Date:     Mon, 1 Nov 1993 15:07:11 -0800

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Death of Clarence L. Barnhart reported



I just spoke with David Barnahrt on the telephone. His father died

October 24, 1993. The obituary appeared in the _New York Times_

on October 26, 1993. Mr. Barnhart was born in 1900.

-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 00:15:38 -0500

From: "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject:   longhandles



The cold weather is here in Chicago, and my thoughts have turned to long

underwear, which, in my youth in NE Mississippi (Aberdeen) I learned to refer

to as "long-handles." I learned the term from friends who were white, lower

socio-economic class. Being a still-poor ABD Asst. Prof, I am not yet able

to afford DARE--so I haven't even been able to look the term up there. Is

there a citation for it, and just as important, has anyone else out there ever

heard this item? Thanks in advance for all responses.

Greg Pulliam

IIT



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 05:47:35 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



> The cold weather is here in Chicago, and my thoughts have turned to long

> underwear, which, in my youth in NE Mississippi (Aberdeen) I learned to refer

> to as "long-handles." I learned the term from friends who were white, lower

> socio-economic class. Being a still-poor ABD Asst. Prof, I am not yet able

> to afford DARE--so I haven't even been able to look the term up there. Is

> there a citation for it, and just as important, has anyone else out there ever

> heard this item? Thanks in advance for all responses.



I've heard it, although I don't think I've ever known anybody who actually

wore them. I've heard the term used in sort of a joking tone, like "Better

get out your long-handles -- it's gonna be cold today." The term is used

interchangeably with "long-johns."



I also am from Mississippi -- native of Jackson, resident of Starkville

for the past 20+ years.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:56:00 EST

From: "James_C.Stalker" <STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject:   longhandles



I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle

class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.

The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,

"countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to

wear such articles of clothing.



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:58:00 EST

From: "James_C.Stalker" <STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject:   longhandles



I signed off a little too quickly. The "longjohns" comment from the

ex-Louisville resident is from

Jim Stalker

Department of English

Michigan State University

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:20:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



ABD's, and others on a campus, may find volumes 1 & 2 of DARE in the

library.



beth simon

DARE



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 08:37:00 CDT

From: Luanne von Schneidemesser <LUANNEVONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   long-handles



Does DARE have long handles? Yes, and all kinds of

variants, as the list below shows:



GOURD HANDLES

HANDLEBARS

HANDLES

LONG HANDLE

LONG HANDLE DRAWERS

LONG HANDLE JOHNS

LONG HANDLE UNDERWEAR

LONG HANDLEBARS

LONG HANDLED UNDERWEAR

LONG HANDLEDS

LONG HANDLES

LONG-HANDLED DRAWERS

LONG-HANDLED UNDERWEAR

RED HANDLES

SHORT HANDLES



And yes, it is regional. Natalie and Jim are right. While

the North and North Midland may be unfamiliar with the term,

it is common in the rest of the country. We have 247 responses

with long handles or a form of it; add short handles, handlebars,

etc., and there are 261 responses.



And very soon we'll need them here in Wisconsin.



                Luanne



Luanne von Schneidemesser

Dictionary of American Regional English

6129 H.C. White, UW-Madison, 53706

(608)263-2748



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 09:40:25 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Salugi?



Impatient for the relevant volume of DARE to appear, I was wondering if anyone

out there in ADS-Land can help me pin down the distribution and, if possible,

history of this term, used regularly for a game (or teasing-event) popular in

New York City--or at least one part of the city--during the 1950's. The

phonetic representation can be given as something like [s[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU:ji], where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] is a

schwa and j is the usual voiced palatal affricate. I've never seen the word

in print, but always assumed it was Italian in origin, hence the spelling on

the subject line.  I'll post my own gloss after I get some responses.

                   Larry Horn

P.S. Of course, I wanted data or intuitions about the meaning as well--how

is/was salugi played?



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:01:00 CST

From: salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



 James_C.Stalker:

>I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle

>class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.

>The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,

>"countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to

>wear such articles of clothing.



 The term I was taught in Chicago, when several years ago I was advised how

to dress for the cold weather was "long Johns."

Salikoko S. Mufwene

Linguistics, U. of Chicago

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:30:45 EST

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: long-handles



Some of us new to the postings ---and libraries in general--- could bear to

hear news about the current status of DARE and publication plans for future

volumes of this most valuable of all projects.



And are there any chances of CD-ROM versions of the published text, or all

the text? Or on-line access?



The Internet makes dreamers of us all...



R.Kelly



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 12:40:42 EST

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Salugi?



I learned the term watching it played, maybe even being a victim of it. I gew

_digo_ grew up in Brooklyn, but learned the "game" in Manhattan and the Bronx.

It is that fine old vicious childhood game of stealing a kid's hat and tossing

it from hand to hand over the kid's head or around the kid's back, hand to

hand in a circle of tormentors. Usually the kid is fat or short or weak or

wrong sex or wrong color--in any case, it is certainly a Persecution Model game,

but it was only played with the hat or cap or scarf--never with book or bag or

object. I learned the word, then, in Northern New York City in the 1950s, and

have heard it nowhere else. When I use it nowadays (expressive as it is), I

get blank stares, even from people whose local origin suggests they know the

game. I'd love to know if the word is still used down there --- and even

whether the symbolic-torture has given way to real ones, of whether it's

still possible to vex in so symbolic a fashion.



Sometimes the game was introduced by an older child, or stronger child, saying

Hey, let's play salugi [I've never seen the word spelled out, and accept the

spelling at hand]! or even, more craftily, Wanna play salugi? This last

was esteemed especial fun, since the victim is complicit with his own fate.

There was the hint that salugi was rare and fine and special---perhaps the

word itself is one of those brilliant coinages, at the nonce rich with

connotation and void of denotation.



I await more news.



R.Kelly



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 10:07:59 -0800

From: Janice Kammert <jkammert[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



I grew up in an upper class suburb of Chicago in the 1960s-70s. We used the

term "longjohns." I even remember wearing them.



On Tue, 2 Nov 1993, James_C.Stalker wrote:



> I grew up in a suburb of Louisville, KY, mostly working and lower middle

> class.We used the term in my family, although we did not wear the garment.

