Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:15:41 -0600
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: 3" short
I would say the tablecloth is 3 inches short. I'd be more
likely to say this hem is 3 inches short, not having much
use for tablecloths. But I wouldn't say he is 3 inches
short (meaning too short for some purpose). (The giggle-
allusion is inadvertant, but I'm letting it stand.) I don't
think 3 inches short works for me with any animate subject. I
want to add some goal. The dog is 3 inches short of
AKC standards.
None of the other options works for me except the universal
one.
10 minutes late or early both work.
1st dialect = sw Pennsylvania, 1950-60's.
adult dialect adds from ND and IN. I don't know which one I
speak. I can't speak either and be heard as a native, tho if
I went home for long enough, I might.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:31:55 -0400
From: George Graham GGRAHAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PSTCC.CC.TN.US
Subject: song
===============================================================
A question arose the other day.
Some of my nursing students told me about a tape which helped them learn
the parts of the body by using music to stimulate memory.
So I bought one for myself (actually I used the excuse that my 7th grader
needed it). As I was listening to one of the songs the phrase was used ...
heading down south ... the phrase was in relation to the food moving down into
the stomach.
But I wasn't sure of the origin ... was it from the verticle position of a map
on the
wall ... and south being DOWN ????
Anyone have an idea ???
George G
ggraham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pstcc.cc.tn.us
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:37:11 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: song
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
The metaphor is fairly common: profits typically head south in a recession.
Analogously, dead cowboys head west [toward the setting sun].
David Bergdahl
Ohio University/Athens
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:58:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: an address
does anyone have the list address for the Functional Linguistics list?
if so, please contact me. Thanks
beth simon
blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:31:00 CDT
From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU
Subject: Re: song
Has anyone else already mentioned that "gone south" means, or can mean,
"died"?
Beth Simon
DARE
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1993 23:57:50 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: song
Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?
We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't
say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?
These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices
contribute to these uses, but map directions don't explain "down east".
DMLance
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:54:57 -0230
From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive" philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA
Subject: Down North
"Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET said,
Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?
We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't
say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?
These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices
contribute to these uses, but map directions don't explain "down east".
DMLance
Here in Newfoundland one hears "down north" with pretty high
frequency, along with the folk explanation that old maps used to be
printed "upside-down." One also hears phrases like "up the Shore"
meaning south along what is called the Southern Shore (which runs
north-south, near St John's). "Up" often means "south", but only
rarely do you hear the collocation "up south."
"Down" a bay usually means towards the "bottom" (= the most
inland part) no matter what direction that takes you on the map.
The direction or movement from Newfoundland to Canada is
usually referred to as "up to Canada", or "up to the mainland" - this
is more or less west on the map. Although the phrase "down east" is often
used by Mainers and Maritime Canadians ( = PEI, NB and NS), I don't think
it is used by Newfoundlanders to refer to their home territory.
In Shakespeare's sonnet, I forget which number, he uses
"lowlands" or "nether regions" for the pubic area, but I can't remember
whether he uses a "south" metaphor. It seems to me he might have.
Does anyone have the sonnets close at hand?
-Philip Hiscock
philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:00:00 CST
From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
'South' equates with 'down' in a number of ways. I agree with Don
Lance that these are set expressions. I do, though, find
'out east' very awkward; I prefer 'back East.'
Remember my rapidly receding high school days, when a
female student had a tad of slip showing, we would always
say to her 'It's snowing down South.'
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:27:01 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: song
We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'.
Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: song
Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500
From: GURT%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: song
I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
Joan C. Cook
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:24:47 -0800
From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM
Subject: song
I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
I disagree. In keeping with the subject of this message, I quote part of an
folk song:
A north country maid
Down to London had strayed,
Although with her nature
It did not agree.
I will add though, in Cornwall in the southwest, they talk about going
"up to England". This would be generally a northeast direction.
-- Roger
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:41:12 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: song
In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600,
Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU writes:
Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
They also go up to university and if they aren't good get sent down.
Which means, I suppose, they can go both up and down to London from
Cambridge. Rather like the old days when I walked 5 miles to school
in the snow uphill both ways.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:45:00 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: song
In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500, GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet writes:
I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.
Joan C. Cook
Department of Linguistics
Georgetown University
gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu
And here in the US, depending on local custom, we go uptown or downtown
to get to the main part of town. I grew up in NYC--in Queens--and
when we went to Manhattan we always said we were going "To the city."
To go uptown or to go downtown also means to do something with energy,
to solo (musically or otherwise). And of course, crosstown busses run
all night. Doo dah. Doo dah.
Dennis
--
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:33:22 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: song
From: NAME: David Bergdahl
FUNC: English
TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX
Don,
Down east makes sense as a direction: on the maine coast a storm that comes from
the Atlantic provinces of Canada comes down [out of the] east.
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:26:42 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Bounced Mail
When including a previous posting, be sure to edit out all references
to ADS-L in the headers.
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:48:16 -0500
From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: ADS-L: error report from LEVY.BARD.EDU
To: Natalie Maynor MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid
6914 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error
notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field
pointing to the list has been found in mail body.
---------------------- Message in error (40 lines) -------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 21:47:41 EST
From: kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]levy.bard.edu (Robert Kelly)
Subject: Re: song
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Re: song
Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.
say they're going down to Boston, which is north.
Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
and people thrown out of Cambridge, whether they are headed N, E, S or W
are "sent down."
rk
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:53:13 CST
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Long-Awaited Book
The long-awaited book on language variation teaching and research is "in the
mail." Glowka and I got preview copies of the paperback last week.
LANGUAGE VARIATION IN NORTH AMERICAN ENGLISH: RESEARCH AND TEACHING, eds.
A. Wayne Glowka & Donald M. Lance. Published by MLA. Looks really good.
They've highlighted this volume in their latest publications announcement --
a two-page spread, twice as much space as they gave any other publication.
I understand they're gonna display it prominently at the book exhibit in
Toronto. And we'll have a copy at the BYOB session at ADS.
Thirty-nine original articles -- including Wolfram, Cassidy, Harold Allen,
and some luminaries too. DMLance
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:56:42 +0500
From: Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU
Subject: down north
Donald M. Lance wrote:
Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?
Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"? We use 'out' with
'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't say "out north" or
"out south" or "down west", would we? These seem to me to be set
expressions, and certainly mapping practices contribute to these uses, but
map directions don't explain "down east".
In at least the western part of the McKenzie District of the Northwest
Territories of Canada, the regular association of "down" with north is due
to the presence of the McKenzie River, which flows for a thousand miles
north from Great Slave Lake to the Arctic coast. In the NWT, one goes
"down to Inuvik," which is at the McKenzie delta. Incidentally, from the
Territories, one goes "outside" to the provinces, or "out to Edmonton."
--Bob Howren Dept of Linguistics UNC-Chapel Hill
r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:58:25 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: up south
"up south" has been in use here, in the Charlotte area, for at least the
last 25 years, primarily by the African-American community, with a
restricted and ironic meaning. The 'last 25 years' refers only to how
long I've been hearing this term. My colleague Mary Harper says that it
is an ironic, tongue-in-cheek way of saying that African-Americans find
the same problems above the Mason-Dixon line as below. Exchanges like
"Where's Anne been lately?" "She's been up south in Philadelphia/New
York/etc" mean that Anne went to Philadelphia/etc for more than a casual
visit to relatives or friends, probably related to employment, and found
conditions no different. Harper adds that the phrase has probably been
in use, at least locally, since WWII. African-American students at our
university who have grown up in the area often tease A-A students coming
here from New Jersey, New York, DC area, etc., by saying that they come
from 'up south' -- which is a multiple message. Part of the message is
"Excuse me, please, you may drop your sophisticated manner and your
expectations that I am a rustic, because you actually live up south -
that is, you have grown up under the same social realities that operate
on me, though you may not realize it - and this country mouse may know
a bit more about the real world than you do."
Harper reports that she has never heard *"down north" in any
sense. She sends a question for the group about "outin'":
People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years
ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In
the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its
occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.
Is this usage regionally restricted?
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:45:45 CST
From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU
Subject: Re: up south
She sends a question for the group about "outin'":
People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years
ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In
the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its
occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.
Is this usage regionally restricted?
Regionally restricted or not, outing may be driven out by the new
meaning of outing.
--
Dennis
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 07:54:58 +0500
From: Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU
Subject: outin'
On Boyd Davis's query about "outin'":
I remember "outin" in this meaning from my childhood in northwest
Georgia. (I'm 64.)
==Bob Howren Dept. of Linguistics UNC-Chapel Hill r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu==
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:03:23 +22305606
From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes." ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ABELLO.SECI.UCHILE.CL
Subject: uptown/barrios altos
In Atlanta there was traditionally an Uptown and a Downtown, the latter being
Five Points and the former near where Macy's is today. This may go back to a
time when there was actually some fairly empty space separating the two.
I've only heard it from natives of 50+ years old. It doesn't seem to have much
meaning currently. For one thing, what may have once been two separate
commercial districts runs together now, and for another, there aren't as many
natives left working downtown who might make this distinction.
I would only use 'uptown' in this restricted sense, I think. Here in Santiago,
I always come downtown to work on my e-mail at the computer center of the
university, never uptown.
The 'suburb' (very urban to me) where I live is the beginning of the 'barrios
altos', or, roughly, 'high neighborhoods'. This includes Providencia and newer
suburbs toward the east. The only catch is that there is a negligible, if any,
difference in altitude, as far as I can tell. It IS in the direction toward
the Cordillera of the Andes, but it is not hilly at all, except for the
isolated bumps or 'cerros' that occur at various locations around and in the
city. It might be a metaphor arising in the fact that these neighborhoods are
inhabited mostly by the rich. What may have been a metaphor is taken quite
literally, however. Many people have explained to me that there is less
pollution, that the air is clearer in these barrios altos (presumably because
of their height), but again, if this
is so, I can't tell any difference. Perhaps they breathe easier there, but for
other reasons... 'Up' is always applied to this area.
Ellen Johnson
ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:49 EST
From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Subject: Re: uptown/barrios altos
Here in Athens Ohio--one of those college towns three blocks long and two blocks
wide--for thirty years at least the kids have said they "uptown" to the bars
because Athens is too small to have a downtown!
David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"
BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:42:35 -0500
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Thanks to everyone who responded to my query a while back re: diversity
of accents in the U.S. Here's the outcome (sorry it took so long!; original
copies are on their way to Robert Wachal and Donald Livingston, who got
cited.)
-- Cathy Ball (Georgetown)
---------------