or "zero". This was reflective of the financial resources
we had when we initiated the service. The word has seen popular public use
in speeches, magazines, movies, names of businesses, and a component of
other company trademarks. In addition, we had several trademark searches
conducted before we elected to use the word, and the trademark office had
accepted numerous trademark applications from us, all inclusive of the word
"zippo".
We have done a considerable amount of research into the history and use of
the word since the suit was filed, however, we are in need to an expert in,
we believe, lexicography, who can conduct independent research of the word
"zippo". We are interested in the words historical use, origins, current
place in the English language and in documented public use of the word. A
report on such findings would be in the form of an affidavit, and the
individual preparing the report may serve as an expert witness, providing
court testimony. We are not a large company, but we can afford to pay
reasonable fees for time and effort.
Thank you for your attention.
Sincerely,
Cindy Esco
Zippo Dot Com
Email: cindy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zippo.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:43:35 -0500
From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Mississippi on tape?
If you can help this student, please do so. Post your answer to ADS-L as
well, if you know of a good source! - Allan Metcalf
------------------------------------
I am a
student of acting in New York City in search of an audio tape of a
Mississippi
dialect. The scene I'm in for school is "Summer and Smoke" by Tennessee
Williams, and I'd love to learn about Mississippi and do the whole state
justice
with my voice. Any suggestions or ideas about how to proceed? Any help
would
be greatly appreciated. Thanks again!
Geeda Searfoorce
Temp-55582[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usccmail.lehman.com
(212) 526-5582
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 15:49:53 -0500
From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Yankonics & Spanglonics
Thanks to Beverly Flanigan for pointing out the difference between a harmless
joke and a joke with a racist subtext.
Can we not now stop this -onics/-bonics stuff and go on to something that has
not been hashed and rehashed and rehashed again?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 16:09:35 -0500
From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU
Subject: Colleague Needs Help
I just received this message from a colleague in the College of Law. Can
anybody help?
Thanks,
Bethany
-----forwarded message-----
I need to get a document printed out in Montreal, Canada, on
Monday or Tuesday for delivery to an office there. If I can do this
email or otherwise electronically, I will be able to have it in on
time.
If you know someone in Montreal, who uses email, and would be
willing to share the name and email address, I would appreciate it.
Believe it or not, Kinko's doesn't provide this service!
Thanks for any help you can give.
-----end message-----
Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law
Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu
415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX)
University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process
Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 17:08:28 -0600
From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject: Re: No problemo
Larry Horn observes:
It occurs to me that "no problemo" bears the same relation to Spanish that
"gazebo" does to Latin. Right, it's supposedly 'I shall gaze', or would be if
gazere were a Latin verb (borrowed, presumably, from the Old Norse).
Every time I see or hear 'gazebo' I have an echo of a character in a movie
or play (i.e. tv version of a play) that I saw on tv about 1960. A
sophisticated person had engaged a small-town builder to construct a gazebo
on her estate. They discussed the matter several times. In each
conversation, he said gaze-bo, several times. She would, seeming to be
unaffected by his pronunciation, refer to the gazebo several times in the
conversation, and he was completely unaffected by her subtle attempt to
educate him. He spoke a rather "country" dialect, but not Southern as I
vaguely recall. For what it's worth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 18:36:36 -0500
From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: Fargo
Ya, you bet! Although there was some exaggeration for comic effect, of
course, in general the accents in "Fargo" were pretty good Minnesotan
(to parody Garrison Keillor, whose principal scriptwriter and author of
_How to Talk Minnesotan_ lives in my hometown). Of course, not
_everyone_ from Minnesota talks like that. . . .
Beverly (Olson) Flanigan
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1997 to 7 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997
There are 5 messages totalling 94 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Pro Anglica Sola
2. Mississippi dialect (2)
3. Mississippi on tape?
4. Hypercorrection
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 08:17:48 -0500
From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU
Subject: Re: Pro Anglica Sola
Since you don't wanna talk about language, let's take it off the list.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:15:36 +0000
From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Subject: Re: Mississippi dialect
TO Geeda Seerforce:
Although it is not a tape that you can listen to, you may find the following
book
interesting and helpful: MANUAL OF AMERICAN DIALECTS FOR RADIO, STAGE,
SCREEN AND TELEVISION by Lewis and Marguerite Shallett Herman (Theatre Arts
Books, 333 Sixth Avenue, New York, 1947), Library of Congress Catalog Card
Number 59-13238. The 30-page chapter on the Southern dialect of that era
describes the three regional dialects, and covers such topics as lilt and
stress, the Southern drawl, vowel changes, unstressed syllables, dropped
syllables, reversed syllables, substituted syllables, important consonant
changes, grammar changes, and common expressions. The numerous examples and
drill words are given in a spelling-based phonetic transcription ("niOO" for
new, "slOH:li" for slowly, "prAHbli" for probably), but there is a
conversion table to IPA symbols on the inside front cover. Vincent Price
wrote the Foreword.
