There are 12 messages totalling 392 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. fillim (2)

 2. folk/folklore (4)

 3. Wayne's List

 4. Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk (5)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 03:32:04 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: fillim



I have two acquaintances who pronounce film with two syllables as

fillim or fillum. One blames his Irish roots and the other is

from New York and has a Jewish background. Does anyone have an

explanation as to a causal connection for either of these?



Seth Sklarey







>David Rojas writes:

>----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>After the /I/ in 'milk', 'silk', and 'film', I do pronounce the /l/ before the

>final consonant; however, in /a/ words such as 'balm', 'calm', 'balk', 'talk',

>'walk', etc, I think I never pronounce the /l/ before the final consonant.

>I would like to get some feedback on the distribution of this pronunciation

>"rule" that I seem to express.   D M Rojas (drojas1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ua1vm.ua.edu)

>-------------------------------------------------

>Yes, that's consistent with a number of us who report operating with* a

>regular distinction between non-back vowels, after which the L is pronounced

>([I] as in milk and film, [E] as in elm, [AE] as in talc (= talcum) and calc

>(= calculus), and schwa as in hulk and sulk) and (some) back vowels, after

>which it isn't (open o as in balk and talk, [a] as in balm and calm). For me,

>as mentioned, [o] sometimes wipes out the following L (as in the 'folk' words

>and 'yolk') and sometimes doesn't (Polk, Volks(wagen), Tolk ['Tolkien groupie']

>and so on).

>

>Larry

>

>*at least in my case; I probably shouldn't generalize

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 06:34:21 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



In all the discussion of "pronouncing the l" in words like 'milk' or

'folk' or 'calm' everyone seems to equate "pronouncing the l" with

apical closure. Consider the vowel quality. In the case of yolk/yoke

apical closure seems to be simply present or absent. But phonologically,

if one "doesn't pronounce the l" in 'calm' or 'milk' one would be

saying 'cam' or 'mick'.  These are lexical items with phonological

components and are acquired as part of a larger pattern.  Is the [a] the same

in 'pom' and 'palm', and the same quantitatively? Is there any diphthongization

in these words in which "l is not pronounced"?

Wayne Glowka alluded to these aspects of "pronouncing the l" in his

"He cain't hep hissef." The people who really do not pronounce the /l/ will

also spell 'help' as 'hep' and have temporally short vowels in both words.

And some of the people who "cain't hep theirself" will have no -l- in 'elm'

and then use a vowel that suggests an ambiguous elm/ilm spelling. Southern

folk phonology and inflectional morphology are really interesting. But

the folk/foke phenomenon that started this thread is not a regional matter,

I suspect.

On another matter:

And thanks to Jesse Seidlower for the wonderful information on 'bite my

ass'. As Beavis/Butthead wannabes continue to unflinchingly say everything

"sucks," they may mess up lots of other old expressions that are

far enough away from the edge of gross to be useful to many of us old folks,

because they're salacious but not in-your-face gross.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 07:20:11 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



> ass'. As Beavis/Butthead wannabes continue to unflinchingly say everything

> "sucks," they may mess up lots of other old expressions that are



Oh dear. Part of my e-mail lexicon (in some settings) is that something-or-

other SUX. And the signature file on my dog's e-mail account says "fleas

suck." His statement is serious, of course.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:01:02 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Two notes:



1) A student yesterday said "You're welcome" to me yesterday with no /l/.

She was r-ful, however.



2) I ought to let this thread die, but I'm wondering about other groups of

words. How l-ful and what vowels occur in the same speaker in words like

these?



psalm salmon salmonella



psaltery sultry salty saltine



Faulk Faulkner Falcons falcon falconry



(By the way, an unabashedly racist-talking someone I know [who talks this

way to make everyone in the room uneasy] always talks about the Atlanta

FalCOONS--whether they've been losing or winning.)



fowl fowler foul fouler



palm Palmer palmate pommade napalm



shelf chef shelf-liner



balm bomb



Bub bulb (Sledd's illustration of duration as phonemic in Southern)



pap palpitation



pup pulp (People around here are "pulpwood sawyers"--no /l/)



folk folks folklore folkdance folksong folksy



poke pork Polk



poultry paltry poetry



poultice poetess



walk wok



hep (as in "hep-cat") help helper helpful



Alps Albert Alfred



Camellia Amelia (locally, [kxmejx] and [xmijx]--x = schwa)



altitude attitude



all Al already  "Al ready?"



y'all yawl yowl



hall howl Howell



pull pool



bow (as in "bow tie) bowl bowling bowler



mall maul mallet malt



molt moat



cold code



hit hilt



sick silk sicky silky



filters fitters



melt met



Sorry about this long list, but I was just wondering.





















Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:35:48 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Wayne's List



additions to Wayne's list by Seth Sklarey: (yes, I know he was threading on

L-stuff

but I was just wondering too.)



fixin' (pronounce "fissin") fission fiction



dissin' Dixon



is falcons pronounced fawlcuns like the season or phallcons



bubba bulbous



saws sores sawyers soilers



law lore lawyers lawless



Philco



Wayne wrote:



>Two notes:

>

>1) A student yesterday said "You're welcome" to me yesterday with no /l/.

>She was r-ful, however.

>

>2) I ought to let this thread die, but I'm wondering about other groups of

>words. How l-ful and what vowels occur in the same speaker in words like

>these?

>

>psalm salmon salmonella

>

>psaltery sultry salty saltine

>

 etc.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 06:51:24 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



>By the way, one of those announcers with a stay-pressed smile on ET last

>night pronounced the name of Dekalb, Illinois, with an /l/. There is no

>/l/ in "Dekalb County," a county in the metro Atlanta area.



Wait a minute! Atlanta is in Cobb County. Maybe what you've hearing is "de

Cobb" county. %^)



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:22:00 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Just to amuse or amaze Peter, I will note that my partner and I often

pronounce the l in walk, but it is a deliberate and joking choice that

we use only to each other (it comes out like "wall" with a /k/ after

it).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 08:52:19 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: fillim



Growing up in a port-town of Los Angeles, Wilmington, I had a next-door

neighbor from Missouri who said both 'fillum' and 'bullub' when talking

about photographic equipment. Sounds like consonant-cluster reduction to me!



On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> I have two acquaintances who pronounce film with two syllables as

> fillim or fillum. One blames his Irish roots and the other is

> from New York and has a Jewish background. Does anyone have an

> explanation as to a causal connection for either of these?

>

> Seth Sklarey

>

>

>

> >David Rojas writes:

> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> >After the /I/ in 'milk', 'silk', and 'film', I do pronounce the /l/ before the

> >final consonant; however, in /a/ words such as 'balm', 'calm', 'balk', 'talk',

> >'walk', etc, I think I never pronounce the /l/ before the final consonant.

> >I would like to get some feedback on the distribution of this pronunciation

> >"rule" that I seem to express.   D M Rojas (drojas1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ua1vm.ua.edu)

> >-------------------------------------------------

> >Yes, that's consistent with a number of us who report operating with* a

> >regular distinction between non-back vowels, after which the L is pronounced

> >([I] as in milk and film, [E] as in elm, [AE] as in talc (= talcum) and calc

> >(= calculus), and schwa as in hulk and sulk) and (some) back vowels, after

> >which it isn't (open o as in balk and talk, [a] as in balm and calm). For me,

> >as mentioned, [o] sometimes wipes out the following L (as in the 'folk' words

> >and 'yolk') and sometimes doesn't (Polk, Volks(wagen), Tolk ['Tolkien groupie']

> >and so on).

> >

> >Larry

> >

> >*at least in my case; I probably shouldn't generalize

> >

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 12:01:43 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



>>By the way, one of those announcers with a stay-pressed smile on ET last

>>night pronounced the name of Dekalb, Illinois, with an /l/. There is no

>>/l/ in "Dekalb County," a county in the metro Atlanta area.

>

>Wait a minute! Atlanta is in Cobb County. Maybe what you've hearing is "de

>Cobb" county. %^)

>

>-- Jim



I don't have a map in here and I'm late for class, but the Atlanta METRO

counties include Fulton, Clayton, Cobb, and Dekalb. Some At(a)lanter can

fill you in on the details. Georgia counties are small (the theory is that

a person could ride to the courthouse and home in a day on a horse); metro

Atlanta is big.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 09:11:54 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Could we add wolf (as in Big Bad) and woof! (as in Bow wow!) to Wayne's

list? I'm still curious whether anyone but me pronounces (or formerly

pronounced) these homophonically as [wUf].



Peter



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 11:14:45 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Dekalb in northeast Texas also is DEE-cab. And not far away in

southwest Arkansas are the town of DEE-queen and DEE-gray Lake.

                             DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 22:51:05 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Am I wrong to take exception to the inclusion of words like <talk> in the

discussion of the loss of /l/? Is my historical linguistics outdated or didn't

Elizabethan English fill the "slot" left by the raising of "long open o" to /o/

by converting {AL} and {AU/W} words like <talk>, <daughter>, <law>?



Margaret Schlauch. The English Language in Modern Times, p. 45: "au in Germanic

words, derived from a+w, remained a diphthong for a time, as in <law> and <saw>;

simplification occurred later to [long open o] by way of [open o diphthongized

to U]."



Thomas Pyles, Origins & Development, 2nd ed., p. 189: "The <l> of Middle English

preconsonantal <al> was lost after first becoming a vowel: thus Middle English

<al> and <au> fell together as <au>, ultimately becoming [long open o](as in

<talk>, <walk>) except befere <f>, <v>, and <m>, where it became [long low front

digraph] in such words as <half>, <salve>, and <psalm>."



So aren't we REALLY talking about the re-introduction of an /l/ from the

spelling analogous to disyllabic <forehead>? So what's all this talk about

loss? Loss inthe case in words like <folk> also occurred in the early modern

period in England. Is the claim that the "loss" of /l/ in <folklore> but not

<folk> not that it's easier to reintroduce an /l/ in a single syllable? Or is

the claim that southern speakers who "retain" /l/ have resisted a 400-hundred

year old sound change?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1995 to 1 Nov 1995

***********************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 376 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. folk/folklore (5)

 2. Wayne's List

 3. Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk

 4. fillim

 5. Hello



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 23:12:50 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



You wrote the long list, here's my response - NYC born & bred, Calif. more

than half my life now. Rima

>psalm /sam/ salmon /saemuhn/ salmonella /salmuhneluh/

>

>psaltery /sawltuhree/ sultry /sultree/ salty /sawltee/ saltine /sawlteen/

>

>Faulk /fawlk/ Faulkner /fawknuhr/ Falcons /faelkuhnz/ falcon /faelkuhn,

>fawl-/ falconry /fawlkuhnree/

>

>fowl fowler foul fouler:  all /fowl../

>

>palm Palmer palmate pommade napalm: all /pam../

>

>shelf /shelf/ chef /shef/ shelf-liner /shelf.../

>

>balm bomb: /bam/

>

>Bub /bub/ bulb /bulb/



>pap /paep/ palpitation /paelpitayshuhn/

>

>pup /pup/ pulp /pulp/

>

>folk folks folklore folkdance folksong folksy: all /fok/

>

>poke /pok/ pork /pawrk/ with a not very strong r Polk /pok/

>

>poultry /poltree/ paltry /paawltree/ poetry /po-itree/

>

>poultice /poltis/ poetess /po-itis/

>

>walk /wawk/ wok /wak/

>

>hep (as in "hep-cat") /hep/ help helper helpful: all /help.../

>

>Alps Albert Alfred: all /ael.../

>

>Camellia Amelia: /(k)uhmeelyuh/

>

>altitude /aelti../ attitude /ati.../

>

>all /awl/ Al /ael/ already  "Al ready?" /awlredee, awredee/

>

>y'all /yawl/ yawl /yawl/ yowl /yowl/

>

>hall /hawl/ howl /howl/ Howell /howuhl/

>

>pull /pul/ pool /pool/

>

>bow (as in "bow tie) /bo/ bowl bowling bowler: all /bol.../

>

>mall maul: both /mawl/ mallet /maelit/ malt /mawlt/

>

>molt /molt/ moat /mot/

>

>cold /kold/ code /kod/

>

>hit /hit/ hilt /hilt/

>

>sick/sik/ silk /silk/ sicky /sikee/ silky /silkee/

>

>filters /filtuhrz/ fitters /fituhrs/

>

>melt /melt/ met /met/

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 1 Nov 1995 23:12:56 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Wayne's List



>fixin' (pronounce "fissin") /fiksin/ fission /fishin/ fiction /fikshuhn/

>

>dissin' /disin/ Dixon /diksuhn/

>

>bubba /bubuh/ bulbous /bulbuhs/

>

>saws /sawz/ sores /sawrz/ sawyers /sawyuhrz/ soilers /soyluhrz/

>

>law /law/ lore /lawr/ lawyers /loyuhrz/ lawless /lawlis/

>

Rima who thinks that my pronunciation of sawyers and lawyers differs

because of their frequency (or lack thereof) in my speech.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 06:59:15 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



At 9:11 AM 11/1/95 -0800, Peter McGraw wrote:

>Could we add wolf (as in Big Bad) and woof! (as in Bow wow!) to Wayne's

>list? I'm still curious whether anyone but me pronounces (or formerly

>pronounced) these homophonically as [wUf].



My boss, born and raised in Hollywood, does. He has trouble with l's in

general and I always thought it was a sort of lisp, or something, but I am

beginning to see it may instead be a dialect.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 09:31:04 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



>From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

>    FUNC: English

>    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

>To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX

>

>Am I wrong to take exception to the inclusion of words like <talk> in the

>discussion of the loss of /l/? Is my historical linguistics outdated or didn't

>Elizabethan English fill the "slot" left by the raising of "long open o" to /o/

>by converting {AL} and {AU/W} words like <talk>, <daughter>, <law>?

>

>Margaret Schlauch. The English Language in Modern Times, p. 45: "au in Germanic

>words, derived from a+w, remained a diphthong for a time, as in <law> and

><saw>;

>simplification occurred later to [long open o] by way of [open o diphthongized

>to U]."

>

>Thomas Pyles, Origins & Development, 2nd ed., p. 189: "The <l> of Middle

>English

>preconsonantal <al> was lost after first becoming a vowel: thus Middle English

><al> and <au> fell together as <au>, ultimately becoming [long open o](as in

><talk>, <walk>) except befere <f>, <v>, and <m>, where it became [long low

>front

>digraph] in such words as <half>, <salve>, and <psalm>."

>

>So aren't we REALLY talking about the re-introduction of an /l/ from the

>spelling analogous to disyllabic <forehead>?



Basically, yes, but I wonder if it really ever disappeared in some

dialects. How did Pyles and Schlauch arrive at these conclusions? One of

the most disturbing classes I took at the Univ. of Texas was a Middle

English dialects class. Every day we discovered that the dialect

descriptions in our HEL class were very convenient (hell, and elaborate)

fictions.



I have a similar problem every day as I listen to people around me.

Southerners all sounded the same to me until I lived around them. What

they say and how they say it is a function of way too many variables--age,

sex, class, experiences, education, race, etc. I think Henry Higgins was

an out-and-out liar about his abilities to place a person within two

streets of some place in London by speech alone. I defy him to do the same

in Milledgeville.

*********************************



So the list above ( <half>, <salve>, and <psalm>) strikes me as very

interesting. I get few students who put up much of an argument that <half>

has an /l/, a word that has also fallen together with the <path> and

<grass> group in British English. I've never tried having anyone

transcribe <salve>, but I rarely hear anyone under sixty use the word.

However, I wonder if anyone who uses it and does not pronounce the <l> also

has no /l/ in <salvation>. Further, I never actually hear anyone say

<psalm> (like <Sam> [s[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m]), but I do hear [sam] and [salm], the latter with

a clearly pronounced /l/. In fact, I say [salm]. I hear /l/ in <balmy> a

lot, but never hear <balm> pronounced one way or the other at all since

<lotion> and <creme/cream> seem to be the preferred terms. If someone said

[bami] I would not immediately know what that person was saying. Is it in

_South Pacific_ in which there is a song that rhymes <army> and <balmy>?

When I first heard this rhyme, I thought it was a far-fetched joke since

I'm neither r-less or l-less in these words.



**********************************

Rhymes (discounting stress assignments) for me:



psalm balm calm napalm (with /al/)



Sal salvation salmonella (with /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l/)



Sam salmon (/[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ with no /l/)



halve salve calve (/[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ with no /l/)



half calf (/[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ with no /l/)



walk talk baulk/balk caulk chalk (open-o with no /l/ but with an off-glide)



milk silk ilk (with /l/)





I have /l/ in <wolf>, <elm>, and <film>, but have heard the l-less

varieties many, many times.



This post is too long for me,



















Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:14:07 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



On Rima's responses:



I'm from New York City too, and I'll just say "what she said", EXCEPT:

 (1) for me, Faulk rhymes with 'hawk': no L

 (2) on the other hand, 'Polk' doesn't rhyme with 'poke'; the former does

     have an L

 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 10:49:01 -0500

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: fillim



One thing at stake might be the fact that in Irish (Gaelic), an

epenthetic schwa is natural between l and m, so ellum and fillum are

natural Irishisms in English. Considering the density of Irish

population in New York City during the years the so-called New York

speech arose, and many groups came to speak it, it's not surprising that

other ethnic speakers from NY would walk under ellum trees --- if there

were any left to walk under.



==================================================

Robert Kelly

Division of Literature and Languages, Bard College

Annandale-on-Hudson NY 12504

Voice Mail: 914-758-7600 Box 7205

kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu



On Wed, 1 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> I have two acquaintances who pronounce film with two syllables as

> fillim or fillum. One blames his Irish roots and the other is

> from New York and has a Jewish background. Does anyone have an

> explanation as to a causal connection for either of these?

>

> Seth Sklarey

>

>

>

> >David Rojas writes:

> >----------------------------Original message----------------------------

> >After the /I/ in 'milk', 'silk', and 'film', I do pronounce the /l/ before the

> >final consonant; however, in /a/ words such as 'balm', 'calm', 'balk', 'talk',

> >'walk', etc, I think I never pronounce the /l/ before the final consonant.

> >I would like to get some feedback on the distribution of this pronunciation

> >"rule" that I seem to express.   D M Rojas (drojas1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ua1vm.ua.edu)

> >-------------------------------------------------

> >Yes, that's consistent with a number of us who report operating with* a

> >regular distinction between non-back vowels, after which the L is pronounced

> >([I] as in milk and film, [E] as in elm, [AE] as in talc (= talcum) and calc

> >(= calculus), and schwa as in hulk and sulk) and (some) back vowels, after

> >which it isn't (open o as in balk and talk, [a] as in balm and calm). For me,

> >as mentioned, [o] sometimes wipes out the following L (as in the 'folk' words

> >and 'yolk') and sometimes doesn't (Polk, Volks(wagen), Tolk ['Tolkien groupie']

> >and so on).

> >

> >Larry

> >

> >*at least in my case; I probably shouldn't generalize

> >

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 22:09:59 +0100

From:  Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner <more[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUGU.USAL.ES>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Don Mariano,

Please, que no aparezca en los mensajes generales los nombres de todos

aquellos que tenemos buzon en gugu.

Que tal te va la vida? Menos mal que es jueves, pero mira la hora que es

y todavia esta una amarrada al duro banco de la galera turquesca....

Besos,

More



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 22:12:09 +0100

From:  Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner <more[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUGU.USAL.ES>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Sorry about that. Wrong address.

F. Garcia-Bermejo Giner



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 2 Nov 1995 18:42:05 -0800

From:  Bryan <bryan100[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Hello



My friend Bryan and I are two aspiring individuals looking for a

way to raise some money to cover our portion of our college

expenses for next semester. We have joined up with a major

Christmas Tree and Wreath distributor to make this opportunity

available. We would appreciate your patronage and support. Please

forward this information to anyone you know who might be

interested.



Have your Christmas Tree and Wreath delivered directly to your

home or other location of your choice with a 100% satisfaction

guarantee.



The following trees and wreaths are available:



6' to 7' Noble Fir Tree, fresh cut

                      Stock #  Price

Phase one delivery, most states      Z-5929-C5  $44.99

Phase one delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5930-C5  $49.99

Phase two delivery, most states      Z-5931-C5  $44.99

Phase two delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5941-C5  $49.99



6' to 7' Scottish Pine, fresh cut

                      Stock #  Price

Phase one delivery, most states      Z-5663-C5  $29.99

Phase one delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5668-C5  $37.99

Phase two delivery, most states      Z-5669-C5  $29.99

Phase two delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5674-C5  $37.99



6' to 7' Fraser Fir from the mountains in North Carolina

                      Stock #  Price

Phase one delivery, most states      Z-5415-C5  $59.99

Phase one delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5590-C5  $64.99

Phase two delivery, most states      Z-5598-C5  $59.99

Phase two delivery, (CA, AZ and NV)    Z-5620-C5  $64.99





24", Noble Fir Wreath freshly cut $19.99

                      Stock #

Phase one delivery, all states       Z-5928-C5

Phase two delivery, all states       Z-5683-C5



Fraser Fir Wreath with pine cones, red berries and a festive

tartan bow. This wreath is freshly cut and available for $27.99.

                      Stock #

Phase one delivery, all states       Z-5622-C5

Phase two delivery, all states       Z-5916-C5



Prices do not include shipping charges and may be subject to

local sales tax.





Phase one delivery is between Nov. 20 and Dec. 8, and orders must

be placed by Nov. 17. Phase two delivery is between Dec. 4 and

Dec. 22, and orders must be placed by Dec. 8.





For more information or to order, call 1-800-253-6500. All

trees are shipped directly to your home or other location of

your choice. 100% satisfaction guarantee. You will need the

following access number to process your order: JOH1648765X.



Warmest wishes for a happy and safe Holiday Season.



-- Mike



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1995 to 2 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 129 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Berkeley Women and Language Conference

 2. Letterman the linguist? (2)

 3. Hello (2)

 4. Letterman



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 07:17:06 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Berkeley Women and Language Conference



Very sorry to bother the list with this, but..



does anyone know the dates and the contact address for the Berkeley

women and language conference?



if so, would you post them to me?



Thanks!



Beth Simon

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



see you in St. Louis, in a couple of hours



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 13:56:27 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Letterman the linguist?



Of late, David Letterman has been using a word, "gespinkto" (or

"gesfinkto"?), which seems to mean something like "finished," "kaput,"

(it's) "history." Does anyone know if this word has any basis in reality, or

is it just something our gap-toothed goofball from Indiana dreamed up?



Curiously,



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 16:23:53 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello



On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Bryan wrote:



>

> My friend Bryan and I are two aspiring individuals looking for a

> way to raise some money to cover our portion of our college

> expenses for next semester. We have joined up with a major

> Christmas Tree and Wreath distributor to make this opportunity

> available. We would appreciate your patronage and support. Please

> forward this information to anyone you know who might be

> interested.

>

> Warmest wishes for a happy and safe Holiday Season.

>

 This is not, in my view, an appropriate message for this bulletin

board. Please don't do this again. I wouldn't buy a twig from you when

you try to sell to me this way. I hope nobody else buys anything,

either.



Warm wishes to you, too.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 17:29:43 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello



Does anyone know the first occurrence in print of 'to not buy a twig from

someone'?

Your are so polite Ron.

Dennis



>On Thu, 2 Nov 1995, Bryan wrote:

>

>>

>> My friend Bryan and I are two aspiring individuals looking for a

>> way to raise some money to cover our portion of our college

>> expenses for next semester. We have joined up with a major

>> Christmas Tree and Wreath distributor to make this opportunity

>> available. We would appreciate your patronage and support. Please

>> forward this information to anyone you know who might be

>> interested.

>>

>> Warmest wishes for a happy and safe Holiday Season.

>>

> This is not, in my view, an appropriate message for this bulletin

>board. Please don't do this again. I wouldn't buy a twig from you when

>you try to sell to me this way. I hope nobody else buys anything,

>either.

>

>Warm wishes to you, too.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 16:27:04 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Letterman



   Peter Tamony recorded an example of "gestanko", i.e., pretty gestanko

   = pretty bad. Life Magazine, 15 December 1942, page 89, carried

   something about the use of the phrase "pretty gestanko" in the motion

   picture Ball of Fire, starring Gary Cooper and Barbara Stanwyck.



    Surely Letterman is not making some play on the common "finito"

   meaning finished, kaput.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 3 Nov 1995 15:56:05 -0800

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Letterman the linguist?



On Fri, 3 Nov 1995, Jerry Miller wrote:



> Of late, David Letterman has been using a word, "gespinkto" (or

> "gesfinkto"?), which seems to mean something like "finished," "kaput,"

> (it's) "history." Does anyone know if this word has any basis in reality, or

> is it just something our gap-toothed goofball from Indiana dreamed up?



i hate to practice seat-of-the-pants etymology, but surely this is

"gesphincto" = having been sphinctered = having passed through the

sphincter = having been processed and discarded. is ge + root + o

pseudo-german?



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1995 to 3 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There is one message totalling 41 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Job Announcment



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 4 Nov 1995 10:34:36 -0400

From:  Jeutonne Brewer <BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Job Announcment



   *****       Job Announcement       ******



University of North Carolina At Greensboro

Department of English

Greensboro, NC 27412



We invite applications for four tenure-track positions, with

appointments effective August 1, 1996. The University is an Equal

Employment Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Women,

minorities, veterans, and disabled persons are encouraged to

apply. The deadline for application is November 17, 1995. Please

include SASE for acknowledgement.



Assistant Professor of English, tenure-track, Rhetoric and

Composition (with expertise in linguistics, discourse theory,

literacy, sociology of language) to teach in a department with a

Ph.D. specialization in Rhetoric and programs in Teacher

Education. Ph.D. and teaching experience required. Salary

competitive. Send letter of application with c. v. to Chair,

Rhetoric Search Committee.



[We are also conducting searches for an Assistant/Associate

Professor of English in Creative Writing, Poetry;

Nineteenth-Century American Literature (with expertise in

American Romanticism; and Twentieth-Century American Literature

(with expertise in Souther literature and culture). Complete

details are available in the recent MLA job listing.]



Inofrmation submitted by:

******************************************************************************

* Jeutonne P. Brewer BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU                 *

* Department of English                           *

* U of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, NC 27412          *

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1995 to 4 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 125 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Report on SAADS (3)

 2. ADS-L Anniversary

 3. hypermedia language programs?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Nov 1995 14:29:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Report on SAADS



I'm happy to report that ADS is alive and well in the South Atlantic

region. Thanks to Connie Eble's skillful chairing, the ADS section

at SAMLA was a success yesterday. Although the first paper on the

program was rather flimsy, the other two were excellent.



As Regional Secretary, I want to thank Connie for chairing this year's

SAADS session, Ellen Johnson for chairing the Nominating Committee, and

Peter Patrick for agreeing to chair next year's session in Savannah.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Nov 1995 15:47:25 -0500

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Report on SAADS



On Sun, 5 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I'm happy to report that ADS is alive and well in the South Atlantic

> region. Thanks to Connie Eble's skillful chairing, the ADS section

> at SAMLA was a success yesterday. Although the first paper on the

> program was rather flimsy, the other two were excellent.

>

> As Regional Secretary, I want to thank Connie for chairing this year's

> SAADS session, Ellen Johnson for chairing the Nominating Committee, and

> Peter Patrick for agreeing to chair next year's session in Savannah.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

Let me guess who did the first paper. Was it a barefoot English prof

from Mississippi who hangs out on the Internet 25 hours a day?



Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Nov 1995 15:03:04 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: ADS-L Anniversary



It's hard to believe that ADS-L has been in existence almost four years

now. It seems more like a year or two ago that Bill Kretzschmar, Rafal

Konopka, and I stood there at a SAMLA reception talking about the

possibility of starting an e-mail list for ADS. But it really was four

years ago: November 1991.



In spite of occasional spam, misdirected listserv commands sent to the

list, and other such clutter, I'm still glad that we decided to make it

an open list. I personally hate moderated lists and would rather put up

with a little "noise" than with delayed clumps of mail that would result

from running it as a moderated list. As I think I mentioned before, we

decided to try it as an open list but without promoting it outside of the

ADS. Although ADS-L has somehow managed to find its way into various

lists of lists, I'm pleased and relieved that we haven't really had much

of a problem with net-cruisers tossing bricks or cans our way. I think

it's fine for people outside of ADS to subscribe and join the discussion

if they're really interested. If they become interested enough, they will

perhaps join ADS. I know of at least one person who did. Almost certainly

there are others.



I'm pleased that we still have a core of serious scholars contributing

to the list in spite of our occasional ventures into what is more or less

light chitchat. As the net grows and more newcomers arrive, I hope we

can maintain the informal yet sometimes serious ambience.



A reminder to those of you new to the list: Logs of back mail (except

for the first year) are available via anonymous ftp from ftp.msstate.edu

in pub/archives/ADS, via gopher from gopher.msstate.edu (#3 on first

menu, #1 on second), via the web from http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Nov 1995 15:05:50 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Report on SAADS



> Let me guess who did the first paper. Was it a barefoot English prof

> from Mississippi who hangs out on the Internet 25 hours a day?



But who showed *enormous* restraint by not even looking for telnet access

in Atlanta. Two days without logging on! That's pretty impressive...

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 5 Nov 1995 16:16:40 EST

From:  Trace <mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

Subject: hypermedia language programs?



 Hello everyone!



    I am a graduate student in linguistics at Purdue University

 (originally from Alaska, thus my interest in Native American languages)

and I am working on a project about the use of computers, esepcially hypermedia

programs, in teaching Native languages. I am especially instersted in

programs in Alaska and/or the Pacific Northwest, but at this point

I'll take any help I can get.

    In particular, I would like to get my hands (virtually or otherwise)

on any papers (published in journals or at conferences) about computers

and Native languages (especially bilingual programs) education. If you have

any references that could help me I would be very grateful. If you have

written a paper addressing these ideas, I would like to have a copy if that

is at all possible. If you want to know more about me, my interests, or

my project, please feel free to contact me

    Thank you for your time.

    Tracey McHenry

    mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mace.cc.purdue.edu

******************************************************************************

Tracey McHenry     mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mace.cc.purdue.edu



(Joel)--You know, school always smells the same when you go back...

(Crow)--Yep. Smells like shame, guilt, and humiliation.

                --from MST3K _Teenagers from Outer Space_



******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Nov 1995 to 5 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 14 messages totalling 292 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pignuts (5)

 2. ads at ncte, 1995; 1996

 3. thanx for pignuts (2)

 4. "One of the x that has/have"? (6)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 08:17:21 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: pignuts



While helping my father (from Hannibal, MO) rake up his leaves this past

weekend, he pointed out what he called "pignuts" under the leaves--a very

thick-hulled, small-meat hickory nut (or are all hickory nuts like this?).

Has anyone else heard this term, and if so, where, when, etc.?

Thanks.

Greg Pulliam

HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

IIT-Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 09:32:26 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pignuts



>While helping my father (from Hannibal, MO) rake up his leaves this past

>weekend, he pointed out what he called "pignuts" under the leaves--a very

>thick-hulled, small-meat hickory nut (or are all hickory nuts like this?).

>Has anyone else heard this term, and if so, where, when, etc.?

>Thanks.

>Greg Pulliam

>HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

>IIT-Chicago



I have known hickory nuts in Pennsylvania and in Georgia, and they have all

been thick-hulled and small-meated. You need a hammer to crack one of

those things. (Here in Georgia,) we've been doing some work in the woods

and had been setting up a chair in the shade of a hickory tree. However,

the nuts drop with such violence that we now caution the women and children

to stay out from under the hickory tree.



But I do not know "pignuts."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:20:32 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: pignuts



My SO, who grew up in the Hudson Valley (Poughkeepsie, Schenectady,

and Westchester) and went to school in Eastern Connecticut, refers

to them as "pignuts" (and says all hickory nuts are like that). He

is 34 years old.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:35:02 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re: pignuts



Try for a variety of meanings:



Webster's Third

World Book Dictionary

American College Dictionary.



I stopped looking at this point.



Cheers,

David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:55:06 EST

From:  Patricia Kuhlman <GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: pignuts



  In botanical and horticultural circles pignut refers to a particular

species of hickory, Carya glabra, which is native to the eastern

United States. The nuts are small and difficult to crack.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:51:45 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: ads at ncte, 1995; 1996



I am writing to remind those ads members attending ncte next week of our

session on political correctness (c-23) at 2:15 pm, Friday Nov. 17, in San

Diego. We have three exciting speakers:



John Baugh, Lynne Murphy, and Gail Stygall



and we look forward to seeing you all (I mean all y'all, [+pl.], heah?).



I've also just received the ncte call for proposals for 1996, and I'm

taking it upon myself to call for suggestions for next year's ads-ncte

session in Chicago. I've already come up with two ideas to put in the pot:



  1. Grammar and the schools.

  2. Gender and discourse.



Other suggestions are welcome, as are comments on the above, volunteers to

present talks, chair, organize, get donuts (crullers, bismarcks, danish,

microwaveable pastries) and so on. Reply to me (debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu), or

Allan Metcalf, who is really in charge of all of this (Aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com), or

to the list in general.



Our sessions on dirty words and pc terms over the past 4 years have been

well-attended and favorably received, dammit. I think it's time to move on

to something else, though something that will also bring in the crowds.

Chicago, with its central location and miserable climate, promises to be a

big draw (and the miserable climate will keep attendees at the sessions, if

they don't go to the malls), so let's really go for it this year.



We're looking for topics and presentations that are appropriately pitched

for the ncte audience: teachers of English and language arts at the

elementary, middle, high school, and college levels, many of whom have

little formal training in linguistics, or even "school grammar," but who

tend to be favorably disposed to our ideas when presented comprehensibly,

practically, and in an accessible manner (that is, talk, don't read). Part

of our job, as I see it, is to convince teachers who are primarily

concerned with writing and literature (especially the latter) that writing

and literature are made up of language, and that we can give them ideas

about language that will revolutionize or radicalize their world view. Or

at least give them something to do on Monday morning.



Dennis

--









Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 15:34:09 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: thanx for pignuts



Thank you for the info on pignuts--it seems I should have done my own

homework before asking for help. I'm guilty of assuming that because

it sounds regional, an item must be regional. I do seem to have gotten

slight variations in responses, though. Some suggest that all Hickory

nuts are pignuts; some that certain hickory nuts are pignuts; AHD seems

to suggest that pignuts are another variety of nut than hickory. My dad's

usage seemed to me to be the second of the above.

Any more thoughts n "pignuts"? Thanks again for your time.

Greg Pulliam

IIT-Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 19:07:09 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: thanx for pignuts



Greg, what does it mean for an item to "sound regional"?



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:05:26 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: "One of the x that has/have"?



I don't want to do the work I am supposed to do tonight, so instead I shall

pose a query that arose in my mind as I sat reading the 11/13 New Yorker

(instead of doing the work I do not want to do tonight).



In a squib on Colin Powell (p. 35), this sentence occurs:



"One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is

that Amerians vote for a Presidential candidate mainly because of where

he stands on certain clearly defined isues."



It seems to me that the semantic sense of the sentence calls for a

"One of the fictions that has" construction. If a student handed me that

sentence, I am certain I would mark it and have a little talk with her about

her soul.



How about it? Is the NYorker slipping? Or am I?



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 20:32:06 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



> "One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

> of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is

> that Amerians vote for a Presidential candidate mainly because of where

> he stands on certain clearly defined isues."

>

> It seems to me that the semantic sense of the sentence calls for a

> "One of the fictions that has" construction. If a student handed me that



My view of the semantic sense calls for "have."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:34:41 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



Thanks, Natalie. Now we have both points of view. But why? It is only

ONE fiction that is addressed in the rest of the sentence.



Syntactically (and, Lord knows, I am no syntactician), it seems to me that

the PP "of the fictions" modifies "One" which needs the verb "has."



Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 20:41:12 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



> Thanks, Natalie. Now we have both points of view. But why? It is only

> ONE fiction that is addressed in the rest of the sentence.



But it's one of the fictions that have grown out of the interviewing.



> Syntactically (and, Lord knows, I am no syntactician), it seems to me that

> the PP "of the fictions" modifies "One" which needs the verb "has."



But "that have grown out of the interviewing" goes with "fictions" -- plural.

It's presumably not the only fiction that has grown out of the interviewing.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:30:49 -0600

From:  Gerald Walton <vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



>"One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

>of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is



"Of the fictions that have grown, one is...." Seems gramatically correct to

me. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:00:47 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



>"One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

>>of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is



>"Of the fictions that have grown, one is...." Seems gramatically

>correct to

>me. GWW



Or, preserving the word order of the original,



One [of [THE FICTIONS that HAVE grown out of the constant interviewing of

      Reed and other arbiters of r-w p c]] is ...



If I'm not mistaken, even prescriptivists (at least Safire) argue explicitly

for the logic of the plural in contexts like 'One of the women that work in my

office', etc.



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1995 to 6 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 33 messages totalling 817 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "One of the x that has/have"? (9)

 2. supervisor/coupon (10)

 3. "One of the X that has/have"?

 4. One of the x that has/have

 5. bougainvillea (9)

 6. Bounced Mail

 7. bougainvilla

 8. E-Glyphs/Emoticons



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 00:05:08 -0400

From:  Jeutonne Brewer <BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



Sorry I don't have the exact sentence in front of me, but I remember a rule from my high school (prescriptive) English class. For "One of the fictions" have/has the verb should be has because the head noun (or simple subject) is "one." The plural in the prepositional phrase does not serve as the controller for subject-verb agreement. In other words, I remember the rule the you do, Bethany.



However, I think this is an area where change is taking place. It seems that the noun closest to the verb often controls agreement. In a case like this syntax seems to control rather than semantics. I suspect there is much variation in the examples like this.

*********************************************************************

* Jeutonne P. Brewer BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU            *

* Department of English                      *

* U of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, NC 27412     *

*********************************************************************





------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 00:05:46 -0400

From:  Jeutonne Brewer <BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: supervisor/coupon



On "60 Minutes" I heard Mike Wallace say "supervisor" with /syu/ instead of /su/ as the first



syllable. I had never thought of this word as one with this pronunciation. And I wouldn't think of



Mike Wallace as being a /syu/ speaker.







I remember some discussion earlier of words like "coupon" with /kyu/. I always use this



pronunciation for "coupon" (and decided long ago not to change it) but would never use it for words



like "supervisor" or "newspaper." If you use the /yu/ or /iu/ pronunciation, do you use it for



"supervisor"?







In NC I get to hear both pronounced /yu/ (more in the eastern part of the state) and /u/ speakers. It



always provides a good subject for discussion in class. When I moved to NC in the late 60s, I had



never thought about this pronunciation. As a graduate student in Chapel Hill, I very quickly learned



an important (on campus) distinction. Every year there were signs on campus--"Beat Dook!" Of



course, 25 miles away, the proper spelling and pronunciation for Duke had a /yu/. I wonder if the



difference in pronunciation is still distinct and noted.