> The term "longjohns" (always in the plural) was generally considered rural,

> "countrified," and, of course, we city-bred folk were too sophisticated to

>



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 13:57:47 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Salugi?



That's exactly it. I don't think your citing will widen the isogloss, but

whereabouts were you (more or less specifically) at the time? I was on West

163 St., Manhattan. I've always explained to friends outside the relevant

dialect area that salugi differs from keepaway precisely in that one couldn't

have proposed "Let's play salugi--I'll be it!" (Unless one was a masochist,

perhaps?) So you clearly have the same understanding of the form. Let's see

who else signs on.

                 Larry



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 14:02:53 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Anyone (else) for salugi?



Sorry, everyone. I hadn't noticed that the posting from R. Kelly went out to

the list rather than just to me--thus the reply I just posted to everyone. So

the secret is out. My familiarity with the term and the concept are the same

as that of the other poster. But please don't let that stop anyone else from

responding, whether or not your memories are the same. Is there any evidence

about when the term (or the "game") originated, whether it's still extant, or

(if not) when it died out? If the neighborhood in which I learned salugi

still plays it, they do so in Spanish, but perhaps it's around elsewhere.

Any DARE data?

                        Larry



Date:     Tue, 2 Nov 1993 16:31:56 -0500

From: james a tucker <jatuck00[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIK.UKY.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



I was raised on a farm in Lincoln County, Kentucky (in the

south-central part of the state) and often wore long

underwear while working outside during the winter. My

parents and grandparents always called them

long-handles (occasionally, long-johns). Hope this

helps.



---

--

-=+    James A. Tucker   jatuck00[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mik.uky.edu    +=-

-=+Classics/Economics Undergraduate University of Kentucky+=-

-=+    "Vex not thy spirit at the course of things;   +=-

-=+       They heed not thy vexation."       +=-

-=+     --Marcus Aurelius, quoting Euripides     +=-



Date:     Wed, 3 Nov 1993 02:23:08 CST

From: Donald Lance <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



Is there another term for longhandles? That's what they are. Just like

snake doctors and tow sacks. Others have funny terms for lotsa things.

DARE goes only thru H, sop we'll have to wait till next year for 'longjohns'.



I eagerly await the next installment.

It has been cold here too, with snow flurries, but not like Chi Town, I'm

sure.        DMLance



Date:     Wed, 3 Nov 1993 08:33:59 EST

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: Salugi?



Isogloss barely quivers: I first played salugi on West 155th street. Though

that was in a CCNY context, hence a false sense of the local. But interesting

that the instances were only eight blocks apart. Are we onto a Vinegar Hill

microlect?



RK



Date:     Wed, 3 Nov 1993 09:51:49 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Salugi



I asked an e-mail friend who grew up in the Bronx in the '50s if he

had ever heard of Salugi. Here's his reply (forwarded with his

permission):



> Date: Tue, 2 Nov 1993 23:03:12 -0600 (CST)

> From: "Ken Wolman" <woldoc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]woldoc.jvnc.net>

> Subject: RE: Salugi

>

> SLOODJIE! Oh my God, I haven't thought of that in years! It's like Hot

> Potato. Poor sucker in the middle tries to get the ball, or his hat back,

> or something....



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:14:15 +22305606

From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes."       <ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ABELLO.SECI.UCHILE.CL>

Subject:   longjohns



My father, a native Atlantan born in the 1920s, uses the term long-handled

underwear. It always has a slightly humorous connotation, as noted by Natalie.

Is this because such an artifact is so infrequently used in Georgia as to seem

somewhat ludicrous in itself? It's interesting to hear that others use the

term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's

speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.



Ellen Johnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl



P.S. Thanks for the replies on variation and TESOL. The conference paper went

over well and it gave me an opportunity to learn some new things and relearn

some old ones, since I trained and worked as a foreign language teacher several

years ago. I'm currently reading Sociolinguistics and Second Lg. Acquisition

by Dennis Preston and recommend it for anyone interested in the topic.



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:16:00 CDT

From: Joan Houston Hall <DARE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   salugi



DARE has several anecdotal quotes for -salugi-, all from NYC, from the

1950's-70's. The term has also made it into print, in Fred Ferretti's

book -The Great American Book of Sidewalk, Stoop, Dirt, Curb, and Alley

Games- (Workman Publishing Co., NY, 1975). Ferretti says: "-Saluggi,

or Saloogie-, is another rather simple game that derives from torment. Two or

 more players simply take something..from another kid

dashing up and down the sidewalk while the owner tries desperately to get

back his or her property. The only rules are that whoever catches the item

must shout, "Saloogie on Chris's knife!," or "Saloogie on Stevie's model

 plane!,"

or whatever and that the victim must be angry, which is not at all difficult.

It is not necessary to choose up for a game of Saloogie; rather, the predators

have to decide on a victim, which is also not difficult." Ferretti's domain is

 Queens.

Joan Hall, DARE



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:45:00 CDT

From: Joan Houston Hall <DARE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longhandles



The DARE data show some interesting contrasts for the long underwear terms.

There's a great map for -long handles-, showing a clear South, South Midland,

West distribution. The term -longies- fills in nicely in the North and

North Midland. -Long jeans- is found especially in the Central Atlantic and

New York. As for -long johns-, it's very widespread, but somewhat less

frequent in the South and South Midland. And -long drawers- is found

chiefly in the Atlantic states.

Joan Hall, DARE



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 08:18:57 -0800

From: Scott Schwenter <schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: salugi



>

> DARE has several anecdotal quotes for -salugi-, all from NYC, from the

> 1950's-70's. The term has also made it into print, in Fred Ferretti's

> book -The Great American Book of Sidewalk, Stoop, Dirt, Curb, and Alley

> Games- (Workman Publishing Co., NY, 1975). Ferretti says: "-Saluggi,

> or Saloogie-, is another rather simple game that derives from torment. Two or

> more players simply take something..from another kid

> dashing up and down the sidewalk while the owner tries desperately to get

> back his or her property. The only rules are that whoever catches the item

> must shout, "Saloogie on Chris's knife!," or "Saloogie on Stevie's model

> plane!,"

> or whatever and that the victim must be angry, which is not at all difficult.

