There are 4 messages totalling 159 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. New Words, Etymology, Lexicography 2. Call: Symposium on Language Loss 3. help wanted (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 13:30:25 -0700 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: New Words, Etymology, Lexicography Do any of you know where on the net, if not here, those most interested in new words, their origin and usage, and in etymology and lexicography more generally, might hang out? Where, for example, are the word mavens and language irregulars of William Safire's column? (I don't want to be one, I want to talk with them). Where are those who compile the major English Language dictionaries, or dictionaries of new words or slang, likely to be found on the Net? Please send any insights or other help you might have either here or to me personally. Thanks. Jim Beniger ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 15:18:00 MST From: Garland Bills GBILLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNMB.BITNET Subject: Call: Symposium on Language Loss CALL FOR PAPERS Symposium on Language Loss and Public Policy in conjunction with the 1995 Linguistic Institute of the Linguistic Society of America University of New Mexico Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA June 30-July 2, 1995 The Symposium on Language Loss and Public Policy will bring together scholars from different disciplines to discuss the linguistic, psycholinguistic, sociolinguistic, cultural, and policy aspects of language loss. LANGUAGE LOSS is used here in its broadest sense to subsume three areas of investigation: (1) the ATTRITION of native language skills by individual members of indigenous and immigrant communities; (2) societal SHIFT from the use of the native ethnic language to the use of a dominant official language; and (3) the consequent DEATH of the subordinate language. The clear interrelationships among these three areas -- in the linguistic processes involved and especially in the societal conditions that give rise to loss -- gives a meeting such as this Symposium considerable scholarly significance. The fact that the incidence of linguistic and cultural disruption worldwide is rapidly accelerating also makes the need for such a Symposium pressing. The presenters will explore with each other and with other participants in the 1995 Linguistic Institute the accumulated knowledge in the three areas of language loss in order to arrive at a more global understanding of the relationships among the linguistic processes in loss, its underlying causes, its consequences for individuals and societies, and the implications for policy intervention. Central objectives of the Symposium will be, in light of what is known about language loss, to examine its ecological significance, that is, its effects on individuals, communities, and society as a whole, as well as the policy implications of what is now seen to be a worldwide and rapidly accelerating phenomenon. Another important objective is to provide information to members of the wider community both as an educational objective and as a resource for those concerned with questions of policy. Persons intending to submit a formal abstract for the Symposium should send an expression of interest by November 1, 1994. This preliminary submission should include a tentative title and specification of the language situation(s) examined, the area of language loss that will be the emphasis of the report, and whether the paper will focus on the nature and causes of loss or on the consequences of loss and policy implications. The deadline for receipt of formal abstracts providing greater details is January 31, 1995. Abstracts should not exceed 500 words, and may be submitted by regular mail, FAX, or electronic mail. In order to make papers available to other participants in advance of the Symposium, presenters will be asked to submit pre-publication versions of their papers by May 15, 1995. Publishable versions of the papers will be due at the Symposium. Preliminary expressions of interest, formal abstracts, and requests for additional information should be directed to: Garland D. Bills Department of Linguistics University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA Telephone: (505) 277-7416 or (505) 277-0324 FAX: (505) 277-6355 E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bootes.unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 22:42:52 CST From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: help wanted ADSers: As you may have noticed in NADS, I'm giving a talk in San Diego on terms used in children's games, based of course on DARE's evidence. I would like to compare to that what is said by younger people in different parts of the country today, 25 years later. If you could help me by having a handful of your students/friends/acquaintances/collegues who are native to your area fill out a two-page questionnaire, questions from DARE's questionnaire, I would appreciate it greatly. Please let me know and I'll send you the questionnaire and postage. (From my own children I know a couple of these terms have changed around here. I'm interested in seeing which ones, how much, where, etc. Results to be related in San Diego.) Thanks very much. Luanne v. S. Luanne von Schneidemesser, 608-263-2748 DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706 lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Oct 1994 22:55:53 -0500 From: Frank Mark R mrf546t[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIC.SMSU.EDU Subject: Re: help wanted On Sun, 2 Oct 1994, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: ADSers: As you may have noticed in NADS, I'm giving a talk in San Diego on terms used in children's games, based of course on DARE's evidence. I would like to compare to that what is said by younger people in different parts of the country today, 25 years later. If you could help me by having a handful of your students/friends/acquaintances/collegues who are native to your area fill out a two-page questionnaire, questions from DARE's questionnaire, I would appreciate it greatly. Please let me know and I'll send you the questionnaire and postage. (From my own children I know a couple of these terms have changed around here. I'm interested in seeing which ones, how much, where, etc. Results to be related in San Diego.) Thanks very much. Luanne v. S. What is the specific target age group for your questionnaire? I would be interested in helping you. I am a native of the Springfield, MO area. --Mark Frank ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Sep 1994 to 2 Oct 1994 *********************************************** There are 7 messages totalling 145 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. help wanted (3) 2. dialect leveling (3) 3. Common ground? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 08:58:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: Re: help wanted Luanne: I would be happy to question as many of my northern illinois students as you think would be helpful. just send me the materials. edward callary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 09:40:50 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: dialect leveling I have a student (undergraduate in an intro. ling. course) who wants to do a paper concerning the leveling of dialects among persons who move around a good bit. As an "army brat" she's had her own native dialect essentially obliterated through contacts, and is extremely interested in pursuing the topic. Does anyone have references, suggestions, etc., that would help her in this regard? I'd really appreciate your responses. If there is enough material to warrant it, I'll put a summary out to the list. Please respond directly to me: Alan Slotkin, Tn Technological Univ. ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:44:56 -0400 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: dialect leveling The first citation that I know about for the effects of army personnel on dialect is McDavid's "Postvocalic -r in South Carolina: A Social Analysis" (AmSp 23, 1948), which suggests that the influx of army people might be changing patterns of use of -r in SC. The best recent article is, I think, J. K. Chambers' article in *Language* (1992) called "Dialct Acquisition", which is the product of a long period of work and has lots of references. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 16:05:00 EDT From: Travis Kidd TKIDD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEMSON.EDU Subject: Re: dialect leveling On Mon, 3 Oct 1994 10:44:56 -0400 "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA .EDU said: The first citation that I know about for the effects of army personnel on dialect is McDavid's "Postvocalic -r in South Carolina: A Social Analysis" (AmSp 23, 1948), which suggests that the influx of army people might be changing patterns of use of -r in SC. The best recent article is, I think, J. K. Chambers' article in *Language* (1992) called "Dialct Acquisition", which is the product of a long period of work and has lots of references. As a South Carolinian, I would like to know what you are talking about! Regards, Bill University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga -Travis P.S. If you thought Alabama was a hard team to play, just wait till THIS Saturday! :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:44:04 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: help wanted Dear Luanne, Sorry to reply directly to the list, but I would be happy to admin your questionnare. In fact, I will use it in a dialect class I am teaching now, if that meets with your approval. I am in Eastern Kentucky, so that gives you a sense of the target group you will have to add to your data base. Send me the materials at the smail below. ADSers: As you may have noticed in NADS, I'm giving a talk in San Diego on terms used in children's games, based of course on DARE's evidence. I would like to compare to that what is said by younger people in different parts of the country today, 25 years later. If you could help me by having a handful of your students/friends/acquaintances/collegues who are native to your area fill out a two-page questionnaire, questions from DARE's questionnaire, I would appreciate it greatly. Please let me know and I'll send you the questionnaire and postage. (From my own children I know a couple of these terms have changed around here. I'm interested in seeing which ones, how much, where, etc. Results to be related in San Diego.) Thanks very much. Luanne v. S. Luanne von Schneidemesser, 608-263-2748 DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706 lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 20:10:44 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Common ground? A while ago I got an inquiry from the dept. of sociology and anthropology at an eastern university about the origins and meaning of: "common ground." Any information? Thanks - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Oct 1994 17:24:19 -0700 From: "Karen L. Adams" ATKLA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUACAD.BITNET Subject: Re: help wanted What are the target ages? I'm in the Phoenix, AZ area. Send me the information and I'd be glad to look at it. Karen L. Adams Arizona State Univ. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Oct 1994 to 3 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There is one message totalling 22 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. help wanted ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Oct 1994 13:05:15 EDT From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: help wanted Luanne, I'd be happy to have some of my students help out with the questionnaire. Please send me 35-40 copies. Regards, David R. Carlson Department of Humanities Springfield College 263 Alden St. Springfield MA 01109 Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Oct 1994 to 4 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There are 7 messages totalling 119 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Aunt Rhody (3) 2. help wanted (2) 3. replying to individuals (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 00:43:54 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Aunt Rhody Are any of you familiar with the variant line "Go tell Aunt Nancy" in the "Old Gray Goose" song? If so, have you detected evidence that this variant may be related to Anansi? If so, regionality is likely. Or other variants? Song books have "Aunt Rhody." Donald M. Lance, University of Missouri ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:33:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: help wanted Luanne, I have 300 (yes, 300) overnourished, hypoactive southern MI undergraduates (actually about 80% natives, I reckon). If the work is either short (in class) or can be assigned for out of class, I'll take it on. Best, Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 08:41:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Aunt Rhody I haver not heard Aunt Nancy for Rhody, but Don's query makes me wonder about the spelling of Rhoda. It is clearly meant to reflect the schwa-[i] alternation in Upland Southern (or whatever your favorite term is today) speech. I wonder if the spelling (i.e., dialect spelling) was always thuis, and, if so, if those unfamilair with the dialect it imitates fail to make the connection between the names Rhody and Rhoda. (Don't snort impossible; I've got lots of respondents who don't see an apt in inept, and there is an obvious majority of native speakers of English who find no sacred in sacrilegious, although they get sweaty-palmed when asked to cite examples of other words with the negative prefix sac-). Sorry to ramble, but it's still dark at 7:00 AM here in MI. Already! Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 13:50:59 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Aunt Rhody Are any of you familiar with the variant line "Go tell Aunt Nancy" in the "Old Gray Goose" song? If so, have you detected evidence that this variant may be related to Anansi? If so, regionality is likely. Or other variants? Song books have "Aunt Rhody. I've sung this as Nancy as long as I can remember. My wife remebers it when she was a child. We both grew up in Delaware, so the regional "Anansi" looks pretty doubtful. Re the sonbooks, John and Alan Lomax "Folk Song USA" has Nancy. Bo b Lancaster SUNY - English emeritus Hamilton, NY src6 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 14:10:26 -0500 From: 00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU Subject: Re: help wanted Luanne: I could also have some of my students (about 30 or 40) fill out your questionnaire. The school is in East-Central Indiana but the students tend to be from all over the state. Vera Horvath Ball State University Department of English Muncie, IN 47306 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 22:57:41 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: replying to individuals As a newcomer to the list (though I know some several of you on it!), I've been wondering. On other lists I'm on, it's customary to reply to individuals for some topics; here, messages addressed to individuals keep getting forwarded to the whole list (eg, about a dozen replies to Luanne v.m.'s request for assistance/informants . Is this customary? or are people just unaware of it? Unenlightened in DC ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Oct 1994 22:11:18 -0500 From: Frank Mark R mrf546t[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIC.SMSU.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals On Wed, 5 Oct 1994 PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET wrote: As a newcomer to the list (though I know some several of you on it!), I've been wondering. On other lists I'm on, it's customary to reply to individuals for some topics; here, messages addressed to individuals keep getting forwarded to the whole list (eg, about a dozen replies to Luanne v.m.'s request for assistance/informants . Is this customary? or are people just unaware of it? Unenlightened in DC I, for one, apologize for mis-posting. I realized after I sent off my reply that the whole list didn't need to see it and that I had needlessly wasted bandwidth. Consider this my final, penitent, public reply to a private inquiry. Thanks, Mark Frank ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Oct 1994 to 5 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There are 12 messages totalling 344 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. replying to individuals (5) 2. Don't care to (3) 3. Don't Care To (2) 4. No subject given 5. Positive "don't care to" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:02:48 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals I've been wondering. On other lists I'm on, it's customary to reply to individuals for some topics; here, messages addressed to individuals keep getting forwarded to the whole list (eg, about a dozen replies to Luanne v.m.'s request for assistance/informants . Is this customary? or are people just unaware of it? You must be on some unusual lists. This list seems fairly typical to me in that some people do reply to the individual (e.g., I replied to Luanne directly, as I'm sure many other people did) and some people reply to the whole list because they don't notice the 'reply-to' line in the headers and think they're replying to the individual, or they realize that this is a low-traffic list and that most of us don't mind seeing their replies, or they're too lazy to readdress. I, for one, apologize for mis-posting. I realized after I sent off my reply that the whole list didn't need to see it and that I had needlessly wasted bandwidth. Consider this my final, penitent, public reply to a So far, I haven't found anybody who could really explain how bandwidth can be wasted. I've become convinced that the concept of wasted bandwidth is a cybermyth. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:45:19 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals This and ARTHURNET are two very friendly lists. Those of you who have been on CHAUCERNET and MEDTEXTL, as I have been, know that some people on some lists are downright foul and nasty, telling students to go somewhere else to ask questions, telling fellow scholars to go to the library and do their own work, and telling everyone to go to hell for merely existing. No one here seems to mind questions about common knowledge, and the system itself does not send you an insulting list of frequently asked questions (FAQ's) the way a certain long-winded medieval English list does. No, the ADS is, unlike other professional organizations and groups, composed of self-actuated, friendly folks, trained to discuss theory and to discuss "funny words used around here for various things." Here's to one of the few professional societies with a sense of humanity and a sense of humor. NO NEED TO APOLOGIZE HERE. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 07:40:09 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals Replying to my own reply... So far, I haven't found anybody who could really explain how bandwidth can be wasted. I've become convinced that the concept of wasted bandwidth is a cybermyth. I didn't say that right. What I meant was that there's still plenty of bandwidth to go around and thus no need to worry about the waste. This does not, of course, address the question of subscribers' attitudes toward extra mail. I sometimes forget that, since I have all list mail filtered into separate files, keeping it from cluttering my regular mail space. As long as I'm cluttering, I might as well use this opportunity to remind y'all of a few LISTSERV basics. The 'reply-to' line is included in your headers, unless your particular system cuts off some of the headers. Lists can be set up to reply to either the whole list or the individual. I find that the latter arrangement tends to discourage list discussion (which is probably why not very many lists are set up that way). On ADS-L an ordinary reply command sends to the whole list in most cases. (I won't bore you with the details of the exceptions. You can tell if somebody is an exception by looking at the 'reply-to' command in the headers.) How to change your 'to' line in a reply depends upon your system. If you're using Unix, you enter the 'r' to reply and then enter '~h' to edit the 'to' line. Other odds'n'ends: To stop mail for a while (e.g., if you're going out of town), send this command to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu: set ads-l nomail When you want to start mail again, send this: set ads-l mail To unsubscribe, send this: unsub ads-l To receive a list of subscribers, send this: review ads-l To check your list settings, send this: query ads-l For more listserv commands, send this: help --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 08:39:56 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals Sorry for not changing the subject line. I am just beginning work on a dialectal form from mid-TN that creates problems because of its complete difference from presumably standard American usage: *don't care to*. For example, on a test I just graded, a student wrote the following: When she started a poem, she (Emily Dickinson) did not care to change subjects after the first line; as when she says, *Let me tell you about the sunrise...," then she changes to the passage of time. Has anyone else encountered this form around the southeast? Does anyone remember seeing it covered in any article or other work? I appreciate all input. Alan ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 10:12:52 -0400 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Don't care to I have noticed this around Athens, but it has made only a small impact and I have not cared to pay attention to it. I will now. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:01:54 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Don't Care To "Don't care to" has a sense or meaning in Eastern Kentucky that has driven me crazy. Last year I asked a student if he would do some typing for me, and he replied, "I don't care to." And I replied back that I needed him to do it today and inquired if he was going to do it. He said again, "I don't care to." I finally said something like, "Well, I don't care if you care to or not, do it anyway." I have sense realized that the use of the phrase in this region, probably reaching into Tennessee, has the meaning that the person will do something. The meaning, I guess, is that not caring to means a person has no objections (cares) to something and hence will do it. Sincerely, Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:59:40 -0400 From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET Subject: No subject given (Linux Smail3.1.28.1 #5) id m0qsvEq-0007WpC; Thu, 6 Oct 94 10:00 MDT Received: by cpu.us.dynix.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA95703; Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:36:58 -0600 Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 09:33:02 -700 (MDT) From: Warren Keith Russell wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com Subject: Re: replying to individuals To: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu In-Reply-To: m0qstiw-0007VnC[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]amlibs.com Message-Id: Pine.3.05.9410060958.C57716-b100000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote: I've been wondering. On other lists I'm on, it's customary to reply to individuals for some topics; here, messages addressed to individuals keep getting forwarded to the whole list (eg, about a dozen replies to Luanne v.m.'s request for assistance/informants . Is this customary? or are people just unaware of it? You must be on some unusual lists. This list seems fairly typical to me in that some people do reply to the individual (e.g., I replied to Luanne directly, as I'm sure many other people did) and some people reply to the whole list because they don't notice the 'reply-to' line in the headers and think they're replying to the individual, or they realize that this is a low-traffic list and that most of us don't mind seeing their replies, or they're too lazy to readdress. I have seen this "rule" most often implemented in Usenet newsgroups, where messages/articles are stored for a period of time on the server, and individual messages have a real tendency to clog things up. Once the original poster has had her question answered, she cannot simply delete the message, as she can with a mailing-list message. In Usenet group, private postings to the groups can generate an amazing number of flames. *********************************************************************** Keith Russell Personal Messages: KeithR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]infonaut.com wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com MagicSpelr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 11:13:00 CDT From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Don't Care To A good friend of mine, an Australian, often replies with "I don't care," to questions of the sort, "Would you like a cup of coffee?" "Shall I pick you up?" "Would you like me to give you a million dollars?" She means, "Yes, I'd like X" and this is a polite way to say so. She considers saying "Yes, I would like that," much closer to "gimme". Beth Simon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:34:56 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Don't care to Bill, I am of course cluttering up the list with a personal reply, but... If you care to pay attention, that means you don't want to. If you don't care to pay attention, that means you will. At least, if you speak a south midland dialect (which ain't upper south 'tall!) Sincerely, Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 13:47:09 -0400 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Don't care to On Thu, 6 Oct 1994, Terry Lynn Irons wrote: If you care to pay attention, that means you don't want to. If you don't care to pay attention, that means you will. At least, if you speak a south midland dialect (which ain't upper south 'tall!) This just goes to show that I have not been paying attention :) I either will or won't in future, accordingly. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 16:23:18 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: replying to individuals In Usenet group, private postings to the groups can generate an amazing number of flames. Usenet culture, except of course for the bit.listserv.* hierarchy, is quite different from mailing-list culture -- as you probably realize. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Oct 1994 20:57:16 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Positive "don't care to" Gosh, I thought everyone KNEW. Throughout Southern Appalachia, the phrase "don't care to" means (quite uniformly) either "don't mind" (neutral to positive) or "want to" (quite positive). When we talk about this pattern in my introductory linguistics courses, I can see the light dawn on the part of non-Sppalachian speakers. They drop their mouths and begin to say things like, "Oh, you mean that when my roommate last week said that he didn't care to go to the movies and was puzzled when we went on without him that he really meant ..." (Sorry--make that "Appalachian" above) My favorite story about the pattern involves Joe Trahern, head of the English Dept. at the U of TN for 10 years. He is from Middle Tennessee, but I thought he had been here long enough to know what the phrase means here. But, one day he needed a secretary to work overtime, something we try not to do. He walked into the secretarial pool and explained his plight, then asked whether anyone wanted to volunteer to work overtime. Donna looked up and said, "I don;t care to work late." Joe said, "Oh, that's perpefctly all right. We'll just get someone else." Donna: "But I really don't care to." Joe: "That's really all right. I'm sure someone else will be able to." After about the third response from Donna, Joe finally got the message that the phrase had a different meaning from the one he was familiar with and he got the situation straighened out. I remember vividly the first time I saw the phrase used in that sense in writing here (20 years ago). I taught the last Saturday class in the college of Liberal Arts. Because the campus police would not let my students park on the campus on football Saturdays, we didn't meet very many times (and we were still on the quarter system then). I had students keep journals ontheir reading ("Modern Grammar") and the first time I took them up and read them, I read the sentence, "I don't care to work hard, but ..." I remember being glad tat I knew the local meaning of that phrase, because that was the first time I had encountered it in that sense other than in a book about speech varieties (probably Vance Randolph's Gallery of Ozark Folk Speech first). I usually hear the phrase in the positive sense at least several times a day. Variants include "don't mind to". I also hear thins like, "If you don't care to," "If you don;t mind to, ..." ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Oct 1994 to 6 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There are 13 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. I don't care (to) 2. Name that syntagm (8) 3. -"had" Constructions (3) 4. Positive "don't care to" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:08:36 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: I don't care (to) This mentioning "I don't care to" in sense of "I'm willing to" reminds me of my painful experience with "I don't care" as a child in Maryland. A pedantic adult would ask me a yes/no question, and if my answer was yes, I'd probably have said "I don't care," until disapproval must have seared the usage from my youthful lexicon. This "I don't care to" sure sounds similar. ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 18:35:56 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Name that syntagm Okay, do the perfessional linguists (what's a "linguist"? That's another list) have a technical term for phenomena like "I don't care (to)"? One big problem I've had with my Taiwanese students has been when they offer to do something for me, and I say, "That's okay." My meaning: "No thank you, I don't want to put you to any trouble." Non-native speaker's (literal) interpretaion: "I accept your offer." Cf. could care less -- couldn't care less Got a name for it? ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 08:05:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Name that syntagm The term you are looking for (or at least one of them), when the compositional semantics does not add up to the pragmatic meaning (or illocutionary force) is indirect speech act. When one finds these (and even direct speech acts and other matters misinterpreted cross-linguistically, the generally agreed upon area of study appears to be interlanguage pragmatics. This ought to convince people that there are linguists out there. At least we have a code. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:56:10 EDT From: Bruce Southard ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1.BITNET Subject: -"had" Constructions One of my colleagues asked me about the function of "stolen" in the following phrase: "She had her purse stolen last night." I analyzed the function as that of objective complement, but then started thinking about similar constructions: 1. I had my house painted last year. 2. The secret police had the politician jailed until last week. It seems to me that these sentences differ in terms of causality or "agent" relationships, but I'm unable to pinpoint the reason for the differences in meaning/relationships. Does anyone have an explanation? Bruce Southard English Department East Carolina University ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1 ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu 919-757-6041 919-757-4889 (FAX) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:27:43 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Okay, do the perfessional linguists (what's a "linguist"? That's another list) have a technical term for phenomena like "I don't care (to)"? One big problem I've had with my Taiwanese students has been when they offer to do something for me, and I say, "That's okay." My meaning: "No thank you, I don't want to put you to any trouble." Non-native speaker's (literal) interpretaion: "I accept your offer." Cf. could care less -- couldn't care less Got a name for it? ---Wab. I've been looking for some time for a suitable name for words (or expressions) that mean both themselves and their opposites (literally, ravel, let, oversight -- see "A Literal Paradox" in _Declining Grammar_ [Urbana: NCTE 1989], pp.. 73-80). I've never encountered positive "I don't care to" until this discussion, but now I'm sure I'll notice it a lot (I still remember hearing my first might could about a week after I learned about double modals years ago). Anyway, if you can name that syntagm, maybe ADS will give you a prize at the annual new words meeting (are you listening, Alan?). Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 09:27:48 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm The term you are looking for (or at least one of them), when the compositional semantics does not add up to the pragmatic meaning (or illocutionary force) is indirect speech act. When one finds these (and even direct speech acts and other matters misinterpreted cross-linguistically, the generally agreed upon area of study appears to be interlanguage pragmatics. This ought to convince people that there are linguists out there. At least we have a code. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Well, other Dennis, I don't think indirect speech act is narrow enough for this particular phenomenon. True, it is that, but it is also more. At least we have a code. But has anybody got the secret decoder ring? (the real) Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 10:17:16 -0400 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Bruce Southard wrote: [A.] "She had her purse stolen last night." I analyzed the function as that of objective complement, but then started thinking about similar constructions: 1. I had my house painted last year. 2. The secret police had the politician jailed until last week. I think these are essentially parallel in structure, with `have' used as a factitive verb. The "causation" that we see in (1) and (2) is a "semantic" feature added to the grammatical relationship invoked by use of `have' as a factitive. I.e., in (1), we see that `house' and `painted' are set into a linking relationship by the factitive verb; in a separate clause the linking would be invoked by a form of `to be' as "house was painted". The same is true in the target sentence [A]: `purse' and `stolen' have been set in a linking relationship by the factitive verb. The only difference between [A] and (1) or (2) is the semantic role of the grammatical subject of the sentence; in [A] there is no causal role toward the factitive relationship, while in (1) and (2) there is. One might say that when `have' is used as a factitive verb, it may or may not semantically include causality; other factitive verbs are sematically more explicitly causal, like `elect' or `make'. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 08:20:58 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Positive "don't care to" This discussion is fascinating. How did I manage to live in Chattanooga for six years without EVER encountering "don't care to" in this meaning? Is Chattanooga some kind of island, or was I just unobservant? Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:45:05 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions Wm. Labov talked about this with "got" instead of "have." He contrasted "He got arrested" ("He was arrested")with "He got arrested to test the ordinance" ("He had himself arrested) somewhere. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:17:20 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm I agree with Dennis B. that Dennis P.'s suggestion of 'indirect speech act' for this particular quirk of 'don't care to' is too narrow. (It may also be too broad, if I read the original query rightly.) But there is a term in the non-academic literature that we might draw upon for these Janus-like entries. John Train (author of Preserving Capital and Making It Grow, The Money Masters, and--in a more relevant vein--Remarkable Names) has been referring to these items (since his 1985 book "Remarkable Words") as ANTILOGIES. He portrays himself as the coiner of the term, although the concept has been around at least since Freud's 1910 curious essay on "The Antithetical Meaning of Primal Words". Classic examples from Train's material include cleave 'stick together'/'hack apart' could care less let 'permit'/'hinder' (let ball, let or hindrance) table [as verb] 'bring up for discussion'/'defer discussing' overlook 'watch over'/'ignore' sanction 'permit'/'ban' enjoin 'force'/'forbid' bomb [theatrical] 'success' [U.K.]/'disaster' [U.S.] temper 'harden' (steel)/'soften' (justice with mercy) moot '(no longer) under consideration' Many examples on closer inspection turn out to involve irony or sarcasm (as in 'could care less')--terrific, Fr. un malheur, sacre'--and quite a number involve lack of specificity about what would now be called thematic relations: rent (from vs. to), Fr. apprendre, dust (crops vs. shelves), string (beans vs. beads). In fact, I've written about these last batch in a paper a few years back; they are fun to think about. Related participials that allow source vs. goal readings are legion: horned, pitted, boned. Some of these are also featured in the literature on puns, not least the Amelia Bedelia series for kids (remember her version of trimming the steak or dusting the furniture?). One of the ones that always puzzles me is "It's all downhill from here": does it get easier (and thus better), or worse? There's also a nice paper by Charles Li many years back on a Chinese expression (cha-yidiar, plus various diacritics, if I remember correctly) which glosses literally as 'miss-a-little' and means either 'just barely' or 'not quite'. And even in English we talk about the 'near miss' of two airliners, as well as missing not being somewhere. Anyway, 'antilogy' seems to be as good a term as any. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 13:50:51 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Am I the only linguist in the country who believes that "could care less" is merely a (highly predictble) phonological reduction of "could not care less" and not necessarily a pattern involving sarcasm,et.c? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 19:28:32 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote: Am I the only linguist in the country who believes that "could care less" is merely a (highly predictble) phonological reduction of "could not care less" and not necessarily a pattern involving sarcasm,et.c? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu No, you're not. I believe! Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 7 Oct 1994 20:56:53 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Mark Frank has asked me for my "evidence" that "could care less" is the natural (and highly predictable) result of the phonological reduction of "could not care less." Briefly, when "could not care less" is contracted (as statements containing negatives usually are in informal speech), it ends up with a /dntk/ internal sequence. I suspet that consonant cluster reduction gets rid of the /t/ and reduces the /n/ to nasalization of the preceding vowel. There's another factor, I think. Americans in general are uptight about double negatives, and I think that "less" is perceived as a kind of negative, which makes it appropriate to get rid of the "not" or "n't." Finally, I simply do not hear sarcasm or irony in the voices of those who say "could care less." Tim Frazier wrote to say that he is a believer,also. What is your analysis, Tim? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Oct 1994 to 7 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There are 4 messages totalling 108 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Name that syntagm (2) 2. Positive "don't care to" 3. Phila. dialect ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 12:40:31 RSA From: lynne 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Name that syntagm I've been looking for some time for a suitable name for words (or expressions) that mean both themselves and their opposites (literally, ravel, let, oversight -- see "A Literal Paradox" in _Declining Grammar_ [Urbana: NCTE 1989], pp.. 73-80). I've never encountered positive "I don't care to" until this discussion, but now I'm sure I'll notice it a lot (I still remember hearing my first might could about a week after I learned about double modals years ago). Anyway, if you can name that syntagm, maybe ADS will give you a prize at the annual new words meeting (are you listening, Alan?). Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu i don't think this is what you're looking for, dennis, but there is the term "Janus word" for a single term that expresses opposite concepts. e.g., "temper" can mean 'to harden' or 'to soften'. however, i don't think the overuse of 'literally' qualifies it for this title. lynne murphy university of the witwatersrand ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 13:03:59 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote: Mark Frank has asked me for my "evidence" that "could care less" is the natural (and highly predictable) result of the phonological reduction of "could not care less." Briefly, when "could not care less" is contracted (as statements containing negatives usually are in informal speech), it ends up with a /dntk/ internal sequence. I suspet that consonant cluster reduction gets rid of the /t/ and reduces the /n/ to nasalization of the preceding vowel. There's another factor, I think. Americans in general are uptight about double negatives, and I think that "less" is perceived as a kind of negative, which makes it appropriate to get rid of the "not" or "n't." Finally, I simply do not hear sarcasm or irony in the voices of those who say "could care less." Tim Frazier wrote to say that he is a believer,also. What is your analysis, Tim? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu I think Bethany's hypothesis about consonant cluster reduction is very convincing. About sarcasm: I first heard this expression 34 years ago and have run into it frequently since. I have never heard it in a frame where it would work to read the remark as sarcasm. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 15:38:57 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: Positive "don't care to" My first year in Cookeville, I started to have a house built using a carpenter rather than a contractor. He simply told me who to contact when he was ready for that aspect of work. When it came time to have someone build the fireplace, I contacted the person he suggested, who, after getting my name and the name of my carpenter, said that he didn't care to. So, I, new to the area and this wonderful loqution, asked another mason. Needless to say, both were thrilled when they showed up on the appointed day. Maybe Chattanooga is outside the area of positive "don't care to." I know it's alive and well through most of upper middle Tennessee. Alan Slotkin ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Oct 1994 21:05:40 -0400 From: Claudio Salvucci CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM Subject: Phila. dialect I was wondering if anyone on the list could help me find material (by that I mean books, journals, articles, etc.) on dialect speech in the Delaware Valley / SE Pennsylvania area, especially urban Philadelphia. Linguistics is more a hobby than a profession, and as such I am completely in the dark about where to look, and what research has been done in this area. I have consulted "The Pronunciation of English in the Atlantic States", but the examples of "typically Philadelphian" speech don't correlate with my own personal experience of growing up there. Perhaps the time frame (data collected around 1940) and the social context (educated, "well-to-do") have something to do with this. I remember learning about vowel-raising in college, but never learned where this data came from. Any information would be greatly appreciated, as the only treatments I have been able to find come from the popular press, and as such, are of limited value. Thanks in advance and I apologize for the length of this posting. Claudio R. Salvucci csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1994 to 8 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There is one message totalling 15 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Phila. dialect ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 06:59:26 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Phila. dialect William Labov and his colleagues have done a lot of work on PHiladelphia speech. I know there's a paper on Phil. in the collection of papers published as "Locating Language in Space and Time" from Academic Press. (or is it "time and space"") But that's 1980; there must be more recent work that someone on the list can cite. I'd like to heear about it too. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Oct 1994 to 9 Oct 1994 ********************************************** There are 4 messages totalling 110 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Phila. dialect 2. Language and Education (2) 3. Antilogies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 08:31:46 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Phila. dialect As a poor soul who used to ride into Philadelphia for several years by taking the bus from West Whester and then the el from 69th street (one can watch the Pepsi bottles fly off the roofs of bombed out houses toward the metal band on the el car), I can tell you that the dialect situation in Philadelphia is extremely complex. Neighborhoods are important since they are tied directly in many cases to ethnicity and social/economic status. I learned this summer just how similar West Philadephia speech out by the GE plant is to Dublin English. Accent also changes as one takes the train out the mainline to Paoli and beyond. By the time you're out in West Chester, you're out in a different world. Folks out there sound like upper Chesapeake folks--depending on many things, of course. But these are all uninformed impressions. By the way, Sledd (if I may take his name in vain) was mercilessly cruel in class on atlas treatment of cities like Philadelphia. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:30:00 GMT From: J.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK Subject: Language and Education My colleagues and I are currentlydesigning a new MA module entitled: Language and Education: Policy and Issues To help us along, I wonder whether anyone on the net - or your colleagues - teach on anything at all similar, and whether you could let us have sight of your syllabuses and reading lists. Email or fax (+44) 232 314615 would be fine. It's a new departure for us, and we'd certainly be interested to see how it's done elsewhere. Any help any of us can give us will certainly be appreciated! With many thanks, JOHN KIRK School of English The Queen's University of Belfast Email: eng0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qub.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 11:33:47 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Language and Education Try Donald Larmouth at U of Wisconsin, Green Bay (or see his article in Glowka and Lance, _Language Variation etc._, MLA, 1993: 219 ff.). Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Oct 1994 15:57:21 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Antilogies RE: I don't care to ("I don't mind") Isadore of Seville might've called this antiphrasis. His neatest example is "Canis a non canendo," a dog is called CANIS because it can't sing (CANERE). Cf. other Isodorean possibilities: Literally: I literally busted a gut laughing (because it was really only figuratively). Rush-hour traffic: Because nobody can rush anywhere. Humane Society: Because they could care less about humans. They could care less: Because they couldn't. That's okay: Because it's not okay. Antilogies: Borrow me your book (= loan); What are you inferring (= implying)? Polarity switching: There was no love lost between us. (We loved each other completely -- We loathed each other.) I am willing to work more, if not thrilled at the prospect. (I am thrilled ~ I am not thrilled) You lucked out. (You're out of luck -- You're lucky.) Bad means good. War means peace. If a woman says no... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Oct 1994 to 10 Oct 1994 *********************************************** There are 9 messages totalling 225 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Name that syntagm (4) 2. Aunt Rhody (2) 3. -"had" Constructions (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 02:32:37 -0400 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Hey, I thought dialects collapsed with the fall of marxism. If I can join this tenacious bunch, hesitate and sign me up! Is this ADS the more virulent contagious strain? -AOBD (as obi one can know me) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 02:35:55 -0400 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Thanks, Larry (via brad grissom). -AOBD (hesitate and call) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Oct 1994 14:18:56 -0400 From: BHOWARD BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: Aunt Rhody Donald, it was "Aunt Nancy" in Lewisburg, West Virginia, in the 1950's when my grandmother (whose father immigrated from Wales) sang it to me. Becky Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 04:36:07 -0700 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Relevant true story: At a major international conference, a pompous speaker droned on and on to a packed crowd. After what seemed an eternity, he finally built to his point, declaring: "In English, for example, there is not a single example of a double positive which means its negative." At this point, the noted Princeton philosopher, Saul Kripke, rose from his seat near the back of the audience and shouted; "SURE, SURE!" The speaker has not been seen much since. -- Jim Beniger University of Southern California ******* On Fri, 7 Oct 1994, Dennis.Preston wrote: The term you are looking for (or at least one of them), when the compositional semantics does not add up to the pragmatic meaning (or illocutionary force) is indirect speech act. When one finds these (and even direct speech acts and other matters misinterpreted cross-linguistically, the generally agreed upon area of study appears to be interlanguage pragmatics. This ought to convince people that there are linguists out there. At least we have a code. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 09:01:35 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Name that syntagm I don't know if the story is apocryphal, but I've always heard it cited (including every time I have talked about "logical" double negation before an audience containing philosophers) along the following lines: [Speaker] "...and while two negations often cancel out to an affirmative, there is no known attestation of two affirmatives reducing to a negative." [Sidney Morgenbesser, in a loud sotto voce] "Yeah, yeah." I've come across the same anecdote a few times in print since including it in my 1989 book "A Natural History of Negation" (p. 554) and in my 1991 CLS paper "Duplex Negatio Affirmat...: The Economy of Double Negation" (plug, plug) and each time the attribution was to Morgenbesser. From what I've heard of Morgenbesser, master of the rapier-like counterexample through many decades at Columbia, and what I know of Kripke, the standard version of the anecdote appears more likely. But was I dere, Charley? No. Larry Horn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 13:40:31 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions There is more to the "'had' Constructions" than has been discussed so far. Bruce Southard started the discussion by citing these examples: (1) She had her purse stolen last night (2) I had my house painted last year (3) The secret police had the politician jailed until last week (1) and (3) are ambiguous sequences: (1a) She had her purse stolen last night, and she misses it (1b) She had her purse stolen last night, so that she could see if there is a pattern in residential burglaries in River City (1b) is hard to set up in the second reading because of the time adverb. Cf: (1c) I had a purse stolen, and I sure do miss the money (1d) I had a purse stolen, and thankfully the thief didn't finger me (1e) I had a purse stolen, but I got cold feet and put it back on the shelf The painted house sequence can also be structurally ambiguous: (2a) We had our house painted blue for several years, and then we had the house and garage painted gray and like it a lot better Likewise the jailed politicians: (3a) The police had the politicians jailed until last week, so that the military could pull off a coup (3b) The police had the politicians jailed until last week, but somehow they got out and spoiled the coup attempt So it appears that we need more than the two labels that Bill Kretzschmar discussed (if you buy his 'factitive' argument, which I really haven't thought through to accept or reject). While you're pondering 'have + dir obj + past participle qua complement', you might add 'have + dir obj + infinitive': (4) I was real busy and then I HAD THREE CALLS COME IN and then I was really behind (The first example that occurred to me was "I had my pants fall down on me" but looked for other examples, even though this one has a very interesting "dative of interest" in it.) This sequence is also structurally ambiguous: (4a) I had three calls come in and couldn't finish what I was doing (4b) I had three calls come in so that the boss would be impressed Some might quibble over whether 'dir obj' is the right term for these NPs, but that quibble is part of bigger questions. And 'present participle qua complement': (5a) We had three copters circling overhead to make the scene more graphic (5b) We had three copters circling overhead and couldn't hear well I have a faint echo in my mind that says Nelson Francis or Charles Hockett or some other linguist from that era discussed this ambiguity. Maybe Fries. Or Sledd. Or A. A. Hill. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 14:19:32 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Aunt Rhody I've had only three responses to my 'Aunt Rhody' query. More interesting topics intervened. No problem. This isn't a big item. By the way (i.e., BTW), I don't mind seeing short responses to requests for info/help; that tells me where there are linguists/dialectologists who are interested in particular topics and who they are. So I don't see my colleagues' postings as intrusions, not on this list. Dennis Preston posted a query about Rhody/Rhoda. According to THE GUINNESS BOOK OF NAMES, 6th ed (1993), 'Rhoda' is listed (p. 41) under "Some biblical first names for girls": Rhoda -- Greek 'rose' In the section titled "First name profiles" the following statistics are cited for the incidence of the name per 10,000 girls born in the year indicated. The statistics are for births in England and Wales (p. 72) 1900 16, 1925 8, 1935 4, 1950 2, 1955 2, 1970 4, 1980 2, 1990 1 The name Rhona is listed among "Some Scottish first names for girls": Rhona -- Scottish place name 'rough isle' Rhona came into general use, so says Guinness, in England and Wales in 1870, with the following frequencies of use: 1935 2, 1935 4, 1950 6, 1955 8, 1965 4, 1980 2 I added Rhona because of the folk uses of "Rhony" as well as "Rhody". You may wonder about Rhonda (different vowel sound). Guinness doesn't list an etymological source for it, but it was the 44th most popular girl's name in the USA in 1970 (p. 53). It came into general use in England and Wales in 1927, with the following frequencies reported (p. 72): 1950 5, 1955 2, 1960 6, 1965 2, 1975 2 The name was not in the top 50 names in the USA in years other than 1970. More'n you ever wanted to know, but here it is. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 18:51:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions I agree with Don Lance that the [on me] phrase in {I had my pants fall down on me} is interesting. I sense a tonal requirment in all these on+pronoun constructions - namely, it must be something not wanted, preferred, liked, etc... I would prefer calling them malefactives rather than datives of interest, but I do not want to be a category mongerer. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 19:45:23 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions Isn't there an Irish construction along the lines of "he had a drink taken". As I understand it, it's a faintly euphemistic way of suggesting that the subject has taken many drinks. ("He claimed he swerved to avoid the cat, but he had a drink taken if you ask me.") In this sense it reminds me a bit of what a Peruvian friend said about Spanish -- that lots of things seem to happen by themselves in that language ('the vase broke itself'). The 'had O part.' construction relieves the subject of onus. It's trying to shuffle the action into the "I had my car sideswiped" category, where the subject is victim. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 1994 to 11 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 265 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Antilogies (2) 2. Name that syntagm (2) 3. Phila. dialect 4. -"had" Constructions (4) 5. Source of Kripke Story 6. Fiddling in Appalachia ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 00:13:47 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Antilogies I'm not sure I buy all of Wab's cases of polarity switches, though that's what I first thought of before Larry Horn suggested "antilogy" (which seems wonderful but maybe best only on the lexical level?) "No love lost" I've always understood to come from "no love there to lose in the first place", and it also seems to me to have that dry sarcastic tone that the others don't. "If not" is something I've been puzzling over for a long time, and would like to know if it's been written up anywhere. But I think it's only a written phenomenon, since there are two very distinct intonation contours that disambiguate meanings in conversation: "X, if not Y" "X," pause, lower pitch, "if not Y," with a trailing low pitch on "Y" Means "but not Y" Ex: "It was bad, if not terrible", when it wasn't terrible. "X, if not Y" "X", no or very brief pause, "if not Y" with as-high or even-higher pitch and contrastive stress on "Y". "X" is often aggravated or intensified, and "Y" is even more so and in the same direction. Means "X, indeed, Y". Ex: "It was (downright) silly, if not absurd" But I've also tried in vain to get non-linguists to hear the ambiguity and the intonation patterns, so maybe mine are idiosyncratic or dialectal. Also, I wonder if there's a polarity-like phenomenon of a change spreading in one direction: polarity changes spread towards the positive, which is semantic bleaching, don't they? So is the 2nd reading winning out? or are they too functionally distinct for that to apply? Whoops! my maiden (substantive, after that individual-reply fiasco) speech was a bit long... --peter patrick georgetown u. lx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 00:25:52 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Name that syntagm James Beniger's "Sure, Sure" story reminds me (but alas only partially) of a joke my father used to tell. Unfortunately this is typical of his humor! Some similarly pompous or confident fellow is proclaiming that "there are only 3 words in the English language which begin S-U- but are pronounced 'shu-': SUGAR, SUMAC and [?]". His listener then asks, "Are you sure?" The problem is I can't remember the 3rd one, or find one in a dictionary, excepot variants of "sure". Does anyone know...? --plp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 00:48:43 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Phila. dialect As other folks pointed out re: Philly dialect studies, Labov and a whole list of collaborators have written a whole slew of stuff. But a starting point (for white, as opposed to black, Philly vernacular) would be "The Exact description of the speech community", which painstakingly describes the precise phonetic conditioning of the /ae/ to /aeh/ split. But it also briefly notes and reviews other Philly studies, from the 1940s on, including Ferguson, Cofer etc. Unfortunately I don't know where it's published, I only have a mid-80s manuscript. Anybody know the proper ref? "Three Dialects of English" also has some Philly stuff (pub. I think in Penny Eckert's edited NWAVE volume, 1992?)... --plp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 21:59:46 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions On Tue, 11 Oct 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote: Isn't there an Irish construction along the lines of "he had a drink taken". As I understand it, it's a faintly euphemistic way of suggesting that the subject has taken many drinks. ("He claimed he swerved to avoid the cat, but he had a drink taken if you ask me.") In this sense it reminds me a bit of what a Peruvian friend said about Spanish -- that lots of things seem to happen by themselves in that language ('the vase broke itself'). The 'had O part.' construction relieves the subject of onus. It's trying to shuffle the action into the "I had my car sideswiped" category, where the subject is victim. My Sanskrit teacher pointed out to us that in Sanskrit, the active and the passive have the same status - both derived from the verbal root, and neither derived from the other. Thus they have even passives for intransitives: "It is gone by me" as a way of saying "I go." Maybe these bureaucratic passives, and the "had" constructions, date back to this layer in *IndoEuropean? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 02:01:37 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions My use of "dative of interest" reflected a conversation a colleague and I had of "I had my pants fall down on me" back in 1968-69. He suggested the term as one that might include not only the "malefactives" as Dennis Preston called them but others that I can't now recall. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 02:07:30 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions Se me ocurrio' cuando lei' el mensaje de Judith Rascoe that any language oughta give the speaker syntactic escape hatches for deflecting blame--any self-respecting language, that is. It has occurred itself to me also that, caramba!, Chinese does something "funny" with the equivalent of 'occur' because I've seen "was occurred" in the writing of Chinese students. A couple of times I asked if the Chinese equivalent of 'occur' was sort of like a passive; the response was affirmative. On a comparative/contrastive note, the discussed of these 'have' constructions reminds me that 'be' and 'have'='own' use the same word in, I think, Swahili, with sort of a dative construction in the latter use. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 04:58:55 -0700 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: Source of Kripke Story My source for the Kripke story was a New York Times Magazine cover story on him roughly 10 years ago. Because the article was based on interviews with an impressive number of scholars from several countries, including Kripke, I tend to believe that the story is not (entirely) apocryphal. But I wasn't there, either. -- Jim Beniger ******* On Tue, 11 Oct 1994, Larry Horn wrote: I don't know if the story is apocryphal, but I've always heard it cited (including every time I have talked about "logical" double negation before an audience containing philosophers) along the following lines: [Speaker] "...and while two negations often cancel out to an affirmative, there is no known attestation of two affirmatives reducing to a negative." [Sidney Morgenbesser, in a loud sotto voce] "Yeah, yeah." I've come across the same anecdote a few times in print since including it in my 1989 book "A Natural History of Negation" (p. 554) and in my 1991 CLS paper "Duplex Negatio Affirmat...: The Economy of Double Negation" (plug, plug) and each time the attribution was to Morgenbesser. From what I've heard of Morgenbesser, master of the rapier-like counterexample through many decades at Columbia, and what I know of Kripke, the standard version of the anecdote appears more likely. But was I dere, Charley? No. Larry Horn ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 08:15:26 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Fiddling in Appalachia Forwarded from hel-l (history of the English language): Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 15:29:22 -0400 Sender: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu From: Allan Robb Allan_Robb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Appala. Dialects and the Fiddle One of my collegues has a master's student who wants to write a chapter in his American Studies thesis attempting to match up Appalachian dialects with styles of fiddling. This is outside my area of interest, and any help would be greatly appreciated. What is needed, I think, is a series of detailed descriptions of Appalachian dialects and subdialects, and some detailed dialect maps. Older materials would be especially welcome. Reply privately, and I will summerize for the net if there is any general interest. Cheers, Allan Robb Baylor University Dept. of English Allan_Robb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Baylor.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 09:17:16 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: -"had" Constructions In Message Wed, 12 Oct 1994 02:07:30 CDT, "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: On a comparative/contrastive note, the discussed of these 'have' constructions reminds me that 'be' and 'have'='own' use the same word in, I think, Swahili, with sort of a dative construction in the latter use. In Lingala and Kikongo-Kituba, two languages I speak, the closest analog is combining the verb COME with the applicative suffix. The latter is used for benefactive as well as malefactive constructions. In cases more specific than 'occur', diverse verb bases may combine with the applicative. For instance, a car owner may complain that his/her child ruined their car 'on them'(?), or that a wreckless driver killed a pedestrian 'on them'(?), etc. These are kinds of statements where the speaker suggests that somebody other than the agent is victimized by the agent's action. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 10:14:47 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Name that syntagm Sugar, sumac and pressure? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Oct 1994 15:10:12 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Antilogies In response to Peter Patrick's query on the two 'if not' constructions: I don't want to be accused of excessive autocitation, but the first systematic exploration I know of is mine, in my thesis (On the Semantic Properties of Logical Operators in English, UCLA, 1972, IULC version distrib. 1976), in section 1.22. Other more recent treatments are those in W. Welte, Negationslinguistik (Munich, 1978), p. 205 and my negation book, A Natural History of Negation (Chicago, 1989), p. 393. A sample minimal pair is The book is excellent if not (exactly) perfect [fall-rise intonation, concessive reading, corresp. to German 'wenn (auch) nicht...'] The book is excellent if not (downright) perfect [straight fall intonation, suspension (i.e. presupposition/implicature suspension) reading, corresp. to German 'wenn nicht (sogar)...'] As discussed in Horn 1989, only the former reading is preserved when the negation is incorporated (The book is excellent if imperfect); this correlates with the fact that the concessive reading can be taken as 'X if [not Y]' and the suspension [='and maybe even...'] reading as 'X [if not] Y'. Other minimal pairs: Our victory is possible if not probable. (ambiguous pending resolution by intonation contour) Our victory is possible if improbably (unambiguous; concessive only) --Larry Horn ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Oct 1994 to 12 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 43 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. HAVE constructions 2. The two [if not]s: one more reference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 16:18:28 -0400 From: Ronald Butters amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU Subject: HAVE constructions See "Existential and Causative HAVE . . . TO," AMERICAN SPEECH 61.2 (1986), 184-90. See also Lauri Karttunen, "On the Semantics of Complement Sentences," PAPERS FROM THE SIXTH REGIONAL MEETING, CHICAGO LINGUISTIC SOCIETY, 328-39. The AMERICAN SPEECH article points out that there is regional dialect variation between HAVE and HAVE TO (as in, say, "I`ll have these players (to) play something like the murder of my father before my uncle") as well as the fact that there are both EXISTENTIAL and CAUSATIVE senses. Actually, as Karttunen points out, there is also a third sense--termed POSSESSIVE--as in "They had the money to buy the sofa." I think that Ivan Sag has also done some work on the syntax/semantics of the construction(s), but I have only a handout from a paper that he gave in 1973 at the LSA Summer Meeting in Ann Arbor; Sag uses the term HAPPENSTANCE HAVE rather than EXISTENTIAL HAVE. I missed Bruce Southard`s original query on this topic, and so I apologize if I have repeated any of his wisdom (or anyone else`s) here. I think that Quirk et al. (COMPREHENSIVE GRAMMAR) also talk about these various senses of HAVE; I know that Poutsma does. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 16:30:36 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: The two [if not]s: one more reference I knew there was something else I was going to add to yesterday's note, but it I would like to suggest that for "traditional grammar" of the late 19th / early 20 century you might like to have a look at _Two grammatical models of Modern English: the old and the new from A to Z_, published in 1993 in paperback by Routledge (with some fairly useful took a Linguist posting by the author on a totally different subject to remind me of the reference. It's Fritz Stuurman's book "Two Grammatical Models of Modern English: The old and the new from A to Z", Routledge 1993, whose "I" entry (yes, it really does go from A to Z) is for if-not. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Oct 1994 to 13 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The two [if not]s: one more reference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 00:03:03 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: The two [if not]s: one more reference Sorry about that last message I sent about Stuurmann and 'if not'. I guess I must have collaborated with a quirky editing system in putting it together, although it strikes me as having been written by some sort of random amalgamation process. Oh well; I hope it can be understood even if it can't be parsed. LH ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Oct 1994 to 14 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 68 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. CILCA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Oct 1994 17:29:15 -0400 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: CILCA AVISO IMPORTANTE TERCER CONGRESO INTERNACIONAL DE LITERATURA CENTROAMERICANA C.I.L.C.A. '95 Ciudad de Guatemala: 22-24 de febrero de 1995 Mande resenas (una pagina) y propuestas para sesiones especiales antes del 15 de noviembre de 1994 a: Send abstracts (one page) and proposals for special sessions by Nov. 15,1994 to: Jorge Roman-Lagunas Conference Director Foreign Languages & Literatures Purdue University Calumet Hammond, IN 46323-2094 Telephone: (219)989-2632 Fax: (219)989-2581 E-mail: in%"romanlj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pucal.bitnet" Congreso organizado por la Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala y Purdue University Calumet La conferencia se especializa en literatura de Centroamerica pero ahora estamos haciendo una llamada especial a los linguistas interesados en presentar un tema relacionado con algun estudio linguistico sobre Centroamerica. The Conference is prncipally interested in research on Central American literature but is making a special call to linguists for research on Central American linguistics. Mande abstractos sobre estudios de literatura centroamericana al: Profesor Roman Lagunas Mande abstractos de linguistica al: Profesor Rey Send abstracts on studies of Central American Literature to: Professor Roman-Lagunas Send linguistics abstracts to: Profesor Rey Fecha limite para los abstractos es el 1 de diciembre de 1994. Deadline for abstracts is Dec. 1, 1994. Inscripcion/Registration: Profesores- $95(antes/before 15-nov-94) $125(despues/after 16-nov-94) Estudiantes- $65(antes/before 15-nov-94) $85(despues/after 16-nov-94) Favor de enviar cheque o giro postal a nombre de "CILCA" a: Jorge Roman-Lagunas a la direccion indicada anteriormente. Alberto Rey Department of Modern Languages & Literatures Howard University Washington,D.C. 20059 Phone: (202)806-6758 Fax: (202)806-4562 E-mail: alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cldc.howard.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Oct 1994 to 16 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 378 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. offending idioms (6) 2. GURT 1995 (long posting) 3. Watch your s-mail (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:16:09 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: offending idioms I am preparing a lecture on cultural sensitivity and language and wonder if anyone can help me think of examples of idioms that are insensitive to ethnic origin, religion, race, gender, etc. I've thought of a few - Indian giver, Jewed him down, More bang for the buck. Anyone think of any more - or suggest where I might find some? Thanks for any suggestions. Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 10:16:58 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms I am preparing a lecture on cultural sensitivity and language and wonder if anyone can help me think of examples of idioms that are insensitive to ethnic origin, religion, race, gender, etc. I've thought of a few - Indian giver, Jewed him down, More bang for the buck. Anyone think of any more - or suggest where I might find some? Thanks for any suggestions. Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu Chinese fire drill. Texas-leaguer. Welch on a bet. Welsh rabbit. Gyp.Dutch courage. To go dutch. Jesuitical. Pontificate. There are millions of 'em. I like to add campus ones if possible. Like dorm (to which residence hall or student life center people strongly object) Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 11:59:39 -0400 From: GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: GURT 1995 (long posting) *************************************************************** Preliminary Conference Announcement - GURT 1995 GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY ROUND TABLE ON LANGUAGES AND LINGUISTICS 1995 Conference and Pre-sessions: March 6 - 11, 1995 "Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers: Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic and Sociolinguistic Aspects" Chaired by James E. Alatis, Dean Emeritus Distinguished Professor of Linguistics and Modern Greek School of Languages and Linguistics Georgetown University, Washington, DC ***************************************************************** SPEAKERS: Main Sessions: March 8 - 11, 1995 David Andrews, Georgetown University Cathy Ball, Georgetown University Leslie M. Beebe, Teachers College, Columbia University Gillian Brown, Cambridge University Isolda Carranza, Georgetown University Marianne Celce-Murcia, University of California, Los Angeles Anna Uhl Chamot, Georgetown University Kenneth Chastain, University of Virginia Virginia Collier, George Mason University Jeff Connor-Linton, Georgetown University Barbara A. Craig, Georgetown University JoAnn Crandall, University of Maryland Baltimore County Bessie Dendrinos, University of Athens, Greece Nadine O'Connor DiVito, The University of Chicago Madeline E. Ehrman, U.S. Department of State, FSI Mary El-Khadi, Old Dominion University Aviva Freedman, Carleton University, Ottawa Eugene Garcia, Office of Bilingual Education and Minority Affairs William C. Hannas, Georgetown University Elaine K. Horwitz, University of Texas at Austin Kurt R. Jankowsky, Georgetown University Adam Jaworski, University of Wales Cardiff Christina Kakava, Mary Washington College Steve Krashen, University of Southern California Donna Lardiere, Georgetown University Diane Larsen-Freeman, School for International Training Ronald Leow, Georgetown University Don Loritz, Georgetown University Steve Loughrin-Sacco, Boise State University Joan Morley, University of Michigan David Nunan, The University of Hong Kong Linju Ogasawara, Japanese Ministry of Education (ret.) Anne Pakir, National University of Singapore Yuling Pan, Georgetown University Sophia C. Papaefthymiou-Lytra, University of Athens, Greece Martha Pennington, City Polytechnic of Hong Kong Terry Pica, The University of Pennsylvania Guy Spielmann, Georgetown University John J. Staczek, Georgetown University Charles Stansfield, Center for Applied Linguistics Steven Sternfeld, University of Utah Earl Stevick, Independent Researcher G. Richard Tucker, Carnegie Mellon University Andrea Tyler, Georgetown University Bill VanPatten, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Monique Wong, Hellenic American Union, Athens, Greece Shelley Wong, University of Maryland, College Park Dolly J. Young, University of Tennessee Gen-Yuan Zhuang, Hangzhou University Elizabeth Zsiga, Georgetown University For more information, please contact: Carolyn A. Straehle, Coordinator, GURT 1995 School of Languages and Linguistics 303 Intercultural Center Georgetown University Washington, DC 20057-1067 e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu phone: (202) 687-5726 fax: (202) 687-5712 GURT registration information and detailed program flyer available from late December 1994 (will be sent automatically to individuals already on mailing list). Proceedings of the Round Table are published annually and are available from Georgetown University Press (410) 516-6995. Annual Meeting of the INTERNATIONAL LINGUISTICS ASSOCIATION (ILA) also to be held at Georgetown, Friday, March 10 - Sunday, March 12. The theme of the 1995 ILA meeting is Discourse and Text Analysis. For more information, contact Ruth Brend, 3363 Burbank Dr., Ann Arbor, MI 48105. Tel: 313/665-2787; Fax: 313/665-9743; E-mail:Ruth.Brend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu. Deadline for abstracts submitted to ILA is January 4, 1995. Abstracts relevant to theme or any other linguistics topic invited. ***************************************************************** Pre-Conference Sessions: March 6 - 8, 1995 The pre-conference sessions will be held in the Intercultural Center of Georgetown University. Please contact the individual organizers for more information. Teaching and Learning Spoken Arabic Organizer: Dr. Margaret Nydell G.U. Department of Arabic Washington, DC 20057-1068 (202) 687-5743 Spanish Linguistics Organizers: Dr. H ctor Campos, Mr. Eric Holt, and Ms. Norma Catalan G.U. Department of Spanish Washington, DC 20057-0989 (202) 687-6134 hcampos[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet hcampos[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu History of Linguistics Organizer: Dr. Kurt R. Jankowsky G.U. Department of German Washington, DC 20057-1068 (202) 687-5812 African Linguistics VI Organizer: Rev. Solomon Sara, S.J. G.U. Department of Linguistics Washington, DC 20057-1068 (202) 687-5956 ssara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet ssara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Portuguese Linguistics Organizer: Dr. Clea A. Rameh G.U. Department of Portuguese Washington, DC 20057-0991 (202) 687-5705 Innovative Audio and Looking at Multimedia (two sessions) Organizer: Jackie Tanner, Director G.U. Language Learning Technology Washington, DC 20057-0984 (202) 687-5766 jtanner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Issues in Slavic Linguistics Organizer: Dr. David Andrews G.U. Department of Russian Washington, DC 20057-0990 (202) 687-6108/6147 Discourse and Agency: Responsibility and Deception Organizer: Dr. Patricia E. O'Connor G.U. Department of English Washington, DC 20057-1068 (202) 687-5956/6226 oconnorpe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet oconnorpe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis Organizer: Dr. Susan Herring Program in Linguistics University of Texas Arlington, TX 76019 (817) 273-3133 susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu Celebration of Bilingual Immersion Programs Organizer: Prof. Dorothy Goodman Friends of International Education P.O. Box 4800 Washington, DC 20008 (202) 363-8510 Issues in Foreign Language Program Direction Organizer: Dr. Ron Leow G.U. Department of Spanish Washington, DC 20057-0989 (202) 687-6134 rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet rleow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Workshops: Criterion-Referenced Curriculum and Test Development for Language Teachers and Administrators Presenter: Dr. Jeff Connor-Linton G.U. Department of Linguistics Washington, DC 20057-1068 (202) 687-6156 Authentic Documents in the Language Class: Theoretical Perspectives and Didactic Applications Presenter: Dr. Guy Speilmann G.U. Department of French Washington, DC 20057-1054 (202) 687-5717 Language Acquisition and Language Education: A Review of Research and Theory and Current Issues Presenter: Dr. Steve Krashen School of Education University of Southern California Los Angeles, CA 90089-0031 ***************************************************************** ***************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 09:18:59 PDT From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: offending idioms Maybe I've become desensitized, but how is "More bang for the buck" offensive? -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 17:02:29 -0400 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Watch your s-mail happy members of the American Dialect Society! For, as these electrons flash along the Internet, the old Highway Superhighway is bringing you the newest Newsletter of the A.D.S.! with 28 pages including: - Complete program for the ADS Annual Meeting, San Diego, December; and a reminder of our special hotel and special hotel rates - Complete program for ADS session at Linguistic Society annual meeting - Proposal on sites of future ADS Annual Meetings - Programs for the four Regional Meetings this month and next - Calls for future meetings, including Methods IX in Wales, summer 1996 and the Dictionary Society in Cleveland next July - Special opportunities: to nominate a student for Presidential Honorary Membership, to participate in the Usage Committee - Nominations for next year's new officers - Directory of our approximately 520 members - our 4-page Teaching Newsletter as an insert - and last but not least, an inside report from our very own ADS-L list owner Natalie Maynor, telling everything you'd like to know about what she did Oct. 1. If you happen not to be a member of the American Dialect Society, you won't get this issue. Unless you ask. Send me your s-mail address and I'll first-class a copy your way, along with a form that will make it convenient for you to join the Society at just $30 a year (which includes not only the newsletter, but American Speech and our monograph series PADS). Happy reading! - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com - Eight new books by ADS members ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:14:08 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms YOu are the second to ask - maybe I'm wrong, or the person who presented the workshop on cultural sensitivity I attended recently, was wrong. I asked a female colleague and she said it is offensive and vulgar to her, too - it has sex for money connotations it her mind, mine, too. How do I find out the actual entomology? Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 16:33:58 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: offending idioms How about bleeding-heart liberals? =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 19:08:23 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Judy Kuster wrote: I am preparing a lecture on cultural sensitivity and language and wonder if anyone can help me think of examples of idioms that are insensitive to ethnic origin, religion, race, gender, etc. I've thought of a few - Indian giver, Jewed him down, More bang for the buck. Anyone think of any more - or suggest where I might find some? Thanks for any suggestions. Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu Overheard a couple years ago in a local thrift shop ("local=MPLS): "He tried to Christian me down. I can't say he tried to Jew me down, because he told me he was the treasurer of his synagogue." Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 19:36:36 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Watch your s-mail Chuck Coker 2347 Muscupiabe Drive (be careful with the spelling, our mail takes a long San Bernardino, CA 92405 time to reach us when misspelled) (909) 882-2099 Internet: CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Oct 1994 to 17 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 18 messages totalling 569 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Watch your s-mail 2. offending idioms (13) 3. Yankee 4. Offending idiom? 5. Historical and socio 6. Free Syllabus magazine subscription ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 21:04:36 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Watch your s-mail Sorry about the message containing my snail-mail address, etc. I REPLYd by mistake to the list instead of sending my stuff to the intended recipient. I'll try not to let it happen again. :-) Chuck Coker ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Oct 1994 21:31:57 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: offending idioms From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU YOu are the second to ask - maybe I'm wrong, or the person who presented the workshop on cultural sensitivity I attended recently, was wrong. I asked a female colleague and she said it is offensive and vulgar to her, too - it has sex for money connotations it her mind, mine, too. How do I find out the actual entomology? It owuld be nice tohave some of the context included so we could figure out what you're talking about. Entomology? Better check your dictionary for that word before you include it in your paper. =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:26:03 EDT From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Though some males may preen at being called a "hunk" or "stud," these objectifying terms can be as jarring as the older, informal term for a girl: "filly." Male libbers may also look askance at the use of "booty" as a posterior descriptive, especially when thinking of the denotative "loot" or "treasure." Even "groovy" has its potential as a sex offender when thinking of its origins as "in the groove," meaning exciting or stimulating, seen most strongly in song lyrics such as "shake your groove thing." But there seem to be two levels at which these terms work. On the public level of usage, offense seems to occur more readily from idiomatic animal comparisons like "chick." On the private level, there is, at times, an enjoyment, amusement, and enthusiasm for the malleability of our language. So on one plane, certain highland clans may take humbrage at "scot free" (though it has no relation to the many derogatory references to Scottish cheapness), while on another, the inner group enjoys a certain mockery of itself. And terms change from negative to positive (as in "yankee") or shift focus (as in "honky"). Am I making sense here? Perhaps I need some Dutch courage or maybe I'm just horsing around (originally a sexual idiom). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:25:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Robert Chapman, New Dictionary of American Slang gives this etymology for "bang for the buck": fr a frivolous way of referring to the national defense budget and the destructive power it produces. (p. 16). He does not provide evidencefor his etymology, but the contextsin which it seems to occur most frequently would support him. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 07:32:29 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms mockery of itself. And terms change from negative to positive (as in "yankee") or shift focus (as in "honky"). Am I making sense here? Perhaps You were making sense until you gave "yankee" as an example of a term that has changed from negative to positive. ;-) Are we talking about terms that are subtly offensive because of etymology that isn't necessarily apparent, or are we including blatantly offensive terms? If the latter, nobody has mentioned "nigger rig" yet. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:00:43 EDT From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms A Yankee was originally a derogatory term for a Dutchman ("Jan Cheese" [though there is disagreement about this]), but the colonists took the slur on with pride, transforming the nasty "Yankee Doodle Dandy" into a marching song. The term became negative again during the War of Northern Agression; then positive during World War I ("the Yanks are coming"), then negative again during the Civil War Centenniel of 1960-64. Yankee ingenuity has a positive note, but down here, the negative connotation still exists, though tempered with humor. "Honky" seems to have degenerated from "bohunk," a term for "ignorant" eastern European immigrants from Bohemia and Hungaria (later "hunky" and adopted by African Americans integrating the deteriorating Harlem. I'd cite sources but I'm almost late for class and they're all piled in my closet (the sources, not my students). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:59:39 EDT From: MICHAEL K PARSONS mkpars01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms It maybe a shot in the dark, but I also have the impression that "more bang for the buck" has leadings towards assumed prostition. Another phrase that has similar connotations is "wham bam thank you ma'm." It's from a song called (I think) "Something Jessie Did." Not sure of the artist, but it's a good song, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:32:25 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms good one, Roger. Thanks. Judy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:59:34 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Thanks for a "real life" (and close to home - I frequent the thrift shops in Mpls, too) example! Judy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:10:03 PDT From: Joseph Jones jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA Subject: Yankee In Canada, Yankee refers to anyone south of the border, no matter how far south, unless you cross into Mexico. Not a completely positive term. Hard for a transplanted southerner to take. Joseph Jones ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 08:44:21 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms 'Another phrase that has similar connotations is "what bam thank you ma'am." Ot It's from a song ...' Nope, it's not. It's a pretty old catchphrase ... that has always had sexual intent (unlike 'bang for the buck'). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:25:06 -0700 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms . . . snip, snip . . . nobody has mentioned "nigger rig" yet. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) This is a tangent, sorry, but I was offended by this: When my grandfather and grandmother were building Boulder Dam (Hoover Dam is the proper name) on the Colorado River, they had a camp mascot. It was a jet black dog -- I've seen many pictures -- named "Nigger." In the thirties, I suppose that was acceptable. Anyway, during the construction, the dog got run over and died. The workers buried the dog in the dam, sealing his tomb with the concrete you see nowdays. They marked Nigger's resting place with a plaque -- something to the effect of: Here lies Nigger, who helped build this damn dam. Don't quote me on that, but it was something like that. The plaque was about halfway up the dam and could not be seen unless you were looking for it. (I saw it through binoculars once as a child.) Somebody complained -- I don't know how they saw the marker, unless they knew about it before looking -- and the plaque was removed. Offensive or not, that was a small part of history. The plaque was *NOT* in plain sight where everybody *HAD TO* look at it. (You could just barely see it if you knew it was there!) I find it offensive that a piece of history was removed in the name of political correctness. If the federal government feels the need to stop the use of the word "nigger," how about they start in my neighborhood where the black people call each other "nigger." (I also object to the politcally correct term African- American -- the only true "African-Americans" I know are of European ancestry many generation back, and they are whiter than I am. I don't personally know any black African-Americans.) (I think I mispelled plaque, but I don't feel like getting my dictionary out right now. :-) ) Maybe "nigger" doesn't seem worth fighting over to me because I'm part white and part Indian (oops, Native American). By the way, I am *NOT* racist. Here's some offensive idioms (?) for your list: Indian Giver Apple (red on the outside, white on the inside) Coconut (brown on the outside, white on the inside -- my wife is Mexican) Hey, how about sports teams: Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, Kansas City Chiefs, etc., etc. We need, just to be fair, the Nashville Niggers and the Hoboken Honkies. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 13:04:47 CDT From: Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: offending idioms I recall that folklorist Archie Green, in a paper on Labor Lingo, reported the terms Irish buggy and African diesel were being used on construction sites to refer to a wheelbarrow. William Safire, in a column from August 1980, discussed occupational slurs. I think he used the term occuslurs. Re: "more bang for the buck" If anyone is interested I can provide information from the Peter Tamony collection that relates to the sexual connotations of the term bang and as it relates to drug usage. Tamony collected info from the works of Eric Partridge, David Mauer and others for bang as a sexual term. He also found examples from the writings of James Baldwin, Jack Kerouac and others. Randy Roberts University of Missouri-Columbia robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:54:21 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms In Message Tue, 18 Oct 1994 09:25:06 -0700, "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu writes: If the federal government feels the need to stop the use of the word "nigger," how about they start in my neighborhood where the black people call each other "nigger." It's true that some African Americans often/sometimes use the term "nigger" with special pragmatic intent, but I don't know whether I would formulate it the way you do. (I also object to the politcally correct term African- American -- the only true "African-Americans" I know are of European ancestry many generation back, and they are whiter than I am. Could you cite your source(s)? I am curious? Maybe "nigger" doesn't seem worth fighting over to me because I'm part white and part Indian (oops, Native American). By the way, I am *NOT* racist. How would you know the difference when you don't even realize when you might offend or hurt others? Let the rest of us tell you what we think of your remarks. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 14:19:58 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Subject: Offending idiom? Natalie Maynor's mention of "Yankee" reminds me of something. The following idiom would be ironic and, perhaps, offensive to some: "Let me give you a Yankee dime." "If you do this for me, I'll give you a Yankee dime." The folks at DARE can doubtless inform us of the regional spread of this, but it's a well-known phrase, among old-timers at least, in the South. A "Yankee dime" is a kiss, and not necessarily a cheap one! Perhaps DARE can speculate on its origin as well? Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, U of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 11:32:48 -0700 From: bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Historical and socio I've noticed that there's some overlap in the subscribers to this list and to Anglo-Saxon Net, which I find heartening since I'm a grad student in sociolinguistics but I also do more historically oriented research on English, and sometimes I feel like I'm the only one in the world with both interests. I'd appreciate hearing from people who have similar research interests to know how you're reconciling two areas that unfortunately are often not seen as closely related (I can't tell you how many times people have expressed surprise at what I do). I'd be interested in knowing: - How common is it to find a position that allows one to wear both hats? - Are such positions primarily in English departments, or do they exist in linguistics departments as well? - What kind of courses do you teach, and are both aspects of your research equally valued and supported by your department? Were you hired to teach in both areas or is only one seen as your "official" role? - Which professional organizations do you belong to and what conferences do you participate in? - If you supervise graduate students, what type of interests do they tend to have? - Do you feel at all marginalized, or are there advantages to having diverse interests? A lot of questions, I know, but I can use all the information I can get. Please reply privately; I can send a summary to anyone who would like one. Thanks a lot, Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu Dept. of Linguistics 2337 Dwinelle Hall University of California Berkeley, CA 94720 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 12:45:00 -0500 From: Syllabus Press Syllabus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM Subject: Free Syllabus magazine subscription Moderator/Listowner, Syllabus Press is offering free subscriptions to Syllabus magazine for qualified academic professionals interested in the use of technology in education, particularly at the college, university, community college, and high school levels. Syllabus magazine has an eight-year track record of covering technology in higher education and is well-known in the academic community. The attached announcement below further explains the scope of our coverage and how to qualify for a free subscription. 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A horny old rabbit is moving among his females saying Wham Bam (rapidity and frequency of rabbit intercourse is the joke for you city folks). In the telling of the joke this is said several times, then the line Wham Bam Sorry Sam concludes the telling. Although the line, therefore, orginally had animal sexual reference, the transfer to humans was obvious and usual (at least in my Louisville KY 1940s and 50s childhood). I wanted to set the rabbit history of this phrase straight. Dennis Preston ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Oct 1994 to 18 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 13 messages totalling 393 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. offending idioms (7) 2. CILCA '95 3. VOSEO 4. Listas/e-mail 5. spread of NYC dialect 6. names question 7. Future American English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 18:28:44 -0400 From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Re: offending idioms Dead white European male. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:36:11 -0400 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: CILCA '95 Disculpen los pequenos errores del ultimo anuncio(fecha limite): AVISO IMPORTANTE TERCER CONGRESO INTERNACIONAL DE LITERATURA CENTROAMERICANA C.I.L.C.A. '95 Ciudad de Guatemala: 22-24 de febrero de 1995 Mande abstractos (una pagina) y propuestas para sesiones especiales antes del 1 de diciembre de 1994 a: Send abstracts (one page) and proposals for special sessions by Dec.1,1994 to: Jorge Roman-Lagunas Conference Director Foreign Languages & Literatures Purdue University Calumet Hammond, IN 46323-2094 Telephone: (219)989-2632 Fax: (219)989-2581 E-mail: in%"romanlj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pucal.bitnet" Congreso organizado por la Universidad de San Carlos de Guatemala y Purdue University Calumet La conferencia se especializa en literatura de Centroamerica pero ahora estamos haciendo una llamada especial a los linguistas interesados en presentar un tema relacionado con algun estudio linguistico sobre Centroamerica. The Conference is prncipally interested in research on Central American literature but is making a special call to linguists for research on Central American linguistics. Mande abstractos sobre estudios de literatura centroamericana al: Profesor Roman Lagunas Mande abstractos de linguistica al: Profesor Rey Send abstracts on studies of Central American Literature to: Professor Roman-Lagunas Send linguistics abstracts to: Profesor Rey Fecha limite para los abstractos es el 1 de diciembre de 1994. Deadline for abstracts is Dec. 1, 1994. Inscripcion/Registration: Profesores- $95(antes/before 15-nov-94) $125(despues/after 16-nov-94) Estudiantes- $65(antes/before 15-nov-94) $85(despues/after 16-nov-94) Favor de enviar cheque o giro postal a nombre de "CILCA" a: Jorge Roman-Lagunas a la direccion indicada anteriormente. Alberto Rey Department of Modern Languages & Literatures Howard University Washington,D.C. 20059 Phone: (202)806-6758 Fax: (202)806-4562 E-mail: alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cldc.howard.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:37:06 -0400 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: VOSEO SI PUEDEN--- NECESITO AYUDA EN COSTA RICA ! Lo que he hecho hasta ahora son estudios en Nicaragua, Honduras y Colombia sobre las correlaciones sociales del uso del usted/tu/vos en diversas situaciones de actos de comunicacion. Esto lo hago a traves de encuetas directas con individuos de diferentes clases sociales, niveles educacionales/ocupacionales, diferentes ingresos economicos, etc. Ahora estoy preparando una propuesta para una beca del Social Science Research Council (EE.UU.). Para ayudarme a conseguir la beca necesito una persona "GRANDE" en el campo de linguistica/ciencias sociales en C.R. que me sirva de coordinador/"contact person". Esta persona me conseguiria de 5 a 7 personas capacitadas en encuestas linguisticas y coordinara las encuestas para que sean llevadas a diferentes niveles de vecindarios en San Jose. Ese coordinador estaria en continuo contacto con los entrevistadores y conmigo para asegurar que estan cumpliendo con las normas establecidas para las encuestas. Yo pienso que se les pagaria a los entrevistadores unos $4/entrevista y al coordinador de $1-2/entrevista, dependiendo de la dificultad del sondeo y su "involvement". Le cuento que el "contact person" en Nicaragua fue Jorge Eduardo Arellano - Presidente del Instituto Nacional de Cultura de Nicaragua y Director General de la Biblioteca Nacional- Jorge Eduardo me escribio una carta de apoyo/colaboracion que me ayudo muchisimo en conseguir la beca. Claro es que como esta tan ocupado, me consiguio a otra persona como el coordinador- Carlos Aleman Ocampo. Espero que con estos datos me pueda ayudar. Si tiene alguna pregunta o inquietud escribame. De nuevo, MUCHAS GRACIAS ! Alberto Rey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 01:04:42 -0400 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: Listas/e-mail Sabe alguien de una lista en Costa que se llamaba IRAZU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucrvm2.bitnet ? Parece que ya no existe. Tambien antes existia otro "nombre"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]huracan.cr .Que les paso ? O sea, estoy buscando una lista actualizada para la investigacion que estoy preparando sobre el "voseo" en Costa Rica. Toda ayuda sera apreciada. Gracias. Alberto Rey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:28:19 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Tue, 18 Oct 1994, Terry Pratt, UPEI wrote: Dead white European male. Terry, ya dinna understand. "Dead white European male" is PROGRESSIVE. What is progressive cannot be insensitive, and if you think it is, you are being DEFENSIVE. Any questions? There will be a quiz, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 08:30:51 EDT From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms . . . snip, snip . . . nobody has mentioned "nigger rig" yet. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) This is a tangent, sorry, but I was offended by this: When my grandfather and grandmother were building Boulder Dam (Hoover Dam is the proper name) on the Colorado River, they had a camp mascot. It was a jet black dog -- I've seen many pictures -- named "Nigger." In the thirties, I suppose that was acceptable. Anyway, during the construction, the dog got run over and died. The workers buried the dog in the dam, sealing his tomb with the concrete you see nowdays. They marked Nigger's resting place with a plaque -- something to the effect of: Here lies Nigger, who helped build this damn dam. Don't quote me on that, but it was something like that. The plaque was about halfway up the dam and could not be seen unless you were looking for it. (I saw it through binoculars once as a child.) Somebody complained -- I don't know how they saw the marker, unless they knew about it before looking -- and the plaque was removed. Offensive or not, that was a small part of history. The plaque was *NOT* in plain sight where everybody *HAD TO* look at it. (You could just barely see it if you knew it was there!) I find it offensive that a piece of history was removed in the name of political correctness. If the federal government feels the need to stop the use of the word "nigger," how about they start in my neighborhood where the black people call each other "nigger." (I also object to the politcally correct term African- American -- the only true "African-Americans" I know are of European ancestry many generation back, and they are whiter than I am. I don't personally know any black African-Americans.) (I think I mispelled plaque, but I don't feel like getting my dictionary out right now. :-) ) Maybe "nigger" doesn't seem worth fighting over to me because I'm part white and part Indian (oops, Native American). By the way, I am *NOT* racist. Here's some offensive idioms (?) for your list: Indian Giver Apple (red on the outside, white on the inside) Coconut (brown on the outside, white on the inside -- my wife is Mexican) Hey, how about sports teams: Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, Kansas City Chiefs, etc., etc. We need, just to be fair, the Nashville Niggers and the Hoboken Honkies. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== It may sound patronizing (or matronizing), CJ, but it may be consciousness-raising time for you as cave-dweller. As much as I wouldn't want to offend the memory of your grandparents, the name they gave their dog is racist and reflects the very deep-seated, dehumanizing treatment of black people through a long and mainly unfortunate contact with caucasians. The humor they might have found in the name (perhaps even laughing good-naturedly as they called him/her to supper, "Here, Nigger!") is the kind that derogates rather than uplifts--even if quite human. Intuitively speaking, it would seem that one of our goals as cherishers of language is recognition of its powerful vileness as well as its beauty and wonder. Though the PC mindset has gone overboard, its original notion was an inclusiveness in contrast with the exclusivity of the past. Now, whether a group is apparently seeking identity by renaming itself to highlight a trampled heritage--and seems separatist in so doing--the renaming itself reflects respect for language's power in the naming of things. I remember a former partner/spouse's mountain kin goading me on at a Thanksgiving dinner, knowing I was the "liberal college boy," by loudly passing me a bowl and asking if I wanted some "nigger toes" (Brazil nuts) and shouting at the TV football game, "Run, nigger, run!" their eyes glinting with a kind of secret glee, almost hoping I would burst on their turf. No scene for me, whether through cowardice or the holiday's own stifling of conflict (probably the former), though I never returned. The huge sense of mockery of another group clung to me like an annoying fungus--and I itch to this day. I, who am French, Indian, German, Swedish, Scotch-Irish, may grin at the latest excess in lingualaundering, but I certainly understand the "why" of it. CJ, the plaque should have been removed, just as offensive graffiti is washed from the walls, not because the original intent may have seemed harmless to the "insiders" who knew its story, but because we really do need to be wary of the inadvertant hurt caused by terms that are (how do I underline in e-mail?) racist and carry the weight of years. So, I'm preaching and you're offended...the neat thing about these billboards on the superhighway is that, unlike plaques hung on distant dams, you can delete this with one keystroke. David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 12:07:28 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: offending idioms I suggest "Anglo". Look at my surname and tell me if that's English. =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:00:14 EDT From: JOHN A KIDD jakidd01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Judy, I cannot think of any idioms at this time but I think the "How many Pollocks does it take..." jokes are extremely insensitive and would be a good example to use in this type of lecture. Hope I helped! John A. Kidd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 13:12:25 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, David Muschell wrote: ... I, who am French, Indian, German, Swedish, Scotch-Irish, may grin at the latest excess in lingualaundering, but I certainly understand the "why" of it. CJ, the plaque should have been removed, just as offensive graffiti is washed from the walls, not because the original intent may have seemed harmless to the "insiders" who knew its story, but because we really do need to be wary of the inadvertant hurt caused by terms that are (how do I underline in e-mail?) racist and carry the weight of years. So, I'm preaching and you're offended...the neat thing about these billboards on the superhighway is that, unlike plaques hung on distant dams, you can delete this with one keystroke. David David - This is the best defence of the PC mindset I have seen in a long time. You are moderate, kind and reasoned. Well done. On the other hand (Knew that was coming, eh?), we have the odd situation that people who ARE NOT MEMBERS of a group decide they will defend the group, whether asked or not. Dangerous, not unlike Boy Scouts dragging unconsenting old ladies accross intersections. One curious and really pernicious result is that people with cruel hearts and tongues, who relish hurting with epithets, are getting to occupy the defender-of-freedom role. Another odd thing is the almost certain backfire. Rules are created by which it is unacceptable to say something bad about any group. Intended to protect minorities from harm, these rules nevertheless have a universal applicability. They can therefore, in the humorless arena of the courts, be used to stifle criticism of the majority. And they will. There are other - maybe the word should be something neutral - "reactive byproducts" to enforced goodness. But the country's experiment with Prohibition still stands as an archetype, and a warning. Where would the Mafia be today, without the Women's Christian Termperance Union? Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 17:03:40 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Roger Vanderveen wrote: I suggest "Anglo". Look at my surname and tell me if that's English. =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== As one might imagine, this one is doubly annoying to Irish-Americans. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 18:16:57 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: spread of NYC dialect Are there any studies of how far the New York City dialect has spread north into Upstate NY? And is there a pattern to the spread -- faster in more urbanized areas, for example? Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 18:19:19 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: names question Does anyone know when it stopped being common to name American male children after incumbent Presidents? (Not just the first name, but also the President's surname as a middle name.) Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 18:32:03 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Future American English In 1938, ASTOUNDING SCIENCE FICTION (now ANALOG) published "Language for Time Travellers" -- an article by L. Sprague De Camp. By this time, they might be ready to publish another article on the same topic. If not, one of their competitors might be. Or any of several publications for people writing (or trying to write) science fiction. Has anything useful been written on the future of American English? I'm attempting to write a novel set mostly in 2156 America (Upper Midwest). I _think_ it's safe to assume that 1) American English will still be intelligible to someone of our time -- though with some difficulty; 2) There will still be dialects -- not necessarily the same ones that exist today; 3) there will be new immigrant dialects. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Oct 1994 to 19 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 21 messages totalling 601 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. names question (5) 2. Afro-Seminole 3. offending idiot (3) 4. Bounced Mail (2) 5. offending idioms (5) 6. Recognize these sayings? 7. Forty-eleven 8. Animal Gender, Again 9. Naming after Presidents 10. Net Gremlins at UGA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 22:43:12 -0700 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: names question Does anyone know when it stopped being common to name American male children after incumbent Presidents? (Not just the first name, but also the President's surname as a middle name.) Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu I don't know about incumbent presidents, but my grandfather (b. 1905) was named Andrew Jackson Coker -- after the president. My father (b. 1936) was named Gerald Jackson Coker; the Jackson name was kept, but Gerald was substituted for Andrew. (I (b. 1959) am Charles Jackson Coker). My grandmother was fiercely politcal, so a presidential name would not have surprised me. However, naming after presidents may have stopped being common by 1936; maybe my grandparents just simply didn't like a presidential name; or maybe, since my grandfather married a Cherokee woman, and Andrew Jackson was arguably the most anti-Indian president in US history (especially anti-Cherokee, among others), my grandmother found the name Andrew Jackson offensive. (I find it ironic that *ANDREW JACKSON* married a Cherokee woman.) This probably doesn't answer your question, but I have been curious about naming practices also. (You should see my youngest daughter's Social Security card; it says: Galiquoginei Unvquola -- seems Social Security can only handle 21 letters. Her full first name is Galiquoginei Unvquolatvi (Cherokee = Seventh Rainbow) after my grandmother. Pronounce vowels like in Spanish, v like u in but.) I'd like to see more on the list about naming practices, also. Hello out there, Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 23:42:21 -0700 From: Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEACCD.CTC.EDU Subject: Afro-Seminole Does anyone know of any sources which has as the content information about Afro-Seminole creole/dialect? I am in sore need of developing a working list of sources around this dialect. Thanks so much for any help in advance Audrey... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 00:35:32 -0700 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot I'm they guy who sent the Boulder Dam story along with a few comments of my own regarding "offending idioms." Since that posting, which I sent on 18 October, I have received numerous replies. At last tally, the vote was roughly 3 to 2 in favor of me being an *OFFENDING IDIOT* (my words). Salikoko S. Mufwene of the University of Chicago, Department of Linguistics said: . . . when you don't even realize when you might offend or hurt others? Let the rest of us tell you what we think of your remarks. . . . He is correct; my comments might (did) offend others. And, yes, the rest of you told me what you thought of my remarks. (Not all was negative, however, some agreed with me.) I OFFER MY HUMBLEST APOLOGY TO ALL WHO MIGHT HAVE BEEN OFFENDED -- THOSE WHO WROTE ME AND THOSE WHO DID NOT. The point I was trying to make (obviously not very well) was that I think the "offending idioms" are stupid. (The people that use the racial, etc. slurs, *NOT* the people who responded to me or to the original request.) For to those of you who asked, my vital statistics are: Married Heterosexual Male Myself: White (?) European and Cherokee Indian descent (the name Coker was a Moorish name around 800 A.D., appeared in England around 1200 A.D.) Wife: Mexican descent (possibly some French way back) Child 1: 18 years, adopted (wife's previous marriage), half-Mexican, half-Black Child 2: 17 years, adopted (wpm, as above), half-Mexican, half-Black Child 3: 14 years, twin, White, Indian, Mexican Child 4: 14 years, twin, White, Indian, Mexican Child 5: 11 years, White, Indian, Mexican Child 6: 10 months (oops!), White, Indian, Mexican Child 7: 3 years, granddaughter, White, Black, Oriental, Indian, Mexican, (that I know of anyway -- I don't know the father's history) In summary, no, I am *NOT* racist, as I said before. Yes, I do realize my remarks might have offended somebody. No, that was not my intention -- I apologize to those offended. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu By the way, does anybody know what box my granddaughter should check on forms that ask about race? Personally, I consider myself _Homo sapiens sapiens_, along with all others on this list (and elsewhere, too). P.S. #2: I just realized that I SET PERSONAL_NAME to Caveman a while back and never changed it. When considering my remarks, consider the source -- a guy nicknamed "Caveman." =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 05:45:34 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Bounced Mail **************************************************************** REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS. **************************************************************** Subject: ADS-L: error report from VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid 9425 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to the list has been found in mail body. ------------------ Message in error (57 lines) ------------------------- Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 16:33:58 -0700 From: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: offending idioms Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 15:00:14 EDT From: JOHN A KIDD jakidd01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Judy, I cannot think of any idioms at this time but I think the "How many Pollocks does it take..." jokes are extremely insensitive and would be a good example to use in this type of lecture. Hope I helped! John A. Kidd POLLOCK : ALSO POLLACK :A marine food fish, _Pollachius virens_, of northern Atlantic waters. [Scottish podlok.] POLLOCK, Jackson. 1912-1956. American artist; a leader of the abstract expressionist school. POLACK: 1. Obsolete. A native of Poland; a Pole. 2. Slang. A person of Polish descent or birth. An offensive term used derogatorily. [Polish Polak...] SPELLING: ... b. The art or study of orthography. . . . (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, New College Edition) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 06:57:03 EDT From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Since it was used a while back in this discussion, let me register my offense at "The War of Northern Aggression,:" y'all. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:14:27 -0400 From: Ernest Scatton ESCATTON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: names question Naming after presidents (at least first names) went on past 1936. My brother is Franklin...after Franklin D. Roosevelt; he (brother) was born in 1943. Incidentally, middle name is Winston, after Churchill: a nice display of WWII solidarity. Next brother, born 1946, was _not_ named after Truman, nor have any other of the many male offspring in our largish family, since.then ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:58:38 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: names question On the decline of the Presidential naming practice: my guess would be that there was a huge fall-off between the set of babies who were middle-named "Roosevelt" into the 1940's and those who were middle-named "Truman" or any subsequent such name. But I imagine a graph would prove very uneven, with considerably more "Roosevelt"s (in Teddy's day) and perhaps "Wilson"s than, say "Taft"s or "Hoover"s. Just an uneducated guess, of course. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 09:32:04 -0600 From: Larry Davis DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Those of you interested in this subject might take a look at McDavid's edition of Mencken's THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE and Pederson's (1966) disseration on Chicago English. Both contain a wealth of material on "terms of abuse" for ethnic groups. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:24:17 EDT From: EMILY J LOVELY ejlove01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms What about the term "JAP SLAP". I have heard this term used by my younger brother: "I'm gonna Jap Slap you." From the context it is obviously some sort of violent act that he wishes to perform on me. Whether this is an offending idiom I don't know, I'm just throwing it out to see if any one else knows and to complete a class assignment for Terry Irons. E. Lovely MSU undergraduate student ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:56:23 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: offending idiot From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Child 7: 3 years, granddaughter, White, Black, Oriental, Indian, Mexican, (that I know of anyway -- I don't know the father's history) In summary, no, I am *NOT* racist, as I said before. Yes, I do realize my remarks might have offended somebody. No, that was not my intention -- I apologize to those offended. Sorry, Chuck, you just offended someone there by saying "Oriental!" One of the ridiculous aspects of "supposed racism", is that you are called a racist if you "don't keep" with the currently accepted term, or if you are not a member of the group you refer to. The example already given was niggers, oops, sorry, I mean negroes, no, wait a minute, coloreds, no, that's not right either, umm, Afro-Americans, oops, that was 60s, it's, uhh, blacks, yeah, no! it's become African Americans, yeah, you people, calling yourselves niggers! =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:07:59 -0400 From: TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Recognize these sayings? Some members of this list probably know of my DICTIONARY OF PRINCE EDWARD ISLAND ENGLISH, 1988, and a few may know I am close to finishing a sequel, on Prince Edward Island sayings. The thing is, I have a few in this second collection that I don't trust as being "local," and a few others the meanings of which simply escape me. I haven't found enough information on either group in the numerous other famous and otherwise collections of sayings (or catchphrases, proverbs, idioms, etc) that I consult for each contender. As a last resort, then, I turn to the members of this well-informed list. What I propose to do here is show you these 19 sayings in two groups, and ask you to write me, very briefly, if you have heard any of them. I suspect that most subsribers would prefer that we not clutter the list with public responses, so do consider that I have one of the easiest addresses on the highway, simply: "tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca" But I will also number the sayings, so if you want to write a fast public (or private) response, just list the numbers. First, Group I, the ones that sound to me as if they probably are used widely. I ask you simply to tell me if they are found OUTSIDE THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES OF CANADA OR THE NEW ENGLAND STATES. You might mention where the broader distribution is, but even that is not necessary: 1. Crazy as a lark. [not "happy as ..."] 2. Who died and left you king / queen / boss / God? 3. They would drink the well dry. [alcoholic] 4. Eatons don't tell Simpsons their business. [Canadian dept stores] 5. Someone will have lots of stars in their crown [in heaven]. 6. You might as well try to keep Niagara Falls back with a teaspoon / fork. 7. You might as well try to fill the Grand Canyon with a teaspoon / fork. 8. You might as well try to climb Mount Everest. Now Group II. These ones may well also be non-"local" non- contenders. But in any case, I don't know what they mean. Sometimes cognate or parallel or similar sayings, from anywhere, can help to shed light on a meaning. Consider this list, with its attached questions, analogous to the ones that the DARE editors sometimes send out, about uncertain data: 9. A cross between a door-sill and a door-mat. -- Someone is doubly imposed upon? Or something is an impossible mixture? 10. A face that could wear out two bodies. -- Means ugly or pretty? Or two-faced, a double-dealer? 11. All that's left of him is the gear shift / the running gear. -- And what's that? Is this sexual? Could it ever be "her"? Does it mean 'very thin'? 12. Cakes and pies before your eyes where porridge was intended. -- Used when? Any German connection here? 13. I went to school and got my Ph.D. [meaning 'posthole digger'] -- Rueful? An attack on eggheads? 14. When you see a pig you should kick it. -- Why? (poor pig!) Is this a proverb? 15. You can hang a powder horn on the tip of the moon. -- A weather saying re new moon, but for good weather or bad? 16. The two days will come to everyone. -- Which two days - birth and death? The weekend? 17. To slip one's mind. [meaning NOT 'forget', but 'die'] -- Can this really have the meaning 'to die'? 18. By the end of the stick! [a mild oath] -- Why? What stick? 19. To be sure to think one is not the train -- How's that again? That's it and thanks. You will be acknowledged in the volume, and I will also post a thanks at the end of this process, along with any generalizations that might seem useful. Terry Pratt, University of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, PEI, Canada C1A 4P3. (902) 566-0677. FAX (902) 566-0420. E-mail "tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:48:25 EDT From: LORI B BALDRIDGE lbbald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Though some males may preen at being called a "hunk" or "stud," these objectifying terms can be as jarring as the older, informal term for a girl: "filly." Male libbers may also look askance at the use of "booty" as a posterior descriptive, especially when thinking of the denotative "loot" or "treasure." Even "groovy" has its potential as a sex offender when thinking of its origins as "in the groove," meaning exciting or stimulating, seen most strongly in song lyrics such as "shake your groove thing." But there seem to be two levels at which these terms work. On the public level of usage, offense seems to occur more readily from idiomatic animal comparisons like "chick." On the private level, there is, at times, an enjoyment, amusement, and enthusiasm for the malleability of our language. So on one plane, certain highland clans may take humbrage at "scot free" (though it has no relation to the many derogatory references to Scottish cheapness), while on another, the inner group enjoys a certain mockery of itself. And terms change from negative to positive (as in "yankee") or shift focus (as in "honky"). Am I making sense here? Perhaps I need some Dutch courage or maybe I'm just horsing around (originally a sexual idiom). Some animal rights activists may be offended by your use of animal references. Last year I read a book (I can't remember the exact title, but it was something like "1001 Ways to Save the Animals"), in which a whole chapter was dedicated to erasing phrases such as "dog ugly" and "fat as a pig" from the English language. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:01:38 EDT From: SHANE J SALLEE sjsall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Forty-eleven I was wondering if anybody out there has ever heard of the expression forty-eleven. I used to live in Lexington, Kentucky and never heard of this until I moved up to Carter County, Kentucky. At first, I thought, "What the hell?" But now, it's become common place to me and I say all the time. For those of you who need a definition(Lori, my God, quit staring over my shoulder), forty-eleven is a number that is not defined. It can mean a few or very many things in a group. Anyway, before I was interrupted, I just wanted to see if this was common anyplace else other than here. Thanks a whole forty-eleven bunch, Shane Sallee ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 11:17:13 -0700 From: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms On Wed, 19 Oct 1994 jakidd01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU wrote: Judy, I cannot think of any idioms at this time but I think the "How many Pollocks does it take..." jokes are extremely insensitive and would be a good example to use in this type of lecture. Hope I helped! ----------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------- POLLOCK : ALSO POLLACK :A marine food fish, _Pollachius virens_, of northern Atlantic waters. [Scottish podlok.] POLLOCK, Jackson. 1912-1956. American artist; a leader of the abstract expressionist school. POLACK: 1. Obsolete. A native of Poland; a Pole. 2. Slang. A person of Polish descent or birth. An offensive term used derogatorily. [Polish Polak...] SPELLING: ... b. The art or study of orthography. . . . (The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, New College Edition) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:50:29 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Animal Gender, Again The comments I received earlier about the pronouns used here and there for animals were interesting, but inconclusive. The problem of mixed up gender for animals with specified sex showed up in my reading last night in Vinaver's 1971 edition of Malory's _Works_ (original text before 1471, the year of Malory's death). In this passage, read Malory's normal _brachet_ for _bracket_, 'a female dog': And anone thys lityll bracket felte a savoure of sir Trystram. He lepte uppon hym and lycked hys learys and hys earys, and than he whyned and quested, and she smelled at hys feete and at hys hondis and on al the partyes of hys body that she myght com to. (p. 309) As far as I can tell, Tristram is not leaping and licking on the dog and Damsel Brangwayn and La Beall Isode are not sniffing at Tristram's feet, hands, and other accessible body parts. Apparently, the dog is referred to with both _he_ (surely not a remnant of _heo_!) and _she_. At any rate, this confusion is not limited to our times. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:54:53 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: names question For those interested in naming practices, a good place to ask might be roots-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.nodak.edu There are many genealogists there with good information:-) Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 13:37:06 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idiot One of the ridiculous aspects of "supposed racism", is that you are called a racist of you"don't keep" with the currently acceptied term, or if you are not a member of the group you refer to. .. I'm not as sure that somebody who uses last season's word is seen as racist in the worst sense as much as he's seen as somebody who hasn't been paying attention. It's like your sister's deciding she wants to be called 'Stacey' now rather than 'Bootums' or 'Hag-face'. She's asserting, and you're resenting, the implication that your understanding is not as compelte as you thought it was. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 16:54:38 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Subject: Naming after Presidents EArlier today Chuck Coker wrote that it was ironic that Andrew Jackson, under whose administration the Trail of Tears occurred, had married a Cherokee woman. Am I misremembering my Tennessee history? Jackson married Rachel Donelson, but was she part Cherokee? Perhaps Coker is confusing Jackson with Sam Houston, who did marry a Cherokee woman in Blount County sometime around 1819; Houston was governor of Tennessee before going to Texas. Haven't had time to look this up, though. Michael MOntgomery, Dept of English, U of South CArolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 17:28:51 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Net Gremlins at UGA In case you're wondering why mail from ADS-L has been so slow the past few days and is perhaps arriving out of order, it's because something strange happened with UGA's net connectivity earlier this week. Although connectivity was reestablished within 24 hours or so, LISTSERV is still choking on the backlog. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 17:22:22 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: names question Perhaps tih Eisenhower. I've known folks first-named Roosevelt and Truman, but not Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, or Nixon. Joe Monda On Wed, 19 Oct 1994, Daniel S Goodman wrote: Does anyone know when it stopped being common to name American male children after incumbent Presidents? (Not just the first name, but also the President's surname as a middle name.) Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 19:57:02 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Bounced Mail **************************************************************** REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS. **************************************************************** Subject: ADS-L: error report from ACDCA.ITT.COM The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid 0685 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to the list has been found in mail body. ------------------ Message in error (44 lines) ------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Oct 94 14:46:24 PDT From: benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acdca.itt.com (Peter Benson) Subject: Re: Forty-eleven Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 14:01:38 EDT From: SHANE J SALLEE sjsall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Forty-eleven I was wondering if anybody out there has ever heard of the expression forty-eleven. I used to live in Lexington, Kentucky and never heard of this until I moved up to Carter County, Kentucky. At first, I thought, "What the hell?" But now, it's become common place to me and I say all the time. For those of you who need a definition(Lori, my God, quit staring over my shoulder), forty-eleven is a number that is not defined. It can mean a few or very many things in a group. Anyway, before I was interrupted, I just wanted to see if this was common anyplace else other than here. Thanks a whole forty-eleven bunch, Shane Sallee I am only familiar with forty-eleven from an old comic book I read in my youth. I believe it was Mighty Mouse. What about umpteen or umpty-ump as other dialect terms for an unspecified or very large number of things. Peter Benson, Ph.D. | ITT Aerospace/Communications Division phone: (619)578-3080 | 10060 Carroll Canyon Road fax: (619)578-5371 | San Diego, CA 92131 email: benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acdca.itt.com or Peter_Benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUSM.edu or benson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]escondido.csusm.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Oct 1994 to 20 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 12 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Forty-eleven (5) 2. Afro-Seminole (2) 3. names question 4. Yankee 5. Naming after Presidents 6. Offensive terms (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 21:32:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Forty-eleven When I grew up in the south end of Louisville (in the 50s) 40-11 was an indeterminate number, but enough to note, a worthy amount. I haven't heard it since leaving Louisville in my rearview mirror. I have since spent time in NC, NY, WI, MI and a couple of other places, but they didn't have 40-11. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 20:09:18 PDT From: John Baugh John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET Subject: Re: Afro-Seminole REPLY TO 10/20/94 03:50 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society": Afro-Seminole For Audry Wright: Ian Hancock at the Ling. Dept. of the Univ. of Texas at Austin has done a lot of work on this topic. He can be reached at 512) 471-1701. He should be able to provide additional sources. John Baugh To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 22:39:27 -0500 From: Nancy Harwood harwood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TENET.EDU Subject: Re: names question When my father was born, in March, 1913, my grandfather named him Woodrow Wilson Davis, and that is the name that went on his birth certificate. He apparently had not consulted my grandmother about this, and she was *not* happy...said she did not intend to have any child of hers named Woodrow Wilson...they compromised and gave Daddy his paternal grandmother's maiden name for a middle name...so he was Woodrow Grayson Davis instead of Woodrow Wilson. Incidentally, he stopped using Woodrow before he was out of grade school, switched the order of the names, and went by Grayson for the rest of his life. -----Nancy Harwood----------------------------------------------------------- harwood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tenet.edu News is *not* more important than breakfast. But e-mail might be. --Mic Kaczmarczik ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 23:14:22 -0400 From: Claudio Salvucci CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM Subject: Re: Yankee Regarding the etymology of "yankee", someone mentioned that it was a term for the Dutch, which is confirmed in some dictionaries. However, there are quite a few 19th century scholars who derive it from an Algonquian (Lenape) attempt to pronounce "English" (The actual Algonquian form given is "Yengwe", later anglicized to "Yankee". I don't know if modern etymological studies have disproved this, but so goes the theory in the 1800's (i think by Rev. John Heckewelder) Claudio R. Salvucci csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Oct 1994 23:47:27 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Naming after Presidents I was refering to my grandfather, Andrew Jackson Coker, not the president. I just thought it funny that somebody with first and middle names Andrew Jackson married a Cherokee. That's all. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 06:12:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: Offensive terms # Since it was used a while back in this discussion, let me # register my offense at "The War of Northern Aggression,:" y'all. # # David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH A few years ago, while exploring back roads along the bluffs overlooking the Mississippi in southwestern Wisconsin, I found a cemetery with graves going back to the mid-19th century. Near the back were a few headstones dated 1861, with inscriptions indicating that the young men buried there had died in the "Infamous Southern Rebellion". So there. "Yankee", by the way, is definitely a negative term in Waycross, GA, where I'm living now -- I've even seen bumper stickers saying "I had [!] rather be dead than be a Yankee." But natives have no qualms about using it openly; in fact, I hear "Are you a Yankee?" several times a week, not to mention constant references to Yankees "coming down here and telling us how to live our lives". I don't know what this says about Southern manners. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 08:15:32 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven When I grew up in the south end of Louisville (in the 50s) 40-11 was an indeterminate number, but enough to note, a worthy amount. I haven't heard it since leaving Louisville in my rearview mirror. I have since spent time in NC, NY, WI, MI and a couple of other places, but they didn't have 40-11. Kind of like _umpteen_ but not as much as _a zillion_? Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 09:40:51 -0700 From: Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEACCD.CTC.EDU Subject: Re: Afro-Seminole Thanks much for the reference. Recently, Ian Hancock's name has been recommended to me for several different projects I have been involved in. I am definitely contacting that man. Thanks Audrey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:25:50 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven re forty-eleven: Take a look at DARE, where quotes go back to 1860. The phrase seems pretty widely scattered; I know it from the West too. Though some of the quotes spell it forty-eleven, I'll bet the folks who use it always say forty-leven. Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:45:56 EST From: "Betty S. Phillips" EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ROOT.INDSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive terms I sympathize with David Johns and his encounters with the term "Yankee". My mother, from Wisconsin, married my native-Georgian father in 1945, and Waycross was her first point of entry into the South. She never did find any humor in her new relatives' "Damn Yankee" jokes. But as David's comment about how people show no embarrassment or hesitation about asking, "Are you a Yankee?" suggests, the resentment toward Northerners is really fairly shallow (in my experience). Certainly, I've known Northerners who assimilated fairly rapidly and painlessly into Southern life. Betty Phillips Dept. of English Indiana State U. Terre Haute, IN 47809 Date sent: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 06:12:00 EDT Send reply to: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS%UFPINE.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Offensive terms To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu # Since it was used a while back in this discussion, let me # register my offense at "The War of Northern Aggression,:" y'all. # # David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH A few years ago, while exploring back roads along the bluffs overlooking the Mississippi in southwestern Wisconsin, I found a cemetery with graves going back to the mid-19th century. Near the back were a few headstones dated 1861, with inscriptions indicating that the young men buried there had died in the "Infamous Southern Rebellion". So there. "Yankee", by the way, is definitely a negative term in Waycross, GA, where I'm living now -- I've even seen bumper stickers saying "I had [!] rather be dead than be a Yankee." But natives have no qualms about using it openly; in fact, I hear "Are you a Yankee?" several times a week, not to mention constant references to Yankees "coming down here and telling us how to live our lives". I don't know what this says about Southern manners. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 12:17:25 -0700 From: William Seaburg seaburg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven When I was growing up in the Seattle-Tacoma area in the 1950s, my older brother always used the phrase "A buck two-eighty" or "A buck three ninety" to specify an undetermined sum of money--sounds like a similar principle here. Bill Seaburg On Thu, 20 Oct 1994, SHANE J SALLEE wrote: I was wondering if anybody out there has ever heard of the expression forty-eleven. I used to live in Lexington, Kentucky and never heard of this until I moved up to Carter County, Kentucky. At first, I thought, "What the hell?" But now, it's become common place to me and I say all the time. For those of you who need a definition(Lori, my God, quit staring over my shoulder), forty-eleven is a number that is not defined. It can mean a few or very many things in a group. Anyway, before I was interrupted, I just wanted to see if this was common anyplace else other than here. Thanks a whole forty-eleven bunch, Shane Sallee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 15:24:52 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven For what it's worth, I heard, "a dollar three-eighty," both in Southern California and in the late 70s when I lived on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. Question (New Thread): Why do we, in Southern California, capitalize the word Southern? I have noticed that in northern California, the word northern is usually NOT capitalized. Any clues? Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Oct 1994 to 21 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 76 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Afro-Seminole 2. offending idiot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 10:06:55 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Afro-Seminole In Message Wed, 19 Oct 1994 23:42:21 -0700, Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seaccd.ctc.edu writes: Does anyone know of any sources which has as the content information about Afro-Seminole creole/dialect? Please get in touch with Professor Ian F. Hancock, Dept. of Linguistics, U. of Texas, Austin, TX 78712. His office number is 512-471-1701. He has written several papers on Brackettville Afro-Seminole and will gladly share some with you. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 10:34:50 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot In Message Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:56:23 -0700, Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ichips.intel.com writes: Sorry, Chuck, you just offended someone there by saying "Oriental!" One of the ridiculous aspects of "supposed racism", is that you are called a racist if you "don't keep" with the currently accepted term, or if you are not a member of the group you refer to. The example already given was niggers, oops, sorry, I mean negroes, no, wait a minute, coloreds, no, that's not right either, umm, Afro-Americans, oops, that was 60s, it's, uhh, blacks, yeah, no! it's become African Americans, yeah, you people, calling yourselves niggers! I am afraid you have trivialized the offense in Chuck's note. As well stated in David Muschell's reply, the offense derives in part from Chuck's grandparents naming their dog a racial/racist epithet. Once posted on the dam, not everybody new "Nigger" was used for a dog. Besides at the time the dog was named "Nigger," this term was not an accepted designation for Blacks or African Americans. Do you recall any time in the history of the USA when "Nigger" was an acceptable term for African Americans? I do not know that African Americans would be offended today if you described them as "black" (with or without a cap). While we might find it amusing that names for a particular ethnic group keep changing (and I take no offense at this), the particular incident at issue here is not so amusing (except perhaps in the privacy of our homes). I doubt that the reason the sign was removed had to do with being politically correct. There is more to the act than some may want to recognize. By the way, I was careful in telling Chuck "let the rest of us tell you what we think of your remarks" not "of you" (i.e., Chuck). What I thought was primarily that the remarks were insensitive, that he was careless in posting something that was bound to be interpreted diversely and perhaps differently from what he intended, that some of us may think he is racist. Chuck has been wise enough to apologize. I, among the people who were offended, accept the apology. But I find your trivialization of the issue ridiculous. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Oct 1994 to 22 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 323 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Forty-eleven (6) 2. no combines on the blacktop 3. forty-leven 4. "Look, Boris. Eez moose and elk!" 5. Distribution of positive "anymore" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 07:53:39 EDT From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Does 70-11 have anything to do with 7-11? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:02:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: no combines on the blacktop This morning I noticed the following sign on Lincoln Highway, the main drag thru DeKalb, Il. I offer it to the list not so much to ask but to share with other lovers of the mysterious uses of the English language a particularly beautiful example of something, though I'm not quite sure what. The sign reads: CONSTRUCTION TRANSPORTED IMPLEMENTS OF HUSBANDRY OVER 8FT 6IN WIDE PROHIBITED I'm not even sure what this means. My first reading is a quite literal 'Farm Implements which are themselves over 8ft 6in wide and are being transported, i.e., carried on flat bed trucks or the like are prohibited.' And yet, this is a sight rarely seen in this area. The 'Implements of Husbandry' are most often driven or pulled from one job to the next. This would make the reading something like: 'No farm implements over 8ft 6in wide permitted.' The only I have would be speculative: do you think anyone concerned would be able to correctly interpret the sign on first reading? Have you come across other examples of ponderous writing which most probably in this case originated in the brain of a Springfield bureaucrat rather than in that of a concerned farmer? Yours for greater pomposity, Edward Callary ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 11:50:52 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: forty-leven Shane - My grandparents and parents both used "forty-'leven" as a semi-joking reference to a lorge but undeterminate number. They were from Delaware and the Eastern Shore of Maryland, so it was certainly more widely distributed than Kentucky and Tennessee. Bob Lancaster SUNY emeritus. English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:42:31 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Forty-eleven "Does 70-ll have anything to do with 7-11?" Certainly pre-dates 7-11 for me. Typical usage "I've got seventy-'leven things to do this morning, so I can't have lunch with you, sorry." But could 7-11 stores have picked up on that association with 'busy-ness'? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:37:08 -0700 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven 7-11 connotes good luck, from shooting craps. Also, the stores were=20 originally open from 7 a.m. to 11 p.m., a revolutionary development in=20 retailing at the time. ******* On Sun, 23 Oct 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote: "Does 70-ll have anything to do with 7-11?" =20 Certainly pre-dates 7-11 for me. Typical usage "I've got seventy-'leven things to do this morning, so I can't have lunch with you, sorry." But could 7-11 stores have picked up on that association with 'busy-ness'? =20 =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= =00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00=00= 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wner-aapor50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.usc.edu Sun Oct 23 09:57:54 1994 Return-Path: owner-aapor50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.usc.edu Received: from VM.USC.EDU (vm.usc.edu [128.125.241.1]) =09by alnitak.usc.edu (8.6.8.1/8.6.4) with SMTP =09id JAA03413 for beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]alnitak.usc.edu ; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 09:57:51 -= 0700 Message-Id: 199410231657.JAA03413[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]alnitak.usc.edu Received: from VM.USC.EDU by VM.USC.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id = 4008; Sun, 23 Oct 94 10:00:29 PDT Received: from VM.USC.