Date:Sun, 23 May 1993 17:36:11 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject:"the former Yugoslavia"
Does anyone know where the term "the former Yugoslavia" comes from? By the
rules of the English language, it should be "former Yugoslavia".
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date:Sun, 23 May 1993 19:47:41 EDT
From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU
Subject:Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
"the former Yugoslavia" comes from the same place as
"the former Wilt Chamberlain" or "the former Miss Western"
or "the first Mrs. Gildersleeve" or "the one-time Dr. Jekyll"...
arnold
Date:Mon, 24 May 1993 13:48:13 -0800
From: Alan Kaye AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FULLERTON.EDU
Subject:Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
Answer is simple (I have not yet read the other messages): analogy to:
the former Soviet Union (semantic linkup with the Eastern Bloc...)
Alan Kaye
Ling. Dept.
CSU Fullerton
Fullerton, CA 92634"may24" 24 lines, 1085 characters
akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu
Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 19:11:13 -0600
From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
On 24 May 1993 13:48:13 -0800, Alan Kaye wrote:
Answer is simple (I have not yet read the other messages): analogy to:
the former Soviet Union (semantic linkup with the Eastern Bloc...)
That seems likely, yes. I was hoping there might be some more intelligent
reason, I guess.
Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu
Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 18:39:36 -0800
From: Alan Kaye AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FULLERTON.EDU
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
I have been thinking more re the above. Try:
"I would like to visit the former England."
Assume England is no more.
This does not work for me nor does:
"I would like to visit former England."
I have to circumlocute and say something like:
"I would like to visit the country previously (or formerly) known as England."
(There are other paraphrases, of course.)
Now, link this up with the free variation in:
Sudan
The Sudan,
etc.
I think I have got the making of a paper. Comments welcome!
Alan Kaye, Ling. Dept., CSU, Fullerton, CA 92634
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 07:15:59 -0700
From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: marbles
In my youth in Central Washington State, 50+ years ago, we played "migs,"
I think a generic name for "marbles." We had "shooters" --favorite
marbles famed for their accuracy, snazziness, or what-have-you. The
top-of-the-line shooter was an agate, mad out of just that. Then there
were "steelies," large ballbearings that could shatter glass.
What I want to know is whethter the term "migs" was widespread. I have
seen "taws" as a term for marbles, but only in a literary context. "Migs"
I've heard, but never seen.
This was set off by a crossword puzzle's request that I fill in some
squares with a word for marble.
Does anyone play marbles anymore? For us it was one of the first signs of
spring. As soon as enough snow left for us to draw a circle and a line in
the dirt, we were off. I don't recall how seasonal the game was.
Joe Monda
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 08:27:00 MST
From: BBOLING%UNMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
I wonder whether it may be the case that mutually exclusive alterna-
tives are marked as definite in English: THE one vs. THE other, THE former
vs. THE present, THE present vs. THE future, THE Yugoslavia that exists now
and has replaced THE Yugoslavia that formerly existed, etc. This is a
phenomenon quite separate from Sudan vs. The Sudan, Ukraine vs. The Ukraine,
etc.
Bruce D. Boling
University of New Mexico
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 09:19:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
When I assume that England is no more (I can feel Anglophiles shuddering!), I
have no difficulty at all with sentences like "I would like to visit the
former England." and I assume they refer to such longer paraphrases as "the
country which used to be England."
It is not at all clear to me, by the way, that The Sudan and Sudan are in
'free variation' (but I suppose nothing ever seems to be in free variation to
a sociolinguist). LINGUIST-L had a pretty full discussion of these + and -
article forms a few months ago.
Dennis Preston
22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 10:58:00 EDT
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
A quick (overly hasty) search of the Brown Corpus suggests that
'the former' + proper name was formerly most common with women's maiden
names, e.g.:
A17 0170 Mrs& Chase is the former {Miss Mary Mullenax}.