> It is not necessary to choose up for a game of Saloogie; rather, the predators

> have to decide on a victim, which is also not difficult." Ferretti's domain i

s

> Queens.

> Joan Hall, DARE

>

Is this game the same as "monkey in the middle"?



Scott Schwenter

Linguistics

Stanford Univ.



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 11:16:41 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: longjohns



> term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's

> speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.



I also know "bumbershoot."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 13:27:35 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: salugi



In connection with Scott Schwenter's query on the relation of salugi to

monkey-in-the-middle: as I mentioned earlier, and brought out in various

other posts, salugi is/was a rather malicious "game" (game in the sense that

giving someone noogies or a pink belly is a game) that MUST have a victim, one

who is not a willing player. At least for me, m-in-the-m has no such

constraints (both for me as a child, and now for my own children, there's

nothing inappropriate or masochistic about the suggestion "Let's play

monkey-in-the-middle; I'll be it." The suggestion "Let's play salugi on me"

has the flavor of "Why don't you tease me until I cry?" This was New York,

remember.              LH



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 12:45:27 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: salugi



Funny timing. I forwarded some of the recent list discussion to my

friend who grew up in the Bronx and just got the following reply from

him (before I had even seen today's mention of Monkey-in-the-Middle):



> Sounds like saloogie/sloogie all right!

>

> Did I tell you it's also known as Monkey In The Middle? That's one I

> heard from Ann, who did not grow up in NYC, but on waaaaay out Eastern

> Long Island. You might wanna pass that on the ADS-L people, too.



(Ann is his wife.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 15:38:08 -0800

From: Donald Livingston <deljr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject:   Re: bumbershoot



"Bumbershoot" is alive and well in Seattle where we have a yearly music

festival by that name. That brings about sentences that would probably

have been unthinkable to previous generations: "Hey, are you going to

Bumbershoot this weekend?" I leave it to the reader to discern why

Seattle would name such a major musical event "Bumbershoot".



On Thu, 4 Nov 1993, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> > term, since I just assumed it was another of the idiosyncrasies of my dad's

> > speech, like bumbershoot for umbrella.

>

> I also know "bumbershoot."

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



All the best, Don.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don Livingston             (Graduate Student)

4500 Whitman Ave. North #2       Dept. Slav. Lang. & Lit., DP-32

Seattle, WA 98103            University of Washington

Phone/Fax (206) 634-1539        Seattle, WA 98195



Date:     Thu, 4 Nov 1993 19:55:39 -0800

From: Donald Livingston <deljr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject:   Proverb



Colleagues,



    Somewhere over the last year I encountered a proverb or

saying that expressed the following idea: When in John's house,

dont' rave about Jim's talents/possessions/activities lest John

feel that you are obliquely slighting him (John) by not saying the

same of him. Does anyone know a proverb to that effect? I think

it was an English language proverb, but could have been Slavic or

Semitic. Thanks for you consideration!



All the best, Don.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Don Livingston             (Graduate Student)

4500 Whitman Ave. North #2       Dept. Slav. Lang. & Lit., DP-32

Seattle, WA 98103            University of Washington

Phone/Fax (206) 634-1539        Seattle, WA 98195



Date:     Sun, 7 Nov 1993 19:35:54 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Canadian Fed Tax Refund



For all ADS members who will be in Toronto. I'm forwarding pertinent info

from Ed Lawson, Prog Chair for ANS.

----------------------------Original message----------------------------



             Refund for Visitors



 Visitors to Canada may claim a refund of the 7% GST (Goods &

 Services Tax) on leaving Canada. What you do is keep receipts

 for lodging and goods purchased. The total has to be over $100.

 You take the receipts to a desk in a duty free shop where an

 immediate cash refund in given (in Canadian dollars). The

 receipts are returned immediately. Meals do not count, nor does

 transportation.



 Note: this refund applies only to the federal tax, not to the

 Ontario provincial tax.



Ed Lawson Psych SUNY-Fredonia NY 14063 (LAWSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FREDONIA)



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA

From: "m. lynne murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject:   3 inches short



hello,



i've been told that the acceptability of sentence (1) below is regionally-

determined. i'd like to get a sense of where in the u.s. (or even outside

the u.s.) one can say the following:



(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches

   of the table that the cloth fails to cover)



(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.



(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)



If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:



(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).



(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off

   a bit before giving it to her).



Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the

package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals

10 degrees?



I'd appreciate judgments on these things from anyone and everyone.

Please indicate what area you're from or what dialect you consider

yourself to speak. Replies can be posted to me privately if you like.



Thanks in advance,

Lynne Murphy

University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg

104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:02:58 RSA

From: "m. lynne murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject:   addendum to 3" short



ach, i forgot an important question in the last message.



Can everyone say (a) and (b)?



(a) I was 10 minutes early for class.

(b) I was 10 minutes late for class.



thanks again for your time.



lynne murphy



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 09:26:01 -0500

From: "J. Chambers" <chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



My inland urban middle-class Canadian English usage apparently matches

Lynne Murphy's. I can say

    The tablecloth is 3" short

meaning it is too short to cover the whole table--3" remain uncovered.

But I can't say

    The tablecloth is 3" long

meaning it is that much too long. I have to say it's 3" too long. And

I can't ordinarily say that the package is 7 oz heavy, meaning that

much too heavy for UPS, and I certainly can't say the baby bottle is

10 degrees warm, meaning that much too warm. This last sentence more

probably would be

    The baby bottle is 10 degrees hot

but it doesn't help. It still can't mean that it's that much too hot.



So "short" appears to be a curiosity. I wonder if it's because "short"

is the marked member whereas "long" is the unmarked one, in Eve

Clark's terms. If so, then it should be o.k. to say

    The doorstopper is thin

meaning it's too thin to hold the door open, the door slips right over

it, but no good to say

    The doorstopper is thick

meaning it's too big to wedge under the door.To me, they sound equally

unlikely.                --Jack Chambers



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 17:07:53 RSA

From: lynne murphy <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



thanks for your response to my query.



lynne murphy



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:25:14 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches

>   of the table that the cloth fails to cover)



Yes.