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCVM) by VM.USC.EDU (LMai= l V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 3678; Sun, 23 Oct 1994 10:00:29 -0700 Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 12:57:36 -0400 Reply-To: American Association for Public Opinion Research 50th AAPOR50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.usc.edu Sender: American Association for Public Opinion Research 50th AAPOR50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.usc.edu From: BLACKJS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Calling for papers in Cyberspace X-To: AAPOR50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm.usc.edu To: Multiple recipients of list AAPOR50 AAPOR50[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.usc.edu =20 Jim; =20 I think it's a great idea to call for Student Award papers on-line. The = more the merrier, and presumably, more papers means better quality. It's the = best kind of publicity for AAPOR. Besides, if we can't find students in cyberspace, where will we find them? =20 Before your post the Call for Papers, I hope you'll think about the implications. I think previous Conference Chairs will agree that the response to the Call for Papers from members is surprising in several way= s. Decent papers -- most on methodology -- easily fill the available slots,= so there's not much room for all those wonderful ideas your committee had fo= r organized sessions. You're left at the last moment trying to decide how = to squeeze everything you want on the program in. =20 There is a reluctance to reject papers from active members, many of whom count on presenting findings here. The solution lately has been to offer more concurrent sessions (6 or 7 instead of 3 or 4). This has implications for the nature of the program which you should consider (it's harder for attendees to get to al= l the papers that seem essential, there are fewer shared experiences, etc.) =20 What if you get many more papers from non-AAPOR members? What if the qua= lity from these new sources is really terrific? At first blush, that sounds wonderful. But for most members, AAPOR is the Conference, and many have = to present to attend. Are you willing to reject a lot of papers from regula= r attendees? Should most presenters be AAPOR members? Are you going to ma= ke the presenters from cyberspace join AAPOR in order to be on the program? = I have the impression that non-members are more likely to be no-shows. (Am= I mistaken, or have we had more no-shows recently?) =20 I've been wondering if there won't be a big increase in submissions this = year any way because such a large committee is talking to one another so regularly. I think the excitement is great, but I hope you have a strat= egy for handling an avalanche of submissions! Of course you're already experiencing time slot problems with the plenaries. Concurrent plenaries= are a major departure -- somehow it diminishes their importance. I'd be very surprised if Council were willing to change the time of the Business Meet= ing or to hold it at the same time as anything else. =20 Joan Black =20 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 11:02:48 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven I doubt there is any connect between 7-11 stores and 40-11, 70-11, etc. I don't have an address -- e-mail or snail-mail -- but, Southland Corporation owns 7-11 stores (along with Chief Auto Parts and a few others). You might try their public relations department of somethng like that Chuck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 18:53:05 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Forty-eleven Forty-eleven would certainly be more than 50. Yes, I heard that a bunch in Texas. Also sebmty-lebm. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 17:39:57 -0700 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven My wife, born in Wyoming, has used it all her life. She infected the children. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:17:06 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Look, Boris. Eez moose and elk!" On positive (non-polarity) 'anymore'... ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Someone with an OED will probably inform us that "anymore" has been used in this form by Chaucer, Shakespeare, Tenneson, Auden, and Nixon, first appearing in 1305. Say it ain't so. _______________ No, Jack, it ain't--as far as I can tell, which isn't very, since the OED (at least in my first edition version) doesn't see fit to consider 'anymore' a single lexeme, since it's evidently spelled as two words (even in its time ad- verbial use). But D. H. Lawrence does have Birkin admit "Suffering bores me any more". It's even cited in the Webster 3 entry for 'anymore', along with a citation from Betty Grable. That must have been a fun session for the lexi- cographer folks. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:42:39 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Distribution of positive "anymore" It's a lot broader than Pennsylvania and Ohio. There was quite a lively dis- cussion with many citations in the journal...yup, American Speech, although before most of us were members of the Society, back in the 20's and 30's. My impression is that it stretches almost coast-to-coast, rare in New England, but attested as far west as California (by immigrants from the Midwest?), and is more prevalent in rural than urban settings (e.g. Chicago vs. downstate Illinois). And then there's that citation I mentioned from "Women in Love", which makes one wonder whether it's found elsewhere in the motherland. "Needs washed", on the other hand, is I think largely (though someone will be sure to correct me) confined to Western Pennsylvania and adjacent regions. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Oct 1994 to 23 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 20 messages totalling 527 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Help Stats&Nicaragua 2. Forty-eleven (2) 3. Overweening expressions (2) 4. Q: Mllions of Cats (6) 5. more bang for the buck 6. Yankee Dime and Dutch Quarter (2) 7. bang and bhang 8. offending idiot (3) 9. Distribution of positive "anymore" (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 00:39:09 -0400 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: Help Stats&Nicaragua I have recently completed a research project on the social correlates of the variation of" you" subject pronouns in Nicaragua. The correlations that came out are quite unexpected, at least for me. It seems that in some social situations some social variables show a positive correlation for the usage of Usted, tu, AND vos, not more usage of one pronoun and less of another pronoun, as has been the case in other research that I've completed in Honduras and Colombia. For example, when speaking to male subordinates in the workplace, the more educated subjects used usted, vos, AND tu significantly more, hile less educated Ss used the three pronouns less. In the past studies it would be more like the Higher educated would use Usted more and Vos less, so the lesser educated Ss would use Usted less and Vos more. I hope this makes sense. I mean my dilema. If anyone out there can help me with the interpretatation of the statistics and/or the sociolinguistic situation in Nicaragua, I would be most appreciative. Thanks, Alberto Rey ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:37:56 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Forty-eleven Sebmty-lebm is just a variant of forty-lebm, not related to 7-11. On a recent trip I noticed lots of convenince stores named C-Store. I was told that these used to be 7-11 stores. I wonder whether the owner of C-Stores may be trying to change the way Americans refer to convenience stores. Anybody know about that? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:43:27 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Forty-eleven 7-11 stores used to be open from 7 to 11. Lotsa things have changed in 30-40 years. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:50:14 CST From: "Krahn, Al" AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU Subject: Overweening expressions Sometime in the late 40s I saw a sign behind a shoeshine stand in Stroudsburg PA that read something like this: Pedal habiliments aritistically lubricated and illuminated with ambidextrous facility for the infinitesimal remuneration of 25 cents. Below it was another sign: 10 cents ain't my price no more. My back is aching and my knees are sore. 15 cents is now my price. Gimme two bits and I'll do it twice. Shine, boy, shine. AKRA Albert E. Krahn E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU Division of Lib. Arts and Sciences Fax 414/297-7990 Milwaukee Area Technical College Ph (H) 414/476-4025 Milwaukee, WI 53233-1443 Ph (W) 414/297-6519 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Oct 1994 23:09:39 -0700 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Q: Mllions of Cats Hi: We (my wife and I) read to the wee ones each night. Tonight we read a book called "Millions of Cats" by Wanda Ga'g (ISBN 0-590-40612-4, Scholastics Inc,. 730 Broadway, New York, NY 10003 - 1928). Any way we have several questions: 1. Is the apostrophe in Ga'g a symbol indicating missing letters, as in can't (cannot) or don't (do not)? Or is it a glottal stop symbol commonly used iin many orthographies? Is it something else entirely? (The book is hand-lettered so I am sure it is not a diacritical mark over the a.) 2. The old man in the story "set out" instead of walking or something similar. Is this 1928 lingo? My 3-year-old didn't know what set out meant because we never use it. 3. The cats "quarreled" instead of fought. Again, no recognition of the word -- was it also more common in 1928? 4. Do cats eat grass? I thought they were carnivores, but I'm not a biologist -- of course, anybody on ADS-L probably isn't either. Anybody have any answers? We're baffled. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 05:53:31 EDT From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Overweening expressions From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX My favorite was in the men's room of the British Museum: CASUAL ABLUTIONS ONLY DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 08:36:14 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Q: Mllions of Cats 4. Do cats eat grass? I thought they were carnivores, but I'm not a biologist -- of course, anybody on ADS-L probably isn't either. Anybody have any answers? We're baffled. Chuck Coker Yes, they do eat grass in order to throw up a hair ball on your car or on the carpet that you just shampooed. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 13:39:25 CDT From: Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: more bang for the buck Cites for "bang" meaning sexual intercourse-- Warren Miller, The Cool World (Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1959), p. 29. James Baldwin, Another Country (New York: Dial Press, 1962), p. 273. Jack Kerouac, On the Road (New York: Viking Press, 1957), pp. 42-43. Farmer and Henley, Slang and Its Analogues, see bangster. David Maurer, American Speech (February 1935), pp. 10-29. Eric Partridge, Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English, Fourth Edition, 1951, see bang (3) pp. 31. "Speculation" I find no direct connection between "more bang for the buck" and the term "bang" meaning a drug or the result of taking drugs, but it might raise a connection for someone. Some relevant cites are-- John B. Gough, Sunlight and Shadow, At Home and Abroad (1881), p. 248. "'In other parts of the world,' says the London Times, 'may be seen the frown of the African when excited by rum, the contortions of Arabs under the influence of hashish, Malays furious from bang, Turks trembling under the effects of opium, . . . .'" Webster's Dictionary, 1884. Bang, n. a drug. Paul Robert-Beath, "More Crook Words," American Speech (December 1930) quoted from Colonel Charles G. Givens, "The Chatter of Guns," Saturday Evening Post (13 April 1929). Bang, n. A charge of dope. Also, Bangster, n. A dope fiend. The Confessions of a Stool Pigeon (Cincinnati, 1931), pp. 38-39. "The drug racket is the hardest of all of them to bust into for a shake-down. You can't get a rat to squeal, for they are all snow sniffers or are taking bangs, and a squeal means shutting off their supply. . . . It was while we were trimming the peddlers that one of my stools slipped me a tip on a guy who had a bunch of janes working the streets for him. . . . We picked one of them up who was banged to the ears." David Maurer, "Junker Lingo", American Speech (April 1933), p. 27. " The injection of dope is referred to as a bang in the arm or a shot in the arm." A. J. Pollock, The Underworld Speaks (San Francisco, 1935). Bang, a morphine injection. Bang, marihuana, hemp, hashish. Alfred R. Lidesmith, "The Argot of the Underworld Drug Addict," The Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern University School of Law, Chicago: July-August 1938), p. 264. "A Bang, or to Bang: An injection of drugs is often called a bang. To be banging up is to be giving oneself a shot. Also used as a synonym of kick, as in 'I got a whale of a bang out of the pipe.' Also for a small amount of drugs as in, 'Can you spare me a bang.'" T. A. Evenson, "I Attend A Marihuana Party," Shock (vol. 1, no. 1, p. 9: October 1941). "Two cigarette papers are used for each cigarette. First, because the rough sharp pieces of the weed penetrate the thin sheets, whereas two sheets provide sufficient strength. Second, two papers, well wetted, help retain the Marihuana oil. It is the oil that gives the Bang." Fortnight (vol. 5, no. 7, p. 12: 24 September 1948). "Marihuana . . . In India it is known as hashish, and is either smoked or drunk as an infusion with the colorful name of 'bhang'." Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Oct 1994 14:16:43 CDT From: Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Yankee Dime and Dutch Quarter Michael Montgomery mentioned Yankee Dime = a kiss. Related are Dutch Quarter and Dutch Nickel. DARE has Dutch nickel = hug or kiss; and Dutch quarter = kick another in the posterior. I have encountered the term Dutch quarter to mean a hug. Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 07:43:00 CDT From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Q: Mllions of Cats The cats you live with will appreciate oat grass. Tasty, easy to swallow, particularly effective. Quite pretty while growing in the container. Go to your farmer's coop, where you'll find a five yr supply of seed for a couple dollars. Put some potting soil in a casserole size container, scatter a scant handful of seed across the top, wet it down. Of course cats quarrel. Beth Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 07:47:00 CDT From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: bang and bhang Randy, The "bang" in the quote about furious Malays is a sp for *bhang*. Beth Simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 09:08:41 -0500 From: Shannon M Walbran swalbran[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PIPER.HAMLINE.EDU Subject: Re: Q: Mllions of Cats The question was re: Wanda Gag's accent mark on her last name. As it happens, this weekend was Oktoberfest in the extremely Germanic small town of New Ulm, Minnesota, known for (at least) two things: excellent family-owned brewery which produces Schell's beer (my recommendation would be Schmaltz's Alt, very dark) and the birthplace of Wanda Gag, author of _Millions of Cats_. I would like to hazard that the Gag family is Bohemian German, as were many of the settlers of New Ulm. I would also like to add that her father, Anton, was an artistic type whose primary patron was August Schell (brewery founder 2d generation -- they are now in their 5th generation). Apparently August supported Anton through some tough times; when Anton died an untimely and not wealthy death, his final words were "Now Wanda will finish what I have started." Good book, good beer, and a kick of an Oktoberfest. What more could you want? Shannon Walbran Hamline University St. Paul, Minnesota ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 10:17:58 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: Q: Mllions of Cats Being from New Ulm, the birthplace of Wanda Gag (no apostrophe), and knowing several Gags who still live there, there is no apostrophe. I don't know if the German name originally had an umlaut. The "a" is pronounced like the 'a' in father - at least the midwestern way I say father. ALso, set out may be a midwestern thing, too. I still hear "we set out on a trip" or "I set out to do something". I wonder if it has its roots in German. In New Ulm folks still refer to hair in the plural - e.g. my hair are dirty. I have to wash them. That originates from the German where hair is a plural noun. Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 10:07:28 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Q: Mllions of Cats "to set out to" also used in Idaho. It seems to mean "to embark on a course of action", and the action can be physical or verbal ("He set out to explain how he built that dam") ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 13:55:18 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: offending idiot Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 10:34:50 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU In Message Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:56:23 -0700, Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ichips.intel.com writes about frivolous changing of "acceptable" names for non-whites. I am afraid you have trivialized the offense in Chuck's note. As well stated in David Muschell's reply, the offense derives in part from Chuck's grandparents naming their dog a racial/racist epithet. Once posted on the dam, not everybody new "Nigger" was used for a dog. Granted. Besides at the time the dog was named "Nigger," this term was not an accepted designation for Blacks or African Americans. Do you recall any time in the history of the USA when "Nigger" was an acceptable term for African Americans? Sure. It's an acceptable term now, in many quarters. For myself, I do not and would never use it, and cringe when I do hear it used. I will admit that it's not acceptable now among the media and universities, but I know that if many of the readers of this list went off-campus, they would find lots of people using it, especially in the South. For some, there is a negative element, and for others, it's simply the term they've used all they're lives. Who has the right to sit in judgment? I do not know that African Americans would be offended today if you described them as "black" (with or without a cap). I don't get the "cap" reference. And how about negro? While we might find it amusing that names for a particular ethnic group keep changing (and I take no offense at this), the particular incident at issue here is not so amusing (except perhaps in the privacy of our homes). So I can laugh at home, but not in public? Don't ask, don't tell? I doubt that the reason the sign was removed had to do with being politically correct. There is more to the act than some may want to recognize. Chuck has been wise enough to apologize. I, among the people who were offended, accept the apology. But I find your trivialization of the issue ridiculous. All right, then let me use another example having nothing to do with race: idiot, moron, half-wit, mentally retarded, developmentally disabled, special, mentally challenged. Nothing trivial, only individual words. See the connection? =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation (503) 696-4331 Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 15:52:28 +2157800 From: Karen Wood SLAINTE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LUST.BITNET Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" On Mon, 24 Oct 1994, Larry Horn wrote: Oops. I seem to have misposted this response to the threads on 'anymore' and 'needs washed' to the wrong list. The reference below to 'that citation [from] Women in Love' was to a line Lawrence gives to Birkin that's cited (along with an attribution to Betty Grable) in the Webster III entry for 'anymore': "Suffering bores me any more." ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- It's a lot broader than Pennsylvania and Ohio. There was quite a lively dis- cussion with many citations in American Speech during the '20s-'30s. My impression is that it stretches almost coast-to-coast, rare in New England, but attested as far west as California (by immigrants from the Midwest?), and is more prevalent in rural than urban settings (e.g. Chicago vs. downstate Illinois). And then there's that citation I mentioned from "Women in Love", which makes one wonder whether it's found elsewhere in the motherland. "Needs washed", on the other hand, is I think largely (though someone will be sure to correct me) confined to Western Pennsylvania and adjacent regions. Larry I suppose I should have said in the first place that I'm not just from penna, but indeed, from Western Penna, and that's really the only place I've heard the "needs washed" well really "needs warshed" phrase, except from a few relocated Pittsburghers (which incidentally is usually pronounced "picksburgh". But I always to my knowledge used only the negative "anymore" until I started hanging around with Iowans. I suppose I've become accustomed to the positive "anymore", but the hanging "with" (as in "Do you wanna come with?" of Minn/Wisc fame I think) still makes me do a double take. Has that one spread beyond the northern midwest or have I just missed it? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 17:54:26 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Yankee Dime and Dutch Quarter May I nominate Randy Roberts as the Actual Scholar of the Week. Bravo! Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 21:32:23 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: offending idiot Most ADS-L readers probably don't need the reference, but in 1991 American Speech ran two excellent articles on the subject of terms of group self-reference by African Americans (or "American Slave Descendants" in Baugh's neutral term), by Geneva Smitherman and John Baugh. Baugh's article gives a detailed breakdown of preferences by age among ASD for such terms as "black, colored, negro, nigger" etc. It's quite evident from this that "nigger" is not a neutral term for anyone in the African American community today. As a Yankee-born (NYC, 1959) but Southern-bred (Virginia in 1690 was as far north as my mother's family line lived, and mostly in Georgia since) WM who has lived about equally in the South and Northeast, I don't know a single white Southerner who doesn't realize that "nigger" is an offensive term when used by whites. I don't think linguists have much business making excuses for the use of offensive terms, especially when the research on attitudes is so clear-cut. And by the way, I would hate to see this list be a place where "Southern" is equated with "racist" casually and thoughtlessly, as it so often is in discourse among non-Southerners and foreigners. White Southerners have a lot of history to be ashamed of, and most of us are, but there's a tremendous anti-Southern prejudice out there too which most Yankees remain comfortably ignorant of and complacent about... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 18:31:27 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot I know I started the "offending idiot" thing with my apology to anyone I might have offended, but what happened to "offending idioms" that were being posted. I was rather enjoying them (in the privacy of my own home). IMHO, half the problem with these terms are that *I* can talk about my family, but *YOU* can't, hence African-Americans using the term "nigger" for example, while "white" people cannot. == FOR EXAMPLE -- not meaning to offend anyone. Personally, I enjoy "white" people jokes -- usually I would be classified "white" as I don't look that American Indian -- I take jokes for what they are, jokes. If I can't laugh at myself, I certainly have no business laughing at others. I know that the jokes are offensive to others, however. I don't find "Indian" jokes as funny as "white" jokes, although I have 3 "white" grandparents and 1 "Indian" grandparent. (The two that met at Boulder Dam were both white, BTW.) I find many things humorous, but I know I am more "sensitive" to anything said about Indians, no matter who says them. I find white people on the reservations to be offensive (without knowng so) much of the time (see my genealogy is pror sentence) -- in ALL cases, before becoming offended, CONSIDER the source! Somebody that was educated -- as I assume to be the case with those on the list -- offends me less often that some who is uneducated, even though they can say exactly the same thing to me. Maybe this is human nature, or maybe my own quirk, but I take the educated person's remark as a joke, and the uneducated person's as bigotry. 'course what's said my influence whether I or not I consider a person educated. Just another 2 cents worth . . . now, back in my cage. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 22:09:09 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" Well, I TRIED to send my reply to Karen's message directly to her at the above address, but my mailer told me that LUST was an unknown node, suggesting such sublimations as 'CUSB', 'HUSC', 'MUSC', and 'TUSK'. Talk about safe sex... Anyway, what I was going to say to her and will perforce announce to one and all is that a propos of intransitive (or adverbial) 'with', Safire's "On Language" column yesterday in the New York Times Magazine (p. 20) presented this as a trend sweeping the nation. He speculates a bit about possible Germanic sources, citing our own John Algeo ("the neo-linguistic observer for American Speech") and then suggesting that we view object-less 'with' as an insance of "what the great Danish grammarian Otto Jesperson called 'drift'". I thought it was JespersEn. And in fact, I REALLY thought it was Sapir. Of course, it's all the same to them anymore; after all, you can't take it with. --Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1994 to 24 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 33 messages totalling 939 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Offending idiot 2. offending idiot (4) 3. P.S. re Offending Idioms (4) 4. offensiveness (2) 5. Distribution of positive "anymore" (3) 6. That word in the South (3) 7. go/come with (4) 8. Offensive Terms and Gender? 9. thanks for stopping! (2) 10. Distribution of positive "an 11. 40-11 12. Euphemisms 13. Consistency of Usage 14. Is "conservative" a slander word? 15. Does conservative - country club? 16. offending idioms (2) 17. This needs listened to ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 24 Oct 1994 21:17:55 PDT From: John Baugh John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET Subject: Offending idiot REPLY TO 10/24/94 19:22 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society": Re: offending idiot I wanted to thank Peter Patrick for elevating the discussion regarding terms that are offfensive to African Americans. Having lived in the North and South (East and West) I share his concern that white Southerners not be equated with "racists." Many white Southerners are among the most progressive people I have ever met (several are active ADSers). Again, my gratitude to those who have maintained the intellectual high road on this sensitive topic. John Baugh To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET cc: RICKFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 06:56:48 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot Northeast, I don't know a single white Southerner who doesn't realize that "nigger" is an offensive term when used by whites. I don't think Nor do I. And I will add, in response to the comment by somebody else that "nigger" is used "especially in the South," that in my 51 years of living in the South I have never heard anybody use the word -- except to talk about the fact that it is an offensive term. I'm not, of course, saying that nobody in the South uses or has used the term. I'm simply saying that enough people don't use it that I've managed to lead a pretty normal life for all these years without bumping into the Southerners who do use it. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 08:28:52 EDT From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot In response to Roger Vanderveen's reply to Salikoko Mufwene, there would seem to be more explanation of the term "trivialization." For me, offending idioms have huge distinctions of offense: a "dunce" was once very mocking of the followers of John Duns Scotus and its later translation as a term for any ignorant person gave it lasting negativity; however a "guy," which was once a derogatory term for traitorous individuals (from Guy Fawkes--it's a long story), lost negative weight as history blurred a brief incident of rebellion. "Nigger," however, has hundreds of years of corrosive racism attached to it as it jumped from its Spanish origin into English. Its application to a large group who happened to have extra melanin in their skin carried the notion of chattel, slave, one to be bought and sold as a mule in the marketplace. We, who feel enlightened, must frown in amazement at the fact that our Civil Rights Movement barely edged through the 1960's, that apartheid only now has seen its demise. The offending word is so un-trivial that anecdotes about dogs given the appellation with tones of "I don't understand what the big deal was" cause not knee-jerk reactions, but a more heart-wrenching sense that this horrendous history of the term has somehow been diminished to a kind of fluff that we can laugh about. These levels of distinction in offending idioms make some terms so connected to past wickedness that they cannot be spoken of without that connection in mind. So, while "Indian" may offend and "Native American" is now "politically correct" (or maybe humanly correct), we know that the Western moniker was given under the mistaken assumption that we "white folk" had somehow reached the isles of India and thus its offense bears less of a load on the human consciousness. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 07:27:04 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: P.S. re Offending Idioms I was sitting here thinking about my previous posting, the one saying that I'd never heard anybody use the word "nigger," when it occurred to me that that's not entirely accurate. I did hear the expression "nigger rig" when I was a small child. And I remember being surprised when I realized that it was an offensive expression -- that the word "nigger" was part of it. Keep in mind that I was very young at the time (and that "nigger" was not a word in my active vocabulary). When I heard "nigger rig," I heard it as one long, funny-sounding verb: niggerrig. I can't remember now exactly how I discovered "nigger" in it. I think maybe I repeated the word at home and my mother pointed out to me what I was saying. Presumably I would have figured it out myself sooner or later, but this brings up a question that I think was implicit in something I said earlier in this discussion. I wonder how many offensive idioms are kept alive by people who don't realize what they're saying. I also remember hearing the expression "jew down" and not associating it with Judaism. The language is full of homonyms. Although these two examples are of expressions that are pretty easy to figure out if you're over eight years old, I wonder how many other expressions are floating around out there that are based on insults not so easily recognizable. And does that make them less offensive? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 08:59:32 EDT From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot Northeast, I don't know a single white Southerner who doesn't realize that "nigger" is an offensive term when used by whites. I don't think Nor do I. And I will add, in response to the comment by somebody else that "nigger" is used "especially in the South," that in my 51 years of living in the South I have never heard anybody use the word -- except to talk about the fact that it is an offensive term. I'm not, of course, saying that nobody in the South uses or has used the term. I'm simply saying that enough people don't use it that I've managed to lead a pretty normal life for all these years without bumping into the Southerners who do use it. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Having been privy to plenty of "inner circle" discussions by "good ole boy" groups of small town elites here in the South, I must say the term was (is) widely used and with the offensive intent of a majority's fear of a less-than-equal group gaining control (ie. "if we let that nigger get elected sheriff, the whole county'll go to hell"). The use has gone further underground now, but is still prevalent, though with the election of that African American law enforcement officer and hades not appearing, the "either-or" fallacy became more apparent to the large, decent group of whites who sometimes sat timidly on the fringes of those circles, not voicing dismay (myself included) at the bigotry, using their votes instead. Having gone from the journalistic endeavors of those days to the more insulated towers of academe, I have not heard the term ever mentioned by students or colleagues, except in its disparagement. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: offensiveness after months of no epithets on the ads list, i unsubscribed for a couple of weeks while i was away, and returned to find a string i am most interested in, already in progress. my name ain't murphy fer nuthin. i'm interested in decisions re: offensiveness in dictionaries (not sure how this string got started) and noted with alarm that the buro van die woordesboek van die afrikaanse taal has decided not to define any "racially offensive" terms. this troubles me greatly--it seems that the way some south african dictionaries are dealing with the legacy of apartheid is to try to shove some of its linguistic ugliness under the rug. what also troubles me is the special status given to racial epithets in dictionaries and in popular thought. while something such as "nigger" or, in SA, "kaffir" is so unspeakable that some dictionaries won't include them, it's not clear to me that they are as important to their supposed referents as they are to us whiteys. for instance, i asked my assistant if it unnerved him to have to type definitions of words like "kaffir" and "darkey" into a database for me, and he said "no, these words are used so much they don't mean anything." (similarly, i have another friend who likes to introduce himself to white people as "hi, i'm a kaffir, but i'm a FIRST CLASS CITIZEN." so, now some of his friends, of all ethnic backgrounds, refer to him as "hey, kaffir." the word is reclaimed and its affect diffused quite easily.) now, consider the excruciating rates of suicide among gay teenagers, and wonder how many of those were brought on by one too many taunts of "sissy" or "fag" or "bulldagger." yet these terms (and related ones, e.g., moffie and lettie in SA) are not treated with the hands- off attitude that racial epithets are. i think the dictionary policies come down to not "what's the right thing to do", but "what will we get in trouble for"? a white person can't get away with 'When i called you a nigger, i was only kidding' but a straight person can get away with "i was just joshing when i called you a faggot, can't you take a joke?" or a man can get away with "so, i called you a 'broad', don't get uptight!" i don't think this has a lot to do with the seriousness of the offense, but with the acceptability of different kinds of prejudices. while racist prejudices are deeply ingrained in white people, most of us know they are wrong, or feel guilty about them, or are loathe to admit them. but where only "extremists" say things like "black people are intellectually or morally inferior to whites" (though, certainly, more people think it, but would never admit to it in liberal company), it is not, at this stage, shameful for people to say "women should stay at home" or "gay people are perverse." the epithets used against these people are at least as harmful to their addressees as racial terms, but social mores determine who is ok to offend and who is not. none of this is meant to say that racist terms aren't offensive or harmful--just that they're not the only game in town and context is everything. lynne murphy ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 10:00:38 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" actually, you can take it with: may I suggest a few grains of salt? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 09:54:01 EST From: "Beverly S. Hartford" HARTFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" both 'needs Xed' and postive 'anymore' are native to southern Indiana. I first heard them when I moved here to Bloomington. So we know it's in the Ohio valley. I've heard the "come with" from northern Indiana folk. (I'm from Maine, so they're all strange to me) Bev Hartford ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:26:41 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: That word in the South I have followd with great interest the discussion of offending words, particularly the recent items on who uses n___ in the south. The word is alive and well among the upper-middle-class speakers who belong to or hang around Cherokee Country Club in Knoxville, TN. Such facts are among the many reasons that I was not certain I could live in Knoxville when I first moved here. I used to describe it as the most socially and politically conservative place I had ever lived. Obviously, "conservative" is a euphemism. But let me assure you that the word is alive and well among many speakers who use it with full knowledge of its offensiveness and with every intention of being offensive. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:38:53 -0400 From: Steve Harris etnibsd!vsh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: P.S. re Offending Idioms With regard to racially offensive phrases, and their place within the language, here are two more examples using "nigger". 