*********************************************************************



* Jeutonne P. Brewer BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU            *



* Department of English                      *



* U of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, NC 27412     *



*********************************************************************















------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 00:33:05 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne" <ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



>...but I remember a rule from my high school (prescriptive) English class.

>For >"One of the fictions" have/has the verb should be has because the

>head noun (or >simple subject) is "one." The plural in the prepositional

>phrase does not serve >as the controller for subject-verb agreement.

And why does it not, pray tell? Let's look at a couple of simpler scenarios.

1) I have three cats. One of them is sitting on the porch. He is named Tiger.

(The other two, let's say, are named Murka and Neko,

respectively.)

So I say: One of the cats that is sitting on the porch is named Tiger.



2) I have three cats. All three of them are sitting on the porch. One of them

is named Tiger. (The other two, let's say, are named Murka and Neko,

respectively.)

So I say: One of the cats that are sitting on the porch is named Tiger.



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Morrill Hall, Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 01:29:42 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



On Mon, 6 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> In a squib on Colin Powell (p. 35), this sentence occurs:

>

> "One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

> of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is

> that Amerians vote for a Presidential candidate mainly because of where

> he stands on certain clearly defined isues."

>

Bethany,



I don't consider myself a grammarian, but I would consider "have" correct

since the relative pronoun "that" in this sentence refers to the word

"fictions", a plural. The word "one" really doesn't come into play in

figuring the proper inflection for the to be verb which follows. A petty

point to be sure, but one you would want to be consider if you were going

to note it in a student's paper. As for me, I'd probably glide right

over it if it didn't really interfere with the point at hand. Besides,

you might get a student who's really into that stuff. My two cents.



The to be verb which acts with "one" is the word "is" which follows after

the long modifying phrase.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 02:11:10 -0500

From:  Duane Price <Thx23[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



In a message dated 95-11-07 00:25:54 EST, Larry writes:



>>"Of the fictions that have grown, one is...." Seems gramatically

>>correct to

>>me. GWW

>

>Or, preserving the word order of the original,

>

>One [of [THE FICTIONS that HAVE grown out of the constant interviewing of

>      Reed and other arbiters of r-w p c]] is ...

>

>If I'm not mistaken, even prescriptivists (at least Safire) argue explicitly

>for the logic of the plural in contexts like 'One of the women that work in

>my

>office', etc.

>

>Larry



I'm in at the tailend of this one, but it seems like a fairly simple issue to

me:

"Of the fictions that have grown, one is...." is grammatically correct

because

the adjective clause "that have grown" modifies "fictions," which is a plural

noun; and the verb in any such clause must agree with the subject that it's

subordinating conjuction represents. You may only be referring to one

fiction, but many HAVE grown. Is it me, or is this one a no-brainer?



 ~The trick was to surrender to the flow...

                     -Trey Anastasio







               Duane (Thx23[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:16:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: "One of the X that has/have"?



I think it can be interpreted either way. It depends on whether the clause is

referring to "the fictions" or only to "one of" them.



This doesn't really fall into the common mistake many people make of giving

the verb the same number as the noun closest to it (as in the example of the

three cats sitting on the porch). Here, it depends on the intention of the

speaker, and I would interpret either verb as correct.





* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

International Service for National       Phone: 31 (70) 349-6107

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)         Fax:  31 (70) 381-9677

The Hague, The Netherlands         E-mail: k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 06:20:31 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



BETHANY DUMAS wrote:

>In a squib on Colin Powell (p. 35), this sentence occurs:

>

>"One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

>of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is

>that Amerians vote for a Presidential candidate mainly because of where

>he stands on certain clearly defined isues."

>

>It seems to me that the semantic sense of the sentence calls for a

>"One of the fictions that has" construction. If a student handed me that

>sentence, I am certain I would mark it and have a little talk with her about

>her soul.

>

>How about it? Is the NYorker slipping? Or am I?

>



New Yorker is slipping.



On this subject, a lawyer friend has suggested that since the U.S.

Constitution bars

titled persons from holding political office, that Colin Powell is ineligible

for having been knighted by Queen Elizabeth.



---



Y'all again:



I was walking with another man a few days ago when an older, black man asked:

"Would one of y'alls help me with this?"



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 05:31:31 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



> If you use the /yu/ or /iu/ pronunciation, do you use it for

> "supervisor"?



I'm a /ju/ (/yu/) user in words like "news," "Tuesday," "coupon" but would

not use it in "supervisor." I can't think of any words I would have the

/sju/ combination in.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



P.S. For those of you who think the sentence Bethany mentioned last night

should have said "has" instead of "have," should I say "I'm one of the

people who USES /ju/ in 'news'"?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 07:52:11 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



Bracket this:



'This is the only one of the fictions which has/*have caused us any trouble

at all' (as opposed to '...one of those dictions which have...). It seems

clear to me that 'semantic' facts can indeed 'disrupt' the over-simple

prescriptivist rule.

The 'only' addition demands singular agreeemnt

Dennis Preston



>BETHANY DUMAS wrote:

>>In a squib on Colin Powell (p. 35), this sentence occurs:

>>

>>"One of the fictions that have grown out of the constant interviewing

>>of Reed and other arbiters of right-wing political correctness is

>>that Amerians vote for a Presidential candidate mainly because of where

>>he stands on certain clearly defined isues."

>>

>>It seems to me that the semantic sense of the sentence calls for a

>>"One of the fictions that has" construction. If a student handed me that

>>sentence, I am certain I would mark it and have a little talk with her about

>>her soul.

>>

>>How about it? Is the NYorker slipping? Or am I?

>>

>

>New Yorker is slipping.

>

>On this subject, a lawyer friend has suggested that since the U.S.

>Constitution bars

>titled persons from holding political office, that Colin Powell is ineligible

>for having been knighted by Queen Elizabeth.

>

>---

>

>Y'all again:

>

>I was walking with another man a few days ago when an older, black man asked:

>"Would one of y'alls help me with this?"

>

>Seth Sklarey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:28:03 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman" <egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>

Subject: One of the x that has/have



All right, accuse me of being one of those who is/are always

self-promoting, but see WDEU under "one of those who", beginning on

page 689. The NYorker is OK:

   I am one of those People who by the general Opinion of the World

   are counted both Infamous and Unhappy--Joseph Addison, The

  Spectator

On the other hand,

   My worthy Friend Sir Roger is one of those who is not only at

   Peace with himself, but beloved and esteemed by all about him--

  Joseph Addison, The Spectator

See also John S. Kenyon in American Speech, October 1951.



EWGilman



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:40:17 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



And, for what it's worth, I say "Tyoosday" but don't put a glide in

"news" or "coupon." Is this a New York pattern?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:23:56 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



Dennis P. challenges:



>Bracket this:



>'This is the only one of the fictions which has/*have caused us any trouble

>at all' (as opposed to '...one of those dictions which have...). It seems

>clear to me that 'semantic' facts can indeed 'disrupt' the over-simple

>prescriptivist rule.

>The 'only' addition demands singular agreeemnt



Let me take up the challenge. Consider:

(i) This is THE ONLY ONE [of the fictions] which HAS caused us any problems.



(ii) This is the only one [of [THE FICTIONS that HAVE caused us problems]]

          that needs to be dealt with today.



Yep, it's bracketing, a.k.a. figuring out whose subject is whose. Dennis's

example, (i), sports a negative polarity item (_any_) and a relative pronoun

(_which_, typically associated with non-restrictive relatives) that make the

bracketing, and thus the singular agreement, in (i) appropriate. In (ii),

I've changed _which_ to restrictive _that_, removed the _any_, and added

enough context to force a different bracketing and plural agreement (leaving,

of course, singular agreement on _needs_, which does agree with 'the only one'

--its subject).  Safire, eat your heart out.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:36:49 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I've never heard /sju/ in "supervisor" either, but the

issue calls to mind a discussion I recently had with

some friends of mine.

One of my friends pointed out to me on Halloween that

while everyone else in our group was using the /u/

pronunciation of "costume," I was using the /ju/

pronunciation. It led to further discussion, and I

realized that I use /ju/ in:

new/news/newspaper/knew

stew

dew (but not "do")

etc.



But I'm also not terribly consistent with these

pronunciations, with the exception of "costume."

I'm led to the belief that these are recent

acquisitions, but I have no recollection of any

change over time.



JFTR.





;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:11:03 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



It's not MY Noo York pattern--I don't have glides in any of them.

          Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

And, for what it's worth, I say "Tyoosday" but don't put a glide in

"news" or "coupon." Is this a New York pattern?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:15:19 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: bougainvillea



Does anyone in this group know what this word means?



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:20:00 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



Bethany: On the "One of the fictions that has/have..." question, I

personally come down on the side of "have" (this is one we discuss a lot in

the journalism department). It seems to me that "fictions" is the subject of

that verb, not "One" (which has its own verb later on--I've forgotten what

it is, but may be "is"?). I read it in the sense of "One of all those

fictions that have been put forth over all those centuries (or whatever)..."

But, as I said, this is one of those questions that always sparks heated

debate in the journalism department here (and elsewhere, I suspect).



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:26:07 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



> Does anyone in this group know what this word means?



it's a shrub/tree with usu. fuschia-colored leaf-like flowers.



all over the place here.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:38:29 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



Tom: I'm no horticulturist, but I believe its a viny plant, usually found

in warmer climes, with, I think, red or purple leaves. Seems to me it shows

up in a lot of Southern novels as "atmosphere"!



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:41:57 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



I might interpret the sentence a little differently:



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, E. Wayles Browne wrote:



> >...but I remember a rule from my high school (prescriptive) English class.

> >For >"One of the fictions" have/has the verb should be has because the

> >head noun (or >simple subject) is "one." The plural in the prepositional

> >phrase does not serve >as the controller for subject-verb agreement.

> And why does it not, pray tell? Let's look at a couple of simpler scenarios.

> 1) I have three cats. One of them is sitting on the porch. He is named Tiger.

> (The other two, let's say, are named Murka and Neko,

> respectively.)

> So I say: One of the cats that is sitting on the porch is named Tiger.

>



I would understand the sentence to imply that: there are cats on the porch,

some are sitting, one of the sitting cats is named Tiger.

For scenario 1 I think I would say simply "The cat that is sitting on the

porch is named Tiger."

Am I missing something?



Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:27:22 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



Shrub? Tree? In California, it's a climber that graces many a fence,

arbor and trellis with a beautiful cascade of reddish, paper-like

flowers. It's pronounced /bug[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nvij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/.





On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



> > Does anyone in this group know what this word means?

>

> it's a shrub/tree with usu. fuschia-colored leaf-like flowers.

>

> all over the place here.

>

> lynne

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

> Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

> University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

> Johannesburg 2050

> SOUTH AFRICA

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:13:25 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



It is a kind of tropical plant with interesting flowers. Often used in

tropical cities along residential streets to embellish them. I remembered it

from the French name "bougainviller" but was happily surprised to find it in

my Randomhouse dictionary too,

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene          s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago         312-702-8531

Department of Linguistics       FAX: 312-702-9861

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 12:31:15 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:57:23 -0500

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>3360 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

>----------------- Message in error (51 lines) --------------------------

> From:     Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu>

> Organization: Springville High School

> Date:     Tue, 7 Nov 1995 10:52:54 MST

> Subject:    Re: bougainvillea

>

> Thanks Lynn,

>

> It was popping up in the novel of one of my students. I hadn't a

> clue.

>

> Tom

>

> > Date sent:   Tue, 7 Nov 1995 11:26:07 -0500

> > From:      "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

> > Organization:  University of the Witwatersrand

> > Subject:    Re: bougainvillea

>

> > > Does anyone in this group know what this word means?

> >

> > it's a shrub/tree with usu. fuschia-colored leaf-like flowers.

> >

> > all over the place here.

> >

> > lynne

> >

> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> > M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

> > Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

> > University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

> > Johannesburg 2050

> > SOUTH AFRICA

> >

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 12:13:19 CST

From:  David <DROJAS1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



We've got bougainvilleas in New Orleans too.

D Rojas



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:23:17 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Natalie,



On second thought, I guess sugar doesn't apply.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:45:41 -0600

From:  Alicia Spiegel <aspiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SIU.EDU>

Subject: bougainvillea



I grew up in Miami, Florida where bougainvillea is prolific. It is a

beautiful, viney plant in various bright colors with thorns.

  alicia



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:50:15 -0600

From:  Alicia Spiegel <aspiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SIU.EDU>

Subject: bougainvilla



After going back through the 'bougainvilla' messages, I realized that the

colors mentioned were only red or purple. In Miami, there are yellow,

shrimp-color, orange, white, - some of the more cultivated horticulturists

are trying to varigate the flowers!

  alicia



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 14:05:46 -0600

From:  Cukor-Avila Patricia <pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOVE.ACS.UNT.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Does anyone in this group know what this word means?

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>

It's a beautiful vine that grows in nice warm climates (esp. in Mexico).

The flowers can be white, pink, purple.



-Tricia



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:52:30 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Does anyone in this group know what this word means?

>

The woody vine in the back yard with purple/red flowers. They're also

planted up the I-95 median in Miami. Named after Louis Antoine de

Bougainville, who brought 'em home to France after voyaging to the

tropics on an expedition. More? Different?

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 13:22:13 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I'm a /ju/ (/yu/) user in words like "news," "Tuesday," "coupon" but would

> not use it in "supervisor." I can't think of any words I would have the

> /sju/ combination in.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

Natalie,



How about sugar?



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 18:08:37 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I'm a /ju/ (/yu/) user in words like "news," "Tuesday," "coupon" but would

> not use it in "supervisor." I can't think of any words I would have the

> /sju/ combination in.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)





Natalie:



How about "assume"? I think I have it there, as a general rule. But as for

"suture," it's a puzzlement, if not a bona fide vexed question.



How about a "serious" thread on such minutiae, starting with whatever evidence

we can find in Early Mod. English, and ending with some spiffy late-twentieth

century sociolinguistic insights.



One thing's for sure: Old-time New Yorkers of ANY class distinguish between the

"dew" and the "doo" on their shoes. What it's due to is the question to which

I hope our potential thread will suggest an answer.



Suzanne



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 18:28:48 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



> Natalie:

> How about "assume"? I think I have it there, as a general rule. But as for

> "suture," it's a puzzlement, if not a bona fide vexed question.



No. They're both [u] for me. I thought about "suture" earlier today as

one that I could *almost* pronounce with [ju] but then decided that I don't.

What is it about the s words that makes them different for me? I have [ju]

in many, many other words. Cats [mju] while cows [mu]. I sometimes find

doggy [du] in the [dju] on the grass. I read the [njuz]. Today is [tjuzdI].

I sometimes remember to use the [kjupanz] I've clipped. Etc.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 20:17:26 -0500

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: E-Glyphs/Emoticons



This is a call for all tech/computer originated terms.



Emoticons, e-glyphs, whatever you call them and whatever ones you use let me

know. :-) I am an English graduate student at Michigan State University. I am

trying to compile a tech dictionary. Included in this I want to have any

terminology that you might use, or have seen used, in e-mail, snail mail, or

other postings. Please don't limit yourself to icons like ":->", any terms

from IMHO to multi-platform are valid. I am looking for any and all terms

that saw their start in the computer world. Please include an explanation of

what it means and even a copy of the context you saw it in if you have it.

Nothing needs to be excluded. Thanx for your time. I don't want to flood

ADS-L with e-glyph innundations, so feel free to send them directly to me. I

hope this is as fun for you as it is for me.



Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 7 Nov 1995 21:02:50 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I was wondering about 'insular' (for me, it CAN start out the way 'insolent'

does, but it can also have the [...syu...] in it) or 'consular'. Those seem

more likely candidates than the ones with second-syllable stress (assume,

consume), although I'm pretty sure I hear 'consyoomer' at least as often as

'consoomer'. What's interesting is that it clearly isn't a phonological or

"low-level" phonetic constraint, since I have no trouble (nor, I assoom, does

Natalie) with

    Did he [KISyu]?

    Doesn't that just [pIsyu] off?



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Nov 1995 to 7 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 62 messages totalling 1482 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. thanx for pignuts

 2. supervisor/coupon (25)

 3. bougainvillea (2)

 4. a friend of mine (was Re: supervisor/coupon)

 5. National Endowment for the Humanities

 6. No 'friend of yours' (2)

 7. "One of the x that has/have"?

 8. Pocket Stew (2)

 9. Knarly? (3)

 10. RhetORic (3)

 11. Funny Names for Newspapers (17)

 12. RhetORic -Reply

 13. funny names for newspapers (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 00:40:23 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: thanx for pignuts



Greg, what does it mean for an item to "sound regional"?



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



What I meant was, that <pignuts> sounded/appeared/seemed upon hearing it

from my father to be a likely regionalism, especially given that I had never

heard/seen/come across it before and that my dad and I grew up in different

parts of the USA and therefore use different regional items. Does this

make sense?  Nevertheless, I should have checked it out myself before

posting the list about it--again, my apologies.



Greg Pulliam

IIT-Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 01:53:14 -0500

From:  SETH <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Kathleen O'Neill wrote:



>I've never heard /sju/ in "supervisor" either, but the

>issue calls to mind a discussion I recently had with

>some friends of mine...



I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant. I argued half-heartedly

that they could have been friends of someone else, but came to accept

the hypothesis and dropped the prepositional phrase. What say you all?



Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 02:18:04 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



Bougainvillea, most commonly pronounced hereabouts boo-gan-vil'-lah,

is primarily a desert area plant popular in Mexico, south Texas etc.

as well as south Florida. Blooms best in dry season & loses blooms with

water. Since it is thorny, it gives good protection against intruders, and

can be trained to grow on arbors like a vine.



In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when treated

way, and I'll never forget one long 1953 Studebaker that crashed into

one and wound up as long as a Nash Metropolitan. They stopped using

them as median plants and removed them all. Every once in a while a

new landscape architect comes along somewhere in South Florida, and

not knowing any better has them planted in a median strip. After

explaining my true story to them, they usually see the light and have them

removed.



For years I have been searching for a yellow bougainvillea, have only

found two plants, and they both died. If anyone knows where I can find

a yellow (not gold) plant, please let me know.



Thanks,



Seth Sklarey

Coconut Grove,FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:27:11 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: a friend of mine (was Re: supervisor/coupon)



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH wrote:



> I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

> explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant. I argued half-heartedly

> that they could have been friends of someone else, but came to accept

> the hypothesis and dropped the prepositional phrase. What say you all?



I say that erudite friend of yours is missing a point. :-) Of course they

could be friends of someone else. The "of mine" would perhaps be

implicated, but if you think of Ellen Prince's familiarity scale, "a

friend" is low enough on a scale of assumed familiarity that you almost

always *have* to add "of ..." (of yours, of Steve's, of my neighbor's, of

a guy I know). Perhaps these "of ..." phrases are cancelling an

implicated "of mine," but perhaps "of mine" is just parallel with these

other "of ..." phrases, and that's why it sounds right. Perhaps it's

like, "a friend of a guy I know," which might seem (on the surface)

redundant, but ?"a friend of a guy" seems to be missing something.



Perhaps someone who's more awake than I am right now can provide a

decent analysis. :-)



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:47:59 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: National Endowment for the Humanities



 Those of us in the U.S. know that NEH has taken a major hit in funding,

which will have a major effect on possibilities for grants. So although I had

promised no further lengthy NEH announcements, I think this is worth an

exception. (Reminder: if you would like to be on the short list for long NEH

funding news, send me a private message.) - Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>

*****************************************************



               November 1995



              Major Restructuring

                 at the

         National Endowment for the Humanities



Effective December 4, 1995, the National Endowment for the Humanities

(NEH) will be redesigned to create a leaner, more focused, and flexible

agency in order to adjust to a 1996 budget reduction of almost forty

percent.



With the reconfiguration, NEH will give greater support to the activities

that best meet its guiding tenets: Activities



   --that are best done at the national level;

   --that have long-term impact;

   --that have few other sources of support;

   --that strengthen the institutional base of the humanities; and

   --that reach broad sectors of the American public.



The Endowment will focus on the following areas:



*  Supporting original scholarship

*  Preserving the American cultural heritage

*  Providing learning opportunities for the nation's teachers

*  Engaging the American public in the humanities.



Structurally, the NEH will consist of three divisions containing a total

of seven programs, and a separate office to administer challenge grants.

Following are brief descriptions of the programs (by division) with

contact information. Application deadline dates through September 1996

are contained in the Summary of NEH Programs.





Division of Preservation and Access



One program with one set of guidelines and one funding cycle,

encompassing the following:



*  Preservation and access projects (which will include support for

   education and training, regional field service programs, and

   research and demonstration projects), the stabilization and

   documentation of material culture collections, and the U.S.

   newspaper program.



Phone: 202/606-8570

Email: preservation[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us





Division of Public Programs and Enterprise



Two programs with one set of guidelines and two funding cycles

encompassing:



*  Public Programs: planning and implementation of public humanities

   activities, including museum exhibitions, library exhibitions and

   programs, and radio and television programs.



*  Enterprise: special initiatives, partnerships with other agencies

   and the private sector, trans-divisional projects, and other

   activities.



Phone: 202/606-8267

Email: publicpgms[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



Division of Research and Education



Four programs, each with its corresponding set of guidelines and funding

cycles, encompassing the following:



*  Seminars and Institutes: summer seminars and institutes for higher

   education faculty and school teachers.



*  Education Development and Demonstration: materials and model

   curricula with related professional development and trial

   implementation; e.g., teaching with technology.



*  Fellowships and Stipends: fellowships for university teachers,

   colleges teachers, and independent scholars; summer stipends; and

   HBCU faculty graduate study.



*  Research: editions, translations, basic research, archaeology,

   humanities study of science and technology, centers, international

   programs, and conferences.



Phone: 202/606-8373

Email: education[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



The NEH Office of Challenge Grants will continue to function in its

present form, offering support for educational, scholarly, preservation,

and public programs in the humanities. Grantees will be required to

raise three or four dollars for every dollar they receive from NEH.



Phone: 202/606-8309

Email: challenge[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



Public and educational programming will also continue under the energetic

direction of the fifty-six state humanities councils. For information,

contact the NEH Federal-State Partnership office.



Phone: 202/606-8254

Email: fedstate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us





           Summary of NEH Programs





Division of Preservation and Access     Deadline



* Preservation and Access Projects;     July 1, 1996

 Stabilization of Material Culture

 Collections; U.S. Newspaper Program



Contact: 202/606-8570;

     preservation[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



Division of Public Programs and Enterprise



* Museums/Historical Orgns; Libraries/    January 12, 1996

 Archives; Media (Radio/Television)



* Enterprise                 January 12, 1996

 Includes the National Conversation

 on American Pluralism and Identity

 Special Competition            November 24, 1995



Contact: 202/606-8267;

     publicpgms[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



Division of Research and Education



* Seminars and Institutes:



   National Summer Institutes

   --for Higher Education Faculty      February 1, 1996

   --for School Teachers          February 1, 1996



   Summer Seminars for College Teachers

   --Participants (summer of 1996)     March 1, 1996

   --Directors (summer of 1997)       March 1, 1996



   Summer Seminars for School Teachers

   --Participants (summer of 1996)     March 1, 1996

   --Directors (summer of 1997)       March 1, 1996



* Education Development and Demonstration:



   Humanities Focus Grants

   --in Higher Education          January 15, 1996

                       September 15, 1996



   --in Elementary/Secondary Education   January 15, 1996

                       Sept. 15, 1996



   Technology Initiative          To Be Announced





* Fellowships and Stipends:



   Fellowships

   --for University Teachers        May 1, 1996

   --for College Teachers and

     Independent Scholars         May 1, 1996



   Summer Stipends             October 1, 1996



   Faculty Graduate Study for HBCUs     March 15, 1996



* Research:



   Collaborative Research          September 1, 1996

   Centers for Advanced Study and

    International Research         October 1, 1996



Contact: 202/606-8373; education[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



Office of Challenge Grants



* Challenge Grants Program          May 1, 1996



Contact: 202/606-8309; challenge[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



               * * *



A new edition of the NEH Overview of Endowment Programs, a

brochure that describes Endowment programs, gives eligibility

requirements, and lists the state humanities council offices,

will be available in early 1996. For copies of the new Overview

or for more information about the National Endowment for the

Humanities, contact



   NEH Public Information Office

   1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Rm. 402

   Washington, D.C. 20506



   Telephone: 202/606-8400

   Email: info[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:57:24 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: No 'friend of yours'



Seth,



The 'friend of yours' who 'explained' that 'friends of mine' is 'redundant'

is a linguatwit and ought to be expunged from the list of 'friends of

yours.' I guess I might roll my eyes at 'my friends of mine' (but even

there I can imagine situations - with contrastive stress - which would make

that apparently redundant string perfectly OK).



But seriously, what us linguists ought to be doing with such metalinguistic

intrusions from nonlinguists is investigating them for the linguistic folk

belief they reveal. Here 'redundancy' is taken to be some sort of

proscribed language phenomenon, but every beginning linguistics student

(and certainly every information science student in general) knows that

built-in redundancy in a variety of systems is ordinary (and apprently

crucial). Where the folk and the scientists 'disagree' ought to strike us

as ground worthy of deepeer ethnographic investigation.



But I reckon that that may not surprise some of you that that is my opinion.



Dennis Preston



>

>I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

>explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant. I argued half-heartedly

>that they could have been friends of someone else, but came to accept

>the hypothesis and dropped the prepositional phrase. What say you all?

>

>Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:33:46 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: "One of the x that has/have"?



I knew Larry could bracket it (and show that the rule which disallows a

more 'ticklish' determination of which subject goes where is silly).

Dennis Preston



>Dennis P. challenges:

>

>>Bracket this:

>

>>'This is the only one of the fictions which has/*have caused us any trouble

>>at all' (as opposed to '...one of those dictions which have...). It seems

>>clear to me that 'semantic' facts can indeed 'disrupt' the over-simple

>>prescriptivist rule.

>>The 'only' addition demands singular agreeemnt

>

>Let me take up the challenge. Consider:

>(i) This is THE ONLY ONE [of the fictions] which HAS caused us any problems.

>

>(ii) This is the only one [of [THE FICTIONS that HAVE caused us problems]]

>          that needs to be dealt with today.

>

>Yep, it's bracketing, a.k.a. figuring out whose subject is whose. Dennis's

>example, (i), sports a negative polarity item (_any_) and a relative pronoun

>(_which_, typically associated with non-restrictive relatives) that make the

>bracketing, and thus the singular agreement, in (i) appropriate. In (ii),

>I've changed _which_ to restrictive _that_, removed the _any_, and added

>enough context to force a different bracketing and plural agreement (leaving,

>of course, singular agreement on _needs_, which does agree with 'the only one'

>--its subject).  Safire, eat your heart out.

>

>Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 07:32:47 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Of those of you who have the glide in words such as "coupon," and particularly

in syllables with a velar onset, how many of you have it in "mercury"?



Just curious,



Bruce Gelder

(bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:55:30 -0600

From:  Alicia Spiegel <aspiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SIU.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



  On 11/8 Seth Sklarey wanted to know where to find yellow bougainvilla -



    I saw many nurseries in Key West in August '95 that had yellow

ones. I bought one south of Marathon for my mother -

  Blooms for the bougainvilla can be induced by pouring one cup of salt

on the area around the base of the plant, watering it in. This 'bloom

trick' can only be used about twice a year or the plant will die.

           alicia spiegel



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 09:19:34 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



>>some friends of mine...

>

>I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

>explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant.



>Seth Sklarey



Not to jump to me own defense, but...



It seems to me that the phrase "a friend" has a

different purpose from that of "a friend of mine"

(as with "some friends (of mine)").



The inclusion of the phrase "of mine" seems to

add a dimension of colloquialism and informality.



But that doesn't entirely sum it up.



Anyone following my thinking on this one?





;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:26:46 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



HOw else would one say "mercury" but with the glide?



Curious and learning,

Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:46:17 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



>HOw else would one say "mercury" but with the glide?

>

>Curious and learning,

>Bethany

><dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu>



With a schwa and no glide. I hear it that way from time to time. Kate

Jackson (I think that's her name, anyway), the former Charlie's Angel

from the '70s TV series, says it that way in TV commercials for Lincoln

Mercury, for example. (I assume the commercials are broadcast nation

wide, but I have no way of knowing for sure.)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:51:04 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Oh. I definitely have a glide and I assumed everyone else did too.



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:52:50 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



SOrry about that last post. Without checking, I assumed I had a

private post about mercury. To repeat:



"I definitely have a glide and I assumed everyone else did too."



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 08:13:48 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I've heard it pronounced "murkry".



Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> HOw else would one say "mercury" but with the glide?

>

> Curious and learning,

> Bethany

> <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:20:22 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Pocket Stew



Some time ago, we were having a discussion about what to call that

concoction of meat, potatoes, carrots, and onions steamed up in foil on

camp outs in Boy Scouts and the like. I just ran across a name (that I

have never used) for the mess in Lynda Barry's _The Fun House_ (New York:

Harper & Row, n. d.):



"Pocket Stew" "COOKED ON A CAMPFIRE"

BURNT TIN FOIL BURNT POTATOES AND CARROTS THAT ARE STILL HARD BURNT WADS

OF NASTY RAW HAMBURGER BURNT ONIONS GIRLS CRYING



The capitalized captions are linked with arrows to a messily drawn picture

of what pocket stew looks like when opened up.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:36:48 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Don't nobody else out there say [mrkri] like I do (and all other good talkers)?

(Beth, when I among them I don't know very well, I always have the glide

like you, and, interestingly, I have no unglided [with schwa or anything

else, although I suspect it may really be a syllabic [r] rather than schwa]

form on my way to [mrkri]).



Dennis (from Louisville, where we know how to talk good, or at least used to)

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





>

>"I definitely have a glide and I assumed everyone else did too."

>

>Bethany

>dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:44:49 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Just so! See, I knew there were more good-talkers out there.



(On a little reflection after my last hasty post, I do appear to have an

unglided trisyllabic form, but it is weird - [mr+kr+ri], where the second

/r/ serves both as the vocalic segment of the middle syllable and the onset

to the final. It wasn't until I said it out loud that I realized I had it.

I guess it fits those indeterminate social situations which fall between

those which clearly demand the trisyllabic glided and those which select my

more euphonius bisyllabic form (which Allen reports at least having

heard).)



Dennis Preston



>I've heard it pronounced "murkry".

>

>Allen

>maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

>

>On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:

>

>> HOw else would one say "mercury" but with the glide?

>>

>> Curious and learning,

>> Bethany

>> <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu>

>>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:57:56 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Of course in a lot of contexts, 'some friends' is not equivalent to 'some

friends of mine'--

   Mary told Bill that some friends would be joining them for dinner.

Not even to mention Quakers. But I agree that even when 'some friends' does

seem to suggest '...of mine', the overt expression is not identical, if only

because it more concretely grounds or anchors the nominal--I agree that it

involves Prince's assumed familiarity, as Joan Cook pointed out. And of

course there's Bolinger's principle that no two expressions (that survive) are

ever entirely synonymous, so we should be prepared to assume non-equivalence

rather than complete redundancy.

 --larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 12:10:24 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



> Of those of you who have the glide in words such as "coupon," and particularly

> in syllables with a velar onset, how many of you have it in "mercury"?

>

yes, doesn't everyone? is it mercoory or merkery without it?



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:19:22 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I have it in both coupon and mercury.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 12:52:44 EST

From:  Tony Vitale <vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: No 'friend of yours'



On Nov 8, Dennis Preston wrote:

... proscribed language phenomenon, but every beginning linguistics student

(and certainly every information science student in general) knows that

built-in redundancy in a variety of systems is ordinary (and apprently [sic]

crucial). Where the folk and the scientists 'disagree' ought to strike us

as ground worthy of deepeer ethnographic i



Information theorists to a person will tell you that natural language has

approx. a 50% built-in redundancy. I used to an experiment with my students

before I escaped from higher academics (no disrepect intended) wherein I would

turn a radio on to a news broadcast and keep it on for 3 sec. and then shut it

off for 3 sec, on for 3 sec and off for 3 sec and so on. Everyone was able to

fill in the blanks of the entire nes bulletin. So the phrase "friends of mine"

simply has built in redundancy. Therefore, Seth, I would not expunge that

phrase from my normal vocabulary. I happen to agree with Dennis, it might be a

cliche but redundancy serves a valuable purpose expecially when the signal con-

tains severe channel noice such as at a noisy party or when a plane passes over-

head.



    \tony





*******************************************************************************





                Dr. Anthony J. Vitale

                Senior Consultant

                Linguistics & Speech Technology

                Digital Equipment Corporation



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:19:34 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Knarly?



I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

"gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

> trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when treated



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 10:15:37 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I say /kupan/ and /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/, but I remember during childhood consciously

changing to those pronunciations, upon correction by my parents

(independently for each word), from /kjupan/ and /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:56:23 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: RhetORic



On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable. Is this

pronunciation common up yonder or is it an attempt at saying a word read

but never heard?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:01:53 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I'm /kupan/ and /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/.



I keep hearing 'ae k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] for the Honda Acura.



beth simo





















n

dept of english and linguistics

indiana university - purdue university

fort wayne , IN



but I'm a des moines iowa speaker



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:03:50 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



> On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

> heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

> about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable. Is this

> pronunciation common up yonder or is it an attempt at saying a word read

> but never heard?



i've never lived in wisconsin, but my guess is that the guy knew the

word "rhetorical" and was basing the pronunciation on that.



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:02:35 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Funny Names for Newspapers



While I'm on the subject on Rush Limbaugh, Rush was angry at a liberal

reporterette (caller's word) from the Atlanta Urinal/Constipation

(Journal/Constitution).



Our local paper, the Union-Recorder, is often dubbed the Onion Disorder.

In West Chester, PA, I heard the Daily Local News called the Daily Lack of

News. My graduate student says that the Sandersville Progress is called

the Regression.



Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the country.

Please post them. I could use a laugh. The college is giving me a

paperweight today for 15 years of service.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:07:54 -0600

From:  Christopher Mack <MACKCD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WP.DHSS.STATE.WI.US>

Subject: RhetORic -Reply



Though not actually a _native_ Wisconsiner, I've never heard this

pronunciation. (Maybe it's more a characteristic of being a Rush fan? ;)

We *do* say, "Dem Packers is playin like a buncha old wimmin,"

however.



>>> Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU> 11/08/95

12:56pm >>>

On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable. Is this

pronunciation common up yonder or is it an attempt at saying a word

read but never heard?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 13:11:11 CST

From:  Lisa Pogoff <POGOFFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



>Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the country.

>Please post them. I could use a laugh. The college is giving me a

>paperweight today for 15 years of service.



>Wayne Glowka



Here we call the StarTribune the Star Buffoon.







Lisa Pogoff

Community Relations Coordinator

Site Assessment and Consultation Unit

Minnesota Department of Health

Phone 612/215-0916

Fax 612/215-0975

Internet: lisa.pogoff[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]health.state.mn.us

Work Days: M-Th



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:19:21 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



That's funny. Yesterday I heard an interview on NPR's "All Things

Considered" with a participant in the recent African American Million-Man

March in Washington. Unfortunately I don't remember where the interviewee

was from, but he spoke several times about toning down, or not getting

carried away by, the "rhetic."



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

> heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

> about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable. Is this

> pronunciation common up yonder or is it an attempt at saying a word read

> but never heard?

>

>

> Wayne Glowka

> Professor of English

> Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

> Georgia College

> Milledgeville, GA 31061

> 912-453-4222

> wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 11:23:14 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



The local McMinnville (Oregon) paper is named the News-Register but is

better known as the News Resister.



Peter McGraw



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:34:23 -0500

From:  "Winfield, Laurie" <lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RINET.HUNTON.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



The Richmond (Va.) Times-Dispatch is often called the Richmond Times-Despair

by readers who yearn for more objective reporting.



Alice

 ----------

From: American Dialect Society

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

Subject: Funny Names for Newspapers

Date: Wednesday, November 08, 1995 2:12PM



While I'm on the subject on Rush Limbaugh, Rush was angry at a liberal

reporterette (caller's word) from the Atlanta Urinal/Constipation

(Journal/Constitution).



Our local paper, the Union-Recorder, is often dubbed the Onion Disorder.

In West Chester, PA, I heard the Daily Local News called the Daily Lack of

News. My graduate student says that the Sandersville Progress is called

the Regression.



Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the country.

Please post them. I could use a laugh. The college is giving me a

paperweight today for 15 years of service.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:43:35 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



This word is difficult in that it is normally restricted to oral use.

Although a preceived spelling may be present with its usage, I cannot

say for certain whether the spelling has truly been standardized.



Tom



> I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

> "gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

>

> On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>

> > In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

> > trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when treated

>



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:50:30 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



When I was in Columbia, MO, the University of MO's newspaper for its

J-school was called the Missourian. We, however, called it the

Manurian.

Greg Pulliam

HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:04:09 -0500

From:  Bob Foster <AmOptNews[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



The St. Louis Post Dispatch is the Post-Disgrace.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:08:42 -0500

From:  Aaron Drews <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



While I was abroad, all I could get was USA two days ago. Funnily

enough, that's all I can get (from Gannet) when I'm Stateside, too.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:11:27 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



When I worked at the Marion (Ind.) Chronicle-Tribune, we referred to our

competitor in Wabash, The Wabash Plain Dealer, as the "Grain Stealer." (Of

course, our own loyal readers sometimes called us the "Cornicle-Tribune.")

And, here in Franklin, served by the Johnson County Daily Journal, there are

those who change the last word to "Urinal," which is probably standard for

any paper with that name.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:19:22 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pocket Stew



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> Some time ago, we were having a discussion about what to call that

> concoction of meat, potatoes, carrots, and onions steamed up in foil on

> camp outs in Boy Scouts and the like. I just ran across a name (that I

> have never used) for the mess in Lynda Barry's _The Fun House_ (New York:

> Harper & Row, n. d.):

Wayne,



We called them foil-packs, but I think Lynda Barry's description is much

more apt.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:25:17 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



Wayne,



Here in NC, the Raleigh paper, a very old and veneratable publication, is

called the News and Observer, but friends and enemies call it the News

and Disturber.



The Greensboro paper is the News and Record, which came about with the

merging of the morning and afternoon papers about ten or so years ago.

EVERYONE calls it the News and Fishrag.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:29:03 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:



> I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

> "gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

Dan,



I remember seeing it in a National Lampoon around 1977-78; the spelling

was gnarly.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:28:35 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



Deseret News -> Deserted News, Desperate News (Salt Lake City)

Salt Lake Tribune -> Salt Lake Trombone

Daily Universe -> Daily Unifarce (BYU student newspaper)



-Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:42:00 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



The local Austin American-Statesman is known in some circles as the

Austin Real Estatesman because of their relentless boosting of all that

is dear to local land developers. About half the city is pleased with said

boosting and half is enraged by it.



Texas journalists refer to the Dallas Morning Snooze (Morning News, and

it is pretty dull) and the Fort Worth Startlegram (Star-Telegram).