>

>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.

>

No, unless there is a mark on the table -- but that is highly

contextualized.

>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)

>

Yes.



>If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:

>

>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).

No



>

>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off

>   a bit before giving it to her).



No.

>Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the

>package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals

>10 degrees?



But I can say, "The baby has a temperature" (=fever) and my mother

-in-law can say, "Dennis has cholesterol" (= high cholesterol). She's

from Chicago. I'm from NY.

>



So, M. Lynne, what else is new?

Dennis

--

debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu          (\          217-333-2392

                  \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron            \'\     ____________

Department of English        / '|    ()___________)

University of Illinois       \ '/    \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

608 South Wright St.         \      \ ~~~~~~~~~ \

Urbana, IL 61801           ==).     \ __________\

                   (__)      ()___________)



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:40:41 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



I'm also in the dialect group that gets 3 inches short (= 'too short for X')

but none of the other adjectives. Of course, '3 inches long' is pre-empted by

its ordinary measure-term use from meaning '...too long', but why don't we get

'3 inches narrow', '2 feet small', etc.? My colleague Caroline Heycock (who

is from Scotland, but shares the dialect feature) suggests a relationship to

expressions like 'I'm 5 cents short' (where again, X short = 'short by X

amount'), and we also get e.g. We're two {players/screws/knives/...} short.

In these cases, the 'too short for' paraphrase doesn't work, but 'short by'

does.

Notice too that I think everyone can get the 'too X' reading with adverbs like

'a bit', 'a little' modifying the measure adjective: a bit tall/short/green,

etc. all can be interprested as 'a bit TOO adj (for...)'. I'd assume this is

a general pragmatic process, though.

                Larry Horn



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:50:00 EST

From: Mark Ingram <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA m. lynne murphy said:

>hello,

>

>i've been told that the acceptability of sentence (1) below is regionally-

>determined. i'd like to get a sense of where in the u.s. (or even outside

>the u.s.) one can say the following:

>

>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches

>   of the table that the cloth fails to cover)



This sounds just fine. I understand completely and do not find it confusing.



>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.



This is more precise.



>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)



This is also more precise.

>If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:

>

>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).

>

>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off

>   a bit before giving it to her).

>

>Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the

>package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals

>10 degrees?



#4 and #5 are confusing. Is the package 7 oz too heavy? I think I need to

hear the word TOO in there. Same with a bottle 10 degrees TOO hot.



>I'd appreciate judgments on these things from anyone and everyone.

>Please indicate what area you're from or what dialect you consider

>yourself to speak. Replies can be posted to me privately if you like.



I grew up in the rural area just outside Louisville, Ky. We moved into

the suburbs of Louisville in the late 50s. I attended Catholic schools there.

I speak a regional standard. Some Kentuckians think I don't come from around

here. People from other states sometimes fail to place the accent. That is

a relatively common response to the speech patterns of someone from the

East end of Louisville.



Mark Ingram

Lexington, Ky.



>Thanks in advance,

>Lynne Murphy

>University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg

>104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 10:37:44 -0600

From: Anita Henderson <HEND%UKANVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: addendum to 3" short



Yes, I can say both"10 minutes early/late for class." (Phila.

area/middle-class).

A. Henderson Univ.of Kansas



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 13:13:00 CDT

From: Joan Houston Hall <DARE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: salugi



Monkey-in-the-middle can become the same as salugi, but it can also start as an

 officially sanctioned gym class game, with a circle

Joan Hall, DARE



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 14:22:35 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: salugi



I'm beginning to think (supported by postings like Joan Hall's and comments by

others outside the NYC dialect area) that there's a privative relation between

salug(g)i and monkey-in-the-middle/keepaway. Every instance of the former is

or can be an instance of the latter (modulo the actual speech act of

announcing "Salugi on your hat", etc.), but crucially not vice versa.

Salug(g)i can then be glossed essentially as monkey-in-the-middle with an

unwilling victim. (It's also crucial that the saluggied item be something

belonging to that victim.) For those reared in NYC during the relevant period

(the 1950's?), to come upon an innocent victimless game called

monkey-in-the-middle (or keepaway, which may or may not be the California

equivalent thereof[?]) leads to the inference that the teasing/torture variety

of the game doesn't fall within the scope of these labels, but the more

accurate conclusion is that NYC's salugi/monkey-in-the-middle distinction is

neutralized in the majority dialect, where the latter is simply unspecified

with respect to the [+/- unwilling victim] distinction.



                           Larry Horn



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:09:47 CST

From: Gerald Walton <VCGW%UMSVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:45:47 RSA m. lynne murphy raised questions about

the acceptability of certain sentences:



>(1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches

>   of the table that the cloth fails to cover)



Acceptable to me, though adding _too_ would be preferred.



>(2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.



Acceptable.



>(3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)



Yes, I would think it universally acceptable.



>(4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).



Not acceptable.



>(5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off

>   a bit before giving it to her).



Not acceptable.



"Acceptable" as I have used it means something like "would not be

used by speakers from my part of the country--almost 60 years

in Mississippi. GWW



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 15:17:30 CST

From: Gerald Walton <VCGW%UMSVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: addendum to 3" short



On Mon, 8 Nov 1993 16:02:58 RSA m. lynne murphy said:

>Can everyone say (a) and (b)?

>(a) I was 10 minutes early for class.

>(b) I was 10 minutes late for class.



Yes from me. GWW



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:28:56 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



Lynn has already thanked those who responded to her query about a table

cloth being 3" short. Of the questions she asked, that's the only one that

seems to be dialectal and that I say ("short of the mark"not seeming dialectal

to me). My language comes from growing up in South Texas with many neighbors

from all parts of the country. But this expression was also common in the

speech of my parents, both born in Arkansas.



By the way, a table cloth that is 3" short might go over the edges of the

table (i.e., actually cover all of the top) but be shorter than it oughta be

by 3".

   DMLance



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 19:24:46 -0800

From: Donald Livingston <deljr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



I find myself having interesting reactions to the sentences Lynn posted.