1. "Nigger work": difficult and unpleasant work, work which one would prefer not to do (e.g., pick and shovel work on a hot and humid day). The "nigger" in "nigger work" connotes powerlessness: anyone with power would find a way to make somebody else do the work. 2. My college roommate, who grew up in Tennessee, had a childhood pal who: "attached a 'nigger knob' to his bicycle handlebar". Referring to the little hand knob that some people attach to their car steering wheel. Here, I think, there is a connotation of stupidity. Though I would never use these phrases in public, as I run them through my mind, I confess I find them (1) descriptive and (2) humorous. The phrases _are_ insensitive and demeaning; nevertheless, in a literary context, each describes in a concise and vivid way, both an activity and the mindset of the individual using the phrase. -- Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:18:35 EDT From: DIANE M GARDNER dmgard01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: go/come with I was transplanted from Michigan to Kentucky about twelve years ago and have been using some expressions that have puzzled my Kentucky friends ever since. I'm always telling people "I want to come (or go) with" or asking "Do you want to come with?" The only other people I've heard use these expressions is my immediate family; not even our friends in Michigan recognize the term (if it helps, my father is from northern Illinois and my mother was raised in northern Maine.) Does anyone know where we picked this up at? Thanks, Diane G. Morehead State ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:07:22 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Offensive Terms and Gender? Before you start wondering how I seem to be replying to a posting you didn't see, let me point out that this was a direct note to me from Peter Patrick. I'm replying on the list because I thought that others might also find the question of offensive terms and gender interesting and because this was Peter's last paragraph in the note to me: Don't know why I didn't post this to the group-- if you want to continue it, you can forward (I don't know how to once I've begun the message in this mail system!). Thanks again, --peter Natalie, I appreciated your message about use of "nigger" in the South. I have to admit I was a bit shocked, though, that you'd _never_ come across the derogatory use, and I'm wondering if it has something to do I've been thinking about it off and on all morning, wondering if I have heard "nigger" in my life but have managed to block it out of my memory since I am always quite annoyed when people equate Southernness and racism (which is an erroneous equation -- and thank you, John Baugh, for saying so). At lunch today I was talking with a colleague originally from North Carolina but who has lived in Mississippi for the past twenty- five years and asked her whether she had ever heard "nigger" used outside of movies or discussions about the term. She said no. When I told her why I was asking, she added, "Face it. You and I don't run around with the kind of people who would use that word." Since she had to leave for class then, we didn't continue the conversation -- as in defining "the kind of people who would use that word." with gendered patterns of audience design. Like David Muschett, I too (despite my lack of any strong Southern accent-- or perhaps because of it, in the sense of an "outsider" being baited?) have been on the fringes of many exchanges where it was used among white Southerners. But mostly men, and mostly without women participating: so I wonder if there's an expectation of censoriousness by Southern women, a version of the usual projection of virtue and morality onto women (with all the negative consequences THAT imposes!), so that in the default case female hearers are expected to disapprove of the term. I certainly know my own mother would have smacked me across the room if I had ever used it in front of her! Don't know why I didn't post this to the group-- if you want to continue it, you can forward (I don't know how to once I've begun the message in this mail system!). Thanks again, --peter --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:47:36 -0700 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: That word in the South Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 11:26:41 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB%UTKVX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu I have followd with great interest the discussion of offending words, particularly the recent items on who uses n___ in the south. The word is alive and well among the upper-middle-class speakers who belong to or hang around Cherokee Country Club in Knoxville, TN. That's unfortunate, since, as you state below, they do use it derogatorily. Such facts are among the many reasons that I was not certain I could live in Knoxville when I first moved here. I used to describe it as the most socially and politically conservative place I had ever lived. Obviously, "conservative" is a euphemism. Obvious from your context, yes. Do you always use it as a euphemism for bigoted? Or do you use it in general to slander conservatives? And do you in general lump conservatives in with country clubs? But let me assure you that the word is alive and well among many speakers who use it with full knowledge of its offensiveness and with every intention of being offensive. =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation (503) 696-4331 Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 14:57:54 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: thanks for stopping! The "Go/come with" questions reminded me of something I encountered about 12 years ago. After college at UGA, I lived in Chapel Hill Nc for a while and canvassed for ACORN all over central Carolina, working out of Durham and going door-to-door to raise money (middle-class and poorer folks) and organize (mostly poorer folks). Over and over people would say to me at the end of an interaction (andd this was whether they gave me money or not-- unless they were really upset at me), "Thanks for stopping." [actually, /stapIn/] The first few times I wondered "stopping what?" and thought maybe they'd left off the "in", or "by". Finally I just decided it was a Carolina thing. Is this usage customary elsewhere? Do others from the region know it? Again, this wasn't just in the big Triangle towns, but also in Henderson, Oxford, Gray, working-class black neighborhoods in Greensboro, etc. I don't hear it anymore now that I'm in DC. But then this is not, contrary to popular opinion, a Southern town (even though NC is a primary source of immigration, esp. African American), and I don't knock on doors much anymore... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 14:58:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "an I was not surprised to hear Bev Hartford's characterization of positive anymore as native to southern Indiana (I am a native user), but I was very much surprised to hear her characterize need X-ed as common in that region. Admittedly, I am from farther south (Louisville), but my first encounter with need X-ed was one of amazement; I thought it was non-native English (let alone extra-regional). Perhaps it has spread (although certainly not to southernmost Indiana which I visit regularly). I would have predicted that need X-ed forms, if in Indiana at all, would have been central to north and generally on the east side of the state. The form for non-native speakers of it is so remarkable that a few hearings may stick with one. Perhaps that is what happened to Beverly in Bloomington. Best, Dennis Preston ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:03:33 EDT From: BRENT D HUTCHINSON bdhutc01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: 40-11 All my life I have heard the expression "40-11" as well. I too am from eastern Kentucky, and I simply assumed that the expression was local. However, I have spent a considerable amount of time on coastal South Carolina and heard the same expression there, meaning an undeterminable (but large) quantity. Is this expression concentrated in the Eastern U.S., or is it used nationwide? Thanks, Brent H.-Morehead State ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 13:37:40 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot In Message Mon, 24 Oct 1994 21:32:23 -0400, PPATRICK%GUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: Most ADS-L readers probably don't need the reference, but in 1991 American Speech ran two excellent articles on the subject of terms of group self-reference by African Americans (or "American Slave Descendants" in Baugh's neutral term), by Geneva Smitherman and John Baugh. Baugh's article gives a detailed breakdown of preferences by age among ASD for such terms as "black, colored, negro, nigger" etc. It's quite evident from this that "nigger" is not a neutral term for anyone in the African American community today. Thanks, Peter, for adding the references to the discussion. The article by Geneva Smitherman actually provides a chronology of the terms. On p. 118 (AS 66, 1991), she observes that "nigger" was a term used by "Europeans in Colonioal America" as a racial label, not as an epithet, to refer to African Americans "when the enslavement status was unknown, or where there was occasion to use a collective term for all Africans [in North America?]." In the next paragraph (second on the same page, she says that the most frequently used label by Africans to refer to themselves was "African." Having lived in the South for 10 years with African-American and White American friends, I have a hard time contextualizing Roger Vanderveen's claim that the term "Nigger" is acceptable and used by lots of people in the South. As this discussion began, I didn't question that it was used. I admitted that it is used among African Americans with special pragmatic effect. So, some African Americans insult or tease one another using the term "Nigger." I don't think it as a neutral term. My wife is AA and she takes serious offense at the term. One of her aunts often uses it to put down other AAs she despises, which iritates my wife a lot. I suppose Roger will have to be more specific in his claim. On the other hand, Chuck Coker sounds accurate in describing some of the pragmatic constraints on the usage of such epithets. I hate to use this addition to Peter's note as a way of replying to some parts of Roger's intervention. What one says in the privacy of their home is more or less like what one thinks in the privacy of their minds. There are things that are considered tasteless by others which some of us may like. Everybody does not like everybody, and that's fine though not ideal; but that does not mean that society allows them to abuse or offend everybody they do not like. Why should I even bother discussing this anyway? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: go/come with leaving out the object in "go/come with" is typical of northern illinois and other parts of the midwest, and presumed by many to be from germanic influence. the phenomenon is much more widespread here in south african english, where, e.g., i could offer you lunch and ask "have you had?" lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 15:45:20 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: go/come with northern Maine.) Does anyone know where we picked this up at? German? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:27:37 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Euphemisms Roger Vanderveen raises several intersting issues in his series of Qs to me in response to my item about "that word in the south." I shall respond to them individually. First: can any word be a euphemism apart from being a euphemism in its context? That question would never have occurred to me, since I think that words always derive their meanings from the c contexts in which they occur. The word "conservative" cannot possibly be a euphemism, it seems to me, apart from the way it is being used ia a specific context. But I think that the same thing is true of any other content word. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 14:37:22 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" I heard anymore from my first wife, who grew up in Mechanicsburg PA, and from a fellowworker who went to school at the University of Ohio (not sure where raised.) Both of them used it rarely. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:33:44 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Consistency of Usage In response to my comment about the use of "that word" in Knoxville, Roger Vanderveen asked whether I "always use [conservative] as a euphemism for bigoted." Well, I don't know whether I do or not. I suspect that I sometimes use it to mean "Republican" and sometimes use it to mean "non- liberal" or "non-Liberal." I am certain that I use it to describe Wm Buckley who m I do not think to be bigoted. But the interesting question here, I think, is tha t about consistency of usage. Do speakers in general use euphemisms in highlyy predictable ways such that that are highly restricted in meaning? It seems to me that if a speaker always used the word "conservtive" as a synonym for, say, "bigoted," that would be an interesting pattern. I don't know whether speakers do that or not, but would be interesting to know if anyone has examined that question. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:37:08 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Is "conservative" a slander word? In response to my post about the use of "that word" in KNoxville, Roger Vanderveen asked whether I use it [the word "conservative"] "in general to slander conservatives." ?!? I find it astonishing that one might be taken to be "slandering" conservatives by calling them conservatives. Can one slander someone by calling by the label that rightfully belongs to them? Or has the word "conservative" become non-PC without my noticing that that has happened? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:41:41 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Does conservative - country club? Finally, I was aked by Roger Vanderveen (in response to my note about Knoxville usage of "that word") whether I "in general lump conservatives in with country clubs." I have quite limited experience of country clubs, and so I want to reiterate that my observation was limited to denizens of Cherokee Country Club in Knoxville, TN. I certainly associate country clubs more with Republicans (one sense of conservative in my vocabulary) than with Democrats and more with political/social conservatives than political/social liberals. Other than that, I also associate CCs with the corporate world more than the non-corporate world. I am not certain what the real question is here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:33:21 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offensiveness In Message Tue, 25 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL, "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za writes: i'm interested in decisions re: offensiveness in dictionaries (not sure how this string got started) and noted with alarm that the buro van die woordesboek van die afrikaanse taal has decided not to define any "racially offensive" terms. this troubles me greatly--it seems that the way some south african dictionaries are dealing with the legacy of apartheid is to try to shove some of its linguistic ugliness under the rug. In my opinion, no offensive term is less abusive than any other. If a person resents any term used in reference to them, then users of the term should discontinue using it. It is a simple matter of civility. On the other hand, I deplore the decision of the Buro van die Wordesboek, because I consider a dictionary as a useful source of various source of information about dictionaries. I would find a dictionary more useful if it could also help me tell which particular terms are likely to offend (and under what conditions). What's the point of omitting racist terms if they are used anyway and people who do not know the connotations of particular terms would not have a way of checking why they may have offended somebody or failed to react in some appropriate way to the offensive speaker? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:00:30 EDT From: LISA A BRAMEL labram01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms I have read over most of the messages referring to idioms, many exploring more serious ones, so i'd like to change to a lighter note. What about 'beat you like a red-headed step child' or 'red on a head like a peter on a poodle.' There are many others, besides the two I have mentioned but which I have drawn a mental blank on. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:38:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: thanks for stopping! Thanks for stopping (with no in or by) was OK in Louisville in the 40s and 50s (and is live and well in my speech). Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:30:49 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET Subject: Re: That word in the South I have been trying to limit e-mail time because of other commitments, but after reading the racial epithet exchange, I found myself composing a contribution in my head, and I don't think it will be exorcised from my mind until it gets said. So... All my life I have been very sensitive to race issues. I grew up in a very liberal home with parents who, at an earlier age, passionately defended the cause of racial equality. As a kid, I was taken to meetings and marches. I remember meeting Martin Luther King when I was about 9 or 10 and he was just beginning to gain national prominence (I stood at his elbow and listened while he was engaged in a conversation; he made a wide gesturing motion and gave me a solid knock in the head; the apostle of non violence turned to apologize profusely; I recall nothing of what Dr. King said but recall well this little incident - such is the memory of a ten-year-old.) My parents tried to live out their convictions by staying on in our neighborhood after a black family moved in down the block and all other whites fled in a panic (this was Maywood, a near west Chicago suburb). So in the space of about a year, all my friends changed from white to black. There was no racism among most of us kids. I remember black kids and white kids (including me) having crushes on each other and this was not considered strange by anyone. But I do remember the day I went cross town to visit a white friend and he used the word _nigger_. I verbalized my shock. He said that's what his dad used. Things changed as we got older. The little black girl who I had a crush on (Sandra) and who was one of the brightest kids in the class became morose and pessimistic. So did others. Later, one kid, Fred Hampton, a year older than me, became president of the Chicago chapter of the Black Panthers and was shot dead as he slept during a raid by the Chicago police. However, we had left Maywood by then. My parents idealism was sorely tried on the night that a rock came crashing through the back window into my father's face. Having moved to an all white neighborhood, Park Forest, my parents continued to work for integration of our new community, however. It is ironic that I now sit and write this message a stone's throw away from the spot where Gov. Wallace made his famous "stand in the schoolhouse door." I remember watching that scene with appropriate disgust when it was being broadcast into our living room back in my youth. I also remember my parents, and other liberals, attaching tremendous stigma to anyone or anything Southern, including drawl. I even pointed out to them, I recall, that this was inconsistent with their own views on ethnic prejudice. However, it was with some trepidation, I confess, that I came to interview at the University of Alabama. The ghosts of all that negative history would not leave my mind alone. My very first encounter with an Alabamian on Alabama soil just about reinforced all my fears and misgiving. This was the chauffeur who picked me up at the airport to bring me on campus. He started going on about "the niggers" and asking me if they were as bad elsewhere as they were here. Fortunately, this individual (who doesn't work here anymore) turned out to be very much the exception, not the rule. Even so, I must concur with Bethany that the pejorative use of _nigger_ is very much alive in the South. Sometimes it is couched in an expression: like when my sweet, lovable, gentile and, yes, racist, neighbor lady (may her soul rest in peace) reproved me for "working like a nigger" when I labored in our yard under the hot midday sun. I spend more time in the Louisiana boonies, with my Cajun friends, than I do here in Alabama. There, _nigger_ is encountered with alarming frequency. It is a paradox (but an easy one to resolve) that the one Cajun fellow who could hardly open his mouth without uttering this word, was the same one who took the greatest offense at the thought that anyone should call him a _coonass_. In Cajun French (or Metropolitan for that matter) it is harder to determine intent because the _negro_/_nigger_ dichotomy never existed. In Louisiana it was always _neg'_ for both, though some now do say _les noirs_. In France, too, _negre_ is ambivalent. It can be a very scholarly adjective in the mouth of an Africanist, "la litterature negre," or a put- down as in the derisive term for bad French, "le petit-negre." Most people tend to avoid it. But anti-Black feeling among some French is strong, too. Once, while living in Aix-en-Provence, my wife and I invited an African friend over to our apartment. Our landlady lived across the hall. The next day she rebuked me for inviting a Black man in, and she was especially incensed about it because she was sure that I would never have dared so such a thing back in America. She knew because `she had seen the movies'. So the long and the short of it is that ethnic prejudice is ubiquitous. I have encountered it everywhere I have gone (including former socialist countries where it was supposed to have been wiped out but where gypsies were kicked off the busses I rode; well, we all know now that socialism in Eastern Europe only served to put ethnic hostility in the deep freeze). No region has a monopoly on it. Not the South or anywhere else. Living down here I am more sensitive than ever to the hypocrisy of a mass culture that derides every type of prejudice except that which is directed against Southerners (and I have gone on record against this in previous postings). Well, I have rambled long enough. But sometimes, in my own darker moments, I think of Kings trilogy of evils "racism, war and poverty" and wonder to myself `When the last two have become things of the past, will the former will continue to flourish?' Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 16:41:00 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms On Mon, 17 Oct 1994, Roger Vanderveen wrote: From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU YOu are the second to ask - maybe I'm wrong, or the person who presented the workshop on cultural sensitivity I attended recently, was wrong. I asked a female colleague and she said it is offensive and vulgar to her, too - it has sex for money connotations it her mind, mine, too. How do I find out the actual entomology? It owuld be nice tohave some of the context included so we could figure out what you're talking about. Entomology? Better check your dictionary for that word before you include it in your paper. =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== This use of "entomology" is obviously one of those offensive idioms! Peter McGraw Linfield College ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 18:56:37 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: go/come with On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: leaving out the object in "go/come with" is typical of northern illinois and other parts of the midwest, and presumed by many to be from germanic influence. the phenomenon is much more widespread here in south african english, where, e.g., i could offer you lunch and ask "have you had?" It's common in Minnesota, which certainly does have German influence. It apparently never caught on in the parts of New York State that used to be Dutch-speaking. Something else I wonder about --- "If he would have" where standard English would be "If he had." It's common in Minnesota -- is it from German, and/or one of the Scandinavian languages? Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:35:46 -0700 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. re Offending Idioms On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote: When I heard "nigger rig," I heard it as one long, funny-sounding verb: niggerrig. I can't remember now exactly how I discovered "nigger" in it. I think maybe I repeated the word at home and my mother pointed out to me what I was saying. Presumably I would have figured it out myself sooner or later, but this brings up a question that I think was implicit in something I said earlier in this discussion. I wonder how many offensive idioms are kept alive by people who don't realize what they're saying. Bingo! Natalie makes the point that young people often acquire forms, the lexical history of which they are unaware. It sucks. (no sexual connection made) Brown nose. (no execretory connection made) and I also remember hearing the expression "jew down" and not associating it with Judaism. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 17:45:14 -0700 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. re Offending Idioms On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Steve Harris wrote: (snip) My college roommate, who grew up in Tennessee, had a childhood pal who: "attached a 'nigger knob' to his bicycle handlebar". Referring to the little hand knob that some people attach to their car steering wheel. In Montana, we called those round swivels affixed to the steering wheel "love handles." That was on the steering wheel so you could keep your right arm across the back of the seat, in case there might be a young woman in that place. tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 23:30:55 -0400 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: This needs listened to Readers of the September Newsletter of the American Dialect Society (pp. 8-9) know that the definitive word on "needs + p.p." will be spoken by the troika of Heartland experts Tim Frazer, Tom Murray, and Beth Lee Simon at about 9 a.m. Saturday, November 12 in the Midwest Regional Meeting of the American Dialect Society, Chicago, Palmer House, Parlor H. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1994 to 25 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 21 messages totalling 501 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Nigger stick (surveyor's rod) 2. offending idioms (3) 3. go/come with (2) 4. Offensive terms (4) 5. 40-11 6. Distribution of positive "anymore" (2) 7. a couple (of) things 8. P.S. re Offending Idioms 9. Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school (2) 10. love handles 11. "I don't care" -- a footnote 12. Is "conservative" a slander word? 13. "Home Training" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:46:00 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Nigger stick (surveyor's rod) For the record, since we're collecting such stuff, when I was with a California National Guard engineering batallion in 1985, we had a private who called the surveying rod a "nigger stick". For a short while. ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Oct 1994 22:39:25 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms I am glad to see offending idioMs back on line. Chuck Coker ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 00:56:55 -0500 From: Charles F Juengling juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: go/come with On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: leaving out the object in "go/come with" is typical of northern illinois and other parts of the midwest, and presumed by many to be from germanic influence. Lynne, what do you mean when you say that this is presumed to be from "germanic" influence? Don't you mean GERMAN influence? If this is indeed a transfer from German, it should not be thought of as "leaving out the object", as the German verbs 'mitgehen' and 'mitkommen' are separable verbs which require no object. BTW, my wife, a native Oregonian, says "go/come with." It sounds odd to me in English, though; but now that we are in Minnesota, she feels right at home. Fritz Juengling the phenomenon is much more widespread here in south african english, where, e.g., i could offer you lunch and ask "have you had?" lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 01:25:24 -0500 From: Charles F Juengling juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Does anyone know when the word 'nigger' became derogatory in meaning in the US? Kluge reports that the term has been in America since the end of the 18th century. There are (at least) two words in German for 'Black person'-- 'Schwarze', which is an adjectival noun formed from the German word meaning 'black'; and 'Neger'. What's interesting is that 'Neger' carries with it absolutely no negative connotations whatsoever. (Many of my students don't believe this and refuse to say the word). The word 'Neger' has been German since at least the beginning of the 17th century and came from French. Given the Spanish meaning and that the German has no negative connotation, it seems that the derogatory meaning developed in ?American? English, and rather late at that. Can anyone shed any light on this? Fritz Juengling ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: go/come with fritz said: leaving out the object in "go/come with" is typical of northern illinois and other parts of the midwest, and presumed by many to be from germanic influence. Lynne, what do you mean when you say that this is presumed to be from "germanic" influence? Don't you mean GERMAN influence? If this is indeed a transfer from German, it should not be thought of as "leaving out the object", as the German verbs 'mitgehen' and 'mitkommen' are separable verbs which require no object. BTW, my wife, a native Oregonian, says "go/come with." It sounds odd to me in English, though; but now that we are in Minnesota, she feels right at home. Fritz Juengling i said "germanic" because i'm not sure that it is from german, since there is a large and (linguistically) influential scandinavian population in that area, and maybe it's from there, i don't know. it seems to me that this query was answered within the last year either on this list or on Linguist--does anyone remember? certainly, in south africa (my other e.g.) i need to say "germanic" since it came from afrikaans. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za South Africa ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 05:33:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: Offensive terms Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU said: # And I will add, in response to the comment by somebody else that # "nigger" is used "especially in the South," that in my 51 years # of living in the South I have never heard anybody use the word -- # except to talk about the fact that it is an offensive term. I'm # not, of course, saying that nobody in the South uses or has used # the term. I'm simply saying that enough people don't use it that # I've managed to lead a pretty normal life for all these years # without bumping into the Southerners who do use it. Well, I'm afraid I can't say as much for my one year in Waycross, Georgia. I hear the word at least a dozen times a week. One source is a group of men, mostly retired, who socialize on the streets of my residential neighborhood just after sunup, walking their dogs, jogging, or whatever. One neighbor is obsessed with how blacks are ruining the country, the schools, and the YMCA, and alternates in his references between "nigger" and "black", the latter, I think, in deference to me as younger, more educated, and an outsider. During Ken Burns's "Baseball" series another neighbor was talking about the "nigger league" as though that were the term used on the show. A particularly painful incident occurred one morning while I was sitting in the waiting room of a local opthamologist. There were probably about 20 people in the room, including three or four middle-aged black women. At one side sat two elderly white women, upper class by their accents, clothes, and hairdos. One of them was apparently a bit deaf, judging by how loud she spoke, and maybe a bit senile as well. At some point she decided she wanted to talk to her friend about the "nigger who killed his wife in Los Angeles". The entire room froze. Her friend desperately tried to change the subject, but this woman kept on, with "nigger" this and "nigger" that, eventually getting around to how fair his kids were, and what a shame it was that "they" were "mixing our blood" like that. Among my students, generally working class, average age 28, range 18-40 with a few outlyers, I have never heard the word. I have, however, heard the moral equivalent: one young white male started ranting one day about how "they should be grateful, because they'd all still be cannibals in the jungle if it wasn't for us." But he did wait until there were no blacks in the room, and at least he knew he wasn't supposed to use "that word". To northerners, the racial tension in this community is palpable. Most whites seem to have accepted the notion that blacks are equal before the law, but they still don't want to have anything to do with them. Blacks mingle with whites in public, but are much more silently hostile toward whites than in the North, especially the men. But every incident of outright rudeness I have heard of here, on the part of whites, has been directed not at blacks alone, but at mixed groups, such as the faculty of the college out at a country restaurant. "Separate but equal" is still the ideal. On the other hand, many of my students -- not a random sample of the community, of course -- are very concerned about race relations and seem willing to break with the traditions of the area. I see this more clearly among young women than among men. Southern society, as I see it here anyway, is certainly complex, and although stereotypes are not very predictive, it's not hard to see where they came from. And there are certainly many aspects of southern culture that I, as an outsider, find disturbing, if not offensive. So let's not talk about the flag, hear? David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 07:17:27 -0500 From: Denise Adams dadams[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TENET.EDU Subject: Re: 40-11 Brent, Although it's not used as much now, all of my elder relatives say 40-ll. I'm originally from central Missouri. Denise Austin, TX On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, BRENT D HUTCHINSON wrote: All my life I have heard the expression "40-11" as well. I too am from eastern Kentucky, and I simply assumed that the expression was local. However, I have spent a considerable amount of time on coastal South Carolina and heard the same expression there, meaning an undeterminable (but large) quantity. Is this expression concentrated in the Eastern U.S., or is it used nationwide? Thanks, Brent H.-Morehead State ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:48:12 EDT From: Alana Gaymon agaymon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FDIC.GOV Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" I also heard "anymore" going to college in Winston-Salem North Carolina. Nowhere else, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:21:50 -0600 From: Larry Davis DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms After reading the ADS-list comments on offending idioms, and cannot be help but be struck by the fact that many of my colleagues, while perhaps well-meaning lack some old-fashioned virtues--including good manners and a sensitivity to the feelings of others. Old-fashionedly (and proud of same) yours, Larry Davis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 08:07:15 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive terms Just a quick note: Yestererday, my dogs got out (Rottweilers) and went straight to a neighbor's house and started fighting with her dog through a fence. This woman, white, I'd guess in her sixties or seventies, came to my house, and started calling me names, "nigger" among them. I know that I am responsible for what mu dogs do, but I found it somewhat odd that she called me a "nigger," as I look VERY white. (This is Southern California, BTW.) Is "nigger" becoming a generic "I hate you" term that can be used toward anybody, regardless of their skin color? Or does this lady need her glasses checked? It was indeed shocking to be called a "nigger." A witness to this whole thing was my friend, Joe, who lives straight across the street from me. Joe is VERY dark-skinned. My three-year-old and his three-year-old play together all the time, oblivious to skin color. Anyway, when the dog thing was over, Joe came over, and he was laughing *AT* the woman from down the street. By hanging out with Joe, do I become an "honorary" "nigger"? The episode immediately made me think of the thread on this list. Can white people be "niggers" too? Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 10:09:46 -0500 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: Re: a couple (of) things #1. An new mag, Image, (for black men, the cover says) has an article on the word 'nigger' in its premier issue, about sept or oct, I think. It's a slick high gloss mag with corporate looking men in the clothing ads. #2. Raised in Johnstown, PA, I didn't know needs + -ed was a dialect form till it was corrected on a grad paper in North Dakota. (non- native, hurumph!) Also postive anymore--it took several times for Tim Frazer to explain it to me, since it's such a natural form for me, I couldn't figure out how to distinguish it from other uses (negative anymore, I guess). (HI Mechnaicsburg PA!) #3. My kids learned "go with" (along with "borrow me that") in North Dakota. I pikced up the first but not the second. In Nebrasksa and in south-central IL, "go with" gets commented on (commenting on?) but no one ever said anything about it needing done--I think my kids have quit going with, but I haven't--especially to intro to linguistics students, who need a good dose of "nonstandard" speech in high places. (Well, I'm high to them, I guess, or at least to some of them.) -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:23:38 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. re Offending Idioms 2. My college roommate, who grew up in Tennessee, had a childhood pal who: "attached a 'nigger knob' to his bicycle handlebar". Referring to the little hand knob that some people attach to their car steering wheel. Here, I think, there is a connotation of stupidity. In San Antonio, TX, in the late 1960s, we called this old-fashioned steering wheel attachment a _necker knob_. Older guys (who were perpetually seventeen since the mid to late 1950s) with pointed shoes and hair greased into ducktails had necker knobs on old fixed-up Fords and Chevies. We may have had a euphemistic mispronunciation of the term, but I always figured that a necker knob allowed the driver to steer with one hand and then neck with his girlfriend with the other. I suggest that either way the connotation of the term has to do with laziness (although I have often thought that having one of those things would be a bit of cleverness). Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 08:56:29 PDT From: John Baugh John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET Subject: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school REPLY TO 10/26/94 07:22 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society": Re: offending idioms Thanks Larry: It's good to know that ADS will be lead by a scholar who is also a gentleman. In the hood we'd say "That man has good HT." (i.e. Home training). In the African American community, saying that someone had good "HT" or worse, that someone "ain't got no HT" is a way of distinguishing those who are considerate of others, and those who simply lack such training. Are there comparable expressions in the white community (in the U.S. or elsewhere?) Best, John Baugh To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET cc: RICKFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:02:10 PDT From: John Baugh John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET Subject: Re: Offensive terms REPLY TO 10/26/94 08:28 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society": Re: Offensive terms No. Professor Coker is not an honorary nigger, nor is there any prospect that he will ever attain that status. John Baugh To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET cc: RICKFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 11:28:14 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: love handles Tom Clark said these were on a steering wheel. Mine are right above my hips. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 09:58:48 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: "I don't care" -- a footnote Sensitized by the discussion here, I noticed the following exchange in a novel about Indiana in the mid l9th century: Kindly gentleman to poor, hungry child: "Won't you join me for dinner?" Child, gratefully accepting: "Thank you. I don't care if I do." (The novel is 'The Dark Fantastic' by Echard, pub in 1947. The author says it's based on events in the life of her great-grandmother, who lived near Terre Haute). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:21:59 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Distribution of positive "anymore" I also heard "anymore" going to college in Winston-Salem North Carolina. Nowhere else, though. The first time I ever heard positive "anymore" was from a North Carolinian living in Florida. I remember it because I was fascinated by what struck my Mississippi ears as very strange usage. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 13:15:56 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school On John Baugh's query re equivalents to the "'hood" use of H[ome] T[raining]-- In the African American community, saying that someone had good "HT" or worse, that someone "ain't got no HT" is a way of distinguishing those who are considerate of others, and those who simply lack such training. Are there comparable expressions in the white community (in the U.S. or elsewhere?) --sounds similar to the French "bien elev'e(e)". I don't know any colloquial English equivalent in the white community. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 13:34:48 -0400 From: Tom McClive tommcc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU Subject: Re: Is "conservative" a slander word? On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote: In response to my post about the use of "that word" in KNoxville, Roger Vanderveen asked whether I use it [the word "conservative"] "in general to slander conservatives." ?!? I find it astonishing that one might be taken to be "slandering" conservatives by calling them conservatives. Can one slander someone by calling by the label that rightfully belongs to them? Or has the word "conservative" become non-PC without my noticing that that has happened? I am reminded of the 1988 American presidental campaign, when the George Bush team tried, and succeed, to turn "liberal" into a tabboo word. Micheal Dukakis was compelled to avoid its use and its label; in fact it was a major news story the day that Dukakis finally decided to adopt it and call himself a liberal. His attemps to detabboo it failed; it is of course still being used now in this election season to bash the democrats. To address an earlier post, I do believe that a single word can become a euphonism. Once people agree on a context, almost any word or phrase will do I remember a company I worked for that used the word "opportunity" instead of the word "problem". This eventually carried over to all forms of conversation and the word "opportunity" expanded and became a joke. Tom McClive University of North Carolina tommcc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 13:22:19 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive terms With regard to Chuck Coker's encounter and the extension of "nigger" as a generalized hate term. I was appalled here (middle Tennessee) when our students in the mid-70s began to refer to a contingent of Libyan students as "sand niggers." Perhaps, once this term encompasses everyone, it will lose all meaning and disappear. Alan Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Oct 1994 12:41:01 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: "Home Training" I believe the white equivalent of "H.T." is "manners." Often it is found in the sentence "so & so's got no manners." This is lower middle class GAD, methinks. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1994 to 26 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 129 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. White HT? 2. Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school (3) 3. Offensive terms 4. Things are getting complicated anymore... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 09:24:03 -0500 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: White HT? "brought up right" "Those kids were brought up right." "Those kids never had a good upbringing." And the more neutral: "They're bringing up three kids." "They were brought up in the church." -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 12:17:39 EDT From: GLENN D STEWART gdstew01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school On John Baugh's query re equivalents to the "'hood" use of H[ome] T[raining]-- In the African American community, saying that someone had good "HT" or worse, that someone "ain't got no HT" is a way of distinguishing those who are considerate of others, and those who simply lack such training. Are there comparable expressions in the white community (in the U.S. or elsewhere?) --sounds similar to the French "bien elev'e(e)". I don't know any colloquial English equivalent in the white community. L Larry Perhaps a close equivalent might be "What's the matter with you, were you born in a barn? or is that only local Eastern Kentuckian? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 16:12:17 EDT From: BRENT D HUTCHINSON bdhutc01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school On John Baugh's query re equivalents to the "'hood" use of H[ome] T[raining]-- In the African American community, saying that someone had good "HT" or worse, that someone "ain't got no HT" is a way of distinguishing those who are considerate of others, and those who simply lack such training. Are there comparable expressions in the white community (in the U.S. or elsewhere?) --sounds similar to the French "bien elev'e(e)". I don't know any colloquial English equivalent in the white community. Larry Here in Appalachia, the term "raised right" is quite prevalent and is used to mean the same thing for whites. I guess that the negative equivalent would be "not raised right"?! Brent Hutchinson & Diane Gardner Morehead State University Morehead, KY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 15:35:26 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school "Born in a barn" is not local Eastern Kentuckian. I was raised in Southern California, and I, too, was "born in a barn." Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 20:54:28 -0400 From: Claudio Salvucci CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM Subject: Re: Offensive terms A friend of mine from college, born and raised (though not all of his life) in Zaire, told me that "sand nigger" was quite a common usage in Zaire, referring to Africans above the Sahara. What I don't remember (if he ever told me) was whether black Zairois or Belgians or both used it. In either case, it was not a general term of contempt but was quite directly imed at the Arab-speaking world. Claudio Salvucci csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 21:14:40 -0400 From: Claudio Salvucci CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM Subject: Things are getting complicated anymore... My college linguistics teacher asked the class if anyone had ever heard the usage of positive "anymore". I was the only one who had, and she informed us that it was a local (Philadelphia) usage. I have seen the usage described in books (although not scholarly ones, I must admit) as a SE Pennsylvania usage. This was not a recent book, either. And as a lifelong resident of Phila., I have heard it used, and am hearing it used with greater frequency. (or perhaps I'm more sensitive to it) Secondly, I have also heard the "wanna come with?" usage described earlier. Whether it's a common local usage or an aberration, I don't know. (Sigh) Here I am, trying to establish a linguistic identity for Philadelphia, and I find out these usages are about as scattered in the country as hydrogen is in the universe. You can try all you want, but there's no way in the world I'm giving up "Yo". Next thing you know, somebody'll tell me that a "hoagie" is a Los Angeles sandwich. Claudio "Data? Ah, who cares about data?" Salvucci csalvucci[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Oct 1994 to 27 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 39 messages totalling 848 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. born in a barn (3) 2. The Southland (2) 3. buggy vs. cart (14) 4. forty-twelve 5. Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school (3) 6. Forty-eleven 7. Folklore sayings (3) 8. 'needs fixed' fun 9. go/come with 10. Offensive terms 11. 7-11 12. grass and cats 13. need + p.p. 14. The word 'damn' 15. shopping cart/caddie 16. GURT 1995 - corrections 17. offending idioms (2) 18. offending idiot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 23:28:36 -0500 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: born in a barn In my childhood home, "born in a barn" referred exclusively to someone who didn't close an outside door behind them. For table manners, there was a verse, "Mabel, mabel strong and able Get your elbows off the table." I use born in a barn with my kids and their friends, and I, too, use it exclusively as a way to say, "shut the door !" I have always assumed it had to with not having to pay to heat a barn so it didn't matter if the door was left open, probably because it was often followed by something about not paying to heat the outside. I think children in Johnstown were not raised or reared, we were brought up. You were brought up right if you were seen and not heard, said yes ma'am and no sir, didn't backtalk, pushed your chair back under the table, didn't put your elbows on the table and so on. My sense is that being brought up right had as much or more to do with manners as with ethics and morals (e.g. being honest, loyal, etc). My grandfather (95 yrs old) is a linguistic relic--I'm 6th or 7th generation Johnstown by his line. I plan to go home next summer. Any suggestions about how to query him for a form on this? (He does put his elbows on the table and say "three mile down the road" and "I seen a guy the other day.")) -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 05:01:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: The Southland # I sympathize with David Johns and his encounters with the term # "Yankee". My mother, from Wisconsin, married my native-Georgian # father in 1945, and Waycross was her first point of entry into # the South. She never did find any humor in her new relatives' # "Damn Yankee" jokes. But as David's comment about how people # show no embarrassment or hesitation about asking, "Are you a # Yankee?" suggests, the resentment toward Northerners is really # fairly shallow (in my experience). Hmmm ... maybe, but I've been taking it as an indication of how comfortable southerners are with social stratification. People of inferior station know their place, so there's no reason not to talk about it openly. # Certainly, I've known Northerners who assimilated fairly rapidly # and painlessly into Southern life. True, although to me it's like living in a city, where you can always find people who share your values, no matter how aberrant they are. But unlike cities, where "virtual communities" seem to be more compartmentalized, here your life seems to be much more intertwined with people who see you as something between an alien and an enemy. David Johns Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 08:43:32 EDT From: DONNIE J GRAYSON djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: buggy vs. cart For over two and a half years combined I worked at two grocery stores, and observed customers intering the store and finding an instrument to push around the store to put foodstuffs in for purchase. The customers not only used either "cart" or "buggy" for this shopping basket on wheels, but also the employees of each store used only one of these terms by itself. For example, in the first grocery store, this was a "cart" and only a "cart." But, in the second grocery store, the word "buggy" was exclusively used. These two grocery stores were seperated by only ten miles, but each had differnt terminology for the same instrument. I want to know whether "cart" or "buggy" are predominately southern, northern, or used interchangeably everywhere? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 08:56:16 EDT From: DONNIE J GRAYSON djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: forty-twelve In response to an earlier message about 'forty-eleven," I have heard the usage of the phrase 'forty-twelve.' In a numbering sequence, 1 would mean alone, 2 a couple, 3 a few, 4-to-12 a many, and then from 13-to 19 the teens In my hearing of the term 'forty-twelve' it means any number of things, peo- ple, etc. numbering between four and twelve. e-mail adress: djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart donny grayson asks about shopping carts... where i grew up (upstate ny) they were only "shopping carts", that i remember (usually not shortened to "cart") (i also worked in a grocery store, in the early 80s). in south africa (as well as other more-recently-british places, i think), they use "trolley", but i think i'd heard that in the states too (perhaps when i lived in massachusetts?). lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:09:08 -0400 From: Elizabeth Martinez MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school "Born in a barn" is not local Eastern Kentuckian. I was raised in Southern California, and I, too, was "born in a barn." Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu In New York City we too were "raised in a barn". ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:13:18 EDT From: LORI B BALDRIDGE lbbald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Forty-eleven I have a friend from Grayson (Carter County) who has heard of forty- eleven, but I only live about 30-45 minutes from both of you and I've never heard of it. P.S. I was not staring over your shoulder, but for that I'm giving you extra assignments. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:17:37 EDT From: SHANE J SALLEE sjsall01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Folklore sayings Good Morning Internet, It's getting to be cold in Kentucky nowadays. With the ushering in of winter comes the assault of folklore. I'm considering on writing a book, called "The Folklore Almanac", listing all the folklore for each month and day.So, I'm asking for some help out there. I need to know folklore sayings and doings around the world. Things like, "If the wooly worm-caterpillar- is all black, then there will be no break in winter. Or, if a spider spins it's web backwards means a storm is a-comin'. Write to me with your sayings. Shane Sallee, Morehead State University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:10:15 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart For some reason which is not clear to anybody I continually refer to the shopping vehicle in grocery stores as a "carriage." When people in the midwest questioned this I told them I assumed I learned it in NY, but on further checking no NYers I know use it, nor does anyone in my family from NY. So where did I get it? I always thought it must be an idiotisme (is that the word in French?) but this mention of calling it a "buggy" leads me to mention "carriage," in case anybody else has collected the term. Dennis (idiot savant) B -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:42:58 EST From: Trace mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU Subject: 'needs fixed' fun I am interested in this particular thread b'c I had _never_ heard this form until I came to IN (from Alaska). I was quite thrilled when a new PhD student in my inrto to ling class said "My car needs washed!" I thought it was the most unusual structure I had ever heard. Now, three years later I still listen for it--and I don't hear it very much at all. Until recently when a very close friend was showing me an 'ad' he had written for some sort of secretish underground electronic journal. He had cleverly used the "anonymous" service so that no one here would know it was him, until I pointed out his use of the 'needs Xed'. I did not mean it as an indsult-- I meant only to warn him that he may be giving himself away since he is the only person in the department that I had heard use that form. He was furious and told me to "shut up you damn linguist". I didn't know it was a sore spot. He's from Southern IN and doesn't really have many other traits of Southern IN speech. Well, next time I will think more before pointing out a linguistic trait that I find wonderful but others may hate. Tracey ****************************************************************************** "The first problem for all of us, Tracey McHenry men and women, is not to learn, mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mace.cc.purdue.edu but to unlearn." Learning . . . . --Gloria Steinem-- ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart For some reason which is not clear to anybody I continually refer to the shopping vehicle in grocery stores as a "carriage." When people in the midwest questioned this I told them I assumed I learned it in NY, but on further checking no NYers I know use it, nor does anyone in my family from NY. So where did I get it? I always thought it must be an idiotisme (is that the word in French?) but this mention of calling it a "buggy" leads me to mention "carriage," in case anybody else has collected the term. Dennis (idiot savant) B -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu this doesn't sound unfamiliar to me (and i've lived in both places), but i'm wondering if it's by association with "baby carriage", which is a very similar thing, and which shopping carts are often used as. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 12:23:59 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school As Brent Hutchinson noted, I'm most familiar with "raised right", though not from Appalachia-- my dad's from Muskegon MI, my mom from Athens GA (a good hour south of the mountains). I think it's from my mom, and that both the credit and blame in fact generally attach to the mother: so the negative is, "Didn't your mama raise you right?" [She did.] It's also interesting because if you accuse someone of not being raised right, you're in theory not blaming them, but undercover you're casting a slur on their mama-- so it's pretty serious. Is this true of HT also? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 12:44:28 -0400 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart As one who bagged groceries for Coral Gables shoppers back in the early sixties, I recall 'cart', 'carriage', 'basket' and 'wagon' all sometimes following 'shopping-'. When the little baby seat was installed to these contraptions it was easy to call it a 'carriage' (as in 'baby carriage'). The managers often called them 'carts', though the customers called them 'baskets'. There are, of course, both the hand-held and the rolling variety of shopping baskets. -AOBD (who transported bags, bundles, satchels, goods, groceries, purchases, and shoppings to customers' autos - celebrating all the while the inherent dignity of manual work) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 12:45:54 -0400 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: The Southland David Johns writes about how upsetting it is to be called a Yankee as if he were something between an alien and an enemy, down there in Waycross Ga. Not to be unsympathetic, Dave, but you ARE an alien: someone who comes from somewhere else, quite different. That's just a fact. It's a little odd that people actually ask "Are you a Yankee?", cause it should be pretty obvious from people's speech whether they are or not. Also it's a little odd that feeling unwelcome makes you think that people are treating you as socially inferior in status. I think that's confusing two things. Not everyone who's made to feel unwelcome can claim they're being "put down" in social-class terms; sometimes people who represent a dominating, overwhelmingly prejudiced group with a fine sense of its own superiority are unwelcome, too. Not that I'm attributing such attitudes to you (seriously). But there's plenty of evidence for anti-Southern prejudice, including practically every college campus I've visited outside the South, so it's hard to see that calling you a Yankee is going overboard with hostility. Besides, there ARE good Yankees! and no doubt you're one... One indication of that might be a historical sense of guilt over the historical mistreatment of Southerners, black and white, and a truly sensitive person might well feel uncomfortable at having that feeling constantly evoked. (There are also good halfbreeds, like me: Michigan father, Georgia mother, who accused him and "his people" of stealing the silverware up to a few years ago, when she got really angry...) For what it's worth, there are worse things to be called! --peter lumpkin patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:02:04 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart Here in San Francisco it seems to be "cart" in-store. It is "shopping cart" when one of Reagan's Children is pushing it down the street with all their belongings. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:05:23 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Larry Davis: a gentleman and scholar of the old school "Born in a barn" is not local Eastern Kentuckian. I was raised in Southern California, and I, too, was "born in a barn." Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu When I grew up in Orange County in the early fifties, many of my neighbors were Oklahoma & Arkansas -ancestored. Lots of that in our childhood speech. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:06:34 -0400 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Re: go/come with On Tue, 25 Oct 1994, Daniel S Goodman wrote: It's common in Minnesota, which certainly does have German influence. It apparently never caught on in the parts of New York State that used to be Dutch-speaking. My two older brothers, who were educated in Denmark (my mother's birthplace), would often invite me (in their new quaint way), "do you want to come with?" Being educated in a strict Benedictine abbey school in Trinidad (frightfully British), I reminded them prescriptively (in what were Churchill's words?) that this usage was not something up with which I'd put. You don't need Garrison Keilor to remind you what nationality was settled Minnesota with. -AOBD (ah, what Mark Twain could have done with Danish) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 11:48:12 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive terms In Message Thu, 27 Oct 1994 20:54:28 -0400, Claudio Salvucci CSALVUCCI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com writes: A friend of mine from college, born and raised (though not all of his life) in Zaire, told me that "sand nigger" was quite a common usage in Zaire, referring to Africans above the Sahara. What I don't remember (if he ever told me) was whether black Zairois or Belgians or both used it. In either case, it was not a general term of contempt but was quite directly imed at the Arab-speaking world. I was born in Zaire, a francophone country, and didn't leave it till I was 27 years old. I don't remember ever hearing the term, i.e., what "sand nigger" must be a translation of. Could it have been used among European expatriates? Black Africans do not consider Arabs blacks! Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:09:24 -0400 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: 7-11 For Pete's Sake, you-all. Quit trying to make some deep scholarly interpretation of 7-11--stores so named because that's the hours they were open! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:15:52 -0400 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: grass and cats Do cats eat grass? Is the pope Polish? They eat not only grass but any houseplants, floral arrangements, and such like that unwary householders leave in cat reach. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:21:02 -0400 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Re: born in a barn On Thu, 27 Oct 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote: In my childhood home, "born in a barn" referred exclusively to someone who didn't close an outside door behind them. If'n I had'na ever heard the explanation following use of this expression, I could have easily associated it (confused it) with the Christmas story and interpreted it to mean, "you think you're so high and mighty" or "do you think you're so special", or, "who do you think you are - God?" -AOBD (who may have closed far too many doors behind me) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:23:14 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart My aunt Florence was raised in Brooklyn eighty years ago. She has lived in Noo Yawk all her life. Her first take was "Grocery Cart", but she corrected that to "Shopping Cart." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:23:50 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart As soon as Dennis B. mentioned "carriage" I had an almost Proustian recall. Yes, that was the word we used in New York in the '50's, although I should say A word, since "shopping cart" (not, I think, reduced to "cart") was also extant. Wow, "carriage"--that really takes me back. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:07:41 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Folklore sayings "Gulls in the Meadow" here in San Francisco means a rainstorm is blowing in off the sea. They (the gulls) do indeed come to the beaches and meadows of the partk, and sit together in flocks, before a storm. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 12:38:42 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart Check Vol I, Dictionary Of American Regional English. Beth Simon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:38:25 EDT From: JOHN A KIDD jakidd01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Folklore sayings Shane, Throughout the years, I have hear several folkloric expressions. Some are very weird and most based on superstition ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:58:48 -0400 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: need + p.p. In German, ther verb "brauchen" (to need) takes the p.p., instead of the infinitive. Could this be the background for the use of need + p.p. in western Pa., where much of the speech is heavily influenced by the Pa Dutch (Germans) Incidentally, need + p.p. is used in WV as well as western Pa. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:43:28 -0500 From: Lewis Sanborne lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU Subject: Re: born in a barn Joan Livingston commented In my childhood home, "born in a barn" referred exclusively to someone who didn't close an outside door behind them. For table manners, there was a verse, "Mabel, mabel strong and able Get your elbows off the table." These were the phrases and meanings in our family as well in the 60s. My father was raised in upstate NY and my mother in Brooklyn. We replaced Mabel with the name of the appropriate sibling, and were occassionaly bold enough to insert father. Mom NEVER put her elbows on the table. My sense is that being brought up right had as much or more to do with manners as with ethics and morals (e.g. being honest, loyal, etc). My experience matches Joan's here as well. My parents still seem more concerned with the surface manifestations of manners than with broader ethical issues. Manners, or their absence, are easier to identify and hence judge. Lew Sanborne St. Ambrose University Davenport, IA 52803 319 324-8266 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 15:02:51 -0400 From: Elizabeth Martinez MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart For some reason which is not clear to anybody I continually refer to the shopping vehicle in grocery stores as a "carriage." When people in the midwest questioned this I told them I assumed I learned it in NY, but on further checking no NYers I know use it, nor does anyone in my family from NY. So where did I get it? I always thought it must be an idiotisme (is that the word in French?) but this mention of calling it a "buggy" leads me to mention "carriage," in case anybody else has collected the term. Dennis (idiot savant) B -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu this doesn't sound unfamiliar to me (and i've lived in both places), but i'm wondering if it's by association with "baby carriage", which is a very similar thing, and which shopping carts are often used as. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson Both these terms sound familiar to me too. I grew up in NY City (Queens) and I remember the term "shopping cart" (no abbreviations, i.e., cart) in certain contexts, such as "Go get a shopping cart"; but I remember using "carriage" in other contexts:"Get in the carriage" or "I want to get in the carriage ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 21:00:46 HOE From: Alberto RIO RIOGARAL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.SDI.UAM.ES Subject: The word 'damn' Recently I saw a cartoon in the International Herald Tribune about Cubans refugees and Mr. Clinton which, when translated in Spain ('El Pais' newspaper, center-left), changed the word 'damn' to a Spanish 'equivalent', a hard word meaning 'solid waste from the bowels'. Could you tell me whether 'damn' ('dammned', I guess) is a taboo word and in what degree? In our dictionaries, encyclopaedias, etc., it doesn't appears as such. Perhaps in Mr. Clinton native Arkansas ... Thank you in advance. Yours, Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599 Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894 Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail: Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 16:07:38 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart Growing up in Ohio, I always heard people use the term "cart" or "grocery cart." I lived in Missouri for ten years and all I heard was the same term "cart" or "grocery cart." I lived in Georgia--northeastern corner a stone's throw from the Alabama border--for two years, and it was there that I first heard the expression "buggy" to refer to what I always called a grocery cart. Of course, I pay some attention to language choices people make, but I remember that this term really stood out when I first heard it. I at first thought the term had some semantic difference associated with it--what people called a "buggy" at this one local store--with lots of local poor working class people (not the shopping mall types)--was a huge plastic shopping cart (on wheels of course). But I soon determined that the term "buggy" extended to include wire carts as well. Having heard the term in no other regions where I have lived (Except I do hear it some now in Kentucky) and hearing no reports of such use in other regions, as indicated in responses so far to the list, I think it may be safe to conclude that the use of "buggy" to refer to a shopping cart is a distinctive southern feature. Which was the original query, I believe. P.S. I was a Yankee living in the South, and I felt the sort of exclusion others have mentioned--this is in the rural areas. I realized I would probably never be truly accepted, even if I joined the Baptist Church and married a local gal. SO I left. Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 15:41:50 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart As soon as Dennis B. mentioned "carriage" I had an almost Proustian recall. Yes, that was the word we used in New York in the '50's, although I should say A word, since "shopping cart" (not, I think, reduced to "cart") was also extant. Wow, "carriage"--that really takes me back. Larry I'm glad to know I didn't imagine carriage. My wife still thinks I made it up, even when I read her Larry's reply. I grew up in NY in the 40s and 50s. She's from Chicago, and we all know how impoverished their vocabulary is. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 17:05:05 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart Check Vol I, Dictionary Of American Regional English. Beth Simon The use of buggy to refer to a shopping cart is not cited in DARE, but American Heritage 3RD Edition lists buggy to refer to a shopping cart, especially for groceries as Chiefly Southern US. Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 17:51:14 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET Subject: shopping cart/caddie Dennis Baron asked (parenthetically): For some reason which is not clear to anybody I continually refer to the shopping vehicle in grocery stores as a "carriage." ... So where did I get it? I always thought it must be an idiotisme (is that the word in French?)... The most ususual word in France is _caddie_ which used to be a brand name for this sort of device and is a name borrowed from the Anglicized terminology of golf. Sometimes one also hears _chariot_, which is short for _chariot de supermarche'_. In French, the usual meaning for _chariot_ is concerned with the totally inglorious transport of merchandise in various cart-like devices equiped with wheels. I am reminded of one of the worst mistranslations of a movie title from English to French: "Chariots of Fire" "Les chariots de feu". All the sense of speed and glory is lost in the French version. The allusion comes from an English poet building, no doubt, on the Biblical account of Elijah taken up in the fiery "char". Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 16:04:55 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: buggy vs. cart This is a tangent, but, . . . How do homeless people get all the good carts, buggies, wagons, baskets, and carriages, when all I can find at the local store are ones in which all four wheels point in four different directions? Is this something like one of the laws of physics or something? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:48:48 -0400 From: GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: GURT 1995 - corrections GURT - Corrections/additions to preliminary announcement: Please note the following corrections to the GURT 1995 program: 1) Pre-Conference session Discourse and Agency: The contact numbers for Dr. Patrician E. O'Connor were listed incorrectly. THE CORRECT NUMBERS are tel: (202) 687-7622 fax: (202) 687-5445 2) The title for Dr. Jeff Connor-Linton's workshop has been revised to: "Criterion-Referenced Curriculum and Test Development for Language Teachers and Administrators." Also, since many of you have inquired -- for the past several years, there has been no call for papers for the GURT conference. Instead, speakers have been invited by the Chair. There may be changes to this policy for conferences beyond 1995, though this is uncertain. My best advice at this point is therefore to stay in touch with GURT staff. Carolyn Straehle Coordinator, GURT 1995 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Oct 1994 09:29:44 -0500 From: Lewis Sanborne lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Another phrase that has similar connotations is "wham bam thank you ma'm." It's from a song called (I think) "Something Jessie Did." Not sure of the artist, but it's a good song, anyway. Charles Mingus wrote and recorded a song called "wham bam, thank you ma'm" in 1961. Much of his jazz in that era attempted to capture the essence and flavor of his culture; other songs he did around the same time include "Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting" and "Eat That Chicken." Lew Sanborne St. Ambrose University Davenport, IA 52803 319 324-8266 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 22:02:11 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms "More bang for your buck" may have pharmacological and sexual implications now, but it did not when it was first used. It applied to ordnance. A case of semantic drift, folk etymology or what? Joe Monda who wishes he had more bucks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Oct 1994 21:51:45 PDT From: John Baugh John.Baugh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STANFORD.BITNET Subject: offending idiot [7606] TUE 10/18/94 21:23 FROM John.Baugh "John Baugh": OFFENDING IDIOT; 43 LINES ADSers: I read Chuck Coker's politically correct remarks concerning his sense of personal loss at the desecration of his grandparent's dog's burial site. Salikoko has raised many of the points that I wanted to raise, but I have three personal observations as an African American: 1) Were Coker's grandparents recipients of affirmative action, and were African Americans fairly or equally employed when those dams were built? 2) In the 60's when I was a boy scout,in a racially integrated scout troop, several of my fellow scouts (who happened to be white) would often dare groups of older boys(who would be white) to call me a nigger == because they knew that I would fight any and all comers who flaunted racial taunts. I still carry physical scars that resulted from those fights. One of the white boys that I fought told me of the betrayal of my fellow scouts (all of whom claimed not to be racist). 