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:02:43 EST

From:  Bruce Southard <ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Another note on /yu/: as I was listening to the local /nyuz/ last night,

the announcer referred to an event starting at /nyun/ today. I suspect

that those announcers who have substituted /nyuz/ for their original

/nuz/ are now uncertain about where /Cyu/ should occur.





Regards,



Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:10:41 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



> Of those of you who have the glide in words such as "coupon," and particularly

> in syllables with a velar onset, how many of you have it in "mercury"?



I have it.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 17:15:30 -0500

From:  Fraser Sutherland <frasers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]THE-WIRE.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



In Canada the Halifax Chronicle-Herald is sometimes called the Halifax

Comical Herald; in Toronto the Globe and Mail is known variously as The

Grope and Fail or The Mop and Pail



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:02:44 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



>I say /kupan/ and /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/, but I remember during childhood consciously

>changing to those pronunciations, upon correction by my parents

>(independently for each word), from /kjupan/ and /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/.

>

>Peter McGraw

>Linfield College

>McMinnville, OR



I was kind of hoping to get at least one response delving into the

sociolinguistic aspects of the glide phenomenon. I have a sense (without

supporting data to back it up) that in several of the words that have a glide

in some dialects but that lack it in others, the glide is sociolinguistically

motivated at least as much as it is phonologically motivated. Consider,

for example, the nyuz/nu:z pair (for "news"), or the fIgy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r/fIgg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r pair

(for "figure"). I find that most people I listen to (even Dan Rather)

omit the glide in "figure" (the verb, not the noun), even though most of

them swear up and down that it just ain't so. There seems to be a perception

(around here, at least) that people who omit the glide in "figure" and "news"

are socially inferior to those who pronounce it, but that those who include

the glide in "coupon" and even "mercury" are socially inferior somehow.



Or am I just byarking up the wrong tree?



-Bruce

(bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)



P.S. "Here" is the Salt Lake City area.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 17:24:09 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



 There seems to be a perception

> (around here, at least) that people who omit the glide in "figure" and "news"

> are socially inferior to those who pronounce it, but that those who include

> the glide in "coupon" and even "mercury" are socially inferior somehow.



to my mind, anyone who says things the way i don't say them is

socially inferior, and i've got no glide in news but do have it in

the rest. i think the attitudes are just regionocentric.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 17:25:32 -0400

From:  Jeutonne Brewer <BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I think we have several different categories of words. One category includes words in which everyone



uses /yu/ (or /ju/. I always use /yu/ with these words:



music



mercury







Another category is probably special because the words are onomatopoetic:



meow and moo



I always say /myiau/. If I remember correctly from her note, Natalie does not use /yu/. I say /mu/ not



/myu/.







The third category (and I'm sure there must be subcategories) includes



coupon, assume, suture, dew, and do



I use /yu/ only with coupon. In fact I think that may be the only word in which I use that



pronunciation, with the exception of the special categories I mentioned.







My family had good way of distinguishing between dog "doo" and the verb "do." The first was



always the reduplicated do-do (or doo-doo). No problem. Of course, context and meaning would



typically prevent any confusion about the meaning of the two words.







By the way, sorry I forgot to change the "soft" returns to "hard" returns in my previous messages. I



hate text lines that extend beyond the edge of the screen and into cyberspace.



*********************************************************************



* Jeutonne P. Brewer BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU            *



* Department of English                      *



* U of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, NC 27412     *



*********************************************************************







------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:39:48 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



> I always say /myiau/. If I remember correctly from her note, Natalie does not use /yu/. I say /mu/ not



If I'm talking about cows, I don't use /yu/. If I'm talking about cats,

I do. Surely the difference is there -- otherwise we wouldn't know whether

it was a cat or a cow if it walked up behind us and spoke...

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:51:56 -0600

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



When I was an undergraduate at Cornell, the local ("townie") newspaper

--the Ithaca Journal--was dubbed the "Ithaca Urinal."



Cynthia Bernstein

Dept. of English

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203





On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Winfield, Laurie wrote:



> The Richmond (Va.) Times-Dispatch is often called the Richmond Times-Despair

> by readers who yearn for more objective reporting.

>

> Alice

> ----------

> From: American Dialect Society

> To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

> Subject: Funny Names for Newspapers

> Date: Wednesday, November 08, 1995 2:12PM

>

> While I'm on the subject on Rush Limbaugh, Rush was angry at a liberal

> reporterette (caller's word) from the Atlanta Urinal/Constipation

> (Journal/Constitution).

>

> Our local paper, the Union-Recorder, is often dubbed the Onion Disorder.

> In West Chester, PA, I heard the Daily Local News called the Daily Lack of

> News. My graduate student says that the Sandersville Progress is called

> the Regression.

>

> Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the country.

> Please post them. I could use a laugh. The college is giving me a

> paperweight today for 15 years of service.

>

>

> Wayne Glowka

> Professor of English

> Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

> Georgia College

> Milledgeville, GA 31061

> 912-453-4222

> wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:49:25 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Which Mercury are we talking about?



For myself, when I refer to the chemical element mercury, I think I always

pronounce it with the glide.



When referring to Lincoln-Mercury, it's generally glideless, I think.



For the planet, 50-50.



For that guy with wings on his ankles, I've no idea, I never talk about him.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 18:01:53 EST

From:  Patricia Kuhlman <GAKBC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.BITNET>

Subject: Funny Names for Newspapers



  I've heard the "Chronicle of Higher Education" called the

"Barnacle of Higher Education. I'v

  I've also heard the motto of the New York Times reversed from

"all the news that's fit to print" to "all the news that's print

to fit".



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 18:17:12 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Do you suppose that the /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/ or /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkri/ speakers are at all influenced

by the TV ads with the actress who pitches a very expensive /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkri?/



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 16:16:21 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH wrote:



> I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

> explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant. I argued half-heartedly

> that they could have been friends of someone else, but came to accept

> the hypothesis and dropped the prepositional phrase. What say you all?



I'd say that your erudite friend is more than a bit anal. BTW, how many

of you guys pronounce erudite (air-you-dite)? Is this more correct than

(air-oo-dite)? Coorious.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 15:34:45 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I think Bruce has hit the nail on the head about the sociolinguistic

aspect of /u/ vs. /ju/. I strongly suspect that some of the responses

we've seen would have to be amended if the responders could manage to

catch themselves off-guard. I suspect we resort to a lot of spelling

pronunciations in an effort to bring consistency to the preceived lack of

correspondence between pronunciation and orthography here, and that this

eventually leads to hypercorrections like /njun/. I defy anyone to

use /ju/ in all applicable words in the sentence "I assume there was no

news of the supervisor this noon" without laughing.



Peter McGraw



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 18:46:23 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Patricia Kuhlman wrote:



>  I've also heard the motto of the New York Times reversed from

> "all the news that's fit to print" to "all the news that's print

> to fit".



In Li'l Abner, the Slobovian newspaper's motto is "All we print is news

that fits."



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 19:54:35 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



In Salida Colorado the paper is called The Mountain Mail. Everyone calls

it the Mountain Snail.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:09:57 -0500

From:  Charity Stafford <cls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



The Boston Globe is commonly called The Glob.



(Somewhat related: a local supermarket chain called Purity Supreme

is often calle Poverty Supreme - at least in the circles I hang out

in.)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:53:27 EST

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: funny names for newspapers



San Francisco Chronicle -> Comical



arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:53:23 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: funny names for newspapers



In Annapolis, Maryland, the Evening Capital is the Evening Crapital.



--Joan



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 23:41:07 -0500

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: funny names for newspapers



At least one person I know in LaGrande, Oregon, refers to the local rag,

The Observer, as "The Disturber".



-- H. Stephen Straight



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Nov 1995 to 8 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 50 messages totalling 1132 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. supervisor/coupon/mercury

 2. Knarly? (12)

 3. RhetORic (3)

 4. Funny Names for Newspapers (7)

 5. Newspaper slogans

 6. No 'friend of yours' (2)

 7. knarly ?

 8. supervisor/coupon (4)

 9. Hold down the forte (2)

 10. Back to "Bite me" (2)

 11. news that's fit

 12. "photi"? (2)

 13. Bougainvilla (2)

 14. bougainvillea (3)

 15. funny names for newspapers

 16. photi (2)

 17. newspaper names

 18. "in like flynn" (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:19:07 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon/mercury



>With a schwa and no glide. I hear it that way from time to time. Kate

>Jackson (I think that's her name, anyway), the former Charlie's Angel

>from the '70s TV series, says it that way in TV commercials for Lincoln

>Mercury, for example. (I assume the commercials are broadcast nation

>wide, but I have no way of knowing for sure.)



This doesn't surprise me so much since I first heard someone in a Pledge (I

think) commercial years ago say reguhluhr.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 00:28:23 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



>I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

>"gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

>

>On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>

>> In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

>> trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when treated

>

>



I used to be a champion speller. I should plunge a gnife into my heart.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 00:32:18 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



Lynne wrote:

>

>i've never lived in wisconsin, but my guess is that the guy knew the

>word "rhetorical" and was basing the pronunciation on that.



Is one who engages in rhetoric a rhetor? And is the listener a rhetee?



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:19:13 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



Though it's not a newspaper, when I worked for Random House, there were

folks who called it Rancid Horse.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 01:29:20 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Newspaper slogans



>On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Patricia Kuhlman wrote:

>

>>  I've also heard the motto of the New York Times reversed from

>> "all the news that's fit to print" to "all the news that's print

>> to fit".



Joan wrote:

>

>In Li'l Abner, the Slobovian newspaper's motto is "All we print is news

>that fits."



Back when I had newspapers my slogans were:



"All the news that's print to fit the page." and

  "All we print is news to us"



and I'd often quote "Freedom of the press belongs to the person who owns one."

although I forget the source.



SETH SKLAREY, former editor

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 02:21:03 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: No 'friend of yours'



To: Dennis, Kathleen, Tony & Larry and anyone else I missed when the

65 E-mail messages I received tonite blew out my memory. THANKS,

I agree with all of you.



The "friend" is a former friend. Not because I feel friends don't let

friends correct their grammar, but because I never have had time for

incorrect information. Ignorance is blitzed.



I have always believed that the English language is constantly changing &

evolving, and what is the rule today is the exception tomorrow, and commmon

usage thereafter until stilted, archaic, arcane and ancient. If it works,

if it is understood, if people accept it, then so be it.



My sister, who was a Phi Beta Kappa (they must have been desperate that year)

took great delight in correcting people. One of her favorites was:

"It's my forte," which she insisted was pronounced (fort) and not (fortay).

 (Fortay) is an Italian musical term.

 She had no friends.



For all those English teachers and preachers we've all had who took the rules

a bit too rigidly, may they look themselves in the mirror and say, to

paraphrase POGO:

"I've met the enemy and it's me."



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, Florida







>Seth,

>

>The 'friend of yours' who 'explained' that 'friends of mine' is 'redundant'

>is a linguatwit and ought to be expunged from the list of 'friends of

>yours.' I guess I might roll my eyes at 'my friends of mine' (but even

>there I can imagine situations - with contrastive stress - which would make

>that apparently redundant string perfectly OK).

>

>But seriously, what us linguists ought to be doing with such metalinguistic

>intrusions from nonlinguists is investigating them for the linguistic folk

>belief they reveal. Here 'redundancy' is taken to be some sort of

>proscribed language phenomenon, but every beginning linguistics student

>(and certainly every information science student in general) knows that

>built-in redundancy in a variety of systems is ordinary (and apprently

>crucial). Where the folk and the scientists 'disagree' ought to strike us

>as ground worthy of deepeer ethnographic investigation.

>

>But I reckon that that may not surprise some of you that that is my opinion.

>

>Dennis Preston

>

>>

>>I often used the phrase "friends of mine" until an erudite friend

>>explained that "of mine" made the phrase redundant. I argued half-heartedly

>>that they could have been friends of someone else, but came to accept

>>the hypothesis and dropped the prepositional phrase. What say you all?

>>

>>Seth Sklarey

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:46:00 -0800

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: knarly ?



See Webster's:

     "gnarly  adj (1829): GNARLED"





* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

International Service for National       Phone: 31 (70) 349-6107

  Agricultural Research (ISNAR)       Fax:  31 (70) 381-9677

The Hague, The Netherlands         E-mail: k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:22:07 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



>>Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the country.

>>Please post them. I could use a laugh. The college is giving me a

>>paperweight today for 15 years of service.

>

>>Wayne Glowka

>

>Here we call the StarTribune the Star Buffoon.

>

>

We used to call the Michigan State paper (the State News) the State Snooze.



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:29:01 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



"Gnarly" comes from "gnarled," which, according to Webster's Third, means

"warped or twisted with or as if with gnarls." While "gnarly" may be used

in popular speech to mean both "disgusting" and "cool" (I think), there is

certainly a standard spelling for it.



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz





>This word is difficult in that it is normally restricted to oral use.

>Although a preceived spelling may be present with its usage, I cannot

>say for certain whether the spelling has truly been standardized.

>

>Tom

>

>> I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

>> "gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

>>

>> On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>>

>> > In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

>> > trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when

>>treate

>d

>>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 06:29:57 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



>  I've heard the "Chronicle of Higher Education" called the

> "Barnacle of Higher Education. I'v



i call it "the chronical of higher edification", but sometimes just

"the chronic."



searchin' them classifieds,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 07:55:20 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



Sorry Beth, my pronunciation of this predates TV.

Dennis (Old-Timer) Preston from Louisville



>Do you suppose that the /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ri/ or /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkri/ speakers are at all influenced

>by the TV ads with the actress who pitches a very expensive /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rkri?/

>

>beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:14:35 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:18:19 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



>Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!

>

>Bethany

>dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

>



Many years ago the question was posed how do you pronounce "photi?"



The answer of course is (fish), taking the ph from phonograph, the o

from women, and the ti from action.



Segth



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:29:25 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



>Lynne wrote:

>>

>>i've never lived in wisconsin, but my guess is that the guy knew the

>>word "rhetorical" and was basing the pronunciation on that.

>

>Is one who engages in rhetoric a rhetor? And is the listener a rhetee?

>

>Seth



Well, in Greek a rhetor is one who engages in rhetoric, yes, as a Latin

orator engages in what we now render as oratory.



The listener is the victim.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:34:27 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



The version I heard firt was "ghoti" (G.B.Shaw)--'gh' as if words like

'enough' etc.



Bethagny

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:54:53 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: No 'friend of yours'



Seth writes:



----------------------------Original message----------------------------





>My sister, who was a Phi Beta Kappa (they must have been desperate that year)

>took great delight in correcting people. One of her favorites was:

>"It's my forte," which she insisted was pronounced (fort) and not (fortay).

> (Fortay) is an Italian musical term.

> She had no friends.



No need to ask Phi Beta Kappa to reclaim your sister's award. In fact,

etymologically speaking, your sister was right. The expression you cite

is a calque on the French "C'est mon fort" (it's/that's my strong point)

and has no direct connection with the Italian 'forte', although the latter is

obviously a cognate of Fr. _fort_, both from Lat. _fortis_. Somewhere along

the way, the spelling was changed to _forte_, perhaps through a folk etymology

with the more familiar musical term.

  On the other hand, both Webster's and the OED give _knarled_ as a now

obsolete variant of _gnarled_, so maybe _knarly_ is historically correct (or

at least attestable).



   Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:24:00 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Hold down the forte



>  On the other hand, both Webster's and the OED give _knarled_ as a now

>obsolete variant of _gnarled_, so maybe _knarly_ is historically correct (or

>at least attestable).

>

>   Larry



Well, at least partial vindication for my spelling abilities. Obsolete always

counted when I played Scrabble.



I really enjoy your postings, replies and retorts and in my humble opinion you

seem to be the most erudite on the list, which, coupled with a great sense

of humor

makes things even more enjoyable. Even though I never could even diagram a

sentence, I always had a gestalt sense of write & wrong. As a newspaper editor

I took editorial license, and now as I am approaching a curmudgeonly 51 years

on Sunday I say and write it as I please, but I still like to follow the

McNaughton Rule (a legal definition of sanity as being able to tell right from

wrong). I don't know what the name of the rule is for being able to tell

right from left.



Keep it up,



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, Florida



11-9-95



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 06:41:10 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King" <jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



>>>Surely, there are other funny monickers for papers around the

country.



Not terribly clever, but The Daily Oklahoman in Oklahoma City is often

called The Daily Disappointment, at least by those who don't appreciate

it's haphazard news coverage and right-wing rantings. I imagine the

same is true of a lot of "Daily X" papers.



JRKing



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 06:53:07 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Back to "Bite me"



This offers no explanation to the phrase "Bite me", but does show its

acceptance. In today's Ziggy cartoon, for those of you unfortunate to have it

carried in your local newspaper, Ziggy is shown sitting in front of a computer

terminal with "Byte Me" in large letters displayed on the screen.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:20:56 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



I get a zine called the "Knarley Knews" (sic), which the publisher

named after a Dungeons and Dragons character he used to play (I know,

I know), and it's been looking vaguely wrong for a while, probably

because of "gnarly" (though the two differences in spelling lead me

to think he's not thinking of the word gnarly at all).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:02:40 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: news that's fit



When I did work for the ATA Chronicle (ATA is the American Translators

Association; its international parent organization is FIT, the federation

internationale des traducteurs), the Chronicle had a regular column

reporting FIT news called "All the FIT that's news to print."



-Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:09:57 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Back to "Bite me"



>This offers no explanation to the phrase "Bite me", but does show its

>acceptance. In today's Ziggy cartoon, for those of you unfortunate to have it

>carried in your local newspaper, Ziggy is shown sitting in front of a computer

>terminal with "Byte Me" in large letters displayed on the screen.

>

>-- Jim

>

Here in La La land where I reside, the Miami Herald (which is so hated by

thinking locals it doesn't even have a funny name), has bowed so low to

political correctness that it doesn't carry ANY macho cartoon strips of

note, and even cancelled Callahan. I long for the days of Dick Tracy,

the Phantom, Li'l Abner & Pogo (who I barely understood).



My all time favorites were Vaughn Bode (is he still alive?) who appeared

in the East Village Other and Gothic Blimp Works, and R. Crumb the all-time

master about whom they have recently done a great, thought provoking movie

concerning the thread of family insanity.



Is there any way we could pass around cartoons?



---



I also long for the complete set of Amos & Andy video tapes, which someone

has locked in a vault. The complete three stooges would be a nice birthday

or Christmas present too.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, Florida



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:12:11 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



>I get a zine called the "Knarley Knews" (sic), which the publisher

>named after a Dungeons and Dragons character he used to play (I know,

>I know), and it's been looking vaguely wrong for a while, probably

>because of "gnarly" (though the two differences in spelling lead me

>to think he's not thinking of the word gnarly at all).

>

>Vicki Rosenzweig

>vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

>New York, NY

>



Are water buffalo gnearly gnus?



SETH



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:09:32 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



Several decades ago Mad Magazine did a parody of the New York Times with

the motto "All the news that fits, we print."

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Joan C. Cook wrote:



> On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Patricia Kuhlman wrote:

>

> >  I've also heard the motto of the New York Times reversed from

> > "all the news that's fit to print" to "all the news that's print

> > to fit".

>

> In Li'l Abner, the Slobovian newspaper's motto is "All we print is news

> that fits."

>

> --Joan

>

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

> Department of Linguistics                more important

> Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

> Washington, D.C., USA

> cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:29:08 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



With all the fun with the NY Times motto, no one has a nickname for the

paper itself?



The Mad Magazine reference jogged my worthless memory and caused me to

remember a cartoon in Mad Magazine from say 30 years ago in which some

long-winded upper-middle-class types were discussing the relative worth of

various Sunday newspapers. As the conversation wore on, it became obvious

that the people were not discussing the intellectual merits of the

newspapers but the merits of the newspapers as paper for dog elimination.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:31:06 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



Is "mullet wrapper" a term with national circulation?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:42:35 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



As long as we're talking sociolinguistic judgements, my wife refers to

the lect that would use /ju/ in all the words of the last sentence below

by the technical linguistics phrase "poker-up-the-ass English" -- thus

showing that sociolinguistic judgements are not ALWAYS against just

lower-class dialects.



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



> I think Bruce has hit the nail on the head about the sociolinguistic

> aspect of /u/ vs. /ju/. ... I defy anyone to

> use /ju/ in all applicable words in the sentence "I assume there was no

> news of the supervisor this noon" without laughing.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:59:18 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



I know I'm the one who started this thread one way, but now I MUST

suggest another direction, my wife's intuition that the word as meaning

'cool' is really 'narly' and is merely homophonous with 'gnarly'.



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Jenny Becker wrote:



> "Gnarly" comes from "gnarled," which, according to Webster's Third, means

> "warped or twisted with or as if with gnarls." While "gnarly" may be used

> in popular speech to mean both "disgusting" and "cool" (I think), there is

> certainly a standard spelling for it.

>

> Jenny Becker

> beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz

>

>

> >This word is difficult in that it is normally restricted to oral use.

> >Although a preceived spelling may be present with its usage, I cannot

> >say for certain whether the spelling has truly been standardized.

> >

> >Tom

> >

> >> I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

> >> "gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

> >>

> >> On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

> >>

> >> > In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

> >> > trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when

> >>treate

> >d

> >>

> >

> >Tom Uharriet

> >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:02:20 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



PS -- my wife also is of the opinion that looking up Valley Girl Talk in

Webster's is a case of misplaced authority.



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Jenny Becker wrote:



> "Gnarly" comes from "gnarled," which, according to Webster's Third, means

> "warped or twisted with or as if with gnarls." While "gnarly" may be used

> in popular speech to mean both "disgusting" and "cool" (I think), there is

> certainly a standard spelling for it.

>

> Jenny Becker

> beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz

>

>

> >This word is difficult in that it is normally restricted to oral use.

> >Although a preceived spelling may be present with its usage, I cannot

> >say for certain whether the spelling has truly been standardized.

> >

> >Tom

> >

> >> I know it's too soon for prescriptivism here, but isn't it usually spelt

> >> "gnarly"? Funny what a history of silent letters can do!

> >>

> >> On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

> >>

> >> > In Golden Beach, Florida they used to have them on the median strip, and

> >> > trimmed them down all the time. It is a very hard, knarly plant when

> >>treate

> >d

> >>

> >

> >Tom Uharriet

> >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:04:29 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: "photi"?



Many years ago it was posed to me as "ghoti" with the 'gh' of 'laugh'.



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> >Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!

> >

> >Bethany

> >dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

> >

>

> Many years ago the question was posed how do you pronounce "photi?"

>

> The answer of course is (fish), taking the ph from phonograph, the o

> from women, and the ti from action.

>

> Segth

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 09:24:01 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: "photi"?



I first heard it from my high school Latin teacher, as "ghotip," with the

p of pneumonia.



Peter





On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:



> Many years ago it was posed to me as "ghoti" with the 'gh' of 'laugh'.

>

> On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>

> > >Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!

> > >

> > >Bethany

> > >dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

> > >

> >

> > Many years ago the question was posed how do you pronounce "photi?"

> >

> > The answer of course is (fish), taking the ph from phonograph, the o

> > from women, and the ti from action.

> >

> > Segth

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 12:29:21 EST

From:  Tony Vitale <vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Bougainvilla



This is from a friend who is a professional botanist:



 Bougainvilla is a South American shrub in the Nyctaginaceae family (four

o'clock or Marvel-of-Peru). It was named after a French navigator :(De

Bougainville, 1729-1811). I found the info in Bailey's, The Standard

Cyclopedia of Horticulture vol. 1, MacMillan Co., NY 1927.



    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:45:32 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:



> As long as we're talking sociolinguistic judgements, my wife refers to

> the lect that would use /ju/ in all the words of the last sentence below

> by the technical linguistics phrase "poker-up-the-ass English" -- thus

> showing that sociolinguistic judgements are not ALWAYS against just

> lower-class dialects.



And I would refer it as "Received British Pronunication." Perhaps it's

the association with the RP liquid u that gives such pronunciations in

America a social lift, as well as a "poker-up-the-ass" quality.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:52:40 -0400

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: supervisor/coupon



I'll say! Us Louisville kids used 'broomstick' rather than 'poker' but with

the same disdain of the high-falutin'.

Dennis Preston



As long as we're talking sociolinguistic judgements, my wife refers to

>the lect that would use /ju/ in all the words of the last sentence below

>by the technical linguistics phrase "poker-up-the-ass English" -- thus

>showing that sociolinguistic judgements are not ALWAYS against just

>lower-class dialects.

>

>On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:

>

>> I think Bruce has hit the nail on the head about the sociolinguistic

>> aspect of /u/ vs. /ju/. ... I defy anyone to

>> use /ju/ in all applicable words in the sentence "I assume there was no

>> news of the supervisor this noon" without laughing.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 12:28:26 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



On Tue, 7 Nov 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:

>

> Does anyone in this group know what this word means?

>

Why not just look it up in a dictionary?



If you are using a Spanish dictionary, though, you will find it spelled

with an "m" (at est that is the way that they spell it in Mexico).



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:56:33 -0800

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro <david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: funny names for newspapers



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995 21:53, Arnold Zwicky writes:



> San Francisco Chronicle -> Comical



Houston Chronicle, too. (The Houston Chronicle ran a not-too-friendly

series on the Internet a couple years back, so abuse of that paper was

common in a number of newsgroups for a while.)



The Daily Titan, the student paper at California State University,

Fullerton, is widely called the Daily Titanic; a parody version (which

ran only one or two issues) called itself the Titanic, too.



The Guardian (Manchester, England) is apparently known for making goofs

in its typesetting; at any rate, it is often called the Grauniad.



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:09:17 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



Last night, David Letterman asked someone how to spell gnarly.

Answer: With a "G."





> Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!

>

> Bethany

> dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

>



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:17:03 -0600

From:  Dorothy Wurster <dwurster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSD.UWM.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



I am a native Wisconsinite and have not heard that particular

pronunciation. Emphasis is generally on the first syllable. Perhaps this

person needed additional attention.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:38:40 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



> > "Gnarly" comes from "gnarled," which, according to Webster's Third, means

> > "warped or twisted with or as if with gnarls." While "gnarly" may be used

> > in popular speech to mean both "disgusting" and "cool" (I think), there is

> > certainly a standard spelling for it.

> >

> > Jenny Becker



Thanks Jenny,

With the new usage, I had forgotten the old!

Tom



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:55:57 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



> Why not just look it up in a dictionary?



It was not in my class set of dictionaries. Not having a clue of

what it meant, I thought it was more specialized. I could have

driven a few miles to the closest OED, but am glad that I didn't.

These responses were very interesting. After the first few

responses, I thought I had a good understanding of the plant. Now,

from all of the responses that followed, we all know quite a bit

more. I found it particularly interesting how the same word meant

such different things to different people. Such is language!



Thank you all for your responses. I have printed all of them for my

student who brought me the question. He too was very impressed with

your answers.



Thanks again,



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:59:03 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: photi



> Many years ago the question was posed how do you pronounce "photi?"

>

> The answer of course is (fish), taking the ph from phonograph, the o

> from women, and the ti from action.

>

> Segth



I'm trying to remember. Did that question come from Bernard Shaw?



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 15:09:38 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: newspaper names



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 09-Nov-1995 03:07pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: newspaper names





In Athens Ohio the daily [community, non-student] paper is The Messenger, known

affectionately as "The Mess."



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs







Received: 09-Nov-1995 03:09pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:43:49 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: photi



Yes, from Shaw, and it's ghoti, not photi, I believe.



--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 17:43:39 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: bougainvillea



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:

>

> > Why not just look it up in a dictionary?

>

> It was not in my class set of dictionaries.



It was in the first three desk dilctionaries that I looked at. You need

to get better "class . . . dictionaries"!



> I could have driven a few miles to the closest OED, but am glad that I didn't.



I recommend the boxed micro version of the OED. It is cheap; in fact, I

got mine free when I joined soe book club. It is quite helpful.



> These responses were very interesting. After the first few

> responses, I thought I had a good understanding of the plant. Now,

> from all of the responses that followed, we all know quite a bit

> more. I found it particularly interesting how the same word meant

> such different things to different people. Such is language!



Or rather maybe "such is people."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 16:55:12 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Bougainvilla



I must've read the original message wrongly. I thought the original

poster was asking what the word "meant" (i.e., in its original language

morphemes?) rather than what it was.



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Tony Vitale wrote:



> This is from a friend who is a professional botanist:

>

> Bougainvilla is a South American shrub in the Nyctaginaceae family (four

> o'clock or Marvel-of-Peru). It was named after a French navigator :(De

> Bougainville, 1729-1811). I found the info in Bailey's, The Standard

> Cyclopedia of Horticulture vol. 1, MacMillan Co., NY 1927.

>

>     \tony

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 20:37:30 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hold down the forte



My students generally agree that this list is weird. The recent postings seem

to confirm that. They do enjoy (with or without object), and postings do

generate interesting classroom dialogue.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 20:47:26 EST

From:  Tony Vitale <vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



Seth:

    I think Shaw's example was "ghoti" with gh from rough. What GBS did

not understand was that "gh" does not occur in initial position "o" does occur

in medial position as in "women" GBS's example, and "ti" of nation does not

occur in final position.



    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 23:18:14 -0500

From:  Elaine Green <elaineg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: "in like flynn"



    Does anyone know what "in like flynn" actually means, and/or

where it originated? Here in Athens, we have a local band named In Like

Flynn. So when some guy in a bar told me "You're in like flynn," I

thought it was just a unique version of "Hey baby, what's your sign?".

At the time I didn't really know what he meant; I just figured that maybe

he was suggesting I looked like someone who listened to that band. But

then the other night my Mother used the phrase in our phone

conversation, and I know she doesn't listen to that band!





Elaine Green

Linguistic Atlas Project

The University of Georgia



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 23:22:28 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



>    Does anyone know what "in like flynn" actually means, and/or

>where it originated? Here in Athens, we have a local band named In Like

>Flynn. So when some guy in a bar told me "You're in like flynn," I

>thought it was just a unique version of "Hey baby, what's your sign?".

>At the time I didn't really know what he meant; I just figured that maybe

>he was suggesting I looked like someone who listened to that band. But

>then the other night my Mother used the phrase in our phone

>conversation, and I know she doesn't listen to that band!

>

>

>Elaine Green

>Linguistic Atlas Project

>The University of Georgia

>

Erroll Flynn, a dashing, popular movie star of the 40's and early 50's was

involved

with a 16 year old named Beverly Aadland. The In Like Flynn refers to his

alleged sexual prowess at seduction. You can read all about it in his

autobiography,

My Wicked, Wicked Ways.



I don't know if I buy his version of how he castrated sheep.



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, Florida



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 9 Nov 1995 23:31:27 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> I don't know if I buy his version of how he castrated sheep.



Seth,



I've got to know. Enlighten us.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 1995 to 9 Nov 1995

**********************************************





There are 20 messages totalling 587 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Funny Names for Newspapers

 2. RhetORic (2)

 3. Knarly?

 4. "in like flynn" (6)

 5. TUNE, DUKE, NOON NEWS, ETC.

 6. Gnarly Gnews! (4)

 7. Political Blunder (5)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 07:44:07 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> The Mad Magazine reference jogged my worthless memory and caused me to

> remember a cartoon in Mad Magazine from say 30 years ago in which some

> long-winded upper-middle-class types were discussing the relative worth of

> various Sunday newspapers. As the conversation wore on, it became obvious

> that the people were not discussing the intellectual merits of the

> newspapers but the merits of the newspapers as paper for dog elimination.



In his autobiography, Walter Laqueur, the historian, tells of moving to

London and how excited he was anticipating the Sunday newspapers. Well,

he bought his first Sunday papers and was mortified to discover that all

the "news" was about the engagement of Princess Margaret, and that's all

anybody in London seemed to want to talk about; no one seemed to read the

Times and the Guardian. When he complained to a friend, he was told, "Oh,

Walter. The only people in England who read the Times and the Guardian are

African and Indian graduate students."



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:05:33 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

> heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

> about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable.



Dwight Bolinger (sorry, I don't have the exact reference handy, but I can

find it if you want it) claims that stress sometimes shifts toward the

end of a word for focus, but it depends on the word's position in the

sentence. If that's right, your Rush fan might be producing this kind of

shift to meet the rhetorical demands of the moment, instead of

demonstrating a feature of dialect. But of course you'd have to

have the whole sentence to be able to take a stab at that analysis.



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:26:34 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



Since I am one of your plain old sociolinguists, I ain't into readin' and

writin' much. Privileges of occurrence among sounds (in terms of linear

order) are known as 'phonotactics.' Does Tony's account amount to a

'graphotactic' explanation? Is there such a convention among those of you

who study writing systems? I remember studies of long ago which looked at

'grapheme-phoneme correspondences'; perhaps they contained such

terminology.

Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





>Seth:

>    I think Shaw's example was "ghoti" with gh from rough. What GBS did

>not understand was that "gh" does not occur in initial position "o" does occur

>in medial position as in "women" GBS's example, and "ti" of nation does not

>occur in final position.

>

>    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:37:41 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



"In like Flynn" refers to filmstar Erroll's ability to seduce [underage] women,

the fame for which he received as the result of a famous trial.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 09:08:48 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



>On Wed, 8 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

>> On a quick ride to the Wal-Mart to get some anti-freeze a minute ago, I

>> heard a caller from Wisconsin (I believe) tell Rush Limbaugh something

>> about liberal rhetORic, with stress on the second syllable.

>

>Dwight Bolinger (sorry, I don't have the exact reference handy, but I can

>find it if you want it) claims that stress sometimes shifts toward the

>end of a word for focus, but it depends on the word's position in the

>sentence. If that's right, your Rush fan might be producing this kind of

>shift to meet the rhetorical demands of the moment, instead of

>demonstrating a feature of dialect. But of course you'd have to

>have the whole sentence to be able to take a stab at that analysis.

>

>--Joan



I don't have the whole sentence available in my personal RAM. As I noted

to Joan in a private post, I'm wondering if the pronunciation was perhaps a

ditto-head joke that I just didn't catch.



By the way, I'm glad those students out there think we're weird. My

students derived great fun out of the folk/foke problem for the first

thirty pages. The last forty pages or so just about killed them.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 09:51:25 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: TUNE, DUKE, NOON NEWS, ETC.



For those of you who might want actually to be so knarly as to READ

something in an

old-fashioned BOOK-like device concerning variability in

initial [+consonant]([y])[u] words in English, I recommend Ann Pitts's,

"Flip-Flop Prestige in American TUNE, DUKE, and NEWS," in AMERICAN SPEECH

61.2 (Summer 1986), 130-38. Dr. Pitts actually has done some research on

this question!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 10:04:08 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Bob Haas wrote:

>

> On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>

> > I don't know if I buy his version of how he castrated sheep.

>

> Seth,

>

> I've got to know. Enlighten us.

>

> Bob Haas

> University of North Carolina at Greensboro

> rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



>

Perhaps this refers to the oral/dental methodology supposedly (once)

employed in Australia and New Zealand? (Or so I was told when I was an

adolescent.)



But I don't know what Flynn professed in these matters. My own currently

is directed towards Cary Grant; so far as I know, he never went near a sheep.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 07:56:01 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Gnarly Gnews!



Excellent, Joan! I was referring to the "fashions of speaking" that

spread the word widely rather than its origin, which you have (by

experience?) rightly pinpointed. In fact, prompted by this discussion,

the person I keep referring to as "my wife" (Dr. Marilyn Silva) last

night in a class mentioned this topic word and -- lo and behold! -- found

a native speaker of SurferTalk who told her exactly the same information.

The expression comes from all the dings resulting in bumps from being

thrown off boards, battered by surf, etc. For this speaker, the word is

definitely with a non-optional "g" because of the gnarled appearance.

However, it is not surprising that even some native speakers of this

dialect (?) do not know its origin and therefore reanalyze it to have

either a different silent letter in spelling (k) or none at all. Both

Marilyn and I are sure we've seen 'Narly!' written before (where?).



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Joan C. Cook wrote:



> On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

>

> > PS -- my wife also is of the opinion that looking up Valley Girl Talk in

> > Webster's is a case of misplaced authority.

>

> :-)

>

> Well, actually, Dan, (g)narly isn't Valley Girl Talk, it's Surfer (and

> Skateboarder) Talk. :-)

>

> --Joan (who's too many miles from that part of the world to be licensed

> to talk about it)

>

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

> Department of Linguistics                more important

> Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

> Washington, D.C., USA

> cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

> *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

>

>

>

>

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 08:24:48 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



OH! Well, now I understand James Coburn's "In Like Flint" movie title better!



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, David Bergdahl wrote:



> "In like Flynn" refers to filmstar Erroll's ability to seduce [underage] women,

> the fame for which he received as the result of a famous trial.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 11:24:24 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Gnarly Gnews!



> However, it is not surprising that even some native speakers of this

> dialect (?) do not know its origin and therefore reanalyze it to have

> either a different silent letter in spelling (k) or none at all. Both

> Marilyn and I are sure we've seen 'Narly!' written before (where?).



but, i do think that (some) people pronounce it w/ a pretty velar

nasal at the front--almost with the 'g'. maybe it's just me--

something sound-symbolic about it. or maybe it's the gesture that

is symbolic--cramming the tongue up in the back of the mouth so as to

be gnarled.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dr. M. Lynne Murphy            104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 12:41:21 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



Thanks DMA! I didn't know it was "in like flynn". I only know "in like

flint."



Beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:30:42 -0500

From:  BRIAN E MULLINS <bemull01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Political Blunder



Date:   November 10, 1995

From:   Brian E. Mullins

To:    Recipients of list ADS-L

Subject: Political Blunder









Watching the local news last week here in Central Kentucky I heard

Senator Wendell Ford jump all over a caller. Senator Ford was hosting a

talk radio show and was answering callers had regarding politics and

where Senator Ford stood. A caller was complaining about the a tax

proposal that the Senator was endorsing. The caller said, "I ain't near

rich as you." The Senator angrily replied, "I ain't nigger rich

either." This of course was the political blunder of the week here in

Kentucky. Senator Ford later apologized to 04 that he may have

offended, which in this state isn't many. He said he was only

reprimanding the caller for what he thought was said. Being from

Detroit and then moving to Kentucky I have heard numerous racial slurs

but this one is one I never heard. Is there such a slur? What does it

mean? The only guess I have is one that once owned numerous slaves was

"nigger rich." I imagine it wouldn't be hard to trace Senator Ford's roots.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 14:01:14 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



Brian:



 I'm curious: Could the Senator really have misunderstood the caller?





    >The caller said, "I ain't near rich as you." The Senator

    > angrily replied, "I ain't nigger rich either."



The only way I can imagine a "legitimate" mis-hearing (as opposed to some very

swift back-pedaling) is for both speakers to be r-less. Even then I have to

wonder, since you say that the Senator is not a native son, but hails from

Detroit.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 14:30:23 -0500

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Suzanne Legault: English wrote:



> Brian:

>

>  I'm curious: Could the Senator really have misunderstood the caller?

