Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1997 to 1 Nov 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 283 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RE Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) 2. dialect coaches 3. Neck Hue (2) 4. "my bad" (2) 5. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... 6. Ast for Ask (2) 7. "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) 8. "it's all good" 9. apologies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:09:50 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: RE Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) In a message dated 10/30/97 10:57:15 AM, you wrote: I don't agree, and I'm sure my disagreement is the result of different socialization, possibly due to age or peer group. "What the fuck" and "fuck me" (as in "I can't believe how I just is just got screwed") are utilitarian and hardly show up on my sensitivity meter. Jesse's book has several uses of fuck that are fairly generic, to me, at least. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com Fuck yeah.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:12:37 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: dialect coaches In a message dated 10/30/97 2:09:16 PM, you wrote: At least two ADS members are dialect coaches: Allyn Partin and Robert Easton, the latter also known as "The Henry Higgins of Hollywood Inc." They gave a presentation at our 1994 meeting in San Diego. You'll find their addresses in the just-published September issue of the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society. - Allan Metcalf How do I get a copy? Monk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:11:07 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Neck Hue Beverly, When I was an undergrad at IU (before you were born), the locals were called 'cutters' (for the same stone-cutting reasons you mention). When did it change to 'stoneys'? Dennis A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. The social stereotyping extends beyond schoolkids, unfortunately. An ESL teacher here was sneering at the speech of local kids just the other day, noting in particular a neighboring town called Chauncey (how do you all pronounce that name, by the way?) and adding, "Thank goodness my kids are out of school" (presumably to avoid coming "under the influence" any longer). Sadly, a linguist colleague commented that Ohio elementary school teachers should all be required to take courses in teaching ESL so they could teach Standard English as a Second Dialect to these kids. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:38:21 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Neck Hue "Cutters" was the term in the film _Breaking Away_. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:07:43 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" "Bust a move" also means to dance, to get into the rhythm of the music--a term originating with black music/black musicians. Rapper Young MC had a hit song entitled "Bust a Move" a few years ago. On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Monkmag wrote: Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:09:49 EST From: Monkmag Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" In a message dated 10/30/97 3:53:00 AM, you wrote: I also remember the students then starting to say My bus(t) meaning my fault or my embarrassment maybe even coming from "to bus someone out" to show them up. Ditra D-Henry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neiu.edu Actually, I've also heard "bust" used favorably. Especially in basketball. "Nice bust" means nice shot or nice basket. And to "bust a move" is to make a sexual advance on someone, usually a woman. However, a "buster" is a wannabe gang member. There's more, but others can take it from here. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:19:23 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... Monkmag wrote: " And by Italian-Americans when they speak of other "dagos" and "______" (ah, the term escapes me now).... Perhaps folks out there can think of other examples of this tendency, say from Irish or Jews or Latinos. How about "wops" or "wallios" to filll in the blank? In Chicago, when I was growing up, it was common for Irish-Americans to refer to other Irish-Americans as "turkeys." I do not find this sense of _turkey_ recorded in any of the many dictionaries I have. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:33:54 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" Calvin Wiley, choreographer (and director?) of the Rainbow Dance Company, developed an instructional video to teach dance instructors how to teach funk moves. He called his routine, "Bust a move". beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:54:11 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ast for Ask someone writes: Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k. Yes. This is a the phonologial process known as ASSIMILATION. It is why we say MARBLE instead of MARMOL (B M under the influence of the surrounding nonasal sounds--as well as under the influence of the initial M). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:13:49 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) At 05:50 AM 10/30/97 , Duane Campbell wrote: In biology and taxonomy (which is what we are discussing here, whether we know it or not), race is a subdivision of a species, that is, an organism that has recognizable genetically transmitted attributes but is not different enough from others of its ilk to constitute a separate species. There are races of house sparrows and lab rats and begonias. Another word for the same thing is sub-species, but I suspect that applied to humans that could be even more offensive. My understanding is that race (or subspecies) is defined in terms of differential reproductive success. Inasmuch as there not different rates of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human "races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human subspecies or "race." The social category of "race" is, of course, another matter entirely, but there's no biological basis for it. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:53:52 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Ast for Ask Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k. You guys may be making a little too much of "ease of articulation." Ron seemed to say that we move the apex of the tongue way back to make the [k]. I doubt that he meant quite that; I also doubt that all of his brain was in gear as he was typing - like I am sometimes. Do the people who say ast for ask also say bast for bask? And bastet for basket? Some, maybe. "Is he basking in the sun?" "I'll ast him. He's a real bastet case." When an adult says bastet, we assume some sort of defect in maturation, but we attribute ast to dialect or ease-of-articulation assimilation. What gives? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:21:01 -0600 From: Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM Subject: "it's all good" Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the jazz era, but I have no proof. The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:58:14 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: apologies just realized that i sent a note to the mad monk, jim crotty, to the whole list. mea culpa. but apologizing just gives you another annoying messages to delete. mea maxima culpa. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1997 to 1 Nov 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 308 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. thank you . . . thank you 2. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... 3. "it's all good" (8) 4. reflexives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:56:24 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Monkmag wrote: Lost your last missive to me, Lynn. Just giving you a hard time. Yes, banal banter drives me nuts too. Unless, of course, I am the one who wants to engage in banal banter. Don't make like or dislike, as the Zen patriarchs seem to indicate, is probably the best solution. Since the more we cling to our need for silence and privacy, the more the world wants to invade. Monk well, thanks for the hard time. even if i bitch about it, i do like attention. ah, the contrary nature of life. (it ain't for nothin' that my specialty is antonyms.) best, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:31:55 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... Perhaps folks out there can think of other examples of this tendency, say from Irish or Jews or Latinos. There's "freaks" from the 60's. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:34:41 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 1:06:29 AM, you wrote: Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the jazz era, but I have no proof. The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). Like a lot of youth slang, it probably comes from black culture. I've heard it primarily from black kids.... Don't know more than that, though I could wildly conjecture..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:29:46 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" I can't speak to the origin of "it's all good" except to say that it is not in RHDAS, Major's "Juba to Jive" nor Smitherman's "Black Talk." I can say that it is widely used by youths (both male and female, and of all races) across the country. Connie Eble collected it this year at UNC, Pam Munro collected it this year at UCLA (as she did in 1994), and we collected it at CPP. I've also collected it from Cincinatti in an internet survey. Not quite an answer to the origins. I'd be interested to hear if anyone's traced it. Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (900) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:27:08 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:39:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote: Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. I'd be sympathetic in a general way with these sentiments. The issue at hand is what the actual origin and usage-history of "it's all good" is, and that's an open question absent empirical research into the early usage (which someone out there may yet produce). I suspect that when a locution sounds authentic it might seem tempting to say "urban vernacular," i.e., cool, new, with-it, etc. But one could argue (just prima facie, without the empirical evidence that is the only crucial thing) that "it's all good" sounds as much like a new-agey or pop-buddhist phrase (or something like that) as it does like an AAVE phrase. People of African and of European descent are probably more or less equally likely to come up with authentic-sounding vernacular locutions.... Nobody has a monopoly on one type of linguistic innovation or another.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:41:45 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" Thank you Greg man, thank you. Youre so budiful. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:48:38 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Perhaps I should make my conclusions more explicit. At this point, I would doubt that "it's all good" does originate from AAVE since it is not listed in reference works describing the lexicon and since it has been found on university campuses across the country that are not HBCUs nor primarily populated by African American students. None of these data are conclusive one way or the other . . . just tracks. I think people often assume that the sources of slang are AAVE because AAVE has contributed to slang -- especially among youths. Actually, to me, it sounds like the kind of phrase my Texas grandmother would have used . . . but I don't actually recall her using it. Judi Sanders paraindent param out /param Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 /paraindent 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (900) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:35:07 +0000 From: Al Futrell al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote: Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. Well, everything doesn't come from "Black Talk" but generally a term becomes "interesting" when we have never heard it before or don't understand the metaphor which informs it. This is what some ethnographers would call a 'breakdown' - that is, when the researcher's culture and some other culture don't seem to jibe. On this list most of the people are white, so it is logical that "white talk" would be more familiar to them and thus less interesting. Fewer breakdowns and thus the tendency to notice terms foreign to their worldview. --Al Futrell, Dept of Comm, Univ of Louisville --al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu --http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:14:33 -0500 From: Carrie Crockett crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: reflexives In response to the request for information concerning dialect differences and reflexives, I can say that I've certainly found people from my region (Memphis) and maybe from the South in general to use reflexives in more contexts and sometimes in more forms than people from other regions of this country. I myself frequently say things like "Get you some," "I'm gon eat me a ton of X tonight," or "Order you whatever you want," where speakers of a different dialect might not have a reflexive at all or else might have yourself or myself instead of me or you. These are my perceptions, but I don't know of any references on the subject. Carrie Leigh Crockett Sociolinguistics, Georgetown crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:30:25 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase can, of course, come from any one of a number of sources. Everything doesn't originate from AAVE--or from any other single source. As someone state, these are just tracks or guesses about where to look. Jeutonne On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 There are 44 messages totalling 1410 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. reflexives 2. "it's all good" (8) 3. Neck Hue (2) 4. Reflexives in American dialects of English 5. The Full Monty (2) 6. origins of slang (3) 7. i.e.4 warning (4) 8. "my bad" 9. TAN: folk etymology of copasetic 10. "black talk vs. white talk" (was "origins of slang") 11. Indian giver 12. "so do me something" 13. "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) (4) 14. "stoked" (5) 15. Smell of this! 16. "race" 17. Nominations for Words of the Year (2) 18. Ast for Ask 19. sorry RE: ie4 20. Muskrat Root- poisonous plant 21. "Stoked" 22. Rumorazzi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:25:54 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: reflexives In a message dated 11/2/97 3:15:45 PM, you wrote: In response to the request for information concerning dialect differences and reflexives, I can say that I've certainly found people from my region (Memphis) and maybe from the South in general to use reflexives in more contexts and sometimes in more forms than people from other regions of this country. I myself frequently say things like "Get you some," "I'm gon eat me a ton of X tonight," or "Order you whatever you want," where speakers of a different dialect might not have a reflexive at all or else might have yourself or myself instead of me or you. These are my perceptions, but I don't know of any references on the subject. Carrie Leigh Crockett Sociolinguistics, Georgetown crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu I have noticed this too.... Michael Lane, a southerner from Arkansas, might say, "fix you some greens?" Is that what you mean? Since I am not a trained linguist, I am interested in knowing how you define a reflexive. Any short answers on that subject appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. Well, this notion of "black talk" is, in part, fostered by "black" writers. I have a book on my shelf by Geneva Smitherman called Black Talk, which argues that there is definitely a uniquely "black" way of speech. Though she doesn't have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:25:53 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Neck Hue The term in Carlisle, PA is "hooftie." It's cited in DARE. On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. The social stereotyping extends beyond schoolkids, unfortunately. An ESL teacher here was sneering at the speech of local kids just the other day, noting in particular a neighboring town called Chauncey (how do you all pronounce that name, by the way?) and adding, "Thank goodness my kids are out of school" (presumably to avoid coming "under the influence" any longer). Sadly, a linguist colleague commented that Ohio elementary school teachers should all be required to take courses in teaching ESL so they could teach Standard English as a Second Dialect to these kids. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:34:52 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Reflexives in American dialects of English Now I lay me down to sleep; I had me some supper; etc. This was the Old English way of expressing reflexivity, and still exists in some PDE dialects. On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Daniel Long wrote: I have been waiting for someone to respond to this person's question. Perhaps someone has replied off the list. This sounds like an area where regional variation is significant. Phrases like "Sit yourself down.", "I had myself some supper", is this not what she is referring to? Isn't there regional variation in these types of expressions? Certainly there is someone on the list who knows more about the subject than me. Danny Long elisa vazquez iglesias iaevi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USC.ES I am interested in finding out if there are any variations with respect to the usage of reflexives in the different dialects of English. I would appreciate it if you could give me detailed information for the dialect you speak or if you could direct me to any relevant reading you are aware of. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:46:50 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: The Full Monty Apparently, the writer of the film (or one of the head honchos), was at a roadside cafe one morning in England. He ordered a "cooked breakfast", with everything that comes along with an English cooked breakfast. The waitress asked him, "oh, the Full Monty?" This could be one of those folk origins, of course. I'll ask around and see if there is an actual, recorded interview with the writer about the title. Cheers, Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:39:11 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: origins of slang My research on vocabulary slang suggests that words and phrases often do NOT originate in any particular ethnic or social group these days and spread from there. Television, radio, and the many other ways language is communicated to a wide variety of people at once make another type of explanation more likely: its use by an icon of popular culture. I agree we are too quick to ascribe slang to AfAm origins. "It's all good" does sound new-agey to me, but no way is it pop-Buddhist. For Buddhists, all of us here confined to the wheel of birth and death are suffering in various degrees depending on our level of attachment to this illusion we call "reality". Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:54:31 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: i.e.4 warning I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will fry W95. Personally, I'm a mac person, but I thought some of you folks might like to know about this. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:09:55 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: origins of slang At 08:39 AM 11/3/97 CST, you (Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU ) wrote: "It's all good" does sound new-agey to me, but no way is it pop-Buddhist. For Buddhists, all of us here confined to the wheel of birth and death are suffering in various degrees depending on our level of attachment to this illusion we call "reality". Yes, you're right -- sukkha and all that. Maybe "it's all indifferent" would have been the phrase to label pop-Buddhist.... Sorry -- I dashed my note off within ten minutes of the note I was responding to, and in no way was I trying to sound normative: just trying to point out that (absent the evidence obtainable through heavy lifting) there were other sources at least as likely as AAVE for the phrase "it's all good".... And I absolutely agree with your other point (which I clipped out -- whoops) that a lot of these catch phrases come into wide usage via popular culture -- TV and movies etc.--, just as a century ago they'd have done so through music-hall songs or routines, or political sloganeering, etc. (Examine the clear, or hazy, origins of many items in Partridge's _Dictionary of Catch-Phrases_.) Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:03:46 EST From: Julia Cochran COCPROFS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. All historical factors being equal -- which of course they never are -- I suspect that in a society where whites had never constituted the numerical and/or power majority, many "majority" members might feel "touchy" about "white talk" as well. Not to oversimplify the matter, but it's kind of a human thang. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:48:20 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will fry W95. Sounds like cyber-era (anti-Gates) folklore. Will there be a Gatesgate? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:05:10 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: "my bad" Around 1990, my nephews (at the time they were 17/18) started using the term. They didn't play basketball, but they did watch sports on T.V., and they listened to Rap music (this is where I think they got the term, simply because they used many terms heard in the music). Maybe it is not just a "court-distributed" phrase? Jessie Emerson Jim Crotty wrote: In the hoops section of my recent book, How to Talk American, I talk about its use in street basketball. I'll bet you that white guy in the Atlanta Airport was a basketball player or coached basketball or had a son who played regular basketball. It's definitely heard quite frequently on the courts. For example, you drive down the court on a three and one. Rather than pass to one of your wide open teammates under the basket, you instead choose to shoot a three- pointer, which you miss. Everyone knows you made a bonehead play, but will cut you some slack, if in running back down court you say, "I'm sorry guys, my bad." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:18:01 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: TAN: folk etymology of copasetic Recently, there were separate discussions on this list about the nature of folk etymology and about the mysterious etymology of "copasetic". They dovetailed for me this morning while talking to a colleague, and I thought I'd share an accidental folk etymology with the list. Whether this is one model for how folk etymologies arise I would not venture to say. My friend used "copasetic," and when I mentioned that it had been the topic of conversation here, he said he'd always dimly assumed that it was the name of a laxative that had been extended to mean anything that went as smoothly as crap through a goose. I pointed out that he was confusing "copasetic" with "Kayopectate" (sp?), but he admitted that even if he had remembered the real name of the laxative, he might have thought that "copasetic" was just a variation of it. This is probably as reasonable an etymology as Partridge's joke that it comes from "cope" and "antiseptic" by way of Amerindian. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:16:07 -0500 From: Al Futrell al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: origins of slang On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote: My research on vocabulary slang suggests that words and phrases often do NOT originate in any particular ethnic or social group these days and spread from there. Television, radio, and the many other ways language is communicated to a wide variety of people at once make another type of explanation more likely: its use by an icon of popular culture. I agree we are too quick to ascribe slang to AfAm origins. Ellen: I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this -- at least slightly. No doubt the mass media makes for quicker dissemination, which in turn makes for more difficulty in tracking origins. H.L. Mencken made a claim similar to yours above except that he suggested that certain journalists were the top coiners of slang (I don't have the quotation handy, sorry). Maybe I am old fashioned -- though I am not as old as Mencken would be -- but I think much slang originates socially and not individually. That is, I think most of it comes from subcultural jargon, cant, argot, etc., that becomes popular (often thanks to music, tv, radio, internet, etc.) among large segments of the general population. The meanings, of course, quite frequently do not diffuse with the actually locutions; frequently, they change because the subcultural metaphors make no sense to the new users. But then I have had this argument before..... Al Futrell -- al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:42:27 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: "black talk vs. white talk" (was "origins of slang") How slang is distributed is another question (the first being where slang originates). Slang originates in many places, including AAVE, Southern speech (as we've seen on this list), the speech of varying immigrants through the years (as we've also seen on this list), etc., etc. "Popular" culture watches certain T.V. programs/movies and listens to certain music, "college" culture watches/listens to other types, "country" culture watches/listens to still other types, etc., etc. Thus, the distribution of slang doesn't have to be limited to "popular culture." In the "country" culture of North Alabama, you don't hear young people say "my bad" or "bust a move." You do hear it in North Alabama in other "culture" groups. It seems to me that people don't immediately think about slang coming from "white talk" because in many areas of the country Standard American English is the norm (and I suspect this is what everyone on the list is refering to as "white talk"), not because it is "white talk", but because T.V. and radio news and other non-entertainment programs have become widespread. It sounds very similar to the situation that has been going on for decades in Great Britain. I just don't think the average citizen of the U.S. is aware of it, because dialects here are not so vastly different over such relatively small areas (as they are in GB). My opinion, based on aging college notes, Jessie Emerson Greg Downing wrote: And I absolutely agree with your other point (which I clipped out -- whoops) that a lot of these catch phrases come into wide usage via popular culture -- TV and movies etc.--, just as a century ago they'd have done so through music-hall songs or routines, or political sloganeering, etc. (Examine the clear, or hazy, origins of many items in Partridge's _Dictionary of Catch-Phrases_.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:54:51 +0200 From: Jan Strunk Strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]T-ONLINE.DE Subject: Re: "it's all good" Dear listmembers, I don't know whether it is very likely, but the expression "it's all good" sounds a little bit like the German "Es ist schon gut" meaning "it's OK", "you don't have to be sorry" and "don't mention it" to me. "schon" means "already". I don't know whether it's possible to use "all" instead of "already" in English. What I do know is that "all" is used in Low Saxon to say "already". I hope this is useful. Jan Strunk strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-online.de Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: The phrase can, of course, come from any one of a number of sources. Everything doesn't originate from AAVE--or from any other single source. As someone state, these are just tracks or guesses about where to look. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:24:52 -0700 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Re: Indian giver Billy Hamilton considers the term "indian giver" derogatory and offensive to Native Americans. Because of such feelings, I quit using the term by junior high. I am wondering, however,... The phrase was in fairly common use during my grade school days, but I didn't understand it as pejoritive of Native Americans. I thought it came from the history of broken treaties and the repeated relocation of "Indians" (my elementary school days predate the common use of "Native Americans") from land that was considered worthless when "given" to them but later found to have some exploitable value. Hence, an "Indian giver" was someone who gave, but took back, someone who promised, but reneged--as the U.S. government did to the Indians. Was my perspective unusual? Did I learn too much history too soon? Or was this a valid understanding of the term as it was used 40 years ago? [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:35:36 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: "so do me something" Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used as a retort? Know anything about the origin? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:50:34 EST From: Billy Hamilton wjhami01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" I don't know about all this black talk vs. white talk stuff. I have heard this phrase mainly from white males. I have never heard it in the context of an apology though. Every time I've ever heard it, it has been in a sexual\dating context. As in: "I don't want to date her because I don't find her attractive." reply: "Oh, but man, it's all good." In my experience, this is used often by white males who are labeled, in this area at least, as "hicks" or "rednecks." Billy Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:53:30 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) At 02:13 PM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: My understanding is that race (or subspecies) is defined in terms of differential reproductive success. You have been misinformed. Specific races of plants are often used in hybridizing programs. The truth is that the term race is not very well defined (nor is species, which puts meat and potatoes on taxonomists' tables) and may be used slightly differently by different botanists or zoologists. Most commonly it is expressed geographically. A race or subspecies of some plant may be slightly different from another race growing in another isolated area, but not yet evolved far enough to constitute a different species. Brought together they are quite compatable. Inasmuch as there not different rates of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human "races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human subspecies or "race." Quite the contrary. One homogeneous species expanding out of Africa (according to this week's theory) gradually became geographically isolated and evolved into slightly different strains with identifiable genetic characteristics. Races. That is the biology of it. As a social issue the word obviously takes on other nuances. But attempts to solve a problem by simply denying it have seldom been successful. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:15:24 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: "stoked" Aloha e Listers "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his friends." These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 report of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up on Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" or "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply here, although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." Aloha N ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:00:06 -0600 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) I couldn't resist commenting on the present exchange on 'species', although I should know better than butting my nose into things I understand minimally. Duane Campbell wrote: The truth is that the term race is not very well defined (nor is species, which puts meat and potatoes on taxonomists' tables) and may be used slightly differently by different botanists or zoologists. Actually biologists define the term "species", except that there are about three definitions of it, of which I remember only two: 1) individuals claiming the same ancestry (but not necessarily sharing features--at least not the same ones among them all) may be grouped in the same species; 2) individuals sharing the same features (regardless of their ancestry) may be grouped together under the same species. Theoretically one may collapse the two criteria and be more strict about their notion of 'species'. I suppose much of this variation depends on the kind of work one is doing and what kind of classification interests them, and for what purpose. Inasmuch as there not different rates of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human "races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human subspecies or "race." Quite the contrary. One homogeneous species expanding out of Africa (according to this week's theory) gradually became geographically isolated and evolved into slightly different strains with identifiable genetic characteristics. Races. This is actually where variation within the original species, ecology, and selective success in reproduction come to work hand in hand. If there were no variation within the original species, the migrating population would either adapt to the new ecology and develop no new biological features that would distinguish it from the population left behind, or it would fail to adpt and perish. It can of course interbreed with a population belonging to a different species (related or unrelated) and they can produce descendants of a different kind, leaving it up to ecology to throw the dice and give selective advantage to some members of the new population. External ecology won't introduce new features into a population but in will work on variation within a population to favor some features/genes and produce out of it a population which may be identified as a separate species later. This situation ultimately leads to the question of whether we humans descended from some ape ancestor or whether there is a missing link and the current apes would just be our cousins. That is the biology of it. You presented one interpretation of it that dismisses the role of ecology, which has increasingly become more and more signifant in studies if evolution. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:13:50 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Smell of this! Michael Montgomerey writes: Nary a one of the citations is an imperative. "Smell of this!" (= "Smella this!") "Tastea this!" and "Feela this!" all sound very natural to me from my memories of adolescence (and maybe before) in eastern Iowa. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:17:38 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: "stoked" The only usage I know of "stoked" is fired up; e.g., the team was stoked because they won the game. That's from the late '80s/ early '90s, I suppose. Jessie Emerson Norman Roberts wrote: "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his friends." These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 report of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up on Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" or "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply here, although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." Aloha N ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:39:14 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: "stoked" Norman Roberts wrote: Aloha e Listers "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his friends." These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 report of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up on Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" or "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply here, although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." well, it's been around long enough and widely enough to get into the _american heritage_ with no regional marking--just a 'slang' label: "1. exhilarated or excited; 2. being or feeling high or intoxicated, especially from a drug". so, i'd guess (and i bet jesse has the real story) that it's come to its more general meaning from drug culture. interesting that it's so close to 'toked'. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:25:29 -0000 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning There is some truth to this, but only some. The problem seems to arise if you are running Office 97 -- MSIE4 overwrites necessary Office files, and, when uninstalled, fails to restore them... or something. I do know people who have turned off desktop integration with no problems at all. Go figure. There's an official microsoft.public.inetexplorer.ie4 usenet newsgroup that deals with all these questions. Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com Semper Ubi Sub Ubi -----Original Message----- From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 3:04 PM Subject: i.e.4 warning I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will fry W95. Personally, I'm a mac person, but I thought some of you folks might like to know about this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:37:49 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning Just a note: When installing ie4, you have the option to install it as an individual program (like ie3) or as an integrated desktop. JE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:24:00 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: "race" i haven't been paying a lot of attention to the 'race' conversation, although i should have been doing just that (as i've done a bit of writing on the subject and will likely do more before someone decides to stop me). so, i hope i don't repeat what's been said already but here are a bunch of vaguely related thoughts on the topic: 1. stephen jay gould has some very accessible arguments against racial classification on any kind of biological basis, especially in his book _the mismeasure of man_. 2. one thing that argues against the existence of biological races is the fact that there is more genetic variation within races than across them, which is to say that any member of one 'race' probably has more in common (genetically speaking) with the average characteristics of another 'race' than with any other individual in her/his own 'race'. 3. similarly, some of the things that are seen as 'markers' of 'races' are actually found only partially in some 'races' and often across 'races'. for instance, whites have prominent noses, but you could probably find some prominent nosed black africans as well. a better example: sickle cell anemia is considered to be a "negroid" disease, but the gene for it is not found in the xhosa people of south africa (nelson mandela's ethnic group) but it IS found in many mediterranean ('white') people. 4. many, if not most, anthropologists (the people who brought us 'race' as a science--or at least their precursors did) today do not believe that human races exist. cultural anthropologists, not surprisingly, are much less inclined to believe in 'race' than physical anthropologists. sorry, i don't have the exact figures, but work on anthropologists' views on race has been published in several places by reynolds and lieberman (and by one or the other alone as well--can't think of their first names either--my books and files are still not here from my move in july). back to work; thanks for the break. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:53:24 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Nominations for Words of the Year Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became popular in January 1997. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:18:39 -0600 From: Ditra Henry D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) Maybe you have the origin of the word but how it came to be used in this country has nothing to do with either of those etymologies. Ask your self what race really means and try and define it sensibly and out of the way it is being used in this country and in this century and even for the last 500 plus years. Then look for an article by Lerone Bennett called the road not taken. Not the poem itra On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle French or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me on this). And if I can remember anything from my anthropology courses, I think that in the early or mid 19th century (before anthropology became a science) that this term was used in conjunction with the division of the world's population into Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Of course, the Caucasians made up the divisions, so they got to be number one. Jessie From Ditra Henry The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar with of course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word just a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did it have other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the emotions that have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not a thing fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and integral part of this country. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:56 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) It was my point that the division into races of pre-anthropologists was, indeed, exactly how the word "race" as a "racist" term came to be used in this country (and in Britain, as well); and not just against anyone who happened to be black, but against anyone who happened not to have "caucasian" features (Native American, Jewish, Asian, etc.). This same application of "race" was one of the primary arguments of the Nazi party in Germany, as well. I don't think it is possible to separate the use of the word "race" in this country in this century from its origins in the history of anthropology. I will look for the article, thank you. Jessie Emerson Maybe you have the origin of the word but how it came to be used in this country has nothing to do with either of those etymologies. Ask your self what race really means and try and define it sensibly and out of the way it is being used in this country and in this century and even for the last 500 plus years. Then look for an article by Lerone Bennett called the road not taken. Not the poem On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle French or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me on this). And if I can remember anything from my anthropology courses, I think that in the early or mid 19th century (before anthropology became a science) that this term was used in conjunction with the division of the world's population into Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Of course, the Caucasians made up the divisions, so they got to be number one. Jessie From Ditra Henry The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar with of course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word just a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did it have other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the emotions that have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not a thing fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and integral part of this country. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:54:52 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ast for Ask Ron seemed to say that we move the apex of the tongue way back to make the [k] Ron didn't say this (at least not this Ron). I _did_ say that ASK -- AST can be explained as phonemic assimilation at the word level. Why doesn't it also happen with BASK (if it doesn't)? Well, historically, phonological processes such as assimilation, dissimilation, and methesis are by no means always regular. *****cf.: someone writes: Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k. [Ron answers]: Yes. This is a the phonologial process known as ASSIMILATION. It is why we say MARBLE instead of MARMOL (B M under the influence of the surrounding nonasal sounds--as well as under the influence of the initial M). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:27:01 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. Margaret Lee Hampton University On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Tom Head wrote: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:21:01 -0600 From: Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: "it's all good" Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the jazz era, but I have no proof. The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:35:21 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year In a message dated 11/3/97 1:53:58 PM, you wrote: Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became popular in January 1997. It's hard to argue with "azzi" (no doubt it's popularity as a negative word due to sounding like "Nazi"), but there are some strong runner-ups.... "Indie" is still hanging around, especially in relation to films (though most so-called "indie films" aren't "indie" at all), though indie magazines and music are now useless concepts. A major consolation prize should be granted to "don't go there," which was a big early 90's gay culture term that has swept the nation, and, still maintains its popularity within gay culture, despite its use by everyone from Ricki Lake and Whoopi Goldberg to those frat boys rooting for the Seminoles. That expression has some legs. There's also "it's a girl thing," and the use of "thing" in all sorts of different scenarios (a holdover from George Bush--perhaps his major contribution to American culture period), and, yes, "da bomb" (as in, "MJ is da bomb"). It's been around awhile, but keeps hanging in there. It remains to be seen whether it will have the staying power of "cool," or groooooovy" (given a huge boost by Austin Powers) or "what---EVer" (the Val girl term I've heard used by straight car salesman in Omaha and practically everywhere else in the country). Other runner-ups include a slew of Buddhist terms ("nirvana," "satori,"), "boutique" (boutique cities, boutique beers), and, believe it or not, "dude" (still strong after all these years, dude) and "kewl" (formerly "cool"). I love this topic, and hope at the end we can ascertain an ADS Top 20 (akin to the top twenty in other "sports").... But I don't want to just limit to words, but expand to influential expressions. Maybe we can also vote for Most Improved, Biggest Loser, and more. Oh, I've never received a very clear definition of a "soccer mom." Is she Republican, Democrat? Democratic Centrist? Liberal Republican? All of the above? Jim Crotty (aka Monk) How to Talk American Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:01:16 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be overlooked. Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:39:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" authentic-sounding vernacular locutions.... Nobody has a monopoly on one type of linguistic innovation or another.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:19:08 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" If we could truly be "color blind" as far as vernacular is concerned, there would not be such a big deal about "Ebonics." The fact is that as, Claerbaut so accurately noted, "Whites rarely imitate black grammar or black pronunciation except in derison." But as most of us know, black slang is liberally and readily imitated. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jim Crotty wrote: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:24:05 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu wrote: Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be overlooked. I was responding to a rather impassioned and I thought, as a general idea, perhaps well-taken protest against the occasional tendency to assume that any new slang not otherwise identifiable is AAVE. Linguistic innovation happens in lots of ways, he seemed to be implying, and I thought I agreed. I hope no-one on the list would overlook *any* kinds of contributions to linguistic innovation, but the person to whom I was responding felt that there was maybe a reflexive attitude at times about linguistic innovations and AAVE. Maybe you'd quote his post and address his points if you disagree with him; I can forward you a copy, if you like. You mentioned in your last post in this thread that, "as with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture." I think tracking the phrase to ground wherever that leads is the point of the exercise, and if you know for sure where and how it originated, post the citations and the thread will naturally close. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:45:30 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: sorry RE: ie4 Sorry to take up ads-l space with more of this this, but the internet explorer warning came from my brother, whose system did crash after removing ie4 from his W95 desktop. And he was NOT running Office, as was suggested by E Morris. He spoke with another relative (a Windows-relative, unlike my-mac-self) who told him of other, similar problems with ie4, and told him how to fix his W95 system. The upshot--it did not totally "fry" his system as i suggested earlier, but it IS about 10 hours later and he's still repairing the damage. I think Jessie Emerson's point about installing ie4 as an individual program rather than an integrated desktop is probably the sagest advice. Again, sorry for this use of the list--maybe we should backchannel further discussion about this. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:05:56 -0500 From: Blue Roses schmiad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: "stoked" I still use and still hear "stoked" whenever I go home. I'm from the Cocoa Beach area (Central Florida). To me, "stoked" means extremely happy or "fired up". "Dude, I was so stoked last night--the waves were totally awesome!" I always associated it with "coked," which came into use during the '80's. Angela Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:09:48 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "stoked" Chapman (NDAS,'86) reports "stoked" as excited or happily surprised. Munro (Slang U, '89) reports both excited and happy meanings for the term and notes it's been collected at UCLA since '83 (when it meant embarrassed). Dalzell (Flappers 2 Rappers,'97) traces it from surfing slang and says it entered mainstream youth slang to mean "excited" in the '60s. I had several students this year report the "happy" meaning in addition to the "excited" meaning. Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (909) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:52:55 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Muskrat Root- poisonous plant I was reading the story of Mary Jemison, captured by the Indians in 1755 or so, became a full member of the Senecas in Western NY. Great story if anyone wants to check it out. Each of her sons was murdered in the early 1800s, and in one case the murderer commits suicide by eating a large quantity of muskrat root. DARE tells us that it is the same as the plant sweet flag, with a Delaware cite, but sweet flag, I find is edible, used in making candy in fact. Maybe it was the quantity he ate, or maybe it was a different plant. Anybody know where to go to find out more about the alternative names of plants? Just curious, I have nothing in mind. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:10:38 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Stoked" I see that "stoked" is treated in _The Surfinary: A Dictionary of Surfing and Surfspeak_, by Trevor Cralle (Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press), l991: "stoked, adv., adj. l) excited, thrilled, jazzed--usually about the surf; chock-full of enthusiasm or satisfaction. 2) Feeling the ultimate in exhilaration; feeling high on life--can't wait to go surfing. 3) An impressed reaction to something "boss." 4) A reaction to the ultimate ride on the ultimate wave. ..." Cralle then quotes John Grissom's _Pure Stoke_ (l982) concerning the etymology of the term: "To catch a wave was (and is) to stoke the fires of the heart and soul. Hence the terms: to be stoked, the stoked life, degrees of stoke, and pure stoke." --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:14:03 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Neck Hue Beverly Flanigan asks how we pronounce "Chauncey." Well, we pronounce it just the way it is spelled -- to rhyme with "Nancy." Thomas L. Clark Department of English University of Nevada, Las Vegas Las Vegas NV 89154-5011 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu 702/895-3473 FAX 702/895-4801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:47:09 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: The Full Monty Apparently, the writer of the film (or one of the head honchos), was at a roadside cafe one morning in England. He ordered a "cooked breakfast", with everything that comes along with an English cooked breakfast. The waitress asked him, "oh, the Full Monty?" This could be one of those folk origins, of course. I'll ask around and see if there is an actual, recorded interview with the writer about the title. I thought someone had posted this before, but the phrase _the full monty_ meaning 'everything possible; the works; the whole nine yards' (and only meaning 'complete nudity' contextually in the film) is a British slang expression that's found back to (IIRC) 1986 in print. If this anecdote is true it could only suggest where the writer may have been reminded (or perhaps first heard of) the expression; it doesn't originate from there. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:51:11 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rumorazzi In a message dated 11/3/97 9:53:58 PM, AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) [deletia] There's also the rarely used "rumorazzi," for aggressive and stealthy gossip mongers in the computer publishing biz. "Be careful at Comdex, you never know when the rumorazzi may be listening." I suppose it could be applied to gossip columnists in other spheres, but I've only heard it in the computer biz. --------------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn Street Tech http://www.streettech.com/ "We have a website and we're not afraid to use it!" Email: garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net Email pager: pagegareth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]infohwy.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1997 to 4 Nov 1997 There are 19 messages totalling 512 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. alternative names of plants 2. "stoked" 3. "Stoked" 4. "stoked" etc. 5. "it's all good" (6) 6. Nominations for Words of the Year 7. "so do me something" (4) 8. "git go" 9. reflexives 10. English Language Position (fwd) 11. sorry RE: ie4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:26:16 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: alternative names of plants The largest agricultural college in each state is likely to have a school of Natural Resources. (Probably formerly a school of Forestry.) Either the associated library or someone at the school/college/department of Natural Resources should be able to recommend books giving alternate names of plants. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:40:37 -0500 From: Robert Swets bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BC.SEFLIN.ORG Subject: Re: "stoked" On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: The only usage I know of "stoked" is fired up; e.g., the team was stoked because they won the game. That's from the late '80s/ early '90s, I suppose. Hash smokers in the sixties stoked the bowl (added fuel, i.e., hashish). Stoked meant both the bowl and the smoker. ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:07:35 EST From: Monkmag Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Stoked" In a message dated 11/3/97 9:54:47 PM, you wrote: "To catch a wave was (and is) to stoke the fires of the heart and soul. Hence the terms: to be stoked, the stoked life, degrees of stoke, and pure stoke." --Gerald Cohen still, the origins might be hash-related from the 60's.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:42:15 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: "stoked" etc. My 2 cents on some recent threads: I've only heard stoked used to mean excited about something, i.e., I'm really stoked about the game/going on the trip/ whatever. I, too, only knew "Indian giver" as somebody who gave something but didn't really mean it, and later wanted it back. I must admit, though, that when I learned it as a child (sometime between 6 & 10) I wasn't sure whether it was "Indians" who did that, or somebody who did that _to_ Indians. Yes, I have heard "so do me something." I grew up in NYC in the 1950s. The sense I have is that it's like "So sue me." Rima ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:54:05 -0600 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" Margaret Lee's explanation that "it's all good" originated in hip hop is the most likely one. Certainly when I was doing fieldwork in a California high school two years ago the kids who used it were those who were into hip-hop culture. Also, "A2Z: The Book of Rap and Hip-Hop Slang" includes the expression; unfortunately, no cites are provided. A likely place to start looking is the hip-hop magazine "The Source," based in New York. Mary Bucholtz Texas A&M University bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu wrote: Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be overlooked. I was responding to a rather impassioned and I thought, as a general idea, perhaps well-taken protest against the occasional tendency to assume that any new slang not otherwise identifiable is AAVE. Linguistic innovation happens in lots of ways, he seemed to be implying, and I thought I agreed. I hope no-one on the list would overlook *any* kinds of contributions to linguistic innovation, but the person to whom I was responding felt that there was maybe a reflexive attitude at times about linguistic innovations and AAVE. Maybe you'd quote his post and address his points if you disagree with him; I can forward you a copy, if you like. You mentioned in your last post in this thread that, "as with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture." I think tracking the phrase to ground wherever that leads is the point of the exercise, and if you know for sure where and how it originated, post the citations and the thread will naturally close. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:35:32 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Oh, I've never received a very clear definition of a "soccer mom." Is she Republican, Democrat? Democratic Centrist? Liberal Republican? All of the above? Jim Crotty (aka Monk) How to Talk American Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com Here is a well developed opinion of what "soccer mom" might mean: 1997 6 Mar Dolores Curran The Georgia Bulletin 5/1-3 She Finds 'Soccer Mom' Definitions Hogwash [Title]/I was emotionally geared up to write a stinging column belittling what I perceived to be a derogatory term, "soccer mom," when truth did me in. I was surprised to discover that it was coined years ago by a Denver woman running for city council. When asked for her credentials, she proudly replied, "soccer mom," and a sound byte was born./ . . . . All yuppies are not selfish, all white males are not angry, and all soccer moms do not live for and through their children./I know. I was a soccer mom, only back then we were called little league moms, a phrase often used condescendingly. I drove kids to practice and attended some of their games, but I did not put aside my life for their sports activities, which appears to be one of the interpretations of soccer mom./Another demeaning definition is that of the at-home mother who is anything but at home because she's driving her 1.8 children to ballet, orthodontist and success. The implication is that she is so frenzied that she will vote for anyone who acknowledges her existence./A third definition depicts the soccer mom in the tired stereotype of the little woman who naively feels that she can change the world by voting for a candidate who is attractive, charismatic and seems to care about home and hearth over more significant world issues./All these definitions are hogwash. Soccer mom is simply a convenient label put on the women's vote./. . . .The joke has become reality. Those little old women in tennis shoes had little girls who became soccer moms. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:57:05 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" Beth Simon asked: | Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used | as a retort? Know anything about the origin? Yes..it sounds familiar. And when I read it, I "hear" it with a Yiddish accent, so perhaps it's a calque of a Yiddish expression. Just a guess, but...ya never know. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:10:04 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" Yes, I'm wondering whether it's a Yiddish calque, or perhaps a pseudo Yiddish calque, on the order of "to know nothing about nothing". Anyone else familiar with it? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly could've originated from the African American community here decades ago. Jessie Emerson Margaret Lee wrote: As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:50 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMIN2.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" That's not really true in the South were you have both white and black speakers using similar if not identical speech patterns (including grammar) in many instances. This is not an act of imitation however, it is part of the dialect. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis If we could truly be "color blind" as far as vernacular is concerned, there would not be such a big deal about "Ebonics." The fact is that as, Claerbaut so accurately noted, "Whites rarely imitate black grammar or black pronunciation except in derison." But as most of us know, black slang is liberally and readily imitated. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jim Crotty wrote: Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:44:22 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase, "from the git-go," which may be better known now from televised sports, wasn't used in (urban--such as it is) Iowa. It is common in Wisconsin, and I'm here to say, unknown in neIndiana . beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:07:24 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: "so do me something" | Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used | as a retort? Know anything about the origin? Yes..it sounds familiar. And when I read it, I "hear" it with a Yiddish accent, so perhaps it's a calque of a Yiddish expression. Just a guess, but...ya never know. I'm reminded of Nathan Detroit in _Guys & Dolls_ singing "Sue Me"--"Call a lawyer and sue me, sue me, what can ya do me, I love you . . ." Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:52:44 -0500 From: Linda Urschel lurschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUNTINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: "git go" Beth, I've heard this expression many times, and it is, in fact, in my own vocabulary. I live about 25 miles west of Ft. Wayne. Linda Urschel Huntington College At 10:44 AM 11/4/97 EST, you wrote: The phrase, "from the git-go," which may be better known now from televised sports, wasn't used in (urban--such as it is) Iowa. It is common in Wisconsin, and I'm here to say, unknown in neIndiana . beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:28:05 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: reflexives In connection with the below: Just a short observation, since the long answer would take a dissertation (or two): grammarians find it useful to distinguish reflexives from other anaphoric expressions on formal grounds. In English, reflexives all have the form "X-self"; other (pronominal) expressions may occur in the same syntactic frame with the same referential interpretation (i.e., as coreferential to the antecedent), but are not reflexive if they do not have the "X-self" shape. That way we can talk about whether a given speaker or a given dialect allows or requires a reflexive in a context like "I'm gonna get {me/myself} a beer" or "John complained to me about that story about {him [= John]/himself}". Briefly, reflexives and non-reflexive pronouns tend to show up in comple- mentary distribution (where you get one, you don't get the other) as markers of coreference, the distinction defined by whether the anaphor and antecedent are in the same minimal domain, e.g. within the same clause (I shaved {myself/*me}, I want you to shave {me/*myself}). But various other semantic and stylistic factors play a role as well, as the cases below (and the variation governing them) show. A recent discussion in American Speech is worth consulting: Parker et al. (1990), "Untriggered reflexive pronouns in English", Am. Sp. 65: 50-69. Hope this helps. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 11/2/97 3:15:45 PM, you wrote: In response to the request for information concerning dialect differences and reflexives, I can say that I've certainly found people from my region (Memphis) and maybe from the South in general to use reflexives in more contexts and sometimes in more forms than people from other regions of this country. I myself frequently say things like "Get you some," "I'm gon eat me a ton of X tonight," or "Order you whatever you want," where speakers of a different dialect might not have a reflexive at all or else might have yourself or myself instead of me or you. These are my perceptions, but I don't know of any references on the subject. Carrie Leigh Crockett Sociolinguistics, Georgetown crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu I have noticed this too.... Michael Lane, a southerner from Arkansas, might say, "fix you some greens?" Is that what you mean? Since I am not a trained linguist, I am interested in knowing how you define a reflexive. Any short answers on that subject appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:07:59 -0800 From: Gail Stygall stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: English Language Position (fwd) The English Department of the University of Washington is seeking applicants for a position in English Language Studies at the Assistant Professor rank. Ph.D. is required by the date of appointment; demonstrated excellence in teaching. Areas of English language study: discourse analysis, stylistics, historical linguistics, language acquisition and pedagogy. Teaching duties include the full range of English languages courses in the undergraduate curriculum, primarily to English major planning for teaching certification; graduate teaching in Language and Rhetoric track in M.A. and Ph.D. program. Letter and vita only by November 10, 1997, to Professor Shawn Wong, Chair, Department of English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330. The University of Washington is building a culturally diverse faculty and strongly encourages applications from female and minority candidates. AA/EOE. ______________________________________________________________________________ Gail Stygall stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu (206) 543-2190 Director, Expository Writing Program Editor, _CCCC Bibliography of Composition and Rhetoric_ English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330 ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:36:20 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" There is a line from the song "Sue Me" in the musical "Guys and Dolls" where Nathan Detroit sings to Adelaide: "Sue me, sue me, what can ya do me? I love you!" In the song, the Yiddish expression , "Nu?" is also used. The slang in the show is very much mixed up with New York Yiddish slang, not so much due to Ring Lardner, the author of the original Broadway gangster stories, but whoever adapted it for the stage- and I can't remember offhand who that was. MIght there be a connection to "so do me something"? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:57:52 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by pronouncing it "get-go." On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 From: Emerson, Jessie J jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly could've originated from the African American community here decades ago. Jessie Emerson Margaret Lee wrote: As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:39:30 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: sorry RE: ie4 Internet Explorer 4 is a new program. Always be wary and careful with a new computer program--no matter what brand of computer you use. Jeutonne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:40:31 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by pronouncing it "get-go." Not necessarily AAVE pronunciation. General Southern. There's even a chain of convenience stores called Git-n-Go. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1997 to 4 Nov 1997 ********************************************** 06 Nov 1997 00:00:14 -0500 eply-to: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Message-id: 0EJ700NAXKMQ8S[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACS2.BYU.EDU Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 There are 22 messages totalling 530 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry (3) 2. "so do me something" 3. /gIt/ v. /gEt/ for "from the git-go" 4. reflexives 5. /gIt/ vs. /gEt/ 6. "it's all good" (2) 7. "git-go and southernisms" 8. Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) 9. Guys and Dolls author (2) 10. RE Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) (2) 11. Copyediting query (2) 12. No subject given 13. Nominations for Words of the Year (2) 14. Bee's Knees 15. Indian giver ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:29:26 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used as a retort? Know anything about the origin? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ______________________________________________________ Nu (a Russian word meaning "well"), so I'll tell you . . . The form of the expression "So do me something" is fundamentally German; however, Hochdeutsch (High German) would never employ such expressions as "Tu mir etwas" or "Also,tu mir etwas" or "Denn, tu mir 'was," because these expressions mean "Do something TO me" and not "FOR me." The equivalent of "So, do me something" in Modern High German would be "Also, [bitte] tu etwas fuer mich [bitte]." Yiddish employs primarily German as its basis, plus a "bissel" Russian, Hebrew, and, so who knows what else? Such a Mischung! (The Yiddish word "mish," meaning "mixture" or "mix," is also derived from German.) I. too, suspect that the English is a sort of translation from some not-too kosher German? It is quite possible and plausible that Ms. Simon's inquired-about expression is indeed derived out of German and comes to English via Yiddish, as is seen in a number of responses to her inquiry. Still, we have a bunch of expressions, like "So, tell me something." "So, do me a favor?" "So, sing me a couple more verses." "So., give me a little more time." "So, how's by you?" "So, give me another helping cheesecake?" "So, you didn't like my challah?" So, Simon, say maybe I'm a schlump, but don't sue me IF my shtik is shrecklich! _______________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES Professor Emertitus Music & Latin American Studies University of Wisconsin-Madison "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 USA _______________________________ EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu _______________________________ TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150 _______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:32:53 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" from beth again: | Yes, I'm wondering whether it's a Yiddish calque, or perhaps | a pseudo Yiddish calque, on the order of "to know nothing | about nothing". ^^^^^ Please, beth, in authentic pseudo-Yiddish, this is "to know nothing FROM nothing". Believe me, I know from pseudo-Yiddish. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:20:19 +0000 From: Ashlea Allen ashlea[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIVID.NET Subject: Re: /gIt/ v. /gEt/ for "from the git-go" Not necessarily AAVE pronunciation. General Southern. There's even a chain of convenience stores called Git-n-Go. General Southern, and also South Midland (Lower North?/Upper South?) -- or at least in southern/Appalachian Ohio -- the pronunciation of get is /gIt/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:12 +0100 From: elisa vazquez iglesias iaevi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USC.ES Subject: Re: reflexives Could you say "Shall I fix yourself a sandwich?"? What about "Shall I fix himself a sandwich?"