Though I myself would only actually produce a few of those forms, I would

not at all be surprised to hear almost any of them from local speakers

where I grew up, though I would consider some of them careless

speech, that is, that the speaker was not choosing his/her words

particularly carefully. I grew up in Tucson, Arizona (WASP middle class

family). I consider myself to speak standard TV broadcaster English.



> (1) The tablecloth is three inches short. (meaning there are three inches

>   of the table that the cloth fails to cover)



Sounds normal to me in careless speech. I would say it occasionally

(Sorry, Lynne, changed my mind on this one).



> (2) The tablecloth is three inches short of the mark.



Sounds grammatically normal to me, though somewhat high style. I would

rarely say it.



> (3) The tablecloth is three inches too short. (universally accepted, right?)



Absolutely normal.



> If sentence (1) is ok with you, can you also say:

>

> (4) The package is 7 ounces heavy (and thus can't be shipped via UPS).



Sounds normal to me in careless speech. I wouldn't at all be surprised

to hear it at the local post office. I would never say it.



> (5) The baby's bottle is 10 degrees warm (so you'd better cool it off

>   a bit before giving it to her).



Sounds normal in careless speech. I would never say it, though.



> Is there anyone for whom (4) and (5) could mean that the weight of the

> package equals 7 ounces or the temperature of the baby's bottle equals

> 10 degrees?



I would not at all be surprised to hear (4) and (5) with these meanings

in careless speech, but would never produce (4) with that meaning and

would only rarely produce (5) with that meaning.



Both (a) and (b) of the addendum are fine with my in all speech registers.



All the best, Don.



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 12:57:27 EST

From: Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: three inches



As I mentioned earlier, my British colleague Caroline Heycock (Glaswegian by

birth) shares the same judgment everyone else has on this, viz. that '3 inches

short' is impeccable, with the understanding 'short by 3 inches'. Indeed,

nobody has reported LACKING this form. So I checked the OED, and sure enough

under 18f of the adjectival listing for 'short' we have:



  Preceded by a sb. or an expression of quantity, indicating what is lacking

  of the required number or amount.



  (Citations include 'We are a lady short' [1893], 'two pounds short in his

  cash')



The point is that '3 inches short' is not a dialectal usage (in the sense that

only a specific geographically or socially definable group has it), and that

it's not a DISTINCT usage from that of 'X short', where X is ANY measure

expression whose semantics fits the context.

                        Larry Horn



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 13:08:04 EST

From: Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject:   Re: three inches



While I (New York born) find "...short" natural and normal, my wife (Boston

born and raised) understands it but would never perform it, choosing

rather "...too short." So there may be a wiggling isoglossette after all.



Robert Kelly



Date:     Mon, 8 Nov 1993 23:48:33 -0700

From: Rudy Troike <RTROIKE%ARIZVMS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



I grew up 150 miles south of Don Lance, on the Mexican border in South Texas

and agree with most of the intuitions posted to date. The paraphrase "short

BY three inches/dollars" seems best to capture the sense.

        --Rudy Troike



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:18:53 RSA

From: lynne murphy <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject:   three inches



well, the response to my query re: three inches short is

very appreciated. however, so far it doesn't seem that there is

any regionality to the distribution of three inches short,

since everybody seems to think it's ok. am i wrong?



lynne murphy

university of the witwatersrand

104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]witsvma.wits.ac.za



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 07:48:00 EST

From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



There are indeed some interesting things to be said about 'short.'

First, it is surely not a matter of marked and unmarked. Neither of the pairs

narrow-wide, old-young, and so on fit the pattern 'It was three inches (years)

X' in the sense intended.

Note, however, that 'short' appears to be the only one of these forms which

has a verbal counterpart ('He shorted me three dollars,' 'They shorted me

three pounds,' and so on).

Additionally, this 'short' is surely no ndifferent than a host of other items

which fit this construction: 'It was three inches off,' 'It was three enches

shy,' 'It was three inches over,' 'It was three inches under.' All these

express the intended 'not to the standard or expected' interpretation.

Shouldn't we be looking at this wider range of facts? It strikes me that all

too often when we do dialect work we focus too narrowly on items.

By the way, although I do not think it is particularly important to this

discussion, I am an old lower-middle/upper-working class white man from

southern Indiana (far north side of Louisville, KY).

Dennis Preston

<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet>



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 08:52:27 EST

From: Boyd Davis <FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



Lynne, my dialect area - and my responses - match Dennis Preston's.



Dennis, wouldn't the notion of shortlisting fit here? I cannot think of

*longlisting



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 10:28:03 -0700

From: Rudy Troike <RTROIKE%ARIZVMS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: three inches



I spoke to a visiting German prof from Dresden the other day, who could

hardly be strongly influenced by American English, and found that she had

the same interpretation of "three inches short".

    Do we have any British speakers to ask?

                --Rudy Troike



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 15:50:32 -0230

From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive"<philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>

Subject:   Place names with 'eye'; Maritime Troytowns



In researching the origin of three Newfoundland placenames, two now

called "Traytown" and one now called "Triton," a local historian

has come upon the same spelling "Troy Town" used for all three at

one time or another in their histories. He asked me for an opinion

and I ventured that their particularly convoluted waterways led

18th and 19th sailors to refer to each place as a "troy town"

(aka "troyton", hence modern "Triton"), meaning maze-like.

    I am familiar with the widespread use of "troytown" in

English and Scandinavian placenames for the sites of pre-historic

and medieval mazes cut into turf, etc. One such place was not far

from Poole, out of which port many Newfoundland settlers came.

But I do not know of any such placenames in North America, other than

these three in Newfoundland. Can anyone point me in the direction

of a Troytown (or a Troy) in North America that was not named simply

for classical allusion?

    One of these Traytowns is on a small island now called

"Ireland's Eye," the main harbour of which is shaped like a helix or

volute. Convoluted indeed. I suspect the harbour was called the Island's

Eye, a name which folk etymologized into Ireland's Eye by the late 17th

century. I would be stronger in my conviction about this if I knew of some

other placenames, on either side of the Atlantic, with "Eye" referring

to a kind of volute or spiral shape.