>

>

>    >The caller said, "I ain't near rich as you." The Senator

>    > angrily replied, "I ain't nigger rich either."

>

> The only way I can imagine a "legitimate" mis-hearing (as opposed to some very

> swift back-pedaling) is for both speakers to be r-less. Even then I have to

> wonder, since you say that the Senator is not a native son, but hails from

> Detroit.

>



No, no. The Senator is a native Kentuckian and the guy calling in

sounded like a native Kentuckian. When I heard the caller I also thought

he has said "nigger-rich," but I think it had more to do with "noise" on

the line than with a peculiar linguisitc twitch.



As I have heard the term used it refers to the racist notion that when

black (and they need not be from Africa) people get a paycheck they have

lots of money but they quickly spend it. Thus to be "nigger-rich" is to

have an infusion of money. The implication is that now that one has

money he/she will quit working until more money is needed. The idea is

that blacks can never have a lot of money because as soon as they get any

they quit working until they run out.



Now, with this understanding, I must say that the Ford-caller conversation

makes little sense from Ford's end. He claims to have been just repeating

what the caller said to him, but the two men were talking about taxes.

The caller was making the point that more taxes were a burden on him

because he is not as rich as Senator Ford. If I were Ford's PR man I

would be saying that all this makes sense. The caller could not pay more

taxes because he hasn't gotten any great infusion of money. However, I

think the way the term so naturally flowed from Ford's mouth that it is

clearly a normal element of the Senator's vocabulary, which is why I think

there was so much fuss about his usage.





Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 13:54:06 EST

From:  mai <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gnarly Gnews!



>However, it is not surprising that even some native speakers of this

>dialect (?) do not know its origin and therefore reanalyze it to have

>either a different silent letter in spelling (k) or none at all.



I have followed this discussion with interest, since I have encountered

this word frequently and hardly had a clue as to what it meant except

through its context. Now I too can utter the all too cool expression,



"Gnarly, dude!"    :-)



BTW, the people using this expression in Lexington, Ky are pool players,

rock musicians and "young dudes" who "chill". I have heard this from

white kids mostly. I also heard a young black man use the word "corn"

and saw it written with a backwards K on a t-shirt yesterday.

I presume the meaning is cannabis. Can anyone verify this?



Mark Ingram, who became gnarly the old fashioned way

maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 14:30:05 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, BRIAN E MULLINS wrote:



> Being from

> Detroit and then moving to Kentucky I have heard numerous racial slurs

> but this one is one I never heard. Is there such a slur? What does it

> mean? The only guess I have is one that once owned numerous slaves was

> "nigger rich."



Yes, it's a racial slur, but not about slaveowning. If you're used to

having lots of money, and you find $5 on the sidewalk, it's no big deal;

but if you win the lottery, you're rich. If you're used to getting by on

next to nothing, and you find $5 on the sidewalk, you suddenly *feel* rich.



How, in the context, Sen. Ford could've misheard "near rich" beats me;

[s] doesn't transmit well over phone lines, but [g] does, doesn't it?



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 16:03:36 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



The definition of the racist idiom 'nigger rich' has already been

explained, but I am a little surprised that so many list participants don't

understand that 'near rich' could have been so misheard. I assure you that

lenition is alive ansd well. In ordinary spoken English, when a C hangs out

between two Vs, it is in danger of losing its C-status. Just look what

happnes to 'butter' as it goes from the British, aspirated 't' form to an

almost completely lenited form in rapid spoken varieties of AmerEng,

leaving, in my speech, for example, something that sounds like 'buhr.'

Assume lenition on the 'g' of the racist term, and the mishearing is clear.



Dennis (the lenitor, or is it leniter?) Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>

>

>Watching the local news last week here in Central Kentucky I heard

>Senator Wendell Ford jump all over a caller. Senator Ford was hosting a

>talk radio show and was answering callers had regarding politics and

>where Senator Ford stood. A caller was complaining about the a tax

>proposal that the Senator was endorsing. The caller said, "I ain't near

>rich as you." The Senator angrily replied, "I ain't nigger rich

>either." This of course was the political blunder of the week here in

>Kentucky. Senator Ford later apologized to 04 that he may have

>offended, which in this state isn't many. He said he was only

>reprimanding the caller for what he thought was said. Being from

>Detroit and then moving to Kentucky I have heard numerous racial slurs

>but this one is one I never heard. Is there such a slur? What does it

>mean? The only guess I have is one that once owned numerous slaves was

>"nigger rich." I imagine it wouldn't be hard to trace Senator Ford's roots.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 22:59:00 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



>On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Bob Haas wrote:

>>

>> On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:

>>

>> > I don't know if I buy his version of how he castrated sheep.

>>

>> Seth,

>>

>> I've got to know. Enlighten us.

>>

>> Bob Haas

>> University of North Carolina at Greensboro

>> rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

>

>>

>Perhaps this refers to the oral/dental methodology supposedly (once)

>employed in Australia and New Zealand? (Or so I was told when I was an

>adolescent.)

>

>But I don't know what Flynn professed in these matters. My own currently

>is directed towards Cary Grant; so far as I know, he never went near a sheep.

>

Well, Bob, there you have it. Now, what about Little Bo Peep?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 20:09:25 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gnarly Gnews!



Actually, the (g)narl(e)y news is presented in the most freewheeling

Dictionary of Surfing Terms ever written: THE SURFIN'ary, by Trevor

Cralle.



It was a term that Cralle has as "gnar-gnar; gnarlatious; gnarly;

gnarlness (a term of obeisance); gnarled; gnarler; gnarly-ass; total

gnarler; AND nar, narly "see gnarly"



Cheers

tlc



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:



> Excellent, Joan! I was referring to the "fashions of speaking" that

> spread the word widely rather than its origin, which you have (by

> experience?) rightly pinpointed. In fact, prompted by this discussion,

> the person I keep referring to as "my wife" (Dr. Marilyn Silva) last

> night in a class mentioned this topic word and -- lo and behold! -- found

> a native speaker of SurferTalk who told her exactly the same information.

> The expression comes from all the dings resulting in bumps from being

> thrown off boards, battered by surf, etc. For this speaker, the word is

> definitely with a non-optional "g" because of the gnarled appearance.

> However, it is not surprising that even some native speakers of this

> dialect (?) do not know its origin and therefore reanalyze it to have

> either a different silent letter in spelling (k) or none at all. Both

> Marilyn and I are sure we've seen 'Narly!' written before (where?).

>

> On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Joan C. Cook wrote:

>

> > On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote:

> >

> > > PS -- my wife also is of the opinion that looking up Valley Girl Talk in

> > > Webster's is a case of misplaced authority.

> >

> > :-)

> >

> > Well, actually, Dan, (g)narly isn't Valley Girl Talk, it's Surfer (and

> > Skateboarder) Talk. :-)

> >

> > --Joan (who's too many miles from that part of the world to be licensed

> > to talk about it)

> >

> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> > Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

> > Department of Linguistics                more important

> > Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

> > Washington, D.C., USA

> > cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

> > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 10 Nov 1995 23:12:00 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: "in like flynn"



>OH! Well, now I understand James Coburn's "In Like Flint" movie title better!

>

>On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, David Bergdahl wrote:

>

>> "In like Flynn" refers to filmstar Erroll's ability to seduce [underage]

women,

>> the fame for which he received as the result of a famous trial.

>

And I always thought it was a reference to his Johnson in his Ronson.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1995 to 10 Nov 1995

***********************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 187 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Political Blunder (3)

 2. American Speech

 3. Learn how to ZERO OUT your Long Distance telephone bill!    CALL NOW! 

   1(800) 684-8253 Ext.7283

 4. RhetORic



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 07:20:57 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



With advanced apologies to those in the Johnnie Cochran fan club who may

be offended by the "N" word, even in this scholarly context I feel compelled

offer some elucidation to the possible etymology.



A "nigger roll" also known as a "Detroit roll" or a "Michigan roll"

is a wad of one dollar bills wrapped with higher denomination bills

to make it appear that the whole roll is high denomination bills.

It was often "flashed" or shown rapidly so the "mark" or person to

be impressed would enter into a venture, wager or scheme and put up

a real stake which would inevitably be taken.



Nigger rich therefore became a person who mistakenly thought he was rich

or had a lot of money due to self delusion, possibly from an

inflated opinion of his assets.



Then there is a "nigger head" which is a large ball of iron at the end of a

crane cable just above the iron hook.

 ----

   Brian E. Mullins wrote:



>Watching the local news last week here in Central Kentucky I heard

>Senator Wendell Ford jump all over a caller. Senator Ford was hosting a

>talk radio show and was answering callers had regarding politics and

>where Senator Ford stood. A caller was complaining about the a tax

>proposal that the Senator was endorsing. The caller said, "I ain't near

>rich as you." The Senator angrily replied, "I ain't nigger rich

>either." This of course was the political blunder of the week here in

>Kentucky. Senator Ford later apologized to 04 that he may have

>offended, which in this state isn't many. He said he was only

>reprimanding the caller for what he thought was said. Being from

>Detroit and then moving to Kentucky I have heard numerous racial slurs

>but this one is one I never heard. Is there such a slur? What does it

>mean? The only guess I have is one that once owned numerous slaves was

>"nigger rich." I imagine it wouldn't be hard to trace Senator Ford's roots.

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:30:34 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Fri, 10 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>

> The definition of the racist idiom 'nigger rich' has already been

> explained, but I am a little surprised that so many list participants don't

> understand that 'near rich' could have been so misheard. I assure you that

> lenition is alive ansd well. In ordinary spoken English, when a C hangs out

> between two Vs, it is in danger of losing its C-status. Just look what

> happnes to 'butter' as it goes from the British, aspirated 't' form to an

> almost completely lenited form in rapid spoken varieties of AmerEng,

> leaving, in my speech, for example, something that sounds like 'buhr.'

> Assume lenition on the 'g' of the racist term, and the mishearing is clear.

>

Yes. HOWEVER, the "N" word is so incredibly powerful that, pragmatically,

it would not be likely to be subject to lenition. (Of course, it might be

subject to a kind of racist double entendre.) In any case, the phrase in

question is obviously so much a part of the senator's vocabulary that it

was thrust to the forefront of his mind when he heard the caller utter

the word "near."



When a deviant interpretation overrides a normal interpretation, unusual

linguistic forces are at work. In this case, those forces SEEM to be the

racist sensibility of the senator. However, it is not impossible to argue

(based merely on the reports--I didn't hear the broadcast) that his

response WAS intended as a reprimand--that he thought he heard a racist

utterance and tried to imply by "repeating" the caller's words (and with

his intonation?) that he didn't approve of the racist phrase. The

observer is left with the question, "Why didn't he speak more directly?"

but if you have analyzed as many recorded conversations as I have, you

know that people do not always speak directly--do not always say what

they mean: sometimes they are just being polite; sometimes they are

trying to deal with too many agendas at the same time and can't say

everything that they want to say--they forget where the conversation is

going. One presumes that an experienced politician speaking on the radio

would be better at communicating, but it is not inconceivable that what

happened was simply a mistake on his part in not making his reprimand

clear enough. (I don't know much about the senator; based on WHAT I do

know, I suspect that I probably mostly abhor his politics, but I just

want to point out that, from the perspective of conversational analysis,

he MIGHT be telling the truth about what he meant and what his intentions

were.)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 11:36:53 -0500

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: American Speech



One of the big benefits of membership in the American Dialect Society is the

quarterly arrival of the journal AMERICAN SPEECH, edited by Ron Butters at

Duke U. (soon to be Connie Eble at U of NC) and published by the Alabama

Press. The mail has just brought us the Fall 1995 issue (Vol 70 No 3) with:

- Recent Jamaican Words in Sociolinguistic Context - Peter Patrick

- The Case of _be_ + _like_ - Kathleen Ferrara and Barbara Bell

- The /z/ to [d] Rule - Natalie Schilling-Estes

- Among the New Words - John and Adele Algeo

plus reviews and miscellany.

 Members of ADS get four such issues a year, plus a newsletter, plus our

monograph series PADS for $30 annual dues. If you aren't yet a member, send

me your s-mail address and I'll send a sample newsletter and tables of

contents of American Speech (sorry, I don't have extra copies to give away).

Then you'll have in-depth information on your shelves for discussions on

ADS-L!

 Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:46:02 -0500

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Ronald Butters wrote:



> clear enough. (I don't know much about the senator; based on WHAT I do

> know, I suspect that I probably mostly abhor his politics, but I just

> want to point out that, from the perspective of conversational analysis,

> he MIGHT be telling the truth about what he meant and what his intentions

> were.)

>

I am not sure what Ron's political leanings might be, but the primary

leader of the Louisville African-American community (Reverend Coleman)

has pointed out on several media venues that he thinks Senator Ford is

"the best we have" in reference to senators who are sympathic to issues

affecting minorities.





Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 19:50:06 -0500

From:  sureshot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USA.PIPLINE.COM

Subject: Learn how to ZERO OUT your Long Distance telephone bill!    CALL

     NOW! 1(800) 684-8253 Ext.7283



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------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 11 Nov 1995 20:46:31 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



I've been out of town and am responding to old postings from the middle

of last week. Once my father, who had advanced to the 3rd reader in

Indian Territory before electing to place farm work above readin/ritin,

sounded out 'rhetoric' as rheTORic and asked me what it meant. I of

course, dutiful son that I am, demonstrated the received pronunciation in

my explanation.  Why would he not have made it rhyme with 'caloric'?

And have the same stress placement as 'algebraic'? I don't know whether

he used the term much after learning its meaning.



I'd been thinking of posting a word-stress question, and here's my opportunity.

Recently I heard an interview with an Republican legislator from Oklahoma in

which he consistently stressed (not equally, but that's not the point) the

first and third syllables in 'distribute' so that it "matched" 'distribution'.

(I can't think of the man's name, but gave his party affiliation in case

that helps others think of who it might be; he's on TV a lot these days because

he is Chair of some committee [really drawing blanks here]). His pronunciation

almost made Robert McNeil do the same "mispronunciation."



Have others of you noticed many suggestions of a current trend away from

some of the SPE stress-placement rules that we found so interesting in 1968?

I've noticed other examples but can't think of them right now.

                               DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Nov 1995 to 11 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 159 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. RhetORic

 2. Political Blunder (3)

 3. Funny Names for Newspapers

 4. near rich (2)

 5. Knarly?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 09:39:42 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: RhetORic



My 18 yr old son consistently pronounces lethargy with the stress on the second

syllable, and appropriate vowel shifts. I, being a dutiful father, pointed out

that in lethargic, the

stress was on the second syllable, but in lethargy it was on the first (ignoring

differential stress). He said that if I wanted to do it that way, OK, but he

was going to make them sound the same because he preferred it that way.

My guess is that he learned lethargic first and applied that pronunciation to

the noun.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 14:08:28 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



>Date:     Sat, 11 Nov 1995 07:20:57 -0500

>From: SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

>Sender:    American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

>To:  Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

>Subject:    Re: Political Blunder



>

>A "nigger roll" also known as a "Detroit roll" or a "Michigan roll"

>is a wad of one dollar bills wrapped with higher denomination bills

>to make it appear that the whole roll is high denomination bills.

>It was often "flashed" or shown rapidly so the "mark" or person to

>be impressed would enter into a venture, wager or scheme and put up

>a real stake which would inevitably be taken.

>

I had just heard a term for that the other day: a dutch roll.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 15:38:03 -0500

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



 Well, there's the Burlington Free Depress, the Montreal Gazoo, Le Joual

De Montreal(Joual= Quebecois street dialect; literally translated it means

horse, implying that's how it sounds), the Times Aardvark(Times Argus)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 17:39:06 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



For what it's worth, I wonder if B. B.'s citation of "dutch roll" as synonymous

with "detroit roll," etc. for a sham stake is altogether so. Consider the

following "dutch" items: courage, treat ("go dutch"), uncle (and maybe even

oven) where the adjective can be roughly glossed 'ersatz,' 'pseudo.'



I was unaware of this polysemy until I came across it in the Dutch character's

monologue in Mary McCarthy's novel, "Cannibals and Missionaries."



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:36:38 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Al Futrell wrote:



> I am not sure what Ron [Butters]'s political leanings might be, but the

primary

> leader of the Louisville African-American community (Reverend Coleman)

> has pointed out on several media venues that he thinks Senator Ford is

> "the best we have" in reference to senators who are sympathic to issues

> affecting minorities.



Thanks, Al, for the clarification. I guess that I am enough of a liberal

that I abhor the politics of 'most ALL politicians to the right of Edward

Kennedy (and he is pretty far right for my tastes on some issues). But

it is encouraging to know that the tetimony of Rev. Coleman lends further

pragmatic support to my conclusion that Sen. Ford could have been telling

the truth on the issue of his remark that many construed to have been

racist.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:48:26 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: near rich



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 12-Nov-1995 06:44pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: near rich





Could it be that the senator's mishearing was due to a lenis glottal stop to

separate the two syllables of r-less NEAR: [ni?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] with ?=g.s & [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa I'm

a hundred miles upstream from Louisville but that articulation isn't totally

foreign to my ear.











Received: 12-Nov-1995 06:48pm



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 20:08:27 -0500

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: near rich



On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, David Bergdahl wrote:



> Could it be that the senator's mishearing was due to a lenis glottal stop to

> separate the two syllables of r-less NEAR: [ni?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] with ?=g.s & [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa I'm

> a hundred miles upstream from Louisville but that articulation isn't totally

> foreign to my ear.

>

I guess it could be but when I heard the broadcast I think it was a

simple matter of physical noise on the line. And the senator is over 70

so maybe he just can't hear very well. I don't think there was anything

linguistic about his pronunciation, but I think the fact that he used the

taboo term is the issue -- sociolinguitic I would say.



Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 12 Nov 1995 20:46:32 -0500

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Knarly?



On Thu, 9 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Gno! Gno! Gno! Do gnot plugnge a gnife ignto your heart!

>

> Bethany

> dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

>

 "Gnor am I in the least/Like that dreadful hartebeast/Oh Gno, gno,

gno!/I'm a gnu."



-Flanders & Swann



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Nov 1995 to 12 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 294 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. mla lex & room

 2. Political Blunder (2)

 3. Sen. Ford

 4. near rich

 5. N-Rich: Political Blunder

 6. Funny Names for Newspapers

 7. More on "nigger rich"

 8. Th Power of Words (2)

 9. Horsey Words

 10. "Esthetician"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 05:44:51 -0500

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: mla lex & room



hello all--



i'm about to turn off ads-l for 2 months as i'm off to the states

where my e-mail access is not all that hot (if you can believe that).

hope i'll see some of you at ncte, mla, and lsa.



but, before i go, i have 2 queries re: the mla convention in chicago:



(1) is the lexicography group having a session? if so, what day is

it?



(perhaps people there have received the pmla with the schedule in it--

i expect mine to turn up in january.)



(2) does anyone need a roommate in a hotel in chicago? i've not

reserved a room yet, but need to find someone to share expenses

with. (i expect to have a friend with me for the last night only.)



please respond to me directly, as i'll not be getting the list.



thanks,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-8030

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 06:01:13 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart <LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



I still don't understand why the senator felt it necessary to repeat

what the caller said. If he really did hear it as a racial slur I don't

see why he would be so eager to repeat something like that--especially

on a radio talk show where so many people could hear it. I also don't

understand how repeating the slur was a way of reprimanding the caller.

It seems a better rebuke would have been enlightening the caller about

the inappropriateness of such a slur.





************************************************************************

SONJA L. LANEHART

300 PARK HALL             OFFICE: (706) 542-2260

DEPARTMENT OF ENGLISH         HOME:  (706) 543-7598

THE UNIVERSITY OF GEORGIA       FAX:   (706) 543-2181

ATHENS, GA 30602-6205         E-MAIL: LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU

************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 09:10:22 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman" <egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>

Subject: Sen. Ford



The only Senator Ford I remember was a jokester on the old radio show

"Can You Top This?", where he shared the limelight with Joe Laurie,

Jr. and Peter Donald. I guess I'm giving away my age.

EWGilman



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 09:11:03 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: near rich



I'm sure Al was typing fast and didn't mean it, but this is one of my

favorite phrases yet:



'I don't think there was anything linguistic about his pronunciation,...'



Dennis Preston



>On Sun, 12 Nov 1995, David Bergdahl wrote:

>

>> Could it be that the senator's mishearing was due to a lenis glottal stop to

>> separate the two syllables of r-less NEAR: [ni?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] with ?=g.s & [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa I'm

>> a hundred miles upstream from Louisville but that articulation isn't totally

>> foreign to my ear.

>>

>I guess it could be but when I heard the broadcast I think it was a

>simple matter of physical noise on the line. And the senator is over 70

>so maybe he just can't hear very well. I don't think there was anything

>linguistic about his pronunciation, but I think the fact that he used the

>taboo term is the issue -- sociolinguitic I would say.

>

>Al Futrell

>-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

>-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

>Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 08:13:11 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: N-Rich: Political Blunder



Could "near" have been pronounced with a long enough diphthong that it

sounded like 2 syllables?



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 10:41:19 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Sonja Lanehart wrote:

>

> I still don't understand why the senator felt it necessary to repeat

> what the caller said. If he really did hear it as a racial slur I don't

> see why he would be so eager to repeat something like that--especially

> on a radio talk show where so many people could hear it. I also don't

> understand how repeating the slur was a way of reprimanding the caller.

> It seems a better rebuke would have been enlightening the caller about

> the inappropriateness of such a slur.



Granted, there are people--many people--for whom the word "nigger" is so

painful and invidious that they find it socially inappropriate for anyone

to utter it under ANY circumstances; for such persons, even repeating the

word with ironic intent (as I believe that Sen. Ford claims he thought he

was doing) would be considered socially inappropriate. On the other hand,

I can imagine myself in a situation in which I thought that someone had

used a phrase containing the invidious word in question and in which I

would be so shocked that I might conceivably repeat it back to the

utterer--my voice (I would hope) dripping with irony. For me, whenever I

hear someone use "nigger" in a "normal" way I am left virtually

speechless; sputtering with rage; conversationally inept. I agree that

there would certainly have been better ways for Sen. Ford to have handled

the situation. What I am maintaining is that, under the circumstances, it

could well have been an honest strategic conversational blunder brought

on partly by shock and partly by a desire to reprimand a constituent

without seeming too impolitic. I would hate to have to be held

responsible for all of my worst conversational missteps, and I think that

it is wrong simply to assume that the phrase is one that Sen Ford

approves of or uses regularly in conversation, or even that it indicates

racial bigotry on his part. As I understand it, he has given a public

explanation for his remark which contains an implicit apology and an

expression of abhorrence for the phrase in question. Given the facts as

they have been reported to me, I'd be willing to accept his explanation.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 11:54:50 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Funny Names for Newspapers



> Well, there's the Burlington Free Depress, the Montreal Gazoo, Le Joual

>De Montreal(Joual= Quebecois street dialect; literally translated it means

>horse, implying that's how it sounds), the Times Aardvark(Times Argus)



Ditto-heads also refer to the television news interview show as "Meet the

Depressed."







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:23:39 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: More on "nigger rich"



Volume III of DARE will have these citations for "nigger rich":



c1930 Swann _Lang. Circus Lot_ 13, _Nigger rich:_ One who spends money

foolishly.



1941 Corle _Desert Country_ 49, There is in the temperament of the American

Negro..the urge and desire to burst forth from a more or less restricted

social status into kingship--into being Caesar, czar, sultan, dictator. The

stultified ego has, naturally, a tendency to express the counterpart. This

manifestation of the human psyche has led to the vernacular expression

"nigger rich."



1968-70 _DARE_ (Qu. U37,.._Somebody who has plenty of money_) Inf CA113,

Nigger rich--somebody who's just made a lot and is flashing it

around--common word here; (Qu. W40,.._A woman who overdresses or..spends too

much on clothes_) Inf KS12, Nigger rich; (Qu. HH35, _A woman who puts on a

lot of airs: "She's too _______ for me."_) Inf PA245, Nigger rich--acting

like she just got rich but it's only a few bucks.



1986 Pederson _LAGS Concordance_, 1 inf, nwMS, Nigger rich--making money,

spending it immediately.







So the phrase is definitely "out there." Remember that we don't endorse it,

we only report it!



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:10:02 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Th Power of Words



I schedduled a long overdue manicure at the salon run by my fvorite

Old City entrepreneur Sat. When I arrived, I learned that my fav had sol

out to an outfit called "Natural Alternatives Salon." One of my

fav manicurists was still there, and I had a manicure.



Just now I picked up the business card the new owner handed me. It

introduces her as "Jennifer Thacker, Esthetician."



I REALLY do not know whether I can go back!



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 15:11:46 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Horsey Words



A colleague, Tom Wheeler (are you listening, N?), has aked whether there

is a dictionary containing only words pertaining to the domain of horses.

I don't know of one -- does anyone else?



Thanks,

Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:06:14 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Th Power of Words



On Nov. 13, Beverly Dumas wrote:



>Just now I picked up the business card the new owner handed me. It

>introduces her as "Jennifer Thacker, Esthetician."



>I REALLY do not know whether I can go back!

____________________________



  Outlandish as it may seem, it's echt-American; in fact, I first used it as

an exam item in American English in '77. (Quit subtracting!)  I had found it,

honest-to-god, in a Yellow Pages ad under "Beauty." It was even more florid in

context, as I recall--something along the lines of "Institute of Cosmetolgy"

where one could train to become a licensed "esthetician." My intent was to test

reading of the Pyles and Marckwardt texts I was then using, each of which

discussed verbal inflation as a hallmark of a distinctively "American" style.



  As a closet classicist (who prefers eating in English to starving in Greek),

may I urge B.D. to return to the nail-competent J., who is doing her part,

albeit unwittingly, to prove that Greek and Latin still live.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 17:15:31 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: "Esthetician"



> Just now I picked up the business card the new owner handed me. It

> introduces her as "Jennifer Thacker, Esthetician."

>

> I REALLY do not know whether I can go back!



I'd say this is a fairly common word right now. While it might

be annoying in its pretentiousness, it's not even very new--we

have citations back to 1950 (in the aes- spelling), in what is

pretty much the same sense.



And it's not even especially misleading--save the rage for those

garbagemen calling themselves "sanitation engineers."



Best,



Jesse "'Exquisitely groomed'--New York Magazine" Sheidlower

Random House Reference

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Nov 1995 to 13 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 32 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Esthetician"

 2. Networkcentric



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 13 Nov 1995 22:31:42 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: "Esthetician"



Of course, I still like Rosanne's "domestic goddess."



rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 14 Nov 1995 08:29:33 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Networkcentric



Listening to NPR this morning (which was not shut down by the budget

stalemate), I heard the IBM CEO (Gershner?) talk at the big computer

convention in Las Vegas (COMDEX?) about the future of computing as

"networkcentric"--a new word for me. Bill Gates (Mr. Microsoft), accused

of creating "fat" software, argued against this future. His money is still

on the PC. Even Tyrannosaurus Rex became extinct, however.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Nov 1995 to 14 Nov 1995

************************************************



To: Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>



There are 9 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Tomboy & Sissy (8)

 2. Gringos (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:32:18 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Tomboy & Sissy



When I was a pre-pubescent child, both other children and parents with whom

I conversed used the term "tomboy" to refer to a girl who preferred

activities associated traditionally with boys and "sissy" to a boy who

preferred activities traditionally associated with girls or who showed any

weakness. But these terms had no connotation of sexual preference. (For

example, a tomboy, who treed all of the boys at my birthday party by

throwing a football at them, onced pinned me down in the second grade and

kissed me as the nun walked in. I got the lecture about inappropriate

behavior!) We learned new taboo terms for homosexuals in our pubescent

days.



However, I know someone who works in the Georgia prison system who

regularly uses "tomboy" and "sissy" to refer to the female and male

homosexuals in prison. He became a teenager in the South in the 1950s. Is

he using a personal set of euphemisms or did I miss something as a naive

child?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 10:11:11 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



To my ear (not to mention my chagrine),

"sissy" carries with it the connotation

of a male homosexual, in the same way

that little boys are chastised for

throwing "like girls" or called "girly"

when they don't live up to tough guy

standards.

"Tomboy," to me, doesn't carry the

same properties.



Anyone else?



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 08:54:14 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



I grew up in Mississippi and Tennessee, and as a child and pre-pubescer

both _sissy_ and _tomboy_ had no connotations of sexual preference for me;

of course, the term _sexual preferences_ had no con- or denotations of

sexual preferences, either. A lot of us were naive in those not-so-good-old

-days.

Greg Pulliam

IIT-Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 12:33:38 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



> However, I know someone who works in the Georgia prison system who

> regularly uses "tomboy" and "sissy" to refer to the female and male

> homosexuals in prison. He became a teenager in the South in the 1950s. Is

> he using a personal set of euphemisms or did I miss something as a naive

> child?



I don't remember any connection of "sissy" and "tomboy" with homosexuality

when I was a child in the South in the early '50s, probably because my

friends and I hadn't heard of homosexuality at that point. (I can't

remember how old I was when I first heard of it, but I do remember the

introduction. A neighbor told me that the word "queer" referred to

"people who were half male and half female and lived in New Orleans."

I was old enough to be aware that New Orleans wasn't very far away from

Jackson, because I remember having a frightening image of a huge tribe

of large, hermaphroditic creatures heading out of New Orleans through

South Mississippi.) Later, possibly during my teenaged years in the

late '50s, I began to hear an association between "sissy" and homosexual.

I don't think I ever heard such an association for "tomboy."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:02:05 -0500

From:  Tom Beckner <TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



Re: prison slang: sissy has definite sexua



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 16:06:55 -0500

From:  Tom Beckner <TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



Re: prison slang, in southern prisons, at least, "sissy" has a definite homosexual connotation, and always with reference to that person the user claimed was

the "a

 passive participant." I have not found the term "tomboy" with the same rconnotation. However, "boy" can also have a homosexual connotation, again

in a perjorative sense connected with ownership of the partner, e.g. "my boy."



W. Thomas Beckner

Taylor University-Ft. Wayne



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 13:14:57 -0800

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



Any prison lexicon study shows the same usage among prisoners.

tlc





> > However, I know someone who works in the Georgia prison system who

> > regularly uses "tomboy" and "sissy" to refer to the female and male

> > homosexuals in prison. He became a teenager in the South in the 1950s. Is

> > he using a personal set of euphemisms or did I miss something as a naive

> > child?

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:58:29 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



In KY in the 50s, among adolescents and younger, neither had homosexual

connotations. Tomboy was probably more positive than sissy, because it was

better to be like a man than a woman. In other words, it was ok for a girl to

be masculine, but not for a boy to be feminine. In high school, when I was a

sophomore, we were quite

aware of homosexuality. It was common knowledge that the world history teacher

(male) was homosexual and having an affair with one of the male students, for

example. Those of us who published the literary magazine were quite aware that

the woman who owned the print shop that printed the magazine was lesbian. The

student was not called a sissy, at least not among the people I knew, despite

the usual sophomoric jokes and titter, as it were.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 15 Nov 1995 22:09:54 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Gringos (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:11:14 +0000

From: Claddagh Records <claddagh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crl.ie>

To: ballad-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu

Subject: Gringos



Looking for information. You know the old story about 'gringo' having its

origin in 'Green Grows the Laurel'? I have seen this refuted several times,

but cannot find the refutations. Can anybody enlighten me as to the pros

and cons of this question?



Finbar Boyle

Claddagh Records

Dame House

Dame Street

Dublin 2

Ireland



Tel. (353) 1 6778943

Fax (353) 1 6793664



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Nov 1995 to 15 Nov 1995

************************************************



To: Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>



There are 19 messages totalling 868 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Gringos (fwd) (4)

 2. Tomboy & Sissy (2)

 3. Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd) (3)

 4. 1995 Words

 5. Gringo (forwarded)

 6. Political Blunder (2)

 7. Xmas pronouns (2)

 8. Don Nelson puts behind (2)

 9. gringo

 10. ?Seven Ways from Sunday (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 01:47:14 -0500

From:  Allan Denchfield <dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM>

Subject: Re: Gringos (fwd)



On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:11:14 +0000

> From: Claddagh Records <claddagh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crl.ie>

> To: ballad-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu

> Subject: Gringos

>

> Looking for information. You know the old story about 'gringo' having its

> origin in 'Green Grows the Laurel'? I have seen this refuted several times,

> but cannot find the refutations. Can anybody enlighten me as to the pros

> and cons of this question?



I heard it as "Green Grow the Lilacs". Guess that's little help.



> Finbar Boyle

> Claddagh Records

> Dame House

> Dame Street

> Dublin 2

> Ireland

>

> Tel. (353) 1 6778943

> Fax (353) 1 6793664



Allan O'Brien Denchfield



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 06:30:13 -0500

From:  Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gringos (fwd)



On Wed, 15 Nov 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Tue, 14 Nov 1995 14:11:14 +0000

> From: Claddagh Records <claddagh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crl.ie>

> To: ballad-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu

> Subject: Gringos

>

> Looking for information. You know the old story about 'gringo' having its

> origin in 'Green Grows the Laurel'? I have seen this refuted several times,

> but cannot find the refutations. Can anybody enlighten me as to the pros

> and cons of this question?



There is no "pro." The "con" is that _gringo_ derives from "Sp, alter.

of _griego_ Greek, stranger, fr. L _Graecus_ Greek" (W10).



+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

+ Fred R. Shapiro               Editor            +

+ Associate Librarian for Public Services   OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN +

+ Yale Law School               LEGAL QUOTATIONS       +

+ e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu    (Oxford University Press)   +

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:14:46 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



tlc has said that the terms are common in prison lexicons. Is there

implied ironic humor in the terms? implied euphemism? They strike me as

delicate ways around words that seem more taboo.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:34:31 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)



>X-UIDL: 816528721.000

>X-Nupop-Charset: English

>Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:27:15 -0600 (CST)

>From: "Nancy Davis Bray" <nbray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu>

>Sender: nbray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>Reply-To: nbray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>To: sgordon, jrose, wglowka

>Subject: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)

>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Content-Length: 1306

>

>

>------------------------------

>From: randall jimerson <jimerson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GONZO.CC.WWU.EDU>

>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 15:48:17 -0800

>To: Multiple recipients of list ARCHIVES

>       <ARCHIVES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIAMIU.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>

>Subject: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)

>

>---------------------- Information from the mail header -----------------------

>Sender:    Archives & Archivists <ARCHIVES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIAMIU.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>

>Poster:    randall jimerson <jimerson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GONZO.CC.WWU.EDU>

>Subject:   HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)

>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>---------- Forwarded message ----------

>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 07:06:31 GMT-6

>From: Neil G. Sapper <NGSAPPER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PCAD-ML.ACTX.EDU>

>To: Multiple recipients of list H-SURVEY <H-SURVEY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu>

>Subject: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995

>

>Date:     Wed, 15 Nov 1995 04:03:02 -0600

>From:      list TFTD-L <TFTD-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU>

>

>        At a lecture on linguistics, the speaker suggested

>    that in English there wasn't the opposite of a double

>    negative, whereby two affirmatives resulted in a negative.

>    Someone from the audience called out "Yeah, right!" which

>    brought down the house.

>

>    -quoted in the Electronic AIR Newsletter

>

>



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 08:39:50 EST

From:  Dawn_Simpson.WESTINGHOUSE-PGBU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NOTES.COMPUSERVE.COM

Subject: Re: Gringos (fwd)



 >

> Looking for information. You know the old story about 'gringo' having its

> origin in 'Green Grows the Laurel'? I have seen this refuted several

times, > but cannot find the refutations. Can anybody enlighten me as to

the pros > and cons of this question?







 I was told by my friend in Puerto Rico that I was a gringo because I was

 Italian and a white cacucassion...have I beee tricked?

 I assumed it was the Spanish way of making fun of me...like a wop!



 Dawn



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:43:20 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: 1995 Words



Dear ADS-ers and others (lurkers, too),



NOW IS THE TIME TO PLACE YOUR CANDIDATES FOR Word of the Year--95!



In a very few weeks in the appropriately windy city of Chicago the vast

assemblage of the ADS membership will sift through the candidates for WORD OF

THE YEAR as it does each year. If you wish to ensure that your favorite NEW

word is considered you may e-mail it (or them) to me at:

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com. Or, you may send them via snail mail (P.O. Box 247,

Cold Spring, NY 10516), fax (914-265-9018), or Alexander Graham Bell's

original infernal machine (914-265-2822). Those who have sent them in the

earlier months of this year should probably reregister them for safety's sake.



See you in Chicago!

David K. Barnhart



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 09:56:27 -0500

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Tomboy & Sissy



On Thu, 16 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> tlc has said that the terms are common in prison lexicons. Is there

> implied ironic humor in the terms? implied euphemism? They strike me as

> delicate ways around words that seem more taboo.



In prison(s) an entire hierarchy of "homosexuals" (I place this in quotes

because that is not really how the prisoners discuss it -- that is our

egghead term) exists and some of this is revealed in the lexicon. For

example, there is a punk, a fag, a sissy, a girl, and so on. Depending

upon what prison you are in, the terms have slightly different meanings,

although a punk is pretty much the lowest level in all the prisons I have

been to, which is about 20.



Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:05:11 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Gringo (forwarded)



On LANTRA-L, a listserv for interpreters and translators,

we just recently had a long thread regarding

the term "gringo."

Sorry about the lengthiness,

but I hope this is helpful.





>We're having a small "debate" here regarding where the word "gringo" came

>from... We all agree on the

>"green go home" part but not on what the word green refers to. Some

>suggestions:

>

>* green uniform (but someone says that back in 1849 the uniforms weren't

>green!)

>

>* green money

>

>* green eyes

>

>Any ideas? Thanks!

>

>Lisa



---



>Lisa

>I've just checked the Diccionario de la Real Academia and it says the origin

>of "gringo" is "griego", though why they should choose the Greeks as a

>perjorative term for those Yankee chaps is beyond me. I think I've heard of

>another origin of the term but my brain just won't let me at it. If it pops

>up out of the unconscious I'll send it on.

>

>Tim (el gringo)



---



>Lisa wrote:

>>>We're having a small "debate" here regarding

>>>where the word "gringo" came from... We all agree on

>>>the "green go home" part but not on what the word



>>Tim wrote:

>>I've just checked the Diccionario de la Real

>>Academia and it says the origin of "gringo" is

>>"griego", though why they should choose the

>>Greeks as a perjorative term for those Yankee

>>chaps is beyond me.

>

>By analogy I should think.

>

>Here is what I found in Breve diccionario etimologico de la lengua

>castellana:

>

>GRINGO, 1765-83. Se aplico primeramente a la lengua y luego al que la

>hablaba. Es alteracion de griego en el sentido de lenguaje incomprehensible,

>1615, valor que en Espana se dio por antonomasia al nombre de la lengua de

>Grecia, como resultado indirecto de la costumbre de mencionarla junto con el

>latin, y de la doctrina observada por la Iglesia de que el griego no era

>necesario para la erudicion catolica.