A17 0580 Scarsdale, N&Y&. Mrs& Kelsey is the former {Miss
A17 0590 Ann Rickenbaugh}.
A17 1340 Howard and his bride, the former Miss Judith Ellen Gay, who were
A18 1570 is the former Miss Stella Hayward. Mr& Wall is a student
A30 1260 Samuel Moody Haskins /3,. She is the former Judy Chapman,
If personal names are the basis for the extension to names of countries,
perhaps it is those country names that are closest to the prosodic patterns
of personal names that sound most natural right now, hence
the former Judy Chapman ... the former Soviet Union ... the former Yogoslavia
but ??the former England
However, if this hypothesis is correct, then once 'the former' with country
names is sufficiently established, the paradigm should be open to all country
names ...
-- Cathy Ball (Georgetown)
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:29:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: marbles
In my southern Indiana marble-shooting days (late 40's early 50's) 'taw' was
not a word for marbles in general. A 'taw' was a 'shooter,' more specifically
your favorite shooter. (Therefore, to 'lose your taw' was extended to mean a
loss of any ability or key to such ability.)
Dennis Preston
22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 10:55:00 CST
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: migs and other marbles
Joe,
I'll get back to you re regionality (and socio) of *migs*. *Taw*
by the way, is not only literary, although until I came to the
dictionary of american regional english i thought it was.
Did you have a *king* or *queen* in your marble collection?
beth simon
at the dictionary of american regional english
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:36:00 CST
From: Luanne von Schneidemesser LUANNEVONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: migs
Concerning mig: DARE has quotations going back to the
1890's for migs and miggles. There are also the less common
forms migget, miglet, migalo, and miggie or miggey. These are
usually small or inexpensive marbles, frequently made of clay. The
terms can also be used to mean a type of marble game. DARE's 85
informants responding with these terms are chiefly in the North
and West, especially in the New York-Mass area, and yes, 8
informants from the state of Washington.
A similar term, mib, also meb, mibbie, mibble, mibsie, and
mimb, same meanings, goes back to 1883. DARE shows the 60
informants using mib and variants to be chiefly in the North and
North Midland, especially in the Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan
area.
Luanne von Schneidemesser
Dictionary of American Regional English
6129 H.C. White, UW-Madison, 53706
(608)263-2748
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:12:20 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Homophone List
This was forwarded to me as being of possible interest for ADS-L. Since
it was originally posted to a usenet group, I'm forwarding it to ADS-L
without asking permission. (My philosophy is that anything on usenet
can be freely forwarded.) Natalie
From: antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dallas.sil.org
Newsgroups: comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.speech
Subject: homophones list
Date: 10 May 93 12:01:32 CST
Reply-To: evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org
Organization: Summer Institute of Linguistics, Dallas Center
I have a list of homophones in General Americal English in this format:
aisle, I'll, isle
ale, ail
all, awl
allowed, aloud
altar, alter
alter, altar
I would like to eventually put it on an archive somehwere, but first
would like to get some feedback on it: additions, typo corrections, etc.
The file is about 20K which seems a bit big to post on this list. If you
are interested and would give me feedback, send me an email message and
I will email the list to you.
Evan Antworth
evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org
From: antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dallas.sil.org
Newsgroups: comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.speech
Subject: updated homophones list
Date: 19 May 93 09:03:20 CST
Reply-To: evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org
Organization: Summer Institute of Linguistics, Dallas Center
An updated version of the list of homophones in General American English
mentioned last week in this newsgroup is now available by anonymous FTP from:
machine name: svr-ftp.eng.cam.ac.uk
directory: comp.speech/data
file name: homophones-1.01.txt
Thanks to Tony Robinson for making it available in this way.
If you can't get the list by FTP, I will email it to you upon request.