If you want to consult this book and can't find it in the library, send me
your address and I can photocopy the chapter for you.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 13:13:24 -0600
From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: Mississippi on tape?
I've contacted the questioner directly about DARE's Mississippi tapes, but
others might be interested to know that our NEH project to duplicate our
large collection of tapes and make them available for scholarly use is
nearing completion. All the tapes have been duplicated, and we are in the
process of compiling a detailed list with Informant data (age, sex, race,
community, amount of education) and with subject categories reflecting the
contents of the conversation. The list is taking longer than expected
(surprise!); but if people know what region they are interested in
investigating, they can look at the list of Informants in the intro to the
first volume of DARE, see which ones made tapes, and then contact us about
having duplicates made. The cost (for now) is $6.00 per cassette.
Joan Hall
Associate Editor, DARE
6125 Helen White Hall
600 N. Park St.
Madison, WI 53706
(608) 263-2744
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:31:00 -0600
From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject: Re: Mississippi dialect
TO Geeda Seerforce:
Rose Nash wrote:
Although it is not a tape that you can listen to, you may find the following
book
interesting and helpful: MANUAL OF AMERICAN DIALECTS FOR RADIO, STAGE,
SCREEN AND TELEVISION by Lewis and Marguerite Shallett Herman (Theatre Arts
Books, 333 Sixth Avenue, New York, 1947), Library of Congress Catalog Card
Number 59-13238.
The Hermans also did a book on "foreign dialects," same publisher but 1943.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 21:36:01 -0600
From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU
Subject: Hypercorrection
An poem, anonymous author, from THE CHERRY TREE: A COLLECTION OF POEMS
CHOSEN BY GEOFFREY GRIGSON. Vanguard Press, 1959.
Beg Parding
'Beg parding, Mrs. Harding,
Is my kitting in your garding?'
'Is your kitting in my garding?
Yes she is, and all alone,
Chewing on a mutting bone.'
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1997 to 8 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997
There are 6 messages totalling 168 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Ebonics, Yankonics
2. Another inauguration: April 4, Fairfax, Virginia
3. Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant
4. "punk" a la 60s
5. All purpose arguments (2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 09:55:53 -0500
From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU
Subject: Re: Ebonics, Yankonics
Beverly Flanigan asks whether anyone is "seriously doing research under
the -onics rubric?" I sincerely hope not. But if enough people laugh at
"Ebonics," by inventing similarly ridiculous terms, it may with any luck
become impossible for anyone to use the word at all.
Hopefully enough people will recognise it as a bad idea and we'll both
get our wish. I think the reason why Rush Lindbaugh has been ridiculing
it so much on his show is because he thinks it was a stupid idea to begin
with; nothing to do with him being a racist(contrary to popular belief,
conservative does not equal racist). This doesn't mean that individual
teachers shouldn't use whatever experimental means necessary to get through
to inner city kids. Maybe we should just get out of the way and let
teachers teach rather than let Washington throw money at it.(Can't you
tell I'm turning libertarian in my old age? :-))
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 11:24:19 -0500
From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Another inauguration: April 4, Fairfax, Virginia
Is there an ADS member who would like to represent us on the occasion of Dr.
Alan G. Merten's inauguration as president of George Mason University in
Fairfax, Virginia, in the afternoon of Friday, April 4?
Please let me know. You might like it!
- Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Executive Secretary
American Dialect Society
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:18:47 -0500
From: "David W. Donnell" dthunder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CONCENTRIC.NET
Subject: Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant
Christopher R. Coolidge wrote:
I think the reason why Rush Lindbaugh has been ridiculing
[Ebonics] so much on his show is because he thinks it was a stupid idea to
begin
with; nothing to do with him being a racist
On the contrary, I think Rush's being a racist *does* have something to do
with his ridiculing Ebonics. (Is it just a *coincidence* all those die-hard
Limbaugh fans I know *love* to use the N-word.) There is a distinct
political agenda behind the misinformation in such so-called 'humor'.