>

>The Moliner goes much on the same line:

>GRINGO. (Alter. de GRIEGO, lengua considerada como extrana).

>1) lenguaje ininteligible

>2) (despectivo) extranjero; especialmente ingles

>3) (Hispam) Norteamericano de los Estados Unidos

>



---



>Green grow the rashes oh (from a popular song of the Mexican War era,

>originally Scottish).

>



---



>I have always heard that gringo was from the song "Green grow the rashes oh,

>" popular in the 1840s.



---



>The word "gringo" is commonly used in Mexico to designate a U.S. citizen,

>instead of the more formal "estadoounidense".

>

>It has also been used in other countries in Latin America (Argentina, Brazil

>, others?). The word might have its origin in one or more of the following

>3 theories:

>

>    1.   1765

>        In line with what has already been said by Tim, Manon and

>Steve, several dictionaries indicate that the word "gringo" already existed

>in Spain around 1765, it was derived from "griego" (Greek), and it was used

>to denote foreigners. Apparently, it is no longer used in Spain with this

>meaning.

>

>    2.   1847-1860

>        As it has already been stated by Paul (what are *rashes*?

>anyway), during the Mexican-American War in 1847 and in the decade and a

>half before 1860, the song "Green Grow the Lilacs" was a sentimental

>favorite all over the U.S., and especially among soldiers. Supposedly

>"gringo" is a contraction of the first two words of that song:

>

>        GREEN GROW THE LILACS

>

>Green grow the lilacs, all sparkling with dew;

>I'm lonely, my darling, since parting from you.

>But by our next meeting I hope to prove true,

>And change the green lilacs to the red, white and blue.

>

>I passed my love's window, both early and late,

>The look that she gave me, it made my heart ache.

>Oh the look that she gave me was painful to see,

>For she loves another one better than me.

>

>I wrote her a letter all wet with tears,

>She sent me an answer confirming my fears,

>Saying , 'keep your love letters and I will keep mine,

>Just you write to your love and I'll write to mine."

>

>I once had a sweetheart, but now I have none,

>Since she's gone and left me, I care not for one.

>Since she's gone and left me, contended I'll be,

>For she loves another one better than me.

>

>

>    3.   1916

>        From the color of the uniforms of the members of the

>punitive expedition that went into Mexico pursuing revolutionary leader

>Franciso Villa ('Pancho Villa') in 1916. According to this theory the

>people would chant to the soldiers: Green go home!

>



---



>Wasn't that song Green grow the rushes oh -- at least that's how

>I remember it. It was sort of a counting song, with a few Christian

>overtones the way I learned it as a kid -- it started out:

>

>I'll sing you one-o

>Green grow the rushes-o

>What is your one-o

>One is one and all alone and never more shall be so

>I'll sing you two-o

>Green grow the rushes-o



>And so on.



---



>In article <<951030.193522.55681[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSF.UNIZAR.ES>, Tim wrote:





>> Lisa

>> I've just checked the Diccionario de la Real

>> Academia and it says the origin of "gringo" is

>> "griego", though why they should choose the

>> Greeks as a perjorative term for those Yankee

>> chaps is beyond me. I think I've heard of another

>> origin of the term but my brain just won't let me

>> at it. If it pops up out of the unconscious I'll

>> send it on.

>>

>> Tim (el gringo)

>

>I always assumed that it was from the Spanish equivalent of the phrase,

>"What're those Yanquis saying? It's Greek to me."

>



---



>In article <<951030.193522.55681[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSF.UNIZAR.ES>, Tim wrote:



>>

>> Lisa

>> I've just checked the Diccionario de la Real

>> Academia and it says the origin of "gringo" is

>> "griego", though why they should choose the

>> Greeks as a perjorative term for those Yankee

>> chaps is beyond me. I think I've heard of another

>> origin of the term but my brain just won't let me

>> at it. If it pops up out of the unconscious I'll

>> send it on.

>>

>> Tim (el gringo)

>

>I always assumed that it was from the Spanish equivalent of the phrase,

>"What're those Yanquis saying? It's Greek to me."



---



>>

>As per the Diccionario Enciclopedico Salvat de la Lengua Espa~nola a Gringo

>or Gringa (fem.) despective expression meaning "foreigner", especially the

>English, and in general anyone not speaking the Spanish language. As an

>Americanism it is also applied to call a "very white and blond person"

>usualy in diminutive and as an expression of affection. Also means "Greek"

>as an intelligible language. Hablar en Gringo = Hablar en Griego

>For ethimology please consider the similarity of Gringo with Griego.

>



---



>I asked other members of the department if they

>had any idea of the origin of "gringo" and the

>commonly held opinion was that it was one of those

>words that is of folk etymology, that is, that

>there is no knowledge of the true origin, only

>about 500 different possible origins.

>

>Tim.



---



>>Green grow the rashes oh (from a popular song of the Mexican War era,

>>originally Scottish).

>>

>

>Should be "the rushes" - but apart from that you're right. I think the song

>is attributed to my national poet, Robert Burns, but then loads of songs are

>attributed to him, sometimes wrongly. Auld Lang Syne, for instance, which

>was written by a poet name of Robert Ayton and subsequently adapted by Burns

>.



---



>>Hi everybody

>I am fascinated by discussion about gringo. Never suspected it could be so

>interesting.

>Ricardo Alfaro's Diccionario de Anglicismos mentions "Green grows the grass

>in

>Ireland" etc., and it adds -- <Oh I hate not putting accents, so I write

>capitals instead> "Si este origen es verIdico por lo que hace a MExico, deja

>sin

>explicar la existencia del vocablo en la AmErica meridional, ya que SalvA lo

>cataloga en su Diccionario, editado en 1846, antes de que estallara la

>guerra

><de 1847>".

>

>Reference to "gringo" in J. Corominas' <Complete> Diccionario CrItico

>EtimolOgico is too long to be copied here (maybe I need a scanner!), but

>please

>look for it (gringo, not the scanner) under GRIEGO. It is really interesting

>--

>GRIEGO, 'lenguaje incomprensible' , valor que en Espana se diO <sic> por

>antonomasia al nombre de la lengua de Grecia, como resultado indirecto de la

>costumbre de mencionarla junto con el latin, y de la doctrina observada por

>la

>Iglesia de que el griego no era necesario para la erudiciOn catOlica...

>Well, I am sorry, I suppose many people interested will not read Spanish...

>Corominas goes on putting many examples of evolution from GRIEGO to GRINGO,

>going back much before 1847... as far as the 18th century... "gringos are

>called in MAlaga the foreigners, who have a certain kind of accent..., and

>in

>Madrid they give the same name particularly to Irish people..."...

>EstebAnez CalderOn = "not a few gringos and foreigners"

>Pardo BazAn = "mAs vale una chula que treinta gringas"

>BretOn de los Herreros = Do I speak Latin or GRINGO? <sic sic sic>

>Well, excuses for my quick translation of some little fragments into English

>.

>But I like this link between Corominas' dictionary and Stepehn A. Carter's

>remark: <I always assumed that it was from the Spanish equivalent of the

>phrase, "What're those Yanquis saying? It's Greek to me." This "It's Greek

>to

>me" seems to come from the tunnel of old times...

>But after all, maybe gringo has two or three different fathers and mothers..

>.

>Salud for all them.



---



>Paul's explanation is the one I've always heard.

>My mother's folks were Cuban and they used to say the son was popular during

>the Spanish American War. Not impossible of course...



---



>> The word "gringo" is commonly used in Mexico to designate a U.S. citizen,

>> instead of the more formal "estadoounidense".

>>

>> It has also been used in other countries in Latin America (Argentina,

>> Brazil, others?). `

>

>Until the mid '40's it was a derogatory term in Costa Rica. Later it became

>just a synonym for American. Now it includes almost any English speaker --

>to the dismay of the thousands of Canadians who visit here-- or any tall,

>blond, blue-eyed person --to the dismay of the thousands of non-English

>speakers who fit into the stereotype!

>

>Jeanina



---



>>As it has already been stated by Paul (what are *rashes*?

>>anyway), during the Mexican-American War in 1847 and in the decade and a

>>half before 1860, the song "Green Grow the Lilacs" was a sentimental

>>favorite all over the U.S., and especially among soldiers. Supposedly

>>"gringo" is a contraction of the first two words of that song:

>>

>>        GREEN GROW THE LILACS

>>

>>Green grow the lilacs, all sparkling with dew;

>>I'm lonely, my darling, since parting from you.

>

>Whatever the source of the word "gringo", the song you quote is completely

>different from the Scottish song "Green grow the rushes O" mentioned by Paul



---



>Gringos is a most useful word, in my experience, I hate

>identifying myself as Norte Americano. But one must remember, as I did not,

>not to use it in Iberia. I remember the difficulty people had in a small

>town in Spain (on the Border, I spoke Portuguese) trying to figure out

>exactly what I had called myself!! (Um estrangeiro loco!) Paul



---



>Indeed, I stand corrected. It is "green grow the lilacs." Paul



---



>> Whatever the source of the word "gringo", the song you quote is completely

>> different from the Scottish song "Green grow the rushes O" mentioned by

>>Paul.

>

>After suffering cold sweats and trembling and undergoing therapy with my

>counsellor, I see that LANTRA is back in action. Funny how addictive this

>virtual talking shop has become. By the way, the commonly held belief in

>this department about the origin of gringo is that there is no solid

>explanation. It is one of these folk etymological beasties, like "O.K.".

>However, if I had to bet on the most likely origin, I'd go for griego

>(although here in Spain they say hablar en chino when talking about

>something incomprehensible)

>

>Tim (with that LANTRA monkey on his back)



---



>Tim wrote:

>>

>>...By the way, the commonly held belief in this department

>>about theorigin of gringo is that there is no solid explanation.

>>It is one of these folk etymological beasties, like "O.K.".

>

>Right. As a matter of fact, the "griego" etymology which is mentioned in

>Mari'a Moliner and in previous editions of the Diccionario de la Real

>Academia was removed form the latest DRAE (21st edition).

>

>The Academy's entry for gringo used to start: (De _griego_)

>The entry in DRAE XXI (1992) starts: (De etim. disc.)

>



---



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 12:25:10 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gringos (fwd)



I have no sources (I forget where I heard this), but I have heard that it

came from "Green go!", a message to the soldiers to get off of their

land. I have never believed this version 100%, but I thought I'd share!



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:09:34 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



This reminds me of the other night when my 4-year-old son, frustrated with

trying to open a straw in a restaurant, suddently came out with "goddam!", much

to the shock of the elderly couple in the booth next to us. My unthinking

response was to say "WHAT did you say?", after which he gladly repeated

himself. I quit letting him watch one of his favorite movies, Forrest Gump,

for awhile. It's hard being a linguist and also being expected to instill

society's taboos in your child. E.g. at his preschool he can't use the common

household term "butt" but must say "fanny" instead.



 Ellen Johnson (hey! I'm almost caught up on my mail)

     ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



>From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 13-NOV-1995 09:42:40.07

>Subj: RE: Political Blunder

>

>On Mon, 13 Nov 1995, Sonja Lanehart wrote:

>>

>> I still don't understand why the senator felt it necessary to repeat

>> what the caller said. If he really did hear it as a racial slur I don't

>> see why he would be so eager to repeat something like that--especially

>> on a radio talk show where so many people could hear it. I also don't

>> understand how repeating the slur was a way of reprimanding the caller.

>> It seems a better rebuke would have been enlightening the caller about

>> the inappropriateness of such a slur.

>

>Granted, there are people--many people--for whom the word "nigger" is so

>painful and invidious that they find it socially inappropriate for anyone

>to utter it under ANY circumstances; for such persons, even repeating the

>word with ironic intent (as I believe that Sen. Ford claims he thought he

>was doing) would be considered socially inappropriate. On the other hand,

>I can imagine myself in a situation in which I thought that someone had

>used a phrase containing the invidious word in question and in which I

>would be so shocked that I might conceivably repeat it back to the

>utterer--my voice (I would hope) dripping with irony. For me, whenever I

>hear someone use "nigger" in a "normal" way I am left virtually

>speechless; sputtering with rage; conversationally inept. I agree that

>there would certainly have been better ways for Sen. Ford to have handled

>the situation. What I am maintaining is that, under the circumstances, it

>could well have been an honest strategic conversational blunder brought

>on partly by shock and partly by a desire to reprimand a constituent

>without seeming too impolitic. I would hate to have to be held

>responsible for all of my worst conversational missteps, and I think that

>it is wrong simply to assume that the phrase is one that Sen Ford

>approves of or uses regularly in conversation, or even that it indicates

>racial bigotry on his part. As I understand it, he has given a public

>explanation for his remark which contains an implicit apology and an

>expression of abhorrence for the phrase in question. Given the facts as

>they have been reported to me, I'd be willing to accept his explanation.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:13:41 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Political Blunder



> E.g. at his preschool he can't use the common

> household term "butt" but must say "fanny" instead.



Just make sure to break him of this habit before he goes

to England 8-).



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 15:07:11 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)



Great story! Did the E A Newsletter present it as a joke or as a

real experience?

> >

> >        At a lecture on linguistics, the speaker suggested

> >    that in English there wasn't the opposite of a double

> >    negative, whereby two affirmatives resulted in a negative.

> >    Someone from the audience called out "Yeah, right!" which

> >    brought down the house.

> >

> >    -quoted in the Electronic AIR Newsletter

> >

> >

>

> Wayne Glowka







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 16:33:45 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)



Here we go again. Some of you will remember this exchange from not that long

ago:



[ADS posting, 11 Oct. 1994]

Relevant true story: At a major international conference, a pompous

speaker droned on and on to a packed crowd. After what seemed an

eternity, he finally built to his point, declaring: "In English, for

example, there is not a single example of a double positive which means

its negative." At this point, the noted Princeton philosopher, Saul

Kripke, rose from his seat near the back of the audience and shouted;

"SURE, SURE!" The speaker has not been seen much since.



                -- Jim Beniger

                  University of Southern California



============================

prompting this response:





I don't know if the story is apocryphal, but I've always heard it cited

(including every time I have talked about "logical" double negation before an

audience containing philosophers) along the following lines:



   [Speaker] "...and while two negations often cancel out to an affirmative,

    there is no known attestation of two affirmatives reducing to a

    negative."

   [Sidney Morgenbesser, in a loud sotto voce] "Yeah, yeah."



I've come across the same anecdote a few times in print since including it in

my 1989 book "A Natural History of Negation" (p. 554) and in my 1991 CLS

paper "Duplex Negatio Affirmat...: The Economy of Double Negation" (plug,

plug) and each time the attribution was to Morgenbesser. From what I've heard

of Morgenbesser, master of the rapier-like counterexample through many decades

at Columbia, and what I know of Kripke, the standard version of the anecdote

appears more likely. But vas I dere, Charley? No.



Larry Horn

=========================

Since then, it's made the e-rounds a couple of times and appeared, in two

different version, in the Times "On Language" column, once introduced by

Safire and once by someone else. Neiman-Marcus cookie recipe, move over!



    --Larry (today)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:01:51 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Xmas pronouns



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 16-Nov-1995 05:01pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: Xmas pronouns





How would you parse "God rest ye merry gentlemen"? so that {ye} is a nominal

plural rather than dative/accus as object of {bless}?



[May] God [grant] rest [to] ye, merry gentlemen" is my gloss of the hymn, but

that leaves problems still. Is this a case of confused case marking by

Victorian pseudo-medievals or what?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs







Received: 16-Nov-1995 05:01pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:18:13 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Xmas pronouns



Subj:  Xmas pronouns







>How would you parse "God rest ye merry gentlemen"? so that {ye} is a nominal

>plural rather than dative/accus as object of {bless}?



In an old-fashioned Reed & Kellogg diagram, "rest" is a transitive verb which

takes both a direct object, "ye" [yes, it should be objective "you," but

allowances must be made for confusion on the archaisers' part] and an

object(ive) complement, "merry, " while "gentlemen" is a vocative, outside the

structure of the main sentence. The lack of a third-person singular marker on

"rest" indicates a hortatory subjunctive.



The punctuation in this analysis: "God rest you/ye merry, Gentlemen!

                  Let nothing *you* dismay. . . ."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 17:55:26 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Don Nelson puts behind



Does this sound odd to anyone else?



Thursday, NY Times, B8



    This is called closure in sports, and Nelson seemed as ready

    as anyone to put behind this sordid chapter in his otherwise

    sparkling career.



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 20:39:54 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: gringo



The version I heard of the origin of 'gringo' is Robert Burns' "Green Grow

the Rashes,"

the dirty version, which Irish-americans in the U.S. Army during the Mexican

war liked

to sing. It is certainly the type of song we would have sung during my

military days, had any of us been literate enough to know it.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 21:38:25 -0500

From:  "Allan M. Siegal" <siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



On Nov 16, 1995 17:55:26, 'Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>'

wrote:





>oes this sound odd to anyone else?

>

>Thursday, NY Times, B8

>

>This is called closure in sports, and Nelson seemed as ready

>as anyone to put behind this sordid chapter in his otherwise

>sparkling career.



=---------------

To me, alas.

--

Allan M. Siegal........................siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com

Assistant Managing Editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 16 Nov 1995 22:29:07 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ?Seven Ways from Sunday (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 1995 11:56:41 -0600

From: Nelle Williams <hzz001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lion.connect.more.net>

To: STUMPERS-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?Seven Ways from Sunday



We are trying to locate info on the expression "Seven ways from Sunday".

Have checked numerous sources - quotation books, proverb books, books on

Americanisms, and Stumpers archives. Patron would like to know how it

originated and what it means. Any help would be appreciated.





Nelle Williams          email hzz001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.connect.more.net

300 Main St.           Voice 417-623-7953 Fax 417-624-5217

Joplin, MO 64801         Reference Librarian, Joplin Public Library



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 1995 to 16 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 17 messages totalling 453 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd) (2)

 2. Don Nelson puts behind

 3. Fixinto

 4. POETS day (8)

 5. Ruby Tuesdays (4)

 6. Bounced Mail



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:10:56 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)



>Great story! Did the E A Newsletter present it as a joke or as a

>real experience?

>> >

>> >        At a lecture on linguistics, the speaker suggested

>> >    that in English there wasn't the opposite of a double

>> >    negative, whereby two affirmatives resulted in a negative.

>> >    Someone from the audience called out "Yeah, right!" which

>> >    brought down the house.

>> >

>> >    -quoted in the Electronic AIR Newsletter

>> >

>> >

>>

>> Wayne Glowka

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



I don't know the context. I was passed the message by a librarian who got

it off one of the lists she subscribes to.



Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:15:16 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fw: HUMOR: Thought for Wednesday, Nov 15, 1995 (fwd)



I passed Larry Horn's comments back to the librarian and told her to send

them to the list from which she got the story--sort of reverse folklore

(with an /l/?).





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 08:39:52 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



It sounds odd to me, and my first thought was, quite simply, that I had to

move 'behind' behind: 'to put this sordid ... career behind.' Then I

noticed that the ellipsis of the locative (usually obligatory in English

with 'put,' e.g., '*I put the groceries,' although happy in most other

languages) is clearly involved.



I think there is an odd distribution which has in part to do with the

weight on the right. Look at the following:



1) Nelson put this chapter behind him.



2) ?Nelson put this chapter behind 0.



3) ??Nelson put behind him this chapter.



4) *Nelson put behind 0 this chapter.



Even in a truncated sentence, then, when the material to the right is not

heavy, the 'put' with locative elided is still worst, but all the

dispreferred above are better if the material to the right is 'heavy,' as

in the original example.



How about the other funny business in this sentence? Since the 'him' (in 1

above, a completely grammatical sentence) is a clause-mate to 'Nelson,' why

isn't it reflexive? *Nelson put this chapter behind himself. Could this odd

fact have anything to do with the fact that the locative is predicted by

'put' but here has an obligatory temporal metaphoric reading?



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>







>Does this sound odd to anyone else?

>

>Thursday, NY Times, B8

>

>    This is called closure in sports, and Nelson seemed as ready

>    as anyone to put behind this sordid chapter in his otherwise

>    sparkling career.

>

>Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 11:32:24 -0500

From:  "Mary E. Zeigler" <engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GSUSGI2.GSU.EDU>

Subject: Fixinto



We at Georgia State are working on the use of "fixinto" and her family in

Metropolitan Atlanta. Can you give us leads on historical studies as

well as more recent studies--impirical or otherwise-- on this term?



We have Marvin Ching's Memphis study and references to Guy Bailey's Texas

study. Any and all others are welcome.



Thanks.





Mary





Mary B. Zeigler

Georgia State University

Department of English

engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsusgI2.gsu.edu

Atlanta, GA 30303

(404) 651-2900



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 12:41:11 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: POETS day



Here's a very serious question for the group:



I dated an Englishman for about two years,

who said that in his old workplace in Sheffield,

they used to call Friday "POETS" day,

as an abbreviation for "Piss Off Early,

Tomorrow's Saturday."



Is this more widespread than I've assumed?

Do others among you know (or even use)

this expression?



Curious in Chicago,



Kate



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:03:31 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



> I dated an Englishman for about two years,

> who said that in his old workplace in Sheffield,

> they used to call Friday "POETS" day,

> as an abbreviation for "Piss Off Early,

> Tomorrow's Saturday."

>

> Is this more widespread than I've assumed?

> Do others among you know (or even use)

> this expression?



I first heard it a good many years ago as "Piss On Everybody, Today's

Saturday." Later I heard people argue that it was a Friday expression,

not a Saturday expression, with "Tomorrow's" rather than "Today's." I

think maybe I've also heard "Piss Off Early" instead of "Piss On Everybody."



Isn't this expression what the Poets restaurant chain is referring to? I

had always assumed that the name of the restaurant was a take-off on

Fridays, a similar kind of restaurant that appeared shortly before Poets

did. Now that I think about it, I'm not positive that Poets is a chain.

But I assumed when it opened in Jackson (MS) fifteen or twenty years ago

that the name was an answer to Fridays, the chain that is really named

TGIFriday, I think. Fridays may be a regional chain, of course.



Getting back to the answer to your question: Yes, I've heard POETS, with

at least approximately the meaning you mentioned, almost as long as I've

heard the expression TGIF.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 13:49:44 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



>Isn't this expression what the Poets restaurant chain is referring to? I

>had always assumed that the name of the restaurant was a take-off on

>Fridays, a similar kind of restaurant that appeared shortly before Poets

>did. Now that I think about it, I'm not positive that Poets is a chain.

>But I assumed when it opened in Jackson (MS) fifteen or twenty years ago

>that the name was an answer to Fridays, the chain that is really named

>TGIFriday, I think. Fridays may be a regional chain, of course.



That's interesting.

I am familiar with Fridays,

or TGIFriday('s?), but not Poets.







;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:01:56 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



> That's interesting.

> I am familiar with Fridays,

> or TGIFriday('s?), but not Poets.



I'm glad to know that I didn't just imagine that Fridays was a chain.

After sending that posting, I started wondering whether I might be

confusing it with Ruby Tuesdays.



Back when TGIF and POETS were popular labels/greetings/whatevers, another

one was SHIT (Sure Happy It's Thursday). I have a feeling it might have

been local, however.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 14:52:11 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Ruby Tuesdays



> I'm glad to know that I didn't just imagine that Fridays was a chain.

> After sending that posting, I started wondering whether I might be

> confusing it with Ruby Tuesdays.

>

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



What are Ruby Tuesdays. I've only heard it used in the song by the

Stones.





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:01:58 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



>Back when TGIF and POETS were popular labels/greetings/whatevers, another

>one was SHIT (Sure Happy It's Thursday). I have a feeling it might have

>been local, however.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



Well, I can't vouch for its widespread usage

since I've never heard that one, either!



The things ya learn... boy, I'll tell ya.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 16:11:37 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ruby Tuesdays



>> I'm glad to know that I didn't just imagine that Fridays was a chain.

>> After sending that posting, I started wondering whether I might be

>> confusing it with Ruby Tuesdays.

>>

>>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

>What are Ruby Tuesdays. I've only heard it used in the song by the

>Stones.

>



Ruby Tuesday(s) is another restaurant chain,

in much the same genre as TGIFriday(s),

Bennigan's, and evidently, Poets.  =^]



Incidentally, I highly recommend the

Monte Cristo sandwich at Bennigan's.

It's a heart attack on a plate, but

taste is a pretty high priority in my book.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 18:13:23 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ruby Tuesdays



> What are Ruby Tuesdays. I've only heard it used in the song by the

> Stones.



A chain of restaurants that I *think* was started in Knoxville in the

early '70s and which then spread throughout the Southeast and maybe

farther. The reason I'm not positive it started in Knoxville is that

my aging brain may be confusing the origin of Ruby Tuesdays with the

origin of the song "Third-Rate Romance," which allegedly was written

in Ruby Tuesdays in Knoxville. Or maybe I'm confused about all of that.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 19:17:21 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ruby Tuesdays



Yes, NAtalie and others, Ruby T's started in Knoxville. That part of your

brain is still okay, Natlie.



BTW, I had never heard of either POETS or the slogans for which it is an

acronym until this discussion started.



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 19:57:20 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: POETS day



On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> they used to call Friday "POETS" day, as an abbreviation for "Piss Off

> Early, Tomorrow's Saturday." Is this more widespread than I've

> assumed? Do others among you know (or even use) this expression?



I heard it (and remember seeing it embroidered on men's ties) back in

Grand Rapids, MI, as "Piss On Everything, Tomorrow's Saturday."

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 20:42:41 -0500

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> Back when TGIF and POETS were popular labels/greetings/whatevers, another

> one was SHIT (Sure Happy It's Thursday). I have a feeling it might have

> been local, however.



Depends on where "local" was, Natalie. I heard it in Ann Arbor 25-30

years ago, though I have no memory of POETS.



H Stephen STRAIGHT            Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics  LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric   VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 20:21:14 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: POETS day



> > one was SHIT (Sure Happy It's Thursday). I have a feeling it might have

> > been local, however.

>

> Depends on where "local" was, Natalie. I heard it in Ann Arbor 25-30

> years ago, though I have no memory of POETS.



That does extend my concept of "local" a bit. I first heard it in either

Mississippi or Tennessee.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 17 Nov 1995 20:22:37 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from TOE.TOWSON.EDU

> To: Natalie Maynor <MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>9641 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

>------------------- Message in error (34 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Fri, 17 Nov 1995 21:00:06 -0500 (EST)

> From: "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

> Subject: Re: POETS day

>

> Subj: RE: POETS day

>

> On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:

> > Back when TGIF and POETS were popular labels/greetings/whatevers, another

> > one was SHIT (Sure Happy It's Thursday). I have a feeling it might have

> > been local, however.

>

> >>Depends on where "local" was, Natalie. I heard it in Ann Arbor 25-30

> >>years ago, though I have no memory of POETS.

>

>   But just how "local" could that be when I remember my father (Navy)

> telling it to me, his teenage daughter, in Washington, D.C., in 1955?

> [O, for the days that the s-word was daring!]

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Nov 1995 to 17 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 144 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Don Nelson puts behind (2)

 2. Fixinto

 3. Monte Christos (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Nov 1995 15:30:17 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> How about the other funny business in this sentence? Since the 'him' (in 1

> above, a completely grammatical sentence) is a clause-mate to 'Nelson,' why

> isn't it reflexive? *Nelson put this chapter behind himself. Could this odd

> fact have anything to do with the fact that the locative is predicted by

> 'put' but here has an obligatory temporal metaphoric reading?



Dennis,



It's not reflexive because the action is not directed toward Nelson,

himself. Rather the action is directed and focused upon the "chapter".

So, in that regard, the sentence seems to be correct. Still, it does

read a little weird, but I wonder if I see as such due to Beth's initial

post. Did she taint my perception of what may simply be a strange

sounding sentence?



Jus' wondrin'



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Nov 1995 15:34:00 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fixinto



On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Mary E. Zeigler wrote:



> We at Georgia State are working on the use of "fixinto" and her family in

> Metropolitan Atlanta. Can you give us leads on historical studies as

> well as more recent studies--impirical or otherwise-- on this term?



Mary,



Why "fixinto," why one word? Where did you get this spelling? I'm

interested simply because it would seem to run the separate words

together and I very much see the term as two words--fixin' to . . .

whatever one is fixin' to. Just curious.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Nov 1995 14:33:30 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Monte Christos



On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> Incidentally, I highly recommend the

> Monte Cristo sandwich at Bennigan's.



1) Is this named for the Count? Why??

2) How does Bennigan's (who?) compare to the Monte Christo sandwich in

the Tiki Room at Disneyland?



--Moonhawk



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Nov 1995 17:39:15 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



Bob,



Can't buy it. Clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives.



For example, in 'John moved the skunk away from himself,' the skunk is the

target of the moving (not John), and 'him' would not be coreferential.



I still find it odd and still think that the metaphoric sense is related to

the variation.



Compare

John put the skunk behind himself



with



John put the argument behind him.



I can't reverse the pronouns (and still keep the coreferential).



Dennis



>On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>

>> How about the other funny business in this sentence? Since the 'him' (in 1

>> above, a completely grammatical sentence) is a clause-mate to 'Nelson,' why

>> isn't it reflexive? *Nelson put this chapter behind himself. Could this odd

>> fact have anything to do with the fact that the locative is predicted by

>> 'put' but here has an obligatory temporal metaphoric reading?

>

>Dennis,

>

>It's not reflexive because the action is not directed toward Nelson,

>himself. Rather the action is directed and focused upon the "chapter".

>So, in that regard, the sentence seems to be correct. Still, it does

>read a little weird, but I wonder if I see as such due to Beth's initial

>post. Did she taint my perception of what may simply be a strange

>sounding sentence?

>

>Jus' wondrin'

>

>Bob Haas

>University of North Carolina at Greensboro

>rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 18 Nov 1995 17:58:12 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Monte Christos



>On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

>> Incidentally, I highly recommend the

>> Monte Cristo sandwich at Bennigan's.

>

>1) Is this named for the Count? Why??

>2) How does Bennigan's (who?) compare to the Monte Christo sandwich in

>the Tiki Room at Disneyland?

>

>--Moonhawk

>



Count me as spelling it Monte Cristo



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FLorida

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Nov 1995 to 18 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 5 messages totalling 214 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Don Nelson puts behind (4)

 2. Fixinto



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 02:07:12 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



Dennis,



Perhaps clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives, but that's not how they

work. According to _The New Lexicon Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary_

(1992) the definition of reflexive reads: "denoting an action by the

subject upon itself, e.g. of a verb whose subject and direct object are

the same ('dressed' in 'he dressed himself'), or of a pronoun which is

the object of such a verb ('himself' in 'he dressed himself') . . . (837).



Therefore, your example doesn't quite seem to apply. In "John put the

skunk behind himself" himself is not called for. The more correct

pronoun, him, is the object of the preposition. It would seem to more

dative that accusitive, but besides worrying about the labels, it seems

to me that most readers would understand that "him" refers to John and

not the skunk. Why would he move the skunk behind itself?



Finally, John must be careful because if the skunk in question has not

been descented, John will end up washing himself in tomato juice. Not

that that particular remedy is all that effective.



While your ideas about clause-mates are interesting, I'm not quite ready

to buy them. I would enjoy a response, though.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu





On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> Can't buy it. Clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives.

>

> For example, in 'John moved the skunk away from himself,' the skunk is the

> target of the moving (not John), and 'him' would not be coreferential.



> Compare

> John put the skunk behind himself

>

> with

>

> John put the argument behind him.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 09:58:08 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



Bob,

What you call 'my idea' about clause-mates is the standard, modern

syntactic treatment. The exceptions appear to be the following:



1) So-called hypercorrect reflexives:

'He gave it to John and myself.'

I say 'so-called' since there is historical precedent for these. That is,

they appear not to be uniquely the effort of people who were beat up for

saying stuff like 'John and me went to the store' (also historically

common) and decided that oblique forms were nonstandard in general

(sometimes using nominatives, e.g., 'He gave it to John and I,' but

sometimes sensing that that is not quite the ticket and resorting to the

reflexive as a 'compromise case.'



2) Emphatics:

Who went?

It was MYSELF. (i.e., not anybody else)



3) (Mock)-deferential (usually of a 'personage'):

Who came in?

Herself.



All others seem to follow the clause-mate rule I cited earlier.

I saw myself in the mirror.

*I saw John see myself in the mirror.



So why not 'I put the glass behind myself'? I agreee that 'me' is better

(even in the coreferential sense, although I somehow feel that both are

ugly - a kind of hole in the language, or, better, a site of competing

norms, at least in my grammar).



One treatment of these forms in current theory is to call the troublesome

part a 'small clause,' a syntactic unit which carries some of the features

of big clauses. 'We considered the syntactician silly,' for example, has a

'small clause' complement to the verb 'concider' - 'the synbtactician [be]

silly.' From this point of view, 'me' is not a clause-mate of 'I' in 'I put

the glass behind me' because of the 'small clause' status of 'the glass

[be] behind me.' Those who want more excitement with small clauses, might

start on p. 324 of Radford's Transformational Grammar: A First Course, CUP,

1988 as a jump-off point. I find it interesting that the issue is not

resolved in theoretical grammar and is, at the same time, a troublesome

site for intuitions.



Dennis (himself) Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>









>Dennis,

>

>Perhaps clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives, but that's not how they

>work. According to _The New Lexicon Webster's Encyclopedic Dictionary_

>(1992) the definition of reflexive reads: "denoting an action by the

>subject upon itself, e.g. of a verb whose subject and direct object are

>the same ('dressed' in 'he dressed himself'), or of a pronoun which is

>the object of such a verb ('himself' in 'he dressed himself') . . . (837).

>

>Therefore, your example doesn't quite seem to apply. In "John put the

>skunk behind himself" himself is not called for. The more correct

>pronoun, him, is the object of the preposition. It would seem to more

>dative that accusitive, but besides worrying about the labels, it seems

>to me that most readers would understand that "him" refers to John and

>not the skunk. Why would he move the skunk behind itself?

>

>Finally, John must be careful because if the skunk in question has not

>been descented, John will end up washing himself in tomato juice. Not

>that that particular remedy is all that effective.

>

>While your ideas about clause-mates are interesting, I'm not quite ready

>to buy them. I would enjoy a response, though.

>

>Bob Haas

>University of North Carolina at Greensboro

>rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

>

>

>On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>

>> Can't buy it. Clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives.

>>

>> For example, in 'John moved the skunk away from himself,' the skunk is the

>> target of the moving (not John), and 'him' would not be coreferential.

>

>> Compare

>> John put the skunk behind himself

>>

>> with

>>

>> John put the argument behind him.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 11:41:27 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



On Sun, 19 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> Those who want more excitement with small clauses, might

> start on p. 324 of Radford's Transformational Grammar: A First Course, CUP,

> 1988 as a jump-off point. I find it interesting that the issue is not

> resolved in theoretical grammar and is, at the same time, a troublesome

> site for intuitions.

>

> Dennis (himself) Preston

> <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



Dennis,



Thanks for the info.



Bob



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 10:04:56 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fixinto



I always heard it among Arkie folk as 'fixinta' /fIksInt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/. "I'm fixinta

go to the store."



On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Bob Haas wrote:



> On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Mary E. Zeigler wrote:

>

> > We at Georgia State are working on the use of "fixinto" and her family in

> > Metropolitan Atlanta. Can you give us leads on historical studies as

> > well as more recent studies--impirical or otherwise-- on this term?

>

> Mary,

>

> Why "fixinto," why one word? Where did you get this spelling? I'm

> interested simply because it would seem to run the separate words

> together and I very much see the term as two words--fixin' to . . .

> whatever one is fixin' to. Just curious.

>

> Bob Haas

> University of North Carolina at Greensboro

> rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 22:29:47 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



To:   IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU" "Multiple recipients of list ADS-L"

CC:

Subj:  RE: Don Nelson puts behind



Has no one considered "put behind" as an old-fashioned discontinuous

phrasal verb, with the approximate meaning (it's late) `renounce.'



  X [put . . . behind X-1] Y



Or something along those lines.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Nov 1995 to 19 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 27 messages totalling 719 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Don Nelson puts behind

 2. PC Language (15)

 3. Monte Christos

 4. Third-Rate Romance (4)

 5. More on "n* rich"

 6. Randy Roberts' e-address (5)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 19 Nov 1995 23:53:02 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



In connection with the Great (Haas/Preston) Debate on clausemate

non-reflexives--there's another factor here. At least since G. Lakoff's Pro-

nouns and Reference (1968 or so), there has been a recognition that not all

nominals coreferential with a clausemate end up reflexive, even optionally.

Lakoff's example (one of them, anyway) was "John saw a snake near

him/*himself." One variable is whether the second (target) NP is an argument

of the verb, as objects are but locatives like 'near NP' aren't. Kuno has an

extensive helpful treatment from the point of view of (one brand of)

functional syntax in his book of the same name (Functional Syntax, that is,

1987), trying to work out the conditions under which we say "He pulled the

coat around him" and those under which we say "...around himself", both of

course taken as involving coference between puller and pullee. In this

perspective, Coach Nelson's putting his Warrior days behind him (and not behind

himself) is fine.

   Incidentally, one variety of clausemate non-argument non-reflexive was

discussed on our list not that long ago:

  I'm gonna get me a beer.

  I bought me a new guitar.

  Get you a copper kettle, get you a copper coil...

Of course, justifying the description of these benefactives as non-arguments

is another can of worms, one far be it from me to open.



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 08:57:17 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: PC Language



After reading two student term papers on politically correct language (one

on parody PC and one on serious PC), I am having a hard time distinguishing

between parody and serious intent.



My question, however, has to do with who makes up the body of PC activists.

 College professors? Feminists? Special ed teachers? Minority activists?

 Males who want to work at Hooters? The super-ego?



Where does this euphemistic/revisionist energy come from?



PC-challenged,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 10:11:26 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Philip Roth remarked twenty years ago that serious satire was impossible

post-Nixon, so it's no surprise that you find it impossible to distinguish

between parody and support. Just remember, it all began with "I am not a

crook!" :-)



Happy Turkey Day!            David Bergdahl

                    BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 09:38:13 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>After reading two student term papers on politically correct language (one

>on parody PC and one on serious PC), I am having a hard time distinguishing

>between parody and serious intent.

>

>My question, however, has to do with who makes up the body of PC activists.

> College professors? Feminists? Special ed teachers? Minority activists?

> Males who want to work at Hooters? The super-ego?

>

>Where does this euphemistic/revisionist energy come from?



Unfortunately, I have no conclusive academic answer,

but I can say from experience that on my campus

the most regular users of PC language (with

serious intent) are administrators in the

Campus Housing department.



Buzzwords like "diversity," "multi-culturalism,"

and many, many others never saw the light of

day on this campus until Housing used them in

promotional materials around 1990-91.



I don't really know the significance of

Campus Housing's role in revisionism,

but I do know that ever since, PC language

has been adopted by almost the entire

administration.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 09:41:23 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Monte Christos



>On Fri, 17 Nov 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

>> Incidentally, I highly recommend the

>> Monte Cristo sandwich at Bennigan's.

