Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Sep 1997 to 1 Oct 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 321 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mentee (3) 2. Henrickson's "revised" ENCYCLOPEDIA review; P.O.T.U.S. or P.U.S.? (2) 3. "Here's looking at you" 4. yadda, yadda, yadda (5) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 01:28:57 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Re: mentee Mentor, Mentee, Mentos. (I was always wondering what Mentos was!) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 02:26:54 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Henrickson's "revised" ENCYCLOPEDIA review; P.O.T.U.S. or P.U.S.? BOOK REVIEW: THE FACTS ON FILE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS, REVISED AND EXPANDED EDITION by Robert Hendrickson 1997 ed. (previously issued in 1987 as THE HENRY HOLT ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS) 754 pages with index (prior edition was 581 pages without an index) For those who don't want to wade through or can't afford DARE, RHHDAS, and OED, this is an alternative that schoolchildren and nonscholarly libraries will turn to. It's not very good. Sadly, it will be a primary source for many people. It will perpetuate a great deal of misinformation for a long time. The first edition ("'A feast for phrase detectives...that will enliven debates and illuminate issues.'--William Safire" graces the cover) contained errors in nearly every entry. To my eyes in a quick reading, it still sucks. The original preface: "Scholars like Professor Gerald Cohen of the University of Missouri-Rolla devote years and pages enough for a book in scientifically tracking down the origins of a single word, but a great number of the word derivations on record amount to little more than educated guesswork." The added preface: "...has about 25 percent completely new material and now covers some 15,000 word and phrase origins, roughly triple the greatest number in any previous collection of its kind." With prefaces like these, how is it that ALL of my work and nearly all of Professor Cohen's work is NOT here?? Take three entries, for example--although I could continue all day: "CANUCK. _Canuck_ as a derogatory name for a French Canadian has been around since about 1865, with both Canadians and Americans using it." 1865?? Even the worst dictionary can give a better date than this! "PAPARAZZI. (...) Fellini had known a boy nicknamed Paparazzo (Mosquito) during his school days...." Fellini admitted, in an interview, that he got the name from a name in a George Gissing book. "HOT DOG. According to concessionaire Harry Stevens, who first served grilled franks on a split roll in about 1900, the franks were dubbed hot dogs by that prolific word inventor sports cartoonist T. A. Dorgan after he sampled them...." This is a feast for phrase detectives?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- P.O.T.U.S or P.U.S.? In "Word Improvisation" on page 120 of the October 1997 ATLANTIC MONTHLY, J. E. Lighter writes about "Taking Notice of POTUS." POTUS=President Of The United States, a term that started with Franklin D. Roosevelt. There is also FLOTUS=First Lady Of The United States. The cartoon shows Bill Clinton getting a POTUS tattoo on his chest. Wait! Isn't Bill Clinton a PUS? PUS (President of the United States) can be found on page 3, column 3 of The Enquirer (Richmond, VA), 1 December 1814. This is from the Enquirer, 28 January 1815, pg. 3, col. 5: We presume that the State Executive will not proceed to the appointment of the Field or other Officers under the late Law, until they have heard from the P.U.S. But why not try something completely different? Make up a new Gerrymander! I like POTUSOA (President Of The United States Of America). Like a PROTOZOA, it swims around on the issues! Why not? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- ABSOLUTELY CRAZY, BIZARRE, INSANE HAPPENING OF THE WEEK My father died last March. Before that he'd been in a nursing home for five years. He'd been ill for twenty years. This week, John Hancock sent a letter that he's been approved for life insurance. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 00:09:03 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: "Here's looking at you" > The Negro woman who >now shows visitors utensils of Colonial Virginia holds up a drinking vessel >of metal with a glass bottom. According to her, after the drinkers had >finished they looked at each other through the glasses and said, "here's >looking at you." In this context, the toast would mean, "Let's drain the >glasses to the last drop." I had heard that those mugs with a glass bottom originated because of the sneaky practice of throwing a few coins in a drink when the law said that if one were paid by the (British?)government, one worked for the government, and could therefore be conscripted. If you drank the drink, you had (albeit unwittingly) accepted the government's money and were therefore conscripted into the military. With a mug with a glass bottom, you could hold it up and see immediately whether or not there were coins in it. This is supposedly where the toast "Bottoms up" came from. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 07:44:24 -0400 From: Ted Nellen Subject: Re: mentee On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > Mentor, Mentee, Mentos. > > (I was always wondering what Mentos was!) > the sadness when a mentor and mentee parted company. Ted 8-) _o \o_ __| \ / |__ o _ o/ \o/ __|- __/ \__/o \o | o/ o/__ /\ /| | > > / \ ( \ /o\ / ) | (\ / | < \ / \ http://mbhs.bergtraum.k12.ny.us http://www.dorsai.org/~tnellen/ We learn from history that we do not learn anything from history. Trust thyself. The web of our life is of a mingled yarn, good and ill together. Shakespeare ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 08:36:31 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: yadda, yadda, yadda I'm seeing this term showing up in print a lot since "Seinfeld" did a whole show around it. Was this a common term before that episode? Is my perception about its expanded use one that is shared by others. Here's a quote employing the term from a list that I'm on--if anyone wants the exact citation, I'll get it. <> Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 09:50:59 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: yadda, yadda, yadda > I'm seeing this term showing up in print a lot since "Seinfeld" did a whole > show around it. Was this a common term before that episode? Is my > perception about its expanded use one that is shared by others. Here's a > quote employing the term from a list that I'm on--if anyone wants the exact > citation, I'll get it. In my impression it really started to surge about two to four years ago; the _Seinfeld_ example capitalized on an existing trend rather than started one. It has, however, been around for quite a while; we have examples of similar forms (e.g. "yaddada yaddada") to the 1940s if not earlier. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 10:18:03 -0500 From: wachal robert s Subject: Re: mentee I coined 'mentee' too. It's so obvious. I've retired and no longer ment officially. Maybe I should call myself a 'proteger'? Bob Wachal Professor Emeritus (the best rank of all!) Linguistics Dept. / UIowa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:59:26 EDT From: Peter Slomanson Subject: Re: yadda, yadda, yadda Jesse Sheidlower (jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com) writes: > I'm seeing this term showing up in print a lot since > "Seinfeld" did a whole show around it. Was this a > common term before that episode? Is my perception about > its expanded use one that is shared by others. Here's a > quote employing the term from a list that I'm on--if anyone > wants the exact citation, I'll get it. > In my impression it really started to surge about two to four > years ago; the _Seinfeld_ example capitalized on an existing > trend rather than started one. It has, however, been around > for quite a while; we have examples of similar forms (e.g. > "yaddada yaddada") to the 1940s if not earlier. OK Jesse, you just used an interesting construction that I've been noticing for a while. "...capitalized on an existing trend rather than started one..." ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ For me tensed verbs after "rather than" don't work. I would only say "rather than starting one." Actually, past tense verbs sound odder to me than present tense verbs in comparable sentences, but all in all I expect to use verb + ing or a to-less infinitive. Do you have a sense that the above construction is actually quite common? Consider the following two examples (the asterisk means only that the second sentence is ungrammatical in _my_ dialect): He tiptoed away quietly, rather than run(ning) away screaming. * He tiptoed away quietly, rather than ran away screaming. (BTW, I don't interpret "rather than run" and "rather than running" identically in the asterisk-less sentence.) Here's a citation with an overt subject preceding the tensed verb (stranger still!): from Muriel Spark, Memento Mori, p. 199: "He would die, rather than my poor mother got to know about the gross infidelities." Peter Slomanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:39:48 EDT From: Peter Slomanson Subject: Re: yadda, yadda, yadda The first quoted paragraph in my post comes from Greg Pulliam, and the second quoted paragraph from Jesse Sheidlower's response. My apologies to the authors. Peter Slomanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 18:00:08 -0400 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: yadda, yadda, yadda The term is actually and originally "yaddata yadata yadata". It definitely goes back to vaudeville and possibly to the early New York Yiddish theatre. It's sort of "etc., etc., etc." Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 19:25:24 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: Henrickson's "revised" ENCYCLOPEDIA review; P.O.T.U.S. or P.U.S.? On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > --------------------------------------------- > ABSOLUTELY CRAZY, BIZARRE, INSANE HAPPENING OF THE WEEK > > My father died last March. Before that he'd been in a nursing home for > five years. He'd been ill for twenty years. > This week, John Hancock sent a letter that he's been approved for life > insurance. I hate to tell you, but this type of mail is not unusual, even years later. Magazine subscriptions/renewals will be next. After my mother moved to a nursing home, she received a letter that she should report for jury duty. ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Sep 1997 to 1 Oct 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Oct 1997 to 2 Oct 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 215 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Murphy's Law" and aviation oral history (2) 2. ADS luncheon at annual meeting 3. Language Nazi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 02:14:11 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: "Murphy's Law" and aviation oral history "MURPHY'S LAW" BRIEF RESEARCH SUMMARY: FIRST STAGE: Earlier this year, Eddie Murphy starred in the forgettable movie METRO. An AOL board for Cecil Adams ("The Straight Dope") discussed Murphy's Law. I found the 1957 MURPHY'S LAW Navy training film with a Worldcat search, and I posted the findings on ADS-L. I also checked science fiction titles, but the earliest "Murphy's Law" short story title was in AMAZING SCIENCE FACT, SCIENCE FICTION, in 1958. SECOND STAGE: This month, I checked the entries in two newly published books--RHHDAS H-O and Hugh Rawson's UNWRITTEN LAWS: THE UNOFFICIAL RULES OF LIFE AS HANDED DOWN BY MURPHY AND OTHER SAGES. I also checked the publications Aviation Week, Aviation Age, Aviation Mechanics Bulletin, and Approach, as well as relevant entries in the Readers' Guide to Periodical Literature and The New York Times Index. REMAINING PROBLEMS: The main problem is that Murphy (if there is a real Murphy) has never come forward. Why not? Is Murphy still alive? Can we talk to him if he is?? The other problem is that "Murphy's Law" allegedly started in 1949, but the first citation is in 1955. George Nichols, chief of the Northrop crew, explained (in the late 1970s) that Lt. Col. John P. Stapp had used "Murphy's Law" in a press conference. I found no such quotation in any Readers' Guide "Stapp" citation. It's important to nail "Murphy's Law" down because (1) it's a widely used Americanism, (2) we probably CAN nail it down, (3) the people involved might still be alive, and (4) it was my father's favorite phrase. We continue.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- "AVIATION PROJECT" OF THE ORAL HISTORY RESEARCH OFFICE OF COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY This week, I read the transcript of "The reminiscences of Col. John Paul Stapp" (taped May 1960 with interviewer Kenneth Leish) from the Aviation Project, Columbia University Oral History Collection, pt. 2, no. 178. It's 29 pages long. There is NO "Murphy's Law." Page 28 has this: "Interviewer's note: Colonel Stapp was exhausted during the interview from lack of sleep, and fell asleep several times while talking." Oh well. "The reminiscences of Roscoe Turner" (the first person to fly a Sikorski plane) doesn't have "Murphy's Law" either, but nevertheless has other useful aviation terms. They deserve recording: Page 6: Q: You also did something called "the swing of death." What was that? TURNER: Well, that was a man that would walk out on the wings of the airplane. We had--they called themselves stunt men, they would walk around on the wings of the airplane, and go down on rope ladders. The first man ever to do that was a fellow by the name of Lieutenant (Lockleader?) (sic). He originated the idea when he was in the air service, back in 1918. Those are the names of people you never heard of now. Then, of course, after him came along a number of them. Q: How did it work exactly? Can you describe it? TURNER: Well, his original stunt was to change from one plane to another--which was the forerunner of all of the things that we're doing today. I mean, we're transferring materials and gasoline and fuel from one plane to another. That was the beginning of it. We showed that these things could be done, but that was a rather crude way of doing it, transferring yourself, you see. Page 12: Q: You had a flight from Los Angeles to Reno that you called the Alimony Special. Can you tell me about that? TURNER: It was an airline. It was the first highspeed airline in the world. "Murphy's Law" allegedly started at Edward's Air Force Base. In "The Reminiscences of Maj. Gen. Albert Boyd," page 10, he says, "In January 1950, we established the flight test center. We named the base for Capt. Glen Edwards, the pilot who was killed in the experimental B-49. It was then formally established as the Air Force Flight Test Center. I was the first Commander, and I remained there until 1952." Unfortunately, Boyd doesn't give us Murphy, either. The "Elvis Year" for John Paul Stapp was in June 1954. He was mentioned in The New York Times, Life, the Science News-Letter, Science Digest, and on the cover of Collier's weekly. The 25 June 1954 Collier's cover shows Stapp in his sled, with the caption "FASTEST MAN on EARTH." The article's caption on page 25 is: "Twenty-seven times Dr. John P. Stapp has roared down the track aboard his rocket sled in a ride so dangerous that observers have called him one of the world's bravest men." The article continues on pages 26, 27, 28, and 29. Page 28 mentions George Nichols of Northrop. Page 27 mentions the experimental runs at Edwards Air Force Base, California, from 1947 until mid-1951. It's a great, in-depth article on Col. John Stapp. Murphy's Law is never mentioned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- A WILD GUESS I still have to check the U. S. NAVAL AVIATION SAFETY BULLETIN, but I really don't think it would account for the spread of "Murphy's Law" in 1954-1956. The spread should have started about June 1954, when that Collier's came out. But I couldn't find a good, nationally popular print source! If I had to guess, I would say that television did it. If I had to guess the program, it would be WHAT'S MY LINE?. My guess is that sometime in 1954 or 1955, Col. John Stapp was booked on WHAT'S MY LINE?. Perhaps he stumped the panel about who he was and what he did. At the end of the show, he explained all that. One panelist asked about the dangers of Stapp's job and what would have happened if things went wrong, and then, before millions of television viewers, came Murphy! Instant, nationwide dissemination. An Americanism is born! Back to the Museum of Television and Radio! Where's Kitty Carlisle Hart when you need her?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 14:16:43 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: ADS luncheon at annual meeting To those planning to attend our annual meeting in New York City in January - For years we've enjoyed an annual luncheon at our annual meeting. We've had good food and good talk at the good hotels where we've stayed. In Toronto, San Diego, Chicago and other places (even New York last time around) the cost per diner (luncher?) has been about $25. But at the Grand Hyatt, where we reside under the Linguistic Society's umbrella in January 1998, it turns out that luncheon prices *begin* at $50 a head (a plate?). I'd like to take a quick poll to see what action you'd prefer. If you plan to attend the annual meeting, please let me know your choice: 1) pay $50 a person for lunch. After all, it's New York. 2) look for a $25-30 lunch somewhere nearby, outside the hotel. After all, it's right by Grand Central Station. 3) cancel the luncheon. If you care to discuss these options, or suggest others, send your reply to the whole list; but if you're simply casting a vote, just send it to me. Thanks for your ideas! - Allan Metcalf Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 19:23:01 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn Subject: Re: "Murphy's Law" and aviation oral history "Letter, we get letters, we get stacks and stacks of letters..." Thought folks here might find this letter interesting: A couple of things for the collection: [1] Noted "Generica" in your book, Jargon Watch. I've been using the term "Generican" for about 15 years to describe the accent which most newscasters and midwesterners have -- none. I've also used it to describe people with no traceable ethnic background. [2] Jithead -- an international transportation term used to describe people-- inspired by all the shipping industry publications--who order goods on a "JIT" or "just in time" basis, and who freak a streak when told that they didn't order early enough. Usage: "The guy should have ordered it a month sooner. He's a real jithead." [3] Billy Lading -- any one of a thousand L.A.-based Asian forwarding companies who has a one-person, one-room office, a one-line phone which is switchable to a fax or modem line, and who is so low-budget they even steal office supplies (like paper clips) from incoming documentation. Regards, Warren S. Levine Seattle, Washington -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ (Putnam) and _Internet Power Toolkit_ (Ventana) Author _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Oct 1997 22:15:18 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Language Nazi This is from the syndicated cartoon "The Modern World" by Tom Tomorrow, 10-1-97, tomorrow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com: PANEL 1: "Feminazis" would like women to have the same opportunities in life as men. (Two women are shown offering their opinions.) WOMAN ONE: Equal pay for equal work--that sort of thing. WOMAN TWO: If it's not too much TROUBLE...? PANEL 2: "Smoking Nazis" would rather breathe clean air than secondhand cigarette smoke. (Two men are shown in a restaurant.) NONSMOKER: Terribly sorry to be a BOTHER about this. SMOKER: Fascist. PANEL 3: The ACTUAL Nazis systematically slaughtered six million innocent men, women and children. (A bulldozer is shown moving dead bodies from the Nazi holocaust. A gruesome sight.) (NOTE: Six million is the Jewish number. The total was much more--ed.) PANEL 4: (Two characters are talking about this strip.) CHARACTER ONE: ...I really hate Nazi analogies. CHARACTER TWO: What are you--some kind of LANGUAGE NAZI? ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Oct 1997 to 2 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Oct 1997 to 3 Oct 1997 There are 15 messages totalling 705 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Language Nazi (2) 2. ADS luncheon at annual meeting (2) 3. pop one's fingers (6) 4. Editing Opportunity 5. Re[2]: pop one's fingers 6. Re[2]: I found it! 7. Hi, I though you mught like this 8. Television & Radio research; T.T.F.N. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 02:59:33 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn Subject: Re: Language Nazi In a message dated 10/3/97 2:15:50 AM, Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: >This is from the syndicated cartoon "The Modern World" by Tom Tomorrow, >10-1-97, tomorrow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com: > >PANEL 1: >"Feminazis" would like women to have the same opportunities in life as men. [...deletia...] >CHARACTER TWO: What are you--some kind of LANGUAGE NAZI? Has anyone made a list of all the "[blank] nazis" in popular usage? There must be dozens. In Jargon Watch, we've had "body nazis" (fitness obsessives who look down on the not-as-fit), "white light nazis" (new agers) and "rural nazification" (the growing number of militias, klan and skinhead groups, etc.). -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author of the _Happy Mutant Handbook_ and _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 07:31:06 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: Language Nazi I would guess that "feminazi" was the original coinage, and that the "soup Nazi" on Seinfeld popularized the usage. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 08:03:32 +0000 From: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: ADS luncheon at annual meeting No, no. Don't cancel the luncheon! I would vote for finding another place to have it. I'd even go for $35, if necessary, but $50 is silly. I believe there are many excellent restaurants in Manhattan with reasonable prices. And some of them must have separate rooms that people can book for an event. I'll ask my NY friends, if that will help, and other people must know of places too. Victoria Neufeldt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 09:32:57 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: pop one's fingers We didn't ask this question in the DARE questionnaire, but anecdotal evidence suggests that "to pop one's fingers," meaning 'to snap one's fingers' (i.e., sliding the middle finger quickly off the thumb onto the palm, making a snapping sound) is found chiefly in the South. Are some of you familiar with the term? When? Where? Thanks-- Joan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 10:51:33 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: ADS luncheon at annual meeting I'm not eager to cancel the luncheon, but $50 does sound outrageous, even for NYC. What ARE the chances for finding a place nearby that would do us for less? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 11:16:33 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: pop one's fingers At 09:32 AM 10/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >We didn't ask this question in the DARE questionnaire, but anecdotal >evidence suggests that "to pop one's fingers," meaning 'to snap one's >fingers' (i.e., sliding the middle finger quickly off the thumb onto the >palm, making a snapping sound) is found chiefly in the South. Are some of >you familiar with the term? When? Where? > >Thanks-- > >Joan > "Finger Poppin" is an R&B song from the early to mid 60's credited to Ike Turner. The thrust of the song is that the male singer used to worry about what a female partner did, but doesn't care any more. In the version of the song I've heard (which is not Turner's), the key line says something like "finger poppin' on you" (note the construction of the object, which may or may not be a common one). Turner was born in NW Mississippi in 1931. I've never heard "to finger pop" other than in that song, but I've only lived in the northeast and midwest of the US. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:19:13 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: pop one's fingers Some West Africans, Ghanaians especially, "pop their fingers," as it's called, by flipping or snapping the wrist so that the index finger "pops" sharply against the thumb and middle-finger. The gesture expresses surprise or amazement. I've not seen it done here, or even so referred to, but like West African tooth-sucking (expressive of contempt) it may have made it across the Atlantic into the south or the Caribbean. On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: > At 09:32 AM 10/3/97 -0600, you wrote: > >We didn't ask this question in the DARE questionnaire, but anecdotal > >evidence suggests that "to pop one's fingers," meaning 'to snap one's > >fingers' (i.e., sliding the middle finger quickly off the thumb onto the > >palm, making a snapping sound) is found chiefly in the South. Are some of > >you familiar with the term? When? Where? > > > >Thanks-- > > > >Joan > > > > "Finger Poppin" is an R&B song from the early to mid 60's credited to Ike > Turner. The thrust of the song is that the male singer used to worry about > what a female partner did, but doesn't care any more. In the version of the > song I've heard (which is not Turner's), the key line says something like > "finger poppin' on you" (note the construction of the object, which may or > may not be a common one). Turner was born in NW Mississippi in 1931. I've > never heard "to finger pop" other than in that song, but I've only lived in > the northeast and midwest of the US. > > Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 14:45:15 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves Subject: Editing Opportunity Editors and/or lexicographers who meet ALL of the following criteria are invited to inquire about the possibility of doing freelance editing, possibly leading to other related tasks. Editors chosen will be compensated on a competitive hourly rate of pay and have the possibility = of working on a long-term, interesting project. You must: 1. be computer literate; be able to quickly learn a proprietary Windows-based software package and work on screen; have an IBM-compatible= PC, preferably with a Pentium chip and a CD-ROM drive; and have e-mail capability. 2. be a native speaker of American English. 3. have some editing experience, preferably in the field of reference or lexicography. 4. be sensitive to the differences between British and American diction, orthography, grammar, and usage. 5. be able to work at least 15, and up to 30 hours per week. Please do not reply unless you meet ALL of the qualifications. Please do not respond to the list (I am not reading it at present) but to my e-mail= address, which appears below. Please do not forward this announcement to other lists, though you are welcome to forward it to any qualified individuals you may know. = Interested individuals may reply by e-mail with a cover letter highlighti= ng pertinent experience and qualifications, and/or a CV or resume. These documents may be zipped or uuencoded to insure intact delivery if you wis= h. If you send word processor files, MS Word is preferred. Reply to: OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com Thank you! Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:23:20 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: pop one's fingers At 02:19 PM 10/3/97 -0400, you (Robert Ness ) wrote: >Some West Africans, Ghanaians especially, "pop their fingers," as it's >called, by flipping or snapping the wrist so that the index finger "pops" >sharply against the thumb and middle-finger. The gesture expresses >surprise or amazement. I've not seen it done here, or even so referred to, >but like West African tooth-sucking (expressive of contempt) it may have >made it across the Atlantic into the south or the Caribbean. The gesture you describe (where one puts the tips of the thumb and middle-finger together and then snaps the first finger against them by sharply moving the wrist downwards) is universally used in Brasil to express surprise or excitement, positive or negative. Brasilians are unfamiliar with the way people from the US snap fingers (as described by Joan Houston Hall in the very first post in this thread), and I have never seen it done the Brasilian way in the US though that doesn't mean it hasn't been. Anyway, I didn't mention in my prior post on the "finger pop" phrase that the context of the song I cited seems to suggest that the gesture expresses contempt or disdain (i.e., the popper/snapper doesn't care about the person or situation s/he is popping or snapping at). See also OED thrip v. (with citations back to the 16C) and "finger-snap" (under finger n.) for the idea of snapping one's fingers in contempt or to express worthlessness etc. An electronic search of OED2 for various ways that "to *pop* the/one's fingers" might have showed up there yielded nothing. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 15:16:00 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: pop one's fingers I polled my undergraduate intro to linguistics class at Auburn (Alabama), but none had "pop" to mean "snap." About a third of them used "pop" with "knuckles" or "fingers" to mean 'to crack one's knuckles (fingers)'. Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Fri, 3 Oct 1997, Joan Houston Hall wrote: > We didn't ask this question in the DARE questionnaire, but anecdotal > evidence suggests that "to pop one's fingers," meaning 'to snap one's > fingers' (i.e., sliding the middle finger quickly off the thumb onto the > palm, making a snapping sound) is found chiefly in the South. Are some of > you familiar with the term? When? Where? > > Thanks-- > > Joan > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:25:59 CST From: Ellen Johnson Subject: Re[2]: pop one's fingers I have heard "pop your fingers" to mean snap them, and I think it was from my grandfather, who has been dead for maybe 10 years. I am from Atlanta, but he was from rural West Georgia. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 16:55:34 CST From: Ellen Johnson Subject: Re[2]: I found it! And for another bit of anecdotal evidence: the below-described is a "stoop" in my lexicon, supposedly a Hudson Valley term, not a southernism. Ellen bungalow-apron is the little porch outside a small house, usually with 2-3 steps and a small roof or overhang...not big enough to be a big porch for chairs where people could sit and chew the fat (visit). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 17:59:46 EST From: read[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ITOVER.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Hi, I though you mught like this Please read this over carefully and make sure to follow the directions EXACTLY, and I guarantee that it will pay off big!!! Print it out and read it over and over if you have to, until you fully understand it. As a sales professional you may appreciate this. My name is Rob Gainer and the information you are reading is real - it has happened to me. About 6 months ago I lost my sales position in the software industry. 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Step (3) Having made the required changes in the NAME list, save it as a text (.txt) file in it's own directory to be used with whatever email program you like. Again, REPORT #3 will tell you the best methods of bulk emailing and acquiring email lists. Step (4) Email a copy of the entire program (all of this is very important) to everyone whose address you can get your hands on. Start with friends and relatives since you can encourage them to take advantage of this fabulous money-making opportunity. That's what I did. And they love me now, more than ever. Then, email to anyone and every one! Use your imagination! You can get email addresses from companies on the internet who specialize in email mailing lists. These are very cheap, 100,000 addresses for around $80.00. One of the reports will tell you where to get this deal from. IMPORTANT: You won't get a good response if you use an old list, so always request a FRESH, NEW list. You will find out where to purchase these lists when you order the four 4 REPORTS. ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ALL ORDERS!!! REQUIRED REPORTS ***Order each REPORT by NUMBER and NAME*** ***********ALWAYS SEND A SELF-ADDRESSED, STAMPED ENVELOPE*********** AND $5 CASH FOR EACH ORDER REQUESTING THE SPECIFIC REPORT BY NAME AND NUMBER ***REPORT #1 "HOW TO MAKE $250,000 THROUGH MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #1 FROM: Mike Burton W7078 Discovery Dr. Fond du Lac, Wi 54937 ***REPORT #2 "MAJOR CORPORATIONS AND MULTI-LEVEL SALES" ORDER REPORT #2 FROM: COMPUTECHNOLOGIES 6125 BARDSTOWN RD. LOUISVILLE, KY 40291 ***REPORT#3 "SOURCES FOR THE BEST MAILING LISTS" ORDER REPORT #3 FROM: DEBBIE LOMBARDO 4326 PEPPERGRASS STREET MIDDLEBURG, FL 32068-5327 ***REPORT #4 "EVALUATING MULTI-LEVEL SALES PLANS" ORDER REPORT #4 FROM: CARTER ENTERPRISES PO BOX 242393 CHARLOTTE, NC 28224-2393 CONCLUSION I am enjoying my fortune that I made by sending out this program. You too, will be making money in 90 to 120 days, if you follow the SIMPLE STEPS outlined in this mailing. However, very few people reach financial independence, because when opportunity knocks, they choose to ignore it. It is much easier to say "NO" than "YES", and this is the question that you must answer. Will YOU ignore this opportunity or will you take advantage of it? If you do nothing, you have indeed missed something and nothing will change. Please re-read this material, this is a special opportunity. If you have any questions, please feel free to write to the sender of this information or email mike_burton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hotmail.com You will get a prompt and informative reply. The method is simple. I sell thousands of people a product for $5 that costs me pennies to produce and distribute I should also point out that this program is legal and everyone who participates WILL make money. This is not a chain letter or pyramid scheme. At times you have probably received chain letters, asking you to send money, on faith, but getting NOTHING in return, NO product what-so-ever! Not only are chain letters illegal, but the risk of someone breaking the chain makes them quite unattractive. You are offering a legitimate product to your people. After they purchase the product from you, they reproduce more and resell them. It's simple free enterprise. As you learned from the enclosed material, the PRODUCT is a series of four 4 FINANCIAL AND BUSINESS REPORTS. The information contained in these REPORTS will not only help you in making your participation in this program more rewarding, but will be useful to you in any other business decisions you make in the years ahead. You are also buying the rights to reprint all of the REPORTS, which will be ordered from you by those to whom you mail this program. The concise one and two page REPORTS you will be buying can easily be reproduced at a local copy center for a cost off about 3 cents a copy. Best wishes with the program and Good Luck! TIPS FOR SUCCESS Send for your four 4 REPORTS immediately so you will have them when the orders start coming in. When you receive a $5 order, you MUST send out the product/service to comply with US Postal and Lottery laws. Title 18 Sections 1302 and 1341 specifically state that: "A PRODUCT OR SERVICE MUST BE EXCHANGED FOR MONEY RECEIVED." WHILE YOU WAIT FOR THE REPORTS TO ARRIVE: 1. Name your new company. You can use your own name if you desire. 2. Get a post office box (preferred). 3. Edit the names and addresses on the program. You must remember, your name and address go next to REPORT #1 and the others all move down one, with the fourth one being bumped OFF the list. 4. Obtain as many email addresses as possible to send until you receive the information on mailing list companies in REPORT #3. 5. Decide on the number of programs you intend to send out. The more you send, and the quicker you send them, the more money you will make. 6. After mailing the programs, get ready to fill the orders. 7. Copy the four 4 REPORTS so you are able to sent them out as soon as you receive an order. IMPORTANT: ALWAYS PROVIDE SAME-DAY SERVICE ON ORDERS YOU RECEIVE! 8. Make certain the letter and reports are neat and legible. YOUR GUARANTEE The check point which GUARANTEES your success is simply this: you must receive 15 to 20 orders for REPORT #1. This is a must!!! If you don't within two weeks, email out more programs until you do. Then a couple of weeks later you should receive at least 100 orders for REPORT #2, if you don't, send out more programs until you do. Once you have received 100 or more orders for REPORT #2, (take a deep breath) you can sit back and relax, because YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE AT LEAST $50,000. Mathematically it is a proven guarantee. Of those who have participated in the program and reached the above GUARANTEES-ALL have reached their $50,000 goal. Also, remember, every time your name is moved down the list you are in front of a different REPORT, so you can keep track of your program by knowing what people are ordering from you. IT'S THAT EASY, REALLY, IT IS!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:12:54 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Re: pop one's fingers "There she was just a-walkin' down the street Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do Poppin' her fingers and shufflin' her feet Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do." The key here is to search for "finger poppin'," not "finger popping." With some stupid computers it makes all the difference. A search through the card file at NYPL Lincoln Center shows "Finger Poppin'," Horace Silver, composer (music only), 1958, catalogued at JNF 78-98. "Before I knew it she was walkin' next to me Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do Holdin' my hand just as natural as can be Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do." R.E.M.'s song "Action" has "I'm finger poppin'/You do the dancin'/You do the skakin'/You're looking right now." The Grateful Dead's song "Money, Money" has "My baby gives me the finance blues/Tax me to the limit of my revenues/Here she comes finger-poppin', clickety-click/She says furs or diamonds, take your pick." Hank Ballard was (is?) a performer who was elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 1990. In 1960, his song "Finger Poppin' Time" made #2 on the R&B chart and #7 on the Pop chart. "Now we're together nearly every single day Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do We're so happy and that's how we're gonna stay Singin' do-wah diddy-diddy down diddy-do." THAT'S IT! NO MORE "FINGER-POPPING"! NO MORE "DO WAH DIDDY"! THAT'S NOT HOW WE'RE GONNA STAY! GET OUTTA HERE!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 23:52:49 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Television & Radio research; T.T.F.N. MUSEUM OF TELEVISION & RADIO Television and Radio are very important, but you won't see many OED or RHHDAS citations from their programs. Perhaps that will change, but right now, television and radio language research is very difficult. I went to the Museum of Televison & Radio today. I typed in "Stapp." Nothing came up. Maybe John Paul Stapp said "Murphy's Law" on a radio or televison program in the 1950s, and maybe he didn't. We may never know. Stapp made the New York Times, Time, Newsweek, Life, Collier's--every important national print publication. Does this mean he never did a single radio or television program? TV producers saw all those headlining stories of a guy defying death at speeds of 600 miles per hour and all said "it's not for us"?? "We don't have every tv and radio program," said someone connected with the Museum. No shit! Most of the "What's My Line?" and "I've Got a Secret" shows are not indexed, and many are missing. The "What's My Line?" shows were indexed by "Mystery Guest" only, but each half-hour show had two other guests (three guests each show). The "mystery guests" were mainly entertainment types, such as Jack Benny or Zsa Zsa Gabor. Stapp was not there as a "mystery guest." That doesn't mean he was never on the show as a regular guest. Surely, some scientists appeared on "What's My Line?"? These shows are in the Museum's archives and take a week to retrieve. I don't even know what shows to request. TV and Radio research really sucks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- T.T.F.N. No, not "Ted Turner's Financial Network." "Ta-Ta For Now." I found this phrase in several computer books, but no book states T.T.F.N.'s origin. Usually I watched Barney or Thomas with my nephew (who has autism), but a few times this summer we watched "Winnie the Pooh." You people out there with kids, get out your WINNIE THE POOH AND TIGGER TOO! TIGGER: T.T.F.N.! Ta-Ta For Now!! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Oct 1997 to 3 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Oct 1997 to 4 Oct 1997 here are 4 messages totalling 271 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. lunch (3) 2. ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:00:19 -0500 From: Michael Newman Subject: lunch I missed out on the earlier part of the this lunch discussion--compulsive deleting, but I've lived in NY off and on for years, and I would never dream of spending $50 for lunch even in a large group, even in midtown Manhattan. NY is a cheap city to eat in, I swear, as long as you don't limit yourself to certain types of food in specific areas. Besides to get interesting dialects, your best off outside of expensive places. On the other hand, they may not be English. Since I'm not looking for a room, I haven't been paying attention to the location, but if it's at the Hilton, Sheraton, or Marriot, there are any number of reasonably priced places 3 blocks west on 9th Ave, some more expensive Italian, and less expensive (though rather divey appearing) Dominican or other Latin American types. Of course these are smaller. Then there are a variety of Brazilian and Japanese around in the $25 range. It depends on the number of people, and how far they will want to go. If people want to switch from Lunch to Dinner, it would be easy to go to Chinatown, even for a large crowd. There are some enormous restaurants; you could easily fit the whole convention, with room for the LSA. There also might be suitably sized places in Harlem; I think Sylvia's has a banquet room. Assistant Professor of Applied Linguistics Dept. of Linguistics and Communications Disorders Queens College/CUNY mn24[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is6.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 12:23:06 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: lunch How great to hear Micahel Neswmann's advice o lunch in lower-midtown Manhattan. Leet us eat Brazilian or Dominican! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 17:04:28 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Re: lunch On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: > How great to hear Micahel Neswmann's advice o lunch in lower-midtown > Manhattan. Leet us eat Brazilian or > Dominican! Hear hear! Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 23:15:39 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine Actor Armand Assante--my al dente friend--won the Emmy Award last month for his performance in HBO's GOTTI. My dentist and I were so proud. But did anyone see Assante's rambling acceptance speech? He thanked his girlfriend who had a pierced navel, his agent who was bald: "...And last but not least, I'd like to thank my dentist, who's the dentist for Barry Popik, who's gay." O.K., O.K., I made that part up. ONE: THE HOMOSEXUAL MAGAZINE started in January 1953 in Los Angeles. It's one of the earliest magazines of its kind. The title comes from a quote by Thomas Carlyle, "A mystic band of brotherhood makes all men one." Surprising, the RHHDAS never includes any citations from ONE. Here are some. ----"GAY"---- Returning to the origin of "Gay," I found no evidence that the longrunning column "Boy Dates Girl" by Gay Head in the Scholastic Magazines had any influence. The name "Gay Head" was never used. However, "gay cat" was never used, either. "Gay" probably comes from the phrase "the gay life," which was used often in ONE. May 1953, pg. 18. "Gay" friends; "gay" people. ("Gay" in quotes like this--ed.) May 1953, pg. 22, col. 2. "Gay" bar. ("Gay" in quotes.) May 1953, pg. 24. "Every voyage a Gay Cruise..." (parody--ed.) July 1953, pg. 18. "Gay" life. ("Gay" again in quotes. The article mentions "'gay' life" four times.) September 1953, pg. 12. "Gay life" (in quotes) in col. 1, "gay" bars (in quotes) in col. 2. November 1953, pg. 15. "THE CHRISTMAS ISSUE WILL BE NOTHING BUT FICTION AND FUN! WE'VE SELECTED FIVE OF THE FINEST SHORT STORIES ON THE SUBJECT EVER TO COME OUR WAY. THEY'RE HILARIOUS AND MOVING, MAD AND TOUCHING...AND GAY, GAY, GAY!" February 1954, page 12-13. Article describes "gay" men and women (in quotes), "homo" (in quotes), "swishing around" (in quotes), "gay" society, "gay" people, and "gay" gatherings (all in quotes). March 1954, pg. 19. "GAY This page begins a test offers a sample and otherwise dips its toe in a tempting lagoon that makes mad all who swim therein GAY will be light-hearted, light-headed and a bit off-and-on whenever the space can be spared. It will be pictorial, too, (phabulous photos) fictional and satirical and just plain sabbatical. Let us know if we should continue it?" ("Gaylord Pedestrian" comic followed--ed.) January 1956, pg. 16. "Gay life in the neon-charged paradise land of the cherry blossoms...." ----"GAY GIRL"---- February 1954, page 11. "Gay girl" is used in quotes. "Lesbian" was used infrequently. "Dyke" was not used in this publication's early years. ----"BUTCH"---- October 1953, page 12, col. 2. (Letter.) "...'Egg-sized cuff-link type who just can't be bothered. The majority of your readers, I am sure, are of the more substantial type, who even by their 'butch' appearance eliminate themselves from the category your writer (though--unquote!--I suspect he's on the editorial staff, just up to all this for the hell of it!) so generously relegates us all to. Homosexuals are people. Period. Swish or butch, they ARE worth bothering with...." ----"HOMOPHILE"---- March 1955, page 8. No "homphobes" here, but "homophiles" are. The paper "The Homophile in Society" is reprinted here; it was delivered in its original form to the International Congress for Sexual Equality at its 1953 session in Amsterdam by its author, Prof. G. Th. Kempe, PH.D. of Utrecht, Holland. OED's first "homophile" citation is 1960. (OED otherwise does a fine job--ed.) February 1956, page 22. "The Male Homophile in Black Africa" by Tery. This article is from ARCADIE (a French gay publication), November 1954. ----"OUT"---- December 1954, pg. 18+. "Coming Out Party" is the title of a story. February 1955, pg. 36. "OUT of the past" is the headline of "Reprints from the classics; biographies of famous homosexuals." Plato is the first in the series. ----"PLAYING THE QUEERS"---- November 1954, page 18. "'FROM HERE TO ETERNITY' HURTS HOMOSEXUALS." (Title--ed.) "...The homosexuals maintain that Mr. Jones promotes, in a subtle way, the professions known as 'Playing the queers.' If there has been an increase in 'The Vilest of the Rackets,' as Esquire magazines in a series of articles several years ago referred to blackmail, jackrolling, and other criminal practices, some instigation of it might well stem from those who read the book and 'got ideas,' as it certainly maps out a blueprint for preying on this unfortunately defenseless and weak group of citizens. "Quite a sizeable portion of the story is devoted to discussion of 'the queers,' as soldiers refer to them. This of course makes sensational reading in a book that is full of the sensational--'Boldest book of our times' they say--but it is rather hard on those that are put in such a bad light. "In one chapter in particular of 'From Here to Eternity' we are told of the trick used by the heroes Prew and Maggio to roll their host of his money. Winning the confidence of Hal and Tommy, the two homosexuals, and enjoying their host's liquor and hospitality, the soldiers then proceed to frighten Hal into paying off. He offers $5, $10, $20, $30, and finally $40 before Prew will agree to leave the place and keep his accomplice, Maggio, from being picked up by the military police. They felt quite pleased at earning a little money in such an easy way." (So much for "Don't ask, don't tell."--ed.) ----"THIRD SEX"---- October 1954, page 17. Undated article by Jack W. Roberts of the Miami Daily News: "In California the homosexuals have organized to resist interference by police. They have established their own magazine and are constantly crusading for recognition as a 'normal' group, a so-called 'third sex.'" ----"HOMOSEXUAL MARRIAGE"---- August 1953. An article on "homosexual marriage" appeared in this issue, followed by other letters, articles, and notes. ----"FAIRY FINGER"---- May 1955, page 11. From "The Margin of Masculinity" by James Douglas Margin: "Learn to control the little finger. The 'fairy finger,' I've heard it called. Brawny truck drivers can stop at their diners and while sipping coffee hoist their little fingers to the ceiling--and get away with it. But you can't, Johnnie. If you let you little finger extend to give natural balance to a heavy cup of coffee, you will let it pretend to give balance to the lightest things you handle. And that exquisite mannerism will be noticed. So tuck the offending member well in toward the palm, and learn to _keep_ it there." ----"HEN PARTY/STAG PARTY"---- April 1955, page 39. From "The Feminist Viewpoint:" "The 'hen party' arouses no suspicion at all, but 'stag parties' are not generally held in bachelor apartments." ----"PERVERTERS"---- July 1955, page 5. From "tangents/news & views" by Dal McIntire: "But where (Senator) Kefauver chose to go easy with these 'perverters' his audience snatched up the task. ----"QUEER ALLEY"---- September 1955, page 8. From "tangents/ news & views" by Dal McIntire: "In Santa Monica, Cal., a beachfront block between a bathhouse and two gay bars has been a hot issue. Gordon Mackey, columnist for a weekly paper, decided in January 'Queers' were giving his city a bad name. 'Close Queer Alley!' became his battlecry." ---(VARIOUS TERMS)---- October 1955, pages 7-8. "Watch Your Language!" by Anthony Sande includes "deviation," "homosexual," "illness," and "invert." ----"JESUS JAZZERS"---- Mach 1956, page 6, col. 2. Dal McIntire's column mentions "Group of warbling evangelists ('Jesus Jazzers,' the inmates called them) long wont to serenade their captive audience from the corridors of Kings County Jail, Seattle, till prisoner complained that by being forced to listen he was denied religious freedom, and that prison rules forbade services outside chapel. Judge Findley, sidestepping the constitutional question, upheld rule limiting services to chapel, with voluntary attendance." ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Oct 1997 to 4 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Oct 1997 to 5 Oct 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 754 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. dialect in literature (3) 2. ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 11:42:14 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald Subject: dialect in literature Hi - I have a question, or a couple of questions, I'd like to ask readers of this list. I'm writing a study of the representation of English -language dialects in American literature towards the end of the 19th century. What I'd like to know is, 1) are there works of American literature whose representation you particularly admire or disdain? 2) are there good contemporary scholarly essays on the representation of dialect? 3) are there interesting 19th-century views on the representation of dialect? I'm not at the beginning of this study, but I'm not at the end of it either. I know Sumner Ives' "A Theory of Literary Dialect," and the remarks about the representation of dialect in Raymond Williams' _The Country and the City_, and the remarks made by writers like Henry James and William Dean Howells. I'd be grateful for any pointers, citations, or opinions. Best, Larry Rosenwald, Wellesley College ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:32:57 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: dialect in literature I did an article a number of years ago on Eudora Welty's use of dialect; thereferences llist could be useful to you (and, I'd like to think, the article). If you would like to see a copy, let me know, and I'll send you an offprint. However, I am leaving today for 10 days out of the country, so I won't be able to mail it until around 25 October. If you are in a real hurry, you might could get it through interlibrary Loan before that date. Here is the cite: "Dialect at Work: Eudora Welty's Artistic Purposes," Mississippi Folklore Register 16.2 (1982), 33-40. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 13:39:02 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine --PART.BOUNDARY.0.14262.emout10.mail.aol.com.876073133 Content-ID: <0_14262_876073133[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emout10.mail.aol.com.3855> Content-type: text/plain Thanks, Mr. Popik, for all the gay citations. Attached is my article (DOS) on the evolution of GAY for anybody who wants to download it. --PART.BOUNDARY.0.14262.emout10.mail.aol.com.876073133 Content-ID: <0_14262_876073133[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emout10.mail.aol.com.3856> Content-type: text/plain; name="GAYpaper(DOS)" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "What Did Cary Grant Know About 'Going GAY' and When Did He Know it?: On = the Sociolinguistic Development of the Popular Term GAY 'homosexual' " =0D American University, Washington, DC, Lavender Languages Conference 17 September 1995 =0D Ronald R. Butters Duke University =0D This paper is about the evolving colloquial meaning of the term GAY in se= veral twentieth-century senses. I will be focussing on the current domina= nt sense 'homosexual', the etymology of which is fairly well established,= I believe, though not necessarily unambiguous nor following from a singl= e, solitary source. The sociolinguistic emergence of the sense in the Uni= ted States in the 1930s and 1940s and 1950s, and its relationship to othe= r slang senses of the term, appear to me to be rather complex, particular= ly when viewed from a late-twentieth-century perspective in which our sen= sibilities have been profoundly affected by the gay/lesbian/bisexual/tran= ssexual rights movements of the 1970s and beyond. For these reasons I sho= uld perhaps have better entitled my talk, "What Did Cary Grant Know About= 'Going Gay' and When Did He Know it?: On the Sociolinguistic Development= of the Popular Term GAY 'homosexual'." Let me begin by summarizing the major etymological strands that gave us G= AY 'homosexual'. (1). It is well documented that GAY was an adjective use= d in England in the earlier twentieth century to describe prostitutes, an= d the meaning of the term appears to have been extended sometimes to male= homosexual prostitutes and male homosexuals (see Jonathan Lighter, in th= e 1994 first volume of the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN= SLANG, s.v. GAY adj. 1a). (2). It is well documented that the term GAYCA= T was applied in earlier-twentieth-century America to juvenile male hobos= , many of whom putatively became the passive sexual partners of older mal= e hobos (see, e.g., THE OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY, s.v. GAY CAT ;. RANDOM= HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, s.v. GAY adj. 1b). (3). T= he primary meaning of GAY was 'happy', with important semantic extensions= of meaning as 'carefree, colorful, energetically frivolous, hedonistic'.= Thus a GAY party in this extended sense (3) was a party that was happy, = colorful, energetically frivolous, and/or hedonistic--just the sort of pa= rty at which stereotypical male homosexuals might be found, since queers = were/are stereotypically, among other things, party animals who were/are = carefree, colorful, energetically frivolous, and hedonistic. The extensio= n of GAY to mean 'male homosexual' may well have thus been largely little= more than a kind of metonymy based on stereotypes: homosexuals are GAY; = therefore, GAY means 'homosexual'. An example of this third sense is foun= d in the American movie THE GREAT LIE (1941). Mary Astor, playing a "bad"= girl (in a role for which she won an academy award), describes George Br= ent (her lover) as "very gay." Brent ends up marrying Bette Davis, the "g= ood" girl, instead of Astor, for whom the attraction was basically their = mutual, decadent, alcoholic, carnal lust. GAY here clearly means 'happy, = colorful, energetically frivolous, hedonistic, decadent'. Had the movie b= een made forty years later, Mary Astor might well have said "very fun" or= "very wild" rather than "very gay." If the authors of the script and the= actress who spoke the line had had any fear of connoting 'homosexual' fo= r this usage of GAY in THE GREAT LIe, the word would not have been used b= ecause the meaning would have been throughly inappropriate to describe th= e sensual heterosexual character portrayed by George Brent. Obviously, ev= en for the decadents of Hollywood, GAY didn't much mean 'homosexual' in 1= 940 when the film was made. Whether or not GAY 'homosexual' came from one, two, or three of these sen= ses is not certain. My own best guess is that etymology (3) is sociolingu= istically the most plausible, but the others were lurking in the backgrou= nd and may have been contributing factors. In any case, the fact is that = GAY began to be used perhaps as early as the 1920s with the meaning '(mal= e) homosexual' as a somewhat clandestine term of self-reference among GAY= men and lesbians. Jonathan Lighter, in the 1994 first volume of the RAND= OM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, cites two highly ambigu= ous references, the earliest use in the current lexicographical record of= GAY in what might possibly be the modern sense of 'homosexual'. The firs= t dates from 1922 and was penned by Gertrude Stein in a story called "Mis= s Furr & Miss Skeene": "They were _ GAY, they learned little things in be= ing GAY, _ they were quite regularly GAY" [***Footnote 1: Lighter gives a= s his source "Vanity Fair "; Judy Grahn (see note 2 below) cites Gertrude= Stein, Geography and Plays (1922; rpt. New York: Something Else Press) 1= 968, 17]; the second from Charles Henri Ford and Parker Tyler's homosexua= l coterie novel, THE YOUNG AND EVIL (Paris, Obelisk, 1933, 163; repr. 197= 5, New York: Arno): . . . compliments flew down on special wheels couldn't say no to the sensations he gives me GAYest thing on two feet harlot making theatrical costumes like one demented and renting the bed them to come down here and fight like men startling =2E . . = In neither citation--both of which suggest expatriate usage of GAY --is i= t really clear that GAY necessarily means anything but 'carefree, colorfu= l, energetically frivolous, hedonistic'. [***Footnote 2: For an opposing = view that assumes that Stein was using the word in 1922 in the same sense= that it is used today, see Judy Grahn, Another Mother Tongue: Gay Words,= Gay Worlds (Boston: Beacon, 198?, 24-25): "I first heard the word GAY us= ed with reference to homosexual love in a high school literature class, a= lthough I didn't know that members of the homosexual underground culture = called themselves GAY, and neither did my teacher. _ It is my favorite co= ming-out story. And Stein slid it perfectly through the censorship of the= era, so that everyone could read it, but some could decode it and learn = more about themselves than others could." Grahn thus adopts essentially t= he same arguments with respect to the meaning of GAY in "Miss Furr and Mi= ss Skeene" that Russo does with respect to the GAY reference in BRINGING = UP BABY. One is tempted to question the validity of Grahn's judgment of t= he linguistic naivete of the high school English teacher who on the one h= and was innovative enough to assign Gertrude Stein to her class but who w= as so backwards as not to know the 'homosexual' meaning of the word GAY)]= =2E = Anecdotal evidence from gay persons who actually lived as adults in = the 1920s so far yields only a little additional evidence to indicate tha= t GAY 'homosexual' originated then, perhaps in Europe. For example, in a = 1975 interview, Edouard Roditi, an American citizen who was born in Paris= in 1910, had this to say about the use of GAY (GAY SUNSHINE INTERVIEWS, = ed. Winston Leyland, vol. 2, 1982) [***Footnote 3: My thanks to Joseph Ki= ssane for pointing out this occurrence of gay to me (personal corresponde= nce, 28 February 1990)]: =0D I _ tend to feel uneasy about the word "GAY." For me, perhaps because I a= m so much older, the word has certain implications which are unpleasant. = I remember in the twenties, the word was not applied to homosexuals. One = referred to "GAY girls" meaning prostitutes. And then non-homosexuals beg= an to refer to certain types of homosexuals as being GAY, implying that t= hey were male prostitutes. They had round heels and were pushovers and co= uld be laid by anyone who wanted. And then this term which was a bit offe= nsive in those days is now generally accepted, more than accepted. It's b= ecome a kind of banner, an honor. In the back of my mind is the feeling t= hat the word "GAY" is just about as unpleasant as the word : "fruit." =0D 17 September 1995 American University, Washington, DC, Lavender Languages Conference, page = =0D Since Roditi did not visit the United States until 1929--indeed, he lived= in the United States only from 1937 to 1946--his recollections are more = European/expatriate than ordinary American--and moreover, his earlier (pr= e World War II) recollections seem to have been of the older sense of 'pr= ostitute' rather than 'homosexual'. Another American recalls having heard= the term used in Europe; Samuel M. Steward writes (in 1981) about a 1937= visit to Gertrude Stein and Alice B. Toklas in France: =0D Suddenly, while driving, she [Gertrude Stein] grabbed my kneecap and sque= ezed it hard. "Sammy," she said, "do you think Alice and I are lesbians?"= I was startled. A curl of flame ran up my spine. "It's no one's business = one way or another," I said. "Do you care whether we are," she asked. "Not in the least," I said, suddenly dripping wet. "Are you queer or GAY or different or 'of it' as the French say or whatev= er they are calling it nowadays," she said, still driving as fast as alwa= ys. She had let go my knee. I waggled my hand. "I'm currently both," I said. "I think," I added, "I d= on't see why I should go limping on one leg through life just to satisfy = a so-called norm." There was not very much more to the conversation. _ [Chapters from an Aut= obiography (San Francisco: Grey Fox Press), 63] =0D Though one may have one's doubts about the reliability of the diction of = dialogue which Steward recalled 44 years after the fact, one can scarcely= doubt the reliability of Anthony Boucher's 1941 American detective novel= , THE CASE OF THE SOLID KEY, in which Hilary Vane, a character who decide= s to disguise himself as a homosexual to track down the cause of his moth= er's death, has this to say (in revealing that he isn't really homosexual= ): =0D He didn't know me, I'm sure. I had--I did not have the same freshness of= youth that I had possessed before. I was not the same person. And I had = deliberately changed my manners, my mannerisms. I had 'gone GAY,' as we s= ay in Hollywood. It is not an ineffective disguise. =0D [***Footnote 4: My thanks to Stanton J. Price for pointing out this occur= rence of gay to me (personal correspondence, 22 March 1989). Price notes = further that Boucher's interest in homosocial/homoerotic aspects of life = in the 1940s is not limited to Vane's subterfuge; at an earlier point in = the book two other important characters, the Watson-and-Holmes pair Harke= r and O'Breen, go to the YMCA where, as Boucher puts it, "there are no re= gulations as to clothing and you can enjoy the sun incomplete and blissfu= l nakedness, acquiring a tan without an absurd facsimile of white trunks = about your middle." Price says, "it is made clear that Vane and O'Breen a= re frequent visitors to the solarium. Although O'Breen has his towel over= his face--he doesn't want Vane to know he's there--Vane recognizes him a= nyway because of a scar on his stomach."] =0D Even so, Boucher obviously felt a need to explain the term to his readers= , thus indicating its recondite nature. And even as late as 1945, GAY was= not known to the public at large. In a book published in 1951, Donald We= bster Cory asserts that gay was at that time part of the secret language = by which homosexuals made contact with each other: "The word serves as a = signal, a sign of recognition. In conversation there is an exploration, a= search to know if the other is likewise hiding behind a mask. And then o= ne person uses the word and awaits a response. The use cannot be misunder= stood" (The Homosexual in America [New York: Greenberg], 108-9; cited in = Greg Jacobs, "Lesbian and Gay Male Language Use: A Critical View of the L= iterature," ms., 1995, 22). Writing in 1955, the Englishman Peter Wildeblood tells something of = himself before the famous Montagu case which resulted in his conviction f= or homosexual offenses. He was returned to Oxford after the war, resuming= his studies in November of 1945. In this paragraph he tells about the fi= rst time he heard the word GAY used to mean 'homosexual': =0D I meet a man with whom I had been at school. He had been a naval officer,= with some staff appointment in Ceylon. He said that most of the officers= at the station had been 'GAY', and looked at me as though this was some = password to which he expected me to reply. I had not heard the expression= before, but apparently it was an American euphemism for homosexual. He w= as, of course, GAY himself, and took it for granted that I was, too. I wa= s surprised and rather impressed. He did not look in the least like the p= opular idea of homosexual, being well-built, masculine and neatly dressed= =2E This was something new to me. [Against the Law (London: Weidenfeld an= d Nicolson, 1955, 23)] =0D [***Footnote 5: My thanks to Joseph Kissane for pointing out this occurre= nce of gay to me (personal correspondence, 7 June 1989). The passage is a= lso cited in the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY.] And, finally, there is G. Legman's 1941 lexicon, "The Language of Ho= mosexuality: An American Glossary" (appendix to SEX VARIANTS: A STUDY OF = HOMOSEXUAL PATTERNS, by George William Henry [New York & London: Hoeber],= 1149-79), which lists: =0D *GAY An adjective used almost exclusively by homosexuals to denote homose= xuality, sexual attractiveness, promiscuity _ or lack of restraint, in a = person, place, or party. Often given the French spelling gai or gaie by (= or in burlesque of) cultured homosexuals of both sexes. =0D Legman says (1154) that the terms in his glossary are "current since the = first World War, and particularly during the period between 1930 and 1940= =2E" The asterisk that he placed before the entry indicates a term "used = exclusively by homosexuals" (1155). In short, the preponderance of the evidence to date indicates that we can= say with any certainty that not until the late 1930s or early 1940s did = GAY 'homosexual' become an established term, and even then it was highly = recondite, used pretty much exclusively in artistic, privileged, cosmopol= itan, bohemian, homosexual subcultural circles--in London, New York, and = other centers of sophistication among coteries of English-speaking sophis= ticates (including the American expatriate communities in France and Engl= and, if the Gertrude Stein/Edouard Roditi evidence seems convincing enoug= h). This usage then spread "from the top down" in sophisticated and (espe= cially) homosexual subcultural circles throughout the 1940s, becoming inc= reasingly firmly established and well known in the 1950s. During the 1950= s, the term further emerged from pure subcultural usage to more general s= lang, eventually forcing the other meanings of the term into virtual obso= lescence. = This yielding of the term to the 'homosexual' meaning was not without str= uggle, however. As late as 1968, John Updike had no problem writing, "_ a= GAY small lamp whose shade was orange" (COUPLES)--meaning, I guess, 'a c= heerful small lamp'. As late as 1970, an official tourist guide for the c= ity of Atlanta was called GAY ATLANTA. In 1980, a vacation hotel in Virgi= nia Beach, VA, persisted in calling itself, as it had for years, "The Gay= Traveller" (I can tell you from first-hand experience that the hotel was= anything but gay in any known sense of the term when I stayed there in 1= 979 or 1980--"The Weary traveller" or "The Dreary Traveller" would have b= een more apt). And in 1989 Peter S. Prescott, in his NEWSWEEK review of t= he then-newly published unified OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY, had this to sa= y: =0D Invaluable as its citations are, problems can arise. A series of quotatio= ns can't show the damage that a current usage can do: how GAY--a delightf= ul and necessary word--is now virtually lost to use except in its homosex= ual association. [27 March, 69] =0D (Prescott does not indicate why he believes that it should be more "neces= sary" that GAY be a minor synonym for 'merry', 'bright', and 'lively' tha= n that homosexuals might have a nonpejorative, nonclinical term for self-= reference, nor does he indicate that he may owe his criticism and his dic= tion to drama critic and linguistic curmudgeon John Simon, who devoted pa= rt of one of his 1978 amateur lexicographical columns in ESQUIRE to "the = wanton and shocking destruction of the good and necessary English word GA= Y.") What interests me especially in all this from a sociolinguistic point of = view is the earliest spreading of the use of GAY 'homosexual' in the 1930= s and early 1940s. Viewed from the late twentieth-century, this emergence= -stage is highly susceptible to misunderstanding and scholarly confusion.