(contrary to popular belief, conservative does not equal racist).
Q: Did you hear about the Miss Limbaughnics Beauty Pageant?
A: Everyone wanted to represent the State of Denial.
(...or something like that.) The phrase "contrary to popular belief" speaks
volumes about the victim-mentallity behind the Limbaugh Militia. They cry
into their Budweiser together about their loss of power in a Democracy.
- David W. Donnell
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 14:36:05 -0500
From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM
Subject: Re: "punk" a la 60s
In the early 1970s I interviewed a number of teenagers of both races in
Asheville, NC, for a sociolinguistic project. The term "punk" very definitely
meant 'homosexual' among the black kids in Asheville in those days. I
specifically remember two kids telling me about a local minister, who they
said was an decent guy aS LONG AS YOU DIDN'T GET LEFT ALONE WITH HIM, "cuz he
is a punk and he will try to punk you." Of course, PUNK has been used in that
way in prison slang for a long time.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 18:08:57 -0600
From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US
Subject: All purpose arguments
I read Claudio's five reasons why we need an English-only law, and I was
struck by the form of the arguments. They sound like they are from a set of
templates for or against any ideas you don't like, and they could be
circulated by some organization that opposes any attempt to treat humans
with some kindness and flexibility, especially those who are not completely
involved in the dominant culture.
I could imagine, for example, that the arguments, with a few changes of
nouns, could have been used against the building of ramps on buildings for
people in wheelchairs, in fact, most of the ADA ideas: it costs too much; we
are taxed too much already; they (the disabled) should try to get along and
do the best they can (after all, we let them live with us, don't we?);
giving them advantages the rest don't have is a recipe for social unrest; be
practical -- let them adjust to the status quo. And so on.
Indeed, if as Claudio says, English is the de facto language, then it needs
no defense. To do so would be redundant.
One argument being used in Wisconsin by the son-of-an-immigrant legislator
is that people SHOULD be forced to learn the language of the dominant
culture. His parents, it seems, were not forced enough and continued to
speak broken English. Yet the legislature has refused to provide more funds
for ESL programs to help people move into English more quickly. It's funny
that they can't put their money where their mouths are. They are long on
sticks and short on carrots.
akra
Al Krahn ~ Milwaukee Area Technical College ~ 700 W. State St.
Milwaukee WI 53233 ~ 414/ W297-6519/ F297-7990
krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us ~ Owner PUNCT-L, a mailing list
for discussing punctuation. [{:-},./-_(;-/)]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 1997 21:00:14 +0000
From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET
Subject: Re: All purpose arguments
Albert E. Krahn wrote:
I could imagine, for example, that the arguments, with a few changes of
nouns, could have been used against the building of ramps on buildings for
people in wheelchairs
Sounds about right to me. In my small town (4500 people) we had to
install a 150,000 dollar elevator in our landmark 1890 court house. Gets
used maybe once a month to travel 18 feet. Anyone want to figure out the
milage cost for that?
Better still. I have been involved (until the following incident
occurred) in the restoration of an 1884 opera house into a performing
arts center. Pretty proud of it. A couple of years ago I was called to
write a grant application for 70 grand. Had to be done fast. The money
was waiting, and it had to be spent on some kind of handicap access in
an arts context. One of those agencies, faced with the end of the fiscal
year, had contacted us and asked us to take the money. Please. There is
now an elevator from the understage dressing rooms to the stage in this
300 seat theatre in this 4500 population town in case some disabled
dancer comes along.
But anyway, about ESL.
One argument being used in Wisconsin by the son-of-an-immigrant legislator
is that people SHOULD be forced to learn the language of the dominant
culture. His parents, it seems, were not forced enough and continued to
speak broken English. Yet the legislature has refused to provide more funds
for ESL programs to help
I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that
if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it.
There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier
immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most
part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the
always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is
failing. You figure it out.
