Date:Sun, 23 May 1993 17:36:11 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject:"the former Yugoslavia" Does anyone know where the term "the former Yugoslavia" comes from? By the rules of the English language, it should be "former Yugoslavia". Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date:Sun, 23 May 1993 19:47:41 EDT From: Arnold Zwicky Subject:Re: "the former Yugoslavia" "the former Yugoslavia" comes from the same place as "the former Wilt Chamberlain" or "the former Miss Western" or "the first Mrs. Gildersleeve" or "the one-time Dr. Jekyll"... arnold Date:Mon, 24 May 1993 13:48:13 -0800 From: Alan Kaye Subject:Re: "the former Yugoslavia" Answer is simple (I have not yet read the other messages): analogy to: the former Soviet Union (semantic linkup with the Eastern Bloc...) Alan Kaye Ling. Dept. CSU< Fullerton Fullerton, CA 92634"may24" 24 lines, 1085 characters akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 19:11:13 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" On 24 May 1993 13:48:13 -0800, Alan Kaye wrote: >Answer is simple (I have not yet read the other messages): analogy to: >the former Soviet Union (semantic linkup with the Eastern Bloc...) That seems likely, yes. I was hoping there might be some more intelligent reason, I guess. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Tue, 25 May 1993 18:39:36 -0800 From: Alan Kaye Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" I have been thinking more re the above. Try: "I would like to visit the former England." Assume England is no more. This does not work for me nor does: "I would like to visit former England." I have to circumlocute and say something like: "I would like to visit the country previously (or formerly) known as England." (There are other paraphrases, of course.) Now, link this up with the free variation in: Sudan The Sudan, etc. I think I have got the making of a paper. Comments welcome! Alan Kaye, Ling. Dept., CSU, Fullerton, CA 92634 Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 07:15:59 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: marbles In my youth in Central Washington State, 50+ years ago, we played "migs," I think a generic name for "marbles." We had "shooters" --favorite marbles famed for their accuracy, snazziness, or what-have-you. The top-of-the-line shooter was an agate, mad out of just that. Then there were "steelies," large ballbearings that could shatter glass. What I want to know is whethter the term "migs" was widespread. I have seen "taws" as a term for marbles, but only in a literary context. "Migs" I've heard, but never seen. This was set off by a crossword puzzle's request that I fill in some squares with a word for marble. Does anyone play marbles anymore? For us it was one of the first signs of spring. As soon as enough snow left for us to draw a circle and a line in the dirt, we were off. I don't recall how seasonal the game was. Joe Monda Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 08:27:00 MST From: BBOLING%UNMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" I wonder whether it may be the case that mutually exclusive alterna- tives are marked as definite in English: THE one vs. THE other, THE former vs. THE present, THE present vs. THE future, THE Yugoslavia that exists now and has replaced THE Yugoslavia that formerly existed, etc. This is a phenomenon quite separate from Sudan vs. The Sudan, Ukraine vs. The Ukraine, etc. Bruce D. Boling University of New Mexico Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 09:19:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu> Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" When I assume that England is no more (I can feel Anglophiles shuddering!), I have no difficulty at all with sentences like "I would like to visit the former England." and I assume they refer to such longer paraphrases as "the country which used to be England." It is not at all clear to me, by the way, that The Sudan and Sudan are in 'free variation' (but I suppose nothing ever seems to be in free variation to a sociolinguist). LINGUIST-L had a pretty full discussion of these + and - article forms a few months ago. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 10:58:00 EDT From: Cathy Ball Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" A quick (overly hasty) search of the Brown Corpus suggests that 'the former' + proper name was formerly most common with women's maiden names, e.g.: A17 0170 Mrs& Chase is the former {Miss Mary Mullenax}. A17 0580 Scarsdale, N&Y&. Mrs& Kelsey is the former {Miss A17 0590 Ann Rickenbaugh}. A17 1340 Howard and his bride, the former Miss Judith Ellen Gay, who were A18 1570 is the former Miss Stella Hayward. Mr& Wall is a student A30 1260 Samuel Moody Haskins /3,. She is the former Judy Chapman, If personal names are the basis for the extension to names of countries, perhaps it is those country names that are closest to the prosodic patterns of personal names that sound most natural right now, hence the former Judy Chapman ... the former Soviet Union ... the former Yogoslavia but ??the former England However, if this hypothesis is correct, then once 'the former' with country names is sufficiently established, the paradigm should be open to all country names ... -- Cathy Ball (Georgetown) Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:29:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu> Subject: marbles In my southern Indiana marble-shooting days (late 40's early 50's) 'taw' was not a word for marbles in general. A 'taw' was a 'shooter,' more specifically your favorite shooter. (Therefore, to 'lose your taw' was extended to mean a loss of any ability or key to such ability.) Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 10:55:00 CST From: Beth Lee Simon Subject: migs and other marbles Joe, I'll get back to you re regionality (and socio) of *migs*. *Taw* by the way, is not only literary, although until I came to the dictionary of american regional english i thought it was. Did you have a *king* or *queen* in your marble collection? beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 12:36:00 CST From: Luanne von Schneidemesser Subject: migs Concerning mig: DARE has quotations going back to the 1890's for migs and miggles. There are also the less common forms migget, miglet, migalo, and miggie or miggey. These are usually small or inexpensive marbles, frequently made of clay. The terms can also be used to mean a type of marble game. DARE's 85 informants responding with these terms are chiefly in the North and West, especially in the New York-Mass area, and yes, 8 informants from the state of Washington. A similar term, mib, also meb, mibbie, mibble, mibsie, and mimb, same meanings, goes back to 1883. DARE shows the 60 informants using mib and variants to be chiefly in the North and North Midland, especially in the Wisconsin, Illinois, Michigan area. Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White, UW-Madison, 53706 (608)263-2748 Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:12:20 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Homophone List This was forwarded to me as being of possible interest for ADS-L. Since it was originally posted to a usenet group, I'm forwarding it to ADS-L without asking permission. (My philosophy is that anything on usenet can be freely forwarded.) Natalie > From: antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dallas.sil.org > Newsgroups: comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.speech > Subject: homophones list > Date: 10 May 93 12:01:32 CST > Reply-To: evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org > Organization: Summer Institute of Linguistics, Dallas Center > > I have a list of homophones in General Americal English in this format: > > aisle, I'll, isle > ale, ail > all, awl > allowed, aloud > altar, alter > alter, altar > > I would like to eventually put it on an archive somehwere, but first > would like to get some feedback on it: additions, typo corrections, etc. > The file is about 20K which seems a bit big to post on this list. If you > are interested and would give me feedback, send me an email message and > I will email the list to you. > > Evan Antworth > evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org > > From: antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dallas.sil.org > Newsgroups: comp.ai.nat-lang,comp.speech > Subject: updated homophones list > Date: 19 May 93 09:03:20 CST > Reply-To: evan.antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org > Organization: Summer Institute of Linguistics, Dallas Center > > An updated version of the list of homophones in General American English > mentioned last week in this newsgroup is now available by anonymous FTP from: > > machine name: svr-ftp.eng.cam.ac.uk > directory: comp.speech/data > file name: homophones-1.01.txt > > Thanks to Tony Robinson for making it available in this way. > > If you can't get the list by FTP, I will email it to you upon request. > > Evan.Antworth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sil.org > Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:14:51 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: Re: migs and other marbles On Wed, 26 May 1993, Beth Lee Simon wrote: > Joe, > I'll get back to you re regionality (and socio) of *migs*. *Taw* > by the way, is not only literary, although until I came to the > dictionary of american regional english i thought it was. Did anyone ever hear of "mibs" for marbles? > > Did you have a *king* or *queen* in your marble collection? No, we had "shooters," and "aggies." Joe MOnda Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 14:40:00 CST From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" Would