Evan.Antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:14:51 -0700
From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU
Subject: Re: migs and other marbles
On Wed, 26 May 1993, Beth Lee Simon wrote:
Joe,
I'll get back to you re regionality (and socio) of *migs*. *Taw*
by the way, is not only literary, although until I came to the
dictionary of american regional english i thought it was.
Did anyone ever hear of "mibs" for marbles?
Did you have a *king* or *queen* in your marble collection?
No, we had "shooters," and "aggies."
Joe MOnda
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:40:00 CST
From: Cynthia Bernstein BERN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DUCVAX.AUBURN.EDU
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
Would it be helpful to compare
She is Miss America / She is the former Miss America
to the Yugoslavia example?
Cindy Bernstein
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 21:29:07 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: Re: marbles
Just across the river from Dennis (in Louisville/area), same time period,
I remember boys talking about marbles, with a similar sense for taw. Also
aggie and shooter. We were out in the country until fifth grade, and I
don't remember any of us girls ever doing anything much with marbles.
Jump-rope rhymes a-plenty, but no marbles. Boyd Davis
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:03:11 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.YCC.YALE.EDU
Here's my second attempt to send this message to yall. A. Vinh
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Date: Wed, 26 May 93 15:33:32 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu
Subject: Tidewater dialect
To: American Dialects L-Serv ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CCUGA.EDU
I would look like to hear directly from anyone who has a strong interest in
the historical development of the Tidewater Virginia dialect and Coastal
Carolina dialects. I have a friend who is a retired scholar of Southern
literature who would like to collaborate on a book concerning this topic with a
Southern linguist...He has made notable contributions to the study of Southern
literature as well as to the study of the language of the South but needs
someone in the "know" concerning contemporary linguistics.
I am also personally interested in those particular dialects and would enjoy
getting recommendations for readings on the matter. I have found a book
published as early as 1722 which already discusses Virginia speech.
Alphonse Vinh
Yale University
Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalevm
Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 13:42:32 -0800
From: Alan Kaye AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FULLERTON.EDU
Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia"
No one around here can say (does say):
I would like to visit the former England,
...the former Scotland,
...the former Germany,
...the former Egypt,
yet we all accept:
...the former Sudan (not *the former The Sudan)
...the former Yugoslavia (etc.)
...the former United Arab Emirates
...Republic of South Africa
...the former East Germany
(forgot to type the former in RSA, please add)
or do we?
Can someone out there send me the transcript of all this which aired on
LINGUIST a few months back? (Was it on this exact point?)
Thanks.
Alan Kaye, CSU, Fullerton
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 09:07:00 EDT
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts)
In response to Alan Kaye's suggestion/request:
Can someone out there send me the transcript of all this which aired on
LINGUIST a few months back? (Was it on this exact point?)
Thanks.
Alan Kaye, CSU, Fullerton
Here are relevant excerpts from LINGUIST, which arose in the course of
a more general discussion of articles + names. Not very enlightening,
though.
-- Cathy Ball (Georgetown)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Linguist List: Vol-3-932. Wed 25 Nov 1992. Lines: 282
Subject: 3.932 Articles and Names
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 11:41:38 EST
From: John.M.Lawler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu
Subject: Articles and Names
Yet another bean for the pot...
Sunday morning I encountered the following phrase on NPR:
"...warships entering the territorial waters of the former
Yugoslavia..."
The crypto-perfective adjective "former" obviously seemed to
call for an article to form a definite NP. This is probably
akin to the phenomenon in "The Lowlands", "The Fenlands",
and "The Netherlands". More generally, it seems to apply to
any place name with more than one word (perceived to be) in
it. Hence "The Yucatan (Peninsula)", "The Yukon (Territory)",
etc.
Is there a term referring to the gradual withering of such
head nouns? They seem to decay into traces, leaving behind
only the article that once introduced the full phrase.
How about Cheshire nouns?