Duane Campbell
dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net
When I die and go to Hell, at least I can keep my same ISP
------------------------------
End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1997 to 9 Mar 1997
**********************************************
Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Mar 1997 to 10 Mar 1997
There are 34 messages totalling 1611 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Questions about immigrants' learning of English (3)
2. No subject given (2)
3. your mail
4. Spanglish usage (4)
5. Re[2]: Questions about immigrants' learning of English
6. Spanglish usage (fwd) (2)
7. Don't "Kick Them Off" (8)
8. GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot'
9. Fwd: Writing Award (2)
10. GAY 'homosexual' NOT 'harlot' -Reply
11. non-members
12. Fargo (2)
13. Mencken's American Language (2)
14. New Subscriber Rules
15. Give me a break, etc
16. Prosodic features of dialect
17. Lurking
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 00:08:59 -0500
From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU
Subject: Questions about immigrants' learning of English
A lot of the discussion about English-only legislation (vs providing at least
some services for immigrants in their native language) seems to be making some
fairly strong assumptions about the extent to which adult immigrants learn
English in the absence of federally funded programs. To get the obvious out of
the way, my personal belief is that a lot of English-only proposals reflect
at best generalized frustration with the current mix in the melting pot and at
worst a pernicious racism. However, there's still a question lurking out there
that I haven't seen addressed, at least in the discussions on this list. And
that is: to what extent do adult working class immigrants acquire competence
in spoken English, let along in written English of the sort necessary to cope
with written forms?
Based on what I know of the Jewish immigrant experience in the late 19th and
early 20th centuries (in part from stories told in my own family), my
suspicion is that members of the immigrating generation often did not achieve
any degree of competence in English. For instance, I remember being told
(perhaps erroneously) that NYC subway trains had distinctive patterns of
colored lights at the front for the benefit of riders who could not read the
information about line and destination station that also appeared/s on each
train. The various Yiddish newspapers had advice columns that included letters
advising readers on coping with various aspects of life in _die goldene
medine_, including such problems as having to have one's small children
interpret in a variety of socially inappropriate situations (negotiations with
landlord, medical examinations) and then having them obey one. Given the long
hours that many immigrants worked, often in sweatshops with immigrants from
the same background, it seems unlikely that they would have had time for night
school English classes.
So, when people claim that their ancestors learned English when they came to
this country, without the aid of government programs, I have to wonder who
their ancestors were, whether they were literate at home, and how old they
were when they came here. It also seems to me that this is an area that can be
researched; there are diaries available, records from various settlement
houses, etc, and that this research could easily inform present debate.
Alice Faber
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:53:14 -0600
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: Questions about immigrants' learning of English
I think the confusion may lie in the difference between children learning
English and adults doing so. The research I have seen insists that today's
non-English speaking children are skipping the bilingual stage that has
usually been the intermediary between generations (monolingual L-1 parents,
bilingual children, monolingual L-2 grandchildren). I don't think there's
too much reported on what adults do. However, Dorothy Waggoner has some
new stats for adults (based on the 1990 Census) which show that the longer
one is in the US, the better one's spoken English tends to be (this is
based on self-reporting, of course). I don't think a lot of English gets
learned thru adult ESL programs. Rather it is by assimilation, on the job,
in the shops, playgrounds, socializing, and so forth. IE, in the natural
situations one would expect it to occur. This is not to say that school
doesn't help. Clearly it can.
Dennis
___
Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English office: 217-333-2392
University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street home: 217-384-1683
Urbana, Illinois 61801 http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:38:08 -0400
From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU
Subject: No subject given
Are you guys still for having non-ADS memebrs on the list? If unsupported
crap like the following continues to appear, how can we get any linguistics
(of any sort) done here?
I don't know who wrote this junk, but note that no piece of it is supported
by any of the common-knowldge stuff of the history of language status and
variety in the USA
For example:
1) There certainly were ESL programs in early waves of immigration
2) Everybody who came in the good old days did not learn English
3) What is the 'it' that government dollars are going into which is such an
abject failure? Not English teaching (whether in bilingual propgrams or
out). We are losing support for ESL in school funding (something you would
think English Only yahoos would support).
But the stuff I have reviewed has got so much junk in it that it is not
worth responding to (although I would not fault my freind Peter Patrick for
trying).
I used ot think that the 'folk linguist9ic' value of this junk was worth
keeping people on for. But I see enough in the 'opinion' columns and hear
quite enough around me. Let's kick them off and get back to linguisticss.
That's what this list is for.
And yes, lest someone supect that I do not think public policy and language
use facts constitute valid linguistic discussion topics, I should hasten to
point out that I I do. But there is a prerequisite of linguistic
sophistication to make those discussions worthwhile. Such stuff as the
below (and other now enormous amounts of stuff which I have just read with
horror after a trip) have no such sophistication. They represent political
expression by 'true believers' for whom linguistic facts (whether of a
cognitive OR social nature) have no value. Stop wasting my time with this
thinly-veiled racist, ethnocentric, ignorant stuff. I can buy any piece of
trash by Bell Bennett if I need a dose of uninformed opinion disguised as
resonable and/or academic discourse.