= Legman, Boucher, and Wildeblood indicate that the coteries using GAY 'ho= mosexual' were highly restricted to homosexuals and their straight acquai= ntances. Mary Astor's use of GAY in THE GREAT LIE (1941), which I mention= ed earlier, in the then-popular slang sense 'carefree, colorful, energeti= cally frivolous, hedonistic', offers additional negative evidence that th= e 'homosexual' sense of GAY was not well known in the early 1940s. Indeed, the word GAY recurs frequently with exactly this meaning in numer= ous movies of the 1930s. Moreover, as late as the 1950s, sophisticated ga= y men appear to have been ignorant of the term. James Barr's novel QUATRE= FOIL was published in 1950, set in Seattle and Oklahoma in 1946, and adve= rtised in its 1982 publication as a "milestone in gay fiction." Interesti= ngly, the term GAY itself seems not to be in the author's vocabulary in t= he sense of 'homosexual', for he uses the term several times in the novel= , seemingly unconscious of any possible 'homosexual' connotations; the o= nly term used in the book for what we now call GAY is FAIRY, though Barr = also uses such terms as DEGENERACY, DISEASE, VICE, and CORRUPTION. Some q= uotes: "They dined at a private club in which Francis had a serviceman's = membership, and they were very gay and companionable" (88); "He turned to= Philip, who still held the cup. The gaily colored pajamas broke the stra= ight clear line of him" (198); "Sybel Jo came to hang on his arm as he sh= ook hands all around. He was gay as he accepted the jarringly uncouth jok= es about planned parenthood" (211); " 'The secret of his dignity is his u= niform,' Philip laughed. [=14] 'And yours, too, young man, so don't be ga= y about it,' said his mother" (287). In context, it seems impossible that= Barr is being self-consciously ironic, using a code word for the titilla= tion of his "fairy" audience; Barr is too straightforward otherwise in th= is novel. I think that he simply doesn't know that GAY has homosexual con= notations, though one might also hypothesize that he refrained from using= GAY to mean 'homosexual' for reasons of linguistic purity, a la Peter Pr= escott and John Simon. And here is where Cary Grant comes into the picture. =0D In his groundbreaking book on homosexuality in American cinema, Vito Russ= o makes the following statement (THE CELLULOID CLOSET, rev. ed. [New York= : Harper and Row, 1987, 47; first ed. 1981): =0D Only once during the reign of the [censorship] Code [for American films],= it seems, in Howard Hawks' Bringing Up Baby (1938), did an unscripted us= e of the word GAY appear to refer to homosexuality. When Katherine Hepbur= n's Aunt Elizabeth (Mary Robson) discovers Cary Grant in a lace nightgown= , she ask him if he dresses like that all the time. Grant leaps into the = air and shouts hysterically, "No! I've just gone gay _ all of a sudden!" = This exchange appears in no version of the published script. The official= first and second drafts of the sequence are the same: Aunt Elizabeth: Well, young man _ I uh, hope ? Dexter: I _ I suppose you think it's odd, my wearing this. I realize it l= ooks odd _ I don't usually _ I mean, I don't own one of these. Thus what was probably an ad-lib on the day of shooting provides a rare t= extual reference to the word GAY and to the concrete possibility of homos= exuality in Hawks' work, which is fairly brimming over with what people u= sed to call repressed sexual tension between men. =0D This highly speculative (and somewhat misleadingly reported, as we shall = see presently) interpretation has been repeated in various places (see, e= =2Eg., Hugh Rawson, A DICTIONARY OF EUPHEMISM AND OTHER DOUBLETALK, 1981,= s.v. GAY ; John Boswell, CHRISTIANITY, SOCIAL TOLERANCE, AND HOMOSEXUALI= TY, 1980, 43;cf. also Martin Duberman, Cures, 1991, 22n), and it has even= been given the scholarly lexicographical imprimatur of Jonathan E. Light= er's RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, 1994, s.v. GAY= ). But the actual text of the BRINGING UP BABY crucial scene (as I trans= cribed it from repeated replayings of the film on video): =0D [Aunt Elizabeth has come to the door and rather belligerently inquired as= to who Cary Grant is and why he is there in Katherine Hepburn's residenc= e; Grant has answered her equally belligerently--he is quite angry becaus= e Hepburn has taken his clothes while he is in the shower and sent them o= ut to be cleaned. So, he has no clothes and is forced to dress in her nig= htgown. He has already suggested that "running around in rural Connecticu= t naked": is going to make him "crazy"--which is especially important, gi= ven that the issue of his mental health is one of the points on which the= plot turns] =0D Aunt Elizabeth: Well, who are you? David: I don't know, I'm not quite myself today. Aunt Elizabeth: Well, you look perfectly idiotic in those clothes! David: I've lost my clothes! Aunt Elizabeth: Well, why are you wearing these clothes? David: Because I just went ga-a-ay, all of a sudden! [he leaps into the a= ir like a monkey, both arms raised even with his chest like a Russian fol= k-dancer, a devilish mad grimace on his face; his pronunciation of GAY is= very tense and elongated, but not effeminate] Oh, excuse me, I'm sorry [= he lowers his voice abnormally and apologizes for his outburst] Aunt Elizabeth: Now see here, young man, stop this nonsense. [he backs up= and sits down on the staircase behind him] David: I'm sitting in ;the middle of 42nd Street waiting for a bus. =0D Russo's unfortunate choice of the adverb "hysterically" to describe Grant= 's leap suggests an effeminacy about his action which is simply not prese= nt in the event which the viewer actually sees on the screen. The leap is= virile--the action of an angry, frustrated, humiliated, butch man who ha= s been robbed of his clothing by a woman he hardly know--not at all sugge= stive of the stereotypical mannerisms of a drag queen. The idea of madnes= s permeates the scene. Despite what one might think from a quick glance at Russo's interpretatio= n, BRINGING UP BABY (and, for that matter, "Miss Furr & Miss Skeene" by G= ertrude Stein) presents the lexicographer with a difficult dilemma. To ig= nore such a citation could well be viewed as an act of lexicographical ir= responsibility (and perhaps even sociopolitical insensitivity), given the= possibility that Cary Grant (or whoever was responsible for this deviati= on from the original text) might have made an ad lib having such a meanin= g in mind (or at least might have been interpreted by a few members of hi= s audience as having had that meaning in mind). However, to treat the aut= hority of the citation as a matter of solid lexicographical certainty giv= es the strong (if not necessarily intended) implication that GAY was bein= g used to mean 'homosexual' in a relatively clear and unambiguous way in = American mass media in 1938--when clearly it was not. There is no real ev= idence that GAY in this citation meant 'homosexual' to anyone involved in= the making of the film: the "evidence" is purely circumstantial--Grant u= tters the word in ironic self-reference while wearing Katherine Hepburn's= fluffy-cuffed peignoir. Moreover, even if GAY did mean 'homosexual' to C= ary Grant or to anyone else involved in the making of the film, that mean= ing clearly was rendered as the obscure half of a double entendre intende= d only for a coterie in-crowd of Hollywood sophisticates who had strong t= ies to the repressed homosexual underworld. At worst, even if the film ma= kers had no such double meaning in mind, some homosexual viewers and thei= r supersophisticated straight friends might possibly have mistakenly inte= rpreted--or deliberately misinterpreted--Grant's line as a double entendr= e (in rather the same way that FLOWER DRUM SONG's line, "I enjoy being a = girl," was interpreted in the 1950s). A lexicographer such as Lighter may= well be following sound lexicographical principles in including Bringing= Up Baby as a possible early instance of GAY 'homosexual' in a dictionary= , but it is nonetheless necessary for an understanding of the import and = significance of Grant's line emergence to provide somewhere the full comp= lexity of the sociolinguistic emergence of the term. And to do so becomes= crucial in studying American cinema and social history. Certainly, the movie's general audience (not to mention Aunt Elizabeth) w= ould have been totally oblivious to such a reading of Cary Grant's line. = But if GAY did not mean 'homosexual' to the general audience, what could = it have meant to them? The primary meanings--'happy, merry; carefree, col= orful, energetically frivolous, hedonistic'--are not quite right for expl= aining to a straight-laced, late-middle-aged female stranger why an overw= rought young man might be wearing women's night clothes. In all of the pr= ofessional speculation about the meaning of Grant's lines, one reading ha= s been overlooked: there was also a popular slang meaning of GAY which is= amply documented in America in the earlier twentieth century but which s= eems to have almost entirely disappeared today. It is in this sense that = Sherwood Anderson uses the term a number of times in his short story, "I'= m a Fool" (1922), which has a first-person narrator who speaks in working= -class Ohio English of the period. The character says things like, "And t= hen he looked at me, as though he thought maybe he'd get GAY, but he chan= ged his mind and didn't say anything"; and "You know how women can do. Th= ey get close, but not getting GAY, either. You know what they do. Gee whi= zz." The meaning which Anderson is using here is recorded in the OXFORD E= NGLISH DICTIONARY and the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH, and Li= ghter summarizes it (s.v. GAY adj. 3) as meaning 'unruly, impertinent, fo= rward, reckless'. It is in this now-obsolete slang sense, I believe, that= BRINGING UP BABY's general audience (and Aunt Elizabeth) would have been= expected to construe Grant's "No! I've just gone GAY _ all of a sudden!"= : 'I've just gone unruly all of a sudden!', i.e.,'I've just gone crazy al= l of a sudden!' is what the audience would have taken the phrase to mean = in 1938, and what would have been an intelligible reading for a stuffy, m= iddle-aged, well-to-do woman in 1938. Moreover, given the general aura of= insanity in the movie and especially in the immediate scene, a reading o= f GAY as 'wacky' or 'crazy' seems just right for Grant's outburst. If we assume that the primary meaning of GAY in the Grant ad lib (if it w= as that) is 'unruly; crazy' and not 'homosexual' we are left with the pos= sibility that at best the ad lib was a highly obscure double entendre, us= ed perhaps in part as a way of flouting the censorship Code in force in A= merican cinema before 1961. This, really, is Russo's basic point, and it = is worth asking ourselves if Grant could have made such a double entendre= =2E Certainly, Grant was old enough to know the 'unruly; crazy' meaning and y= oung enough to have come across the 'homosexual' meaning. [compare Grant'= s age with Sherwood Anderson.] And he was working in an industry in which= there was a great deal of sophisticated sexual experimentation--in which= there would be easier demi-monde access than in most ways of life in Ame= rica in 1938. (Recall here once again Anthony Boucher's 1941 American det= ective novel, THE CASE OF THE SOLID KEY, in which a character speaks of p= retending to be homosexual by saying, "I had 'gone GAY,' as we say in Hol= lywood"; this is conceivably a reference to BRINGING UP BABY). Indeed, th= ere was gossip about Grant's own sexual "confusion," much of which center= ed on his having lived with Randolph Scott in conditions of considerable = intimacy (and there was even more gossip about Scott's sexual proclivitie= s). And, while we know today that transvestitism and homosexuality are no= t necessarily connected, and while Grant's humorous appearance in drag is= part of a long tradition of amusing cross-dressing in the theatre and fi= lm, the association of homosexuality and drag performances was clear--if = not unambiguous--in the 1930s and beyond. To all this I need to add one highly suggestive popular-culture evidence = which has not yet been published in the scholarly literature. In a 1941 s= tage musical called LET'S FACE IT, Cole Porter wrote a song called "Farmi= ng," which contains the following lyrics [My thanks to Joseph Kissane for= pointing out this occurrence of gay to me (personal correspondence, 4 Ap= ril 1989)]: =0D Farming, that's the fashion, Farming, that's the passion Of our great celebrities of today. Kit Cornell is shellin' peas, Lady Mendl's climbin' trees, = Dear Mae West is at her best in the hay. Stomping through the thickets, Coming with the crickets, Makes 'em feel more glamorous and more GAY. They tell me cows who are feeling milky All give cream when they're milked by Willkie, Farming is so charming they all say. =0D Farming, that's the fashion, Farming, that's the passion Of our great celebrities of today. Monty Woolley, so I heard, Has boll weevils in his beard, Michael Strange has got the mange, will it stay? Mussing up the clover, Cussing when its over, Makes 'em feel more glamorous and more GAY. The natives think its utterly utter When Margie Hart starts churning her butter, Farming is so charming, they all say. =0D Farming, that's the fashion, Farming, that's the passion Of our great celebrities of today. = Fannie Hurst is haulin' logs, = Fanny Brice is feedin' hogs, = Garbo-Peep has led her sheep all astray. = Singing while they're rakin', = Bringing home the bacon, = Makes 'em feel more glamorous and more GAY. = Miss Elsa Maxwell, so the folks tattle, = Got well-goosed while dehorning her cattle, Farming is so charming, they all say. =0D Farming, that's the fashion, Farming, that's the passion Of our great celebrities of today. Don't inquire of Georgie Raft Why his cow has never calfed, = Georgie's bull is beautiful, but he's GAY! Seeing spring a-coming, = Being minus plumbing, = Makes 'em feel informal and d=82gag=82. When Cliff Odets found a new tomater He plowed under the Group Theaytre, Farming is so charming, they all say. =0D The song goes on in the printed version for five more stanzas, four of wh= ich were never used in the original stage production (one of which contai= ns the lines, "Just to keep her roosters keen, / Dietrich, that great mov= ie queen, lifts her leg and lays an egg, what a lay"). All of the other s= tanzas contain the line "Makes 'em feel more glamorous and more GAY." It = is difficult to believe that the author of the line "Georgie's bull is be= autiful, but he's GAY!" did not intend that a significant portion of his = audience would understand GAY in this context to mean 'homosexual', yet e= ven here a pun is possible (and, I believe, likely) on the older slang se= nse 'unruly; crazy', if not the sense 'happy, colorful, energetically fri= volous, hedonistic'. Even so, the simple assumption of Russo, Dawson, and even Lighter that GA= Y simply meant 'homosexual' in Cary Grant's lines in BRINGING UP BABY is = clearly an anachronism, a projection back from a 1980s sensibility onto a= late 1930s sociolinguistic context. Whatever Cary Grant meant--and whate= ver various segments of his audience might have thought he meant--we must= weigh it against the full sociosemantic range of GAY in 1938, much of wh= ich Russo (and apparently Dawson) was unaware of. One cannot deny the pos= sibility that Grant's putative ad lib was the first mainstream popular-cu= lture use of the term GAY which had strong 'homosexual' overtones. Perhap= s it was, as Russo argues, an obscure rebellion against the infamous Code= of Decency. Even so, the interpretation as 'homosexual' is by no means c= lear and unambiguous. Moreover, even if a double entendre it would have b= een completely lost upon almost every member of its audience and most cer= tainly the character to whom the ad lib was directed. = In short, if BRINGING UP BABY is evidence of the emergence of GAY 'homose= xual', it definitely must not be interpreted as evidence that GAY meant '= homosexual' for anyone but a handful of Americans in 1938. =0D *****The End***** =0D =0D More Data that should be encorporated: =0D (1). "THE MARQUISE [a play by Noel Coward] is GAY, brilliant, witty, char= ming and altogether delightful." ["Preface," THE MARQUISE, w. 1926, first= performed 1927, quoted in Raymond Mander and Joe Mitchenson, COWARD PLAY= S: TWO, London: Methuen, 1979, viii]. This song appears in the play: =0D "WE ALL WORE A GREEN CARNATION" =0D Blas=82 boys are we, Exquisitely free =46rom the dreary and quite absurd Moral views of the common herd. We like porphyry bowls, Chandeliers and stoles, We're most spirited, Carefully filleted "souls." =0D Refrain =0D Pretty boys, witty boys, too, too, too Lazy to fight stagnation, Haughty boys, naughty boys, all we do Is to pursue sensation. The portals of society Are always opened wide, The world our eccentricity condones, = A note of quaint variety We're certain to provide. We dress in very decorative tones. Faded boys, jaded boys, womankind's Gift to a bulldog nation, In order to distinguish us from less enlightened minds, We all wear a green carnation. =0D =2E . . . . . . . . . . . = =0D Faded boys, jaded boys, come what may, Art is our inspiration, And as we [are] the reason for the 'Nineties' being GAY, We all wear a green carnation. =0D (2). James Courage, A Way of Love. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1959. Lo= ndon: J. Cape, 1959. =0D This book uses QUEER as the generic term of self-reference, e.g., p. 112:= "_ What about you, Bruce? Could you lead Jimmy's sort of life?" [=14] "N= o," I admitted, "or at least not when it's turned into a programme. And q= ueer people are lonely enough most of the time, anyway, without deliberat= ely seeking periods of abstinence or making access to love difficult for = themselves." It uses GAY several times, often in a sense clearly other th= an 'homosexual', a few times arguably as a double entendre, e.g., p. 51: = [=14] "Oh, quite . . . But to get back to Verdi--you know the Wells is do= ing TRAVIATA with rubber scenery, all because that designer-boy has a thi= ng about sailors' gum-boots?" [=14] "I didn't. It sounds just too gorgeou= sly gay for words, except that the whole thing'll catch fire." =0D A first-person narrative. Era: c. 1950. A 49-year-old London architect me= ets a 24-year-old man (former RAF pilot) at a concert that the younger ma= n is attending with his girlfriend, Bronwen. The two men eventually fall = in love, and the younger man moves in with the older one. The younger man= is new to "queer" life; Bruce Quantock is his first lover. The older man= supports the younger one while the younger one goes to school to learn t= o be a landscape architect. The younger man, Philip Dill, disassociates h= imself in his own mind from "queers" and refuses at first to see any of "= Bruce's kind." They live a life of virtual isolation--"on an island" is t= he metaphor that the lovers use. =0D Gradually, Philip permits a few social encounters with Bruce's "queer" fr= iends and acquaintances, of whom there are considerable, Bruce having liv= ed a very active (if professionally discrete) queer life for the previous= 30-odd years. But then Philip begins to withdraw from Bruce. Eventually,= Philip announces that he is going to try to find a woman and marry. He c= onfesses to having had a brief and unsatisfying fling with another younge= r man whom he met at one of the queer parties that Bruce and Philip atten= ded together--ostensibly as a way of assimilating himself better to queer= life. =0D The lovers break up. After a month or two, Philip suggests a reconciliati= on, but Bruce will have none of it. He sees the situation as hopeless--an= d besides, he says, he is over Philip: =0D I must shirk nothing here. If I turned him down, as I did, if I refused h= im as gently as I could, I acted out of no smug sense of revenge, still l= ess with a feeling of self-sacrifice. Simply I thought it better that, ha= ving won a difficult independence for himself, he should continue to orde= r his own life, weaned from mine. Whatever his future, whether he married= or not, he must stand by himself. If he were to return to me, a second p= arting between us might well be more painful and less auspicious than the= first. (There was another consideration also, a complex matter I did not= attempt to explain and one which I had not foreseen: namely that in writ= ing this history of our affair, his and mine, I had already to some exten= t worked him out of my system. A Philip revived would not be the same per= son.) [ p. 252] =0D Seeing himself as now too old to find another companion (and seemingly ex= pecting to remain celibate for the rest of his life?), Bruce sets as his = goal to find emotional satisfaction by mentoring his adolescent nephew--w= ho may himself be queer, the story sort of hints. =0D LOC lists James Courage as born in 1905. Another service (RLIN/Eureka) li= sts James Courage as born 1903, died 1963, author of New Zealand stories = published posthumously. If this is the same person, perhaps he was born i= n New Zealand, then migrated to London, perhaps returning to New Zealand = in his last few years? So far, I have not been able to find any biographi= cal record of Courage, though I haven't really begun to look. Possibly so= me sort of Who's Who of British authors from the 1950s would list him. Po= ssibly there is somebody at U of Minnesota who knows about him--his books= seem all to be in that library, but not many places else. Should check P= MLA. =0D (3). Need to encorporate George Chauncey's discussion of GAY in his book,= IN GAY NEW YORK. Chauncey introduces some marvelous data showing that pu= tatively straight police investigtors in the 1930s did not use the term G= AY 'homosexual', but began to do so in the 1940s. Chauncey also argues th= at Grant in BRINGING UP BABY was indeed makng a double entendre in his "j= ust gone gay" ad lib. Chauncy's only real new evidence for this argument = is the fact that Grant goes on to ad lib that he is sitting on 42nd Stree= t,which Chauncey takes as a further veiled reference to homosexuality. = --PART.BOUNDARY.0.14262.emout10.mail.aol.com.876073133-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Oct 1997 18:05:51 -0400 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: dialect in literature Stephen Crane's _Maggie: A Girl of the Streets_ is a short, but important work from the end of the 19th century that you might want to include in your study. Crane uses the Irish street slang of the Bowery during that period. As I understand it, the work was considered groundbreaking in its use of realistic dialect in fiction. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Oct 1997 to 5 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Oct 1997 to 6 Oct 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 396 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. akribits 2. "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees (3) 3. dialect in literature (3) 4. "Hoosier" (2) 5. Etymology of _Hoosier_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 01:23:02 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: akribits So who happened to watch the new sitcom "Veronica's Closet" last week? One of the plot threads involved the PR person inventing a new word because he couldn't come up with a synonym for "increase." He came up with akribits (spelling obviously phonetically made up since they never showed it in writing). After making it up, it was then used in an article in "Time" (I think), and then in the "Wall Street Journal," and then by a TV news anchor. And people ask me all the time how new words get in the dictionary... Rima ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 06:18:30 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees THE BACKBONE OF AMERICA OED's non-anatomical definitions for "backbone" include "the main or important element, mainstay" (earliest citation is 1849) and "strength of character, stability of purpose, resoluteness, sturdiness, firmness" (earliest citation is 1843). OED found English citations, but America may have had "backbone" first. This is from the Charleston Mercury, 20 June 1840, pg. 2, col. 6: _From the New Orleans Picayune._ (Probably only a few days prior to this--ed.) "THE BACKBONE OF AMERICA." VHICH IS CLOSELY CONNECTED VITH THE SUBJECT OF ANATOMY. Ve're trav'lin' o'er our "backbone," George, And I tell you it's a vide bone! But vouldn't it be proper If it vas called our _side_ bone? Our figure's wery much increased Awkvard at wery best, And vhile condensin' in the east, Ve've spread out in the vest! Vell, George, ve should have too much sides For von poor back to bear, But luckily in fattenin' ve Prowided for that 'ere; Ve've got _two_ backbones! vhich prewents All such lopsided bother, And yonder sun's the vhole day long Trav'lin' from von to t'other! Two spines! a wery curious fact In the "order wertebrated;" And then our _ribs_ of States, so vide And vell "articulated!" Our soil so braced with muscle, and Such rivers for our weins; And all our "wiscera" complete Except, perhaps, the brains! (...) --STRAWS. Alleghany Mountains. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- FIRST MONDAY IN OCTOBER (What else could follow "backbone"?) This phrase--from the Constitution--signals the start of the United States Supreme Court's session. I had planned to be there to file a "friend of the court" brief on the Ellis Island case. I queried the American Name Society last year and turned up wonderful stuff. I won't be there! Long sad story, but here goes-- Two months ago, I again told my employers (Mayor Giuliani's office and the Dept. of Finance's Inspector General) how, in 1993, many newspapers had suggested that someone run for the useless, superfluous position of Public Advocate and return the money to the city. I had read that and filed for a Conflicts of Interest Board advisory opinion, and was told months later that I'd be ignored. I then filed a complaint with the Dept. of Investigation--and finally received an "advisory opinion" after the election! This was a violation of the city charter! It wasn't until earlier this year that I learned that the DOI had closed my case without telling me, and had taken no action. I also told my employers (again--Mayor Giuliani's office and Dept. of Finance) that I've had my father die this year, and then my mother die this year, and how all this was about the incredible, five-year humiliation I've suffered for solving "the Big Apple," and doing a single good deed, and how I would appreciate, after all these years, if not justice on the charter violation, then at least the slightest kindness of a reply. My employers never replied. My job, by the way, is to give justice to people with parking tickets. So it's the "First Monday in October," and I'm not there!! Back to etymology. How about those Yankees? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- NEW YORK YANKEES Another Yankee playoff series, another incorrect Yankee history book. This is from THE YANKEES: AN ILLUSTRATED HISTORY (1997) by George Sullivan and John Powers, pg. 11, col. 1: In the spring of 1913, _New York Press_ sports editor Jim Price, tired of trying to cram the word "Highlanders" into his headlines, began using "Yankees" instead. So the team, which figured it might smell sweeter by any other name, adopted it. As I posted here last year: it was April 1904, it was in William Randolph Hearst's New York Evening Journal, the sports pages were edited by Harry Beecher, who was the grandson of preacher Henry Ward Beecher and the grandnephew of author Harriet Beecher Stowe, the team had just returned from playing in the South.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 09:40:55 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: dialect in literature One analysis of Crane's story appears in the Summer 1990 issue of _South Central Review_, a special issue devoted to Linguistics and Literature. _The Text and Beyond: Essays in Literary Linguistics_ (1994, U of AL Press) covers some of the ling/lit territory (though not 19th century American), as does an article I did for the Spring 1994 issue of _The SECOL Review_ ("Language and Literature in Context," pp. 45-61). A helpful e-list might be the LING-LIT group. To subscribe, mail to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YORKU.CA and write the following in the body of your message: SUB LING-LIT Firstname Lastname (where Firstname and Lastname represent your name, of course). Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Sun, 5 Oct 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: > Stephen Crane's _Maggie: A Girl of the Streets_ is a short, but important > work from the end of the 19th century that you might want to include in > your study. Crane uses the Irish street slang of the Bowery during that > period. As I understand it, the work was considered groundbreaking in > its use of realistic dialect in fiction. > > Peggy Smith > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 10:45:44 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: dialect in literature This past summer, I taught a pilot course titled "Dialect Voices in Literature." We covered authors such as Mark Tawin, William Faulkner, James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Zora Neale Hurston, Toni Morrison, and Chinwa Achebe. I got the idea for this from reading a book by Albert French, titled "Billy", three summers ago and being shocked to notice that the "dialect" attributed to White characters should have been associated with Black characters and that what was put in the mouths of Black characters was just fiction. Or at least Black and White characters in this book could have been assigned very similar varieties. In covering the literature this past summer, I was shocked by the extent of stereotyping in the works of especially Twain and Faulkner, and Richard Wright--often exarcerbated by the merciless use of eye dialect for Black characters. I thought Morrison and Hurston are rightfully acclaimed as excellent writers, not only for their outstanding skills as writers and plot-builders, but also for their ability to codeswitch--and they capture variation within the nonstandard dialect very well too. I found Chinwa Achebe very impressive too, but I'll need the assistance of somebody that is fluent in Nigerian Pidgin English (relative to stereotyping--which I could not verify; but then I have this prejudice against too much basilect in the mouth of any pidgin/creole speaker). The purpose of the class was to figure out how knowledge gained from studying AAVE and White nonstandard dialects could be used in literary criticism. (I had training in literary criticism years back in college!) My students and I enjoyed the class. I'd like to teach it again before I write a syllabus or any academic paper on the subject matter. But there is a lot of interesting research out there that graduate students may be encouraged to do, especially if they are going to work in English Departments. I also thought that people specializing in African-American literature should be offered courses on AAVE and White nonstandard dialects (any kind of introductory course)--excuse my patronizing. Some of the students who took the course told me that the experience was like learning to read a book twice, focusing once on the story/plot and then focusing again on language, but the details gained from both readings are mutually enriching. I tried to combine both techniques in my single readings and often focused too much on language, missing some relevant aspects of the story--shame on me. Anyway, I have now forgotten what point I wanted to make--probably just wanted to voice my raw impressions that pertain to the original query on dialect in literature. There is an interesting book that John Rickford brought to my attention, after I had started the class: "Down Home and Uptown: The representation of Black speech in American fiction," by Sylvia Wallace Horton, 1984, Associated University Presses. I have mixed feelings about the parts of it that I read and did not finish reading it. I had a problem with the direction some of her discussions take. Nonetheless, you may find it worth checking. Thanks for your attention. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:00:44 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: "Hoosier" This appeared in LINGUIST List 8-1423. Now, while I know we've discussed this question here fairly recently, I don't remember what was said, or even when (so that I could download the archive for that month). Anyone care to advise or enlighten this individual? (Please reply to them, not to me.) ----------------- Date: Fri, 3 Oct 1997 21:30:04 -0400 (EDT) From: TLTBosse Subject: Hoosier As a native Hoosier, I've often wondered about the true origin of the word. The most realistic, although unverifiable, explanation I've heard is as follows: In the early 19th century, a mill located in Southern Indiana was owned by a man whose last name was, or sounded like "Hoosier". The employees of the mill owner were known as "Hoosier's men", and as they all lived and worked north of the Ohio River, the label "Hoosier" began to be applied to all Americans living in what would eventually become the state of Indiana. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 14:17:51 EDT From: Michael Montgomery Subject: Etymology of _Hoosier_ Mitford Mathews cracked this etymological nut on page 830 of his _Dictionary of Americanisms_, wherein he indicates its most probable source as _hoozer, "very large" in the dialect of Cumberland, northern England. DARE attests the term quite widely and early outside Indiana. Indeed, until the mid-20th century, mountaineers in Tennessee and North Carolina were called _hoosiers_. How the term has come to be associated with Indianans is a more recent but intriguing story. Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 18:44:44 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees At the risk of sounding cold and hardhearted (like Mayor Giuliani), may I ask what Mr. Popik's life story anecdotes have to do with the study of dialects? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 17:51:44 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "Hoosier" Check your DARE Volume II. I remember researching hoosier n & vb , but don't have DARE at home and so can't check myself until tomorrow. Point is, there's an entry for hoosier. beth simon former assistant editor, DARE assistant professor, linguistics and english department of english and linguistics indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 21:04:54 -0400 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees -----Original Message----- From: Beverly Flanigan To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 6:48 PM Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees > At the risk of sounding cold and hardhearted (like Mayor Giuliani), may > I ask what Mr. Popik's life story anecdotes have to do with the study > of dialects? Quite a lot, usually. Please don't discourage him. I always read his posts first. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Oct 1997 19:56:13 -0700 From: Sylvia Swift Subject: Re: dialect in literature a start, in no particular order: The Text & beyond : essays in literary linguistics / edited by Cynthia Goldin Bernstein. Tuscaloosa : University of Alabama Press, c1994. Williamson, Juanita V. (Juanita Virginia) A various language; perspectives on American dialects. Edited by Juanita V. Williamson [and] Virginia M. Burke. New York, Holt, Rinehart and Winston [1971] "Charles Dickens, Linguist" in Quirk, Randolph. The linguist and the English language / [by] Randolph Quirk. London : Arnold, 1974. North, Michael, 1951- The dialect of modernism : race, language, and twentieth-century literature / Michael North. New York : Oxford University Press, 1994. Fishkin, Shelley Fisher. Was Huck Black? : Mark Twain and African-American voices / Shelley Fisher Fishkin. New York : Oxford University Press, 1993. Nettels, Elsa. Language, race, and social class in Howells's America / Elsa Nettels. Lexington, Ky. : University Press of Kentucky, c1988. Sabin, Margery, 1940- The dialect of the tribe : speech and community in modern fiction / Margery Sabin. New York : Oxford University Press, 1987. Sewell, David R., 1954- Mark Twain's languages : discourse, dialogue, and linguistic variety / David R. Sewell. Berkeley : University of California Press, c1987. Shepherd, Valerie. Language variety and the art of the everyday / Valerie Shepherd. London ; New York : Pinter Publishers, 1990. Berkeley Linguistics Society. "The Sociolinguistics of Minority Dialect in Literary Prose" in P of the 7th AM Proceedings of the annual meeting of the Berkeley Linguistics Society. Berkeley, Calif., Berkeley Linguistics Society. Satire or evasion? : Black perspectives on Huckleberry Finn / edited by James S. Leonard, Thomas A. Tenney, and Thadious ... Durham : Duke University Press, 1992. sylvia swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]socrates.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Oct 1997 to 6 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Oct 1997 to 7 Oct 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 583 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Film Noir; Hoosier; O.K. sign; Gay Life (2) 2. ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine 3. RE>Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees 4. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Japo=F1ol?= 5. "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees (2) 6. Japo|ol 7. pop one's fingers (2) 8. An R-full mess 9. dialect in literature (2) 10. womanist ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 02:29:30 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Film Noir; Hoosier; O.K. sign; Gay Life FILM NOIR "Where did the vogue use of this word...have its origin? The earliest use found so far of _film noir_ in the O.E.D. is from a 1958 review in The Spectator about a play that 'tries to be a parody of a _film noir_.' (That can't be the coinage; the Lex Irreg who sends in a previous citation gets a black look in print here.)" --William Safire, "Film Noir Is My Bete Noir," Sunday New York Times Magazine, 5 October 1997. Amazing. I'll take Fred Shapiro's suggestion and be perfectly calm about this. The first place to look, obviously, would be in FILM NOIR: AN ENCYCLOPEDIC REFERENCE TO THE AMERICAN STYLE. The book is edited by Alain Silver and Elizabeth Ward. It was first published in 1979 (18 years ago), the second edition came out in 1980 (17 years ago), and the third edition came out in 1992 (five years ago). Many libraries must have it. There in the introduction, on page one (I'm remaining calm): To begin with, it may seem strange for a group of films indigenously American to be identified by a French term. This is simply because French critics were the first to discern particular aspects in a number of American productions initially released in France after World War II. They also noticed a thematic resemblance between these motion pictures and certain novels published under the generic title of "Serie Noire." "Serie Noire" and its later publishing competitior, "Fleuve Noire" use the French word for "black" to designate a type of detective fiction. As it happens, the majority of the "Serie Noire" titles were translations of American novels and featured the work of such authors as Hammett, Chandler, James M. Cain, and Horace McCoy. The association between such films as _Double Indemnity_, _Murder My Sweet_, or _The Postman Always Rings Twice_ and the "Serie Noire" novels--which was discussed in a typical article in 1946 under the title: "Americans also make 'noir' films"(1)--was all the more apparent because such films were adapted from, and occasionally by, authors who figured prominently in the "Serie Noire" catalogue. (1) Jean Pierre Chartier, _La Revue du Cinema_, V. I, no. 3 (November 1946). The actual invention of the term "film noir" is attributed to cineaste Nino Frank earlier in 1946. How difficult was that?? How long did that take us--half a minute?? Even a computer title search would turn up Borde and Chaumenton's PANORAMA DU FILM NOIR AMERICAIN (1955). I like solving things and I like to take credit for the things I genuinely solve, but beating Safire and the OED by looking at page one of a standard reference???? Huh? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- HOOSIER I did "Hoosier" at the beginning of this year. I discovered a batch of new, 1832 "Hoosier" citations, and stated that I probably would have found more had I had more time in Indiana. Because of the frequent use of the term "Hoosier bait," a "Hoosier" clearly indicates something large, such as a big fish. This came up again several months ago. Maybe we need an ADS-L index? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- O.K. SIGN IN TV In TV DICTIONARY: HANDBOOK FOR SPONSORS (1951), edited by Herbert True and published by Sponsor Publications: Directions to talent--O. K. Sign--Form circle with thumb and forefinger--other fingers extended. There's nothing new about this that I didn't find in a similar, earlier dictionary, but it's significant that, as late as 1951, the sign still needs to be explained in such a dictionary. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- GAY LIFE I'll get to books using this title perhaps a bit later. The NYPL's Lincoln Center Dance Collection had one clipping about a dance with this "Gay Life" title. It's from the Hearst Sunday Magazine (NY American, LA Examiner, and other newspapers), copyright 1911. A November 1911 date is in an article on the other side of the clipping. "Gay Life" is "An erring woman's dance, portraying her career from the dawn of girlish, innocent beauty, through the old, familiar stages to inevitable despair and death. This is the dance by Louis La Gai, which is said to have 'made Paris Good.' (...) It is said that the dance by Louise La Gai (Louis or Louise?--ed.), at the Theatre Marigny, sent gay Parisian audiences away with tears in their eyes, because of the terrible vividness with which it depicted the temptations which may assail any woman, and because it showed that for the woman to yield meant no end but that of a despairing death. The effect was, perhaps, all the keener because the dance was programmed 'The Gay Life.'" For whatever this is worth, it's a "Gay Life" dance and a choreographer named "Gai" in "Gay Paree." Incidentally, OED has "Gay Paree" for 1930. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 07:46:24 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: Film Noir; Hoosier; O.K. sign; Gay Life > How difficult was that?? > How long did that take us--half a minute?? > Even a computer title search would turn up Borde and Chaumenton's > PANORAMA DU FILM NOIR AMERICAIN (1955). > I like solving things and I like to take credit for the things I > genuinely solve, but beating Safire and the OED by looking at page one of a > standard reference???? Well, Barry, although the OED is the product of an immense amount of brilliant research, even they have trouble using sources from the future. What you are doing here is criticizing the OED for not using a book published in 1979 when compiling their entry for _film noir_, appearing in the first volume of the OED Supplement, published in 1972. Perhaps you will say that they should have picked up the information you refer to when they came out with the second edition in 1989, but they explicitly did not seek to antedate entries from the first edition and Supplement in the second edition. And, in any case, nothing that you mention is an antedating of the OED's 1958 citation for _film noir_ in an English-language context! You mention only a 1946 usage of _noir_ and some French-language evidence. You will probably respond to this by finding pre-1958 evidence in an English-language context, but that doesn't alter my point, which is that you are being unfair to both the OED and the RHHDAS with your bashing of them on grounds that are often irrelevant to the purposes and real achievements of those dictionaries. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 08:04:50 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: ONE: In & Out of a homosexual magazine On Sat, 4 Oct 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: > ----"HOMOPHILE"---- > > March 1955, page 8. > No "homphobes" here, but "homophiles" are. The paper "The Homophile in > Society" is reprinted here; it was delivered in its original form to the > International Congress for Sexual Equality at its 1953 session in Amsterdam > by its author, Prof. G. Th. Kempe, PH.D. of Utrecht, Holland. > OED's first "homophile" citation is 1960. See my note, "Earlier Citations for Terms Characterizing Homosexuals," American Speech 63: 283-85 (1988), for a 1945 usage of _homophile_ by Henry Gerber, who probably coined the term. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 09:39:28 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees Barry's posts provide a personal perspective that might otherwise be lacking on this list. So many other lists are so dry, it's a wonder anyone subscribes to them. [I apologize for the alliteration.] Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Beverly Flanigan At the risk of sounding cold and hardhearted (like Mayor Giuliani), may I ask what Mr. Popik's life story anecdotes have to do with the study of dialects? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 10:43:53 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Japo=F1ol?= I ran across an article in El Diario, the New York metropolitan area Spanish language daily, that covers the transfer of Spanish words into Japanese. I thought this might be interesting for those of you looking into Spanglish. The article is below for your edification in Spanish and English. I ran it through optical character recognition and used a computer translator into English, so there will be errors (although I took care with the specific Japoqol words). Between the computer's Spanish to English translation and my own, I think we have the sense of the article, and possibly the facts. Also, be aware that your system or mail reader may not interpret the accents correctly, so you might see little squares or other unlikely characters. "Japoqol": mezcla de japonis y espaqol EFETokio Miles de inmigrantes latinoamericanos residentes en este pams han acuqado el 'japoqol", un hmbrido entre el japonis y espaqol que, sin llegar a la complejidad del "spanglish" en Estados Unidos, suple las necesidades de comunicacisn con un idioma difmcil y arduo como el japonis. Con la bonanza econsmica de los aqos ochenta miles de descendientes de japoneses nacidos en pamses como Perz, Argentina, Bolivia o Paraguay, deshacen los pasos de sus padres y abuelos y regresan al archipiilago para convertirse en "dekasegui", sustantivo que significa "emigrante" y que en 'japoqol" se pluralizs en "dekaseguis" sin que los acadimicos japoneses de la lengua se enteraran. "International Press", un semanario local en espaqol que informa de la actualidad japonesa y del mundo a los "dekaseguis" latinoamericanos, incluye en su pagina de pasatiempos el "dekagrama", un crucigrama cuya solucisn acertada se premia con tarjetas telefsnicas prepagadas, que en Japsn se llaman"kaddo", adaptacisn de la palabra inglesa "card", tarjeta. Los hijos de japoneses que nacen en otro pams,como el presidente peruano Alberto Fujimori, son llamados "ni-sei", segunda generacisn, mientras que su hija, Keiko Soifa, serma "san-sei", tercera generacisn. Los hispanohablantes en Japsn aplican estos numerales como si fueran palabras de nuestro idioma y para catalogar a un descendiente de origen nipsn dudoso, que puede haber recurrido a documentos falsificados o incluso a la cirugma estitica para orientalizar sus facciones, inventaron el despectivo 'falsei". Un popular cantante peruano de ascendencia japonesa, Alberto Shiroma, tituls una de sus canciones "Gambateando", tmpico caso de morfologma hispana aplicada a la palabra "gambaru", (esforzarse, perseverar), uno de los verbos que mas se ve obligado a conjugar todo el que habita en este archipiilago. La inclinacisn de los latinoamericanos a modificar nombres propios y sustantivos con diminutivos encuentra en el japonis un gran au4liaren el sufijo "chan" qze, aqadido al final de cualquier palabra, la enternece y aumenta sus posibilidades en "japoqol". Por obra de este sufijo mas de una "okaa-chan" (madrecita o mamacita) ha dejado de llamar a sus niqos Pablito o Fernandito para decirles "Pablo-chan" o "Femando-chan". El vocabulario de supervivencia del "dekasegui" incluye palabras japonesas como "guemba" (lugar de trabajo), "nihongo" (el idioma japonis), "shachs" (jefe) y "shigoto" (trabajo). La gran dificultad para aprender los ideogramas hace que muchss hispanohablantes rechacen la ardua tarea que supone el aprendizaje del japonis en su forma escrita mientras que el parecido fonitico entre los dos idiomas facilita la rapida memorizacion de ciertas palabras. Azn asm, ningzn diccionario auxiliara al hipanohablante reciin llegado cuando oiga a un compatriota decir a su esposa: "okaachan" pristame una 'kaddo" para llamar a la "guemba" y decirle al "shachs" que hoy no puedo ir al "shigoto", pero que maqana seguro "gambateo ". "Japoqol": Mixture of Japanese and Spanish EFE-Tokyo Thousands of resident Latin American immigrants in this country have coined "japoqol", a hybrid of Japanese and Spanish that, without reaching the complexity of "Spanglish" in United States, supplies the mecessary communication with an arduous and difficult language of Japanese. With the economic prosperity of the Eighties, thousands of Japanese descendants born in countries such as Peru, Argentina, Bolivia or Paraguay, retrace the steps of their parents and grandparents and return to the archipelago to be converted into "dekasegui", basically meaning "migratory" and that in "japoqol" is pluralized as "dekaseguis"without the assistance of Japanese academics. "International Press", a weekly local in Spanish covering Japonese and world news for the "dekaseguis" Latin American, includes in its pastimes page the" dekagrama ", a crucigram whose winners are rewarded with telephone cards, that in Japan are called" kaddo ", adaptation of the English word "card." The Japanese children born in another country, such as Peruvian president Alberto Fujimori, are called " ni-sei ", second generation, while his daughter, Keiko Soifa, would be "san-sei ", third generation. The Spanish-speaking in Japan apply these numerals as if they are Spanish words and to catalogue descendants of doubtful Japanese origin that may have resorted to counterfeit documents or even to the plastic surgery for orientalizar [Orientalizing, I would guess, an interesting coinageGAB] their features, invented the contemptuous 'falsei". A popular Peruvian singer of Japanese ancestry, Alberto Shiroma, titled one of his songs "Gambateando", a typical case of Hispanic morphology applied to the word "gambaru", (to be strengthened, to persevere), a verb that is often conjugated by the ihabitants of this archipelago. The tendency of Latin Americans to modify proper nouns and names with diminutives finds the Japanese suffix "chan" beneficial. Its addition at the end of any word softens it and increases its possibilities in Japoqol. By means of this suffix we get "okaa-chan" (madrecita or mamacita) calling to her children Pablito or Fernandito instead saying "Pablo-chan" or" Fernando-chan". The surviving vocabulary of the "dekasegui" includes Japanese words such as "guemba" (place of work), "nihongo" (the Japanese language), "shachs" (chief) and" shigoto" (work). The great difficulty in learning the ideograms causes that many Spanish-speakers to reject that arduous task of learning Japanese in its written form, while the similar phonetics among the two languages facilitates the rapid memorization of certain words. Even so, no auxiliary dictionary to the recently-arrived Spanish-speakers when hears to a compatriot to say to his wife: "okaachan" give me a "kaddo" to call to the "guemba "and to say to him "shachs" that today I can not go to the "shigoto", but that tomorrow surely "gambateo". ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Oct 1997 00:16:56 +0300 From: Aziz Djuraev Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees A healthy question! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 15:13:47 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: Japo|ol [ I see that the enyes and the accents didn't make it through. I've changed a couple settings on my mail server, so I hope you don't mind if I try it one more time.] I ran across an article in El Diario, the New York metropolitan area Spanish language daily, that covers the transfer of Spanish words into Japanese. I thought this might be interesting for those of you looking into Spanglish. The article is below for your edification in Spanish and English. I ran it through optical character recognition and used a computer translator into English, so there will be errors (although I took care with the specific Japo|ol words). Between the computers Spanish to English translation and my own, I think we have the sense of the article, and possibly the facts. Also, be aware that your system or mail reader may not interpret the accents correctly, so you might see little squares or other unlikely characters. "Japo|ol": mezcla de japones y espa|ol EFETokio Miles de inmigrantes latinoamericanos residentes en este pais han acu|ado el 'japo|ol", un hibrido entre el japones y espa|ol que, sin llegar a la complejidad del "spanglish" en Estados Unidos, suple las necesidades de comunicacion con un idioma dificil y arduo como el japones. Con la bonanza economica de los a|os ochenta miles de descendientes de japoneses nacidos en paises como Peru, Argentina, Bolivia o Paraguay, deshacen los pasos de sus padres y abuelos y regresan al archipielago para convertirse en "dekasegui", sustantivo que significa "emigrante" y que en 'japo|ol" se pluralizo en "dekaseguis" sin que los academicos japoneses de la lengua se enteraran. "International Press", un semanario local en espa|ol que informa de la actualidad japonesa y del mundo a los "dekaseguis" latinoamericanos, incluye en su pagina de pasatiempos el "dekagrama", un crucigrama cuya solucion acertada se premia con tarjetas telefonicas prepagadas, que en Japon se llaman"kaddo", adaptacion de la palabra inglesa "card", tarjeta. Los hijos de japoneses que nacen en otro pais,como el presidente peruano Alberto Fujimori, son llamados "ni-sei", segunda generacion, mientras que su hija, Keiko Soifa, seria "san-sei", tercera generacion. Los hispanohablantes en Japon aplican estos numerales como si fueran palabras de nuestro idioma y para catalogar a un descendiente de origen nipon dudoso, que puede haber recurrido a documentos falsificados o incluso a la cirugia estetica para orientalizar sus facciones, inventaron el despectivo 'falsei". Un popular cantante peruano de ascendencia japonesa, Alberto Shiroma, titulo una de sus canciones "Gambateando", tipico caso de morfologia hispana aplicada a la palabra "gambaru", (esforzarse, perseverar), uno de los verbos que mas se ve obligado a conjugar todo el que habita en este archipielago. La inclinacion de los latinoamericanos a modificar nombres propios y sustantivos con diminutivos encuentra en el japones un gran au4liaren el sufijo "chan que, a|adido al final de cualquier palabra, la enternece y aumenta sus posibilidades en japo|ol. Por obra de este sufijo mas de una "okaa-chan" (madrecita o mamacita) ha dejado de llamar a sus ni|os Pablito o Fernandito para decirles "Pablo-chan" o "Femando-chan". El vocabulario de supervivencia del "dekasegui" incluye palabras japonesas como "guemba" (lugar de trabajo), "nihongo" (el idioma japones), "shacho" (jefe) y "shigoto" (trabajo). La gran dificultad para aprender los ideogramas hace que muchos hispanohablantes rechacen la ardua tarea que supone el aprendizaje del japones en su forma escrita mientras que el parecido fonetico entre los dos idiomas facilita la rapida memorizacion de ciertas palabras. Aun asi, ningun diccionario auxiliara al hipanohablante recien llegado cuando oiga a un compatriota decir a su esposa: "okaachan" prestame una 'kaddo" para llamar a la "guemba" y decirle al "shacho" que hoy no puedo ir al "shigoto", pero que ma|ana seguro "gambateo ". "Japo|ol": Mixture of Japanese and Spanish EFE-Tokyo Thousands of resident Latin American immigrants in this country have coined "japo|ol", a hybrid of Japanese and Spanish that, without reaching the complexity of "Spanglish" in United States, supplies the mecessary communication with an arduous and difficult language of Japanese. With the economic prosperity of the Eighties, thousands of Japanese descendants born in countries such as Peru, Argentina, Bolivia or Paraguay, retrace the steps of their parents and grandparents and return to the archipelago to be converted into "dekasegui", basically meaning "migratory" and that in "japo|ol" is pluralized as "dekaseguis"without the assistance of Japanese academics. "International Press", a weekly local in Spanish covering Japonese and world news for the "dekaseguis" Latin American, includes in its pastimes page the" dekagrama ", a crucigram whose winners are rewarded with telephone cards, that in Japan are called" kaddo ", adaptation of the English word "card." The Japanese children born in another country, such as Peruvian president Alberto Fujimori, are called " ni-sei ", second generation, while his daughter, Keiko Soifa, would be "san-sei ", third generation. The Spanish-speaking in Japan apply these numerals as if they are Spanish words and to catalogue descendants of doubtful Japanese origin that may have resorted to counterfeit documents or even to the plastic surgery for orientalizar [Orientalizing, I would guess, an interesting coinageGAB] their features, invented the contemptuous 'falsei". A popular Peruvian singer of Japanese ancestry, Alberto Shiroma, titled one of his songs "Gambateando", a typical case of Hispanic morphology applied to the word "gambaru", (to be strengthened, to persevere), a verb that is often conjugated by the ihabitants of this archipelago. The tendency of Latin Americans to modify proper nouns and names with diminutives finds the Japanese suffix "chan" beneficial. Its addition at the end of any word softens it and increases its possibilities in Japo|ol. By means of this suffix we get "okaa-chan" (madrecita or mamacita) calling to her children Pablito or Fernandito instead saying "Pablo-chan" or" Fernando-chan". The surviving vocabulary of the "dekasegui" includes Japanese words such as "guemba" (place of work), "nihongo" (the Japanese language), "shacho" (chief) and" shigoto" (work). The great difficulty in learning the ideograms causes that many Spanish-speakers to reject that arduous task of learning Japanese in its written form, while the similar phonetics among the two languages facilitates the rapid memorization of certain words. Even so, no auxiliary dictionary to the recently-arrived Spanish-speakers when hears to a compatriot to say to his wife: "okaachan" give me a "kaddo" to call to the "guemba "and to say to him "shacho" that today I can not go to the "shigoto", but that tomorrow surely "gambateo". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:55:45 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees I don't think that Beverly Flanigan's question was inappropriate or inconsiderate. When a post has very little to do with dialect (or usage), the writer can point out that fact. I don't think we want to discourage Barry Popik; generally I find his posts have interesting points to consider. However, there is a great deal of difference in citations and dates for them (see Fred Shapiro's recent comments) and personal comments about family. I do understand about the need to write through some of the interesting, irritating, discouraging and fascinating aspects of dealing with the deaths and serious illness of close family members. Some of my friends have read a great deal of my views on this subject (as 3 of my/our 4 parents have died in recent years in addition to my brother, my grandmother, and early loved aunt and two uncles). Although I have published only one article on language subjects to date, all of these events have affected my perspectives and my published comments. Let's be fair to both Beverly Flanigan and Barry Popik. Jeutonne Brewer On Mon, 6 Oct 1997, Evan Morris wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > From: Beverly Flanigan > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Date: Monday, October 06, 1997 6:48 PM > Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees > > > > At the risk of sounding cold and hardhearted (like Mayor Giuliani), may > > I ask what Mr. Popik's life story anecdotes have to do with the study > > of dialects? > > > Quite a lot, usually. Please don't discourage him. I always read his posts > first. > ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:54:52 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: pop one's fingers >At 02:19 PM 10/3/97 -0400, you (Robert Ness ) wrote: >>Some West Africans, Ghanaians especially, "pop their fingers," as it's >>called, by flipping or snapping the wrist so that the index finger "pops" >>sharply against the thumb and middle-finger. The gesture expresses >>surprise or amazement. I've not seen it done here, or even so referred to, >>but like West African tooth-sucking (expressive of contempt) it may have >>made it across the Atlantic into the south or the Caribbean. > >The gesture you describe (where one puts the tips of the thumb and >middle-finger together and then snaps the first finger against them by >sharply moving the wrist downwards) is universally used in Brasil to express >surprise or excitement, positive or negative. Brasilians are unfamiliar with >the way people from the US snap fingers (as described by Joan Houston Hall >in the very first post in this thread), and I have never seen it done the >Brasilian way in the US though that doesn't mean it hasn't been. > >Anyway, I didn't mention in my prior post on the "finger pop" phrase that >the context of the song I cited seems to suggest that the gesture expresses >contempt or disdain (i.e., the popper/snapper doesn't care about the person >or situation s/he is popping or snapping at). > >See also OED thrip v. (with citations back to the 16C) and "finger-snap" >(under finger n.) for the idea of snapping one's fingers in contempt or to >express worthlessness etc. An electronic search of OED2 for various ways >that "to *pop* the/one's fingers" might have showed up there yielded nothing. > >Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ........................ Mexican American children in South Texas schools pop their fingers (as described by Robert Ness) when holding up their hands in attempting to get the teacher's attention when a question is asked of the whole class. It is done with much enthusiasm, accompanied by "Miss" or "Mister." In my memory it was universal in the 1940s, and I saw the same gesture in 1988 when I visited a sixth-grade class on the Mexican border. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:57:19 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS Subject: An R-full mess Can anyone point me to recent work on post-vocalic r's? Along with the other resonant consonants, it's probably responsible for more front and back vowel merger/collapses than the recent earthquakes in Italy. Actually, the point of my question comes from a recent conversation with a student in one of my classes. In the class I interview and record each student and ask each student to use himself as the basis for a research project. After the recent interview session, this student was concerned about his transcription of post-vocalic R's. By the by, he is good at transciption and has a good ear. He said that his r's just didn't sound like those of the other people in the class (He also speaks French and spent last summer in France.) In response, and I may not have used the right terms, about which I am asking advice now, I told him that his post-vocalic r's were tauto-syllabic, representing a CVC syllabic structure (for the pronuncation of say, "car") whereas his classmates were syllabifying the r, resulting in what is really a CVV syllabic structure. In replying, please feel free to correct my use of terminology. But I would also like to know of work that looks at this difference, which impressionistically seems to me to be a significant variable. CJ Bailey comments on the difference in an ERIC paper, but I haven't found any other discussion of any substance. Help if you can. (Bailey suggests, if I read him correctly, that the difference is the defining variable of regional speech in American English.) Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 20:53:18 -0500 From: Chris Corcoran Subject: Re: dialect in literature You also might want to check out Ambrose Gonzales' introduction to the Black Border 1922. I guess you could say all of what Gonzales writes is dialect so he isn't exactly an example of dialect in literature but literary dialect, or something like that. Anyway, in his introduction he evaluates a number of 19th and early 20th century examples of both writers who wrote stories entirely in dialect as well as writers who use dialects in their stories. Of course, Gonzales says some crazy things, but it might be interesting to see who he chose to evaluate. Chris Corcoran ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Christine Corcoran Linguistics Univ of Chicago Kapu Sehns Noh Kapu Wohd "Focus on the meaning, not the words" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:35:19 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: dialect in literature Along these lines, see Katherine Wyly Mille's essay, "Ambrose Gonzales's Gullah: What It May Tell Us about Variation" in _Language Variety in the South Revisited_, just out from The Univ of Alabama Press. Marianne Cooley also has a relevant essay in this volume on the representation of African-American English in _The Padlock_, a play produced in the 1760s in London and New York. Cynthia Bernstein On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Chris Corcoran wrote: > You also might want to check out Ambrose Gonzales' introduction to the > Black Border 1922. I guess you could say all of what Gonzales writes is > dialect so he isn't exactly an example of dialect in literature but > literary dialect, or something like that. Anyway, in his introduction he > evaluates a number of 19th and early 20th century examples of both writers > who wrote stories entirely in dialect as well as writers who use dialects > in their stories. Of course, Gonzales says some crazy things, but it might > be interesting to see who he chose to evaluate. > > Chris Corcoran > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Christine Corcoran > Linguistics > Univ of Chicago > > Kapu Sehns Noh Kapu Wohd > "Focus on the meaning, not the words" > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:37:54 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: pop one's fingers I'd written earlier that none of my Auburn, Alabama, students claimed to use the expression. However, I've found one native Alabamian woman in her 50s who says it's common. A man of about the same age says he's not familiar with the expression. I'll try to check it out among some older adults. Cynthia Bernstein ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 21:46:54 -0500 From: Dan Goodman Subject: womanist "The Rev. Alika Galloway brings a womanist theological perspective to her emerging church in North Minneapolis...." The Minnesota Women's Press Vol. 13, No. 13 September 17-30, 1997. Pages 1 & 16. To be more precise, Kwanzaa Presbyterian New Church Development's minister has a vision of a womanist, Africanist church. The Women's Press uses "feminist" elsewhere in the same issue. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Oct 1997 to 7 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 There are 24 messages totalling 773 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees 2. An R-full mess (2) 3. dialect in literature 4. womanist 5. The Lords Prayer/Ebonics (4) 6. Xhosa 7. Imperative "BE+like" 8. Weeds (2) 9. pop one's fingers -Reply (2) 10. railroad daisy (2) 11. widow's weeds 12. Dialect in Literature 13. pop one's fingers (2) 14. Edward Arnold 15. Law & Society Ass'n Annual Call for Papers: Language and Law 16. Widow's Weeds ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 01:42:32 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Subject: Re: "The Backbone of America"; First Monday in October; NY Yankees Sorry for the two offending paragraphs. Ellis Island ("First Monday in October") has a lot to do with American dialects and American Speech. Actually, it probably influenced American speech more than anything else. It's an important Supreme Court case. Ellis Island gets lots of visitors from all different countries. It would be an ideal place for a center/museum for the study of American dialects and names. So I've been trying-- I've felt pretty bad this year. I feel a lot worse now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:21:47 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Re: An R-full mess On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, TERRY IRONS wrote: }Can anyone point me to recent work on post-vocalic r's? Along with the }other resonant consonants, it's probably responsible for more front and }back vowel merger/collapses than the recent earthquakes in Italy. In the journal _English Language and Linguistics_ Heinz Giegerich deals with the long vowels /O:/ and /A:/ of RP. While this may not seem relevant, it talks about how these vowels are used in the loss of rhoticity and suggests a syllabic structure which, if you use your imagination, can be applied to us R-full speakers. I believe the publish date was April 1997. It's a new journal, so your library may not have subscribed to it yet. ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Ph.D. Candidate http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Department of Linguistics fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:09:38 -0400 From: Patrick Courts Subject: Re: dialect in literature Sorry to bother dialecticians with this, but I have no other immediate source. Do any of you know if (and how long) Xnghossa (South african "click" language that I may have misspelled) has a writing system of the language. how are the clicks "written"? thanks. Cheers, Pat Patrick L. Courts Professor of English State University of New York at Fredonia Fredonia, NY 14063 e-mail: courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 08:25:20 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: womanist womanist and feminist are not synonyms, dan. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:03:04 -0400 From: Carol Andrus Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics I got this from a friend this morning, not in ADS, but I thought some of you might find this interesting. By the way, there is an African-American Bible, pub. by African-American Family Press 1993, that goes (In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth, and the Earth was without form and void): Now when the Almighty was first down with His program, He made the Heavens and the earth. The earth was a fashion misfit, being so uncool and dark... --------------------- Forwarded message: From: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com (maryanne j raphae) To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Date: 97-10-07 16:25:34 EDT --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: tomepatterson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com (Thomas E Patterson) To: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com Subject: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:42:43 PST Message-ID: <19970125.164244.6782.0.tomepatterson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com> No doubt some Bible societies will feel compelled to publish a new translation of the Holy Scriptures in the newly discovered language of Ebonics. Here's a head start for them. EBONICS ENGLISH Big Daddy's Rap The Lord's Prayer Yo, Bid Daddy upstairs, Our Father, who art in heaven You be chillin' Hallowed be thy name So be yo hood Thy Kingdom come You be sayin' it, I be doin' it Thy will be done In this here hood and yo's On earth as it is in heaven Gimme some eats Give us this day our daily bread And cut me some slack, Blood And forgive us our trespasses Sos I be doin' it to dem dat diss me As we forgive those who trespass against us don't be pushing me into no jive And lead us not into temptation and keep dem Crips away But deliver us from evil 'Cause you always be da Man For thine is the Kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever. Aaa-men Amen --------- End forwarded message ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:00:25 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Xhosa >Sorry to bother dialecticians with this, but I have no other immediate >source. Do any of you know if (and how long) Xnghossa (South african >"click" language that I may have misspelled) has a writing system of the >language. how are the clicks "written"? thanks. The language in question is Xhosa (more formally, isiXhosa), and the X there is the representation of one of the three positions in which clicks occur, the lateral one. Besides the laterals, there are retroflex or palatal (or "domal") clicks, represented as Q, and dental/alveolar clicks, represented as C. Any of these can be "voiced" (the voicing is phonetically realized by its effect on the adjacent vowel tone; in fact I think a voiced click per se is physically impossible), or nasalized (represented with an N before the click letter), or aspirated (represented with an H after the click letter, as in the name of the language). Sister languages in the southern Bantu group that have clicks are Zulu and Ndebele. The true "click languages", though, are from an unrelated family, Khoisan (the one spoken in the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" which may or may not help), e.g. (in the Western naming tradition) Bushman and Hottentot. It is these languages from which the southern Bantu ones borrowed their clicks, and in the Khoisan languages I understand they're much more prevalent. (Sorry I can't answer your question about how long Xhosa has been written.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:21:24 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics I'd be interested in knowing what other people think of that "translation," but I at any rate don't think it has much to do with the serious study of Black English; it came out around the time of the controversy over Ebonics, and was I think intended as a satire on the language, not a representation of it. Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:49:38 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics Your start your posting right, Carol, that you "thought some of [us] might find this interesting." I am one of those that do not. Your posting reminds me of some others, of a few months back, when I wondered whether it was the laypeople who produced jokes about "Ebonics" who were misinformed or the ADS-List members who reported them, and for what intellectual purpose, I may ask. Do you know of any African-American family in which the variety putatively adopted in the Bible translation, per your example, is the default vernacular? Or are we back to the days when we discussed how people cook chittlins... just to satisfy some emotions but with little contribution to our intellectual curiosities? Best, Sali. ====================================== >I got this from a friend this morning, not in ADS, but I thought some of you >might find this interesting. >By the way, there is an African-American Bible, pub. by African-American >Family Press 1993, that goes (In the beginning, God created the Heavens and >the Earth, and the Earth was without form and void): Now when the Almighty >was first down with His program, He made the Heavens and the earth. The earth >was a fashion misfit, being so uncool and dark... >--------------------- >Forwarded message: >From: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com (maryanne j raphae) >To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com >Date: 97-10-07 16:25:34 EDT > >--------- Begin forwarded message ---------- >From: tomepatterson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com (Thomas E Patterson) >To: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com >Subject: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics >Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:42:43 PST >Message-ID: <19970125.164244.6782.0.tomepatterson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com> > >No doubt some Bible societies will feel compelled to publish a new >translation of the Holy Scriptures in the newly discovered language >of Ebonics. > >Here's a head start for them. > > EBONICS ENGLISH > >Big Daddy's Rap The Lord's Prayer > >Yo, Bid Daddy upstairs, Our Father, who art in heaven > >You be chillin' Hallowed be thy name > >So be yo hood Thy Kingdom come > >You be sayin' it, I be doin' it Thy will be done > >In this here hood and yo's On earth as it is in heaven > >Gimme some eats Give us this day our daily >bread > >And cut me some slack, Blood And forgive us our trespasses > >Sos I be doin' it to dem dat diss me As we forgive those who >trespass > against >us > >don't be pushing me into no jive And lead us not into >temptation > >and keep dem Crips away But deliver us from evil > >'Cause you always be da Man For thine is the Kingdom, the >power > and the glory, forever and >ever. > >Aaa-men Amen > > > > > > > >--------- End forwarded message ---------- ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 10:40:18 -0500 From: Mai Kuha Subject: Imperative "BE+like" Earlier this week I heard "BE+like" in the imperative for the first time, and thought it was so neat that I just have to tell someone, so here you go: I was at a discount store (here in Bloomington, Indiana) and one of the other shoppers was not finding an item she was looking for. Her companion, a male in his teens, suggested: "The next time you see someone wearing it, be like: 'where did you get that?'" Maybe this is old news and I just haven't been paying attention. But, if this is new, I would think the occurrence of the expression in the imperative is a sign that it is being used in a greater variety of contexts, so maybe its use is increasing. Also, "BE+like" in this context must mean "say" rather than "think/feel", because it doesn't make much sense to tell someone to have a particular cognitive state. -Mai .............................. Mai Kuha mkuha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu http://php.indiana.edu/~mkuha/home.html .............................. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 09:16:56 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Weeds I don't remember where I first encountered the term "widow's weeds," but it was clear to me that it was archaic/literary, and it was always clear from the context that it meant "clothes that a widow wears to a funeral." I don't think I've ever run across this "weed" ( Subject: Re: pop one's fingers -Reply FWIW, I am a native Alabamian (born in Montgomery in 1962), and I don't use this term; I say "snap" instead. However, the person I remember using the term most (and I don't remember her ever using "snap") was an African-American woman born in 1902 on a farm near Montgomery. She was a very dear friend of my family, and I spent the vast majority of my time with her when I was a child. And she was in fact the person who taught me how to "pop" my fingers! I must have used "pop" as a child (I adopted many of the features of her dialect), but I don't recall the switch to "snap." Elizabeth Gregory e-gregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:03:39 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: railroad daisy We've come across two instances of the term "railroad daisy," both from Louisiana. It's used in reference to troublesome weeds and to roadside flowers. Is anyone else familiar with it? Can you identify it more specifically? Thanks-- Joan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 12:16:51 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: widow's weeds DARE's files have two nineteenth-century quotes for weeds: 1890 Holley _Samantha among the Brethren_ 140 NY, He took it into his head to have a deeper weed at the last minute, so I fixed it on. He had the weed come up to the top of his hat and lap over. I never see so tall a weed. [Here it seems to mean a kind of scarf worn by a mourner at a funeral.] 1899 (1912) Green _VA Folk-Speech_ 478, Weed, n. A garment of any sort, especially the whole garment worn at any time. Now commonly in the plural, and chiefly in the phrase: "Widow's weeds." No DARE Informants offered the term. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 13:48:02 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: pop one's fingers -Reply A friend of mine, African-American, reports that "finger popping" means that one is going out for the evening, as in "Are you going out fingerpopping tonite?" No specific activity is referred to, though dancing is a common meaning. My friend was born in St. Louis, to parents from Alabama and Kentucky. She says that she has heard and used the expression most of her life. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 14:10:43 EDT From: Michael Montgomery Subject: Dialect in Literature With regard to the use of dialect in literature, I don't believe anyone has mentioned the following very useful book-length work: Burkett, Eva M. 1978. American English dialects in literature. Metuchen, NJ: Scarecrow. also I might refer to the lengthy chapter of 149 items in my _Annotated Bibliography of Southern American English_. This includes unpublished dissertations and theses. Graham Shorrocks has a very useful recent essay on the distinction between "dialect in literature" and "literary dialect" in the memorial volume for Ossi Ihalainen, edited by Matti Rissanen et al. in the Bamberg monograph series on English linguistics. Sali, don't be so shocked that Twain and Faulkner and authors of similar stature were so heavily dependent on stereotyping. They knew that this is what their audiences expected. However, a case can be made that they were more successful in differentiating characters and styles through representing dialect; for references, see a number of works in the aforementioned bibliographies. Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 16:09:30 EDT From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: pop one's fingers >>A friend of mine, African-American, reports that "finger popping" means >>that one is going out for the evening, as in "Are you going out >>fingerpopping tonite?" No specific activity is referred to, though dancing >>is a common meaning. My friend was born in St. Louis, to parents from >>Alabama and Kentucky. She says that she has heard and used the expression >>most of her life. This is exactly the same meaning I got from the Hank Ballard hit tune of the late fifties, that a party was about to happen. Hey now, hey now, it's finger pop - poppin' time, Finger poppin', poppin' time, feels so good, and that's a real good sign. Here comes Sally, here comes Sue, Here comes and Bobby too. etc. Of course, as teen-age males, way before Weird Al's time, my friends and I swore that Hank was actually singing a particular four letter word in place of "pop". -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 15:31:01 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: Weeds I know the term, but do not use it. I'm not sure I have ever heard it in conversation, but know it as you do--a literary term. Fritz Juengling St. Cloud State University Minnesota >I don't remember where I first encountered the term "widow's weeds," but >it was clear to me that it was archaic/literary, and it was always clear >from the context that it meant "clothes that a widow wears to a funeral." >I don't think I've ever run across this "weed" (ligature and a macron) either in the singular or without the "widow." > >I was astonished recently to run across someone (a copyeditor for a major >publishing house, yet) who claimed not to understand the term at all, and >further investigation revealed that college-age people I asked not only >had never encountered it but were unable to guess its meaning even when >offered the context, "At the funeral, the grandmother wore widow's weeds." >("Some kind of plant?!" one wondered.) The older the person asked, the >more likely they were to have heard it, or if they said they had never >heard it, they could still guess that it meant mourning clothes generally >or perhaps some specific item of clothing. > >My question: does anyone know if this term ("weed" or "weeds," with or >without the widow) survives anywhere in living speech? > >Peter McGraw Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:16:01 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: pop one's fingers As Robert Ness suggested, popping one's fingers is a gesture known in the Caribbean too. I can't tell you for sure if that term is used, but when I grew up in Jamaica the gesture was comnmon among children and young people, often accompanied by raised eyebrows and opened mouth, as an expression of surprise but sometimes directed at others, as in, "Oooh, someone's gonna get it!" Jamaica, of course, has strong cultural and linguistic links to Ghana. --peter patrick PS. If you do it wrong or for too long, it really hurtts! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:25:56 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: An R-full mess Terry et al., Tom Veatch wrote a really interesting dissertation on dialects of American English a couple years ago and looked at (R) arguing it was a glide. His email is tv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprex.com, or veatch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bhasha.stanford.edu His diss. was U. Penn 1991, "English Vowels: Their surface phonology and phonetic implementation in vernacular dialects". (He looked at data from Corky Feagin's Anniston Ala. study, my Jamaican Creole study in Kingston, Otto Santa Ana's Chicano English study, and Sherry Ash's Chicago White English data.) --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:21:40 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Edward Arnold I need an email address and the name of a Ling. editor for Edward Arnold. Anybody got one? Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English/Chair, Ling. Prog. 301/1117 McClung Tower University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA 423-974-6965, 423-974-6926 (FAX) EMAIL: Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: [9-12/97: Professorial Lecturer/Dep't of Linguistics/470 ICC/ Georgetown U./ Washington, D.C. 20057/202-687-5956, 202-687-5712 (FAX)] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 19:36:28 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics I know we had a lot of discussion about the purveying of racist jokes (and other kinds) in the wake of the Ebonics controversy. I too think that simply passing them along as "interesting" condones them or lends the mantle of "scientific interest" to behavior that I am sure most people on the list do not tolerate in person, and I would like to second Sali's indignation -- regardless of the motives behind the act. I am chiming in because there IS a way to address the topic usefully as linguists, and that is by considering the materials cited in the light of language ideology research. Maggie Ronkin and Helen Karn, students here at Georgetown's program, will be presenting a paper on this topic at aDS in NYC, likening "Mock Ebonics" to Jane Hill's work on "Junk Spanish" as a system of strategies for representing racist stereotypes. Since I don't want to seem to take credit for the ideas, which are Maggie and Helen's own, I won't summarize them here, but Maggie is on the list and I'm sure wo0uldn't mind if interested people contacted her on the topic at ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu I recommend the talk to all, having heard an early version of it in my AAVE seminar a few weeks ago. --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 09:05:06 +0900 From: Dazaifu Tara Subject: Re: railroad daisy Railroad daisies are yellow wildflowers with brown centers. (I'm a native of the New Orleans area, but I have never heard the term there. My mother's family is from a small town called Plaquemine, near Baton Rouge, and people in her family often use it.) > We've come across two instances of the term "railroad daisy," both from > Louisiana. It's used in reference to troublesome weeds and to roadside > flowers. Is anyone else familiar with it? Can you identify it more > specifically? > > Thanks-- > > Joan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 22:43:13 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Law & Society Ass'n Annual Call for Papers: Language and Law The annual meeting of the Law & Society Ass'n will be at Snowmass Village, Aspen, Colorado, USA, June 4-7, 1998. The theme is "Making Connections Across Disciplines, Theories, and Methods." In recent years (since 1990), this Association has featured 2-4 panels on language and law, as well as related presentations of interest to linguists. Abstracts and other proposals for participation are due December 16, 1997. It has been a custom of several of us interested in language and law to propose panels prior to the deadline. Typically, we take turns receiving abstracts and proposing panels, including chairs. This year, Ron Butters and I have offered to coordinate proposals. He and I will meet on the weekend of Nov. 1-2 for that purpose. We hope to have all session proposals complete by November 2. If you are interested in proposing a paper or other kind of presentation, and would like to have it included in the proposals we will prepare, please send me an abstract using the guide below. I can accept proposals through noon on October 29 via snail-mail (to my U. of Tennessee address below). PLEASE NOTE THE NEW REQUIREMENT FOR A CHECK OR CREDIT CARD SIGNATURE (BELOW). Because of the new requirement, please note that you will have to mail your proposal; please allow time for it to arrive. I am leaving for Durham on the morning of October 30. Some of us hope that a number of linguists will submit abstracts for papers that may go into sessions other than language & law sessions (although we also hope that there will be 2-3 such sessions). Ron and I will be glad to coordinate the submission of those abstracts. Our goal is to avoid the scheduling of sessions involving language and law at the same time during the program. (We have been very successful in achieving that goal in the past by coordinating our submissions.) The abstract form requires all the information requested below (no need for anonymity). FOR THE FIRST TIME, ALL PROPOSALS MUST ALSO BE ACCOMPANIED BY AN "ADMINISTRATION PROCESSING FEE" OF $25 ($5 FOR STUDENTS). THIS PER-PARTICIPANT (NOT PER-PARTICIPATION) FEE WILL BE REFUNDED IF THE PROPOSED PRESENTATION IS NOT ACCEPTED BY THE PROGRAM COMMITTEE; OTHERWISE, IT WILL BE CREDITED TOWARD THE REGISTRATION FEE (NO REFUNDS FOR WITHDRAWALS OR NO-SHOWS.) YOU MUST INCLUDE A CHECK FOR $25 WITH YOUR ABSTRACT OR ELSE SEND US A COPY OF YOUR INDIVIDUAL PROPOSAL FORM (AVAILABLE FROM THE WEBSITE) INCLUDING YOUR CREDIT CARD NO., EXPIRATION DATE, AND SIGNATURE. IF YOU DO NOT SEND US EITHER A CHECK OR A SIGNED FORM, WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO INCLUDE YOUR PROPOSAL. THE ONLY PERSONS WHO DO NOT HAVE TO PAY THE FEE ARE NON-PRESENTING CO-AUTHORS AND THOSE WHOSE ONLY MEETING PARTICIPATION IS AS A PANEL CHAIR OR DISCUSSANT. Additional information will be available (and updated frequently) at the L&SA website: www.umass.edu/legal/lsa/ INFORMATION THAT WE NEED: NAME: ADDRESS: TEL: FAX: EMAIL ADDRESS: POSITION OR TITLE: INSTITUTIONAL AFFILIATION: PRESENTATION AND TITLE PRESENTATION TYPE: PAPER _____ POSTER _____ (WE WILL SUPPLY KEYWORD NOS.) ABOVE INFO FOR CO-AUTHOR, IF ANY: A-V REQUIREMENTS: >>>>>ADMINISTRATION PROCESSING FEE CHECK: YOU MUST INCLUDE A CHECK FOR $25 OR A SIGNED PROPOSAL FORM.<<<<< I look forward to receiving your proposals. Please do not foget to send a check or a signed proposal form. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English/Chair, Ling. Prog. 301/1117 McClung Tower University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA 423-974-6965, 423-974-6926 (FAX) EMAIL: Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: [9-12/97: Professorial Lecturer/Dep't of Linguistics/470 ICC/ Georgetown U./ Washington, D.C. 20057/202-687-5956, 202-687-5712 (FAX)] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 23:52:11 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Widow's Weeds At 03:31 PM 10/8/97 -0600, you wrote: >I know the term, but do not use it. I'm not sure I have ever heard it in >conversation, but know it as you do--a literary term. >Fritz Juengling, St. Cloud State University, Minnesota > On "widow's weeds": I imagine this is one very common way words become literary -- the custom that gives it a reason for being dies out, after which point the only people who know it are those who see it in books, in contexts from, treating, or evoking the past. In OED2, the only examples of "widow[']s weeds" in the citational material occur between 1700 and 1890. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Oct 1997 to 9 Oct 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 2. dialect in literature 3. Widow's Weeds 4. womanist and feminist 5. The Lords Prayer/Ebonics (2) 6. Weeds 7. What's a chrome? 8. An R-full mess (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 00:54:15 -0400 From: Bryan Gick Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 > Any of these can be "voiced" (the voicing is phonetically realized by > its effect on the adjacent vowel tone; in fact I think a voiced click > per se is physically impossible), or nasalized (represented with an N > before the click letter), or aspirated (represented with an H after the > click letter, as in the name of the language). Nope, there are bona fide voiced clicks (even ones with various laryngeal qualities like laryngealization (creaky) and breathy voicing). The clicks use a "velaric ingressive" mechanism to produce airflow, meaning that there's a simultaneous velar tongue closure (as in k or g) and a second "place of articulation" closure at the lips (in the case of a "kiss"), the teeth (in the case of "tut-tut"), or the like. While the velar closure is held throughout, the tongue blade, cheeks or other movable parts pull away creating a "suction" between the velum and the more front closure. Then, when the front closure is released (either centrally or laterally), the air rushing in creates a popping sound. Then, after all this is done, the velar closure is released and on goes the utterance (whew!). The point of all this is that, regardless of what's going on in front of the velar closure, you're still essentially just holding a velar stop. So, depending on what you're doing with your glottis, you could be making a k, a kh, a g or an eng, as you see fit. Ask me tomorrow what this has to do with American dialects. Bryan /\------------------------------------------------------- [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]|Bryan Gick Department of Linguistics < >bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pantheon.yale.edu Yale University '/ (203)772-2549 and Haskins Laboratories W-------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 07:21:14 +0100 From: FUENCISLA GARCIA-BERMEJO GINER Subject: Re: dialect in literature Just a few more references. Barnes, Verle. "Dialect in Southern Fiction" Southern Conference on English in the Two-Year College Newsletter 13.1 (1980): 44-45. Bennett, J., "George Savary Wasson's Approach to Dialect Writing." American Speech 54 (1979): 90-101. Billups, Edgar P. "Some Principles for the representation of Negro Dialect in Fiction". Texas Review 8 (1923): 99-123. Brown, C.S., A Glossary of Faulkner's South. New Haven: Yale University Press, 1976. Cole, Roger. "Literary Representation of Dialect". University of South Florida Language Quarterly 24 (1986): 3-4. 3-8. Evans, William W. "Literary Dialects". Encyclopaedia of Southern Culture. ed. by William Ferris and Charles Wilson. Chapel Hill: The University of North Carolina Press. Fenno, Charles R. "Nineteenth-Century Illinoia Dialect: Robert Casey". American Speech 58 (Fall 83): 244-54. Fine, Elizabeth C. "In Defense of Literary Dialect: A Response to Dennis R. Preston". Journal of American Folklore 96.381 (1983): 323-330. Fine, Marlene G. and C. Anderson. "Dialect Features in the Language of Black Characters on American Television Programming". Educational Resources Information Center Document (1978). Florey, Kenneth. "Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin". Explicator 45.1 (Fall 1986): 20-21. Foster, Charles W., The Phonology of the Conjure Tales of Charles W.Chesnutt, Publication of the American Dialect Society 55, April 1971. Gillespie, Elizabeth. "The Dialect of the Mississippi Negro in Literature". Ph. D. Diss., University of Mississippi, 1939. Ives, S., "The Phonology of the Uncle Remus Stories". Publications of the American Dialect Society 22 (1954): 3-59. Lencho. Mark W. "Dialect Variation in The Sound and the Fury : A Study of Faulkner's Use of Black English". The Mississippi Quarterly 41 (Summer 1988): 403-19. Levenston, E.A. "Literary Dialect in George V. Higgins' The Judgement of Deke Hunter ". English Studies 62.4 (Aug. 1981): 358-70. Levy, Andrew. "Dialect and Convention: Harriet A. Jacob's Incidents in the life of a slave girl". Nineteenth Century Literature 45 (Sept. 1990): 206-19. Macaulay, Ronald K.S. "Coz it izny spelt when they say it", displaying dialect in writing". American Speech 66 (Fall 1991): 280-91. Mahar, William J. "Black English in Early Blackface Minstrelsy: A new Interpretation of the Sources of minstrel Show Dialect". American Quarterly 37 (Summer 1985): 260-85. Pederson, Lee."Mark Twain's Missouri Dialects: Marion County Phonemics." American Speech 44 (1969): 279-86. ------. "Language in the Uncle Remus Tales". Modern Philology 82 (Feb. 1985): 292-98. ------. "Rewriting Dialect Literature: The Wonderful Tar-Baby Story". Atlanta Historical Journal 30. 3-4 (1986-87): 57-70. Peterson, P.W. "The Misuses and Dangers of Literary Dialect as Linguistic Data". Papers in Linguistics 1974-77: A Collection of M.A. Papers from Students in the Linguistics Department of Northeastern Illinois University. Edutational Resources Information Centre Document (1978): 163-760. Riley, James Whitcomb. "Dialect in Literature". Forum 14 (1892): 465-73. Schlager, Walter B. "A practical use for literary dialect applied to the works of Flannery O'Connor". Ph. d. diss., University of Nevada, Las Vegas, 1974. Sewel, David R. Mark Twain's Languages: Discourse, Dialogue and Linguistic Variety. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1987. Shores, David L. and Carole P. Hines,eds. Papers in Language Variation: SAMLA-ADS Collection. Alabama: University of Alabama Press, 1977. Walton, Gerald W. "Some Southern Farm Terms in Faulkner's Go Down, Moses" Publications of the American Dialect Society 47 (April 1967) : 23-29. Williamson , J. and Virginia M. Burke.eds. A Various Language: Perspective on American Dialects. New York: Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1971. Maria F. Garcia-Bermejo Giner Departamento de Filologia Inglesa C. Placentinos 18 Universidad de Salamanca Salamanca 37008, Spain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 08:36:24 +0000 From: Victoria Neufeldt Subject: Re: Widow's Weeds I was surprised to learn that "widow's weeds" was unknown to people. Although it certainly isn't as common as it was, and the custom of wearing mourning is no longer widespread, I would not be surprised to encounter it in everyday text. To check this out, I went through the Merriam citation files for "weed(s)" -- which was quite a chore, given all the different meanings. I found cites as recent as 1993. Excerpts from a few cites (including one from _Time_ with a totally contemporary context): Conor Cruise O'Brian, writing in _The Atlantic_, Jan, 1993: ". . . were a bit cynical about those widow's weeds and about some of the contexts in which she paraded them." Francine Russo, in _The Village Voice_, Sept 28, 1993: "The three grieving Theban widows, who set the plot in motion with a plea to Athenian Duke Theseus for redress, trail black weeds worthy of a Victorian bordello." Eudora Welty, _One Writer's Beginnings_, 1983: "At that point, Mrs. McWillie, that stern fourth-grade teacher, would let her children close their books, and she would move, broad in widow's weeds like darkness itself, to the window and by what light there was she would stand and read aloud 'The King of the Golden River.' " "The Secret Weapon," _Time Magazine_, Oct 14, 1985: "Few outside the Kremlin knew if Yuri Adropov even had a wife until Tatyana, dressed in widow's weeds, appeared at her husband's bier." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 12:04:34 -0500 From: Dan Goodman Subject: womanist and feminist Beth Simon says "womanist" and "feminist" are not synonyms. I would like to know what the distinction is, and where/how "womanist" originated. Working from the meanings of "woman" and "feminine," I can come up with a logical distinction. But I don't think "womanist applies to female human beings, feminist to females of all species" is what Beth had in mind. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 17:10:09 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Salikoko S. Mufwene wrote: > may ask. Do you know of any African-American family in which the variety > putatively adopted in the Bible translation, per your example, is the > default vernacular? Or are we back to the days when we discussed how people > cook chittlins... just to satisfy some emotions but with little > contribution to our intellectual curiosities? If you really want to be concerned, you can look at the texts published as examples of Ebonics (John Milton, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, etc.). (http://novusordo.com/indexn.htm) I don't mention this as an attempt to promote distribution of these ecamples, but to point out what many people on the Web are reading as examples. One of my students found this site when doing a class exercise to find information and discussion about Ebonics. So now I plan to do a class exercise in which students analyze one of the examples using summaries of legitimate research. My point is that these examples are there. People will read them, and teachers may consider using them as examples. I want my students to be informed on the subject and able to make judgments about such examples. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 20:04:55 -0500 From: Salikoko Mufwene Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics At 05:10 PM 10/9/97 -0400, Jeutonne Brewer wrote: >On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Salikoko S. Mufwene wrote: > >If you really want to be concerned, you can look at the texts >published as examples of Ebonics (John Milton, Elizabeth Barrett >Browning, etc.). (http://novusordo.com/indexn.htm) I don't mention >this as an attempt to promote distribution of these ecamples, but to >point out what many people on the Web are reading as examples. One of my >students found this site when doing a class exercise to find information >and discussion about Ebonics. So now I plan to do a class exercise >in which students analyze one of the examples using summaries of >legitimate research. My point is that these examples are there. >People will read them, and teachers may consider using them as >examples. I want my students to be informed on the subject and >able to make judgments about such examples. > Jeutonne: Perhaps we cannot prevent people from creating websites where incorrect information is disseminated. Perhaps we should even tolerate their existence, in the spirit of freedom of speech. In the same spirit also we can express our displeasure at INACCURATE information being circulated/promoted about a particular variety, especially on the ADS-List for entertainment purposes, at the expense of the very people some of us are making good academic careers out of. (What I found inaccurate in Carol's posting is the adoption and presentation of a "street variety", which regular speakers of the vernacular we study, do not often recognize as the variety that they speak--it is certainly not their home vernacular nor the one they themselves would choose for the Bible.) Now, I have no objection to directing students to such sites. I would too, telling them that of course that is not the basic AAVE vernacular that I have heard people use in their homes--in the original sense of "vernacular" as 'home variety'. It is not clear to me that several postings I have seen on "Ebonics" really have the same motives that you have expressed here. I must say I did not recognize that kind of intention in Carol's posting. If I missed it, I apologize to her. Thank you for the website address. I will check it out. Sali. =================================================================== Salikoko S. Mufwene Tph: (773)702-8531 University of Chicago Fax: (773)834-0924 Department of Linguistics e-mail: s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 (USA) =================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:26 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Re: Weeds In a message dated 97-10-08 12:29:42 EDT, you write: << I don't remember where I first encountered the term "widow's weeds," but it was clear to me that it was archaic/literary, >> Most of us probably first encountered it in Shakespeare. "Weeds" occurs 46 times in his works and several times it refers to clothes. Midsummernights Dream "Weeds of Athens he doth wear" Twelfth Night "my maiden weeds" Much Ado "put on other weeds" Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:35 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Re: What's a chrome? Here in NJ apparently the latest thing for adolescent boys to do is go out and steal chromes off cars. Some 14 year olds I know were caught doing this yesterday and are in big trouble. But none of us adults can figure out what chromes are. Anybody know or heard this? Are they decorative or functional? Dale Coye The College of NJ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 23:01:33 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Re: An R-full mess Terry Irons writes << I told him that his post-vocalic r's were tauto-syllabic, representing a CVC syllabic structure (for the pronuncation of say, "car") whereas his classmates were syllabifying the r, resulting in what is really a CVV syllabic structure. >> I'd like to pursue this. I've always thought "car" as CVC with /r/ as a consonant works for Scots, or some other trilled or flapped varieties, but for Am Eng. isn't /r/ always retroflexive and in fact not a real consonant at all? Someone suggested it's a glide, but aren't glides really vowels in word final position? The glide /w/ is the same as /u/ or /U/ in, for ex., "mow" /mou/- the glide is generated when a vowel follows, e.g., in "mowing" /'mowIng/. That is to say, "mow" has a diphthong. Similarly the combinations heard in "ear, air, are, oar, ewer" are really diphthongs, aren't they? We just don't ever call them that. Consonant means the air flow is obstructed and I don't think there's any obstruction for Am. /r/-- maybe someone more up on phonetics can help here. So getting back to the original post, I'd say we should distinguish between utterances with CV (my own pronunciation of "car", with /ar/ as a diphthong, and CVV, where the final V has its own syllable. I'm trying to think of a minimal pair-- maybe "bar" (diphthong) and a person who says "Bah!" Bah-er where the fina "-er" really is it's own syllable. But to call it CVC is perhaps misleading. Dale Coye Dept. of Eng. The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Oct 1997 22:42:39 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: An R-full mess >Terry Irons writes > ><< I told him that his > post-vocalic r's were tauto-syllabic, representing a CVC syllabic > structure (for the pronuncation of say, "car") whereas his classmates > were syllabifying the r, resulting in what is really a CVV syllabic > structure. > >> Dale Coyle Asks: >I'd like to pursue this. I've always thought "car" as CVC with /r/ as a >consonant works for Scots, or some other trilled or flapped varieties, but >for Am Eng. isn't /r/ always retroflexive and in fact not a real consonant at >all? Someone suggested it's a glide, but aren't glides really vowels in word >final position? The glide /w/ is the same as /u/ or /U/ in, for ex., "mow" >/mou/- the glide is generated when a vowel follows, e.g., in "mowing" >/'mowIng/. That is to say, "mow" has a diphthong. Similarly the >combinations heard in "ear, air, are, oar, ewer" are really diphthongs, >aren't they? We just don't ever call them that. Unless the 'CVC' was intended as a notation for the underlying form. If /r/ is a consonant PHONEME in initial position, would it then be a vowel phoneme in post-vocalic position? If a syllable with a vowel follows, some Americans have a linking [r] (kae ri], whereas others have [kae[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]- i], where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]- is intended as hooked schwa, while some will sometimes have the linking -r- and sometimes not. What does this say about the underlying phoneme (or diaphoneme)? >Consonant means the air >flow is obstructed and I don't think there's any obstruction for Am. /r/-- >maybe someone more up on phonetics can help here. So getting back to the >original post, I'd say we should distinguish between utterances with CV (my >own pronunciation of "car", with /ar/ as a diphthong, and CVV, where the >final V has its own syllable. I'm trying to think of a minimal pair-- maybe >"bar" (diphthong) and a person who says "Bah!" Bah-er where the fina "-er" >really is it's own syllable. But to call it CVC is perhaps misleading. Here Dale is giving phonetic descriptions, i.e. descriptions of surface manifestations of underlying phonemes. The original post seems to have mixed phonemic and phonetic notation. Whether in r-less or r-ful speech, description of the American /r/-[r] is r-fully challenging. AMERICAN PRONUNCIATION, which IS available now, doesn't answer Terry's question directly but does discuss some things he doesn't ask about. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Oct 1997 to 9 Oct 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Oct 1997 to 10 Oct 1997 There are 22 messages totalling 576 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What's a chrome? (5) 2. The Lords Prayer/Ebonics (5) 3. Ebonics-Sorry! 4. NPR interviews (4) 5. New word? (4) 6. Edress = email address? 7. land mines (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 00:26:25 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: What's a chrome? Chromes sounds to me like hubcaps, but I don't know if that is the current term. Jeutonne On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, (Dale F. Coye) wrote: > Here in NJ apparently the latest thing for adolescent boys to do is go out > and steal chromes off cars. Some 14 year olds I know were caught doing this > yesterday and are in big trouble. But none of us adults can figure out what > chromes are. Anybody know or heard this? Are they decorative or > functional? > > Dale Coye > The College of NJ. > ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:02:50 -0400 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Salikoko Mufwene wrote: > Perhaps we cannot prevent people from creating websites where incorrect > information is disseminated. Perhaps we should even tolerate their I find this an odd statement coming from someone who studies language usage. Although there is no doubt that the fabricated Ebonics example Carol sent bears little resemblance to how an "Ebonics speaker" might use the dialect, there also is little doubt that this language variety is regular misconstrued by non speakers. Seems that as language scholars, this misappropriation of a dialect -- i.e., "incorrect" examples of Ebonics flying around the net -- should be part of our knowledge inventory. Thus, ADS-L is precisely the type of venue where these examples should be shared. To label any language usage as "incorrect" when people actually use it seems oxymoronic, which is to say contrary to the history of the American Dialect Society's century long mission. Al Futrell -- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville..edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:17:23 -0400 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: What's a chrome? I believe this refers to the luxury car logos that are on the hood of the car. The Mercedes symbol just screws right off. How do I know? Because adolescent boys in my New Jersey home town were doing it when I was a kid in the 60's. Nothing new under the sun. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:56:21 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics At 08:02 AM 10/10/97 -0400, Al Futrell wrote: > I find this an odd statement coming from someone who studies language > usage. Although there is no doubt that the fabricated Ebonics example > Carol sent bears little resemblance to how an "Ebonics speaker" might use > the dialect, there also is little doubt that this language variety is > regular misconstrued by non speakers. Seems that as language scholars, > this misappropriation of a dialect -- i.e., "incorrect" examples of > Ebonics flying around the net -- should be part of our knowledge > inventory. Let's distinguish here between honest misconceptions -- say, "Black English replaces all forms of the verb _to be_ with invariant _be_" -- and the deliberate, puerile misrepresentations exemplified by the "Ebonic Lord's Prayer" and that web site. The latter, as far as I can see, is simply the output of the "jive" program, which has been around for at least ten years. It is no more than a blind text replacement program. For instance, it replaces all instances of "th" with "d", and all instances of "you" with "ya'"; as a consequence, "youth" (in the _Electra_ file) becomes "ya'd". Phrases like "What it is, Mama" seem to be thrown in at random. Why such offensive silliness would require academic analysis is totally beyond me. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:13:00 CST From: "James C. ONeill" Subject: Re: What's a chrome? Jeutonne wrote: >Chromes sounds to me like hubcaps, but I don't know if that is >the current term. I think they're the little emblems that hood ornaments have evolved into. Dodge's five pointed star is especially popular with Satanist wannabes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ Jim O'Neill Bibliographers' Office 278-A Memorial Library University of Wisconsin-Madison (608) 262-9700 oneill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]doit.wisc.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:58:29 -0500 From: William J Stone Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics Thanks to Jeutonne Brewer for the website address. I found the Lord's Prayer in Ebonics very useful and will be checking the website for more examples as soon as I finish my mail. I am currently teaching a class on the language of prejudice and the prayer is an excellent example of just that. It is significant because it demonstrates quite nicely how humor can be used (combined with ignorance) to spread prejudice and misinformation. Used wisely, these examples can be quite productive. William Stone Linguistics Department N.E. Illinois University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 10:04:32 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics Dear Mr. Futrell: Just to reply in same style as your intervention, I see that you are in a Department of Communication. I could not say everthing in one sentence. If you read the whole of my posting, you should notice that I am not opposed to dialectologists being interested in misrepresented "Ebonics". I also make clear in my conditional apology to Carol (no sexism intended here--I have addressed everybody else by first name so far!) what kind of reports on "Ebonics" I object to. Linguists have typically been interested in ill-formed structures too, but not for the satisfaction of some socially biased entertainment, at the expense of some speakers. I think that I say this explicitly in my posting. If you want to challenge me, you should do so on the facts I say. S. Mufwene. ------------------------------------- >On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, Salikoko Mufwene wrote: > >> Perhaps we cannot prevent people from creating websites where incorrect >> information is disseminated. Perhaps we should even tolerate their > >I find this an odd statement coming from someone who studies language >usage. Although there is no doubt that the fabricated Ebonics example >Carol sent bears little resemblance to how an "Ebonics speaker" might use >the dialect, there also is little doubt that this language variety is >regular misconstrued by non speakers. Seems that as language scholars, >this misappropriation of a dialect -- i.e., "incorrect" examples of >Ebonics flying around the net -- should be part of our knowledge >inventory. Thus, ADS-L is precisely the type of venue where these >examples should be shared. To label any language usage as "incorrect" >when people actually use it seems oxymoronic, which is to say contrary to >the history of the American Dialect Society's century long mission. > > >Al Futrell >-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville..edu >-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 >Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 08:38:27 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: What's a chrome? > car. The Mercedes symbol just screws right off. How do I know? Because Since the late 50s that star has been affixed to a transverse bar under the top of the grille by means of a strong spring, allowing the star to be bent this way and that, but not unscrewed or broken off. Serious thieves, of course, can solve the puzzle with a hefty cable cutter, which probably would have been termed a "star buyer" back then if the practice had existed. I suggest this because telephones used to be "liberated" from public booths by means of "phone buyers" wielded by bored adolescents. As Peggy said: nothing new under the sun. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 12:10:47 -0400 From: Carol Andrus Subject: Ebonics-Sorry! Hello Everybody! I'm new on the ADS page, and I forwarded the Ebonics Lord's Prayer that I received a few days ago from a friend. I'm sorry if I've offended anyone...I'm just interested in all forms of language and thought that might be the case for ADS people. I get loads of wonderful things from around the world...samples of English words being integrated into Japanese, Spanish, etc., conversations in Nigerian Pidgeon (sp?), but perhaps these are not in the purview of ADS. Anyway, again, my apology to all, and I really enjoy reading the inquiries and comments. Bye! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 09:30:32 -0800 From: Grant Smith Subject: Re: What's a chrome? I haven't heard the word "chromes" used, but I used to park my car outside my garage (a quiet neighborhood in a small town) until some teenagers (1988) stole the hood ornament and the chrome nameplate, "Impala," off my 1977 Chevrolet. Of course, they needed a cable cutter and chisel type tool. The police told me the teenagers wore such things, usually on their black leather jackets, as trophies and that such action had become very popular. No hubcaps were ever taken, and a week later the police phoned to say the specific items had been located and parents of the teenagers had promised restitution. Grant Smith Eastern Washington University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:11:00 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: NPR interviews I don't recall any references on these screens (pages?) to the August 24th Weekend Sunday interviews with Joan Hall, Frederick Cassidy, and William Labov. The first two gave a nice account of the DARE work, and Labov had some interesting tape snippets illustrating the northern cities shift and the southern shift. I sent off to NPR for the tapes and script, and just used them to provoke a fine class discussion (i.e. lots of student engagement) of slang, leveling, etc. They're good conversation starters, and I'd recommend them to one and all. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:16:18 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: NPR interviews >I don't recall any references on these screens (pages?) to the August 24th >Weekend Sunday interviews with Joan Hall, Frederick Cassidy, and William >Labov. The first two gave a nice account of the DARE work, and Labov had >some interesting tape snippets illustrating the northern cities shift and >the southern shift. I sent off to NPR for the tapes and script, and just >used them to provoke a fine class discussion (i.e. lots of student >engagement) of slang, leveling, etc. They're good conversation starters, >and I'd recommend them to one and all. > >Peter Richardson Peter, can you supply address of NPR? What's the cost of the tape and script? Thanks Fritz Juengling Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:21:47 -0400 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Subject: New word? Maybe I just haven't been paying attention and this word is already widely used, but it's new to me. The following message appeared today in another list: >My messages to . . . keep getting bounced back---does anyone have a >>new edress (are you there . . .)? >> > A nice blend, I think, and it actually fills a semantic gap. It's not in DARE or RHHDAS, but those (and the last three issues of _American Speech_) are the only places I checked. Virginia Clark Emeritus Professor of English University of Vermont 400 Old Mill, P.O. Box 54030 Burlington, VT 05405-4030 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:36:42 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Edress = email address? At 04:21 PM 10/10/97 -0400 "Virginia P. Clark" wrote: >edress [ = email address] > I can't say that I've seen it, but given how many linguistic innovations the electronic realm is encouraging that doesn't prove it isn't common. "Email" and "ecash" I've certainly seen; I also have them attested in a printed source here at my desk. To find out how new "edress" is or isn't, and how much currency it has, maybe one would check those "internet terminology/jargon/lingo" files that one can download around the internet, and see if "edress" shows up a lot, a little, or not at all. It definitely sounds like an e-nnovation, anyway.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:37:51 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn Subject: Re: New word? >Maybe I just haven't been paying attention and this word is already widely >used, but it's new to me. The following message appeared today in another >list: > >>My messages to . . . keep getting bounced back---does anyone have a >>>new edress (are you there . . .)? It is, in fact, in use, though I'm not sure how widely. I first heard it used by John Plunkett, the art director at Wired, and I think it's it fairly widespread usage throughout Wired Ventures. I'm surprised it's not in Wired Style. I almost included it in the book version of Jargon Watch and I'm not even sure why I didn't. A quick search on AltaVista yields 259 matches (Web) and 49 (Usenet). Gareth -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:58:53 -0400 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: New word? -----Original Message----- From: Gareth Branwyn To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, October 10, 1997 4:38 PM Subject: Re: New word? >>Maybe I just haven't been paying attention and this word is already widely >>used, but it's new to me. The following message appeared today in another >>list: >> >>>My messages to . . . keep getting bounced back---does anyone have a >>>>new edress (are you there . . .)? > >It is, in fact, in use, though I'm not sure how widely. I first heard it used >by John Plunkett, the art director at Wired, and I think it's it fairly >widespread usage throughout Wired Ventures. I'm surprised it's not in Wired >Style. I almost included it in the book version of Jargon Watch and I'm not >even sure why I didn't. A quick search on AltaVista yields 259 matches (Web) >and 49 (Usenet). Rats. I thought we were saving "edress" for Microsoft Virtual Clothes. Which way to the egress? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 14:00:45 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: New word? > >My messages to . . . keep getting bounced back---does anyone have a > >>new edress (are you there . . .)? > >> _edress_ is clearly a nice blend. Maybe that semantic gap Virginia mentioned is already taken up by "return address," but in this case I'd prefer the one-word form because it gives us much more time for the additional foolishness of life. On the other hand, it might be a minority pronunciation of the other Latinate word for "exit"--or even that white bird with the elegant plumage we don't see here in the Northwest. (In the Midwest, of course, a snowy edress must be the way out of a January parking lot.) But wait! certainly this is a shorthand form of a size of apparel, the smallest being an a-dress--although that gets us back to what was probably originally intended. It's clearly time to admit that this is Friday, and that I, for one, need a good long weekend to think this all over. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:43:46 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: NPR interviews Yes, Peter, if you have it, would you please post the ordering information for these? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english department of english and linguistics indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 15:02:12 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: NPR interviews I'll be happy to supply address and cost of the tapes--but it'll have to wait until after the weekend, for I have the information at home. There is the option of getting either the transcript (which contains a hilarious typo) or both the tapes and the transcript; I think the charge for the latter is $20 or so. In any case, I'll post the information early next week. Peter ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 18:04:25 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: land mines Twice today I heard NPR newspersons, one a man, the other a woman (I didn't catch their names) speak of the Nobel peace prize as going to the movement to "band land mines," using an intrusive /d/. Notably, they didn't intrude /d/ when using "ban" or "banning" alone. (And just now a third announcer said the phrase without /d/). Is this a common phenomenon I've just never attended to before? Here in southern Ohio an intrusive /l/ is common, clearly heard with a suffix ("draw(l)ing" but only slightly salient word-final ("mamaw(l)"=grandma). Intrusive /r/ is of course familiar, though my non-using students generalize it to word-final contexts too. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 16:41:41 -0700 From: Garland D Bills Subject: Re: land mines On Fri, 10 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Twice today I heard NPR newspersons, one a man, the other a woman > (I didn't catch their names) speak of the Nobel peace prize as going to > the movement to "band land mines," using an intrusive /d/. Notably, > they didn't intrude /d/ when using "ban" or "banning" alone. (And just > now a third announcer said the phrase without /d/). Is this a common > phenomenon I've just never attended to before? I think this phenomenon is not uncommon. It's simply a natural transition between the two homorganic consonants: a moment of alveolar oral occlusion after raising the velum (to end the nasal) and before the lateral release. The same phenomenon is the pronunciation of "prince" sounding the same as "prints". My impression is that the intrusive segment is more salient in careful speech, as in the situation you refer to, Beverly. Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 20:21:28 +0000 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: The Lords Prayer/Ebonics > Just to reply in same style as your intervention, I see that you are in > a Department of Communication. I could not say everthing in one sentence. Sorry, but you lost me on this one. I don't have any idea what me being in a Communication Department has to do with the issue. You did say suggest that the Ebonics post was "incorrect" and my challenge is simply that I disagree. I couldn't care less what department you are in or where you live for that matter. --Al Futrell, Dept of Comm, Univ of Louisville --awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu --http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Oct 1997 to 10 Oct 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 1997 to 11 Oct 1997 There is one message totalling 20 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. NPR interviews ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 11 Oct 1997 13:18:53 -0500 From: Susan-Marie Harrington Subject: Re: NPR interviews Peter will need to post the dates for the particular shows he mentioned, but in general NPR transcripts cost 17.90 (incl. shipping and handling), and transcripts+ tapes cost between 25-30.00 US. You can call the NPR order center at 1-888-677-6397 (or 301-883-2178, for international calls), or send a check to NPR Order Center, P.O. Box 4370, Upper Marlboro MD 20775-4370. The NPR web site, by the way, is hppt://www.npr.org/ Susanmarie Harrington sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis (317) 278-1153 425 University Boulevard fax: (317) 274-2347 Indianapolis IN 46202-5140 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 1997 to 11 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Oct 1997 to 13 Oct 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 163 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hoosier etimology; Mr. Popick's posts. 2. NPR interviews 3. "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite (3) 4. ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:13:40 +0200 From: Michela & Roberto Subject: Hoosier etimology; Mr. Popick's posts. Dear fellows contributors to this list... About "Hoosier" etimology: many (well, 9) years ago I tried to date a girl from Indianapolis and I asked her about "Hoosier"... She told me it was a kind of a dialectical contraction of "Who's your...?", referred to a question asked in Indiana about who was your favourite candidate for U.S. President. I don't know... it sounded trivial... too simple? I'm sorry for Mr Popick. I say, what's wrong with life story anecdotes? "Homo sum; nihil umanum a me alienum puto." (Terenzius) - I'm a man. I don't think anithing related to man is unrelated to me - Mr Popick, cheer up if you can. Regards, Roberto ****************************************************************** Bogus Prof. Roberto Serrai Dept. of Medieval Metaphysics, Richard U. Pickman Hall Miskatonic University, Arkham, MA ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 08:51:50 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: NPR interviews Here's the information about that NPR interview. The program was Weekend Edition Sunday, 8-24-97. To get the tape and transcript of the DARE spot and the Labov interview (each about 7 minutes), you have to order the whole thing; they're on sides 3 and 4, with the Labov interview--unfortunately!--interrupted at the end of the reel on side 3. (You may want to re-record this part so you have it on one side for class use.) To get the tape and transcript, I called NPR customer service at 800-959-4228. The cost was $24.95, plus $2.95 shipping. The tape came in about a week, although they'd warned me that it might take three. If you prefer to write, the address is NPR - FDCH, INC. 1100 Mercantile Lane Suite #119 Landover, MD 20785 It's possible to order the transcript by itself, or the transcript/tape combo. The tape is not available alone, unfortunately. One can easily listen past the typed "social linguistics" for "sociolinguistics," but Labov's original "75-100 years" comes out "7,500 years"--a slight difference when we're dealing with language history... But otherwise the transcript is pretty good. PR P.S. The address of "Mercantile Lane" above makes me wonder what other utilitarian addresses there might be out there. I'm ashamed to say that we have near us here in western Oregon (of all places!) a "Chem-Spray Lane"--with the Chem-Spray company proudly hunkered down at its terminus. But maybe with all the pseudo stuff around (Oak View Terrace, no oaks in sight) this is just honesty in advertising. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 12:03:40 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite >From the first story in _Publish and Perish: Three Tales of Tenure and Terror_ by James Hynes (1997), p. 6; Paul and Elizabeth have taken their cat in to the vet's to try to discover why she's been missing the litter box. Paul [was] certain that she'd scoff--politely--at the vet's suggestion [viz., to consult a cat psychic]. If anything, Elizabeth had less patience with this sort of New Age occultism than Paul did. It smacked of the sort of essentialist, nurturing, womanist stuff she reviled gleefully and at great length in her own articles on feminist theory. (If you're wondering, they DO consult the psychic, who interviews the cat and immediately determines that her urinary incontinence results from the periodic appearance of a strange woman [the one Paul is having an affair with, as it happens]. Womanist, shwomanist!) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 14:46:30 -0500 From: Mary Bucholtz Subject: Re: "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite I haven't ever encountered this use of "womanist"; the distinction I'm familiar with (and I assume the one Beth had in mind, but she can confirm this) is that many African American women who are sympathetic to (many of) the goals of feminism prefer this term to "feminist," since U.S. feminism has overwhelmingly focused on the concerns of European American women. Alice Walker and bell hooks have both discussed the issue; sorry, I don't have the references here. Mary >>From the first story in _Publish and Perish: Three Tales of Tenure and >>Terror_ >by James Hynes (1997), p. 6; Paul and Elizabeth have taken their cat in to >the vet's to try to discover why she's been missing the litter box. > > Paul [was] certain that she'd scoff--politely--at the vet's > suggestion [viz., to consult a cat psychic]. If anything, > Elizabeth had less patience with this sort of New Age occultism > than Paul did. It smacked of the sort of essentialist, nurturing, > womanist stuff she reviled gleefully and at great length in her > own articles on feminist theory. > >(If you're wondering, they DO consult the psychic, who interviews the cat >and immediately determines that her urinary incontinence results from the >periodic appearance of a strange woman [the one Paul is having an affair >with, as it happens]. Womanist, shwomanist!) > >--Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 17:24:35 -0700 From: "John H. Esling" Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1997 to 8 Oct 1997 Barbara, >John: does this sound reasonable? Barbara. Basically, yes. Talk to you soon. John. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Oct 1997 22:39:39 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite I wasn't sure this one really fit the pattern myself. In the context of the novel I cited, "womanist" seems to correspond to what others have called "difference feminism". But maybe "womanist" is used in both these occasions-- and others--where "feminist", for whatever reason, is inappropriate. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Oct 1997 to 13 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Oct 1997 to 14 Oct 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 274 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite 2. Call: Spanish in US/Contact 3. AmEnglish external sandhi 4. FWD: RCPT: Re: New text books 5. pre-nasalized stops (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:18:00 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite I agree that there are probably other occasions when it might be appropriate. I can foresee it being used, say, for a male author whose writing is distinctly "female" (possessing characteristics of women's writing) rather than feminist (which implies a political agenda). You wouldn't call him a "female" writer (because that implies a distinct gender), or a "feminist" writer (because there is no political agenda), but you might call him a "womanist" writer. (Unless, of course, "womanist" has become associated definitively with politics via Walker and hooks.) I am thinking of a specific author (whose name I can't remember, unfortunately) that is discussed in these terms in literary theory, although I can't remember if the term "womanist" is ever used. Is anyone familiar with such a usage? Jessie Emerson > ---------- > From: Larry Horn[SMTP:LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.ycc.yale.edu] > Sent: Monday, 13 October, 1997 9:39 PM > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "womanist" vs. "feminist" cite > > I wasn't sure this one really fit the pattern myself. In the context > of the > novel I cited, "womanist" seems to correspond to what others have > called > "difference feminism". But maybe "womanist" is used in both these > occasions-- > and others--where "feminist", for whatever reason, is inappropriate. > > Larry > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 09:26:57 -0700 From: Garland D Bills Subject: Call: Spanish in US/Contact CALL FOR PAPERS 7th UNM Conference on Ibero-American Culture & Society: "SPANISH AND PORTUGUESE IN CONTACT WITH OTHER LANGUAGES" jointly with 16th CONFERENCE ON SPANISH IN THE UNITED STATES 12-14 February 1998 University of New Mexico, Albuquerque USA *-*-*-*-* In celebration of the 400th anniversary of the founding *-*-*-* *-*-*-*-* of the first Spanish settlement in New Mexico in 1598 *-*-*-*-* Plenary Speakers: Carol A. Klee (University of Minnesota) Ana Roca (Florida International University) Papers dealing with any aspect of Spanish in the U.S. or of Spanish or Portuguese in contact with other languages are welcome. Oral presentations will be limited to twenty minutes. THE DEADLINE FOR RECEIPT OF ABSTRACTS (MAXIMUM OF 500 WORDS) IS NOVEMBER 15, 1997. Abstracts may be submitted by e-mail or regular mail. E-mail abstracts: place all identifying information (name, address, telephone number) along with title of paper at the beginning of the message, followed by three blank lines, the title repeated, and the abstract. Regular mail abstracts: 3 copies of abstract with title and no identifying information, with accompanying 3x5 card with paper title and author's name, address, and telephone number or email address. Send abstracts or requests for additional information to: 1998 Conference Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131 USA e-mail: spanish[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu telephone: (505) 277-5907 FAX: (505) 277-3885 Web: http//:www.unm.edu/~spanish ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 12:14:21 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: AmEnglish external sandhi [I have also posted this request to the LINGUIST List; my apologies to those who therefore see it twice.] I am looking for descriptions of external sandhi in American English, especially such pronunciations as are often written "gotcha" (for canonical "got you"). I will post a summary to the list if there is sufficient interest. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 14:07:48 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: FWD: RCPT: Re: New text books --Boundary (ID 1Ya3FMIWnjLvTMCgR7XrtQ) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Re. the Arlington Courseware Web Workshop ad and other such solicitations: a warning response we might want to adopt! --Boundary (ID 1Ya3FMIWnjLvTMCgR7XrtQ) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 04:56:08 EDT From: "Jon Mills"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]a1.cats.ohiou.edu Subject: RCPT: Re: New text books Sender: owner-teach-ling To: TEACH-LING Reply-to: TEACH-LING Message-id: <22638087302[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]castle.luton.ac.uk> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID xAKV6FOhYbWZ/53viek8fA)" Delivery-date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:33:00 EDT Posting-date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:33:15 EDT Importance: normal A1-type: MAIL --Boundary (ID xAKV6FOhYbWZ/53viek8fA) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Confirmation of reading: your message - Date: 13 Oct 97 15:42 To: TEACH-LING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Subject: Re: New text books Was read at 8:56, 14 Oct 97. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jon Mills Faculty of Humanities, University of Luton, 75 Castle Street, Luton, Bedfordshire, LU1 3AJ, UK Tel: +44 (0)1582 489025 Fax: +44 (0)1582 489014 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Unsolicited commercial E-mail to this account is prohibited; see section 76E of the Commonwealth Crimes Act 1914 as amended by the Crimes Legislation Amendment Act No 108 of 1989. Maximum penalty: 10 years in gaol. --Boundary (ID xAKV6FOhYbWZ/53viek8fA) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:33:17 EDT MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Importance: normal A1-type: DOCUMENT RFC-822-headers: Received: from redbud.cats.ohiou.edu by ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #15752) id <01IOSAPDW2FW8X0EFL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ouvaxa.cats.ohiou.edu>; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:31:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: by redbud.cats.ohiou.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA09441; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:30:10 -0400 Received: from qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu by redbud.cats.ohiou.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/03Feb95-1128AM) id AA09368; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 05:30:08 -0400 Received: from jess.luton.ac.uk (jess-nf.luton.ac.uk) by qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu (MX V4.0-1 VAX) with SMTP; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 03:56:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from castle.luton.ac.uk (castle.luton.ac.uk [194.80.208.244]) by jess.luton.ac.