it be helpful to compare She is Miss America / She is the former Miss America to the Yugoslavia example? Cindy Bernstein Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 21:29:07 EST From: Boyd Davis Subject: Re: marbles Just across the river from Dennis (in Louisville/area), same time period, I remember boys talking about marbles, with a similar sense for taw. Also aggie and shooter. We were out in the country until fifth grade, and I don't remember any of us girls ever doing anything much with marbles. Jump-rope rhymes a-plenty, but no marbles. Boyd Davis Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 16:03:11 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh Here's my second attempt to send this message to yall. A. Vinh ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu unable to deliver following mail to recipient(s): 550 Host 'UGA.CCUGA.EDU' Unknown ** Text of Mail follows ** Received: from YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU by YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0685; Wed, 26 May 93 15:58:48 EDT Received: from YALEVM (NJE origin VINH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM) by YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU (LMail V1.1d/1.7f) with BSMTP id 7358; Wed, 26 May 1993 15:39:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 26 May 93 15:33:32 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh Subject: Tidewater dialect To: American Dialects L-Serv I would look like to hear directly from anyone who has a strong interest in the historical development of the Tidewater Virginia dialect and Coastal Carolina dialects. I have a friend who is a retired scholar of Southern literature who would like to collaborate on a book concerning this topic with a Southern linguist...He has made notable contributions to the study of Southern literature as well as to the study of the language of the South but needs someone in the "know" concerning contemporary linguistics. I am also personally interested in those particular dialects and would enjoy getting recommendations for readings on the matter. I have found a book published as early as 1722 which already discusses Virginia speech. Alphonse Vinh Yale University Vinh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalevm Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 13:42:32 -0800 From: Alan Kaye Subject: Re: "the former Yugoslavia" No one around here can say (does say): I would like to visit the former England, ...the former Scotland, ...the former Germany, ...the former Egypt, yet we all accept: ...the former Sudan (not *the former The Sudan) ...the former Yugoslavia (etc.) ...the former United Arab Emirates ...Republic of South Africa ...the former East Germany (forgot to type the former in RSA, please add) or do we? Can someone out there send me the transcript of all this which aired on LINGUIST a few months back? (Was it on this exact point?) Thanks. Alan Kaye, CSU, Fullerton Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 09:07:00 EDT From: Cathy Ball Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts) In response to Alan Kaye's suggestion/request: >> Can someone out there send me the transcript of all this which aired on >> LINGUIST a few months back? (Was it on this exact point?) >> Thanks. >> Alan Kaye, CSU, Fullerton Here are relevant excerpts from LINGUIST, which arose in the course of a more general discussion of articles + names. Not very enlightening, though. -- Cathy Ball (Georgetown) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Linguist List: Vol-3-932. Wed 25 Nov 1992. Lines: 282 Subject: 3.932 Articles and Names Date: Tue, 24 Nov 92 11:41:38 EST From: John.M.Lawler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu Subject: Articles and Names Yet another bean for the pot... Sunday morning I encountered the following phrase on NPR: "...warships entering the territorial waters of the former Yugoslavia..." The crypto-perfective adjective "former" obviously seemed to call for an article to form a definite NP. This is probably akin to the phenomenon in "The Lowlands", "The Fenlands", and "The Netherlands". More generally, it seems to apply to any place name with more than one word (perceived to be) in it. Hence "The Yucatan (Peninsula)", "The Yukon (Territory)", etc. Is there a term referring to the gradual withering of such head nouns? They seem to decay into traces, leaving behind only the article that once introduced the full phrase. How about Cheshire nouns? -John Lawler University of Michigan -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Linguist List: Vol-3-947. Wed 02 Dec 1992. Lines: 172 Subject: 3.947 Articles Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 10:36:51 -0500 (EST) From: cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan) Subject: the former Yugoslavia There's a Thurber cartoon, undoubtedly once published in the >New Yorker<, which shows a naked woman kneeling atop a bookcase. At the foot of the bookcase is a small group of people; one of them (a man) is saying, "That's my first wife up there, and this is the >present< Mrs. Harris." [Emphasis in original.] I would have no difficulty in labeling the woman atop the bookcase as "the former Mrs. Harris". Likewise, we can have "the former Gold Coast" and "the former Yugoslavia". Specifically, Bosnia is not part of Yugoslavia, but it is part of the former Yugoslavia. -- John Cowan cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snark.thyrsus.com ...!uunet!cbmvax!snark!cowan e'osai ko sarji la lojban. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Linguist List: Vol-3-960. Fri 04 Dec 1992. Lines: 176 Subject: 3.960 Last Posting: Handel, Former Date: 02 Dec 1992 15:51:34 -0400 (EDT) From: no chive Subject: Re: 3.947 Articles 1. My point about "Messiah" is that even without "Handel's" before it musicians, at least Handel specialists, don't use the article with it. We're singing "Messiah" next year... 2. With regard to locutions like "The former Yugoslavia," virtually *any* proper noun can be used with an article if it is modified -- e.g., "That's not the Mary I used to know." Susan Fischer From: Ivan A Derzhanski 5) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 92 14:24:53 GMT Subject: 3.947 the former Yugoslavia > Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1992 10:36:51 -0500 (EST) > From: cowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.UU.NET (John Cowan) > > "That's my first wife up there, and this is the >present< Mrs. Harris." > > I would have no difficulty in labeling the woman atop the bookcase as > "the former Mrs. Harris". It seems to me that the expression "the former Mrs Harris" is ambiguous. It may refer to an entity existing in the present world (which was Mrs Harris once but isn't any more) or an entity existing in a world associated with a time before now (which is Mrs Harris in that world). "The present Mrs Harris is a better housewife than the former Mrs Harris." I can get two readings for this, involving the housekeeping skills of the former Mrs Harris as demonstrated while she was married to Mr Harris or as demonstrated now (and they may have gone up or down after the divorce). > Likewise, we can have "the former Gold Coast" and "the former Yugoslavia". By the first reading, "the former Yugoslavia" means the part of the surface of the planet that used to be Yugoslavia once. Clearly it can't have such a thing as territorial waters, because it is not a state. By the second reading, "the former Yugoslavia" is a state, and "the territorial waters of the former Yugoslavia" means the same thing as "the former territorial waters of Yugoslavia". The waters are there, only it is not clear why it should matter if someone enters them now. I generally eschew such expressions as "the ex-USSR" or "the former Yugoslavia". No one says "the ex-Byzantium" or "the former Assyria", which would make just as much (or just as little) sense. `Haud yer wheesht! Come oot o the man an gie him peace.' (The Glasgow Gospel) Ivan A Derzhanski (iad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cogsci.ed.ac.uk; iad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]chaos.cs.brandeis.edu) * Centre for Cognitive Science, 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, UK * Cowan House, Pollock Halls, 18 Holyrood Park Road, Edinburgh EH16 5BD, UK Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 07:04:44 CDT From: Salikoko Mufwene Can you please reveal your friend's name and could you especially provide more information about the 1722 book on Virginia speech? I am especially interested in the latter, as it overlaps with part of my research on creole genesis. I hope you will help in being more informative. Salikoko Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th St. Chicago, IL 60637 S-MUFWENE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 13:15:06 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh The earliest references to Virginia speech can be found in two books by Reverend Hugh Jones. He wrote the first grammar book in America entitled, _An Accidence to the English Tongue_(1724). A companion book is his important history of colonial Virginia, _The Present State of Virginia_(1724). I have found some names of scholars who might be possible collaborators for this prospective book on the origins of Tidewater Southern English. As his assistant I left it as my prerogative to be discrete until I could screen candidates. Thank you for your interest. Alphonse Vinh (Yale University) Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 15:22:42 EDT From: Ellen Johnson Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts) As I was browsing through an issue of Atlanta magazine this morning