Kick 'em off, kick 'em off, kick 'em off!!
dInIs (the unamused linguist)
I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that
if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it.
There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier
immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most
part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the
always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is
failing. You figure it out.
Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)432-1235
Fax: (517)432-2736
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:58:00 +0000
From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET
Subject: No subject given
Dennis R. Preston wrote:
Are you guys still for having non-ADS memebrs on the list? If unsupported
crap like the following continues to appear, how can we get any linguistics
(of any sort) done here?
Thank you for your thoughtful response. It gives us non-academics a
standard to strive for.
1) There certainly were ESL programs in early waves of immigration
Since you kindly reprinted below the portions to which you respond, then
you can see that I did not say that there were no ESL programs in early
waves of immigration. I believe this is called the straw man falicy.I
said that there were no GOVERNMENT FUNDED ESL programs. Admittedly I did
not research turn-or-the-century federal budgets, but from my knowledge
of the nature of our government at that time I suspect I would find
nothing above the most local level, and even that scant except for
immigration centers.
2) Everybody who came in the good old days did not learn English
Again, please read the included fragment of my post. I did not say all
immigrants learned English. I said MOST NEW AMERICANS. My understanding
is that a basic competency in English was a requirement for citizenship.
3) What is the 'it' that government dollars are going into which is such an
abject failure?
The rules regarding antecedents are fairly straightforward and followed
in the passage to which you refer.
I have reread it and can find nothing other than "ESL programs" to which
the "it" might refer. There is obviously a problem here either with
basic writing skills or with basic reading skills.
I think one of the major transformations in our society is the idea that
if there is some problem, it should be the government that solves it.
There were no government funded ESL programs during our earlier
immigration waves, and the new Americans learned English for the most
part. Now we have tens of millions of government dollars (with the
always accompanying government regulations) going into it, and it is
failing. You figure it out.
Duane Campbell
dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net
http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/
Just a dumb Old Eli who earns his living writing
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 10:37:21 -0700
From: "Enrique Figueroa E." efiguero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAPOMO.USON.MX
Subject: Re: your mail
I'm not a member of ADS, but I agree with the spirit of your complaints,
since I, too, am a linguist.
I don't think "kickin' us (nonADSers) off" is fair or --most important--
useful to your purposes.
How about setting RESTRICTIONS to participants (of the kind you mention)?
Best regards,
Max E. Figueroa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 17:58:24 +0000
From: Rose Nash ROSENASH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLDNET.ATT.NET
Subject: Re: Spanglish usage
This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a
promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes.
On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN
BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked
the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure'
Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely
translate as "Give me a chance [to win]."
I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally
to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite
from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster
evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you
Spanglophiles out there come across this usage?
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Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 13:08:18 -0500
From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA
Subject: Re: Spanglish usage
rose nash said:
This morning at the local supermercado in Puerto Rico I noticed a
promotional poster advertising a contest awarding free products as prizes.
On the poster, in big red attention-getting letters, were the words "DAME UN
BREAK". I couldn't quite figure out the meaning in that context, and asked
the manager how he would say this another way (I didn't dare suggest 'pure'
Spanish). His answer was "DAME UNA OPORTUNIDAD" which I would freely
translate as "Give me a chance [to win]."
I thought that the English expression "Give me a break" referred literally
to a coffee break or other work interruption, and figuratively to a respite
from stress, problems, annoyances, etc. Apparently, from the poster
evidence, it did not enter Spanish with these meanings. Have any of you
Spanglophiles out there come across this usage?
this is not spanglophilia, but anglophilia, but i hope it's of
interest nonetheless. my first impression is not necessarily that
'break' is borrowed into spanish with only one of its possible
meanings (and then weirdly used in an idiom that usually gets another
sense), but that it's a bit of code-switching which expects the
audience to know enough about the word "break" in english to get the
pun. i agree that "gimme a break" usually has the meaning of "give
me relief from something ridiculous", but "break" does have the
'chance/opportunity' sense as well, as in "i'm just waiting for my
big break." so, if i were to see "give me a break" on an english
poster for a contest, i'd understand "break" with the opportunity
sense just like the grocer did.
lynne
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