>

>1) Is this named for the Count? Why??

>2) How does Bennigan's (who?) compare to the Monte Christo sandwich in

>the Tiki Room at Disneyland?





Sorry, but I have no idea about either.



*sigh*



I feel so ... useless. =^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 09:44:53 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Third-Rate Romance



>origin of the song "Third-Rate Romance," which allegedly was written

>in Ruby Tuesdays in Knoxville. Or maybe I'm confused about all of that.



"Sittin' at a tiny table in a ______ restaurant"



Fill in the blank: is the word "ritzy"?



If so, could Ruby Tuesdays be described as "ritzy"?



Just curious. That's the only word in the song lyrics

I'm not sure of!



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:17:44 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>Unfortunately, I have no conclusive academic answer,

>but I can say from experience that on my campus

>the most regular users of PC language (with

>serious intent) are administrators in the

>Campus Housing department.

>

>Buzzwords like "diversity," "multi-culturalism,"

>and many, many others never saw the light of

>day on this campus until Housing used them in

>promotional materials around 1990-91.

>

>I don't really know the significance of

>Campus Housing's role in revisionism,

>but I do know that ever since, PC language

>has been adopted by almost the entire

>administration.

>

>;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

>;Kathleen M. O'Neill



Come to think of it, much of the PC activity (multiculturalism, globalism,

etc.) on our campus comes from the Student Activities Office. The housing

folks have long been into euphemism/revisionism. We can't call the dorms

anything but "residence halls." The housing director is "director of

resident life." On a related issue, we no longer have PE classes: we have

classes in "wellness." Speaking of wellness, I am going to the doctor

today for an annual check-up: our insurance program will completely cover

this examination under a "wellness benefit."



An interesting note on campus revisionism: Recently "Procurement" was

changed to "Purchasing" to avoid unsavory associations with prostitution.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 10:42:06 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>>Unfortunately, I have no conclusive academic answer,

>>but I can say from experience that on my campus

>>the most regular users of PC language (with

>>serious intent) are administrators in the

>>Campus Housing department.

>

>Come to think of it, much of the PC activity (multiculturalism, globalism,

>etc.) on our campus comes from the Student Activities Office. The housing

>folks have long been into euphemism/revisionism. We can't call the dorms

>anything but "residence halls." The housing director is "director of

>resident life." On a related issue, we no longer have PE classes: we have

>classes in "wellness." Speaking of wellness, I am going to the doctor

>today for an annual check-up: our insurance program will completely cover

>this examination under a "wellness benefit."





Exactly. We have the "Wellness Center" on campus,

and our dorms are touted as "residence halls" as well.

In fact, Campus Housing prefers to be called

"Residential Life" and I have a fabulous story from my

Housing archive of madness:



UIC just constructed a brand-new residence hall

which opened for residents in August of 1993.

That building was to be thematically grouped with

others called "Commons North" and "Commons South."

The new building is "Commons West."



Like many universities, UIC has three-letter

abbreviations for EVERYTHING (ALL), and these

buildings were abbreviated, respectively,

CON, COS, and hence, COW. Panic spread through

Housing administration. Before the grand opening

of the new building, they had officially changed

the Commons abbreviations to CMN, CMS, and CMW.



Among the given reasons for the sudden change:

they didn't want to risk offending rural students.







;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:00:49 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



Wayne Glowka wrote:



> We can't call the dorms

> anything but "residence halls."



Good heavens, what do they do to you if you slip up and call them dorms??



To my real topic: is the term "PC" still an insult? I ask because it's an

expression I've never felt comfortable with and never fully, I think,

understood.



For example, in this discussion, I kind of like some of the terms & ideas

listed as PC ("diversity," for example), and feel neutral about others

(dorm ---> residence hall, checkup--->wellness check), while others

(procurement-----> purchasing) strike me as foolish and comical.



Does this mean I'm a hopeless lefty, or what? I guess what I'm asking is

whether the term PC can only be used meaningfully within a group of

people with essentially similar political views. I don't know whether

this is the case; I'm genuinely asking.



I should add that I'm familiar with the phenomenon of the politically

narrow-minded. I recently played the role of Ruth in Pinter's _The

Homecoming._ I was criticized by a conservative religious acquintance for

playing a slut, and by a liberal acquaintance for performing in a play

she considered misogynist.



Both these readings of the play struck me as shallow and cripplingly

limited; but is one "PC" and the other not? Why? And what about my other

lefty and feminist friends who are for multi-culturalism but happen to

like Pinter? _Is_ there a clear definition of what's "PC" (and bad) and

what's not?



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:10:40 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Third-Rate Romance



> "Sittin' at a tiny table in a ______ restaurant"

>

> Fill in the blank: is the word "ritzy"?



I think the word is "ritzy."



> If so, could Ruby Tuesdays be described as "ritzy"?



Not by most people, but the questionable description might fit from

the point of view of the lyrics in that song.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 12:27:30 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

>> We can't call the dorms

>> anything but "residence halls."

>

>Good heavens, what do they do to you if you slip up and call them dorms??



If we slip up and say "dorms," we get corrected.



Here's some anti-PC language. I just encountered some female students in

my structure of English class who were sitting and smoking in the courtyard

outside the student union bulding. Conversation concerned what brands of

cigarettes I smoked before I quit 22 years ago. They wondered if I knew

about the obscene figures on the camel's back on a pack of Camels; they

then talked about penises in the clouds in some Walt Disney cartoon movies.

 Feeling a little awkward, I started to leave to come back and grade all of

these term papers, and I noted that one of them was smoking Virginia Slims.

 The young woman who also told me that a female member of the class was not

present last week because she was "on the pot" retorted, "Yes, she smokes

Vagina Slimes." I hastened away.



You've come a long way, baby.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 11:58:13 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: More on "n* rich"



   I am sending this cite along to the list only because it seems to be

   one of the earliest. It was collected by Peter Tamony.



   "In those sections of the South where the old traditions of gentle

   birth and culture still assert their ancient authority and draw the

   lines of social demarcation, there is commonly in use a vivid, brutal

   phrase to describe ostentatious display by the merely vulgar wealthy.

   The phrase is 'nigger rich.'"

     Racketeers and Their Methods (New York, 1930), page 81.





   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 12:42:05 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



> For example, in this discussion, I kind of like some of the terms & ideas

> listed as PC ("diversity," for example), and feel neutral about others

> (dorm ---> residence hall, checkup--->wellness check), while others

> (procurement-----> purchasing) strike me as foolish and comical.



Me too. As for names applied to groups of people, I try to use whatever

label I think the people I'm referring to prefer. That's not always easy

to figure out, of course.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 12:43:30 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Third-Rate Romance



> > If so, could Ruby Tuesdays be described as "ritzy"?

>

> Not by most people, but the questionable description might fit from

> the point of view of the lyrics in that song.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Replying to my own reply: Also, I think what I remember hearing is that

"Third-Rate Romance" was written at a table in Ruby Tuesdays, which does

not necessarily mean it was written ABOUT Ruby Tuesdays.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 13:10:18 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



No, Kate, there is no definition of what's "PC" because the term has

about as much semantic content as "fellow traveler" or "slut": it's

a convenient insult when people don't want to bother stating what

they object to in your position.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 14:04:17 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



For what I think is perhaps the best review and analysis of "PC language"

what happened to it, what follows from it, see Deborah Cameron's

*Verbal Hygiene*, the chapter "Civility and its discontents: language

and `political correctness'".



Great book. Bought it at the M/MLA, and read it on the way home and on into

the night.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 14:19:53 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>

> Wayne Glowka wrote:



> I noted that one of them was smoking Virginia Slims.

> The young woman who also told me that a female member of the class was not

> present last week because she was "on the pot" retorted, "Yes, she smokes

> Vagina Slimes." I hastened away.

>

> You've come a long way, baby.



Hey, remember the "Silk Cunt" episode in David Lodge's _Nice Work_?



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 14:24:42 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>>

>> Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

>> I noted that one of them was smoking Virginia Slims.

>> The young woman who also told me that a female member of the class was not

>> present last week because she was "on the pot" retorted, "Yes, she smokes

>> Vagina Slimes." I hastened away.

>>

>> You've come a long way, baby.

>

>Hey, remember the "Silk Cunt" episode in David Lodge's _Nice Work_?

>

>Jesse Sheidlower

><jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



I do not know this episode. Would you mind sharing a synopsis of it--he

asked with trepidation.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 13:40:20 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



WayneG wrote: "If we slip up and say "dorms," we get corrected."



By whom, Wayne???



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 15:12:47 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Randy Roberts' e-address



Does anyone have Randy Robers' email address handy?



thanks,

Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 15:51:29 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Randy Roberts' e-address



>

> Does anyone have Randy Robers' email address handy?



It's robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu .



In general, one can generate a list of all subscribers to

ads-l by sending the command "review ads-l" to

listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu (NOT to the ads-l list itself). One

can then scan the list for e-mail addresses. I usually

update the list about once a month in case I need stuff

like this.



I'd also point out that on a list like this, where a list

server deletes references to the original sender, it's a good

idea for each person to include his or her address in the

signature.



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 14:57:11 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Randy Roberts' e-address



> From: Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

>

> I'd also point out that on a list like this, where a list

> server deletes references to the original sender, it's a good



Listserv doesn't delete references to the original sender. Most of

us get the original sender in the 'from' line. It's your system

that's deleting that line.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 16:00:34 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



> >> Wayne Glowka wrote:

> Jesse Sheidlower wrote:



> >Hey, remember the "Silk Cunt" episode in David Lodge's _Nice Work_?

>

> I do not know this episode. Would you mind sharing a synopsis of it--he

> asked with trepidation.



Well, I've forgotten most of the details--it may be "Slick Cunt,"

for instance. But the gist is: Young female lit. theorist is hanging

around with businessman as "cultural exchange" study. Woman

explains various theory-based criticism, including misreading/puns, etc.

a la "The pen is mightier than the sword"/"The penis mightier than

the sword." Businessman thinks about this, and when they are in bed

together comes up with [n.p.i.] "Silk (or maybe Slick) Cunt," in

reference to the British brand of cigarettes Silk Cut.



I'm sure someone who's read the book more recently will correct the

details and add whatever the humorous aspects of the scene are.

I was only remarking on the parallel of sexual puns on

cigarette names. Hey, it's a cross-cultural parallel too! Anyone

need a thesis topic ? <vbg>



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 16:03:04 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Randy Roberts' e-address



Natalie Maynor writes:

> > From: Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

> >

> > I'd also point out that on a list like this, where a list

> > server deletes references to the original sender, it's a good

>

> Listserv doesn't delete references to the original sender. Most of

> us get the original sender in the 'from' line. It's your system

> that's deleting that line.



Ah, yes, quite right. I've set certain lists to a "brief" header

mode and forgotten about it.



Nonetheless, I do think it's a good idea to include one's

address in a signature anyway...



JTS

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 15:01:57 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Randy Roberts' e-address



P.S. For those of you whose systems are eating the 'from line', if you

can't convince the systems people to change that behavior, you can solve

the problem by sending this command to the listserv (not the list):



set ads-l dualhdr



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 17:39:38 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Third-Rate Romance



>"Sittin' at a tiny table in a ______ restaurant"

>

>Fill in the blank: is the word "ritzy"?

>

Kathleen: I'm 99 percent sure the word is indeed "ritzy"--I'll go home and

listen to my Amazing Rhythm Aces LP to make sure. But I'm totally ignorant

about the Ruby Tuesday connection, so I can't help you there.



Jerry Miller

millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]franklincoll.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 22:09:10 -0500

From:  Stephen <lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

>> We can't call the dorms

>> anything but "residence halls."

>

>Good heavens, what do they do to you if you slip up and call them dorms??

>

>To my real topic: is the term "PC" still an insult? I ask because it's an

>expression I've never felt comfortable with and never fully, I think,

>understood.

>

>For example, in this discussion, I kind of like some of the terms & ideas

>listed as PC ("diversity," for example), and feel neutral about others

>(dorm ---> residence hall, checkup--->wellness check), while others

>(procurement-----> purchasing) strike me as foolish and comical.

>

>Does this mean I'm a hopeless lefty, or what? I guess what I'm asking is

>whether the term PC can only be used meaningfully within a group of

>people with essentially similar political views. I don't know whether

>this is the case; I'm genuinely asking.

>

>I should add that I'm familiar with the phenomenon of the politically

>narrow-minded. I recently played the role of Ruth in Pinter's _The

>Homecoming._ I was criticized by a conservative religious acquintance for

>playing a slut, and by a liberal acquaintance for performing in a play

>she considered misogynist.

>

>Both these readings of the play struck me as shallow and cripplingly

>limited; but is one "PC" and the other not? Why? And what about my other

>lefty and feminist friends who are for multi-culturalism but happen to

>like Pinter? _Is_ there a clear definition of what's "PC" (and bad) and

>what's not?

>

>Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

>

>As a left-handed person, your use of the terms "lefty" and "hopeless

lefty" struck me as peculiar. As you used them, the terms seem to have a

somewhat negative connotation, which struck me as odd coming from someone

who seems to be concerned about political correctness. I am proud of being

a "lefty" and I certainly do not consider myself "hopeless" as a result.

What's the deal?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Nov 1995 to 20 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 21 messages totalling 809 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. PC Language (12)

 2. PC Language: Seth's List

 3. dorm

 4. PC

 5. Gettysburg

 6. SAGA

 7. Turkish Language - Melungeon question (fwd)

 8. GURT'96

 9. Turkish Language - Melungeon que

 10. Left; was PC Language



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 02:23:44 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



WAYNE GLOWKA asked:



>After reading two student term papers on politically correct language (one

>on parody PC and one on serious PC), I am having a hard time distinguishing

>between parody and serious intent.

>

>My question, however, has to do with who makes up the body of PC activists.

> College professors? Feminists? Special ed teachers? Minority activists?

> Males who want to work at Hooters? The super-ego?

>

>Where does this euphemistic/revisionist energy come from?

>

>PC-challenged,



My best recollection is that the serious pc stuff started with NOW, the National

Organization for Women in the 1970's. When they started in about

Chairman/chairperson etc. For the hardcores they started calling themselves

womyn.

Even though the Civil Rights movement pre-dated it when they began to insist on

being called black rather than Negro, and then in the late 1980's Afro-American.

This led to the other end of the spectrum like the Aryan nation and skinheads to

the reference of The Mud people.



Then we had short people (formerly known as midgets & dwarfs) transmogrified

into

"vertically challenged."



Then the serious parody (how's that for an oxymoron) began with "follically

challenged"

for those with "receding hairlines."



 Retarded people, formerly known as mongoloids now have "Downs syndrome."



Idiots who got dumped into the public school system under the Reagan

administration

are now "special education students." Geniuses are in the "gifted program."



Reform school is now vocational school or alternative school.



Jail is now a detention facility. I don't know what they call after school

detention now. The term death penalty is taboo in some circles. Slave labor

is now called

community service or jury duty or the Army or working in a fast food

establishment.



In England a few years back if you tied faggots together you could take them

home and

build a fire. Today it would get you convicted of a hate crime (or be caled

kinky).



The town drunk is now a "substance abuser." A 400 pound woman has a "thyroid

problem."

Rape in Florida is now called "involuntary sexual battery."



Nobody is dying of AIDS, they are "living with AIDS."



(Saw a bumper sticker the other day: "Senior citizens are the major carrier

of AIDS:

band-aids, hearing aids, hemorrhoid aids, rolaids...")



I never understood why chairman was politically incorrect and chairperson was

ok or that the adamant ones didn't insist on chairperdaughter?



Anyhow, here in Miami the Blacks & Cubans refer to the non-hispanic non

Afro-American

population as "Anglo's (sic)." Needless to say this doesn't sit too well

with Jews, Syrians, Lebanese, Swedes, Palestinians, Italians and especially

the French, all

of whom have some presence here. What formerly were called white people are now

non-hispanic/non-Afro-Americans.



Another item of political incorrectness I have noted over the years is the

deliberate truncating of a name. Senator Bob Dole often does this when

referring to the

Democrat Party. Jewish people are offended when the -ish is dropped and they

consider

the speaker anti-semitic. H. Ross Perot had it handed to him when he referred to

"you people".



In answer to your question, Wayne, the line is drawn at the point where the

person or group requesting the political correctness doesn't have a sense of

humor. If a group

can ask for a sensitivity, they should also be able to laugh at themselves

for having

become a societal stereotype.



SETH SKLAREY

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FLorida

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 07:19:09 -0500

From:  Charity Stafford <cls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



Kate Catmull wrote:



<most of a discussion of PC language snipped>



>>For example, in this discussion, I kind of like some of the terms & ideas

>>listed as PC ("diversity," for example), and feel neutral about others

>>(dorm ---> residence hall, checkup--->wellness check), while others

>>(procurement-----> purchasing) strike me as foolish and comical.

>>

>>Does this mean I'm a hopeless lefty, or what?



and later:



>> And what about my other

>>lefty and feminist friends who are for multi-culturalism but happen to

>>like Pinter?



To which Stephen replied:



>From: Stephen <lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET>

>

>As a left-handed person, your use of the terms "lefty" and "hopeless

>lefty" struck me as peculiar. As you used them, the terms seem to have a

>somewhat negative connotation, which struck me as odd coming from someone

>who seems to be concerned about political correctness. I am proud of being

>a "lefty" and I certainly do not consider myself "hopeless" as a result.

>What's the deal?



Now, Stephen may just possibly be parodying the urge towards

PC language, but I have to say, Kate's original post gave me

a weird feeling, too. I was going to just let it go, but since

Stephen's already entered the fray...



I always thought that people who were on the political left

were left*ists* - those of us who write with our left hands

are the lefties. Apparently in Kate's personal lexicon the

one word does for both groups. However, particularly when

you're talking to left-handed folks, I think this is likely

to cause a certain amount of confusion and possibly consternation.



Charity





------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:42:22 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>WayneG wrote: "If we slip up and say "dorms," we get corrected."

>

>By whom, Wayne???

>

>Bethany



By people who work in student affairs--and by their student agents. During

orientation, the students are told that they live in residence halls, not

dorms. Dorms are places that don't matter to the people. Residence halls

are places the students can call home. The students also eat in a dining

hall, not a cafeteria.



You have to remember that at a small college, faculty are in constant touch

with faculty from other disciplines and with people from all kinds of

administrative offices. Half the time when one goes to a party--say with a

keg or a chest of beer--even the lowliest can sit and chat with the

president and his wife.



Speaking of self-elevating terms, when I worked at a department store in

Pennsylvania, my manager hated being called a "clerk" by customers. He

would correct them and tell them that he was a manager. We all wore name

tags announcing that we were "sales associates." All of the people in

management and personnel called us "sales associates." I figured that the

name was supposed to dull the sting of minimum wage. It was always

embarrassing to go to the bank on payday.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:56:29 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: PC Language: Seth's List



It happened to me again while reading Seth's wonderful Jeremaiad on the

history of PC. Except where the euphemisms/revisionisms have become

institutionalized, I can't tell parody from actual use. For example, does

anyone ever say "vertically challenged" without making a joke? Hell, I'm

short and have suffered for it (ask Dukakis), but I can't say "vertically

challenged" without smirking. I am also "follically/follicularly/follicly

challenged," but that challenge has been an asset in some ways. Baldness

comes with a kind of dignity unattainable with a hair

piece/toupe/toup/rug--or textured spray paint.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 20 Nov 1995 23:30:16 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>>As a left-handed person, your use of the terms "lefty" and "hopeless

>lefty" struck me as peculiar. As you used them, the terms seem to have a

>somewhat negative connotation, which struck me as odd coming from someone

>who seems to be concerned about political correctness. I am proud of being

>a "lefty" and I certainly do not consider myself "hopeless" as a result.

>What's the deal?



And a wonderful example this is of PC problems, though I will assume that

you're kidding (having made the assumption that "lefty" referred to left in

terms of politics, not handedness.) Trying not to insult people is a

positive. Assuming insult at every opportunity and utterance is a

negative. Bending so over backward so as not to hurt yourself trying to

avoid saying anything at all in any sort of straightforward manner gets

absurd and ridiculous. Insisting on being treated with dignity and respect

is rational and reasonable.



Extremisim on both sides gets completely out of hand.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 08:32:05 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



At 7:19 AM 11/21/95 -0500, Charity Stafford wrote:



>Now, Stephen may just possibly be parodying the urge towards

>PC language, but I have to say, Kate's original post gave me

>a weird feeling, too.



Yes, I assumed Stephen was joking and in fact thought he was quite witty.



>However, particularly when

>you're talking to left-handed folks, I think this is likely

>to cause a certain amount of confusion and possibly consternation.



Charity does not seem to be joking, however, so I'll just say I'm sorry if

I caused confusion, let alone consternation--in context I would have

thought it was pretty clear what "lefty" meant. Was it truly not clear?

That astonishes me.



Anyway, sorry. I'm right-handed but have a number of sinister relations,

and I'll be extra-nice to them over the holidays to make up for it.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:02:37 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



Historical and other corrections: the spelling "womyn" was never

from NOW (which is a basically moderate organization), but from

various radical lesbians.



And at least here in New York, we have both vocational schools, which

teach people to be train drivers or airline mechanics, and alternative

schools, which help people graduate from high school, and neither of

these is the same as a reform school: nobody is sentenced to either

because they've committed a crime. And in case Seth cares, some people

really do have thyroid problems. Fortunately, it's an easily treated

matter. And if it really makes him happier to think of a 400-pound`

woman as a fat slob, that's his problem.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 09:17:24 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



> Retarded people, formerly known as mongoloids now have "Downs syndrome."



JFTR, I wanted to note the difference between

"retarded" and "Downs syndrome."

One, as I'm sure you're aware, is not

necessarily the other.



But I am perhaps taking this too precisely --

it occurs to me that you may have meant

"formerly known as mongoloids" as a qualifier

for "retarded people."



If that is so, then oops! I have no issue. =^]



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:22:24 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: dorm



Wayne's response to my question about correcting "dorm" to "residence

hall raises fascinating issues. Wayne said:



" ... students are told that they live in residence halls, not dorms.

Dorms are places that don't matter to the people. ... "



I just checked my online AHD and discovered the ff:



dormitory



1. A room providing sleeping quarters for a number of persons.

2. A building for housing a number of persons, as at a school or resort.

3. A residential community whose inhabitants commute to a nearby metropolis

for employment and recreation.



A residential hall IS a dorm.



Even our elected officials have the good sense to consult a dictionary

when they cannot decide whether "will" and "shall" are sometimes

interchangeable (see p. 1 of the NYTimes yesterday).



What nonsense!



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:37:20 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 21-Nov-1995 10:35am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: RE: PC





When the discussion over political correctness gets heated--as it has in the l-

ast few posts--we have to stop for a minute and ask ourselves prayerfully, "What

would Chairman Mao want us to do?"



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs







Received: 21-Nov-1995 10:37am



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 10:07:20 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



"Dining hall" always worked for me. If nothing else, it's two

syllables shorter than "cafeteria," which is an advantage for a

word you use a lot. (In practice, we mostly referred to them by

name, as in "I had lunch in Commons," or "I'll meet you for dinner

in Branford." But the shows put on in the dining halls were

collectively "dining hall theater," not "cafeteria theater.")



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 13:01:19 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>"Dining hall" always worked for me. If nothing else, it's two

>syllables shorter than "cafeteria," which is an advantage for a

>word you use a lot. (In practice, we mostly referred to them by

>name, as in "I had lunch in Commons," or "I'll meet you for dinner

>in Branford." But the shows put on in the dining halls were

>collectively "dining hall theater," not "cafeteria theater.")

>

>Vicki Rosenzweig

>vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

>New York, NY



The students actually call it "SAGA"--the name of the company that ran it

before Marriott, the present operator.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 12:56:16 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Gettysburg



Dear ADSers,

 I have recently seen the movie `Gettysburg' with Tom Berenger, Martin

Sheen, and Jeff Daniels. I think the movie is very accurate

historically, but I am wondering how well the actors did in representing

the accents of their characters-- i.e. Maine (the Chamberlain's),

Virginia (Armistead, Lee and Pickett), and South Carolina/Alabama

(Longstreet).

Would anyone who has seen the movie and knows a bit about the accents

which are represented in the movie care to make any comments about their

accuracy?

This is probably a two-pronged question. As the Battle of Gettysburg took

place 132 years ago, it would be important to address how well the actors

represented the accents of 1863. In other words, what changes have taken

place since then? Thanks in advance for any comments.

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 13:29:18 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: PC Language



On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> In answer to your question, Wayne, the line is drawn at the point where the

> person or group requesting the political correctness doesn't have a sense of

> humor.



This is an interesting point.



> If a group

> can ask for a sensitivity, they should also be able to laugh at themselves

> for having

> become a societal stereotype.



Here I would have to say it depends on what you expect people to find

funny. I don't suppose a mother of a child in a special ed class would

get a chuckle from hearing that class called "the idiots who

were thrown into the public schools during the Reagan administration."

And where I live "faggot" is a fairly grave insult; nor would it be

generally considered humorous to tell someone with AIDS "you're not

'living with it,' you're _dying_ from it."



I suppose I'm sounding rather humorless myself, and I wish I could get

around that--I think of myself as quite jolly, I swear! What I'm trying

to say is that while I think your point about humorlessness is a an

excellent one, I'm not quite seeing how your examples always fit up with

it. (On the other hand, if I ever heard someone seriously call short

people "vertically challenged," I'd find that funny. I've only ever heard

that in the parody category, however.)



Some of this difference may be regional. Here in Austin I've never heard

an objection or confusion about the term Anglo (even from my Cajun

husband who sometimes calls non-cajuns 'white people'), but then it tends

to be used in clear and limited contexts. And I've never met a Jew who

thought that word was a slur, or at least one who told me so--is that

really true?



Sorry I know this is a bit incoherent. It's an interesting discussion,

though.



Kate Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 14:51:41 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



Perhaps the best definition of "political correctness" (as it pertains to

language) is this one from Robert Haiman, president of the Poynter Institute

for Media Studies: "Political correctness is a rigid orthodoxy precluding

the acceptability of any contrary view, which gained such acceptance in any

group that it, in effect, becomes the institutionalized position of that

group. Once that view becomes the politically correct view of that group,

any member who raises a contrary view may be viewed with suspicion, ignored,

shunned, denounced, attacked, or silenced."

Now, in all fairness, I think we should acknowledge that the original

intents of the PC movement were good and honorable. They wanted to end

racism, sexism, ageism, and all the other -isms that were disrepectful (and,

in many cases, inaccurate) toward various groups of people. They should

receive credit, I feel, for bringing about more awareness of the need for

such things as African American studies, women's studies, etc., in college

and university curricula and getting the writers and teachers of history to

rethink their approaches in terms of at least recognizing that all history

was not made by white male Protestants (I know, in my own case, a little

investigation provide me with some very significant and worthwhile material

for my Media History course on non-white, non-male, non-Protestant

journalists who deserved to be studied at least as much as Benjamin Harris

and William Allen White).

Where the PCers went astray, overstepped their bounds, if you will, is when

they moved into the area of performing an "anti-ethnic cleansing" of the

language and created their greatest monster, the speech code, which, sadly,

was adopted on some college and university campuses (and were all dismal

failures, as far as I can tell--I understand the only successful, and

ironic, prosecution of a speech-code case was the conviction of a black

student who called a white student "honky" and "white trash" at the

University of Michigan).

That is where Haiman's definition comes to bear. I'm sure we're all familiar

with the case at Pennsylvania U., where the Jewish student was charged with

something or other for yelling at a group of black students (whose ethnic

identities he did not know, since he could not see them, only hear them

indistinctly) to be quiet so he could study and finished by calling them

"you water buffalo." It was an exquisite example of the ironic flaw in the

idea of PC "speech police" and, I believe, ultimately was dropped (but, at

one point, they were talking about expelling the offending student).

Those cases prompted history professor Elizabeth Fox-Genovese of Emory

University to suggest, appropriately, that PC had eaten its own young: "The

climate (created by PC) has placed liberals, especially liberal

intellectuals--including the members of the media--in a difficult situation,

to which they have not always responded well. Fancying themselves committed

warriors for freedom of expression, they righteously reject the notion that

those whose views they share, much less they themselves, might commit

political correctness. But then, the views of the politically correct are,

more often than not, the views they do share."

Before I launch into an even longer personal treatise on PC, I believe one

of the early posts on this thread wanted to know the name of an expert on

the subject of PC language, speech codes, etc. I would recommend Charles

Calleros at Stanford U., who, while a visiting professor at Arizona State,

drafted that university's code, which, instead of enforcing PC speech,

defended freedom of expression on the campus and set out guidelines for

punishing actual harassment of members of minority groups, women, etc.

Incidentally, I met Calleros at the First Amendment Congress a few years ago

in Richmond, Va., where I participated on a workshop panel that dealt with

this whole idea of language-cleansing. It turned out to be a most

interesting and spirited debate, with plenty of vocal intensity on both

sides (the anti-speech code side won out, and the Congress adopted an

anti-speech code plank in its platform). But the most convincing argument

against such codes, even in the face of minority-group members on the panel

who rightfully noted that the use of ethnic slurs can be most hurtful to the

recipients, came from a man whose name I can't recall right now, who

suggested that all a speech code against hurtful ethnic slurs would

accomplish would be to drive the bigots "underground" and make them harder

to identify and try to deal with.

"David Duke is far more dangerous in a white shirt than he ever was in a

white sheet," was his quite memorable--and accurate--conclusion.

This posting is far more than was asked for--or is probably

appropriate--but, when you get me started on this subject, it is hard for me

to start, since, even though I am one of those flaming liberals leftover

from the '60s, I am not blinded to the essential necessities inherent in the

First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution (and, when you get right down to

it, find the extremes of "anti-ethnic cleansing of the language" (i.e.,

dorms to residents hall, cafeteria to dining service, or whatever) absurd.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)

[speaking for only myself, of course, from a small college that has some

tendencies toward using euphemisms instead of the real words but, thank God,

has no speech code]



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 14:12:25 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC Language



SAGA? My sympathies. I spent a summer eating their stuff once. (My

alma mater ran its own dining halls, which made it better than

average--basing this on talking to visitors from other schools, and

my own visits to other people's dorms and dining halls.)



Vicki



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 15:45:19 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: SAGA



Yes. At Lewis & Clark College, where I spent my freshman year about 1,000

years ago, we referred to it affectionately as the South American Garbage

Association. (Though frankly, I don't remember that it was all that bad.)



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer wrote:



> SAGA? My sympathies. I spent a summer eating their stuff once. (My

> alma mater ran its own dining halls, which made it better than

> average--basing this on talking to visitors from other schools, and

> my own visits to other people's dorms and dining halls.)

>

> Vicki

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 20:04:28 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Turkish Language - Melungeon question (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:03:49 -0500 (EST)

From: William Albert Davis <wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com>

To: Stumper-list <stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: Turkish Language - Melungeon question





In a November 12th edition of the Louisville Courier-Journal there is an

article on the Melungeons (a people of dark complexion and uncertain orgin

from the Tennesee-Kentucky-Virginia border) and it quotes Dr. Brent

Kennedy, author of THE MELUNGEONS, as saying that the word Melungeon "is

Turkish, meaning "Abandoned by God." "



Is there such an expression in Turkish, and how close is it to sounding

like "Melungeon?"



He also says that "gaumy" meand "messed up" in Turkish, and that "guamed

up" is an old expression in areas where the Melungeons live.



Thanks for any insight,





Bill Davis       wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com

******************************************************************************

  * William A. Davis * 1424 Arcade Avenue * Louisville * KY * 40215 *

     * P.O.Box 337 * Ghent * KY * 41045 * (502) 363-4521 *

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 21:19:45 -0500

From:  GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET

Subject: GURT'96



====================CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT====================



       Georgetown University Round Table

        on Languages and Linguistics 1996



 Linguistics, language acquisition, and language variation:

       Current trends and future prospects



          March 14 - March 16, 1996



---------------------------------------------------------------

This is a brief version intended to keep list messages short.

To see the full program, visit this www-site:

>> http://www.georgetown.edu/conferences/gurt96/gurt96.html

...or contact the GURT staff at the address given below.

---------------------------------------------------------------



          Thursday, March 14, 1996



Opening remarks

   James E. Alatis, Chair, Georgetown University Round Table

   1996



Dedication of Conference to Earl Stevick, Independent Researcher



Plenary Address

   David Crystal, Cambridge University Press

   "Playing with linguistic problems from Orwell to Plato and

   back again"



          *****



  Friday, March 15 and Saturday, March 16, 1996



INVITED SPEAKERS:



Michael Breen, Edith Cowan University, Australia



Anna Uhl Chamot, The George Washington University



Donna Christian, Center for Applied Linguistics



Mary Ann Christison, Snow College



Reinhold Freudenstein, IFS der Philipps-Universitaet, Marburg/Lahn,

Germany



Braj Kachru, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign



Yamuna Kachru, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign



Stephen Krashen, University of Southern California



Donna Lardiere and Andrea Tyler, Georgetown University



Ronald P. Leow, Georgetown University



Joan Morley, University of Michigan



Peter Patrick, Georgetown University



Theodore Rodgers, University of Hawaii and Bilkent University,

Ankara, Turkey



Renzo Titone, University of Rome, Italy and University of Toronto,

Ontario



Walt Wolfram and Gail Hamilton, North Carolina State University

and Ocracoke School, North Carolina





             *****



Tutorial with Stephen Krashen, School of Education, University of

Southern California



This workshop will cover, and attempt to integrate, material

presented at Krashen's GURT presentations since 1989. It will

review evidence for and against the input hypothesis, the reading

hypothesis, applications of the input hypothesis to beginning

and intermediate language and literacy development, the role of

light reading, and applications to bilingual education.



=====================================================================



For more information, please contact Carolyn A. Straehle,

Coordinator  *  GURT 1996  *  Georgetown University

International Language Programs and Research  *  306-U

Intercultural Center  *  Washington, DC 20057-1045

e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu  *

voice: 202/687-5726  *  fax: 202/687-0699



END OF FILE=========================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:08:45 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Turkish Language - Melungeon que



>

> In a November 12th edition of the Louisville Courier-Journal there is an

> article on the Melungeons (a people of dark complexion and uncertain orgin

> from the Tennesee-Kentucky-Virginia border) and it quotes Dr. Brent

> Kennedy, author of THE MELUNGEONS, as saying that the word Melungeon "is

> Turkish, meaning "Abandoned by God." "

>

> Is there such an expression in Turkish, and how close is it to sounding

> like "Melungeon?"



According to my Concise Turkish Dictionary, <melekuttu> means 'God's spiritual

dominion; creation.' In Turkish, it wouldn't sound much like 'melungeon.'



>

> He also says that "gaumy" meand "messed up" in Turkish, and that "guamed

> up" is an old expression in areas where the Melungeons live.

>



<Gamli> (no dot over the i) means 'sorrowful, grieved; anxious.' I guess one

could extend from there. I will seek further info.



JCStalker

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 21 Nov 1995 22:53:54 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: Left; was PC Language



All are born left-handed. You turn right-handed after you commit your

first sin.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1995 to 21 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 249 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. PC Language (2)

 2. PC (3)

 3. Hannah Cowley (fwd)

 4. Turkish Language - Melungeon question (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 07:12:35 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



>> Retarded people, formerly known as mongoloids now have "Downs syndrome."

>

>JFTR, I wanted to note the difference between

>"retarded" and "Downs syndrome."

>One, as I'm sure you're aware, is not

>necessarily the other.

>

>But I am perhaps taking this too precisely --

>it occurs to me that you may have meant

>"formerly known as mongoloids" as a qualifier

>for "retarded people."

>

>If that is so, then oops! I have no issue. =^]

>



 That's exactly the way I meant it.



--SETH



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 07:17:38 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PC



  David Bergdahl asked:



>When the discussion over political correctness gets heated--as it has in the l-

>ast few posts--we have to stop for a minute and ask ourselves prayerfully,

"What

>would Chairman Mao want us to do?"

>

>BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

>        David Bergdahl





OK, I'll bite. What WOULD Chairman Mousey Tongue have wanted us to do? (And

would

he have published it in Redbook Magazine?)



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:58:55 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC



It seems to me that "politcal correctness" really just has to do with being

polite to others, and with the tendency of labels towards pejoration. As s

label for a group of people becomes more common, there is often a tendency

to view the label itself as negative, prompting members of the group

represented by the label (or those who speak for them, such as the families

of "retarded" people) to come up with a new, less connotative "name" for

their group. Non-group members who find themselves asked to relinquish

a term they are used to for another, less-familiar term, can either politely

acknowledge that the term they have been using is hurtful to the members of

the group, and _ATTEMPT_ to use the new, suggested term, or they can assert

their right to free speech (which they have, and SHOULD have) and use

whatever term they want. If they choose the latter course, though, they

will in many cases find themselves on the defensive for using a now-pejorative

term. Rather than acknowledge what they are doing--insisting on prioritizing

their own right to free speech over the need to treat others politely and

respectfully, some of these folks choose to assault the linguistic phenomenon

of _euphemism_ which drives this whole process by calling it "political

correctness." I could assert the same "right" by insisting on saying "I

have to take a piss" in whatever situation I find myself at the time, accusing

those who object to my saying this--say, in front of children--of being PC

but suggesting that I should say "I have to go to the bathroom" instead. I

suspect those who most object to so-called PC-ness would not allow me to

speak so freely: it's the right-wing that objects so vehemently to the

"adult language" on television shows such as "NYPD Blue," after all.

I have my asbestos suit handy, BTW.

Greg Pulliam

Chicago

HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 11:16:26 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: PC



On Wed, 22 Nov 1995, Gregory J. Pulliam wrote:



> I

> suspect those who most object to so-called PC-ness would not allow me to

> speak so freely: it's the right-wing that objects so vehemently to the

> "adult language" on television shows such as "NYPD Blue," after all.

> I have my asbestos suit handy, BTW.

> Greg Pulliam

> Chicago

> HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

>

Good point, Greg. There is a fabulous irony that those who continue to

make PC an issue also seem to be those most intent on constraining truly

free expression. A very thoughtful discussion in your post, BTW.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 11:19:00 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Hannah Cowley (fwd)



This query is a natural for the ADS-L. Can anyone help?



Bob



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 14:14:11 -0500

From: Linda Troost <LTROOST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WASHJEFF.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list C18-L <C18-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PSUVM.PSU.EDU>

Subject: Hannah Cowley



   How does one pronounce the name of the author of _The Belle's

Stratagem_? "Coolie" as in Abraham or "Cow-lee"? I recall that the

two Roosevelt cousins, Teddy and Franklin did NOT pronounce their names

the same way, so I am not assuming that there's one way. I never heard

the name in grad school, so I have no pronunciation to pass on.