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA13748 for ; Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:56:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from CASTLE/SpoolDir by castle.luton.ac.uk (Mercury 1.21); Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Received: from SpoolDir by CASTLE (Mercury 1.21); Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:56:08 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 08:56:08 +0400 From: Jon Mills Subject: RCPT: Re: New text books Sender: owner-teach-ling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu To: TEACH-LING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Errors-to: owner-teach-ling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Warnings-to: <> Reply-to: TEACH-LING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qcvaxa.acc.qc.edu Message-id: <22638087302[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]castle.luton.ac.uk> Organization: University of Luton X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Priority: normal X-Listname: Teaching of Linguistics in College & Graduate School --Boundary (ID xAKV6FOhYbWZ/53viek8fA)-- --Boundary (ID 1Ya3FMIWnjLvTMCgR7XrtQ)-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 15:26:23 -0400 From: Carrie Crockett Subject: pre-nasalized stops I'm new to the list. I'm a graduate student at Georgetown doing a term paper on pre-nasalized stops in white Southern English as a result of African and/or African American influence. So far, I've found very little even in related areas and next to nothing on my particular feature, which can be positive or negative in terms of conducting research. I've noticed this feature in my own speech (I'm a white Southerner) and believe it may have African or AAVE origins. The feature I'm talking about is distinct from nasalized vowels. An example would be something like mboy for boy or ndoor for door especially in emphasized utterances but also as a general rule. I've done waveform analysis of my own speech compared to a Californian's and found that many of my /b/ and /d/'s are not stops at all. If anyone knows anything about this feature in WSE, AAVE, Creoles, or West African languages, could you please let me know? Thanks. Carrie Leigh Crockett Sociolinguistics, Georgetown crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 14 Oct 1997 18:59:59 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: pre-nasalized stops >I'm a graduate student at Georgetown doing a term paper on pre-nasalized >stops in white Southern English as a result of African and/or African >American influence. >I've noticed this feature in my own speech (I'm a white Southerner) and >believe it may have African or AAVE origins. The feature I'm talking >about is distinct from nasalized vowels. An example would be something >like mboy for boy or ndoor for door especially in emphasized utterances >but also as a general rule. I've done waveform analysis of my own speech >compared to a Californian's and found that many of my /b/ and /d/'s are >not stops at all. > >If anyone knows anything about this feature in WSE, AAVE, Creoles, or West >African languages, could you please let me know? Are you sure it's nasalizaion and not just onset of phonation preceding the stop closure? I've seen/heard this pre-voiced-stop phonation in the speech of people whose phonotactics would not have been influenced by African American speech. I can produce what I think you mean, with nasalization extending about half-way through the [o], both with and without pre-stop phonation. When the pre-stop phonation occurs, it is of course nasalized. I associate this nasalization with my South Midland dialect rather than with the presence of a nasal consonant. You have a fascinating topic. Good luck with it. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Oct 1997 to 14 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Oct 1997 to 15 Oct 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 135 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Xhosa (2) 2. Etymology of _Hoosier_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 12:07:46 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Xhosa Larry is short one coarticulation (or 'co-coarticulation') possibility with the clicks. They may be plain (x,c,q), or 'voiced' (or 'glottalized' as some Ngunists [Nguni being the name of the southeastern Bantu sub-group to which isiXhosa belongs] prefer to say - gx, gc, gq), or nasalized (nx, nc, nq), or aspirated (xh, ch, qh), as Larry points out, but they may also be 'Naso-glottalized' - ngx, ngc, ngq, yielding a fifteen-way rather than telve way set of phonemic distinctions. Bob Herbert has a very interesting article on the sociocultural environment which has to do with the borrowing of clicks into Nguni from the Khoisan languages (related to a tabu concerning fermale uses of male names); publication details escape me at the moment, but I think the title was 'The sociohistory of clicks in Southern Bantu' and I'm pretty sure it appeared in Anthropological Linguistics. Dennis >>Sorry to bother dialecticians with this, but I have no other immediate >>source. Do any of you know if (and how long) Xnghossa (South african >>"click" language that I may have misspelled) has a writing system of the >>language. how are the clicks "written"? thanks. > >The language in question is Xhosa (more formally, isiXhosa), and the X there >is the representation of one of the three positions in which clicks occur, >the lateral one. Besides the laterals, there are retroflex or palatal (or >"domal") clicks, represented as Q, and dental/alveolar clicks, represented as >C. Any of these can be "voiced" (the voicing is phonetically realized by its >effect on the adjacent vowel tone; in fact I think a voiced click per se is >physically impossible), or nasalized (represented with an N before the click >letter), or aspirated (represented with an H after the click letter, as in the >name of the language). Sister languages in the southern Bantu group that have >clicks are Zulu and Ndebele. The true "click languages", though, are from an >unrelated family, Khoisan (the one spoken in the movie "The Gods Must Be Crazy" >which may or may not help), e.g. (in the Western naming tradition) Bushman and >Hottentot. It is these languages from which the southern Bantu ones borrowed >their clicks, and in the Khoisan languages I understand they're much more >prevalent. (Sorry I can't answer your question about how long Xhosa has been >written.) >--Larry Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 13:11:03 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ >Mitford Mathews cracked this etymological nut on page 830 of his >_Dictionary of Americanisms_, wherein he indicates its most probable >source as _hoozer, "very large" in the dialect of Cumberland, northern >England. > >DARE attests the term quite widely and early outside Indiana. Indeed, >until the mid-20th century, mountaineers in Tennessee and North Carolina >were called _hoosiers_. How the term has come to be associated with >Indianans is a more recent but intriguing story. > >Michael Montgomery >Dept of English >Univ of South Carolina >Columbia SC 29208 My favorite explanation appeares in Schele de Vere's _Americanisms_. He reports that "Hoosier" came about because of the way people there (Indiana) said "Who's here?" Fritz Juengling Dept of Foreign Languages St Cloud State University Minnesota Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 18:44:22 -0400 From: Jack Chambers Subject: Re: Xhosa There's another really good article on clicks by Robert K. Herbert besides the one that Dennis remembers. It's called "The sociohistory of clicks in Southern Bantu," and it's a chapter in a book called Language and Social History: Studies in South African Sociolinguistics, ed. Rajend Mesthrie (Cape Town: David Phillip). -- Jack Chambers Department of Linguistics University of Toronto Toronto, ON M5S 3H1 (416) 978-1764 FAX (416) 971-2688 chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]chass.utoronto.ca homepage: http://www.chass.utoronto.ca:8080/~chambers/chambers.html ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Oct 1997 to 15 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Oct 1997 to 16 Oct 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 466 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ask your help 2. Etymology of _Hoosier_ (5) 3. Bargee 4. Folk-Etymology (Was Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_) 5. Query: ADS session in Chicago (2) 6. Warning! and a Request (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 14:52:00 +0900 From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCMixLXCEhSU05PhsoQg==?= Subject: Ask your help I am a new subscriber to your system. I am Japanese translator. I want to know the meaning of a word. I will write down the context of the book (The Railway Children:by the British author E.Nesbit: 1906) "You mustn't take no notice of my Bill,( a bargee)" said the woman; "'is bark's worse'n 'is bite. Some of the kids down Farley way is fair terrors. It was them put 'is back up calling out about who ate the puppy pie under Marlow bridge." -----------------"----somehow, and I don't know the why nor the wherefore of it, them words is p'ison to a barge-master. Don't you take no notice. ----" * Please help me why the bargee was angry hearing the kid's words. I do not know what is Puppy Pie. Is it something insulting the bargee? This book is British and in 1906, but you may know it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 06:55:26 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ Well, while we're on favorites for folk etymologies of 'Hoosier,' how about this one? The hard-drinkin', quick-to-fight, rough-and-ready backwoodsmen of early Indiana apparently had a thing or to to teach Mike Tyson since biting off body parts was such a common accompaniment to fisticuffs that after a fight one might look around on the floor and say 'Whose ear'? Why is folk etymology so much more rewarding than the truth? Dennis >>Mitford Mathews cracked this etymological nut on page 830 of his >>_Dictionary of Americanisms_, wherein he indicates its most probable >>source as _hoozer, "very large" in the dialect of Cumberland, northern >>England. >> >>DARE attests the term quite widely and early outside Indiana. Indeed, >>until the mid-20th century, mountaineers in Tennessee and North Carolina >>were called _hoosiers_. How the term has come to be associated with >>Indianans is a more recent but intriguing story. >> >>Michael Montgomery >>Dept of English >>Univ of South Carolina >>Columbia SC 29208 > >My favorite explanation appeares in Schele de Vere's _Americanisms_. He >reports that "Hoosier" came about because of the way people there >(Indiana) said "Who's here?" > >Fritz Juengling >Dept of Foreign Languages >St Cloud State University >Minnesota > >Fritz Juengling >Foreign Languages and Literature Department >St. Cloud State University Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:16:23 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ At 06:55 AM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >Why is folk etymology so much more rewarding than the truth? > >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu > Maybe Horne Tooke is a vampire, is undead, and has been out biting others. Bram Stoker, call your office. Or maybe the answer is that "man is an etymologizing animal" (Abram Smythe Palmer, _Folk-Etymology_, 1882). A lot of folk etymologies become quite influential. Perhaps f-e is okay as long as people don't think it's anything but an ex post facto construct -- but they often think f-e is the real reason for the word's origin I think. Poll people, and I bet you'll find 100 who know "who's here?" led to "hoosier" for every 1 who knows the published reseached history as posted on this list last week. Skeat waxed vehement about the need to stamp out f-e over a century ago. For example: "If the question were one of chemistry, botany, or any form of science, the appeal would lie to the facts; and we should be amazed if any one who asserted that the chief constituents of water are oxygen and nitrogen were to take offence at contradiction. The whole matter lies in a nutshell; if etymology is to be scientific, the appeal lies to the facts; and the facts, in this case, are accurate quotations, with exact references, from all available authors." (_A Student's Pastime_, 1895, p. lxxv) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 08:49:15 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Bargee At 02:52 PM 10/16/97 +0900, you wrote: >I am a new subscriber to your system. I am Japanese translator. >I want to know the meaning of a word. I will write down the >context of the book (The Railway >Children:by the British author E.Nesbit: 1906) > > "You mustn't take no notice of my Bill (a bargee)" Bargee = bargeman, person who pilots or works on a river- or canal-barge (OED). If you do a good deal of translating from early 20th cent. UK English, you may want to keep in mind, for occasional use, Wright's multi-vol. _English Dialect Dictionary_, published in the 1890s and the first years of the then-new century. This listserv is for US English, though. Does anyone know of a listserv for UK English and dialect? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:22:15 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ Greg, What is it that makes what people believe not a fact? What makes what people believe about language a set of facts not interesting to linguists? Finally, if you want to stamp some out (and I agree that there are some viscious folk beliefs about language, or, to be more precise, about language users), wouldn't you want to know the details, sources, strength, provenience, and so on of those beliefs before you went a-stompin'? There is also some caution to be taken in lessons learned from medicine and other areas (which we all pray are dominated by hard science) where folk facts have tuned out to be right on. Dennis >At 06:55 AM 10/16/97 -0400, you wrote: >>Why is folk etymology so much more rewarding than the truth? >> >>Dennis R. Preston >>Department of Linguistics and Languages >>Michigan State University >>preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu >> > >Maybe Horne Tooke is a vampire, is undead, and has been out biting others. >Bram Stoker, call your office. Or maybe the answer is that "man is an >etymologizing animal" (Abram Smythe Palmer, _Folk-Etymology_, 1882). A lot >of folk etymologies become quite influential. Perhaps f-e is okay as long as >people don't think it's anything but an ex post facto construct -- but they >often think f-e is the real reason for the word's origin I think. Poll >people, and I bet you'll find 100 who know "who's here?" led to "hoosier" >for every 1 who knows the published reseached history as posted on this list >last week. > >Skeat waxed vehement about the need to stamp out f-e over a century ago. For >example: > >"If the question were one of chemistry, botany, or any form of science, the >appeal would lie to the facts; and we should be amazed if any one who >asserted that the chief constituents of water are oxygen and nitrogen were >to take offence at contradiction. The whole matter lies in a nutshell; if >etymology is to be scientific, the appeal lies to the facts; and the facts, >in this case, are accurate quotations, with exact references, from all >available authors." (_A Student's Pastime_, 1895, p. lxxv) > >Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 09:24:27 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ I've been enjoying the Dennis/Greg debate about the meaning of folk etymology (and I appreciate Greg's references to the 19th century literature), but I think there are a couple of issues to sort out. It's certainly important to recognize the motivation that leads speaker/hearers to seek out motivation, i.e. to render opaque formations transparent even when the transparency has to be invented, as in that wonderful catalogue of mondegreens/pullet surprises we kick around every couple of years here (from the four-stair furnaces to the sick-as-hell anemia, from Prince Charles's power-mower to CCR's bathroom on the right). All these examples, whether disingenuous (remember the monokini?) or ...um, "bonified", reveal a lot about our linguistic capacity--every man and woman and especially child their own derivational morphologist, and productivity is its own reward. But at some level what we're doing is, in effect, pseudo-science; there's no more reason to expect the "folk" to be right about "fuck" REALLY being an acronym for "for unlawful carnal knowledge" or "fornication under consent of the king" or "hoosier" REALLY being "whose ear" than to try to find that Neiman-Marcus in the sky where they really do charge $250 for a chocolate chip recipe. These are more in the line of the isn't-it-pretty-to-think-so etymologies than are the actual on-line mishearings that affect linguistic form and that may in some cases turn out to reflect the actual history a la folk medicine. (For an example of the latter, I've proposed here on another occasion that today's spittin' image was yesterday's (dial.) spitten image rather than the standardly reconstructed spit and image.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 10:32:08 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Folk-Etymology (Was Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_) At 09:22 AM 10/16/97 ("Dennis R. Preston" wrote: >What is it that makes what people believe not a fact? It works for them, and/or it's the best they can figure out, or the best they have heard. I'm not saying folk-etymology shouldn't exist. (I'm not sitting at the edge of the sea telling the tide not to come in.) It will always exist to some extent. What I am saying is it wouldn't hurt to maintain a distinction between (1) the best available information on what really happened in cultural and semantic history, and (2) fanciful but culturally and personally resonant ideas about word-origins. >What makes what >people believe about language a set of facts not interesting to linguists? They are, absolutely. In fact, not an inconsiderable component of what exists in present language is, of course, the result of the effects of past folk-etymolgies or word-confusions. >Finally, if you want to stamp some out I was quoting Skeat, and arguing that if people want to think f-e's are *really true*, they certainly have hold of (2) but are missing (1) -- which is maybe fine in most cases, but probably not in the case of linguists or lexicographers. >(and I agree that there are some >viscious folk beliefs about language, or, to be more precise, about >language users), wouldn't you want to know the details, sources, strength, >provenience, and so on of those beliefs before you went a-stompin'? > By all means. What's your theory as to why people want to think "hoosier" comes from "who's here?"? Does it have something to do with popular ideas about pioneer life (people calling out to each other in the woods etc.)? The distinction between (1) and (2) above means you observe and analyze even etymologies that are well-known to be inaccurate historically, but you don't confuse (1) and (2). >There is also some caution to be taken in lessons learned from medicine and >other areas (which we all pray are dominated by hard science) where folk >facts have tuned out to be right on. > There are two things to be analyzed: what actually happened historically in terms of phonetic and semantic evolution (which is sometimes clear and sometimes not so clear), and what people think happened though it didn't (I'm talking here only of cases where a particular etymology is **demonstrably impossible** given the available historical record). When an analyst is descriptivist about the *first* thing, s/he is trying to get as close as possible to "wie es eigentlich gewesen," what really happened in language-history. When an analyst is descriptivist about the *second* thing, s/he is chronicling people's always imperfect imformation-levels, and the effects that those information-levels have on the culture and the language -- which is not the same as saying they are historically accurate, just that in being believed by people they have effects that also have to be taken account of in analyzing the actual history of language. Folk-etymologies are linguistic facts to be studied *after* they start to become current, but not facts at all if you're looking at the actual *earlier* development of the word (and the latter is what folk-etymologies wrongly purport to explain). When I was at the Univ. of Michigan (near your stomping ground) at the end of the 1970s, everyone liked to say that "history" came from "his story," revealing the patriarchal background of the culture. Of course, that has nothing to do with the word's Greek origin, so it will never be (to follow your analogy above) a "folk remedy" that turns out in the end to be true after all in explaining the word's origin. But the fact that people really thought that does tell you what was on their minds and on the collective culture's mind, i.e., the progress of modern feminism during the 1970s (when I heard this etymology used a lot). And the fact that the etymology is historically false does not falsify the insight that generated it: the historical dominance of men in political and economic affairs, etc. The accurate insight is what lured people into thinking the false etymology made sense. But the fact that the insight was accurate doesn't make the etymology accurate. I work on Joyce's _Finnegans Wake_. Some of the puns are etymolgically driven and thus reflect connections and patterns that are part of people's long-term conceptual and cultural history as reflected in linguistic history; they are "etymological" puns, so to speak. Other _FW_ paronomasia comes from linkages of sound and sense that are not etymologically-based, but are evocative of genuine patterns in reality or culture. So both scientific etymology and other kinds of language-connections are useful. But they are not the same thing. And for historical linguists and etymologists the difference is their profession; a fair amount of what is posted on this list is the attempt to determine actual origins or etymologies, not what people might wrongly think the origins and etymologies are. If folk-etymology is just as likely to be historically valid as more "scientific" (i.e., empirically-based) etymology, Murray and Skeat and all subsequent lexicographers could have saved themselves many decades of effort by simply reprinting all the clever (the cleverer and more entertaining the better!) but unhistorical folk-etymologies seen in Horne Tooke or in any issue of Note & Queries in the mid 19th century, rather than looking into how words actually originated and developed as best that can be determined at any point in time. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:09:38 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin Subject: Query: ADS session in Chicago Would somebody be so kind as to post or send me the program for the ADS session in Chicago on Friday, November 7? Many thanks. Maggie Ronkin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Maggie Ronkin / Georgetown University / ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.ed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 18:56:40 -0500 From: Susan-Marie Harrington Subject: Re: Query: ADS session in Chicago 12:30-2:00, in the Washington Room at the Ramada Congress Hotel: "Where is the Midwestern Dialect Spoken?" by Donald M. Oance, Univ. of Missouri/Columbia "Factors Influencing the Adoption of Language Change," by Matthew Gordon, Purdue University/Calumet "Linguistic Individuation and Confomaity Among Suburban Chicago Adolescents," by Lisa Ann Lane, University of Michigan/Ann Arbor, and David Durian, Northern Illinois University Discussant: Beth Lee Simon, Indiana University-Purdue University, Fort Wayne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 20:35:38 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS Subject: Warning! and a Request Once again I have asked members of my language & society class to join our discussion group. I have asked them first to observe the discussion on the list. But I have also required as a class assignment that they either respond to a query or post a query about dialect and language variation. Some of their observations may be naive, simple-minded, unfounded, or even wrong. I ask that you bear with them in your replying. If things get out of hand with some, I will address that issue separately. To those who have immediate concerns, I suggest that inviting students to join our discussions is crucial to the future health of our discipline. Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:12:06 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Warning! and a Request No problem, Terry--in fact, they may be no more "naive, simple-minded, unfounded, or even wrong" than many of the queries we post! It's actually a great idea for a class project; I'll try it this winter. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 1997 21:22:43 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > There is also some caution to be taken in lessons learned from medicine and > other areas (which we all pray are dominated by hard science) where folk > facts have tuned out to be right on. I would be curious to learn of examples of folk-etymologies that have turned out to be "right on." I have long believed that the more colorful an etymological story is, the less likely it is to have anything to do with the truth. If one automatically dismissed all colorful etymological stories as hogwash, one would rarely be in error. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Oct 1997 to 16 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Oct 1997 to 17 Oct 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 279 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Naive queries? 2. Ask your help 3. Warning! and a Request 4. Etymology of _Hoosier_ 5. thank you . . . thank you (2) 6. 7. PUPPY PIE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 12:01:30 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Naive queries? First of all, I think Terry's idea of letting the students on the list is great for all sorts of reasons. Secondly, I have a "naive" question myself. Lately, I've come across the term "in future" in American language. It was in a recent novel I'm reading by an American author. A few days ago, some lawyer or another concerned with the Federal campaigning case said something about being concerned with an item in future. When I first came to Scotland, "in future" sounded odd to me, but I took it to be a dialect syntactic variation. As a General American speaker, I would have never said "in future", rather "in the future". "We will be allowing undergraduates on the list in (the) future", for example. The is obligatory for me. Is this something that's changing in American speech, or did I miss that day in school? Cheers! Aaron ___________________________________________________________________________ Aaron E. Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Ph.D. Candidate http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron The University of Edinburgh +44 (0)131 650-3485 Departments of Linguistics and fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 English Language ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:04:06 -0700 From: Johanna Wood Subject: Re: Ask your help My reading of this is, the children are implying that Bill catches puppies and makes them into a tasty dish (pie) which he consumes in secret (under the bridge). He is angry because the accusations make him less than human, since eating cute little pets is not approved in this society. Now, if he was eating cow pie that would be a completely different matter. . . . Johanna. Johanna L. Wood, Department of English, Arizona State University, Tempe, AZ 85287-0302 On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCMixLXCEhSU05PhsoQg==?= wrote: > I am a new subscriber to your system. I am Japanese translator. > I want to know the meaning of a word. I will write down the > context of the book (The Railway > Children:by the British author E.Nesbit: 1906) > > "You mustn't take no notice of my Bill,( a bargee)" > said the woman; "'is bark's worse'n 'is bite. Some of the kids > down Farley way is fair terrors. It was them put 'is back up > calling out about who ate the puppy pie under Marlow bridge." > -----------------"----somehow, and I don't know the why nor the > wherefore of it, them words is p'ison to a barge-master. Don't > you take no notice. ----" > > > * Please help me why the bargee was angry hearing the kid's > words. I do not know what is Puppy Pie. Is it something > insulting the bargee? This book is British and in 1906, but you > may know it. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 08:21:55 -0700 From: Peter Richardson Subject: Re: Warning! and a Request Re: students lurking about, observing pixels and spying on our electrons. Good for you, good for them. My students in "Language Matters" have been privy to these discussions as well, and many have told me that the list is both entertaining and informative, a nice complement to the ongoing battery of language-awareness exercises we do in class. I haven't required that they get involved, but would be interested to hear whether this has been a good assignment. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:46:58 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ >Well, while we're on favorites for folk etymologies of 'Hoosier,' how about >this one? > >The hard-drinkin', quick-to-fight, rough-and-ready backwoodsmen of early >Indiana apparently had a thing or to to teach Mike Tyson since biting off >body parts was such a common accompaniment to fisticuffs that after a fight >one might look around on the floor and say 'Whose ear'? This is now my new 'favorite' etymology for hoosier. > >Why is folk etymology so much more rewarding than the truth? I don't think 'rewarding' is the right word. How about 'entertaining'? (I think we are understanding 'folk etymologies' as being incorrect--as least for this discussion.) When I suggested the 'Who's here' explanation, I didn't expect that anyone would believe it. Of course I don't believe it--any more than the 'whose ear' explanation. These explanantions are so ludicrous that they are funny- they are nothing more than jokes (Does anyone know the FE of 'Savannah' GA?). However, they do serve several important purposes besides fun. First, they give insight into how peple think and what they think about language. Second, they keep us on our toes. Otherwise, we might believe what we see in print without questioning it. Case in point--the Cumberland explanation as found in the DA. I don't find this etymology convincing either (yet). For Cumberland 'hoozer' to be the source of 'hoosier', several things must be shown. First, how do you get from [z] to [zh]? Of course, the phonetic distance from [z] to [zh] is almost nothing. But something should be said about that. There is no evidence in the EDD for [zh];The _SED: the Dictionary and Grammar_ also offers no help. So, it seems that the pronunciation with [zh] must have arisen in the US. But under what influence? When? Where? Second, how did an obscure Cumberland word become the name of people in a state in the US? Where there a lot of Cumberlanders in Indiana? If not, how did it get to Indiana? Third, how did a word for 'large' come to describe an Indianan? Are folks from Indiana exceptionally large? To summarize, with every etymology, one must explain both the phonetic and semantic changes. Also, when giving an etymology in a colonial dialect, one must also explain the word's course of travel. Fritz Juengling Dept of Foreign Languages St. Cloud State University St. Cloud, Minnesota >>>Mitford Mathews cracked this etymological nut on page 830 of his >>>_Dictionary of Americanisms_, wherein he indicates its most probable >>>source as _hoozer, "very large" in the dialect of Cumberland, northern >>>England. >>> >>>DARE attests the term quite widely and early outside Indiana. Indeed, >>>until the mid-20th century, mountaineers in Tennessee and North Carolina >>>were called _hoosiers_. How the term has come to be associated with >>>Indianans is a more recent but intriguing story. >>> >>>Michael Montgomery >>>Dept of English >>>Univ of South Carolina >>>Columbia SC 29208 >> >>My favorite explanation appeares in Schele de Vere's _Americanisms_. He >>reports that "Hoosier" came about because of the way people there >>(Indiana) said "Who's here?" >> >>Fritz Juengling >>Dept of Foreign Languages >>St Cloud State University >>Minnesota >> >>Fritz Juengling >>Foreign Languages and Literature Department >>St. Cloud State University > >Dennis R. Preston >Department of Linguistics and Languages >Michigan State University >East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA >preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu >Office: (517)353-0740 >Fax: (517)432-2736 Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 13:56:30 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald Subject: thank you . . . thank you The recent query about "in future" vs. "in the future" prompted me to ask this. When I listen to the radio, I'm often struck by the fact that when a host of, say, a talk show, says to his or her guest, "thank you for being with us," the guest replies "thank you" rather than "you're welcome." It's my (unsubstantiated) impression that this replacement is becoming more common, and was considerably less common when I was growing up (I'm 49). Has anyone else noticed this? Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 14:12:40 EDT From: Michael Montgomery Subject: Dennis: Your "whose ear?" etymology sounds believable to me, but for Indianans to indulge in ear-shearing is tame stuff compared to their neighbors to the east, where combatants gouged eyes until the last was left standing with his intact. All the rest would be on the ground moaning "Oh! (my) eye, oh!" Or is this just a tale made up in Indiana? Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 17 Oct 1997 11:27:28 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you At some point during my teens (in the late '50s), I got the idea that it was impolite to say, "You're welcome," which up to that time I had always said without thinking, and that one should always thank the person back instead, to give the impression that, "Oh, the obligation is all mine," or something. I wasn't aware at the time that everybody else had gotten this idea, but it seems to me, too, that I rarely hear "You're welcome" anymore. I'm not sure whether this is because others have taken to saying, "Thank you (back)!" or whether it's because more informal replies have taken over--such as "Sure!", "You bet!" (mainly in the West, I think), and (in recent years) "No problem!" Peter McGraw On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Larry Rosenwald wrote: > The recent query about "in future" vs. "in the future" prompted > me to ask this. When I listen to the radio, I'm often struck by the > fact that when a host of, say, a talk show, says to his or her guest, > "thank you for being with us," the guest replies "thank you" rather > than "you're welcome." It's my (unsubstantiated) impression that this > replacement is becoming more common, and was considerably less common > when I was growing up (I'm 49). Has anyone else noticed this? > Best, Larry Rosenwald > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 09:29:00 +0900 From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCMixLXCEhSU05PhsoQg==?= Subject: PUPPY PIE I received so far 2 kind answers to my asking help mail. Thank you Mr.Greg.Downing, for your recommending the dictionaries. I will look for them. Usually I am doing the books by the present authors such as American Author Katherine Paterson (do you know her?)I can ask them directly, but this time! And Ms.Johanna Wood's comment made me happy, because my friend who had recommended LISTSERVE said her husband gave the same comment as yours. He said, bargees are suspicious for the dog kidnapping so that he was angry hearing the kids saying about puppy pie. I am really happy to get the answer from LISTSERVE because this is my first experience to join in such computer discussion, from Japan. Please forgime my poor English, especially you are the kind of scholars strict about 'the' etc. Hamae Okamoto ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Oct 1997 to 17 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Oct 1997 to 18 Oct 1997 There is one message totalling 95 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Language & Law, Sociolinguistic Calls ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 10:05:08 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Language & Law, Sociolinguistic Calls ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 15 Oct 1997 14:15:00 +0100 (BST) From: "Max.Travers" To: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu Subject: Research Committee on Sociolinguistics TO: Bethany Dumas Department of English, University of Tennessee. Dear Bethany, I got your address from ethno/CA news on the world wide web. I am organising a session on "Language and Law" in the World Congress of Sociology, to be held in Montreal next July. I am interested in including papers from a range of traditions including conversation analysis and ethnomethodology, the ethnography of communication, critical discourse analysis and mainstream sociolinguistics. If you know of anyone who might be interested in giving a paper, could you ask them to send me abstracts by 31st November? I have attached a general call for papers for the sociolinguistics sessions which might also be of interest. Do you know of any lists we could use to publicise these to people with sociolinguistic interests? Thanks for your help. Yours, Max Travers CALL FOR PAPERS SOCIOLINGUISTICS SESSIONS - RC25 XIV WORLD CONGRESS OF SOCIOLOGY JULY 26-AUGUST 1, 1998 MONTREAL, CANADA The Research Committee on Sociolinguistics will have 15 2-hour sessions at the XIV WORLD CONGRESS OF SOCIOLOGY, sponsored by the International Sociological Association, from July 26-August 1, 1998, in Montreal, Canada. In addition to papers from across the sociolinguistic spectrum, the ISA special focus is on the past, present, and future state of the discipline. A special session of RC25 will be devoted to an overview of sociolinguistics: a retrospective, state of the art, and future directions. DEADLINE November 31 Abstracts of 200-250 words are encouraged now and should be sent by Email to the address below. A hard copy should follow. The program committee will reply within a short time. In Montreal, RC25 will have a reception/business meeting in one of the conference hotels. Materials on the program, hotels, registration fees and so on will be available soon and mailed to those interested. Any topic in sociolinguistics is appropriate. Topics which have already been submitted include sociolinguistics and: Codeswitching Communicating across generations Cultural and language diffusion Ethnocultural factors Gender-related issues Health-care issues Language and Law Language policy Minority languages Personal identity Theoretical constructions Various interactional situations Work-related issues and others Each of the 15 2-hour session will have 6-8 papers. Ordinarily the length will be 15-20 minutes. Email, FAX, or mail abstracts, inquiries and suggestions to: Bates L. Hoffer, 1st VP, RC25/ Institute for Cross-Cultural Research/ Trinity University #47/ 715 Stadium Drive/ San Antonio TX 78212-7200 USA/ Tel: (210) > 736-7369 Fax: (210) 736-7578/ Email: ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Oct 1997 to 18 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Oct 1997 to 19 Oct 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 282 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Etymology of _Hoosier_ (2) 2. Charles Carson's email address 3. mb..., nd..., ngg... 4. Japanese Teens' Use of US English 5. Warning! and a Request 6. thank you . . . thank you (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:23:25 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ Fred, Gosh, there are so many examples of the process of folk-etymology becoming the 'truth' that I am surprised to hear a request for one. How about a really old one: For I would guess nearly all speakers of English (with the exception of those who have professional training in the history of the language), the first morpheme in the compound 'hangnail' is the morpheme 'hang.' That is the current, psycholinguistic, morphological truth. (It is not the historical truth, of course; the 'hang' part of 'hangnail' is related to 'anxiety' or modern German 'Angst' and meant 'hurt-nail,' but since the damn things also 'hang' there off your nail, the folk etymology makes so much sense that it has supplied the current morphological truth.) If Fred means that dismissing all such stories would be a fairly safe bet in determining the historical fact, I would (with a few hedges) probably agree; if he means to dismiss folk etymology as a part of the historical process of language change (in which the misunderstandings of one era become the psycholinguistic facts of the next), that would be a serious error. In fact, it would be no more sophisticated than one's being told that a word does not 'have' a certain sense if it cannot be found in a dictionary, or, more aptly parallel to this discussion, that a word 'really' means something because its historical meaning is thus and so. We all know why words 'really' mean something (and why constructions, pronunciations, etc... exist). Dennis >On Thu, 16 Oct 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> There is also some caution to be taken in lessons learned from medicine and >> other areas (which we all pray are dominated by hard science) where folk >> facts have tuned out to be right on. > >I would be curious to learn of examples of folk-etymologies that have >turned out to be "right on." I have long believed that the more colorful >an etymological story is, the less likely it is to have anything to do >with the truth. If one automatically dismissed all colorful etymological >stories as hogwash, one would rarely be in error. > > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) > Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD > and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES > Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 > e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 10:49:54 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro Subject: Re: Etymology of _Hoosier_ Dennis, Thanks for your interesting message. My comments referred to historical truth rather than "psycholinguistic, morphological" truth. I fear that, as we move into the Age of the Internet, and fewer and fewer people have any understanding of the notion of matters of history and etymology being provable by documented primary sources, the historical truths of etymology will become more and more buried beneath the mounds of popular conjecture. My sister-in-law read in a computer text that the term _bug_ 'hardware or software defect' originated because Grace Murray Hopper found a moth in an early computer. No amount of my explaining that Thomas Edison used essentially the same term in the 1800s could shake her conviction that this story was correct. Current trends in the preservation (i.e., non-preservation) and dissemination of information will only increase the difficulty of such discussions. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:09:01 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Charles Carson's email address Would someone send me Charles Carson's email address, or the address of whoever is now publications shepherd for American Speech. The address I have is carson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu but I've had no reply. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 19:13:25 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: mb..., nd..., ngg... I was hoping that the posting of a graduate student at Georgetown regarding [mboi] 'boy' etc. would yield more fruit than the puny little peach that I threw in. I've been thinking more about the phenomenon, even playing around with pronunciations. I pointed out that pre-phonation in words like 'boat' or 'bone' would be a phonetically nasal, though I didn't say it quite that way. In order for the pre-phonation to occur with much strength, the velic must be open (oral cavity is closed for [b]) to allow a pressure differential across the vocal folds that would enable phonation. If the velic doesn't close during the closure for [b], stopness is compromised -- as the student said, "[M]any of my /b/ and /d/'s are not stops at all." She's quite right (I no longer have her name in my files but think I remember that the querier was female). In the case of 'boat' the velic may not close until articulation of the [o] is under way, and in 'bone' nasal resonance may accompany the entire word. Similar observations may be made regarding 'dote' and 'goat'. Apparently the querier felt that the consonant retained a sufficient amount of the features of a voiced-stop gesture that kept her from speculating that the stop had "become" a nasal. When I play around with these pronunciations, the stop does not "turn into" a nasal. I have noticed the phenomenon, but never associated it with regional or ethnic lects. I doubt that it is of Afro-Caribbean origin, as she speculated -- "If anyone knows anything about this feature in WSE, AAVE, Creoles, or West African languages,..." It doesn't seem to me to be the same (or even similar) phonomenon as we see/hear in Swahili 'ndizi' "banana" or Kikongo 'nzadi' (old name of the Congo River). Such an origin would very likely have had to originate in the retention or "misunderstanding" of the prefixes represented by these unEnglish N+voiced-obstruent clusters. Any other observations? This was a question about dialect. We've heard complaints about postings that aren't about dialect. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 17:23:49 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Japanese Teens' Use of US English A four-column article on Japanese teenagers' use of terms adapted from US English as part of a secret "in" language (ko-gyaru-go = high-school-gal-talk) appears on page 3 of the main section of today's Sunday New York Times. Or, you can see it at the following URL: http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/world/japan-english.html If I'm recalling correctly, the site will make you register before giving you access to the page, but it's free (for now anyway -- and I have no financial interest in the NYTimes, I should maybe add). Since the URL has "yr/mo/day" in it, I imagine the URL may change to some kind of archive address starting as soon as Monday the 20th. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:42:37 -0400 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: Warning! and a Request This goes out to Peter Richardson: Making this list a class assignment has been a highly enjoyable experience for me. I truly feel that this has been my most interesting assignment ever. I recommend that all professors ask their students to get involved. Melissa S. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 21:47:03 -0400 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Peter McGraw wrote: > At some point during my teens (in the late '50s), I got the idea that it > was impolite to say, "You're welcome," which up to that time I had always > said without thinking, and that one should always thank the person back > instead, to give the impression that, "Oh, the obligation is all mine," or > something. I wasn't aware at the time that everybody else had gotten this > idea, but it seems to me, too, that I rarely hear "You're welcome" > anymore. I'm not sure whether this is because others have taken to saying, > "Thank you (back)!" or whether it's because more informal replies have > taken over--such as "Sure!", "You bet!" (mainly in the West, I think), and > (in recent years) "No problem!" > > Peter McGraw > > > On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Larry Rosenwald wrote: > > > The recent query about "in future" vs. "in the future" prompted > > me to ask this. When I listen to the radio, I'm often struck by the > > fact that when a host of, say, a talk show, says to his or her guest, > > "thank you for being with us," the guest replies "thank you" rather > > than "you're welcome." It's my (unsubstantiated) impression that this > > replacement is becoming more common, and was considerably less common > > when I was growing up (I'm 49). Has anyone else noticed this? > > Best, Larry Rosenwald > > > Peter, "You're welcome" is a rather meaningless saying. It has been replaced with "No problem", and "Don't mention it". This tells the person that said "Thank you" that you were more than happy to lend a hand and that recognition is not necessary. Melissa S. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Oct 1997 22:08:18 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Before this gets thread gets too old, my ante: I've very much noticed this "mutual thank-you" formula among 20-somethings and 30-somethings on the east coast of the US around NYC. I've noticed myself doing it a lot. I have a feeling that the cultural and resultant sociolinguistic change is maybe driven by US culture's increasing concern with egalitarianism or an appearance of it. "Thank you" means "You did me a favor" and "You're welcome" means "I did, but I was glad to." That feels suspiciously unequal to people (granter of a favor, and receiver of a favor). So they instead construe the situation where thanks are being offered as one where both sides are giving and/or both getting. In a store, the purchaser and seller will both say "thank you" since both have gotten something from the other party. In the old way of doing thank-you's and you're-welcome's, custom or convention detemined which side was getting the favor and therefore was supposed to say "thank you." As those kinds of behavioral conventions weakened over the last 30 years, people either had to hope they and the people they were interacting with would have the same self-determined sense of who was to say thanks and who was to say you're welcome (which maybe half the time would not coincide naturally), or else (and this is what they in fact did) work out a formula where both sides said the same thing, so it doesn't matter which person sees which as doing or getting the favor. Both are saying "you did me a favor." The seller for example was done a favor in being chosen by the customer, and customer was done a favor by the seller who stocked what the customer needed. Thanks. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Oct 1997 to 19 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Oct 1997 to 20 Oct 1997 There are 15 messages totalling 406 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mb..., nd..., ngg... -Reply (2) 2. thank you . . . thank you (5) 3. 4. whole nuther ballgame (4) 5. Charles Carson's email address (2) 6. Thank You ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:00:30 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke Subject: mb..., nd..., ngg... -Reply I've observed a different sort of prenasalization in some speaker of MUSE, but not the one you've pointed out. What I've observed is the spreading of nasality from a nasalized syllable back across a voiceless stop, as in "ompen" for "open." This doesn't help with your problem, unfortunately. Herb Stahlke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 13:09:20 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: > > Before this gets thread gets too old, my ante: > > I've very much noticed this "mutual thank-you" formula among 20-somethings > and 30-somethings on the east coast of the US around NYC. I've noticed > myself doing it a lot. I have a feeling that the cultural and resultant > sociolinguistic change is maybe driven by US culture's increasing concern > with egalitarianism or an appearance of it. "Thank you" means "You did me a > favor" and "You're welcome" means "I did, but I was glad to." That feels > suspiciously unequal to people (granter of a favor, and receiver of just a side note-- when a certain american sociolinguist came to visit the university of the witwatersrand, he noted that "the response to 'thank you' seems to be 'thank you'" in south africa--he'd say 'thank you' to a cashier, then they'd say 'thank you'. after being there a while i realized that that was a misapprehension of the problem. (not that i think greg's assessment of american thankyou-thankyou is wrong, i think that's right.) but, what was happening in us/sa encounters was that both participants had different ideas about what should get thanks. shopkeepers there would always thank me when i got out my money. i found that a little crass, but i'm sure they'd find it crass (or illogical) for american clerks to thank the customer upon giving them the paid-for merchandise. so, they'd say thank you for the money, i'd say thank you to them for taking it (not feeling that 'you're welcome' was the right thing to say) and a half dozen other thank you's would be said over the course of the un-smooth conversation. i agree that 'you're welcome' is dying out a bit--seems formal and it does not mitigate the assumption that the thankee has been imposed upon in some way. but i far prefer it to the s.a./uk 'it's a pleasure', which is said no matter how unpleasant the activity actually was. "thanks for not suing me for crashing your car" "it's a pleasure"... "thanks for your patience as i, the phlebotomist, miss your vein for the fortieth time" "it's a pleasure", "thanks for mucking the pigeon droppings out of the stairwell" "it's a pleasure"... just random thoughts strung together in order to avoid grading... lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:36:24 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you On Sun, 19 Oct 1997, MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: > Peter, > > "You're welcome" is a rather meaningless saying. It has been replaced > with "No problem", and "Don't mention it". This tells the person that > said "Thank you" that you were more than happy to lend a hand and that > recognition is not necessary. > > Melissa S. Smith > I doubt you can lump "No problem!" together with "Don't mention it!" as "replacements" for "You're welcome," since "Don't mention it" is at least as old as "You're welcome," if not older, while "No problem" is a relatively recent usage. And I guess I don't see why "You're welcome" is any more meaningless than any other phrase which gets reduced to a formula with constant use. FWIW, "No problem" has always irked me a little, since it seems to assume that any courtesy done by one person for another is automatically a "problem" for the doer, and that the recipient of the courtesy should feel guilty for having asked, until released from that guilt by the doer's "No problem." But then, I guess this is merely evidence that "No problem" has not yet achieved formula status with me. Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:42:00 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: You all probably hashed this over long before I joined the list, but what are your collective observations on the fact that {'s} possessive has become a plural marker, at least in these parts (Penna), as in Used toy's for sale. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 15:32:53 -0400 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Melissa, I do agree with your opinion of the absence of "You're welcome" in common language. When I grew up, I recall hearing that statement in a very polite manner responsive to every "Thank You" preceding it. I believe that society today is a little too lax with common use of vocabulary and the manners that accompany our language. "You're welcome" is a reply of courtesy that seems to have evaporated along with the sophisticated atmosphere society used to possess. Again, social influences have affected linguistics. Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:42:03 -0400 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: mb..., nd..., ngg... -Reply On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Herb Stahlke wrote: > I've observed a different sort of prenasalization > in some speaker of MUSE, but not the one > you've pointed out. What I've observed is the > spreading of nasality from a nasalized syllable > back across a voiceless stop, as in "ompen" for > "open." This doesn't help with your problem, > unfortunately. > > Herb Stahlke > Where exactly have you noticed this nasal speaking? I've never heard it and I'm curious as to what area it is in. Melissa S. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:57:00 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: whole nuther ballgame What is the source/background/history of a phrase like whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but evidently I didn't pay attention. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 16:57:13 -0500 From: Tom Creswell Subject: Re: Charles Carson's email address The email address in your posting is the one that appears on Carson's stationery as managing editor of PADS, Perhaps he just doesn't respond to email messages. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:01:07 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame I read this as an infix a-whole-nother Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > What is the source/background/history of a phrase like > whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. > I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department > here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but > evidently I didn't pay attention. > > Jeutonne > > ********************************************** > Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor > Department of English > University of North Carolina at Greensboro > Greensboro, NC 27412 > email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu > URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer > *********************************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 17:43:09 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: Thank You A couple of thoughts on "thank you": -- When I worked in fast food eleven years ago, we used "thank you" as an acknowledgement of any request, as in: Shift manager: "Four four-to-one buns, please" Toaster person: "Thank you!" -- I find I feel more comfortable saying "you're very welcome" rather than "you're welcome". My general sense is that the latter is less sincere, although I have no idea why the "very" should make any difference. -- I also find myself saying "of course" instead of "you're welcome." I intend it to mean "of course I would be glad to render that service to you, and never thought of not doing it." I work as a computer tech (more or less), and as it is a service-oriented job, this is a useful shorthand. -- Am I the only person who uses "my pleasure" any more? -- This thread reminds me of the greeting and closing in written letters. I think we are long past the point in which "Dear Lynne" actually meant anything other than "To Lynne" or "Hey, Lynne, I'm Talking to You!" In the same way, "Sincerely" doesn't mean sincerely at all. It means, "Now I Am Finished" or "My Inability to Conquer Formalities Requires That I Put This Word Here." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 18:23:31 -0400 From: Enid Pearsons Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you >. . . but i far prefer it to the s.a./uk 'it's a >pleasure', which is said no matter how unpleasant the activity >actually was. . . . and I'm somewhat bothered when told by the Automated Teller Machine, "It's been a pleasure serving you." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 19:57:14 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you This evening I witnessed a Thank you response to a Thank you" in a Dairy Queen. The second thanker stressed YOU. Now that the topic has been mentioned, I realize I've heard these interchanges, with stress as here described. I think I do it myself. Sometimes I say "No problem" if the implication of the original thanks is that it might have been some trouble for me to do whatever I was being thanked for. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 21:59:07 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Charles Carson's email address Charles Carson, Managing Editor of AMERICAN SPEECH and PADS, is usually very prompt in responding to e-mail. Once in a while the Duke system loses mailed messages; that could be why he didn't respond to Mr. Doyle's message. At any rate, I forwarded Doyle's message to Carson and I'm sure that Charles will take care of it promptly. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:14:13 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame Re ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I read this as an infix a-whole-nother Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > What is the source/background/history of a phrase like > whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. > I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department > here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but > evidently I didn't pay attention. > > Jeutonne > We did have at least one round on this a while back. My files are at work, but I recall arguing that this is NOT a true infix (of the sort we have in English with fan[fuckin]tastic, abso[bloody]lutely, etc.), but rather a reanalysis of an + other --> a + nother. This kind of reanalysis is legion, both in this direction (an ewt --> a newt) and especially in the opposite (an orange, an umpire, an apron: all from stems with historical initial n-). Without the reanalysis, we'd expect to get "a whole other', which in fact DOES occur and which we wouldn't be tempted to analyze as an infix construction. The one problem for the proposed analysis is that we might expect to get other adverbs intervening in the 'a [ADV] nother [N]' construction besides 'other'. Can anyone attest e.g. 'a totally/real/quite nother X'? In any case, the fact that 'whole' appears nowhere else within a morpheme or word (unlike the expletives 'fuckin', 'bloody', '(god)damn', etc. noted above) militates against a true infixation analysis here. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 12:09:58 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame I completely agree with Larry Horn's analysis. I teach Intro to Ling with (the Japanese translation of) an English general linguistics textbook and it gives "a whole nother" as an infix example as well. I thought to myself, "hey, this guy's a famous linguist, but this ain't right." Glad to know I'm not the only one who thought this was strange. Explaining it as an infix seems to have become a part of the "folk linguistics of linguists". Danny Long Larry Horn wrote: > We did have at least one round on this a while back. My files are at work, > but I recall arguing that this is NOT a true infix (of the sort we have in > English with fan[fuckin]tastic, abso[bloody]lutely, etc.), but rather a > reanalysis of an + other --> a + nother. This kind of reanalysis is legion, > both in this direction (an ewt --> a newt) and especially in the opposite (an > orange, an umpire, an apron: all from stems with historical initial n-). > Without the reanalysis, we'd expect to get "a whole other', which in fact DOES > occur and which we wouldn't be tempted to analyze as an infix construction. > The one problem for the proposed analysis is that we might expect to get other > adverbs intervening in the 'a [ADV] nother [N]' construction besides 'other'. > Can anyone attest e.g. 'a totally/real/quite nother X'? In any case, the fact > that 'whole' appears nowhere else within a morpheme or word (unlike the > expletives 'fuckin', 'bloody', '(god)damn', etc. noted above) militates > against a true infixation analysis here. > > Larry -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Oct 1997 to 20 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Oct 1997 to 21 Oct 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 297 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. whole nuther ballgame (3) 2. you're welcome/toy's for sale (2) 3. Thank You 4. Good morning (was "thank you") 5. RE>Good morning (was "thank you") 6. HOW TO TALK AMERICAN 7. Japanese Teens' Use of US English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 08:59:39 -0500 From: Brian James Callarman Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > What is the source/background/history of a phrase like > whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. > I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department > here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but > evidently I didn't pay attention. > > Jeutonne > > ********************************************** > Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor > Department of English > University of North Carolina at Greensboro > Greensboro, NC 27412 > email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu > URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer > *********************************************** > Six months ago I went hiking in the Palo Duro Canyon of the Texas Panhandle. While preparing and planning my route I was talking with a park ranger who told me, "If you climb over that there plateau there's a whole nother canyon system that no one really knows about." I too had heard this form used all my life, but this was probably the first time I ever really thought about it. Plus, I had three days alone on the trail to cogitate on it. It seems to me that this phrase would probably come from the breaking up of the word "another", which is just a grammaticalized form of "an other" and is used as an Adjective. If you weren't going to use the word "whole" in this phrase it would simply be, "...there's another canyon system...". You could say, "There's another whole...", and both "another" and "whole" would be modifying the following noun, but what the average Joe is really wanting to do is specify that the "canyon system" (or whatever is being talked about) is a different "canyon system" all together. This would place the emphasis of the sentence on the idea of "other". So, when the rubber meets the road in the split-second descision making of how to say what you mean useing the given tools to do so, how do you modify "other" and then use that phrase to modify "canyon system" at the same time in the same sentence? The speaker wants to use "whole" to modify "other" and "another" to modify "canyon system". This, in effect, becomes a whole nother form in English grammar all together. Brian Callarman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:57:17 -0500 From: mmcdaniel Subject: you're welcome/toy's for sale A couple of thoughts: 1. In addition to "You're welcome" evaporating, "Thank you" is losing ground to "Thanks," which seems more impersonal. 2. I am constantly finding apostrophes used to indicate plurals, both in the northeast US and in South Florida. I think this has a lot to do with some people's annoying habit of using all caps. -Matthew McDaniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 10:51:04 -0400 From: Brenda Lester Subject: Re: you're welcome/toy's for sale I live in cenral Georgia where "You're welcome" and "Thank You" are alive and well. In some cases, "Certainly" replaces "You're Welcome." Also, use of apostrophes for plurals is rampant. On Tue, 21 Oct 1997, mmcdaniel wrote: > A couple of thoughts: > > 1. In addition to "You're welcome" evaporating, "Thank you" is losing > ground to "Thanks," which seems more impersonal. > > 2. I am constantly finding apostrophes used to indicate plurals, both > in the northeast US and in South Florida. I think this has a lot to do > with some people's annoying habit of using all caps. > > -Matthew McDaniel > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:18:39 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame Isn't it just metanalysis, as in naranj to an orange, naddre to an adder, or the doublet apron/napkin, with the n being attracted to or detached from the article? What is interesting is the "infixing" of "whole" between a and nother. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > What is the source/background/history of a phrase like > whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. > I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department > here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but > evidently I didn't pay attention. > > Jeutonne > > ********************************************** > Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor > Department of English > University of North Carolina at Greensboro > Greensboro, NC 27412 > email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu > URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer > *********************************************** > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 14:19:00 -0400 From: Sarah Bug Subject: Re: Thank You On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: > A couple of thoughts on "thank you": > > -- When I worked in fast food eleven years ago, we used "thank you" as an acknowledgement of any request, as in: > Shift manager: "Four four-to-one buns, please" > Toaster person: "Thank you!" > > -- I find I feel more comfortable saying "you're very welcome" rather than "you're welcome". My general sense is that the latter is less sincere, although I have no idea why the "very" should make any difference. > > -- I also find myself saying "of course" instead of "you're welcome." I intend it to mean "of course I would be glad to render that service to you, and never thought of not doing it." I work as a computer tech (more or less), and as it is a service-oriented job, this is a useful shorthand. > > -- Am I the only person who uses "my pleasure" any more? > > -- This thread reminds me of the greeting and closing in written letters. I think we are long past the point in which "Dear Lynne" actually meant anything other than "To Lynne" or "Hey, Lynne, I'm Talking to You!" In the same way, "Sincerely" doesn't mean sincerely at all. It means, "Now I Am Finished" or "My Inability to Conquer Formalities Requires That I Put This Word Here." > You are not the only person who says "my pleasure." I say it all the time! --Sarah White "America I've given you all and now I'm nothing." --from "America" by Allen Ginsberg ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 13:33:15 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame The process is usually called "recutting." The 'whole' is not an infix. A while back I did hear 'nuther' with another phrase, but I don't recall what it was :( Nevertheless, the SED turned up instances of 'nadder' and 'napron' in various counties. It's quite possible that these forms exist today in English dialect speech. Fritz Juengling Dept. of Foreign Languages St. Cloud State University >Isn't it just metanalysis, as in naranj to an orange, naddre to an adder, >or the doublet apron/napkin, with the n being attracted to or detached >from the article? What is interesting is the "infixing" of "whole" >between a and nother. On Mon, 20 Oct 1997, Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > >> What is the source/background/history of a phrase like >> whole nuther xxx? Someone asked me about his phrase today. >> I've heard it all my life. I hear it in the English Department >> here. I think that I have read some discussion of this, but >> evidently I didn't pay attention. >> >> Jeutonne >> >> ********************************************** >> Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor >> Department of English >> University of North Carolina at Greensboro >> Greensboro, NC 27412 >> email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu >> URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer >> *********************************************** >> Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University St. cloud, Minnesota ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 15:59:45 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Good morning (was "thank you") On the same note (perhaps) I remember as a teenager being put off by having to say "Good morning" or "morning" when you'd see your family for the first time after waking up. I thought it was dumb to have to say this phrase which didn't make sense (Tolkien, in the first chapter of the Hobbit has a nice little piece on the various meanings of Good morning", or is it Good Day?) so I always said plain old "Hi" and still do today. I've found it interesting that some people are willing to give a Hi back to me, but others insist on saying Good morning. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 16:34:23 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Good morning (was "thank you") From: (Dale F. Coye) > On the same note (perhaps) I remember as a teenager being put off by having > to say "Good morning" or "morning" when you'd see your family for the first > time after waking up. I think I mentioned this before, but on the Carribean island of St. Croix, "good morning" is the standard greeting when entering shops or rooms, joining friends or strangers, answering the phone or being served on line. Although it is not necessarily common, people don't think twice if you use "good morning" in the afternoon, but they'll look in askance if you start a conversation without even the minimal formality of "good morning." Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com PS: Come back, Barry Popik. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:03:06 -0400 From: Jim Crotty Subject: HOW TO TALK AMERICAN Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty has taken the standard format of your average slang book and turned it upside down, with plenty of digs to upset any provincial reviewer. Endorsed by no less an authority than William Safire (New York Times Magazine two different times in the summer of 97- thank God he didn't actually read it!). How To Talk American (Houghton Mifflin) has everything any phat bank new jack Lab-Schooled dirty-testing mainline flame-baiting bit-flipping byte-bonding aisle-gawking ghostbusting Scotty-searching mad spun greenlocked beach nourished tree-hugging gross playing earwigged butt- flossed boogered up brain farting hackalogical A-list Kinsey Six cherry-picking trash-talking dialed in multi-culti Beverly-adjacent hen-pecked high maintenance hardscrabble stage-diving crowd-surfing fully actualized externally validated plugged in hella cool nickle-diming bumfuzzled commonistic double stoked free ballin' aqua-booting nipple rashed cannonballing bear-spotting doughnut-popping Windy-bound cross-addicted bottom-hitting chopped up puked out interupt-driven idea hamster could ever EVER want to know about American vernacular. There are hundreds of fascinating terms in this book ("Kevork," "trustafarian," "Behind the Zion Curtain"), plus complete lexicons to regional banter, such as Bwostin ("the TS of a clown when there's no around"), Picksburgh ("quit jaggin' dat jumbo!") and New Yawk ("Hey, smatter wid you?"). But this is not only a groovy dictionary of slang, it is a compelling snapshot of America as seen through the eyes of a man who has lived eleven years on the road, meeting and greeting, obsessing and procrastinating, but, most of all, just regretting. A "tour de farce," says the Great Dolly Lama. "Pretty good," says Jim's mom. If you ever wanted the ideal Christmas gift, this book is it (it sure beats a pet rock...bigger too). And a signed copy is only $15 through Monk (includes p&h). Call 212-465-3231. Or write Mail Order Monk, 3288 21st Street, #173 San Francisco, CA 94110. (Check, Mastercard or Visa accepted) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 23:34:08 -0400 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: Japanese Teens' Use of US English I cannot seem to get it off the NYT site. Any way you can email to me, if you have? Thanks. Jim Crotty ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Oct 1997 to 21 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Oct 1997 to 22 Oct 1997 There are 13 messages totalling 359 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Bless you" (was "Good morning") (3) 2. whole nuther ballgame (2) 3. Ask your help 4. Bless You (3) 5. thank you . . . thank you (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 11:14:11 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") I don't mind saying "Good morning," but I hate being told "Bless you" after a sneeze! Talk about mindless speech customs!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 10:48:10 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") A university (which I shall leave nameless) voice mail system completes it's recorded invitation to leave a message with "and god bless you". Everything else aside, is a voice mail system (now, this, Ron, is mindless in a literal sense) capable of blessing me? beth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 08:58:15 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") Gosh, Ron! Spoil my party, will you?! I found this custom one of the few redeeming social values of living in New York City. In most respects it's the capital of incivility, where you're apt to get your head bit off for asking an innocent question in a shop or asking a cab driver to wait for you, or having the temerity to want to withdraw your own money from the bank, and where cashiers will slam the change down on the counter to avoid touching your outstretched hand. Nonetheless, I don't think I ever sneezed on the street without having some passing stranger say, "Bless you!" I'm from "Gesundheit!" country, and it never ceased to amaze me. In the first place, the phrase taken literally seems somehow more actively kind and caring than "Gesundheit," and even taken as an empty formula, it still struck me as a conscious gesture of making human contact with a stranger in a city which otherwise does a poor job at interpersonal relations. Oregon is a much friendlier place than New York City in all other respects, but you rarely have strangers on the street say "Gesundheit!" (or anything else) when you sneeze. Peter On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: > I don't mind saying "Good morning," but I hate being told "Bless you" after a > sneeze! Talk about mindless speech customs!!!!!! > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:42:37 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame >Re > . This kind of reanalysis is legion, >both in this direction (an ewt --> a newt) and especially in the opposite (an >orange, an umpire, an apron: all from stems with historical initial n-). add 'nickname' from 'an ekename' to the list. The SED also turned up 'nants' for 'ants' and 'nangnail' for 'hangnail.' The progression must have been a hangnail> an angnail (with usual loss of [h]) > a nangnail. Fritz Juengling Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University St. cloud, Minnesota ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 16:18:40 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame Fritz Juengling writes > >> This kind of reanalysis is legion, >>both in this direction (an ewt --> a newt) and especially in the opposite (an >>orange, an umpire, an apron: all from stems with historical initial n-). >add 'nickname' from 'an ekename' to the list. > >The SED also turned up 'nants' for 'ants' and 'nangnail' for 'hangnail.' The >progression must have been a hangnail> an angnail (with usual loss of >h]) > a nangnail. I wonder. Since, as I think Dennis P. reminded us recently, 'hangnail' is a folk-etymologized (or, as the OED puts it, an "accommodated") variant of the earlier a(n)gnail (which was around for 8 centuries before the first 'hang- nail' showed up, I don't think Fritz's chronology is that likely. In fact, the history (as given under 'agnail' in the OED is quite interesting; when 'hangnail' first appeared, it was itself viewed as a dialect form, along with the Scottish 'anger-nail' and 'nangnail'. As for the latter, I'm not sure this was your standard metanalysis, as in the nuncle/nickname/newt set. Wright's English Dialect Dictionary includes not only 'nangnail' and 'gnangnail' for 'corn', 'bunion', 'ingrown nail', etc., but also the verbs 'nang' and 'gnang', with the sense 'gnaw', 'ache'. There seems to be a clear relation here, if only one of an obvious folk-/motivated reanalysis. Both (g)nang and (g)nang- nail were especially frequent in Yorkshire dialect, it appears. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 13:18:22 PDT From: barbara Subject: Re: Ask your help I have a horrible feeling that "puppy pie" is the same as Johanna's "cow pie," just from a different source, and that the bargee was upset to be called the equivalent of a "shit eater," as well he might be! And while I'm at it, doesn't saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes go back to the Black Death and sneezing as a symptom of plague? Remember that lovely bit of dialogue from _The Lady's Not for Burning_, said by the priest (abbot, friar whoever) just as he exits, "God bless you in case you sneeze." "Thank you. I may." Talk about preventive medicine! (Actually, this relationship just dawned on me after I'd been talking to a class about the nursery rhyme "Ring Around a-Rosy" and its imitation of the plague-stricken.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 17:15:14 PDT From: Amy Schroeder Subject: Re: Bless You My sixth grade teacher, rest her soul, insisted that we say God Bless You, because, in her opinion, when you sneezed your spirit literally left your body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some ancient Greek source for this, something along the lines of one's spirit inhabiting the breath? ---------- > > I have a horrible feeling that "puppy pie" is the same as Johanna's "cow pie," > just from a different source, and that the bargee was upset to be called the > equivalent of a "shit eater," as well he might be! > > And while I'm at it, doesn't saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes go back > to > the Black Death and sneezing as a symptom of plague? Remember that lovely bit > of dialogue from _The Lady's Not for Burning_, said by the priest (abbot, > friar > whoever) just as he exits, "God bless you in case you sneeze." "Thank you. I > may." Talk about preventive medicine! (Actually, this relationship just > dawned on me after I'd been talking to a class about the nursery rhyme "Ring > Around a-Rosy" and its imitation of the plague-stricken.) > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:00:58 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Bless You At 05:15 PM 10/22/97 PDT, you (Amy Schroeder ) wrote: >My sixth grade teacher, rest her soul, insisted that we say God Bless You, >because, in her opinion, when you sneezed your spirit literally left your >body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some ancient Greek source >for this, something along the lines of one's spirit inhabiting the breath? > It's a very common belief in many (hmmm, is nonmodern the right term?) cultures, including ancient Greek. Though he's no longer considered factually reliable in many regards, James Frazer's _The Golden Bough_ is I imagine reliable enough on this very common belief. Check his indexes. Since you breathe when you are alive and when you stop breathing you are dead, breath = life, and breathing out the wrong way is dangerous. Cf. covering one's mouth. (Of course, there are both "practical" and "superstititous" reasons for these things I'm sure.) Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 15:25:44 -0400 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Susann, I agree that society does not take the time to be polite or courteous anymore. Today, everyone is in such a hurry to get everything done, that they overlook the people around them. No one is polite anymore. There are no more 'excuse me's or 'you're welcome's. It's a rare occurence to have a gentleman open the door for a lady anymore and when he does the lady no longer says 'thank you'. People no longer care about common courtesy or improving a stranger's day with a kind smile. A few nice words here and there can make a huge difference in someone's day, but it doesn't seem to matter anymore. Any opinions on this are welcome. I would love to hear what everyone thinks about the lack of formality in society today. Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:51:43 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Melissa, do you have any evidence that people used to be more polite and/or formal than they are today? And what's your time frame for "used to"--50 years ago? 500 years ago? 10 years ago? How do you measure politeness: use of title + last name vs. first name? use of pleases and thankyous vs. Hey you and OK? Like some others, I absolutely hate "(God) bless you"; it's not really polite and personal so much as formulaic and empty, IMHO, and I (subtly?) signal my rejection of it by never saying "Thank you" afterwards. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:17:33 -0400 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > Melissa, do you have any evidence that people used to be more polite > and/or formal than they are today? And what's your time frame for > "used to"--50 years ago? 500 years ago? 10 years ago? How do you > measure politeness: use of title + last name vs. first name? use of > pleases and thankyous vs. Hey you and OK? Like some others, I > absolutely hate "(God) bless you"; it's not really polite and personal > so much as formulaic and empty, IMHO, and I (subtly?) signal my > rejection of it by never saying "Thank you" afterwards. > Can you honestly say that you haven't noticed a decrease in politeness in the last 20, 10, even 5 years? People do not speak kindly. They no longer use words that show their respect for people. For example, your response seemed kind of impolite to me. I know that you had to have noticed the change in people today. There is no formality. There is no polite small talk amongst strangers anymore. There is no one asking stranger how they are doing that day. How could you not notice these things. As for a time frame, pick a date and look at the decrease of pleasant ness from there on. Melissa ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 19:45:07 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: > Can you honestly say that you haven't noticed a decrease in politeness in > the last 20, 10, even 5 years? People do not speak kindly. They no > longer use words that show their respect for people. For example, your > response seemed kind of impolite to me. I know that you had to have > noticed the change in people today. There is no formality. There is no > polite small talk amongst strangers anymore. There is no one asking > stranger how they are doing that day. How could you not notice these > things. As for a time frame, pick a date and look at the decrease of > pleasant ness from there on. you're equating two things with being polite: being formal and engaging in meaningless (but "pleasant") talk. whether being formal is good or not, i must take issue with the latter. i find it really IMpolite that strangers want to engage me in meaningless banter. for instance, i'm a single woman who likes to do things alone, like going to movies and eating in restaurants. other people (projecting their own fears of being alone onto me, i presume) insist on talking to me--and making small (high in quantity, low in quality) talk. here i am with nabokov in my hand and i have to grunt my agreement with this stranger's assessments of the weather, the big game on saturday, and the political situation. the WORST is when strangers tell me to smile. excuse me? for all you know my dog just died, the great love of my life has run off with the best dentist i ever found, and i've just accidentally killed a troop of boy scouts with my car. hey, for all that relentlessly cheery person knows, i may have some horrid nerve disease which makes it impossible for me to smile--and they've just reminded me of my horrid disfigurement by pointing it out. note here that my definition of "polite" is: not making the other person feel bad. the problem is, of course, that you can't really know what will make a stranger feel bad--so people pick some lowest-common-denominator behaviors and assume that they'll make everyone feel good. there's a general american belief that everyone should be friends with everyone--but that ends up just diluting and warping the notion of friendship. (to get this back to the linguistic and the educational--this was a hot topic in my cross-cultural linguistics class a few weeks ago. recommended readings: stewart & bennett's _american cultural patterns_, chapter 5 & the article on finnish perspectives on american "superficiality" in samovar & porter's _intercultural communication_, 8th ed.) fight the hegemony of the cheerful! up with angst! we are our own corpses! a little punchy, but still happily morbid and morose, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:56:16 -0400 From: Jody Subject: Re: Bless You I assume that all of this discussion about politeness and the decline thereof in the linguistic sense can also be seen in those that use the so-called "polite" terms, as we have come to consider them, when they mean absolutely nothing by the endearments. Why ask an acquaintance (or even stranger) "How are you doing?" if you don't care to hear the actual answer to the question. Is it supposed to be some sort of hypothetical question? I would prefer being ignored to being asked a question as such and refused a chance to answer that very question. My suggestion, don't even TRY to be polite if you couldn't care less. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Oct 1997 to 22 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Oct 1997 to 23 Oct 1997 There are 35 messages totalling 906 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. thank you . . . thank you (4) 2. "Bless you" (was "Good morning") (5) 3. Bless You (2) 4. politeness 5. RE>Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") (2) 6. The compassionate "Bless you" 7. Politeness (Was: Bless You) (3) 8. "Bless you" (was "Good morning") 9. sociolinguistic competence (3) 10. whole nuther ballgame (2) 11. Damned if you do, damned if you don't (2) 12. the mindlessness of "bless you" 13. the world is going to the currs (2) 14. Thank you, ....de nada 15. Blendings in Festival Names 16. 17. - no subject (01IP5OGNV35Q8X2EE4) - 18. prayers and involuntary bodily ejaculations 19. hello/good-bye ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 00:59:54 -0400 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you In a message dated 10/22/97 3:07:38 PM, you wrote: <> Complete generalization. I open doors for "ladies" all the time. And some of them thank me, and some of them don't. I meet brusque, controlling, completely uncivil women, and brusque, controlling, completely uncivil men. I also meet plenty of the opposite. One's own attitude is often the key factor in the response one gets. This age is eclectic. You can find every sort of formality, every sort of informality... some disingenuous, some sincere.... As one says in the hood... "it's all good." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:17:22 -0400 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") In a message dated 10/22/97 9:21:54 AM, you wrote: <> This stereotype of uncivil New Yorkers is once again refuted. New Yorkers are brusque, but often quite compassionate. "Bless You" is just one example of the unheralded side of this misunderstood breed of urban animal. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 01:18:10 -0400 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") In a message dated 10/22/97 8:48:31 AM, you wrote: <> Only if it is a Papal answering machine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 07:57:57 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:17:33 -0400 MELISSA S. SMITH said: >Can you honestly say that you haven't noticed a decrease in politeness in >the last 20, 10, even 5 years? People do not speak kindly. They no >longer use words that show their respect for people. For example, your >response seemed kind of impolite to me. I know that you had to have >noticed the change in people today. There is no formality. There is no >polite small talk amongst strangers anymore. There is no one asking >stranger how they are doing that day. How could you not notice these >things. As for a time frame, pick a date and look at the decrease of >pleasant ness from there on. Of course, were you to come to Guyton, Georgia, most of the folks would agree with you. They would agree that the earlier response that you mentioned did indeed have an impolite tone (and I would agree). They'd also agree that folks just aren't as polite any more. I, on the other hand, who moved here to Guyton from a large university environment, am convinced that I have landed somewhere in the past, in the very heart of gentility. It all depends on where you were before. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:25:17 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Lynne Murphy writes: >people (projecting their own fears of being alone onto me, i presume) insist >on talking to me--and making small (high in quantity, low in quality) talk. >here i am with nabokov in my hand and i have to grunt my agreement with this >stranger's assessments of the weather, the big game on saturday, and the >political situation. No amount of commentary on my part would be likely to alter your interpretation of their behavior. Still, I cannot resist observing what a classic passage your comments would make in yet another modernization of Dickens's "A Christmas Carol." In fact, you have inspired me to give it a try. :) <----- yet another bourgeois banality ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:32:32 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Bless You And for breath as the divine afflatus, see Jonathan Swift's A Tale of a Tub, Section 1. On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: > At 05:15 PM 10/22/97 PDT, you (Amy Schroeder ) wrote: > >My sixth grade teacher, rest her soul, insisted that we say God Bless You, > >because, in her opinion, when you sneezed your spirit literally left your > >body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some ancient Greek source > >for this, something along the lines of one's spirit inhabiting the breath? > > > > It's a very common belief in many (hmmm, is nonmodern the right term?) > cultures, including ancient Greek. Though he's no longer considered > factually reliable in many regards, James Frazer's _The Golden Bough_ is I > imagine reliable enough on this very common belief. Check his indexes. Since > you breathe when you are alive and when you stop breathing you are dead, > breath = life, and breathing out the wrong way is dangerous. Cf. covering > one's mouth. (Of course, there are both "practical" and "superstititous" > reasons for these things I'm sure.) > > Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:09:56 -0500 From: mmcdaniel Subject: Re: politeness Lynne, I'd have to agree with Melissa. There has been a decrease in politeness over the years. As far as your personal feelings regarding strangers talking to you: Yes, your dog may have died, but all the more reason for people to talk to you. Sure, there are times when we need to be alone, but at other times being alone is what we want, not necessarily what is best. Many people are already afraid to engage a stranger in conversation, and I think that if we promote the "leave me alone" attitude, then society will keep on its downward spiral. Beth, the voice mail system is used to convey the message, "(may) God bless you." If you read a letter from a friend, in which the friend wrote "God bless you," you wouldn't say, "Is a letter capable of blessing me?" Beverly, in some cases saying "Bless you" is "not really polite and personal so much as formulaic and empty"; however, ignoring the person saying it is definitely rude, regardless of your intentions. The ignoring becomes the issue rather than the possible insincerity. Of course it's best to do the right thing for the right reason. But it's better to do the right thing for the wrong reason than the wrong thing. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:08:04 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") > > This stereotype of uncivil New Yorkers is once again refuted. New Yorkers are > brusque, but often quite compassionate. "Bless You" is just one example of > the unheralded side of this misunderstood breed of urban animal. Since when was brusque considered polite? This type of speech is often seen as a face-threatening act which in turn requires one to resort to "saving face". The use of "Bless you" is a linguistic element of speech used more extensively by some than others. The question is who is more apt to use it and is this a regional thing. If so, why? Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:58:11 -0400 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") Lynne's idea that politeness does not equal mindless chatter about nothing is on the mark. I'm afraid (not really, but it's another one of those phrases we use and don't mean) that Melissa's attitude is far more common. Except in New York. I think the human collective known as "New York City" has come to an agreement that there is not enough time in the day for insincere, essentially dishonest, pleasantries. Whereas New Yorkers might be called rude, I think "curt" or "abrupt" or "to the point" might be more accurate. Southern gentility, as far as I'm concerned, is merely a delusional mask for the bad wiring and malfunctions that make up your average human being. The Southern collective has come to an agreement to participate in the group-deception known as "gentility." That said, you should know that I'm the same guy who finds hello and goodbye to be superfluous when using the phone and have been known to end intracontinental calls with a single "goodbye" rather than with the usual square dance of see ya's, goodbyes, I love you's, take care's, alright's, okay's, mbye's, etc. Grant Barrett Former Missourian, now living in New York City PS: Famous dead people are visiting my living room and trying to have conversations. Barry Popik, where are you? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:20:33 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: Bless You On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 21:56:16 -0400 Jody said: >I assume that all of this discussion about politeness and the decline >thereof in the linguistic sense can also be seen in those that use the >so-called "polite" terms, as we have come to consider them, when they >mean absolutely nothing by the endearments. Why ask an acquaintance (or >even stranger) "How are you doing?" if you don't care to hear the actual >answer to the question. Is it supposed to be some sort of hypothetical >question? I would prefer being ignored to being asked a question as such >and refused a chance to answer that very question. My suggestion, don't >even TRY to be polite if you couldn't care less. "How are you doing?" is not a true question. It is the equivalent of a canine tail-wag. If someone wags at me, I wag back, even if the wag is in the guise of a question. Among this tail-challenged human species, sometimes a verbal format is the best we can muster. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:26:41 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: The compassionate "Bless you" >This stereotype of uncivil New Yorkers is once again refuted. >New Yorkers are >brusque, but often quite compassionate. "Bless You" is just >one example of >the unheralded side of this misunderstood breed of urban >animal. So who needs compassion for a sneeze? I would rather have it if I fell down unconscious on the sidewalk--but the people would just step over me, right? Except for the guy who stopped to lift my wallet. Harumph. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:26:35 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") >and even taken as an empty formula, it >still struck me as a conscious gesture of making human contact with a >stranger in a city which otherwise does a poor job at interpersonal >relations. Precisely -- like a tail-wag. Thanks for putting it so well. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:27:34 -0600 From: BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: RE>Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") Having said all of that, may I ask why you are studying linguistics? Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis > > Grant Barrett > Former Missourian, now living in New York City > > PS: Famous dead people are visiting my living room and trying to have conversations. Barry Popik, where are you? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:54:41 -0500 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") You folks are hard! Even if the phrases (or tail wags, if you wish) are meaningless, they connect me to the people I meet in a (to me) satisfying way. I always say "good morning," I always say "bless you" when someone sneezes, and I always hold doors for people, especially the elderly (I'm a woman in my 30s, by the way). People who don't do these or similar things seem alien to me, and if for some reason I'm in a bad mood and don't do one of them, it makes me feel horrible! I realize that this is probably a learned behavior indicative of Southern society (not necessarily gentility), but I enjoy, even need, these meaningless pleasantries! A friendly old Southern redneck coon dog who wags her tail most of the time, Jessie Emerson > ---------- > From: Julia Cochran[SMTP:COCPROFS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU] > Sent: Thursday, 23 October, 1997 9:26 AM > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") > > >and even taken as an empty formula, it > >still struck me as a conscious gesture of making human contact with a > >stranger in a city which otherwise does a poor job at interpersonal > >relations. > > Precisely -- like a tail-wag. Thanks for putting it so well. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 08:55:20 -0600 From: Andrew & Diane Lillie Subject: Politeness (Was: Bless You) On the topic of politeness, I believe the real debate is a difference in the definition of what is "polite." To some, being polite means following traditions like saying "you're welcome" and making small talk. For others, it means minding your own business. When I was in Africa recently, I got hit by a difference in definition for "politeness" when I didn't say "thank you" along with EACH "yes" or "no." Among other things, I was considered quite impolite for switching my fork from left to right hand after cutting meat. The difference wasn't actual "politeness," but what was considered polite in a certain society. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:31:20 -0400 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: > I don't mind saying "Good morning," but I hate being told "Bless you" after a > sneeze! Talk about mindless speech customs!!!!!! > What in the world is so mindless with saying "Bless you". Please elaborate on your view of it being mindless. Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:34:26 -0400 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: Melissa, I agree in turn with the fact that people don't care for society anymore. I believe that the lack of formality in society today refers back to the selfishness that seems to have characterized itself into everyones personalities. This lack of formality leads me to a much broader question, What is an American. The drastic changes is unbearable. > Susann, > > I agree that society does not take the time to be polite or > courteous anymore. Today, everyone is in such a hurry to get everything > done, that they overlook the people around them. No one is polite > anymore. There are no more 'excuse me's or 'you're welcome's. It's a > rare occurence to have a gentleman open the door for a lady anymore and > when he does the lady no longer says 'thank you'. People no longer care > about common courtesy or improving a stranger's day with a kind smile. A > few nice words here and there can make a huge difference in someone's > day, but it doesn't seem to matter anymore. Any opinions on this are > welcome. I would love to hear what everyone thinks about the lack of > formality in society today. > > > Melissa S. Smith > mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:27:15 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: Politeness (Was: Bless You) At 08:55 AM 10/23/97 -0600, you wrote: >my fork from left to right hand after cutting meat. The difference >wasn't actual "politeness," but what was considered polite in a certain >society. But isn't that exactly what "politeness" is? A pattern of institutionalized behavior established by a specific group? The language conventions you employ identify you with a group just as the clothes you wear do and the way handle your silverwear. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 10:47:40 CST From: Ellen Johnson Subject: sociolinguistic competence Whoa! Let's step back from our cultural defenses and look at politeness from a metalinguistic standpoint. Whether I view it as good or bad is linguistically irrelevant. The relevant matter is that we acquire language in a sociocultural setting and along with it the pragmatic conventions of that culture (at least most of us do!). Every culture has rules about greetings and leavetakings, conversational maxims about how much or how little to talk, etc. As a linguist, I am interested in how these vary, but I try to refrain from using terms like "rude" and "deceitful" just as I don't talk about people using "poor" or "substandard" English. One point of interest is how these rules change over time, but we need some empirical evidence before we start making claims like "people aren't polite anymore". Some of this reminds me of a discussion on linguistic competence vs. fluency (i.e. rhetorical skill). We all make performance errors in violating politeness norms, but what of the individual who seems not to have acquired them, or who purposely flaunts them? Is sociolinguistic competence really analogous to linguistic competence? Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 11:36:11 -0600 From: charles fritz juengling Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame >I wonder. Since, as I think Dennis P. reminded us recently, 'hangnail' is >a folk-etymologized (or, as the OED puts it, an "accommodated") variant of the >earlier a(n)gnail (which was around for 8 centuries before the first 'hang- >nail' showed up, I don't think Fritz's chronology is that likely. In fact, >the history (as given under 'agnail' in the OED is quite interesting; when >'hangnail' first appeared, it was itself viewed as a dialect form, along with >the Scottish 'anger-nail' and 'nangnail'. As for the latter, I'm not sure this >was your standard metanalysis, as in the nuncle/nickname/newt set. Wright's >English Dialect Dictionary includes not only 'nangnail' and 'gnangnail' for >'corn', 'bunion', 'ingrown nail', etc., but also the verbs 'nang' and 'gnang', >with the sense 'gnaw', 'ache'. There seems to be a clear relation here, if >only one of an obvious folk-/motivated reanalysis. Both (g)nang and (g)nang- >nail were especially frequent in Yorkshire dialect, it appears. > > Larry I stand corrected. I didn't have the OED or EDD at hand when I wrote. I should have waited a day to check out everything first. However, I think this underscores the point that I made in my 'hoosier etymology' posting-- don't believe everything you read. The 'who's here?' / "Whose ear?" explanantions for hoosier are transparent. The problem with my explanation of a recutting of 'hangnail' is that it IS very believable. It was intended to be correct and not some joke. But when one gathers all the facts, it falls apart. So, beware--even if something seems obvious! Fritz Juengling Fritz Juengling Foreign Languages and Literature Department St. Cloud State University St. cloud, Minnesota ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 09:41:39 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: whole nuther ballgame On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, charles fritz juengling wrote: > The problem with > my explanation of a recutting of 'hangnail' is that it IS very believable. Ouch! Maybe so, but it also sounds very painful! :-) Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:16:06 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Damned if you do, damned if you don't If a linguist doing fieldwork in another language were to express anger at the ritual greetings used in that language, we would be shocked at such unprofessional behavior. And at such ignorance of the functions of various speech acts. We know that every utterance is not meant to convey a literal meaning. Yet when the linguists on this list encounter ritual greetings in our own language - they get furious. Either they are furious because others use ritual greetings, or they are furious because others don't. So in present-day American English, perhaps the function of ritual greetings is to mutually antagonize the interlocutors. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:28:17 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: the mindlessness of "bless you" >What in the world is so mindless with >saying "Bless you". Please >elaborate on your view of it being >mindless. Okay! 1. Since a sneeze is rarely if ever dangerous (at least to the sneezer), it strikes me as mindless to be prayed over simply because I sneezed. People don't say "Bless you" after farts, burps, or (usually) coughs, so why sneezes? (I realize that there are folk-explanations for the sneezee's "Bless you," some or all of which may be historically accurate, but that is beside the point. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the custom is mindless, rather than the act of saying "Bless you"!) 2. As an atheist, I'm unot especially delighted when people saying prayers on my behalf (at least vocal ones in my presence). It seems rather "mindless" to assume that I want to be prayed over! I should add that I am much too polite a person not to respond with "thank you" to a proferred "Bless you"--in fact, what maybe others me REALLY about the "Bless you" routine is that sometimes people seem irritated with me if I don't say "Bless you" when THEY sneeze. I should add also that I don't have a lot invested in all this--there are a LOT of times when I feel out of touch with my own culture, as for example when people ASSUME that I am interested in sports (who IS Dean Smith, anyway?--recently somebody asked me to observe a moment of silence in honor of Mr. Smith's impending retirement!) or that I drink alcoholic beverages. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:58:59 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: the world is going to the currs On Wed, 22 Oct 1997 20:17:33 -0400 MELISSA S. SMITH said: >Can you honestly say that you haven't noticed a decrease in politeness in >the last 20, 10, even 5 years? Yes, I can honestly say that. I can also honestly say that throughout the entire history of western culture folks have continued to mourn that the world was going to the dogs and that culture in general was in decline. Generally speaking, the older we get the more it seems that the world is going downhill, when really all we are observing is change. The evidence that I have from reading literature causes me to believe that impoliteness has always had a strong role to play (read Pope's "Essay on Man," for example). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 13:51:20 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Damned if you do, damned if you don't Allan writes: >If a linguist doing fieldwork in >another language were to express >anger at the ritual greetings used >in that language, we would be >shocked at such unprofessional >behavior. However, using oneself as an informant--and dispassionately examining one's own irritation at theritual language of one's own culture--is good scientific procedure, n'est-ce pas? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:03:18 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: Re: the world is going to the currs I think what a lot of folks see as a politeness decline has more to do with a change in so-called "developed" societies. With the information age so much upon us (cable/satellite tv, internet, etc.), we are more and more able to be 'alone' in our homes and yet not feel out of touch. On our overcrowded highways and streets, we are 'alone' in our cars. It is not really surprising that conventions which developed over many years to help us negotiate interpersonally with each other might atrophy somewhat in our current situtation. I'm with Ron,though, in refusing to see change as decline. Things are changing, and we can grow older and more resentful and crotchety because of it, or we can be more like those "cool" "older" folks all of us knew when we were very young--the ones who didn't automatically reject our speech, ways, and interests just because ours were different from theirs--and (no apologies to Nissan) enjoy the ride. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:27:23 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" Subject: Re: Thank you, ....de nada Around here you get "Thank you" back more often than "you're welcome," but you sometimes get "de nada" even from non-Spanish speakers. Would attempts to translate it lead to the commonly heard, "no problem" or "it was nothing"? Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:20:22 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" Subject: Blendings in Festival Names Here in Central Texas it is the time of festivals. These festivals recently have been given catchy names. In September, here in San Marcos, we have a Chilympiad. In Flatonia, a little town between here and Houston off I-10, this weekend there will be a Czhilispiel. This town was settled by Czechs and Germans. In nearby Shiner, home of the Spoetzl brewery and its Shiner Boc, last weekend there was a Boctober Fest. Are others of you hearing of such blendings in names of such events or is this just a local "infectuation"? Thanks, Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:42:55 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: sociolinguistic competence I just now read the flurry of messages responding to my rejection of Melissa's claim that politeness has declined. Ellen has said exactly what I had intended to say: We need _empirical evidence_ (which is also culturally contextualized, as other respondents have noted) for change-through-time claims; anecdotal impressions just won't do! (And what does it mean to say that "people don't care for society anymore," or to relate this to the question of what it is to be an American???) On "Bless you" specifically: It is of course intended as a "tail wag" (referred to generally as phatic communication). But the presumed sharing of a religious/theological frame of reference is what I react to when I remain silent--not angrily but as a kind of quiet protest. The German "Gesundheit" is more acceptable to me, since it only means "Good health," but of course few know it or use it anymore. Next week I'll be talking in my Sociolinguistics class about politeness and face and how they're culturally contextualized and empirically observable. Students will do small field-based projects--I'll let you know if they come up with startling new discoveries! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:07:12 -0700 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: sociolinguistic competence On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > > On "Bless you" specifically: It is of course intended as a "tail wag" > (referred to generally as phatic communication). But the presumed > sharing of a religious/theological frame of reference is what I react > to when I remain silent--not angrily but as a kind of quiet protest. Even though I happen to be a Humanist, I don't feel any more need to be silent in protest when someone says "Bless you" (How dare that stranger not know my religious beliefs!) than I do when someone says "Good-bye," that heavily theological expression that "really means" "God be with you." (Then of course there's "Hell-o," but that's another story.) I don't for a moment consider that either expression has anything to do with prayer except in etymological terms. Whether the stranger "blessing" me is religious or not, he or she means well by the greeting, and I say "thank you" (for directing a well-meaning expression my way, whatever your particular frame of reference may be). > The German "Gesundheit" is more acceptable to me, since it only means > "Good health," but of course few know it or use it anymore. Huh? I say it--and hear it--all the time! Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:17 EDT From: Michael Montgomery Subject: Dear Ron: My recollection is that "Bless you!" is appropriate after a sneeze because the reflexes force you to close your eyes when you sneeze. It is in this split second when you are not looking that the devil may sneak in. This is the folklore I remember and don't know where to reference it, but I don't believe we automatically close our eyes when we burp, fart, or cough! Just trying to keep eyes open during a sneeze. By the way, Ron, "Bless you" is not a prayer, the distinctive features of the latter being that it is phrased in second person (often with a vocative) and addressed directly to a deity. "Bless you" does not have these characteristics, so far as I can discern. Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:57:44 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: - no subject (01IP5OGNV35Q8X2EE4) - Michael's right, of course; "Bless you" is the subjunctive wish that God may bless you. And I agree with Peter that the speaker may or may not be religious and has no reason to know whether or not I am. Mine is a kneejerk reaction to childhood "blessings" and admonitions, I suppose--so all right already, I'll start saying "Thank you"! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:01:32 -0400 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: Politeness (Was: Bless You) On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Andrew & Diane Lillie wrote: Andrew and Diane, Precisely! you are on the same wavelenth as me. The debate is considering the definition of politeness. It obviously means something different to everyone. Saying "you're welcome" is polite in my manners but for you it may not be. Well, this society today needs to be a little more open-minded, and as I said before a little less selfish, and respect whatever manners and "polite gestures" offered towards them by other individuals. Open-mind! > On the topic of politeness, I believe the real debate is a difference in > the definition of what is "polite." To some, being polite means > following traditions like saying "you're welcome" and making small > talk. For others, it means minding your own business. When I was in > Africa recently, I got hit by a difference in definition for > "politeness" when I didn't say "thank you" along with EACH "yes" or > "no." Among other things, I was considered quite impolite for switching > my fork from left to right hand after cutting meat. The difference > wasn't actual "politeness," but what was considered polite in a certain > society. > Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:14:42 EDT From: RonButters Subject: prayers and involuntary bodily ejaculations Michael M. writes: > "Bless you" is not a prayer, the distinctive features >of the latter being that it is phrased in second person >(often with a vocative) and addressed directly to a deity. >"Bless you" does not have these characteristics, so far as I >can discern. Hmmmm. Methinks M. is confusing surface structure with deep structure (to use some somewhatarchaic technical language). I suppose "Bless you" COULD be the surface form of "I hereby bless you, sneezer," but it seems more likely that most sneezees do not consider that they personally have the power to bless a sneezer (cf. "Bless me father, for I have sinned") but only the power to ask their Higher Power to bless the sneezer; in other words, the underlying form is "I hereby pray that the Deity will bless you, sneezer!" (Cf. "Bless this house/sneezer [O! Lord I pray. Make it/him/her safe both night and day]"). Michael also says: >"Bless you!" is appropriate after a sneeze >because the reflexes force you to close >your eyes when you sneeze. It >is in this split second when you >are not looking that the devil may >sneak in. I don't attach any importance to the fact that sneezers must close their eyes but farters and burpers need not do so. Surely the devil--who was smart enough to get Eve to eat the apple--can "get in" during the distraction of an anal fricative. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:34:04 EDT From: RonButters Subject: hello/good-bye Peter writes: >I don't feel any more need to be >silent in protest when someone says >"Bless you" (How dare that stranger >not know my religious beliefs!) than >I do when someone says "Good-bye," >that heavily theological expression >that "really means" "God be with you." No, "Good-bye" does not "really mean" "God be with you" (whatever its history). It "really means" 'this conversation is over' or 'I am leaving'. "Bless you," on the other hand, has no meaning at all (other than 'I am being conventionally polite by uttering this prayer formula'). The difference is that "Good-bye" serves a conversational function, while "Bless you" has no primary function whatever. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Oct 1997 to 23 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1997 to 24 Oct 1997 There are 30 messages totalling 965 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. sociolinguistic competence (2) 2. Your mail (5) 3. - no subject (01IP5OGNV35Q8X2EE4) - 4. hello/good-bye (3) 5. Those (expletive deleted) stereotypes 6. the mindlessness of "bless you" 7. Sneeze 8. Blendings in Festival Names (2) 9. sea change (6) 10. Damned if you do, damned if you don't 11. annoying phatic utterances 12. "How are you doing?" (2) 13. The whole "bless you-thing" 14. "Bless you" (2) 15. Summary: AmEng external sandhi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:55:49 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: sociolinguistic competence On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 16:42:55 -0400 Beverly Flanigan said: > On "Bless you" specifically: It is of course intended as a "tail wag" > (referred to generally as phatic communication). But the presumed > sharing of a religious/theological frame of reference is what I react > to when I remain silent Maybe, to be consistent, then, one might become silently angry whenever one is subjected to other religiously/theologically framed expressions such as "damn it," "go to hell," and "oh my God!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:05:28 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: Your mail On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:17 EDT Michael Montgomery said: >By the way, Ron, "Bless you" is not a prayer, the distinctive features >of the latter being that it is phrased in second person (often with a >vocative) and addressed directly to a deity. "Bless you" does not have >these characteristics, so far as I can discern. You're right...it's subjunctive, with (ahem, the alleged) God in the third person and "May" deleted but presumably, at one time, understood. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:11:24 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: - no subject (01IP5OGNV35Q8X2EE4) - On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:57:44 -0400 Beverly Flanigan said: > Michael's right, of course; "Bless you" is the subjunctive wish that > God may bless you. And I agree with Peter that the speaker may or may > not be religious and has no reason to know whether or not I am. Mine > is a kneejerk reaction to childhood "blessings" and admonitions, I > suppose--so all right already, I'll start saying "Thank you"! The childhood admonitions...now those are a topic unto themselves, and so often paired with the "blessings" that it's easy to throw the proverbial baby out with the equally proverbial bathwater. I recall one immediately, regarding a certain Bible verse that reads that one should never call another person a "fool." Relying on the King James translation, we assumed that there was some- thing almost magically evil about the noun "fool," and never dared use it to refer to anyone present or absent. Yet, we never hesitated to call playmates "stupid idiots" and the like. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 02:22:37 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: hello/good-bye On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 22:34:04 EDT RonButters said: >No, "Good-bye" does not "really mean" "God be with you" (whatever its >history). It "really means" 'this conversation is over' or 'I am leaving'. >"Bless you," on the other hand, has no meaning at all (other than 'I am being >conventionally polite by uttering this prayer formula'). The difference is >that "Good-bye" serves a conversational function, while "Bless you" has no >primary function whatever. No function other than to provide an excuse to make contact with a fellow human. Those who say "bless you" when you sneeze likely have some interest in making contact with you, or with other people in general. Those who do not, likely have no such interest. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 01:18:26 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Those (expletive deleted) stereotypes Aarrgh!!! I am thoroughly sick and tired of the perpetuation of the stereotype of the "rudeness/brusqueness/incivility/etc., etc. of New Yorkers. It is as invalid as the stereotyping of Midwesterners as wonderful/down home/common-sensical/honest/caring/etc., etc. No one area, thank goodness, has folks of either all good attributes or all bad attributes. I've lived on both coasts (including North Carolina) and in the middle and I got really disgusted by the perpetuation of these absolutely invalid stereotypes and having to defend New York and feeling that I had to puncture the ridiculous myth of the midwest in honest balance. End of rant. Sorry. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:52:48 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: the mindlessness of "bless you" as an athiest, do you take similar offense at goodbye (god be with ye) or so long (salaam aleikoum)? On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: > >What in the world is so mindless with > >saying "Bless you". Please > >elaborate on your view of it being > >mindless. > > Okay! > 1. Since a sneeze is rarely if ever dangerous (at least to the sneezer), it > strikes me as mindless to be prayed over simply because I sneezed. People > don't say "Bless you" after farts, burps, or (usually) coughs, so why > sneezes? (I realize that there are folk-explanations for the sneezee's "Bless > you," some or all of which may be historically accurate, but that is beside > the point. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the custom is > mindless, rather than the act of saying "Bless you"!) > > 2. As an atheist, I'm unot especially delighted when people saying prayers on > my behalf (at least vocal ones in my presence). It seems rather "mindless" to > assume that I want to be prayed over! > > I should add that I am much too polite a person not to respond with "thank > you" to a proferred "Bless you"--in fact, what maybe others me REALLY about > the "Bless you" routine is that sometimes people seem irritated with me if I > don't say "Bless you" when THEY sneeze. > > I should add also that I don't have a lot invested in all this--there are a > LOT of times when I feel out of touch with my own culture, as for example > when people ASSUME that I am interested in sports (who IS Dean Smith, > anyway?--recently somebody asked me to observe a moment of silence in honor > of Mr. Smith's impending retirement!) or that I drink alcoholic beverages. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:57:14 +0100 From: Aaron Drews Subject: Sneeze On Wed, 22 Oct 1997, barbara wrote: } }And while I'm at it, doesn't saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes go back to }the Black Death and sneezing as a symptom of plague? Remember that lovely bit }of dialogue from _The Lady's Not for Burning_, said by the priest (abbot, friar }whoever) just as he exits, "God bless you in case you sneeze." "Thank you. I }may." Talk about preventive medicine! (Actually, this relationship just }dawned on me after I'd been talking to a class about the nursery rhyme "Ring }Around a-Rosy" and its imitation of the plague-stricken.) I thought it was because your spirit left you when you sneezed, leaving you vulnerable to the devil. Well, back around the Plague era, anyway. Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 07:57:32 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Blendings in Festival Names Here in Carlisle PA we have an "Octubafest" (beer and tubas). Give it a miss. On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, Dickie M. Heaberlin wrote: > Here in Central Texas it is the time of festivals. These festivals recently > have been given catchy names. In September, here in San Marcos, we have a > Chilympiad. In Flatonia, a little town between here and Houston off I-10, > this weekend there will be a Czhilispiel. This town was settled by Czechs > and Germans. In nearby Shiner, home of the Spoetzl brewery and its Shiner > Boc, last weekend there was a Boctober Fest. Are others of you hearing of > such blendings in names of such events or is this just a local > "infectuation"? > Thanks, > Dick Heaberlin > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:37:42 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Your mail Julia Cochran writes: >On Thu, 23 Oct 1997 19:13:17 EDT Michael Montgomery said: > >>By the way, Ron, "Bless you" is not a prayer, the distinctive features >>of the latter being that it is phrased in second person (often with a >>vocative) and addressed directly to a deity. "Bless you" does not have >>these characteristics, so far as I can discern. > >You're right...it's subjunctive, with (ahem, the alleged) God in the third >person and "May" deleted but presumably, at one time, understood. We can try the diagnostic thoughtfully provided by Quang Phuc Dong, in his immortal article "English Sentences Without Overt Grammatical Subject", p. 6. [_Studies Out in Left Field_: Defamatory Essays Presented to James D. McCawley on the Occasion of his 33rd or 34th Birthday, Edmonton, 1971.] Quang cites the contrasts Damn {God/*Himself} Goddamn {God/*Himself} to argue against the analysis in which God is the underlying subject of such "verbs". By the same token, imagining oneself in Heaven in the presence of the sneezing Lord. Does one say (?)Bless Yourself. or, more likely Bless You. If my intuitions are correct, God cannot be the subject of "bless", whether the mood is subjunctive, imperative, or otherwise. It's clearly an empirical question. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:50:38 -0400 From: Carol Andrus Subject: sea change Can someone enlighten me about when the expression "sea change" came into our language? It's a common buzzword in corporate writing...a sea change in management, etc. Also, some words in English have a separate meaning for the plural, as in premise and premises (Macy's recently had a big sign at the 34th St. entrance: "No Solicitation on the Premise!") Daily, the NY Times uses the term "ground" as "he sued her on the ground that"...Isn't this a legal term and used in the plural? On the grounds that? I also see the singular usage in the CSMonitor. Even the most respected newspapers are coming up with inexcusable typos: the CSM recently described a new hairstyle as designed to resemble a Roman centurion's helmut, which my German friend Helmut loved! and the NYTimes had a headline: Study of Prostrate Cancer Proves Inneffective -- 2 boners in one headline! Sorry to ramble. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 10:56:11 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: sea change > > Can someone enlighten me about when the expression "sea change" came into our > language? It's a common buzzword in corporate writing...a sea change in > management, etc. It's an allusion to Shakespeare's Tempest: "Full fathom five thy father lies;/Of his bones are coral made:/Those are pearls that were his eyes:/Nothing of him that doth fade,/But doth suffer a sea-change/Into something rich and strange." (I.ii) Here it means 'a change brought about by the sea', but it's now used to mean 'any major transformation'. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:43:06 -0500 From: Tom Creswell Subject: Re: Damned if you do, damned if you don't Allan, Thank you for taking a professional stance and trying to make clear to the many who have expressed outrage at what they presume to be the motivation and "meaning" of ritual greetings that such phatic utterances express only non-hostile acknowledgement of the existence/presence of theperson to whom they are addressed. Tom Creswell -----Original Message----- From: Allan Metcalf To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Thursday, October 23, 1997 12:11 PM Subject: Damned if you do, damned if you don't >If a linguist doing fieldwork in another language were to express anger at >the ritual greetings used in that language, we would be shocked at such >unprofessional behavior. And at such ignorance of the functions of various >speech acts. We know that every utterance is not meant to convey a literal >meaning. > >Yet when the linguists on this list encounter ritual greetings in our own >language - they get furious. Either they are furious because others use >ritual greetings, or they are furious because others don't. > >So in present-day American English, perhaps the function of ritual greetings >is to mutually antagonize the interlocutors. > >- Allan Metcalf > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:16:33 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: sea change Re: the singular used for the plural, we also have the opposite: "a strange phenomena," "the single criteria." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:50:24 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Your mail Larry writes: >Quang cites the contrasts >Damn {God/*Himself} >Goddamn {God/*Himself} >to argue against the analysis in which >God is the underlying subject of such >verbs". I have never undestood this argument. It seems to me that "Damn!" is a shortening of "Damn it!" which in turn has the "underlying" structure "May God Damn it!" Who else would do the damning but God? How can anything other than God be the LOGICAL subject of "damn" (or "bless")? The fact that "*God damn himself!" is unacceptable to most people is irrelevant, since "May God damn himself!" is acceptable--the constraint is on the "deletion" of "May" before the reflexive. >By the same token, imagining oneself >in Heaven in the presence of the sneezing >Lord. Does one say >(?)Bless Yourself. >or, more likely >Bless You. >If my intuitions are correct, God cannot >be the subject of "bless" . . . >It's clearly an empirical question. Since this has never happened to me (or to anyone else who is signed up for ads-l) I'm not sure that it is relevant. I'm even less sure how this thought experiment is an "empirical" question. Nevertheless, I don't see why you couldn't say either one: "God bless you!" or maybe "Bless yourself, God." (The use of reflexives as a test for "subjecthood" is a bit murky, anyway, e.g., one can say either, "I aimed the gun at myself" or "I aimed the gun at me.") ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:53:09 -0400 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: sea change Sea change we certainly owe to Ariel's song in The Tempest, I.2 that begins "Full fathom five." Nothing of him that doth fade,/But doth suffer a sea-change/Into something rich and strange" (400-3). On Fri, 24 Oct 1997, Carol Andrus wrote: > Can someone enlighten me about when the expression "sea change" came into our > language? It's a common buzzword in corporate writing...a sea change in > management, etc. > > Also, some words in English have a separate meaning for the plural, as in > premise and premises (Macy's recently had a big sign at the 34th St. > entrance: "No Solicitation on the Premise!") Daily, the NY Times uses the > term "ground" as "he sued her on the ground that"...Isn't this a legal term > and used in the plural? On the grounds that? I also see the singular usage in > the CSMonitor. Even the most respected newspapers are coming up with > inexcusable typos: the CSM recently described a new hairstyle as designed to > resemble a Roman centurion's helmut, which my German friend Helmut loved! and > the NYTimes had a headline: Study of Prostrate Cancer Proves Inneffective -- > 2 boners in one headline! Sorry to ramble. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:10:35 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: annoying phatic utterances >as an athiest, do you take similar offense at goodbye (god be with ye) See my later posting on this. "Good-bye" has lost whatever good-driven origins it may have had; thils is largely because it has a primary communicative function (i.e., to signal the termination of a conversation or the withdrawal from presence). "Bless you!" has no primary communicative function--as Tom Cresswell rightly points out, it is functionally totally phatic, and therefore for me (and for many other native speakers) it seems an annoying, pointless intrusion with presumptious religious overtones (even though many speakers who use it intend no particular religious message). As I keep saying, I personally find it annoying and mindless, and I refuse to say it myself--but, hey, it is a free country and people are free to say lots of things that I (or you) may find annoying or presumptious. I do think that it is a useful bit of scientific linguistic obserevation to point out that there are native speakers of American English who DO find it annoying--and ([Mike Montgomery and Larry Horn take special note:] bless me!) I hope that all the dyed-in-the-wool blessers may find it useful to know that not everybody welcomes being blessed. Not that I expect a sea-change in phatic usage as a result of my observations. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:15:11 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: "How are you doing?" "How are you doing?" does have some kind of primary communicative function it seems to me, i.e., it means something like 'I am willing to have a conversation with you and am soliciting your first conversational move'. Of course, it is not always sincere. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:27:47 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: sociolinguistic competence >Maybe, to be consistent, then, >one might become silently angry >whenever one is subjected to Julia Cochran writes: >other religiously/theologically >framed expressions such as "damn >it," "go to hell," and "oh my God!" Good point--the difference for me is that "damn >it" and "oh my God!" are not directed at me, nor are they generally totally gratuitous, i.e., they have some kind of primary linguistic function beyond the merely phatic. as for "go to hell," that usually does make me angry. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:35:38 -0400 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: hello/good-bye Julia Cochran writes: >["Bless you!" has] no function other >than to provide an excuse to make >contact with a fellow human. Those >who say "bless you" when you sneeze >likely have some interest in >making contact with you, or with >other people in general. Those who do >not, likely have no such interest. I don't agree. "Bless you!" as conversational opener is pretty rare--the idea of waiting around for strangers to sneeze before talking to them is pretty ludicrous. Often "Bless you!" is uttered in the middle of conversations that have been temporarily halted by a sneeze (come to think of it, arguably it has some small function here that signals 'your sneeze did not disrupt our conversation'). Often it is uttered by people who are not in converstion but who know each other well (e.g., two people working in the same office). When a total stranger utters it to another, I don't think it is generally taken as a signal that a conversation should start--that may happen, as with a dropped package--but conversation-initiation is incidental, not functional. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 11:33:35 -0500 From: Thomas Creswell Subject: Re: "How are you doing?" Ron Butters wrote: > > "How are you doing?" does have some kind of primary communicative function it > seems to me, i.e., it means something like 'I am willing to have a > conversation with you and am soliciting your first conversational move'. Of > course, it is not always sincere. Yes, and the usual response is something like "OK" or "Fine" or "Hanging in," evem from a hospital bed. So much for the solicitation of first conversational moves. Anyone who goes into greater detail is usually classified as a literal-minded bore. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:39:26 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Your mail Ron writes >Larry writes: >>Quang cites the contrasts > >Damn {God/*Himself} > >Goddamn {God/*Himself} >>to argue against the analysis in which >>God is the underlying subject of such >>verbs". > >I have never undestood this argument. It seems to me that "Damn!" is a >shortening of "Damn it!" which in turn has the "underlying" structure "May >God Damn it!" Who else would do the damning but God? How can anything other >than God be the LOGICAL subject of "damn" (or "bless")? The fact that "*God >damn himself!" is unacceptable to most people is irrelevant, since "May God >damn himself!" is acceptable--the constraint is on the "deletion" of "May" >before the reflexive. What Quang ends up positing (and this was in the days of VERY abstract deep structures, especially chez McCawley, Quang's alter-ego) is Epithet --> Quasi-verb NP --so that Damn you, Fuck you, etc. have no underlying subject. Seems right to me. The extension to Bless you is, admittedly, somewhat speculative and may differ according to the religious convictions of the blesser. (Notice, in- cidently, that I am using "blesser" here metalinguistically and do not intend transcendental reference.) >>If my intuitions are correct, God cannot >>be the subject of "bless" . . . >>It's clearly an empirical question. >Since this has never happened to me (or to anyone else who is signed up for >ads-l) I'm not sure that it is relevant. I'm even less sure how this thought >experiment is an "empirical" question... Sorry. I thought I could get away without the smiley on that one. > (The use of reflexives as a test for "subjecthood" is a bit murky, anyway, > e.g., one can say either, "I aimed the gun at myself" or "I aimed the gun at > me.") Actually, this one I'll go to the mat for. There's a difference between object reflexives, whose governance conditions seem to be almost purely grammatical, and non-object reflexives, which (especially when there IS a direct object) are determined by a complex set of conditions resulting in what may seem to be optionality (as in the aim case above) but on closer examination aren't really a matter of mere "free variation"; among those writing insightfully on these are Kuno (_Syntactic Theory_), discussing such pairs as "She pulled the coat around her/herself". The relevant example in our case is not "I aimed the gun at me/myself" but "I shot myself/*me", or "Don't shoot yourself/*you". Larry obADS: Then there are the indirect object non-argument cases we've touched on here--I'm gonna get {me/myself} a beer, He's gonna find him a wife,... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:11:27 -0500 From: Thomas Creswell Subject: Re: sea change Julia Cochran wrote: > > Re: the singular used for the plural, we also have the opposite: > "a strange phenomena," "the single criteria." These are examples of a strong tendency to use these erstwhile Greek plurals in English as singulars. Although some regard such uses as errors and although they obviously stem from ignorance of their plurality in the source language, they simply represent a powerful tendency to thoroughly nativize such adoptions. Even more common, as attested by a usage note in MW10, is the use of _bacteria_ as a singular noun. I heard it used twice by Ray Jenkins, the NBC news anchor the other evening, and I have an extensive file of printed uses as a singular of all three of these erstwhile plurals in reputable publications. Similar singular uses of _agenda_ and _data_ are so frequent that they are now standard. _Agenda_ has even developed an English plural-- _agendas_. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:23:25 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Your mail "I aimed the gun at me"? I've heard the equivalents of "He got him (=refl) a gun" and "I'm going to get me (=refl) a gun," but never your example. Anybody else attest to this? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:33:13 -0500 From: Tom Creswell Subject: Re: sea change Of the three "boners" cited, only one _inneffective_ is an obvious aand incontestable simple typo. _Prostrate_ for _prostate_ is what I call a Spelchek error--the kind resulting from having copy run through a computer spelling checker, which accepts any "word" it finds in its dictionary, regardless of context or meaning, and not having it subsequently checked by a live human copy editor. About _helmut_, I can't be sure; it is most likely also a typo, but its source is problematical. It is unlikely that any spelling checker has _helmut_ as an entry, so tt seems most likely that it arises from a faulty transcription of a voice message, as the syllable has a schwa vowel in normal pronunciation, but of course a live copyeditor would have caught it. The frequency of Spelchek errors in presumably edited printed material suggests that the downsizing frenzy has extended to the copyediting department of many newspaper, book, and magazine publishers. . -----Original Message----- From: Carol Andrus To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Friday, October 24, 1997 9:45 AM Subject: sea change >Can someone enlighten me about when the expression "sea change" came into our >language? It's a common buzzword in corporate writing...a sea change in >management, etc. > >Also, some words in English have a separate meaning for the plural, as in >premise and premises (Macy's recently had a big sign at the 34th St. >entrance: "No Solicitation on the Premise!") Daily, the NY Times uses the >term "ground" as "he sued her on the ground that"...Isn't this a legal term >and used in the plural? On the grounds that? I also see the singular usage in >the CSMonitor. Even the most respected newspapers are coming up with >inexcusable typos: the CSM recently described a new hairstyle as designed to >resemble a Roman centurion's helmut, which my German friend Helmut loved! and >the NYTimes had a headline: Study of Prostrate Cancer Proves Inneffective -- >2 boners in one headline! Sorry to ramble. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 13:57:46 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Blendings in Festival Names At 07:57 AM 10/24/97 -0400, you (Robert Ness ) wrote: >Here in Carlisle PA we have an "Octubafest" (beer and tubas). Give it a >miss. > There are plenty of these festival coinages in New York: Wigstock (from Woodstock) is a cross-dressing event, and Woofstock is a canine event that raises money for the ASPCA. I don't think this is just about festivals. There's a very common tendency to coin proper names by taking existing compound words and changing one of their components, maybe especially the first of the two components. Think for example of all the "-----gate" scandals in the 80's and 90's, based on Watergate. I probably can't recall them all (from the Reagan, Bush, and Clinton years), but a few of them I've heard or read about are Iran-Contragate, Koreagate, Whitewatergate, Travelgate, Filegate, etc. etc. (Someone with NEXIS etc. could find them all I'm sure). This isn't a strict morphological thing; none of the "-----gates" has anything to do with a gate. (Cf. "copter," and compounds and collocations built on it, which result from an intuitive sonic division rather than a morphological division of helico-pter; and the now-insecapable "cyber----," which results from a nonetymological and nonmorphological division of cybern-etic, where the cybern- element has to do with the arrangement or government of a system, and not with computers at all originally.) It's just that everyone knows "-----gate" was a defining scandal, and "----stock" was a defining festival. I think brand names are sometimes coined by this method too, especially gimmicky silly ones targeted at a very young audience, but I can't think of any just now (and have to get back to other things) -- perhaps others can think of some. God bless us, every one??????? (Absit (n)omen!) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 14:08:08 -0500 From: Brian James Callarman Subject: The whole "bless you-thing" I have watched this whole deal that was started by the someone (I don't remember who) writing, for no apparent reason that I'm aware of, that they dislike being told "Bless you." This was then followed by several other similar comments and then erupted into a heated debate on politeness, Sociolinguistic ethics and other things. What interests me most of all is the emotional stir that such a simple little phrase like "Bless you" can produce (I say this because I thought I might have sensed tempers trying to flare a time or two). Whether or not we can say that this is the result of people just not being polite anymore is completely a different subject and is relative to the individual's ideas about what politeness is. However, I do think that we can say this, to a degree of certanty, without having empirical data: American culture is generally tending to move toward a more secular flavor and it is reasonable to assume that the language will and is following (I'm obviously not a fan of Whorf). Now, with that out of the way, I want to throw in my two cents. Setting all religious and cultural beliefs aside, why should anyone take offense at being told "bless you" when they sneeze or at any other time unless it was obviously said with the intent of provoking that person in a malicious way. The vast majority of times when "Bless you" is said, regardless of whether it is a mindless tradition or not, the speaker means absolutely no harm in it. Just don't worry about it. There's no need to make a big deal out of anything that simply is just not a big deal. Brian Callarman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:14:29 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: "Bless you" Ron Butters writes: >>> No, "Good-bye" does not "really mean" "God be with you" (whatever its history). It "really means" 'this conversation is over' or 'I am leaving'. "Bless you," on the other hand, has no meaning at all (other than 'I am being conventionally polite by uttering this prayer formula'). The difference is that "Good-bye" serves a conversational function, while "Bless you" has no primary function whatever. <<< If by "primary function" you mean "conveying information and regulating its conveyance", I guess so. Or maybe not. Consider a (mechanical) clock, with a traditional clockwork mechanism. Describe and name all the parts and their relationships, build the clock accordingly, and it won't run. What have you left out? The oil! Not a part, it has no specific function in the machine except lubrication, reducing friction where parts move against each other. Communication does not take place in vacuo, but in a society. That society's definitions of politeness will affect communication. If different segments of society have conflicting definitions of what's polite, misunderstandings and problems will arise, but that doesn't mean that politeness interferes with or dilutes communication. By reducing friction, the oil enables the clock to work; when all parties to a communication agree on the relevant manifestations of politeness, politeness similarly facilitates communication. (And it occurs to me that "polite" < L. "poli:tus" 'polished', i.e., smoothed to reduce friction!) Beverly Flanigan writes: >>> On "Bless you" specifically: It is of course intended as a "tail wag" (referred to generally as phatic communication). <<< Since "phatic" means 'relating to speech', that expression always looked strange to me, until I discovered that its originator had not written it! (Whoever it was) wrote "phatic *communion*", which was misread and misquoted by generations of linguists more ready to see a word relating to the transmission of information (v.s.) than to the closeness of souls. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:21:15 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: "Bless you" Mark Mandel writes: >Beverly Flanigan writes: >> On "Bless you" specifically: It is of course intended as a >> "tail wag" (referred to generally as phatic communication). >Since "phatic" means 'relating to speech', that expression always >looked strange to me, until I discovered that its originator had >not written it! (Whoever it was) wrote "phatic *communion*", which [It was Branislaw Malinowski --LH] >was misread and misquoted by generations of linguists more ready >to see a word relating to the transmission of information (v.s.) >than to the closeness of souls. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 15:51:16 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: Summary: AmEng external sandhi I asked on the LINGUIST List (#8.1442) and on ADS-L (the American Dialect Soc'y list): I am looking for descriptions of external sandhi in American English, especially such pronunciations as are often written "gotcha" (for canonical "got you"). I will post a summary to the list if there is sufficient interest. Many people kindly replied. Here is a summary of their replies: ===== Peter T. Daniels wrote: You need the work of a short-lived school of phonology called "natural generative phonology," which flourished(?) in the early 1970s in connection with the generative semantics school centered on the University of Chicago. The key name is David Stampe, whose dissertation was originally called "What I did on my summer vacation" but was retitled "A dissertation in natural phonology." You'll find articles in this genre in the Proceedings of the Chicago Linguistic Society from those years, and a volume from a Parasession on Natural Phonology in 1975 or so. [And I have the CLS volumes from that period at home, somewhere, from my Berkeley years. -- MAM] ===== James Giangola recommended _Patterns of English Pronunciation_ by J. Donald Bowen (UCLA), 1975, provided some samples, and even offered to fax me the relevant pages. [Thanks, James, but I found a copy at MIT.] ===== Ben Brumfield pointed out a regional example: Piedmont Virginia (Pittsylvania County, at least) features the case of /rajc^ yi:r/ Ri-Cheer For "Right Here" ===== Mel Resnick pointed me to his article: Resnick, Melvyn C. "The Redundant English Phonemes /c^,j^,s^,z^/." Linguistics 86 (1972): 83-86. Those symbols in the title are of course in place of the usual wedge symbols. ===== Aaron Drews recommends "any introductory linguistics text for a description of GA (General American) sandhi." ===== The redoubtable Arnold Zwicky advised: the problem here is that there's so much literature. for the GOTCHA stuff, one good place to start is joel rotenberg's 1978 mit dissertation, The Syntax of Phonology. [And whaddya know, Arnold, I found that one at MIT too!] ===== Betty Phillips pointed me to Holst, Tara & Francis Nolan. 1995. "The influence of syntactic structure on [s] to [ ] assimilation." _Phonology and Phonetic Evidence: Papers in Laboratory Phonology IV_. Eds. Bruce Connell & Amalia Arvaniti. Cambridge UP. 315-333. (where [ ] = "esh") [Also found at MIT.] ===== Alan Grosenheider and KIM DAMMERS mentioned some more English examples, and Kate McCreight described some work she's currently involved in. ===== My thanks to all! Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:23:57 EDT From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: hello/good-bye On Fri, 24 Oct 1997 12:35:38 -0400 Ron Butters said: >I don't agree. "Bless you!" as conversational opener is pretty rare--the >idea of waiting around for strangers to sneeze before talking to them is >pretty ludicrous. Of course it is. Conversational openers hadn't really occurred to me. I was thinking more of an excuse to make contact and acknowledge another human being. For those so inclined, sneezing provides only one of many such opportunities -- other such situations abound as well. >happen, as with a dropped package--but conversation-initiation is incidental, >not functional. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1997 to 24 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1997 to 25 Oct 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 53 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Metaphors to l*ve by 2. Reminder: Law & Society Ass'n Annual Call for Papers ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 18:55:49 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Metaphors to l*ve by Okay, metaphans, here's one for you to take apart. Seems a local high school sophomore class created a t-shirt for itself. On the front are these words: Sofmor Rednecks Class of 2000 On the back are these: Southern born southern bred 'till we die our necks are red. See? Everything you ever thought about the sticks is true! (I mean, of course, that they misspelled "southren.") Students designed the t-shirt, the sale of which was designed to "promote class spirit during Homecoming Week." ?!? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:03:18 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Reminder: Law & Society Ass'n Annual Call for Papers Abstracts (and checks or credit card nos.) are due! If you need additional info, please let me know. Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English/Chair, Ling. Prog. 301/1117 McClung Tower University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA 423-974-6965, 423-974-6926 (FAX) EMAIL: Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: [9-12/97: Professorial Lecturer/Dep't of Linguistics/470 ICC/ Georgetown U./ Washington, D.C. 20057/202-687-5956, 202-687-5712 (FAX)] ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1997 to 25 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 173 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Metaphors to l*ve by 2. Blessings and other southern euphemisms 3. "Able to Earn" 4. 5. unctuous speech 6. sociolinguistic competence 7. "Nary?" (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 08:41:17 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: Metaphors to l*ve by Bethany, As a teacher of high school sophomores, I can tell you that I am appalled (even if it was tongue-in-cheek.) Is there no respect for cultural and racial diversity in the schools in your area? These students would be prohibited from wearing this shirt in my school and the class advisor who permitted its printing and distribution would be called on the carpet. If the assumption that this is acceptable in the school is universal, I think there is a much deeper problem than a group of linguists can solve. And it stinks out loud. Peggy Smith Cleveland Hts. High School Cleveland Hts., OH 44118 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 01:43:36 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Blessings and other southern euphemisms All this talk about blessing has reminded me of what seems to me to be a very strange usage in this area. In my experience (pre-southern) expressions like "bless his heart" were used by old ladies when talking about a child who had done something good: "He brought me a flower from the garden, bless his heart." There was no question that the expression was positive. Both in Florida and here in Georgia, I began noticing the phrase used more widely, by younger people, although still mainly female, in somewhat more ambiguous contexts, like "He's won the doorprize for the third year in a row, bless his heart." I took it to mean something like "the lucky stiff" until I started noticing "bless" being used as a euphemism for "curse": "That student really blessed me out over the grade I gave her." This is much less common than "bless his heart," but I've heard it from maybe half a dozen women, but no men. Given this usage, I'm inclined to think that "bless his heart" means something closer to "damn his bones" -- a statement of resentment rather than pride. Somewhat similar might be the very common use of "I love him to death, but" (from women) and "He's a good Christian, but" (from men or women) as a prelude to vicious criticism, behind the target's back, of course. Note that it's not the criticism that is unusual, but the strange apology. And last, both in Florida and Georgia there seems to be a taboo against the word "swear" in the sense of an oath. Using profanity is "cussing" or (high style) "cursing," never "swearing," but I was surprised to hear statements like "I didn't touch the pie, I promise," instead of "I swear." To me "promise" can be used only for future events. Has this stuff been studied? -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:12:51 -0500 From: Elizabeth Gibbens Subject: "Able to Earn" Dear All-- Would anyone who is well-versed in terms of property and commercial law please explain the meaning and derivation of this phrase--"able to earn"? If you aren't sure, would you direct me to print or Internet sources that would be helpful? I'd appreciate it. Elizabeth Gibbens ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 17:52:22 -0300 From: Gustavo Fiorito Subject: Can you send me a list of list of discussion? Thanks and Very best Regards Gustavo Fiorito homero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iname.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 16:27:53 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: unctuous speech I agree with you about the uses of politeness--who wouldn't? But the oil analogy is misleading: clocks need oil, but not on the tips of the hands. Clocks need oil, but salad oil will not do. "Bless you" is just salad oil on the hands. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:00:00 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: sociolinguistic competence > phatic communication Please! It's phatic communion. The term originated as a reference to communing with those around us, not communicating with them nonverbally. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 21:39:47 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: "Nary?" I was just curious as to whether or not someone could tell me where the word 'nary' comes from. I heard it this weekend. I asked a friend a question and they told me that they ,'didn't care nary bit'. Is this common? I've never heard anything like it. It sounds like something that Foxworthy guy would joke about. Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:02:48 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: "Nary?" At 09:39 PM 10/26/97 -0500, you wrote: >I was just curious as to whether or not someone could tell me where the >word 'nary' comes from. I heard it this weekend. I asked a friend a >question and they told me that they ,'didn't care nary bit'. Is this >common? I've never heard anything like it. It sounds like something >that Foxworthy guy would joke about. > >Melissa S. Smith >mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > >From OED2 "nary a.": "[var. of ne'er a. The form is typically U.S., but app. occurs in some Eng. dialects, and is now used more widely outside the U.S.] Neither; no; not a; now almost always followed by the indef. article. Also (U.S.)" Usage citations run from 1746 to 1974.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Oct 1997 to 27 Oct 1997 There are 41 messages totalling 1323 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Nary?" (5) 2. Blessings and other southern euphemisms (3) 3. ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1997 to 24 Oct 1997 4. ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 (3) 5. Thoughts on "whole nuther" 6. unctuous speech -Reply 7. hello/good-bye 8. Neck hue. (5) 9. PC Dictionaries? (8) 10. Okay....new topic. (2) 11. shades of red? 12. redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. (7) 13. red neck 14. SALSA 98 Call for Papers 15. Emerge Article ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 08:24:58 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: "Nary?" Nary is a variant of "never a" ; I suspect that your friend actually said "nary a bit." Check DARE for a number of citations. On Sun, 26 Oct 1997, MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: > I was just curious as to whether or not someone could tell me where the > word 'nary' comes from. I heard it this weekend. I asked a friend a > question and they told me that they ,'didn't care nary bit'. Is this > common? I've never heard anything like it. It sounds like something > that Foxworthy guy would joke about. > > Melissa S. Smith > mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:07:00 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: Blessings and other southern euphemisms David A. Johns wrote: > In my experience (pre-southern) expressions like "bless his heart" > were used by old ladies when talking about a child who had done > something good: "He brought me a flower from the garden, bless his > heart." There was no question that the expression was positive. > I believe the expression as used above contains a note of pathos. It's almost always directed at either a young person, an old person (who may have some sort of health problem), or a sick person. The intention is positive, but with pity, and it's not the same as "isn't that sweet." > "That student really blessed me out over the grade I gave her." > "Bless me out" has been around quite a long time and is not as new (I don't think) as the "damn his bones" meaning of "bless his heart" (which I've never heard). Jessie Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:09:02 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "Nary?" >From Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > Usage citations run from 1746 to 1974.... > And it is still alive in kicking in some parts of North Alabama. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:12:54 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Subject: Re: "Nary?" In a message dated 97-10-27 10:10:36 EST, jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM writes: << And it is still alive in kicking in some parts of North Alabama. >> amen.. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:09:28 -0500 From: mmcdaniel Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1997 to 24 Oct 1997 <> OK, somebody enlighten me: How does corporate America pickup (and latch onto) Shakespearean terms? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:06:25 -0500 From: mmcdaniel Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 <> I think the term "redneck" does not mean what it used to. The term is somewhat self-deprecatingly applied, and has become more the opposite of "city slicker." There may be no racial overtones. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:23:20 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: "Nary?" At 09:09 AM 10/27/97 -0600, you ("Emerson, Jessie J" ) wrote: >> Usage citations run from 1746 to 1974.... >> >And it is still alive in kicking in some parts of North Alabama. > "Nary a" and/or other ways of saying this ("neer a") are pretty common in Faulkner in books published from the late 20s to the late 50s with a north-Mississippi setting.... Anse Bundren uses it early in As I Lay Dying (1930?) if memory serves; I don't have the book here at the office. Also, the phrase is used jocularly by urban folks. About five years ago one of US talkshow host Tom Snyder's catch-phrases (he used it often enough so I happened to hear it several times without hearing his show often) was (more or less), "There's nary a whisper of chicken in Chicken McNuggets." I believe Snyder is from small-town Wisconsin (?) but he has worked as a broadcaster in urban markets for something like 40 years now. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 22:48:28 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 At 10:06 AM 10/27/97 -0500, MMcDaniel wrote: > I think the term "redneck" does not mean what it used to. The term is > somewhat self-deprecatingly applied, and has become more the opposite > of "city slicker." There may be no racial overtones. Here in Southeast Georgia working class whites (but not middle class and up) have taken "redneck" as their term of choice, so that particular group would enjoy having it as a school-sanctioned term. But more educated whites would be offended by it, since to them it has simply replaced "white trash" as a negative label for uneducated country folk. And certainly no one would ever call a black person a redneck; it's totally exclusionary in that dimension. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 12:06:39 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Thoughts on "whole nuther" >The speaker wants to use "whole" to modify "other" and >"another" to modify "canyon system". I agree that infixing isn't the best explanation for _whole nother_. But I wonder if part of what is going on here might not have something to do with vocalization of the /l/ in _whole_; one must therefore link _a who'_ with _other_ by means of a glottal stop; but the /n/ is (1). already there in _another_ and (2) a more formal morphophonemic variant of the glottal stop for many of us anyway (i.e., those of us who say _a apple_ as an informal variant of _an apple_). In other words, maybe "whole nuther" is a kind of hypercorrection. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:06:50 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Blessings and other southern euphemisms At 09:07 AM 10/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >David A. Johns wrote: >> In my experience (pre-southern) expressions like "bless his heart" >> were used by old ladies when talking about a child who had done >> something good: "He brought me a flower from the garden, bless his >> heart." There was no question that the expression was positive. >> >I believe the expression as used above contains a note of pathos. It's >almost always directed at either a young person, an old person (who may >have some sort of health problem), or a sick person. The intention is >positive, but with pity, and it's not the same as "isn't that sweet." > My wife's second cousin (about 60 y.o.) and aunt (about 90), both from the lower Delmarva peninsula, used this phrase quite a bit in the mid 1990's. The second cousin could rarely get far in a conversation with my wife without using it. But I suspect they used it as an expression of intimacy or familiarity or affection more than pity, given the context. (Admittedly, though, this whole range of ideas does tend to become connected in some ways -- cp. the connotational range of diminutive suffixes in romance langauges, where either familiarity and/or contempt can be connoted). (Possibly relevant to the "using it to a child" idea, I should point out that my wife is many decades younger than her cousin and aunt were, due to late reproduction in my wife's part of the family.) Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:16:04 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: unctuous speech -Reply I agree completely. I don't think I've ever advocated rudeness in all my postings on this subject! My basic purpose all along has been to point out that "Bless you!" is a highly unusual linguistic response, and that its function is ENTIRELY "phatic" (to use the term PHATIC the way it is generally used, regardless of etymology). I'm not emotionally committed to stamping it out--just a dispassionate observor. *****in reply to: Subj: unctuous speech -Reply Date: Mon 27 Oct, 1997 1:26 PM EDT From: Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com X-From: Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com (Mark Mandel) To: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com A good point (and well made!). But "Bless you" is not always unctuous. Sometimes I see it as a normal part of a subculture different from mine, and then we're dealing with an interface problem... to which my preferred approach is that the nuisance (of the -- to me -- misapplied oil) is negligible for the sake of the more general flow of operations. That is, making a fuss about it would cause more disruption than ignoring it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 10:31:41 -0800 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: hello/good-bye I thought 1) the heavy irony elsewhere in my message, combined with 2) the fact that a recent post pointed out that an etymology doesn't mean a word retains its historical meaning forever, and 3) the quotation marks would make it clear that my "'really means'" was also intended ironically. Another lesson in the pitfalls of communication without benefit of intonation. I guess my point was not whether either expression has ANY meaning, but rather that neither has RELIGIOUS meaning today. (And that "good-bye" is an obvious example of another greeting that lacks this religious meaning precisely because it no longer means what it once did.) Peter On Thu, 23 Oct 1997, RonButters wrote: > Peter writes: > >I don't feel any more need to be > >silent in protest when someone says > >"Bless you" (How dare that stranger > >not know my religious beliefs!) than > >I do when someone says "Good-bye," > >that heavily theological expression > >that "really means" "God be with you." > > No, "Good-bye" does not "really mean" "God be with you" (whatever its > history). It "really means" 'this conversation is over' or 'I am leaving'. > "Bless you," on the other hand, has no meaning at all (other than 'I am being > conventionally polite by uttering this prayer formula'). The difference is > that "Good-bye" serves a conversational function, while "Bless you" has no > primary function whatever. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:23:33 -0600 From: Brian James Callarman Subject: Neck hue. I suppose that the term "red neck" carries a different conotation to the people of different regions. Personally, when I read the message about the high school sophomores who made the T-shirts in question, racial discrimination was about the last thing that crossed my mind. I grew up in a very rural part of Central Texas and "red neck" has always been a part of my personal lexicon, but it has never really meant anything more than someone who was a farmer-type. It carries about the same meaning as "ploy-boy" or "country-boy". Maybe there is a little bit of humor associated with the term "red-neck" in my dialect. At any rate, I was interested in asking the high school teacher who wrote the second message on this subject(unfortunately I already deleted it), the one who was strongly opposed to the message of the T-shirts: Where are you from and what kind of conotation does "red neck" carry in your dialect? Brian Callarman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:28:15 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: PC Dictionaries? CNN reports on a movement to either remove the word "Nigger" from Websters Collegiate and other dictionaries or to define it as a word used to "oppress a group of people regardless of race." Though the publisher is resisting, I find this a very worrysome application of political correctness. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:39:29 -0500 From: Jody Subject: Okay....new topic. Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup and usage? Thanks Jody \\|// ( 0-0 ) -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. ====> "Jody" jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Morehead State University .ooo0 ------( )-----0ooo.------ \ ( ( ) \_) ) / (_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 13:57:41 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? See relevant articles in the Washington Post, Boston Globe, and Chicago Trib. The NAACP has taken up the cause and there is groundswell. M-W has put out a press release. Dennis At 02:28 PM 10/27/97 +0000, you wrote: >CNN reports on a movement to either remove the word "Nigger" from Websters >Collegiate and other dictionaries or to define it as a word used to >"oppress a group of people regardless of race." > >Though the publisher is resisting, I find this a very worrysome application >of political correctness. > > >Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net >http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ > > Dennis Baron, Acting Head phone: 217-333-2390 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois email: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 03:27:30 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: Neck hue. At 01:23 PM 10/27/97 -0600, Brian Callarman wrote: > I suppose that the term "red neck" carries a different conotation to the people > of different regions. Personally, when I read the message about the high school > sophomores who made the T-shirts in question, racial discrimination was about the > last thing that crossed my mind. I grew up in a very rural part of Central Texas > and "red neck" has always been a part of my personal lexicon, but it has never > really meant anything more than someone who was a farmer-type. It carries about > the same meaning as "ploy-boy" or "country-boy". Do we have two different concerns being expressed here? Are some people concerned about how those *included* in the terms would feel about it, while others (including me) are concerned about how those who are *excluded* would feel. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:37:03 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: shades of red? I am enjoying and learning from the discussion of sophomore rednecks. Would it make any difference to any of you what the racial composition of the sophomore class of Gibbs H.S. is? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:36:53 -0500 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Here's the NAACP press release: BALTIMORE -- NAACP President & CEO Kweisi Mfume criticized the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary's definition of a "nigger" as a "black person" or a "member of a dark-skinned race" and has announced the NAACP plans to join a national letter-writing campaign to pressure Merriam-Webster to either drop or change the definition. "The NAACP finds it objectionable that Merriam-Webster would use black people as a definition for a racist term," Mfume said. "A 'nigger' is not a black person or a member of a dark-skinned race as defined by Merriam-Webster. It is not a definition of a person's race, but a derogatory word," Mfume added. "There clearly needs to be a correction immediately." President Mfume warned the publishers of Merriam-Webster that if the dictionary is not changed more forceful action will be taken. "We will soon be asking colleges, universities and public school systems to cease purchasing the dictionary if changes are not forthcoming," Mfume said. "It is unacceptable that such a word would be used to define African Americans." Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:52:10 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? > Here's the NAACP press release: I find it striking that in all the press coverage so far-- which, in addition to what Dennis mentioned, includes a piece on the Today show last Monday--hardly anyone had mentioned the fact that _all_ the major college dictionaries include "nigger," with virtually identical treatment. (I think the Wash. Post writer alluded to this.) We haven't gotten any additional mail or calls about the issue. Not that I encourage the NAACP's reaction, but why is Merriam getting singled out? Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:00:57 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? At 04:52 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >We haven't >gotten any additional mail or calls about the issue. Not >that I encourage the NAACP's reaction, but why is Merriam >getting singled out? > >Jesse Sheidlower >Random House Reference > > That's a political-activism question, not a lexicographic one. If you wanted to boycott something, and be practical and effective about it, would you say you were going to boycott every single dictionary at once? Who has that much energy and people-hours (all the letter-writing, calling, picketing, etc.)? And, what would schools and libraries and individuals buy if everything was boycotted? So what you do is you single out one organization very publicly, and by being relentless get it to admit by its actions that you the boycotter are in the right. That precedent will then be quite likely to be followed, without huge public pressure, by other organizations. If M-W says OK to the boycotters, then any organization that refuses will be, a fortiori, even more reprehensible than M-W. I.e., do not ask for whom the bell tolls, etc. etc.... Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:17:43 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Blessings and other southern euphemisms All my life I've heard relatives and family friends of all ages from Ark and Tex use "Bless your heart" for a wide variety of purposes. It could even be an equivalent to the currently "popular" "I feel your pain." When used to or about small children, the adjective "little" often was included. If this adjective is used in the expression addressed to an adult the expression has varying degrees of put-downness in it. The at-the-moment meaning of the term is conveyed more by intonation and accompanying gesture than by words. The words constitute a set phrase, not a command or invocation. Even atheists use it. The term almost always has positive connotations, but can be turned negative or ironic with appropriate intonation and context. Irony far more common than negativity. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:09:15 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? >why is Merriam getting singled out? > >Jesse Sheidlower >Random House Reference > Because bullying tactics work better against single victims. If NAACP attacked all dictionary publishers at the same time, there'd be a chorus of protests, instead of a single "little" voice of a single publisher. The tactic presumes that all other publishers will keep quiet in hopes that their names won't come up. But if NAACP is successful with M-W, RH, AHD, and NW will be next in line. What's striking, but unsurprising, is how the NAACP press release assumes that dictionaries define usage. We need a CHORUS of dictionary editors to go on Larry King Live and talk about descriptive lexicography. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:25:46 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? > > Because bullying tactics work better against single victims. If NAACP > attacked all dictionary publishers at the same time, there'd be a chorus of > protests, instead of a single "little" voice of a single publisher. The > tactic presumes that all other publishers will keep quiet in hopes that > their names won't come up. But if NAACP is successful with M-W, RH, AHD, > and NW will be next in line. But the NAACP seems unaware that there even _are_ other dictionaries. The folklore of this recent controversy has it that a woman opened a dictionary to prove that "nigger" wasn't a word, was stunned to discover that it was in, and hence the Merriam boycott. Also, unlike other objects of boycotts, there are only four dictionaries and they are, for the NAACP's purposes, interchangable. For what it's worth I've spoken to everyone who's asked, including the Today show, in support of Merriam, and I encourage my colleagues at the other houses to do the same. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:28:22 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: Neck hue. Brian, I wrote the second message. I am a high school English teacher in a suburb of Cleveland, Ohio. "Red-neck" is not really used up here, but is taken to mean "poor white trash". In my school putting this expression on a class t-shirt would be at least as inflammatory and exclusionary as a group of black students putting a quote using "nigger" in it and meaning it to apply to the whole class. It just isn't done, and free speech be damned. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 16:40:54 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Actually I did a local interview on one of the tv stations and I mentioned exactly what Jesse said, that all the major dictionaries had the same definitions, and all had appropriate usage warnings and labels. The furor started when an article in the Sept. issue of Emerge magazine, which I haven't seen yet, said that the m-w collegiate defined the word as black person and gave nothing to indicate it was a derogatory usage. This decontextualized reference to the def. then escalated. Dennis _____ Dennis Baron, Acting Head phone: 217-333-2390 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois email: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:43:46 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Neck hue. I know a Black man who grew up in a black town in Oklahoma and refers to himself as a redneck. Seriously (i.e. he's serious). He likes country music and writes songs in country style about Black heroes and sheroes. Vis-a-vis racism, the term is not a complete analogue to the n-word. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:20:12 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. >Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite >often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I >am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a >rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it >originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup >and usage? It's so widespread that I wonder if it came from military usage. Soldiers and officers frequently have the red ass about something, also called RA. There could have been some sort of transfer from RA to the other expression. It seems I've known both terms all my life, but I may have learned them in ROTC or in the Army around 1950. Brown-nosing and brownie points have military origins. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 19:51:26 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. I truly did not think that I would live to see another McCarthy era in this country, but I now believe I am going to. When we say "free speech be damned," we are treading on very dangerous ground, IMNSHO. When we insist that social reality not be reflected in our dictionaries, we are all im trouble, I think. When we insist that all dictionaries carry usage labels and detailed information about context-specific connotations, we have made dictionary-making impossible, I think. Life without dictionaries would be very sad. I surveyed my favorite good ole boys (some of whom are women) at a party last night. (The average person in the group has about 2.3 academic degrees.) Every one of them grew up as a redneck, learned that redneck is not a compliment when applied by someone outside the South, and now claims the word as a symbol of respect for her/his humble origins in the rural South. It is more comforable for men to do this than women, says the group. Bethany, born into a Texas kicker family ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:01:45 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: red neck I disagree, completely and vehemently, with "free speech be damned." To take away free speech, even in such socially sensitive topics as "nigger" and "redneck," is but the first step in denying other rights. And free speech is a constitutional right. Like Bethany I fear that we are close to another McCarthy period (although perhaps not as close as a few years ago). Everytime I listen to my taped interview with John Henry Faulk, I am reminded of how important it is to protect everyone's right to free speech. When he recorded ex-slave interviews and black church services as a graduate student, he learned about his own prejudice. When he tried to convince others to change their minds, he became known as a "trouble maker" because his radical idea that blacks should have the same rights as whites. This was radical stuff in Texas in the 1930s and 1940s. These "radical" ideas were the reason that the FBI opened a file about him. In the 1950s he was one of the blacklisted entertainers because of his "communistic" ideas. As to the terms "nigger" and "redneck," I agree with the recent comment that they are not analogous. Both terms are part of our linguistic and cultural history. Both terms can be and are used with positive meanings *within* by members of particular cultural groups. Both terms can be and are used negatively, even as slurs, by speakers who are not part of the groups that use the terms in a positive way. I suspect that "redneck" can be and is used with positive meaning by farmers in rural Ohio. It certainly is used that way in many areas of the South. I think we have an obligation to teach our students that what is appropriate differs by region and by social/cultural group. These terms are neither absolutely right nor absolutely wrong. Depends on the situation. I grew up in an Oklahoma family with a redneck background, starting as sharecroppers before moving into a railroad status and finally the middle class. Although I didn't always appreciate the fact when I was growing up, my family maintained its ties to and pride in its redneck background. ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:11:43 +0900 From: Dazaifu Tara Subject: Re: "Nary?" > >From Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > > > Usage citations run from 1746 to 1974.... > > > And it is still alive in kicking in some parts of North Alabama. And Southeast Louisiana. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:56:20 -0500 From: "CARRIE M. SIZEMORE" Subject: Re: Neck hue. I feel that the terms "Red Neck" and "Country Boy" are merely titles labeled to people depending on the particular area in which you are looking at. While to someone in a rural area the two terms are interchangeable from the area I am from which is a larger city "Red Neck" is conidered one that is not well groomed and is acts in crude ways. "Country Boy" is labeled on someone who wears Wranglers and cowboy boots. While leabeling people might not be a considerate thing to do it happens no matter what area is involved. No offense should be taken as labels have become almost a standard part of our society. We as a society tend to label people with titles simply because we view them as different than us. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 21:39:00 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS Subject: SALSA 98 Call for Papers CALL FOR PAPERS S A L S A The SYMPOSIUM ABOUT LANGUAGE AND SOCIETY - AUSTIN is pleased to announce its Sixth Annual Meeting to be held APRIL 24-26, 1998 at the University of Texas at Austin. We encourage the submission of abstracts on research that addresses the relationship of language to culture and society. Desired frameworks include but are not limited to: LINGUISTIC ANTHROPOLOGY, SOCIOLINGUISTICS, ETHNOGRAPHY OF COMMUNICATION SPEECH PLAY, VERBAL ART, AND POETICS POLITICAL ECONOMY OF LANGUAGE 1998 KEYNOTE SPEAKERS John Gumperz (University of California, Berkeley) Ofelia Zepeda (University of Arizona) Robert D. King (University of Texas, Austin) Papers delivered at the conference will be published as a special edition of the Texas Linguistic Forum. Speakers will be allowed 20 minutes for presentation and 10 minutes for discussion. Papers will be selected based on the evaluation of an ANONYMOUS written abstract which may not exceed one page (using 10 pt. font or larger). Please submit: AN ABSTRACT, A CARD, AND A SHORT ABSTRACT, namely: FIRST, six (6) copies of the ABSTRACT, on 81/2 x 11 paper, to the address below AND SECOND: a 3x5 CARD with the following information: 1) The title of the paper, 2) Author's name, 3) Author's affiliation, 4) Address and phone number at which the author wishes to be notified AND THIRD: a SHORT 100 WORD ABSTRACT of the paper, on a 3.5" disk, for publication in the conference program. Discs can be either Macintosh or PC, but texts must be word-processed in A) text-only ASCII or B) Microsoft Word (Mac or PC). Please label your disk clearly. See the SALSA web page for additional guidelines: http://www.dla.utexas.edu/depts/anthro/projects/salsa Submission date for abstracts is JANUARY 16, 1998. Late submissions will not be accepted, and we cannot accept papers which are to be published elsewhere. Notification of acceptance or rejection will be sent in mid-February, 1998. Registration fees will be approximately $16 for students and $32 for non-students. Papers must be received by early May, 1998 to be included in the published proceedings. Send all correspondence to: SALSA Department of Linguistics University of Texas at Austin Austin, TX 78712 email: SALSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccwf.cc.utexas.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:04:10 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. At 07:51 PM 10/27/97 -0500, Bethany wrote: > I surveyed my favorite good ole boys (some of whom are women) at a party > last night. (The average person in the group has about 2.3 academic > degrees.) Every one of them grew up as a redneck, learned that redneck is > not a compliment when applied by someone outside the South, and now > claims the word as a symbol of respect for her/his humble origins in > the rural South. It is more comforable for men to do this than women, says > the group. Can "redneck" apply to blacks or Mexicans in that group? It seems to me that the issue is the same one surrounding the inclusion of the Confederate battle flag in the state flags of South Carolina, Georgia, and Mississippi, or the use of that flag or the Li'l Reb mascot for high schools throughout the South. In these contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a captive membership. This issue is not "political correctness", whatever that means this month, but tyranny of the majority. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:20:24 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. At 10:04 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > In these >contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a >captive membership. > >This issue is not "political correctness", whatever that means this >month, but tyranny of the majority. Would the exclusion of these symbols, beloved by the majority, be tyranny of the minority? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:22:02 EST From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1997 to 26 Oct 1997 Re: Rednecks, I recall reading an anthropological study of Redneck culture back in the early part of this decade. Having grown up hearing the term used as a negative label for those southern whites who were "not quite like us," I was surprised by the author's unselfconscious use of the term. For the author, like for many on this list, the word did not have a primarily racial connotation. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:04:02 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. In response to these comments > > In these > >contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a > >captive membership. > > > >This issue is not "political correctness", whatever that means this > >month, but tyranny of the majority. Duane Campbell wrote: > Would the exclusion of these symbols, beloved by the majority, be tyranny > of the minority? No, it wouldn't. In this country a basic purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from oppressive acts by government and the majority. When a symbol the Confederate flag is used by government or majority groups to threaten or silence a minority, that is an oppressive act, a form of tyranny. My apologies to legal experts if I haven't stated this is the most exact legal terms. ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:25:25 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. David Johns writes: In these contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a captive membership. This issue is not "political correctness", whatever that means this month, but tyranny of the majority. [The context was a t-shirt made by students--not every one had to buy one and the minority could have made its own, if in fact there was one.] In reply, Duane Campbell writes: Would the exclusion of these symbols, beloved by the majority, be tyranny of the minority? To which Jeutonne Brewer responds: No, it wouldn't. In this country a basic purpose of the Bill of Rights is to protect the minority from oppressive acts by government and the majority. When a symbol the Confederate flag is used by government or majority groups to threaten or silence a minority, that is an oppressive act, a form of tyranny. Terry (current writer) responds: I think Duane is right here. The issue Jeutonne raises is pertinent though. The question is, when is the use of a symbol "to threaten or silence a minority"? And when is it just an expression of a cultural group? I find the to-do about the Confederate Flag an rather interesting trivial flap. For the flag of the USA govt actually represents a system that has oppressed and harmed far more people than the Confederacy ever did. Just how many people did this government kill in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, etc.? How much exploitation continues today in developing nations, especially in the Pacific Rim, because the US military keeps illegitimate govts in power? Jeutonne's statement would be better written with "American flag" in place of "Confederate Fag." Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:27:58 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, David A. Johns wrote: > It seems to me that the issue is the same one surrounding the > inclusion of the Confederate battle flag in the state flags of South > Carolina, Georgia, and Mississippi, or the use of that flag or the > Li'l Reb mascot for high schools throughout the South. In these > contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a > captive membership. I think this issue has become doubly confused (surprise!). If I read you right, you equate "non-rednecks" with "non-fans-of-the Confederacy." Is that your meaning? And if you do that (please correct me if I am wrong), you probably ALSO equate "rednecks" (whatever your definition is) with "fans-of-the Confederacy." Right? Puhleeze! This is East Tennessee -- Union country! There are very few fans of the Confederacy here! Let us not mix labels any more than we mix metaphors! Bethany, who had never known more than 2-3 people who admitted to being Republicans until she moved to East Tennessee, and who still says that out loud in public ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 23:43:29 EST From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. >It seems to me that the issue is the same one surrounding the >inclusion of the Confederate battle flag in the state flags of South >Carolina, Georgia, and Mississippi, or the use of that flag or the >Li'l Reb mascot for high schools throughout the South. A minor point, which has no bearing upon the validity of your position: the issue in South Carolina has to do with whether the Confederate battle flag should continue to fly, with the US and state flags, over the SC Capitol. The South Carolina flag, fortunately, has not been subjected to the fate of its Georgia counterpart (I am not familiar with the Mississippi flag). It is a strikingly simple and beautiful banner. I suspect the Georgia flag was, too, in in its day. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:46:18 -0600 From: Chris Corcoran Subject: Emerge Article While I think that the organizations representing the political move to strike the word or change the definition don't have things quite right, I also think that regarding this as misguided PCness is also missing a point that shouldn't be ignored. An adult speaker of English who is the curator of the Museum of African American History felt confident that she could tell a young visitor what Nigger meant. At least for the curator's part, it doesn't seem that she thinks that dictionaries dictate usage but rather that she assumed her usage would be recorded in the dictionary. Of course, it happens all the time that I look up words in the dictionary and the definition doesn't seem to match my usage and this occurs for a whole variety of reasons, but in this case I can understand why she felt that this particular entry ought to record the definition that she knows is current in her community. It doesn't seem to me that the actual question is one of whether the dictionary records usage. The question is really one of evidence of usage. In Frederick Mish's response (see below), he says "If you have actual evidence of this, especially in print, we would be very glad to have you pass it along. Please remember that a dictionary cannot assign meanings to words; it can only record the meanings that people actually use." It seems to me that the message is that a lot of people agree that nigger is defined the way Kathryn Williams has defined it, so I think M-W needs to articulate why this is not adequate evidence. After all it is evidence of usage even if it is not the usual sort of evidence that dictionary makers deal with. Chris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Christine Corcoran Linguistics Univ of Chicago Kapu Sehns Noh Kapu Wohd "Hear the meaning, not the words" What follows is what I have seen regarding the Emerge article. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ *Taken from Emerge Magazine September 1997* ********************************************************** "Anyone can be a nigger, A nigger is any ignorant person," Kathryn Williams, curator at the Museum of African American History in Flint, Mich, always explained. So, when a young boy asked recently, "Am I a nigger because I'm Black ? she said, "No child, go look up the word in the dictionary." When the boy returned, he read with disappointment, "1: a black person 2: ...member of any dark-skinned race." Williams was appalled. She hopes to gather enough support from NAACP chapters and Black media to demand a revision. She asks that letters be sent to the: Language Research Service Merriam-Webster Inc. Box 281 Springfield, MA 01102 or call (413) 734-3134 --------- The following is a letter that one reader sent to the Editor in Chief with regards to the definition in Emerge magazine followed by his response. Dear Sir: I am writing in regards to the September 1997 article in "Emerge Magazine" entitled, Definition Petition. It concerns the definition of the word nigger in the 1996 version of the Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. It seems that the secondary definition now includes a reference to "dark-skinned" people, and the third to a socially disadvantage class of persons. I feel this to be inappropriate and strongly suggest that you consider the implications of propagating racial slander. I whole heartedly support Ms. Kathryn William's position, and respectful request a revision. Thank you kindly for your attention to this letter. Subject: THIS IS THEIR RESPONSE Your comments concerning the entry for "nigger" in our Collegiate Dictionary would normally be answered by our editor in chief, Frederick C. Mish. Unfortunately Mr. Mish is currently at home recuperating from a recent accident and does not have access to his e-mail. He has, however, prepared a response to the many questions and comments we've been receiving on this subject since the dictionary entry was mentioned in "Emerge," and I'm happy to send along a copy of that response. Stephen Perrault Senior Editor Merriam-Webster, Incorporated We hope you will forgive us for making this response less individual and more formulaic than our usual correspondence. The volume of mail generated by the brief piece in "Emerge" has forced us to take a general approach. The first point we want to make is that the entry for "nigger" in Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, contains a very important part, a usage paragraph, that the magazine did not show you: usage "Nigger" in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among Blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry. We believe that this constitutes a strong, clear statement about the actual status of this word in usage today. Please bear in mind as you consider these definitions of "nigger" that we are defining the meanings of a word, not describing groups of people. The difference is of crucial importance. We are not saying that if one is a member of a dark-skinned race one should consider oneself a nigger. Such an attitude is totally abhorrent to us! We are saying that some people (sick or misguided people, in all likelihood) currently use the word "nigger" and others (like Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, mentioned in the usage paragraph above, whose writings reflect many of the attitudes of their time) have used it in the past and when the word is used by such people it generally refers to either a black person or a member of some other dark-skinned people. We have often been told by correspondents that at some time "nigger" meant an ignorant or shiftless person of any race. We have no evidence in our files of citations (a citation being simply an example of an English word in context) that "nigger" is used with such a meaning. If you have actual evidence of this, especially in print, we would be very glad to have you pass it along. Please remember that a dictionary cannot assign meanings to words; it can only record the meanings that people actually use. We do not believe that we would be doing anything positive about racism by removing the entries for "nigger" and other offensive words from the dictionary. We cannot make offensive words pass out of existence by leaving them out of the dictionary; we can merely damage the integrity of the dictionary. People do not learn these words from the dictionary, nor do they refrain from using the words until they have checked a dictionary to see whether the words are entered. The dictionary really has little to do with the use of these words except to record it and to tell the truth about its offensiveness. I think too that I should point out that all reputable college-level desk dictionaries published in this country now have entries for some offensive words. Including such entries is not an aberration on our part but is typical of mainstream lexicography in our time. I hope I have persuaded you that we are behaving responsibly as dictionary makers in our handling of words like "nigger," and I thank you for giving me the opportunity to explain. Sincerely yours, Frederick C. Mish Vice President and Editor in Chief ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Oct 1997 to 27 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 There are 69 messages totalling 2043 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. (8) 2. Okay....new topic. (4) 3. PC Dictionaries? (23) 4. Language in the Judicial Process (LJP) 5. Dictionary Attacks 6. Rat's -ss (3) 7. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... (2) 8. Confederate flag, etc., etc. (2) 9. "my bad" (2) 10. PC Dictionaries? et al (2) 11. What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) (3) 12. Teaching the History of the English Language (2) 13. (2) 14. RE>"my bad" (2) 15. Definitions and Dictionaries 16. GA flag (nothing to do with lang) (2) 17. "Full Monty" 18. Blessings and other southern euphemisms 19. The "N" Word 20. ads website address (3) 21. Teaching the History of the English Language -Reply 22. F word (was Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc.) 23. Question re: _The Design Of Language_ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:45:15 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. At 11:27 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, David A. Johns wrote: > > > It seems to me that the issue is the same one surrounding the > > inclusion of the Confederate battle flag in the state flags of South > > Carolina, Georgia, and Mississippi, or the use of that flag or the > > Li'l Reb mascot for high schools throughout the South. In these > > contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a > > captive membership. > > I think this issue has become doubly confused (surprise!). If I read you > right, you equate "non-rednecks" with "non-fans-of-the Confederacy." Is > that your meaning? > > And if you do that (please correct me if I am wrong), you probably ALSO > equate "rednecks" (whatever your definition is) with "fans-of-the > Confederacy." Right? No, not at all. I was considering both that term and the CSA symbols as badges that should be worn voluntarily. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:45:17 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. At 11:43 PM 10/27/97 EST, Julia Cochrane wrote: > A minor point, which has no bearing upon the validity of your position: the > issue in South Carolina has to do with whether the Confederate battle flag > should continue to fly, with the US and state flags, over the SC Capitol. The > South Carolina flag, fortunately, has not been subjected to the fate of its > Georgia counterpart (I am not familiar with the Mississippi flag). It is a > strikingly simple and beautiful banner. I suspect the Georgia flag was, too, in > in its day. Actually, the Georgia flag before 1956 (I hope I have this right) was the Stars and Bars, i.e., the actual national flag of the Confederacy, with the state seal instead of the circle of stars on the blue field. Thus it was very similar to the flag of Texas. In 1956 the bars on the right were replaced by the familiar Confederate battle flag. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 05:45:18 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. At 10:20 PM 10/27/97 +0000, Duane Campbell wrote: > Would the exclusion of these symbols, beloved by the majority, be tyranny > of the minority? Excluding them as items of individual expression or as symbols of a voluntary group would be, in my opinion, with the possible exception of symbols so inflammatory that they constituted "fighting words" in an environment where those who found them offensive were a captive group. Excluding them as majority-imposed symbols of an entire group would not. So a Confederate flag on a pickup truck is fine; over the statehouse or at a college football game isn't, in my opinion. -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:29:53 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. The British use "I don't give a monkey's (fuck or toss) about that." On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Jody wrote: > Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite > often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I > am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a > rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it > originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup > and usage? > > Thanks > Jody > > \\|// > ( 0-0 ) > -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- > Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. > ====> "Jody" > jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > Morehead State University > .ooo0 > ------( )-----0ooo.------ > \ ( ( ) > \_) ) / > (_/ > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 07:49:21 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Eric Pertridge's Usage and Abusage, sold well into the 1980's,has this entry:"nigger belongs only, and then in contempt or fun, to the dark-skinned African races and their descendants in America and the West Indies. Its application to the native people of India is ignorant and offensive." Burchfield describes at length (in Unlocking the English Language,1989, p.113) his problems over citing the word jew used as a verb, as in "to jew down" in the OED Supplement. The answer of course is to list the word, and mark it as derogatory or offensive or whatever. On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Dennis Baron wrote: > Actually I did a local interview on one of the tv stations and I mentioned exactly what Jesse said, that all the major dictionaries had the same definitions, and all had appropriate usage warnings and labels. The furor started when an article in the Sept. issue of Emerge magazine, which I haven't seen yet, said that the m-w collegiate defined the word as black person and gave nothing to indicate it was a derogatory usage. This decontextualized reference to the def. then escalated. > > > Dennis > > _____ > > Dennis Baron, Acting Head phone: 217-333-2390 > > Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 > > University of Illinois email: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu > > 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron > > Urbana, IL 61801 > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:15:57 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Jesse, I think Merriam Webster is singled out because it's "Webster" and that means "dictionary" and or even "The Dictionary"--as in "go check your Webster's" (= go check your dictionary). beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:16:18 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Language in the Judicial Process (LJP) The new ethernet connections have been installed, and new server hardware and software for LJP, the electronic journal of language and law, have arrived and will be installed today. LJP will be down temporarily as the transition is made, possibly only a few hours tonight, possibly a bit longer. The next issue will contain abstracts of all papers presented at the Third Biannual meeting of the International Conference of Forensic Linguists (IAFL). Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English/Chair, Ling. Prog. 301/1117 McClung Tower University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA 423-974-6965, 423-974-6926 (FAX) EMAIL: Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: [9-12/97: Professorial Lecturer/Dep't of Linguistics/470 ICC/ Georgetown U./ Washington, D.C. 20057/202-687-5956, 202-687-5712 (FAX)] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:18:57 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: Dictionary Attacks There are at least 2 ways to deal with dictionary definitions that one considers wrong or iandequate. One is to attack/boycott. The other is to supply additional information (information, not argument) to the dictionary-maker so that improved definitions might be published. Right? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:45:38 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Rat's -ss On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Jody (Joseph Streible, Jr.) (jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu) wrote: >> Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite >> often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I >> am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a >> rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it >> originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup >> and usage? >> I don't see it in the dictionaries (including a number of relatively recent slang dictionaries) that I have lying around right here -- but I *have* heard it, from people I know, and in fact have heard it on the radio on bantering vernacular talk-shows where there is a premium on saying things that sound somewhat shocking when said in the public forum of a radio progam, but are not FCC-proscribed (i.e., you can say "ass" on the radio, and you can certainly say "rat's"). It's not something I've heard gentler or older people use -- it seems to be a "tough" expression where the user is trying to sound cynical. I first heard it in the mid-1980's. There is an older expression "in a pig's ass/arse" (sometimes euphemized as "in a pig's eye") that goes back to the first half of the 20th century, and is used as a dismissive response to a suggestion or idea. This phrase reportedly came originally from a line, which later became a catch-phrase, in an old bawdy song whose narrative line we the uninformed can only wonder at. Maybe (???) "I don't give a rat's ass" is simply a variant or intensification (?) of the harsh dismissiveness of the older animal's-ass phrase??? (If so, research needed, unless someone turns up a written treatment.) Maybe there's a military tie-in, as was suggested on the list last night -- dictionaries of slang and the like list a lot of miltary expressions that contain "rat." Maybe unrelated (???) is the British expression "rat-arsed," meaning really drunk, which goes back to around 1980 or so. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:55:58 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? DARE has evidence, both written and oral, of the use of "nigger" to refer to "any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of skin color." It is used especially frequently by Black speakers. See sense B2b. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:01:57 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Rat's -ss > >> Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite > >> often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I > >> am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a > >> rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it > >> originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup > >> and usage? We've collected a number of examples of _rat's ass_ meaning broadly 'a damn; (used broadly as a symbol of worthlessness)', usually in negative phrases of the sort _don't give a rat's ass._ Our earliest example is 1952, although we have a number of examples from the 1950s in military use all referring to World War II; it's not unlikely that when we get around to the R's we'll find something earlier. We have consistent examples since the 1950s, but I've observed a large increase in the currency of the phrase in the 1990s; I've found examples even in mainstream sources such as the Washington Post or the L.A. Times (here euphemized to "rat's _toches._" Jesse Sheidlower Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:41:00 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... On the first item,"to not give a rat's ass" is one of a myriad--indeed, of an open class--of expressions designating minimal, worthless, negligible, or otherwise unworthy items that appear in such negative polarity contexts. These have been catalogued since the 19th century (Pott 1857 invoked the formula 'nicht einmal das', or 'not even a...' to describe how these negative reinforcers work) and involve domains from the culinary (not worth a crumb, an egg, a fava, a fig [possibly some sexual metaphor here, as we've discussed a while back?], a garlic) and the monetary (not a sou, a dinero, a red cent, a plugged nickel) to the body part (not a hair, a mosquito, a cat's tail, a rat's ass) to the linguistic (not an accent, a tittle or jot). (Some of these are literal translations from the Sanskrit, Latin, Old Spanish, or Basque.) Practices differ cross-linguistically--in Dutch, items of sexual and especially excretory reference are especially frequent as reinforcers--but in general any entity whose extension is small or inconsequential enough to count as atomic in the appropriate context can be used in this frame. Re "nigger": I find it hard to improve on Mish's response. Re "redneck": Some asymmetry here with "nigger". The jokes about "You might be a redneck if...", popularized but I think not invented by Jeff Foxworthy, couldn't have a similar jocular-but-not-terribly-loaded parallel with "nigger", "kike", etc. There's also the whole issue of the reclamation of derogatory terms WITHIN the derogated group (Niggahs with attitude, "queer", and so on vs. their use by out-groupers. And while the free-speech vs. right-not-to-be-offended issue is complex-- consider the "right" to post swastikas, and consider that right in the context of a resurgent Nazi-like movement-- I don't think bandying about the "PC" label is particularly enlightening. And finally, when Terry Irons writes: >I find the to-do about the Confederate Flag an rather interesting trivial >flap. For the flag of the USA govt actually represents a system that has >oppressed and harmed far more people than the Confederacy ever did. Just >how many people did this government kill in Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Vietnam, >etc.? How much exploitation continues today in developing >nations, especially in the Pacific Rim, because the US military >keeps illegitimate govts in power? Jeutonne's statement would be >better written with "American flag" in place of "Confederate Fag." I'd be more careful how you bandy about those slurs! :) Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:08:35 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? I do think that it is important to keep in mind that there are core meanings and peripheral meanings for most words. My intuitions tell me that, in its core meaning, the derogatory word NIGGER is applied to darkskinned people. Here is a little thought experiment: Suppose a blind person walks into a room full of strangers and says, "Are there any niggers here?" Would anyone think that the blind person meant 'any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of skin color'? *****in reply to: DARE has evidence, both written and oral, of the use of "nigger" to refer to "any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of skin color." It is used especially frequently by Black speakers. See sense B2b. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 10:10:41 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? > DARE has evidence, both written and oral, of the use of "nigger" to refer to > "any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of > skin color." It is used especially frequently by Black speakers. See sense > B2b. I find this particular issue one of the more interesting ones in the discussion. We also have this sense in RHHDAS (sense 3, "Now esp. Black E. a reprehensible person (of any race); lout; (used as a coarse term of contempt)."), with written and oral citations. However, one could make the claim that few or none of these examples truly represent this sense in free use. Many of our examples, and those in DARE, consist of black speakers simply denying that "nigger" means 'a black person' and claiming that it means 'a reprehensible person'. Even the examples using it in context--for instance, Chris Rock's now famous "Black people vs. niggers" sketch ("There's a civil war going on between black people and niggers....You can't go to the movies because there's niggers shooting at the screen")--do not use it in a race-neutral manner. While I think this sense probably does exist, it is nowhere near as common as it is claimed to be. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:24:35 -0600 From: Brian James Callarman Subject: Confederate flag, etc., etc. I understand that the Confederate flag is not a cultural symbol that everyone wants to identify themselves with. My question, however, is this: don't you think that maybe it's a little harsh to call the inclusion of a flag "tyranny". Surely that is strong language for simply flying a flag as a cultural symbol. Here is a little axiom about "political correctness" (and I'm not intending to point any fingures); when taken to an extreme it can be used as something of a cultural sterilization agent. Now, I'm all for cultural diversity and it seems that United States culture is very diverse and becoming more so by the minute, but it is important to realize, within reason, that every culture is inherantly going to have aspects that are offensive to other cultures. It is just impractical and, I would even go so far as to say, impossible to have a completely offense-free society. If you really want something to get upset about, and this is one thing that I am very surprised that no one has jumped on in recent years with huge "political correctness" and culturaly diversity push. How about the professional baseball team called the Atlanta Braves or, far worse than that, the Washington Redskins. I understand that this is a touchy subject, but I just have to set forth this scenario: Wouldn't that be about like having a team called the "Georgia Niggers" (I mean absolutly no offense by this to ANYONE. I'm using this completely hypothetically to the end of making a point, so, if I have offended anyone, I apologize in advance.) Brian Callarman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:52:42 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. > At 11:27 PM 10/27/97 -0500, you wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, David A. Johns wrote: > > > > > It seems to me that the issue is the same one surrounding the > > > inclusion of the Confederate battle flag in the state flags of > South > > > Carolina, Georgia, and Mississippi, or the use of that flag or > the > > > Li'l Reb mascot for high schools throughout the South. In these > > > contexts, the non-rednecks or non-fans-of-the-Confederacy are a > > > captive membership. > > > > I think this issue has become doubly confused (surprise!). If I > read you > > right, you equate "non-rednecks" with "non-fans-of-the > Confederacy." Is > > that your meaning? > > > > And if you do that (please correct me if I am wrong), you probably > ALSO > > equate "rednecks" (whatever your definition is) with "fans-of-the > > Confederacy." Right? > > No, not at all. I was considering both that term and the CSA symbols > as badges that should be worn voluntarily. > I agree with Bethany, we have strayed into another land here. But this is something that does effect me personally. My daughter's school wants to drop the Rebel flag as it's symbol. The school's nickname is the Rebels. The vast majority of the kids, and there are Asians and Blacks in this number, resent this. They don't see the flag as a sign of racism, they see it as something that represents someone who is a rebel. If any of the adults who were pushing this would read up on their history, they would know that there were eleven different flags used by the Confederacy during the war. The current one is the one which was popularized. I daresay if we had t-shirts printed up with one of the other, lesser known flags on it, no one would say a word. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:07:46 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. I've heard "rusty fuck" in the same sense. I don't know its origin. On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Robert Ness wrote: > The British use "I don't give a monkey's (fuck or toss) about that." On > Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Jody wrote: > > > Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite > > often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I > > am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a > > rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it > > originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup > > and usage? > > > > Thanks > > Jody > > > > \\|// > > ( 0-0 ) > > -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- > > Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. > > ====> "Jody" > > jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > > Morehead State University > > .ooo0 > > ------( )-----0ooo.------ > > \ ( ( ) > > \_) ) / > > (_/ > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:37:12 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? I am a Black man, not African-American, and the use of the word "Nigger" or shall I say the definition of the word, in the Merriam dictionary greatly offends me. Who gave them the right to define any one person or race. Is the publisher of Merriam God. Nope. So what gives him the right to call me a "Nigger." If he called all white people "Peckerwoods" then all white people would most likely be offended. Being labeled is not a good thing. I cant see how someone can support Merriam's definition. Personally, since the dictionary wants to define black people as "Niggers" then the dictionary should include all derogatory statements about all races. Steve Nolden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:35:05 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: "my bad" A new topic: I just got a call from Bob Greene of the Chicago Sun-Times. He's trying to pin down the origin of the above, and all I was able to tell him was that I've heard a sportscaster on ESPN's SportsCenter (a nightly highlight show) use it in commenting on a fumble, an error, a missed easy shot, or the like. The sense there is something like "my fault". I have the impression it originates in B.E.V. or AAVE, but that's just an impression, and Greene commented that he was struck by an experience of bumping into someone--a middle-aged, middle-class white man--in the Atlanta airport and having that fellow apologize by saying not "Excuse me" or "Sorry" but, yes, "My bad". No irony here of the sort I detect with the sportscaster. So am I wrong about the AAVE impression? Or did it start in that dialect group and spread at least in Atlanta (or more generally in the Southeast)? I've certainly never come across it in daily life myself, and unfortunately it seems to be impossible to search Nexis without being overwhelmed by irrelevant cites of [my [bad N]], where N = luck, tooth, judgment,.... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:57:25 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Steve Nolden writes: > If he [sc. the Publisher of MW] called all white people "Peckerwoods" > then all white people would most likely be offended. Being labeled is > not a good thing. I cant see how someone can support Merriam's > definition. Personally, since the dictionary wants to define black > people as "Niggers" then the dictionary should include all derogatory > statements about all races. The dictionary _does_ include derogatory terms referring to other racial or ethnic groups, a point also not often mentioned in this discussion. Merriam includes _peckerwood_ with the definition "a rural white Southerner--often used disparagingly." Most of the college dictionaries define this, and also include such words as "kike," "wop," "mick," and others. No one is getting singled out. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:59:29 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. The point about the confederate flag is that even though people say it is harmless. It was flown during a time when Black people were oppressed and the South fought to further that oppression. Now, to see that same flag flying of all places in a football game(I am from MS, speaking on OLE Miss) is appalling. Considering that at least 80% to 90% of its football team is Black. If Black people opressed white people in such a manner and then had the African flag flying high, dont tell me there would not be any resentment. It's sickening to see that damn flag. Hell, I might as well start shuffling my feet and say suh! as long as that damn flag is flying. Were not going to talk about personal expression using that damn thing. That's another topic. Steve Nolden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:55:44 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? At 10:10 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: >Rock's now famous "Black people vs. niggers" sketch Here is an aspect that I have not seen discussed. I recall in the early sixties (in a military unit comprised of Blacks and whites with education levels above the Army norm) that the Blacks used "the 'N' word" in exactly the way rasist whites did, i.e., meaning a reprehensible Black person. Today the word seems to be used more casually by certain Blacks without the opprobrium. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:47:46 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... At 09:41 AM 10/28/97 EDT, you wrote: > And while the free-speech vs. right-not-to-be-offended issue is complex-- I find it interesting that this is tossed out so casually. Do we really have a "right" not to be offended and whence does it come? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:04:56 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? There is a "singled out" effect here because of the history of the word "Nigger" Did somebody hit your forefathers on the back with a whip and say "pick that cotton you damn peckerwood" I dont think so. Due to the history and present use of the word, I think it is important that it be redefined. Since there is a definition of other races in the dictionary, send one that is more derogatory. I have to go to class, but like the terminator, I'll be back. Steve Nolden ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:09:30 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Subject: Re: Confederate flag, etc., etc. I think the flag is a symbol of southern pride and I beleive in pride even when it is misplaced. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:21:23 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. My home town was the last capital of the Confederate States. They were restoring the Capital building and wanted the flag to fly there. It was not allowed even on the museum. If it is not allowed there should it be allowed anywhere? Nope. JOhnnie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:21:44 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? In a message dated 97-10-28 12:07:13 EST, sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU writes: << There is a "singled out" effect here because of the history of the word "Nigger" Did somebody hit your forefathers on the back with a whip and say "pick that cotton you damn peckerwood" I dont think so. >> I believe we all feel or should feel this word nigger is not to be used anywhere and it be okay. I was at the play ground the other day with my 6 and 8 year old girls. There were tons of children playing and having a ball. There was one extremely little boy who I believe must have been mixed race or either very light black. There was a family there with about five kids and the parents as well as the kids were playing tag. This little boy ( about two) was chasing his ball and went up and sat beside one of the kids in this large family. This kid shouted to his brother that they could not play on that side because of the nigger. I was amazed... I just stood there and watched the large family go and stand by there truck and thought that is where they should stay. I could not see why in the world any parent would want to teach these kids to hate someone because of his skin. I know of course that ignorance is the reason but I was still hurt for that mom and child. No one should use that word. Also in the classroom I have gotten after many a teenage Black boy for calling his friend "Nigger' I have explained that he is degrading himself and his friend whether he thinks so or not. the reply has been many times that "He's my homey." I have explained it does not matter who he is .. it will nto be doen around me. I do not want to be called white trash even by the best of friends playing. I find no amusement in the ord. It is degrading and humilating. Johnnie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:29:05 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? At 11:37 AM 10/28/97 -0500, Steve Nolden wrote: > I am a Black man, not African-American, and the use of the word "Nigger" > or shall I say the definition of the word, in the Merriam dictionary > greatly offends me. Who gave them the right to define any one person or > race. Is the publisher of Merriam God. Nope. So what gives him the > right to call me a "Nigger." If he called all white people "Peckerwoods" > then all white people would most likely be offended. Being labeled is > not a good thing. I cant see how someone can support Merriam's > definition. Personally, since the dictionary wants to define black > people as "Niggers" then the dictionary should include all derogatory > statements about all races. >From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, p. 19a (Explanatory Notes), Order of Senses: "The order of senses within an entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in English is entered first." >From the definition of "nigger": "1: a black person -- usu. taken to be offensive 2: a member of any dark-skinned race -- usu. taken to be offensive 3: a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons _usage_ _Nigger_ in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry." Don't you get the impression that whoever wrote the NAACP press release didn't actually look in the dictionary he or she was condemning? -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:38:38 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? et al This is just a question about the list and not a complaint or admonition: Does this list include discussion of political correctness, or only discussion of language and how it is actually used (rather than how it should be used). A note regarding "rat's ass:" I was just on the phone with a customer who gave me her life story, and as I was hanging up the phone, the phrase "I don't give a flying fuck" went through my head. Thanks, Jessie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:16:26 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) The reporter who interviewed me about the n word for the local TV station is black and said she was surprised to see all this discussion, since when she was growing up her working definition of the word was 'an uneducated person' and it had no racial connotation. She was surprised when I told her it was connected to Negro. I thought this was very interesting. Jesse, and others: is there any additional confirmation for such a use of the word in the African American community? Dennis Dennis Baron, Acting Head phone: 217-333-2390 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois email: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 09:43:15 -0800 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: > I am a Black man, not African-American, and the use of the word "Nigger" > or shall I say the definition of the word, in the Merriam dictionary > greatly offends me. Who gave them the right to define any one person or > race. Is the publisher of Merriam God. Nope. Of course Merriam-Webster is not God: this is precisely the reason why it cannot define a word in whatever way it pleases. God might change language; a dictionary cannot. A dictionary records language; it has no power to determine or change it. So what gives him the > right to call me a "Nigger." M-W is not "calling" anyone anything. It is truthfully recording the (unfortunate) fact that some speakers of American English do in fact use the term to refer to black people in a derogatory manner. Pretending otherwise would be dishonest and would not change the fact that the usage exists. Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:54:01 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? At 12:29 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >>From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, p. 19a >(Explanatory Notes), Order of Senses: "The order of senses within an >entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in >English is entered first." > >>From the definition of "nigger": "1: a black person -- usu. taken to >be offensive 2: a member of any dark-skinned race -- usu. taken to >be offensive 3: a member of a socially disadvantaged class of >persons the people who feel left out of the political process -- Ron Dellums> > _usage_ _Nigger_ in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such >writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles >Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and >inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is >not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it >is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry." > I suspect the problem is that when a group of people has been historically belittled, some of its members will sometimes come to believe that belittling is taking place even when, from a more dispassionate perspective, belittling is not taking place. Sure, racist ideas overt and subtle (of many groups against many groups, actually) absolutely still exist. But the lexicographers' argument on this list has been that the MW dictionary entry in question is not a party to that. >Don't you get the impression that whoever wrote the NAACP press >release didn't actually look in the dictionary he or she was >condemning? > Well, this is part of a whole array of modern-day folklore where an accusation that racism is taking place in goverment or business or other institutions resonates so much with people on an a priori level (see my first para. just above) that it is accepted on the face of it, and repeated till it is widely known and believed, without anyone feeling a need to check into the actual fabric of the situation. There was a very big rumor a few years ago that the old three-master ship (or whatever it is) on the Snapple bottle was a picture of a slave ship. The small-type kosher K on the label was then taken as a subtle Klan symbol. For that and maybe other reasons, all the Snapple flavored ice-teas, which were *very* popular among all groups of younger people in New York City at the time, lost tremendous market share for several years. Snapple was eventually sold to a private firm by the conglomerate that had just bought it maybe four years earlier. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:23:42 -0500 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Jody wrote: > Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite > often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I > am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a > rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it > originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup > and usage? > > Thanks > Jody ii> > \\|// > ( 0-0 ) > -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- > Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. > ====> "Jody" > jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > Morehead State University > .ooo0 > ------( )-----0ooo.------ > \ ( ( ) > \_) ) / > (_/ > Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:15:09 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? I'm much less worried about dictionaries' inadequate or inexact definitions of words (though M-W's defs of the n-word seem exemplary) than I am about everyday use of them--witness the boy on the playground first labeling and then shunning another child. I'm also concerned about people who do not seem to realize that "nigger" is "perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English" (M-W, 10th ed.). A non-American T.A. in our introductory linguistics program may (perhaps) be excused for not knowing the word's cultural history ("After all, it's just a word"); the rest of us cannot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:26:55 -0500 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Jody wrote: JODY- i was wondering how long it would be until you brought up rat's ass. sorry about the falty message sent before. I have heard the term rat's ass quite frequently in my hometown, and I can honestly say, I have no idea of its importance. I suppose just another slang term. If someone were to reply to me that they didn't give a rat's ass what I was saying, I would have to be offended with their implication that my statement was as ugly and unimportant as a rat's ass-pretty offending. Carrie > Class discussion has lead to a question about a specific term used quite > often in the English language (at least, the English language to which I > am accustomed to listening).....the term "rat's ass" (i.e. I don't give a > rat's ass what he says!) What does it really mean? And where does it > originate? Also, are there any other terms that are similar in makeup > and usage? > > Thanks > Jody > > \\|// > ( 0-0 ) > -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- > Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. > ====> "Jody" > jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > Morehead State University > .ooo0 > ------( )-----0ooo.------ > \ ( ( ) > \_) ) / > (_/ > Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:31:15 -0500 From: CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Evan Morris wrote: I am personally outraged by the fact that a stereotypical label has been placed in a dictionary as a meaningful word. Does white trash exist in the dictionary?--same thing! I hate racism adn the fact that it exists but to put it in the dictionary as a word.No! It is a damn stereotype. Does anyone agree? Is anyone else upset with this? Carrie > Here's the NAACP press release: > > > BALTIMORE -- NAACP President & CEO Kweisi Mfume criticized the > Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary's definition of a "nigger" as a > "black person" or a "member of a dark-skinned race" and has announced the > NAACP plans to join a national letter-writing campaign to pressure > Merriam-Webster to either drop or change the definition. > "The NAACP finds it objectionable that Merriam-Webster would use black > people as a definition for a racist term," Mfume said. "A 'nigger' is not a > black person or a member of a dark-skinned race as defined by > Merriam-Webster. It is not a definition of a person's race, but a derogatory > word," Mfume added. "There clearly needs to be a correction immediately." > President Mfume warned the publishers of Merriam-Webster that if the > dictionary is not changed more forceful action will be taken. > "We will soon be asking colleges, universities and public school systems to > cease purchasing the dictionary if changes are not forthcoming," Mfume said. > "It is unacceptable that such a word would be used to define African > Americans." > > Evan Morris > words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com > Carrie Susann Addington SCHOOL: HOME: 403 E. Main St. 2100 W. Sun Valley Pkwy. Morehead, KY 40351 Muncie, IN 47303 (606)780-0781 (317)747-0809 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:35:11 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Teaching the History of the English Language The University of Michigan Press is considering a co-publication agreement with Edinburgh University Press on a reader called "Everyday English, 1500-1700." Selections are arranged thematically (e. g., "abuse," "accounts,") and there is useful apparatus. All extracts show original spelling and are drawn from ms. sources in England, Scotland, and the United States. There is much sociolinguistic detail and students can form hypotheses on Y/Th- pronouns and social class (for instance). The U-M Press wonders if this book would be adoped by teachers of the history of English. If you believe there is a GOOD CHANCE that you would adopt such a reader as a course book, please let me know. Richard W. Bailey [Note: Please reply directly to Professor Bailey. He's not a subscriber of ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:42:23 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Just saw "The Full Monte." Wonderful film. But what is the origin of the term? My desktop Partridge is no help. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:50:28 -0500 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>"my bad" I participated in a discussion of "my bad" a while back. The group of use seemed to believe that it originated in basketball. In high school leagues it is a courtesy (perhaps a rule?) for a player to volunteer him- or herself as having committed the foul by raising a hand. This is often accompanied by the phrase "my bad." Anecdotal, unprovable as source, but possible. Also: Compare with "I go" in volleyball, shorthand for "I got it." Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 11:04:35 -0800 From: Gail Stygall Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Maybe the lexicographers among us can answer this question. Why are the racial and ethnic epithets found in all the dicitionaires defined as a *person* rather than as *racial and ethnic epithets*? Isn't that what's being objected to here? Is there some semantic rule that requires the definition to be person rather than epithet? Gail ______________________________________________________________________________ Gail Stygall (206) 543-2190 Director, Expository Writing Program Editor, _CCCC Bibliography of Composition and Rhetoric_ English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330 ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:02:44 -0500 From: Grant Barrett Subject: Definitions and Dictionaries I get the feeling that some of the recent messages are from the same person trolling for flames by using different email accounts, but I'll put my two cents in anyway: Dictionaries should include all words in the language and all of their definitions. Thank you. [This conversation reminds me of a certain strain of letters-to-the-editor in which the author quotes a dictionary as a definitive source in order to prove a point. What a hoot.] Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 12:49:03 CST From: Ellen Johnson Subject: GA flag (nothing to do with lang) This has nothing to do with dialect, so you may want to use your delete key. As David Johns said, the current Georgia flag, with the Confederate battle flag incorporated, was adopted in the 1950s. The rest of the story is that this new flag design was created by a legislature expressing its rebellion against the federal government, which had required desegregation of schools in the 1954 Supreme Court decision, Brown v. Board of Education. The climate of the times is described by Ralph McGill in one of the best books about the South I have ever read (UGA Press), The South and the Southerner: "Never," was what they said in the Deep South, red of face, arms flailing, or fists clenched, pounding on tables or lecterns. "No Communist-led court would ever succeed in putting niggers in the schools." So the Georgia flag, at least, is not a venerable tradition, but a blatantly racist statement. Many public schools (among others) no longer will fly the state flag. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:15:24 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: "Full Monty" > Just saw "The Full Monte." Wonderful film. But what is the origin of the > term? My desktop Partridge is no help. It's a British expression meaning broadly 'everything possible; the whole nine yards; the whole enchilada'. The origin is uncertain; I think citations have been found back to the mid- 1980s. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:23:58 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Gail Stygall writes: > Maybe the lexicographers among us can answer this question. Why are the > racial and ethnic epithets found in all the dicitionaires defined as a > *person* rather than as *racial and ethnic epithets*? Isn't that what's > being objected to here? Is there some semantic rule that requires the > definition to be person rather than epithet? A word is defined in terms of what it _means._ It is not defined in terms of the class of word it is. Definitions should be substitutable, also. Racial or ethnic epithets may be epithets, but they are not used to mean 'epithet', they are used to mean '(person of whatever racial or ethnic group is under discussion)'. The fact that they _are_ epithets doesn't really affect this; they're also nouns, for instance, but you don't define, say, _table_ as 'a noun applied to pieces of furniture having a flat slab on top...'. One could mention the epithet-ness of a word in a note, if you wanted: "kike n. a Jewish person--used as an anti-Semitic epithet" or something like that. Current dictionaries generally use terms such as "offensive," "contemptuous," or the like. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:24:22 -0500 From: jerry miller Subject: Re: GA flag (nothing to do with lang) Interesting background on the stars and bars in Georgia -- but it raised a tangential question for me (again, not necessarily related to dialect) about the rise of the "NEVER" as a slogan for the anti-integrationists. In the North (well, Indiana, whose attitudes sometimes make it difficult to differentiate), I recall the "NOW" buttons (as in "Integration Now" or "End Segregation Now") appearing first, followed by the reactionary "NEVER" buttons (I saw an off-duty court bailiff wearing one -- the first time I'd seen one, and I assumed it was his response to all the "NOW" buttons and bumper stickers). Which came first, NOW or NEVER? Jerry Miller At 12:49 PM 10/28/97 CST, you wrote: > This has nothing to do with dialect, so you may want to use your > delete key. > > As David Johns said, the current Georgia flag, with the Confederate > battle flag incorporated, was adopted in the 1950s. The rest of the > story is that this new flag design was created by a legislature > expressing its rebellion against the federal government, which had > required desegregation of schools in the 1954 Supreme Court decision, > Brown v. Board of Education. > > The climate of the times is described by Ralph McGill in one of the > best books about the South I have ever read (UGA Press), The South and > the Southerner: > "Never," was what they said in the Deep South, red of face, arms > flailing, or fists clenched, pounding on tables or lecterns. "No > Communist-led court would ever succeed in putting niggers in the > schools." > > So the Georgia flag, at least, is not a venerable tradition, but a > blatantly racist statement. Many public schools (among others) no > longer will fly the state flag. > > Ellen > ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu > http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:35:37 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) > The reporter who interviewed me about the n word for the local TV station is black and said she was surprised to see all this discussion, since when she was growing up her working definition of the word was 'an uneducated person' and it had no racial connotation. She was surprised when I told her it was connected to Negro. I thought this was very interesting. Jesse, and others: is there any additional confirmation for such a use of the word in the African American community? I alluded to this in a previous message. The short answer is that it depends on how you interpret the evidence. Both DARE and HDAS have an entry for this sense with many citations. However, most of the citations consist of declarations from black people that _nigger_ has no racial sense but instead refers to reprehensible people of any race. A prominent early example of such a declaration: 1942 Z.N. Hurston _Dust Tracks_ 25: He called me Snidlits, explaining that Zora was a hell of a name...."Snidlits, don't be a nigger*," he would say...."Niggers lie and lie.".... *[footnote from Hurston:] The word "nigger" used in this sense does not mean race. It means a weak, contemptible person of any race. Most examples are similar; we've quoted from many letters written to the Random House dictionary department with such claims. There are a small number of examples where it could be interpreted in the sense claimed, but it's not entirely clear that these examples have no racial connotation--cf. the Chris Rock routine I quoted in my last message. (Oh, an ambiguous example that in HDAS we placed under the relatively neutral "fellow; person" sense that may actually belong in the "reprehensible person" sense: a1994 "Queen Latifah," in C. Major _Juba to Jive_ 320: Those niggers [sc. the U.S. government] don't know what the fuck they [sic] doing.) I would say that there is certainly a very strong belief in the African-American community that this is what the word really means, but whether it's actually used this way is doubtful. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:05:41 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Blessings and other southern euphemisms I have a student who wants to work on the history of the origin of "Bless you" for sneezing. Any ideas on bibliographic help? Where to start? Thanks, Tim Frazer On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: > At 09:07 AM 10/27/97 -0600, you wrote: > >David A. Johns wrote: > >> In my experience (pre-southern) expressions like "bless his heart" > >> were used by old ladies when talking about a child who had done > >> something good: "He brought me a flower from the garden, bless his > >> heart." There was no question that the expression was positive. > >> > >I believe the expression as used above contains a note of pathos. It's > >almost always directed at either a young person, an old person (who may > >have some sort of health problem), or a sick person. The intention is > >positive, but with pity, and it's not the same as "isn't that sweet." > > > > My wife's second cousin (about 60 y.o.) and aunt (about 90), both from the > lower Delmarva peninsula, used this phrase quite a bit in the mid 1990's. > The second cousin could rarely get far in a conversation with my wife > without using it. But I suspect they used it as an expression of intimacy or > familiarity or affection more than pity, given the context. (Admittedly, > though, this whole range of ideas does tend to become connected in some ways > -- cp. the connotational range of diminutive suffixes in romance langauges, > where either familiarity and/or contempt can be connoted). > > (Possibly relevant to the "using it to a child" idea, I should point out > that my wife is many decades younger than her cousin and aunt were, due to > late reproduction in my wife's part of the family.) > > Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 14:54:37 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: Teaching the History of the English Language Yes, where do I sign? Dennis At 01:35 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >The University of Michigan Press is considering a co-publication agreement >with Edinburgh University Press on a reader called "Everyday English, >1500-1700." > >Selections are arranged thematically (e. g., "abuse," "accounts,") and >there is useful apparatus. All extracts show original spelling and are >drawn from ms. sources in England, Scotland, and the United States. There >is much sociolinguistic detail and students can form hypotheses on Y/Th- >pronouns and social class (for instance). > >The U-M Press wonders if this book would be adoped by teachers of the >history of English. If you believe there is a GOOD CHANCE that you would >adopt such a reader as a course book, please let me know. > > Richard W. Bailey >< > >[Note: Please reply directly to Professor Bailey. He's not a subscriber of >ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf] > > Dennis Baron, Acting Head phone: 217-333-2390 Department of English fax: 217-333-4321 University of Illinois email: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:19:54 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. Terry, I don't think you have to go to Asia for examples. The documentaries I have seen and the the books I have read point out that our own native American population could be offended by the American flag. However, that is a whole nuther issue. It doesn't change the issue about the Confederate flag. It would be interesting to know how people actually talk about these points. It would be useful to know more than what a sound bite on the evening news provides. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 13:47:04 -0800 From: Gail Stygall Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? Jesse: You miss my point. There is nothing -- other than some very human decisions made by people like you -- that demands that a dictionary define by what you call what it "means." I don't think I or many other people would have any trouble figuring out what it "means" by starting with epithet. The Harper Collins CoBuild, for example, begins the definition of "nigger" with "a word . . ." Semantics remains the most slippery of the linguistic levels and yet you make it sound as if what it "means" is utterly transparent. Gail ______________________________________________________________________________ Gail Stygall (206) 543-2190 Director, Expository Writing Program Editor, _CCCC Bibliography of Composition and Rhetoric_ English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330 ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:48:35 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON wrote: > I am personally outraged by the fact that a stereotypical label has > been placed in a dictionary as a meaningful word. Does white trash > exist in the dictionary?--same thing! I hate racism adn the fact that it > exists but to put it in the dictionary as a word.No! It is a damn > stereotype. Does anyone agree? Is anyone else upset with this? > Carrie Unfortunately, these words and phrases are full of meanings. That's the problem being discussed on the list. A legitimate dictionary has an obligation to include these words (and many others). Dictionaries report on/record usage; they don't dictate usage. Do you remember the old claim. Ain't ain't a word because ain't ain't in the dictionary? Of course, the statement by itself proved that ain't was -- and is -- a word in English. The purpose of this list is to discuss language and language use. ALL uses of language are legitimate subjects for study, analysis, and comment. I don't have to like a word or a subject in order to learn about it, study it, or write about it. I think knowledge is always better than censorship. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 15:48:56 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) on whether the 'n' word has a racial meaning in african-american usage: there's an essay by gloria naylor about this in the 7th edition of _language awareness_ (ed. by eschholz, clark & rosa 1997). she writes about knowing the word long before she knew it as a racial slur, but the first time she heard it used in such a way, she recognized its speaker's intentions exactly. she also talks about how, in her dialect, it's respectful in the singular ("one fine n---"), but a put-down in the plural ("just a bunch of n---s"). it started up a nice discussion about plural vs. singular labeling in my freshman class (e.g., why do many women not want to be "a good guy", but do want to be "one of the guys"?) words don't hurt people; only people can hurt people. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:59:54 -0500 From: Jody Subject: The "N" Word What everyone seems to be overlooking in the discussion over the "N" word is that it IS a word. Its place on a page in any dictionary does not make it any more acceptable or unacceptable as a part of our everyday language arsenal. Rude, crude, socially unacceptable....call it what you will....but it IS a word and thus it should be in our dictionary. EVERY meaning should be listed just like every meaning for every other word should be listed as well. I am not saying that it has been fairly represented with the definitions it currently possesses - THAT should perhaps be what is striven for in all this debate, to include an ACCURATE description as to what the word really means and as to the actual usage of the word in contemporary English. The word has been around for a long time. Its usage has evolved just as the usage of every other word in our language has evolved. To show the real picture of the matter at hand, to show the beginning of the word (and perhaps even an end if all goes well), is the only correct and socially acceptable thing to do. -Jody \\|// ( 0-0 ) -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. ====> "Jody" jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Morehead State University .ooo0 ------( )-----0ooo.------ \ ( ( ) \_) ) / (_/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:02:12 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: ads website address What is the url for the ads website, esp for the archive? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:51:29 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Rat's -ss > (If so, research needed, unless someone turns up a written treatment.) >Maybe there's a military tie-in, as was suggested on the list last night -- >dictionaries of slang and the like list a lot of miltary expressions that >contain "rat." > >Maybe unrelated (???) is the British expression "rat-arsed," meaning really >drunk, which goes back to around 1980 or so. Where is Barry Popik now that we need him? His informational input far exceeded his personal commentaries, but ads-lers didn't respond to his implicit lexico-dialectal questions as diligently as they have to a couple of emotional items in recent days. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:05:23 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: ads website address > What is the url for the ads website, esp for the archive? http://www.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:20:11 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: >From stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu Tue Oct 28 17:02:05 1997 >Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? >Jesse: >You miss my point. There is nothing -- other than some very human >decisions made by people like you -- that demands that a >dictionary define by what you call what it "means." I don't think I or >many other people would have any trouble figuring out what it "means" by >starting with epithet. The Harper Collins CoBuild, for example, begins >the definition of "nigger" with "a word . . ." Semantics remains the >most >slippery of the linguistic levels and yet you make it sound as if what it >"means" is utterly transparent. Gail I suppose I have missed something, but I don't understand why you propose "defining" by epithet rather than by "meaning." (I can't refer back to your first message because I seem to have deleted.) What about words/phrases that can't be handled adequately by epithet? Should the dictionary use epithets for socially sensitive words but use word "meanings" for other words. I have an old dictionary at hand (1950s). Epithet is defined as follows: "an adjective, noun, or phrase expressing some quality considered characteristic of a person or thing: as, that _black-hearted_ villain" I would rather have a definition, I think, rather than just the epithet example used in the definition. I am still left with the question of why/how an epithet would be preferable to a meaning. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:11:42 -0500 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? An admittedly somewhat racist friend of mine from West Virginia frequently says "There are niggers, and there are Negroes," with forceful enunciation. He is using the DARE distinction (except for "regardless of skin color") in addition to Ron Butters' referential distinction. >I do think that it is important to keep in mind that there are core meanings >and peripheral meanings for most words. My intuitions tell me that, in its >core meaning, the derogatory word NIGGER is applied to darkskinned people. Does anyone still use n-words to refer to the dark-skinned people from southern India? I doubt it. The original Sambo was South Indian, I understand, reflecting British racial feelings, but would anyone nowadays use this term for anyone except people with some sub-Saharan African heritage. I think the references to "dark skin" are skirting the issue of actual usage. Both of my WV friend's terms could be applied (by him, BUT NOT ME!!!, of course) to individuals with rather light skin. >Here is a little thought experiment: >Suppose a blind person walks into a room full of strangers and says, "Are >there any niggers here?" Would anyone think that the blind person meant 'any >person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of skin >color'? OK. Here'a one scenario: the blind person is African American and knows that all people in the room have some African ancestry though he doesn't know them personally. Another scenario: The blind man is white and knows all the people in the room except him have African ancestry. Other scenarios can easily be made up. What if in the second scenario all the African Americans know the blind man and have good rapport with him? All these and other scenarios should be considered in coming up with a full "definition" of the term -- which is more a definiton of social attitudes than of a mere word (hyperobvious!). >*****in reply to: >DARE has evidence, both written and oral, of the use of "nigger" to refer to >"any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of >skin color." It is used especially frequently by Black speakers. See sense >B2b. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:29:06 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? et al On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > This is just a question about the list and not a complaint or > admonition: Does this list include discussion of political correctness, > or only discussion of language and how it is actually used (rather than > how it should be used). [snip] Speaking for myself, I would say that the list focuses on language and language use. I am interested in notions of political correctness and how language should be used when they explain or provide information about language use. The issue of how language should be used is usually a question of language policy rather than language use. Jeutonne ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 16:07:22 -0700 From: John Staczek Subject: Teaching the History of the English Language -Reply Allan, Add my name to the list of hundreds. John ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ John J Staczek, Professor and Chair Department of Modern Languages Thunderbird -- The American Graduate School of International Management 15249 North 59th Avenue Glendale AZ 85306-6012 phone: 602.978.7255 fax: 602.602.439.1435 email: staczekj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-bird.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:51:02 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc. Sidebar (or seque?) (For a student:) Could you recommend some fairly contemporary studies of taboo words in American English. Are there studies / articles of taboo words, esp *fuck*, as discourse markers? (through) beth simo ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:54:46 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: ads website address Thanks! beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 17:56:35 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: F word (was Re: redneck, nigger, good ole boy, kicker, etc.) At 05:51 PM 10/28/97 EST, you wrote: >Sidebar (or seque?) > >(For a student:) Could you recommend some fairly contemporary studies >of taboo words in American English. Are there studies / articles >of taboo words, esp *fuck*, as discourse markers? > Well, I'm not sure what angle you want to approach the topic from, but maybe Jesse Sheidlower's _The F Word_ would help. Published a couple of years ago, it treats many locutions and gives planty of dated & sourced usage citations. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 19:34:51 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Question re: _The Design Of Language_ Several people have recommended Terry Crowley (et al)'s _The Design of Language: An Introduction To Descriptive Linguistics_ It's a Longman publication, but Longman has no record of it. Can anyone help me out? ISBN number? Australian Longman? Anyone have a copy? Where did you find it? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu (anyone have the teach-ling address handy?) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 20:28:30 -0500 From: MELISSA LYNN BLAIR Subject: Re: RE>"my bad" Regarding the "my bad" saying, I am very familiar with this saying. I have played basketball my entire life, and I believe that was one of the first things I learned. If you do something wrong, you be big enough to admit it and go on. Not only when a foul is committed, but also when a bad pass is thrown or you miss read another player on the court, will this saying be used. It has been around for years on the basketball court, and I can see how it would be used in everyday life. I have caught myself saying these words and not even realizing it. I do however try to limit its usage to the basketball court. I wouldn't want anyone to think I was being rude by using this particular terminology instead of saying,"It was my fault". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:28:34 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? >since the dictionary wants to define black >people as "Niggers" then the dictionary >should include all derogatory >statements about all races. That is in fact the goal of unabridged dictionaries. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:42:11 -0700 From: Dick Heaberlin Subject: Re: "my bad" I have been playing pickup basketball since 1945, and I had never heard the expression "my bad" until the early eighties. When I first heard it, I thought it really seemed like a strange expression, but I discovered that I soon was using the expression myself on the basketball court-- routinely. "My mistake" and "my fault" seem too formal now. Like Melissa, I don't use it in other places. Oh, by the way, I have never heard it used after a foul, only after some other kind of mistake. Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 21:54:39 -0500 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? At 01:31 PM 10/28/97 -0500, CARRIE SUSANN ADDINGTON wrote: >On Mon, 27 Oct 1997, Evan Morris wrote: > > I am personally outraged by the fact that a stereotypical label has >been placed in a dictionary as a meaningful word. Does white trash >exist in the dictionary?--same thing! I hate racism adn the fact that it >exists but to put it in the dictionary as a word.No! It is a damn >stereotype. Does anyone agree? Is anyone else upset with this? >Carrie Carrie -- Please be careful where you put the insertion point when you begin typing a response in this group. These are your sentiments, not mine, and although a careful reading will detect that I actually only reposted the NAACP press release to which you apparently refer, a cursory glance by a reader would not. My own initial cursory glance damn near gave me a heart attack. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 23:12:24 -0500 From: "Allan D. Austin" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? When a dictionary or any other text is discussed or dissed, it should, of course, be read first--as Greg Downing says. But it is a bit-one-sided to declare there is "a whole array [cloth?] of modern-day folklore [that accepts there is racism without checking the] actual fabric of the situation." It seems to me there is a much greater array of folk today who believe and teach that racism is a thing of the past. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1997 to 29 Oct 1997 There are 29 messages totalling 723 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "my bad" (2) 2. ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 (4) 3. Pop Goes the Weasel 4. Rat F--- 5. Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats (3) 6. dialect coaches 7. Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats -Reply 8. haywire rockabilly 9. Teaching the History of the English Language 10. What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) 11. PC Dictionaries? 12. flying f. (2) 13. the word nigger 14. Indian Giver (2) 15. yid 16. The "N" Word 17. Appalacian languages (3) 18. PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race? 19. "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 06:14:43 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: "my bad" The expression "my bad" left the basketball court and entered the mainstream with the movie "Clueless" of a few years ago. It has become a teenage cult movie, and my students can recite whole sections of the screenplay, including expressions like "my bad", "whatEVER" and others. These are the kids who have never seen a basketball game, if you can imagine that. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:06:46 -0500 From: RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 From: "Ron Rabin" Subject: Rat Fuck When I was an undergraduate at Berkeley in the 60s the term "rat fuck," meaning a prank or joke played on someone, was common. But I've never heard it or read it since. Does anyone else know this term? Ron Rabin Buffalo State College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 07:25:11 -0500 From: RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 From: "Ron Rabin" Subject: Black dialectical variation in the use of nigger The discussion on the black and white uses of the word nigger have begun to turn up dialectical variation rather than a conclusion about how the word is used generally. We have begun to see, and I suspect from what I know, that nigger is used a variety of ways by African Americans and the variations are distributed by, potentially, geography, social class, family origin, etc. For starters: 1) nigger as a derogatory term for African Americans (mirroring white usage) 2) nigger as a derogatory term meaning shiftless, lazy (no racial sense) 3) nigger as a general reference term without value connotations --see Labov's collections in "The Logic of Non-Standard English" --the adjective it's coupled with provides the value, not the noun, so: a fine nigger, a bad nigger 4) use in the plural as always bad (as mentioned here) 5) but use as mass noun ("the nigger ain't got shit") as neutral, Cf. Labov Someone also noted that African American use of nigger reclaimed it, as did homosexual use of queer. But my sense is that nigger has been used right along as a general reference term for black man (not black women? not by black women?) by African Americans for as long as I've heard it spoken. And you? What do we know, historically and a matter of sociolinguistic practice and lore, about a group themselves using a term neutrally that is used to label them from outside negatively? We do have the example of "Black is beautiful" where a group asserts as positive that which is used as a negative. What I find interesting is that nigger could remain neutral for black speakers while it exists (and existed) in such a nasty sense for whites. Ron Rabin Buffalo State College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:26:51 -0500 From: Grant Barrett Subject: Pop Goes the Weasel Last night I could have sworn that Detectives Sipowicz and Simone on "NYPD Blue" borrowed wholesale from this list. The episode included a humorous [note the intentional and defiant article "a" before a word beginning in an "h"] subplot of the quizzing witnesses and informants about the true lyrics and meaning to the "Pop Goes the Weasel" rhyme. Did we not have this discussion recently? I am now looking in the archives, but as there is no search engine on the ADS-L archive, the going is tough. Who's got all this free time that they're writing screenplays on the side? Whoever you are, let's see this redneck/nigger thread make it on the show between Lieutenant Fancy and the Southern PAA temp. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:01:33 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Rat F--- At 07:06 AM 10/29/97 -0500, you wrote: >From: "Ron Rabin" >When I was an undergraduate at Berkeley in the 60s the term "rat fuck," >meaning a prank or joke played on someone, was common. But I've never >heard it or read it since. Does anyone else know this term? > When I was flipping through a few slang dictionaries about rat's ass, I came across "rat fuck" which if I recall was a military term (going back a number of decades to before the 60s) for (something like) any lousy, messed up situation or operation. But I don't have those dictionaries here at the office with me now.... Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:55:18 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats The local paper had the following news brief yesterday: First lady takes trip down memory lane PARK RIDGE, Ill.--Dodge ball, bologna tra-la-las, chicken-wire floats, ice skating on the tennis courts. Hillary Rodham Clinton's 50th birthday fest turned into a nostalgic trip through her past Monday that retraced the steps of an idyllic childhood in an Ozzie and Harriet home town. . . . So what are bologna tra-la-las and chicken-wire floats? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:00:07 -0500 From: Linda Urschel Subject: Re: Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats According to the news story I heard, bologna tra-la-las are made by cutting a hole in the middle of a piece of bologna, then frying the bologna with an egg in the hole. Chicken wire floats are simply parade floats made from chicken wire frames stuffed with "poms," colored pieces of tissue paper to look like flowers, opposing teams, etc. Linda Urschel Huntington College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:15:20 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald Subject: dialect coaches Hi - when I watch films and stay for the credits, I notice that often a person is listed as a "dialect coach." Does anyone know any of these coaches, or how they do their work, or any accounts of this process? Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:21:34 -0600 From: Elizabeth Gregory Subject: Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats -Reply I imagine chicken-wire floats (though I have always heard them called just "floats" or "parade floats") are those structures made of chicken wire into which crepe paper is stuffed. The whole mess, then, is carried in a parade or displayed prominently on the lawn of your high school or fraternity/sorority house. I helped to make many such in high school and college. No idea about bologna tra-la-las, though. Elizabeth Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:33:51 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka Subject: haywire rockabilly I did so well with bologna tra-la-las and chicken-wire floats that I'll hazard another query: We have a reference here to "haywire rockabilly" but have not succeeded in finding another one elsewhere. The local rockabilly expert has heard of punkabilly, psychobilly, psycho punkabilly, neorockabilly, etc., but he has never heard of haywire rockabilly. Does any rockabilly fan on the list know what it might be? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:48:00 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Teaching the History of the English Language Me too. Tim Frazer English Western IL Univ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:48:37 -0500 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) On Tue, 28 Oct 1997, Dennis Baron wrote: > The reporter who interviewed me about the n word for the local TV > station is black and said she was surprised to see all this discussion, > since when she was growing up her working definition of the word was 'an > uneducated person' and it had no racial connotation. She was surprised > when I told her it was connected to Negro. I thought this was very > interesting. Jesse, and others: is there any additional confirmation > for such a use of the word in the African American community? > I just spoke to an African-American professor who grew up in Gary, IN and he told me the same thing Dennis reports here. Where I grew up (Champaign) the N-word always referred to a person of color. And it does here in Louisville as well -- at least when used by a white person. Al Futrell -- al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:20:20 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 Ron Rabin writes, >Someone also noted that African American use of nigger reclaimed it, as >did homosexual use of queer. But my sense is that nigger has been used >right along as a general reference term for black man (not black women? >not by black women?) by African Americans for as long as I've heard it >spoken. And you? The someone was me, but I agree with the point: "nigger" has evidently been used by African Americans (although I think there has been a conscious recent reclamation effort too) in a way not quite parallelled by "queer" or other recent reclamation efforts ("hag", "dyke", etc.). >What do we know, historically and a matter of sociolinguistic practice and >lore, about a group themselves using a term neutrally that is used to >label them from outside negatively? We do have the example of "Black >is beautiful" where a group asserts as positive that which is used >as a negative. What I find interesting is that nigger could remain >neutral for black speakers while it exists (and existed) in such a nasty >sense for whites. One candidate for this status that I think doesn't really fit is the Yiddish "yid", referring to a (Jewish) person. This word was around in Yiddish before becoming a pejorative in German and English, I believe. Someone who knows the history can correct me. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:37:27 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? >From Donald M. Lance: > Does anyone still use n-words to refer to the dark-skinned people from > southern India? I doubt it. The original Sambo was South Indian, I > understand, reflecting British racial feelings, but would anyone > nowadays > use this term for anyone except people with some sub-Saharan African > heritage. I think the references to "dark skin" are skirting the > issue of > actual usage. Both of my WV friend's terms could be applied (by him, > BUT > NOT ME!!!, of course) to individuals with rather light skin. > I've heard of desert dwellers in North Africa and the middle east with darker skin referred to by racists as "sand niggers." Maybe the racist usage is generally for people with sub-Saharan African heritage, but with modifiers can apply to other areas. I've never heard the term above used in any way except as a racist epithet. (Note: I've taught English as a Second Language for a number of years.) Jessie Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:18:26 EST From: Billy Hamilton Subject: flying f. I saw where someone mentioned the use of the term "flying fuck," as in "I don't give a flying fuck." It is interesting that this came up, because my best friend uses this expression all the time. I have always wondered where she came up with it - she is the only person I have ever heard use it. So what are it's origins? Branching off of the discussion of derogatory terms, what about the term "indian giver?" This is a phrase I still hear at times today, and it angers me every time someone says it. I am a Cherokee and that is just as offensive to me as "nigger" would be to an African-American. This perpetuates a negative stereotype of people of my race. However, people do not really seem to care all that much when they insult Native Americans. I see this as evidence that negative feelings concerning this group still exist in some form. Throughout the history of the U.S., Native Americans have been viewed as a "lesser form" of human. They have been widely mistreated. But, unlike the cases with other forms of racial discrimination, no one seems to care about this problem except the people hurt by the attitudes. The lack of concern over phrases such as "indian giver" is just an extension of the "abuse them and then ignore them" attitude that many Americans have always had about Native Americans. Billy Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:37:29 -0500 From: Pat Courts Subject: the word nigger In this whole discussion, has anyone noted the orgination of the word "nigger"? As a result of the dictionary discussion, I got into another discussion with some colleagues and found opinions to vary considerably on the origin. Cheers, Pat Patrick L. Courts Department of English State University College at Fredonia Fredonia, NY 14063 courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu 716-672-5768 (home) http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 12:54:28 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1997 to 28 Oct 1997 On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Larry Horn wrote: > One candidate for this status that I think doesn't really fit is the Yiddish > "yid", referring to a (Jewish) person. This word was around in Yiddish before > becoming a pejorative in German and English, I believe. Someone who knows the > history can correct me. Turning to our trusty "Joys of Yiddish" by Leo Rosten, whether the term "yid" (m.sing.)is offensive or not depends upon its pronunciation. If it is pronounced so as to rhyme with "deed", it is neutral; if it is pronounced to rhyme "did" it is offensive, since that is the way it would be pronounced by non-Jews. The f.sing. form "yidene" is always offensive. "Yid" itself is cognate with the German "Jude" and means literally "a Jew". So far Rosten, however it would be interesting, to me at least, how current Yiddish speakers perceive the word. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:09:43 -0600 From: Brian James Callarman Subject: Indian Giver > Branching off of the discussion of derogatory terms, what > about the term "indian giver?" This is a phrase I still hear at times > today, and it angers me every time someone says it. I am a Cherokee and > that is just as offensive to me as "nigger" would be to an > African-American. This perpetuates a negative stereotype of people of my > race. However, people do not really seem to care all that much when > they insult Native Americans. I see this as evidence that negative > feelings concerning this group still exist in some form. Throughout the > history of the U.S., Native Americans have been viewed as a "lesser form" > of human. They have been widely mistreated. But, unlike the cases with > other forms of racial discrimination, no one seems to care about this > problem except the people hurt by the attitudes. The lack of concern over > phrases such as "indian giver" is just an extension of the "abuse them and > then ignore them" attitude that many Americans have always had about > Native Americans. > > Billy Hamilton Correct me if I'm wrong, but dosen't the phrase "Indian giver" refer to someone who gives something to another person and then takes it back again? I always thought that this phrase comes from the practice of the US government of making treaties with the Indian nations giving them their lands (not that the US should have had the authority to give the Indians land that they already occupied) and then taking it back as soon as gold was discovered, enough settlers had moved in or whatever the case was. I'm not Native American, but I never considered "Indian giver" to be in reference to something derogatory about Native Americans, more so refering to the way in which they have been dealt with. This is all just assumption, though. Brian Callarman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:53:44 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: flying f. At 03:18 PM 10/29/97 EST, you wrote: > However, people do not really seem to care all that much when >they insult Native Americans. Or Romish people when they say, I wuz gypped. Or for that matter, when African Americans assert that the ancestors of their white associates were never slaves (which is often not true), should Slavic people be offended? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:18:56 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats I'm guessing that a chicken wire float is a float for a parade, such as Homecoming or July 4th as would be common in an idyllic small town in middle America. the queen sits atop the float, which is shaped from chicken wire and decorated with paper carnations that are stuffed into the holes of the chicken wire. am I right, do ya think? As for tra-la-la bologna, I am without a clue. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 17:18:15 -0500 From: Larry Rosenwald Subject: yid Allen Maberry writes, Turning to our trusty "Joys of Yiddish" by Leo Rosten, whether the term "yid" (m.sing.)is offensive or not depends upon its pronunciation. If it is pronounced so as to rhyme with "deed", it is neutral; if it is pronounced to rhyme "did" it is offensive, since that is the way it would be pronounced by non-Jews. The f.sing. form "yidene" is always offensive. "Yid" itself is cognate with the German "Jude" and means literally "a Jew". So far Rosten, however it would be interesting, to me at least, how current Yiddish speakers perceive the word. I'm not sure I agree - and have reservations in any case about using Rosten's book by itself. "Yid" - in the Yiddish-speaking circles I'm familiar with, at any rate - is often pronounced to rhyme with "did," and not for any pejorative purpose. "Yidene" is sometimes pejorative in purpose, but is also used by Yiddish writers, and not always pejoratively. Best, Larry Rosenwald ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 13:48:08 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: The "N" Word Jody, I totally agree with your outlook on the "N" word. It IS a word whether we like it or not. Melissa S. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 19:54:04 -0500 From: LISA DAWN BURRISS Subject: Appalacian languages I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also where did it originate? Lisa Dawn Burriss ldburr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu (606)796-3557 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:59:00 EST From: Billy Hamilton Subject: Indian Giver Brian, I see what you are saying, but that is not how I have always understood it. As I understand it, "indian giver" refers to instances in which the white people tricked Native Americans out of land, by various means. The Indians often did not understand that they had given up that land, but still thought it was theirs and attacked the white settlers moving in. Thus, the white people got mad and said that the Indians were going back on their deals, when in reality they had been tricked and did not know it. Thus, "indian giver" refers to someone who gives a person something and then wants it back. I could be wrong, but that is how I understand it. It is a term that angers the Native Americans I know and have encountered, thus I feel that I have not been too far astray in my understanding of the term. Billy Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:28:35 -0600 From: Ditra Henry Subject: Re: "my bad" Larry, I worked in a Chicago, public inner city high school for 10+ years, and the AAVE speakers started to use my bad around the mid 80's. My bad meaning my fault and not on the basketball court, but in the classroom. I also remember the students then starting to say My bus(t) meaning my fault or my embarrassment maybe even coming from "to bus someone out" to show them up. Ditra D-Henry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neiu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:45:00 -0500 From: Anita Puckett Subject: Re: Appalacian languages >I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We >have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person >says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also >where did it originate? It is very much in use today, especially by rural speakers in the coalfields. I have heard it in many Eastern Kentucky, Southwestern Virginia, and Southern West Virginia counties among speakers of all ages particularly in formulaic phrases or idioms such as "hit don't matter." It is my understanding that heavy initial aspiration of "it" is found in Old English. Am I correct in this? > Anita Puckett Appalchian Studies Program Center for Interdisciplinary Studies 343 Lane Hall Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061-0227 Office: 540/231-9526 Fax: 540/231-7013 apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:39:26 -0600 From: Ditra Henry Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race? The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar with of course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word just a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did it have other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the emotions that have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not a thing fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and integral part of this country. I say take the word race out the dictionary and the rest will follow. Not a solution but only a theory. D. Henry NEIU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 20:42:22 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: Appalacian languages "hit" is the neuter form og the f=definite article in Anglo_Saxon - which had three genders: masculine, feminine, neuter - the definite articles being, respectively "he" - "heo" - "hit" I grew up in Oklahoma, Eastern Oklahoma, and "Hit don't make no nevermind!" was not an uncommon exression. Interesting how a for over a thousand years old can still be found so widely used. >I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We >have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person >says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also >where did it originate? > >Lisa Dawn Burriss >ldburr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu >(606)796-3557 _______________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES Professor Emertitus Music & Latin American Studies University of Wisconsin-Madison "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 USA _______________________________ EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu _______________________________ TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150 _______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 22:02:53 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS Subject: "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) Sam Jones was quite right in his reply to Lisa's query about the Appalachian use of "hit" as a variable realization for the third person singular neuter pronoun in English. "Hit" is the older form, and "it" is an innovation from the earlier form. The usage extends into the Appalachian areas of North Georgia. I also believe it may persist in Ozark speech. This example illustrates an intriguing phenomenon of language change. At time T1, "hit" was the predominant form. At some later time T2, "hit" competes with the new form "it." At a later time T3, "it" emerges as the standard or prestige form. "Hit" persists in various speech communities. The curiosity or quirk is that, at time T3, the historically older form "hit" is reanalyzed by the larger speech community as a degenerate form deviating from the standard. What we see is that various rural regional dialects actually preserve older forms of the language. My question is, does the metathetical pronunciation of "ask" characteristic of AAVE preserve an earlier form, or does it reflect a contemporary performance transposition? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1997 to 29 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 1997 to 30 Oct 1997 There are 35 messages totalling 973 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) (7) 2. Appalacian languages (3) 3. "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) (3) 4. Aks, ast (was "Hit") 5. the word nigger 6. ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1997 to 29 Oct 1997 7. flying f. 8. Okay....new topic. 9. "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) (2) 10. dialect&literature 11. Ast for Ask 12. The "n" word and M-W Collegiate Dict (2) 13. Reflexives in American dialects of English 14. RE>Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) 15. "my bad" (2) 16. offensiveness of "fuck" (was: a bunch of other stuff) 17. "Smell of" (4) 18. ads at mmla in chicago 19. dialect coaches ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:32:22 -0500 From: STEPHANIE LYNN KIRK Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) I don't understand how a white person can use the "N" word and it be offensive and black people can use this word toward each other and it not be offensive. Maybe someone can explain this phenomenon to me. I personally do not use this word in any context, but this is something I just don't understand. Thank you Stephanie Kirk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:38:08 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) >I don't understand how a white person can use the "N" word and it be >offensive and black people can use this word toward each other and it >not be offensive. Maybe someone can explain this phenomenon to me. I >personally do not use this word in any context, but this is something I >just don't understand. > > >Thank you >Stephanie Kirk Well, if white guys sit around and call each other rednecks, it's a group identification thing. If a black guy calls a white guy a redneck, it might be offensive. If my 15-year-old daughter and her girlfriends sit around and say "you bitch!" to each other, it's not offensive but a group identification thing. If one of their male friends calls one of them a bitch, it will probably be taken as offensive. It's hard for me to believe that you've never before encountered the co-opting of a negative term for group identification purposes. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:42:35 -0600 From: Tom Head Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, STEPHANIE LYNN KIRK wrote: > I don't understand how a white person can use the "N" word and it be > offensive and black people can use this word toward each other and it > not be offensive. Maybe someone can explain this phenomenon to me. I > personally do not use this word in any context, but this is something I > just don't understand. People don't usually use slurs on themselves, so the offensive connotations of the term are stripped when the targets of the term use it. The terms "Christian" and "Quaker" both originated as slurs, but were borrowed and defused by the target groups. If a white fellow uses the N word, history indicates that he probably means it in a racist sense. If a black fellow uses the N word, a racist meaning would be nearly impossible. Ethnic slurs are not like most other expletives, which sound nasty only because they sound nasty; ethnic slurs also have specific targets. Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:42:34 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Appalacian languages >I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We >have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person >says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also > >Lisa Dawn Burriss Oh, yes. I have relatives (all over 60) in Southern states who still use the old form in stressed position in a sentence. >where did it originate? Old English. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 00:57:41 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) Terry Irons asks: >My question is, does the metathetical pronunciation of "ask" >characteristic of AAVE preserve an earlier form, or does it reflect a >contemporary performance transposition? OE acsian But the existence of an older form doesn't negate the possibility of some sort of "optimal" form for certain dialects (if I'm not stretching the term 'optimality'). Lots of Southern whites say 'ax' too, but this fact doesn't totally rule out the possibility of a "metathesized" form developing on its own in AAVE's ancestral lects. The fact that 'ax' shows up in 19th century dialect marking of AAVE indicates that it isn't a contemporary development, though there may be contemporary forces working on preservation of the form. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:53:48 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: Aks, ast (was "Hit") Have any thoughts on the form 'ast'? Not for the past tense "asked", but for the non-past, "I'll have to ast him". (I think that I probably use "ast" for the past tense, especially in fast non-careful speech.) I have a well-educated young white friend from Middle Tennessee who uses this. His is a noticeably different dialect from mine (in West Tennessee), but although I don't have it myself, I think I heard in West Tennessee as well. Something tells me though that he wouldn't say "It never hurts to ast". Is the phonological environment here of some relevance? Is it the result of loosing a distinction between past and non-past tense? Danny Long -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 06:55:52 -0500 From: Gregory Roberts Subject: Re: the word nigger > In this whole discussion, has anyone noted the orgination of the word > "nigger"? As a result of the dictionary discussion, I got into another > discussion with some colleagues and found opinions to vary considerably on > the origin. > The online definition from Merriam Webster's lists the etymology as: Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger Date: 1700 gfr %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% % Gregory F. Roberts "There is water at the bottom of the ocean." % % Georgetown University -DavidByrne % % robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu % % www.georgetown.edu/users/robertsg % %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:03:29 -0500 From: RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1997 to 29 Oct 1997 Subject: The word Yid From: "Ron Rabin" >From my experience, the word Yid remains totally uncontaminated for Jews by its use elsewhere as a epithet. The word Yid in Yiddish means Jew, and in general discussion means "man" (generic) or "one," e.g., a man's lot in life, one does not cross the road so quickly. The word has always meant Jew, just as Yiddish means Jewish (and is also the name of the language). Leo Roston's _The Joy of Yiddish_ is no great linguistic source. There are so many pronunciation variations among Yiddish speakers that it just cannot be said that a particular difference (Yid rhymes with "deed" or "did" having different connotations) is generally meaningful. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:28:09 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: flying f. Actually, I think the only ethnics one can slur with impunity these days are Arabs. On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: > At 03:18 PM 10/29/97 EST, you wrote: > > > However, people do not really seem to care all that much when > >they insult Native Americans. > > Or Romish people when they say, I wuz gypped. > > Or for that matter, when African Americans assert that the ancestors of > their white associates were never slaves (which is often not true), should > Slavic people be offended? > > > Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net > http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 07:37:04 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Appalacian languages Hit is the Old English 3rd person nominative and accusative singular pronoun. The /h/ was lost in some areas as early as the 12c, and /it/ was regular by 1500. Hit did survive in dialects much longer, as your examples show. On Wed, 29 Oct 1997, LISA DAWN BURRISS wrote: > I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We > have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person > says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also > where did it originate? > > Lisa Dawn Burriss > ldburr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > (606)796-3557 > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:31:34 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Appalacian languages At 12:42 AM 10/30/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I am currently in an Appalachian Literature course at my university. We >>have read a lot of works lately where instead of saying "it", the person >>says "hit". I was just wondering if this was still used today and also > >> >>Lisa Dawn Burriss > It's also quite common in Faulkner's novels, which reflect North Mississippi dialect in the first 1/2 of the century now hurtling to a close.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:22:01 +0000 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) > I don't understand how a white person can use the "N" word and it be > offensive and black people can use this word toward each other and it > not be offensive. Maybe someone can explain this phenomenon to me. I > personally do not use this word in any context, but this is something I > just don't understand. Context --Al Futrell, Dept of Comm, Univ of Louisville --awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu --http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:38:43 +0000 From: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: Okay....new topic. I'm interested in the icon Jody uses: > > > > \\|// > > ( 0-0 ) > > -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- > > Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. > > ====> "Jody" > > jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > > Morehead State University > > .ooo0 > > ------( )-----0ooo.------ > > \ ( ( ) > > \_) ) / > > (_/ > > -- I have seen modifications of the familiar "Kilroy" figure recently but without any connection to its past. I remember it from the post-war years but after the '60s it virtually disappeared. Sen. McCarthy's poem "Kilroy is Absent Without Leave in Vietnam" identifies the cause as shame for America's role in the war. Questioning students who have placed variants on their footers--as Jody has--I find that they have no memory of its early use as the GI's pictogram for "I was here." Any comments? _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: TTh 9-10 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:53:44 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) Tom, Would you expand on the meaning of 'sound nasty'? Dennis >On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, STEPHANIE LYNN KIRK wrote: > >> I don't understand how a white person can use the "N" word and it be >> offensive and black people can use this word toward each other and it >> not be offensive. Maybe someone can explain this phenomenon to me. I >> personally do not use this word in any context, but this is something I >> just don't understand. > >People don't usually use slurs on themselves, so the offensive >connotations of the term are stripped when the targets of the term use it. >The terms "Christian" and "Quaker" both originated as slurs, but were >borrowed and defused by the target groups. If a white fellow uses the N >word, history indicates that he probably means it in a racist sense. If >a black fellow uses the N word, a racist meaning would be nearly >impossible. > >Ethnic slurs are not like most other expletives, which sound nasty only >because they sound nasty; ethnic slurs also have specific targets. > >Tom Head >tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com >http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh > >"The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. > What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." > -- Oscar Wilde Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:42:08 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) Terry asks: >My question is, does the metathetical >pronunciation of "ask" >characteristic of AAVE preserve an >earlier form, or does it reflect a >contemporary performance transposition? Since both ACSIAN and ASCIAN are found in Old English, my guess is that the variation has always been there. My memory is that one finds both in 19th and 20th century British dialects--i.e., it appears to be widespread and common throughout history. In ddition, of course, it could continue to be reinforced by being continually "reinvented" in the child-language acquistion process. In other words, Terry's question cannot be answered because the situation is not an either/or one. By the way (as Don Lance notes), AKS/ASK is not (I think) any more characteristic of AAVE than of many other contemporary dialects of English. As for D. Long's question about AST (pres.), this ils certainly common in white speech in North Carolina. Will someone plese go check Orton and see if it is found in English dialects as well? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 09:08:39 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle French or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me on this). And if I can remember anything from my anthropology courses, I think that in the early or mid 19th century (before anthropology became a science) that this term was used in conjunction with the division of the world's population into Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Of course, the Caucasians made up the divisions, so they got to be number one. Jessie >From Ditra Henry > The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar with of > course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word just > a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did it > have > other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the emotions > that > have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not a > thing > fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and integral > part of this country. > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:21:44 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: "Hit" (was Appalacian [sic] languages) A number of words developed an intrusive /t/ after /s/ in ME as in ME listnen from OE hlysnan, or ME beheste from OE behaes. I wonder if "ast" is an instance showing the phenomenon is ongoing. Both ASKEN and AXEN are found in Chaucer too. On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Ron Butters wrote: > Terry asks: > >My question is, does the metathetical > >pronunciation of "ask" > >characteristic of AAVE preserve an > >earlier form, or does it reflect a > >contemporary performance transposition? > > Since both ACSIAN and ASCIAN are found in Old English, my guess is that the > variation has always been there. My memory is that one finds both in 19th and > 20th century British dialects--i.e., it appears to be widespread and common > throughout history. In ddition, of course, it could continue to be reinforced > by being continually "reinvented" in the child-language acquistion process. > > In other words, Terry's question cannot be answered because the situation is > not an either/or one. > > By the way (as Don Lance notes), AKS/ASK is not (I think) any more > characteristic of AAVE than of many other contemporary dialects of English. > > As for D. Long's question about AST (pres.), this ils certainly common in > white speech in North Carolina. Will someone plese go check Orton and see if > it is found in English dialects as well? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:49:31 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: dialect&literature Sorry to disturb the whole list about this, but earlier this month somebody asked me for a copy of my 1982 article, "Dialect at Work: Eudora Welty's Artistic Purposes," and I lost the message and don't know where to send the offprint. If anybody still wants a copy, let me know. (I can't send it bye-mail, though--I only have a hard copy.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:50:32 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) At 09:08 AM 10/30/97 -0600, you wrote: >I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle French >or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me on >this). In biology and taxonomy (which is what we are discussing here, whether we know it or not), race is a subdivision of a species, that is, an organism that has recognizable genetically transmitted attributes but is not different enough from others of its ilk to constitute a separate species. There are races of house sparrows and lab rats and begonias. Another word for the same thing is sub-species, but I suspect that applied to humans that could be even more offensive. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:02:47 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: Ast for Ask At 10:21 AM 10/30/97 -0500, you wrote: >A number of words developed an intrusive /t/ after /s/ in ME as in ME >listnen from OE hlysnan, or ME beheste from OE behaes. I wonder if "ast" >is an instance showing the phenomenon is ongoing. > Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 10:44:23 -0600 From: Tom Head Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >Ethnic slurs are not like most other expletives, which sound nasty only > >because they sound nasty; ethnic slurs also have specific targets. > > Would you expand on the meaning of 'sound nasty'? It's, ah, technical jargon. That's the ticket! Seriously, the "F" word is offensive in almost any context. The word itself has connotations that are not necessarily deragatory towards specific individuals, but remain nontheless offensive. Ethnic slurs, on the other hand, gain their offensiveness because they have a target. To describe a similar phenomenon, look at Meredith Brooks's song "Bitch". The chorus begins "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover...". If a male vocalist recorded a song called "Bitch" beginning "She's a bitch, she's a lover...", it would be insulting. Why? Because the male vocalist falls outside of the group the slur insults, and the female vocalist does not. In my opinion, the same principle applies to ethnic slurs. Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:53:32 -0600 From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: The "n" word and M-W Collegiate Dict At 12:29 PM 10/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >>From Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Tenth Edition, p. 19a >(Explanatory Notes), Order of Senses: "The order of senses within an >entry is historical: the sense known to have been first used in >English is entered first." > >>From the definition of "nigger": "1: a black person -- usu. taken to >be offensive 2: a member of any dark-skinned race -- usu. taken to >be offensive 3: a member of a socially disadvantaged class of >persons the people who feel left out of the political process -- Ron Dellums> > _usage_ _Nigger_ in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such >writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles >Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and >inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is >not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it >is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry." ----------------------- ----------------------- This is indeed what is in this dictionary, and it is clearly incomplete. For example, the final sentence is far too weak. The expression "not always intended or taken as offensive" is misleading. I have often heard blacks use the "n" word as a term of friendship or even endearment among themselves. That aspect is not adequately dealt with above. The positive use of (otherwise negative) epithets is common to other groups as well. On another score, the M-W does include a mention of people who have "reduced pigmentation" under "white" (1348) and something about people under "yellow" (1371). Also, I have heard blacks use the word "white" with a clearly derogatory meaning. There is no mention of this under "white." Perhaps this deserves a usage note, too. (:) What it all boils down to is context: We need to know who is speaking to whom -- and much more -- to discover what meaning might be intended. akra krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 414/ w297-6519 fax297-7990 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 18:16:21 +0100 From: elisa vazquez iglesias Subject: Reflexives in American dialects of English Dear listers, I am interested in finding out if there are any variations with respect to the usage of reflexives in the different dialects of English. I would appreciate it if you could give me detailed information for the dialect you speak or if you could direct me to any relevant reading you are aware of. Thanks in advance. Elisa Vazquez Iglesias University of Santiago de Compostela Spain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:02:38 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) Tom, Thanks. I thought that's what you meant. I disagree, by the way. I think many ethnic slurs have steadily been gaining 'dirty word' status and constitute a new, fourth category of such words in English - joining excreta, sex, and religion. The fact that there are inoffensive ingroup uses does not make them a bit different from, for example, the fact that an old high school buddy might greet me with 'Dennis, you ol' mother-fucker' (and he'd better damn well 'd'-delete in 'old' too). Far short of offensive, such use shows extreme solidarity, just as ethnic slurs do in ingroup situations. Dennis (Of course, maybe I just think all my ol' high school buddies are buddies ........) >On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Dennis R. Preston wrote: > >> >Ethnic slurs are not like most other expletives, which sound nasty only >> >because they sound nasty; ethnic slurs also have specific targets. >> >> Would you expand on the meaning of 'sound nasty'? > >It's, ah, technical jargon. That's the ticket! > >Seriously, the "F" word is offensive in almost any context. The word >itself has connotations that are not necessarily deragatory towards >specific individuals, but remain nontheless offensive. > >Ethnic slurs, on the other hand, gain their offensiveness because they >have a target. To describe a similar phenomenon, look at Meredith >Brooks's song "Bitch". The chorus begins "I'm a bitch, I'm a lover...". >If a male vocalist recorded a song called "Bitch" beginning "She's a >bitch, she's a lover...", it would be insulting. Why? Because the male >vocalist falls outside of the group the slur insults, and the female >vocalist does not. In my opinion, the same principle applies to ethnic >slurs. > >Tom Head >tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com >http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh > >"The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. > What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." > -- Oscar Wilde Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 12:50:13 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: The "n" word and M-W Collegiate Dict Are you proposing that M_W do this? Including every sense/meaning of every word (which would seem to be the next logical progression) in every dialect/community of English would fall outside the scope of M_W's collegiate dictionary. That would involve a many-volumed work...like DARE? Jessie From Albert E. Krahn: > This is indeed what is in this dictionary, and it is clearly > incomplete. > For example, the final sentence is far too weak. The expression "not > always > intended or taken as offensive" is misleading. > What it all boils down to is context: We need to know who is speaking > to > whom -- and much more -- to discover what meaning might be intended. > > akra > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:37:40 -0500 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) From: Tom Head > Seriously, the "F" word is offensive in almost any context... I don't agree, and I'm sure my disagreement is the result of different socialization, possibly due to age or peer group. "What the fuck" and "fuck me" (as in "I can't believe how I just is just got screwed") are utilitarian and hardly show up on my sensitivity meter. Jesse's book has several uses of fuck that are fairly generic, to me, at least. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 11:05:24 -0800 From: Grant Smith Subject: Re: "my bad" Last night one of my best students, a moderately conservative, nordic looking young man in a class of 30, asked me to explain an error he had made in a quiz. As I was doing so, he nodded, saying, "my bad." It was the second time I heard it as a casual expression in this region (Spokane). Grant Smith Eastern Washington University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 14:17:17 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: offensiveness of "fuck" (was: a bunch of other stuff) >Tom Head wrote: > > Seriously, the "F" word is offensive in almost any context... > > I don't agree, and I'm sure my disagreement is the result of different > socialization, possibly due to age or peer group. "What the fuck" and > "fuck me" (as in "I can't believe how I just is just got screwed") are > utilitarian and hardly show up on my sensitivity meter. Jesse's book > has several uses of fuck that are fairly generic, to me, at least. > > Grant Barrett > gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com The most instructive example of this in recent memory is found in successive editions of Pamela Munro's _U.C.L.A. Slang_ volumes. The first, in 1989, categorized lexemes by offensiveness, with, for instance, fuck, fuck me, fuck you!, fuckface,_ as well as _lick me!, fuzz bumper 'female homosexual', slag 'ugly girl', and other all placed in angle brackets indicating that they (or their referents) are considered offensive. By _U.C.L.A. SLANG 2,_ in 1993, the students (all editorial decisions of this sort were made by her students, not by Munro) concluded that "words of the first type [sc. sexual and scatological terms] are now so commonly used on campus, by such a wide cross-section of students, that there is no need to mark almost any of them as offensive." The words in this volume that get the angle brackets tend to be derogatory terms for other people, e.g. _fish_ 'woman (in sexual contexts)', _flamer_ 'stereotypically homosexual male', _quad_ 'uncoordinated person' (fr. _quadriplegic_), etc. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:23:31 -0500 From: Blue Roses Subject: "Smell of" Here at Auburn University, I have come across an interesting use of the phrase "smell of." In Auburn, AL, I have heard people use it to mean the same thing as the verb "smell." For instance, my boyfriend once instructed me to "smell of the roses" he had given me. Most recently, I heard a friend ask his fiance to "Smell of this food--do you think it has gone bad?" I most often hear it used as a command to sniff something, as in, "Smell of this." Has anyone else come across this usage? I would also like to know if DARE has any information on this topic. Thank you in advance. Sincerely, Angela Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 13:48:27 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "Smell of" It's very common in the South--I'm sure there's something in DARE. Jessie From Angela Schmidt > Here at Auburn University, I have come across an interesting use of > the > phrase "smell of." > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:19:44 -0500 From: Stephanie Dawn Humphries Subject: Re: "my bad" Regarding the discussion on "my bad," I've never heard that phrase but have heard "my bag" used in much the same way. However, this expression was popular when I was in the eighth grade and possibly high school (1985-1988)and I haven't heard it much since. Then again, I haven't lived in my hometown in SW Virginia since then, either; hence, it could be alive and well. FYI, it was popular with all young people of all races and was not limited to basketball players or athletes. Hope this helps. -Stephanie Humphries ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:32:52 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: ads at mmla in chicago The American Dialect Society session of the MMLA, Chicago, Nov 6-8 is Friday, Nov 7, 12:30-2 pm, in the Washington Room of the Ramada Congress Hotel. Hope to see you there beth simon midwest regional secretary assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 17:06:12 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: dialect coaches At least two ADS members are dialect coaches: Allyn Partin and Robert Easton, the latter also known as "The Henry Higgins of Hollywood Inc." They gave a presentation at our 1994 meeting in San Diego. You'll find their addresses in the just-published September issue of the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 12:36:19 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: "Smell of" Blue Roses wrote: > something, as in, "Smell of this." > Has anyone else come across this usage? Ever since I can remember, yes. What else do you say? (in West Tennessee, that is). And I think you're right about it meaning "sniff", because you can (and I do) say "Smell of this. Has it gone bad?" but you can't say, "I could smell of the paper mill a mile away." I'm afraid that kind of information doesn't help you much though. I think we had this conversation on the list before, just recently. You might could find some better answers to your question in the ADS-L archives (which is, by the way, neither the same as saying "you could find" nor "you might find"). If someone could recall when it was that this topic was discussed, perhaps you could help Ms. Schmidt out and give her a hint about where (what month) to start looking. Danny Long The archives are reportedly here: http://www.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 21:36:08 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: "Smell of" smell / smell of was discussed on ads-l last year some time. You might look up the interchanges in the ads archives to see earlier comments. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 1997 to 30 Oct 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 1997 to 31 Oct 1997 There are 27 messages totalling 880 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Smell of" (3) 2. help sought on frontierish language 3. "Bless you" (was "Good morning") 4. thank you . . . thank you 5. the mindlessness of "bless you" 6. Neck Hue (3) 7. Sneeze 8. sea change (2) 9. hello/good-bye 10. Pop Goes The Weasel 11. 12. Hill Jack/jake/jakey 13. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... 14. PC Dictionaries? (4) 15. "my bad" (2) 16. haywire rockabilly 17. Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats 18. Reflexives in American dialects of English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 08:58:18 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: "Smell of" If it was discussed with regard to 'smell' only then it is certainly not complete. I don't remember the earlier discussion, but the use of 'of' with sense verbs (taste, smell, feel) is widely distributed in the US south (and, I suspect, has varying patterns of social significance). Note the parallel with nominal forms of these verbs in such phrases as 'Take/have a taste of this.' Danny Long pointed out that the 'of' appearance in verbs appears to be limited to grammatical imperatives (pragmatically they are often 'invitations' or 'offers'), and that would seem to even more strongly relate them to the parallel nominal forms. If Danny is right, then 'Smell of this' is gram matical, but 'I smelled of that rose yesterday' (with the proper meaning - not 'I had the smell of a rose myself') is ungrammatical. I'm not a sense-verb + 'of' speaker myself. Is that right for those of you who are? Dennis >smell / smell of was discussed on ads-l last year some time. You might >look up the interchanges in the ads archives to see earlier comments. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 10:42:33 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Subject: help sought on frontierish language The following appeared in LINGUIST List #8.1559. Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Message 1: Help with frontierish language . . Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 14:58:43 -0800 From: Peer Landa Subject: Help with frontierish language . . I'm looking for a specialist in the colloquial language of the Arizona territory circa 1880-1900 to proof-read a screenplay. I wish to avoid any modern expressions and preserve the authentic language of the time. There is relatively little dialog, so it shouldn't take more than an hour or so. - peer _____________________________________________________ peer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccrma.stanford.edu http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~peer Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 00:50:25 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: "Smell of" Dennis R. Preston wrote: > If it was discussed with regard to 'smell' only then it is certainly not > complete. I don't remember the earlier discussion, but the use of 'of' with > sense verbs (taste, smell, feel) is widely distributed in the US south > (and, I suspect, has varying patterns of social significance). If "social significance" means marked for social acceptability, I disagree. At least in my case, these forms had no "non-standard" stigma attached whatsoever. In fact, it was only after they appeared as a topic on ADSL that I found out there were (unfortunate) people who thought these expressions were strange. > Danny Long pointed out that the 'of' appearance in verbs > appears to be limited to grammatical imperatives (pragmatically they are > often 'invitations' or 'offers'), and that would seem to even more strongly > relate them to the parallel nominal forms. If Danny is right, Have I ever been wrong so far, Dennis? Actually, what I said has been misinterpreted though. I agreed with what the poster said about it meaning "sniff" rather than just passively have an odor enter one's nostrils. Maybe it's a hear-listen, see-look kind of thing. I'll have to think about it a little more. Right now, it's past midnight here in the Orient, and my mind is not exactly in high gear. I think this holds true for "feel of" and "taste of" as well. "I tasted of his drink, but I couldn't taste(*taste of) the alcohol." This semantic element of course means that the "of" form is the form of choice with imperatives (where someone has to actively put their senses to work). > then 'Smell of this' is grammatical, but 'I smelled of that rose yesterday' is ungrammatical. > I'm not a sense-verb + 'of' speaker myself. This is obvious from your incorrect judgement above! I want all of y'all to remember this faux pas the next time DInIs claims to be a speaker of Southern English! Let the truth be known! No, the sentence above is correct. It might be easier if you changed the object, but you could very easily say things like "She asked me, 'Will you smell my chicken salad sandwich to make sure it's okay?' Well, I could smell(*smell of) it all the way across the room and I knew it had gone bad, but I went over and pretended to smell of it. I lied and told her it was okay and that she should go ahead and eat it, 'cause I figured she was one of those non-sense-verb-plus-of-speakers and therefore had it coming to her." Danny ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:56:40 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "Bless you" (was "Good morning") In a message dated 10/23/97 6:56:35 AM, you wrote: <> There is no finer American than a polite and friendly Southern man or woman loose on the streets of New York City. I can't think of a finer cultural/linguistic combo platter. So, please continue with your meaningless pleasantries. Jim Crotty How To Talk American monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol/com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:47:52 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Lost your last missive to me, Lynn. Just giving you a hard time. Yes, banal banter drives me nuts too. Unless, of course, I am the one who wants to engage in banal banter. Don't make like or dislike, as the Zen patriarchs seem to indicate, is probably the best solution. Since the more we cling to our need for silence and privacy, the more the world wants to invade. Monk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:43:38 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: the mindlessness of "bless you" In a message dated 10/23/97 9:29:26 AM, you wrote: <<2. As an atheist, I'm unot especially delighted when people saying prayers on my behalf (at least vocal ones in my presence). It seems rather "mindless" to assume that I want to be prayed over! I should add that I am much too polite a person not to respond with "thank you" to a proferred "Bless you"--in fact, what maybe others me REALLY about the "Bless you" routine is that sometimes people seem irritated with me if I don't say "Bless you" when THEY sneeze. I should add also that I don't have a lot invested in all this--there are a LOT of times when I feel out of touch with my own culture, as for example when people ASSUME that I am interested in sports (who IS Dean Smith, anyway?--recently somebody asked me to observe a moment of silence in honor of Mr. Smith's impending retirement!) or that I drink alcoholic beverages. >> Mega Ibids. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:59:12 +0000 From: David Bergdahl Subject: Neck Hue In this university town in Appalachian Ohio "redneck" is currently the term-of-abuse for local kids (not townies, not university faculty brats) in the Middle School. Athens Middle School is the first site of social class mixing and social class stereotyping runs rampant, esp. among university kids. Competing terms are "Rutter" [after a local family name], "wanker" [< British slang?] or "plugger" [< use of chewing tobacco?]. Fifteen to twenty years ago when my older kids were at AMS, the competing terms were "ridge-runner" and "hill-jack." -- _____________________________________________________________________ bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (614) 593-2783 office hrs: TTh 9-10 fax: (614) 593-2818 & by appointment ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 15:50:12 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: Sneeze In a message dated 10/24/97 4:26:49 AM, you wrote: <<} }And while I'm at it, doesn't saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes go back to }the Black Death and sneezing as a symptom of plague? Remember that lovely bit }of dialogue from _The Lady's Not for Burning_, said by the priest (abbot, friar }whoever) just as he exits, "God bless you in case you sneeze." "Thank you. I }may." Talk about preventive medicine! (Actually, this relationship just }dawned on me after I'd been talking to a class about the nursery rhyme "Ring }Around a-Rosy" and its imitation of the plague-stricken.) I thought it was because your spirit left you when you sneezed, leaving you vulnerable to the devil. Well, back around the Plague era, anyway. Aaron>> Both seem quite plausible, and very instructive. Thankyou. Monk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:06:33 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: sea change In a message dated 10/24/97 6:57:36 AM, you wrote: <>> I also remember a similar line spoken by Daedalus in Joyce's Ulysses, which probably refers back to the earlier Tempest reference. Monk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:14:28 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: hello/good-bye In a message dated 10/24/97 8:38:31 AM, you wrote: <["Bless you!" has] no function other >than to provide an excuse to make >contact with a fellow human. Those >who say "bless you" when you sneeze >likely have some interest in >making contact with you, or with >other people in general. Those who do >not, likely have no such interest. I don't agree. "Bless you!" as conversational opener is pretty rare--the idea of waiting around for strangers to sneeze before talking to them is pretty ludicrous. Often "Bless you!" is uttered in the middle of conversations that have been temporarily halted by a sneeze (come to think of it, arguably it has some small function here that signals 'your sneeze did not disrupt our conversation'). Often it is uttered by people who are not in converstion but who know each other well (e.g., two people working in the same office). When a total stranger utters it to another, I don't think it is generally taken as a signal that a conversation should start--that may happen, as with a dropped package--but conversation-initiation is incidental, not functional.>> I prefer to use Gesundheit, which literally translates as "health," and carries no religious baggage for the average user or listener. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:24:54 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: sea change > > < father lies;/Of his bones are coral made:/Those are pearls that > were his eyes:/Nothing of him that doth fade,/But doth suffer a > sea-change/Into something rich and strange." (I.ii) > > Here it means 'a change brought about by the sea', but it's > now used to mean 'any major transformation'.>> Monkmag writes: > > I also remember a similar line spoken by Daedalus in Joyce's Ulysses, which > probably refers back to the earlier Tempest reference. "A seachange this, brown eyes saltblue. Seadeath, mildest of all deaths known to man. Old Father Ocean. Prix de Paris: beware of imitations. Just you give it a fair trial. We enjoyed ourselves immensely." A few paragraphs earlier, he riffs on some of the "full fathom five" stuff. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:26:46 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan Subject: Re: Neck Hue A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. The social stereotyping extends beyond schoolkids, unfortunately. An ESL teacher here was sneering at the speech of local kids just the other day, noting in particular a neighboring town called Chauncey (how do you all pronounce that name, by the way?) and adding, "Thank goodness my kids are out of school" (presumably to avoid coming "under the influence" any longer). Sadly, a linguist colleague commented that Ohio elementary school teachers should all be required to take courses in teaching ESL so they could teach Standard English as a Second Dialect to these kids. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:41:42 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen Subject: Pop Goes The Weasel A few days ago someone asked about the meaning of the Pop Goes The Weasel lyrics. I addressed this topic in my _Comments on Etymology_, vol. l9, no. 7, April l990, pp.28-32; title: '"Pop Goes The Weasel" Revisited.' Copies are available in the NY Public Library and the library at my campus: Reference Desk Library University of Missouri-Rolla Rolla, MO 65401 --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 17:36:18 EST From: Michael Montgomery Subject: The use of _of_ redundantly is attested with all three sense verbs (_feel_, _smell_, and _taste_) in the forthcoming _Dictionary of Smoky Mountain English_. Nary a one of the citations is an imperative. The preposition seems to be more common after _recollect_ and _remember_ than it is with sense verbs. Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:01:13 +0000 From: Ashlea Allen Subject: Hill Jack/jake/jakey Speaking of David Bergdahl's reference to the use of "hill-jack" in southeastern Ohio , has anyone ever heard the term "jake" /jek/ used to refer to someone who is poorly dressed? (not necessarily poor as in monetary poor). The adjective being "jakey"? We use it in my native southern Ohio, and I've heard of its use in Ironton, OH (southern OH across the river from Ashland, KY) as well. Now I'm wondering if maybe "jake/jakey" came from "hill jack" or "jack". Any thoughts on this? Along similar lines then, PERHAPS, is its relationship to "hoopy". This term, "hoopie/hoopy" seems to be jake's equivalent in much of northeastern OH. From what some natives of that area have told me, "hoopy" like "jake" is used to describe someone who is poorly dressed, off in appearance. I believe the term originally was used to refer to the folk from WV who had moved to the area to work in the factories/industries. If this is the case with both jake and hoopy, I think it's interesting that we have terms which have originated to refer to Appalachian people and over time, both have changed to refer to the (poor) physical appearance/attire of a person -- Appalachian or not. Any thoughts? Can anyone think of words with similar etymologies or uses? Ashlea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:54:14 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... In a message dated 10/28/97 7:05:48 AM, you wrote: <> I find this to be a quite interesting phenomenon, the reclamation and reappropriation of derogatory terms by out groups. Even by southern rednecks, who affectionately call each other "good ole boys." "Yeah, Ed, he's a good ole boy." And by Italian-Americans when they speak of other "dagos" and "______" (ah, the term escapes me now).... Perhaps folks out there can think of other examples of this tendency, say from Irish or Jews or Latinos. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:13:02 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? In a message dated 10/28/97 7:12:31 AM, you wrote: <<> DARE has evidence, both written and oral, of the use of "nigger" to refer to > "any person perceived as uncouth, immoral, or threatening, regardless of > skin color." It is used especially frequently by Black speakers. See sense > B2b. I find this particular issue one of the more interesting ones in the discussion. We also have this sense in RHHDAS (sense 3, "Now esp. Black E. a reprehensible person (of any race); lout; (used as a coarse term of contempt)."), with written and oral citations. However, one could make the claim that few or none of these examples truly represent this sense in free use. Many of our examples, and those in DARE, consist of black speakers simply denying that "nigger" means 'a black person' and claiming that it means 'a reprehensible person'. Even the examples using it in context--for instance, Chris Rock's now famous "Black people vs. niggers" sketch ("There's a civil war going on between black people and niggers....You can't go to the movies because there's niggers shooting at the screen")--do not use it in a race-neutral manner. While I think this sense probably does exist, it is nowhere near as common as it is claimed to be. Jesse Sheidlower >> In my ample experience playing "hoops" in all kinds of neighborhoods, in all parts of America I, a very white Midwestern American, am frequently called "nigger." It can either be a term of endearment or a slight put-down, as in "c'mon, nigger, you know you can't hit that." Or sometimes as a more vociferous put-down, as in, "shut up nigger, you don't know what you talkin' about." Or sometimes as a playful joke amongst other black men, as in, "look at that nigger, he's a real Billy Hoyle" (the Wood Harrelson character from White Men Can't Jump). Of course, the use of nigger amongst blacks themselves has both positive and negative connotations. Positive as a greeting-- "s'up nigger?" or negative (as in the Chris Rock sketch and others). In the examples I have listed above, nigger can definitely be applied to non- black people (I've heard it applied to Asians, Latinos, etc.), but the roots in its current usage invariably go back to black rap slang and thus to blacks themselves. So, while its usage among white, Latino and Asian Yo Boys or wiggers indicates the term may have transcended race, its roots remain very race-specific. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 16:34:55 -0800 From: Peter McGraw Subject: Re: Neck Hue On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids > whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for > all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. > Gee, where did the makers of the film Breaking Away get "cutter"? Is that for townies who work in the quarries, and "stoney" is for quarry workers from outlying towns? Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:31:43 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? In a message dated 10/28/97 8:49:27 AM, you wrote: <> Steve, I have never been called a peckerwood. And would have to smile if someone called me a peckerwood. "Jim, you dumb peckerwood." I like that. No attachment. Hasn't this M-W definition been cleared up already. Just indicate that its usage is largely derogatory or can be or historically has been derogatory and you have it covered, right? Not to minimize the negative associations black people have with the term nigger (it is the one term if used pejoratively by a white person to describe a black person that I will literally come to blows over--it saddens and angers me that there are still folks that use it in this old purely negative sense), but I have always been curious about the range of black slang terms for white people. Anyone know of a good source (especially of terms in regular use today)? I am sure I am not hurt by these terms for the obvious reason that as a white person I am not an oppressed racial group. It only makes sense. Still want to know those terms.... Heck, maybe I should be upset with peckerwood.... Jim Crotty How To Talk American Captain of the Los Angeles Peckerwoods ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:39:18 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: "my bad" In a message dated 10/28/97 8:55:29 AM, you wrote: <> In the hoops section of my recent book, How to Talk American, I talk about its use in street basketball. I'll bet you that white guy in the Atlanta Airport was a basketball player or coached basketball or had a son who played regular basketball. It's definitely heard quite frequently on the courts. For example, you drive down the court on a three and one. Rather than pass to one of your wide open teammates under the basket, you instead choose to shoot a three- pointer, which you miss. Everyone knows you made a bonehead play, but will cut you some slack, if in running back down court you say, "I'm sorry guys, my bad." You can pass that on to Mr. Greene. Jim Crotty Author, How To Talk American monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 19:57:39 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? In a message dated 10/28/97 9:45:51 AM, you wrote: < I am a Black man, not African-American, and the use of the word "Nigger" > or shall I say the definition of the word, in the Merriam dictionary > greatly offends me. Who gave them the right to define any one person or > race. Is the publisher of Merriam God. Nope. Of course Merriam-Webster is not God: this is precisely the reason why it cannot define a word in whatever way it pleases. God might change language; a dictionary cannot. A dictionary records language; it has no power to determine or change it. So what gives him the > right to call me a "Nigger." M-W is not "calling" anyone anything. It is truthfully recording the (unfortunate) fact that some speakers of American English do in fact use the term to refer to black people in a derogatory manner. Pretending otherwise would be dishonest and would not change the fact that the usage exists. Peter McGraw>> This brings up an interesting point. I was recently asked by an interviewer in Portland, "should certain words be retired?" She was referring to offensive uses of words like "babe." As in, "hey babe." Of course, I railed against such a notion, since they reek of literal-minded, one-dimensional political correctness. But perhaps at the root of Mr. Holden's and NAACP's protest is a desire for just this--a retiring of the "n-word." Keep in mind--this sort of thing is frequently done in other countries. There is an institute Paris, which determines which foreign words can or cannot be used in advertisements, etc. And in Germany, the outlawing of a whole slew of words associated with the Third Reich. Is there a point, EVER, where the retiring of volatile words could be deemed necessary for the greater public interest? My answer at this juncture seems to be a flat out NO. One of the tests of a democracy is its ability to contain disparaging and ugly uses of language. But I am interested to hear if there are cogent counterarguments to this position. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:36:58 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: PC Dictionaries? In a message dated 10/29/97 12:46:49 AM, you wrote: <<> > I am personally outraged by the fact that a stereotypical label has >been placed in a dictionary as a meaningful word. Does white trash >exist in the dictionary?--same thing! I hate racism adn the fact that it >exists but to put it in the dictionary as a word.No! It is a damn >stereotype. Does anyone agree? Is anyone else upset with this?>> Just looked up "white trash." It's in Webster's. Jim Crotty How to Talk American ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 20:49:54 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: haywire rockabilly In a message dated 10/29/97 7:37:17 AM, you wrote: <> Maybe it's a new form of rockabilly emerging from the meeting of latter day psycho Grange members (Hay) and musically inclined digerati (wire..d).... Just a completely useless conjecture on my part. Then again, maybe it's a type of rockabilly pioneered by Louis Rosetto after Wired Ventures' poor reception on Wall Street (and the concommitant arrival of the term "HayWired").... Actually, would love to know the roots of the term "rockabilly." Monk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:03:17 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: Bologna tra-la-las & chicken-wire floats In a message dated 10/29/97 7:41:28 AM, you wrote: <> Wow, this is wild. Tell me... are these tra-la-las unique to Chi-town? And how does tra-la-la have anything to do with what you described? Monk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:09:49 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: "my bad" In a message dated 10/30/97 3:53:00 AM, you wrote: <> Actually, I've also heard "bust" used favorably. Especially in basketball. "Nice bust" means nice shot or nice basket. And to "bust a move" is to make a sexual advance on someone, usually a woman. However, a "buster" is a wannabe gang member. There's more, but others can take it from here. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:39:11 +0900 From: Daniel Long Subject: Re: Reflexives in American dialects of English I have been waiting for someone to respond to this person's question. Perhaps someone has replied off the list. This sounds like an area where regional variation is significant. Phrases like "Sit yourself down.", "I had myself some supper", is this not what she is referring to? Isn't there regional variation in these types of expressions? Certainly there is someone on the list who knows more about the subject than me. Danny Long elisa vazquez iglesias > I am interested in finding out if there are any variations with respect to > the usage of reflexives in the different dialects of English. I would > appreciate it if you could give me detailed information for the dialect > you speak or if you could direct me to any relevant reading you are > aware of. -- Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 22:13:34 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: "Smell of" >If it was discussed with regard to 'smell' only then it is certainly not >complete. I think the last series began with a question about 'feel of' or 'taste of' and that 'smell of' came into the discussion as well. Maybe the discussion came up in the spring or summer when Dennis Preston was too busy working on his Handbook of Perceptual Dialectology to spend much time on ads-l. > Danny Long pointed out that the 'of' appearance in verbs >appears to be limited to grammatical imperatives (pragmatically they are >often 'invitations' or 'offers'), and that would seem to even more strongly >relate them to the parallel nominal forms. If Danny is right, then 'Smell >of this' is gram matical, but 'I smelled of that rose yesterday' (with the >proper meaning - not 'I had the smell of a rose myself') is ungrammatical. >I'm not a sense-verb + 'of' speaker myself. Is that right for those of you >who are? All three of these verbs carry the sense of "check it out," "see if it's OK," or "verify this." If a group had been checking out roses and other flowers to see if we could find exactly the right fragrance for a perfume (or stink bomb) and the project lasted a couple of days, then the sentence posed by Dennis Preston would be appropriate and grammatical if I wanted to say "Yeah, I checked that one out yesterday (bent down and smelled of that one); we've gotta keep going till we find the right one." I've been trying to check out the 'see' sense verb for this 'vx of ny' pattern, but the only situation I've come up with is "Do you see much of Bobby?" "No. I saw him go into the hardware store the other day. Must be working on his house again. I don't see much of him anyway." "Do you see Bobby much?" would have different implicatures, perhaps referring to spending some time with Bobby rather than merely catching sight of him. And "see him around much" seems to be different from "see much of him." I'd be surprised if these 'sense of' verbs were found to be regional. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 1997 to 31 Oct 1997 ************************************************