in my Dr.'s office, I found an article about a Russian language newspaper being published in Atlanta by Igor Kopmar, who also delivers Domino's Pizza. One of the main features of the paper is a section entitled News from the Former re. of course the USSR. I think one reason people say "the former USSR" and not "the former Babylon", etc. is that they don't want to be corrected by someone reminding them that the USSR no longer exists. Indeed, it would seem to be incorrect to refer to something currently happening in Russia, the Ukraine, Georgia, and so on as going on in the USSR (though this is fine for historical reference), and it is much easier to say "the former USSR" than to enumerate the current republics. By the way, I have no problem with "the former England", given the proper context. Imagine that it not only no longer exists, but has been split up into a myriad of independent states (shires?). Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 17:16:00 EDT From: J J Markin Subject: Re: the former Yugoslavia (LINGUIST excerpts) > By the way, I have no problem with "the former England", given the proper >contest. Imagine that it not only no longer exists, but has been split up Nor have I problems with "the former England" -- but *would* have a problem with an earlier example sombody mentioned, "the former Byzantium", at least out of context -- Byzantium still exists, it just has a new name. Now, if you wanted to say "Constantinopolis, the former Byzantium", sounds fine to me. (Just my tuppence.) J Markin [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu Date: Sun, 30 May 1993 17:03:16 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: The Former... The debate over 'the former Yugoslavia,' 'the former England,' etc. assumes you guys are dealing with a problem that is only grammatical. It's encyclopedic/referential as much as grammatical. Why don't we see "the former East Bloc" very often? The now-real East Bloc has common attributes that we are aware of -- industrial output, standard of living, pollution, struggles with capitalistic economy -- so we aren't as likely to use 'former' as we are when what held the "former" together was some sort of political charter that set up an identifiable political entity. And when we say "the former ..." we must use the cataphoric _the_ (see Halliday, Cohesion in English) for grammatical reasons. 'The Sudan' is a matter of a name with historical precedents in its form. The Levant. El Panama. La Havana. DMLance, U of MO Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 11:34:36 +0501 From: Robert Howren Subject: Re: your mail In response the A. Vinh's inquiry about Southern linguists interested in the speech of Tidewater Va and the Carolina Coast: Walt Wolfram, though not a "Southern" linguist, is now at NC State U in Raleigh (Dept. of English) and is currently engaged in research on the dialect of the NC Outer Banks. You might also be interested in looking at my decades-old AMERICAN SPEECH paper "The Speech of Ocracoke, NC" (early '60s; I don't have the reference handy). As far as I know, nothing's been done on the Outer Banks dialect since then until Wolfram's present research. -- Bob Howren Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 13:00:42 PDT From: Tom Veatch Subject: outer banks Labov Yaeger and Steiner 1972 includes work on the vowels of four speakers from Arapahoe on the Outer Banks. Figures 4-14a-d. All the gliding vowels glide up and front! That is BOTH iy and uw (as in beet, boot) BOTH ay and aw (bite, bout), BOTH ey and ow (bait, boat)! see Figures 4-15, 4-16. The reference is: Labov, William; Yaeger, Malcah; Steiner, Richard. 1972. A Quantitative Study of Sound Change in Progress. NSF GS-3287. Philadelphia: U.S. Regional Survey, Linguistics Laboratory, University of Pennsylvania. >From a trip I once took to Okracoke, it seemed like the local vowels are of the next century. Big chain shifts. Tom Veatch Date: Mon, 31 May 1993 18:47:00 EDT From: Axioms can be viewed as a form of exact theology Subject: ** Announcing a new MultiMedia list .. All welcome ** Hello everybody .. I would like to personally invite you to subscribe to the brand new MultiMedia list that is now running from Jersey City, New Jersey. The list's discussions will cover a wide variety of hot multimedia topics, including animation, digitized sound, interactive video, and virtual reality. There will also be plenty of uuencoded postings of the latest shareware and freeware multimedia packages, including demos, that will keep the subscribers up to date with the latest technological developments for the home computer. This list will be running neck to neck with a multimedia BBS that is currently being developed. The telephone number of this BBS is: (201) 653-8966. You can dial in with speeds up to 14,400 bauds. 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