-John Lawler
University of Michigan
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linguist List: Vol-3-947. Wed 02 Dec 1992. Lines: 172
Subject: 3.947 Articles
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 10:36:51 -0500 (EST)
From: cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan)
Subject: the former Yugoslavia
There's a Thurber cartoon, undoubtedly once published in the New Yorker ,
which shows a naked woman kneeling atop a bookcase. At the foot of the
bookcase is a small group of people; one of them (a man) is saying,
"That's my first wife up there, and this is the present Mrs. Harris."
[Emphasis in original.]
I would have no difficulty in labeling the woman atop the bookcase as
"the former Mrs. Harris". Likewise, we can have "the former Gold Coast"
and "the former Yugoslavia". Specifically, Bosnia is not part of Yugoslavia,
but it is part of the former Yugoslavia.
--
John Cowan cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snark.thyrsus.com ...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Linguist List: Vol-3-960. Fri 04 Dec 1992. Lines: 176
Subject: 3.960 Last Posting: Handel, Former
Date: 02 Dec 1992 15:51:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: no chive SDFNCR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Re: 3.947 Articles
1. My point about "Messiah" is that even without "Handel's" before it
musicians, at least Handel specialists, don't use the article with it.
We're singing "Messiah" next year...
2. With regard to locutions like "The former Yugoslavia," virtually
*any* proper noun can be used with an article if it is modified -- e.g.,
"That's not the Mary I used to know."
Susan Fischer
From: Ivan A Derzhanski iad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cogsci.edinburgh.ac.uk
5)
Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 14:24:53 GMT
Subject: 3.947 the former Yugoslavia
Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 10:36:51 -0500 (EST)
From: cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan)
"That's my first wife up there, and this is the present Mrs. Harris."
I would have no difficulty in labeling the woman atop the bookcase as
"the former Mrs. Harris".
It seems to me that the expression "the former Mrs Harris" is ambiguous.
It may refer to an entity existing in the present world (which was
Mrs Harris once but isn't any more) or an entity existing in a world
associated with a time before now (which is Mrs Harris in that world).
"The present Mrs Harris is a better housewife than the former Mrs Harris."
I can get two readings for this, involving the housekeeping skills of
the former Mrs Harris as demonstrated while she was married to Mr Harris
or as demonstrated now (and they may have gone up or down after the divorce).
Likewise, we can have "the former Gold Coast" and "the former Yugoslavia".
By the first reading, "the former Yugoslavia" means the part of the
surface of the planet that used to be Yugoslavia once. Clearly it
can't have such a thing as territorial waters, because it is not a state.
By the second reading, "the former Yugoslavia" is a state, and "the
territorial waters of the former Yugoslavia" means the same thing as
"the former territorial waters of Yugoslavia". The waters are there,
only it is not clear why it should matter if someone enters them now.
I generally eschew such expressions as "the ex-USSR" or "the former
Yugoslavia". No one says "the ex-Byzantium" or "the former Assyria",
which would make just as much (or just as little) sense.
`Haud yer wheesht! Come oot o the man an gie him peace.' (The Glasgow Gospel)
Ivan A Derzhanski (iad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]chaos.cs.brandeis.edu)
* Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK
* Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 07:04:44 CDT
From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU
Can you please reveal your friend's name and could you especially provide
more information about the 1722 book on Virginia speech? I am especially
interested in the latter, as it overlaps with part of my research on creole
genesis. I hope you will help in being more informative.
Salikoko Mufwene
University of Chicago
Dept. of Linguistics
1010 East 59th St.
Chicago, IL 60637
S-MUFWENE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 13:15:06 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
The earliest references to Virginia speech can be found in two books by
Reverend Hugh Jones. He wrote the first grammar book in America entitled, _An
Accidence to the English Tongue_(1724). A companion book is his important
history of colonial Virginia, _The Present State of Virginia_(1724).
I have found some names of scholars who might be possible collaborators for
this prospective book on the origins of Tidewater Southern English. As his
assistant I left it as my prerogative to be discrete until I could screen
candidates. Thank you for your interest.