    Any takers?

            Philip Hiscock

            MUN Folklore & Language Archive

            Memorial University of Newfoundland

            St John's, Newfoundland

philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 16:31:39 -0800

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Re: 3 inches short



Your message dated: Mon, 8 Nov 1993 23:48:33 -0700

--------

> I grew up 150 miles south of Don Lance, on the Mexican border in South Texas

> and agree with most of the intuitions posted to date. The paraphrase "short

> BY three inches/dollars" seems best to capture the sense.

>         --Rudy Troike



I grew up 1500 miles north of Don and Rudy, on the Montana/Canadian border.

"3 inches short" doesn't have to be paraphrased, because that's the

unmarked form for me.



-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



Date:     Tue, 9 Nov 1993 11:15:41 -0600

From: Joan Livingston-Webber <webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU>

Subject:   3" short



I would say the tablecloth is 3 inches short. I'd be more

likely to say this hem is 3 inches short, not having much

use for tablecloths. But I wouldn't say he is 3 inches

short (meaning too short for some purpose). (The giggle-

allusion is inadvertant, but I'm letting it stand.) I don't

think 3 inches short works for me with any animate subject. I

want to add some goal. The dog is 3 inches short of

AKC standards.



None of the other options works for me except the universal

one.



10 minutes late or early both work.



1st dialect = sw Pennsylvania, 1950-60's.

adult dialect adds from ND and IN. I don't know which one I

speak. I can't speak either and be heard as a native, tho if

I went home for long enough, I might.

--

Joan Livingston-Webber  webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu

"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG



Date:     Mon, 15 Nov 1993 22:31:55 -0400

From: George Graham <GGRAHAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PSTCC.CC.TN.US>

Subject:   song



===============================================================

A question arose the other day.



Some of my nursing students told me about a tape which helped them learn

the parts of the body by using music to stimulate memory.



So I bought one for myself (actually I used the excuse that my 7th grader

needed it). As I was listening to one of the songs the phrase was used ...

heading down south ... the phrase was in relation to the food moving down into

 the stomach.



But I wasn't sure of the origin ... was it from the verticle position of a map

 on the

wall ... and south being DOWN ????



Anyone have an idea ???

George G

ggraham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pstcc.cc.tn.us



Date:     Tue, 16 Nov 1993 07:37:11 EST

From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject:   Re: song



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" <MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>



The metaphor is fairly common: profits typically head south in a recession.

Analogously, dead cowboys head west [toward the setting sun].



David Bergdahl

Ohio University/Athens



Date:     Tue, 16 Nov 1993 11:58:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   an address



does anyone have the list address for the Functional Linguistics list?



if so, please contact me. Thanks



beth simon

blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu



Date:     Tue, 16 Nov 1993 21:31:00 CDT

From: Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: song



Has anyone else already mentioned that "gone south" means, or can mean,

"died"?



Beth Simon

DARE



Date:     Tue, 16 Nov 1993 23:57:50 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: song



Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?

       Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?

We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't

say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?

These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices

contribute to these uses, but map directions don't  explain "down east".

                     DMLance





Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:54:57 -0230

From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive"<philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA>

Subject:   Down North



"Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET> said,

>

>Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?

>       Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"?

>We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't

>say "out north" or "out south" or "down west", would we?

>These seem to me to be set expressions, and certainly mapping practices

>contribute to these uses, but map directions don't  explain "down east".

>                     DMLance



    Here in Newfoundland one hears "down north" with pretty high

frequency, along with the folk explanation that old maps used to be

printed "upside-down." One also hears phrases like "up the Shore"

meaning south along what is called the Southern Shore (which runs

north-south, near St John's). "Up" often means "south", but only

rarely do you hear the collocation "up south."

    "Down" a bay usually means towards the "bottom" (= the most

inland part) no matter what direction that takes you on the map.

    The direction or movement from Newfoundland to Canada is

usually referred to as "up to Canada", or "up to the mainland" - this

is more or less west on the map. Although the phrase "down east" is often

used by Mainers and Maritime Canadians ( = PEI, NB and NS), I don't think

it is used by Newfoundlanders to refer to their home territory.



    In Shakespeare's sonnet, I forget which number, he uses

"lowlands" or "nether regions" for the pubic area, but I can't remember

whether he uses a "south" metaphor. It seems to me he might have.

 Does anyone have the sonnets close at hand?

                -Philip Hiscock

philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 08:00:00 CST

From: Edward Callary <TB0EXC1%NIU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>



 'South' equates with 'down' in a number of ways. I agree with Don

Lance that these are set expressions. I do, though, find

'out east' very awkward; I prefer 'back East.'

Remember my rapidly receding high school days, when a

female student had a tad of slip showing, we would always

say to her 'It's snowing down South.'



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:27:01 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: song



>We use 'out' with 'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'.



Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.

say they're going down to Boston, which is north.



Dennis

--



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Re: song



> Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.

> say they're going down to Boston, which is north.



Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500

From: GURT%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu

Subject:   Re: song



I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.



Joan C. Cook

Department of Linguistics

Georgetown University

gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 10:24:47 -0800

From: Roger Vanderveen <rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM>

Subject:   song



  I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.



I disagree. In keeping with the subject of this message, I quote part of an

folk song:



    A north country maid

     Down to London had strayed,

    Although with her nature

     It did not agree.



I will add though, in Cornwall in the southwest, they talk about going

"up to England". This would be generally a northeast direction.



-- Roger



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:41:12 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: song



In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600,

 Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU> writes:



>> Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.

>> say they're going down to Boston, which is north.

>

>Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



They also go up to university and if they aren't good get sent down.

Which means, I suppose, they can go both up and down to London from

Cambridge. Rather like the old days when I walked 5 miles to school

in the snow uphill both ways.



Dennis

--



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 14:45:00 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: song



In Message Wed, 17 Nov 1993 12:11:07 -0500, GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet writes:



>I think *everyone* in England goes "up" to London.

>

>Joan C. Cook

>Department of Linguistics

>Georgetown University

>gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu



And here in the US, depending on local custom, we go uptown or downtown

to get to the main part of town. I grew up in NYC--in Queens--and

when we went to Manhattan we always said we were going "To the city."