3) Since then it has been my experience that racists are usually the first to claim that "I'm not racist." PS: As a general rule, members of oppressed groups (or formerly oprressed groups) may use terms that might otherwise be offensive to members of that group; that is, as long as it is used in the proper context by another bona fide member of that same group. I don't doubt that Dr.Coker saw some African Americans refering to fellow Blacks as "Nigger." Indeed (as Sali observed) there are pragmatic constraints on these norms. When non-members of the group begin to toss around offensive and derogatory terms (which seems to be the politically correct trend) is when sparks (or worse) may fly. I regret that I haven't followed this discussion more closely, but as I read Prof. Coker's remarks I was reminded of the term "white trash" and "peckerwood" as other offensive idioms. Again, I suspect that I am covering old territory. In the meantime I look forward to seeing a lot of y'all when you come to town for NWAV. All best, John Baugh To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1994 to 28 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 279 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The word 'damn' 2. offending idiot (5) 3. buggy / cart 4. raised in a barn 5. anymore, needs+pp, V+with 6. please help with addresses ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 18:09:16 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: The word 'damn' On Fri, 28 Oct 1994, Alberto RIO wrote: Could you tell me whether 'damn' ('dammned', I guess) is a taboo word and in what degree? In our dictionaries, encyclopaedias, etc., it doesn't appears as such. Perhaps in Mr. Clinton native Arkansas ... I am just now fifty, raised in Southern California, New Mexico and Central Coast California, with excursions for five years to Massachustetts. In my childhood, "damn" and "damned" were risque, but many adults said them. Now I believe they have lost all flavor and significance. I do believe they have always been less significant in the south of the US, but I could not prove it. Just an impression. Now, you have to tell us, WHAT Spanish word was used in translation, and what freight does it carry in Spain? Most of the Spanish we hear here is New World... Thanks, Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00:38:06 PDT From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot Hi: Chuck Coker here. First of all, I would like to point out that I am not Professor Coker (I teach occasionally, but only because I know my stuff; I am not faculty anywhere), nor am I Dr. Coker (I don't have a Ph.D. in anything, that is, of course, unless you use the "Piled Higher and Deeper" meaning). However, if anybody used those terms seriously, I'm flattered; but most of the time I took them to be sarcastic (well-deserved) jabs at my comments. I don't want anybody to lose sleep over this, I can take it :-). Second, I am famous (infamous?) for being politically UNcorrect. I often speak without my brain being properly engaged, as all have witnessed (in this case, I "keyboarded" without brain properly engaged). I often say what comes to mind rather than filtering it to avoid hurt feelings, etc. This has caused me many problems during my life in one way or another -- primarily at work, when talking to the boss, for example. Anyway, what I wanted to respond to was the question about the Boulder Dam (aka Hoover Dam) project. All I really know, other than the dog story -- it was a camp mascot, by the way, not my grandparents' dog -- is all about the electrical design of the dam (my grandfather was an electrical engineer on the project). Everytime we would pass the dam (my grandparents took their grandkids travelling often) we'd get the whole electrical blueprints recited again and again. I have seen WPA cards (Works Progress Administration, or something like that -- this was during the depression) at my mothers house. I think these were analogous to modern-day company ID cards. I don't really know all the details like ethnic makeup of the workforce or anything. My mother is back east right now (she lives about an hour from me), but upon her return I'll pick her brain on anything she remembers about such things, and get her to dig out old photos taken during construction. After which, I will forward a summary of what I find out. In closing, I would like to point out that since this is the American Dialect Society (not the Politically Correct Society), I have heard the dam referred to as "Boulder Dam" only by those who worked on the project. Everyone else seems to refer to it by its proper name, "Hoover Dam." The nearest town to the work camp was Boulder City, Nevada, hence the name "Boulder Dam." Has anybody else heard of it referred to as Boulder Dam by people not affiliated with the project? Or as in my case, their descendants? Comments and Flames always welcome, Prof./Dr. Chuck Coker :-) CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu P.S.: If you want a REALLY GOOD political correctness argument, see the one on ANTHRO-L. Some guy named Rushton recently published a book that "clearly demonstrates" the "racial superiority" of white people over "people of color." Rushton claims scientific truth to his bigotry (bigotry is MY word, not his), others claim that the level of melanin in one's skin has absolutely zero effect on IQ, etc. (a theory I also subscribe to). P.P.S: John Baugh: I have heard the term "white trash," but not "peckerwood." I have three white grandparents, one Indian (oops, Native American -- there I go again) grandmother -- so I think I qualify as a white guy. Therefore, am I a "peckerwood?" (If it's not a noun, is it something I do? I've been called "peckerhead" before, but that was something different, I think.) Also, I made the claim that I am not racist. My granddughter, who I love dearly, has ancestors that are (forgive me here) white, black, indian, mexican, and oriental (I don't know her father's complete genealogy). As I claimed to be NOT racist (which really means I am), which part of my granddaughter should I hate? I've always been confused about that. (This is in jest, please don't reply to it. I am, however, curious about peckerwood.) =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 07:17:38 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: buggy / cart When I suggested checking DARE for buggy and cart entries, I was thinking of the regionality of the uses that are entered, and wondering whether they were similar to what might emerge here with this discussion. I don't have DARE at home, so I didn't offer the information myself, but I should have made my suggestion clearer. Beth Simon Indiana University/Purdue University-Fort Wayne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 12:17:30 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart R2SLL1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AKRONVM.BITNET Subject: Re: offending idiot Concerning the use of offending words, Geneva Smitherman presents an interesting and informative perspective on the use of "nigger" and "nigga" in her new book, _Black Talk: Words and Phrases from the Hood to the Amen Corner_. 1994. Houghton Mifflin. She also has an entry on the term "wigga" (literally, a white nigger--p.237). Sonja Lanehart University of Michigan Department of English Sonja.Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 11:18:06 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot In Message Tue, 18 Oct 1994 21:51:45 PDT, John Baugh John.Baugh%STANFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: [7606] TUE 10/18/94 21:23 FROM John.Baugh "John Baugh": OFFENDING IDIOT; 43 LINES Can any of the e-mail gurus on this list explain why John Baugh's mail was distributed 10 days late? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 16:22:34 -0400 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: raised in a barn I know people in Michigan who were "raised in a barn!" And judging from some of the comments I have read this afternoon, maybe we should ask our-selves if we were HT ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 17:07:13 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot Can any of the e-mail gurus on this list explain why John Baugh's mail was distributed 10 days late? He sent it at about the time UGA lost net connectivity for 24 hours or so. During that time they moved a bunch of list mail to tape. I'm guessing that one of the tapes was overlooked when they regained connectivity and was discovered a day or so ago -- that's when a spurt of old mail showed up on WORDS-L, which also runs on the UGA mainframe. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:03:27 EDT From: flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: anymore, needs+pp, V+with Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 29-Oct-1994 08:02pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.bitnet ) From: Beverly Flanigan Dept: Linguistics FLANIGAN Tel No: Subject: anymore, needs+pp, V+with Several comments on several threads: -- Like fellow Northerner (and friend) Bev Hartford, I had never heard positive, or fronted, 'anymore' before going down to Bloomington, Indiana. In fact, after having heard a paper on the many syntactic and semantic constraints on 'anymore' (at the Summer ADS meeting in Albuquerque in 1980, by Frank Parker?), I was amazed to hear every rule confirmed when I moved to Southeastern Ohio. I've heard it from people from as far north as Akron, but no farther; nor have I heard it from "Deep" Southerners. -- Unlike Bev, I don't recall hearing "needs+p.p." in Bloomington, but it is ubiquitous in this part of Ohio, and is by no means limited to the "uneducated townies," contrary to what my out-of-state undergraduates (and some graduates) think. Indeed, one of my graduate students (from Portsmouth, Ohio) said that, rather like Joan Livingston-Webber, she had never heard any alternate form until she came to Ohio University. I like to show my classes a clipping from the local newspaper showing the "Pillar Paintin'" of a church, with the caption "The pillar bases needed replaced because they were rotting." A reader (clearly an outsider, probably a "gownie") wrote in to complain that his second-grader was "having enough trouble speaking English correctly," and that while he "hate[d] to be picky," "maybe the editor needs woke up"; to which the editor replied, "You're right. You're being picky. I admit, though, the caption needs corrected." -- "Come with" and similar constructions are very familiar to this native Minnesotan, and, like others, I associate it with the German and Scandinavian two-part (or separable) verbs used by our ancestors. However, contrary to Allan Denchfield, no Minnesotan (not even Garrison Keillor in his most fun-poking moments) would say "what nationality was settled Minnesota with." BTW, my Indianan-Ohioan son laughs at my use of "come with" but will occasionally say "needs washed," despite his expressed rejection of this region's speech. -- Minor notes: "Set out" and "if he would have" are indeed common in Minnesota; on the latter, I don't know if German or the Scandinavian languages allow this alternate subjunctive form. On equivalents of John Baugh's "Home Training," I was about to offer "raised right," but that's from 20 years in southern Indiana and Ohio; in Minnesota, we were "brought up right." -- Finally, Joan L-W is right about students needing "a good dose of 'nonstandard' speech in high places." I have my grad students replicate Trudgill's test of polylectal comprehension (in _On Dialect_) using Appalachian and other forms, and they regularly get "The sort of thing only a foreigner would say" or "Nobody would say this, not even a foreigner" on the first three expressions listed above, except from respondents who have been here a while, who allow, "I'd never say this, but some others might." It makes for good consciousness-raising. --Beverly Olson Flanigan Received: 29-Oct-1994 08:03pm ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 20:10:55 -0500 From: 00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU Subject: please help with addresses I would like to get in touch with two linguists from Finland: Kari Nahkola and Marja Saanilahti. I spotted their names on the NWAVE program, so I think somebody who was there might be able to help me out with their addresses. Thanks in advance. Vera Horvath ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 12:20:57 -0500 From: Gregory D Waltigney walt0015[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot Perhaps those out there who feel the need to use this forum as a soapbox for determining political correctness could take their drivel elsewhere rather than degenerating into a bunch of blathering "offending idiots"! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1994 to 29 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 15 messages totalling 366 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. offending idiot (7) 2. please help with addresses 3. needs + p.p. 4. Boulder Dam 5. born in a barn 6. OH Language Files (2) 7. forty-leven et similares 8. Boulder Dam ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 21:04:58 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idiot Can any of the e-mail gurus on this list explain why John Baugh's mail was distributed 10 days late? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene I sent one to the list that never got distributed at all - maybe 12 days ago? Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 00:05:11 -0400 From: Abigail Sarah Margulies asm16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: Re: please help with addresses On Sat, 29 Oct 1994 00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU wrote: I would like to get in touch with two linguists from Finland: Kari Nahkola and Marja Saanilahti. I spotted their names on the NWAVE program, so I think somebody who was there might be able to help me out with their addresses. Thanks in advance. Vera Horvath Dr. Kari Nahkola was speaking at Columbia a few weeks ago. I don't know his address, but I can tell you that he's from the University of Tampere, if that helps. Abbie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Oct 1994 21:15:57 -0700 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idiot On Sat, 29 Oct 1994, Gregory D Waltigney wrote: Perhaps those out there who feel the need to use this forum as a soapbox for determining political correctness could take their drivel elsewhere rather than degenerating into a bunch of blathering "offending idiots"! I tend to agree. PC of various sorts is really name-magic. But naming is how we humans create worlds, yes? So there is no way PC arguments will stop. Resign yourself to it. The funny part is that the effort-to-control is comming from people who speak of freedom. But hey, it's still the 20th Century - typical of it. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 11:12:08 -0500 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: needs + p.p. Received: from WVNVMS.WVNET.EDU by WVNVMS.WVNET.EDU (PMDF V4.3-12 #5406) id 01HIT6YWO8Y8OCIVBN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVMS.WVNET.EDU ; Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:57:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 13:54:14 -0400 (EDT) From: UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: need + p.p. To: ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.ccuga.edu Message-id: 01HIT8XLL0YMOCIVBN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVMS.WVNET.EDU Organization: West Virginia Network MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII In German, the verb "brauchen" takes the p.p., instead of the infinitive. Could this be the background for the use of need + p.p. in western Pa, where In German, the verb "brauchen" takes the p.p., instead of the infinitive ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 12:21:24 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: offending idiot Re Birrell's mailing of 30 Oct., it's become almost a truism that liberals are almost as likely as facists to impose thier convictions on their fellow citizens by fiat. That's why some of us who have been proud for decades to call ourselves liberals are able to feel some sympathy for the libertarians Bob Lancaster SUNY Emeritus - English ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 11:22:53 -0500 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: Boulder Dam When it waas first constructed, it was known as Boulder dam and that's how I knewit when I wasin grade school (in the 30's). Also, the queries about whether damn has a bad connotation confuse me. Don't any of you remember the furore when Clark Gable turned, in the final scene of "Gone With the Wind", and said to Scarlett, "Frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn." Very shocking, and titillating, I might add. You-all ( use the term advisedly) make me feel very, very old sometimes. But then, at 72, I can't claim to be a spring chicken, anymore , can I? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 12:37:25 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: born in a barn We have always used "born in a barn" primarily to refer to failure to close the door, but secondarily in reference to any actions that treat the house as if it might as well be a barn--eg., leaving clothes on the floor, shouting and yelling, etc. Hence to some degree the phrase is concerned with "manners." In this regard, by the way, I don't believe the distinction between manners and ethics and morals which Lew Sanbourne made is entirely valid. Truly good manners are not concerned simply with elbows on the table; their rational is surely the need to act with kindness, compassion, and gentility in all the appropriate circumstances. Seen this way, they cover a lot of virtues.ra Bob Lancaster SUNY emeritus - English (Sorry about that - "rationale") ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 14:21:25 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: OH Language Files Has anyone used OH Language Files with students who haven't had any linguistics? thanks, Beth Simon IPFW ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: OH Language Files Has anyone used OH Language Files with students who haven't had any linguistics? thanks, Beth Simon IPFW i've ONLY used it with students who haven't had any linguistics (i.e., in intro classes). i see that although it isn't required for the linguistics courses here, it is a textbook at the university bookstore, so i guess some other dept. is using it for people who aren't even in linguistics classes. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 15:59:07 -0600 From: Gregory D Waltigney walt0015[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot One last (hopefully) time. My comments about taking the PC discussion elsewhere are intended to stress the fact that this is indeed a list of the ADS and not PCDISCUSSIONS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pc.bs.whocares. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:01:47 EST From: Shani Walker s.walker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idiot First I would like to say that all this talk about offending terms is getting on my last and final nerve...what is the big deal? The term "nigger" simply means ignorance, and those who specialize in using this nerve are seldom seen useful for anything else. Being an African-American female in this society has made me come to realize and accept that you can not please everybody. We are all adults here, so let's act like it. On to another subject...have you ever heard of the term "twader"? My friends and I use this term in reference to someone who babbles on and on about irrelevant facts. Have you heard this term use before? If so, in this same reference? Shani Walker Morehead State University Morehead, KY Date: Sat, 22 Oct 1994 10:34:50 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU In Message Thu, 20 Oct 1994 08:56:23 -0700, Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ichips.intel.com writes about frivolous changing of "acceptable" names for non-whites. I am afraid you have trivialized the offense in Chuck's note. As well stated in David Muschell's reply, the offense derives in part from Chuck's grandparents naming their dog a racial/racist epithet. Once posted on the dam, not everybody new "Nigger" was used for a dog. Granted. Besides at the time the dog was named "Nigger," this term was not an accepted designation for Blacks or African Americans. Do you recall any time in the history of the USA when "Nigger" was an acceptable term for African Americans? Sure. It's an acceptable term now, in many quarters. For myself, I do not and would never use it, and cringe when I do hear it used. I will admit that it's not acceptable now among the media and universities, but I know that if many of the readers of this list went off-campus, they would find lots of people using it, especially in the South. For some, there is a negative element, and for others, it's simply the term they've used all they're lives. Who has the right to sit in judgment? I do not know that African Americans would be offended today if you described them as "black" (with or without a cap). I don't get the "cap" reference. And how about negro? While we might find it amusing that names for a particular ethnic group keep changing (and I take no offense at this), the particular incident at issue here is not so amusing (except perhaps in the privacy of our homes). So I can laugh at home, but not in public? Don't ask, don't tell? I doubt that the reason the sign was removed had to do with being politically correct. There is more to the act than some may want to recognize. Chuck has been wise enough to apologize. I, among the people who were offended, accept the apology. But I find your trivialization of the issue ridiculous. All right, then let me use another example having nothing to do with race: idiot, moron, half-wit, mentally retarded, developmentally disabled, special, mentally challenged. Nothing trivial, only individual words. See the connection? =============================================================================== Roger Vanderveen Intel Corporation (503) 696-4331 Hillsboro, OR =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 17:58:37 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idiot --the "Born in a barn" thread makes me think of our family joke (and mild scold) of people who show bad manners at the table with their "boarding house reach." Interesting how these two relics of another era hang on. Anybody else have any examples of lingering archaisms that refer to polite (or impolite) behavior? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 18:39:09 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: forty-leven et similares While watching Newton's Apple, which originates in the TwinCities, Minnesota, one of the characters is talking about the a supermarket price whose amount is unknown. She called it "A Buck Three Eighty." Copyright on the show was 1991, I noticed. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:11:13 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idiot On Sun, 30 Oct 1994, Shani Walker wrote: ... Has anyone heard of the term "twader"? My friends and I use this term in reference to someone who babbles on and on about irrelevant facts. Have you heard this term use before? If so, in this same reference? Shani Walker Morehead State University Morehead, KY OED doesn't support it, but it sure sounds related to twaddle... Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:22:31 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Boulder Dam On Sun, 30 Oct 1994, Martha Howard wrote: When it waas first constructed, it was known as Boulder dam and that's how I knewit when I wasin grade school (in the 30's). MH brings up an interesting variant that we are tracking in the Nevada Language Survey. By the 40's, school children were being taught "Hoover Dam," and probably snickering at the current furor over Clark Gable's "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." During construction, the dam was called "Boulder Dam" in spite of the fact that it was being built in Black Canyon rather than in Boulder Canyon (the original site). Boulder Highway, leading southeast out of Las Vegas, takes one to Boulder City, where I live a few days a week (a welcome respite from Las Vegas). The dam was part of the huge WPA machination and thus known to every construction worker in the western world, who passed the information onto all of his (this is the 1930's) progeny. When the dam was dedicated, the mood of the country (or at least the Congress) had shifted, and the name of the project was changed from Boulder to Hoover. This created local problems. Hoover was not PC, according to local Democratic bosses. It appears there may have been a social split -- Democrats refused to call the damn thing Hoover. Today, in Nevada, you can take a socio-political reading (we think, hypothesis on the way) by whether young people use "Boulder Dam" or "Hoover Dam." People from families who have been in Clark County (Las Vegas area) for more than 25 years use "Boulder." Newbies use Hoover, unless they have been "reached." Local media are careful to make the distinction between Boulder and Hoover. Interestingly, when local politicians want to make a point with SENIOR CITIZENS, a voting bloc, they will carefully refer to Hoover Dam projects. But that sometimes backfires. Recently, a refurbishment of the Visitor's Center cost about three times what the entire dam project cost. Factual: About half of native Clark County residents use Boulder to refer to the structure. Anecdotal: My children grew up here. They use Hoover. They are Mostly Republicans. We can control our sinuses better than we can our children. It gets more detailed and complex, but MH was right when she said whether damn has a bad connotation confuses me. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 1994 to 30 Oct 1994 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. offensiveness (2) 2. offending idioms (4) 3. Relic Idioms 4. Boulder Dam 5. OH Language Files 6. needs+pp 7. Preferred Terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 23:25:00 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: offensiveness Dictionaries are historical records, so editors should cover as much of contemporary language as they can. Even though most people use "Webster's" as a guide to usage, in the long run each dictionary is a slice-of-time representation of how people use language. Posterity is not served well when touchy feelings get in the way of recording facts. As Sali suggested, rather than omitting offensive terms dictionary editors should include them and label them appropriately. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:03:34 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: offending idioms Charles Juengling claimed that "Neger" has "absolutely no negative connotations whatsoever." When I was in Germany in 1978-79, I was told (more than once) of a gaffe committed by a particularly klutzy President of BRD who was giving a speech in some former German colony in Africa and began his address with "Meine Damen und Herren, Liebe Neger,...." The teller of this tale said no more than these words, then rolled his/her eyes and sighed. Could Herr Juengling be misinformed about the way Germans actually use this term? One of the nagging little questions that has occurred to me from time to time is to wonder about 'Negro' coming from Spanish and 'n---' from the French form 'neger'. A good research project for someone; I'm frying other fish for a while. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:21:29 -0800 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Relic Idioms In addition to "born in a barn," I also still refer to that thing that keeps our food cold as an "ice box," although we haven't had one since the sixties. I buy a "bottle of milk," although I haven't seen a glass milk bottle since about the same time (are thos plastic jugs considered bottles?). When we go to the movies and we walk inside the theater, we are going to a "movie house," according to my vocabulary. Here's another :-), I have an 8-track tape player in my car (Oh My God!). Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 04:11:12 -0800 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: Re: Boulder Dam Both "Boulder Dam" and "Hoover Dam" have become so common in American culture, as iconic for "dam," that I'd bet much of the population--possibly a majority--thinks they are two different dams. I understand that, in the 30's, local Democrats referred to the dam as "Dam(n) Hoover." I'd like to hear Thomas Clark clarify/elaborate the sentence "Local media are careful to make the distinction between Boulder and Hoover" (see below), which is intriguing but unclear in context, at least to me. -- Jim ******* On Sun, 30 Oct 1994, THOMAS CLARK wrote: On Sun, 30 Oct 1994, Martha Howard wrote: When it waas first constructed, it was known as Boulder dam and that's how I knewit when I wasin grade school (in the 30's). MH brings up an interesting variant that we are tracking in the Nevada Language Survey. By the 40's, school children were being taught "Hoover Dam," and probably snickering at the current furor over Clark Gable's "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn." During construction, the dam was called "Boulder Dam" in spite of the fact that it was being built in Black Canyon rather than in Boulder Canyon (the original site). Boulder Highway, leading southeast out of Las Vegas, takes one to Boulder City, where I live a few days a week (a welcome respite from Las Vegas). The dam was part of the huge WPA machination and thus known to every construction worker in the western world, who passed the information onto all of his (this is the 1930's) progeny. When the dam was dedicated, the mood of the country (or at least the Congress) had shifted, and the name of the project was changed from Boulder to Hoover. This created local problems. Hoover was not PC, according to local Democratic bosses. It appears there may have been a social split -- Democrats refused to call the damn thing Hoover. Today, in Nevada, you can take a socio-political reading (we think, hypothesis on the way) by whether young people use "Boulder Dam" or "Hoover Dam." People from families who have been in Clark County (Las Vegas area) for more than 25 years use "Boulder." Newbies use Hoover, unless they have been "reached." Local media are careful to make the distinction between Boulder and Hoover. Interestingly, when local politicians want to make a point with SENIOR CITIZENS, a voting bloc, they will carefully refer to Hoover Dam projects. But that sometimes backfires. Recently, a refurbishment of the Visitor's Center cost about three times what the entire dam project cost. Factual: About half of native Clark County residents use Boulder to refer to the structure. Anecdotal: My children grew up here. They use Hoover. They are Mostly Republicans. We can control our sinuses better than we can our children. It gets more detailed and complex, but MH was right when she said whether damn has a bad connotation confuses me. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 07:50:06 -0500 From: Ernest Scatton ESCATTON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: OH Language Files I've used OH Language Files with students who hadn't had linguistics before. It's pretty effective...far better than most of the standard texts, which, in my opinion, just go into most everything far too deeply for intro course for students who are unlikely to go on with linguistics. I switched from LFiles to Finegan this fall for a change; I'll go back to LFiles the next time I teach introduction to linguistics. E. Scatton escatton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax.albany.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 08:34:23 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms In response to Gregory D. Waltigney, who wrote: Perhaps those out there who feel the need to use this forum as a soapbox for determining political correctness could take their drivel elsewhere rather than degenerating into a bunch of blathering "offending idiots"! "Political Correctness" has in itself become an offensive tag, and the vague reference to "those" using this discussion group takes away from the uniqueness of the forum as a kind of instantaneous, on-going conference. For me, the exploration of language has nothing to do with PC. Political correctness implies that there is some kind of agenda behind the user with an intention to bleach language of its dirtiness. The discussion on offending idioms was started innocently enough by Judy Kuster several weeks ago and has, for me, been extremely interesting. Whether or not a sense of prescriptivism exists within some of the responses is irrelevant to the positive use of this new format for interconnectedness. As an admirer of Priestly, I find the descriptive approach more useful, but in describing, it's hard to overlook connotative usage and its impact on language. I have read very little drivel as I've followed (and participated) in this particular discussion and even less blather. Personally, the suggestion to take the debate elsewhere is a kind of prescription in itself--one that would negate the very value of this computer conference. Of course I take the above suggestion seriously, and at a real conference I'd probably laugh it off as a small, crotchety response to the more important issue. But since budgetary constraints probably won't allow me to attend a "real" conference, this electronic space for analyzing, conversing, and "listening" to other fine scholars has become a fine way to breach the isolation of individual institutions. Intuitively, ADS has gotten involved in a thought-provoking line of discussion that mirrors an issue seen being explored in the media with the publication of THE BELL CURVE. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 10:26:32 EST From: "Betty S. Phillips" EJPHILL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ROOT.INDSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: needs+pp I will add my anecdote about needs + pp. As a graduate student at UGA, I had a professor point out that needs + V-ing was the Southern usage, not needs + pp. They both sounded OK to me--a native south Georgian. So I polled my brother and sister: "The car is dirty. It needs ______." Both insisted on "washing" and totally rejected "washed." Then I asked my Wisconsin mother (Platteville, to be specific). She replied with "washed." I could only conclude that I must have been more influenced by my mother's dialect than they had been. A parent's dialect can indeed make a difference. Betty Phillips Eng. Dept. Indiana State U. Terre Haute, IN 47809 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 11:20:53 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: offensiveness Dictionaries are historical records, so editors should cover as much of contemporary language as they can. Even though most people use "Webster's" as a guide to usage, in the long run each dictionary is a slice-of-time representation of how people use language. Posterity is not served well when touchy feelings get in the way of recording facts. As Sali suggested, rather than omitting offensive terms dictionary editors should include them and label them appropriately. I agree with all of this wholeheartedly. However (and I missed Sali's post on this), I do want to point out that most people who use dictionaries-- at least, those who bother to write--do not agree. I've done a good amount of publicity for Random House, and a question that never fails to come up is "Why do you include bad words in the dictionary?" The response is, of course, that they are in common use, and an appropriate label indicating the offensiveness of a word is better than omitting it altogether, and if by omitting offensive words from the dictionary we could eliminate hatred, we would gladly do so, but this is not usually accepted. The single biggest subject that people write about is the word _nigger_. In fact, we probably get more letters about this word than about all other subjects combined. Most letters state that the word doesn't belong in the dictionary no matter what. Some of the letters state, amazingly, that we're defining it incorrectly: _nigger_ does not mean 'black person', it means 'stupid person'. I once got a letter complaining about _jew down_. I responded with the usual previously mentioned formula, and got back a six-page, single-spaced rant, saying that if a long history and common use made a word OK, then it was also OK to burn Jews alive as they worship in temple, since that's what Christians have typically done, and so forth. It was quite unnerving. Naturally, I still don't think that offensive words should be omitted from dictionaries, but arguments that are obvious to us are not necessarily obvious to dictionary users. I'm sure my colleagues at the other college dictionaries have similar experiences. Jesse T Sheidlower Editor Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 13:59:27 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms In Message Mon, 31 Oct 1994 00:03:34 CST, "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: One of the nagging little questions that has occurred to me from time to time is to wonder about 'Negro' coming from Spanish and 'n---' from the French form 'neger'. A good research project for someone; I'm frying other fish for a while. Incidentally, the term "creole" came into English, in apparently 1604, from Spanish, more or less at the same time the term was being borrowed by French (1598). In both cases the term was used in translations of Jose Acostas' HISTORIA NATURAL Y MORAL DES LAS INDIAS (1590), in which the term "criollo" or "crollo" (?) is used for Spaniards born in the West Indies. The Spaniards seem to have played an important role in the development/spread of some colonial terms, another example of which is "mulatto", used also from the late 16th century. (What I report here does not take into account the less clear matter of whether the term originated in Spanish or Portuguese. The historical evidence just shows the term spread from Spanish.) Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 11:16:10 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, David Muschell wrote: In response to Gregory D. Waltigney, who wrote: Perhaps those out there who feel the need to use this forum as a soapbox for determining political correctness could take their drivel elsewhere rather than degenerating into a bunch of blathering "offending idiots"! [Excision here] I have read very little drivel as I've followed (and participated) in this particular discussion and even less blather. Personally, the suggestion to take the debate elsewhere is a kind of prescription in itself--one that would negate the very value of this computer conference. Of course I take the above suggestion seriously, and at a real conference I'd probably laugh it off as a small, crotchety response to the more important issue. But since budgetary constraints probably won't allow me to attend a "real" conference, this electronic space for analyzing, conversing, and "listening" to other fine scholars has become a fine way to breach the isolation of individual institutions. Intuitively, ADS has gotten involved in a thought-provoking line of discussion that mirrors an issue seen being explored in the media with the publication of THE BELL CURVE. David A rare art is here being practiced: gracious praise. Thank you, David! Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:21:17 -0600 From: Michael Linn mlinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]D.UMN.EDU Subject: Preferred Terms We have had a discussion about abusive terms, but I would like to know more about preferred terms. What is the best way to address groups one is a member of. From the above mentioned discussion, it seems that there are regional differences and maybe generational ones. In Northern Minnesota, indigenous people want to be called *American Indian*, not *Native American* and friends at the Gay Men's Center want to be called *queers* (a term I have trouble using with my upbringing) and wear such buttons. Also, most feminists prefer generic terms such as actor and hero instead of gender specific terms such as actress and heroine. What are the preferred terms in other parts of the country? ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 1994 to 31 Oct 1994 ************************************************ .