Alphonse Vinh (Yale University)
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 15:22:42 EDT
From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts)
As I was browsing through an issue of Atlanta magazine this morning in my
Dr.'s office, I found an article about a Russian language newspaper being
published in Atlanta by Igor Kopmar, who also delivers Domino's Pizza.
One of the main features of the paper is a section entitled
News from the Former
re. of course the USSR. I think one reason people say "the former USSR"
and not "the former Babylon", etc. is that they don't want to be corrected by
someone reminding them that the USSR no longer exists. Indeed, it would seem
to be incorrect to refer to something currently happening in Russia, the
Ukraine, Georgia, and so on as going on in the USSR (though this is fine for
historical reference), and it is much easier to say "the former USSR" than
to enumerate the current republics.
By the way, I have no problem with "the former England", given the proper
context. Imagine that it not only no longer exists, but has been split up
into a myriad of independent states (shires?). Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga
Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 17:16:00 EDT
From: J J Markin MARKIN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRYCAS.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU
Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts)
By the way, I have no problem with "the former England", given the proper
contest. Imagine that it not only no longer exists, but has been split up
Nor have I problems with "the former England" -- but *would* have a problem
with an earlier example sombody mentioned, "the former Byzantium", at least
out of context -- Byzantium still exists, it just has a new name. Now, if
you wanted to say "Constantinopolis, the former Byzantium", sounds fine to
me. (Just my tuppence.)
J Markin [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu
Date: Sun, 30 May 1993 17:03:16 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: The Former...
The debate over 'the former Yugoslavia,' 'the former England,' etc. assumes
you guys are dealing with a problem that is only grammatical. It's
encyclopedic/referential as much as grammatical. Why don't we see "the
former East Bloc" very often? The now-real East Bloc has common attributes
that we are aware of -- industrial output, standard of living, pollution,
struggles with capitalistic economy -- so we aren't as likely to use 'former'
as we are when what held the "former" together was some sort of political
charter that set up an identifiable political entity. And when we say
"the former ..." we must use the cataphoric _the_ (see Halliday, Cohesion
in English) for grammatical reasons. 'The Sudan' is a matter of a name with
historical precedents in its form. The Levant. El Panama. La Havana.
DMLance, U of MO
Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 11:34:36 +0501
From: Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU
Subject: Re: your mail
In response the A. Vinh's inquiry about Southern linguists interested in
the speech of Tidewater Va and the Carolina Coast: Walt Wolfram, though
not a "Southern" linguist, is now at NC State U in Raleigh (Dept. of
English) and is currently engaged in research on the dialect of the NC
Outer Banks. You might also be interested in looking at my decades-old
AMERICAN SPEECH paper "The Speech of Ocracoke, NC" (early '60s; I don't have
the reference handy). As far as I know, nothing's been done on the Outer
Banks dialect since then until Wolfram's present research. -- Bob Howren
Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 13:00:42 PDT
From: Tom Veatch veatch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREA.STANFORD.EDU
Subject: outer banks
Labov Yaeger and Steiner 1972 includes work on the vowels of four
speakers from Arapahoe on the Outer Banks. Figures 4-14a-d. All the
gliding vowels glide up and front! That is BOTH iy and uw (as in
beet, boot) BOTH ay and aw (bite, bout), BOTH ey and ow (bait, boat)!
see Figures 4-15, 4-16. The reference is:
Labov, William; Yaeger, Malcah; Steiner, Richard. 1972. A
Quantitative Study of Sound Change in Progress. NSF GS-3287.
Philadelphia: U.S. Regional Survey, Linguistics Laboratory,
University of Pennsylvania.
From a trip I once took to Okracoke, it seemed like the local vowels
are of the next century. Big chain shifts.
Tom Veatch
Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 18:47:00 EDT
From: Axioms can be viewed as a form of exact theology
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