? Do you find any grammatical difference between these two sentences? Elisa Vazquez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:55:29 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Dear Sam Jones, Yes, and, no. "So do me something" is -so do something to me- -- a rhetorical challenge, on the order of "You don't like what I just said? Tough." beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:56:06 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: /gIt/ vs. /gEt/ The articulation of get with [I] is recorded in Peter Levins rhyme dictionary (1570) and by Christopher Cooper (1685). Dobson includes it in instances of early raising of Middle English e* to i* between [g] or [j] and a dental; other examples occur in together , yes , yesterday , and yeast . There are plenty of examples of /gIt/ in English dialects (see Wright and the Survey of English Dialects dictionary). Despite the antiquity of this pronunciation it still seems to be some sort of register marker when people actually spell it git as in git-go .. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:48:29 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMIN2.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" I've heard this expression all of my life. It was common to here someone say something like "You were wrong from the git-go." It was usually used to mean "from the beginning". It is probably more a product of Southern English than what people refer to as Ebonics. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by pronouncing it "get-go." On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 From: Emerson, Jessie J jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly could've originated from the African American community here decades ago. Jessie Emerson Margaret Lee wrote: As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:03:08 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago.... By odd coincidence, actually, I just heard the phrase used in real life (whatever that is...!) for the first time this morning, on the subway in Manhattan, from a young male about 20 or so (who seemed primarily of Asian not of African descent, though that says absolutely nothing about the phrase's origin of course -- I did see the generalized citation stating AAVE origin that was posted yesterday). Quite openly and at some length, he was explaining to a young woman, with vivid examples, that he and his current namorada bicker a lot etc. etc. etc., "but hey, it's all good," and then he was off like a shot onto another topic. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:18:12 -0500 From: Carol Andrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms" I grew up in Manatee County Florida just after the 2nd WW, and all our neighbors were southern whites, with roots up in Georgia and Alabama. They frequently used the term "from the git-go." Very rich speech -- they'd go up to Georgia for a family reunion and see a lot of their "shirttail folk" -- distant relatives, and an old aunt who was "older than dirt." "B.J.--you're storifying ta me agin (lying)!" We were always invited to come set a "spell on the porch." My childhood friend Sylvia attended my daughter's wedding in England last summer, and, while talking to a London woman, Sylvia said, "Oh, let's go set a spell out on the patio and chew the fat." I hurriedly explained that it meant just to "sit a while and chat." The British woman's reply was a quick classic: "Oh," she said, "I thought it had something to do with witchcraft." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:02:26 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me the origin of "What can I do ya for?" I've heard this a lot lately and it gets on my nerves. It has a rude undertone that I don't like. Where did this come from? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:29:22 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) Barry Popik has asked me to forward this message to ADS-L about the expression "garbage in, garbage out." (This is, in fact, found in RHHDAS under "GIGO"; we consider the abbreviation, but not the proverbial expression, to be slang, but our earliest is the 1964 cite from Oxford.) Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ----------------- Begin forwarded message from Barry Popik ------------ The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs has 1964. It's not in RHHDAS. I found it (with an illustration) on page 28, Aerospace Accident and Maintenance Review, May 1961. --Barry (who went to the dentist again and is now in pain, causing him to be an antidentite) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:21:46 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Guys and Dolls author I believe the author of the stories was Damon Runyon, not Ring Lardner. Runyon was, by the way, born in Manhattan -- Kansas. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:33:29 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? -------------------------------------- From: Jesse T Sheidlower Barry Popik has asked me to forward this message... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:47:06 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: RE Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? He's still subscribed to the list, but for now he has decided to stop participating actively. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:08:35 -0500 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Copyediting query Would someone be kind enough to supply me with the proper name of and subscription information for the list devoted to copy editors? I believe it's copyediting-l or some such, but I've lost all record of it. Any help= most appreciated. If there are any lists devoted to regional or other sub-dialects of American English, it would also be very useful to know about these. with best wishes, Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:14:27 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Copyediting query Would someone be kind enough to supply me with the proper name of and subscription information for the list devoted to copy editors? I believe it's copyediting-l or some such, but I've lost all record of it. Any help= most appreciated. It is copyediting-l, and it's based at Cornell. To subscribe, send E-mail to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu. In the body of your message, include only the command sub copyediting-l your name where your name is your real name (e.g., J. Q. Public), not your E-mail address. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:09:30 -0600 From: Anna C Paschal paschac[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: No subject given I'm trying to find information about the expression "the bee's knees" which is used in the same manner as "the cat's pajamas". For example, one might say "He's the bee's knees"--meaning he's the greatest, attractive, or any other positive attribute. If anyone is familiar with this expression or any variation of it, please let me know. Anna Paschal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:28:08 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? Cynthia Bernstein Auburn Univ. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Allan Metcalf wrote: Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became popular in January 1997. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 21:22:13 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell slangman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Bee's Knees Anna: In FLAPPERS 2 RAPPERS: 20th CENTURY AMRICAN YOUTH SLANG, at pages 20-22, I spend a fair amount of time with the animal expressions of the Flapper era. "Cat's pajamas" and "cat's meow" were the most popular of the dozens of animal-based slang expressions of approval of the 1920's. Ranking words or expressions by popularity is often an exercise in futility, but "bee's knees" was certainly a strong contender for third place after its cat cousins. The list was nearly endless, but by the end of the decade the construction had largely burned itself out. One still hears or reads an occasional "cat's meow" or "cat's pajamas", usually in affected advertising or headlines. Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:28:50 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Guys and Dolls author Dan, Duh! My bad. Of course Damon Runyon wrote the stories that went into "Guys and Dolls". I had just come from another listserv where Ring Lardner was being discussed, and I guess I had him on the brain. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:55:48 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Allan Metcalf wrote: Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became popular in January 1997. Maybe the Jerry Maguire phrase of the year could be reduced to simply "Show me the ________!" In Seattle during the baseball playoffs there were bumper stickers "Show me the Pennant!" (This phrase has fallen out of favor, for obvious reasons.) Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:55:50 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: Indian giver Recently there have been some queries about "Indian giver." I see that the Dear Abby column treated the expression earlier this year; my copy is from the _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Feb. 4, 1997, sec. D, p.2/1-2; title: "'Indian Giver' Definition Opens Up Culture Clash." I have no idea about the accuracy of the replies Abby received and printed; is there a specialist on Indian cultures out there who can confirm or dismiss the suggestions advanced? Here are two of the replies she printed: 1) "The term 'Indian giver' has to do with honor. Indians were great gift givers. If the person receiving the gift did something that was dishonorable or otherwise brought shame, the giver could ask for the gift to be returned. The giver did not want to be guilty by association." 2) "In the Indian culture on the East Coast, you could "borrow" a tool, use it and return it in the Golden Rule tradition. ...When the Indian would "give" an item to someone because it was praised or needed, the settlers complained when the owner wanted it back--hence the name 'Indian giver'." --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Nov 1997 to 5 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1997 to 6 Nov 1997 There are 35 messages totalling 884 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. bee's knees 2. "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry (2) 3. No subject given (2) 4. "it's all good" (2) 5. Nominations for Words of the Year (3) 6. new subject (5) 7. "my bad" 8. "cookies" (3) 9. subscription 10. "my bad" and other bounceball terminology (2) 11. RE Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) 12. Cookies (3) 13. Reflexives 14. reflexives 15. Bring Back Barry (2) 16. good travel (2) 17. "git-go and southernisms" 18. peach-orchard 19. Barry Popik ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:30:01 -0500 From: Donna Metcalf Ddonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: bee's knees College romance, 1962. I still have a silver charm bracelet of a beehive. My then boyfriend, a Richard Gere look alike from Franklin Square New York, always said "It's the bee's knees." I think it's a great expression. Now high school kids and college kids say "It's the bomb." Meaning the best! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:31:14 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me the origin of "What can I do ya for?" It has been around a long time, at least in Texas. Just a playful switching of words to get under someone's skin if it's thin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:25:59 +0300 From: derya karapinar e101149[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given Subscribe / American dialect society/Derya Karapinar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:28:49 +0300 From: derya karapinar e101149[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given Subscribe/American dialect society/Derya Karapinar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:07:49 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/5/97 7:04:57 AM, you wrote: As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago.... By odd coincidence, actually, I just heard the phrase used in real life (whatever that is...!) for the first time this morning, on the subway in Manhattan, from a young male about 20 or so (who seemed primarily of Asian not of African descent, though that says absolutely nothing about the phrase's origin of course -- I did see the generalized citation stating AAVE origin that was posted yesterday). Quite openly and at some length, he was explaining to a young woman, with vivid examples, that he and his current namorada bicker a lot etc. etc. etc., "but hey, it's all good," and then he was off like a shot onto another topic. Perhaps he's what might termed a "yo boy" or a "wigga"--a non-black person imitating the speech, mores, and gestures of black men, often black rap stars and "b-boys." As I note in How To Talk American, lots of so-called "black talk," and especially black rap talk, has migrated beyond that culture. Coo? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:19:41 -0600 From: Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM Subject: Re: "it's all good" On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Bonnie Briggs wrote: I've heard this expression all of my life. It was common to here someone say something like "You were wrong from the git-go." It was usually used to mean "from the beginning". It is probably more a product of Southern English than what people refer to as Ebonics. I've heard it all of my life as well, as a Mississippian. Then again, there is a massive mutual influence between what people refer to as Ebonics and Southern English, which has (I would imagine) increased a great deal over the past twenty years due largely to integration. Of course, as a Southerner, I'm trying to figure out how "git-go" is pronounced differently from "get-go". ;o) Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:21:15 -0600 From: Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me the origin of "What can I do ya for?" I've heard this a lot lately and it gets on my nerves. It has a rude undertone that I don't like. Where did this come from? I think it's a corruption of "What can I do for ya?", an informal business greeting. Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:39:15 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? Cynthia Bernstein Auburn Univ. Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:30:56 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: new subject Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:25:14 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: "my bad" First of all, thanks for the input. The Bob Greene column has in fact appeared, in last Monday's Chicago Tribune. A colleague writing on a different topic appends the note p.s. We read your name quoted in Bob Greene's article on 'my bad'. I think it's a good sign when linguists are quoted in the same section of the paper where Cathy vaunts her neuroses, Brenda Starr gets her man, and Ann Landers excretes advice. Unfortunately, while I was waiting for the smoking gun before calling Greene back, he put the column to press. Evidently (I haven't seen it yet, but it will eventually be posted on the archives at http://www.chicago.tribune.com/ columns/greene/archives/97/archives.htm) his conclusion coincides with the general consensus here: origin in pick-up basketball games, gradual incorpor- ation from AAVE to general youth culture through other sports contexts, helped along by that occurrence in the movie "Clueless". --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:36:02 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: new subject I've always assumed it was some sort of shortened biblical reference relating to "hellfire and brimstone." Jessie Emerson From Steve Alan Nolden Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:37:05 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: "cookies" "Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your "cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if it bothers you. Jessie Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? Cynthia Bernstein Auburn Univ. Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:53:06 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: "cookies" "Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your "cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if it bothers you. Jessie It seems to me that a better choice of terms would be "ticks" or "fleas" or even "stickers." Thanks for the information. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:19:00 -0500 From: "W. Randolph Beckford" beckford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: subscription Subscribe / American dialect society/Derya Karapinar Thanks! Randy Beckford Dickinson College Carlisle, PA ***************** "Explicit hoc totum; pro Christo da mihi potem." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:37:19 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Exactly, I mean the stuff that Web sites leave on your hard drive. Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? Cynthia Bernstein Auburn Univ. Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:39:27 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: "cookies" Netscape, too, has a cookies folder. You can set Netscape not to receive cookies. Cindy On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: "Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your "cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if it bothers you. Jessie It seems to me that a better choice of terms would be "ticks" or "fleas" or even "stickers." Thanks for the information. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:39:51 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: new subject I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then to compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My grandparents said this constantly. Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:08:33 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" dh12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" and other bounceball terminology In addition to "my bad" there are many other words and phrases used on the basketball court that weren't used when I started playing in 1945. And there are some that have been lost. Back then when someone stayed back on offense in order to get a long pass and make an easy basketball, he was called a "radioman" or "snowbird." I never hear "radioman" any more and haven't for many years, and "snowbird" isn't used much any more either. We used to play "bounceball." Now people "shoot some hoops." The phrases "pick-up" and "make it, take it" came in, I think, about the same time as "my bad." Since the sixties we have new names for positions, too--point guard, shooting guard, wings, and power forwards. And sports announcers have added accounting terms such as "triple double" Rule changes have led us to coin "three pointer," "possession arrow," "twenty-four second clock," and "lane violation." Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:02:42 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: new subject Related to "hell fire" are "shit fire" and "shoot fire" (all with with fire pronounced similar to far) in the South. -----Original Message----- From: MELISSA S. SMITH [SMTP:mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu] Sent: Thursday, 06 November, 1997 10:40 AM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: new subject I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then to compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My grandparents said this constantly. Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:22:27 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" dh12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU Subject: Re: RE Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? He's still subscribed to the list, but for now he has decided to stop participating actively. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com I miss his wit and research. I wish he would reconsider and participate actively again. Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:17:44 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cookies Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka Cookies are preference files that a website keeps on *your* computer. For instance, if you set up an account on the New York Times site, the password that you've asked them to remember is stored on your end via a cookie. If you define a series of preferences on a customizable website, all that info lives in a cookie file. Cookies have been somewhat controversial. Users were concerned in the beginning that other websites might be able to steal your cookies and learn things about your online haunts and viewing habits. After many articles and a concerted effort on the part of sites that use cookies to calm people's fears, this practice has continued (and likely increased). If you want to see how ubiquitous cookies are, there's a preference in Navigator (and I assume Explorer) that asks your permission before storing any cookies. You'll quickly become tired of hitting the "OK" button. -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:20:54 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year In a message dated 11/6/97 3:46:45 AM, maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote: Maybe the Jerry Maguire phrase of the year could be reduced to simply "Show me the ________!" In Seattle during the baseball playoffs there were bumper stickers "Show me the Pennant!" (This phrase has fallen out of favor, for obvious reasons.) Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu There was also: "Show me the RING!" on an episode of NYPD Blue. -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), _Internet Power Toolkit_(Ventana) Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:27:03 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Cookies On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Gareth Branwyn wrote: Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka Cookies are preference files that a website keeps on *your* computer. For instance, if you set up an account on the New York Times site, the password that you've asked them to remember is stored on your end via a cookie. If you define a series of preferences on a customizable website, all that info lives in a cookie file. Cookies have been somewhat controversial. Users were concerned in the beginning that other websites might be able to steal your cookies and learn things about your online haunts and viewing habits. After many articles and a concerted effort on the part of sites that use cookies to calm people's fears, this practice has continued (and likely increased). Which practice? Using cookies legitimately or "other websites stealing your cookies and learning things about your online haunts and viewing habits"? Peter McGraw If you want to see how ubiquitous cookies are, there's a preference in Navigator (and I assume Explorer) that asks your permission before storing any cookies. You'll quickly become tired of hitting the "OK" button. -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:53:07 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Cookies In a message dated 11/6/97 5:27:26 PM, you wrote: Which practice? Using cookies legitimately or "other websites stealing your cookies and learning things about your online haunts and viewing habits"? The practice of using cookies. To my knowledge, cookie handling is one way only and other sites cannot see your cookies. As I recall, there was some potential for this type of abuse in the beginning, but it was quickly addressed. -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:54:18 EST From: Monkmag Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: new subject In a message dated 11/6/97 11:24:49 AM, you wrote: I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then to compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My grandparents said this constantly. Are you all familiar with the infamous Hell Fire club in the Meat Market of NYC? Truly "out there" sexual exploration.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:51:39 EST From: Monkmag Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "my bad" and other bounceball terminology In a message dated 11/6/97 8:59:58 AM, you wrote: In addition to "my bad" there are many other words and phrases used on the basketball court that weren't used when I started playing in 1945. And there are some that have been lost. Back then when someone stayed back on offense in order to get a long pass and make an easy basketball, he was called a "radioman" or "snowbird." I never hear "radioman" any more and haven't for many years, and "snowbird" isn't used much any more either. We used to play "bounceball." Now people "shoot some hoops." The phrases "pick-up" and "make it, take it" came in, I think, about the same time as "my bad." Since the sixties we have new names for positions, too--point guard, shooting guard, wings, and power forwards. And sports announcers have added accounting terms such as "triple double" Rule changes have led us to coin "three pointer," "possession arrow," "twenty-four second clock," and "lane violation." Dick Heaberlin Of course, there are distinctions between pick-up ball, and professional or college ball. What the announcers on television or radio use is often different from what is used on the playground. And different from what even the pro and college players use amongst themselves. I cover a lot of these uniquely "pickup ball" terms in How To Talk American, and leave out most of the announcer terms. Though even there there's many new additions, as in "2 guard," as opposed to shooting guard. "Small forward" is another.... When I have more time I'll really go off on these new additions. For now, I leave it to ADS, Bill Walton and, of course, Bitin' Marv Albert. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:45:33 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Reflexives elisa vazquez iglesias iaevi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USC.ES asks: Could you say "Shall I fix yourself a sandwich?"?[1] What about "Shall I fix himself a sandwich?"?[2] Do you find any grammatical difference between these two sentences?[3] 1: NO!!!! 2: NO!!!! 3: NO!!!! They're both HORRIBLE!!!! ... except, for #2, in a usage that you're probably not thinking about, which I believe has been discussed here, in which "himself" is used with no reflexive sense to refer to the Man of the House. I think of it as having an Irish flavor, but no doubt I will be corrected by the more knowledgeable. This usage is no part of my speech, which is why it is irrelevant to my answer #2. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:31:40 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: reflexives On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, elisa vazquez iglesias wrote: Could you say "Shall I fix yourself a sandwich?"? What about "Shall I fix himself a sandwich?"? Do you find any grammatical difference between these two sentences? Elisa Vazquez I wouldn't use either sentence 1 or sentence 2. The only grammatical difference I note is the pronominal reference in the first part of the -self pronouns. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:03:48 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Bring Back Barry If Barry's not gonna play, I'm not gonna play either! Who else are we going to get to write those dialogues. . . or search through 19th century magazines for citations? Danny Long Dickie M. Heaberlin wrote: What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? He's still subscribed to the list, but for now he has decided to stop participating actively. Jesse Sheidlower I miss his wit and research. I wish he would reconsider and participate actively again. Dick Heaberlin -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:39:16 -0500 From: Kusujiro Miyoshi kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP Subject: good travel From: Kusujiro Miyoshi, kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp I'm teaching English at Junior College in Japan. Quite recently one of my students said that she heard an American lady said "have a good travel" in the sense that "spend as much time as possible for traveling." Is this common among the Americans? I myself have thought this expression just means "have a pleasant travel without any accident." Regards. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:44:15 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: good travel Kusujiro Miyoshi wrote: I'm teaching English at Junior College in Japan. Quite recently one of my students said that she heard an American lady said "have a good travel" in the sense that "spend as much time as possible for traveling." Is this common among the Americans? I myself have thought this expression just means "have a pleasant travel without any accident." i don't believe any native speaker of american english would say this. she probably said "have a good trip" or "have a good vacation" or something like that, since "travel" is not a count noun. i would interpret "good" here as meaning "pleasant", but sometimes "pleasant" means "long", when you're talking about traveling. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:36:04 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms" On "shirttail [kin]folk": "Shirt-tail relations" was the term used by my mother (b. 1906) in Minnesota. Is/was this term in common use? I'm not sure any longer (if I ever was) about the semantic restrictiveness of the term--in-laws, distant cousins, cousins of cousins, members of the families of the spouses of cousins, etc. Anybody else use it? Another query: 'Mamaw' (or mammaw) and 'papaw' (pappaw) are commonly used for grandmother and grandfather in Southeastern Ohio; but recently I heard of 'mawmaw' [m-backward C-m-backward C] and 'pawpaw' (same vowels) for great-grandmother and great-grandfather. The local newspaper had a death-memorial tribute with a picture of an elderly man and a farewell from a child: "We miss you, Pawpaw," which I interpreted as the same term I had previously heard (i.e., great-grandfather), although of course 'papaw' (grandfather) may also have been intended. Can others attest to this two-generation distinction? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:12:25 +0800 From: Russ McClay mcclay[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PROQC.COM.TW Subject: Re: Bring Back Barry If Barry's not gonna play, I'm not gonna play either! Who else are we going to get to write those dialogues. . . or search through 19th century magazines for citations? I miss Barry's input as well. Hard to believe he was taken out by a single plastic bullet. Russ Taipei ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:30:33 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: peach-orchard The latest issue of NADS (Newsletter of the American Dialect Society) includes a list of queries by DARE. One item is: "peach-orchard beau, peach-orchard crazy--The first is 'a clandestine sweetheart,' and the second is said to mean 'passionate; lascivious.' Why? Does anyone else know these phrases?" I suppose this use of peach-orchard derives from the blues song "Peach Orchard Mama." It can be found in Eric Sackheim's _The Blues Line_ (Schirmer Books), 1975, p. 78. The lyrics are of course heavy with sexual imagery. Some of them are: Peach orchard mama, you swore nobody 'd pick your fruit but me Peach orchard mama, you swore nobody 'd pick your fruit but me I found three kid men shaking down your peaches free ...I didn't want to kill you mama, but I hate to see your peach-a tree fail ...Peach orchard mama, don't turn your papa down Peach orchard mama, don't turn your papa down Because when I get mad I acts just like a clown Re the last line, in the blues "clown" evidently means "someone eager/willing to have sex." Cf. the lyrics of Alice Moore's "Three Men", _ibid._, p.63: There ain't but three men who can make a clown of me ...There ain't but three men who can really make me fall. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:21:23 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Barry Popik All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1997 to 6 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Nov 1997 to 7 Nov 1997 There are 43 messages totalling 1082 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Free-99; Ghetto 2. Barry Popik (18) 3. rule of thumb (2) 4. Bring Back Barry 5. "git-go and southernisms": mawmaw and pawpaw (2) 6. new subject (3) 7. Barry Pop (2) 8. basketball terms (3) 9. mamaw & papaw (was "git-go and southernisms) 10. "git-go and southernisms" 11. Fwd: Re: Re: good travel 12. Rima's rule of thumb (5) 13. Word of the Year 14. good travel 15. Who is Barry Popik? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:44:22 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Free-99; Ghetto Slang I heard today (dated, I'm sure): "How much is it?" "It's free." "Free? How can it be free?" "I'm telling you, it's free-99" Speaker said "free-99" was "from the ghetto." Origin, apparently, is from merchandise in stores being marked just below a whole dollar: $3.99, $49.95, etc. Is it true that pricing custom originates with shopkeepers wanting to make it difficult for clerks to overcharge and take the excess (assuming, of course, that it is difficult for folks to do the math in their heads when no items on a bill are round numbers)? Is it also, perhaps, our tendency to feel $19.99 is somehow much less than $20.00? There's a New York City usage of "ghetto" that means something like: "provincial/local/unworldly/neighborhood-dwelling/small-town-like." The young Hispanic couple I met lost in Central Park this past summer would be ghetto: After they told me they had been lost in the park for hours, I assumed they were from the outer boroughs or Jersey, but they turned out to be from Alphabet City (about 60 blocks away, a few miles at most). A piece a couple of weeks ago in the New York Times Magazine (I believe) had a Chinese-American who described himself and his friends as being very"ghetto" when they would walk 80 blocks to Gray's Papaya in order to eat 50 cent frankfurters and to avoid paying $3.00 each for the round-trip subway ride. There was also a vague subtext of "ghetto" including customs that belonged only to a certain neighborhood (in this case New York's Chinatown), such as wearing a long lock of hair in the front, and wearing very wide-legged jeans (as much as 30 inches per leg). Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:36:46 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Aye aye! --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:31:27 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: rule of thumb I don't really mean to get back to this - but I just received the following e-mail. It's one I've never heard before. (I certainly like it a whole lot better than the wife beating falacy.) Before thermometers were invented, brewers would dip a thumb or finger into the mix to find the right temperature for adding yeast. Too cold, and the yeast wouldn't grow. Too hot, and the yeast would die. This thumb in the beer is where we get the phrase "rule of thumb". Rima ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 03:05:21 -0500 From: Robert Swets bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BC.SEFLIN.ORG Subject: Re: Barry Popik On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! i ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 05:59:00 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Larry Horn wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Aye aye! --Larry Aye aye aye! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 07:20:36 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying AYE! Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:06:48 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Bring Back Barry At 10:12 AM 11/7/97 +0800, you wrote: If Barry's not gonna play, I'm not gonna play either! Who else are we going to get to write those dialogues. . . or search through 19th century magazines for citations? Have the ayes had it? If someone is collecting votes, I eye an Aye. But, as someone who has listened and talked on a lot of liter and lang lists, I understand what the gripe was: it's great to have posters who have both the substantive stuff and also some modicum of entertainment value. Some however maybe felt Barry talked too much about his personal life without it being tied in clearly to the subject at hand, and also felt that he had critical words quite often for everything that does not exhibit his own high standards for source-tracing and accuracy -- which is a leaves a lot of institutions and venues for Barry to criticize, given all the efforts required to meet those standards, and that it in not the top or even a high priority for people whose jobs are more practical (journalists, etc.). I'm sure if Barry began posting again and left enough of "himself" in the posts to sugar the content, without as many off-topic narratives or criticims of others (newspapers, libraries, magazines, etc.), those who griped would have nothing left to gripe about, and everybody could be happy, including Barry who from his posts has been through a lot this year, and yet has managed to throw himself into his usual solid work anyway. So come back Barry -- but think about the whole of the audience before you press that send button! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:18:33 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Aye. Or rather Aye! At 12:21 PM 11/6/97 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:50:38 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms": mawmaw and pawpaw On my father's side (in Texas), his maternal grandparents were "mammy" and "papa," the names by which I knew them. However, I called my paternal grandparents "mawmaw" and "pawpaw," both of whom are now deceased and thereby unknown to my children. My children know my parents as "grandma in Texas" (known to their cousins as "grandma Tootie") and "grandpa in Texas" (I don't know what the cousins call him). We have no relational term for my father's current wife. (The seating at the last wedding I attended sure was interesting.) The generational shifts have generally been a matter of convenience and accident for us. Our sense is that the names should be distinct so we know who(m) we are talking about. However, I believe that my father referred to his paternal grandfather "pawpaw," although the man died before my father was born. This pawpaw's wife remarried and was then known as "grandma Brown"--even to me. Wayne Glowka Old Enough to Be Pawpaw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:56:37 -0000 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Barry Popik AYE! AYE! AYE! and I'll raise you a Hear Hear! Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com Semper Ubi Sub Ubi -----Original Message----- At 12:21 PM 11/6/97 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:19:07 -0500 From: Carol Andrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms": mawmaw and pawpaw It's funny how words vary. Down in rural Florida where I grew up, pawpaws were papayas. Avocados were alligator pears (the rough-skinned variety). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:30:56 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: new subject And the Hell- Fire Club, aka the Mad Monks of Medmenham Abbey (founded c 1755), a group of profligates which included Francis Dashwood, The Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes. Their summer revels included orgies and obscene parodies of Catholic ritual. In a message dated 11/6/97 11:24:49 AM, you wrote: I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then to compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My grandparents said this constantly. Are you all familiar with the infamous Hell Fire club in the Meat Market of NYC? Truly "out there" sexual exploration.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:33:37 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik ayeOn Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Robert Swets wrote: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! i ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:55:55 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Pop AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Melissa S. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:11:02 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik AYE, aussi. On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Robert Ness wrote: ayeOn Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Robert Swets wrote: On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! i ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:05:36 -0500 From: mmcdaniel mmcdaniel_at_interval-miami[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERVAL-INTL.COM Subject: basketball terms Dickie M. Heaberlin said: Back then when someone stayed back on offense in order to get a long pass and make an easy basketball, he was called a "radioman" or "snowbird." I never hear "radioman" any more and haven't for many years, and "snowbird" isn't used much any more either. In the early 80s we called such players "cherry-pickers," which I always assumed was a reference to the crane device. Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:08:25 -0500 From: mmcdaniel mmcdaniel_at_interval-miami[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERVAL-INTL.COM Subject: Barry Popik Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:58:06 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: mamaw & papaw (was "git-go and southernisms) I've heard several variations, but I haven't been able to determine a widespread usage differentiation between generations. (granny, granmaw, granpaw, meemaw, pop, big mom, etc.) -----Original Message----- From: Beverly Flanigan [SMTP:FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU] Sent: Thursday, 06 November, 1997 7:36 PM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms" On "shirttail [kin]folk": "Shirt-tail relations" was the term used by my mother (b. 1906) in Minnesota. Is/was this term in common use? I'm not sure any longer (if I ever was) about the semantic restrictiveness of the term--in-laws, distant cousins, cousins of cousins, members of the families of the spouses of cousins, etc. Anybody else use it? Another query: 'Mamaw' (or mammaw) and 'papaw' (pappaw) are commonly used for grandmother and grandfather in Southeastern Ohio; but recently I heard of 'mawmaw' [m-backward C-m-backward C] and 'pawpaw' (same vowels) for great-grandmother and great-grandfather. The local newspaper had a death-memorial tribute with a picture of an elderly man and a farewell from a child: "We miss you, Pawpaw," which I interpreted as the same term I had previously heard (i.e., great-grandfather), although of course 'papaw' (grandfather) may also have been intended. Can others attest to this two-generation distinction? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:01:46 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Barry Popik From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:08:56 EST From: Monkmag Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: new subject In a message dated 11/7/97 7:31:34 AM, you wrote: And the Hell- Fire Club, aka the Mad Monks of Medmenham Abbey (founded c 1755), a group of profligates which included Francis Dashwood, The Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes. Their summer revels included orgies and obscene parodies of Catholic ritual. Gosh, I didn't we Mad Monks of Monk Magazine had such illustrious predecessors. Thankyou for the factoid. Jim Crotty aka Jim Monk Monk, The Mobile Magazine Author, How to Talk American ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:29:01 PST From: ba GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: Barry Popik Aye! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:35:46 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Aye! Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:29:20 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: basketball terms Another basketball usage that comes to me is the null-possessive, as in "Duke ball," or "Chicago ball," when the standard is "Duke's ball" or "Chicago's ball." I've heard this from basketball announcers who are otherwise speakers of "standard", but I'd guess that they've picked it up from the players. It seems to be a matter of s- deletion, which is common in AAVE. Any thoughts on this. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:44:53 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms" On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: On "shirttail [kin]folk": "Shirt-tail relations" was the term used by my mother (b. 1906) in Minnesota. Is/was this term in common use? I'm not sure any longer (if I ever was) about the semantic restrictiveness of the term--in-laws, distant cousins, cousins of cousins, members of the families of the spouses of cousins, etc. Anybody else use it? I've heard it all my life up here in the PNW. My grandparents both used it and neither was from the South (GF from Nebraska, GM from Minnesota/Iowa). It was usually reserved for anyone farther removed than 3rd cousin--i.e. pretty much as Beverly describes it above. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:29:10 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: new subject At 12:08 PM 11/7/97 EST, Monkmag wrote: In a message dated 11/7/97 7:31:34 AM, you wrote: And the Hell- Fire Club, aka the Mad Monks of Medmenham Abbey (founded c 1755), a group of profligates which included Francis Dashwood, The Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes. Their summer revels included orgies and obscene parodies of Catholic ritual. Gosh, I didn't we Mad Monks of Monk Magazine had such illustrious predecessors. Thankyou for the factoid. Jim Crotty aka Jim Monk Monk, The Mobile Magazine Author, How to Talk American For a modern dramatization of the Hell-Fire club that Bob Ness refers to, see Tony Richardson's film version of Fielding's _Joseph Andrews_ (there's nothing like it in the book, and I always thought Richardson was playing fast and loose with his picture of the 18th century until Bob pointed out to me years ago that,even if Richardson didn't get Fielding right, he definitely got the dark side of the Enlightenment right). Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:56:47 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: basketball terms Greg Pulliam writes, Another basketball usage that comes to me is the null-possessive, as in "Duke ball," or "Chicago ball," when the standard is "Duke's ball" or "Chicago's ball." I've heard this from basketball announcers who are otherwise speakers of "standard", but I'd guess that they've picked it up from the players. It seems to be a matter of s- deletion, which is common in AAVE. Any thoughts on this. I tend to doubt it. I think the same construction has been used in broad- casting football for generations, going back to the pre-TV era: Notre Dame ball on the Michigan 35 (or whatever). And I also suspect it was used in basketball before the trend to a preponderance of African-American players. In both cases, the announcers would likely not have been AAVE speakers. In any case, I don't think it's s-deletion but something more morphosyntactic: Chicago ball, maybe, but Bulls' ball, not Bull ball. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:20:09 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Re: Re: good travel --------------------- Forwarded message: Subj: Re: Re: good travel Date: 97-11-07 11:05:43 EST From: RonButters To: M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]baylor.edu Lynne writes: i don't believe any native speaker of american english would say this .["Have a good travel!"] she probably said "have a good trip" or "have a good vacation" or something like that, since "travel" is not a count noun. i would interpret "good" here as meaning "pleasant", but sometimes "pleasant" means "long", when you're talking about traveling. I agree that a native speaker would recognize this as a deviant utterance. At the same time, this sort of extension of popular phrases (cf. "Have a nice/good day!" "Have a good/nice trip!" etc.)" is commonplace. Speakers commonly create deviant expressions in an attempt to be colorful and clever. In other words, a speaker might have said this, but in doing so he or she would have assumed tht both the speaker and the hearer were aware that it was a nonce extension. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:25:38 -0500 From: REBECCA GREENHILL rxgree01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Rima's rule of thumb I hardly think the wife beating story is a fallacy! I have read in several publications that the "rule of thumb" originates from an English common law dictating the width of a strap a husband could use to discipline his wife. The husband would use his thumb as a rule to measure the width of the strap, hence the expression. I have to question the validity of the beer story as a "rule of thumb". The purpose of testing the heat has nothing to do with the thumb really. No more than testing a baby's bottle could be called the "rule of wrist". Granted, the popularity of the wife beating story doesn't mean it is true but it is more believable than the "fingering the yeast story"!!! Rebecca Greenhill On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:45:45 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: rule of thumb Interesting thought about the dough--but it certainly sounds apocryphal. In eastern Switzerland this turns into "wrist times pi." Now if we move from pi (3.14+) to pie, that gets us to the dough... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:46:30 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." I ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:47:52 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Looks like the eyes have it. No one has said, "Oy!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:02:27 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb Rebecca Greenhill wrote: I hardly think the wife beating story is a fallacy! [...] Granted, the popularity of the wife beating story doesn't mean it is true but it is more believable than the "fingering the yeast story"!!! Leaving aside the question of whether there's ever been a law saying that a man could beat his wife with a (strap, stick, etc.) as long as said implement is narrower than his thumb, there's a very good reason why it's not believable. The expression "rule of thumb" does not refer to a law or right; it means 'a rough practical method or procedure'. Any of various stories that are supposed to be the origin of this expression--including the beer-temperature story, details of which have been circulating as an E-mail virus for about a year or so--that refer to rough measurements are therefore considerably more believable than any law about wife-beating. To return now to the question of whether there's ever been a law about wife-beating-implement-thicknesses, the answer is no, but there is substanial evidence for a _belief_ that such a law existed. A well-known English jurist in the late eighteenth century once suggested that such a practice should be allowed, and several English and American court cases record a belief that there was such a law. The association of this supposed law with the phrase "rule of thumb" apparently comes from a misreading of a 1976 NOW paper; the paper referred ironically to the wife-beating practice as a rule of thumb, but did not suggest an etymological connection. Interested readers are referred to Henry Ansgar Kelly, "Rule of Thumb and the Folklaw of the Husband's Stick," _Journal of Legal Education,_ September 1994, which discusses the issue in detail. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:04:49 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb I think the wife beating story is one of those chestnuts that hangs on despite lack of evidence and despite common sense. Wife beating per se was not illegal in medieval England, at least, but nobody set ridiculous standards like this. The only regulation of wife beating, as I understand it, was that a husband could not beat his wife to the point where she lost control of her bodily functions, because that was a sign she was on the verge of death, and wife murder was, thankfully, illegal. However, I find it hard to imagine that lawyers, especially clerics, would come up with specifications for HOW someone can legally beat his wife. The other common explanation, which I find more plausible but would not attempt to prove, is that the rule of thumb was a tailor's rough measure of a yard, holding a thread or piece of cloth at thumb's length from the shoulder. At 03:25 PM 11/7/97 -0500, REBECCA GREENHILL wrote: I hardly think the wife beating story is a fallacy! I have read in several publications that the "rule of thumb" originates from an English common law dictating the width of a strap a husband could use to discipline his wife. The husband would use his thumb as a rule to measure the width of the strap, hence the expression. I have to question the validity of the beer story as a "rule of thumb". The purpose of testing the heat has nothing to do with the thumb really. No more than testing a baby's bottle could be called the "rule of wrist". Granted, the popularity of the wife beating story doesn't mean it is true but it is more believable than the "fingering the yeast story"!!! Rebecca Greenhill On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:24 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Who in the hell is Barry anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:39:43 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Would it be terribly out of place to remind list members, including recent arrivals from Morehead State, to observe the rules of netiquette? If you don't know what other members of the list do, it's generally nice to defer or to ask politely. Others may disagree, of course. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Who in the hell is Barry anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:57:59 -0500 From: Rosemary Rummler RRRummler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb In my law school class on the history of Anglo-American law, I was taught that the wife-disciplining-rod or -strap story of the origin of the phrase "rule of thumb" is not true. Sorry, but we weren't offered any alternative explanation for the phrase. Rosemary Rougon Rummler, JD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:26:32 -0800 From: Grant Smith gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Here's another "aye" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:33:30 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Word of the Year My unofficial nomination for word of the year is: SPAM: unsolicited, bulk email (there is also a verb form). Alternate sense: to bombard people with useless information. Source possibly a Monty Python skit in which the name of the product "Spam" is used a zillion times in a list of menu possibilities in a comedic reference to the main source of meat in post-WWII Britain. Having received 86 pieces of email spam in October alone, I think this word stands a chance of winning. [Mild rant follows, with possibly interesting usages and words.] I get an increase of about 30% or more spam each month, and it all comes from just three sources: two entries at InterNic for domains registered under my name, and a single posting in Usenet. I am careful about the quantity of mail I receive. The thing that scares me the most is: I'm in for even more trouble; this week I posted almost a dozen messages to Usenet. I expect the mail to literally pour in. Folks, the delete key just isn't enough any more. I receive about 300 pieces of email a day, much of it job-related, about 40% from lists. I have an incoming filter set to route mail to certain storage folders, but it doesn't catch much spam (I do not use Eudora, so I can't partake of the constantly updated spam-source filters). I save all spam received in order to show it to people (like direct marketers) who claim it is often focused and targeted at prequalified email addresses. It isn't. If it was, I wouldn't have received email for the "Earth Smart Laundry CD" or for free golf balls or a list of celebrity addresses. Sex and multi-level marketing/pyramid schemes account for more than half of the solicitations [note American usage for "schemes" which includes a negative connotation]. This is where Internet-originated words like MAIL BOMB come in handy. [mail bomb: to send a virtually endless flood of unwelcome, large email to an email address in retaliation for perceived slights]. But you can't even send back nasty messages any more: I estimate 60% of the spam has FORGED HEADERS [forged headers: usually refers to fake return/reply addresses, but could include other information that appears in an email header (if your mail server or mail client doesn't filter them out)]. The only solution is: OPT-IN direct marketing, as opposed to OPT-OUT. Opt-in means you have to ask for it, opt-out means you have to ask not to receive it. There have been some attempts to set up OPT-OUT registries, but they have all fallen flat, and some have turned out to be trojan horses (in a non-computer virus sense), in that if you listed your address as an opt-out, you would actually then start receiving more mail. Obviously, if opt-out worked (and if all those stupid "remove" messages I sent before I realized that they didn't remove me from anything but only confirmed to the sender that my account was valid and active), then we wouldn't have a problem here. I receive the Direct Marketing trade magazines, and you might be surprised how many businesses are ramping up for full-scale assault via direct email marketing, and how many of them believe it is a legitimate commercial enterprise. Buckle up. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:56:36 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Pop Re: Return of Barry Popik. "You never know the worth of water 'til the well runs dry." -Benjamin Franklin Come on, Barry. give it another try. You were always exceedingly polite to me whenever I responded to one of your posts, and I miss those posts. They're the only ones I understand around here... Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:13:43 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Barry Popik I don't disagree Larry. I think a few common courtesies are appropriate on this list. If the ADS-L were Rocky Horror Picture Show, there would have been shouts of "virgin" in response to a statement like that. Danny "the Hell" Long Larry Horn wrote: Would it be terribly out of place to remind list members, including recent arrivals from Morehead State, to observe the rules of netiquette? If you don't know what other members of the list do, it's generally nice to defer or to ask politely. Others may disagree, of course. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Who in the hell is Barry anyway. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 09:18:46 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: good travel I agree completely with what Ron and Lynne have said. Remember phrases like "Have a good one" which must have sounded strange at first but has become accepted as a set expression. Danny Long Ron Butters wrote: Lynne writes: i don't believe any native speaker of american english would say this .["Have a good travel!"] she probably said "have a good trip" or "have a good vacation" or something like that, since "travel" is not a count noun. i would interpret "good" here as meaning "pleasant", but sometimes "pleasant" means "long", when you're talking about traveling. I agree that a native speaker would recognize this as a deviant utterance. At the same time, this sort of extension of popular phrases (cf. "Have a nice/good day!" "Have a good/nice trip!" etc.)" is commonplace. Speakers commonly create deviant expressions in an attempt to be colorful and clever. In other words, a speaker might have said this, but in doing so he or she would have assumed tht both the speaker and the hearer were aware that it was a nonce extension. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:35:19 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: Who is Barry Popik? Steve Nolden wonders who Barry Popik is. The short answer is that he is a judge (about 36 years of age) in NYC's Traffic Court who in his spare time pursues his passionate hobby of word research. And that research is excellent. If Mr. Nolden would like, I'd be happy to send him at no charge a few articles containing Mr. Popik's research. Just let me know the address to mail them to. -- Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:06:03 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb At 03:25 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: I hardly think the wife beating story is a fallacy! I have read in several publications that the "rule of thumb" originates from an English common law dictating the width of a strap a husband could use to discipline his wife. The husband would use his thumb as a rule to measure the width of the strap, hence the expression. I have to question the validity of the beer story as a "rule of thumb". The purpose of testing the heat has nothing to do with the thumb really. No more than testing a baby's bottle could be called the "rule of wrist". Granted, the popularity of the wife beating story doesn't mean it is true but it is more believable than the "fingering the yeast story"!!! This is dueling folk-etymologies. I've read somewhere some analysis of the beating-stick idea, something along the lines that in no legal record or law case has anyone ever found one reference to such a rule, and how could there be a legal rule that is never recorded in any legal code or mentioned in a recorded law-case? Common law is especially long-lived and thus prone to leaving traces in records. If such a law existed, there'd be have been tons of court-cases hinging on the issue of whether a given beating was or was not inflicted with a stick of the legally allowed size. But without being an expert on this bit of lore, all I can add is that if you read the OED2 cites of "rule of thumb" (back to 1692) there's no mention of or hints at beating anywhere. There is however almost always a sense that "rule of thumb" means something inexact -- hardly the sense of the word in the "beating" account, where the "rule of thumb" refers to the exact size something can legally be. I have heard accounts that tie "rule of thumb" to sailing (measuring the needed thickness of a rope for a given task when as a sailor you have no ruler) and tailoring (using the width of the thumb to measure without a ruler or the like -- get it? *rule* of thumb.... Cf. OED2 rock n.3, meaning 1b, where "rock/rack of eye and rule of thumb" is a tailors' phrase for inexact measurement). If anyone has the *real* story and the evidence, maybe s/he'd cough it up. The stick-story seems to have the same kind of origin as "history" = "his story," which means it says a lot about our cultural interests and guilts in the later 20C, but nothing at all about the actual origin of the phrase, which is the topic at hand in real etymology. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Nov 1997 to 7 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Nov 1997 to 8 Nov 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 206 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Barry Popik (3) 2. mamaw & papaw (was "git-go and southernisms) 3. (basket)ball terms 4. basketball terms 5. Apology: Message Labeled "Re Barry Popik 6. Word of the Year 7. query (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:24:36 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Aye! beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 08:37:09 -0500 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU Subject: Re: mamaw & papaw (was "git-go and southernisms) Among Kentucky inlaws, 'mamaw' meant great-grandmother, and was pretty generally applied, but always specific to the person. One wouldnt say *grandmothers and mamaws are fond of children, for instance. One would say, Mamaw, come out on the porch, or Mamaw was feeling tired this afternoon. RK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:03:26 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: (basket)ball terms Larry writes: I don't think it's ["Duke ball" versus "Duke's ball"] s-deletion but something more morphosyntactic I agree: the source seems to me to be more logically the noun adjunct construction than the possessive--a reduction of, say, "It's the Duke ball on the forty-yard line" (I swear I've actually heard that; though I don't often listen/watch football and never basketball, one can't entirely escape the play-by-play for either one, especially the latter here at Duke). ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:34:34 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: basketball terms Greg, I doubt the player-origin of this "deletion." In fact, I suspect it is not the morphologically and/or phonologically motivated deletion of possessive {s} at all but a sports-announcer short-form for something like "the ball belongs to Duke or "Duke has the ball" (although I usually prefer to see Louisville have it). I don't have Ferguson's SAT (Sports Announcer Talk) article (fron Language in Society, I think) in front of me, but he mentions a number of these processes there; this might be among them. DInIs (jump-shot) Preston Another basketball usage that comes to me is the null-possessive, as in "Duke ball," or "Chicago ball," when the standard is "Duke's ball" or "Chicago's ball." I've heard this from basketball announcers who are otherwise speakers of "standard", but I'd guess that they've picked it up from the players. It seems to be a matter of s- deletion, which is common in AAVE. Any thoughts on this. Greg Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:39:22 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: Barry Popik Beth, I gather that you went to work as soon as you got back to Fort Wayne, after a long ADS/MMLA day. I am embarassed at not having been able to speak to you at the ADS session. Every time I tried to or looked in your direction, you seemed to be otherwise occupied. I thought you were more than kind in commenting on the three papers. It was evident that you were well prepared Thanks again for taking the trouble to send me the meeting information. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:00:37 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Apology: Message Labeled "Re Barry Popik I hope list members will excuse my fumbling in posting on ADS-L a personal message. I vote Aye on asking Barry Popik to return to the list. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:18:09 -0500 From: Donna Metcalf Ddonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Word of the Year Spam?? Whatever!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 13:53:37 -0500 From: Jay DeGrandis snapshot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACCUCOMM.NET Subject: Re: Barry Popik On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com AYE! -- J.M. De Grandis, III http://www.degrandis.com/d3/ mailto:snapshot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]accucomm.net Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds... Bob Marley - Redemption song Haul the sheet in as we ride on the wind That our forefathers harnessed before us Hear the bells ring as the tied riggin' sings It's a son of a gun of a chorus Jimmy Buffett - SOASOAS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:21:43 -0800 From: CDP TECH tech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: query I am not figuring out these instructions. Is there any way to send a query to the ADL? If so, how? Kate Freeland freelank[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]smtplink.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:35:45 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: query At 02:21 PM 11/8/97 -0800, you wrote: I am not figuring out these instructions. Is there any way to send a query to the ADL? If so, how? Kate Freeland freelank[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]smtplink.ipfw.indiana.edu You just did it. Send another post, containing the substantive query, to the same address. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Nov 1997 to 8 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 1997 to 9 Nov 1997 There are 18 messages totalling 491 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Word of the Year (2) 2. Barry Popik (3) 3. One more -arazzi? 4. one as a pronoun? (9) 5. Good English 6. Barry Popik (Kid's Slang) 7. NEW TOPIC: Slang in the Movies! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:40:57 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Word of the Year In a message dated 11/8/97 10:33:58 AM, you wrote: Spam?? Whatever!!! Both are excellent. Though I would enjoy some ADS feedback on the proper spelling of the Valley Girl "what...EVer..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 13:47:51 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Word of the Year At 09:33 AM 11/7/97 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: My unofficial nomination for word of the year is: SPAM: unsolicited, bulk email (there is also a verb form). Alternate sense: to bombard people with useless information. Source possibly a Monty Python skit in which the name of the product "Spam" is used a zillion times in a list of menu possibilities in a comedic reference to the main source of meat in post-WWII Britain. I was sort of considering this one too. It certainly is the WOTY for anyone on the net to any extent, though I'm not sure it really qualifies as making a splash with the public in general. Howzabout "tabloid"? Speaking of spam (not to start another computer discussion, but this is a really nifty tip), if you use a mail program with filters (such as Eudora), create one to intercept any message with "remove" or "removed" in the body text. Most spam contains a pro forma apology and offer to "remove" you from the list. The offer is nearly always bogus, but the word "remove" is a handy handle with which to vault the garbage into a holding mailbox (I call mine "crap") which you can then skim every week or so (in case some legit mail ended up there) and then delete en masse. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:10:29 -0500 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Or even . . . aye-aye! Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: All in favor of Barry Popik returning from self-exile, please signify by saying "aye." Aye! Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:14:15 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik Personally, I dont care what you think. As far as the phrase "in the hell" and its rocky horror picture show reference, whomever mentioned it has a problem from the git go. But, hey its all good. I think I'm gonna' go cry a river right now since I'm not included in the ADS-L elite. whatever!! On Sat, 8 Nov 1997, Daniel Long wrote: I don't disagree Larry. I think a few common courtesies are appropriate on this list. If the ADS-L were Rocky Horror Picture Show, there would have been shouts of "virgin" in response to a statement like that. Danny "the Hell" Long Larry Horn wrote: Would it be terribly out of place to remind list members, including recent arrivals from Morehead State, to observe the rules of netiquette? If you don't know what other members of the list do, it's generally nice to defer or to ask politely. Others may disagree, of course. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Who in the hell is Barry anyway. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:23:59 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Barry Popik At 07:14 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote: Personally, I dont care what you think. As far as the phrase "in the hell" and its rocky horror picture show reference, whomever mentioned it has a problem from the git go. But, hey its all good. I think I'm gonna' go cry a river right now since I'm not included in the ADS-L elite. whatever!! WhatEVer, Steve. But on unmoderated lists there is no real elite; everyone has a send button and we can only hope we all use it responsibly. As for Barry, how much groveling does he want? 50 people must have said yes, and no one no that I know of. No sulking, Barry! Life is too short!!! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:31:52 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: One more -arazzi? There was a thread a number of days back about -arazzi that I'm too lazy to search for, but in case this coinage or nonce-word using -arazzi wasn't mentioned: Randy Taraborrelli, whose unauthorized bio of Sinatra is out soon or already, is quoted as saying that Nancy Sinatra said his unauthorized and unflattering biographizing made him "one of the `type-arazzi.'" This is from Cindy Adams' gossip-column (gossip-columns seem to be where a lot of words in -arazzi show up, perhaps in some cases for their only appearances). I imagine Kitty Kelly would be the person whose picture you'd put in the margin next to that particular word were it ever to graduate to dictionary status. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:43:59 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: one as a pronoun? After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. Dale Coye The College of New Jersey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:56:52 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? (Dale F. Coye) wrote: After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. Dale Coye The College of New Jersey Like you, I don't like it and don't use it. It would be one good way for students to avoid either sexist pronoun usage or the clumsy "he or she" except that they always end up shifting from indeterminate pseudo-pronoun "one" to the masculine anyway ("When one reads J.D. Salinger, he is overcome by sadness."), and it makes them sound as if they're trying to be British. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:23:19 -0500 From: Kusujiro Miyoshi kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP Subject: Re: Good English From: Kusujiro Miyoshi (kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp) Sorry to have troubled all the list concerning the above, but the four letters kindly sent for me were quite suggestive. I feel grateful to each of the senders. Regards. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:07:04 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Alan Baragona writes that his students write: "When one reads J.D. Salinger, he is overcome by sadness." No, when one reads J.D. Salinger they are overcome by sadness. For myself, the indefinite "one" is just one more tool in the pronoun arsenal--when one needs it, it is there. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:16:07 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? At 09:07 PM 11/9/97 -0500, Ron Butters wrote: "When one reads J.D. Salinger, he is overcome by sadness." No, when one reads J.D. Salinger they are overcome by sadness. No, one is overcome by sadness when reading J.D.Salinger. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 20:26:10 -0600 From: Ted Hansen TEDH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIGGER.STCLOUDSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? How about "When reading J. D. Salinger, some are overcome by sadness." -or- "When I read J. D. Salinger, I am overcome by sadness." Ted Hansen St. Cloud State U. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:37:34 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Re: Barry Popik (Kid's Slang) Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: As for Barry, how much groveling does he want? 50 people must have said yes, and no one no that I know of. No sulking, Barry! Life is too short!!! I too had been puzzled by Mr. Popik's silence, but I have an answer for Mr. Downing and others on the list. Barry apparently had not been aware of all of the polling going on because he somehow got unsubscribed from the list. (I forwarded the messages to him. That oughta fill up his mailbox!) Here is a posting from him. Danny Long I didn't see anything! I said I wasn't posting, and I got unsubscribed without saying that! You can post this if you wish--it's from before my vacation. It comes from New York (actually, Long Island & Queens) Newsday, Part 2, 11 October 1997, B2, cols. 2-5, Planned Parenting: Kids' Slang: What's the Dealio? If your preteen says, ""Gotta bounce, Mom. Me and my dogg will be chillin' with the crew and then shopping for some mad phat gear," don't be confused. This is the latest slang, the curious but entertaining words that preadolescents and teens use to define themselves with their peers. After all, how long ago was it that you called everything cool (still acceptable, by the way) or neato (don't even try it if you don't want to see your child's eyes roll)? ("Neato" was my friend Joel Benjamin's favorite word. He became U. S. chess champion, which is way cool--ed.) Beyond being fun, slang demonstrates that your child has an excellent command of language, according to Linda Levine, an educational anthropologist and chair of teacher education at the Graduate School at Bank Street College in Manhattan. (She's NOT an ADS member, and she's being used as an expert! Didn't David K. Barnhart go to Bank Street College--NADS 29.3 Sept. 1997, pg. 27? I keep saying that 517 ADS members is too small!--ed.) "It shows kids have developed a wide range of language. As kids grow up, they learn the language of their speech community," she says. "As soon as they start to interact socially in elementary school, they pick (slang) up. It is crucial that they have a command of slang. Without it, they are less likely to get into social groups. It is one of the first things that chuildren from other countries learn when they come here so they can become socially acceptable to their peers." Skill is required, Levine says, to do what linguistic experts call code switching, or using two different languages in a sentence. Most kids use slang with their friends, but not so much with teachers and parents, so they also can turn it on and off when they want to. (box) What They're Saying A sampling of current kids' slang with a parents'-level translation: BOUNCE--to leave BUTTER--smooth (obvious, not chunky style--ed.) DA BOMB--the best DOGG--friend FRONTERS--people who never do what they say they will GEAR--clothes GIRLY GIRL--female friend HOOPTY--messed-up ride JIGGY--very nice KID--a person MAD--very MY BAD--my mistake (In Peter Vecsey's NBA basketball column in the NY Post last Friday, Philadelphia coach Larry Brown was quoted as saying his 76ers would lead the league in "my bads"--ed.) N-E-WAYZ--whatever NO DOUBT/NO DIGGITY--that's true OH, SNAP--oh, no PHAT--very nice PLAYER--a flirt, someone who has more than one romance at a time PLAYER HATER ("PLAYAHATA")--someone who is jealous PROFILIN'--conceited SHORTY--good-looking girl SPED/SPAZ--loser SON/DUN--form of address (applies to anyone) TYPE HOT--really cool WACK--stupid WHAT'S THE DEALIO?--What's going on? YOU BE ILLIN'/HUGGIN'--You are crazy. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 21:49:31 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Duane and Ted are suggesting nice alternatives to the one-plus-generic he or they dilemma, but in "real" productions we don't get the nice ones. Another structure I've been getting lately is the opposite of Ron's: "When people read J.D. Salinger, he or she is overcome by sadness"--a valiant attempt to be gender neutral, I suppose. This is extended to the possessive too: "They all apply his or her own standards." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:30:22 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? At 09:49 PM 11/9/97 -0500, you wrote: Another structure I've been getting lately is the opposite of Ron's: "When people read J.D. Salinger, he or she is overcome by sadness"--a valiant attempt to be gender neutral, I suppose. This is extended to the possessive too: "They all apply his or her own standards." I'll be the first to admit that I am not very PC (unless someone gets to it before me), but ... uh ... what is wrong with "They all apply their own standards"? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:04:19 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Duane, there's nothing at all wrong with "They all apply their own standards." The issue in my example was the lack of agreement between the singular "his or her" and an antecedent "they." I have no problem (in spoken usage) with the contemporary singular "everyone" followed by plural "they/their"; the example I cited earlier starts with generic "they" (perfectly fine) and then inexplicably switches to singular when your own "their" would be logical and problem-free. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 22:38:15 -0600 From: Ted Hansen TEDH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIGGER.STCLOUDSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I believe the latest Merriam-Webster _Collegiate_ labels the _they_ usage with a singular indef. pronoun as "standard." Also, some handbooks suggest avoiding controversy by putting everything into the plural (though this does not always work, I think). Ted Hansen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:51:15 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: NEW TOPIC: Slang in the Movies! ear Thomas: After I returned from my tour for How To Talk American, doing the equivalent of a vernacular stand-up routine in ten different cities, I had one overriding observation: slang comes to life for people through movies. If it's in the movies, it's easy to remember. It sticks in the ole "Gulliver." For instance, all my Fargo stuff was received real well. To wit--what would you folks say are the five or ten greatest American slang movies of recent years? Fargo, Clueless come to mind. Any others? I'm trying to put together a list, which I will post on monk.com. I need great American slang movies and key terms/expressions which came from each. Yours in the slanguistic dharma, Jim Crotty Author, How To Talk American monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 1997 to 9 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1997 to 10 Nov 1997 There are 35 messages totalling 823 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. one as a pronoun? (12) 2. stoked (3) 3. No subject given 4. Word of the Year 5. pawpaw(s) (2) 6. basketball terms: cherry-picker 7. query 8. Ping of Death (2) 9. NEW TOPIC: Slang in the Movies! (2) 10. mangoes=peppers (4) 11. Folk Etymology: "intensive" (2) 12. mangoes=peppers -Reply 13. Pronouns (full text) 14. PRONOUNS 15. Pronouns (Or: Un-Pro Nouns) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 00:59:54 -0500 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I hate the pronoun "one" myself, and I often discourage my students from using it. I will use it from time to time, but almost always in a hyperformal tone where I'm trying to be sardonic or ironic, and I'm usually told to take a tonic. Used seriously, it's just not right. Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 01:02:44 -0500 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I've seen this in handbooks, myself, but I often warn my students that if one were to use this construction, one might catch some flak. On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Ted Hansen wrote: I believe the latest Merriam-Webster _Collegiate_ labels the _they_ usage with a singular indef. pronoun as "standard." Also, some handbooks suggest avoiding controversy by putting everything into the plural (though this does not always work, I think). Ted Hansen Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 07:23:08 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? In a message dated 11/9/97 5:13:14 PM, you wrote: After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. I distinctly remember "one" being used by the English in England. I started using it after I returned from my Junior Year Abroad at the University of Sussex. So maybe we should make it a condition upon reentry that one cannot use "one" if "one" expects to be received as a normal, freethinking, relentlessly informal American. All those who fail the "one" test at customs will be remanded to the San Fernando Valley for reindoctrination. Jim Crotty How To Talk American monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:13:48 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Re: stoked I've noticed that most of the responses about hearing "stoked" come from surfing communities. Somebody from Florida, the original from Hawaii, and I know I heard it in LA. Stoked means excited or fired up or, (a good Scots term) chuffed. I know AHD doesn't list it as regional, but does anybody know of it being found anywhere inland? It may be in mainstream language, but is it in non-coastal language? Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:52:43 +0300 From: mehmet saglam e072282[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given SUBSCRIBE/AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY MEHMET SAGLAM ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:05:21 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMIN2.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: Word of the Year SPAM is good and everything you say is very true. But my pick is the Ping of Death. Didn't think the Internet could be so morbid, did you? At first, this appears to be a joke or the product of what many of like to refer to as the "wire-head" culture. However, it is very real and can shut down someone's network very quickly. Pinging has been around for a while. That's where you send a Ping command to a server to see if it is working. This is usually done when people are trying to access a site and keep getting error messages. The Ping of Death sends a huge amount of bytes, more than a server could possibly handle, thereby shutting it down. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis My unofficial nomination for word of the year is: SPAM: unsolicited, bulk email (there is also a verb form). Alternate sense: to bombard people with useless information. Source possibly a Monty Python skit in which the name of the product "Spam" is used a zillion times in a list of menu possibilities in a comedic reference to the main source of meat in post-WWII Britain. Having received 86 pieces of email spam in October alone, I think this word stands a chance of winning. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:16:04 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: pawpaw(s) Carol Andrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM writes: It's funny how words vary. Down in rural Florida where I grew up, pawpaws were papayas. Avocados were alligator pears (the rough-skinned variety). Aye. I* remember learning a song in which either the chorus or every verse ended "way down yonder in the paw-paw patch". Not that I lived around there. I grew up in the suburbs of NYC (Westchester) and then the city itself, in the fifties & sixties, but I was exposed to a lot of folk music and irrevocably infected. -- Mark A. Mandel 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s folkie 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s filker * No relation to a hearty "Aye, aye" for Barry's return. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:18:40 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I'm teaching in a junior college at the moment--my English students are not all cream of the crop. Because there is such a variety of pronoun usage, I make them use "one" just so we can have a standard in class. Jessie Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:46:21 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: stoked Aaron Drews, aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK wrote about "stoked" I know AHD doesn't list it as regional, but does anybody know of it being found anywhere inland? It may be in mainstream language, but is it in non-coastal language? It's definitely part of my own vocabulary, and I've lived in (inland) Texas most of my life. I'm 39, but I associate the term with people 5-10 years younger than I am. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:44:36 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: basketball terms: cherry-picker mmcdaniel mmcdaniel_at_interval-miami[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERVAL-INTL.COM wrote: Dickie M. Heaberlin said: Back then when someone stayed back on offense in order to get a long pass and make an easy basketball, he was called a "radioman" or "snowbird." [...] In the early 80s we called such players "cherry-pickers," which I always assumed was a reference to the crane device. "Cherry-picking" is used as a synonym of "skimming" in the sense of "selecting the 'cream of the crop' [same metaphor as "skimming"!] in some group and leaving the less desirable ones". For instance, HMOs and insurance companies will make special efforts to recruit young, healthy customers who can actuarily be counted on to deliver healthy premiums while staying healthy themselves and therefore requiring little payout. This practice leaves the old and sick without affordable insurance. I'd say that a ballplayer who stays back to pick off the easy shots instead of supporting his teammates in the hard work is doing the same kind of thing. How did any of this come to be called "cherry-picking"? Presumably those who harvest cherries or any other fruit pick only the ripe ones (_pace_ fruit picked green to ripen in transit! The most desirable ones, then!). Alternatively or in addition, the crane-like machine that raises a worker in a "bucket" to reach high branches (or high wires over roads) lets the worker bypass the lower fruit, which perhaps gets less sunlight and isn't yet ripe. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:53:49 -0600 From: William J Stone W-Stone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I was surprised that no-one suggested: When you read J. D. Salinger, you are overcome by sadness. Although it may be considered too non-standard for many here, it is increasingly acceptable in Britain. The use of "one" marks you as being emphatically middle class and above (both in speech and writing) and is to be avoided if you don't want to sound snotty. When I was at university in Britain, the very few who used "one" as a pronoun were held up to ridicule. Maybe Jim Crotty's friends at the University of Sussex were from a narrow and elevated social group. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:58:00 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: query Kate Freeland asked: I am not figuring out these instructions. Is there any way to send a query to the ADL? If so, how? and Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU answered You just did it. Send another post, containing the substantive query, to the same address. True, for the American Dialect Society list. However, if Kate really DOES want the ADL (Anti-Defamation League) she's in the wrong place entirely... Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:43:13 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: stoked At 01:13 PM 11/10/97 +0000, Aaron Drews wrote: I know AHD doesn't list it as regional, but does anybody know of it being found anywhere inland? It may be in mainstream language, but is it in non-coastal language? Aaron In 1994 I collected it at Iowa State . . . and Ames, Iowa is pretty far inland. Noticably absent from the college vocabulary there were terms for surfing . . . but stoke "To excite. italic I'm stoked to go to the concert. /italic " was present. Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (909) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:52:12 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? In a message dated 11/10/97 8:51:19 AM, you wrote: I was surprised that no-one suggested: When you read J. D. Salinger, you are overcome by sadness. Although it may be considered too non-standard for many here, it is increasingly acceptable in Britain. The use of "one" marks you as being emphatically middle class and above (both in speech and writing) and is to be avoided if you don't want to sound snotty. When I was at university in Britain, the very few who used "one" as a pronoun were held up to ridicule. Maybe Jim Crotty's friends at the University of Sussex were from a narrow and elevated social group. Actually, the Sussex kids were largely spoiled radical chic who tended to hang out at the campus pub debating the merits of anarcho-syndicalism. Narrow? Yes. Elevated? Probably in their own minds. The few friends of my age at Sussex probably didn't use "one" much. Some of my older, more fuddy-duddy acquaintances probably did. However, I've heard it used by all sorts of Brits from all sorts of backgrounds coming over to "the States." Maybe it's a kneejerk reflex when Brits encounter the informal American tongue. I've also heard it a lot on BBC broadcasts. Maybe just another example of a snob (sans nobilite) trying to emulate nobility? Jim Crotty How To Talk American...yup monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:22:31 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ping of Death SPAM is good and everything you say is very true. But my pick is the Ping of Death. Didn't think the Internet could be so morbid, did you? At first, this appears to be a joke or the product of what many of like to refer to as the "wire-head" culture. However, it is very real and can shut down someone's network very quickly. Pinging has been around for a while. That's where you send a Ping command to a server to see if it is working. This is usually done when people are trying to access a site and keep getting error messages. The Ping of Death sends a huge amount of bytes, more than a server could possibly handle, thereby shutting it down. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis This is technically referred to as ping flooding. There is a long tradition of "death" slang in the computer world. "Blue Screen of Death" (or DSOD) is another popular term right now. That's the blue screen you get in Windows when some fatal error is being announced. In Macs, there's the Chime of Death (or Doom), which is the little tune that plays when your computer has experienced a serious hardware crash. In hackerdom, there's "eat flaming death," an exaggerated expression of hostility often used in computer games. A "dead link," is a WWW link that no longer connects to another page. And one of my all-time favorites: "wave a dead chicken," which is to perform a number of ritualistic procedures in the vain hope of reviving ailing or broken hardware or software. Years ago, I had a computer whose hard drive was very sick and often wouldn't show up on the monitor when I started the machine. I found myself putting my hand on the CPU every time I started it, hoping, I guess, to comfort and encourage it. This is waving a dead chicken. -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Senior editor, bOING bOING Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:54:59 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Slang in the Movies! Jim, how do you define slang? As a Minnesotan, I found nothing in "Fargo" which suggested a distinctive slang (except, perhaps, "you bet"). Aren't you talking about dialect--both accent and, to a lesser degree, lexicon? Come to think of it, "you bet" has been used as long as I can remember (and that's a _long_ time), which suggests it's not slang, i.e., it's not ephemeral, age-graded, etc. The same goes for "real well," "pretty good," etc. These are indeed part of the regional vernacular, i.e., dialect. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:57:38 -0500 From: LISA DAWN BURRISS ldburr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: pawpaw(s) I am from Eastern Kentucky and we say pawpaws. Lisa Dawn Burriss ldburr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu (606)796-3557 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:13:30 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Jim Crotty ends a message with... acquaintances probably did. However, I've heard it used by all sorts of Brits from all sorts of backgrounds coming over to "the States." Maybe it's a kneejerk reflex when Brits encounter the informal American tongue. I've also heard it a lot on BBC broadcasts. Maybe just another example of a snob (sans nobilite) trying to emulate nobility? ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ --incidentally, one more stock folk-etymology, pseudo-acronym dept. (That's the department with shelves stocking e.g. "posh" and "fuck", although it might be objected that those are REAL pseudo-acronyms, while "snob" s.nob. for "sans nobilite'" or Lat. "sine nobilitate" is more of a pseudo quasi-acronym, or vice versa.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:10:56 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: mangoes=peppers Just a quick question till I can check my sources--what is the extent of mango as the term for sweet green peppers? I just encountered it for the first time today and it is apparently quite common in central Illinois (of course I've been here over 20 years and never heard it). Dennis Dennis Baron, Acting Head italic phone: /italic 217-333-2390 Department of English italic fax: /italic 217-333-4321 University of Illinois italic email: /italic debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:41:57 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" dh12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU Subject: Folk Etymology: "intensive" One of my graduate English majors wrote "for all intensive purposes." Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:40:12 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Folk Etymology: "intensive" Yes, the "all intensive purposes" has been around for some time. It's never clear whether such mishearing-based folk etymologies are re-invented anew over and over or are learned that way--in other words, whether the invention is at the level of parole or of langue. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:00:07 -0500 From: Linda Urschel lurschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUNTINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers This usage is very common in my area--North Central Indiana. I've seen "mangoes" listed as an ingredient in pizza restaurants. My grocery store often advertises "home grown mangoes" in the late summer. Needless to say, this usage confuses my college students from other areas. I'm interested to learn that you hear this in Illinois as I've never heard it outside my own area. Linda Urschel Huntington College lurschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huntcol.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:06:24 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: NEW TOPIC: Slang in the Movies! In a message dated 11/10/97 12:24:55 PM, you wrote: Jim, how do you define slang? As a Minnesotan, I found nothing in "Fargo" which suggested a distinctive slang (except, perhaps, "you bet"). Aren't you talking about dialect--both accent and, to a lesser degree, lexicon? Come to think of it, "you bet" has been used as long as I can remember (and that's a _long_ time), which suggests it's not slang, i.e., it's not ephemeral, age-graded, etc. The same goes for "real well," "pretty good," etc. These are indeed part of the regional vernacular, i.e., dialect. Yah, you betcha there.... See, I was talkin' slang in a very broad sense. So, okay, dialect would be okay too then. The whole kit and kaboodle. Slang, dialect, vernacular, idioms, what have you and whatnot. Okay then. Jim Crotty How To Talk American monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:10:07 -0600 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMU.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers Gee, I haven't heard that in years. It was common in rural northwestern Indiana twenty years ago. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. Mary Mary Bucholtz Assistant Professor of Linguistics and Discourse Studies Department of English Texas A&M University College Station, TX 77843-4227 bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu phone: (409) 862-3910 fax: (409) 862-2292 Just a quick question till I can check my sources--what is the extent of mango as the term for sweet green peppers? I just encountered it for the first time today and it is apparently quite common in central Illinois (of course I've been here over 20 years and never heard it). Dennis Dennis Baron, Acting Head italic phone: /italic 217-333-2390 Department of English italic fax: /italic 217-333-4321 University of Illinois italic email: /italic debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:02:51 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. Dale Coye The College of New Jersey "One" is probably on the borderline between formal and frozen [Remember the five clocks?], but it's all we have for third person singular humans unless you are into using "they" or "you." I believe the NCTE guidelines for nonsexist language recommend using the plural. Actually there's nothing wrong with "one" as long as it's not overused. Beginning writers, however, tend to overuse it as they learn how to use it. But hey, if you're in the business of reading student papers, you have to get used to a lot of stuff you don't like. It is the teacher's lot to be pleased only rarely. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:22:18 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Let's include the use of _everyone_ as a student plural, usually followed by _their_. A colleague of mine just gave me this nifty sentence: If everyone comes to the department meeting, there won't be enough chairs for him. PR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:26:56 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Howzabout: People who read JDS are overcome by sadness. Or is this solution just too simple to be relevant to the present discussion? Personally, I like the "they" answer someone sent a few hours ago, because it fits Salinger so well. In fact, maybe "A guy sure gets sad reading JDS" might be a contender... PR ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:31:31 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers DARE has a nice map for this, labelled "chiefly W Midland." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:36:39 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Re: Ping of Death Is "waving a dead chicken" derived from the Jewish ritual of kapparot? Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:04:44 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers -Reply I've run into the same usage, of mango for "green pepper," in the Toledo area, in NW Ohio. In my wife's hometown, Perrysburg, there is a little ma 'n pa pizza place that offers a mango topping. Really puzzled me when I first visited her family there thirty years ago shortly after returning from four years in West Africa. Herb Stahlke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:46:04 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Someone wrote Actually there's nothing wrong with "one" as long as it's not overused. I disagree. Even once is too much. What's wrong with it is it puts lots of readers off because it sounds stiff or snooty or whatever you want to call it. Not everybody, but lots. It's as though someone were saying VAHZ for vase. Besides its not needed- there's usually lots of alternatives. On further investigation, my students tell me their high school students insisted that they not use "we" as in "we can see from the the poet's use of aliteration..." and they recommend "one" instead. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:40:06 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Pronouns (full text) Date: Mon, Nov 10, 1997 10:38 PM EDT From: RonButters Subj: Re: Re: one as a pronoun? To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu PR writes the following nifty example: If everyone comes to the department meeting, there won't be enough chairs for him. And please do not forget George Jochnowitz's wonderful title (from an AMERICAN SPEECH article a number of years back), "Everbody Likes Pizza, Doesn't He or She?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:41:23 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: PRONOUNS PR writes the following nifty example: If everyone comes to the department meeting, there won't be enough chairs for him. And please do not forget George Jochnowitz's wonderful title (from an AMERICAN SPEECH article a number of years back), "Everbody Likes Pizza, Doesn't ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:45:34 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? PR writes the following nifty example: If everyone comes to the department meeting, there won't be enough chairs for him. And please do not forget George Jochnowitz's wonderful title (from an AMERICAN SPEECH article a number of years back), "Everbody Likes PizzA, DOESN'T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 21:46:06 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Pronouns (Or: Un-Pro Nouns) I'm agnostic.... As Fats Waller (I think) put it: One never knows, do one? Actually, I usually tell students to stick to plural if possible, rather than messing with things that feel plural to people but are syntactically singular ("everyone," etc.) -- which also avoids the generic-masculine issue. The usages, they are a changin.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1997 to 10 Nov 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Nov 1997 to 11 Nov 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 267 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. computers and dead chickens 2. Ping of Death (2) 3. mangoes=peppers 4. one as a pronoun? (3) 5. add to your book (2) 6. pawpaw(s) 7. Tres sophisticated non-smoking female sought ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:27:48 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: computers and dead chickens Usenet2 (an attempt to set up Usenet groups without the usual problems) requires that headers of posts have some bits which aren't needed for Usenet 1. This is sometimes referred to as "adding the dead chicken". Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:09:09 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ping of Death In a message dated 11/10/97 12:19:55 PM, you wrote: And one of my all-time favorites: "wave a dead chicken," which is to perform a number of ritualistic procedures in the vain hope of reviving ailing or broken hardware or software. Years ago, I had a computer whose hard drive was very sick and often wouldn't show up on the monitor when I started the machine. I found myself putting my hand on the CPU every time I started it, hoping, I guess, to comfort and encourage it. This is waving a dead chicken. In How To Talk American I define "wave a dead chicken" this way: "to perform a useless and irrelevant repair on a severely damaged computer to prove to the customer you at least tried to fix it." Gareth, have you noticed this expression used in this context? James Marshall Crotty Author, How To Talk American (Houghton Mifflin) Co-author, The USA Phrasebook (Lonely Planet), Mad Monks On the Road (Simon and Schuster), Monk's Guide to California (Simon and Schuster) Publisher-Editor, Monk: The Mobile Magazine, Monk.com (the soon-to-be-famous web site) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 03:25:56 -0500 From: Rosemary Rummler RRRummler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers In a message dated 97-11-10 15:52:37 EST, Dennis Baron wrote: Just a quick question till I can check my sources--what is the extent of mango as the term for sweet green peppers? I just encountered it for the first time today and it is apparently quite common in central Illinois (of course I've been here over 20 years and never heard it). It was used on the west side of Columbus, Ohio, around 1971. In fact, if one referred to green peppers as green peppers instead of mangoes, one was not understood. Rosemary Rougon Rummler, JD ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 07:32:52 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? "One" as indefinite is not foreign, or at least not recent. It's been around since late ME (see Chaucer's The Miller's Tale:" The carpenter out of his slumber sterte/ And herde oon crien 'water!' as he were wood" [1A.3816-7]). "One replaced the OE indefinite "man" (still used in german), as in "man stearf" (someone died). The French indefinite probably had something to do with this change. One need not like it though. On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Norman Roberts wrote: After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. Dale Coye The College of New Jersey "One" is probably on the borderline between formal and frozen [Remember the five clocks?], but it's all we have for third person singular humans unless you are into using "they" or "you." I believe the NCTE guidelines for nonsexist language recommend using the plural. Actually there's nothing wrong with "one" as long as it's not overused. Beginning writers, however, tend to overuse it as they learn how to use it. But hey, if you're in the business of reading student papers, you have to get used to a lot of stuff you don't like. It is the teacher's lot to be pleased only rarely. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:52:11 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Robert Ness writes, "One" as indefinite is not foreign, or at least not recent. It's been around since late ME (see Chaucer's The Miller's Tale:" The carpenter out of his slumber sterte/ And herde oon crien 'water!' as he were wood" [1A.3816-7]). "One replaced the OE indefinite "man" (still used in german), as in "man stearf" (someone died). The French indefinite probably had something to do with this change. One need not like it though. Actually, this example from Chaucer involves 'one' in the sense of 'some (specific but unspecified) person', not in the modern sense of 'anyone'. In fact the OED distinguishes this stressed 'one', largely archaic (e.g. 'This month one went by land to Connecticut, and returned safe'--Winthrop, 1649, to choose a citation geographically appropriate for the present writer) from the 'any one of everybody, including the speaker' sense, unstressed, of the current (formal) language. The latter first appears in 1477: 'He herde a man say that one was surer in keping his tunge, than in moche speaking, for in moche langage one may lightly erre'--Earl Rivers. [Are you listening, Marv Albert?] Interestingly, the OED goes on to observe that for referring back to a 'one' antecedent, both 'him/his/himself' and 'one/one's/oneself' are possibilities, while "The pl. prons. THEIR, THEM, THEMSELVES, were formerly in general use on account of their indefiniteness of gender, but this is now considered ungrammatical." Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:09:07 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? I mislike it too. But "one" and "they" as indefinites are old enough, at least late ME: "The carpenter out of his slumber sterte,/And herde oon crien "water!' as he were wood" (the Miller's Tale, I (A) 3116-7). Old English regularly used "man" as an indefinite, as in "man stearf" (Someone died). On Sun, 9 Nov 1997, Alan Baragona wrote: (Dale F. Coye) wrote: After reading 72 freshmen papers I find myself facing: "One finds many points in common..." in nearly every one. I hate this construction. I especially hate it when it's reflexive: "when one asks oneself what one's position is..." Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage tells us it is 'usually the mark of a formal style,' but I find myself wanting to tell my students not to use it ever, because it sounds stiff and unnatural. In other words, my Sprachgefuehl tells me people don't use it in informal speech, and formal speech that deviates too much from informal speech doesn't set well. My question is- what's the current feeling on this construction, in writing and in speech? I know some people use it in conversational styles, but is it only PhDs? It sounds foreign to me. German, 'man,' French 'on,' but not English. Dale Coye The College of New Jersey Like you, I don't like it and don't use it. It would be one good way for students to avoid either sexist pronoun usage or the clumsy "he or she" except that they always end up shifting from indeterminate pseudo-pronoun "one" to the masculine anyway ("When one reads J.D. Salinger, he is overcome by sadness."), and it makes them sound as if they're trying to be British. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:57:26 -0800 From: Robert Claire rclaire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SINEWAVE.COM Subject: add to your book My e-mail address is rclaire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sinewave.com, and my telephone number is 510-420-0578. Don't be shy about using them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:27:04 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ping of Death In a message dated 11/11/97 8:09:43 AM, Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: In How To Talk American I define "wave a dead chicken" this way: "to perform a useless and irrelevant repair on a severely damaged computer to prove to the customer you at least tried to fix it." Gareth, have you noticed this expression used in this context? Yes, it can be used in any situation where you're reduced to voodoo, either in an attempt to repair a broken computer, or to satisfy yourself or someone else that the computer is, in fact, broken. I think the _Hacker's Dictionary_ basically uses the definition you've given above, but it doesn't have to be just to satisfy a customer and boss. I hear it used all the time in referring to one's own hopeless attempts at fixing a damaged or broken machine. -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Senior editor, bOING bOING Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 19:30:11 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: pawpaw(s) Yes, we have pawpaws in SE Ohio too, and they make a delicious shake. But I was really asking about grandparents and great-grandparents! On the mango/green pepper puzzlement, see D. Bergdahl's article in _American Speech_, vol. 71, no. 3. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 14:43:16 -0500 From: Charles & Mary Boewe boewes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Re: add to your book I can't imagine why I would want to On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:57:26 -0800 Robert Claire rclaire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SINEWAVE.COM writes: My e-mail address is rclaire[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sinewave.com, and my telephone number is 510-420-0578. Don't be shy about using them! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:10:42 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Tres sophisticated non-smoking female sought ... ... for the other half of my Grand Hyatt room Jan. 8, 9, and 10. The room will be $99 for 2 persons, unless I get the business rate I have requested, which will up it a few $$ and provide breakfast, etc. at no additional cost. Bethany ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Nov 1997 to 11 Nov 1997 ************************************************ 9. Wednesday with a [d] (4) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 23:19:57 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb This is dueling folk-etymologies. Yep. OK, I'll put in my two cents. But without being an expert on this bit of lore, all I can add is that if you read the OED2 cites of "rule of thumb" (back to 1692) there's no mention of or hints at beating anywhere. There is however almost always a sense that "rule of thumb" means something inexact -- hardly the sense of the word in the "beating" account, where the "rule of thumb" refers to the exact size something can legally be. I have heard accounts that tie "rule of thumb" to sailing (measuring the needed thickness of a rope for a given task when as a sailor you have no ruler) and tailoring (using the width of the thumb to measure without a ruler or the like -- get it? *rule* of thumb.... Cf. OED2 rock n.3, meaning 1b, where "rock/rack of eye and rule of thumb" is a tailors' phrase for inexact measurement). If anyone has the *real* story and the evidence, maybe s/he'd cough it up. I've always assumed, and have heard so from others, that the rule of thumb refers to the use of the last joint of the thumb to be an approximation of an inch. It's not too mucn of a stretch to imagine a taylor or seamstress measuring the distance from the tip of the thumb or index finger to a spot that would be an inch from the tip and then using that spot in making "rule of thumb" measurements. My mother used a spot about so far past the first crease in the index finger on her left hand. And it's not too much of a stretch to see sailors (or pirates) using the thickness of the thumb or the length of the first joint to determine whether a rope would be strong enough for certain tasks. To me, assuming that the origin of the thumb-term has something to do with beating one's wife is like assuming that "Have a nice travel" is the origin of "have a nice trip." As for the latter, I can imagine someone hearing another say 'I'm going to travel next week" and responding with "Have a nice travel," even though it isn't the usual idiomatic expression. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 00:38:24 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb At 11:19 PM 11/11/97 -0600, you (Donald Lance) wrote: I've always assumed, and have heard so from others, that the rule of thumb refers to the use of the last joint of the thumb to be an approximation of an inch. It's not too mucn of a stretch to imagine a taylor or seamstress measuring the distance from the tip of the thumb or index finger to a spot that would be an inch from the tip and then using that spot in making "rule of thumb" measurements. My mother used a spot about so far past the first crease in the index finger on her left hand. And it's not too much of a stretch to see sailors (or pirates) using the thickness of the thumb or the length of the first joint to determine whether a rope would be strong enough for certain tasks. Well, I guess it seems as if it would be likely to be something like this (though other sources talk about the distance from thumb to thumb with arms stretched out to each side from the shoulders etc.). But there's always the problem o them consarn cites and/or other ancillary or suggestive evidence. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:08:52 +0200 From: Liudmila Kostiukevich lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? As a foriegner (Russian-speaker) I can only add that the form is rather popular with us as it allows us to follow the patterns of our language. In Russian you can build sentences without subject in Passive. L.Kostiukevich ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 23:39:46 +0300 From: Aziz Djuraev aziz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ABD.FREENET.UZ Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Liudmila Vy otkuda? Aziz aziz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abd.freenet.uz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:38:15 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Barry Popik on: John Q. Public (Barry sends me this message with explicit permission to post on ADS-L. Happy to do so, even though it suggests that a certain book is less than perfect. - Allan Metcalf) AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (David K. Barnhart & Allan A. Metcalf) contains many important Americanisms, but it's missing "John Q. Public." "John Q. Public" was discussed here about a year ago when I found a variant of that and "Jesus H. Christ" in "Judas Q. Priest." Ever since President John Q. Adams, "Q" became a popular middle initial--especially for comic fictional characters. The new RHHDAS H-O has "John Q. Public" from 1937. This is one of several similar sports articles and comes from the New York Evening Mail, 10 August 1922, pg. 12, col. 3: JOHN Q. PUBLIC TELLS VIEWS ON THE GIANTS ----------------------------------- Fans get Chance to Have Their Say--Scott Reveals Secret of "Reborn" Arm. By Lorry A. Jacobs OFTEN HAVE we thought that Mr. John Q. Public, who patronizes the baseball games, makes sport popular and remunerative and is the real sufferer by reason of disaster to the sport he patronizes, does not get enough opportunity to say what he will of his opinions on subjects appertaining to his favorite sport. Therefore, much after the manner of the inquiring reporter, we approached five baseball fans yesterday and made inquiry as to their opinions of the Giants. (...) And that's that. Considering the answers, it at once is apparent that Mr. John Q. Public thinks a bit. (...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:47:52 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Shameless Spam for the Possible Benefit of a Student Our English department is suddenly facing the possibility of an unfilled graduate assistantship in winter quarter. Graduate assistants receive full remission of tuition (whether in-state or out-of-state) and a nominal stipend of $1100 per quarter. (The students do have to pay some additional fees, however.) Assistants normally work 15-20 hours per week. The current assistant helps composition students in the computer lab, does one-on-one tutoring, and sometimes does an odd assortment of tasks in the department office. The duties could be subject to change and could include some editorial work for a journal. To qualify, the student must have regular admission status in our M.A. program (bachelor's degree from an accredited institution, 3.0 GPA [on 4.0 scale] for all undergraduate work, 550 on the GRE verbal or 55 on the MAT, and an undergraduate major in English). Our program is very small, and we can afford to give students a lot of individual attention. Students interested in working with the manuscripts of Flannery O'Connor would find Milledgeville a Mecca. (We also have a lot of alphabetized new words lying around in boxes.) Interested students should get in touch with me by any means available--immediately. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Coordinator of Graduate Studies in English Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-445-4222 FAX: 912-445-5961 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:31:24 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: linguistic anthropology Does anyone have an email address for a list that focuses on linguistic anthropology? If so, would you contact me please? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:45:07 -0500 From: Katherine Freeland FreeLanK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SMTPLINK.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: taboo words I am doing a research project on the word "fuck" and its use as a discourse marker. Possibly a discussion on how it "means" differently across cultures. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:01:40 +0200 From: Liudmila Kostiukevich lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: taboo words This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. Send mail to mime[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]docserver.cac.washington.edu for more info. --0-653579818-879354100=:6367 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Katherine, Here is a file I've found on one of Russian servers. Perhaps you will find it useful Best regards, L.Kostiukevich On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Katherine Freeland wrote: I am doing a research project on the word "fuck" and its use as a discourse marker. Possibly a discussion on how it "means" differently across cultures. --0-653579818-879354100=:6367 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=KOI8-R; name=FUCKED Content-Transfer-Encoding: BASE64 Content-ID: Pine.BSF.3.95q.971112190140.6367D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usm.md Content-Description: DQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg2sTExMTExMTExMS/DQog ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgsyBGVUNLIFlPVSCzDQogICAg ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgwMTExMTExMTExMTZDQoNCiAgICAg IFBlcmhhcHMgb25lIG9mIHRoZSBtb3N0IGludGVyZXN0aW5nIGFuZCBjb2xv cmZ1bCB3b3JkcyBpbiB0aGUNCiAgIEVuZ2xpc2ggbGFuZ3VhZ2UgaXMgdGhl IHdvcmQgIkZ1Y2siLiBJdCBpcyB0aGUgb25lIG1hZ2ljYWwgd29yZCwNCiAg IHdpY2gsIGp1c3QgYnkgaXRzIHNvdW5kLCBjYW4gZGVzY3JpYmUgcGFpbiwg cGxlYXN1cmUsIGxvdmUsIGhhdGUuIEluDQogICBsYW5ndWFnZSAiRnVjayIg ZmFsbHMgaW50byBtYW55IGdyYW1tYXRpY2FsIGNhdGlnb3JpZXMuIEl0IGNh biBiZQ0KICAgdXNlZCBhcyBhIHZlcmIsIGJvdGggdHJhbnNpdGl2ZSAoSmhv biBmdWNrZWQgTWFyeSkgYW5kIGludHJhbnNpdGl2ZQ0KICAgKE1hcnkgd2Fz IGZ1Y2tlZCBieSBKaG9uKS4gSXQgY2FuIGJlIGFuIGFjdGl2ZSB2ZXJiIChK aG9uIHJlYWxseQ0KICAgZ2l2ZXMgYSBmdWNrKSBvciBhIHBhc3NpdmUgdmVy YiAoTWFyeSByZWFsbHkgZG9lc24ndCBnaXZlIGEgZnVjayk7IG9yDQogICBh biBhZHZlcmIgKE1hcnkgaXMgZnVja2luZyBpbnRlcmVzdGVkIGluIEpob24p LCBhbmQgYXMgYSBub3VuIChNYXJ5DQogICBpcyBhIHRlcnJpZmljIGZ1Y2sp LiBJdCBjYW4gYmUgdXNlZCBhcyBhIGFkdmVyYjogKE1hcnkgaXMgZnVja2lu Zw0KICAgYmVhdXRpZnVsKS4gQXMgeW91IGNhbiBzZWUsIHRoZXJlIGFyZSB2 ZXJ5IGZldyB3b3JkcyB3aXRoIHRoZQ0KICAgdmVyc2F0aWxpdHkgb2YgIkZ1 Y2siLg0KDQogICAgICBCZXNpZGVzIGl0cyBzZXh1YWwgY29ubm90YXRpb25z LCB0aGlzIGluY3JlZGlibGUgd29yZCBjYW4gYmUNCiAgIHVzZWQgdG8gZGVz Y3JpYmUgbWFueSBzaXR1YXRpb25zOg0KDQogIEdyZWV0aW5ncy4uLi4uLi4u Li4uLiJIb3cgdGhlIGZ1Y2sgYXJlIHlvdT8iDQogIEZyYXVkLi4uLi4uLi4u Li4uLi4uLiJJIGdvdCBmdWNrZWQgYnkgdGhlIGNhciBkZWFsZXIuIg0KICBE aXNtYXkuLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4iT2gsIGZ1Y2sgaXQhIg0KICBUcm91Ymxl Li4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4iV2VsbCwgSSBndWVzcyBJJ20gZnVja2VkIG5vdy4i DQogIEFnZ3Jlc3Npb24uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4iRnVjayB5b3UhIg0KICBEaXNn dXN0Li4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uIkZ1Y2sgbWUiDQogIENvbmZ1c2lvbi4uLi4u Li4uLi4uLi4iV2hhdCB0aGUgZnVjayINCiAgRGlmZmljdWx0eS4uLi4uLi4u Li4uLiJJIGRvbid0IGFuZGVyc3RhbmQgdGhpcyBmdWNraW5nIGJ1c2luZXNz LiINCiAgRGVzcGFpci4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLiJGdWNrZWQgYWdhaW4iDQog IEluY29tcGV0ZW5jZS4uLi4uLi4uLi4iSGUgZnVja3MgdXAgZXZlcnl0aGlu ZyINCiAgRGlzcGxlYXN1cmUuLi4uLi4uLi4uLiJXaGF0IHRoZSBmdWNrIGlz IGdvaW5nIG9uIGhlcmUiDQogIExvc3QuLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4iV2hl cmUgdGhlIGZ1Y2sgYXJlIHdlPyINCiAgRGlzYmVsaWVmLi4uLi4uLi4uLi4u LiJVbmZ1Y2tpbmcgYmVsaWV2YWJsZS4iDQogIFJldGFsaWF0aW9uLi4uLi4u Li4uLi4iVXAgeW91ciBmdWNraW5nIGFzcy4iDQoNCiAgSXQgY2FuIGJlIHVz ZWQgaW4gYW4gYW5hdG9taWNhbCBkZXNjcmlwdGlvbiAtIEhlJ3MgYSBmdWNr aW5nIGFzc2hvbGUNCiAgSXQgY2FuIGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gdGVsbCB0aW1lIC0g SXQncyBmaXZlIGZ1Y2tpbmcgdGhpcnR5DQogIEl0IGNhbiBiZSB1c2VkIGlu IGJ1c2luZXNzIC0gSG93ICBkaWQgSSB3aW5kIHVwIHdpdGggdGhpcyBmdWNr aW5nIGpvYj8NCiAgSXQgY2FuIGJlIG1hdGVybmFsIC0gYXMgaW4gIk1vdGhl cmZ1Y2tlciINCiAgSXQgY2FuIGJlIHBvbGl0aWNhbCAtIEZ1Y2sgVGlwIE8n TmVpbA0KDQogICAgIEFuZCBuZXZlciBmb3JnZXQgR2VuZXJhbCBDdXN0ZXIn cyBsYXN0IHdvcmRzOiAiV2hlcmUgZGlkIGFsbCB0aG9zZQ0KICBmdWNraW5n IEluZGlhbnMgY29tZSBmcm9tID8iICBBbHNvLCB0aGUgZmFtb3VzIGxhc3Qg d29yZHMgb2YgdGhlIE1heW9yDQogIG9mIEhpcm9zaGltYTogIldoYXQgdGhl IGZ1Y2sgd2FzIHRoYXQgPyIgIEFuZCwgbGFzdCBidXQgbm90IGxlYXN0LCB0 aGUNCiAgaW1tb3J0YWwgd29yZHMgb2YgdGhlIENhcHRhaW4gb2YgdGhlIFRp dGFuaWMsIHdobyBzYWlkICJXaGVyZSBpcyBhbGwNCiAgdGhpcyBmdWNraW5n IHdhdGVyIGNvbWluZyBmcm9tID8iDQoNCiAgICAgVGhlIG1pbmQgZmFpcmx5 IGJvZ2dsZXMgYXQgdGhlIG1hbnkgY3JlYXRpdmUgdXNlcyBvZiB0aGUgd29y ZCEgSG93DQogIGNhbiBhbnlvbmUgYmUgb2ZmZW5kZWQgd2hlbiB5b3Ugc2F5 IGZ1Y2sgPyAgVXNlIGl0IGZyZXF1ZW50bHkgaW4geW91cg0KICBkYWlseSBz cGVlY2g6IEl0IHdpbGwgYWRkIHRvIHlvdXIgcHJlc3RpZ2UuDQoNCiAgVG9k YXkhIFNheSB0byBzb21lb25lDQogICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAg ICAgIEZ1Y2sgeW91IQ0KIC0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0t LS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0NCg0K --0-653579818-879354100=:6367-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:31:36 +0200 From: Liudmila Kostiukevich lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: taboo words To make the file readable I can only send it in open form. Sorry for the words, but.., you know. So the two very ... files in this message. FUCK - Our most versatile word. By it's stress and intonation it can describe many emotions and no other word can be used in such varied categories. It can be used as a noun (I don't give a fuck) as an adjective (It's a fucking beauty) and as a verb in it's transactive form (The game was fucked up by the weather) and intransitive (He well and truly fucked it up) as well as in its normal form (I fucked her good and hard). Everyday expressions show it's true versatility: Perplexity - I'll do it my fucking self Denial - I know fuck all about it Apathy - Who gives a fuck Admission - I fucking did it Greeting - How the fuck are you Fraud - I got well fucked over that deal Resignation - Oh fuck it Difficulty - That's fucked it Disdain - Fuck off Bewilderment - Who can fucking understand that? Derision - He fucks everything up Dismissal - Up your fucking arse Challenge - Who do you think you fucking are? Command - Do it your fucking self Query - Who the fuck did that? The word has of course, been used by some very famous personages, the mos= t notable being: Full steam ahead and fuck the icebergs Captain of the Titanic What a place to plant a fucking tree Marc Bolan / Bucks Fizz That's not a fucking real gun John Lennon The fucking throttles stuck Donald Campbell Who's going to fucking know President Nixon Who let the fucking woman drive Space shuttle captain We need a new fucking stand anyway Chairman Bradford City I'm fucking dreading our gas bill Hitler This isn't my fucking room Mrs. Tebbit Jesus? Who the fuck is he? Bishop of Durham Of course I can fucking fly Buddy Holly I said I could smell fucking petrol Nikki Lauda What the fuck was that! Mayor of Hirosima She's just a fucking secretary Cecil Parkinson I'm outside the fucking exclusion zone Captain of Belgrano Look at the fucking Indians General Custer You'll never get away with that fucker Lord Lucan's Nanny Is that fucking boat safe? Lord Mountbatten Who'd fucking shoot me? John F Kennedy Wait 'till they hear this fucker Guy Fawkes That's another good cloak fucked Sir Walter Raleigh It'll be all fucking over by Xmas Arthur Scargill It is my best fucking coat Michael foot Watch him, He'll have some fuckers eye out King Harold Who the fuck left the doors open? Captain, Herald of free Enterprise Who's nicked my fucking bike? Norman Tebbit No fucker uses proper English these days Prince of Wales. =DA=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=BF =B3 FUCK YOU =B3 =C0=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=C4=D9 Perhaps one of the most interesting and colorful words in the English language is the word "Fuck". It is the one magical word, which, just by its sound, can describe pain, pleasure, love, hate. In language "Fuck" falls into many grammatical catigories. It can be used as a verb, both transitive (Jhon fucked Mary) and intransitive Mary was fucked by Jhon). It can be an active verb (Jhon really gives a fuck) or a passive verb (Mary really doesn't give a fuck); or an adverb (Mary is fucking interested in Jhon), and as a noun (Mary is a terrific fuck). It can be used as a adverb: (Mary is fucking beautiful). As you can see, there are very few words with the versatility of "Fuck". Besides its sexual connotations, this incredible word can be used to describe many situations: Greetings............"How the fuck are you?" Fraud................"I got fucked by the car dealer." Dismay..............."Oh, fuck it!" Trouble.............."Well, I guess I'm fucked now." Aggression............"Fuck you!" Disgust..............."Fuck me" Confusion............."What the fuck" Difficulty............"I don't anderstand this fucking business." Despair..............."Fucked again" Incompetence.........."He fucks up everything" Displeasure..........."What the fuck is going on here" Lost.................."Where the fuck are we?" Disbelief............."Unfucking believable." Retaliation..........."Up your fucking ass." It can be used in an anatomical description - He's a fucking asshole It can be used to tell time - It's five fucking thirty It can be used in business - How did I wind up with this fucking job? It can be maternal - as in "Motherfucker" It can be political - Fuck Tip O'Neil And never forget General Custer's last words: "Where did all those fucking Indians come from ?" Also, the famous last words of the Mayor of Hiroshima: "What the fuck was that ?" And, last but not least, the immortal words of the Captain of the Titanic, who said "Where is all this fucking water coming from ?" The mind fairly boggles at the many creative uses of the word! How can anyone be offended when you say fuck ? Use it frequently in your daily speech: It will add to your prestige. Today! Say to someone Fuck you! L.Kostiukevich ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:25:03 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Re: linguistic anthropology How about a website? Linganth Listserv Home Page http://www.beta-tech.com/linganth/ There are links to other language lists and pages on our Center's website: http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/jlrc/link-e.htm simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Does anyone have an email address for a list that focuses on linguistic anthropology? If so, would you contact me please? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:11:35 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: pawpaw(s) Beverly Flanigan wrote: On the mango/green pepper puzzlement, see D. Bergdahl's article in _American Speech_, vol. 71, no. 3. -- Thanks for the plug! _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: TTh 9-10 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:33:52 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: need contact info for Valerie Fridland Hi folks -- I need contact info for Valerie Fridland, esp. her email. I'm NOT signed on to the list at the moment -- so PLEASE reply to me personally at ppatrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu AND/OR to Carrie Crockett at crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu (I'm inquiring on behalf of Carrie.) Thanks! --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:57:52 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Wednesday with a [d] Does anyone know if the "d" in "Wednesday" is routinely pronounced anywhere in the English speaking world? Thanks, -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:56:16 -0800 From: Matthew James Gordon gordonm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU Subject: stay and live Since moving to the Chicago area (NW Indiana), I have noticed a usage that was previously unfamilar to me. The use of "stay" as opposed to "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) I wonder if anyone has discussed the distribution of this form or has observed it elsewhere. The couple of times I have noted this it has been from African American speakers, but I suppose it might be regional as well or instead. Can anyone provide some information? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:20:47 -0700 From: bruce dwight bolinging bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: Wednesday with a [d] On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, David A. Johns wrote: Does anyone know if the "d" in "Wednesday" is routinely pronounced anywhere in the English speaking world? Thanks, -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 The ordinary pronunciation of Wednesday in Ireland (both in the Republic and in Ulster) retains the [d] as an unreleased consonant, followed by a vocalic [n]: Ulster [wEdnzde], Republic [wEdnzdi]. Bruce D. Boling University of New Mexico bboling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 17:20:57 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live Matthew James Gordon wrote: Since moving to the Chicago area (NW Indiana), I have noticed a usage that was previously unfamilar to me. The use of "stay" as opposed to "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) I wonder if anyone has discussed the distribution of this form or has observed it elsewhere. The couple of times I have noted this it has been from African American speakers, but I suppose it might be regional as well or instead. Can anyone provide some information? Thanks. this was something i had to learn when i moved to south africa, so i'd never noticed it when i lived in illinois, so i'm guessing it's either chicago-specific, aave-specific, or just odd. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:28:27 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Rima's rule of thumb Extension, as in Don Lance's example, is typical in language learner speech. My mother, whose first language was Norwegian, heard the word "travel" in school but also knew the Norwegian cognate meaning "walk." So, when asked by the teacher one day how she got to school, my mother answered, "I travelled." Needless to say, everyone laughed (but her). The story became a family classic. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:31:15 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Stupid question dept. O.K. So I was driving to work this morning listening to a lute piece on the classical station. When the piece was done, the announcer said something about the musician, who was described as a lutenist. (I am guessing at the spelling.) The word was repeated for all of us who had never heard it before, so I am sure it is correct. My stupid question is: if a flute player is a floutist, why isn't a lute player a loutist? Just wondering. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 19:36:04 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Wednesday with a [d] David, Yes, around Louisville in the 40's and 50's we always pronouned the "d." We said /wInzdi/. I never heard anybody say /wInzi/. Yuk-yuk-yuk. Well, you have to be in a good mood when the snow flies in Michigan. DInIS (dreaming-of-them-cotton-fields-at-home) Preston Does anyone know if the "d" in "Wednesday" is routinely pronounced anywhere in the English speaking world? Thanks, -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:03:34 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: stay and live At 05:20 PM 11/12/97 +0000, you wrote: this was something i had to learn when i moved to south africa, so i'd never noticed it when i lived in illinois, so i'm guessing it's either chicago-specific, aave-specific, or just odd. "Stay" for "live" is normal among both blacks and whites here in South Georgia. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:06:32 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: Wednesday with a [d] At 04:20 PM 11/12/97 -0700, you wrote: The ordinary pronunciation of Wednesday in Ireland (both in the Republic and in Ulster) retains the [d] as an unreleased consonant, followed by a vocalic [n]: Ulster [wEdnzde], Republic [wEdnzdi]. Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. The friend who pronounces the first [d] grew up in West Virginia, but her father is from Ulster and her mother from Scotland. David Johns ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:24:23 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: St. Lewis Donald Lance is lecturing soon on the pronunciation and meaning of "Missouri." Here's a small grouping on "St. Louis.". --------------------------------------------------- Was something official passed in 1918? This is from the Milwaukee Journal, 19 April 1918, pg. 16, col. 3: "ST. LEWIS" St. Louis, through its Chamber of Commerce, has decided how its own name should be pronounced. It should, according to this edict of "self-determination," be broadly anglicized and called "St. Lewis." "St. Louis" is officially tabooed. There is good sense in this grave decree. English-speaking peoples anglicize the names of important cities in foreign countries, and there is no reason why they should retain foreign pronunciations for cities of their own. No one with good sense calls Paris "Paree." We say "Rome" instead of "Roma," "Vienna" instead of "Wien," "Naples" instead of "Napoli," "The Hague" instead of "Den Haag," "Brussels" instead of "Bruxzelles," "Copenhagen" instead of "Kjobenhavn." Charity of this kind surely should begin at home. "St. Louis" is, indeed, no more than conscious or unconscious affectation. "St. Lewis" is the right way, in English, to pronounce the name of an American city spelt "S-a-i-n-t L-o-u-i-s."--Cleveland Plain Dealer. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Cartoon by Ed Hughes in the New York Evening Mail, 31 August 1922, Pg. 12, cols. 3-7. The headline is: "They'll Call It St. Lose Next--by Ed Hughes." In the righthand corner is "The R. R. stations have made the change out St. Louis." A railroad station is shown, with the location listed as "St. Blooie." To the left of this, a giant N. Y. Giant is kicking a child's house of cards (the losing St. Louis Cardinals). In the upper righthand corner, "The Yanks" cooks up "St. Blooie Hash," which is "Browned in the Pan!" (St. Louis Browns). ---------------------------------------------------------------- This--before both of the above--is from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, "Answers to Queries," 11 February 1917, pg. 2, col. 6: F. B. J.--Pronunciation of St. Louis has not been fixed by law. Western people say Saint Loois; Eastern, Saint Loo-ee; Frenchmen, San Loo-ee; Germans could say St. Ludwig. "Saint Looey" was the pronunciation used in the Masque of St. Louis, the symbolic afterpiece of the Pageant in Forest Park, May 23-31, 1914. Percy MacKaye, writer of the Masque, said the name of St. Louis would be shouted by many voices in the latter part of the Masque, as the nations of the world, and the other cities of America, hailed the knightly figure representing this city. These shouts should sound over the hillside in the largest possible volume and for that prupose he decided that it would not do to have an "s" sound on the end of the word. Although the poet-dramatist did not mention it, a precedent for his choice of the "Looey" pronunciation was set by the writer of a popular song of World's Fair days. The song was entitled, "Meet Me in St. Louis, Louis," and a footnote instructed the singer that "Louis" should in both cases be pronounced "Looey." Judy Garland still won't meet me--Saint Looey, Mizzourah, wherever it is. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:27:34 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sweatshops David Barnhart and Allan Metcalf's AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (1997) use the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS citation and list "sweatshop" for 1892. This is from the National Police Gazette, 31 October 1846, pg. 60, col. 2: POLICY AND "SWEAT" SHOPS.--We call the attention of the members of the grand jury, who will be summoned next week to attend the November term of the Sessions of this city, to the "Sweat" shops in Courtland street, near Broadway, recently opened by policy dealers, who have left their swindling business through our expositions, and also to the operations of James T. Bache's policy shop, under Howard's Hotel, two doors from Maiden Lane. The gentlemen who called upon us relative to their clerks who have dealt with Bache, will find the necessary papers ready on Monday morning. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:47:10 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Gender Dear Folks: I am writing a case study on the effect of gender stereotype and subconscious perception on tutorial sessions in the Writing Center. This topic pertains to sociolinguistics because the tutorial session is an interactive speech event. Perceptions related to gender -- whether or not the be demeaning -- seem to be extremely salient. I would appreciate any information backing up my hypothesis or in opposition to it. Warm regards, Dave Pass ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:24:51 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Re: stay and live David A. Johns wrote: this was something i had to learn when i moved to south africa, so i'd never noticed it when i lived in illinois, so i'm guessing it's either chicago-specific, aave-specific, or just odd. "Stay" for "live" is normal among both blacks and whites here in South Georgia. In West Tennessee, "stay" was perfectly normal for blacks, but it was marked (even stereotyped) as such. Very unusual in white speech. Danny Long -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:48:43 -0700 From: Johanna Wood joh.wood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live So far we have: N.W.Indiana, S. Georgia, W. Tennessee, African American English and South Africa. Add to that Lowland Scots. Stay for live was the norm when I lived in the Glasgow area. I'm not sure whether it is used in all areas of Scotland. Could there be some connection between where it is found in the US and Scotch/Irish immigration to those areas? Johanna. Johanna L. Wood Department of English Arizona State University Tempe, Arizona 85287-0302 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Nov 1997 to 12 Nov 1997 ************************************************ 9. The full Monty My husband, born in South Africa and raised there and in Zimbabwe, uses "stay" in the way you describe. I noticed the usage frequently when we visited his family earlier this summer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:03:14 +0200 From: Liudmila Kostiukevich lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: Stupid question dept. The spelling of the word can be both: lutenist and (more often) lutanist. L.Kostiukevich On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: O.K. So I was driving to work this morning listening to a lute piece on the classical station. When the piece was done, the announcer said something about the musician, who was described as a lutenist. (I am guessing at the spelling.) The word was repeated for all of us who had never heard it before, so I am sure it is correct. My stupid question is: if a flute player is a floutist, why isn't a lute player a loutist? Just wondering. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 02:16:40 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Stupid question dept. If a flute player is a floutist, why isn't a lute player a loutist? Just wondering. Peggy Smith I imagine some are louts; many are certainly highly strung, too tightly wound, and gutless. Flautist (not attested in English before 1860) is from Ital. flauto, flutist (attested in English by early 17th cent.) is from French. I imagine classical music folks prefer flautist since it's more recherche (not related by simple English morphology to "flute" -- i.e., through addition of -ist) and thus has "elitist" appeal. From my music days, I recall people saying they preferred flutist, and thought flautist a bit affected. Lutenist (OED prefers lutanist actually, for reasons apparent after this parenthesis closes) is from medieval Latin lutanista (lute in med. Lat. is "lutana"). Lutist is from lute, which is from French lut(e). Language as usual reflects the complicated contingencies of cultural history in toto, and thus isn't neat. But where's the US issue here? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:37:37 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Stupid question dept. I would like to thank the many scholars who corrected my uneven spelling, and Greg Downing, in particular, who actually did the research and presented a reasonable explanation for the word differences. Thank you, Greg. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:38:01 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Re: Wednesday with a [d] On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, David A. Johns wrote: }At 04:20 PM 11/12/97 -0700, you wrote: } } The ordinary pronunciation of Wednesday in Ireland (both in }the } Republic and in Ulster) retains the [d] as an unreleased consonant, } followed by a vocalic [n]: Ulster [wEdnzde], Republic [wEdnzdi]. } }Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. The friend who }pronounces the first [d] grew up in West Virginia, but her father is }from Ulster and her mother from Scotland. The [d] is also pronounced here in Scotland, so she probably heard it from both of her parents. Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:42:45 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Re: stay and live On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Johanna Wood wrote: }So far we have: N.W.Indiana, S. Georgia, W. Tennessee, African American }English and South Africa. Add to that Lowland Scots. Stay for live was }the norm when I lived in the Glasgow area. I'm not sure whether it is }used in all areas of Scotland. Could there be some connection between }where it is found in the US and Scotch/Irish immigration to those areas? That would be my guess. The immigration of the Scots and Irish (and Scots-Irish) to the south and midland areas of the US is very common. Has Michael Montgomery commented on "stay" in any of his works about Scots (lg) influence on American speech? As to "stay" being used outside of Glasgow, yes it's the common usage to ask "where do you stay?" all over the Lowlands (and even in the Highlands). Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:44:37 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Stupid question dept. This could be fun: a cute guy a coutist; a Nute Gingerich fan a Noutist. On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: O.K. So I was driving to work this morning listening to a lute piece on the classical station. When the piece was done, the announcer said something about the musician, who was described as a lutenist. (I am guessing at the spelling.) The word was repeated for all of us who had never heard it before, so I am sure it is correct. My stupid question is: if a flute player is a floutist, why isn't a lute player a loutist? Just wondering. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:18:16 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Stupid question dept. If a person who wears no clothes is a nudist, is one that enjoys wearing much clothing called a closist? Let me cite a Western called "The Shootist." Is that indicative of one that shoots? Is one the eats an eatist? Is one that dives a divist? Consider, if you will, the pyist (pieman), the meat-cuttist (butcher), or the paintist (painter). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:17:38 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: St. Lewis Respelling a city's name to accommodate pronunciation can sometimes backfire. Wooster, Ohio is named for Worchester or Worcester and older speakers say [wUs] for the first syllable but younger ones say [wus], perhaps prompted by the the more common pronunciation of the {OO} spelling to tense the vowel. -- _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: TTh 9-10 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:41:16 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE St. Lewis My father, a Missouri native who spent part of his childhood in the Ozarks and the other part in St. Louis, claims the city is called /sant LOUH-uss muh-ZER-uh/ (please pardon my amateur attempts at presenting a pronunciation guide). The i in Saint is disregarded and the LOUH is kind of like the French "le" but less, well, French. My mother, on the other hand, who spent her entire childhood in the St. Louis, claims the more conventional pronunciation of /saint LOOH-iss mih-ZER-ee/. Strongest accent in the whole phrase on the ZER. The only people who pronounce it Saint Looey are freaks, weirdos and other foreigners. I have never, I repeat never, heard anyone from that city call it Saint Looey outside of a bad joke. Judy Garland got it wrong. I myself pronounce it like my mother unless I'm tired or drunk in which case the hillbilly comes out and I talk like my father. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com PS: Welcome back, Barry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:26:35 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Wednesday with a [d] DInIS (dreaming-of-them-cotton-fields-at-home) Preston Well, them cotton field's are rotten today because it's a-raining and a-raining and a-raining. I wore rubber boots. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:29:19 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: St. Lewis Bugs Bunny said (something like), "See you in St. Loo-ee, sucker." Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:43:12 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: St. Lewis At 10:29 AM 11/13/97, you (Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU ) wrote: Bugs Bunny said (something like), "See you in St. Loo-ee, sucker." Maybe: "See ya in Saint Looey, screwy." (??) If that is you don't take a wrong turn at Albuquerque and end up in Kookamunga (sp.?, comewhere in southern Cal. I think). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:18:39 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: stay and live Matthew James Gordon asks about... The use of "stay" AS OPPOSED TO "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) [emphasis added -- MAM] I am puzzled by the form of the question. You seem to be talking about "stay" used as *equivalent* to "live" (in the sense of 'reside' [at a permanent address]), and that is how respondents have taken it, so I don't understand why you refer to opposition. Would you please explain? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:32:11 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: stay and live Mark Mandel wonders, Matthew James Gordon asks about... The use of "stay" AS OPPOSED TO "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) [emphasis added -- MAM] I am puzzled by the form of the question. You seem to be talking about "stay" used as *equivalent* to "live" (in the sense of 'reside' [at a permanent address]), and that is how respondents have taken it, so I don't understand why you refer to opposition. Would you please explain? Actually I thought it was pretty clear in context. "stay" and "live" are in paradigmatic opposition as semantic equivalents, at least in this context. The use of "stay" in Dialect S (for Scots-derived, ex hyp.) is in opposition with the use of "live" in other dialects. This does not preclude my "live" from being (semantically) equivalent to your "stay". L ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:39:16 -0500 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" Sorry for entering into the thread so late, but I just had to add my two cents. I've heard both "it's all good," and "git-go," as in "from the git-go," all of my 38 years. They may be based in AAVE; they may be based in Southern English, but whatever the case, the uses of both most decidedly run back further than four years. It seems to me very possible that rap, hip-hop, or other movements in popular culture--film, TV, theatre--borrow from what came before. The trick is taking the phrase, word, usage, back to its original context, which this thread never did. Boy, we do need Popik back on-list. Later. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Margaret G. Lee -English wrote: As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. Margaret Lee Hampton University On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Tom Head wrote: Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:21:01 -0600 From: Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: "it's all good" Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the jazz era, but I have no proof. The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:27:51 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? At 10:08 AM 11/12/97 +0200, you wrote: As a foriegner (Russian-speaker) I can only add that the form is rather popular with us as it allows us to follow the patterns of our language. In Russian you can build sentences without subject in Passive. I am told that in Russian two negatives do not make a positive. This was recently related in the following story: An English prof was explaining that in English two negatives make a positive, but in Russian they do not. But in no language do two positives every make a negative. To which one of the students replied, "Yeah. Right." Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:20:56 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: "Ebonics" for "AAVE"? On a non-linguistics list, i just read the ff. query, apparently straight-forward: ---- Subject: Re: creole languages or AAVE in linguistic evidence (criminal) I'm not acquainted with the term African American Vernacular Language. Is it related in any way to Ebonics? ---- Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:28:01 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: The full Monty Leslie Dunkling asked me to post this information for the benefit of adslers who hae been looking for explanations of 'the full monty'. I have had to stop lurking on the ADS list - at least temporarily - owing to pressure of other interests, but before I left the list there was some interest in the origin of the phrase "the full Monty." This was something I had never heard until the film appeared, nor was the phrase familiar to any of my linguistically-interested friends. I even had an e-mail from a professor of English asking me whether I knew anything about it. A suggestion has now been made which I think justifies serious consideration. In Britain there is a long-established chain of tailors called Burtons. The shops were formerly known as Montague Burton's, presumably for the man who founded them. The suggestion is that "the full Monty" originally referred to a complete man's outfit bought from Montague Burton's, a suit with waistcoat - the whole caboodle, in other words. (There's another phrase to conjure with!) In favour of this idea is the fact that at one time there was a branch of Montague Burton's in nearly every high street, including the area of England where the film was set. But this phrase has never been in general use throughout the country. Whatever its origin, it was never more than a local piece of slang. Do pass on the gist of this to ADS members if you think they will be interested. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:41:32 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: "Ebonics" for "AAVE"? Bethany K. Dumas wrote: On a non-linguistics list, i just read the ff. query, apparently straight-forward: ---- Subject: Re: creole languages or AAVE in linguistic evidence (criminal) I'm not acquainted with the term African American Vernacular Language. Is it related in any way to Ebonics? ---- i told my students that grown-ups call "ebonics" "AAVE" (ok, i wasn't quite that disparaging to the word, but my students tend to hear "ebonics" and think "stupid p.c. garbage", so i like to encourage a name with a little more scientific and less political baggage). so, one of my students went to the texas tesol conference in austin last weekend and tried to speak with the professionals about "AAVE", and got blank stares in return, until her interlocutors caught on and said "oh, you mean ebonics!" i think that'll keep me out of the teacher hall of fame. lynne p.s. beth simon, are you out there on this list? all my responses to your teach-ling request got bounced back (teach-ling has my address wrong and won't let me post because of it). if you've not gotten a message from me about lex readings, drop me a line so i can use the reply function. -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Nov 1997 to 13 Nov 1997 ************************************************ 9. Word of the year (3) 16. Yet another test 17. ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks 18. language and power 19. VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War (2) 20. VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Civil War (2) 21. VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Gulf War II? (2) 22. Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:15:51 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: St. Lewis Thanks, Barry, for the St. Louis cites. Welcome back. Was something official passed in 1918? This is from the Milwaukee Journal, 19 April 1918, pg. 16, col. 3: I don't know whether some official statement was made by St Louis "authorities" in 1918, but it is not by any means infrequent that St Louisans complain about how others pronounce the name of their fair city, even though most of the population is in St. Louis County (and last week the county voters turned down a tax to expand the city's recently built light rail system, which working-class employees at Lambert Airport like, according to the man who shined my shoes last week). "ST. LEWIS" St. Louis, through its Chamber of Commerce, has decided how its own name should be pronounced. It should, according to this edict of "self-determination," be broadly anglicized and called "St. Lewis." "St. Louis" is officially tabooed. I suspect the issue here is both the vowel (boot vs put) as well as the presence or absence of final [s]. In cases like this, there is often a mishmash of misunderstanding (a-understanding?). The French pronunciation would have a rising diphthong as opposed to the falling diphthong of the English "Louie," so the complaint has more to do with the sound of an English form than with preservation of a "pure" French form. Another thing that bothers St Louisans is that out-staters often say "Sant Louis" with the vowel of 'can' rather than "Saint..." with the vowel of 'paint'. Yes, they generally don't like "St Louie" except in the song. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:42:34 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Gender I am writing a case study on the effect of gender stereotype and subconscious perception on tutorial sessions in the Writing Center. This topic pertains to sociolinguistics because the tutorial session is an interactive speech event. Perceptions related to gender -- whether or not the be demeaning -- seem to be extremely salient. I would appreciate any information backing up my hypothesis or in opposition to it. Warm regards, Dave Pass If you're looking for an easy explanation, lotsa luck. On why I say this, you might take a look at "Investigating Sex-Marked Language" in _Language_Variation_ in_North_American_English_** (MLA, 1993), pp. 242-247. The article isn't about exactly what you're looking for, but it demonstrates that when males and females are asked to respond to language use by the opposite or the same gender not much agreement emerges, sometimes differences that inferential statistics suggest would be substantially different over 99 times out of 100. So lots of negotiation must accompany cross-gender communication sometimes. No easy answer. Some would say it's in our genes and in our jeans, but that would be a cliche that I would naturally avoid. The article is by some guy with the same name as mine. Sometimes I think I know him, other times I'm sure I don't, and sometimes I wish I'd never even heard of him. Sometimes, though, he gets things right, mostly by accident. ** In case some of you have wondered about the tautology in the title of this book, when Wayne Glowka and that other guy were beating the bushes for articles, they had dreamed of getting articles on Chicano Spanish, Cajun French, and Canadian French as well as on mundane English. They didn't get 'em, but they didn't think about the title till Joe Gibaldi at MLA pointed out that the book was just about English, thus the tautologous accretion at the last minute -- just because specialists in those interesting lects were too busy with other things to submit articles for this important volume. Has anybody not caught on to the fact that I'm shamelessly plugging this book? It's about teaching about dialect. It's an ADS Centennial publication, with 39 original articles. And Dennis Preston has a book on research on language variation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:55:30 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: RE St. Lewis Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com wrote: My father, a Missouri native who spent part of his childhood in the Ozarks and the other part in St. Louis, claims the city is called /sant LOUH-uss muh-ZER-uh/ (please pardon my amateur attempts at presenting a pronunciation guide). The i in Saint is disregarded and the LOUH is kind of like the French "le" but less, well, French. My mother, on the other hand, who spent her entire childhood in the St. Louis, claims the more conventional pronunciation of /saint LOOH-iss mih-ZER-ee/. Strongest accent in the whole phrase on the ZER. ........................... What vowel does "ZER" have? The vowel of 'pooh' or 'put' or 'purr'? Are you sure all three of you have the same vowel in this syllable? All three pronunciations are common in 'Missouri'. And LOUH has the vowel of 'Luke' and LOOH the vowel of 'look'? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 01:29:26 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE "For the Love of Mike" was discussed last year, and it's in the RHHDAS H-O (pg. 473), starting with 1892. I tied it in with Mike Tyson and Michael Jordan news stories. It's assumed by the RHHDAS that "Mike" is a euphemism for "God," but that need not be so. The source (which I found after that posting) may instead be a Little Orphan Annie-type character from Philadelphia. This is from the World, 23 November 1879, pg. 10, col. 5: LITTLE MIKE. Philadelphia Evening Bulletin. ("Little Mike," a lonely little waif, who died in the Children's Hospital some time ago, lay all the day before his death plaintively watching several children who were pronounced cured and whose friends had come to remove them; and then, with a pitiful ache in his voice, turned to the nurse in charge, saying, "Dear Nurse, when will my friends come? All the rest going, only I have no home.") I. Only a hospital child! Why let fall a tear? Only a hired nurse Standing beside the bier! (,,,) VII. Only "I have no friends! Dear Nurse, when will they come? See! all the others going, Only I have no home! VIII. Only a short, short waiting! White-winged Friends have come And borne the little lone one Up to Love and a Home! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- LET'S GO! In my "No Man's Land" posting, the alleged author of that phrase also claimed authorship of "Let's go!" This is from the Milwaukee Journal, 1 March 1919, pg. 4, col. 3: "LET'S GO!" It was left for the colored troops to coin one of the most distinctly American slogans of the war. A colonel of one of the negro regiments stated that his men received every order with the formula: "Let's go!" Were they told to march, to patrol, to raid or to charge, they answered with the same expression of hearty good will--and went. "Let's go!" It is a truly American sentiment. It expresses action, rather than waiting. It is what the whole nation said when the period of letter writing was over. It was the fighting watchword from Cantigny to Sedan. Nay, it is the watchword still, for when America is called upon to go over the top for a lasting peace, be sure she will answer, "Let's go."--Chicago Journal. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- COP Evan Morris's Sunday Daily News column explained "Cop." I like the little poem in this explanation, from the Philadelphia Inquirer, Everybody's Column, 19 February 1905, pg. 8, col. 7: A "COP" (C. B. L.).--"Please tell me in Everybody's Column how the word "cop" came to be applied to the policemen. There has been a favorite rhyme among English schoolboys for generations past which says: "He that cops what isn't his'n, Will be copped and put to prison." This verb "to cop," you see, is an old-timer, meaning "to take," "to catch," "to capture;" naturally enough a "copper" is a "catcher" (a policeman); and (although none of our dictionaries says so) "cop" seems to us to be nothing more than a free-and-easy popular abbreviation of "copper." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE JINX Left out of my study of the "jinx" (and left out of the RHHDAS and the DA as well) was an important citation--THE JINX: STORIES OF THE DIAMOND by Allen Sangree (1910). See the New York Times Review of it (which I don't have here). This is from page 31 of the book: But the ball players instantly knew the truth. "A jinx, a jinx," they whispered along the bench. "Cross-eyed girl sittin' over there back o' third. See her? She's got Th' Dasher. Holy smoke, look at them eyes!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- Is it too late for a multi-part Veterans Day special? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:37:31 +0200 From: Liudmila Kostiukevich lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? That is absolutely right. In Russian two negatives can be used without making meaning of the sentence positive. Moreover, the use of two negetives are very often and they even strenghten the negation. L.Kostiukevich On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: At 10:08 AM 11/12/97 +0200, you wrote: As a foriegner (Russian-speaker) I can only add that the form is rather popular with us as it allows us to follow the patterns of our language. In Russian you can build sentences without subject in Passive. I am told that in Russian two negatives do not make a positive. This was recently related in the following story: An English prof was explaining that in English two negatives make a positive, but in Russian they do not. But in no language do two positives every make a negative. To which one of the students replied, "Yeah. Right." Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 02:03:26 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers Ok, now I'm curious. If there are all these folks who call green peppers mangoes, what do they then call mangoes? And do they call other bell/sweet peppers that aren't green also mangoes? Rima ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:05:35 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Middle English shares this double negation phenomenon with Russian. The phenomenon can be observed in Chaucer in which the word "ni" is used to emphasize negation. The more ni's in a setence, the more negative it is. Dave Pass ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:02:24 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers -Reply I'm going to hazard a guess here, as a long-time resident of mango-producing and eating areas. The folks who use "mango" for "green bell pepper", especially the older ones, would likely not have known the true tropical mango. It certainly would not have been a produce market item in most of the area, except perhaps in specialty markets in large cities. Also, the yellow, red, and black (purple?) bell peppers that we now see commonly would not have been familiar. I've never heard the term "red mango" used of a sweet red bell pepper, but then I don't live in a mango area anymore. Herb Stahlke Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET 11/14/97 05:03am Ok, now I'm curious. If there are all these folks who call green peppers mangoes, what do they then call mangoes? And do they call other bell/sweet peppers that aren't green also mangoes? Rima ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:25:13 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: More re Ebonics & AAVE Last night I posted the ff. query from another (non-linguistis) list: I'm not acquainted with the term African American Vernacular Language. Is it related in any way to Ebonics? Then Lynne posted. From the list I originally copied from, I offer this: For detailed discussions of the differences you may want to check the Linguist list. As a starting point, I would suggest http://www.emich.edu/~linguist/issues/8/8-1312.html. It appears that the terms are not always being used interchangeably "out there." Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:00:42 EST From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: mangoes=peppers Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]slip.net asks: Ok, now I'm curious. If there are all these folks who call green peppers mangoes, what do they then call mangoes? And do they call other bell/sweet peppers that aren't green also mangoes? to the first question: "fruit mangoes". the culturally marked item gets more linguistic material to the second question: at least in central ohio, yes. folks who have lived here all their lives seem genuinely puzzled by "sweet pepper" (and, unless they're serious gardeners, by "bell pepper"). but though most mangoes are green, some are red or yellow. my partner is deeply averse to sweet peppers, and he's also pretty nearly deaf, so the task of ensuring that restaurant food is free of sweet peppers falls to me. this is exceedingly difficult, because there's no way to guess at the linguistic experience of servers (and, then, it sometimes turns out that they don't know what's in the dishes they're serving anyway). i usually start by asking if some dish has peppers in it, not hot peppers, but sweet peppers (providing a hint towards what "sweet pepper" means). if that doesn't work, i ask about mangoes and green peppers. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu), who was shocked many years ago on first being offered mango pizza ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:10:21 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx At 01:29 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you ("Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ) wrote: Is it too late for a multi-part Veterans Day special? No. Best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:14:22 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx At 10:10 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you (Greg Downing) wrote: At 01:29 AM 11/14/97 -0500, you ("Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ) wrote: Is it too late for a multi-part Veterans Day special? No. Best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Less concisely but less misconstruably: No, it isn't too late, in my opinion. (Second) Best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:13:24 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Word of the year I propose the word "Ebonics" as the word of the year. It has probably prompted more discussion about language and dialect-- both negative and postive--than any other word. The Oakland school board created much controversy of course. Although AAVE is widely used in language journals, I don't think I have ever heard anyone use AAVE outside a circle of specialists. I object to the use of "vernacular" in the term, an objection that I have had since the early 1980s. Until we consistently use "vernacular" with other terms, such as Southern dialect, Northern dialect, Yiddish English, Chicano English, etc., we make, in my opinion, an unfortunate distinction for African American English. Enough of this soap boax topic. I don't think anyone has submitted "Ebonics" for WOTY. I think that it is definitely a strong candidate. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:13:10 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx At 01:29 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Barry A. Popik wrote: Is it too late for a multi-part Veterans Day special? Let's go! -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:29:47 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Word of the year At 10:13 AM 11/14/97 -0500, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: I propose the word "Ebonics" as the word of the year. It has probably prompted more discussion about language and dialect-- both negative and postive--than any other word. "Ebonics" was the winner in the "Most Controversial" category in 1996. I notice that "stalkerazzi" was a runner-up for "Most Outrageous" that year. Are previous years' category winners ever promoted to WOTY? -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:40:13 -0800 From: Matthew James Gordon gordonm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live Larry Horn wrote: Mark Mandel wonders, Matthew James Gordon asks about... The use of "stay" AS OPPOSED TO "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) [emphasis added -- MAM] I am puzzled by the form of the question. You seem to be talking about "stay" used as *equivalent* to "live" (in the sense of 'reside' [at a permanent address]), and that is how respondents have taken it, so I don't understand why you refer to opposition. Would you please explain? Actually I thought it was pretty clear in context. "stay" and "live" are in paradigmatic opposition as semantic equivalents, at least in this context. The use of "stay" in Dialect S (for Scots-derived, ex hyp.) is in opposition with the use of "live" in other dialects. This does not preclude my "live" from being (semantically) equivalent to your "stay". LOf course, that is precisely what I intended to convey. Thank you for explaining it so clearly, Larry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:48:29 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: the full Monte A colleague informs me that he heard the following explanation for the full Monte: from Field Marshall Montgomery's insistance during the war upon a full English breakfast every morning, however he was circumstanced in the field, and so the expression came to mean rashers, kippers, eggs..., the whole kit and caboodle. I like the Montague Burton tailoring shops explanation a bit better. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:35:14 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Test; please ignore Sorry about this. I'm just testing a filtering system. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:39:51 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Another test, sorry Same as before, just testing a filtering system. Sorry for the inconvenience. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:55:35 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live I am an African American from Houston, TX with much of my family from Baton Rouge, LA. We used "stay" for "live" quite regularl in the context mentioned by Matt. --SL ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:23:30 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: One more test, continued apologies Terribly sorry about this. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:31:34 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: On multi-test and multi-apologies At 01:23 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: Terribly sorry about this. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com *I* don't mind, but it just occurred to me: Could you possibly be doing it not just for a filter test, but also to elicit a few fresh f-word cites for an update? All test, I mean best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:20:54 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Yet another test Sorry, sorry. You know the drill. JTS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:39:12 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks This is an administrative note to let people know that Jesse Sheidlower will be out of the country for two weeks on his honeymoon and will be unable to process any ADS-L issues during this time. He should be back by December. Any administrative matters should be sent through the usual channels or directly to the co-listowner, Terry Lynn Irons, at t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU . I've been setting up a filter so that I continue to receive ADS-L messages in my absence, but error reports (of which there are usually hundreds per day) are nuked before they clog my mailbox. Sorry for the inconvenience. Best to all, Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:44:21 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Word of the year Are previous years' category winners ever promoted to WOTY? The official answer is - hasn't happened yet (because there are always so many nominees), but there's no rule against it. - Allan Metcalf Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:58:50 -0500 From: Eric Baus EMB1210[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: language and power Hello, I'm doing some research on the ethnography of service based interactions with an emphasis on issues of power. If anyone has any directions to point me in I'd be grateful. Any sources, sites, books, articles, etc... Eric Baus (EMB1210[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:36:43 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? And of course Modern English double (and triple, and quadruple,...) negation also emphasizes the negative; it does not make the sentence meaning positive, despite the prescriptions of our Miss Fidditch grade school teachers. Language ain't mathematics! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:27:50 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War This is from the San Francisco Chronicle, 2 December 1919, pg. 20, cols. 6-7: NAMING THE WAR As a name for the war which began in the August of 1914 and ended in the November of 1918, the one formally adopted by our War Department--"The World War"--is not a bad one. It is as good, perhaps, as any of the two or three others that have been suggested, and more than possibly none better will be found. Yet it is not a name to excite instant and enthusiastic acceptance, and its fate with the people of the world could not be prophesied with any safety. Of all the innumerable wars that have been waged since history began, comparatively few have required any name at all. The great majority of them, from that insignificant enough to merit Hume's comparison with "the skirmishes of kites and crows" up to those that appreciably affected human destiny and racial conditions, have had to go with no better designation than a phrase telling when and where they were fought and by whom. We have not yet fully agreed on a name for the war between our North and South, and American independence was gained by a war which we are usually content to call "the Revolution"--which is quite undistinctive for anybody except ourselves. The "Mexican War" and "the War of 1812" can hardly be said to have names, and "the war with Spain" is of designation similarly dubious. "The World War" is a fairly natural growth from the facts, and its element of exaggeration, though obvious and real, is so small as to offend only a few nations that did manage to keep out of it, and nobody much minds what they say. It might have been as wise if our departmental officials had waited a while before they named the greatest of wars. There is some excuse for denying that the war is over yet, and while that can be done nobody can be sure what name will fit the war or stand permanent wear.--New York Times. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:15:17 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Dear Ms. Flannigan, True. Language is not math; however, it is logical. May I make reference to computational linguistics, and in particular to a journal article entitled "Translating Spanisn to Logic Through Logic." Dave Pass ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:54:02 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Civil War CIVIL WAR This is from the New York World, 23 July 1898, pg. 3, col. 5: "CIVIL WAR BETWEEN THE STATES." Confederate Veterans Object to "War of the Rebellion"--Honors for Miss Winnie Davis. ATLANTA. July 22.--(...) the convention of United Confederate Veterans. (...) By unanimous vote it was decided to condemn the expression "War of the rebellion" being applied to the struggle of 1861-65, and to urge the designation of it as the "Civil war between the States." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE CONFEDERATE STATES This is from the Daily Telegraph (Macon, Georgia), 18 February 1861, pg. 1, col. 4: "THE CONFEDERATE STATES." "The name is a good one, and means the same thing the old one did. Confederate means United, and hence, though a different word is used, the name is the same in meaning as that of the old government,"--_Griffin Union_. There is a very important difference in the meaning of the terms _"united"_ and _"confederate,"_ which it is desirable should be pointed out and understood. We believe, if the name of the late Republic had been "Confederate States" and not "_United_ States," the intestine quarrels to which she fell a victim would in great part have been avoided, and the country remained at peace. It was the misfortune of the terms "Union" and "_United_ States," that they conveyed to the Northern mind an idea, sedulously encouraged by their politicians from first to last, that the country was literally a _unit_, subordinate in every thing to a central power, to which it was responsible and amenable for every act of a political character. Hence, the Northern abolitionist became, in his own fancy, responsible for the existence or the extension of slavery, and held, as a corollary, that the Federal Government ought to prohibit both. This pretension would have never been set up to any great extent, if a just idea of the character of the government had been conveyed in its very name--if it had been called for example "The Confederate States"--_i. e._ Sovereign States (not _united_, merged into, cemented together, or compounded into one government or sovereignty), but leagued together in a compact or alliance for mutual support. There is about as much difference, then, between _"united"_ and _"confederate,"_ as there is between an egg nog and a fagot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- REBEL This is from the Intelligencer (Atlanta, Georgia), 19 December 1861, pg. 2, col. 2: One remarkable feature about Lincoln's late message is that he avoids altogether the word "rebel." He has discovered at last that Southern patriots rejoice to inherit the epithet applied to George Washington--"the first rebel." He now doses us with the designation of "insurgents." The coming generation will regard _that_ name equally honorable. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:54:15 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Gulf War II? How does "Gulf War II" sound? DON KING: It's no "Rumble in the Jungle" or "Thrilla in Manila." POPIK: So you're saying-- DON KING: "The Battle of Baghdad." POPIK: "The Line Redrawn in the Sand." DON KING: "Between Iraq and a Hard Place." POPIK: "The Mother of all Rematches." DON KING: "The Desert Dessert: Finishing the Job." POPIK: "Restormin' Normans." DON KING: "Taming the Tigris II." POPIK: "Only in America." DON KING: "Only in America?" POPIK: Oops. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:07:20 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? Query: a Japanese correspondent of mine from the Joyce email list wondered if the phrase "quit, quit now" is a current US catchphrase. I only recognize it in a very general way, in that the formula "[imperative verb], [imperative verb] now" seems desperately emphatic. Does anyone recognize the phrase in question as a distinctive locution? My correspondent cites a quote first, where the comic strip Beetle Bailey is apparently being discussed, and then presents his question as well as a suggestion which I don't know about: IMHO Cathy and BB are pretty bleak. As for BB it is tired from years and years of the same old, same old. Last year I read that Beetle Bailey was going with a more politically correct theme. General HalfTrack was going to turn over a new leaf. Quit, quit now.... I rather suspect the writer in his last words, 'Quit, quit now', may be jokingly alluding to a certain phrase popular in the States (current in anti-smoking campaigns?) Any clue? Reply to me on- or off-list; thanks in advance. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:17:41 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? At 09:07 PM 11/14/97 -0500, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: Query: a Japanese correspondent of mine from the Joyce email list wondered if the phrase "quit, quit now" is a current US catchphrase. I only recognize it in a very general way, in that the formula "[imperative verb], [imperative verb] now" seems desperately emphatic. Does anyone recognize the phrase in question as a distinctive locution? Not per se, but it might be related to the "Be afraid, be very afraid" line from the Jeff Goldblum remake of "The Fly" a few years back. That one has attained currency as a catch phrase in its own right, probably through its use in the once-pervasive TV ads for the film. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:27:35 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? At 09:17 PM 11/14/97 -0500, you wrote: Query: a Japanese correspondent of mine from the Joyce email list wondered if the phrase "quit, quit now" is a current US catchphrase. I only recognize it in a very general way, in that the formula "[imperative verb], [imperative verb] now" seems desperately emphatic. Does anyone recognize the phrase in question as a distinctive locution? Not per se, but it might be related to the "Be afraid, be very afraid" line from the Jeff Goldblum remake of "The Fly" a few years back. I'd thought of that as somehow parallel, but I wasn't sure it was close enough. Certianly could be, though. But I didn't where the "B A, B V A" line had come from! It really doesn't go back any further than that? Anyway, I *have* heard *that* line a lot the past few years, in the media and in "real life." Thanks again. Additional ideas? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:24:55 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War Barry unearthed the following: This is from the San Francisco Chronicle, 2 December 1919, pg. 20, cols. 6-7: NAMING THE WAR As a name for the war which began in the August of 1914 and ended in the November of 1918, the one formally adopted by our War Department--"The World War"--is not a bad one. It is as good, perhaps, as any of the two or three others that have been suggested, and more than possibly none better will be found. Yet it is not a name to excite instant and enthusiastic acceptance and its fate with the people of the world could not be prophesied with any safety. Funny--I always thought they called it "World War I"... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:32:50 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Civil War Barry A. Popik wrote: CIVIL WAR There is about as much difference, then, between _"united"_ and _"confederate,"_ as there is between an egg nog and a fagot. I don't know about that. At the New Years Parties I have been to they both end up with a pretty high alcohol content by the end of the festivities. Danny Long (who grew up drinking only boiled custard) -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:40:22 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.NE.JP Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: Gulf War II? Barry A. Popik wrote: How does "Gulf War II" sound? DON KING: "Between Iraq and a Hard Place." POPIK: "The Mother of all Rematches." I like "Between Iraq and a Hard Place" best. Too bad Don King thought of it instead of Barry. Better luck next time Barry. By the way, I don't believe this has come up yet -- I think Raven McDavid wrote an article on names for the Civil War. Title was "The Late Unpleasentness -- names for the Civil War" or something like that. Danny Long (who's not real sure who Don King is, but knows he must be someone famous if Barry Popik has conversations with him) -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:36:21 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx COP Evan Morris's Sunday Daily News column explained "Cop." I like the little poem in this explanation, from the Philadelphia Inquirer, Everybody's Column, 19 February 1905, pg. 8, col. 7: A "COP" (C. B. L.).--"Please tell me in Everybody's Column how the word "cop" came to be applied to the policemen. There has been a favorite rhyme among English schoolboys for generations past which says: "He that cops what isn't his'n, Will be copped and put to prison." This verb "to cop," you see, is an old-timer, meaning "to take," "to catch," "to capture;" naturally enough a "copper" is a "catcher" (a policeman); and (although none of our dictionaries says so) "cop" seems to us to be nothing more than a free-and-easy popular abbreviation of "copper." ......................... I wonder if "to cop a plea" is related to the 'take' use of 'cop'. Barry, have you traced this one? I suppose I oughta look in my reference books before posting this question, but I'm running out of spare time tonight. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Nov 1997 to 14 Nov 1997 ************************************************ 9. Yet another test (3) 16. Enough! (this version is minus the typos) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:58:33 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks This is an administrative note to let people know that Jesse Sheidlower will be out of the country for two weeks on his honeymoon Congratulations and best wishes from all of us!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:35:51 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? Quit, quit now.... I rather suspect the writer in his last words, 'Quit, quit now', may be jokingly alluding to a certain phrase popular in the States (current in anti-smoking campaigns?) Any clue? The echoes of this phrase in my head are of a parent correcting children who are misbehaving, or a child telling another to stop doing something that is annoying. Not quite a saying like "Cease and desist!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 23:30:10 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? True. Language is not math; however, it is logical. Au contraire. Language itself is neither logical nor illogical. Judgments about logic are judgments about people's actions, their verbal CLAIMS, and the physics of consequences of concatenations of phenomena in the time-space continuum in which our minds function. The meanings of words derive from how people use them, not from the words themselves, which in the final analysis are merely oscillations of molecules in a sound medium or marks on flattish surfaces. What one claims with words may or may not match what our experiences tell us about how things work in our time-space continuum. The people who say "I ain't got none" and mean that 'none' is exactly what they have are merely augmenting the negation, not negating the negation. Does any native speaker of English ever assume that someone else's "I ain't got none" or "I can't hardly do that any more" or "He won't never come back" is actually a negation of a negative? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 02:14:24 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell slangman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: For the Love of Mike; Let's Go!; Cop; The Jinx I've done a fair amount of research on the word "cop" for a book on slang to be published by Merriam-Webster in 1998. "Cop" is a great example of a slang word with multiple folk etymologies, many of which are clearly apocryphal. If you are truly interested, I'll summarize what I came up with; to make a long story short, the origin suggested by the poem you cite is probably correct. Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 09:13:33 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Not a comment not about multiple negation in English Beverly, I agree that double (or multiple) negation seldom follows simple math rules in English, but I wonder about the emphatic function you assign it. It seems to me that in most varieties of English which regularly employ it, multiple negation does not emphasize the negation at all. It is simply an obligatory attachment of a negator to the AUX and to every indefinite of the clause (and in some varieties, other clauses). For example, Didn't nobody never mess with us kids from New Albany. is not an 'emphatic' form of Nobody ever messed with us kids from New Albany. It is simply the 'normal' assignment of negation (with some accomnying adjustments, AUX-fronting, for example) in that variety. If you wanted emphatic qualities for that string, stress would do the trick, e.g., Didn't NObody never... or Didn't nobody NEver.. DInIS (a native speaker of that variety) Preston And of course Modern English double (and triple, and quadruple,...) negation also emphasizes the negative; it does not make the sentence meaning positive, despite the prescriptions of our Miss Fidditch grade school teachers. Language ain't mathematics! Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:51:06 -0500 From: Katherine Freeland FreeLanK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SMTPLINK.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re[2]: ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks Congrats to Jesse Sheidlower! However, I need a copy of his article "The F Word" asap and have not been able to get it through the library. Anyone have any suggestions? I really need to have it faxed. Freelank[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]smtplink.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:26:32 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War At 10:24 PM 11/14/97 EST, you wrote: Barry unearthed the following: (San Francisco Chronicle, 2 December 1919, pg. 20,, cols. 6-7): NAMING THE WAR As a name for the war which began in the August of 1914 and ended in the November of 1918, the one formally adopted by our War Department--"The World War"--is not a bad one.... Funny--I always thought they called it "World War I"... Larry (Horn) In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). They also called it "the Great War" before 1939ff., according to my memory of my reading on the subject. Now that JS is gone, do we start the conga line? O -- I forgot about Terry Irons. Forget I said that. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:39:47 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? At 11:35 PM 11/14/97 -0600, you (Donald Lance) wrote: Quit, quit now.... I rather suspect the writer in his last words, 'Quit, quit now', may be jokingly alluding to a certain phrase popular in the States (current in anti-smoking campaigns?) Any clue? The echoes of this phrase in my head are of a parent correcting children who are misbehaving, or a child telling another to stop doing something that is annoying. Not quite a saying like "Cease and desist!" That sounds like it may be part of it too together with Evan Morris's hint -- I'm still collecting hints for my Japanese correspondent if there are other ideas on this thread.... I told him I'd get back to him in the next couple of days.... Speak now, or forever etc. (I.e., quit, quit soon -- but not yet.) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:32:06 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks Note that Jesse's magnum opus, _The F Word_, is a book (published by Random House) rather than an article. I am proud to be one of three people, along with John Simpson and Bernard Kane, thanked in the acknowledgments for help with citations. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:39:57 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). Actually, the term _First World War_ appears at least as early as 1920. In that year, Charles a Court Repington published a book entitled _The First World War, 1914-1918_. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:43:51 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). Also note that the OED has a citation for "World War No. 2" dated 1919. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:18:38 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Cop I've done a fair amount of research on the word "cop" for a book on slang to be published by Merriam-Webster in 1998. "Cop" is a great example of a slang word with multiple folk etymologies, many of which are clearly apocryphal. If you are truly interested, I'll summarize what I came up with; to make a long story short, the origin suggested by the poem you cite is probably correct. Tom Dalzell (slangman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pacbell.net) Show us the "money," the full monty, etc. Don't cop out.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:52:59 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: ADMIN: Sheidlower away for two weeks At 11:32 AM 11/15/97 -0500, you (Fred Shapiro) wrote: Note that Jesse's magnum opus, _The F Word_, is a book (published by Random House) rather than an article. I am proud to be one of three people, along with John Simpson and Bernard Kane, thanked in the acknowledgments for help with citations. Yes, and it's available in paperback, quite inexpensively if memory serves. If it's not at your local bookstore (under the counter?? add your own emoticon here...) and the person wanting it has no good way to do special orders through a local bookstore, you can get it through various online bookstores (amazon.com, the Barnes and Noble online site whose exact address I forget, etc.). They ship within a day or two usually.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:01:53 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War At 11:39 AM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). Actually, the term _First World War_ appears at least as early as 1920. In that year, Charles a Court Repington published a book entitled _The First World War, 1914-1918_. Well, I should know by this point never to rely on what a historian says about language-usage -- they're historians "rerum," not historians "verborum" aka etymologists.... But who knew there'd be a second in 1920, besides maybe John Maynard Keynes in his _Economic Consequences of the Peace_ (1919)? I wonder what CaCR's insight/agenda/etc. was in assigning an ordinal in 1920? Do you know off the top of your head from having seen the cite? Seems like titling the book that in 1919 would be a pretty provocative thing to do. Maybe the pessimistic aspect of postwar mood or Zeitgeist was at work (cf. the huge success of Spengler's _Untergang des Abendlandes_/_Decline of the West_ in about 1919-20 right after the book appeared). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:07:57 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Yet another test what IS a filtering system anyway? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:36:56 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Yet another test At 03:07 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: what IS a filtering system anyway? There are various, but JS's yesterday (as he said) is meant to catch all the "bounces" he gets from listmembers with server problems ("undeliverable mail" error messages due to list-posts going to inoperative addresses) and send them somewhere other than his personal box while he's gone (people's personal accounts not infrequently have maximum limits, after which they'll start to generate error-loops or something...). Other filters can be to keep abusive people from posting to a list, to erase all message incoming to your email from an abusive person (aka a "killfile," with which people on the nastier newsgroups constantly taunt each other), etc. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:31:52 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live I've noticed the use of stay or live totally in the African American community, perhaps reflecting African Americans' great migration from the South to the North in the early to mid 1900's. Many times they "stayed" with relatives or friends who had already migrated North, until they could establish their own households. Sometimes this process took a long time, maybe due to lack of work, or low wages, or other conditions, and people ending up "staying" longer than desired or expected, or moving on to "stay" with another friend or relative. Anyway, "stay" seems to reflect a history of temporary living conditions in the lives of some oppressed African Americans. On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Matthew James Gordon wrote: Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:56:16 -0800 From: Matthew James Gordon gordonm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: stay and live Since moving to the Chicago area (NW Indiana), I have noticed a usage that was previously unfamilar to me. The use of "stay" as opposed to "live" as in "Where do you stay?" "I stay in Hammond on 173rd street." (It is clear that the meaning of temporary residence (e.g. "stay in a hotel") is not intended.) I wonder if anyone has discussed the distribution of this form or has observed it elsewhere. The couple of times I have noted this it has been from African American speakers, but I suppose it might be regional as well or instead. Can anyone provide some information? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:42:39 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: double negatives Liudmila Kostiukevich writes: In Russian two negatives can be used without making meaning of the sentence positive. Moreover, the use of two negetives are very often and they even strenghten the negation. I ain't got no doubts about the truth of this, but it is also true of most varieties of English--though for a couple of centuries many "educated" people have pretended that it is not. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:42:57 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Dear Ms. Flannigan, True. Language is not math; however, it is logical. May I make reference to computational linguistics, and in particular to a journal article entitled "Translating Spanisn to Logic Through Logic." Dave Pass Can we perhaps say that language can be logical rather than asserting that it is logical? The double negative making an affirmative is something we learn in school. It is not unlike other things we learn there: more honored in the breach etc. etc. When I say "ain't got no" I mean that I damn well don't have any; logic be hanged. As for mathematics and language, I've always liked Bloomfield's statement in "Linguistics and Science" (or was it the other way around): "mathematics is the best we can do with language." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 15:55:33 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? DL writes: ... words ... in the final analysis are merely oscillations of molecules in a sound medium or marks on flattish surfaces Another way of looking at it (which I prefer) is that "in the final analysis" words are mental representations in the minds of speakers of a language--representations that link sound, grammar, and meaning. Why emphasize phonologgy/orthography and ignore morphology, syntax, and meaning? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:08:48 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? How about Harrison Ford's "He's good, he's very very good" (_Raiders of the Lost Ark_, obviously). Don't we all use such reiteration for emphasis? Not as memorably, perhaps.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:29:50 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Using computational linguistics logic to translate Spanish or any other language is to apply a secondary system to a primary (nonlogical, in the syllogistic sense) one--perhaps a worthwhile endeavor. But we can't make the primary system over to fit our computer "logic"; the language is what it is--no one can't never turn no natural language into no artificial one nohow. (BTW, that's six negatives; by mathematical logic I guess the meaning is therefore positive: 2 neg. = pos., 3 neg.=neg., 4 neg.=pos.,... Labov demonstrated 30 years ago that Black English speakers' triple and quadruple negatives still meant negative, and so do my six.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:15:35 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: stay and live A more likely, and older, origin of "stay"="live" is the use of 'stay' as a progressive marker in English-based creoles, as in "He stay walk"=He is/was walking," "He bin stay walk"=He had been walking," etc. The transfer of the English sense of continuousness first to creole verb aspect and later back again to the single lexical item meaning continuous residence is well motivated. This assumes at least a partial creole influence on American Black English, of course. On 'cop': I always heard it came from "civilian on patrol" (Brit., something like a neighborhood crime watch?). Is this completely apocryphal? To assume 'cop' comes from 'catch' seems farfetched; but I suppose we should check our Old and Middle English dictionaries. On "cop a plea": As I recall, Roger Abrahams traced this in the 70s to Black English street plea-bargaining, but I haven't got my citation handy. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:00:41 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Yet another test what IS a filtering system anyway? A filter is basically a program that accepts, rejects, reroutes, etc. mail messages. The program essentially looks for key words or phrases in the mail message and then follows the instructions as to what to do with the message. Email addresses and the wording of error messages are examples of the types of key words or phrases. Jeutonne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:19:30 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Dear Ms. Flannigan, I still beg to differ. You say that "language is language." Is this to indicate that you believe it to be unchanging. I should hope not. Neither am I meaning to imply that logic and language are in any way equivilant. Indeed logic is developed through language but yet language is also developed through logic. The two are quite inextricable. Are you aware of Semiotics? This is the study of signs. Words are signs that describe ideas. Ideas describe reality. So, any word can be described using an axiom of formal logic called "hypothetical syllogism": if P then Q/if Q then R/therefore R. This does not say that "logic is language" or that we should adopt logic as our language. It simply says that -- because language can be described by logic -- language is logical. Likewise, because logic can be described by language, logic is linguistic. The two are very much intermeshed. That is inarguable, and that is all I meant to imply. Dave Pass ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:23:53 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Mr. Pass, of course I don't believe language is unchanging--I'm a linguist! BTW, I also teach semiotics; I even read Saussure and Peirce. Beverly Flanigan (one 'n') Associate Professor, Linguistics Ohio University Athens, OH 45701 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:55:49 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: At 11:39 AM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). Actually, the term _First World War_ appears at least as early as 1920. In that year, Charles a Court Repington published a book entitled _The First World War, 1914-1918_. Well, I should know by this point never to rely on what a historian says about language-usage -- they're historians "rerum," not historians "verborum" aka etymologists.... But who knew there'd be a second in 1920, besides maybe John Maynard Keynes in his _Economic Consequences of the Peace_ (1919)? I wonder what CaCR's insight/agenda/etc. was in assigning an ordinal in 1920? Do you know off the top of your head from having seen the cite? Seems like titling the book that in 1919 would be a pretty provocative thing to do. Maybe the pessimistic aspect of postwar mood or Zeitgeist was at work (cf. the huge success of Spengler's _Untergang des Abendlandes_/_Decline of the West_ in about 1919-20 right after the book appeared). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Has it not occurred to anyone to read the book title _First World War_as "First Ever World War" in other words "This book is about the first world war that has ever occurred"? That reading seems more likely to me than any reading ascribing prescience to the author. Ambiguity is a characteristic of language. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:41:42 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Is "quit, quit now" a catchphrase? I think Bevery's on the right track. I bet it comes from a movie, although it is a common structure. I have small collection of English throwaway phrases from non-English speaking countries and the biggest sources are movies and music, in that order. There's a scene in Die Hard where a public utility worker is told by the FBI to shut off a certain part of the power grid. The worker says to someone on the other end of the phone, "Shut it down. Shut it down now!" In Independence Day, that derivative masterpiece and the answer to every action fan who has ever said "Why didn't they...?", there is a scene where Bill Pulliam says something like, "Nuke 'em. Nuke 'em all." -- Footnote, tangent, what-have-you: A good Patton-like speeche is ruined in the movie Independence Day and it seems like I'm always flipping past HBO when the scene is showing. A hodge-podge (or hotch-potch, depending which side of the road you drive on) of volunteer pilots is preparing to take flight and attack the invading aliens in the Nevada desert. Bill Pulliam, as President Whitmore, gives the off-to-battle speech: Good morning. In less than an hour, aircraft from here will join others from around the world, and you will be launching the largest aerial battle in the history of mankind. "Mankind"... that word should have a new meaning for all of us today. We can't be consumed by our petty differences anymore. We will be united in our common interest. Perhaps it's fate that today is the Fourth of July, and you will once again be fighting for our freedom. Not from tyranny, oppression, or persecution, but from annihilation. We're fighting for our right to live, to exist. And should we win the day, the Fourth of July will no longer be known as an American holiday, but as the day when the world declared in one voice, "We will not go quietly into the night,we will not vanish without a fight... We're going to live on! We're going to survive! Today, we celebrate our Independence Day!" You know what urks me? It's that very last word. It sounds repetitive, redundant, incongruous, superfluous, etc. If you get a chance, look for the scene. It's a little more than three-quarters of the way through the movie. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:17:30 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War At 04:55 PM 11/15/97 -0600, you (creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crown.NET) wrote: Has it not occurred to anyone to read the book title _First World War_as "First Ever World War" in other words "This book is about the first world war that has ever occurred"? That reading seems more likely to me than any reading ascribing prescience to the author. Ambiguity is a characteristic of language. That's a great thought actually -- it's just that I was taking the earlier poster's word for it that the 1919 phrase "First World War" meant what we usually mean by it -- "the First in contrast to a Second World War." If one were constructing a dictionary entry for the phrase "First World War," would "the first world war ever" and "the First World War in contrast to the Second" maybe be two non-identical meanings, depending on how carefully one was distinguishing shades of meaning? See the OED2 entry for "first a.," meaning 1 (e.g., 1a and 1d) which is earliest in time *without necessarily any successors*, vs. meaning 2 (esp. 2a), which is first *in a sequence*. If the 1919 cite proferred earlier has the first meaning, what would be the earliest cite with the second meaning? I think this actually brings up a general problem about "earliest citations" that I've thought about for awhile -- namely, there is a difference between (a) the first time a world or phrase is ever used, and (b) the first time it is used in a way that leads directly and clearly to the precise sense one is investigating. Didn't I see a cite recently of "politically correct" from the 18th cent? That's highly interesting, but has little or actually maybe nothing whatsoever directly to do with the emergence of the phrase in the sense(s) familiar in the later 20th cent.... If you're looking for a genuine first cite for the latter, you have to look not just for the earliest attested collocation of the two words in question, but for their use, in context, in a sense that is either identical with or directly related to the meaning of the phrase as a later-20th cent. formula, which after all is what one is presumably investigating. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 21:12:05 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) David Pass, Of course, stating that "language is language" does not claim that language is unchanging. I can['t imagine where you got that idea from the messages that were posted. We certainly have problems in formal linguistics in describing semantics. Semiotics has problems also. But a formal syllogism has even more difficulty in explaining how people express meaning (as influenced by world view, age, gender, etc.). The double negatives with which this discussion started illustrate the point. To explain double negatives, you have to take into account historical change, social attitudes (because for some reason they went out of fashion), situation (when it is all right to use double negatives and when not), that is, when and how speakers and writers vary in their use of a given construction. I think it was Sapir who wrote that "all grammars leak." It is more appropriate to think of language as systematic. Whether or not a statement is logical is a judgment that is made after the statement is made rather than some kind of organizing principle or basic aspect of language. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 03:13:04 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell slangman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: Cop My work on "cop" is part of a longer treatment of four slang terms for police - cop, dick, fuzz, and pig - in "The Slang of Sin" (shameless plug) to be published by Merriam-Webster in the late summer of 1998. Much of my work on "cop" is drawn from the Tamony archives and the rest from Merriam-Webster's citation and etymology card files. "Cop" as a verb meaning "to arrest" is found at least as early as 1844. "Copper" as a noun for "policeman" is found in 1846, and "cop" as a noun not until 1859. John Camden Hotten (1859) surmised that a "copper" was one who "cops" or arrests, and that "cop" as a verb was probably derived from the Latin "capere", to seize or taking something. Farmer and Henley (1891) took the theory a step further, pointing out the Gypsy Romani "kap" or "cop" (to take), the Scotch "kep", the Gallic "caepen", and the Hebrew "cop" (a hand, used to refer to snatching something. Leaving aside the probable true origins of "cop", the folk etymologies abound. Theories include: -John C. Haines, chief of police in Chicago in the 1850's, was well known as a speculator in copper - hence copper. -Police badges were made of copper. -Police wore copper toes on their shoes. -Police wore large copper stars on their uniforms. -Police wore helmets, often made of copper, to protect them from debris thrown from windows and rooftops. -The buttons on police uniforms were made of copper. -English police signed their reports by named, followed by "Constable On Patrol", which was shortened to "COP." Variations include "Constabulary of Police" or "Custodian of the Peace." -There was a chief of police somewhere sometime named Copp. -The term comes from copperstick, archaic slang for a policeman's truncheon. And so on. I'd welcome any additions to the list, with citations. The most interesting discovery in my work on "cop" was the passionate campaign waged by J. Edgar Hoover and the police chiefs of the nation in 1956-1958 to eradicate popular use of the term "cop", which Hoover felt showed disrespect for police, whom he thought should be referred to as "law enforcement officers." Who says the Left invented PC language? Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:25:46 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) In a message dated 97-11-15 21:37:01 EST, you write: Of course, stating that "language is language" does not claim that language is unchanging. I can['t imagine where you got that idea from the messages that were posted. The statement may not claim it; however, it implies it. The statement "language is language" implies a continous equivilence. If the implication is as it seems, the language yesterday equals language today which equals language tomorrow; thus, the statement seems to imply that language is unchanging. To explain double negatives, you have to take into account historical change, social attitudes (because for some reason they went out of fashion), situation (when it is all right to use double negatives and when not), that is, when and how speakers and writers vary in their use of a given construction. I think it was Sapir who wrote that "all grammars leak." How ethnographic of you! You are quite correct. Unfortunately, if you are insinuating that I have somehow implied that logic should be used to explain the origin of double negatives in the English language, you are quite wrong in doing so. Once again (and I hope for the penultimate time) I was only trying to imply that grammar and formal logic are connected and therfore must share some traits. It is more appropriate to think of language as systematic. Whether or not a statement is logical is a judgment that is made after the statement is made rather than some kind of organizing principle or basic aspect of language. How could we be understood if we did not speak using a framework of logic. Logic is the mold into which we pour our molten ideas -- ideas which cool to form cast iron speech. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:47:14 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Enough! On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David W. Pass wrote: Of course, stating that "language is language" does not claim that language is unchanging. I can['t imagine where you got that idea from the messages that were posted. The statement may not claim it; however, it implies it. The statement "language is language" implies a continous equivilence. If the implication is as it seems, the language yesterday equals language today which equals language tomorrow; thus, the statement seems to imply that language is unchanging. I can no longer remain silent. David Pass's statement above is one of the silliest statements I have ever seen about language. To say that "language is language" implies that language has inherent characteristics qua language that remain true -- it does not imply anything whatsoever about language being static. It seems to be that only someone who does not know what language is would read an implication of stasis into the statement. Let's get back to talking about language, okay? Bethany But I just noticed that David apparently plans to post again, so perhaps I'll be restating this soon; he concluded: Once again (and I hope for the penultimate time) I was only ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:59:07 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Update on Gibbs High School Rednecks Several days ago I posted about a T-shirt created by sophomores at Gibbs High School. Sometime after the discussion began, I asked it would make any difference to anybody what the racial/ethnic composition of the class was. I received no response to that query. Apparently it does not make any difference. Here is an update on what the sophomores think. Several of them (class officers and others) sent a ltter to the editor of the local newspaper; it was published on Nov. 6. Here are relevant excerpts: ----- No one was more surprised than we sophomores were when we read the article in the paper that others accused us of being racist. None of us had a clue that our T-shirts would be interpreted that way. The shirts were merely to promote class spirit during spirit week; no profit was made. The decision of the T-shirt design was open to every sophomore's input. Countless meetings were held to decide on shirt and float designs and to prepare for spirit week competition. Daily anouncements were made over the intercom inviting any sophomores to the meetings. No one at any of the meetings raised an issue about our theme or the designs. If any concern had been raised, we would have gladly discussed it and made necessary changes. ----- Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:02:18 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Enough! (this version is minus the typos) My apologies for the typos in the previous version of this post -- it should have read: On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, David W. Pass wrote: Of course, stating that "language is language" does not claim that language is unchanging. I can['t imagine where you got that idea from the messages that were posted. The statement may not claim it; however, it implies it. The statement "language is language" implies a continous equivilence. If the implication is as it seems, the language yesterday equals language today which equals language tomorrow; thus, the statement seems to imply that language is unchanging. I can no longer remain silent. David Pass's statement above is one of the silliest statements I have ever seen about language. To say that "language is language" implies that language has inherent characteristics qua language that remain true -- it does not imply anything whatsoever about language being static. It seems to me that only someone who does not know what language is would read an implication of stasis into the statement. Let's get back to talking about language, okay? Bethany But I just noticed that David apparently plans to post again, so perhaps I'll be restating this soon; he concluded: Once again (and I hope for the penultimate time) I was only ... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:23:47 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Ideas describe reality. ideas / reality Which is the chicken? Which the egg? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:14:43 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? DL writes: ... words ... in the final analysis are merely oscillations of molecules in a sound medium or marks on flattish surfaces RB writes Another way of looking at it (which I prefer) is that "in the final analysis" words are mental representations in the minds of speakers of a language--representations that link sound, grammar, and meaning. Why emphasize phonologgy/orthography and ignore morphology, syntax, and meaning? If there is no mind available to process the sound waves, what exists is what I referred to. You're quite right, of course. I was intentionally taking an extreme view. What if a lip-reading hearing-impaired or non-hearing person processes the words that someone has said? And what if a non-hearing person constructs words to be able to write down the content of information received through signing? And there are many other what-if (im)ponderables. In an oral interchange (or even written interchange) what is the locus of 'the' or 'mountain' or 'say' as a word? It is likely that somewhat or slightly different neural complexes "light up" in the brains of producers and receivers as words are "interchanged," so where does that leave us? Communing with angels on the head of a pin? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:18:35 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Using computational linguistics logic to translate Spanish or any other language is to apply a secondary system to a primary (nonlogical, in the syllogistic sense) one--perhaps a worthwhile endeavor. But we can't make the primary system over to fit our computer "logic"; the language is what it is--no one can't never turn no natural language into no artificial one nohow. (BTW, that's six negatives; by mathematical logic I guess the meaning is therefore positive: 2 neg. = pos., 3 neg.=neg., 4 neg.=pos.,... Labov demonstrated 30 years ago that Black English speakers' triple and quadruple negatives still meant negative, and so do my six.) In the plenary session at the Mid-America Lingusitics Conference two weeks ago, James McCawley demonstrated that words and logical operators do not work exactly alike. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Nov 1997 to 15 Nov 1997 ************************************************ 9. Not a comment not about multiple negation in English Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:00:05 -0500 From: Kusujiro Miyoshi kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP Subject: Double Negatives From: Fumiaki Ushio, Tokyo (kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp) It might be of some help to remember the remarks by Robert Lowth. He was a grammarian in the eighteenth century, that is, 'the age of reason,' and I believe he was the first who said in a decisive manner that double negatives were affirmative. In the period of OE, as well as in that of ME, it was custom for the people that double negatives, or I'd say even triple negatives, just intensified negation, if I remember correctly. I believe double negatives gradually came to be accepted as affirmative between 1500 to 1650. Regards. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 06:38:03 -0500 From: "David W. Pass" Beatfarm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) In a message dated 97-11-16 00:21:30 EST, you write: Which is the chicken? Which the egg? Mr. Lance, Your question is very astute. It is the question, "Did cognition predicate language, or language, cognition?" It would seem that is a question that psycholinguists and philosophers have been trying to tackle for a few years now, and it is still a contaversy. Dave ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 07:08:55 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Origin of "How" Tom Dalzell is writing a book on "sin words," and I owe him words on drinking, gambling, drugs, horseracing, sex, and more. The following term is not in the RHHDAS H-O and can be considered with "Here's Looking at You," which I posted about a month ago. This is from the Long Branch (NJ) Record, 19 January 1900, pg. 11, col. 4: ORIGIN OF "HOW" Why It Came to be Used in Connection with Drinking. They were all sitting around a table in the Gibson House cafe, Farny and a few other genial spirits, says a Cincinnati Enquirer man. Some one ordered a drink, and when it came and everyone was about to raise his glass Farny said "How!" It is an expression that is heard in a cafe hundreds of times a day, and yet few people know its origin. Seated in the crowd at the table in the Gibson House was an army officer, and someone said: "Where in the world did this expression 'how' come from?" Then the army officer laughed, and said: "Draw close my children, and I will tell you." And he did. "'How' is an expression used by every man when he drinks, but it had its beginning in a joke. Years ago, when the army was engaged in driving the red man further and further towards the setting sun, the officers had many experiences with the Indians, many pow-wows and meetings were held, and at those assembled many Indians could speak but a few words of English. Army officers are proverbially hospitable, and at these pow-wows they always produced a bottle and asked the chiefs to drink. In those days the officers said to the chiefs: 'I drink to your good health.' The chiefs, who knew but a few words of English, always replied ' How.' The thing started as a joke, but every army officer fell into the habit of saying 'How,' and now it is recognized as the proper thing to say, when drinking, particularly when doing so with the sons of Mars." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:56:00 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War II Immediately after the World War, as Fred Shapiro has shown, there were thoughts of World War II. However, when that war came about, people still began searching for names. This, with no onomastic help from fight promoter Don King (subject of last night's HBO documentary ONLY IN AMERICA, for those who didn't understand my posting), is from the Scholastic magazine, May 25-30, 1942, pg. 5, col. 2: Name for the War Thousands of students have sent in names for the war. We extend congratulations to all of you for your originality and resourcefulness. The best of these names are being forwarded to President Roosevelt, with names of students who sent them. _War for Freedom_ won the most votes from _Scholastic_ readers. (Ugh!--ed.) Second in popularity was _War for Democracy_ (Ugh! Ugh!, or double ugh--ed.), with _Fight for Freedom_ (Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!--ed.) coming third. Other names most frequently mentioned were, in the following order: _War of the Nations_, _Allied-Axis War_, _Liberty War_, _Victory War_, _War Against the Axis_, _War for Peace_, _Machine War_ (Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!--ed.), and _The People's War_ (Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh! Ugh!--ed.). ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:12:29 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "O. K." again; "Missoury" again O. K. Just a few new items. Allan Metcalf said this was new to him. It's from the Chicago Daily Tribune, "A LINE O' TYPE OR TWO," part 1, pg. 12, col. 3, 1 June 1957: Sir: Here is the truth about O. K. In Boston about 1810 there was a baker named Otto Kimmel. He was very proud of his vanilla cookies, and the best ones he would ship down the Atlantic coast. These were stamped with his initials. Hence the term O. K. for anything that is perfect. Frank Bains This is from the Hampden Federalist (Mass.), 30 November 1815, pg. 3, col. 1: (...) I am mistaken, or many shops will ere long, exhibit to their customers the welcome sight of O. P. _old prices_. (...) I don't know if Allan has WWII's "Okay Joe," but the February 2-7, 1942 Scholastic advertises that "'OKAY' JOE JENKINS HAS WHAT IT TAKES!" and "'OKAY' JOE READS (various columns) IN _SCHOLASTIC_." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MISSOURY Donald Lance has probably collected these, but various writers avoided the problem altogether by using the spelling Mizzoury instead of Missouri. In the Long Branch (NJ) Record of 6 July 1900, pg. 2, cols. 2-3, is a story taken from the Home Journal (NY) called "Missoury Heleny," by Juliette M. Babbitt. She probably meant to say Mizzoury. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:33:05 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: VETERANS DAY SPECIAL: World War Greg Downing and Fred Shapiro write respectively, In 1919 they were innocent enough not to realize they would need to number them (that's not an original comment from me; I read or heard it somewhere). Also note that the OED has a citation for "World War No. 2" dated 1919. There is, clearly, a difference between "the First World War" and "World War I" (kings and popes tend not to call themselves Charles/Pius I either), but on the latter point, I seem to recall mentions of World War III (vs. the Russians, of course) being bandied about from the late 1940s and certainly the early 1950s. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:52:10 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Language and Thought (Was Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?)) At 06:38 AM 11/16/97 -0500, you wrote: In a message dated 97-11-16 00:21:30 EST, you write: Which is the chicken? Which the egg? Mr. Lance, Your question is very astute. It is the question, "Did cognition predicate language, or language, cognition?" It would seem that is a question that psycholinguists and philosophers have been trying to tackle for a few years now, and it is still a contaversy. Dave [Pass] We are not exactly the first to worry about this -- a major issue at the heart of the whole history of modern philosophy of language (since the 17th cent.) has been the complicated relationship between these two things, from at least as early as Locke, and then the counterattack in the opening section of Berkeley's _Treatise Concerning the Principles of Human Knowledge_, where B. argues (quite counterintuitively for the book's original 18th-cent audience) that words created thought by giving people conceptual tools to work with, whereas before lang. they only had impressions that popped like bubbles as the mind went on to other things. See also the opening overview in Hans Aarsleff's _From Locke to Saussure_ (1982). For my own work in later-19C theories of language, I've been looking recently at the hugely popular Max M"uller's work, especially his late 2-vol work on _The Science of Thought_ (1887), which though it is admittedly popularizing in some ways and rather fuzzy in its thinking, lays out Max M"uller's (and some contemporaries') neokantian theory of the origin of language. They see language as arising from instinctual vocalizations made when early people engaged in certain actions. This _clamor concomitans_ supposedly became associatively connected with people's conceptualiztions of the accompanying actions, thus generating words with meanings. Thus, a sound instinctively made while digging became the verb "dig," etc.... Of course there are piles and piles of problems inherent in such pre-20th-cent theories, but the basic idea -- that language and thought helped each other to develop, rather than a straight-out "one caused the other" analysis -- is generally valid I suspect, and continues to be the case as thoughts develop words and words develop thought in visible language-change at present. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:44:01 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Norman Roberts wrote: Dear Ms. Flannigan, True. Language is not math; however, it is logical. May I make reference to computational linguistics, and in particular to a journal article entitled "Translating Spanisn to Logic Through Logic." Dave Pass Can we perhaps say that language can be logical rather than asserting that it is logical? Many of the recent messages in this thread have evoked "logic," and defenders of the double negative seem generally to be arguing that language can use them because it doesn't have to be logical. Here's another approach. Who says that double negatives are illogical in the first place? Lowth assumed they were illogical because he saw negativity in purely mathematical terms as canceling each other out. But if you recognize that, in terms of the logic of language (not its illogic), negativity is additive, then it becomes perfectly logical to make something more negative by piling on the negative words. In fact, it is Lowth and his descendants who are being illogical according to their own assumptions, for if double negatives make a positive, then triple negatives make a negative, quadruple make a positive, quintuple make a negative again, and on and on. When a childhood schoolmate of a friend of mine said "I am not neither no wet noodle," she was being perfectly grammatical according to Lowth's "logic," but grammarians who think they're rigorously applying Lowth's misguided prescriptivism would tell that child she was ungrammatical. Alan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:40:22 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Double Negatives It might be of some help to remember the remarks by Robert Lowth. if I remember correctly. I believe double negatives gradually came to be accepted as affirmative between 1500 to 1650. Yes, we should remember others' mistakes as well as their wisdom. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:16:00 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "O. K." again; "Missoury" again MISSOURY Donald Lance has probably collected these, but various writers avoided the problem altogether by using the spelling Mizzoury instead of Missouri. In the Long Branch (NJ) Record of 6 July 1900, pg. 2, cols. 2-3, is a story taken from the Home Journal (NY) called "Missoury Heleny," by Juliette M. Babbitt. She probably meant to say Mizzoury. Thanks, Barry. No, I haven't been searching print sources. No time for that with everything else I do. So if you have a handy list I wouldn't mind your sending it to me privately or ads-ly A curious thing about -ss- / -zz- is that many people never notice the z-pronunciation for the ss-spelling. Very early in this century a scholar wrote an article (Ole Heimer won't let me remember which at the moment) pointing out that the z-pronunciation follows Verner's Law regarding stress and the pronunciation of -s-, as we hear also in 'dessert' and some other words. Because it follows a "live" Germanic rule, many people don't notice that the z-pronunciation violates the French pronunciation rule that Barry Popik has assumed to rule in this case (poison vs poisson). Around the turn of the century, Missouri newspaper articles and editorials were making noises in support of the French-rule pronunciation of the consonant, but local usage has hissed them down. A few people do say the name with the s-pronunciation. Some say the state is Misery. Allen Walker Read cited a number of these newspapers in his 1935 article in American Speech. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:22:03 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Language and Logic The recent discussion about language being logical has centered on the double negatives, but there is much additional material that is relevant here. Just a few examples: 1. English has the odd construction "many a," e.g. "Many a student will flunk physics." Is this not illogical? (plural + "a") 2. Another odd construction: "time and again." If language is always logical, how does one link "time" (a noun) with "again" (an adverb)? What about about "time and time again? 3. Why is "He took sick" permissible but not "He took ill"? 4. If it is logical to put the direct object in the accusative case in German, why does German have about 50 verbs that take a direct object in the dative? E.g. Er sieht mich (He sees me; accusative case) but Er hilft mir (He helps me; dative case). --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 18:14:30 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Not a comment not about multiple negation in English Dennis R. Preston wrote: Beverly, I agree that double (or multiple) negation seldom follows simple math rules in English, but I wonder about the emphatic function you assign it. It seems to me that in most varieties of English which regularly employ it, multiple negation does not emphasize the negation at all. It is simply an obligatory attachment of a negator to the AUX and to every indefinite of the clause (and in some varieties, other clauses). For example, Didn't nobody never mess with us kids from New Albany. is not an 'emphatic' form of Nobody ever messed with us kids from New Albany. It is simply the 'normal' assignment of negation (with some accomnying adjustments, AUX-fronting, for example) in that variety. If you wanted emphatic qualities for that string, stress would do the trick, e.g., Didn't NObody never... or Didn't nobody NEver.. This is an interesting point. The usage sounds more emphatic to me, but I don't know that it would to the speaker. Maybe it just sounds more emphatic (whether in "nonstandard" modern English or in Chaucer) to those of us trained not to use multiple negatives at all by a tradition of prescriptivism. In addition, there are standard double negatives that neither negate each other nor emphasize each other but imply a nuance or gray area between positive and negative, as in, "he is not unlike his father." This is not the same as "he is like his father" (despite George Orwell's protestations) and is a subtlety of language that would be lost by strict Lowthian principles. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:54:25 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Posts from non-professionals I have just been informed that many recent posts are from students, not professionals. In future, I will try to refrain from posting evaluative comments about remarks from posters whom I do not know personally or professionally. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:07:52 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "I Would/Had Rather Be Right Than Be President" I was cleaning out my files today for sin words when I found this. This changes American history--a lot! Bartlett's Familiar Quotations has "I would rather be right than be President" (here it's "I would") by Henry Clay, _Speech in the Senate_, 1850. The American Heritage Dictionary of American Quotations has "I had rather be right than be president" (here it's "I had") by Henry Clay, speech, U. S. Senate, 1850. This is from The State Gazette (Trenton, NJ), 22 March 1839, pg. 3, col. 2: HENRY CLAY Our much respected contemporary, the Newark Daily, publishes in juxta position with the Address of the Whigs of the legislature, Col. Preston's remarks in Philadelphia, in favor of the nomination of Henry Clay. The Address advised the Whigs to forbear "attempts to press forward particular candidates"; but our cotemporary (sic) seems to suppose that he is not disregarding wishes of the authors of the address in publishing articles in favor of Clay. We suspect he judges correctly. We publish below, the same article; and for the very reason that it _does_ press the claims of a particular candidate. The Whigs cannot settle so important a question, without discussion, and through the machinery of a convention. "Collar-men" only can be managed in that way. (Anyone have "collar-men"?--ed.) Col. Preston exhibits Mr. Clay's character in a very pleasing light. Whatever we may think of some of his opinions, we cannot but feel the liveliest admiration for the man who "would rather be _right_ than be President." And although we have entertained the opinion that his nomination would not be the best for the Whigs in this state, yet that is no reason why we should not rejoice to publish his virtues, and unite cordially in his cause if the _Whigs of the Union_ make him their candidate. (...)(long article and speech--ed.) I have heard him utter, said Mr. Preston, in his closet, sentiments which, had they fallen from the lips of one of the ancients of Greece or Rome, would have been repeated with admiration to the present day. On one occasion said Mr. P., he did me the honor to send for and consult with me. It was in reference to a step he was about to take, and which will, perhaps, come to your minds without more direct allusions. After stating what he proposed, I suggested whether there would not be danger in it--whether such a course would not injure his own prospects, as well as those of the Whig party in general. His reply was, "I did not send for you to ask what might be the effects of the proposed movement on my _prospects_, but whether it was _right_; I HAD RATHER BE RIGHT THAN BE PRESIDENT." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:12:29 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals Yes, the quality of mercy is not strained. The carrot-juice is strained, though. As long as we're on dialect phrases: Let's all make sure to drop our daily chill pill. (I'm going to go make a note to that effect on my calendar right now.) Heartfelt thanks to all for responses on "Quit. Quit now," which I am going to forward to my correspondent, lessn ah gits air more from yall.(Yes, I know that's a dialectal jumble....) Thanks again, all. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:25:36 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "I Would/Had Rather Be Right Than Be President" At 08:07 PM 11/16/97 -0500, you (Barry Popik) wrote: This is from The State Gazette (Trenton, NJ), 22 March 1839, pg. 3, col. 2: HENRY CLAY His reply was, "I did not send for you to ask what might be the effects of the proposed movement on my _prospects_, but whether it was _right_; I HAD RATHER BE RIGHT THAN BE PRESIDENT." Once politicians get a good line, they usually recycle it to the point of driving it into the ground -- especially in the pre-media days where they had an almost completely new fresh audience every time they gave a campaign speech out on the trail. Clay lost in running for US Pres. in 1824 and 1832, and would lose a record-setting third time in 1844. I wouldn't surprise me if you could find it even earlier! -- Maybe 1833 ff., right after the second loss. Now that you mention it, Barry, 1850 seems pretty late for Hank to have been coming up with that line for the first time. If 1850 had been the actual date (six years after his third/final presidential run), it would add a whole new stretch to the term Treppenwitz ("stairs-joke," what you think of on the way out of a building that you should have said while you were there but didn't think of till it was too late). BTW, how do you find all this stuff in uncatalogued newspaper archives? What's the ratio of time expended per interesting item found...? At your leisure of course, and not at the cost of trade secrets. (If this were Dear Abby, I'd have to say "Sign me: Curious in Staten Island") Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:29:19 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals Bethany K. Dumas wrote: I have just been informed that many recent posts are from students, not professionals. In future, I will try to refrain from posting evaluative comments about remarks from posters whom I do not know personally or professionally. Bethany It would be nice, however, if students refrained from insulting professional linguists by saying things like "Have you ever heard of Semiotics?" Sheesh. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:13:26 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals Alan Baragona wrote: It would be nice, however, if students refrained from insulting professional linguists by saying things like "Have you ever heard of Semiotics?" Sheesh. Alan B. I second the "Sheesh". Isn't there a difference between "non-professional" and "un-professional"? (not to mention just plain rude) Ron Butters posted something a while back regarding manners on these mailing lists. When all you (or "one") have to go on is some typed words on a page, it is easier to (mis)interpret them as being rude and vicious. Before one pushes one's "send" button, one needs to consider whether or not what one has written (perhaps in the spirit of lightheartedness) may be misconstrued as being mean as a yard dog. Danny Long P.S. A technical question: Anyone know why the "reply" button on my computer works differently for postings from Alan Baragona than from other people? If I push "reply", the email goes to him rather than the list. For most other posters, the "reply" button starts an email back to the list. I mention this because if this is true for other posters, I (and other people) may have been inadvertantly sending things just to individuals that we thought we were posting to the list. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:40:48 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "I Would/Had Rather Be Right Than Be President" Oops! I'm sorry! SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY has: "I would rather be right than be President." Kentucky Senator Clay made this statement several times to his friends, in a letter in 1839, and in a Senate speech in 1850. Unfortunately, Safire doesn't give a citation. Anyway, my citation is "I had." The American Heritage Dictionary of American Quotations was published several years after Safire's New Political Dictionary, so I turned to Hugh Rawson's book first. I'm truly sorry. However, I'm still confused. It would be nice to get "Right" right! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:45:26 -0500 From: Kusujiro Miyoshi kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP Subject: double negatives The discussion on double negatives is quite interesting for me in that it reminds me the arguments in England in the eighteenth century. This discussion seems to be the one being had between Priestley and Lowth. Just for the reference, we, the Japanese use double or triple negatives in a logical way in general. In that case, however, the speaker has an intention to avoid definite statement. Regards. Kusujiro Miyoshi + Fumiaki Ushio, kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:44:56 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) Norman Roberts writes, The double negative making an affirmative is something we learn in school. It is not unlike other things we learn there: more honored in the breach etc. etc. When I say "ain't got no" I mean that I damn well don't have any; logic be hanged. --thereby (in "not unlike other things...") illustrating the fact that 'double negatives' do indeed sometimes yield an affirmative, and always do and did, even in dialects and languages in which other double negatives don't 'cancel out' but instead agree with each other. As Alan Baragona just noted in this thread, both processes are 'logical' or even 'mathematical'. Here is a 2 1/2 century old recognition of this fact (excerpted here from a paper of mine, "Duplex Negatio Affirmat: The Economy of Logical Double Negation", in the Chicago Linguistic Society Parasession on Negation (1991), fn. 3): ------------------------------------------- Even during the golden age of prescriptivism, while the standard line is that of Lowth (whose grammar appeared in 49 editions), parroted by (among dozens of others) Ussher (1793: 48: "Two negatives instead of one are very improper; Ex. I can not eat none, ought to be, I can eat none, or I can not eat any"), it would occasionally be acknowledged that "in very animated speeches, where a man were delivering himself with vehemence and heat," certain double negations, by virtue of their "more forcible sound," "might perhaps be used not with an ill grace[!]" (Baker 1779: 59). Martin (1748: 93) provides a cogent mathematical gloss on the two varieties of double negation: The two negatives as used by the Saxons and French must be understood by way of apposition...which way of speaking is still in use among us; and in this case the two negatives answer to the addition of two negative quantities in Algebra, the sum of which is negative. But our ordinary use of two negatives (in which the force of the first is much more than merely destroyed by the latter) corresponds to the multiplication of two negative quantities..., the product of which is always affirmative. References: Baker, R. (1770) Remarks on the English Language, 2d edition. London: John Bell. Lowth, (Bishop) R. (1762) A Short Introduction to English Grammar. London: J. Hughs. Martin, B. (1748) Institutions of Language. Facsimile reprint: Menston, Eng.: The Scolar Press, 1970. Ussher, G. N. (1793) The Elements of English Grammar, 3d edition improved. Glocester: R. Raikes. ----------------------------------- As to whether multiple negations (in language, as opposed to algebra) really DO strengthen or reinforce each other in the relevant dialects/languages, my sense is that the phenomenon is basically akin to other sorts of concord. We wouldn't expect singular (or plural) agreement on a verb to strengthen or reinforce the singularity (or plurality) of the subject, nor the masculine/feminine/neuter form of an article to reinforce the gender of the head noun with which they agree, and the same is generally true of negative concord. This is not to say that negative sentences may not (!) have other devices to strengthen the negative force; Bolinger has written insightfully on the differences between "not...any" and "no" in the standard dialect (I don't want any of that vs. I want none of that), but this distinction is independent of the negative concord question. Larry (P.S. Incidentally, the postings here on langauge vs. logic seem to assume there's just one monolithic "logic", with which language may or may not agree. But there are as many logics as there languages, and their properties differ from each other in interesting ways. The issue isn't really language vs. logic, but what the mapping rules are between grammar (morphosyntax) and semantics. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:32:00 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: double negatives and other prescriptions On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Kusujiro Miyoshi wrote: The discussion on double negatives is quite interesting for me in that it reminds me the arguments in England in the eighteenth century. This discussion seems to be the one being had between Priestley and Lowth. Thanks for mentioning Priestley. He provides a good 18th century contrast to Lowth later prescriptive popularizing grammarians like Lindley Murray. Unfortunately, the Lowthian ideas are the ones that still appear in school grammars. 18th century grammarians like Lowth proclaimed a whole series of prescriptive statements about English. I remember that Albert Baugh's history of the language book has/had an interesting list of these. Offhand, I remember different than/different from in the list. The 18th century grammarians were also prescriptively important in imposing generic "he" as "correct." Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 1997 to 16 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:00:16 -0500 There are 15 messages totalling 464 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Regionalisms", ADS in today's NY Times 2. Double Negatives 3. Posts from non-professionals (2) 4. "Reply to list or sender" query (2) 5. double negatives and other prescriptions 6. one as a pronoun? 7. The full Monty (fwd) 8. Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) (2) 9. subscribe to ADS-L mailing list 10. Welcome Back, Barry! 11. subcategories of people 12. stay and live ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:51:18 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Regionalisms", ADS in today's NY Times This is from the Week in Review Section, The New York Times, 16 November 1997, pg. 7: WORD FOR WORD/ Regionalisms In Plainspoken English, America's Still Whopperjawed Ask any computer expert trying to design workable voice-recognition technology for standard American English: Despite predictions that Americans would all be speaking by now in a bland, homogenized dialect of network TV newscasters, the United States remains a country of stubbornly persistent regional accents, idioms and slang. "Regional differences in pronunciation remain, as do differences based on social class, occupation, ethnic group, gender," says Allan Metcalf, a professor at MacMurray College in Jacksonville, Ill', and the executive director of the American Dialect Society. (Shouldn't that be "executive secretary"? Ah, it's the Times! Allan will be "THE executive director" of the ADS forever!--ed.) "That's because if people have to choose between talking like the TV and talking like their friends, they'll choose their friends (or be laughed at by them.)" Near Philadelphia, Michael Lawrence Ellis III, an amateur linguist fascinated by accents and regionalisms, publishes a series of regional handbooks under the title "Slanguistics," and maintains a popular web site (www.slanguage.com) that collects regional pronunciations and phrases from correspondents all across the country. Here are some recent ones (syllable inflections were not provided). JOE SHARKEY Atlanta Ahm feelin' puny (I don't feel well) Fizzshoe (If I were you...) Mash the button (Press the button) Tick a rat (Make a right turn) Warshin' patter (Laundry detergent) Austin, Tex. You sure clean up nice (You are looking very good today) Baltimore Ball Mer Orals (The local baseball team) Chest Peek (The large bay) (...) Chicago Cheek Ah Ga (Name of city) (...) Dallas All y'all (A collective plural of y'all) (...) Knoxville, Tenn. Air (What 60 minutes equals one of) You-uns (Y'all, Tennessee style) (....) This article brings up several old saws I have with the American Dialect Society and The New York Times. A Michael Ellis of Southwest Missouri State University is an ADS member; this Michael Lawrence Ellis III is not. Why isn't a person like this a member? Are the $35 dues too high? Would he become a member at $20? Has he heard of us? I keep saying--over and over--that 517 members is too small. And I keep saying--over and over--that the ADS needs to treat popular speech, that we need to have an online magazine (maybe called AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH, and maybe with the American Name Society joining in) that would cover movies, television, books, plays, and current news events in a scholarly and reliable way, for consumption by the general public. As for The New York Times, it's notable that they give large space to nonscholarly work (who ever heard of a pronunciation guide without the proper pronunciation symbols?), while ignoring legitimate ADS scholars. When's the last time they picked up on something from American Speech? "If news does not appear in The New York Times, it really hasn't happened."--ADS member William Safire in the same section, page 15, col. 3. Why doesn't this guy write back to an ADS member who writes to him? Do I have to wait six years? Is he happy that it's making me ill? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:08:30 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Double Negatives Lowth indeed wrote "Two Negatives in English destroy one another, or are equivalent to an Affirmative," but he was pre- and- proscribing here, not describing. "It is not the Language, but the Practice that is at fault," as he wrote in the Preface to his Grammar (1762).On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Kusujiro Miyoshi wrote: From: Fumiaki Ushio, Tokyo (kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp) It might be of some help to remember the remarks by Robert Lowth. He was a grammarian in the eighteenth century, that is, 'the age of reason,' and I believe he was the first who said in a decisive manner that double negatives were affirmative. In the period of OE, as well as in that of ME, it was custom for the people that double negatives, or I'd say even triple negatives, just intensified negation, if I remember correctly. I believe double negatives gradually came to be accepted as affirmative between 1500 to 1650. Regards. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:02:26 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals Daniel Long and others: I have the same "reply" question that long asks about below: didn't realize it until I recently sent a reply on the doubl negative discussion which never showed up on the list. I find now that it was accidentallys ent ot an individual. P.S. A technical question: Anyone know why the "reply" button on my computer works differently for postings from Alan Baragona than from other people? If I push "reply", the email goes to him rather than the list. For most other posters, the "reply" button starts an email back to the list. I mention this because if this is true for other posters, I (and other people) may have been inadvertantly sending things just to individuals that we thought we were posting to the list. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 Cheers, Pat Courts ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:18:29 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: "Reply to list or sender" query At 12:13 PM 11/17/97 +0900, you wrote: P.S. A technical question: Anyone know why the "reply" button on my computer works differently for postings from Alan Baragona than from other people? If I push "reply", the email goes to him rather than the list. For most other posters, the "reply" button starts an email back to the list. I mention this because if this is true for other posters, I (and other people) may have been inadvertantly sending things just to individuals that we thought we were posting to the list. On lists where default-reply is to the list (as is the case on ADS-L), some addresses and posts will lead to a reply to sender only for some (to me) unfathomable reason -- you just have to check the address-line before pressing send, and change as needed. Guess what? -- your note just now was almost a reply direct to you, but I checked the address-line before pressing send. This is general good policy in any case, since otherwise one finds oneself (to cite the opposite problem from the one you mention) posting private notes to lists just often enough to be really embarrassing. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:24:29 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals At 09:02 AM 11/17/97 -0500, you wrote: I have the same "reply" question that long asks about below: P.S. A technical question: Anyone know why the "reply" button on my computer works differently for postings from Alan Baragona than from other people? It is a combination of the settings on the list servere header and the individual's mail program. If (1) the individual sets his mailer for replies to come back to himself, and (2) the listserve software is set to allow that, then hitting Reply will send a note directly to the individual. BUT -- if you are concerned about this, most mailers have Reply and Reply to All. If you respond using the latter, it will go to the list. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:21:18 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: double negatives and other prescriptions Jeutonne Brewer writes, On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Kusujiro Miyoshi wrote: The discussion on double negatives is quite interesting for me in that it reminds me the arguments in England in the eighteenth century. This discussion seems to be the one being had between Priestley and Lowth. Thanks for mentioning Priestley. He provides a good 18th century contrast to Lowth later prescriptive popularizing grammarians like Lindley Murray. Unfortunately, the Lowthian ideas are the ones ?that still appear in school grammars. 18th century grammarians like Lowth proclaimed a whole series of prescriptive statements about English. I remember that Albert Baugh's history of the language book has/had an interesting list of these. Offhand, I remember different than/different from in the list. The 18th century grammarians were also prescriptively important in imposing generic "he" as "correct." Baugh is a fine reference, but let's not omit the valuable work of our own Dennis Baron, viz. _Language and Good Taste: Reforming the American Language_ (Yale U. P., 1982), with several chapters on the 18th, 19th, and 20th century prescriptivists and language mavens. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:38:53 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? Donald Lance writes, The people who say "I ain't got none" and mean that 'none' is exactly what they have are merely augmenting the negation, not negating the negation. Does any native speaker of English ever assume that someone else's "I ain't got none" or "I can't hardly do that any more" or "He won't never come back" is actually a negation of a negative? Depends on the context, including prior discourse and intonation/stress. Even within a negative concord dialect, "I don't want nothing" can correspond either to standard Eng. 'There's nothing I want' [= I don't want anything] or 'It's not the case that I want nothing' [= I don't want nothing], but the latter interpretation only arises if the prior discourse suggests that the speaker DOES want nothing and with the appropriate marked contour. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:23:03 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: The full Monty (fwd) There was a piece by Safire in Sunday's (11/16) New York Times about the expression "the full Monty." Also, does anyone recall the Masterpiece Theatre production a few years ago of "The Politician's Wife", with Juliet Stevenson in the title role and also starring Minnie Driver? The plot line was about a philandering ambitious Tory politician who gets his comeuppance. Anyway, there is a scene in the play where a man dies (the father of the Juliet Stevenson character) and is buried in a very lavish funeral. One of the other characters says something like "Well, they gave him the full monty" which, in the context of the play implied that he was all decked out in his finery. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:56:31 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Reply to list or sender" query one finds oneself (to cite the opposite problem from the one you mention) posting private notes to lists Newcomers to this list may not know that the "Best New Word Coined by an ADS Member" award, if there were one, should go to Natalie Maynor for giving this a name: "e-oops." - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:04:37 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) At 10:44 PM 11/16/97 EST, Larry Horn wrote: (P.S. Incidentally, the postings here on langauge vs. logic seem to assume there's just one monolithic "logic", with which language may or may not agree. But there are as many logics as there languages, and their properties differ from each other in interesting ways. The issue isn't really language vs. logic, but what the mapping rules are between grammar (morphosyntax) and semantics. Exactly, which is why I said earlier that double negatives are not necessarily illogical in any absolute sense at all. I also like your point that "there are as many logics as there [are] languages". And you could add "dialects." My favorite example of that is the principle of concord or agreement. In English, agreement of number between subject/verb and adjective/noun is fundamental to the "logic" of the language. But there's a fine line between agreement and redundancy, and the dialectical usage "five dollar" can be justified on the logical grounds that the extra plural marker on the noun is redundant. And undoubtedly usages that are redundant in English constitute natural agreement in other languages (wish I could think of one off the top of my head--anyone?) Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:12:13 -0500 From: dygetn01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: subscribe to ADS-L mailing list SUBSCRIBE American Dialect Society list Timo Dygert Please let me know how to subscribe to the ADS_L mailing list. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:07:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Welcome Back, Barry! The subject line says it all. -- Mark :-)\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:17:07 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: subcategories of people hi all-- i'm working on a comparison of racial labeling and sexual orientation labeling, in which i'm looking at some hypotheses from the cognitive social psychology tradition on social categorization to see if they can be applied to (and thus supported by) social labeling. anyhow... the thing i'm looking at now is the hypothesis that an ingroup will perceive more differences within itself than the outgroup will perceive in them--and therefore have more words for different 'subtypes' of the group. i have lots of examples from the sexual orientation arena. for example, straight people (the outgroup in this case) have very few words for, say, gay men, and what they do have reflect generalizations, not subtyping (e.g., fag, fairy, homo). but gay men have tons of names for different types of gay men (here's what's on my handout so far): Ingroup labels for subcategories of gay men (see also Stanley 1971, Zeve 1993): queen, etc. (fat), Ivy (Indian) bottom ok, so now i want to make the same point about ingroups/outgroups when it comes to race, instead of sexual orientation, considering African American ingroup terms for other African Americans. all i can think of right now (and find while skimming DARE and _juba to jive_) are color terms (high yella/yeller/yellow/brown, nappyblack, etc.). other than 'uncle tom', which is not exclusively an ingroup term, i can't think of any sort of cultural/political divisions, sexual divisions (words for African American women or men, but not both), occupational divisions, or other "types" (career-driven, sweet old granny, whatever). can any of you help me out? the type of word i'm trying to find would only refer to a subgroup of african americans, so it wouldn't count, say, if i had an AAVE term for a police officer if that word is used for both white and black police officers. i hope i've sufficiently explained what i'm looking for. any words or references would be most gratefully received. also, if you want to give me counter evidence to my hypothesis, i'd like to hear that too. best, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:54:54 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: stay and live In a message dated 11/15/97 2:54:12 PM, you wrote: On 'cop': I always heard it came from "civilian on patrol" (Brit., something like a neighborhood crime watch?). Is this completely apocryphal? To assume 'cop' comes from 'catch' seems farfetched; but I suppose we should check our Old and Middle English dictionaries. On "cop a plea": As I recall, Roger Abrahams traced this in the 70s to Black English street plea-bargaining, but I haven't got my citation handy. Whether apocryphal or not I do like "civilian on patrol." Gives me a much warmer feeling about coppers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:02:22 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Double negatives (was one as a pronoun?) In a message dated 11/16/97 3:38:16 AM, you wrote: Mr. Lance, Your question is very astute. It is the question, "Did cognition predicate language, or language, cognition?" It would seem that is a question that psycholinguists and philosophers have been trying to tackle for a few years now, and it is still a contaversy. Dave Zen Master Dae Seung Sunim has a nice clear answer to the quandary: "Only go straight, don't know." Just this. Monk ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Nov 1997 to 17 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Nov 1997 to 18 Nov 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 231 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fast Racker; "Jazz" Water; Merzouri 2. subcategories of people 3. Merzouri 4. project ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 06:20:00 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fast Racker; "Jazz" Water; Merzouri FAST RACKER Not quite "fast track," but this pun is from the Louisville Daily Courier, 7 January 1859, pg. 1, col. 7: HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE--"Eddy," said a mother, a friend of ours, to her hopeful son, as she was reading to him of Pocahontas in the history of Virginia, "do you know who Pocahontas was?" "Yes, mother," said the lad, whose thoughts were upon the coveted pony, "she was a fast racker!"--Boston Transcript. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "JAZZ" WATER I recently discovered about the "jazz" water of Fez, Morocco. Here's a reposting of what I wrote here last year, from the OTHER Barbary Coast. This is from the San Francisco Chronicle, 9 November 1919, pg. B7, col. 1: BAND LEADER SAYS JAZZ IS PUBLIC DEMAND Ensign Alfred J. Moore Tells Why, Vox Populi Rules in Music World By THOMAS W. BAILY NOAH WEBSTER, delineator of words and pronunciations, failed to mention "jazz" in the early productions of his fertile brain. One or two dictionaries of the less expensive kind contain such a thing, but the majority of them do not. As a result, jazz is considered slang. Most likely "pep" may be classified in a similar manner. However, both words are used to advantage by persons who wish to express ginger and snap. Art Hickman, of the St. Francis orchestra, once said that the word jazz originated some time ago when the San Francisco Seals were training at Boyes Springs. One member of the ball-tossing team commented on a stream of water bubbling from the side of a bank, casting upon it the then unknown word, "jazz" water. Then, as the little old world slowly moved around, one unit of the nine urged a friend: "Come on, George, show some jazz, willya!" Then "jazz" sprang into being. At least, Hickman believes so. It cannot be proven, however, so the argument on that score ends. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MERZOURI This is from The Besom (Univ. of Cal.-Berkeley), 6 November 1876, pg. 2, col. 1: "THE CHAP FROM BARKALEE" A LEGEND OF POKER FLAT, WRITTEN BY A RESIDENT. (...) His clothes wuz new, o' the Frisco cut, His shirt was new an' biled, An' the way he jingled his coin around, The fellers some'at riled. So ole Bill Smith, a Merzouri man, Wot lives way up on the Run, He smiled out loud, an' all the crowd, Woke up to see the fun. (...) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 09:50:57 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: subcategories of people Caryl Phillips writes in his novel The Final Passage on minute gradations of skin pigmentation in the West Indies:" Bradeth, tell me what colour you think your child going come? White, fusty, musty, dusty, tea, coffee, cocoa, light black, black, or dark black?" (Penguin:1985, p. 52). Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Lynne Murphy wrote: hi all-- i'm working on a comparison of racial labeling and sexual orientation labeling, in which i'm looking at some hypotheses from the cognitive social psychology tradition on social categorization to see if they can be applied to (and thus supported by) social labeling. anyhow... the thing i'm looking at now is the hypothesis that an ingroup will perceive more differences within itself than the outgroup will perceive in them--and therefore have more words for different 'subtypes' of the group. i have lots of examples from the sexual orientation arena. for example, straight people (the outgroup in this case) have very few words for, say, gay men, and what they do have reflect generalizations, not subtyping (e.g., fag, fairy, homo). but gay men have tons of names for different types of gay men (here's what's on my handout so far): Ingroup labels for subcategories of gay men (see also Stanley 1971, Zeve 1993): queen, etc. (fat), Ivy (Indian) bottom ok, so now i want to make the same point about ingroups/outgroups when it comes to race, instead of sexual orientation, considering African American ingroup terms for other African Americans. all i can think of right now (and find while skimming DARE and _juba to jive_) are color terms (high yella/yeller/yellow/brown, nappyblack, etc.). other than 'uncle tom', which is not exclusively an ingroup term, i can't think of any sort of cultural/political divisions, sexual divisions (words for African American women or men, but not both), occupational divisions, or other "types" (career-driven, sweet old granny, whatever). can any of you help me out? the type of word i'm trying to find would only refer to a subgroup of african americans, so it wouldn't count, say, if i had an AAVE term for a police officer if that word is used for both white and black police officers. i hope i've sufficiently explained what i'm looking for. any words or references would be most gratefully received. also, if you want to give me counter evidence to my hypothesis, i'd like to hear that too. best, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:00:27 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Merzouri MERZOURI This is from The Besom (Univ. of Cal.-Berkeley), 6 November 1876, pg. 2, col. 1: "THE CHAP FROM BARKALEE" A LEGEND OF POKER FLAT, WRITTEN BY A RESIDENT. (...) His clothes wuz new, o' the Frisco cut, His shirt was new an' biled, An' the way he jingled his coin around, The fellers some'at riled. So ole Bill Smith, a Merzouri man, Wot lives way up on the Run, He smiled out loud, an' all the crowd, Woke up to see the fun. (...) The -ar- in the title of this poem raises an interesting question. Is the poet playing around with British spelling? If so, then the -er- in 'Merzouri' may simply refer to the schwa sound as opposed to an i-sound, as we see in British spellings of the hesitation marker 'er' where Americans would use 'uh'. Just what does 'er' spell? In the 3 August 1850 _Spirit_of_the_Times_, a newspaper in Columbia SC, someone with the pseudonym "Spoondrift" published a yarn about a "Cracker" who brought a load of potatoes and turnips to the open market in "C---" and announced his produce with a bold sign saying "pertaters and ternups." A local doctor made merciless fun of the "Cracker," who left in anger after several hours, not having sold any of his produce. The doctor had sent numerous people to the poor fellow asking if he had any "aiggs" or "eggs." The story ends with the Cracker telling another potential customer, threatening him with a well worn knife, "Pertaters end ternups, Mabin--but don't yer say aiggs, Mabin! Ef yer do, I'll sample yer gizzard!" The puzzle. Not too hard. This was South Carolina, where r-lessness and r-fulness overlapped, If the spelling is accurate, the fellow had the same vowel in the first and last syllables of 'potatoes' and the first syllable of 'turnips' as well as in 'you' and 'your'. So, what was it? Not what present-day literal-minded Americans assume, but a schwa-like sound that the British represent with 'er' and some 19th-century American writers also represented with 'er'. The words that provide the clinching evidence are the two instances of 'you', which I really doubt were pronounced as "spelled." Those of you who are GVS spelling fans, note the doubling of the -g- in 'aiggs' to mark (redundantly) the lengthened and raised vowel. These spellings weren't haphazard. This story is on pp. 99-102 of TALL TALES OF THE SOUTHWEST, edited by Franklin J. Meine (Knopf, 1930). There's a new edition of the book out now, but I don't have it and can't say whether this story is in the new edition. This book also has an article (set in 1848 during the "Mexican War") from MAJOR JONES'S COURTSHIP (New York, 1872), by William T. Thompson, "The Hoosier and the Salt Pile." The Hoosier was a "cattleman from Indiany" on a train between Warrenton and Milledgeville GA. He was on his way to New Orleans seeking a government contract for beef. He is treated as a brash, not well educated, swearing, lout who was generally not well liked by his coachmates. Those of you who are researching this term might be interested in following up this lead. I don't know when Thompson actually wrote the story. This book on "Flush Times in the Old Southwest [Ala, Miss, LA, Ark]" is a valuable resource for dialectologists. Lots of dialect spelling. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:02:05 -0500 From: Jennifer Fugate Lolipop894[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: project Hello! My name is Jennifer Fugate. I am currently doing a project in my Language and Society class. My objective is to show a relationship between a persons educational level and the term the choose when relating to a restroom. I looking for suggestions of terms used in the midwest and any material that would be helpful to my project. Thank You for your time! Jennifer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Nov 1997 to 18 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Nov 1997 to 19 Nov 1997 There are 13 messages totalling 468 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. AOL features Metcalf-Barnhart book 2. Interviewees on the subject of Language and Power? 3. Today's stuff (Black Maria, Rather Be Right) 4. Merzouri (2) 5. comedic (3) 6. /er/ /ar/ (was: Merzouri) (2) 7. "Merzouri" 8. one as a pronoun? 9. "give it your best shot" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:02:36 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: AOL features Metcalf-Barnhart book Here I am, checking AOL news to see if we just engaged in the mother of all world wars. So what do I see on AOL news? "Book Documents 'American' Words." This is from AOL's OnBooks: Literary News and Notes. Book Documents Words as American as Apple Pie By Donald M. Rothenberg of The Associated Press WASHINGTON--It is OK to sit in the bathtub and think highbrow thoughts about potato chips and hot dogs. Nifty, in fact, because these are words that are as American as apple pie. A pair of word historians have collected their choices of "words that have shaped America," choosing one for almost every year since English was first spoken on this side of the Atlantic. When it came to making a choice for a given year, they tried to select the word "that made a difference," said Allan A. Metcalf of MacMurray College in Jacksonville, Ill. They looked for words that reflected "how we look at ourselves as Americans, what our concerns are and what our ideas are," he said. Metcalf and lexicographer David K. Barnhart are co-authors of "America in So Many Words." (...) Hot dog is a play on an old joke that dog meat was used in sausages. The first use of hot dog is traced to the Yale Record in 1895. (....) This may sound funny, but about three months ago--as I wrote on this list--this very same Associated Press did a whole story on the hot dog, and it was completely wrong, and I walked into their offices, and I was told they weren't going to correct anything.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 01:33:29 -0500 From: Eric Baus EMB1210[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Interviewees on the subject of Language and Power? Hi My name is Eric Baus and I'm doing a research project on the ethnography of service based interactions and I'd like to do a short e-mail interview with anyone with an interest in the topic or who has done any relevant research. If you'd like you can describe some ethnographic aspects of the interactions you encounter at your job (how the interaction is affected by where you are, who you are talking to, in what order the exchanges of information occur, is this spoken or written, what are the expectations of behavior, what are the end goals of the interaction etc.) . I'm including teaching under this broad umbrella of service so feel free to comment about the classroom situation if you want. Thanks a lot, I appreciate any and all responses so please write if you feel you have anything to say on the topic, Eric EMB1210[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:05:25 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Today's stuff (Black Maria, Rather Be Right) Greg Downing wants to know what I find in a session? Today's fairly typical. Work was from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m., with a half-hour (unpaid) lunch. Then, I took the subway from the Bronx to NYU. I had a snack, read NYPress, and got to do research at a little before 8 p.m. The library starts to close at 10:45 p.m. There were over ten books on Henry Clay, but the best is the 1991 book by Robert V. Remini. This is from page 527: "I trust the sentiments and opinions are correct," snapped Clay in response. "I HAD RATHER BE RIGHT THAN BE PRESIDENT."(37) Here was the immortal utterance, the classic rejoinder, one that quickly entered the lexicon of American politics and was always to be associated with Clay's name. (37) _Congressional Globe_, 25th Congress, 3d session, p. 167; _National Intelligencer_, March 30, 1839; _Niles' Weekly Register_, March 23, 1839. My citation was from March 22, 1839. That statement (as this) was capitalized, and used "had" rather than "would." I then went downstairs to the microfilm room, which would close in about an hour. I searched a bit in an 1840s newspaper--then had the strange feeling that I'd already read it! Maybe I'd do "Black Maria." David Shulman's second note on this is in American Speech, Summer 1997, pg. 197. The "1936" there is a misprint and should be "1836." Irving Lewis Allen also did an article on "Black Maria" for the October 1997 Comments on Etymology, and this got Shulman furious! I decided to check through a periodical in the American Periodical Series of microfilms called the American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine. Here's what I found that interested me: Sept. 1832, pg. 37--"A flash in the pan--the great trotting match no match at al!" Oct. 1832, pg. 83--"I presume the cats you alluded to, for which Constantinople is said to be so famous, and which you denominated 'key hole cats'..." Nov. 1832, pg. 126--"DINING BY HOOK OR CROOK." Nov. 1832, pg. 134--"We know nothing of the derivation of the word 'Snob;' it is certainly not a classical one, but either that or Tiger is too often applied to a total stranger who ventures to show himself in the 'swell countries,' as they are called." Nov. 1832, pg. 143--"FORESIGHT.--LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP." Dec. 1832, pg. 168--"ON NAMING HORSES." Jan. 1833, pg. 226--"Looker-on." (As opposed to "on-looker.") Jan. 1833, pg. 234--"Let _cocktails_ then faulter, but thoroughbred we, Will stick to the _saddle_ till ended the spree!" (For origin of "cocktail.") Jan. 1833, pg. 238--"...one more drive for the 'big one.'" Feb. 1833, pg. 293--"no go." And then, Dec. 1832, pp. 201-205, "RACING CALENDAR. UNION COURCE (N.Y.) RACES," had this: (...) Black Maria, six years old; by Eclipse. (...) Black Maria, in size and general appearance, is in all respects unlike her rival, as is well known to southern,as well as northern sportsmen. Her colour is indicated by her name; and her great size, strangth and stride, show her a worthy daughter of a noble sire. Indeed, in her the blood of Eclipse and Lady Lightfoot are in no way disgraced, as this race will most fully prove. (...) As for Black Maria, she is literally 'too fast for the speedy, and too strong for the stout.' (....) The copying machine didn't work. I had to switch copiers. And then, my time was up. Perhaps more on Black Maria tomorrow. I'm tired. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:32:43 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Re: Merzouri -er- does not always refer to a schwa like sound in British Englishes. The words _clerk_ and _derby_, eg, are pronounced with modern realisations of [-a(r)-]. From what I understand, "Barkely" "Barcly" (etc), and "Berkely" all spring from a common source, and all pronounced with [-a(r)-]. The poet may have heard an Englishman or Scotsman say "Berkely" with a back vowel, and "transcribed" his impression. Nowadays, Berkely (as in U.C.), is pronounced with a schwa (RP) or an epsilon (Scottish). All the other examples are still -ar-. --Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 08:32:52 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Merzouri On Berkeley v Barclay: a following /r/ tends to lower vowels. In late ME through EmnE /er/ was often lowered to /ar/. Sometimes the lowering was permanent (star,farm), sometimes not(servant,sterling). Occasionally, doublets survive: Berkeley/Barclay, vermin/varmint, person/parson, clerk/clark, university/varsity. This lowering continues: girl,her, early, burr etc.though not in all dialects (eg. Scots, as you noted). On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Aaron Drews wrote: -er- does not always refer to a schwa like sound in British Englishes. The words _clerk_ and _derby_, eg, are pronounced with modern realisations of [-a(r)-]. From what I understand, "Barkely" "Barcly" (etc), and "Berkely" all spring from a common source, and all pronounced with [-a(r)-]. The poet may have heard an Englishman or Scotsman say "Berkely" with a back vowel, and "transcribed" his impression. Nowadays, Berkely (as in U.C.), is pronounced with a schwa (RP) or an epsilon (Scottish). All the other examples are still -ar-. --Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:00:03 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: comedic The term is now over for us and today I have a final in the sophomore drama class. Repeatedly the term comedic turned up in papers where comic would have sufficed. Is this a new piece of jargon on the model of societal where social would do? There is a 1649 citation [I believe in a shorter version of the OED] 'pertaining to or relating to comedy' but in the the most recent MMLA a panel I was on was titled "D.H. Lawrence, Satirist: Revealing Eros Through Comedic Technique." So the term has some academic currency. I queried the coordinator of the panel, a retired colleague, used the word for the humor. I haven't searched for it on the net yet. Any intuitions? [distinterested parties only] -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 [no office hrs during fax: (740) 593-2818 break, only by appt] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:18:40 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: comedic At 11:00 AM 11/19/97 +0000, you (bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote: The term is now over for us and today I have a final in the sophomore drama class. Repeatedly the term comedic turned up in papers where comic would have sufficed. Is this a new piece of jargon on the model of societal where social would do? There is a 1649 citation [I believe in a shorter version of the OED] 'pertaining to or relating to comedy' but in the the most recent MMLA a panel I was on was titled "D.H. Lawrence, Satirist: Revealing Eros Through Comedic Technique." So the term has some academic currency. I queried the coordinator of the panel, a retired colleague, used the word for the humor. I haven't searched for it on the net yet. Any intuitions? [distinterested parties only] Fast guess, with no pretensions to being more than that -- When a word starts to get used in everyday and popular senses, there's a tendency to coin a more high-level way of expressing the putatively higher-level sense(s) of that word, often through a related but morphologically more complex word. Thus, "social" can mean having to do with courtesy or friendliness (paying a social visit; someone is "a very social person"), hence the emergence of "societal" for various kibnds of sociological (or similar) uses. "Comic" is encountered in everyday and pop-cult usage in such senses as a person who does stand-up (a "comic") or a kind of illustrated story or joke in printed media ("comics"), or anything funny ("comic," adj.). Hence "comedic" as an alternative for would-be academic, philosophical, etc. use... Not a sanctioning, just a stab at a possible explanation.... Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:06:51 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: /er/ /ar/ (was: Merzouri) With apologies for straying still a bit further from American dialects, the same development has occurred in some Dutch dialects (e.g. standard kerk [kErIk] 'church' becomes [karIk]) and in some Low Saxon ("Low German") dialects in Germany. Peter McGraw On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Robert Ness wrote: On Berkeley v Barclay: a following /r/ tends to lower vowels. In late ME through EmnE /er/ was often lowered to /ar/. Sometimes the lowering was permanent (star,farm), sometimes not(servant,sterling). Occasionally, doublets survive: Berkeley/Barclay, vermin/varmint, person/parson, clerk/clark, university/varsity. This lowering continues: girl,her, early, burr etc.though not in all dialects (eg. Scots, as you noted). On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Aaron Drews wrote: -er- does not always refer to a schwa like sound in British Englishes. The words _clerk_ and _derby_, eg, are pronounced with modern realisations of [-a(r)-]. From what I understand, "Barkely" "Barcly" (etc), and "Berkely" all spring from a common source, and all pronounced with [-a(r)-]. The poet may have heard an Englishman or Scotsman say "Berkely" with a back vowel, and "transcribed" his impression. Nowadays, Berkely (as in U.C.), is pronounced with a schwa (RP) or an epsilon (Scottish). All the other examples are still -ar-. --Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:42:15 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: comedic ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 11:00 AM 11/19/97 +0000, you (bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu) wrote: The term is now over for us and today I have a final in the sophomore drama class. Repeatedly the term comedic turned up in papers where comic would have sufficed. Is this a new piece of jargon on the model of societal where social would do? There is a 1649 citation [I believe in a shorter version of the OED] 'pertaining to or relating to comedy' but in the the most recent MMLA a panel I was on was titled "D.H. Lawrence, Satirist: Revealing Eros Through Comedic Technique." So the term has some academic currency. I queried the coordinator of the panel, a retired colleague, used the word for the humor. I haven't searched for it on the net yet. Any intuitions? [distinterested parties only] Fast guess, with no pretensions to being more than that -- When a word starts to get used in everyday and popular senses, there's a tendency to coin a more high-level way of expressing the putatively higher-level sense(s) of that word, often through a related but morphologically more complex word. Thus, "social" can mean having to do with courtesy or friendliness (paying a social visit; someone is "a very social person"), hence the emergence of "societal" for various kibnds of sociological (or similar) uses. "Comic" is encountered in everyday and pop-cult usage in such senses as a person who does stand-up (a "comic") or a kind of illustrated story or joke in printed media ("comics"), or anything funny ("comic," adj.). Hence "comedic" as an alternative for would-be academic, philosophical, etc. use... Not a sanctioning, just a stab at a possible explanation.... Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ---------------------------------------------------- What he said. (Wonder how long THAT's been around, and whence it came.) It's curious that while 'tragedy'/'comedy' is the natural opposition, 'tragedic' is far rarer. A quick and dirty search on Nexis reveals only 7 occurrences of the latter item, and most of these seem to represent (to me, at least) pompous sub- stitutions for 'tragic': the tragedic incident at Bhopal, the tragedic accident, the tragedic chain of events leading to the death of Elisa (a child abuse victim in N.Y.), etc. 'Comedic', on the other hand, is quite frequent: I kept getting 'more than 1000/too many to list' until I limited the search to post-9/1/97 hits, and then there were still 996. And while I confess I didn't look at all of them, the ones I did glance at all seem to involve the adj counterpart to 'comedy' in a dramatic/theatrical context, in most of which the use of 'comic' would have been inappropriate or misleading. One of the few instances of 'tragedic' was in fact primed by 'comedic' ("untapped comedic and tragedic talent"). So 'comedic' might be a fancier way of saying 'comic' (register difference) or a way of specifying 'of or relating to theatrical comedies' (referential difference). 'Tragedic' is less necessary, given the absence of a nominal use of 'tragic' (*He wants to be a comic, but he's really more of a tragic) and the "seriousness" of its adjectival use, obviating the need for a higher-register alternative. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:21:04 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: /er/ /ar/ (was: Merzouri) With apologies for straying still a bit further from American dialects, the same development has occurred in some Dutch dialects (e.g. standard kerk [kErIk] 'church' becomes [karIk]) and in some Low Saxon ("Low German") dialects in Germany. Double apologies from me. Peter McGraw mentions the Dutch [karIk], to which I would append Swabian Karrich (for Kirche 'church'). Peter R. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:33:46 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "Merzouri" "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU writes: Just what does 'er' spell? [...] The story ends with the Cracker telling another potential customer, threatening him with a well worn knife, "Pertaters end ternups, Mabin--but don't yer say aiggs, Mabin! Ef yer do, I'll sample yer gizzard!" The puzzle. Not too hard. This was South Carolina, where r- lessness and r-fulness overlapped, If the spelling is accurate, the fellow had the same vowel in the first and last syllables of 'potatoes' and the first syllable of 'turnips' as well as in 'you' and 'your'. So, what was it? Not what present-day literal-minded Americans assume, but a schwa-like sound that the British represent with 'er' and some 19th-century American writers also represented with 'er'. The words that provide the clinching evidence are the two instances of 'you', which I really doubt were pronounced as "spelled." Are you proposing that this SC dialect had an r-less schwa in "turnips"? Is that plausible? Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:35:42 PST From: ba GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: one as a pronoun? And what, pray tell, is wrong with VAHZ for "vase"? And if you do prefer the EH vowel, then is the final consonant S or Z (that's "zed," of course!)? One of my students once told me that the line in her family was that if it cost more than $50.00 (Canadian), it was a VAHZ, otherwise, a VEHZ. (Sorry this is so late a reply - I'm just catching up after Reading Break, when I obviously didn't!) Barbara Harris University of Victoria (British Columbia, that is) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:21:03 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "give it your best shot" A resident of my city recently asked me about the expression "give it your best shot." He is aware that it is usually associated with pugilism but wonders if it might have originated in artillery. He points out that artillerymen have a rule to try their best on the first shot. If the first shot misses, the second shot is not necessarily intended to hit the target; if the first shot is long, the second one must be short, and vice versa. The purpose of the second shot is to get a mesurement. The third shot _is_ intended to be on target. So, when an artilleryman takes his first shot, he "gives it his best shot." Might this expression then have been picked up in puglism, with the possibly original connection to artillery soon lost? Is anyone familiar with artillery and able to confirm or refute the above suggestion? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Nov 1997 to 19 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Nov 1997 to 20 Nov 1997 There are 13 messages totalling 585 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Merzouri" 2. More from the American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine 3. No subject given 4. vernacular (7) 5. Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:12:12 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "Merzouri" Just what does 'er' spell? Just what does 'er' spell? [...] The story ends with the Cracker telling another potential customer, threatening him with a well worn knife, "Pertaters end ternups, Mabin--but don't yer say aiggs, Mabin! Ef yer do, I'll sample yer gizzard!" The puzzle. Not too hard. This was South Carolina, where r- lessness and r-fulness overlapped, If the spelling is accurate, the fellow had the same vowel in the first and last syllables of 'potatoes' and the first syllable of 'turnips' as well as in 'you' and 'your'. So, what was it? Not what present-day literal-minded Americans assume, but a schwa-like sound that the British represent with 'er' and some 19th-century American writers also represented with 'er'. The words that provide the clinching evidence are the two instances of 'you', which I really doubt were pronounced as "spelled." Mark A. Mandel : Are you proposing that this SC dialect had an r-less schwa in "turnips"? Is that plausible? ...................... There would have been several dialects in the Columbia SC area at that time. Yes, I am proposing (even claiming) that evidence in the spelling indicates that the "Cracker" had r-less speech. He said 'you' and 'your' the same way and the conventional eye-dialect spelling (at that time) of the vowel sound in these words, as well as in 'pertaters' and 'ternups', was -er-. No American would choose this spelling now, but over a century ago this spelling seems to have worked for the "litterati" who were writing these spoofs; it crops up in other stories in this genre. My Uncle Ed, who grew up in northern Florida and called himself a Cracker, had r-less speech, though he was much brighter than the hapless fellow in the story. Uncle Ed said 'you' and 'your' alike -- just like the -er- vowel nuclei in the other words. Spellings and verbal jibes in these stories written in the mid-19th century indicated that the "educated" people, often but not always outsiders, made fun of the dialects of bumpkins, which is part of the "humor" of this story. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:27:32 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: More from the American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine The American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine is turning up some fine items. I've found many references to the race horse Black Maria, but I'm still looking for-- MARIAH CAREY: Hi! POPIK: Mariah Carey? MARIAH CAREY: Straight from the cover of Cosmopolitan! POPIK: There must be a mistake. Mariah--I'm looking for Black Maria! MARIAH CAREY: Okay, I'll go. POPIK: NOOO! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- DRUTHERS DARE has "druther" from 1887 and "druthers" from 1895. RHHDAS has "druthers" from 1870. This is from September 1833, pg. 40: I'd _druther_ live in the woods any time, by myself, than on the best plantation in the county; though I've got a family, and a decent one, too. MARIAH CAREY: I hate my druthers! POPIK: That's "brothers," Maria. MARIAH CAREY: That's Mariah! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- APPLE JACK DARE and OED have an 1816 citation, and then skip many years. This appears definitive, and is from April 1833, pg. 404: "Landlord, have you any _apple-jack_?"* *_Apple-jack_--a cant name for apple brandy, made in Nash county, N. C. and considered as the first of brandies from James river to Roanoke. MARIAH CAREY: Why would anyone want to jack an apple? POPIK: Do you know a Ron Carey? Drew Carey? Jim Carrey? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THREE R's (READIN', 'RITIN', 'RITHMETIC) This section of a song lyric is from January 1834, pg. 257: But when W-LK-R did proclaim, the three T's had won the game* *In allusion to a slip he once made in announcing the game, similar to the blunder of his countryman, when he gave as a toast, the R's, namely _reading_, _writing_ and _arithmetic_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- IT IS A FACT This is from March 1834, pg. 374: He is fond of cards and backgammon, and relishes his grog, and (Mrs. Trollope would say) "it is a fact" he is the happiest man in the world, and the life of every party. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- UNTRUE FACTS You gotta love "untrue facts." They beat "true facts" every time. In March 1834, pg. 361, there are: ...to supply him with "_his facts_," but resorts to advertisements, and puffs, and newspaper scraps for them. (...) This last assertion is one of Barrymore's "_untrue facts_." (...) This is another of Barrymore's "_untrue facts_." On that note, and with "Black Maria" still pending, this Barrymore will sign off, chase Mariah Carey out of the room, and go to sleep. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:01:08 +0300 From: esra atali e101130[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given I HAVE JUST SUBSCRIBED. I WANT MORE INFORMATION. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:47:48 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: vernacular I want to return to something Jeutonne said a few days ago. I object to the use of "vernacular" in the term, an objection that I have had since the early 1980s. Until we consistently use "vernacular" with other terms, such as Southern dialect, Northern dialect, Yiddish English, Chicano English, etc., we make, in my opinion, an unfortunate distinction for African American English. Enough of this soap boax topic. I am working on a paper on what sociolinguists mean by "vernacular" and the value they attach to it. My hypothesis is that although we often give a style-based definition of the term, we operationalize it as a class-based construct. So I am asking, What does "vernacular" mean to you?" And while I'm at it, is everyone here comfortable with the claim that the vernacular shows less internal variation than more formal/middle class varieties? Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:24:57 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular Ellen, These are some very important issues. I would add to the style and status senses of vernacular the other 'acquisition' one, namely, the sociolinguistic 'commonplace' that your vernacular is your 'first learned' and hence 'strongest' variety. I think you have to specify which of the above definitions of vernacular you are talking about before you can approach your last question. I also believe you have to specify the linguistic 'level' you mean. That covers too much territory to address quickly, but, to complicate it further, you could think about the apparent fact that regionally isolated varieties (e.g., Faroese as opposed to modern Norwegian, Trudgill's example) show more rather than less variation due to their lack of other-language and variety contact (i.e., their isolation). If you throw out situations like that (and compare only 'equally situated' varieties), then I believe there is a great deal of evidence that lower-status varieties show greater regularity at lexical, phonological, morphological, and syntactic levels. I wouldn't want to venture into discoursal variation. The next two situations (i.e., stylistic and 'native') are also interesting. You would always expect more variation in your 'native' variety (the acquisition sense of 'vernacular'), at least along interpersonal and 'folk' dimensions, although you might speculate that some middle (and upper-) class speakers come to find their native variety so inappropriate for some sorts of interpersonal activities that they actually prefer lower-status varieties (a less 'male' oriented notion of 'covert pretige,' if you like, a theme I tried to use in exaplaining in some of my recent attitudinal research the preference for southern speech among northern repsondents - along affective dimensions only, of coruse; intellectual and 'standard' language use still belong to northern speech [according to Michigan respondents, at any rate]). Glad to see someone is thinking about sorting this out. A little lexical prescriptivism among professionals never hurts. DInIs I want to return to something Jeutonne said a few days ago. I object to the use of "vernacular" in the term, an objection that I have had since the early 1980s. Until we consistently use "vernacular" with other terms, such as Southern dialect, Northern dialect, Yiddish English, Chicano English, etc., we make, in my opinion, an unfortunate distinction for African American English. Enough of this soap boax topic. I am working on a paper on what sociolinguists mean by "vernacular" and the value they attach to it. My hypothesis is that although we often give a style-based definition of the term, we operationalize it as a class-based construct. So I am asking, What does "vernacular" mean to you?" And while I'm at it, is everyone here comfortable with the claim that the vernacular shows less internal variation than more formal/middle class varieties? Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:37:50 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). You may want to check it out. Wayne Glowka On the World Wide Web at http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~wglowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:59:58 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery At 01:37 PM 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote: One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). Some version of this article, maybe identical to the print version but maybe not, is at this URL: http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/9712-1.html At the bottom of the article are four related links, one of which is "American Dialects Society" [sic]. A quick skim indicates that the piece is oriented toward a generally-educcted audience and argues that, speaking descriptively, AAVE is a rule-governed variety of English with influences from west-Afr languages etc. I'm sure there are plenty of nuances to the piece beyond that, but all I have time for just at the moment is a quick skim. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:55:53 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery Amazing. I just stumbled across Rickford's article in a copy of Discovery (a magazine I've never read before) in the waiting room of my kids' orthodonist earlier this week. And to the best of my recollection the version at the website is indeed the published version, besides having color illustrations (which a xeroxed version for a class packet wouldn't) and useful links to other relevant material. Thanks, guys! ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- At 01:37 PM 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote: One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). Some version of this article, maybe identical to the print version but maybe not, is at this URL: http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/9712-1.html At the bottom of the article are four related links, one of which is "American Dialects Society" [sic]. A quick skim indicates that the piece is oriented toward a generally-educcted audience and argues that, speaking descriptively, AAVE is a rule-governed variety of English with influences from west-Afr languages etc. I'm sure there are plenty of nuances to the piece beyond that, but all I have time for just at the moment is a quick skim. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:04:59 -0600 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular Dennis Preston writes: These are some very important issues. I would add to the style and status senses of vernacular the other 'acquisition' one, namely, the sociolinguistic 'commonplace' that your vernacular is your 'first learned' and hence 'strongest' variety. There are also many instances where a speaker's vernacular is not their first language or mother tongue, but a variety acquired much later--especially those cases in which a speaker's first language has fallen in attrition. This is actually one of the problems with our sublimation of the native speaker's authority in linguistics. Not all native speakers are adequate judges of well-formedness/acceptability of utterances, nor adequate sources of data, although in the majority of cases non-native speakers just do not do any better, except where they are the norm-setters. I agree with your other comments. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:04:56 -0600 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular Ellen Johnson writes: And while I'm at it, is everyone here comfortable with the claim that the vernacular shows less internal variation than more formal/middle class varieties? I had to read this question twice, not because it is poorly worded but because I did not find it consistent with my gut feeling. I expected varieties close to the standard to show less variation, perhaps because I expect them to less tolerant of alternatives that are precluded by the standard norm. I also think that part of my hesitation in reading the question is the juxtaposition of "formal" and "middle". Are middle-class varieties necessarily "formal"? Then I would like to be less charitable now and ask whether there are no middle and upper class vernaculars. Perhaps part of my training in a non-anglophone tradition is bearing on my interpretation of "vernacular". For me, it is independent of class and level-of-education considerations. A person's vernacular is what they use for day-to-day communication, i.e., their primary means of communication. As I understand, the term, etymologically it means 'domestic variety'.--Just checked the meanings provided by Random House. The explanations for adjectival and nominal uses do not seem so consistent with each other. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:27:16 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular Sali, In fact, this is one of difficulties I had in mind. What a 'native speaker' is (and, therefore, what the intepretation of their 'strongest' or 'most deeply-embedded' variety would be), as you point out, not a given by any means. DInIs Dennis Preston writes: These are some very important issues. I would add to the style and status senses of vernacular the other 'acquisition' one, namely, the sociolinguistic 'commonplace' that your vernacular is your 'first learned' and hence 'strongest' variety. There are also many instances where a speaker's vernacular is not their first language or mother tongue, but a variety acquired much later--especially those cases in which a speaker's first language has fallen in attrition. This is actually one of the problems with our sublimation of the native speaker's authority in linguistics. Not all native speakers are adequate judges of well-formedness/acceptability of utterances, nor adequate sources of data, although in the majority of cases non-native speakers just do not do any better, except where they are the norm-setters. I agree with your other comments. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:56:25 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote: I am working on a paper on what sociolinguists mean by "vernacular" and the value they attach to it. My hypothesis is that although we often give a style-based definition of the term, we operationalize it as a class-based construct. So I am asking, What does "vernacular" mean to you?" To me, the term "vernacular" means a local idiom. In this context, it refers to variation associated with a specific region and has nothing to do with issues of style or social class. And while I'm at it, is everyone here comfortable with the claim that the vernacular shows less internal variation than more formal/middle class varieties? I cannot answer this question because I am not comfortable in using "vernacular" as a label for a variety that is associated with a certain social class. If vernacular is associated with the variety spoken by a lower working class group of a specific area, I cannot accept the claim. Aside from studies looking at small sets of linguistic variables, there is no evidence to support such a claim across an entire linguistic system. For example, a study could show that there is less variation in the variable realization of the nasal phoneme of the progressive aspect verbal inflection in English in working class speakers of English. But how can we go from this item and others like it to a claim about the entire variety unless we have available a complete description of the variety? To be frank, I have never seen a complete description of a variety that would allow such claims to be made. Beyond these questions, the claim that there is less internal variation in the vernacular than in middle class varieties parallels Bernstein's distinction between a restricted and an elaborated code. What is contemporary thinking on the legitimacy of this distinction? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:44:41 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular I'm glad to hear that you are working on the subject of the meaning and value associated with the word "vernacular." As I mentioned earlier, I don't like to use the word. I think the reason is explained, in part, by the etymology of the word. The Random Huse Webster's Unabridged Dictionary (c 1987-1996) lists this etymology: L vernacul(us) household, domestic, native (appar. adj. use of vernaculus, dim. of verna slave born in the master's household, though derivation unclear) My Webster's New World Dictionary, College Edition states L vernaculus, belonging to homeborn slaves, domestic, native, indigenous verna, a homeborn slave. The definitions in the two dictionaries are similar although not necessarily in the same order: Random House Webster's: (of language) native or indigenous (opposed to literary or learned). expressed or written in the native language of a place, as literary works: a vernacular poem. using plain, everyday, ordinary language the language or vocabulary peculiar to a class or profession any medium or mode of expression that reflects popular taste or indigenous styles My 1958 Webster's: language of a country or place, as distinguished from literary language native to a county (example is vernacular arts, which I have never heard) the common everyday language of ordinary people in a particular locality The definitions and etymology indicate both a regional and class meaning. I never hear the word use with other than a negative meaning in my English classes. I also remember reading about the vernacular in books published in earlier centuries, always with (an element of) negative meaning/attitude, if I remember correctly. I don't have any citattions/quotes at hand. I think it would be very interesting to know what our students think the word means in sociolinguistic terms, what value they attach to the word. I think that my students would associate a negative meaning with "vernacular," but I haven't tested this in any specific way. As to the point about the level of variation, I remember that William Labov claimed in the 70s that the "ordinary" language (or dialect) was more regular, less variable, than the language of the professional (or the middle class, or whatever). He stressed this point in a lecture presented on our campus in 1976. Jeutonne ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Nov 1997 to 20 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1997 to 21 Nov 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. survey of attitudes and beliefs 2. Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery (4) 3. vernacular (2) 4. linguistic heterogeneity 5. Merzouri 6. pragmatic change in progress? 7. well and why ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:16:18 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: survey of attitudes and beliefs A colleague (in Education) and I (in English and Linguistics) received a collaboration grant to conduct a study on pre-service teachers' beliefs and attitudes about language variation and linguistically diverse students. The purpose of the project is to explore preservice teachers' understandings of language variation, their attitudes towards linguistic diversity, and the ways they plan on dealing with linguistically diverse students in their classrooms. What we'd like to ask is if anyone knows of an existing survey that looks at any of these issues. We need to construct a survey and it would be helpful if we knew of existing surveys we could access to help with this project. Any help you can provide would be appreciated. --SL ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 09:50:37 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery I accidentally deleted the message that contained the WWW address for the article mentioned below. Could someone message me the address so I can access it on the web? --SL On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). You may want to check it out. Wayne Glowka On the World Wide Web at http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~wglowka ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:01:09 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery Sonja, It's http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/9712-1.html Alan B. At 09:50 AM 11/21/97 -0500, sonja lanehart wrote: I accidentally deleted the message that contained the WWW address for the article mentioned below. Could someone message me the address so I can access it on the web? --SL On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). You may want to check it out. Wayne Glowka On the World Wide Web at http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~wglowka ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:04:57 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery Thank you Greg (Downing) and Alan for the address. --SL On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Alan Baragona wrote: Sonja, It's http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/9712-1.html Alan B. At 09:50 AM 11/21/97 -0500, sonja lanehart wrote: I accidentally deleted the message that contained the WWW address for the article mentioned below. Could someone message me the address so I can access it on the web? --SL On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: One of my graduate students just handed me a copy of John R. Rickford's "Suite for Ebony and Phonics" (_Discover_ Dec. 1997: 82-87). You may want to check it out. Wayne Glowka On the World Wide Web at http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~wglowka ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:08:11 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular I came across this interesting use of the term in Chang-Rae Lee's novel _Native Speaker_; the narrator, a Korean American named Henry Park, is writing about an ambitious, visionary politician named John Kwang, also Korean American: "I suppose it was a question of imagination. What I was able to see. Before I knew of him, I had never even conceived of someone like him. A Korean man, of his age, as part of the vernacular. Not just a respectable grocer or dry cleaner or doctor, but a larger public figure who was willing to speak and act outside the tight sphere of his family" (139). What struck me about this was the honorific sense it seemed to me "vernacular" was being used in - meaning, more or less, "lofty public idiom." Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:09:06 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Rickford on Ebonics in Discovery At 09:50 AM 11/21/97 -0500, sonja lanehart wrote: I accidentally deleted the message that contained the WWW address for the article mentioned below. Could someone message me the address so I can access it on the web? --SL http://www.enews.com/magazines/discover/magtxt/9712-1.html -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:05:44 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: linguistic heterogeneity Ellen asks: And while I'm at it, is everyone here comfortable with the claim that the vernacular shows less internal variation than more formal/middle class varieties? I've been howling about this for years. It is perhaps easier to dismiss as "lames" all working-class folks (as opposed to middle-class folks) who do not conform to the sociolinguist's expectations, but even so there is tremendous internal variation left over. Even Labov's New York adolescent street-gang members showed immense variation with respect to both phonological and morphological variables. Some of the variation can be explained by age-grading and stle shifting, but rarely (with a few exceptions) do sociolinguists even comment on the internal nonlame variation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:31:41 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Merzouri I asked: Are you proposing that this SC dialect had an r-less schwa in "turnips"? Is that plausible? Donald M. Lance replied: There would have been several dialects in the Columbia SC area at that time. Yes, I am proposing (even claiming) that evidence in the spelling indicates that the "Cracker" had r-less speech. He said 'you' and 'your' the same way and the conventional eye-dialect spelling (at that time) of the vowel sound in these words, as well as in 'pertaters' and 'ternups', was -er-. No American would choose this spelling now, but over a century ago this spelling seems to have worked for the "litterati" who were writing these spoofs; it crops up in other stories in this genre. My Uncle Ed, who grew up in northern Florida and called himself a Cracker, had r-less speech, though he was much brighter than the hapless fellow in the story. Uncle Ed said 'you' and 'your' alike -- just like the -er- vowel nuclei in the other words. Spellings and verbal jibes in these stories written in the mid-19th century indicated that the "educated" people, often but not always outsiders, made fun of the dialects of bumpkins, which is part of the "humor" of this story. I'm sorry, I didn't express my question -- or perhaps my doubt -- precisely enough. All the other examples of "er" from the text that you mention as evidence that it's intended to convey an r-less schwa are UNSTRESSED. But the first syllable of "turnip" (spelled as "ternup" in the text, IIRC) is stressed, unless we're talking about far different changes than I thought we were. And I have trouble imagining a vowel in that syllable that is any kind of match for an r-less schwa. Maybe a diphthong with a palatal glide at the end, such as is often transcribed "oi" ("da corner of Toity-toid an' Toid"), but not an r-less schwa. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:55:19 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: pragmatic change in progress? I was discussing with my Language and Law seminar the meaning of WELL and WHY, using the following examples (1-5 are spun off from an article by Georgia Green; 6 is my own): 1. Q: Did you kill Mrs. Wayne? A1: Well, yes. A2: Why, yes. 2. Q: Who is buried in Grant's tomb? A1: Well, Grant. A2: Why, Grant. 3. Q: Where are the hats and coats? A1/2: Well/Why, in the closet. 4. When was A. Lincoln born? --Well/Why, in 1809. 5. Don't you think it was necessary x that these men be hanged as a example? --Well/Why that would be anarchy. 6. Do you sleep in the nude? -Well/Why, yes/no. I had a lot of trouble getting my students to focus on the meaning differences between WELL and WHY in these environments. Though they understood the differences, they kept saying, "But nobody under age 50 would ever use WHY in that way--only old people talk that way!" This was not the answer I expected. Has anybody else had this reaction from students about WHY in this usage? What are the reactions of y'all? Is there a change in progress here? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:23:42 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: well and why At 10:55 PM 11/21/97 -0500, you wrote: I had a lot of trouble getting my students to focus on the meaning differences between WELL and WHY in these environments. Though they understood the differences, they kept saying, "But nobody under age 50 would ever use WHY in that way--only old people talk that way!" This was not the answer I expected. Has anybody else had this reaction from students about WHY in this usage? What are the reactions of y'all? Is there a change in progress here? Well, I am near 40, grew up in southern Michigan, have lived in New York City for 15+ years, have a certain amt. of education, and would consider "well" in the usages you cited almost like breathing. But "why" in that slot sounds to me like "Driving Miss Daisy," and I would never say it in a million years without trying to sound like an old codger or a character from a western or something like that. My 90-y.o. grandmothers would maybe say it. My mother (age 60) hasn't ever used it, if memory serves.... So if you want a collection of subjective usage-senses, there's one for you to add??? All best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:43:54 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular The definitions in the two dictionaries are similar although not necessarily in the same order: Merriam dictionaries use historical order, and Random Housee dictonaries use most common order. As to the point about the level of variation, I remember that William Labov claimed in the 70s that the "ordinary" language (or dialect) was more regular, less variable, than the language of the professional (or the middle class, or whatever). He stressed this point in a lecture presented on our campus in 1976. The term 'vernacular' is also used by scholars in the field of material culture, as in 'vernacular architecture'. It has negative value only to people who would consider shotgun houses or T- or L-houses built by lay carpenters not to be worthy of scholarly attention. Similar to the conditions under which negative values are assigned to 'vernacular language'. "In the vernacular" is a way of putting down usages that are associated with lack of education. AS for regularity. An individual vernacular-only user might have less variation in his/er language use than an educated "standard"-language-user. I suspect this is what Labov was referring to. But if we look at variation in vernacular(s) used in a community of any size, there might very well be much more variation than we see in TIME Magazine, though TIME likes to use cutesy vernacular vocabulary in sections dealing with pop culture. Certainly more variation in vernacular tense-aspect forms than in standard, I should think. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1997 to 21 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Nov 1997 to 22 Nov 1997 There are 21 messages totalling 920 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Merzouri 2. well and why 3. Appalachian Dialect (3) 4. Wedding Day poem 5. uh&duh (2) 6. pragmatic change in progress? (9) 7. Help needed in the Ukraine 8. "Black Fridays" of Finance 9. Why = hwy or wy? (A Tale of Two Regions) 10. Hookers; Lizards; Elephants; My boss ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:18:11 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Merzouri Mark Mandel continues his query, more precisely this time: I'm sorry, I didn't express my question -- or perhaps my doubt -- precisely enough. All the other examples of "er" from the text that you mention as evidence that it's intended to convey an r-less schwa are UNSTRESSED. But the first syllable of "turnip" (spelled as "ternup" in the text, IIRC) is stressed, unless we're talking about far different changes than I thought we were. And I have trouble imagining a vowel in that syllable that is any kind of match for an r-less schwa. Maybe a diphthong with a palatal glide at the end, such as is often transcribed "oi" ("da corner of Toity-toid an' Toid"), but not an r-less schwa. In referring to stressed/unstressed, you're assuming that a dialect writer would adjust his/er spellings to differentiate on the basis of stress. Few writers have that sophisticated an understanding of linguistic processes. Consistency in the spelling counts more than niceties like level of syllable stress in literary dialect marking; they're after stereotyping, not accuracy. The sound in question isn't exactly the same as a schwa that you or I would produce, but a higher and tenser vowel like my Uncle Ed produced. And like many speakers of British dialects produce. The New York / New Orleans "oi" diphthong isn't likely to be used in Cracker speech, back in 1850 or now. Some "modified IPA" transcription systems have used both the wedge and a symbol like a 3 with rounded top to represent mid-central r-less vowels, and schwa and 3 with hooks to indicate r-ful mid-central vowels (unstressed and stressed, respectively). This hook-less 3 in stressed and unstressed versions is what I'm claiming the Cracker in the story used. I also would imagine the Cracker to have quite a "drawl," i.e., lengthening of these syllables so that these pronunciations were salient for his tormenter, along with the salience of his spellings 'ternups' and 'pertaters'. A side comment: where did the -er of 'taters' come from if not from a vernacular pronunciation similar to the Cracker's? The "oi" diphthnong you refer to in -Vr- nuclei is closer to [3I] than to [oI], at least to my ear, whether in NY or NO or AAVE dialects. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:27:49 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: well and why Who's buried in Grant's Tomb? "_____, Grant." I'm 40 and would say "well." But my 15 year old daughter and my 12 year old son and my 7 year old son wouldn't say "why" or "well," they'd say (in the style of Beavis and/or Butthead) "Uh, Lincoln?" Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 07:52:35 -0500 From: Dennis and Marcia Moore dmmoore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GREENEPA.NET Subject: Appalachian Dialect I am writing a short story for an English class and I am looking for some words or phrases common to the Appalachian region. Does anybody know of a good resource for this information? I need to carefully document the validity of the dialect in the story. I would appreciate any help that you could give. Marcia Moore ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:13:26 -0500 From: Dennis and Marcia Moore dmmoore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GREENEPA.NET Subject: Wedding Day poem WEDDING DAY Fourteen red roses across an oak table - one for Amy, one for Mary, a dozen for me. Umbilical cords of violet curling ribbon tether purple balloons, snippets of conversation and male laughter. Makeup, hairspray and petticoats transform the basement baptismal into a boudoir. "Woo-wooo! Mommy, look!" Jonathon lines up a folding chair choo-choo, tiny sandaled feet kicking in delight. One hundred two this afternoon, the local station announces over the humming box fans. Dennis' bass voice drifts down the staircase, singing, "Nights in White Satin" just for me. Mom reclines, fanning herself with a popsicle stick funeral home ad. A snowy, sequined gown, draped over plastic breasts and torso hangs in the corner like an image of me, patiently awaiting the processional. I got an A on this one! Marcia **************************************************************************** "Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born." --Anais Nin **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:42:08 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: uh&duh Gregory J. Pulliam writes: Who's buried in Grant's Tomb? "_____, Grant." I'm 40 and would say "well." But my 15 year old daughter and my 12 year old son and my 7 year old son wouldn't say "why" or "well," they'd say (in the style of Beavis and/or Butthead) "Uh, Lincoln?" Good answer, but does "Uh" really mean the same thing as both "Well" and "Why" in this context? Or is "Uh" only a filler that the pragmatic comment to be carried by the intonation? 1. Q: Did you kill Mrs. Wayne? A1: Uh, yes/no. (= Why, yes/no.) [certainty about some aspect of the exchange] A2: Uh, yes/no? ( = Well, yes/no.) [uncertainty about . . .] 2. Q: Who is buried in Grant's tomb? A1: Uh, Grant. (= Why, Grant.) A2: Uh, Grant? (= Well, Grant.) 6. Do you sleep in the nude? A1: Uh, yes/no. (=Why, yes.) A1: Uh, yes/no? (= Well, yes.) The contemporary situation is further complicated by the form "Duh," which seems to function in initial position like "why"--but is not used (I think) unless the speaker feels that she will not insult her audience with so informal an utterance. Also, speakers do say, "Well, Duh!" And *Duh, yes/no?" are ill-formed. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:53:58 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: uh&duh Regarding the well/why discussion, it seems to me that the disitnction clearly depends on the intonation used by the speaker. "Do you sleep in the nude?" #1."Why (very surprised that nayone would ask such a question), yes I do." Or, #2."Why(of course, doesn't everyone) yes I do." "Well" works in #1, but it seems to me that it is different in #2--more like an admission than an assertion. At 11:42 AM 11/22/97 -0500, Ron Butters wrote: Gregory J. Pulliam writes: Who's buried in Grant's Tomb? "_____, Grant." I'm 40 and would say "well." But my 15 year old daughter and my 12 year old son and my 7 year old son wouldn't say "why" or "well," they'd say (in the style of Beavis and/or Butthead) "Uh, Lincoln?" Good answer, but does "Uh" really mean the same thing as both "Well" and "Why" in this context? Or is "Uh" only a filler that the pragmatic comment to be carried by the intonation? 1. Q: Did you kill Mrs. Wayne? A1: Uh, yes/no. (= Why, yes/no.) [certainty about some aspect of the exchange] A2: Uh, yes/no? ( = Well, yes/no.) [uncertainty about . . .] 2. Q: Who is buried in Grant's tomb? A1: Uh, Grant. (= Why, Grant.) A2: Uh, Grant? (= Well, Grant.) 6. Do you sleep in the nude? A1: Uh, yes/no. (=Why, yes.) A1: Uh, yes/no? (= Well, yes.) The contemporary situation is further complicated by the form "Duh," which seems to function in initial position like "why"--but is not used (I think) unless the speaker feels that she will not insult her audience with so informal an utterance. Also, speakers do say, "Well, Duh!" And *Duh, yes/no?" are ill-formed. Cheers, Pat Courts ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:24:30 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? At 10:55 PM 11/21/97 -0500, Ron Butters wrote: I had a lot of trouble getting my students to focus on the meaning differences between WELL and WHY in these environments. Though they understood the differences, they kept saying, "But nobody under age 50 would ever use WHY in that way--only old people talk that way!" This was not the answer I expected. Has anybody else had this reaction from students about WHY in this usage? What are the reactions of y'all? Is there a change in progress here? I'm 54, and I'm sure I've never used "why" this way except when conciously imitating someone else's style. I perceive it as both older generation and predominately female. Instead of "why" I'd use either "of course" or an intonation pattern that indicates "I'm surprised you asked". David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]peachnet.campus.mci.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:29:49 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Appalachian Dialect For Appalachian words, see the Index to the first two volumes of the Dictionary of American Regional English, published as _Publication of the American Dialect Society_ no. 77 in 1993 (U. of Alabama Press). For terms from volume III of DARE, contact me directly. This only gets you from A through O, but it's a good start! Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:59:32 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? As a discourse marker (detachable, etc.,) "of course" occurs finally, while both "well," and "why," occur initially. "Grant, PAUSE of course" vs "Well PAUSE, Grant" or vs "Why PAUSE, Grant." I think you could get "Duh PAUSE, Grant" rising tone - false question/rhetorical question. "Well PAUSE, Grant" but not **"Grant, PAUSE duh (or PAUSE duh?" these are, of course (well, duh) on the hoof, pause in minestrone-making intuitions But I'm pretty certain here that, in this frame, "of course" is occurs only finally, "well," and "why," only initially. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:23:42 -0500 From: Dennis and Marcia Moore dmmoore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GREENEPA.NET Subject: Re: Appalachian Dialect Thank you for the information. I saw some information for DARE online and was extremely interested in it. I found out that my school library has all three volumes of it, so that will be a wonderful resource for me to use. This has been rather frustrating - I grew up with Appalachian speakers all around me and never gave it a second thought until I needed to find some actual resources for the dialect. Marcia Moore At 12:29 PM 11/22/97 -0600, you wrote: For Appalachian words, see the Index to the first two volumes of the Dictionary of American Regional English, published as _Publication of the American Dialect Society_ no. 77 in 1993 (U. of Alabama Press). **************************************************************************** "Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born." --Anais Nin **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:19:41 -0700 From: Andrew & Diane Lillie diandy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BYU.EDU Subject: Help needed in the Ukraine I received this request from Karen Scott, who found the ADS webpage. ---------- I have had a request for information on Black American Dialect, language structure, and Ebonics, from the Language College in the Ukraine. This request comes via a friend from Alaska who is working over there as a Nurse. Can you help? I am well out of my depth here in Canada. I know about Ebonics and the contravery about it, but don't know the details. Please respond to the address above, or should they write you direct, please help. They don't have access to the web, only Email. Karen Scott ---------- Anyone who might be able to help, e-mail Karen Scott at jkscott[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stn.net or her friend at marilyne[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msea.ks.energy.gov.ua ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:38:22 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? Well, I'm older than 54 and this discoursal or exlamatopry 'why' is completely native to me. Here's a funny fact about it though. I'm a /hw/-/w/ distinguisher; that is, 'whale' and 'wail' are not homophones for me. BUT - interrogative why ('Why did you do that?') is always /hw/ in my speech, and the discourse marker 'why' ('Why, it's on the the other side of the room') is invariably /w/. Any other standard speakers out there like me who have this distinction (not /hw/ - /w/ in general; lots of us old codgers from some places have that, but this specific sepaation of the two 'whys')? DInIS PS: Of course, if you don't have the distinction at all, then you're just not a speaker of standard American English. The best proof of that I can think of right off the top of my head (where such comments all seem to come from) is that you don't sound like me. At 10:55 PM 11/21/97 -0500, Ron Butters wrote: I had a lot of trouble getting my students to focus on the meaning differences between WELL and WHY in these environments. Though they understood the differences, they kept saying, "But nobody under age 50 would ever use WHY in that way--only old people talk that way!" This was not the answer I expected. Has anybody else had this reaction from students about WHY in this usage? What are the reactions of y'all? Is there a change in progress here? I'm 54, and I'm sure I've never used "why" this way except when conciously imitating someone else's style. I perceive it as both older generation and predominately female. Instead of "why" I'd use either "of course" or an intonation pattern that indicates "I'm surprised you asked". David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]peachnet.campus.mci.net Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 15:43:42 EST From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? i agree with DInIs [preston] entirely. these occurrences of WHY are entirely natural for me - hey, i'm three years older than DInIS, so i'm even more of an old codger - *and* the discourse WHY has /w/ while the interrogative WHY has /hw/. (not everything spelled wh is pronounced with /hw/, even for folks like me who hwinny. WHOA *never* has /hw/, in particular.) arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:04:17 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? Arnold's post reminds me of two of the best hypercorrectios I ever heard, and, as Arnold will surely like, they are both Ohio State stories (but before Arnold's time, so I'm not sure how much of a codger he can clainm to be). (Only the first is relevant to the /hw/-/w/, but while I was on OSU hypercorrection, I just couldn't turn it loose.) Both were in graduate seminars. 1) A student was reading a list of words from some experiment he had done and apologized that the next word might be 'dirty' for some. He then went on to say /hwor/. Stupidly, I could not decode it for a bit. Finally I caught on. I don't exactly recall how the difficulty was resolved, but I know the other students didn't let him get away with it. (In short, Arnold is right; not all 'wh' spellings are pronounced /hw/. But hwo doesn't know that!) (While we are on this lexical item, however, does anybody know the approximate boundaries, geogrqphical, social, whatever, of the /hur/ ('hoor') as opposed to /hor/ ('hore') pronunciations? The first time I heard /hur/ I found it very foreign, but I'm a standard English speaker from Louisville. My impression was that the /hur/ forms were northern and eastern exclusively.) 2) The second one is my all-time favorite. A student was reading a list of example sentences, one of which was 'I took my dog out for a walk on its leash.' When he got to the last word he pronounced it /lIsh/. I said (crassly), 'Don't you mean leash /lish/?' He said 'Oh, I don't talk that way any more.' Then I realized (as, of course, I should have earlier just from the 'input data') that he was a high lax vowel tenser before /sh/ (the well-known 'feesh' and 'poosh' phenomenon, although the boundaries of this are a little fuzzy). It is not common in all of the South Midlands (or 'Upper South,' and I suspect that for younger speakers in many areas it is a status marker. DInIs i agree with DInIs [preston] entirely. these occurrences of WHY are entirely natural for me - hey, i'm three years older than DInIS, so i'm even more of an old codger - *and* the discourse WHY has /w/ while the interrogative WHY has /hw/. (not everything spelled wh is pronounced with /hw/, even for folks like me who hwinny. WHOA *never* has /hw/, in particular.) arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:24:45 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? For me, (an-almost 57-yr-old), {whore} has always been /hohr/ but I can remember working people in my village saying "who-er" with two syllables. (I grew up on L.I.) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:39:15 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? I note (though I couldn't have identified it on my own) the same distinction Dennis Preston notes), with one addition, namely, that as I hear my voice saying, "why, yes" or something similar, I'm aware that in that construction not only do I not sound hw, I don't sound the full vowel of "why," but instead something more closely resembling a schwa. Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:16:02 -0700 From: "Garland D. Bills" gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: I'm a /hw/-/w/ distinguisher; that is, 'whale' and 'wail' are not homophones for me. BUT - interrogative why ('Why did you do that?') is always /hw/ in my speech, and the discourse marker 'why' ('Why, it's on the the other side of the room') is invariably /w/. Any other standard speakers out there like me who have this distinction (not /hw/ - /w/ in general; lots of us old codgers from some places have that, but this specific sepaation of the two 'whys')? Why, yes, of course. All us standard English speakers do that. Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:33:57 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Black Fridays" of Finance "When Black Friday comes I'll stand down by the door And catch the grey men When they dive from the fourteenth floor." --Steely Dan, "Black Friday" I'm getting tired of these corrections. They never even get printed. This is from William Safire's "On Language" column, New York Times Magazine, 23 November 1997: Oct. 19, 1987, was called _Black Monday_ on the analogy of _Black Thursday_ of Oct. 24, 1929, and _Black Tuesday_ of Oct. 29, 1929. These were antedated by _Black Friday_ of Sept. 24, 1869, when Jay Gould drove brokers into bankruptcy with his attempted corner of the gold market. "Black Friday" was a financial phrase long before 1869, but at least Safire got the 1929 dates correct. THE TIMETABLES OF HISTORY by Bernard Grun has "'Black Friday' in New York; U. S. Stock Exchange collapses on Oct. 28." October 28th was a Monday. Christine Ammer's SEEING RED OR TICKLED PINK has, on pages 32-33, "...October 29, 1929, which was dubbed _Black Friday_ and is often considered to mark the start of the Great Depression." October 29th was a Tuesday. This is from the Milwaukee Sentinel, 21 December 1916, pg. 6, cols. 5-6: "BLACK FRIDAYS" OF FINANCE Several of the great financial panics of the past have commenced on a Friday, and this has given rise to one of the pet superstitions of the stock exchanges and bourses of the world--that the sixth day of the week is fraught with ill omen for those engaged in financial operations. The original "Black Friday" occurred 171 years ago, Dec. 6, 1745, in London. On that date tidings reached the metropolis that the pretender, Boonie Prince Charlie, had reached Derby with his forces. Londoners immediately made preparations to fly from the city, and a panic prevailed. It was on that occasion that the Bank of England had its closest call in its long history. The citizens were anxious to take their money with them, and the Bank of England was besieged by an army of depositors. The bank escaped bankruptcy only by the expedient of placing "dummies" in the line to impede genuine depositors, and by paying bona fide depositors in small coins, thus consuming much time. The first "Black Friday" of latter day financial history was in 1866, just a half century ago, and was due to the failure of one of London's largest banking houses. Three years later Wall street had a "Black Friday," due to an attempt to engineer a corner in gold. The worst of all financial "Black Fridays" was that of 1873, when, on Friday, Sept. 18, it seemed that the whole financial structure of the new world had crumbled into ruins.--New York World. While Ammer was mistaken about 1929's "Black Friday," she nonetheless has a more interesting discussion than Safire's column about "Blue Monday." George Gershwin wrote a poorly received one-act opera called _Blue Monday_ (1922). It had only a single performance. Two years later, Gershwin did his best-known work, _Rhapsody in Blue_. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:36:06 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: I'm a /hw/-/w/ distinguisher; that is, 'whale' and 'wail' are not homophones for me. BUT - interrogative why ('Why did you do that?') is always /hw/ in my speech, and the discourse marker 'why' ('Why, it's on the the other side of the room') is invariably /w/. Any other standard speakers out there like me who have this distinction (not /hw/ - /w/ in general; lots of us old codgers from some places have that, but this specific sepaation of the two 'whys')? I've been aware for some time that my /hw-/ ~ /w-/ usage is variable; I think it fits the pattern that DInIs describes (and Garland Bills also claims) -- Bethany, standard English speaker from Texas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 22:24:52 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Why = hwy or wy? (A Tale of Two Regions) At 09:36 PM 11/22/97 -0500, you ("Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU ) wrote: I've been aware for some time that my /hw-/ ~ /w-/ usage is variable; I think it fits the pattern that DInIs describes (and Garland Bills also claims) -- Well, as long as we're onto this, these things can cause great troubles in a marriage when they come up at the wrong moment, you know! I was raised in Michigan and say "hwy" (initial aspiration) for "why," and my wife, who was raised till age 10 in New York City, and thereafter by a relative in Michigan who had also been raised in New York City, says "wy" and only "wy." For fifteen years she has bugged me from time to time about the fact that I say "hwy" not "wy" (most of us probably know how it is with relationships and getting one's way etc...). It's because she notices it the most when I am asking her a question she does not want to answer. Do I need to draw a picture here? So when the discussion on a given topic reaches the point where (hwair) I am trying to get her to give a good reason for whatever (hwutevr) she is advocating at a given juncture, so's I can take it apart systematically and (of course) get my way on the issue at hand, I'll say, "Yes, but hwy?" She'll almost invariably try to derail the interrogation by responding, "Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Wy do you put that stupid extra sound at the front and overenunciate? Wut's yer problem? Wy do you always do that?" Part of my problem on this topic results from the fact that when she and I got married and first came to NYC I ran across folks who had, or were trying to affect, boarding-school accents (with or without the actual educational experience to ground them, natch), of the semi-RP/BBC east-coast variety. As a basically perverse type I went through a period of making a point of speaking midwesternly, with the idea that if anyone was going to think I knew what I was talking about I wanted it to be for content not accent.... Thus ends my brief lesson on the convolutions of regionalism, status-markers, pragmatics, etc. etc.... Glad I got that off my chest. I feel much better now! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:39:25 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Hookers; Lizards; Elephants; My boss HOOKERS I owe Tom Dalzell a "hooker." This isn't much, but it's from the San Francisco Chronicle, 26 January 1919, pg. E6, col. 3: Editor The Chronicle--Sir: In your editorial of January 16 on "Senator Borah's Warning," why do you quote that old misapplied and misconstrued phrase, "like a drunken sailor?" Even in these modern progressive, patriotic and prohibition days the U. S. Navy, the Shipping Board and the American merchant marine sailor men sometimes feel the unsavory weight of an expression that was never intended to be applied to them. When the public hears that expression they must, if they would do justice to present-day U. S. seafaring men, harken back to 1762, to the days of grog and canvas and Liverpool crimps and phantom hookers with no home ports. J. D. G., U. S. Navy. Mars Island, January 18, 1919. Hookers in 1762? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- LOUNGE LIZARDS The New York Press, Oct. 29-Nov. 4, 1997, had a cover story called "Lizards' Lounge." The RHHDAS has "lounge lizard" from April 19, 1918. This is from the Milwaukee Journal, 21 March 1917, pg. 8, col. 4: RID BROADWAY OF "LOUNGE LIZARDS" New York--As a result of the murder of Mrs. Elsie Cavan Hilair, a pretty Brooklyn matron, the police of New York city expect to start a novel crusade. They intend to clean out of Broadway all "lounge lizards," "parlor snakes" and "tango pirates," names given young men who, apparently without visible means of support, lounge around the "lobster palaces" and dance. Indications were that such a man strangled Mrs. Hilair after luring her to the Martinique hotel so that he could rob her of $2,500 worth of diamonds. It is the jewel thief type that the police are after. The police believe that there are more than 100 young men in this city who "hang out" in the lobster palaces and live by cajoling wealthy women out of their jewelry or by blackmailing them. (...) This, another take on the same story, is from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Sunday Magazine, 8 April 1917, pg. 4: THE "LOUNGE LIZARD," A PARASITE BORN OF THE NEW YORK TANGO TEA RESORTS Investigation following murder of Mrs. Elsie Hilair reveals blackmailing activities of professional "escorts," many of them ex-convicts, who prey on weak-willed women--How the crew of dancing men operates. UNDER dank stones covered with fetid mosses and benath decaying logs the wood lizard is born, a repulsive reptile. In the cloying warmth of the New York tango parlors, with its sickish-sweet atmosphere, another variety of lizard has its habitat: the "lounge lizard," also a repulsive reptile. The wood lizard is as old as the world--the lounge variety is a development of the past three years. The latter variety is a parasite which preys on weak-willed women. He is known to the New York police also under the names of "parlor snake," "slippery chameleon" and "tango pirate." When the afternoon tea dance craze swept the East it brought with it the "lounge lizard." At first he was difficult to isolate, but he is readily recognized now, with his slickly parted hair, his tight-fitting trousers and spike-tailed coat. While the police have had a general idea of the activities of these parasites, it was not until the murder of Mrs. Elsie Hilair in a downtown New York hotel a few weeks ago that complete details of their work have become known, The woman was found strangled in bed and much valuable jewelry had been stolen. It was learned that for nearly two years Mrs. Hilair, the wife of a well-to-do Brooklyn man, had been a habitue of tango tea resorts, unknown to her husband, and it was while following up clews in the case that the police were enabled to make a detailed study of the "lounge lizard" and his activities. In most of the afternoon dance resorts of New York professional dancers are employed to look after unescorted women, shoppers usually, who drop in for tea and an hour or so of dancing. The professionals usually wear white or pink carnations and, under direction of a "hostess," or official introducer, select their partners. Their fixed salary is about $1.50 a day (This is 1919--ed.), but in most "parlors" they are allowed to receive tips from the women to whom they have been devoting their terpsichorean talent. One tip will occasionally amount to more than a week's salary. In other places the men are not permitted to take tips, but are allowed to eat and drink at the expense of the women guests, and they receive a percentage of the money spent under their guidance. Not all of these professionals are "lounge lizards," however. Some are satisfied with the "honest craft" which is obtained through the means outlined above. Others are blackmailers. The work of the tango lizard is done in this way. He arrives at the parlor--there are hundreds of them scattered around Greater New York--early in the afternoon. The lights are low and perfume has been sprayed in all corners of the room. Couples are gliding over the floor. About several tables are unescorted women watching the dancers and keeping time with their feet. Obviously they are anxious to dance, but they have no partners. Soon the lizard selects his victim. He makes himself as entertaining as possible, and after the dance, heads her to a table, at the same time nodding to a waiter. A cocktail is ordered. Dance follows dance, and usually cocktail follows cocktail, until the woman, probably the wife of a substantial citizen, realizes the hour and prepares to go home. The bill is called for and on this occasion is usually paid for by the "lizard." The woman departs, in many cases announcing that she had such a delightful time that she will be sure to return. The "lizard" is waiting for her. By the end of the second day he usually has gained the confidence of his victim to such a degree that she is in his power to an extent not realized by the woman. Then the blackmailing begins. When the bill for refreshments is brought the "lizard" remembers that he has forgotten to bring his money with him. So embarrassing, you know? Usually the woman, without any further suggestion, offers to lend him $10 or $20, as the need may be. He accepts it as a loan, to be repaid tomorrow. The woman is never allowed to pay a check. There is usually change coming back and the "lizard" has uses for the money. The next day nothing is said of the loan. The man has apparently forgotten all about it and the woman hasn't the nerve to ask for the money. Later on the tango lizard gets bolder. (...) Sounds like a male "Rolex girl." There is a film now playing called FOREVER TANGO. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SEEING THE ELEPHANT "Seeing the elephant" was one of 19th century America's most popular phrases. RHHDAS A-G has it from 1835. Not cited is the humor magazine, THE ELEPHANT, which began 22 January 1848. I found the phrase in numerous advertisements from 1813. I can't find them all now, but this is from the Otsego Herald, 16 October 1813, pg. 3, col. 2: Now or Never! A FEMALE ELEPHANT. Thirteen years old, upwards of eight feet high, and weighs more than _five thousand seven hundred pounds_, to be seen at JOSEPH GRIFFIN'S in the village of Cooperstown on _Thursday_, _Friday_ and _Saturday_ the 21st, 22d and 23d inst. Those who wish to gratify their curiousity by viewing the wonderful works of nature, will do well to call on either of the abovementioned days, as she positively will be removed the next morning. Perhaps the present generation may never have an opportunity of seeing an Elephant again, as this is the only one in the United States, and this, perhaps, the last visit to this place. (...) This "folk" definition is from THE COMIC ALMANAC FOR THE YEAR 1865, Hollowbush & Carey, Philadelphia, pp. 30-31: Origin of "Seeing the Elephant." Some years since, at one of the Philadelphia theatres a pageant was in rehearsal in which it was necessary to have an elephant. No elephant was to be had--The "wild beasts" were travelling, and the property man, stage director and manager almost had fits when they thought of it. Days passed in the hopeless task of trying to secure one; but at last Yankee ingenuity triumphed, as indeed it always does, and an elephant was made to order of wood, skins, paint and varnish. Thus far the matter was all very well, but as yet they found no means to make said combination travel. Here again the genius of the manager, the stage director and property man struck out, and two "broths" were duly installed as legs--Ned C--, one ofthe true and genuine "b'hoys," held the station of fore legs, and for several nights he played that part to the entire satisfaction of the managers, and the delight of the audience. The part, however, was a very tedious one, as the elephant was obliged to be on the stage about an hour, and Ned was too fond of the bottle to remain so long without "whetting his whistle," so he set his wits to work to find a way to carry a weedrop with him. The eyes of the elephant being made of two porter bottles, with the necks in. Ned conceived the brilliant idea of filling them with good stuff. This he fully carried out; and elated with success, he willingly undertook to play fore legs again. Night came on--the theatre was densely crowded with the denizens of the Quaker City--the music was played in the sweetest strains--the curtain rose and the play began. Ned and the "hind legs" marched upon the stage. The elephant was greeted with round up[on round of applause. The decorations and the trappings were gorgeous. The elephant and the prince seated upon his back, were loudly cheered. The play proceeded; the elephant was marched round and round the stage. The fore legs got dry, with frew (?) one of the corks and treated the hind legs, and then drank the health of the audience in a bumper of genuine "elephant eye" whiskey, a brand, by the way till then unknown. On went the play and on went Ned drinking. The conclusion march was to be made--the signal was given and the fore legs staggered towards the front of the stage. The conductor pulled the ears of the elephant to the right--the fore legs staggered to the left. The footlights obstructed the way and he raised his foot and stepped plump into the orchestra!--Down went the fore legs on to the leader's fiddle--over, of course, turned the elephant, sending the prince and hind legs into the middle of the pit. The managers stood horror struck--the prince and the hind legs confounded--the bozes in convulsions, the actors choking with laughter, and poor Ned, casting one look, a strange blending of drunkenness, grielf, and laughter at the scene, fled hastily from the theatre, closely followed by the leader with the wreck of his fiddle, performing various cut and thrust motions in the air. The curtain dropped on a scene behind the scenes. No more pageant--no more fore legs--but every body held their sides. Music, actors, pit, boxes and gallery, rushed from the theatre, shrieking between every breath: "HAVE YOU SEEN THE ELEPHANT?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MY BOSS This discussion of hookers, lizards, and elephants inevitably brings me to my work at the NYC Parking Violatons Bureau, and to its the chief judge. In most workplaces, if a woman comes back from a pregnancy leave of absence, you ask her how it was, if it was a boy or girl, how much it weighed, etc. You may not like her and you may not really care, but you ask anyway. A few weeks ago, I came back from an approved leave of absence. I was one of the few judges that day assigned to hearings by mail. In walked the chief judge. He walked right past me, went to the senior judge (my friend--she happens to be a black woman), chit-chatted with her. When doing my third respondent, I spotted a fake repair bill. I walked over to the senior's desk, used the computer, and found that the same plate had ten other disabled vehicle dismissals. I was the only person to catch the guy. I mentioned this, then went back to my seat. And I was thinking--what the fuck am I doing in this place? I was later told that the chief judge always ignores men and chats with women, and not to take it personally. Oh. Maybe I should have said something. HELLO! MY NAME IS BARRY POPIK! I'VE WORKED HERE FOR EIGHT YEARS! UNTIL RECENTLY, I'VE WORKED MORE HOURS THAN ANYONE IN THE ENTIRE AGENCY! AS YOU KNOW, I JUST RETURNED FROM A LEAVE OF ABSENCE THAT YOU APPROVED! UNFORTUNATELY, BOTH OF MY PARENTS ARE DEAD!! I'M DOING FINE, THANK YOU! THANKS FOR ASKING!! Hence, the title of this piece. Oh well. Life goes on. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Nov 1997 to 22 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Nov 1997 to 23 Nov 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 274 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pragmatic change in progress? (2) 2. Why = hwy or wy? (A Tale of Two Regions) 3. Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent (3) 4. whore (2) 5. Seeing the Elephant & W(h)etting your Whistle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:15:26 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? DInIs writes: I'm a /hw/-/w/ distinguisher; that is, 'whale' and 'wail' are not homophones for me. BUT - interrogative why ('Why did you do that?') is always /hw/ in my speech, and the discourse marker 'why' ('Why, it's on the the other side of the room') is invariably /w/. Any other standard speakers out there like me who have this distinction (not /hw/ - /w/ in general; lots of us old codgers from some places have that, but this specific sepaation of the two 'whys')? Well, of course it's the way you describe it. Anything else would be artificial. I can remember wondering as a kid who both hwy and wy are spelled alike. There seemed to be no pragmatic relation between them As I've read postings on this topic I've been trying to remember where, recently, I saw some piece of fiction that used the spellings 'why' and 'wye' for these two forms. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 23:23:57 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? (not everything spelled wh is pronounced with /hw/, even for folks like me who hwinny. WHOA *never* has /hw/, in particular.) arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) 'Whoa' always seemed to me to be woefully misspelled. Since I had known only horses that neighed, when I read in dialectology about horses that whinneyed or whinkered I assume they all did so with h's. I seem to recall that some neighbors had mules that they said whinneyed, with an h-, or mules in general whinneyed. But I don't remember all that clearly: that was a long time ago, longer ago than Arnold or DInIs go back to, by a couple of years. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:31:42 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Why = hwy or wy? (A Tale of Two Regions) First, /hw/ is dying in Michigan (thought you'd like to moarn). Second, you ain't got no linguistic marraige problems at all! I am a standard American English speaker from Louislville marreid to a starnge-talking Wisconsinite. Of course, I am a post-vocalic /l/ vocalizer (or even deleter in some cases). I pretty completely delete it in 'wolf,' and, although it is not a high-frequency word around our house, whenever I say it, my wife looks at me and starts to bark. DInIs At 09:36 PM 11/22/97 -0500, you ("Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU ) wrote: I've been aware for some time that my /hw-/ ~ /w-/ usage is variable; I think it fits the pattern that DInIs describes (and Garland Bills also claims) -- Well, as long as we're onto this, these things can cause great troubles in a marriage when they come up at the wrong moment, you know! I was raised in Michigan and say "hwy" (initial aspiration) for "why," and my wife, who was raised till age 10 in New York City, and thereafter by a relative in Michigan who had also been raised in New York City, says "wy" and only "wy." For fifteen years she has bugged me from time to time about the fact that I say "hwy" not "wy" (most of us probably know how it is with relationships and getting one's way etc...). It's because she notices it the most when I am asking her a question she does not want to answer. Do I need to draw a picture here? So when the discussion on a given topic reaches the point where (hwair) I am trying to get her to give a good reason for whatever (hwutevr) she is advocating at a given juncture, so's I can take it apart systematically and (of course) get my way on the issue at hand, I'll say, "Yes, but hwy?" She'll almost invariably try to derail the interrogation by responding, "Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Hwy? Wy do you put that stupid extra sound at the front and overenunciate? Wut's yer problem? Wy do you always do that?" Part of my problem on this topic results from the fact that when she and I got married and first came to NYC I ran across folks who had, or were trying to affect, boarding-school accents (with or without the actual educational experience to ground them, natch), of the semi-RP/BBC east-coast variety. As a basically perverse type I went through a period of making a point of speaking midwesternly, with the idea that if anyone was going to think I knew what I was talking about I wanted it to be for content not accent.... Thus ends my brief lesson on the convolutions of regionalism, status-markers, pragmatics, etc. etc.... Glad I got that off my chest. I feel much better now! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:36:38 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent I'm reading Rosina Lippi-Green's new book, English with an Accent, with great interest. Lots of good stuff here, but I had to pause in the section where she analyzes the Disney feature-length cartoons. I have no quarrel with the basic point that stereotyping in some cases reinforces negative stereotypes that we should all be working against. But I can't help thinking - so what does this mean?-- are we aiming for a society without any stereotypes at all? or one where we recognize that it's a human trait to stereotype and we should simply be aware of it. Should we protest when French accented characters are used for coquettes and lotharios (her example, Lumiere in Beauty and the Beast- we could add Mel Blanc's skunk Pepi la Pyoo) or can we just have a laugh at the same time acknowledging that not all Frenchmen are like that? And by the way, I think the RP speakers get the meanest parts in Disney these days: Jaffar in Aladdin, Shere Khan in The Jungle Book, Scar in The Lion King are the RP arch-villains. Note also two errors: She refers to Jock in the Lady and the Tramp p. 96 as a lower class 'rough lover,' where she means the Tramp himself (Jock is the Scotch Terrier- what accent should he have if not Scottish?) and she quotes Herman and Herman's actors' guide to dialects (which is a pretty good volume by the way, despite the stereotyping) "it can be said of the French...that when they are good, they are very, very good-- but when they are bad, they are-- Apaches." p. 98, as an instance of racism- referring to the Native American tribe in a negative way. An Apache (ah PAHSH) is a street tough of Paris (who could forget Bluto and Olive Oyl's Apache Dance, since we're on the subject of cartoons). Dale Coye Dept. of English The College of New Jersey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:06:28 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent At 02:36 PM 11/23/97 -0500, you wrote: But I can't help thinking - so what does this mean?-- are we aiming for a society without any stereotypes at all? What is the difference between an expression of cultural diversity and a stereotype? Which would an image of an African-American wearing a dashiki be? A Latino in a sombrero? Stanley Kowalski in an undershirt? Is ethnic food - like fried chicken at the Masters - something to be celebrated or surpressed? "it can be said of the French...that when they are good, they are very, very good-- but when they are bad, they are-- Apaches." p. 98, as an instance of racism- REF: Mark Twain, "The French and the Comanches" Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:18:40 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: whore Hoor is Canadian all the way. I went to college in NY State 15 miles from the Canadian border and one Ontarian said it this way to all the USAeans' amusement. Robertson Davies comments on this in one of his books. Dale Coye The College of NY ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:15:26 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: whore Minnesotans, and other North Central folk, I believe, say [hor], as do most Ohioans, as far as I can tell. I've never heard [hur], with one or two syllables. BTW, we "standard" speakers from Minnesota would never use /hw/ for 'wh.' The best/worst hypercorrection I've heard of the /hw/ came from Dan Rather in commenting on Diana, Princess of /hw/ales--twice! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:31:48 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent Interesting that this issue of stereotypes should come up this weekend. I happened to hear part of "What Do You Know" on NPR Saturday (a terrible show, but sometimes I leave the radio on after "Car Talk"), and who should be the guest of the day but Jim Crotty. He did part of his stand-up road show on slang (read "dialects") and then launched into a description of "Rap Talk," which he equated with "Ebonics." Citing the usual oppositions ('bad'=good, etc.), he then said that to do it right one should just forget about tense and use lots of "be's" instead. The audience laughter was lukewarm, fortunately. When he was asked how sales of his _How To Talk American_ were going, he answered "pretty mediocre." Please, Mr. Crotty, drop the shtik; there's lots of good scholarly stuff out there, if you really want to know something about dialects. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:43:52 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Seeing the Elephant & W(h)etting your Whistle FWIW, this from the liner notes to "Debby McClatchy with the Red City Ramblers", re the first song on this 1983 album, "Seeing the Elephant", by David Robinson: "There was no real folk music to come out of the California gold rush. Most songs were written by professional broadside composers and performed music-hall style. Traveling goups of singers, dancers and musicians set up in the canvas soloons of the mining camps or in the more permanent theater section of San Francisco. The melodies were familiar, to encourage singing along (in this case, "Boatman Dance") and the words were mainly parodies on the hardships of a miner's life. "David Robinson came from New England to San Francisco, where he put together a review called "Seeing the Elephant." This...is generally ac- knowledged as the first song written in California dealing with the rush. Men getting ready for the trail to California met with stories of huge mammoths waiting on the plains; anyone who had seen the elephant had been through it all. On the second item--curiously, coming among the flurry of contributions on why vs. wye, w(h)oa, etc. (no one mentioned "who", another orthographic WH that I think even in spelling pronunciations doesn't come out as "hwoo"), Barry writes: "The part, however, was a very tedious one, as the elephant was obliged to be on the stage about an hour, and Ned was too fond of the bottle to remain so long without "whetting his whistle," so he set his wits to wprk to find a way to carry a weedrop with him." Whether Barry's or his source's, the occurrence of "whet one's whistle" for original "wet one's whistle" is a nice innovation. I've always assumed it derives from a blend of "wet [moisten] one's whistle" and "whet [= sharpen] one's appetite", but with a boost from the near or (depending on one's dialect, as we've seen) complete phonological homophony of "wet" and "whet". Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Nov 1997 to 23 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Nov 1997 to 24 Nov 1997 There are 29 messages totalling 918 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. whore& /hw/ 2. HOW TO TALK AMERICAN (3) 3. downloadable list 4. Meredith's English (3) 5. Re[2]: vernacular (3) 6. vernacular (2) 7. Power of silence in communication (2) 8. G-string (6) 9. Merzouri 10. "Write when you get work" (2) 11. "wh" (2) 12. Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent -Reply 13. pragmatic change in progress? 14. Vanity Plate Speech ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:46:12 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: whore& /hw/ These postings remind me of two things: (1). a conversation I once overheard in a gas station in Durham, NC, fifteen years ago. One local teenager says to another, "That woman over there, she's a H." Second teenager answers, "You mean she's a W." (2). one of the silliest pieces of eye-dialect I ever saw: WHO spelled W'O (in newspaper cartoon strip in the 1980s--"Seve Roper," I believe. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:28:06 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: HOW TO TALK AMERICAN In a message dated 11/23/97 5:46:26 PM, you wrote: Interesting that this issue of stereotypes should come up this weekend. I happened to hear part of "What Do You Know" on NPR Saturday (a terrible show, but sometimes I leave the radio on after "Car Talk"), and who should be the guest of the day but Jim Crotty. He did part of his stand-up road show on slang (read "dialects") and then launched into a description of "Rap Talk," which he equated with "Ebonics." Citing the usual oppositions ('bad'=good, etc.), he then said that to do it right one should just forget about tense and use lots of "be's" instead. The audience laughter was lukewarm, fortunately. When he was asked how sales of his _How To Talk American_ were going, he answered "pretty mediocre." Please, Mr. Crotty, drop the shtik; there's lots of good scholarly stuff out there, if you really want to know something about dialects. How to respond.... Read my chapter on Black Rap speech before jumping to conclusions.... What are you supposed to say when someone asks you about Ebonics anyway? Yeah, it's cool. No, I don't think it should be taught as an official language. Yes, there seems to be a distinct way that African-Americans use language. Read Black Talk by Smitherman, Flapper 2 Rappers by Dalzell... and many others.... There seems to be a consensus that there is something unique about the way some African-Americans use the English language. But, frankly, the whole subject of Ebonics bores me to death. It bored me hearing it decried by racist Republicans at cocktail parties in Omaha, and it bores me any time it's picked over now. I am not interested in pushing stereotypes. I wasn't even interested in putting anything in the book about rap culture and so-called "black speech" because it had been so well covered elsewhere. But there's nothing I hate more than people saying "you left_____ out..." Or "why didn't you cover_____." And, the fact is, I've heard a lot of "rap talk" or "black talk." So I put something in. I'll admit at 8:00 a.m. on a Saturday morning I wasn't into talking about Ebonics. My usual "schtick" on Ebonics is that "it's a good thing. Prefer not to talk about it. Drop your judgments." Guess my guard was down. Ebonics is not Rap (though in the mainstream mind I'm appealing to it's all looped together). Almost all my rap terms in the book have very little to do with accent, or even that much with uniquely African-American grammar. Which is why a lot of these terms have passed on to the mainstream, and can be heard by "yo boys and "wiggas" all over America. However, there probably is an element of "Ebonics" infiltrating "black rap," so the two can't be completely isolated. Remember: I called my chapter "Black Rap Culture" (the implication being that Ebonics and black talk, new and old, are part of the "Culture" surrounding Black Rap)...not "Ebonics" (and actually tried to strike the joke below it--"Hooked On Ebonics"--but the editor wouldn't allow it because they saw it as a nice timely "hook"). In addition, the "bad is good" inset (in my chapter on Black Rap Culture) may be tired for you, madam, but it isn't for most Americans. This book wasn't written for dialect phreaks, but for regular folks with no linguistic training who are eager to learn of the vagaries of American speech. I've lived on the road for 12 years, visiting many of the regions and inhabiting many of the subcultures I covered in the book. I said right in the beginning this is not a scholarly tome. There are far better trained authors out there, who cover this ground better than I. My exact quote from the introduction is as follows: "there is one salient advantage to this existence" [living on the road]--"I've seen and heard a lot. I have caught the nuances of America's hilariously, and amazingly wide, linguistic heritage. Other, better trained authors can go on at great and fascinating length about the character of various expressions as they cut across linguistic bioregions, or they can trace etymology over centuries or make a cogent if a tad bit PC defense of various kinds of 'street' slang. I am not interested in nor am I up to that task. What I offer is a snapshot of a place, occupation, or culture. I don't look exclusively for dialects or accents (though they are here too). Rather, I look for colorful words and expressions, insider terms, the overall rhetoric (both spoken and unspoken). If nothing else, this book should clearly reveal how different kinds of Americans think by noting the way they talk." There's a lot more in that intro, which I encourage to read. It might even inspire you. In reference to the use of "be" in the interview, all I did was use the example of San Francisco's "We Be Sushi" restaurant to showcase a tendency in black speech that has spread beyond black culture. As in, "he be talkin' some serious trash." If you, kind woman, have not heard such speech out of the mouths of a black American, you are living in a vacuum. Not all or even the majority of black Americans talk this way, but I have heard it quite often from black Americans. In How To Talk American I called it as I heard it. And that "be the truth." The reason the audience didn't laugh at this point in the interview (discussion of Ebonics and black speech) is because I indicated by my tone the subject just didn't interest me. I do believe they found other parts of the interview quite true and hilarious, as evidenced by the flood of positive emails I received after the show, and by phone messages indicating the same. To reiterate, How To Talk American is only secondarily about dialects. For the sake of thoroughness, I tried to cover accents and dialects as best I could, given my limitations. But my main interest is in terms that are compelling independent of pronunciation--like "prairie dogging" and "that dog'll hunt" and "Monet." All this other "foo-foo" I leave up to people like you, darlin'. So, you see, my friend, the issue is more complex than you make out. I'd watch those kneejerk reactions. You have no concept what my "schtick" is. It's only partially about "accents" and "dialects." And it's a helluva lot about real experiences with real people using the American tongue (call it stereotypical, but my stories are very specific to a place and often to a specific set of individuals within a place or a subculture; I didn't do some survey, or read it in a book). But I can see quite clearly ADS is predominantly about accents and dialects (as the name implies). Which is why I might take a sabbatical from this list, which tends to focus more on the intricate minutiae of HOW we say things, rather than WHAT we, in fact, say. As for the sales of my book being "pretty mediocre," it was a JOKE, knucklehead. Lighten up! Monk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:17:37 -0500 From: Dennis and Marcia Moore dmmoore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GREENEPA.NET Subject: Re: HOW TO TALK AMERICAN I'm new to this list, so please forgive my ignorance of your book. Does it cover anything of the Appalachian dialect? I am writing a short story that has the main character speaking in an Appalachian dialect and I need to document it carefully for class. There are Appalachian speakers all around me, but I can't find much in the way of documentation! Marcia Moore At 01:28 AM 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote: As for the sales of my book being "pretty mediocre," it was a JOKE, knucklehead. Lighten up! Monk **************************************************************************** "Each friend represents a world in us, a world possibly not born until they arrive, and it is only by this meeting that a new world is born." --Anais Nin **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:40:55 -0500 From: Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: downloadable list The following question was put to me via e-mail. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Regards, David K. Barnhart From: dobe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eskimo.com (www.eskimo.com/~dobe/) Organization: ARCHIVE OF PUNNY NAMES Hi, I'm searching for a downloadable list of all English Part of Speech adverbs, verbs, etc. In other words, a dictionary sorted into the various parts of speech. I have searched but cannot find such a thing. Do you have any suggestions? dobe ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:33:29 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Meredith's English The Chicago Sun-Times contains a blurb in today's edition about James Meredith, the first African-American admitted to the University of Mississippi. According to this story, he is calling on all African-American males to give up "Black English," saying they will never become "intellectual giants" unless they learn "proper English." Meredith says he has no problem with Black English, but that his foundation will nevertheless offer English classes. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:44:52 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: vernacular Yes, Ron has indeed gone on about our inconsistencies in discussing "the vernacular" for some time and he is my main (positive) inspiration. But I wonder: if no one will listen to this distinguished old-timer, why will they care what I say?? Ah, well, I'll continue on nevertheless. The negative motivation was my shock at hearing Labov say on the radio that only poor, inner-city blacks *really* speak AAVE, that anyone who has learned to code-switch can never go back to speaking the vernacular in a way that is grammatically consistent. I shouldn't have been shocked; it is the logical extension of his idea that people who have been exposed to more dialects will mix them. It makes sense on one level (and he does have the quantitative evidence), but it bothers me on another. Like Orton's Survey of English Dialects where only the most provincial "folk" speakers were interviewed for the same reason: to obtain the "purest", uncontaminated nonstandard varieties. I guess my problem with this is twofold. 1) it shows that we are still firmly entrenched in structuralism, looking for behavior that we can write neat rules for and 2)it leads us to focus on speech that is not really the common, everyday speech for most people in our society, what I thought "vernacular" was supposed to mean. Or do I have too much of a middle-class bias here? Thank you all for your input. Terry is always refreshingly oppositional to the party line. Dennis and Sali have been a big help to me in the past and continue to give me new things to think about. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:52:02 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Meredith's English On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Greg Pulliam wrote: The Chicago Sun-Times contains a blurb in today's edition about James Meredith, the first African-American admitted to the University of Mississippi. According to this story, he is calling on all African-American males to give up "Black English," saying they will never become "intellectual giants" unless they learn "proper English." Meredith says he has no problem with Black English, but that his foundation will nevertheless offer English classes. What is this foundation? And is it the case that BE impedes only males? Thanks Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:57:26 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: vernacular Ellen Johnson writes, "The negative motivation was my shock at hearing Labov say on the radio that only poor, inner-city blacks *really* speak AAVE, that anyone who has learned to code-switch can never go back to speaking the vernacular in a way that is grammatically consistent. I shouldn't have been shocked; it is the logical extension of his idea that people who have been exposed to more dialects will mix them. It makes sense on one level (and he does have the quantitative evidence), but it bothers me on another. Like Orton's Survey of English Dialects where only the most provincial "folk" speakers were interviewed for the same reason: to obtain the "purest", uncontaminated nonstandard varieties. I guess my problem with this is twofold. 1) it shows that we are still firmly entrenched in structuralism, looking for behavior that we can write neat rules for and 2)it leads us to focus on speech that is not really the common, everyday speech for most people in our society, what I thought "vernacular" was supposed to mean. Or do I have too much of a middle-class bias here?" I find this very interesting. It reminds me of some arguably analogous controversies in anthropology, i.e., over the desire of Boasian anthropologists, in studying Native American tribes, to describe the culture and language of those tribes as if they'd never been in contact with European American society - an unlikely situation to be in, towards the end of the 19th century and subsequently - and also to devalue as corrupt, and to remove from consideration, the actual mixed and multicultural state in which most members of most tribes found themselves at the time. Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:59:28 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular Ellen Johnson wrote: The negative motivation was my shock at hearing Labov say on the radio that only poor, inner-city blacks *really* speak AAVE, that anyone who has learned to code-switch can never go back to speaking the vernacular in a way that is grammatically consistent. I shouldn't have been shocked; it is the logical extension of his idea that people who have been exposed to more dialects will mix them. snip I guess my problem with this is twofold. 1) it shows that we are still firmly entrenched in structuralism, looking for behavior that we can write neat rules for and 2)it leads us to focus on speech that is not really the common, everyday speech for most people in our society, what I thought "vernacular" was supposed to mean. Or do I have too much of a middle-class bias here? It strikes me that there's a third problem--the notion that ghetto AAVE is not a mix in the first place but is some sort of pure Ur-Sprach, and that any kind of growth or change from outside influences is some sort of corruption. It's a poor argument when it's made about the language at large, so I don't see why it's any more acceptable when applied to a dialect or vernacular of a sub-culture. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:36:05 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Re[2]: vernacular Larry Rosenwld writes: . . . the desire of Boasian anthropologists, in studying Native American tribes, to describe the culture and language of those tribes as if they'd never been in contact with European American society Both this notion and the idea of the primacy (and, for that matter, reified existence) of the uncorrupted vernacular have their roots in late-18th-century romanticism: the Noble Redskin, the Blue Lagoon State of Nature, the superiority of "the ordinary language of men talking to other men" that led Wordsworth to such marvelously poetic lines as the place in his poem "Michael" where he talks about "plain homemade cheese." And lets not forget WW's noble leechgather on the moor, either, whose means of living was to walk around in muddy ponds until leeches gathered on his feet, which he then plucked off and sold for medical use. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:42:11 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: HOW TO TALK AMERICAN In a message dated 11/24/97 4:19:07 AM, you wrote: I'm new to this list, so please forgive my ignorance of your book. Does it cover anything of the Appalachian dialect? I am writing a short story that has the main character speaking in an Appalachian dialect and I need to document it carefully for class. There are Appalachian speakers all around me, but I can't find much in the way of documentation! Marcia Moore Unfortunately, I did not cover Appalachian words or dialects in the book, though one might argue that some Southern words are found in Appalachia. And I have a large section on the South. I'm saving Appalachia and several other regions/subcultures for a sequel. Monk Author, How To Talk American ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:08:41 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Meredith's English On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Greg Pulliam wrote: The Chicago Sun-Times contains a blurb in today's edition about James Meredith, the first African-American admitted to the University of Mississippi. According to this story, he is calling on all African-American males to give up "Black English," saying they will never become "intellectual giants" unless they learn "proper English." Meredith says he has no problem with Black English, but that his foundation will nevertheless offer English classes. What is this foundation? And is it the case that BE impedes only males? Thanks Bethany I'm not sure what the foundation is. Meredith worked for a time for a (Washington-based, I think) conservative group--perhaps this is the foundation the article referred to. It's a VERY short blurb--maybe 100 words--in the "News in Brief" section of the paper. I can send the whole thing to the list when I get home this evening, if anyone wants me to do so. There's not much else in it, but maybe the wording will be helpful. I don't know why Meredith (or the article's anonymous writer) refers to males only, but that's the impression I got when I read it this morning at 6:45. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:10:11 -0500 From: Farrah Young younfl01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOLMES.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Power of silence in communication I am interested to know if anyone has done current research on the use of silence in speech as a tool of communication. I am seeking any useful information that anyone may have in regards to the power of silence in communication. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:26:59 PST From: Dan Marcus dmarcus0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COUNSEL.COM Subject: G-string Since several messages in the last few days have discussed the word 'whore,' I feel comfortable asking this: What does the 'G' in 'G-String" stand for? --Dan Marcus ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:35:18 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Merzouri Donald M. Lance enlightens me: This hook-less 3 in stressed and unstressed versions is what I'm claiming the Cracker in the story used. I also would imagine the Cracker to have quite a "drawl," i.e., lengthening of these syllables so that these pronunciations were salient for his tormenter, along with the salience of his spellings 'ternups' and 'pertaters'. Aha! Thank you. Now all is clear... or at least clearer than ternip and tater stew. With or without crackers. I haven't heard a stressed r-less mid vowel in any US dialect I would call southern. I'm not a dialectologist, so I take my ignorance for granted when dealing with those who are or who have relevant experience, such as the respected netizens of this List. In trying to hear [t'3n[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]p] in my mind's ear, all I could come up with was "Yankee"! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:36:59 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: vernacular I took up Ellen Johnson's request the other day, asking my students via email to send me their definitions of _vernacular_ without having consulted a dictionary. About 1/2 the class did so, or at least said that they didn't know what it meant. The results, which don't include (unsent) contributions from some who I'm sure do have a workable and believable definition at hand: Seven students had no idea what it meant. Quotes from the rest: I think the word vernacular means to understand something very well. It reminds me of varnish or shellac--something associated with pottery that makes it shiny or something like that. I think that this word is used to describe how words are vocally pronounced. A clear sound or voice. A tone that is pleasing to the ear. Used interchangeably with _jargon_ I've heard it in the following context: "In a vernacular sense" I send this not as an "O tempora, o morons" plaint, but as a simple contribution to Ellen's article. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:37:24 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "Write when you get work" I know this phrase as a line from Bob and Ray, the great radio comedians of the 50s and 60s. My wife knows it as a catchphrase of much broader use, though maybe only subsequent to B&R and therefore possibly derivative. Does anyone know anything of its history? (Barry, this sounds right up your alley.) Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:38:17 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: G-string At 02:26 PM 11/24/97 PST, you wrote: Since several messages in the last few days have discussed the word 'whore,' I feel comfortable asking this: What does the 'G' in 'G-String" stand for? It's as wide (sc. not very) as that bass string, in a piano, was always my impression. Is that Horne Tooke, or accurate? Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:42:07 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "wh" I'll always remember in the mid 60s seeing a graffito in NYC, around 104th St. and Broadway: YOUR MOTHER IS A HUWA That puzzled me for a very long time, till I finally "heard" it mentally with the appropriate accent and intonation to match something I had actually heard. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:44:04 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: "wh" Mark, your story about "huwa" for whore reminded me of an incident that occurred many years abo when I was stil at Michigan sTate U. Wandering through the building in which the ESL classes were held, I heard this chorus of students repeating, "woont, woont, woont" (dobl "oo" sounding like the "o" in "do." I peeked int o see that a friend of mine was teachng the class, so later on I asked what the hell he was doing with this "woont" stuff. Well (or was it "why"), says he, "I was trying to teach them how to pronounce "woont," you know, like in "I woont (won't) do it." I am from Chicago and therefore speak Standard English--I, of course, corrected him immediately. Unfortunately, he thought I spoke strangely too. At 02:42 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: I'll always remember in the mid 60s seeing a graffito in NYC, around 104th St. and Broadway: YOUR MOTHER IS A HUWA That puzzled me for a very long time, till I finally "heard" it mentally with the appropriate accent and intonation to match something I had actually heard. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ Cheers, Pat Courts ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:55:36 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU Subject: Lippi-Green's Eng with an Accent -Reply I have assigned EwaA to my English linguistics class this term as required reading. I have never, in thirty years of college teaching, seen to passionate a response to a book. These students, largely white middleclass midwesterners from small towns, find each chapter an eye-opener in new ways. And the reactions, the chagrin, the outrage, cut across the political spectrum. There is also disagreement with her, which is good to see. They're engaging another mind in a way that I have found rare. Herb Stahlke "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 11/23/97 02:36pm I'm reading Rosina Lippi-Green's new book, English with an Accent, with great interest. Lots of good stuff here, but I had to pause in the section where she analyzes the Disney feature-length cartoons. I have no quarrel with the basic point that stereotyping in some cases reinforces negative stereotypes that we should all be working against. But I can't help thinking - so what does this mean?-- are we aiming for a society without any stereotypes at all? or one where we recognize that it's a human trait to stereotype and we should simply be aware of it. Should we protest when French accented characters are used for coquettes and lotharios (her example, Lumiere in Beauty and the Beast- we could add Mel Blanc's skunk Pepi la Pyoo) or can we just have a laugh at the same time acknowledging that not all Frenchmen are like that? And by the way, I think the RP speakers get the meanest parts in Disney these days: Jaffar in Aladdin, Shere Khan in The Jungle Book, Scar in The Lion King are the RP arch-villains. Note also two errors: She refers to Jock in the Lady and the Tramp p. 96 as a lower class 'rough lover,' where she means the Tramp himself (Jock is the Scotch Terrier- what accent should he have if not Scottish?) and she quotes Herman and Herman's actors' guide to dialects (which is a pretty good volume by the way, despite the stereotyping) "it can be said of the French...that when they are good, they are very, very good-- but when they are bad, they are-- Apaches." p. 98, as an instance of racism- referring to the Native American tribe in a negative way. An Apache (ah PAHSH) is a street tough of Paris (who could forget Bluto and Olive Oyl's Apache Dance, since we're on the subject of cartoons). Dale Coye Dept. of English The College of New Jersey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:16:47 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: "Write when you get work" For what it's worth, I am as sure as I can be (which isn't, of course, very sure, memory behaving as it does)that I first heard "Write when you get work" on the Bob and Ray show. Likewise for the expression "Hang by your thumbs." Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:22:56 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: G-string Earliest(1835) OED cite for G string refer to a violin or other stringed instrument string: eg, the one for which Paganini wrote. Earliest OED cite (1876)for G string as an item of apparel refer to the string around the waist of from which a breech clout is aupported as worn by American Indians ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:23:16 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: G-string At 02:26 PM 11/24/97 PST, you wrote: Since several messages in the last few days have discussed the word 'whore,' I feel comfortable asking this: What does the 'G' in 'G-String" stand for? I always assumed it was "genitals." Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:09:56 -0500 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: G-string On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Dan Marcus wrote: Since several messages in the last few days have discussed the word 'whore,' I feel comfortable asking this: What does the 'G' in 'G-String" stand for? Granny: refers to the "napkin" holder originally. ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens English Dept tel: (740) 593-2783 fax: (740) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:01:56 -0500 From: Gregory Roberts robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Power of silence in communication I am interested to know if anyone has done current research on the use of silence in speech as a tool of communication. I am seeking any useful information that anyone may have in regards to the power of silence in communication. I would look in the following Jaworski, Adam (1993). The Power of Silence: Social and Pragmatic Perspectives. Sage Publications, Newbury Park. gfr Gregory F. Roberts "There is water at the bottom of the ocean." Georgetown University -David Byrne robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu www.georgetown.edu/users/robertsg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:17:59 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: G-string Since several messages in the last few days have discussed the word 'whore,' I feel comfortable asking this: What does the 'G' in 'G-String" stand for? --Dan Marcus "G" for genitals? I've also seen it spelled "gee string" -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), _Internet Power Toolkit_(Ventana) Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:50:11 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: pragmatic change in progress? In case Ron is still interested in responses to his original question about generational usage (or lack thereof) of "Why,..." I remember both of my grandmothers using it, and I remember myself as a child also using "If...why,...." as an equivalent of "If...then...." I don't think I've used the word in any but the interrogative sense since my childhood (i.e., about 50 years ago). I don't think I made a conscious decision to abandon the other 'why's--they probably just fell into disuse because I didn't hear anyone else using them. I am also a w/wh distinguisher, but I don't remember whether I used /w-/ in the non-interrogative 'why'. I also remember at least one of my grandmothers, and her sisters, using "Why,..." as an introduction to an expression of indignation or mock indignation: "Why, the very idea!" I'm pretty sure I can still hear her using this specific expression with /hw/. Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:55:40 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Vanity Plate Speech This is from the New York Post, 24 November 1997, pg. 5, cols. 2-6: NYSEZ 671BAD WRDZR UNFIT4 LICENS PL8S DMV bans cars' vanity profanity by Gregg Birnbaum ALBANY--The state Department of Motor Vehicles has banned more than 650 vanity license plates--everything from ASS to ZBALLS--as unfit for public consumption, the Post has learned. The never-before-revealed roster of outlawed license plate combinations is full of vicious racial and ethnic slurs, curse words and lots of sexy stuff. (...) Legend at the DMV also has it that someone tried to get the plate HOOKER, but was sent packing because it's slang for prostitute. It turned out Hooker was the driver's family name, one that traced back to a well-known Civil War general, Joseph Hooker. After a court battle, the HOOKER plate was approved. But it has since been put back on the taboo list. DMV officials insist that banning certain plates is not a free-speech issue. "You don't have the right to use the F-word on a license plate," Filieau said. "You can buy a bumper sticker if you want to do that." WHAT? No "F-WORD" on a license plate! Wait'll I tell that to-- Here's a list from the newspaper: Ethnic and racial: JAP, JEW, JOO, KKK, NAZI, MAFIA, MAFEA, SSMAN, PISANO Sex-related: BRA, CARNAL, DIGSEX, EAT (C'mon! My mother could've driven to "eat"--ed.), FORPLY, GAYGUY, GAYLIB, HOOKER, HORNY, INLUST, INHEAT, KISSIT, LUVSEX, ORGY, PERVERT, PIMP, PLAY ("Play" is banned? They like "work"?--ed.), SCREW, SEX, SEXY, SEXHOG, SEXPOT, STUD, SUPSEX, TURNON, 10INCHES Offensive words: ASS, SOB, HELL, OHEL, PISHER, PSTOFF, PISS, BITCH, NOSHT (No shit, but this could be someone who likes to nosh--ed.), BRDSHT, VOMIT, TOILET, TOYLET, STUFIT, BASTARD, KISSOFF, CRAMIT Sacreligious: GOD, IMGOD, JESUS, UBGOD, GODGOD, HEYGOD, OMYGOD (I like that--ed.), UJESUS Police and government: COP, DMV, FBI, KOP, FDNY, FIRE, NYCPD, DEPUTY, KGBCIA, OINKPD, PIG, POLICE, POLIZE, PQLICE, TOPCOP, USARMY, USGOVT, USMAIL, USNAVY Other: DRUGSALE, KILLER (Sorry, O. J.--ed.), JUNKIE, SUICID, PHU, DUPA, OUTS, MOX This concerns my job--I know of some others. The state issues MD (doctor) and DDS (dentist) plates and handicapped number plates, and it's illegal to have anything that looks like them (MD123 of DDS123, for example). I once gave a hearing to a person who had the plate 96TEARS. He performed on that original song, "Ninety-Six Tears"--his only hit. He was a really nice guy, but I found him guilty. I thought he was gonna cry.... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Nov 1997 to 24 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Nov 1997 to 25 Nov 1997 There are 28 messages totalling 845 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) (10) 2. Q. T. 3. VERNACULAR MISHAPS (2) 4. Power of silence in communication 5. autoerotic asphyxiation (3) 6. Auto-Eroticism Asphyxiation Conference 7. Reference Question (3) 8. What Car Names Mean 9. RE VERNACULAR MISHAPS (2) 10. run-arounds 11. G-string (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:05:43 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) Is "auto-erotic asphyxiation" a new term? INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence died. Today's NY Post (pg. 16, col. 1) has this: Cops initally called it a suicide, but now say the death might have been caused when an act known as "auto-erotic asphyxiation" backfired. Auto-erotic asphyxiation is a dangerous way of enhancing sexual gratification that involves masturbating while cutting off the air supply, often by hanging. (Kids, don't try this at home--ed.) "Several friends of (Hutchence) have suggested that he has been involved in kinky sex over the years, and so we are exploring the possibility it is an auto-erotic death," a police source told The Post. What a concept. "Auto-erotic asphyxiation." Sounds like someone who is deathly in love with a car. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:54:30 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Q. T. I thought of adding "Q.T." (Quiet!) to that posting yesterday about my boss, but whatever. The earliest "Q.T." anyone has found is from 1870. This is from the New Orleans Picayune, 21 January 1843, pg. 2, col. 1: CRIMINAL COURT.--The gang of juvenile rowdies, who styled themselves the Q.T. club, and who kicked up a "confounded fuss generally" at the Dutch ball last summer, were yesterday being tried before the Criminal Court for the offence. A modern use of Q.T. can be found in this item from the Aerial Age Weekly, 5 May 1919, pg. 404: Private "C.C.Pill" inserted the following brief notation in his diary of his pal's most exciting experience in France: "A.B.P. in the S.O.S. at A.S.P.C. No. 2 went A.W.O.L. on the Q.T. He was nabbed by the M.P. at A.P.O. 702 at 8:05 P.M. His C.O. was O.D. at the time, so he got a C.M.P.D.Q. Charge 94th A. of W., Par. 41144, G.O. 1313. Findings G. as C. Sentence, 2/3 of 2 and 30 at K.P. The O.I.C. forbade him to go to the A.R.C. or Y.M.C.A. In short, he was S.O.L."--_E. and V., 460th A.S., in "Yank Talk."_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 02:28:53 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) At 12:05 AM 11/25/97 -0500, you (Barry Popik) wrote: Is "auto-erotic asphyxiation" a new term? This term has been in use in the media for at least ten years, according to my recollection. Someone with NEXIS or the like could run a search. Or, maybe try looking through old runs of pornographic magazines that would be sure to mention the term and the practice in the 80's or maybe earlier -- if you can bring yourself to do so, I mean.... But not knowing this is perfectly OK, Barry, especially working in traffic court -- combining this with a traffic violation, moving or not, would really take some doing. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 03:38:15 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: VERNACULAR MISHAPS Some decent yuks.... Any other examples let me know..... Jim Crotty, How to Talk American 1. Coors put its slogan, "Turn it loose," into Spanish, where it was read as "Suffer from diarrhea". 2. Clairol introduced the "Mist Stick", a curling iron, into Germany only to find out that "mist" is slang for manure. Not too many people had use for the "manure stick". 3. Scandinavian vacuum manufacturer Electrolux used the following in an American campaign: Nothing sucks like an Electrolux. 4. In Chinese, the Kentucky Fried Chicken slogan "finger-lickin' good" came out as "eat your fingers off". 5. The American slogan for Salem cigarettes, "Salem-Feeling Free", was translated into the Japanese market as "When smoking Salem, you will feel so refreshed that your mind seems to be free and empty". 6. When Gerber started selling baby food in Africa, they used the same packaging as in the US, with the Caucasian baby on the label. Later they learned that in Africa, companies routinely put pictures on the label of what's inside, since most people can't read English. 7. Colgate introduced a toothpaste in France called Cue, the name of a notorious porno magazine. 8. An American T-shirt maker in Miami printed shirts for the Spanish market which promoted the Pope's visit. Instead of "I saw the Pope" (el Papa), the shirts read "I saw the potato" (la papa). 9. In Italy, a campaign for Schweppes Tonic Water translated the name into "Schweppes Toilet Water". 10. Pepsi's "Come alive with the Pepsi Generation" translated into "Pepsi brings your ancestors back from the grave", in Chinese. 11. We all know about GM's Chevy Nova meaning "it won't go" in Spanish markets, but did you know that Ford had a similar problem in Brazil with the Pinto? Pinto was Brazilian slang for "tiny male genitals". Ford renamed the automobile Corcel, meaning "horse". 12. Hunt-Wesson introduced Big John products in French Canada as Gros Jos. Later they found out that in slang it means "big breasts". 13. Frank Perdue's chicken slogan, "it takes a strong man to make a "tender chicken" was translated into Spanish as "it takes an aroused man to make a chicken affectionate". 14. When Parker Pen marketed a ball-point pen in Mexico, its ads were supposed to have read, "it won't leak in your pocket and embarrass you". Instead, the company thought that the word "embarazar" (to impregnate) meant to embarrass, so the ad read: "It won't leak in your pocket and make you pregnant". 15. The Coca-Cola name in China was first read as "Ke-kou-ke- la", meaning "Bite the wax tadpole" or "female horse stuffed with wax", depending on the dialect. Coke then researched 40,000 characters to find a phonetic equivalent "ko-kou-ko-le", translating into "happiness in the mouth". 16. In Central American Spanish, the name of the Mexican restaurant chain "Chi-Chi's" literally means "titties." 17. Probably the most famous of all is John Kennedy's announcement to the people of Berlin, "Ich bin ein Berliner!" JFK thought he said, "I am a citizen of Berlin!" What he *really* said was, "I am a jelly doughnut!" ("Berliner" is German for "jelly doughnut".) 18. The Trump Shuttle (Donald Trump's airline) caused a lot of guffaws to traveling Brits where "Trump" is another way of saying "fart"! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:45:49 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) I understand that cops call such cases "gaspers." On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: Is "auto-erotic asphyxiation" a new term? INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence died. Today's NY Post (pg. 16, col. 1) has this: Cops initally called it a suicide, but now say the death might have been caused when an act known as "auto-erotic asphyxiation" backfired. Auto-erotic asphyxiation is a dangerous way of enhancing sexual gratification that involves masturbating while cutting off the air supply, often by hanging. (Kids, don't try this at home--ed.) "Several friends of (Hutchence) have suggested that he has been involved in kinky sex over the years, and so we are exploring the possibility it is an auto-erotic death," a police source told The Post. What a concept. "Auto-erotic asphyxiation." Sounds like someone who is deathly in love with a car. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:56:11 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) In the film _Rising Sun_, people who take pleasure in this sort of thing are called "gaspers," I think. Best, LR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:43:36 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) Was present enough in the public vocabulary, or at least considered so by the producers/writers of _NYPD Blue_ for them to do an hour-long gag (if you'll pardon the pun) on it in a 1995 episode. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:56:21 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) A friend of mine in the psychology department has been studying the phenomenon for several years now. His research has convinced him that many of the suicides reported in prisons are actually failed attempts at auto-eroticism asphyxiation. He was trying to put together a conference at which world authorities would address the topic for law enforcement officials, but the faculty development committee did not want to fund the preparatory process for such a salacious meeting. Wayne Glowka Is "auto-erotic asphyxiation" a new term? INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence died. Today's NY Post (pg. 16, col. 1) has this: Cops initally called it a suicide, but now say the death might have been caused when an act known as "auto-erotic asphyxiation" backfired. Auto-erotic asphyxiation is a dangerous way of enhancing sexual gratification that involves masturbating while cutting off the air supply, often by hanging. (Kids, don't try this at home--ed.) "Several friends of (Hutchence) have suggested that he has been involved in kinky sex over the years, and so we are exploring the possibility it is an auto-erotic death," a police source told The Post. What a concept. "Auto-erotic asphyxiation." Sounds like someone who is deathly in love with a car. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:16:46 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Power of silence in communication You need (at least) Adam Jaworski, 'The Power of Silence' (Sage, 1993) and Tannen and Saville-Troike (eds), 'Perspectives on Silence,' Ablex 1985 (which contains a short annotated bibliography). DInIS I am interested to know if anyone has done current research on the use of silence in speech as a tool of communication. I am seeking any useful information that anyone may have in regards to the power of silence in communication. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:40:45 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: autoerotic asphyxiation The earliest cite I can find for this is New York Times, March 31, 1984. In 1981 Hustler magazine published a how-to article on this practice which led to some lawsuits by parents whose kids died trying it out; the article was entitled "Orgasm of Death." Ann Landers' column produced a letter from a parent about the practice in the late '80's. Auto(-)erotic asphyxiation and autoerotic asphyxia got a lot of press in Britain in Feb. 1994 when a Conservative MP accidentally killed himself trying it. I can only find gasper used for someone who practices this in reference to the Michael Crichton novel/movie; however, the databases turn up too much static on gasper (a common colloquialism for "cigarette" in Britain) to make searching for this practical (given my only motive was morbid curiosity). One slang term offered for the practice is scarfing . Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:41:52 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Auto-Eroticism Asphyxiation Conference Well, folks, it turns out that despite a previous lack of local support there will be an auto-eroticism asphyxiation conference here at GC&SU next year. I invite you all to attend and will send out the information as soon as it is available. In other local news, the prison guard who failed last year in a jury trial to be convicted on felony charges of having sex with female prison inmates was declared by a bench judgment last Friday as the father of the child of a woman who got pregnant during her prison term. The lawyer for the woman said that the genetic paternity tests were 99.97% accurate. . . . Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:15:42 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) I searched Lexis/Nexis, Medline, and one or two other databases for the term _auto-erotic asphyxiation_. The earliest usage I can find is in the case of Herceg v. Hustler Magazine, Inc., 565 F. Supp. 802 (1983). The ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:49:04 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) The most detailed discussion I could find via Nexis was a New York Times story on March 27, 1984, which addresses the increasing concerns voiced by mental health professionals about the increasingly popular practice. We learn that victims are generally young men, but range in age from 9 to 77 and include some women as well; parents should be wary if their sons appear to have rope burns around their necks. (Some of you may recall an earlier description of the practice from William Burroughs's _Naked Lunch_, and it's also depicted in a couple of movies, as noted in the article.) Oh, and if anyone's interested, Hustler won that lawsuit on first amendment grounds. Here's a characteristic passage from the Times piece: In their recently published book, ''Autoerotic Fatalities'' (Lexington Books), Mr. Hazelwood and his colleagues also described cases in which other people had rescued unconscious victims of autoerotic asphyxiation, but the rescue had occurred too late to prevent permanent brain damage. ''Most people don't realize how easy it is to lose consciousness when pressing on the neck,'' Dr. Robert Litman, a psychiatrist and suicidologist in Los Angeles who studied the problem a decade ago, explained in an interview. ''There is an extremely sensitive area of the carotid artery,'' he said, referring to the main artery in the neck that feeds the brain. ''Just turn the wrong way and you become unconscious. You may do it right 40 times, but on the 41st, you may make a wrong move and die.'' Let this serve as a warning to all of us. For those seeking more detailed information, the book mentioned--by Robert Hazelwood (wasn't he the captain of the ill-fated Exxon Valdez?) and his colleagues Park Elliot Dietz and Ann Wolbert Burgess (1983) sounds like a good place to start. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:36:09 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Reference Question I'm compiling an informal, introductory bibliography for my HEL class next spring and find in my notes a reference to a book on modern English grammar by "Jeff Kaplan." No title. I've looked all over for this book and found several Jeffrey Kaplans in online library catalogues but no linguists by that name and no such book. Anyone have any idea whether such a book exists? Thanks. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:00 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) In a message dated 11/25/97 5:27:30 AM, Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: What a concept. "Auto-erotic asphyxiation." Sounds like someone who is deathly in love with a car. This is something I'm already well aware of. A friend died of it years ago under similar circumstances: found hung, police said it was suicide, everyone was shocked 'cause the person was not depressed and seemed perfectly fine the night before, police do some research, change tune. Since that friend's death years ago, my wife has guessed a number of auto-erotic deaths. As soon as we heard the details surrounding Hutchence's death, my wife was sure it was auto-erotic asphyxiation. Sounds like she was right. Gareth -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam), _Internet Power Toolkit_(Ventana) Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:05:03 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: What Car Names Mean Well, the following falls generally under the topic of semiotics, I guess. I have a Ford Aerostar Van (mocha) and a fading Probe (strawberry). I used to drive a Miata. What does this all mean? Wayne Glowka The Statements Car Owners are Really Making: -------------------------------------------- Acura Integra - I have always wanted to own the Buick of sports cars. Acura Legend - I'm too bland for German cars. Acura NSX - I am impotent. Audi 90 - I enjoy putting out engine fires. Buick Park Avenue - I am older than 34 of the 50 states. Cadillac Eldorado - I am a very good Mary Kay salesman. Cadillac Seville - I am a pimp. Chevrolet Camaro - I enjoy beating the hell out of people. Chevrolet Chevette - I like seeing people's reactions when I tell them I have a 'Vette. Chevrolet Corvette - I'm in a mid-life crisis. Chevrolet El Camino - I am leading a militia to overthrow the government. Chrysler Cordoba - I dig the rich Corinthian leather. Datsun 280ZI - I have a kilo of cocaine in my wheel-well. Dodge Dart - I teach third grade special education and I voted for Eisenhower. Dodge Daytona - I delivered pizza for four years to get this car. Ferrari Testarossa - I am known to be in therapy . Ford Fairmont - (See Dodge Dart) Ford Mustang - I slow down to 85 in school zones. Ford Crown Victoria - I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them. Geo Storm - I will start the 11th grade in the fall. Geo Tracker - I will start the 12th grade in the fall. Honda del Sol - I have always said, half a convertible is better than no convertible at all. Honda Civic - I have just graduated and have no credit. Honda Accord - I lack any originality and am basically a lemming. Infiniti Q45 - I am a physician with 17 malpractice suits pending. Isuzu Impulse - I do not give a damn about J.D. Power or his reports. Jaguar XJ6 - I am so rich I will pay 60K for a car that is in the shop 280 days per year. Sephia - I learned nothing from the failure of Daihatsu Corp. Lamborghini Countach - I only have one testicle. Lincoln Town Car - I live for bingo and covered dish suppers. Mercury Grand Marquis - (See above) Mercedes 500SL - I will beat you up if you ask me for an autograph. Mercedes 560SEL - I have a daughter named Bitsy and a son named Cole. Mazda Miata - I do not fear being decapitated by an eighteen wheeler. MGB - I am dating a mechanic. Mitsubishi Diamante - I don't know what it means either. Nissan 300ZX - I have yet to complete my divorce proceedings. Oldsmobile Cutlass - I just stole this car and I'm going to make a fortune off the parts. Peugeot 505 Diesel - I am on the EPA's Ten Most Wanted List. Plymouth Neon - I sincerely enjoy doing the Macarena. Pontiac Trans AM - I have a switchblade in my sock. Porsche 911 Turbo - I wear a hairpiece. Porsche 944 - I am dating big-haired women that otherwise would be inaccessible to me. Rolls Royce Silver Shadow - I think Pat Buchanan is a tad bit too liberal. Saturn SC2 - (See Honda Civic) Subaru Legacy - I have always wanted a Japanese car even more inferior than Isuzu. Toyota Camry - I am still in the closet. Volkswagen Beetle - I still watch Partridge Family reruns. Volkswagen Cabriolet - I am out of the closet. Volkswagen Golf (Tan) - I am a loser with a piss ass job, a raging lunatic and smelly breathed geeky wimp. Volkswagen GTI - I am very intelligent, good looking, great disposition, down to earth, and hung like a yak. Volkswagen Microbus - I am tripping. Volvo 740 Wagon - I am frightened of my wife ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:08:26 -0500 From: jerry miller millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) I did a lengthy feature story on this subject back in the late '70s or early '80s for the Marion (Ind.) Chronicle-Tribune. The local coroners referred to the phenomenon simply as "autoerotic death," but, of course, that always involved asphyxiation. The story evolved from one coroner's concern that many of the cases -- usually involving teenagers -- were being mislabeled as suicides, which, interestingly enough, was upsetting some of the parents of the victims, who apparently felt that suicide was more degrading in their minds than autoerotic death, which was basically an accidental death. I was later contacted by a man, a former FBI employee, I believe, who was writing a book on the subject and wanted to use excerpts from my piece. At the moment, I can't find his name, and I don't know if the book was ever finished and published. Jerry Miller At 10:49 AM 11/25/97 EST, you wrote: The most detailed discussion I could find via Nexis was a New York Times story on March 27, 1984, which addresses the increasing concerns voiced by mental health professionals about the increasingly popular practice. We learn that victims are generally young men, but range in age from 9 to 77 and include some women as well; parents should be wary if their sons appear to have rope burns around their necks. (Some of you may recall an earlier description of the practice from William Burroughs's _Naked Lunch_, and it's also depicted in a couple of movies, as noted in the article.) Oh, and if anyone's interested, Hustler won that lawsuit on first amendment grounds. Here's a characteristic passage from the Times piece: In their recently published book, ''Autoerotic Fatalities'' (Lexington Books), Mr. Hazelwood and his colleagues also described cases in which other people had rescued unconscious victims of autoerotic asphyxiation, but the rescue had occurred too late to prevent permanent brain damage. ''Most people don't realize how easy it is to lose consciousness when pressing on the neck,'' Dr. Robert Litman, a psychiatrist and suicidologist in Los Angeles who studied the problem a decade ago, explained in an interview. ''There is an extremely sensitive area of the carotid artery,'' he said, referring to the main artery in the neck that feeds the brain. ''Just turn the wrong way and you become unconscious. You may do it right 40 times, but on the 41st, you may make a wrong move and die.'' Let this serve as a warning to all of us. For those seeking more detailed information, the book mentioned--by Robert Hazelwood (wasn't he the captain of the ill-fated Exxon Valdez?) and his colleagues Park Elliot Dietz and Ann Wolbert Burgess (1983) sounds like a good place to start. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:07:25 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Reference Question I'm compiling an informal, introductory bibliography for my HEL class next spring and find in my notes a reference to a book on modern English grammar by "Jeff Kaplan." No title. I've looked all over for this book and found several Jeffrey Kaplans in online library catalogues but no linguists by that name and no such book. Anyone have any idea whether such a book exists? Thanks. Alan B. Kaplan, Jeffery P. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice, 1989. (Watch out. It has the confounding n-bar.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:34:55 EST From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: autoerotic asphyxiation i had a dear friend who was presumed to have died from this practice in 1963, and i'm pretty sure "autoerotic asphyxiation" was the term the police used. (it might have been suicide. but i remember the expression; it was the first time i'd heard of it, or the practice it labels.) arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:43:48 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Reference Question That's the one. Thanks. Alan B. Wayne Glowka wrote: Kaplan, Jeffery P. English Grammar: Principles and Facts. Englewood Cliffs: Prentice, 1989. (Watch out. It has the confounding n-bar.) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:12:05 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE VERNACULAR MISHAPS I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is another one of those joke lists that has been forwarded from here to kingdom come. I got it twice today, and I'll probably get it a dozen more times before Christmas. I'm not the list-owner or admin, so you don't have to listen to me, but I wonder if you could not forward this kind of stuff to the list? Below is a partial list of emails that I get all the time from folks just trying to be helpful and friendly. Clemson Wedding Revenge American Cancer Society 3 cents per message Good Times Virus Craig Shergold Cancer Cards Steven Wright/George Carlin jokes (most are actually from other comedians) Mouse Balls Microsoft Buys Catholic Church (as much as I hate to get it, still very funny) Neiman-Marcus Cookie Recipe Pen-Pal Virus Thanks tons. No offense. Meant. Taken? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Jim Crotty [Advertising screw-ups, etc., deleted] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:00:30 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: run-arounds I just heard the noun "run-arounds" used to describe cuticle infections. Any one else familiar with this? Jessie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:22:36 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: autoerotic asphyxiation Arnold Zwicky writes, i had a dear friend who was presumed to have died from this practice in 1963, and i'm pretty sure "autoerotic asphyxiation" was the term the police used. (it might have been suicide. but i remember the expression; it was the first time i'd heard of it, or the practice it labels.) It's becoming clearer and clearer that even the identification of masturbation as a safe-sex practice is strongly context-dependent. Larry, on behalf of pragmaticists everywhere ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:32:32 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: G-string Ode on the G(ee) string, cont'd: We don't seem to have pinned it down, do we? The earliest citations all seem to refer to the article of (male?) Native Americans' attire and those earliest references all have the fuller spelling, gee(-)string. (These are from the 1870's through the turn of the century.) The first "G-string" is cited (or should I say, barely sighted) in 1891: "Some of the boys wore only 'G-strings' (as, for some reason, the breech-clout [sic] is commonly called on the prairie)." (Harper's Magazine) The parenthetical in that citations suggests any euphemistic understanding (G for genitalia, or whatever) was not necessarily standard (compare "gee" for "Jesus"), and the later transfer of the term (I think more often with the G string orthography) doesn't have a cite earlier than 1936 (Dos Passos), although I expect the OED might have missed the relevant publications for that use (= 'a similar piece of material worn by show-girls, strip-tease artists, etc.'). My guess is that "gee string" came first, although I can't find any of the 10 or so listings for nominal or verbal "gee" that offer a plausible derivation; then "G string" re- sults from a loss of transparency (what IS a gee, anyway?), driven by the existence of the musical item, that slender and dainty fourth string on the violin, third string on the cello, guitar, or viola, or first string on the bass (most of which I just learned from the OED entry). But what was that ur-gee? --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:52:33 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: G-string Ode on the G(ee) string, cont'd: We don't seem to have pinned it down, do we? The earliest citations all seem to refer to the article of (male?) Native Americans' attire and those New York columnist Earl Wilson (1940s) did a piece on the G-string. I recall reading it in his book in the late forties. Sorry to have forgotten the title, but an aging memory has its problems. He wrote that the G-string on the bass was low, hence the name of the article worn by showgirls because it was worn low. He also commented about the article appearing in low places. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:42:33 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: VERNACULAR MISHAPS Below is a partial list of emails that I get all the time from folks just trying to be helpful and friendly. Clemson Wedding Revenge American Cancer Society 3 cents per message Good Times Virus Craig Shergold Cancer Cards Steven Wright/George Carlin jokes (most are actually from other comedians) Mouse Balls Microsoft Buys Catholic Church (as much as I hate to get it, still very funny) Neiman-Marcus Cookie Recipe Pen-Pal Virus And then there's "Gen-X office jargon" (or other similar titles) which is actually jargon/slang ripped off directly from my Jargon Watch column. Obviously, the terms are not mine, but the definitions are. It's been floating around net.humor mailings for over a year and has shown up in everything from The Economist to the Washington Post (twice!) to the Microsoft corporate newsletter...without attribution, of course. Gareth -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:52:37 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: G-string Norman Roberts writes, New York columnist Earl Wilson (1940s) did a piece on the G-string. I recall reading it in his book in the late forties. Sorry to have forgotten the title, but an aging memory has its problems. He wrote that the G-string on the bass was low, hence the name of the article worn by showgirls because it was worn low. He also commented about the article appearing in low places. Ah, Earl Wilson. There's a name to conjure with; I remember his columns in the New York Post when I was growing up in the fifties, back when it was a progressive tabloid rag instead of a right-wing tabloid rag. But this sounds like an urban legend (if I may use the term anachronistically). If the G-strings of the showgirls were morphologically and functionally analogous to those (or to the gee strings) of those 19th century male Native Americans, the explanatory force of the Earl of Broadway's proposal strikes me as, shall we say, a mite scanty. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:34:17 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: RE VERNACULAR MISHAPS In a message dated 11/25/97 2:08:45 PM, you wrote: I hope you don't mind me saying so, but this is another one of those joke lists that has been forwarded from here to kingdom come. I got it twice today, and I'll probably get it a dozen more times before Christmas. I'm not the list-owner or admin, so you don't have to listen to me, but I wonder if you could not forward this kind of stuff to the list? Below is a partial list of emails that I get all the time from folks just trying to be helpful and friendly. Clemson Wedding Revenge American Cancer Society 3 cents per message Good Times Virus Craig Shergold Cancer Cards Steven Wright/George Carlin jokes (most are actually from other comedians) Mouse Balls Microsoft Buys Catholic Church (as much as I hate to get it, still very funny) Neiman-Marcus Cookie Recipe Pen-Pal Virus Thanks tons. No offense. Meant. Taken? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Jim Crotty [Advertising screw-ups, etc., deleted] Yeah, no problem.... I hesitated sending it, but didn't quite know why. Now I know why..... Monk ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Nov 1997 to 25 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Nov 1997 to 26 Nov 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) 2. What Car Names Mean (3) 3. Birthday and Christmas slang 4. autoerotic asphyxiation 5. RE run-arounds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:29:11 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Auto-erotic asphyxiation (new term?) In a message dated 11/25/97 8:06:59 AM, you wrote: Let this serve as a warning to all of us. For those seeking more detailed information, the book mentioned--by Robert Hazelwood (wasn't he the captain of the ill-fated Exxon Valdez?) and his colleagues Park Elliot Dietz and Ann Wolbert Burgess (1983) sounds like a good place to start. Larry *Rumor has it Hazelwood was "gasping" during the crash. Monk *this statement is fictitious ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:39:35 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: What Car Names Mean In a message dated 11/25/97 10:06:05 AM, you wrote: Well, the following falls generally under the topic of semiotics, I guess. I have a Ford Aerostar Van (mocha) and a fading Probe (strawberry). I used to drive a Miata. What does this all mean? Wayne Glowka The Statements Car Owners are Really Making: -------------------------------------------- Acura Integra - I have always wanted to own the Buick of sports cars. Acura Legend - I'm too bland for German cars. Acura NSX - I am impotent. Audi 90 - I enjoy putting out engine fires. Buick Park Avenue - I am older than 34 of the 50 states. Cadillac Eldorado - I am a very good Mary Kay salesman. Cadillac Seville - I am a pimp. Chevrolet Camaro - I enjoy beating the hell out of people. Chevrolet Chevette - I like seeing people's reactions when I tell them I have a 'Vette. Chevrolet Corvette - I'm in a mid-life crisis. Chevrolet El Camino - I am leading a militia to overthrow the government. Chrysler Cordoba - I dig the rich Corinthian leather. Datsun 280ZI - I have a kilo of cocaine in my wheel-well. Dodge Dart - I teach third grade special education and I voted for Eisenhower. Dodge Daytona - I delivered pizza for four years to get this car. Ferrari Testarossa - I am known to be in therapy . Ford Fairmont - (See Dodge Dart) Ford Mustang - I slow down to 85 in school zones. Ford Crown Victoria - I enjoy having people slow to 55mph and change lanes when I pull up behind them. Geo Storm - I will start the 11th grade in the fall. Geo Tracker - I will start the 12th grade in the fall. Honda del Sol - I have always said, half a convertible is better than no convertible at all. Honda Civic - I have just graduated and have no credit. Honda Accord - I lack any originality and am basically a lemming. Infiniti Q45 - I am a physician with 17 malpractice suits pending. Isuzu Impulse - I do not give a damn about J.D. Power or his reports. Jaguar XJ6 - I am so rich I will pay 60K for a car that is in the shop 280 days per year. Sephia - I learned nothing from the failure of Daihatsu Corp. Lamborghini Countach - I only have one testicle. Lincoln Town Car - I live for bingo and covered dish suppers. Mercury Grand Marquis - (See above) Mercedes 500SL - I will beat you up if you ask me for an autograph. Mercedes 560SEL - I have a daughter named Bitsy and a son named Cole. Mazda Miata - I do not fear being decapitated by an eighteen wheeler. MGB - I am dating a mechanic. Mitsubishi Diamante - I don't know what it means either. Nissan 300ZX - I have yet to complete my divorce proceedings. Oldsmobile Cutlass - I just stole this car and I'm going to make a fortune off the parts. Peugeot 505 Diesel - I am on the EPA's Ten Most Wanted List. Plymouth Neon - I sincerely enjoy doing the Macarena. Pontiac Trans AM - I have a switchblade in my sock. Porsche 911 Turbo - I wear a hairpiece. Porsche 944 - I am dating big-haired women that otherwise would be inaccessible to me. Rolls Royce Silver Shadow - I think Pat Buchanan is a tad bit too liberal. Saturn SC2 - (See Honda Civic) Subaru Legacy - I have always wanted a Japanese car even more inferior than Isuzu. Toyota Camry - I am still in the closet. Volkswagen Beetle - I still watch Partridge Family reruns. Volkswagen Cabriolet - I am out of the closet. Volkswagen Golf (Tan) - I am a loser with a piss ass job, a raging lunatic and smelly breathed geeky wimp. Volkswagen GTI - I am very intelligent, good looking, great disposition, down to earth, and hung like a yak. Volkswagen Microbus - I am tripping. Volvo 740 Wagon - I am frightened of my wife This is brilliant.... Where did you get this Wayne? Monk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:50:28 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Birthday and Christmas slang I still haven't taken my sabbatical.... The "gasper" discussion roped me back in.... Question for yunz: does anyone know of any Happy Birthday slang?... For example, alternate ways of saying "Happy Birthday" in different parts of the country.... Or birthday-related slang in general.... Also, looking for Christmas-related slang.... Thanks (Ralph) Bunche... Jim Crotty Author, How To Talk American Publisher, Monk, the Mobile Magazine www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:04:32 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: autoerotic asphyxiation _Autoerotic Fatalities_ by Robert R. Hazelwood (FBI, who may single handedly have created profiling), Park Elliot Dietz (forensic psychiatrist - think Polly Klaas, Hinkley, & maybe the Unabomber-, School of Law & Medicine, Univ. of Virginia), & Ann Wolbert Burgess (School of Nursing, Univ. of Penn., documented rape trauma syndrome), Lexington Books 1983. My husband (a forensic psychologist) found the book at a local Science Fiction book store in Berkeley, and _obviously_ had to buy it for professional reasons. He was VERY surprised at the location. The clerk said they get a lot of call for it. Anyway, in it, they reference Walsh, F.M., Stahl, C.J. III, Unger, H.T., Lilienstern, O.C., and Stephens, R.G. III Autoerotic asphyxial deaths: A medicolegal analysis of forty-three cases. In Wecht, C.H. (ed.) Legal Medicine Annual: 1977, New York: Appleton-Century-Crogts, 1977, pp. 157-182 Rima ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 07:27:37 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: What Car Names Mean This is brilliant.... Where did you get this Wayne? Monk From a counselor who watches humor lists. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:43:57 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: What Car Names Mean Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU writes: Well, the following falls generally under the topic of semiotics, I guess. I have a Ford Aerostar Van (mocha) and a fading Probe (strawberry). I used to drive a Miata. What does this all mean? The Statements Car Owners are Really Making: -------------------------------------------- Acura Integra - I have always wanted to own the Buick of sports cars. [etc.] There's a song about these, by either Greg Brown or Bill Morrissey. I can't remember the title, but the chorus goes: Well, I'll bet you a ten, even a fiver, you find the car, I'll find the driver. It ain't really no big deal to know who's inside that automobile. And some of the IDs go I drive a Mercedes-Benz with MD plates, I have no trouble finding dates. [...] I just airbrushed my Econoline, A friend of the devil's is a friend of mine. Good song! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:33:02 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE run-arounds "Run-arounds" in page layout and newspaper production refer to the space that separates an item (such as a picture or pull-quote) and the surrounding text. I never heard "run-arounds" to refer to a cuticle infection. Which reminds me: didn't someone put together a list of newspaper words that are dead or dying because of computers have been brought into production and newsrooms? Grant Barett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 11/25/97 5:02 PM To: Grant Barrett From: Emerson, Jessie J I just heard the noun "run-arounds" used to describe cuticle infections. Any one else familiar with this? Jessie ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Nov 1997 to 26 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Nov 1997 to 27 Nov 1997 There are 20 messages totalling 835 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Automat (2) 2. Candid Camera 3. Trouble Hunter 4. New Jersey Yankees???? 5. Re : 'Secret Languages' (2) 6. Big Bang 7. Trouble Hunters on WHEELS (3) 8. "Ich bin ein Berliner" (5) 9. Secret Languages 10. run-arounds 11. had/would rather (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:03:12 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Automat The authors of AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS made a real flubber when they chose "goo" for 1902. I have "goo-goo" and "gooey" from the 19th century. The word-of-the-year should have been "automatic." An automatic gun was advertised in the Sears catalog for that year. In New York City, we had the birth of the automatic restaurant. OED has "automat" from a Scientific American photograph, 18 July 1903. This excellent, long antedate comes from the Long Branch Record (NJ), 9 January 1903, pg. 12, col. 4: AN AUTOMATIC RESTAURANT New York Has an Electric Novelty In Feeding Line. The electric restaurant is Broadway's latest. It came recently with a dozen more to follow speedily, and when it opened for business at noon it created such a diversion among Christmas shoppers as seriously to threaten the Christmas trade. It is a waiterless restaurant, where every man turns on the electricity and gets what he wants, whether it be a course dinner, a highball, or an absinthe frappe. The place is on Broadway, New York, and is called the Automat. It occupies an entire floor and is fitted up with an elaborate mechanical service, made in Germany, at a cost of $75,000. It is the first restaurant of the kind to be set up in New York and the second in this country (SECOND??-ed.), and the novelty caught Broadway at once. Three minutes after the restaurant opened at noon it was filled. Fashionable shoppers from up town, jostled business men and strangers elbowed each other in an effort to test the strange mechanism. Tall cabinets of marble and cut glass hid both walls. Through the glass were to be seen little rows of elevators with slots and levers for operating them. On one side was a bar where any drink could be had by dropping the price in a slot, and surrounding it were machines where anything from a sandwich to a pie could be bought. Ten cents in the slot brought up a plate of smoking hot soup, any kind, in five seconds, and a quarter in the slot brought out a plate of roast Chistmas turkey as quick as one could reach for it. (Turkey costs more than a quarter now in NYC--ed.) The meals came silently up from the kitchen in the basement, impelled by electricity. They came smoking hot (I smell a lawsuit here--ed.) or ice cold, just as the customer wanted, and never a waiter in sight. Electric bills of fare guided the customer. The elevators were fitted with countless little shelves. Hot coffee, chocolate and cocoa were automatically served from tanks. A nickel in the slot opened the slot just long enough for a cupfull of the steaming fluid to run out. All kinds of mixed drinks, from Manhattans to a special "automat cocktail," could be obtained. Vermont cider side by side with foreign wines and imported beers came streaming out in response to the coin dropped in the slot. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:21:02 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Candid Camera There is a "New Candid Camera" tv show, with Suzanne Somers and another Funt (Allan Funt's son?). A "candid" camera was actually a "small" camera. The phrase "candid camera" in Latin means "white vault"--which is no place for Suzanne Somers. OED has this from the New York Graphic of 11 May 1929. This is not an antedate, but I'm sure I could find one. It's from WILLIAM RANDOLPH HEARST: AMERICAN by Mrs. Fremont Older (1936), pg. 561: Hearst was younger than his youngest editors and publishers. Within a few weeks he was revolutionizing the pictures in his papers. He introduced the "candid camera" from England which enables photographers to make unposed indoor pictures in any light. He installed picture editors. He told them to study moving pictures. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:39:30 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Trouble Hunter Before there were "trouble shooters," there were "trouble hunters." It's an Americanism associated with that new-fangled invention, the telephone. OED has 1909 for "trouble-shooter." "Trouble hunting" is 1882, but it has "trouble hunter" from only 1910. This is from the Long Branch (NJ) Record, 26 June 1903, pg. 12, col. 2: "TROUBLE HUNTER'S" TROUBLE. Cur Attacked Him, But He Threatens to Attack the Cur. Jesse Green, the "trouble hunter" at the telephone office, was successful in finding it Monday morning. While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. The cur buried his teeth in the calf of Jesse's leg. The wound was cauterized by Dr. S. J. Woolley and Jesse is walking about as usual, but determined that there will be one less dog in the world as soon as he can find a way to have the canine shot. See! He was a trouble-shooter after all! Now, however, we call them "geeks." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:24:38 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: New Jersey Yankees???? From one of my citations, I discovered that the "club sandwich" is an Americanism that originated around the turn of the century at the Pennsylvania Club, in the then-famous resort town of Long Branch, New Jersey. A few months ago, I visited Long Branch for the first time. I searched and searched through the Long Branch Record. Did I find the origin of the Club Sandwich? Did I? No. I found the origin of the ICE CREAM sandwich!! It originated on Wall Street in August 1900, as I posted here a few months ago. It was an enormously productive day nonetheless. The Long Branch Record was very easy to read, and it picked up the most interesting items from major cities such as New York and Philadelphia. This weekend, I returned again to Long Branch to continue my quest for the club sandwich. It was a strange time to come. Patrick King, a very well-liked policeman, had been shot in a Chinese restaurant. (His killer was shot at the George Washington Bridge after a long chase.) I saw a "God Bless You, Patrick King" sign. I arrived in time for the funeral procession, which I read somewhere had 10,000 New Jersey cops. I figured Long Branch deserved a club sandwich. So, did I NOW find the club sandwich?? No. But it was still a productive day. I got an "Automat." I got a "trouble hunter." I got tons of other things that I can't post here. And I also got "Yankees." GEORGE COSTANZA: You got "Yankees"? POPIK: Do you knock? How'd you get in here? Doesn't SEINFELD know that most New Yorkers bolt their doors? GEORGE COSTANZA: I'll tell the Boss! As posted here, the New York Yankees were originally the New York Highlanders. They were first called the New York "Yankees" in William Randolph Hearst's (found "candid camera" there) New York Evening Journal in April 1904, in sports pages that were edited by Harry Beecher, the grandnephew of Harriet Beecher Stowe. Long Branch, New Jersey had a Yankee Athletic Club. In the Long Branch Record of 15 November 1903, pg .2, col. 3, under Foot Ball Notes, there is a story about the game that the "Yankees" played. New York City also had a Yankees football club, by the way, but it was later than the baseball one. Then, in the Long Branch Record of 27 March 1903, pg. 1, col. 4: Yankees Base Ball Club. All members of the Yankee Athletic Club who wish to run for a position on the base ball team of that club are requested to meet at the hospital grounds, opposite the New York and Long Branch Railroad depot, Saturday, March 28th, at 1 p.m. On 15 May 1903, pg. 1, col. 3 was: YANKEES LOSE FIRST BASE BALL GAME GEORGE STEINBRENNER: That's amazing! When is this going to appear in Yankees Magazine? POPIK: When I finish "subway series." I've been waiting six months for the MTA to hire an archivist so I can research the Subway Sun. They told me January! I'll do "Yankees," "Bronx Bombers," and "Subway Series" together. I also have to give stuff to Paul Dickson for his new Baseball Dictionary. GEORGE STEINBRENNER: I heard about your boss not saying hello to you after your parents died. That's awful! That would never happen with Boss Steinbrenner! POPIK: Thanks. GEORGE STEINBRENNER: I'd say: "You're fired!" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:01:05 -0000 From: Muhammed Suleiman xtr08[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DIAL.PIPEX.COM Subject: Re : 'Secret Languages' Dear List Members, I am doing some research at the moment into what we can call variously 'Secret Languages' or 'Language Games'. By this I mean languages similar to Pig Latin or Back Slang where the syllables of a word are mixed up, or where an extra syllable is added to each of the original syllables of a word, in order to prevent others from understanding. These 'languages' are usually, but not exclusively, used by children and/or youths. I would be very grateful if my fellow list-members could give examples, with details, of any such languages they mow use or used as children. Many thanks in advance, and all of you out there, have a happy thanksgiving. Regards, Dr M. Suleiman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:38:46 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.OR.JP Subject: Big Bang In the OED, the first citation for Big Bang is this one. If this is the actual coinage of the word, it looks like a very uneventful one. Anyone have any ideas? (This is the kinda thing that keep a certain New Yorker up all night thumbing through obscure physics journals!) 1950 F. Hoyle Nature of Universe v. 102 One [idea] was that the Universe started its life a finite time ago in a single huge explosion... This *big bang idea seemed to me to be unsatisfactory. Danny Long (who used to hang out a crowded disco in Kyoto called the Big Bang way back in the eighties) -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:33:10 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Automat On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: The authors of AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS made a real flubber when they chose "goo" for 1902. I have "goo-goo" and "gooey" from the 19th century. Good to have you back, Barry. Would you be willing to post your earliest citations for "goo-goo" and "gooey" to the list? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:20:42 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS In disussing the archaism "trouble hunters," BP accidentally cites another: "While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. ... " I wonder how may people know that WHEEL once commonly meant 'bicycle'? My Iowa great-grandmother (b. 1860) regularly used this slang (?) term, and I think also her daughters and her daughters' husbands used it. Farmer&Henley list this usage, but give no noun cites. Chapman does not list it, nor does Beale/Partridge. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 11:38:54 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS Ron, as a child growing up in Chicago in a large Irish clan, I used to ride what the family called an "Irish wheel." 4-wheels, very low to the ground, you sat on it (almost like a go cart) and there was a lever-like steering mechanism that you moved up and down to nmake the thing go. This is really testing my descriptive powers, but I've never seen anythin like it since or before. The mechanism that mobved it was similar to the 2-person railroad carts: one person on each side of a lever moving it up and sdown to make the cart run the rails. At 11:20 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: In disussing the archaism "trouble hunters," BP accidentally cites another: "While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. ... " I wonder how may people know that WHEEL once commonly meant 'bicycle'? My Iowa great-grandmother (b. 1860) regularly used this slang (?) term, and I think also her daughters and her daughters' husbands used it. Farmer&Henley list this usage, but give no noun cites. Chapman does not list it, nor does Beale/Partridge. Cheers, Pat Courts ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:37:23 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Ich bin ein Berliner" On Nov. 25, l997 Jim Crotty sent a message under "Vernacular Mishaps," which included mention of JFK's famous statement in Berlin "Ich bin ein Berliner." The meaning, of course, is "I am a resident of Berlin" and drew a thunderous, emotional response from the large crowd of Germans who heard it. Mr. Crotty passes along the interpretation that the real meaning of JFK's famous statment is "I am a jelly doughnut," but this interpretation has already been forcefully rejected by Reinhold Aman (a native German) in his journal _Maledicta_. I don't have the exact reference handy, but the article appeared a few years ago. Incidentally, _Maledicta_ is available from Dr. Reinhold Aman, P.O. Box 14123, Santa Rosa, CA 95402-6223. It is the only scholarly journal that regularly prints (indeed, specializes in) articles that would make a longshoreman blush. Anyone interested in the scholarly treatment of various off-color topics pertinent to language should be familar with this publication. The "Ich bin ein Berliner" article is an exception to the usual range of topics treated there. Also, too, although the "Ich bin ein Berliner" item should be removed from Mr. Crotty's list, the overall list itself is an interesting one. The marketing of the Nova ("It doesn't go") in Latin America--with its disastrously low sales for a while and with no one in management aware of the implication of the car's name--is breathtaking in retrospect. When time permits, I'll send along some other examples of gaffes in communication. Two come to mind now. During his presidency, George Bush visited Australia, and flashed the V (for Victory) sign when getting off the plane. I remember the American newspapers explaining the next day that in Australia that sign is an indecent gesture. Then there was Jimmy Carter's American-born Polish translator who accompanied him to Poland during his presidency. Carter was giving a speech to an assembled crowd (at the airport, I believe), when he noticed that many in the crowd were grinning, and whatever Carter was saying, it wasn't supposed to contain any humor. Later the cause of the unintended humor became clear to the American party. Carter had said something like "We have come to help the Polish people realize its desires;" but when Carter paused to allow for the translation of the sentence, the translator used the wrong word for "desires," and instead used the word for "lusts." So, it sounded as though the American president--the most powerful person of the most powerful country on earth--had made the long trip to Poland to help the Polish people satisfy their lusts. Small wonder that there were grins in the crowd. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:44:04 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS Pat Courts wrote: Ron, as a child growing up in Chicago in a large Irish clan, I used to ride what the family called an "Irish wheel." 4-wheels, very low to the ground, you sat on it (almost like a go cart) and there was a lever-like steering mechanism that you moved up and down to nmake the thing go. This is really testing my descriptive powers, but I've never seen anythin like it since or before. The mechanism that mobved it was similar to the 2-person railroad carts: one person on each side of a lever moving it up and sdown to make the cart run the rails. At 11:20 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: In disussing the archaism "trouble hunters," BP accidentally cites another: "While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. ... " I wonder how may people know that WHEEL once commonly meant 'bicycle'? My Iowa great-grandmother (b. 1860) regularly used this slang (?) term, and I think also her daughters and her daughters' husbands used it. Farmer&Henley list this usage, but give no noun cites. Chapman does not list it, nor does Beale/Partridge. Cheers, Pat Courts Pat, The riding toy you mention was named by its manufacturer "Irish Mail." I was privileged to ride on one in the 1920's. It belonged to my older brother Sam, for whom my parents had bought it because it could be operated by pumping with the arms on a T-shaped handle. Sam, unfortunately, had had polio at a time during which there was no real treatment available. Fortunately, however, he had some control over his legs, which were used to steer the vehicle by turning the front axle in the desired direction. The pumping handle only operated the crank mechanism used to drive the back wheels. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:51:36 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" At 12:37 PM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: When time permits, I'll send along some other examples of gaffes in communication. Two come to mind now. During his presidency, George Bush visited Australia, and flashed the V (for Victory) sign when getting off the plane. I remember the American newspapers explaining the next day that in Australia that sign is an indecent gesture. I wonder what the Aussies thought of Churchill. \ Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:00:02 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: Re : 'Secret Languages' Muhammed Suleiman wrote: Dear List Members, I am doing some research at the moment into what we can call variously 'Secret Languages' or 'Language Games'. By this I mean languages similar to Pig Latin or Back Slang where the syllables of a word are mixed up, or where an extra syllable is added to each of the original syllables of a word, in order to prevent others from understanding. These 'languages' are usually, but not exclusively, used by children and/or youths. I would be very grateful if my fellow list-members could give examples, with details, of any such languages they mow use or used as children. Many thanks in advance, and all of you out there, have a happy thanksgiving. Regards, Dr M. Suleiman I am afraid that my childhood was not very inventive of secret languages. I remember only the ordinary and very common pig latin, and, at a later stage (pre-teen or early teen) the Murph language. In the murph language, the syllable "murph" was inserted in each syllable by first sounding the vowel of the syllable, inserting "murph," and then repeating the vowel sound. Thus: ImurphI amurpham remurphespomurphondiumrphing tomurpho youmurphour remurphequemurphuest. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:41:53 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" At 12:37 PM 11/27/97 -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: Also, too, although the "Ich bin ein Berliner" item should be removed from Mr. Crotty's list, the overall list itself is an interesting one. The marketing of the Nova ("It doesn't go") in Latin America--with its disastrously low sales for a while and with no one in management aware of the implication of the car's name--is breathtaking in retrospect. Apparently management was aware of the issue. This is taken from the alt.folklore.urban web page (www.urbanlegends.com): ----------------------------- From _Business Mexico_, June, 1993 [...] The most often cited auto blunder is the Chevrolet Nova (the phrase "No va" translates in Spanish as "It doesn't go") which General Motors wanted to bring into Mexico in the early 1970s. Although GM's Mexican managers were worried about the name, Nova was indeed used. "They kept the name and it sold very well," says marketing analyst Cecilia Bouleau, who disputes the conventional wisdom surrounding the moniker. "It's the same thing with Nova gasoline. I think that the word is sufficiently incorporated into the language as meaning 'new' -- as in 'bossa nova' -- that the criticism isn't valid." Bouleau goes on to say that a strong ad campaign can counter an apparent weakness that a brand name may carry across an international border. "One thing that never ceases to surprise me is how Coca-Cola has never had a problem (in Latin America). 'Coca' has drug connotations and 'Cola' means 'tail' -- yet no-one thinks the worse of it." -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:14:57 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Secret Languages ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:48:27 -0400 From: linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linguistlist.org To: Multiple recipients of list LINGUIST LINGUIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]postal.tamu.edu Subject: 8.1079, Sum: Pig Latins LINGUIST List: Vol-8-1079. Wed Jul 23 1997. ISSN: 1068-4875. -------------------------------- Message 1 ------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:42:42 -0400 (EDT) From: Markell R West markell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]afterlife.ncsc.mil Subject: Summary: Pig Latins In May, 1996, I published a request for information on foreign Pig Latins. I apologize for the delay in summarizing the results. You can thank Dan Downs and Waruno Mahdi for keeping me honest and inspiring me to do this at last. I got such a great response that it was an intmidating job. Forgive me! I hadn't taken the time to summarize the results until now, but here are the languages and rules that I was given. I appreciate the information! Thanks to the following contributors in totally random order: Neil Bermel William Byrne "Nadine" Robert Lyle Good Marina Yaguello Paul de Lacy Marc Picard Geoffrey Sampson Andrew S. McCullough Jack Aubert Nevin Leder Scott Martens Billy Clark Jack Hall Judit J. Toth Mark A. Wilson Marc Hamann Annabel Cormack Nancy Frishberg John Goldsmith Forrest Richey Trey Jones Dale Russell Lex Olorenshaw Liz McKeown Marion Kee Salvatore Attardo Nobuko Koyama-Murakami (which sounds like a language game already ;-) John Goldsmith, who edited the HANDBOOK OF PHONOLOGICAL THEORY, recommends Bruce Bagemihl's survey of pig latins within that book. It was published by Basil Blackwell's and reissued in paperback in 1996. (This is highly recommended, even by people who are not John Goldsmith!) Everyone said that these are called "language games" rather than "toy languages", but my family is so competitive that if a game doesn't have a winner and loser it's not a game! (Hence my use of the word "toy"!) Here are specific examples: Chinese: Onsset of a typical monosyllabic word is prepended to a different rime, which is suffixed to a different onset (possibly k) "zhai kang" for "zhang" Mandarin: Fanquie languages (each example has its own name, based on the pattern involved; no example given) Dutch: backward speaking: reverse syllables and sometimes words (emerged from economic causes -- needed secret speech so other fisherman wouldn't learn their secrets) English: insert /ab/ between onset and rime of each syllable "Maby nabame abis Babill" for "My name is Bill". (also with /^b/, called "ubby dubby"; sample at very end) gibberish: insert "itherg" after each consonant "Bithergy thitherga witherrgay" for "by the way" bicycle: insert [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s (schwa s) after every consonant: "h[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]se t[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sold m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sse" for "he told me" eggegg langeggwagegg: add 'egg' after every consonant: "theganksegg yeggou" for "thank you" zambuda: english pronounced wrong in every possible way! Long vowels became short; c pronounced s when should have been k. "[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-nOsk beh-faw-re een-tee-rynj" for "knock before entering" yardle bardle: those particular words were interspersed in such a way that the victim -- er, eavesdropper -- could never figure out the rules. ob-talk, from the Firesign Theatre: "ob" before words (breaks down into raucous imitation of rooster calls at a cockfight) arp-bark: put /arp/ before "first vowel of every syllable" (and I thought there was only one vowel per syllable anyway) "harpellarpo" for "hello" French: Verlan: Individual words are said backwwords. "verlan" for "l'enverse" (meaning "backwords" "zomblou" for "blouson" (jacket) German: "lav" inserted after vowels. "Ilavich wohlavonelave ilavin balavad holavombulavurg" for "Ich wohne in Bad Hombburg" Hungarian: put "v" after the vowel and repeat the vowel: "Tu-vudsz i-vigy be-ve-sze'-ve'-lni'vi" for "Tudsz igy besze'lni" more advanced: say /rg/ isntead of /v/. Italian: "Latino Maccheronico" - not the same thing. Uses Italian roots and attaches Latin inflection morphology for humorous effect. Italian language game: subsstitute initial consonant with "f" "Fatino Faccheronic" for "Latino Maccheronico" Japanese: Ba-bi-bu-be-bo language: insert "b" plus vowel between syllables "waba taba sibi waba" for "watasi-wa" Portuguese: Sima language: insert "sima" [after vowels, I think] "quecima-rosima cocima-mesima (or cocima-mercima) alcima-gocima) for "quero comer algo" Linga do Pe: (language of the letter P) here's how one version of it works: 1. add [p] to the end of each syllable. 2. after the [p] you just added to the syllable, copy the rime of that syllable. (Rime = nucleus plus coda). 3. change open syllables in closed [o] and [e] to the open vowels [O] and [E], respectively. 4. disregard the stress patterns of the original word/ sentence; instead, stress the *copy* of each rime. example: voce^ cortou o seu cabelo? did you cut your hair? vOpO'-cEpE' corpor'-toupou' OpO' seupeu' capa' -bEpE'-lOpO'? another person sent this example: "quepe-ropo copo-mepe alpo-gopo" for "quero comer algo" Russian: Fufajskij yazyk: place "fu" before every syllable in a word: "fuprifuyet" for "privet" porosyachia latin (Pig Latin): can be formed different ways. military pig latin: "ka" instead of "fu": "katy kakukada kaseikachas kaikadiosh" for "ty kuda sejchas idiosh" Spanish: insert [Vf] between onset and rime of each syllable, where [V] is the vowel of the rime: "mefe llafamofo Bifill" for "me llamo Bill" insert /po/ to the end of each syllable: "copomopo espotaspo" for "como estas" Yakut: "pig latin" -- imitation of "Russian pig latin" (no examples given) Thanks again to everyone for your contributions and interest. I'll eagerly accept further contributions at my new address: markell8[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aolcom Yubbu gubbuys ubbar grubbate! Ubay hubope yubbu uball hubbav ubba gubbood subbumubber! --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-8-1079 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:58:36 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: run-arounds "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM wrote Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:00:30: I just heard the noun "run-arounds" used to describe cuticle infections. Any one else familiar with this? I'm pretty sure this is the term we used in the early 1940s when I had several of these as a kid between 10 and 12 in Texas. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:41:26 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" There were several days when I didn't receive mail. Could someone please forward the original "Vernacular Mishaps" list to me? Danny Long Gerald Cohen wrote: On Nov. 25, l997 Jim Crotty sent a message under "Vernacular Mishaps," which included mention of JFK's famous statement in Berlin "Ich bin ein Berliner." Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:44:46 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" At 09:41 AM 11/28/97 +0900, you wrote: There were several days when I didn't receive mail. Could someone please forward the original "Vernacular Mishaps" list to me? Danny Long I just did so. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:33:08 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: had/would rather A couple of weeks ago Greg Downing posted a query about had/would rather. (I accidentatlly deleted his query to which I wanted to respond, so I have to rely on my not-too-dependable memory for the nature of the query.) I was surprised that his posting got no attention, but then my age shows again, and I'm not very old. Greg thought 'had rather' seemed not to be grammatical somehow,** or was inappropriate. I remember back in the 1950s teaching from a high school grammar book that said 'had rather' was preferable to 'would rather'. I just now checked some college handbooks from the '70s and didn't find it listed, though one listed a quibble over 'rather than' (having to do with the "fact" that 'than' is a conjunction rather than a preposition). So I went to the absolute BEST source on questions like this: the superior scholarship of Ward Gilman in WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH USAGE. If you don't have it and you're serious about being on this List, go get it. It doesn't cost much. WDEU has a 1.5"-column on 'had rather'. The quarrel over 'would' and 'had' goes back a long way (I also had to inveigh against 'long ways' in my high school classes). I suppose some of the prescribers preferred 'had rather' because that was the form Shakespeare used (38 times!). It's a complex historical matter. **Subjunctive mood is involved, and who knows about that stuff nowadays? It's indirectly related to the archaism 'had lief' used in Appalachian and other conservative dialects. I repeat: If you've got about 25 bucks that you can part with, go get this valuable reference book (WDEU). Look up 'hadn't ought' as well and see what Harry Truman said. A valuable reference for scholars in all quarters of the globe where English is in use. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:28:32 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: had/would rather At 09:33 PM 11/27/97 -0600, you wrote: A couple of weeks ago Greg Downing posted a query about had/would rather. Twasn't me, was it? I believe it was Barry Popik, if memory serves, discoursing on Clay's supposed "I had/would rather be right than be president." (This from a guy who ran and lost three times.) His question wasn't about which was grammatical if I recall, but about which of the two variants Clay really said (if either?). "Would rather" is the common version of the Clay quote these days, perhaps (???) because "had rather" is rather obsolescent now. But maybe Barry has something further to report on this. Enquiring minds want to know. I do have the Gilman etc. with my dictionaries and the like. Best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Nov 1997 to 27 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Nov 1997 to 28 Nov 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 364 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. G-string 2. dialect&literature 3. exchange of dialect recordings 4. "Ich bin ein Berliner" (3) 5. of(t)en and "is all" 6. a nice place to live 7. HOW TO TALK AMERICAN 8. Chop Suey ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Aug 1956 04:12:09 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell slangman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PACBELL.NET Subject: Re: G-string I did some work on G STRING for SLANG OF SIN, and can offer several earlier uses of g-string (or gee-string), but I cannot offer a solid explanation of what the "G" is. The OED cites Harper's Magazine of 1891 as the first use of the term to describe the loin cloth worn by American Indians. Richard Thorton's AN AMERICAN GLOSSARY (1912) contains a slightly earlier first citation of "gee-string" - J. H. Beadle's WESTERN WILDS (1878). The term was also used to describe the brief loin cloth worn in the Philippines at least as early as 1903, predating by three decades the use of the term in the context of striptease in the 1930's. For the striptease context, the OED cites John Dos Passos in BIG MONEY (1936) as the earliest use of "geestring." Within the Tamony Collection, however, one finds a 1931 use in Bernard Sobel's BURLEYCUE (... where girls take off everything by the brassiere and the "G" string --- the narrow equivalent to the dancing belt...) The musical etymology (G string as the lowest string on the violin) is popular but probably apocryphal. I don't know Earl Wilson's discussion of "G String" and would greatly appreciate a cite if anyone can help. The big question remains - what is the "G" or the "Gee"? "Genitals" is one guess, "groin" another. I have nothing but guesses for now though. Last thought - dancers in sex clubs today often wear a "T bar" instead of a "G string." Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:12:12 +0200 From: Helen Krestianicov helenkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD Subject: Re: dialect&literature Dear Ron, I am interested very much in getting a hard copy of your 1982 article "Dialects at Work- Eudora Welty' Artistic Purpose".I would highly appreciate it if you could only mail it to me. I live in Moldova, Chisinau, and have no other way of getting it in Moldova which is one of the Republics of the former Soviet Union.(We are located north of Romania). I lecture on Dialectology and Aspects of Sociolinguistics at English Department of Moldova State University.My address is Moldova 2009, Chisinau, Moldova State University, Mateevici Str.,60., Thank you in advance. Sincerely yours, Helen Crestianicov On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: Sorry to disturb the whole list about this, but earlier this month somebody asked me for a copy of my 1982 article, "Dialect at Work: Eudora Welty's Artistic Purposes," and I lost the message and don't know where to send the offprint. If anybody still wants a copy, let me know. (I can't send it bye-mail, though--I only have a hard copy.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:02:32 -0500 From: Paul Meier pmeier[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: exchange of dialect recordings This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5FC687AAA953FCBCE048E8B3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just joined the list and this is my first posting. I am Associate Professor of Theatre & Film at the University of Kansas where I teach Voice, Speech, Accents & Dialects, and Shakespeare Voice and Text. I am keen to correspond with others who have this research agenda, particularly with those who might wish to exchange recordings of real people (not actors) speaking with authentic dialects of English. I can send voice files as attachments to e-mail, and am interested in receiving same from others. I have a Mac with the "Simple Sound" program. More traditional methods of exchange are also welcome. Paul Meier --------------5FC687AAA953FCBCE048E8B3 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Paul Meier Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Paul Meier n: Meier;Paul email;internet: pmeier[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eagle.cc.ukans.edu note: Associate Professor, Theatre and Film, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS, 66045 (785)864-3944;(785)864-5251(fax) x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------5FC687AAA953FCBCE048E8B3-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:25:31 -0500 From: Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREWS.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). He said that Kennedy's remark was, however, easily understood with its original intent and was not the disastrous gaffe some people make it out to be. Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]andrews.edu http://www.andrews.edu/~banks ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:32:57 -0500 From: Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREWS.EDU Subject: of(t)en and "is all" Just a couple of quirky queries about things I've noticed recently. My mother occasionally uses a construction that seems very bizarre to me: "Is all we ever do is fight" or "Is all he ever does is pick on me." She uses these as independent sentences. This seems to me to be different from the double "is" that we discussed a while ago. My mother is a native of Wisconsin, but has also lived in Pennsylvania and Michigan for significant parts of her life. Anybody else familiar with this construction? Also, did anybody out there grow up pronouncing the "t" in often? I've only ever heard it done in poetry. Is the t-lessness an Americanism, or a regionalism? Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]andrews.edu http://www.andrews.edu/~banks ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:47:19 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: a nice place to live New subject: Frequently of late I see variants of the above phrase without "in" either preposed with "which" or stranded. Two such recent local citations are: "Welcome to Athens County--a great place to live, work, and visit!" (from a new webpage) and "we'll better be able to...make OU a better place to live and study and also to live" (from the student newspaper). I don't think the latter is a misprint; I suspect "live and study" is a cluster meaning "live as a student" vs. "live in general" (but I may be wrong). A conversion test for the first citation would presumably be: "Let's visit Athens"; "Let's live Athens"; "Let's work Athens." Granted, "a great place to work" may be common, but is the "live minus in" construction also widespread? I suspect it originated in the prescription-based reluctance to end a sentence with a preposition, esp. in writing. But when I surveyed my graduate students recently, I was amazed at the general acceptance of the form, one student even distinguishing between "in" (not required with 'live') and "within" (connoting something like "within city limits"). Most, in fact, seemed puzzled by my query. But then I saw an analogous statement on e-mail (from students in the Business College): "We have created a few questions that we would appreciate your quick response." And just now I heard "[eco-minded lumbermen in Brazil look for] an empty space for trees to fall." I know that pied-piping of preps with relative pronouns is increasingly rare, but this lack of any preposition at all mystifies me. Have others noticed this? (I will check Gilman's WDEU, Don!) Beverly Flanigan Ohio University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:39:28 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: HOW TO TALK AMERICAN Marcia Moore, I deleted your direct request for info on Appalachian English so will reply via Jim Crotty's book heading. Joan Hall already referred another requester to DARE, vols. 1-3, and its index in _Publications of the American Dialect Society_, which can direct you to words and idioms used in AE. For grammar features, see Walt Wolfram and Donna Christian, _Appalachian Speech_, and other studies done over the past 20 years or more. In other words, sound scholarship on AE has been available for a long time! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:17:04 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Chop Suey Just in time for Thanksgiving--chop suey! Oh, c'mon--"turkey" has been overdone! I was cleaning out my files and realized that I hadn't posted (nor published) this item. It's agreed that "chop suey" is an Americanism, but there has been a New York Chinatown vs. San Francisco Chinatown "chop suey" debate. The Dictionary of Americanisms has: 1928 ASBURY _Gangs of New York_ 301 The tongs are as American as chop suey--the latter is said to have been invented by an American dishwasher in a San Francisco restaurant,.... 1947 _Democrat_ 7 Aug. 8/1 Chop suey, unknown in China, was originated in New York City by an American chef. The word chop suey in Chinese means "hash." John Ayto's A GOURMET'S GUIDE: FOOD & DRINK FROM A TO Z has the OED citation and states: "..._chop suey_ is first recorded (in the October 1888 issue of _Current Literature_, an American publication). It represents a slightly mangled rendition of Cantonese Chinese _shap sui_, 'odds and ends', literally 'miscellaneous bits'." This is from the Brooklyn Times, 24 July 1886, pg. 3, col. 1: NEW YORK'S CHINA-TOWN. A DINNER IN MONG SING WAH'S RESTAURANT. Not Altogether an Affair of Dogs and Bats --The Joss of the Kitchen--How to Order a Chinese Dinner--Tea in Oriental Style. (...) "Chow chop suey, chop seow, laonra an, san sui-goy, no ma das," glibly ordered my friend, and the white-robed attendant trotted off and began to chant down a dumbwaiter. It sounded as if he was intoning a service to some mysterious downstairs Joss of the kitchen, but he wasn't, he was ordering our dinner. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- AUTOMAT, continued I really liked that article from January 1903 on the first New York City Automat (in 1902). I decided to check the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY: automats. Self-service restaurants operated by the Horn and Hardart Company of Philadelphia; the first in New York City opened at 1557 Broadway in Times Square on 2 July 1912. 1912?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- AUTOEROTIC ASPHYXIATION, continued The press has neatly downplayed this, saying that INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence (whose biggest hit was probably "New Sensation," and who was starting an anniversary tour called "Lose Your Head") died under "mysterious circumstances." Australia police are flying to interview Sir Bob Geldof, Hutchence's girlfriend's estranged husband. SICKEST INTERNET JOKE: If Michael Hutchence had given Lady Diana his belt, they'd both be alive today. ADDITIONAL _AUTOEROTIC ASPHYXIATION_ THOUGHT: Wow! You miss one issue of Hustler, and you miss so much! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:12:01 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" At 04:25 PM 11/28/97 -0500, you wrote: When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). As I recall from several years of living in Germany and being conversant, though not native fluent, in German, to say that you were a citizen of a certain place, one (sorry) would say, Ich bin Berliner (or W=FCrzburger, in my case). Adding the indefinite article solidifies the doughnut connotation. I was there for the City Hall speech, and as I recall there was talk at that time of the gaffe amongst Germans. But I could be misrecollecting. At that distance one (oops, sorry again) tends to remember what one wants to be true. Similarly scholarly discussion is not devoid of political= influence. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:55:33 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" When my husband lived in Germany in the middle 60s (Cologne/Rhineland) we asked out German friends and landladies/landlords about "Ich bin ein Berliner." As Kendra Perry and Duane Campbell noted, the Rhineland Germans explained that a Berliner was what we call a doughnut with a jelly filling. They definitely did not view Kennedy's use of the phrase as a disastrous gaffe. They recognized the humor in the comment, but more important to them, they appreciated Kennedy's attempt to use German. (These were blue collar workers not college instructors.) The Berliner was a distinctive and widely known pastry. I don't remember the distinction that Duane Campbell pointed out about the use or non-use of "ein" except in the Kennedy example. (I'm not as fluent in German now because I don't use it very often.) For example, I don't think that "Ich bin ein Rheinlaender" vs. "Ich bin Rheinlaender" would provoke a chuckle. Jeutonne On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Kendra Banks Perry wrote: When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). He said that Kennedy's remark was, however, easily understood with its original intent and was not the disastrous gaffe some people make it out to be. Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]andrews.edu http://www.andrews.edu/~banks ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Nov 1997 to 28 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Nov 1997 to 29 Nov 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 189 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Autoer. Asph. (Was Re: Chop Suey) 2. "Ich bin ein Berliner" (5) 3. V-gesture and "Ich bin ein Berliner" 4. Project Help ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:08:30 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Autoer. Asph. (Was Re: Chop Suey) At 06:17 PM 11/28/97 -0500, you (Barry Popik) wrote: AUTOEROTIC ASPHYXIATION, continued The press has neatly downplayed this, saying that INXS lead singer Michael Hutchence (whose biggest hit was probably "New Sensation," and who was starting an anniversary tour called "Lose Your Head") died under "mysterious circumstances." Australia police are flying to interview Sir Bob Geldof, Hutchence's girlfriend's estranged husband. NY Post mentions the possibility and the term "a a" in para. 9 of the article on p. 7 today (Friday 28 Nov.), which I imagine might mean other Murdoch-owned papers in UK and Australia are mentioning it too. The headline of the article has `suicide' in skeptical quotat-marks. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:59:25 +1100 From: Pauline Bryant pbryant[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACRAE.COM.AU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" Duane Campbell wrote: At 12:37 PM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: When time permits, I'll send along some other examples of gaffes in communication. Two come to mind now. During his presidency, George Bush visited Australia, and flashed the V (for Victory) sign when getting off the plane. I remember the American newspapers explaining the next day that in Australia that sign is an indecent gesture. I wonder what the Aussies thought of Churchill. \ There are two V signs in Australia. In the V-for-victory sign as used by Churchill, hold up your index and middle fingers, with the thumb and the other two fingers folded across the palm. The important thing is to do this with the palm facing away from the body. Nobody actually does it any more because it isn't culturally relevant any more, but also because you might accidentally get it wrong and make the offensive sign. President Bush can't have known that in Australia if you make the sign with the palm facing toward the body it is an offensive gesture. He probably thought it didn't matter which way round you held your hand. There was much hilarity in the press when the pictures were published. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that when Churchill created the V-for-victory sign, one of his staff had to take him aside and explain to him that he'd better do it with his palm turned outwards, but this might be apocryphal, dreamt up by an Australian. Is it only in Australia that the sign with the palm turned inward is offensive? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 11:48:56 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: V-gesture and "Ich bin ein Berliner" At 06:59 PM 11/29/97 +1100, you (pbryant[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macrae.com.au) wrote: I vaguely remember reading somewhere that when Churchill created the V-for-victory sign, one of his staff had to take him aside and explain to him that he'd better do it with his palm turned outwards, but this might be apocryphal, dreamt up by an Australian. Is it only in Australia that the sign with the palm turned inward is offensive? No -- when I was in England (London and suburbs) in high school in the 1970s, the gesture done with the index and middle fingers in a V shape with the back of the hand facing forward (away from the gesturer) meant stick it up your ---, or "up yours". It was extremely common (amybe the most common of all obscene gestures) from middle-class downwards, among the younger set (10s/20s/30s), though it may well have been around a very long time and older people were simply not willing to use such a graphic gesture as openly as people my age obviously were. On Berliner, the proper German way to say what JFK meant, as someone pointed out but someone else did not understand, would be "Ich bin Berliner" (I am [a] Berliner). "Ich bi ein Berliner" is how an American using English assumptions would wrongly put it, which would literally mean (absent context) "I am a/one jelly-donut." But everyone knew JFK didn't speak proper German, was likely to make typical American mistakes in speaking it, and had no reason to claim status as a pastry. They understood exactly what his meaning was, just as a native speaker of English would understand an ESL speaker making a slip, when the sense was clear from context. Context is a big issue in understanding language -- that's no surprise to anyone here. It would require a pretty unusual context for a German speaker really to understand "Ich bin ein Berliner" as a serious avowal of pastryhood. Some kind of figurative use, poetry or literature maybe. Maybe: Gregor awoke one morning, und er war ein Berliner. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:29:39 +0100 From: Jan Strunk Strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]T-ONLINE.DE Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" The word "Berliner" is indeed the name of a jelly-filled pastry, but only in some parts of Germany, mainly in the west and south west. I'm from Bochum, Northrhine-Westphalia, and it's native to me. However, in Berlin itself, this kind of pastry is called Pfannkuchen (pancake), although it's usually fried. The Berliners may however have known the additional sense of the word. Although one normally says "Ich bin Berliner" without indefinite article, it's perfectly correct, grammatical and also understandable to say "Ich bin ein Berliner". In conclusion, I would say, that it might be funny for some people in Germany, but I wouldn't call it a real mistake. sources: myself DWA (The German Word Atlas) Jan Strunk strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:06:54 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). When I ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:11:07 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). I remember asking my German friends about this when I lived in Bamberg. They agreed that "Ich bin ein Berliner" was not the way a native would say it AND that it could be interpeted as meaning 'I am a jelly donut'; however, pragmatically, since it is not at all likely that that was what JFK meant, people did not tend to interpret it that way. One makes allowances for foreigners, after all. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 19:39:17 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" An Austrian once told me they used to laugh at this because Berliner meant a condom (cf. I am a Trojan). Pariser is another synonym in some parts of Austrial Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 23:33:43 -0500 From: Jennifer Fugate Lolipop894[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Project Help I am conducting a project on terms referred to the restroom in the midwest. I person replied earlier that their mother and grandmother used proper terms and the father used less proper terms. If you could reply back to with the exact words that both groups used and their educational level it would be very helpful. Thank you for your time. Jennifer Fugate ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Nov 1997 to 29 Nov 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 1997 to 30 Nov 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. G-String; Melon Head; Ward Heeler 2. of(t)en and "is all" (4) 3. of(t)en 4. goo (2) 5. Nova (the car) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 05:19:29 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: G-String; Melon Head; Ward Heeler G-STRING I have a nice "G-String" cartoon in my files. It's from the Seattle Times, 9 July 1909, pg. 7, cols. 2-4, called "THE DICTATOR OF IGORROTE FASHIONS." (Seattle Fair) President Chilberg is holding out pants and saying, "HERE. BE DECENT." An "IGORROTE VILLAGE" is shown. A native is up a tree, wearing only a "POCKET HAT" and a "6 STRING." I looked closely at that. It says "6 STRING," not "G STRING." My copy cuts off the article. The Seattle Post-Intelligencer must also be checked for the same story. The Times's story is this: IGORROTES DO NOT PINE FOR PANTS Management of Village Says If Worse Comes to Worst Part of Settlement Will Be Immune. THE management of the Igorrote Village is congratulating itself that should worse come to worst and the threatened "pants" edict be promulgated by the exposition directorate, there are at least ten memebers of the tribe that are immune. Richard Schneidewind holds that the feminine side of the village cannot rightly be brought within the meaning of the ruling. To be sure, Madame Igorrote does not go heavily on more than one layer of clothing, but what she does use is enough for all Igorrote purposes and the widest stretch of Filipino sensibilities cannot possibly create a necessity for added adornment. "Besides," says Mr. Schneidewind, "the Igorrote woman has not gone so high in the scale of civilization, that she desires to wear them. If pants must be worn in this village, the women are quite content to grant the privilege exclusively to their men folks, and this goes both figuratively and literally, We have weaverettes, and workerettes, and cigarettes, but there is not a suffragette in the village. "Bring on the pants if you have to; we will try to make the worst of them." (Copy cut off-ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MELON HEAD The RHHDAS has "melonhead" from 1932. This--a large antedate from my file-cleaning--is from the Oxford Gazette (N.Y. state), 25 September 1818, pg. 2, col. 2: The profound editor of the Advocate has deigned to notice us as a "devotee" of MR. CLINTON and the State Government, and bestows upon us a few stale and hacknied epithets, such as "small fry," "melon head," &c. which are peculiarly characteristic of his intellectual acumen, deep research, brilliant and inventive imagination. (...) What may we next expect when we find in the train of his auxiliaries the evil genius of Kinderhook _melon_ patches,* a man well drenched in crime, and his superior in every thing but native perfidy and hollow hearted sycophany, and in that his equal. (...) * Thereby hangs a _Tale_ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- WARD HEELER William Safire's Sunday "On Language" column mentions the Chicago term, "ward heeler." Safire still won't even talk to me, but if he did, he'd know that a fine definition can be found in the Chicago Tribune, "ENCYCLOPEDIA CHICAGOANA" (a wonderful, comic series), 4 August 1901, pg. 4, col. 4: (A fat man is shown in the cartoon, asking "ARE YOU WIT US?") WARD-HEELER--_(WARD-HEAL-ER)_. (A boss. One who has influence, authority, control, or leadership over the sovereign voters of a ward or subdivision of a city or municipality. One who knows how, when, and where to get votes and how much they will cost. The residuary trustee, or envoy extraordinary, or resident representative of a political leader, man of destiny, or favorite son. The lieutenant of a candidate for office.) A WARD-HEELER holds his office not by appointment or election, but by his ability to corral the boys, as the sovereign voters of a ward are called. The ward-heeler must know all the keepers of groggeries in his ward and drop around frequently and buy the boys beer with somebody else's money. The ward-heeler keeps the boys in line and sees on election day that they vote once anyhow, and twice if they can. It used to be a part of his official duty to kick over the ballot box and walk off with the ballots if there were too many votes cast for the opposition candidate. That is not so much the fashion at present, but still followed in many localities. The ward-heeler gets his friends jobs on the police force or in the Street Cleaning department. He wears a quiet suit with a diamond in his necktie and a large ring with glass setting on his finger. He always talks in a husky voice and usually says: "Say, fellers, are you wid us or against us." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:47:14 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: of(t)en and "is all" Also, did anybody out there grow up pronouncing the "t" in often? I've only ever heard it done in poetry. Is the t-lessness an Americanism, or a regionalism? Kendra Banks Perry i grew up with the 't' in western new york state, and am glad to hear it whenever i go back, but i hear it sometimes in texas, and when i polled my south african students on it, about half claimed they used the 't', but i never paid enough attention to tell whether they were telling the truth. lynne of the long sentences -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:56:33 -0000 From: Muhammed Suleiman xtr08[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DIAL.PIPEX.COM Subject: Re: of(t)en and "is all" Dear Kendra, I live in the UK, and I can tell you that the pronunciation without t is considered to be the 'better' and 'standard' one, there is a tendency, however, for the t to come back into vogue, probably under the influence of the spelling. The t -pronunciation is however still normal in the northern dialects. Regards, Dr M. Suleiman Also, did anybody out there grow up pronouncing the "t" in often? I've only ever heard it done in poetry. Is the t-lessness an Americanism, or a regionalism? Kendra Banks Perry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:05:32 -0500 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: of(t)en My impression is that often (with the /t/) is increasing in use, at least among college students. I've considered it a spelling pronunciation, given that for several hundred years (no OED handy) the standard pronuncia- tion was without the /t/. But then, I'm still trying to figure out why one of my own children pronounces the /l/ in calm and palm. Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:16:27 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: goo Since you brought it up, Barry . . . The authors of AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS made a real flubber when they chose "goo" for 1902. I have "goo-goo" and "gooey" from the 19th century. perhaps the authors should explain that we were aware of this, and say so in the book. Here's the entry - 1902 Goo The 20th century got off to a gooey start. There was goo in the colleges and goo in the inventor's workshop. A survey of slang at a hundred colleges and universities, published in 1900, found goo used at twenty of them to mean "any liquid" and at one, Elmira College, "anything sticky." The American inventor Lee De Forest (1873-1961), later called "the father of radio," must have had those meanings in mind around the year 1902 when he invented a paste to coat the ends of wires and named it goo, as reported a year later. He also invented and patented the Audion, forerunner of the vacuum tube long used in radio and television. But while the Audion is obsolete, his goo has stuck with us. Gooey was also reported in the 1900 college survey, but only from Ithaca College, where it was explained as "Weird, making one creep." By 1903, however, gooey had adhered to goo and took on the meaning "sticky, not easily handled." In fact, goo words seem to have been the rage in the 1900s. Goo-goo eyes, probably developed from the baby's goo-goo of the 1860s, is first recorded in 1897. Googly eyes, large and round, date from 1901. Those words are apparently unrelated to the liquid or sticky goo, but they seem to have become entangled. Sometimes goo itself, when especially gooey, was called goo-goo, as early as 1903. During World War I it began to be called goop as well. ---------------- Not that "automatic" couldn't have been the word for 1902. Another great term for that year is "foolproof." Pick up a copy of the book at your local bookstore and create your own alternate list! - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:51:54 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: of(t)en and "is all" A colleague of mine from Akron (near the western NY State border) pronounces the /t/ in 'often'; but she also says 'better' with a [t] rather than a flap. Since I suspect the latter is "affected," I have wondered if the former is too--but maybe not. BTW, a visiting colleague (about 64) from London via Africa also says 'often' with a /t/. He claims he speaks not RP ("oh heavens no") but Educated Standard (London) English--learned in school, not in his London home neighborhood. How does this jibe with Mr. Suleiman's observation? Is it age-graded? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:38:47 -0000 From: Muhammed Suleiman xtr08[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DIAL.PIPEX.COM Subject: Re: of(t)en and "is all" Dear Beverly, it has to be remembered that Britain was, and to a large extent still is, a class society, and therefore we should think in terms of class-graded as well as age-graded distinctions.The Upper Classes for instance used to pronounce the initial o of the word as a long (back) vowel, a pronunciation which is still relatively common among them but which is certainly dying out ; the middle and lower classes would invariably find this affected. With regard to the presence or absence of t in the word _often_, however, people seem less critical.I think you are right in suggesting that the t is basically a spelling pronunciation. Regards, Dr M. Suleiman BTW, a visiting colleague (about 64) from London via Africa also says 'often' with a /t/. He claims he speaks not RP ("oh heavens no") but Educated Standard (London) English--learned in school, not in his London home neighborhood. How does this jibe with Mr. Suleiman's observation? Is it age-graded? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:41:41 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: goo 1902 Goo I wonder if Goo Goo Clusters, a candy made in Nashville, dates back to this era. It's interesting to see what interests different people who would choose only one word to represent a year. How society was influenced in the long or short range, or how language was affected in the long or short range. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:05:16 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: Nova (the car) At 12:37 PM 11/27/97 -0500, Gerald Cohen wrote: Also, too, although the "Ich bin ein Berliner" item should be removed from Mr. Crotty's list, the overall list itself is an interesting one. The marketing of the Nova ("It doesn't go") in Latin America--with its disastrously low sales for a while and with no one in management aware of the implication of the car's name--is breathtaking in retrospect. Apparently management was aware of the issue. This is taken from the alt.folklore.urban web page (www.urbanlegends.com): ------------------------------ From _Business Mexico_, June, 1993 [...] The most often cited auto blunder is the Chevrolet Nova (the phrase "No va" translates in Spanish as "It doesn't go") which General Motors wanted to bring into Mexico in the early 1970s. Although GM's Mexican managers were worried about the name, Nova was indeed used. "They kept the name and it sold very well," says marketing analyst Cecilia Bouleau, who disputes the conventional wisdom surrounding the moniker. "It's the same thing with Nova gasoline. I think that the word is sufficiently incorporated into the language as meaning 'new' -- as in 'bossa nova' -- that the criticism isn't valid." -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ****** The situation must have been different in different areas of Latin America. I remember a brief article in the _Wall Street Journal_ in the 1970s about what happened in Puerto Rico. Sales of the Nova were abysmal, and management had no clue why. So a meeting was called to discuss the matter, and at the meeting someone told management what was common knowledge among the workers: that the name "(It) doesn't go" (No va) was a major impediment to the sale of the car. Management soon changed the car's name to the Caribe, and sales picked up. I mentioned this story to one of my classes in the late l970s or early 1980s, and afterwards a Latin American student (from Venezuela, if I remember right) told me that in her country the car's name Nova was also regarded as a joke. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 1997 to 30 Nov 1997 ************************************************