To go uptown or to go downtown also means to do something with energy,

to solo (musically or otherwise). And of course, crosstown busses run

all night. Doo dah. Doo dah.



Dennis

--



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 17:33:22 EST

From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject:   Re: song



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" <MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>



Don,

Down east makes sense as a direction: on the maine coast a storm that comes from

the Atlantic provinces of Canada comes down [out of the] east.



David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"

BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:26:42 -0600

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject:   Bounced Mail



When including a previous posting, be sure to edit out all references

to ADS-L in the headers.



> Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:48:16 -0500

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from LEVY.BARD.EDU

> To: Natalie Maynor <MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 6914 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ---------------------- Message in error (40 lines) -------------------------

> Date: Wed, 17 Nov 93 21:47:41 EST

> From: kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]levy.bard.edu (Robert Kelly)

> Subject: Re: song

>

> Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 09:51:33 -0600

> From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

> Subject:   Re: song

>

> > Yes, Don, but down east is Maine, and Maine is north. People in R.I.

> > say they're going down to Boston, which is north.

>

> Just as people in Cambridge go "up" to London.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

> and people thrown out of Cambridge, whether they are headed N, E, S or W

> are "sent down."

>

> rk



Date:     Wed, 17 Nov 1993 21:53:13 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Long-Awaited Book



The long-awaited book on language variation teaching and research is "in the

mail." Glowka and I got preview copies of the paperback last week.

LANGUAGE VARIATION IN NORTH AMERICAN ENGLISH: RESEARCH AND TEACHING, eds.

A. Wayne Glowka & Donald M. Lance. Published by MLA. Looks really good.



They've highlighted this volume in their latest publications announcement --

a two-page spread, twice as much space as they gave any other publication.

I understand they're gonna display it prominently at the book exhibit in

Toronto. And we'll have a copy at the BYOB session at ADS.



Thirty-nine original articles -- including Wolfram, Cassidy, Harold Allen,

and some luminaries too.       DMLance



Date:     Thu, 18 Nov 1993 07:56:42 +0500

From: Robert Howren <howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>

Subject:   down north



Donald M. Lance wrote:



>Doesn't 'south' collocate with 'down' and 'north' with 'up' in general?

>Would any of you ever say "up south" or "down north"? We use 'out' with

>'east' and 'west', and 'down' with 'east'. We wouldn't say "out north" or

>"out south" or "down west", would we? These seem to me to be set

>expressions, and certainly mapping practices contribute to these uses, but

>map directions don't explain "down east".



In at least the western part of the McKenzie District of the Northwest

Territories of Canada, the regular association of "down" with north is due

to the presence of the McKenzie River, which flows for a thousand miles

north from Great Slave Lake to the Arctic coast. In the NWT, one goes

"down to Inuvik," which is at the McKenzie delta. Incidentally, from the

Territories, one goes "outside" to the provinces, or "out to Edmonton."



--Bob Howren  Dept of Linguistics   UNC-Chapel Hill

 r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu



Date:     Thu, 18 Nov 1993 10:58:25 EST

From: Boyd Davis <FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>

Subject:   up south



"up south" has been in use here, in the Charlotte area, for at least the

last 25 years, primarily by the African-American community, with a

restricted and ironic meaning. The 'last 25 years' refers only to how

long I've been hearing this term. My colleague Mary Harper says that it

is an ironic, tongue-in-cheek way of saying that African-Americans find

the same problems above the Mason-Dixon line as below. Exchanges like

"Where's Anne been lately?" "She's been up south in Philadelphia/New

York/etc" mean that Anne went to Philadelphia/etc for more than a casual

visit to relatives or friends, probably related to employment, and found

conditions no different. Harper adds that the phrase has probably been

in use, at least locally, since WWII. African-American students at our

university who have grown up in the area often tease A-A students coming

here from New Jersey, New York, DC area, etc., by saying that they come

from 'up south' -- which is a multiple message. Part of the message is

"Excuse me, please, you may drop your sophisticated manner and your

expectations that I am a rustic, because you actually live up south -

that is, you have grown up under the same social realities that operate

on me, though you may not realize it - and this country mouse may know

a bit more about the real world than you do."

   Harper reports that she has never heard *"down north" in any

sense. She sends a question for the group about "outin'":

People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years

ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In

the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its

occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.

Is this usage regionally restricted?



Date:     Thu, 18 Nov 1993 15:45:45 CST

From: Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject:   Re: up south



>She sends a question for the group about "outin'":

>People in the Piedmont NC area have referred - up until a few years

>ago - to flannel nightwear as "outin'" (from 'outing flannel'). In

>the last few years, this usage seems to have disappeared and its

>occurence limited to the over-50 - and especially over-70 - group.

>Is this usage regionally restricted?



Regionally restricted or not, outing may be driven out by the new

meaning of outing.



--

Dennis



Date:     Fri, 19 Nov 1993 07:54:58 +0500

From: Robert Howren <howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>

Subject:   outin'



On Boyd Davis's query about "outin'":

I remember "outin" in this meaning from my childhood in northwest

Georgia. (I'm 64.)

==Bob Howren Dept. of Linguistics UNC-Chapel Hill r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu==



Date:     Fri, 19 Nov 1993 11:03:23 +22305606

From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes." <ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ABELLO.SECI.UCHILE.CL>

Subject:   uptown/barrios altos



In Atlanta there was traditionally an Uptown and a Downtown, the latter being

Five Points and the former near where Macy's is today. This may go back to a

time when there was actually some fairly empty space separating the two.

I've only heard it from natives of 50+ years old. It doesn't seem to have much

meaning currently. For one thing, what may have once been two separate

commercial districts runs together now, and for another, there aren't as many

natives left working downtown who might make this distinction.



I would only use 'uptown' in this restricted sense, I think. Here in Santiago,

I always come downtown to work on my e-mail at the computer center of the

university, never uptown.