Grateful for assistance,

ltroost[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]washjeff.edu [Internet]

Linda Veronika Troost



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 09:19:15 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Turkish Language - Melungeon question (fwd)



Both words sound particularly un-Turkish to me, especially "melungeon".

No native Turkish phrase, (or Arabic or Persian phrase borrowed into

Turkish) meaning approximately "Abandoned by God" remotely approaches

the sound of "melungeon". Neither can I find any Turkish word that would

yield the pronounciation "gaumy" since there is no "au" diphthong in Turkish

nor can I find anything approaching that meaning in Ottoman Turkish,

which would assumedly have been spoken when these words were borrowed. Modern

Turkish has replaced many common Ottoman words with reconstructed words

based on

native Turkish roots, so modern reference works will be of little or no use.



Webster's 3rd Int. Dict. lists the origin of melungeon as unknown, and

speculates that gaum and its relatives as deriving from a dialectical

pronounciation of "gum". Both of these suggestions seem much more plausible

than a Turkish origin of these words.



Also, Mathews' Dictionary of Americanisms gives several interesting

quotes on melungeons: 1889 "Boston Trav" 13 Apr. "They resented the

appellation Melungeon ... and proudly called themselves Portuguese."

1891 "Arena" III, p. 240 "The Melungeons believe themselves to be of

Cherokee and Portuguese extraction."

1940 "American Speech" XV, p. 46 suggests the word derives from the

French melange.



On gaum, etc., DARE v. 2 p. 642-4



Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Tue, 21 Nov 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 1995 00:03:49 -0500 (EST)

> From: William Albert Davis <wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com>

> To: Stumper-list <stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

> Subject: Turkish Language - Melungeon question

>

>

> In a November 12th edition of the Louisville Courier-Journal there is an

> article on the Melungeons (a people of dark complexion and uncertain orgin

> from the Tennesee-Kentucky-Virginia border) and it quotes Dr. Brent

> Kennedy, author of THE MELUNGEONS, as saying that the word Melungeon "is

> Turkish, meaning "Abandoned by God." "

>

> Is there such an expression in Turkish, and how close is it to sounding

> like "Melungeon?"

>

> He also says that "gaumy" meand "messed up" in Turkish, and that "guamed

> up" is an old expression in areas where the Melungeons live.

>

> Thanks for any insight,

>

>

> Bill Davis       wmadavis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iglou.com

> ******************************************************************************

>   * William A. Davis * 1424 Arcade Avenue * Louisville * KY * 40215 *

>      * P.O.Box 337 * Ghent * KY * 41045 * (502) 363-4521 *

> ******************************************************************************

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 20:29:31 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



>Historical and other corrections: the spelling "womyn" was never

>from NOW (which is a basically moderate organization), but from

>various radical lesbians.



In Miami there was a period when NOW was controlled by a radical faction,

but if you check my original post I attributed "womyn" to the radical

wing.



>And at least here in New York, we have both vocational schools, which

>teach people to be train drivers or airline mechanics, and alternative

>schools, which help people graduate from high school, and neither of

>these is the same as a reform school: nobody is sentenced to either

>because they've committed a crime.



Of course I understand the difference between vocational and alternative

schools. Whether some students are given a chance or alternative to

successfully attend an alternative school or be subject to a more

punitive possibility is a matter of debate.



 And in case Seth cares, some people

>really do have thyroid problems. Fortunately, it's an easily treated

>matter. And if it really makes him happier to think of a 400-pound`

>woman as a fat slob, that's his problem.



I never used the term fat slob. I'm curious how you

made that connection.



Although I consider myself intellectually sensitive, I realize that

my humor tends to be less sensitive and if anyone becomes offended

I apologize. In my postings I try to be stimulating, a bit provocative

and give food for thought. Since I read and reply late at night I

might occasionally shoot from the hip and have second thoughts in the

morning. I'm always open to constructive criticism and willing to

be corrected.



Sincerely,





Seth Sklarey

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Nov 1995 to 22 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 275 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "Dining Hall"

 2. /w/ and /hw/ (2)

 3. The Automat (5)

 4. PC Language

 5. An apology



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 22 Nov 1995 22:38:42 -0800

From:  "J.Russell King" <jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: "Dining Hall"



>"Dining hall" always worked for me. If nothing else, it's two

>syllables shorter than "cafeteria," which is an advantage for a

>word you use a lot.



This is veering away from political correctness back to more strictly

linguistic area, I suppose, but I was struck by this post and the ones

that prompted it.



In my own personal lexicon, "cafeteria" connotes a place where the

offerings are individually priced: a fish filet is $2.25, a dish of

green beans (or string beans) is 55 cents, a carton of milk is 40

cents, a pat of butter is three cents. The patron chooses individual

items and is charged accordingly. Where the patron is served a set meal

at a set price, even if he picks up a plastic tray and stands in line

to be served, is not a cafeteria, nor is a place where one picks and

chooses among numerous offerings but is charged the same total price no

matter what.



Thus the place I ate in grade school, where there were no choices, you

ate what the little old hair-netted ladies dished out, was not a

cafeteria, it was the "lunchroom." When we got to high school, and

could choose the 55-cent hamburger or the 75-cent chicken fried steak,

it was a "cafeteria." And then in college, where we could choose the

hamburger or the chicken fried steak or the yogurt, but whatever we

chose it was going to cost $1800 a year regardless, it was the "dining

center" or one of the "dining halls" or "dining rooms," not a

cafeteria. In the commercial context, the Furr's and Luby's chains (or

the greatest of all, Bryce's in Texarkana) are "cafeterias," but I'd

never refer to the elaborate "hot food bar" setups at chain steakhouses

and the like as a "cafeteria"; generically, they are "buffets."



Is this how-you-pay distinction not inherent in others' understanding

and use of the term "cafeteria"?



(And then there are the Korean delis which offer a slightly more

noodle-oriented version of Ponderosa's hot food bar except you pay by

the ounce instead of a set price -- a system that falls outside either

"cafeteria" or "buffet" in my language.)



Curious.



JRKing

deputy news editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 06:17:39 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: /w/ and /hw/



An e-mail friend of mine in Sweden has asked about the current status of

/w/ vs /hw/ in the US. I just looked back at the ADS-L archives and found

Jack Chambers' figures for Canada and upstate NY but not much else in the

way of real data. Have any of the rest of you done any work lately on the

apparent decline of /hw/?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 07:11:09 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: The Automat



The following discussion would not be complete without a discourse on the

automat,

a uniquely New York phenomenon in which the patron approached a wall of food

in individual glassed front cubicles each just large enough to contain the

food item

on a plate. Nickels, dimes and/or quarters were put into the slots at each

cubicle and the door popped open for you to obtain the food. What you saw was

what you got, with no surly help to contend with. I believe the places were

called Horn & Hardardt's Automat, but it was a long time ago. Can anybody

add some info?



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net









JRKing

>deputy news editor

>The New York Times WROTE:



>>"Dining hall" always worked for me. If nothing else, it's two

>>syllables shorter than "cafeteria," which is an advantage for a

>>word you use a lot.

>

>This is veering away from political correctness back to more strictly

>linguistic area, I suppose, but I was struck by this post and the ones

>that prompted it.

>

>In my own personal lexicon, "cafeteria" connotes a place where the

>offerings are individually priced: a fish filet is $2.25, a dish of

>green beans (or string beans) is 55 cents, a carton of milk is 40

>cents, a pat of butter is three cents. The patron chooses individual

>items and is charged accordingly. Where the patron is served a set meal

>at a set price, even if he picks up a plastic tray and stands in line

>to be served, is not a cafeteria, nor is a place where one picks and

>chooses among numerous offerings but is charged the same total price no

>matter what.

>

>Thus the place I ate in grade school, where there were no choices, you

>ate what the little old hair-netted ladies dished out, was not a

>cafeteria, it was the "lunchroom." When we got to high school, and

>could choose the 55-cent hamburger or the 75-cent chicken fried steak,

>it was a "cafeteria." And then in college, where we could choose the

>hamburger or the chicken fried steak or the yogurt, but whatever we

>chose it was going to cost $1800 a year regardless, it was the "dining

>center" or one of the "dining halls" or "dining rooms," not a

>cafeteria. In the commercial context, the Furr's and Luby's chains (or

>the greatest of all, Bryce's in Texarkana) are "cafeterias," but I'd

>never refer to the elaborate "hot food bar" setups at chain steakhouses

>and the like as a "cafeteria"; generically, they are "buffets."

>

>Is this how-you-pay distinction not inherent in others' understanding

>and use of the term "cafeteria"?

>

>(And then there are the Korean delis which offer a slightly more

>noodle-oriented version of Ponderosa's hot food bar except you pay by

>the ounce instead of a set price -- a system that falls outside either

>"cafeteria" or "buffet" in my language.)

>

>Curious.

>

>JRKing

>deputy news editor

>The New York Times

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 06:31:19 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



> An e-mail friend of mine in Sweden has asked about the current status of

> /w/ vs /hw/ in the US. I just looked back at the ADS-L archives and found



Correction: He didn't limit the question to the US. He's interested in

the current status of /w/ vs /hw/ in the whole English-speaking world.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 07:32:56 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Automat



The first time I went to NYC high on my list of priorities was a meal at

an automat, which I was able to have -- don't remember the address.

That was December 1961.



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 07:48:15 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PC Language



 Kate wrote:

>Some of this difference may be regional. Here in Austin I've never heard

>an objection or confusion about the term Anglo (even from my Cajun

>husband who sometimes calls non-cajuns 'white people'), but then it tends

>to be used in clear and limited contexts.



P.S. to my previous post:



Part of the tongue in cheek sarcasm of "political correctness" is that the

only "minority" left which is politically acceptable to pick on IS "white

people," hence anyone who has any claim to being non-white can opt out

of "whiteness" to take shots, yet still have the luxury of going to the

country club and "passing." It's the cheap thrill of the 90's.



SETH SKLAREY

Coconut Grove, Florida

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



            HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:14:48 -0500

From:  "Allan M. Siegal" <siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>

Subject: Re: The Automat



On Nov 23, 1995 07:11:09, 'SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>' wrote:



> I believe the places were

>called Horn & Hardardt's Automat, but it was a long time ago. Can anybody



>add some info?



    The last working Automat, at Lexington Avenue and 42d Street, closed 10 or

15 years ago. It became a Horn & Hardart (sic) restaurant with table

service. The greatest loss was the nickel ladies -- those wonders who could

dip a hand into a bucket of nickels and weigh out a precise dollar's worth

without looking, for customers needing change for the slots.



    An Automat -- nonworking, too bad -- is preserved on the ground floor of

the Museum of History and Technology at the Smithsonian.



    But we digress.

--

Allan M. Siegal........................siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com

Assistant Managing Editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 09:18:31 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin <RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Automat



The automat is/was (do they still exist?) not unique to NYC. In the

years I lived in Philadelphia (1942-48) they were there as well.



Not to flame (exactly) but why is it so often that NYC folk assert/think

that things they cherish about their lives in the City are unique to

the City? Is it so that that "ultimate" American sophistication of NYC

is also its own ultimate provincialism?

Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 12:40:00 -0500

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: An apology



    I apologize for flooding everyone's mailbox with ADS-L LIST. That

wassn't supposed to happen (and I'm not sure why it did, except that somehow

I goofed). At best, perhaps some other people wanted it, too; but I do

apologize.



--Virginia Clark

<vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 18:26:58 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: The Automat



On Thu, 23 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> The first time I went to NYC high on my list of priorities was a meal at

> an automat, which I was able to have -- don't remember the address.



It was heaven. In 1960 (I was 9) for 15 cents I could (and did, grossing

out parents and sibling) have cherry pie for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

Way cool. Happy Thanksgiving.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Nov 1995 to 23 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 82 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. The Automat

 2. AUTOMAT (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 23 Nov 1995 23:49:41 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Automat



Growing up in the New York of the 'Fifties, I took pride in all those Horn &

Hardart's Automats, even if the former was not an actual relation. Nickels

only, as I recall. I was especially fond of the pot pies, the franks and

beans, the fruit pies, and the way the whole glass and metal swivel

contraption worked when you put those nickels in...  I also recall the rumor

that Philadelphia not only had their own Automats (as Ron Rabin confirms), but

that theirs may have been first. I have no idea whether that was true.

It was sad indeed to see them close their doors, one by one.



As to Russell King's parenthetical comment--



>(And then there are the Korean delis which offer a slightly more

>noodle-oriented version of Ponderosa's hot food bar except you pay by

>the ounce instead of a set price -- a system that falls outside either

>"cafeteria" or "buffet" in my language.)



--I've seen them in New York called buffets; I'm not sure why the term

wouldn't fit, however the price is determined. They're definitely not

cafeterias in my lexicon. Delis, maybe. (There's also a nice Mongolian

buffet near Grand Central, somewhere around 44th if anyone wants to do field

work.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Nov 1995 15:44:29 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: AUTOMAT



"Allan M. Siegal" <siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM> writes about automats:

Subject: Re: The Automat



On Nov 23, 1995 07:11:09, 'SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>' wrote:



> I believe the places were

>called Horn & Hardardt's Automat, but it was a long time ago. Can anybody



>add some info?



    The last working Automat, at Lexington Avenue and 42d Street, closed 10 or

15 years ago. It became a Horn & Hardart (sic) restaurant with table

service. The greatest loss was the nickel ladies -- those wonders who could

dip a hand into a bucket of nickels and weigh out a precise dollar's worth

without looking, for customers needing change for the slots.

******************************************************************************

I moved back north in Jan 1988...I could have sworn I took a Floridian to the

Lexington Ave Automat around Christmas of 88 (both for the pie from little

windows *and* for the bathroom!--not that there's anything special about it,

but I find that I spend at least half my time in the city waiting on line for

reasonable public restrooms), but perhaps I'm confusing this excursion with

one during the early 80's (1981?) LSA meeting in NY.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Nov 1995 20:11:40 -0500

From:  "Allan M. Siegal" <siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>

Subject: Re: AUTOMAT



On Nov 24, 1995 15:44:29, 'ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lenny.HASKINS.YALE.EDU>'

wrote:

>I could have sworn I took a Floridian to the

>Lexington Ave Automat around Christmas of 88.

----------------

    Yes, and apologies. I had the timing wrong in my earlier post. The last

Automat, at Lexington and 42d, closed in 1990. The Horn & Hardart Company

has since changed its name, too. I discovered my date error soon after

posting, but neglected to correct myself. Thanks.

--

Allan M. Siegal........................siegal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com

Assistant Managing Editor

The New York Times



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Nov 1995 to 24 Nov 1995

************************************************







There are 2 messages totalling 41 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. dorm

 2. pc at mla



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:49:18 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: dorm



Yes, a dorm's a dorm and a' that. But residence hall directors have

rebelled against the term. The argument here is that dorms are for

sleeping, and students do much more than that in dorms (ah, well, yes, I

guess they do/we did). Better still are the ones who hope we will all use

such terms as campus life centers.



Sigh.





Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 24 Nov 1995 23:49:22 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: pc at mla



I will be tracing developments of the meaning of the term political

correctness at the Language and Society session at MLA (Sat. 12/30,

8:30-9:45 am, Suite 273 Hyatt Regency. Hope to see all you ADS/MLA members

there to apply the appropriate correctives.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Nov 1995 to 25 Nov 1995

************************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 118 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Separate dialects?

 2. The Automat

 3. toboggan (4)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Nov 1995 23:49:05 -0600

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Separate dialects?



According to dialect maps, the Hudson Valley has a dialect of English

distinct from the dialect of the rest of Upstate New York and Western

Vermont. Since I grew up in Ulster County NY, I presumably speak one of

these dialects. Trying to figure out which one, I've realized that I

hear more variation within what are supposed to be two dialect areas than

I do between them -- in pitch, pronunciation, and vocabulary.



For that matter, Montreal English sounds almost accentless to me.

(Though if I were to spend much time there, I would probably run into

vocabulary differences.)



I'm not a trained observer. But I do wonder whether 1)The differences

between Upstate New York and Hudson Valley have lessened; or 2) the

people who made the original dialect maps were biased toward finding two

distinct dialect areas; or 3) my hearing is worse than I thought it was.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 25 Nov 1995 23:02:49 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: The Automat



>It was heaven. In 1960 (I was 9) for 15 cents I could (and did, grossing

>out parents and sibling) have cherry pie for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

>Way cool. Happy Thanksgiving



I, too, have wonderful memories of the automat and was sorry to see them

close (although I haven't lived in NY for years). Growing up in a kosher

household, my mother (NEVER my father) would take me to the H&H

occasionally for lunch. Not being allowed to get any of the meat dishes, I

would only get vegetables on the cafeteria line. I was probably the only

8-10 year old who would get a plate of pickled beets, creamed corn, and

whatever other vegetable was being offered that day. The beets and corn

were a particular treat since I never had them at home. And then came

cherry pie. And cold milk out of those wonderful brass spigots. I can

still see and nearly taste it all so clearly. Yum.



Happy Thanksgiving to everybody. A holiday that revolves around food,

friends, and family - with almost no religious overtones. Works for me.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Nov 1995 14:26:38 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: toboggan



It was very confusing to hear the woman say, "I've lost my toboggan, I must

have knocked it off in the car!" Since there was no snow and no hill, I was

really confused so I asked her what she was talking about and she said she had

lost her hat! It was a knit ski hat. Many people in southwestern Arkansas referto these snow hats as toboggans. Has anyone else heard this name for a knit

cap?  marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Nov 1995 17:13:16 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: toboggan



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Students from Toledo OH and Michiganders use this term for a knit cap.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Nov 1995 18:07:39 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: toboggan



>It was very confusing to hear the woman say, "I've lost my toboggan, I must

>have knocked it off in the car!" Since there was no snow and no hill, I

> was really confused so I asked her what she was talking about and she said

she had lost her hat! It was a knit ski hat. Many people in southwestern

Arkansas refer to these snow hats as toboggans.



The Canadians use "toque" (took? tuk?) for knit ski hats. I think it may be

from their Francophones.



yorshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 26 Nov 1995 23:59:48 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: toboggan



>

> Students from Toledo OH and Michiganders use this term for a knit cap.

>

Not Michiganders from the East Lansing area. I grew up in KY in the 50s using

this term as the usual name for a knit cap (a term I never used until I lived

in Michigan). I check the term regularly with my students, and none have ever

heard it in the meaning 'knit cap,' only as a sled.  The OED gives tobaggon cap

as US, with earliest example

from <American Speech>, V, 152, and two other examples, one from the <Pacific

Spectator> and one from the <Raleigh (NC) News & Observer>.



JCStalker

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Nov 1995 to 26 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 245 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. toboggan

 2. The Automat

 3. Zero or "o"? (6)

 4. Separate dialects?

 5. /w/ and /hw/



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 08:27:32 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: toboggan



Jim Stalker is right on about the 'tobaggon' business in KY (at least

Louisville area). I'm not sure if my use was idiosyncratic, but for me

(growing up in the same place at roughly the same time), a 'tobaggon'

additionally required an elongated top, with, perhaps, the prototypical

form having a fuzzy ball on the end. I had no term for 'knit cap' till I

was blown north in the 60's.

Perhaps we had names for only the cartoonish forms of this outerwear down

in Louisville since, unlike here in East Lansing, we didn't need the damn

things so often

Dennis 'Cold-ears' Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>

>>

>> Students from Toledo OH and Michiganders use this term for a knit cap.

>>

>Not Michiganders from the East Lansing area. I grew up in KY in the 50s using

>this term as the usual name for a knit cap (a term I never used until I lived

>in Michigan). I check the term regularly with my students, and none have ever

>heard it in the meaning 'knit cap,' only as a sled.  The OED gives tobaggon

>cap

>as US, with earliest example

>from <American Speech>, V, 152, and two other examples, one from the <Pacific

>Spectator> and one from the <Raleigh (NC) News & Observer>.

>

>JCStalker

>stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:49:38 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Automat



I, and most of my friends in New York, refer to the selections of

hot and cold food sold by weight in delis as "salad bars" even though

much of what they're selling isn't salad by any usual definition

(things like ribs, baked fish, and mashed sweet potatoes).



By the way, Larry, do you remember the name of that Mongolian buffet?

The one I used to go to closed, and I'm eager to do some field work.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:53:54 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Zero or "o"?



After a much-needed mini-vacation

visiting friends and relatives in Baltimore,

I'm back with the following question:



does anyone have any informal observations

about the use of "zero" vs. "o" in reading

series of numbers?



I think, from casual observation, that in

more common series, i.e. area codes, etc.,

"o" is more likely. E.g., "seven-o-eight"

for 708, even among speakers who use "zero"

in less familiar number patterns, like phone

numbers.



Does this seem fitting to you (y'all)?



Kate





;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 10:05:08 PST

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



The use of "zero" instead of "O" in oral recitation of numbers seems to me

to be a quite recent innovation but now very widespread.



Just this morning, a female respondent to a phone call to a NJ firm recited

the firm's zip code as "zero 8 zero 1 6 hyphen 4 nine zero 7."



In the past, if my memory serves me, "O's" were almost universally used in

such situations.



I wonder if the innovation has been sparked by the difference in the zero and

the O on computer screens. My WordPerfect 5.1 prints out such numbers with

a capital "O," even though on the screen a distinction is made.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 11:08:22 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Separate dialects?



On Sat, 25 Nov 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> According to dialect maps, the Hudson Valley has a dialect of English

> distinct from the dialect of the rest of Upstate New York and Western

> Vermont. Since I grew up in Ulster County NY, I presumably speak one of

> these dialects. Trying to figure out which one, I've realized that I

> hear more variation within what are supposed to be two dialect areas than

> I do between them -- in pitch, pronunciation, and vocabulary.

>

> I'm not a trained observer. But I do wonder whether 1)The differences

> between Upstate New York and Hudson Valley have lessened; or 2) the

> people who made the original dialect maps were biased toward finding two

> distinct dialect areas; or 3) my hearing is worse than I thought it was.



I think one reason is that that distincition was made by Kurath's Word

Geography, which is based on lexicon. But the lexicon which underlies

much of the word geography represents a bygone way of life. Since people

do not, for example, make cottage cheese at home anymore, disntinctions

like "Dutch Cheese" vs. "pot cheese" have disappeared (according to the

maps, "pot cheese" was in the Hudson Valley & came from the Dutch who

were there 200 years ago). I don't think the Hudson Valley was ever set

apart by phonology or morphosyntax.



Tim Frazer

Dept of English

Western Illinois University

Macomb, Illinois 61455



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 11:56:22 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



I did a call-in show recently and a caller wanted me to confirm his belief

that "o" was an error and that only "zero" was correct. He was angry when

I wouldn't back him up--I did try to let him down gently, but it was no

use: he was convinced that "o" was the upstart innovation in need of

quashing.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 13:55:26 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



>Date:     Mon, 27 Nov 1995 09:53:54 -0600

>From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

...

>does anyone have any informal observations

>about the use of "zero" vs. "o" in reading

>series of numbers?

>

I've always felt that "oh" is the commonly used pronunciation, but "zero" is

used when someone wants to be absolutely explicitly clear about the number.

This came up in a conversation in Japan, because "maru" (lit. "circle") is

used in generaly conversation, but "zero" (zeh-roh) is used when someone

wants to be very precise. It seems interesting how close usage can be.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 20:04:58 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



Also, 'operator' might be considered as a reason for saying 'oh' in a

phone number. Looking at the key pad, however, it does appear that there is

a digit zero. I feel as if I'm being a bit relaxed when I say 'oh' and a bit

to 'formal' or overly correct when I say zero, but, ok, more precise too.

With all sorts of new computer/email codes and addresses it will probably

become more important to make sure these two symbols are accurately comm

communicated. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 21:20:16 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



Marla writes:



>Also, 'operator' might be considered as a reason for saying 'oh' in a

>phone number. Looking at the key pad, however, it does appear that there is

>a digit zero. I feel as if I'm being a bit relaxed when I say 'oh' and a bit

>to 'formal' or overly correct when I say zero, but, ok, more precise too.

>With all sorts of new computer/email codes and addresses it will probably

>become more important to make sure these two symbols are accurately comm

>communicated. Marla



Of course the Operator position was originally keyed to O because the latter

was referred to as "oh", or so I assume. Anyway, the one position we NEVER get

'zero' is in referring to years like 1903--yet there's no possibility of

analyzing that as '19-operator-3'. I have a feeling the full range of labels

is complicated and pretty interesting. In sports scores, for instance, the

losing score is "nothing" (never "oh" and rarely "zero") if it's baseball or

football, "nil" if it's soccer, and "love" if it's tennis. Otherwise, 0 is

usually "oh" for reasons of least effort in house addresses, dates, etc., but

as Marla points out this may change in computer addresses, as it already has

to some extent in other contexts where the value of a particular alphanumeric

symbol is otherwise unrecoverable (as between letter "O" and number "0") and

where the distinction matters--license plates, vehicle IDs,...



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 27 Nov 1995 23:35:25 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



I haven't done any research, so this is annecdotal. I had thought that the

American southeast was the last stronghold of [hw], but if my (northeast

Georgia) students are any indication, it is no longer. They write such

things as "They where happy," and "I don't know wether the wheather was bad

or good."

Sincerely,

Bill Smith



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Nov 1995 to 27 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 24 messages totalling 559 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. toboggan

 2. Zero or "o"? (8)

 3. Heartburns (4)

 4. /w/ and /hw/ (3)

 5. Re(2): toboggan (2)

 6. Language Translation Request

 7. w-hw

 8. blonded? (2)

 9. Don Nelson puts behind

 10. Crawford's "Hold Your Tongue"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 02:05:34 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: toboggan



Marla,



In NW NC, I grew up with the word "toboggan" meaning knit cap. Have no

idea where it comes from.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



On Sun, 26 Nov 1995 mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sau460.saumag.edu wrote:



> It was very confusing to hear the woman say, "I've lost my toboggan, I must

> have knocked it off in the car!" Since there was no snow and no hill, I was

> really confused so I asked her what she was talking about and she said she had

> lost her hat! It was a knit ski hat. Many people in southwestern Arkansas referto these snow hats as toboggans. Has anyone else heard this name for a knit

> cap?  marla

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 02:24:03 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> In sports scores, for instance, the

> losing score is "nothing" (never "oh" and rarely "zero") if it's baseball or

> football, "nil" if it's soccer, and "love" if it's tennis.



Let's not forget the ever popular "zip" as in "The Colts fall to the

Panthers--29, zip." Context does affect usage, as Larry notes. You'd

never hear zip in a phone number.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 02:28:09 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Heartburns



Something curious. Visiting the folks this weekend for the holiday, my

mother referred to one of the unpleasant after-effects of overindulging.

She called the phenomenon "heartburns," plural. I thought it was pretty

funny since I'd never heard her use it before, at least to my

recollection. Has anyone else out there run into a case of heartburns?



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:04:40 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



I think itis true that the Am. SE has been "the last stronghold of [hw],"

but change continues and innovations spread, and my experience is that

even students from the SE who are under 30-35 years of old have a complete

merger of w/hw. As a native speaker of /hw-/, I have to work hard to

get students to hear what I am saying. Exceptions: students from very rural

areas.



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:17:14 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Heartburns



I have not heard "neartburns," but guess that is is used in analogy with

such well-attested "plurals" as "baking-powders."



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:17:38 -0500

From:  "Joan C. Cook" <cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> In sports scores, for instance, the

> losing score is "nothing" (never "oh" and rarely "zero") if it's baseball



And the batting count is always "oh": oh and 3 or 2 and oh.



--Joan



*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

Joan C. Cook                       Imagination is

Department of Linguistics                more important

Georgetown University                  than knowledge.

Washington, D.C., USA

cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu              --Albert Einstein

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:23:33 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Heartburns



Sorry about that typo; my last message should have read:



"I have not heard "heartburns," but guess that is is used in analogy with

such well-attested "plurals" as "baking-powders."



Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:50:03 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re(2): toboggan



Toboggan for knit cap is not familiar to me. However, a long-time local

resident of this village in the lower Hudson Valley reported it was familiar

to him even from his childhood.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 08:02:20 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Re(2): toboggan



I'm pretty sure that I heard Toboggan in reference to a knit cap before

I learned that it also meant some kind of sled-type thing. In Mississippi

the only sled-type things we were familiar with were trays dragged out of

kitchens at the first sign of ice or snow. Even now I don't think I've

ever seen a real sled except in pictures. But we had some great home-made

skate-cars, which I guess could be categorized as "sled-type things." We

used them for racing down hills on streets. It's a miracle that any of us

survived to adulthood.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 11:15:58 EST

From:  Murray F Spiegel <spiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]THUMPER.BELLCORE.COM>

Subject: Language Translation Request



There is an international cross-cultural linguistics project to translate

6 lines of nontechnical text into as many languages as possible.

We already have about 75 languages; given the strong interest in this project,

we want to expand what we have.



I've attached a list of commonly used languages we do not yet have.

If you can help us obtain a translation for any of them,

please respond to spiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bellcore.com.



For each language we want to obtain:

 - A translation into the language's native script - printed carefully or typed

 - A recording of someone saying the text (preferably a native)

 - If possible, a transliteration for an English speaker



E-mail contact with translators is most convenient. We can help

by mailing cassetttes and mailers for those without workstations capable

of recording audio.



Thanking you in advance;



Murray Spiegel

Speech Technology Research

Bellcore, Room 1C-237R

445 South Street

Morristown, NJ 07960-6438



Phone: 201-829-4518

Fax:  201-829-5963

email: spiegel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bellcore.com



========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ==========



Here is the language list:



UKRAINIAN in Ukraine, rank:23

BHOJPURI in India, rank:26

SIRAIKI in Pakistan, rank:33

MAITHILI in India, rank:35

ORIYA in India, rank:37

HAUSA in Nigeria, rank:40

AWADHI in India, rank:44

YORUBA in Nigeria, rank:47

SINDHI in Pakistan, rank:51

NEPALI in Nepal, rank:53

ASSAMESE in India, rank:59

HARYANVI in India, rank:60

SINHALA in Sri Lanka, rank:61

CEBUANO in Philippeans, rank:63

CZECH in (former) Czechoslovakia, rank:64

CATALAN in Spain, rank:66

DECCAN in India, rank:68

BELORUSSIAN in Belarus, rank:71

MAGAHI in India, rank:72

LOMBARD in Italy, rank:76

CHATTISGARHI in India, rank:80

BUNDELI in India, rank:84

ILOCANO in Philippeans, rank:85

KAZAKH in Kazakhstan, rank:86

RWANDA in Rwanda, rank:87

UYGHUR in China, rank:88

MARWARI in India, rank:90

AKAN in Ghana, rank:93

KURMANJI in Turkey, rank:95

SHONA in Zimbabw, rank:96

SOMALI in Somalia, rank:97

TATAR in Russia, rank:98

XHOSA in South Africa, rank:100

LUBA-KASAI in Zaire, rank:102

KURDI in Iraq, rank:104

KANAUJI in India, rank:107

RUNDI in Burundi, rank:108

GIKUYU in Kenya, rank:111

SANTALI in India, rank:112

MAKHUWA-METTO in Mozambique, rank:114

SYLHETTI in Bangladesh, rank:118

MOORE in Burkina, rank:121

SICILIAN in Italy, rank:122

SCHWYZERDUTSCH in Switzerland, rank:124

KASHMIRI in India, rank:126

KITUBA in Zaire, rank:127

BAMBARA in Mali, rank:129

LITHUANIAN in Lithuania, rank:132

NYANJA in Malawi, rank:133

SUKUMA in Tanzani, rank:134

TAJIKI in Tajikistan, rank:135

TIGRINYA in Eritrea, rank:136

TSWANA in Botswana, rank:142

LUO in Kenya, rank:143

UMBUNDU in Angola, rank:144

KONGO in Zaire, rank:147

IBIBIO in Nigeria, rank:148

LAO in Laos, rank:150

TURKMEN in Turkmenia, rank:151

TSONGA in South Africa, rank:152

LUYIA in Kenya, rank:153

LURI in Iran, rank:154

GANDA in Uganda, rank:155

KABYLE in Algeria, rank:159

PIEMONTESE in Italy, rank:161

SHAN in Myanmar, rank:162

TACHELHIT in Morocco, rank:164

TAMAZIGHT in Morocco, rank:165

WARAY-WARAY in Philippeans, rank:166

WOLOF in Senegal, rank:167

KIRGHIZ in Kyrghyzstan, rank:171

JULA in Burkina, rank:172

EWE in Ghana, rank:173

KALENJIN in Kenya, rank:174

KAMBA in Kenya, rank:175

DONG in China, rank:176

SLOVENIAN in Slovenia, rank:177

TIV in Nigeria, rank:178

VENETIAN in Italy, rank:179

MANINKA in Guinea, rank:181

BAULE in Cote dI, rank:182

MAZANDERANI in Iran, rank:183

BOUYEI in China, rank:186

BEMBA in Zambia, rank:189

DYERMA in Niger, rank:190

GILAKI in Iran, rank:191



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 09:45:30 -0800

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Heartburns



And my mom goes to 'the Kmarts' (used to be with a hyphen :-)) Note the

weird definite article.



On Tue, 28 Nov 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> I have not heard "neartburns," but guess that is is used in analogy with

> such well-attested "plurals" as "baking-powders."

>

> Bethany Dumas

> <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:11:38 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: w-hw



Someone asked me privately:



"For those of us who are not professional linguists but enjoy reading ADS-L

would you

be kind enough to annotate after jargon. e.g. what does [hw] mean? or

/hw-/? Thanks"



My response:



[churlish mode ON]



Well, I think it's fair to question "jargon". But I didn't use any in

that post. What I did was provide a comment that I thought would be

perfectly intelligible in the context of what I was commenting on,

using the most basic forms of phonetic transcription available.

Check ANY introductory linguistics book for more information on

basic transcription practices.



[churlish mode off]



It's interesting that non-linguists find ADS-L interesting. I would like

to know what led you to it.



The brackets and slashes [] and // enclose pronouned forms. THe

sound of [w] is what it usually is in English -- a glide as in

words like wish, win, wit. The symbol [h] indicates aspiration or

breath out as in "old-fashioned" pronunciations of whether (as

opposed to weather), which (as opposed to witch), and wen (as

opposed to when).



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:24:50 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: blonded?



Participial adjective of the week, from opener of an article in today's Times

(11/28/95, B6) about a Long Island real estate lawyer whose controversial ads

in mortgage-banking trade newspapers picture her stretched out across her desk

chewing on a pencil over the copy "Does this firm have a reputation? You bet

it does" and in similarly seductive poses:



'Rosalie Osias's blonded hair spills out of a white cowboy hat, cascading down

her shoulders. Holding a big fat cigar, she is wearing a blazer with the

sleeves rolled up to her elbows, a skirt the size of a legal pad and spiked

heels that would unnerve Sam Spade.'



Blonded hair? Is this a new euphemism for bleached, bleach-blond, peroxided,

etc.? Is 'blonde' attested elsewhere as a verb? How about other citations

of the adjective? Inquiring minds want to know.



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:41:00 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: blonded?



Way back several lifetimes ago I got blonded for the first time --

over the Christmas break in 1964-65, when I was teaching at one

SW Mo. State COllege (now University, of course). Among other delightful

courses, I was, of course, teaching freshman comp.



Sometime in mid-Jan, a colleague tald me about one of my former

students, who had come to tell him that "Miss DUmas" has got herself

"blonded" over the break. First time I had heard it as a verb.

FWIW, the student was black and male.



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

[Does she or doesn't she today? Only Barbara at Metz & Kerchner knows for sure.]



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:59:09 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Don Nelson puts behind



On Sat, 18 Nov 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> Can't buy it. Clause-mates ought to trigger reflexives.

>

> For example, in 'John moved the skunk away from himself,' the skunk is the

> target of the moving (not John), and 'him' would not be coreferential.

>

> I still find it odd and still think that the metaphoric sense is related to

> the variation.

>

> Compare

> John put the skunk behind himself

>

> with

>

> John put the argument behind him.

>

> I can't reverse the pronouns (and still keep the coreferential).

I'm still working my way throughl y e-mail after two weeks in Mexico

(Cuyernavaca). Maybe smoebody has ready said this about Nelson put it

behind (him), but I have a couple of obvservations.



(1). My intuition is NELSON PUT HIS TROUBLES BEHIND *HIMSELF is worse

than NELSON PUT HIS HANDS BEHIND ?HIMSELF--the differencd seems to have

soething to do with whether weare dealing with 'motion' (however

metaphorical) or 'location'. Compare THEY PUT (TIED) THEIR HANDS EHIND

THEM and THEY PUT (TIED) THEIR HANDS BEHIND THEMSELVES.



(2). RE: "This is called closure in sports, and Nelson seemed as ready as

anyone to put behind this sordid chapter in his otherwise sparkling

career." It seems to me that a kind of analogy is at work here; cf. " . .

. Nelson seemed as ready as anyone to put AWAY this sordid chapter in his

otherwise sparkling career." or ". . . put DOWN . . ."; or ". . . put UP

. . ."; etc.

   BEHIND is a very felxible word, even for English, changing parts of

speech at will. (I remember Don Nelson's behind very well, having been in

college with him/it and having perused him at a fairly close social

distance.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:56:57 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



Sports people use "oh" in citing win-loss records: "six and four for the

season and four and oh in conference play."  Obviously I'm not referring

to Mizzou football here. I'm sure I've heard "oh" in reference to scores,

unlike Larry Horn. Also "zip."



1906 is also nineteen ought six.       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 15:15:28 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



Right, "4 and oh". Also "oh for four" (a batter in baseball, a foul-shooter in

basketball, a hockey team on power plays, etc.). But I'm sure I've never heard

of a team winning "4 to oh" or "4-oh". On the other hand, a birthday can be

"the big 4-oh", i.e. one's 40th.



 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:35:38 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



>But I'm sure I've never heard of a team winning "4 to oh" or "4-oh".



Me neither. It's either "4-nothing" or "4-zip." "4-oh" seems to be reserved

for grade point averages (and birthdays).



Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:40:13 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Crawford's "Hold Your Tongue"



I assume some ADS members (perhaps many) have seen James Crawford's book "Hold

Your Tongue: Bilingualism and the Politics of 'English Only'" (Addison-Wesley,

1992). I've given it a fairly close reading and wondered what the general

opinion of this book is, and in particular, how credible Crawford's assertions

are concerning the funding sources for US English (links to Federation for

American Immigration Reform and the Pioneer Fund, for example).



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:46:12 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



It may be the last bastion of /hw/ is broadcast school. We have a local news

anchor who routinely hypercorrects /hw/ in 'weapons' and assiduously uses /hw/

elsewhere. May be like the example Raven McDavid used to cite--the /njun dey

nuwz/--where the /nj/ pronunciation was presumed to be more elevated than plain

old /n/. As a native speaker of /hw/ from Chicago, I feel like the last of a

dying breed here in NE Wisconsin, where /hw/ is rare.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:03:05 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



It just occurred to me that, in many situations at least, "zero" and "oh"

alternate predictably with each other, depending on the position within a

set of numbers. "Zero" occurs in initial position (e.g. "zero-one-one"), and

"oh" occurs medially and in coda position (e.g. "one-oh-one" or "one-one-oh"

[unless the grouping changes and the number becomes "one-ten," which might

make for another interesting discussion]). Perhaps the zip-code citation

earlier, where the person used zeros instead of ohs, is an example of

a new phrasing rule that causes each of the zeros occurring initially instead

of medially (i.e. there are five ungrouped units now instead of the former

one, which contained five grouped numbers).



Just a thought.



Bruce

(bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 13:26:39 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



So does anyone pronounce "who" as hwoo, or woo? How come "who" doesn't fit in

with the other wh words?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 16:42:18 EST

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



I do use, and have heard, initial "oh" for the digit zero. When I'm

reading ISBN numbers out loud (something my job has me do regularly,

because it's the fastest way to get book prices from publishers),

I'll say (for example) "oh one three..." rather than "zero one three."

When I lived in Connecticut, I gave my zip code as "oh six five two oh,"

and the children's program Zoom gave theirs as "oh two one three five,"

rather than "zero two one three five" (they also gave their post office

box as "three five oh," which is consistent with Bruce's observation).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 23:32:55 -0500

From:  MICHAEL M FARRELL <mmfarr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



I am always wondering when reading numbers why individuals state, "Number

ooooh." Rather than letter o. I believe people are confused as to what

they are actually saying. I have always used zero, as to mean

0....nothing,nada! And, the letter o, as to mean oooooh!



It is finished!

Robyn Farrell

mmfarr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Nov 1995 to 28 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 36 messages totalling 755 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. toboggan (3)

 2. Heartburns

 3. Merc? (4)

 4. Separate dialects? (3)

 5. Mary/merry/marry

 6. /w/ and /hw/ (2)

 7. /w/ and /hw/ (and /hyu/ and "R")

 8. Open Mic (2)

 9. suck (eggs)

 10. -head (11)

 11. <No subject given>

 12. -heads (2)

 13. sneakers (4)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 08:16:58 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: toboggan



>Jim Stalker is right on about the 'tobaggon' business in KY (at least

>Louisville area). I'm not sure if my use was idiosyncratic, but for me

>(growing up in the same place at roughly the same time), a 'tobaggon'

>additionally required an elongated top, with, perhaps, the prototypical

>form having a fuzzy ball on the end. I had no term for 'knit cap' till I

>was blown north in the 60's.

>Perhaps we had names for only the cartoonish forms of this outerwear down

>in Louisville since, unlike here in East Lansing, we didn't need the damn

>things so often

>Dennis 'Cold-ears' Preston

><preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



I call the thing a tobaggon whether it is elongated or not. I learned the

word from my mother when I was wee thing in Texas. People have corrected

me and told me that a tobaggon is a sled. The thing on my head is supposed

to be called a knit cap. My central Georgia wife did not even know what I

was talking about when I said that I was going to wear my tobaggon. She

won't let me wear the one I got from Lake Titicaca because, she says, I

look like a fool in it. A child in the Wal-Mart Parking lot called me

Santa Claus once when I had it on.



Speaking of Santa Claus, I heard three black males about the age of Beavis

and Butthead on Saturday in the Macon Mall pun their way past three white

females of a similar age and class, saying "HO, HO, HO" in a loud voice

(i.e., "whore, whore, whore").  However, black college students told me

last week that "ho" (i.e., "whore") now refers to a promiscuous male; a

promiscuous female is called a "freak." The etymological explanation

offered to me posited that the new meaning for "freak" comes from Atlanta's

"Freaknik" since this party offers numerous opportunities for one-time

anonymous sex ("which is the best way to have it," the student said).









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 08:54:37 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Heartburns



The plural (or whatever it is) of heartburn seems related to the similar

phenomenon in "cramps," "measles," "hives," "the dry heaves," "the runs,"

"scabbies," "the farts," "the shits," "hiccups/hiccoughs," "the Hershey

squirts," "mumps," and others I cannot think of. Surely, a bit of folk

etymology could make "rabies" out to be some kind of plural.



On occasion, I have joked and claimed that I had "the burps," "the gasses,"

and "the dribble pisses."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:22:32 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: toboggan



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> (i.e., "whore, whore, whore").  However, black college students told me

> last week that "ho" (i.e., "whore") now refers to a promiscuous male; a

> promiscuous female is called a "freak." The etymological explanation

> offered to me posited that the new meaning for "freak" comes from Atlanta's

> "Freaknik" since this party offers numerous opportunities for one-time

> anonymous sex ("which is the best way to have it," the student said).



I don't think this is a new usage, or not very new. What about that '70s

song "Superfreak" ("She's a freak--superfreaky!")? "Freak" is also used

in this sense in Spike Lee's _School Daze_, which is about eight (??)

years old.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 09:39:22 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Merc?



I have heard the term "Merc" a lot recently

as an abbreviated form of "Mercedes."



The funny thing is, I KNOW I've heard this term

used to refer to "Mercury."



Anyone else?



(Point of some interest: I think all of the

"Mercedes" references have been made by

Europeans and/or well-traveled individuals.

Coincidence?)



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 10:20:15 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: toboggan



In my family, we call it just a "boggin" (Atlanta, GA)



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 10:27:20 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Separate dialects?



Tim Frazer wrote:

>

>I think one reason is that that distincition was made by Kurath's Word

>Geography, which is based on lexicon. But the lexicon which underlies

>much of the word geography represents a bygone way of life. Since people

>do not, for example, make cottage cheese at home anymore, disntinctions

>like "Dutch Cheese" vs. "pot cheese" have disappeared (according to the

>maps, "pot cheese" was in the Hudson Valley & came from the Dutch who

>were there 200 years ago). I don't think the Hudson Valley was ever set

>apart by phonology or morphosyntax.



This is interesting to me, since my work is mostly on the lexicon, which is

seen by many as marking only superficial dialect differences compared with the

more important phon. and syn. ("structural") diffs. Kurath claimed that where

one finds lexical diffs, there are likely to be other types of diffs as well.

I would add that cultural features would be lilkely to differ too.



Are there other areas that people think are marked only by lexicon but not by

other features? I would expect the vocabulary to behave differently because

the rate of lg. change there seems more rapid and because of differences in

acquisition. I'd like to hear more on this topic.



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 10:30:03 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Mary/merry/marry



I have a student who is doing an honors thesis on the merger of

merry/marry/Mary in the South and I would appreciate references if anyone has

seen this merger mentioned in recent works. One of those things that you know

you've seen it but just can't remember where. Thanks.



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:30:13 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Subj:  RE: /w/ and /hw/



>So does anyone pronounce "who" as hwoo, or woo? How come "who" doesn't fit in

>with the other wh words?

>-- Jim



 Maybe because of the [uw] diphthong--but that's a guess.* In OE "who" was

"hwa:, while "whole" was "ha:l"--incorrectly respelled to its present <wh>

(just like "whore"which is cognate with Lat. "cara" ), both of which are

reconstructed with an Indo-European *k.



 If you want to see some REAL confusion, take a look at "whoop(ing)":

[h ~ w ~ hw].



Suzanne



*Nor have I heard, even from diehards who swear they have /hw/, "whose" with

[hw].



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:17:43 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Separate dialects?



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



I used to live in the Hudson Valley in northern Westchester / southern Putnam

counties (Lake Carmel-Brewster and south) and with most recently suburbanized a-

reas it's difficult finding "natives" of the area. When my inlaws moved up to

Lake Shenorock / Somers area in the late 30's it was sparsely populated and

farmed. The major road was route 100, two-lane concrete with gravel shoulders,

which you could take all the way up to Vermont. There were NYC commuter trains

to the city and, subsequently, parkways by Robert Moses. After the war north of

White Plains became rapidly suburbanized but northern Westchester and southern

Putnam took another decade or so.



In the 30's the only population you'd find were "natives" such as WGEUS

surveyed; with suburbanization outmigration of the city's white population

radically changed the area. My wife's parents were Bavarian and there were lots

of Germans and Italians in Shenorock ("lots" in a community of 500).

Subsequent outmigration of the city's middle class to the suburbs brought

another mix. So I wouldn't be surprised to find that the Dutch substratum

(stoop, pot cheese, &c.) is mostly missing.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 10:51:37 -0700

From:  Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: /w/ and /hw/



I believe that the /njun dey nuwz/ example was first described by David

DeCamp in his study of San Francisco English, but I can't seem to find the

reference right now.



Interestingly, Joyce Penfield and Jacob Ornstein-Galicia include the merger

of /w/ and /hw/ as a characteristic of Chicano English (1985 _Chicano

English:an ethnic contact dialect._), which suggests at least that they

must have the contrast between /w/ and /hw/ and that they assume Anglos

from the El Paso area do as well.





>

>Date:  Tue, 28 Nov 1995 14:46:12 -0500

>From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

>Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/

>

>It may be the last bastion of /hw/ is broadcast school. We have a local news

>anchor who routinely hypercorrects /hw/ in 'weapons' and assiduously uses /hw/

>elsewhere. May be like the example Raven McDavid used to cite--the /njun dey

>nuwz/--where the /nj/ pronunciation was presumed to be more elevated than plain

>old /n/. As a native speaker of /hw/ from Chicago, I feel like the last of a

>dying breed here in NE Wisconsin, where /hw/ is rare.

>



Marianna Di Paolo

m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m.cc.utah.edu

Linguistics Program

2300 LNCO

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, UT  84112



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 11:49:14 -0600

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Separate dialects?



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995 EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU wrote:

>

> This is interesting to me, since my work is mostly on the lexicon, which is

> seen by many as marking only superficial dialect differences compared with the

> more important phon. and syn. ("structural") diffs. Kurath claimed that where

> one finds lexical diffs, there are likely to be other types of diffs as well.

> I would add that cultural features would be lilkely to differ too.

>

> Are there other areas that people think are marked only by lexicon but not by

> other features? I would expect the vocabulary to behave differently because

> the rate of lg. change there seems more rapid and because of differences in

> acquisition. I'd like to hear more on this topic.

>

> Ellen Johnson

> ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu

>

There are places in Illinois like this. On the LANCS field records, "cow

yard" sets apart Jo Daviess County (in NW Ill) aprt from the rest of the

state. This redsponse was given by all 3 LANCS informants. Shuys's

Midland speech island in NW Illinois is mostly a lexical phenomenon. In

my PhD diss. there are some lexical items that highlight old settlement

routes like the Cumberland Road (now I-70) and the Ohio River where some

Pa German stuff turns up. See also Gordon Woods PADS (or AS) pice from

about 35 or 40 years ago, where lexicon highlights Midland traders'

routes thru Alabama and (?) I think Georgia.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:22:51 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/ (and /hyu/ and "R")



The distinction between /w/ and /hw/ is alive and well in central Georgia.

Students are amazed that my pronunciation of "which" is the same as my

pronunciation of "witch."



They also favor aspiration in "humor" [hyum[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r], aspiration that I don't have.





QUESTION: In other r-less dialects how do people pronounce the letter "R"?

 My r-less mother-in-law was carefully reciting the alphabet to my amazing

two-year-old the other night and said "R" with two syllables as something

like [a-r[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. Do other r-less people share this pronunciation?



[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:29:17 PST

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: Merc?



Aren't the two pronounced differently, even though spelled alike?



The name ends in /s/



The car ends in /k/



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:39:28 PST

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: Merc?



Addendum



As an aged Dodge driver, I thought that _Mercedes_ referred to a female name

such as Mercedes McCambridge. Since I don't associate with people who drive

Mercedes Benzes, or rather perhaps, they don't associate with me, I cannot

recall hearing anyone refer to one with the shortened name. But still, the

name of the automobile has an /s/ at the appropriate place--not that that

rules out the reported shortening to a form ending with /k/.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:31:40 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



HOw was "Merc" pronounced? /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk/ or /m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rs/?



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:33:41 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Open Mic



One of the dept. groups has "Open microphone" poetry meetings at a local

restaurant. On posters, they specify "OPEN MIC" meetings.



I have always seen short versions of microphone spelled "mike."



When I look at their posters, I think "Open Mick."



What do other campus g roups do?



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:36:44 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: suck (eggs)



I've heard about dogs that suck eggs all my life (southcentral TX,

originally.) The idea is that a dog that sucks eggs is totally nocount.



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:39:10 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: -head



I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the earliest

you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

You can send them to the list, or to me at

humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

Thanks in advance,

Greg Pulliam

Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 15:04:54 -0500

From:  "Winfield, Laurie" <lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RINET.HUNTON.COM>

Subject: Re: -head



I heard someone describe someone else as a gearhead, in 1980-81 in Chicago.

 No idea as to meaning.

 ----------

From: American Dialect Society

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

Subject: -head

Date: Wednesday, November 29, 1995 2:46PM



I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the

earliest

you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

You can send them to the list, or to me at

humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

Thanks in advance,

Greg Pulliam

Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:24:59 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Does "blockhead" pre-date Charlie Brown?



> I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

> of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

> upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the earliest

> you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

> You can send them to the list, or to me at

> humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

> Thanks in advance,

> Greg Pulliam

> Chicago

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 15:37:07 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: -head



>

> Does "blockhead" pre-date Charlie Brown?



By about 400 years. 1549 in OED, for example.



JTS



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 15:29:00 EST

From:  Joe Comeau <comeauj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ROSNET.STROSE.EDU>

Subject: <No subject given>



BONEHEAD - heard it used on the radio in New York City, circa 1989

dont forget the infamous MEATHEAD.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 15:40:12 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: -head



I don't have it in front of me, but I think that DARE Vol II has -head

combs at the *head* entry.



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:49:55 CST

From:  Lisa Pogoff <POGOFFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MDH-ENVH.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US>

Subject: Re: -heads



A few years ago I started hearing "chip-heads" for the guys that were

computer chip gurus.



Lisa Pogoff

Community Relations Coordinator

Site Assessment and Consultation Unit

Minnesota Department of Health

Phone 612/215-0916

Fax 612/215-0975

Internet: lisa.pogoff[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]health.state.mn.us

Work Days: M-Th



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:34:56 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



I believe a gearhead is a person who's into fixing engines, cars, hot

rodding, etc. One doesn't hear it much anymore.



Bob



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Winfield, Laurie wrote:



> I heard someone describe someone else as a gearhead, in 1980-81 in Chicago.

> No idea as to meaning.

> ----------

> From: American Dialect Society

> To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

> Subject: -head

> Date: Wednesday, November 29, 1995 2:46PM

>

> I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

> of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

> upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the

> earliest

> you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

> You can send them to the list, or to me at

> humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

> Thanks in advance,

> Greg Pulliam

> Chicago

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:39:38 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: -head



>

> I believe a gearhead is a person who's into fixing engines, cars, hot

> rodding, etc. One doesn't hear it much anymore.



The _Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ defines

_gearhead_ as "a student majoring in engineering or a related

subject; (also) an engineer or person skilled in mechanics," and

supplies citations from 1974, 1974, 1987, 1990, 1991, and 1992.



"Chiphead," alluded to by another poster, is first on record

in 1982 in HDAS.



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:39:59 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Greg: Does your search preclude a term like "talking head"--used, most often

by print media types (like myself), for a TV news reader? I don't know when

it originated, beyond the fact that it predates the rock group Talking Heads.



Jerry Miller

Franklin (Ind.) College

[speaking only for myself, of course]



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:47:31 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: -heads



My recollection of "gearhead" is that it referred to someone who was into

automobiles, mechanically speaking, maybe even specially racing cars.

Also, there are "Deadheads" in the non-railroad sense, for the followers of

the Grateful Dead, although I assume, with the demise of Garcia, they may

finally be, literally, a dying breed.



Jerry Miller (again)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 14:53:26 -0700

From:  Laurie M Bowman <bowman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.ARIZONA.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



A "gearhead" is someone who is a fanatic about working on

cars/motorcycles.



A good friend of mine uses "-head" ALL THE TIME (in a very informal

context). She has extended its

meaning from applying to people to applying to things, too. For example,

if I'd ask her what she was having for dinner, she might say

"Hamburgerheads." On the other hand, if her boyfriend ate too many

hamburgers at one sitting, she might call HIM a hamburgerhead!! I've

never heard anyone else apply "-head" to objects like she does. She is a

little weird, though. :)



As far as "normal" usage goes, there's always, of course, "airhead",

which I've heard since the early 80's.



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Winfield, Laurie wrote:



> I heard someone describe someone else as a gearhead, in 1980-81 in Chicago.

> No idea as to meaning.

> ----------

> From: American Dialect Society

> To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

> Subject: -head

> Date: Wednesday, November 29, 1995 2:46PM

>

> I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

> of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

> upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the

> earliest

> you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

> You can send them to the list, or to me at

> humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

> Thanks in advance,

> Greg Pulliam

> Chicago

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 13:51:49 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: -head



>>I heard someone describe someone else as a gearhead, in 1980-81 in Chicago.

>> No idea as to meaning.          ^^^^^^^^



My guess is that a gearhead is someone overly enthused with rebuilding or

working on cars.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 16:50:29 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: Open Mic



"Mic" is not only student usage here at UW-Green Bay; it's also the usage of

the "media professionals" in Media Services--even though they pronounce it

/majk/. In my deaning days I saw "mics" on media equipment proposals all the

time. I believe I have seen the same usage on similar proposals from other U of

Wisconsin System campuses.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 19:08:45 EST

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



How about butthead? Or nuthead. Shithead. Missilehead. Warhead.



Sorry, but that's all we can think of here in the pod (a part of a

residence hall, not a dorm!!! Or so they say, anyway). Hope it helps!



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III



"Things are gonna get easier."

    The Five Stair Steps



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:10:22 -0700

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: sneakers



Is the "sneaker"-"tennis shoe" distinction purely regional? Do some

people use both with a different meaning attached to each? I come from

Phila., and I used to use only the term "sneaker", but out here in

Boulder, Colorado, it seems that "tennis shoe" is used exclusively. Any

insight?



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 20:58:24 -0500

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: sneakers



>Date:     Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:10:22 -0700

>From: POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

>Sender:    American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>



>Is the "sneaker"-"tennis shoe" distinction purely regional? Do some

>people use both with a different meaning attached to each? I come from

>Phila., and I used to use only the term "sneaker", but out here in

>Boulder, Colorado, it seems that "tennis shoe" is used exclusively. Any

>insight?

>

I'm from Seattle, and "sneaker" was a word used fifteen years or more ago

and sounds old-fashioned to me. With the big boom in super designed

athletic shoes to everyday people, "tennis" tends to now mean shoes for

tennis and I don't think I would feel comfortable using that term anymore

either.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 21:09:17 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



Thanks! I doubt if I would have noticed this, but



I grew up on tennis shoes. But now, when I mean the all purpose,

not for a specific function, canvas shoe thing, I say/think sneaker.

And yes, I think it's because, running shoes are for running, aerobic

shoes are for aerobics, and I can't afford them, but if I could, my

tennis shoes would be for tennis. And I'd still need sneakers.



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 29 Nov 1995 21:15:22 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I always thought that "sneakers" was a yankee term. They've always been

"tennis shoes" in Mississippi -- or at least all of my fairly long life.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Nov 1995 to 29 Nov 1995

************************************************





There are 43 messages totalling 914 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. -head (14)

 2. sneakers (12)

 3. w-hw

 4. Merc? -Reply

 5. sneakers -Reply

 6. Net Resources (was Re: w-hw)

 7. Merc? (5)

 8. Zero or "o"? (2)

 9. Bounced Mail

 10. -heads

 11. So fun (2)

 12. /w/ and /hw/

 13. I before E



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 00:12:39 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: -head



>I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

>of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

>upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the earliest

>you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

>You can send them to the list, or to me at

>humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

>Thanks in advance,

>Greg Pulliam

>Chicago

>

My exwife (Canadian/Massachussetts) referred to people who slept late as



              "jellyeads"



Seth Sklarey

Coconut Grove, FL

crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 00:17:51 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: -head



>Does "blockhead" pre-date Charlie Brown?

>

>> I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

>> of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

>> upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the earliest

>> you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

>> You can send them to the list, or to me at

>> humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

>> Thanks in advance,

>> Greg Pulliam

>> Chicago

>>

>

>

How about bonehead? (Fla 1970's)

Deadhead (Grateful Dead 1st national tour 1967?)

Dredhead (Jamaica 1970's)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 00:27:11 -0500

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: sneakers



>Thanks! I doubt if I would have noticed this, but

>

>I grew up on tennis shoes. But now, when I mean the all purpose,

>not for a specific function, canvas shoe thing, I say/think sneaker.

>And yes, I think it's because, running shoes are for running, aerobic

>shoes are for aerobics, and I can't afford them, but if I could, my

>tennis shoes would be for tennis. And I'd still need sneakers.

>

>Beth Simon

>

>



AKA Keds



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 00:32:08 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Don't forget 'dittoheads', for (at least) fans of Rush Limbaugh. Maybe it's

just as well if they invented the term; it's hard to imagine admirers of, say,

Adlai Stevenson or Garry Wills or Stephen Jay Gould referring to themselves in

that way.  L



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 01:55:24 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: -head



On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Greg Pulliam wrote:



> I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

> of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

> upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the earliest

> you've heard it used and where you've heard it.



How about "fathead." My dad seemed to think it was Harry Truman's first name.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 02:18:38 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I up in NC with "tennis shoes" in ref to athletic shoes--60s and 70s.

But I now tend to refer to specific types of footwear when I'm being

specific, especially when I'm talking running shoes. But when I'm

speaking very off the cuff, I still fall into using tennis shoes to refer

to any type of athletic shoe. BTW, I also used to use "Keds"

interchangeably with "tennis shoes", but not so with "P.F. Flyers" which

were worn by Jonny Quest. Sigh, nostalgia.



Bob



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Benjamin Barrett wrote:



> I'm from Seattle, and "sneaker" was a word used fifteen years or more ago

> and sounds old-fashioned to me. With the big boom in super designed

> athletic shoes to everyday people, "tennis" tends to now mean shoes for

> tennis and I don't think I would feel comfortable using that term anymore

> either.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 07:36:27 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: w-hw



Chrisssie, you suggested that I send "a reading list to bring us up to

speed on the basics, symbols etc., and perhaps some audio or video tapes

so we can hear the sounds."



I think you may be interested in the conversation I had with a reference

librarian here yesterday. We are proposing to put webpages online directing

beginning students to common linguistic resources. I want to have them

available for students in my ling. classes.



Right now, it would be helpful to know if other ling. profs have created

such items or would be interested in contributing suggestions.



Marie and I think of putting together beta-versions of the ff. during the

Spring semester:



Intro to Ling (intro books, tapes, videos, e-sources, etc., including library

resources like LLBA)



Intro to Dictionaries (standard, specialized, weird, online, etc.)



Intro to Variation in English



Intro to Variation in Other Languages



Suggestions, references are most welcome.



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:45:44 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: Merc? -Reply



Tom:



I was visiting a friend in Northeast Philly recently, sitting on a

stoop and enjoying some late warm weather, and I heard a mother next

door calling for her daughter, "Portia." I thought, how lovely, in

this disadvantaged neighborhood, to hear a Shakespearean name. My

friend laughed at me and corrected me (called me a blockhead in fact,

but that's another thread)--the girl's name was "Porsche". I was

crushed.



Now, about the -head list:



>From my not so distant youth in south central PA (PA Dutch land),

allow me to contribute muttonhead, picklehead, and dumbdumbhead.



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:49:46 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: sneakers -Reply



Anybody else refer to the little white canvas sneaks as "bobos"? Or

(apologies for the slur) "faggy whites"?



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:13:37 -0500

From:  "Suzanne Legault: English" <E7E4LEG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TOE.TOWSON.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



1.  Spotted on the dusty window of a colleague's car:



    Carla is a poopbutthead



 without doubt the handiwork of her eight-year-old brother.



2.  From Colin Powell's autoiography:



    The new jargon was coming into vogue. It was during this period

[mid-seventies] that the old mess hall gave way to the "dining facility" and

the old mess sergeant became the "dining facility manager." The post laundry

became the "Installation Fabricare Facility." I almost gagged. [p.220]



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:19:06 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Net Resources (was Re: w-hw)



> Suggestions, references are most welcome.



You might find some useful resources at http://www.msstate.edu/Dept/English/

lang.html -- which is also linked to the ADS pages as something like "Net

Resources of Interest to ADS Members" (http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/)

and to the SECOL pages (http://www.msstate.edu/Org/SECOL/).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:52:40 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



>Aren't the two pronounced differently, even though spelled alike?

>

>The name ends in /s/

>

>The car ends in /k/



No, the two usages in question are

pronounced alike - /mIrk/.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:56:11 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: -head



I'm not sure I remember this right, but I've heard it said that a person starts

out in life (infancy) as a meathead, matures into a bonehead, and ends up an

egghead (or was it airhead?)



Ellen



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 09:00:09 -0600

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: sneakers



I'm not sure if this is idiosyncratic, regional, or what, but I use sneakers to

mean those cheap canvas ones that are wwworn in the summer and come in a

rainbow of colors (I have some with sequins glued on), and tennis shoes to mean

the fancier running, walking, basketball, etc ad nauseum shoes.



Ellen JOhnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu





>From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 29-NOV-1995 18:11:27.85

>Subj: sneakers

>

>Is the "sneaker"-"tennis shoe" distinction purely regional? Do some

>people use both with a different meaning attached to each? I come from

>Phila., and I used to use only the term "sneaker", but out here in

>Boulder, Colorado, it seems that "tennis shoe" is used exclusively. Any

>insight?

>

>Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:14:29 EST

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



If both are [mIrk] then that's odd: the Daimler-Benz auto is [mer'tsedIs bEnts]

and the American one is [m3rk]. You say these are Europeans who have

appropriated the [mIrk] pronunciation? ... how odd!



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

        David Bergdahl

            Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:05:35 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Parrotheads! (Jimmy Buffet fans)



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:06:06 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I always call them "gym shoes."



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:25:31 -0600

From:  Jim McCulloch <mcculloch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



How about "wirehead," a computer hardware wizard, and "propellerhead," a

computer nerd? Both words are in the Jargon File (aka Hacker's Dictionary)

along with the term "zipperhead" for a close-minded person.

--Jim McCulloch



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:32:36 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I don't know about that. We always called them "tennis shoes" when I was

growing up in Portland, Or.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I always thought that "sneakers" was a yankee term. They've always been

> "tennis shoes" in Mississippi -- or at least all of my fairly long life.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:40:35 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



In my experience, /mIrk/ = Mercury. Only slang for Mercedes Benz I have

heard is simply "Benz".

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> >Aren't the two pronounced differently, even though spelled alike?

> >

> >The name ends in /s/

> >

> >The car ends in /k/

>

> No, the two usages in question are

> pronounced alike - /mIrk/.

>

> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

> ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

> ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

> ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

> ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

> ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

> ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

> ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 08:57:41 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Didn't one of the villains in Capt. America refer to the hero as "Winghead"?

Several years ago I started hearing "doughhead" for an exceptionally stupid

or inept person.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu





On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Jim McCulloch wrote:



> How about "wirehead," a computer hardware wizard, and "propellerhead," a

> computer nerd? Both words are in the Jargon File (aka Hacker's Dictionary)

> along with the term "zipperhead" for a close-minded person.

> --Jim McCulloch

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:19:14 -0500

From:  Stephanie Strassel <strassel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I grew up in Cincinnati calling them gym shoes. This seems to be the

predominant term in the Cincinnati and Dayton, OH area.



Stephanie Strassel

Department of Linguistics

University of Pennsylvania





>

> I always call them "gym shoes."

>

> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

> ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

> ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

> ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

> ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

> ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

> ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

> ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

> ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:23:18 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



>In my experience, /mIrk/ = Mercury. Only slang for Mercedes Benz I have

>heard is simply "Benz".

>Allen

>maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



Well, see, that's what I used to swear by.

But from another list, here's an example:



>Subject:   Re: Anybody drives a Merc here? (fwd)

>

>At 06:17 AM 11/30/95 +0900, you wrote:

>

>>Any idea how I would distinguish in English between "traction control"

>>as the BMW 5-series has, and "Anfahrhilfe" as the Benz does?

>>

>You might try the MB WWW-Site, it comes with an up-to-date glossary!!



Of course, that's in writing, but

I definitely have heard it spoken as well.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I  ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu        ;

;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                  ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX        ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:50:15 -0500

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON <BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



Re: sneaker/tennis shoe



When I was much younger, I found that I had to make certain changes in my

vocabulary every summer as I moved back and forth between New Jersey (old home)

and Chicago (new home). In New Jersey I had to remember to say sneakers or

sneaks and in Chicago I had to remember to call them tennis shoes or gym shoes.

I also heard some of the boys call them keds or high tops, but I forget where I

was at the time.



  Other things I had to remember:

    New Jersey BUNS   Chicago SWEET ROLLS

          Bread       Light or White Bread

          Soda       Pop

          ____       Berm



BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 10:21:41 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



During my childhood in southern California, the distinction was quite

clear. "Tennis shoes," at least for boys, were the ubiquitous high-topped,

black-and-white Keds. Maybe another company made similar shoes, but I

don't remember any other brand. At some point, brown ones were introduced

(brown and white instead of black and white). "Sneakers," on the other

hand, were low-topped canvas street shoes, came in colors, and were not

connected with any kind of athletic activity. Later I learned, to my

surprise, that there was also something called a "tennis shoe" that looked

like a sneaker. I think it was worn only by girls or by actual tennis

players.



When I moved to Oregon, I was as surprised (and vaguely irritated) to hear

the old high tops called "gym shoes" as I was to learn of something called

a "gym," an unnatural place for activities that belonged outdoors.



They still make sneakers. The new-fangled things are "Nikes" or maybe

"running shoes," unless you need to be precise.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:17:46 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



DARE has examples of -head going back to 1894 with Mark Twain's -Pudd'nhead

Wilson_. (See _head_ n section C)



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 12:26:03 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Merc?



My husband and I have a (third-hand) 1970 Mercedes which we have always

called "the Merc [m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rk]." I suspect it's partly to detach ourselves from

the prevailing image of Mercedes owners.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:07:44 EST

From:  Sonja Lanehart <LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



When I was growing up we called them tennis shoes, tenny shoes, or

tennies. I still use those terms sometimes. I know others in my family

still do. But since I actually play tennis and have to buy shoes for

that sport, I usually call them tennis shoes. When I want shoes for

other purposes, I modify them accordingly (e.g., dress shoes, walking

shoes, etc.)



*******************************************************************

Sonja L. Lanehart

254 Park Hall           Office: (706) 542-2260

Department of English       Home:  (706) 543-7598

The University of Georgia     Fax:   (706) 542-2181

Athens, GA 30602-6205       E-Mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

*******************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:39:58 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



On Mon, 27 Nov 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> Of course the Operator position was originally keyed to O because the latter

> was referred to as "oh", or so I assume. Anyway, the one position we NEVER get

> 'zero' is in referring to years like 1903--yet there's no possibility of

> analyzing that as '19-operator-3'. I have a feeling the full range of labels

> is complicated and pretty interesting. In sports scores, for instance, the

> losing score is "nothing" (never "oh" and rarely "zero") if it's baseball or

> football, "nil" if it's soccer, and "love" if it's tennis. Otherwise, 0 is

> usually "oh" for reasons of least effort in house addresses, dates, etc., but

> as Marla points out this may change in computer addresses, as it already has

> to some extent in other contexts where the value of a particular alphanumeric

> symbol is otherwise unrecoverable (as between letter "O" and number "0") and

> where the distinction matters--license plates, vehicle IDs,...



Let me further complicate the matter: my grandfather (and other Iowans of

his generation--and maybe my father as well [b. 1912]) said "nineteen

aught three" for 1903. "Aught" was pretty poplular, at least in Iowa, in

the earlier part of this century.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:20:24 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



Ah, and let us not forget "Eraserhead" from the strange (Russell?) movie of

the same name--I know not if it has any more general application than within

the context of that film, and, as I recall, I never quite figured out the

context there!



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 13:59:35 -0600

From:  Miriam Meyers <mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUS1.MSUS.EDU>

Subject: Re: sneakers



I grew up in Georgia (b. 1941) and was, until I moved steadily north- and

westward, a tennis shoe speaker. Now I say a variety of things (sneakers,

walking shoes, running shoes, aerobic shoes), but never tennis shoes while

in the non-South because I think it would be taken as a more technical term

than it actually is (was?).

    Miriam Meyers, Metropolitan State University, Mpls/St. Paul





>I always thought that "sneakers" was a yankee term. They've always been

>"tennis shoes" in Mississippi -- or at least all of my fairly long life.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



Miriam Meyers

Metropolitan State University

mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:48:52 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Zero or "o"?



(On "Nineteen aught three", as brought up by Ron Butters--)



Right, as in the "Naughty Aughties", another round of which will be coming up

before we know it. Do any other ADS-ers have any predictions on what the

coming decade will be called? Or the one after it, for that matter? (This

question has been entertained by Safire in his On Language columns, but of

course inconclusively.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 15:28:30 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:47:47 -0500

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACPUB.DUKE.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>0561 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

>----------------- Message in error (36 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 14:48:12 -0500 (EST)

> From: Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu>

> Subject: Re: sneakers

>

> It is (or used to be) regional. There was an article about thils in

> AMERICAN SPEECH several years ago.

>

> On Wed, 29 Nov 1995, POLSKY ELLEN S wrote:

>

> > Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 17:10:22 -0700

> > From: POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

> > Subject: sneakers

> >

> > Is the "sneaker"-"tennis shoe" distinction purely regional? Do some

> > people use both with a different meaning attached to each? I come from

> > Phila., and I used to use only the term "sneaker", but out here in

> > Boulder, Colorado, it seems that "tennis shoe" is used exclusively. Any

> > insight?

> >

> > Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)

> >



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:33:40 -0500

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: -heads



Uh, has anybody mentioned "lunkhead" yet (the fact that I don't remember if

anyone did probably qualifies me as one?)?



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 17:08:52 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: So fun



A colleague just asked me whether I'd ever heard the expression "so fun".



It sounds odd to me, and I THINK I'd say "such fun" or "so much fun", but

I'm not 100% sure that I might not have said "so fun" experimentally as a

kid, or that I have never heard anyone else say it. I can't quite get to

the bottom of my own usage grammatically, since I'm pretty sure that when

I say "It was fun", I'm thinking fun(adj.) and not fun(noun), and if this

is the case, the adverb "so" would be appropriate, not the adjectivess

"such" or "so much".



My colleague says her daughter-in-law, who is from California, says it

all the time, and she wonders if it's California regional usage. If so,

maybe it's regional elsewhere as well. Or is it just idiolectal?



Any thoughts?



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:18:04 -0500

From:  Stephen <lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET>

Subject: Re: sneakers



>Re: sneaker/tennis shoe

>

>When I was much younger, I found that I had to make certain changes in my

>vocabulary every summer as I moved back and forth between New Jersey (old home)

>and Chicago (new home). In New Jersey I had to remember to say sneakers or

>sneaks and in Chicago I had to remember to call them tennis shoes or gym shoes.

>I also heard some of the boys call them keds or high tops, but I forget where I

>was at the time.

>

>  Other things I had to remember:

>    New Jersey BUNS   Chicago SWEET ROLLS

>          Bread       Light or White Bread

>          Soda       Pop

>          ____       Berm

>

>BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu

>

>Where i grew up in Binghamton, NY, we referred to them as "canvas shoes."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:27:29 -0500

From:  Stephen <lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET>

Subject: Re: -head



>I heard someone describe someone else as a gearhead, in 1980-81 in Chicago.

> No idea as to meaning.

> ----------

>From: American Dialect Society

>To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

>Subject: -head

>Date: Wednesday, November 29, 1995 2:46PM

>

>I'm interested in compiling a set of terms using -head as the second element

>of a compound, e.g dickhead, egghead, pothead, acidhead, and here in the

>upper midwest, cheesehead. I'm interested in both the terms and the

>earliest

>you've heard it used and where you've heard it.

>You can send them to the list, or to me at

>humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu

>Thanks in advance,

>Greg Pulliam

>Chicago

>

When I was growing up, we referred to people who worked at IBM as

"zipperheads" i think because they all carried briefcases to work which

they zipped and unzipped..



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:33:04 -0500

From:  Stephen <lwyrnluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IGC.NET>

Subject: Re: sneakers



>I grew up in Georgia (b. 1941) and was, until I moved steadily north- and

>westward, a tennis shoe speaker. Now I say a variety of things (sneakers,

>walking shoes, running shoes, aerobic shoes), but never tennis shoes while

>in the non-South because I think it would be taken as a more technical term

>than it actually is (was?).

>    Miriam Meyers, Metropolitan State University, Mpls/St. Paul

>

>

>>I always thought that "sneakers" was a yankee term. They've always been

>>"tennis shoes" in Mississippi -- or at least all of my fairly long life.

>>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>>

>

>Miriam Meyers

>Metropolitan State University

>mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu

>

My wife informs me that in the Australian outback, where she grew up, people

referred to them as "muckabouts."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 20:33:36 CST

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: -head



Hope you will compile and post the collection of 'head' terms.

pretty interesting. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 21:49:53 -0500

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: -head



On Thu, 30 Nov 1995, Jerry Miller wrote:



> Ah, and let us not forget "Eraserhead" from the strange (Russell?) movie of

> the same name--I know not if it has any more general application than within

> the context of that film, and, as I recall, I never quite figured out the

> context there!



Jerry,



Good one. _Eraserhead_ is David Lynch's first film of profound note.

I always thought the name was in reference to the title character played

by Jack Nance. Weird or not so weird haircut. BTW, has anyone mentioned

"pinhead" as in Zippy the . . . ?



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:26:42 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: So fun



Someone else may be en route to saying this better or with more evidence and

citations, but there's a clear age dialect at work here. 'fun' is definitely

an adjective for those under a certain age. for my kids (now 13 and 11), A

can be funner than B, and C can be the funnest. As Bolinger, Paul, Breal et

al would predict, these are quite distinct from 'funnier', 'funniest', so

there's no logical argument against this particular zero-derivation--except

that in OUR day, back when nouns were nouns, goddammit, 'fun' was a noun and

proud OF it.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 22:42:39 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: /w/ and /hw/



Why isn't "who" pronounced [wu:] or [hwu:]? Because a Middle Endlish to

Modern English change deleted [w] between a consonant and a back vowel, for

example, "two" is [tu:] and "sword" is [sord]. Without analogical leveling,

the past tense of "swear" would be "sore".

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 30 Nov 1995 23:16:52 -0500

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: I before E



Does anyone know the source of the spelling rule, "I before E except after

C..."?

This question came up in Michael Montgomery's response to my paper at the

Southeastern Conference on Linguistics, where I showed that the rule is not

very useful,

and suggested that one spelling, "ceiling," might actually have been based on

that rule.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

Demorest, Ga



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End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 1995 to 30 Nov 1995

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