The 'suburb' (very urban to me) where I live is the beginning of the 'barrios

altos', or, roughly, 'high neighborhoods'. This includes Providencia and newer

suburbs toward the east. The only catch is that there is a negligible, if any,

difference in altitude, as far as I can tell. It IS in the direction toward

the Cordillera of the Andes, but it is not hilly at all, except for the

isolated bumps or 'cerros' that occur at various locations around and in the

city. It might be a metaphor arising in the fact that these neighborhoods are

inhabited mostly by the rich. What may have been a metaphor is taken quite

literally, however. Many people have explained to me that there is less

pollution, that the air is clearer in these barrios altos (presumably because

of their height), but again, if this

is so, I can't tell any difference. Perhaps they breathe easier there, but for

other reasons... 'Up' is always applied to this area.



Ellen Johnson

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl



Date:     Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:49 EST

From: BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject:   Re: uptown/barrios altos



Here in Athens Ohio--one of those college towns three blocks long and two blocks

wide--for thirty years at least the kids have said they "uptown" to the bars

because Athens is too small to have a downtown!

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"

BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



Date:     Fri, 19 Nov 1993 17:42:35 -0500

From: Cathy Ball <CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: Diversity of accents



Thanks to everyone who responded to my query a while back re: diversity

of accents in the U.S. Here's the outcome (sorry it took so long!; original

copies are on their way to Robert Wachal and Donald Livingston, who got

cited.)



 -- Cathy Ball (Georgetown)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Washington Post, Friday 10/15/1993 p. D5 (Style Section)



Why Things Are

by Joel Achenbach, Washington Post Staff Writer



James R, Odom of Olney asks:

"Why do people in different sections of the country speak with regional

accents?"



    Dear Jim: We passed this question along to Cathy Ball, a linguist at

Georgetown University, and she then sent it out to the Internet (you know,

that big web of computers that spans the globe) to her colleagues in the

American Dialect Society.



    We learned that accents are basically a product of immigration.

German immigrants settled in Pennsylvania, English and French

immigrants and African slaves in the Deep South, Scotch-Irish settlers in

the hills of Appalachia, Scandinavians in Minnesota, and so on. Accents

can mutate over time. "Members of lower socioeconomic classes often

imitate the speech of those in the class above them. The class above them

then adopts other features to distinguish them from the classes below

them," notes Robert Wachal of the University of Iowa. (Before the

Thurston Howells developed that lockjaw accent, they said "y'all" just like

everyone else.)



    What surprised us most is that almost everyone said that

Americans don't have a great diversity of accents or dialects, at least not

anymore. Accents are preserved by geographic isolation, and with the

advent of mass media, many accents are melting away. Soon we'll all

sound like Tom Brokaw (but without the slight lisp). "The diversity of

accents in the U.S. is fairly narrow compared to, say, the diversity of

accents within just London proper," says Donald Livingston of the

University of Washington.

    So maybe everyone should vow, this moment, to start pronouncing

words in a peculiar fashion (pronounced puh-KOOL-ya FATCH-un).



Date:     Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:16:35 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: Long-Awaited Book



I've had a request to post more information on the "long-awaited" book.

Language Variation in North American English: Research and Teaching, eds.

A. Wayne Glowka and Donald M. Lance. Modern Language Association. Available

in December 1993. Cloth ISBN 389-X[E301C] $37.50 (MLA members $30).

Paper ISBN 390-3[E301P] $19.75 (MLA members $15.80.

Modern Language Association, 10 Astor Place, New York NY 10003-6981. Phone

orders 212/614-6384. Fax order 212/477-9863.



As you're thinking of books for your research and/or your dialect seminars,

also keep in mind another excellent ADS Centennial 1993 book:

American Dialect Research, ed. Dennis R. Preston. John Benjamins, 1993.

Maybe Dennis can post ordering info on the List.    DMLance



Date:     Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:30:02 CST

From: "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   Re: outin'



I remember my mother (born sw Arkansas) talking about outing (night)gowns.

The fabric looked like flannel to me.

                   DMLance



Date:     Sat, 20 Nov 1993 14:49:53 -0600

From: Alan Slotkin <ARS7950%TNTECH.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject:   linguistic nationalism



I have an undergraduate student who has become interested in the politics of

language, especially the use of a majority language to repress minorities,

English-only style movements, and related topics. As this is far removed

from my areas of interest, I'm at a loss on recommending recent--and fairly

elementary--sources for him. Any suggestions. I'd appreciate your

responding directly to me:



Alan Slotkin

ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.BITNET



Thanks.



Alan



Date:     Sat, 20 Nov 1993 18:25:32 -0800

From: "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDROCK.NEVADA.EDU>

Subject:   Re: uptown/barrios altos



Your message dated: Fri, 19 Nov 1993 14:06:49 EST

--------

> From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

> Here in Athens Ohio--one of those college towns three blocks long and two blo

    ***cks

> wide--for thirty years at least the kids have said they "uptown" to the bars

> because Athens is too small to have a downtown!

> David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia"

> BERGDAHL [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU



As I recall Athens (fondly) David, I remember that from the East Quad,

students had to struggle up a steep hill to get to the uptown bars. Same

held true for the South Quad, "down" by the stadium (Bobcat's Sandbox).

Most of the dorms were down in these hollers, and only the frats were

"up" on the hill, near admin, and Oh Yes, My Lovely, the English Dept.

  In fact, as I recall, it was uphill both ways from where I lived on

Stewart Street.



-------------------------------------------------------

Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154 (Gateway to Idaho)

tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu



Date:   Tue, 23 Nov 1993 00:00:48 -0500

From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1993 to 22 Nov 1993



There are 13 messages totalling 317 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. linguistic nationalism (2)

 2. Diversity of accents (10)

 3. song



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 22 Nov 1993 08:36:21 -0500

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." <billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: linguistic nationalism



I think the language planning section of Ralph Fasold's *The

Sociolinguistics of Society* (Blackwell, 1984) would be an excellent

place to start (the last three chapters, 70 pp.). If your student is

motivated, you might also suggest the three chapters before that, on

language attitudes, choice, and maintenance (c. 100 pp.). Our English

First movement seems to me to be motivated by just the collection of

fears and special interests that everybody else in the world of language

planning is trying to deal with.



******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga