There are 7 messages totalling 189 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. butter(s) 2. kimmelwick (6) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 22:11:08 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: butter(s) A local high-schooler passed on, via her mother, that 'butter' has begun to replace 'phat' as a term of praise, which reminded me of a term I never did understand: 'school butter'. I heard this one from my mother-in-law, who was originally from East Tennessee (Johnson City), who said this was what the Big Kids used to call after the new pupils as they walked into the school. I understand it must be negative in force; does anybody know what it means? Boyd Davis fen00bhd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unccvm.uncc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:07:02 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: kimmelwick thanks so much to everyone for the help on "pop goes the weasel". unfortunately, since making the query, i've had the Damned tune going through my head day and night. i hope you were not similarly afflicted. and now for something completely different... in the buffalo, new york region, and no where else that i've ever seen, there is a kind of (bread)roll called a kimmelwick roll. it's a somewhat crusty sandwich roll with coarse salt on the top which i've only seen used for hot roast beef sandwiches (very jus-y), which we call "roast beef on 'wick" (upon which horseradish is the only approved condiment). the wegman's supermarket chain has now spread kimmelwicks across western new york, but when i was a kid, we made a special point on all our visits to niagara falls to get a whole bunch and take them home to freeze (we lived about an hour and a half past the kimmelwick line). can someone tell me: -is the name german or dutch? (i assume german, b/c my german grandmother's picnics featured r.b. on wick, but there are a lot of dutch-descended people in that part of the world too; also, it's not in my german-english dictionary, nor in my english dictionaries) -do they have these things in germany/holland? i.e., is it an imported food or a local invention in the german/dutch community there? (or something else entirely) -does anyone from any other region know the name? -do people from other regions know the food but give it a different name? i shouldn't do this--talking about foods i like and can't get is always torture. 3 months til my next kimmelwick, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:42:52 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: kimmelwick I have just finished a degree in German, and I am fairly certain that it is not German, although it could very well be a German dialect-word. I speak High German, but I cannot understand Bayuvarisch or Alemanisch, etc. to but a minor extent. Regional foods are often named with dialect. I have a Dutch friend that I could ask, although I can tell you that Danish and Dutch are both similar to German, and the Scandinavian languages are similar to a lesser degree. If you could tell me what, apart from the sound of the word, influenced you to think it is German, I might be able to assist better. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:57:57 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: kimmelwick I have just finished a degree in German, and I am fairly certain that it is not German, although it could very well be a German dialect-word. I speak High German, but I cannot understand Bayuvarisch or Alemanisch, etc. to but a minor extent. Regional foods are often named with dialect. i got a private msg from joseph salmons saying that "wecken" is a southern german/austrian word for longish rolls and kuemmel is caraway. this caused me to remember that (a) it is also (perhaps "properly") spelt "-weck" (but in my family, at least, pronounced [wIk]), and (b) there are 2 varieties: the carawayful ones and the carawayless ones (the latter are the ones i like, so i blocked the existence of the other--both have the crushed salt). however, i've never seen one that's oblong--they're always round in my experience. nevertheless, this sounds like a pretty likely etymology. could also be that the far western new york existence of them is linked to a pennsylvania german influence? i don't know. anyone from pennsylvania "dutch" country know of them? lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:57:08 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: kimmelwick I think the PA Dutch argument is plausible. I'd take the kuemmel idea, except that she's describing something with heavy salt, not caraway. Many Dutch words do seems almost German. I can't udnerstand it spoken, but I can read it, and they are greatly alike. J Wilke ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 20:39:32 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick Jason Wilke writes, I think the PA Dutch argument is plausible. I'd take the kuemmel idea, except that she's describing something with heavy salt, not caraway. Many Dutch words do seems almost German. I can't udnerstand it spoken, but I can read it, and they are greatly alike. Actually, the last comment is technically a non sequitur, since the Dutch in Pennsylvania Dutch is really Deutsch, i.e. German. This is presumably why Lynne, in the posting responded to by Jason, referred to it as 'Pennsylvania [or PA] "Dutch"', with scare quotes. I was going to suggest the caraway derivation myself, because although I know very little German, I do happen to have a bottle of "Ku"mmel", which is a caraway liqueur (think spiked rye bread), and the unrounding of high front vowels is of course quite common. I don't know enough about PA D(e)ut(s)ch to know if unrounding is a symptom of that dialect as it is of Yiddish (e.g. "shtick"). Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:51:14 -0500 From: "Joseph C. Salmons" jsalmons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick Larry Horn writes... [T]he unrounding of high front vowels is of course quite common. I don't know enough about PA D(e)ut(s)ch to know if unrounding is a symptom of that dialect as it is of Yiddish (e.g. "shtick"). Yes, it is, but the southern/central dialects where 'Weck' would be used are generally unrounding. We don't even necessarily have to look to Pennsylvania German on this one, since similar German borrowings for cultural items abound across so much of the country. On the other hand, 'Weck' does occur in the west middle/SW German dialect areas that PaGm has grown from. Luanne von Schneidemesser has done lots of really good and interesting work on such German loans in American English and maybe she knows the details of this item. joe salmons ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Aug 1996 to 1 Sep 1996 *********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 454 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. kimmelweck 2. Georgetown discourse conference 3. Pop goes the weasel 4. ODEON--more stuff 5. Journals for free 6. "RUNNING" FOR PRESIDENT--Is this the origin? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 23:30:16 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: kimmelweck On Mon, 2 Sep 1996, Automatic digest processor wrote: Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 10:07:02 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: kimmelwick thanks so much to everyone for the help on "pop goes the weasel". unfortunately, since making the query, i've had the Damned tune going through my head day and night. i hope you were not similarly afflicted. and now for something completely different... in the buffalo, new york region, and no where else that i've ever seen, there is a kind of (bread)roll called a kimmelwick roll. it's a somewhat crusty sandwich roll with coarse salt on the top which i've only seen used for hot roast beef sandwiches (very jus-y), which we call "roast beef on 'wick" (upon which horseradish is the only approved condiment). the wegman's supermarket chain has now spread kimmelwicks across western new york, but when i was a kid, we made a special point on all our visits to niagara falls to get a whole bunch and take them home to freeze (we lived about an hour and a half past the kimmelwick line). can someone tell me: -is the name german or dutch? (i assume german, b/c my german grandmother's picnics featured r.b. on wick, but there are a lot of dutch-descended people in that part of the world too; also, it's not in my german-english dictionary, nor in my english dictionaries) -do they have these things in germany/holland? i.e., is it an imported food or a local invention in the german/dutch community there? (or something else entirely) -does anyone from any other region know the name? -do people from other regions know the food but give it a different name? Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 13:57:57 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: kimmelwick I have just finished a degree in German, and I am fairly certain that it is not German, although it could very well be a German dialect-word. I speak High German, but I cannot understand Bayuvarisch or Alemanisch, etc. to but a minor extent. Regional foods are often named with dialect. i got a private msg from joseph salmons saying that "wecken" is a southern german/austrian word for longish rolls and kuemmel is caraway. this caused me to remember that (a) it is also (perhaps "properly") spelt "-weck" (but in my family, at least, pronounced [wIk]), and (b) there are 2 varieties: the carawayful ones and the carawayless ones (the latter are the ones i like, so i blocked the existence of the other--both have the crushed salt). however, i've never seen one that's oblong--they're always round in my experience. nevertheless, this sounds like a pretty likely etymology. could also be that the far western new york existence of them is linked to a pennsylvania german influence? i don't know. anyone from pennsylvania "dutch" country know of them? Kimmelweck of a kind is now available in the Twin Cities, in a chain called BW3 which specializes in buffalo wings and other buffalo-area foods. I suspect that -- as with "New York City pizza" -- something has been lost in the translation. I've seen "weck" discussed by past and present Buffalo-area residents on the Usenet group alt.culture.ny-upstate. I grew up in the part of New York State where Dutch influence lasted longest (Catskills/Hudson Valley), and never encountered the term there. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 12:42:17 -0400 From: Shari Kendall KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Georgetown discourse conference (conference announcement updated 9/2/96) The Georgetown Linguistics Society presents * DISCOURSE AS MOSAIC * * LINGUISTIC RE/PRODUCTION OF IDENTITIES AND IDEOLOGIES * October 11-13, 1996 Intercultural Center Georgetown University Washington, DC Information on registration and how to contact GLS appears at the end of this message. * SCHEDULE OF PAPERS * Friday, October 11 11:00 Registration opens, Intercultural Center 12:45 - 1:00 Opening remarks 1:00 - 2:00 Shirley Brice Heath, plenary speaker 2:15 - 4:15 Patricia O'Connor, symposium organizer, Speaking for the Other Yuling Pan, Power Recognition in Chinese Official Settings Christina Kakava, Talking at Cross-Purposes: Speaking For and About the Other in Greek Discourse Patricia O'Connor, 'He Gonna Die': Self-Positioning in the Constructed Dialogue of the Other * John T. Clark, "But is 'Pop that Coochie' a Valuable Idea or Information?": How Elite Aspiring Rhetoric Insinuates the Center Hiroko Furo, Agonism Versus Irenicism: Different Frames in American and Japanese Political Discourse Douglas J. Glick, At the Intersection of Language, Ethnicity and Interpretation: Lessons from a Hebrew-Language Television Interview Brian Kleiner, Pseudo-Argument in Talk about Race * Jeff Connor-Linton, What's in a Speech Act?: A Multi-Feature Functional Analysis of Stylistic Variation Andrea Tyler & Lucy Pickering, Examining Cross-Cultural Miscommunication: A Case for a Multi-Dimensional Discourse Framework Gus M. Habermann, The Discourse of Indoctrination: A Test of Language Socialization Theories? Margaret Luebs, Transcribing Discourse, Transcribing Ideology 4:30 - 6:30 Amy Sheldon, organizer, Managing Identities and Negotiating Relationships R. Keith Sawyer, Gender Differences in Participant Frameworks and Footing in Preschool Play Discourse Deborah Schiffrin, Topic and Ideology in Argument Amy Sheldon, The Complementary use of Verbal and Nonverbal Resources in Children's Negotiation of Social Play * Clare MacMartin & Linda A. Wood, The Problematics of Respectability: Co-Constructing a Marginalized Identity Stephanie Lindemann, Didar Akar, Jill D. Dowdy, Ana Cristina Ostermann, John Swales & Jens Turp, A Genre of Last Resort: Letters to the TMJ Association Susan Herring, Beyond "Free Speech" on the Internet Shi-Xu, Common Sense and Ideologies * Katerie Gladdys, Artist, Object, Audience: Constructing Linguistic Identity in a Formal Speech Situation Randi A. Engle, The Collaborative Construction of Knowledge Transmission Events: The Case of Instructional Explanations Between Peers Boyd Davis & Jeutonne P. Brewer, The Individual Voice in Electronic Discourse Melanie Nunemaker Moll & Agnes Bolonyai, Ways of Framing: The Assignment of Thematic Roles in a Business Meeting 6:45 - 7:45 Livia Polanyi, plenary speaker 8:00 - 10:00 Reception, Intercultural Center Galleria Saturday, October 12 9:00 - 10:00 Marcyliena Morgan, plenary speaker 10:15 - 12:15 Deborah Tannen, symposium organizer, The Scope of Discourse Marianne Mithun, The Discourse Shaping of Grammar Wallace Chafe, What We Can Learn From Repeated Tellings of the Same Experience A. L. Becker, Wordbuilding and Textbuilding * Jeff Deby & Kathleen Wood, symposium organizers, The Lavender Mosaic: Lesbian and Gay Identities and Ideologies Jeff Deby, Coming-Out Stories as Opportunities for Negotiating Identity Rudolf Gaudio, "Out in the Open" Without "Coming Out": Queer Narratives from Nigerian Hausaland Shari Kendall, Conflicting Ideologies in the News Coverage of Salt Lake City's Ban on Gay and Lesbian Clubs in Public Schools Kathleen Wood, The Contribution of Coherence in the Narrative Construction of Identity in Lesbian Electronic Mail Coming Out Stories * Donna L. Lillian, The War Against Diversity: Homogenizing Canada Through Discursive Manipulation Robin Shoaps, Rush Limbaugh as Rhetor: The Use of Transposition in Constructing and Accessing a Rhetoric of 'Common Sense' Atsuko Honda, Institutional and Cultural Constraints on Conflict in Japanese Television Discussions Christina Wasson, "Your Candor would be Appreciated": Performing Contradictory Identities in Business Meetings 12:15 - 2:15 Lunch Livia Polanyi, workshop, Formal Methods in Discourse Analysis (additional fee, see registration) 2:15 - 4:15 Anne Goodfellow, Language, Culture, and Identity: Social and Cultural Aspects of Language Use in Two Kwak'wala-speaking Communities Alice Chu, "'What do you want me to say--'Chinese'?": Negotiating Ethnic Identities in a Chinese Restaurant Adrienne Lo, She's not a peanut!: Contesting Identities in Asian- American Discourse Mary Bucholtz, Marking Black: The Construction of White Identities through African American Vernacular English * Mary Shapiro, Encouraged and Discouraged Registers: Style-Shifting Among Medics Branca Telles Ribeiro, Listeners and Listening in Psychiatric Interviews Anita Pomerantz, When the Supervising Physician Sees the Intern's Patient: It's a Risky Business Adrienne Chambon, Self/Other Interaction: Identity Transformation in Therapeutic Conversation 2:15 - 6:30 (two-session symposium: 2:15-4:15 & 4:30-6:30) Charlotte Linde, symposium organizer, Institutional Memory and Individual Identity Robin Kornman, Epic and the Formation of Regional and National Identity: Tibet's Gesar Epic Charlotte Linde, A Framework for the Study of Institutional Memory Norma Mendoza-Denton & Charlotte Linde, Home Girls Remembered: Institutional Memory and Gang Structure Sigrid Mueller, The Institutional Construction of Individual Identity: Women, Language, and Bureaucratic Documentation in Germany Ida Obermann, Institutional Memory in an Alternative Education Movement: Strategies of Textual Reproduction and Challenge 4:30 - 6:30 Anthony Berkley, Linguistic Awareness and Ideological Incorporation: The Construction of "Errors" In Maya Language Revival Donna Patrick, Language Choice, Social Boundaries and Identity in Arctic Quebec Edward A. Miner, Representations of Literacy in the Ugandan Press Alexander D. Hoyt, Croatian as an Indicator of Identity * Rita Simpson, Metapragmatic Discourse and the Ideology of Impolite Pronouns in Thai Karen L. Adams & Anne Winter, Group and Individual Identity in Gang Graffiti Barbara G. Hoffman, Occult Power and Noun Phrases in Mande Languages Jean Wong, A Sequential Place for Marking Incipient Repair Solution: 'Yeah' in Nonnative Speaker English Conversation 6:45 - 7:45 Susan Philips, plenary speaker Sunday, October 13 9:00 - 10:00 William O'Barr, plenary speaker 10:15 - 12:15 Heidi Hamilton, symposium organizer, Discourse in Old Age Anne Bower & Helen Black, Identity in Personal Narrative: Dialogue With God Heidi Hamilton, "I have become the nurse and I don't like it very much": Changing Identities Within the Aging Family Toshiko Hamaguchi, "Maybe that's why I became so lazy": Construction of Identities in a Life Story Pam Saunders, "I would forget my head if it wasn't screwed on": An Analysis of How Patients Save Face in Clinical Examinations Vai Ramanathan, Reflexive Researching in Alzheimer Narrative Interactions * Nastia Snider, The Man is the Boss on the Dance Floor: Teasing in a Country Dance Lesson Iris E.W.M. Bogaers, Managing Gender Through Meta-talk Susan Berk-Seligson, Conversational Support Work: Marker of Gender Identity? Colleen Cotter, Text and Identity: Women's Place at the Fourth Estate * Akira Satoh, Direct Speech in Japanese Journalistic Discourse Pekka Kuusisto, Ethnic Homogeneism in Newspapers Stanton Wortham & Michael Locher, Voicing on the News: A Technique for Analyzing Media Bias 12:15 - 2:15 Theme lunches (sign up at conference) 2:15 - 3:45 Susan F. Hirsch, Transforming Gender in Kenyan Islamic Courts: A Role for Linguistic Ideologies Kirstin M. Fredrickson, Intertextuality and the Construction of Ideology in Law Susan Ehrlich, The Construction of "Innocence" in Sexual Assault Trials * John J. Staczek, Linguistic and Cultural Awareness and Identity: Constructions of Self in the Writing of American University Students Kathleen Ferrara, The Narrative (Re)Construction of "True Grit": Internal Dialogue in Danger of Death Stories--Texas Style Deborah Keller-Cohen & Natasha Julius, "...because I'll tell you what, I've had a hellacious life!" * Rachel Nash, Piecing It Together: Nation as Mosaic Nombuso Dlamini, Symbolic Practices and the Construction of Identity in South Africa Alexei Iurchak, The Cynical Reason of Late Socialism: Language, Ideology, and Identity of the Last Soviet Generation 4:00 - 5:00 Judith Irvine, plenary speaker 5:00 - 5:15 Closing remarks TO REGISTER Please send your name and affiliation, mailing and e-mail addresses, telephone number, and a check made payable to "Georgetown University" to the address below. Registration Fees: (before September 20) $20.00 for students, $35.00 for non-students; (after September 20) $30.00 for students, $45.00 for non- students; (Georgetown University students) no fee. Registration fee for Livia Polanyi's workshop, Formal Methods in Discourse Analysis: $40.00. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION GLS 1996 Department of Linguistics Georgetown University Box 571051 Washington DC 20057-1051 Telephone: (202) 687-6166 E-mail: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu World Wide Web: http://www.georgetown.edu/departments/linguistics/gls96/gls96.html end of message ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 15:58:50 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Pop goes the weasel Just to share a fuller picture, here's the response of an 80ish first-generation American, raised in Los Angeles, CA. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Maggie Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 A half a pound of two-penny soap, A half a pound of treacle. That's the way the money goes. Pop, goes the weasel. Refrain: Whenever - - - - 's out of the house And the monkey's on the table Take a stick and knock him off. Pop, goes the weasel. 2 A penny for a spool of thread, A penny for a needle. That's the way the money goes. Pop, goes the weasel. The refrain tune is different from the verse, starting an octave higher. ======================================================================= ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 19:06:12 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: ODEON--more stuff Thanks. One can only try and ask about these things. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 18:53:01 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Journals for free i have a lot of journals I will have to pitch out. These are not complete sets, but I have a lot of issues of LANGUAGE going back to 1970 or so, and most of Language in Society from the 80s and maybe early 90s. If anyone wants any of this stuff we can discuss arrangements. Please forward to LINGUIST etc. Tim Frazer Western Ill. Univ. macomb, Illinois 61455 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Sep 1996 21:01:13 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "RUNNING" FOR PRESIDENT--Is this the origin? (I think the previous message went out to the wrong address--sorry.) Why do Americans "run" for President? Why don't they "sit" or "stand" for office? Why "run"? H. L. Mencken, in THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE, pg. 245, states that "A member of Parliament, if he be one who respects the integrity of his mother-tongue, does not _run_ for office; he _stands_. But of late the American _to run_ has been coming in, and not long ago an M.P. wrote to me: 'If I think of my own _candidature_ (_candidacy_), I say _'I ran,'_' etc. An English candidate is not _nominated_, but _adopted_. If he _stands_ successfully, he _sits_ at Westminster, and is a _sitting member_." Does anyone know why we "run"? "Running mate" came later; does anyone have a "sitting mate"? This item, which MAY OR MAY NOT be helpful, comes from the political humor publication THE JUDGE, vol. 6, no. 146, pg. 13, col. 1, August 2, 1884: "Running" for the Presidency. "YOUNG AMERICA" wants to know why we speak of a candidate "running" for the Presidency. The term has its origin, my son, in a famous Indian amusement called "running the guantlet." In this exciting national game the citizens ranged themselves into two lines, facing each other, each free and independent voter and his wife being armed with clubs, stones, hickory "gads," black-snake mule whips, and one thing and another. Down between these lines the candidate started on the livliest run his eager legs could do, and the citizens with great enthusiasm kept him up to his work by letting him have it whenever they could reach him as he sailed. Every time he received an unusual thump, that raised a welt like a stuffed snake or laid the hide open to the bone, or erected a prussian blue lamp as big as a hen's egg, the entire convention howled with delight and the delegates earnestly besought each other to give him another one just like it in the same place. If the candidate got to the end of the course alive, everybody treated him with the greatest consideration, shook hands with him and asked him to have something with them, expressing not only their forgiving willingness, but their most magnanimous anxiety to have anything with him, and the man who had given him the awfullest lick, right across the misery, with a mahogany club trimmed with spikes, came right up and assured him that in all their differences of opinion during the cause he had ever maintained the profoundest respect and unselfish affection for the candidate personally, and was now willing to accept the collectorship of Gnu Jahrk [New York-ed.] or the mission at Senzhames to prove it. "But you don't see any similarity or connection between that sort of thing and running for President?" "Young man, get thee to a kindergarten! You have deceived me. You said in your letter that you were eleven years old. I see that you are only three-and-a-half. Go! to a kindergarten go!"--BOB BURDETTE. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Sep 1996 to 2 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 347 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. third verse 2. kimmelwick (4) 3. Kimmelweck (3) 4. Journals for free (2) 5. No subject given ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 08:23:26 -0600 From: Ellen Johnson EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: third verse If you can stand it, I know another verse to the song. It comes from one of my son's tapes and if you'd heard it as many times as I have, you'd know it by heart, too. You can try to sew and sew And never make something regal So roll it up and let it go Pop goes the weasel Ellen Johnson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:21:23 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick In message Sun, 1 Sep 1996 21:51:14 -0500, "Joseph C. Salmons" jsalmons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU writes: Yes, it is, but the southern/central dialects where 'Weck' would be used are generally unrounding. We don't even necessarily have to look to Pennsylvania German on this one, since similar German borrowings for cultural items abound across so much of the country. On the other hand, 'Weck' does occur in the west middle/SW German dialect areas that PaGm has grown from. Luanne von Schneidemesser has done lots of really good and interesting work on such German loans in American English and maybe she knows the details of this item. joe salmons Thanks, Joe. Eichhoff in his "Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangsprachen" shows 'Weck' to be in use in southwest Germany, and well up into Hesse. I remember older people in Giessen (north of Frankfurt) using the term when I was doing my dissertation fieldwork. And yes, as Larry mentioned, kimmel comes from German 'Ku"mmel' meaning caraway. DARE, vol. III, which should be available in your local bookstores in December, just in time for Christmas buying (plug, plug), has an entry under 'kimmelweck' (with a x-ref to 'beef on weck' vol. I). Defined as "A caraway roll, used esp for a beef sandwich," its label is wNY, esp Buffalo. The earliest quote is from 1952, Marian Tracy, Coast to Coast Cookery. Luanne _________________ Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 15:35:51 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: kimmelwick DARE, vol. III, which should be available in your local bookstores in December, just in time for Christmas buying (plug, plug), has an entry under 'kimmelweck' (with a x-ref to 'beef on weck' vol. I). Defined as "A caraway roll, used esp for a beef sandwich," its label is wNY, esp Buffalo. The earliest quote is from 1952, Marian Tracy, Coast to Coast Cookery. ok, but i think today that the salt is the defining characteristic, since we go to the bakery and order "kimmelwecks without caraway" and get rolls with salt on top. i didn't know that kimmelwecks could have caraway until wegman's started selling them, since the bakery we got them from in lewiston had ones w/o caraway called "kimmelweck". lynne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:50:52 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick In message Tue, 3 Sep 1996 21:33:52 GMT + 2:00, "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za writes: DARE, vol. III, which should be available in your local bookstores in December, just in time for Christmas buying (plug, plug), has an entry under 'kimmelweck' (with a x-ref to 'beef on weck' vol. I). Defined as "A caraway roll, used esp for a beef sandwich," its label is wNY, esp Buffalo. The earliest quote is from 1952, Marian Tracy, Coast to Coast Cookery. ok, but i think today that the salt is the defining characteristic, since we go to the bakery and order "kimmelwecks without caraway" and get rolls with salt on top. i didn't know that kimmelwecks could have caraway until wegman's started selling them, since the bakery we got them from in lewiston had ones w/o caraway called "kimmelweck". lynne Both the Tracy quot and a 1982 letter say that kimmelweck are crusty rolls with caraway and coarse salt on top. One informant doesn't specify, and the other letter just says with seeds on top. ________________ Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 13:30:14 PDT From: "//www.usa.net/~ague" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: Kimmelweck The internet provided a couple of references to "kimmelweck". From a home page on Buffalo (NY) English: BEEF ON WECK - a roast beef sandwich on a salty kimmelweck roll. A Beef on Weck is considered a local delicacy, ranking with chicken wings, char-broiled hot dogs and Texas Hots. BEEF ON WICK - alternative spelling and pronunciation of Beef on Weck, usually used by older Buffalonians and eastern suburbanites. From a home page containing a menu of a sports bar in Columbia, SC: Q. WHAT 'S A WECK! A. A delicious Kaiser Roll with Salt and Caraway Seeds on top All sandwiches served with lettuce , tomato, onion and pickle spear. ROLL CHOICES "We bake our own rolls!" Kimmel "Weck," Kaiser or Sesame Seed CHEESE CHOICES Cheddar, Mozzarella, Swiss or Jalapeno BURGER-ON-WECK (Prices listed as 1/4 lb. or 1/2 lb.) Burger-on Weck...........................................1.99 2.99 ("possibly the best burger in America") Burger-on-Weck with choice of cheese only.....2.99 3.29 Burger-on-Weck with mushrooms only.............2.49 3.49 Bacon Burger-on-Weck-bacon only................2.49 3.49 Bacon Cheese Burger-on-Weck...................2.79 3.79 -strips of bacon and choice of cheese Mushroom Burger-on-Weck...........................2.79 3.79 -mushrooms and choice of cheese Triple Cheese Burger-on- Weck....................2.79 3.79 -3 slices of cheese Black-n-Bleu Burger-on-Weck.......................2.79 3.79 "blackened" and with bleu cheese Western Burger-on-Weck................................2.79 3.79 -bbq sauce, strips of bacon and choice of cheese Mex Burger-on-Weck........................................2.19 3.19 -Buffalo Breath chili, jalapenos a nd choice of cheese BUFFALO BEEF-ON-WECK NEW LARGER SIZE: 3 1/2 0z. of thinly sliced roast beef on a German stlye KimmelWeck roll brushed with au jus. Served plain or with your choice of BW-3 Wing Sauce Beef-on-Weck.......................................2.99 Cheese Beef-on-Weck...........................3.29 Mushroom Beef -0n-Weck...................3.79 Bacon Beef-0n-weck.............................3.79 BUFFALO CHICKEN-ON-WECK Tender chagrilled chicken breast served plain or with your choice of BW-3 Wing Sauce. Chicken Breast-on-Weck........................2.99 Chicken Breast -on-Weck w/ cheese....3.29 Cajun Chicken Breast-on-Weck w/ cheese..3.39 Bacon Chicken Breast -on-Weck w/ cheese..3.79 Black-n-Bleu Chicken Breast -on-Weck...........3.79 Western Chicken -on-Weck w/cheese..............3.79 (Chicken Breast sandwich is 182 calories, 98% fat free) FISH 'ON' WECK A tender and lightly battered cod fillet sandwich served on your choice of roll with a side of tartar sauce . . $2.99 TUNA 'on' WECK Tuna Salad served on your choice of roll . . . . $2.69 BBQ PORK'on'WECK Tender pork, marinated in a smokey, spicy bbq-sauce. Try it on a Weck! . . . . . . . . 2.99 (with side of slaw............3.68 ) -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 16:41:42 -0400 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU Subject: Re: Kimmelweck In Buffalo in 1964, nary a suburbanite in sight, it was beef on wick, no weck---weck was funny because that's what they said in Cleveland. The beef on wick of canonic reference was that served at Bai-Lo's -- corner of Bailey and Lovejoy, and the standing perception was that no person could eat more than one of them. Not even me, as it turned out. I tip my funny hat to a true masterpiece of American gourmandise. RK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 17:25:04 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick Surely this is not a mysterious process (particualrly when a foreign word is involved). To doubt it would be to suggest that the etymology of Coca-Cola is suopect since there is no longer any coke (cocaine) in Coke. Now Coke (at least in Louisville) doesn't even have to be 'cola.' Even 7-Up is a kind of 'coke.' By the way, my experience in W. New York suggests that 'hard roll' or 'bun' (even without salt, not to mention caraway) could be offered in 'Beef on Wick.' Dennis (who prefers hot wings to wicks from the Buffalo kitchen). DARE, vol. III, which should be available in your local bookstores in December, just in time for Christmas buying (plug, plug), has an entry under 'kimmelweck' (with a x-ref to 'beef on weck' vol. I). Defined as "A caraway roll, used esp for a beef sandwich," its label is wNY, esp Buffalo. The earliest quote is from 1952, Marian Tracy, Coast to Coast Cookery. ok, but i think today that the salt is the defining characteristic, since we go to the bakery and order "kimmelwecks without caraway" and get rolls with salt on top. i didn't know that kimmelwecks could have caraway until wegman's started selling them, since the bakery we got them from in lewiston had ones w/o caraway called "kimmelweck". lynne Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 14:57:17 -0800 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: Journals for free You've probably had a lot of offers, but I would love to take the old L in S's off your hands, and of course I'd happily pay postage. Please let me know if they're still available. Best, Mary Bucholtz Department of Linguistics University of California, Berkeley bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:53:34 +0900 From: Kenichirou Murashima mura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RES.OTARU-UC.AC.JP Subject: Re: Journals for free Already you probably have had a lot of contact from many schlars. I'd love to have all Language in Society you will pitch out. Of course I will pay postage myself. Could you please let me know if I can have them and how postage cost. Ken Murashima 1-24-1 Midori Otaru, Hokkaido, 047 Japan mura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]res.otaru-uc.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:05:11 +0900 From: Kenichirou Murashima mura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RES.OTARU-UC.AC.JP Subject: No subject given ADS-L members I am sorry I sent a personal letter to ADS-L mailing-lists. Ken Murashima mura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]res.otaru-uc.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Sep 1996 22:24:30 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Kimmelweck This menu sure makes ME hungry for one of those wecks, with or without caraway. (I love the tuna 'on' weck and pork 'on' weck, with those classic unattributed prep quotes, but I think I'll take the black 'n' blue weck myself.) As for the reanalysis of 'kimmelweck' as containing obligatory salt (if that) and optional caraway, as Dennis P. notes, this is the typical pattern when transparency is lost, even within a language, much less for borrowings. It's an instance of semantic shift as described by Stern (1931) and other such works, which I like to diagram as A-- A(B)-- (A)B-- B, whose locus classicus is the reanalysis of BEAD 'prayer' -- 'prayer kept track of with little wooden balls' -- 'little wooden balls used to keep track of prayers' -- 'little (wooden) balls'. Another nice one is HORN, where the eponymous musical instrument typically bears as little connection to the original animal head ornament as the kimmelweck evidently does to caraway seeds. --Larry Horn ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Sep 1996 to 3 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 20 messages totalling 618 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Kimmelweck 2. American accent (was: Kimmelweck) (5) 3. pop goes the weasel (2) 4. American accent (2) 5. "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) (2) 6. weasels a-poppin'--and monkeys 7. "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") (2) 8. Monkey business for Lynne 9. More Monkey business for Lynne 10. Barefoot and Pregnant 11. RE Re: "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") 12. Monkey business for Lynne -Reply ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 00:25:12 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: Kimmelweck Okay, okay, we've determined where the word comes from and made several of you non-vegetarians hungry. I think it's safe to say we've run the topic... Since this is the American Dialect Soc, I'd like to tell y'all why I'm here, and see if I get an answer... I just moved back from Europe. Until I went, I never noticed it, but when I was in Europe, I could distinctly tell an American accent anywhere... HOW do you describe an Ami accent? The only word I can find that's close is twangy. We do have regional accents, but there is also a common accent... Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:04:47 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) Jason Wilke asks: I just moved back from Europe. Until I went, I never noticed it, but when I was in Europe, I could distinctly tell an American accent anywhere... HOW do you describe an Ami accent? The only word I can find that's close is twangy. We do have regional accents, but there is also a common accent... I'd put our retroflexed or humped /r/ at or near the top of the list. In any European language it stands out like a mule in a ballroom. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:02:45 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) jason asked: HOW do you describe an Ami accent? The only word I can find that's close is twangy. We do have regional accents, but there is also a common accent... the way i notice americans here is that they're the loudest people in restaurants. (but yesterday i was mistaken for a scot--a new one for me.) any time i try to come up with a generalization to distinguish american from british accents, i think of exceptions--regions in britain or america that have the feature i've believed characteristic of the other country. but one that could be related to the notion of "twanginess" is the american retention (in most cases i believe it's retention and not invention--but i may be corrected) of the [ae] vowel in certain contexts such as before "th", "s", and "nC"s--as in _bath_, _pass_, _france_, _can't_, and in some regions _aunt_. (strangely, though, we lost the [ae] in some places like _father_ and to say _that_ with the "twang" sounds scottish. or kennedyesque.) when trying to speak other languages, americans often put [ae] where they're not supposed to--so this feature of americans could stand out on the continent as well as in england. the other thing that americans tend to do in other languages is off- gliding their vowels--making them sound pretty sloppy in the target language and supporting the notion that americans (from all regions) drawl. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 11:10:15 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) sorry, should've proofed my last note better: (strangely, though, we lost the [ae] in some places like _father_ and to say _that_ with the "twang" sounds scottish. or kennedyesque.) the "that" is erroneously "underlined". to say _father_ with an [ae] sounds scottish. (of course you say _that_ with an [ae]--at least most of us do.) sorry, lynne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:04:45 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel Dear Duane, It's "The monkey said it was all in fun/...." At 11:02 AM 8/31/96 PDT, you wrote: --- On Sat, 31 Aug 1996 09:28:41 -0400 "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA wrote: can anyone fill in the 3rd line of the version of "pop goes the weasel" that appears below (this is the one i learned as a kid): all around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel da-da da-da da dadada da pop! goes the weasel. also, i'd be interested to hear other versions of the song. the host of the show has supplied this one: half a pound of tuppenny rice half a pound of treacle that's the way the money goes (not enough syllables?) pop goes the weasel and if anyone knows what "pop goes the weasel" refers to, i'd be happy to hear. Reading the subsequent posts, there may be some scrambling of verses. But to answer a couple of questions: "That's the way the money goes" was part of my childhood version, with "money" spaced out as muh-uh-nee. This fits in with the origins of the ditty. My understanding is that it came from the hatters trade (though it may have been cobblers). A weasel is one of the tools of the trade, and "pop" is slang for pawning something. The "mulberry bush" may refer to a fondness for gin. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. Elizabeth Gibbens Research Assistant Mr. William Safire, The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 12:36:15 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Re: American accent Living in New York City, the topic of language and accent always comes up= .=20 I have found that the English, Irish, Scots and the one Welsh man I know = use=20 the word "flat" to describe the American accent. As a group, they also te= nd=20 to believe that we use simpler, more monosyllabic vocabulary. There's something else, though. It's that innate American ability to mang= le any other language they try to speak, although I should add that there is= some=20 anecdotal evidence that suggest to me that, well, it's a lasting remnant = of our British heritage.=20 Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 09:58:31 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Mark Mandel wrote: Jason Wilke asks: I just moved back from Europe. Until I went, I never noticed it, but when I was in Europe, I could distinctly tell an American accent anywhere... HOW do you describe an Ami accent? The only word I can find that's close is twangy. We do have regional accents, but there is also a common accent... I'd put our retroflexed or humped /r/ at or near the top of the list. In any European language it stands out like a mule in a ballroom. Well, not quite "any," since it is right at home in Dutch. However, an American speaking Dutch would still stand out if he or she used it indiscriminately, since in Dutch it is restricted to certain environments. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:56:11 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: American accent The French have a reputation, only partly deserved, of cringing whenever an American accent is within earshot. A lot of this stuff is pragmatic, though. Americans can often be spotted in the distance, long before they open their mouths, by their styles, the way they walk and act (I know that all of this is hopelessly subjective, so please don't ask me to explain this last remark). So the situation is already set up for a particular reaction to American speech habits, which have become stigmatized by association with other things rather than with the particular way French phonology is contorted, which of course varies widely depending on the individual and his/her background in French. My French is good enough that I never got anything but compliments for nine years that I spent in France. So I am a good counter-example to the generalization, but in a way that underlines the strength of perceptions: I was rarely ever pegged by the French as having an "American accent"; they always thought I was from England or Belgium or someplace else--and occasionally, they even thought I was French-- because Americans have a reputation over there for not being able to speak French very well. One other note of interest, Americans over there are often said to have a nasalized accent. This seems strange coming from a people whose language includes contrastive nasals, but, in fact, that may be part of the explanation of this perception. Americans can flame away with nasality overlaying all their vowels without even being aware of it, whereas the French, for whom it phonemically contrastive, are thereby more perceptually sensitive to it. But then Americans say the same thing about the French sometimes because of all the nasal vowels they hear punctuating French speech at regular intervals. So the perception works both ways, but not necessarily for the same reasons. Just a theory. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:20:47 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM 0903.2325 [...] I just moved back from Europe. Until I went, I never noticed it, but when I was in Europe, I could distinctly tell an American accent anywhere... HOW do you describe an Ami accent? [..] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:39:39 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) --- On Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:20:47 -0500 Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM w= rote: BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? It's German slang, though it might also occur in other languages. Pronoun= ced=20 AH-mee. In Germany the word seldom stands alone, but is most often seen a= s=20 part of the phrase "bl=FCte Ami". ------------------------------------- Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:47:03 -0600 From: POLSKY ELLEN S Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU Subject: Re: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) What about the tapping of /t/ and /d/ between vowels (after a stressed vowel)? Do they do that in other parts of the world? Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:17:37 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: weasels a-poppin'--and monkeys thanks for all the info you-all sent me on pop goes the weasel. am now summarizing it for my notes and have noticed a gap. once one knows the hat-making-tool-pawning meaning of "pop goes the weasel" all the older verses (i.e. those that haven't animated the weasel) make sense, except for the refrain, which introduces the monkey: ev'ry night when i come home // whenever X's out of the house (and) the monkey's on the table take a stick and knock him off pop goes the weasel. were monkeys popular pets among london hatmakers at some point, or is this another bit of slang? the only era/place appropriate meaning of "monkey" in partridge's slang dictionary is "500 pounds sterling", which seems an unlikely thing to want to knock off the table if you have to pop your weasel. ideas welcome. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:09:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") Duane Campbell wrote: It's German slang, though it might also occur in other languages. Pronoun# ced#20 AH-mee. In Germany the word seldom stands alone, but is most often seen a# s#20 part of the phrase "bl#FCte Ami". Well, he didn't write exactly that. I've substituted pound signs ("#") for the equal signs ("=") that doubtless he didn't write either but that were probably inserted by his mailer, along with some of the characters that followed them.* I don't know what the %^&*() most of them are for, but they seem to be related to meaningless readjustments of the margin. But the last one, in the middle of the German phrase, seems to go with "FC", which is hexadecimal for superscript "n" (or lowercase Greek eta) in PC-ASCII u-umlaut in Windows probably more and different things in Macintosh and Unix God-knows-what in other systems. u-umlaut is the likeliest reading here, but it does take deciphering. A general plea: PLEASE don't use accented letters on this list, or any other characters that aren't on a standard keyboard. You never can tell what's going to happen to them before they reach other people's screens, but you can safely bet that most of the time it won't be good. Available alternatives in this case include "blute Ami" (umlaut over u) "blu"te Ami" (that's an umlaut) "bluete Ami" and even maybe, Heaven help us, "bl u umlaut te Ami" * I made the substitution because Duane's mailer, and probably some others' as well, may be smart enough to take it as well as dishing it out, and in that case he and they wouldn't have any idea what I'm talking about. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 16:50:11 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") --- On Wed, 04 Sep 1996 16:09:30 -0500 Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com wrote: PLEASE don't use accented letters on this list, or any other characters that aren't on a standard keyboard. Sorry, folks. Guess I'm just a bluete Ami. Aside from the umlaut, though, I must say that I have never seen a message I posted to any list come back looking quite like that -- with the line end commands and such. Several other messages that have come to me from the ADS-L recently have had the same thing. Strange. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:43:54 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Monkey business for Lynne I'd venture to guess that in this context monkey = liquor bottle, although there are other possibilities. Beale's (1984:748) _Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English..._ gives: (1) as a second sense of "monkey" (c. 1867): "a 'vessel' i.e. a container in which a mess receives its full amount of grog" (as in "suck the monkey" below); (2) as a seventh sense (c. 1889) "a small bustle or dress-improver"; (3) as an eighth sense (c. 1812) "a [prison] padlock", and (4) as a ninth sense (n.d.) a mortgage (as in "monkey on the house). (1) appears to be of nautical origin. According to Farmer's and Henley's (1965:335) _Slang and Its Analogues_, "to suck the monkey" means: (a) "to drink rum out of cocoa-nuts, emptied of milk and filled with spirits"; (b) "to [drink] liquor from a cask through a gimlet hole with a straw", and (c) "to drink from the [whisky] bottle". This same source notes that (c. 1856) "a monkey's pay" is "more kicks [monkey business] than halfpence." Cromie's (1811:K12) _Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue: A Dictionary of Buckish Slang, University Wit, and Pickpocket Eloquence_ (!) gives the same definition of "monkey's pay" under "monkey's allowance", and also notes that "to suck the monkey" is "to suck or draw wine, or any other liquor, privately out of a cask, by means of a straw or tube". I hope this helps, Lynne. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Maggie Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 18:56:49 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: More Monkey business for Lynne I forgot to mention that (c. 1879) "monkey" was also a term of real or affected displeasure and, especially, endearment (and still is; it's what my own parents called me). Farmer and Henley (1965:334) give this example from Ruskin's _Letter to Young Girls_: "Serve the poor, but, for your lives, you little monkeys, don't preach to them." Maggie =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Maggie Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:03:35 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Barefoot and Pregnant On another list we are idly wondering about the origin and history of=20 "barefoot and pregnant". Any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:12:59 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") Yeah, those line endings are due to some systems (probably the listserv machine itself) having problems with the MIME format. In my case, I've been playing around with MIME because a lot of recipients complain that my messages don't have line breaks if I don't use MIME. So far the votes are heavily in favor of not minding the lack of line breaks if we can only get rid of those annoying MIME-generated characters. I've been trying to get in the habit of putting manual line breaks, but... Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 19:30:44 -0900 From: Chris Coolidge ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: hi all, i'm about to embark on my career in radio, on an south african broadcasting corp. write-in language show, "word of mouth", in which i will get to fight off the prescriptivist english speakers here who are worried that other people are ruining their language (i can't imagine anyone's going to take an american seriously on this). (maybe it won't be a career if it goes badly!) i've just been faxed the topics i have to research for this batch of shows, and will probably bother you all more than once with queries if i find my reference sources lacking, but here's one off the top. can anyone fill in the 3rd line of the version of "pop goes the weasel" that appears below (this is the one i learned as a kid): all around the mulberry bush the monkey chased the weasel da-da da-da da dadada da pop! goes the weasel. also, i'd be interested to hear other versions of the song. the host of the show has supplied this one: half a pound of tuppenny rice half a pound of treacle that's the way the money goes (not enough syllables?) pop goes the weasel and if anyone knows what "pop goes the weasel" refers to, i'd be happy to hear. thanks, lynne Third line: The monkey thought is was all in fun Alternative second verse A penny for a spool of thread A penny for a needle That's the way the money goes, etc. (Why on earth do I remember these things?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:39:35 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Monkey business for Lynne -Reply Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu 0904.1743 writes: I'd venture to guess that in this context monkey = liquor bottle, although there are other possibilities. Beale's (1984:748) _Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English..._ gives: (1) as a second sense of "monkey" (c. 1867): "a 'vessel' i.e. a container in which a mess receives its full amount of grog" (as in "suck the monkey" below); [...] (1) appears to be of nautical origin. According to Farmer's and Henley's (1965:335) _Slang and Its Analogues_, "to suck the monkey" means: (a) "to drink rum out of cocoa-nuts, emptied of milk and filled with spirits"; (b) "to [drink] liquor from a cask through a gimlet hole with a straw", and (c) "to drink from the [whisky] bottle". I've a strong hunch that (a) is the original sense of "suck the monkey". The best way to pierce a coconut's inner shell (the hard fibrous one, which is what we who harvest them in supermarkets normally see) is through one of the three dark, roughly circular spots clustered at one end, which are said (and I agree) to resemble a monkey's face (O-mouth and two big eyes). Memory says my source is _The Joy of Cooking_. Jeez, I hope I can finish this message and get it out this time. Last time I tried, I interrupted myself to adjust the sound volume... and the $%^&* Windows 95 (which I do not love) got stuck in a loop telling me some pathname was bad, and I had to kill the mail task. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Sep 1996 to 4 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 21 messages totalling 499 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American accent 2. "Ami" (3) 3. "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") 4. Barefoot and Pregnant (2) 5. "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) (3) 6. barefoot & pregnant 7. wing and a prayer (5) 8. Journals 9. Re[2]: Journals 10. Re[3]: Journals 11. kimmelwick 12. A wing and a prayer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:01:20 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: American accent I like Mike's answer. I speak about 7 languages. When I was in Europe, most French and German people that didn't know me thought at first that I too was English. I also agree that the average American can be spotted before opening his/her mouth, as I have done it myself many times. That is exactly what prompted me to ask my question in the first place... Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:08:54 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: "Ami" BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? I have been living in Germany. That's a colloquial term for Ami's in Germany. It's not derrogatory. I just moved back from Europe. Until I went, I never noticed it, but when I was in Europe, I could distinctly tell an American accent anywhere... HOW do you describe an Ami accent? [..] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:26:02 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: "=" wrongs (was: "Ami") PLEASE don't use accented letters on this list, or any other characters that aren't on a standard keyboard. Sorry, folks. Guess I'm just a bluete Ami. Aside from the umlaut, though, I must say that I have never seen a message I posted to any list come back looking quite like that -- with the line end commands and such. Several other messages that have come to me from the ADS-L recently have had the same thing. Strange. I must clarify that there are different words in question, neithre of which have I ever heard used with "Ami". Bloede meas stupid or ignorant. Blutig means bloody (although in the literal sense and has no derrogatory slang meaning). The oe is the keyboard approximation of an umlaut. I can assure you that there is no derrogatory meaning in the term Ami. It was used by friends -- CLOSE friends -- referring to me -- in front of me. You may calm your jets. Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:28:42 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: Barefoot and Pregnant On another list we are idly wondering about the origin and history of=20 "barefoot and pregnant". Any ideas? Barefoot is a definite symbol of poverty, or lack of money. They idea is that the woman stays at home not earning money of her own. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:13:08 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? It's German slang, though it might also occur in other languages. Pronou AH-mee. In Germany the word seldom stands alone, but is most often seen a= part of the phrase "bl=FCte Ami". I don't know what was blocked out my email, but I always heard the term on its own. It was never joined. I'm presuming you're saying it was "bloede", but that was not the case. When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ISP? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:15:35 -0400 From: Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLAZIE.COM Subject: Re: Barefoot and Pregnant On another list we are idly wondering about the origin and history of=20 "barefoot and pregnant". Any ideas? Barefoot is a definite symbol of poverty, or lack of money. They idea is that the woman stays at home not earning money of her own. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com Barefoot is a symbol of poverty, but it is only part of the message. I have been hearing this expression since I was a teenager. It pops up wherever the "boys" get together and the talk turns to women, especially one who has acted in an uppity manner. It is almost always used as a form of braggadocio - "I keep my old lady barefoot and pregnant", or as a form of advice - "What you've got to do with that little gal is keep her barefoot and pregnant." I suspect, because of the nature of the expression and the background of the people I have heard using it, that it originated in the South. The whole of the message it imparts is about control. To keep a woman barefoot and pregnant means to keep her busy, to demand sexual compliance, and to deprive her of the resources needed to change the situation or to leave. Pregannt is happy and busy, barefoot is being unable to run away. The expression is almost always used in discussions when one of the males is complaining about his wife's/girlfriend's behavior. Usually she is being demanding, complains, nags, or otherwise wants the guy to do something he doesn't want to. The message may be a bit more subtle as well. It is not acceptable, even among less civilized men, to suggest to your buddy that the solution is to go home and slap the woman around until she comes to her senses. But by urging the man to take total control of the relationship and to set the guidelines for behavior, it probably does, at least subconciously, legitimize more agressive attempts to impose one's will. My concern is the casual way this sort of expression is accepted as just one of those good old boyisms that we seem to be so tolerant of as a society, as if because they were cute they were harmless. Sorry about the length. This is my first post and after lurking here for a while it is apparent that the more experienced one gets, the more focused the message. Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blazie.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:59:56 -0400 From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) Ami (= American) stands alongside Uni (= university) pronounced [uni] as you'd expect. . . the first two syllables of Universitaet . I wonder if the short form of Ami was influenced by Uni? db ________________________________________________________________________ David Bergdahl tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:28:41 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: barefoot & pregnant In my long-lost youth I knew this expression as "keep her barefoot in winter and pregnant in summer", and I supposed the idea was that this is how you keep your wife from running around. It must be a northern variation, as being barefoot in the winter in Florida, say, would not be much of a deterrent. E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 07:33:22 -0500 From: "Joseph C. Salmons" jsalmons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "Ami" (was: Kimmelweck) Ami (= American) stands alongside Uni (= university) pronounced [uni] as you'd expect. . . the first two syllables of Universitaet . I wonder if the short form of Ami was influenced by Uni? db No, this is a general pattern of clipping in contemporary German. So, you get dozens of forms like 'Mutti' for 'mom' (from Mutter), 'Profi' for 'pro- fessional', 'Sozi' for 'socialist', 'Alki' for 'drunkard', etc., plus a bunch of nicknames like 'Gabi'. There's a similar pattern in -o. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:45:04 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "Ami" In message Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:08:54 -0400, Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM writes: BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? I have been living in Germany. That's a colloquial term for Ami's in Germany. It's not derrogatory. It is considered by many to be derogatory. Luanne Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:42:33 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: "Ami" BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? I have been living in Germany. That's a colloquial term for Ami's in Germany. It's not derrogatory. It is considered by many to be derogatory. Not where I come from. (Freiburg im Breisgau). - Jason Wilke ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:02:27 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: wing and a prayer thanks for the monkey = bottle explanation. if you people weren't so useful, i wouldn't bother you so much. ah, the curse of knowledge. ok, i promise this is my last question in preparation for this radio gig, and after that i'll try to control myself for a while. (although i'll admit that self-control is not my forte.) one listener has written in with a bunch of idioms she wants explained. she gets the wording of a lot of them wrong, so i assume she's an L2 speaker. one of the ones she asks about is "live on a prayer and a wing". now, i've always heard of this as "live on a wing and a prayer." is p&w a known variation, or is this just a mis- remembering on her part? none of the idiom dictionaries or general dictionaries i've consulted (and i've consulted all the ones in the library and as many as i could get away with in the bookstore) have "(live on a) wing and a prayer" (or "prayer & wing", for that matter). does anyone know anything about this idiom and its origins? a nice concise definition would help me too, as i don't know how good my own estimation is. how is: "to live with little more than hope to sustain oneself"? thanks in advance (again), lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:26:50 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: wing and a prayer --- On Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:02:27 -0400 "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA wrote: wing and a prayer" (or "prayer & wing", for that matter). does anyone know anything about this idiom and its origins? a nice concise definition would help me too, as i don't know how good my own estimation is. how is: "to live with little more than hope to sustain oneself"? WWII GI slang. It referred to returning in an airplane that had been badly shot up. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 10:43:47 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: wing and a prayer "live on a prayer and a wing". now, i've always heard of this as "live on a wing and a prayer." does anyone know anything about this idiom and its origins? a nice concise definition would help me too, as i don't know how good my own estimation is. how is: "to live with little more than hope to sustain oneself"? "Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" was the title of a World War II song, which I think Bing Crosby sang. That may also have been the title of the movie in which he sang the song. (I'm going on memory here, and I often "remember" things that didn't actually happen that way.) Of course the pilot makes a safe but exciting crash landing on a runway. Your definition is close to the original application -- if it originated in WW2. It could be older than WW2, from the old barnstorming days in early aviation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 11:00:28 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Journals Thanks to all who wanted my copies of LIS. I was amazed at the response, and I'm sorry I only have one set to give away. I had to pick one person, sort of at random. Sorry i can't asnser everyone individually.. Hey, still got 20 years or so of LANGUAGE!!!! Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 12:06:24 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: wing and a prayer While I can't speak to the origins of this statement, I can testify to having heard it often as I grew up (SW Ohio). I always thought the "wing" was related to another expression, "to wing it," to act spontaneously or to function without some sense of formal knowledge or experience. The "prayer" was a bit more than hope, though; it meant a literal prayer to a power greater than oneself for protection or for auccess in the unknown venture or unchartered territory. Woops, success in the sentence above. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:11:19 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Journals So you can't even GIVE away Language, huh? When I was first divorced I let my membership lapse because I couldn't afford it and never saw the need to renew it. Maybe someday. On the other hand, Allan Metcalf kept me on the ads directory and subsciption list and let me pay in arrears once I got back on my feet. What a sweetie! Let me give you my mailing address. Ellen Johnson Dept. of English Western Kentucky University Bowling Green, KY 42101 Either send them cod or I will sent you a check after they arrive. Thanks so much. BTW, I've been riding to meetings once a week with the chair of the philosophy dept. upstairs :-) I wish I could get to more of them; I need all the help I can get at the moment. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:26:39 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[3]: Journals Oops, I sent a personal message to all of you. Sorry. It's my first try on this new mail software and it has me flustered. Literally red in the face. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 13:44:17 -0600 From: Jason Krantz jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHADOW.SJCSF.EDU Subject: Re: wing and a prayer At 10:43 AM 9/5/96 +1608, you wrote: "live on a prayer and a wing". now, i've always heard of this as "live on a wing and a prayer." does anyone know anything about this idiom and its origins? a nice concise definition would help me too, as i don't know how good my own estimation is. how is: "to live with little more than hope to sustain oneself"? "Comin' in on a Wing and a Prayer" was the title of a World War II song, which I think Bing Crosby sang. That may also have been the title of the movie in which he sang the song. (I'm going on memory here, and I often "remember" things that didn't actually happen that way.) Of course the pilot makes a safe but exciting crash landing on a runway. Your definition is close to the original application -- if it originated in WW2. It could be older than WW2, from the old barnstorming days in early aviation. I think your assessment of the origin of "on a wing and a prayer" is accurate, but I doubt that it originated before WWII. In WWII, it was not unusual for a plane, especially a bomber, to return to its airfield with much of one wing blown off. Photos of planes in this state are truly amazing. Flak, which consisted mostly of anti-aircraft shells, was often the cause of this. The shells had proximity fuses and if one exploded very near a plane, it could easily take off big chunks of a wing. WWI is an unlikely source; anti-aircraft barrages consisted mostly of small arms fire and while bullets can put a lot of holes in an aircraft, it is unlikely that they would take off a wing. Barnstorming seems even less likely a source, since any more-than-minor accident was usually fatal. WWII yielded aircraft that looked incapable of flight, so when these things came in, it looked like they were supported on one side by a wing and on the other by the hopes and prayers of the crew. Regards, Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:26:50 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick On Sun, 1 Sep 1996, Jason Wilke wrote: I have just finished a degree in German, and I am fairly certain that it is not German, although it could very well be a German dialect-word. I speak High German, but I cannot understand Bayuvarisch or Alemanisch, etc. to but a minor extent. Regional foods are often named with dialect. I have a Dutch friend that I could ask, although I can tell you that Danish and Dutch are both similar to German, and the Scandinavian languages are similar to a lesser degree. If you could tell me what, apart from the sound of the word, influenced you to think it is German, I might be able to assist better. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com It could easily be Yiddish, which borrows heavily from German. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 21:47:53 -0400 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: A wing and a prayer I think the examples of "pop goes the weasel" have somehow unearthed parts of old song lyrics that I didn't know I knew. During WWII (as several people have mentioned), there was a song called "Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer." I know the following words are not completely accurate, but the lyrics were something like this:: One of our planes is missing Four hours overdue One of our planes is missing With all its gallant crew. Then a voice came through the darkness, And this is what we heard: Coming in on a wing and a prayer, Coming in on a wing and a prayer, Though there's one motor gone, We can still carry on, Coming in on a wing and a prayer. There's something missing after line 4; maybe someone else can dredge it up. Virginia Clark University of Vermont ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Sep 1996 to 5 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 401 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. kimmelwick & Yiddish 2. Language in the Judicial Process 2.3 http://ljp.la.utk.edu 3. wing and a prayer (2) 4. "Ami" 5. American accent: nasal (4) 6. Word of the year...just ask Oprah and Hillary and Kerri Strug 7. barefoot and pregnant ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 23:21:11 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: kimmelwick & Yiddish Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 17:26:50 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: kimmelwick It could easily be Yiddish, which borrows heavily from German. It's my understanding that Yiddish (once Yiddischen Deutsch) can be considered a dialect of German. Most of the German-origin words are not borrowings, but inheritance from before the split with German. If "kimmelwick" is from Yiddish, then it's odd for it to show up in Northwestern New York State -- and not in the New York City area, which for about a century has had the highest concentration of native Yiddish speakers in New York State. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:22:56 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Language in the Judicial Process 2.3 http://ljp.la.utk.edu Language in the Judicial Process (LJP) 2.3 is now available at http://ljp.la.utk.edu . The new issue of the electronic journal of language and law contains our first book reviews, also new abstracts and important announcements. Contents: Book review: Making sense in law: Linguistic, psychological, and semiotic perspectives Book review: Language and Power in the U.S. Civil Trial Language Legislation and Linguistic Rights: An International Conference [Abstracts] [Editor's Note: There is an error in the Table of Contents at the moment; it lists "Abstracts of papers given at the IAFL conference in Australia. Click on that icon, though, for the LL&L abstracts.] Third conference of the International Association of Forensic Linguists at Duke University. [Announcement] LJP Technical Editor accepts full-time postion. Current citations in Language & the Law. Guide to the Archives Please keep me posted of new publications, upcoming meetings, etc. Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 03:19:44 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: wing and a prayer The song "Coming in on a Wing and a Prayer," came out in early 1942. I don't remember the movie, but it would have been a year or two later. The song supposedly told of an actual flight. It was what we'd call country/western today. The verses (which I can't remember but there were several) recounted the mission. The chorus goes Coming in on a wing and a prayer Coming in on a wing and a prayer Though there's one motor gone, we will still carry on Coming in on a wing and a prayer. The phrase had some currency, and maybe still does, but I haven't heard it for a long time. I always interpreted it to mean "have a very narrow escape." Here and there I have known people of little wit (but of great pretension to originality) who purposely invert set expressions. To something like "You must have come in on a wing and a prayer." They reply, "It was worse. A prayer and a wing." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 08:56:46 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: "Ami" On Thu, 5 Sep 1996, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: In message Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:08:54 -0400, Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM writes: BTW, where do you get "Ami" for "American"? That's a new one on me. & how do you pronounce it? I have been living in Germany. That's a colloquial term for Ami's in Germany. It's not derrogatory. It is considered by many to be derogatory. I second that -- at least it CAN be used in a derogatory manner. On a trip through Austria just days after the post-WWII occupation ended, I saw "Ami go home" painted on a wall. More indicatively, in a conversation at the German Information Center (where I worked), a co-worker complaining about jingoistic network coverage of the LA Olympics said sarcastically that if the Amis did it, it would be covered. Other colleagues hushed him in scandalized tones for using the word in my presence. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR Luanne Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:34:14 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: American accent: nasal Mike Picone comments: "Americans over there are often said to have a nasalized accent." I would comment that "nasal" is a pejorative term for "funny way of talking that sounds bad to me." Even worse is the "nasal drawl." I have been collecting odd citations of this by persons who I suspect couldn't tell a nasal from an anal, but who find that "nasal" gives them a seemingly scientific objective reason for objecting. One example is the novels of Arthur Hailey: there's a "nasal Texas drawl" in one of them, and a "nasal California drawl" in another. I guess the French think likewise. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:53:55 -0400 From: Donna Metcalf Ddonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Word of the year...just ask Oprah and Hillary and Kerri Strug My college age son says it's a Latin attempt to undermine our government because if any of these countries ever want to go to war they can just play the song and all the soldiers will stop whatever they're doing and dance. I say it's the word of the year: Macarena! Donna Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 14:23:22 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: American accent: nasal On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote: Mike Picone comments: "Americans over there are often said to have a nasalized accent." I would comment that "nasal" is a pejorative term for "funny way of talking that sounds bad to me." Even worse is the "nasal drawl." I have been collecting odd citations of this by persons who I suspect couldn't tell a nasal from an anal, but who find that "nasal" gives them a seemingly scientific objective reason for objecting. One example is the novels of Arthur Hailey: there's a "nasal Texas drawl" in one of them, and a "nasal California drawl" in another. I guess the French think likewise. - Allan Metcalf This may be true, but I think there's more to it than that. Twice I have had Europeans who did not speak English use nasalized vowels in sincere attempts to immitate my pronunciation of an English word. One occasion was in Holland, when I discovered that an American who had preceded me as a high school exchange student was not someone nicknamed "Bop," as I had thought, but was simply "Bob." "Oh, Bob!" I said in sudden comprehension. "Baaaab" (with nasalized, slightly fronted low central vowel), my interlocutor mimicked in an attempt to get it right. The other time I remember was in Vienna, where the closest my landlady could get to the pronunciation of my name was "Herr Mikgraa", with a low central, very strongly nasalized vowel. So it seems as if there's some quality in at least some American vowels that speakers of other languages (maybe even including British English) perceive as nasalization. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:35:01 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent: nasal So it seems as if there's some quality in at least some American vowels that speakers of other languages (maybe even including British English) perceive as nasalization. lack of roundness seems to be what is being perceived as nasalization. the examples that peter mcgraw brought up (bob and mcgraw) are both less (or un-)rounded in many/most american dialects. perhaps the perception as nasalization comes from there being more space for the sound to resonate in the vocal tract in both the low unrounded and nasal vowels (albeit rather different spaces). or, maybe when we unround our velums (vela?) drop a bit (but not as much as our imitators suggest). as long as i'm on the line here, let me give a cumulative thanks for everyone's help this week on my various questions. your stories and recollections all made it (pending editing) to the radio show, though it will be 1.5 weeks before i know how idiotic i sound (not because of your stories but just because i'm an inarticulate american). so, your influence is felt around the world. thank you thank you. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 16:05:31 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: American accent: nasal On Fri, 6 Sep 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: So it seems as if there's some quality in at least some American vowels that speakers of other languages (maybe even including British English) perceive as nasalization. lack of roundness seems to be what is being perceived as nasalization. the examples that peter mcgraw brought up (bob and mcgraw) are both less (or un-)rounded in many/most american dialects. perhaps the perception as nasalization comes from there being more space for the sound to resonate in the vocal tract in both the low unrounded and nasal vowels (albeit rather different spaces). or, maybe when we unround our velums (vela?) drop a bit (but not as much as our imitators suggest). Well, not quite. My vowel in "Bob" is no more unrounded, though it is more fronted, than the Dutch sound spelled "aa" (though the Dutch sound spelled "o" is short and rounded, so perhaps spelling played a role). But my vowel in "McGraw" is definitely rounded, and certainly more rounded than the sound my landlady produced, so it would rather seem as if rounding was what she was trying to approximate by nasalizing the vowel. To complicate matters further, Viennese German (especially blue collar Viennese) has a comparable vowel that is even lower, further back and more strongly rounded than mine in "McGraw". Peter as long as i'm on the line here, let me give a cumulative thanks for everyone's help this week on my various questions. your stories and recollections all made it (pending editing) to the radio show, though it will be 1.5 weeks before i know how idiotic i sound (not because of your stories but just because i'm an inarticulate american). so, your influence is felt around the world. thank you thank you. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:29:09 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: barefoot and pregnant Rick Blom said: Barefoot is a symbol of poverty, but it is only part of the message. ...It pops up wherever the "boys" get together and the talk turns to women, especially one who has acted in an uppity manner. It is almost always used as a form of braggadocio - "I keep my old lady barefoot and pregnant", or as a form of advice - "What you've got to do with that little gal is keep her barefoot and pregnant."[1] I suspect...that it originated in the South.[2] The whole of the message...is about control.[3] To keep a woman barefoot and pregnant means to keep her busy, to demand sexual compliance, and to deprive her of the resources needed to change the situation or to leave. Pregnant is happy and busy, barefoot is being unable to run away.[4] ...by urging the man to take total control of the relationship and to set the guidelines for behavior, it probably does, at least subconciously, legitimize more agressive attempts to impose one's will.[5] My concern is the casual way this sort of expression is accepted as just one of those good old boyisms that we seem to be so tolerant of as a society, as if because they were cute they were harmless.[6] ------------------- 1. These are direct quotes from my father and grandfather and their friends. The context was always, and usually blatantly, keeping women under control and "in their place." 2. My father's family came from the Pennsylvania hill country, somewhere in the Oil City area; they were of a lower socioeconomic class. 3. Exactly. In spades. 4. Those I heard use the phrase couldn't have cared less about any woman's happiness. Pregnant was also under control and unable to run away. It also served as a sign of ownership, a marking of territory. Conversations that included "barefoot and pregnant" also often included the expressions "knock her up" and "knock her upside the head," both used with gestures and tone of voice that gave them a violent connotation. 5. For these men, the "right" to keep "their" women under control through emotional, financial, and sexual means was openly coupled with the right to control them with physical dominance, threats, and violence. 6. Thank-you, Rick, for your concern. This phrase is not harmless. It is certainly not cute to any woman living with a man who practices it, and people who use it casually are perpetuating an attitude and behaviors that are dangerous and destructive to many women. Stepping down from the soapbox... [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Sep 1996 17:29:11 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: wing and a prayer Tom Beckner said; ...I always thought the "wing" was related to another expression, "to wing it," to act spontaneously or to function without some sense of formal knowledge or experience. The "prayer" was a bit more than hope, though; it meant a literal prayer to a power greater than oneself for protection or for success in the unknown venture or unchartered territory. ----------- This is how it was used in my corner of the Midwest (north- central Illinois, on the Mississippi), where the expression was "get by on a wing and a prayer." The sense was finding a "creative," unusual, or unexpected way to meet a need or solve a problem and trusting/asking Providence to give the solution greater efficacy than it might be expected to have. I hear the phrase much less here in Colorado, but when I do hear it, it has this same sense. (*Many* people have moved here from the Midwest, so the sense/meaning may have migrated with us.) =========== Jason Krantz said: ...WWII yielded aircraft that looked incapable of flight, [that] looked like they were supported on one side by a wing and on the other by the hopes and prayers of the crew. ----------- I had never heard this, but it fits perfectly the connotation of the phrase as I have heard it used. =========== [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Sep 1996 to 6 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 156 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Ami" 2. American accent (was: Kimmelweck) 3. American accent: nasal 4. NEH funding initiative: teach with tech 5. Address change 6. wing and a prayer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 01:43:26 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: "Ami" I'm not sure how long ago you were in Austria, but I know I was in grade school during the LA Olympics. My friends used this term freely in front of me. Not just the people with whom I shared a dorm, but friends that I've known for YEARS -- people that I would trust my life to. It was also used by/with "intimate" friends (sometimes during times of intimacy). The LA Olympics were a long time ago. They were before the wall fell ... and before that perspective fell. The world is at peace now. Don't try to turn it back to what it was. Jason Wilke ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 10:33:26 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: American accent (was: Kimmelweck) Growing up in Montreal as an Anglo, I notice that the Anglo-Quebec accent isn't. It's the closest I've heard to non-accented English from native English speakers. It's the kind of non-accented, perfect English I hear from people in the tourism industry in Holland or the Scandiavian countries, like they learned it from an instruction tape. In Montreal, though, I'll hear Anglos borrowing little bits of other peoples accents unconsciously(like my mother!), or at the other extreme, sounding stodgy and square("Uh, Hi, John-Gee. How's it going, eh?"). In my case, wherever I go, people think I'm from somewhere else. I have never been mistaken for a native of wherever I happen to be. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 12:09:17 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent: nasal i said: lack of roundness seems to be what is being perceived as nasalization. then peter mcg said: Well, not quite. My vowel in "Bob" is no more unrounded, though it is more fronted, than the Dutch sound spelled "aa" (though the Dutch sound spelled "o" is short and rounded, so perhaps spelling played a role). But my vowel in "McGraw" is definitely rounded, and certainly more rounded than the sound my landlady produced, so it would rather seem as if rounding was what she was trying to approximate by nasalizing the vowel. To complicate matters further, Viennese German (especially blue collar Viennese) has a comparable vowel that is even lower, further back and more strongly rounded than mine in "McGraw". well, what i was comparing is typical american accent to british accent. for me, the 'o' in _not_ or _bob_ is much less round than that of british english, and this is a function of it also being lower. the 'o' in british _not_ and _bob_ is closer to the sound i'd make in _mcgraw_. i was figuring that the europeans were seeing american characteristics as contrasting british characteristics, since british english is usually the standard taught in europe (and africa and parts of asia). when the movie _la femme nikita_ came out, my friends and i thought the french pronunciation of "bob" was one of the most amusing things there was. (you must understand, we were living in a central illinois college town during summer break. we did anything to entertain ourselves.) so, anyone with a name remotely like "robert" became "bub" (with the shortest possible vowel)--i guess it would be something like [boeb]--where the o and e are one graph. this is vastly different than how someone else was describing the dutch pronunciation of the name. the languages of europe, of course, each have their own vowels, but all the people seem to perceive americans in the same way ("nasal")--so i guess that's why i'm assuming they're comparing us with a british standard rather than with their own pronunciations. lynne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 17:34:48 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: NEH funding initiative: teach with tech The U.S. National Endowment for the Humanities has just announced a new initiative: "NEH's Division of Research and Education Programs announces a special, three-year opportunity for support of Teaching with Technology projects designed to strengthen education in the humanities in both schools and colleges by developing and using today's rapidly evolving information technologies: including digital audio, video and imaging, hypertext and hypermedia, video- conferencing, speech processing, the Internet, and World Wide Web sites. . . ." For the full announcement, or to request guidelines and application forms by surface mail: Division of Research and Education, Room 302 National Endowment for the Humanities 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, DC 20506 (202) 606-8380; education[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:04:25 -0400 From: Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Address change change address old one: tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usa.pipeline.com new one: tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com I am not sure how to go about changing the address so hopefully someone will help me Thanks Johnnie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Sep 1996 22:35:24 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: wing and a prayer I think your assessment of the origin of "on a wing and a prayer" is accurate, but I doubt that it originated before WWII. In WWII, it was not unusual for a plane, especially a bomber, to return to its airfield with much of one wing blown off. Photos of planes in this state are truly amazing. Flak, which consisted mostly of anti-aircraft shells, was often the cause of this. The shells had proximity fuses and if one exploded very near a plane, it could easily take off big chunks of a wing. WWI is an unlikely source; anti-aircraft barrages consisted mostly of small arms fire and while bullets can put a lot of holes in an aircraft, it is unlikely that they would take off a wing. Barnstorming seems even less likely a source, since any more-than-minor accident was usually fatal. WWII yielded aircraft that looked incapable of flight, so when these things came in, it looked like they were supported on one side by a wing and on the other by the hopes and prayers of the crew. I still think it's possible for the expression to have originated in earlier days -- and that its use as we know it and relate to it derives from WW2 images. If the motor went out on an old single-wing aircraft, it could glide down to a field, road, or airport. On early planes the wing was attached to the body, whereas later aircraft have right and left wings. Biplanes had two wings (planes) attached to the body of the craft, one above and one below. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Sep 1996 to 7 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American accent: nasal (6) 2. Amerikan accent 3. ATLAS OF ENGLISH DIALECTS 4. GIFT SHOP: An American invention 5. Gum-chewing (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:01:36 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: American accent: nasal I think there's a difference in the use of voiced consonants and aspiration, as well. It took me forever, for example, to learn to propoerly speak the soft t at the end of most Russian verb infinitives. It just doesn't exist in English. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 01:13:55 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Amerikan accent Growing up in Montreal as an Anglo, I notice that the Anglo-Quebec accent isn't. It's the closest I've heard to non-accented English from native English speakers. It's the kind of non-accented, perfect English I hear from people in the tourism industry in Holland or the Scandiavian countries, like they learned it from an instruction tape. In Montreal, though, I'll hear Anglos borrowing little bits of other peoples accents unconsciously(like my mother!), or at the other extreme, sounding stodgy and square("Uh, Hi, John-Gee. How's it going, eh?"). In my case, wherever I go, people think I'm from somewhere else. I have never been mistaken for a native of wherever I happen to be. I've made several Canadian friends over the past year, most of whom were from Ontario. Among Canadians that DO have an accent, I've almost learned to determine what province they're from, but there do seem to be a few with muted or flat accents. What would cause that? Most Canadians sound just like Americans except for certain words, like "out". The ones with flat accents are the exception, not the rule... Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 03:43:41 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ATLAS OF ENGLISH DIALECTS This is from the London Times, 6 Aug. 1996, pg. 6, cols. 7-8. The book should be out now--anyone have it? Nowt so queer as the words some folk use by Joe Joseph It's not because Cornishmen are inscrutable that they look at you in that way. It's just that they can't understand half of what you're saying. That is the message of a new ATLAS OF ENGLISH DIALECTS which finds that regional speech patterns have survived relatively unscathed. The book confounds linguists who predicted that dialects would die as BBC newsreaders offered benchmarks for pukkah pronunciation, as television drama brought every local accent into our sitting rooms (CORONATION STREET, SPENDER, CROSSROADS), and as greater mobility made regional tongues obsolete. Words retain a geographical reach beyond which they lose their punch. It's not what you know or who you know that defines you, but what you say and how you say it. Henry Higgins could still place you within yards of your birthplace. Today may be Tuesday to you, but it's Tyoozday in Cornwall, Toozday in Devon and East Anglia, and Choozday in much of Merseyside. And if you don't agree then you're just being silly, daft, addle-headed, cakey, soft, barmy or gormless. Unless you're from the Middlesbrough area, in which case you're plainly a little fond. "Every time someone says that dialect has all gone, this is countered by new evidence that it persists," says John Widdowson, co-author of the atlas and Professor at Sheffield University's Centre for English Cultural Tradition. Whether you throw a ball, or fling, chuck, heave, hain, pelt, cob, clod, hoy or yack it says more about you than cash ever can. Londoners have workmates. Tynesiders have marrers; many people in Yorkshire spend their day with a pal, and in Somerset with a butty, but the Home Counties prefer mates. When they get home they might lay the table for tea down south, but more likely set it further north, except for a few people in the northeast who still like to fettle the tea, which is maybe what makes them seem quite so fond. Grammatically, there are just we two, but most of England prefers us two, with pockets holding out for the two on us, the two of us, and thee and me. Why? Because that's the way we are, we am, we be, us be, we bin, or we am. Got that? We can change our accents, but regional vocabulary is the slipping petticoat that betrays us. Margaret Thatcher may speak Mayfair English now, but when she called the Labour Party "frit" she was letting the world know not only that the Opposition was frightened but that her tongue was tutored in Grantham. The atlas, published later this month by Oxford University Press, is the fruit of nearly 50 years of research. The Survey of English Dialects began in 1948. Professor Widdowson and Dr. Clive Upton, his co-author and colleague at Sheffield, attribute the rich variety of dialects largely "to the simple fact that English has been spoken in the country for upwards of 1,500 years. Even in North America, where English has been in use for some 400 years, there has been insufficient time for fragmentation of the language to occur." Women's names, for example, or words describing women, have often been applied to cats, especially she-cats. "Tib," common in north Yorkshire, was frequently used in the 16th and 17th centuries to describe any working-class woman, from sweethearts to prostitutes. "Betty," for "female cat" lingers in East Anglia. So if some stranger tells you that the ewe cat he bought off a didikoy last week is thirl and a gooseogb just won't satisfy her, don't be frit. He's only saying that the female cat that a gypsy sold him is so hungry that it'll take more than a gooseberry to fill her up. The stranger's not cakey. Just Cornish. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 06:42:24 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: GIFT SHOP: An American invention While overseas, I couldn't help noticing "gift shops." The Dictionary of Americanisms and the OED both list this as an Americanism dating from 1918. I solved the "gift shop"--that's gotta be worth a FREE GIFT somewhere, right? Ah, c'mon!! This item comes from the Washington Post, 17 December 1905, part 4, pg. 8, col. 5: NEW FIELD FOR ART STUDENTS The "Gift Shop" Originated by a Washington Girl in Kansas City. The "gift shop" is a new idea. It was originated by a Washington girl, Miss Olive R. Chapin, a former student of the Corcoran Art School, and the success with which it has met has been unprecedented. All sorts and kinds of gifts, birthday gifts, Christmas gifts, Easter gifts and wedding gifts, are planned out, drawn, or painted, embroidered and fashioned in new and quaint designs. Quite beside the work to order, Miss Chapin has gathered together many unique and exclusively wrought things done by the Russian peasants in this country, the Swedes, the Germans, the French, and the Japanese, until the gift shop has assumed a very Rialto flavor, and besides being a charming place to visit it is unique and most instructive. Unfortunately it is not in Washington but out in Kansas City, one room, dull green and old ivory, the shelves and cabinets ranged about laden with the gift shop wares. The first object that greets one on entering is an immense water color panel of hollyhocks painted out of an old fashioned garden, rich red blossoms in which is the living glint of sunshine. Just beneath it are many other water color paintings, smaller in size but delightful in color and spirit, and odd little fire etchings all done by the artist herself. Then there are candlesticks of bronze and hammered brass, copper bowls, lacquered spoons and trays, and antique silver clasps, the work of the Russian peasants. There are Dutch pitchers and steins, Japanese plaques and dishes; Austrian vases of iridescent iris [?] coloring, odd new fangled bits from Paris, a marvelous flower fan that when closed becomes a shower bouquet. Scattered with the larger things are countless little sample dinner cards, score cards, rute [?] cards for bridge, favors, doilies, illuminated texts, chrysanthemum fans, girl faces in great violet hats, tiny little Kate Greenaway figures in violets--in short, everything gracious and flower like. Just such a "shop" as this has never existed before and it opens up a new and profitable industry for the clever and original art student quite aside from the charm of the work. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 09:27:12 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent: nasal I think there's a difference in the use of voiced consonants and aspiration, as well. It took me forever, for example, to learn to propoerly speak the soft t at the end of most Russian verb infinitives. It just doesn't exist in English. well, we have a tendency to glottalise our 't's at the ends of words, so "not" comes out [na?], a fact that amazes and confuses south africans. lynne ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 10:09:07 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: American accent: nasal I just talked to my father this morning. He has a visitor from Germany staying with him. According to my dad's German guest, he was taught how to speak English over a period of 4 years. His instructor told him that in order to learn English he should keep in mind that Americans have a "chewing gum" way of speaking. I had never heard that one before and have no idea of what it means. I wonder if nasal is better than chewing gum. *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:48:59 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: American accent: nasal I think there's a difference in the use of voiced consonants and aspiration, as well. It took me forever, for example, to learn to propoerly speak the soft t at the end of most Russian verb infinitives. It just doesn't exist in English. well, we have a tendency to glottalise our 't's at the ends of words, so "not" comes out [na?], a fact that amazes and confuses south africans. It's not just final consonants. I had a Russian professor once (a Russian) who said that Americans were very difficult to understand because of the way many sounds are dropped or just fall. For example, instead of saying 20 is twenty, we say it's "twunne". The t loses all cohesiveness and becomes unintelligible. Both vowels drop to a form requiring less articulation... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 11:58:14 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: American accent: nasal him that in order to learn English he should keep in mind that Americans have a "chewing gum" way of speaking. I had never heard that one before and have no idea of what it means. I wonder if nasal is better than I understand perfectly what he means. I'm not sure I can explain it to you well -- it's one of those things that just has to click -- but I think you just answered my question. Ever hear the nasalised dialect of a valley girl? All Amis do that to some extent. It's what made me stand out among my friends back home. That can, to some extent, be associated with the effect of chewing gum -- and also with the type of person that stereotypically chews gum. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:10:56 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: American accent: nasal well, we have a tendency to glottalise our 't's at the ends of words, so "not" comes out [na?], a fact that amazes and confuses south africans. It's not just final consonants. I had a Russian professor once (a Russian) who said that Americans were very difficult to understand because of the way many sounds are dropped or just fall. For example, instead of saying 20 is twenty, we say it's "twunne". The t loses all cohesiveness and becomes unintelligible. Both vowels drop to a form requiring less articulation... well, i was just responding to the example you've given, but [t] acts funny in many contexts in american english. as you note, it gets assimilated to [n] in some contexts, dropped altogether in others (e.g., _next_ -- nex in some dialects and registers), gets flapped in words like _butter_ and _water_, and replaced with a glottal stop in mitten and britain (for many people). i'll bet anything (well, anything cheap) that similar things happen in russian--sounds dropping out or changing in fast or casual speech. (think of french, e.g., where _je te_ becomes "sht".) what differs from language to language and dialect to dialect is what can drop from where, and so when moving into a language/dialect you're less familiar with, you're unable to predict where things will drop and therefore less able to recognize words when casually said by a native speaker. again, i think a lot of the continental stereotypes of american speech come from contrast with british speech, but it's not the case that the americans are dropping sounds all over the place while the british aren't--they just drop different sounds (e.g., [r] and lots of vowels as in diction'ry). perhaps someone out there could recommend a book that summarizes the key idiosyncrasies of american pronunciation? lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:17:11 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Gum-chewing Now I am fascinated: On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Jason Wilke wrote: snip girl? All Amis do that to some extent. It's what made me stand out among my friends back home. That can, to some extent, be associated with the effect of chewing gum -- and also with the type of person that stereotypically chews gum. Most of the people I know who chew gum do so immediately after a meal at which lots of garlic was served. WHO "stereotypically chews gum" these days? Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 15:38:43 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: Gum-chewing On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: Now I am fascinated: girl? All Amis do that to some extent. It's what made me stand out among my friends back home. That can, to some extent, be associated with the effect of chewing gum -- and also with the type of person that stereotypically chews gum. Most of the people I know who chew gum do so immediately after a meal at which lots of garlic was served. WHO "stereotypically chews gum" these days? I suppose that changes according to the times, actually. My grandmother chews gum, and I used to on rare occasion. A lot of people chew to prevent smoking, too. I was not trying to slight regular gum chewers (my, isn't this the truly PC list?). Nowadays, gum may be linked to garlic eaters and ex-smokers, but the stereotype that I was referring to was the waitress in the diner at the counter or the school kids that hang out behind the gym. Valley girls are known for chewing gum (hence my previous reference) as well as baseball players (although they also chew other nasty sh-- that I wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole). Generally, these "gum-chewers" are only slightly educated, somewhat ambitious, and fit into the image of "classic" America. These "classic" images are a large part of the perception of Americans around the world. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Sep 1996 to 8 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 318 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST!" 2. "Ami" (3) 3. American accent: nasal 4. washington post readers 5. "Ami" -Reply 6. barefoot and pregnant -Reply 7. English as official language 8. new verb? (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 01:35:18 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "WOMEN AND CHILDREN FIRST!" Who can forget when the Titanic went down? Gosh, I remember it like it was last week! And that phrase, that AWFUL phrase--"Women and children first!" Thank you! Neil Simon played it perfectly in his musical LITTLE ME: "Women and children first!" (_grabbing a person's dress and wig_) "Captain! Have you no shame!" Actually, the phrase did NOT originate with the Titanic, nor its film A NIGHT TO REMEMBER. It was used (first?) in Prudential Insurance ads--before the Rock. This is from Leslie's Weekly, 16 July 1896, pg. 46. A captain is giving instructions: "Women and Children First!" When a Ship is wrecked at sea, women and children have the first care. It should be the same on shore--in life--always protect the family against want with reliable Life Insurance...The Prudential insures the whole family. Children, Women and Men from ages 1 to 70. You also hear this phrase at the breakfast table, everywhere! I want to marry a feminist! We'll go on a honeymoon cruise.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:06:52 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: "Ami" I find it somewhat odd that Jason Wilke keeps trying to convince us that a term (in this case German 'Ami' for 'American') lacks any negative connotations by emphasizing the degree of trust, closeness, and friendship that exists between him and those who use this term on him. For me, that is a pretty good sign that it probably does have negative connotations. Only my best freinds (in fact, usually only other Hungarians) ever call me a Hunkey. This is surely a commonplace in slurs of all sorts. Dennis Preston I'm not sure how long ago you were in Austria, but I know I was in grade school during the LA Olympics. My friends used this term freely in front of me. Not just the people with whom I shared a dorm, but friends that I've known for YEARS -- people that I would trust my life to. It was also used by/with "intimate" friends (sometimes during times of intimacy). The LA Olympics were a long time ago. They were before the wall fell ... and before that perspective fell. The world is at peace now. Don't try to turn it back to what it was. Jason Wilke Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:22:20 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: American accent: nasal I'm not sure why Americans are taking it on the chin here. In Poland, English (not just American English) is the language which is spoken with a mouth full of hot noodles, they say. Not far from chweing gum , I think. Valley girl, by the way (as opposed to adolescent Eastern female) is often caricatured by denasalized (not nasalized) phrases, but, as Bill Labov pointed out some time ago, folk usage applies the term 'nasal' to both execessively nasalized and denasalized speech, at least in American English. Dennis him that in order to learn English he should keep in mind that Americans have a "chewing gum" way of speaking. I had never heard that one before and have no idea of what it means. I wonder if nasal is better than I understand perfectly what he means. I'm not sure I can explain it to you well -- it's one of those things that just has to click -- but I think you just answered my question. Ever hear the nasalised dialect of a valley girl? All Amis do that to some extent. It's what made me stand out among my friends back home. That can, to some extent, be associated with the effect of chewing gum -- and also with the type of person that stereotypically chews gum. Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n-jcenter.com Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 09:19:13 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: washington post readers Any ADS-ers in the DC area or others who have a copy of Sunday's Washington Post: They printed an article of mine in the Outlook section on the official language issue. If you could fax or mail me a copy, I'd greatly appreciate it. (I understand it was rewritten "to make it lighter" whatever that means, and am curious to see the final result.) Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:23:22 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: "Ami" -Reply Chill out! No one here is trying to change the world. People are reporting their observations. This is DATA, the basis of descriptive (not prescriptive) linguistics. You report non-pejorative use. Someone else reports pejorative use. Neither of you is lying, and both of you are probably reporting accurately. The data show VARIATION. No problem. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM 0907.0043 I'm not sure how long ago you were in Austria, but I know I was in grade school during the LA Olympics. [...] The LA Olympics were a long time ago. They were before the wall fell ... and before that perspective fell. The world is at peace now. Don't try to turn it back to what it was. Jason Wilke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 10:27:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: barefoot and pregnant -Reply Thank you for putting this on the list! Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU 0906.1829 [...] 6. Thank-you, Rick, for your concern. This phrase is not harmless. It is certainly not cute to any woman living with a man who practices it, and people who use it casually are perpetuating an attitude and behaviors that are dangerous and destructive to many women. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 12:28:05 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: English as official language I had meant to report earlier having met our current member of the HR on the campaign trail and asked him about this issue. He told me that nothing had been done about it, and that it was dead for this session. I laid some of Dennis Baron's information on him anyway, but whether sweet reason penetrates the brain if the rutting politician, I do not know. E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 22:19:03 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: new verb? Heard on a local piedmont, North Carolina, TV station, concerning the feelings of an 81-year-old man about the fact that Hurricane Fran had blown the steeple off a Wilmington, NC, baptist church: "He had seen all of his children baptized in that church, and his wife was funeralized there as well." Is this a new usage? Do you suppose he and the now-deceased wife were nuptialized in that church, too? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:24:35 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: new verb? I hadn't heard "funeralized" before, but I suppose that, once his wife was eulogized, then.... beth ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:50:37 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: "Ami" Only my best freinds (in fact, usually only other Hungarians) ever call me a Hunkey. I don't think many of us in the ADS ever thought of Dennis Preston as "hunky" before, but then I learn something new every day. I do agree with what he is saying here though about slurs being used among friends. In Japan, the term "gaijin" (which technically is just a word for "foreigner") is held by many gaijin and many Japanese as well to be derogatory. Although I refer to myself as a gaijin sometimes, I am particularly fond of being referred to in this way by strangers. Some of my close Japanese friends may refer to me in this way, but then that is the point here. I remember an incident when I first came to Japan and was running around with a mixed crew of Japanese and Americans. At a noisy party one night, one of the Americans yelled out "Jap" at one of the Japanese guests. The room got really quiet for a second, until that person shot back with "gaijin". After this, there was a feeling that now all of us in the group had crossed a line; we could insult each other (and get away with it) as only friends could. It doesn't surprise me that Jason Wilke doesn't find derogatory a term which others do, or that he doesn't mind referring to himself in this way. After all, I have heard African-Americans referring to themselves (in jest, as a defense mechanism, etc.) as "nigger". And it was "queers" and "dykes" (not heterosexuals) who formed groups like Queer Nation and Dykes on Bikes. Does that mean that it's okay for everyone else to use these insulting and just down-right mean words? Of course not. It seems to me that if SOME people find a term that's used to describe them derogatory, then that's good enough reason to consider them to be so. Danny Long, full-time gaijin Dennis R. Preston wrote: I find it somewhat odd that Jason Wilke keeps trying to convince us that a term (in this case German 'Ami' for 'American') lacks any negative connotations by emphasizing the degree of trust, closeness, and friendship that exists between him and those who use this term on him. For me, that is a pretty good sign that it probably does have negative connotations. Only my best freinds (in fact, usually only other Hungarians) ever call me a Hunkey. This is surely a commonplace in slurs of all sorts. Dennis Preston ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:20:59 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: "Ami" Although we're off on a tangent, our Americajin/gaijin friend seems to have made a point close to the target. I am also queer, and have no probelms with that word. I think the PC movement is way outta hand. I also think different levels of slurs and the way they're used make a greater difference than the slurs themselves. Tone, as well as degree are important factours. You can call me a queer Ami if you want, but calling me a f---in' blanco faggot is, as they say "fightin' words". Jason Wilke --------------------------------------- Only my best freinds (in fact, usually only other Hungarians) ever call me a Hunkey. is the point here. I remember an incident when I first came to Japan and was running around with a mixed crew of Japanese and Americans. At a noisy party one night, one of the Americans yelled out "Jap" at one of the Japanese guests. The room got really quiet for a second, until tha person shot back with "gaijin". After this, there was a feeling that now all of us in the group had crossed a line; we could insult each other (and get away with it) as only friends could. It doesn't surprise me that Jason Wilke doesn't find derogatory a term which others do, or that he doesn't mind referring to himself in this way. After all, I have heard African-Americans referring to themselves (in jest, as a defense mechanism, etc.) as "nigger". And it was "queers" and "dykes" (not heterosexuals) who formed groups like Queer Nation and Dykes on Bikes. Does that mean that it's okay for everyone else to use these insulting and just down-right mean words? Of course not. It seems to me that if SOME people find a term that's used to describe them derogatory, then that's good enough reason to consider them to be so. Danny Long, full-time gaijin I find it somewhat odd that Jason Wilke keeps trying to convince us that a term (in this case German 'Ami' for 'American') lacks any negative connotations by emphasizing the degree of trust, closeness, and friendship that exists between him and those who use this term on him. For me, that is a pretty good sign that it probably does have negative connotations. Only my best freinds (in fact, usually only other Hungarians) ever call mea Hunkey. Dennis Preston ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Sep 1996 to 9 Sep 1996 ********************************************** There are 31 messages totalling 757 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Ami"and Cafe Los Negroes 2. HOBO: another antedate (2) 3. Feist and Cur - Additional info required (2) 4. new verb? (2) 5. funeralized 6. more on funeralize 7. barefoot and pregnant (2) 8. "my bad" (5) 9. new word? mix (2) 10. Feist and Cur - Additional info required -Reply 11. Mixes? My bad... 12. RE new word? mix (4) 13. No subject given (2) 14. RE Re: "my bad" 15. RE new word? mix -Reply 16. Questions from inside: Southern accents 17. oh those ignorant southerners . . . 18. thanks re funeralize ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:05:17 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: "Ami"and Cafe Los Negroes I think this discussion was already on its way to the "beating a dead horse" stage when I came in, so I'll be brief. I just had to tell y'all (in the midst of this discussion about terms for social groups, their acceptability, etc.) that I have just found an internet site for "New York's black and latino underground on-line" called "Cafe Los Negroes". One thing that caught my attention was that Yahoo wrote "This site has been optimized for cyber-negroidal viewers". The page "NEGROFILE" has an essay entitled, "Diary Of A Cybernegro". They also include an icon called "Afrolinks". The address is http://www.losnegroes.com/index.html. All this has made me want to reread John Baugh's "The Politicization of Changing Terms of Self-Reference among American Slave Descendents". Danny Long, (who thought ami only meant "friend") ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 01:57:16 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: HOBO: another antedate I might as well get this stuff out somehow. You never know when Hurricane Fran's going to come and completely destroy your life's work. "Hobo" was extremely popular around the turn of the century, much as "homeless" is now. The dictionaries have 1889, from American English. This is from the New Orleans Picayune, 19 August 1848, pg. 2, col. 4: SPECIAL CORRESPONDENCE OF THE PICAYUNE [By J.E.D.-ed.] NEW YORK, August 1, 1848. Well, here I am once more in Gotham, after three years' absence--three years which have passed as agreeably as time usually passes with people in this digging world. During that period I have floated about and circulated round to some considerable extent. A two years' residence in the goodly Crescent City has made something of a Southerner of me--intercourse with the New Orleans Creoles has prejudiced me a little, and a years' bronzing and "ho-boying" about among the mountains of that charming country called Mexico, has given me a slight dash of the Spanish. And yet I come back again and find a whole host of old familiar faces, with whom time has dealt most leniently..... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 15:24:51 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: HOBO: another antedate Since this is "another antedate", I may have missed some discussion of this earlier. (I was off ADS-L most of the summer). Does anyone know any etymological tales about "hobo". In looking at Japanese loanwords in English, I have run across people who claimed that "hobo" came from the Japanese word "ho:ro:" (those are long o's) which means things like "vagrancy" etc. Regrettably I don't even remember where I read this now; it sounded so silly at the time that I didn't make a note of it. (True this Japanese "r" gets heard at "l" and "r" and even "d" in English, but I don't know of anycases where it's turned into a "b". . .) Danny Long Barry A. Popik wrote: "Hobo" was extremely popular around the turn of the century, much as "homeless" is now. The dictionaries have 1889, from American English. This is from the New Orleans Picayune, 19 August 1848, pg. 2, col. 4: ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:15:28 -0400 From: dennisr dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MGL.CA Subject: Re: Feist and Cur - Additional info required I am the list owner of the Earthdog-Squirrel Dog E-mail Discuusion Group. Our homepage is at http://www.zmall.com/pet_talk/dog-faqs/activities/edsdhp.html We believe that we must preserve terrier and dachshund instincts by breeding, registering and promoting certain canine performance sports such as "going to ground" and Squirrel Dog Testing. I stress that in the American Kennel Club and the American Working Terrier Association "Earthdog" tests, that the rats are pets in cages and the dogs cannot touch the rats. In the National Kennel Club "Squirrel Dog Tests", the dogs are marked as to finding squirrels in a tree that can be verified by a judge only. There is no marks for shooting the squirrel. The objective of the tests is to measure canine instincts and certificates are awarded that is registered in Kennel Club Registeries for future generations. We want to collect all info pertaining to our canine breeds. The term "feist" and "cur" often are referred to as a dog of uncertain bloodlines. However certain feist and cur dog varities have been preserved in Appalachia and Southern Ontario Canada that are bred for purpose since the 1700's and have been registered since 1980. Wiilliam Faulkner (a feist man himself) in "Go Down Moses" (1942) Random Books, later published as "The Bear", uses the term. Goethe (he hated dogs) in "Faust" refers to the word. The "American Dialect Dictionary" gives several spellings for Feist (feest, fyste, fice, feist, fist) and several definitions. In Appalachian literature, Horace Kephardt's "Our Southern Highlanders", 1913 uses the term. If anyone is interested in further info one such article for reference is Davis, Donald. Feist or fiction? : The squirrel dog of the southern mountains. p. 193-201. Source: Journal of Popular Culture. v26 n3. Winter 1992. p. 193-201. Article Length: Long (31+ col inches). Article Type: Feature. Includes references. Summary: The connection between Feist dogs in the Southern US and social and cultural developments in this same area is explored. The dogs held a variety of roles, from hunters to sources of pride for their owners. Any other references to feist or cur would be appreciated. Dennis Reay dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mgl.ca ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 05:19:40 -0400 From: dennisr dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MGL.CA Subject: Re: Feist and Cur - Additional info required I apologize for all the grammar errors. Evidently I didn't peruse the posting before sending. Dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:05:18 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: new verb? Heard on a local piedmont, North Carolina, TV station, concerning the feelings of an 81-year-old man about the fact that Hurricane Fran had blown the steeple off a Wilmington, NC, baptist church: "He had seen all of his children baptized in that church, and his wife was funeralized there as well." Is this a new usage? Do you suppose he and the now-deceased wife were nuptialized in that church, too? well, my dad and brother are funeral directors, and i've never heard this (or at least not steadily enough to make an impression). my favorite funerary word is "predecease". people don't decease, but they do predecease. weird. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:10:45 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: funeralized A quick check shows that citations for _funeralized_ have been turning up sporadically here since 1968. Every one of these treats the term as a new word and sets it in quotes. Apparently no one here has seen or has been sent in a citation from the original source. E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:13:34 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: more on funeralize Now that I have had a chance to poke around a little more I find that this new word has been entered in our unabridged dictionaries since 1909. It is in The Dictionary of Americanisms and in DARE. The earliest notice appears to be from Bartlett's 2d (I think) edition in 1859. The oldest citation in our files is from Dialect Notes in 1896 (DARE has it too). E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:19:04 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: new verb? DARE has "funeralize" from 1859. It's labelled Sth, S Midl. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:18:51 -0400 From: Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLAZIE.COM Subject: Re: barefoot and pregnant Rick Blom said: ."I suspect...that it originated in the South.[2] Pregnant is happy and busy, barefoot is being unable to run away.[4] Kat Rosae ressponded to these points: 2. My father's family came from the Pennsylvania hill country, somewhere in the Oil City area; they were of a lower socioeconomic class. 4. Those I heard use the phrase couldn't have cared less about any woman's happiness. Pregnant was also under control and unable to run away. It also served as a sign of ownership, a marking of territory. Conversations that included "barefoot and pregnant" also often included the expressions "knock her up" and "knock her upside the head," both used with gestures and tone of voice that Saying I thought it originated in the South was too generic. I had in mind, but did not say, that I thought it was southern Appalachain in origin. It certainly is associated with lower socioeconomic classes. I assumed it migrated into the Upper Midwest and Northeast during the movements associated with World War 11, which brought a lot of "Southern" culture north. These opinions are based on a superficial knowledge and open to correction. I was far too glib in saying that "preganant is happy". It was an unfortunate shorthand for a far more complicated social reality, and I used it, in part, because I am a little uncertain of my footing here. I have heard the expression used by men who thought that women who were pregnant were less likely to challenge, demand, or leave. For those men, submission, tolerance, or acceptance is equivalent to happiness. Their assumptions are based on reality: a woman who is pregnant or who has small childrem has fewer options and is therefore constrained to accept things which she might resist in other circumstances. Shorthand can be quicksand, and I stepped right in it this time. Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blazie.com Bel Air, Maryland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:26:16 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: "my bad" I have been in Georgia for a year now and have heard "my bad" used for about that same period of time. I am from Texas and lived there most of my life, however, I lived in Michigan and Ohio for 5 years. I had never encountered this usage before then. I have usually heard it used in sports, but I have also heard it used outside of that context. For example, one might hit into a double play or make an error for which the appropriate response by that person is "My bad." Hence, it seems to refer to an error or mistake one makes that may or may not cause a problem for others involved. Has anyone else encountered this usage? *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:54:56 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: new word? mix I just submitted a new word to John Algeo and realized I ought to have posted it here first. My teenagers are always trading mixes with each other. I had never heard this before this year. It's a cassette audio tape on which you tape a collection of your favorite songs from other albums. A Beatles Mix would have your own favorite Beatles songs on it. Anybody else heard this? and when and where? Dale Coye Princeton, NJ. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:16:17 -0800 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" Three or four years ago students in my intro classes reported using "my bad" in contexts like those you describe. I've now started using the expression myself, which means the usage is now obsolete among trendy California teenagers. Mary Bucholtz Department of Linguistics University of California, Berkeley bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:20:56 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: new word? mix dale said: I just submitted a new word to John Algeo and realized I ought to have posted it here first. My teenagers are always trading mixes with each other. I had never heard this before this year. It's a cassette audio tape on which you tape a collection of your favorite songs from other albums. A Beatles Mix would have your own favorite Beatles songs on it. Anybody else heard this? and when and where? the word isn't very new--there have been dance mix albums for a number of years. what seems to be new is that people are calling their homemade tapes mixes as well as the commmercially available mixes (usually on cd). it probably started with the dance scene, since people typically don't want to buy whole albums of dance bands (of such genres as techno, house, trance, etc., but perhaps this goes as far back as disco--i dunno), but instead just want the songs they know from the clubs. so, there are commercially available albums of current hits (the modern version of the k-tel record) called mixes, with names that frequently use the word "mix"--like "it's in the mix" or "all mixed up" or "dance mix 96". i see these more in south africa (where they make up at least 60% of the top 10) than in the states, because the rave culture is more widespread here. i believe the situation is similar in europe--with dance mixes comprising a great proportion of pop record sales. the european-made ones tend to use the word "mix" more, though. american-made ones like mtv's "party to go" series don't seem to use the word "mix" as much. but, i wouldn't be surprised to learn that this all started with rap music, where a mix is less a collection of songs than a conglomeration of songs--mixing of samples. but this all gets back to the DJ culture and playing songs over a constant beat (or matching beats among songs in order to make them flow into each other). thus, both in rap culture and in rave culture you have people called "mixmasters". pretending to be hip, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:05:17 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Feist and Cur - Additional info required -Reply From dennisr dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MGL.CA 0910.0415 [...] The term "feist" and "cur" often are referred to as a dog of uncertain bloodlines. However certain feist and cur dog varities have been preserved in Appalachia and Southern Ontario Canada that are bred for purpose since the 1700's and have been registered since 1980. [...] Goethe (he hated dogs) in "Faust" refers to the word. Considering that Goethe wrote in German, what's that got to do with it? My (admittedly not exhaustive) G-E dictionary lists "feist" only as an adjective meaning 'fat' or 'obese'. If Goethe did indeed use "Feist" as a word for a kind of dog, it may have etymological relevance. If the word occurs in an English translation, then of course it bears not on Goethe's usage but the translator's. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 10:30:41 -0500 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU Subject: Mixes? My bad... M. Lynne Murphy spake thusly: dale said: My teenagers are always trading mixes with each other. the word isn't very new--there have been dance mix albums for a number of years. what seems to be new is that people are calling their homemade tapes mixes as well as the commmercially available mixes This isn't very new, either -- or at least, not in my crowd. We've been trading "mixes" with each other for at least 6 or 7 years. And I've heard "my bad" for at least 10 years, though only recently have I heard the phrase uttered by many people overlapping race and socio-economic backgrounds. JFTR. Kathleen M. O'Neill Supervisor, UIC Language Laboratory kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 09:11:03 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" Funny you lived in Ohio and never heard it. That's the only place I ever DID hear it, and your note took me back. My son and his middle-school-age friends used it in the meaning you mention below (something like "Oops, I screwed up, sorry, my fault!"). This was in the late '70s-early '80s in Yellow Springs, Ohio, a harmoniously integrated community where the black kids usually set the trends. I had it pegged as originating among the black kids and being picked up by the white kids, though I don't know where I got this impression. I never heard it used by anyone of college age or older. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Sonja Lanehart wrote: I have been in Georgia for a year now and have heard "my bad" used for about that same period of time. I am from Texas and lived there most of my life, however, I lived in Michigan and Ohio for 5 years. I had never encountered this usage before then. I have usually heard it used in sports, but I have also heard it used outside of that context. For example, one might hit into a double play or make an error for which the appropriate response by that person is "My bad." Hence, it seems to refer to an error or mistake one makes that may or may not cause a problem for others involved. Has anyone else encountered this usage? *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:13:01 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE new word? mix Mix tapes, mixed tapes: I think what is happening here (if you'll pardon my amateur attempt) is that mix = mixed. The "x" and the "ed" have collided and the "x" has become the dominant sound. On the streets of New York club DJs sell mix tapes of dance, techno, pop, salsa, etc. A good mix matches beats per minute (sometimes slowing it down or speeding it up in a way that the sounds artful) and segues flawlessly from song to song. Often a jock will make use of a repeating sample in such a way that the sample is heard on the tape long before the song it comes from actually begins in order to provide continuity. Songs may not be played through, or may be repeated, or may be totally sampled and then applied to a new beat track. The end result is one long song: no breaks, all music. As you might know, there's a whole cult in it. You find a DJ whose sound you like, and you buy his tapes, go to the clubs he spins at and recommend him to your friends. The word mixmaster has been used for these guys, but I don't believe it's universal. Lynne's right: it's from the rap culture, in turn borrowed from Caribbean dub mixes from the calypso/ragamuffin/reggae scene. It's complicated. The other version is a tape you might put together for a friend, like your Dale's kids are doing. My kith and kin have been doing this as long as I can remember (I'm somewhere between 25 and 27). You use favorite songs, songs whose titles or lyrics apply to your relationship or mood, or maybe just songs that you wouldn't mind hearing over and over on a three-day road trip. It's just a mix of tunes. Grant Barrett Dialect Dilettante ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:48:35 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "my bad" my bad is used by kids all over the US. It was anyway about 2 years ago or maybe three. I have taught junior high in 4 states in the last 15 years and it was everywhere. The black kids used it first like you suggested and then the white ones. tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:10:46 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: barefoot and pregnant Rick Blom said: I was far too glib in saying that "preganant is happy". It was an unfortunate shorthand for a far more complicated social reality, and I used it, in part, because I am a little uncertain of my footing here. I have heard the expression used by men who thought that women who were pregnant were less likely to challenge, demand, or leave. For those men, submission, tolerance, or acceptance is equivalent to happiness. Their assumptions are based on reality: a woman who is pregnant or who has small childrem has fewer options and is therefore constrained to accept things which she might resist in other circumstances. Shorthand can be quicksand, and I stepped right in it this time. ------------------------- Well, step right back out, before you sink. I think your perceptions are both accurate and thoughtful. Maybe these men find that the submission/acceptance of "their" women makes them--the men --happy. And since a woman's primary job is to make her man happy, that must make her happy...?!? My father's family has a long history in the Pennsylvania hill country. The phrase was used with a sense of long familiarity by my grandfather and his cronies. Although I have nothing but this anecdotal evidence to offer, I suspect that "barefoot and pregnant" was in common use in this area well before WWII. [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:11:26 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given Others have attested the dating of _funeralize_ back into the 19th century. It was used then and until recently in country and mountain churches who were traditionally served by circuit-riding pastors who often could not reach a community to hold a funeral service until the weather had broken in the spring (or at least some while after the burial itself, which took place the day after passing). The term in Southern Appalachian has tradi- tionally meant "to preach a funeral service (for the benefit of both the deceased and the living)", and since the service may have taken place weeks after the death, several people were sometimes _funearlized_ at the same time. A very useful word in traditional speech/culture, because burial is not entailed and it's far more direct and compact than "preach a funeral sermon for." Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:05:46 -0500 From: "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT, SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY" DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" I have been playing pickup basketball for fifty years, and I first heard "my bad" used in about 1970. I live in Texas, but I thought at the time that it came from the black area of an inner city where pickup basketball is so popular. It simply means, "my fault" or "my mistake." I thought it sounded rather strange at first, and I could not imagine using it, but after hearing it for several years, I one day heard myself saying, "my bad." Now it seems nothing out of the common to say it. Dick Heaberlin English Department Southwest Texas State University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:41:36 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: RE new word? mix Not only to I lov etht mix that you can buy on the street. I also love the mix my hubby creates on tapes for me to listen to our songs in the car. tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 14:46:01 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: "my bad" "My bad" in the sports context reminds me of "I go" in volleyball, which means "I got it!". Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:03:39 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: RE new word? mix -Reply Was that supposed to be "Not only do I love the mix..."? (My daughter & her friends make and pass around their own mixes.) Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Johnnie A. Renick Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 0910.1341 Not only to I lov etht mix that you can buy on the street. I also love the mix my hubby creates on tapes for me to listen to our songs in the car. tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 17:56:08 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Questions from inside: Southern accents An inmate at Alabama State Prison sends a note with these questions: "I have a question concerning dialects in the U.S. In the last few years I've noticed a change in the speech of students in suburban schools. There is not a 'Southern' accent anymore at these schools. It sounds as if it were homogenized with other dialects around the country. Do you have any information on this phenomenon? "Another question I would like to ask. What happened to the old Aristocrat Southern accent? Thank you for your time." These seem reasonable questions to raise on ADS-L. If anyone has good answers, I'll send them on to the questioner. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 18:52:38 -0400 From: Nicole Ralston HZQF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU Subject: No subject given UNLIST HZQF FROM THIS LIST SERVE. THANK-YOU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 19:37:07 -0400 From: Benjamin Barrett Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM Subject: RE new word? mix Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:13:01 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Mix tapes, mixed tapes: I think what is happening here (if you'll pardon my amateur attempt) is that mix = mixed. The "x" and the "ed" have collided and the "x" has become the dominant sound. I think this could probably be called a rule. I don't think I ever hear (or say) iced before a consonant: ice tea, ice cafe latte, etc., and the spelling is disappearing quickly. Benjamin Barrett (no known relation) gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gnn.com Benjamin Barrett gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gnn.com http://members.gnn.com/gogaku/translator.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:05:10 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: oh those ignorant southerners . . . I find this in my e-mail: Saying I thought ["barefoot and pregnant"] originated in the South was too generic. I had in mind, but did not say, that I thought it was southern Appalachain in origin. It certainly is associated with lower socioeconomic classes. I assumed it migrated into the Upper Midwest and Northeast during the movements associated with World War 11, which brought a lot of "Southern" culture north. These opinions are based on a superficial knowledge and open to correction. Speaking as one who lived the first 27 years of his life in the midwest and the next 27 in North Carolina, I fail to understand why one should assume that because a phrase conveys a sense of male oppression of women then that phrase is most likely to have originated in "Southern" or "Appalachian" culture. And speaking as one who has had a good deal of social interaction with both the "lower socioeconomic classes" and the nonlower "socioeconomic classes," I fail to understand why it is valid to assume that male oppression of females must "certainly" originate in the "lower" orders, among all those blue collars, dirt farmers, and black laborers. Regardless of where it started, there is more than enough patriarchal attitude in the midwest to create a phrase such as "barefoot and pregnant." And there is "certainly" enough patriarchal attitude among the NONlower classes to have created a phrase such as "barefoot and pregnant." Just visit a few fraternity houses on some college campuses. Or country-club men's locker rooms. Both regional bigotry and classist (or is it racist?) assumption-making are every bit as ignorant and harmful as the sexist sentiments betrayed by a phrase such as "barefoot and pregnant." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 21:05:26 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: thanks re funeralize Thanks to all for the info on FUNERALIZE. In the cultural context, it makes sense--even if to this outsider it sounds like a bizzare hyper form. I would have said that the church was where the children had been baptized and where the wife's funeral had "taken place" or "been held." What surprises me is the fact that the television reporter seemed clearly to find the expression perfectly natural. My partner--who has lived in urban North & South Carolina all his 41 years--found the expression as strange as I did. And in my 30 years here in Durham I don't think that I've ever heard it, either. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:48:57 -0400 From: Jason Wilke wilke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NJ2.N-JCENTER.COM Subject: Re: RE new word? mix Not only to I lov etht mix that you can buy on the street. I also love the mix my hubby creates on tapes for me to listen to our songs in the car. tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com I have not heard exactly that term used, but I will say I do this myself. It's quite common practise almost everywhere. Jason ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Sep 1996 to 10 Sep 1996 *********************************************** There are 35 messages totalling 1021 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Questions from inside: Southern accents (2) 2. oh those ignorant southerners . . . (2) 3. offload (4) 4. Southern accent 5. barefoot in the north 6. Southern accent -Reply (2) 7. Which Southern accent... (4) 8. the origin of "Barefoot and Pregnant 9. Southern accent - (2) 10. Greasy et al. (8) 11. once-off feature 12. Real Audio/Macs 13. Offload, 1940s 14. RE Real Audio/Macs (2) 15. R-FUll/Lessnes 16. PIZZA! 17. s - z ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:38:23 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Questions from inside: Southern accents Living in Alabama I have noticed some variations in the accents in recent years but I still do not see a lack of accent. The intermiongling with people from other parts of the country. In the last year we have just moved back to Alabama and I have noticed my seven year old has become well adapted with the dialect already. She has never been in the state before and now she is beginning to talk like a true southern belle. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 03:55:33 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: oh those ignorant southerners . . . At 09:05 PM 9/10/96 -0400, you wrote: Speaking as one who lived the first 27 years of his life in the midwest and the next 27 in North Carolina, I fail to understand why one should assume that because a phrase conveys a sense of male oppression of women then that phrase is most likely to have originated in "Southern" or "Appalachian" culture. And speaking as one who has had a good deal of social interaction with both the "lower socioeconomic classes" and the nonlower "socioeconomic classes," I fail to understand why it is valid to assume that male oppression of females must "certainly" originate in the "lower" orders, among all those blue collars, dirt farmers, and black laborers. Is it possible that the impulsive association of "barefoot and pregnant" with the South comes not from supposed patriarchy but from the "barefoot" component? How could you possibly keep a woman barefoot in the North? Also, to get back on subject, I've always heard this as "barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen," and always from a secondary source (i.e., "Men like him always want to keep women ..."). David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:24:04 -0400 From: Marie Nigro NIGRO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU.LINCOLN.EDU Subject: offload On this morning's traffic report, the speaker warned motorists of an overturned tractor trailer on the east bound lane of the Schuykill Expressway (leading to Philadelphia). The cargo was a load of beer, and the road would be closed until the beer could be "offloaded." The term offload (off-load)? was repeated several times by others on the radio and on TV, leading me to assume the term was used in the original report. Has anyone heard this term before? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:30:49 -0400 From: Mary Brown Zeigler engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANTHER.GSU.EDU Subject: Re: Questions from inside: Southern accents In July, a few weeks before the Olympics, I talked with some British broadcasters who had the same question "Is the Southern accent dying out or homogenizing?" My response to him at that time was "No." For several reasons, Southern and all the many varieties of Southern are not dying out because of the influx of Northerners into the South. One: there are certainly more Southerners than Northerners here; there contact with us will cause them to become more like us than we like them, unless of course, there is active resistance. Two: Southerners who like being Southerners will keep on talking in a way that represents them as such. ch Mary B. Zeigler Georgia State University Department of English mzeigler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsu.edu Atlanta, GA 30303 (404) 651-2900 On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Allan Metcalf wrote: An inmate at Alabama State Prison sends a note with these questions: "I have a question concerning dialects in the U.S. In the last few years I've noticed a change in the speech of students in suburban schools. There is not a 'Southern' accent anymore at these schools. It sounds as if it were homogenized with other dialects around the country. Do you have any information on this phenomenon? "Another question I would like to ask. What happened to the old Aristocrat Southern accent? Thank you for your time." These seem reasonable questions to raise on ADS-L. If anyone has good answers, I'll send them on to the questioner. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:44:33 -0400 From: Mary Brown Zeigler engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANTHER.GSU.EDU Subject: Re: Southern accent As I was saying when my line time expired... Three, even though the accents of Southerners, from Virginia to East Texas, may not be the same as they were, even a generation ago, there will be a Southern accent as distinguishable from a Northern one because regionalism continues to exist. Lots of reasons for that: pride, personal -group identity, lack of/limited interactive contact, Southern teachers in Southern schools, and so on. Some comments. A whole treatise could be written on this, more than one. Mary B. Zeigler Georgia State University Department of English mzeigler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsu.edu Atlanta, GA 30303 (404) 651-2900 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:11:57 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: barefoot in the north A contributor wonders: Is it possible that the impulsive association of "barefoot and pregnant" with the South comes not from supposed patriarchy but from the "barefoot" component? How could you possibly keep a woman barefoot in the North? Well, now, how could you "keep someone barefoot" in Georgia in the winter? And why couldn't you "keep someone barefoot" in Ohio in the summer (and pregnant in the winter)? The weather in "Appalachia," which the original contributor guessed must be the "cultural" source of the invidious phrase, is no different from the weather in much of the midwest. A genereous try, here, but it won't cover up the "impulsive" bigotry of the original classist, racist, Yankee cultural arrogance! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:55:34 EDT From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: oh those ignorant southerners . . . It seems to me that, contrary to what David Johns suggests, that "barefoot" would be an even better way of keeping someone under control in the north than in the south. Just think, for a moment: if someone stole your shoes in January, would you rather be in Georgia or New Hampshire? On the other hand, maybe the "barefoot" part has less to do with not owning shoes than with feet swelling in pregnancy, something "ladylike" shoes don't accommodate well. In other words, maybe someone noticed that pregnant women are likely to take their shoes off indoors, even in situations where other women would consider it improper. This speculation is a lot of fun, but I'm starting to wish for some more data on the distribution of the phrase. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:04:47 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Southern accent -Reply Mary B. Ziegler assures us that the "Southern accent" is not dying out and will not. Maybe so -- I'll grant it for the sake of argument -- but... Here we have the same question being asked by different people in the same time frame. Evidently the IMPRESSION exists, at least for some, that the Southern accent is melting into a generalized American speech pattern. This prompts me to ask a metaquestion: What is causing this impression? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:34:14 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: offload On this morning's traffic report, the speaker warned motorists of an overturned tractor trailer on the east bound lane of the Schuykill Expressway (leading to Philadelphia). The cargo was a load of beer, and the road would be closed until the beer could be "offloaded." The term offload (off-load)? was repeated several times by others on the radio and on TV, leading me to assume the term was used in the original report. Has anyone heard this term before? i know this more in terms of "get rid of" rather than "unload". as in "we offloaded our backstock of souvenir ashtrays onto some unsuspecting tourists." lynne m. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:49:01 -0400 From: "William C. Spruiell" 3lfyuji[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMICH.EDU Subject: Which Southern accent... A message forwarded by Alan Metcalf contains: "Another question I would like to ask. What happened to the old = Aristocrat Southern accent?=20 I was left wondering what was meant by the "Old Aristocrat" accent. As a = native of Alabama, from an area in which Coastal and Southern Midland = forms mix, I had always had the impression that the Coastal dialect was = *perceived* as more "refined" (perhaps because of the difference between = classic media stereotypes: Scarlett O'Hara vs. Grandma Clampett). If, = however, the writer was referring to the Coastal dialect as the = "aristocratic" one, it would be difficult to see how it could be dying = out -- any syllable-final r's one finds in south Georgia or Alabama are = usually clinging desperately to a midwesterner, terrified that their = native habitat will disappear. Are there (or were there recently) = strong class-dialect distinctions *within* Coastal that could be meant = by "the aristocrat Southern accent"? If so, are they, or have they, died = out? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 11:57:52 -0500 From: Michael Linn mlinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]D.UMN.EDU Subject: the origin of "Barefoot and Pregnant If you check your sources you will find that this invidious phrase has its origin in the late Middle Ages or, more likely, the early rennaisance. It was advice to a husband to prevent is wife from having an affair with other men. If she was barefoot in the winter she would be confined to the house and supposedly not be able to meet her lover and if she were pregnant in the summer she would supposedly not be interested. Sexism and control has been around for a long time. On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer wrote: It seems to me that, contrary to what David Johns suggests, that "barefoot" would be an even better way of keeping someone under control in the north than in the south. Just think, for a moment: if someone stole your shoes in January, would you rather be in Georgia or New Hampshire? On the other hand, maybe the "barefoot" part has less to do with not owning shoes than with feet swelling in pregnancy, something "ladylike" shoes don't accommodate well. In other words, maybe someone noticed that pregnant women are likely to take their shoes off indoors, even in situations where other women would consider it improper. This speculation is a lot of fun, but I'm starting to wish for some more data on the distribution of the phrase. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:05:13 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re: Which Southern accent... On class differences within Southern English. Raven McDavid wrote a classic sociolinguistic treatise on "The Distribution of Post-vocalic /r/ in South Carolina" (date?). He went so far as to claim that r-ful Southerners would be more likely to be racists, since the -r was associated with the poor whites who had been manipulated by Yankee industrialists into competition with blacks for jobs. Being an r-ful person myself from Atlanta, I took strong exception to that, but of course, language changes and Southerners, like New Yorkers, are adopting the r. All this can be traced back to settlement patterns and the economic and cultural power held by particular cities. R-lessness (which I definitely associate with an "aristocratic" sound) was centered in the plantation areas and thus was common for both blacks and upper- class whites. The areas with smaller farms were upland, with more Scots-Irish influence and less influence from London (comp. to cities such as Charleston and Savannah) and African languages. Feagin cites the latter as an influence on r-lessness in a forthcoming paper (LAVIS proceedings). At any rate, Charleston has gone from being a prestigious focal area to a relic area. Newer, upland, Southern cities are now more influential (Atlanta, Charlotte, Greenville-Spartanburg, Birmingham, etc.) In these cities, especially, what was perhaps mostly a regional difference (upland vs. coastal) became a socially-stratified one. It is difficult to find a white native of Atlanta less than 40 years old who is r-less, although their parents may be if they are in the higher socioeconomic classes. there was a wonderful radio commercial a few years ago with an old lady advertising a club called the "R and R" who exemplified this "aristocratic" accent perfectly. There are still plenty of pronunciation to continue marking these natives as Southerners, and indeed there are class markers, too, but it does seem to me that the r-less accent of the old plantation is a thing of the past among that social group. Speakers of African American Vernacular English will probably keep some of its features for a long time to come, however. Ellen Johnson ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:16:46 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Which Southern accent... From the other end of the Southern dialect area: When I went to Antioch College (in Yellow Springs) in the early 60s, it was very noticeable that southeastern Ohio was south of some of the isoglosses that distinguish northern from southern speech. A well-defined local speech, spoken by the genuine "townies" such as local village business owners, was quite distinct from that of both the students and the many transplants from elsewhere. Even the announcer at the Dayton airport spoke "Ohaa" speech. (Sorry, there are no ASCII symbols to even approximate an IPA rendering.) When I myself became a transplanted townie in the mid-70s I was astonished to find that the old "Ohaa" speech had virtually disappeared. I remember a single person in the village--a barber, in his 20s--who had southern features in his speech, but I'm not sure whether or not he was a native of the area. Granted Yellow Springs is an exceptional place because it remains a mecca for former Antioch students from all over the country and a popular bedroom community for the transient employees of nearby Wright Patterson AFB, but I don't recall hearing the speech anywhere else in the area, either, during my second sojourn there, which lasted about six years. So I'm inclined to see it as evidence that the southern language area has shrunk toward the Kentucky border, at least in that area of Ohio. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 10:51:59 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: offload On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: On this morning's traffic report, the speaker warned motorists of an overturned tractor trailer on the east bound lane of the Schuykill Expressway (leading to Philadelphia). The cargo was a load of beer, and the road would be closed until the beer could be "offloaded." The term offload (off-load)? was repeated several times by others on the radio and on TV, leading me to assume the term was used in the original report. Has anyone heard this term before? i know this more in terms of "get rid of" rather than "unload". as in "we offloaded our backstock of souvenir ashtrays onto some unsuspecting tourists." lynne m. Funny! My perception is just the opposite. I know I have heard "offload" quite a bit, without remarking on it as new, though I suppose it is. The meaning was always the same as "unload" in its literal sense. (Sorry, I can't supply any specific citations.) But I have known "unload" in the meaning "palm off on someone who out of politeness or naivete will be unable to resist" for a long time. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:13:47 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Southern accent - Southern accents are probably not in danger of extinction, but my observations of freshmen arriving from the South here at Princeton show that many have no trace of the salient southern phonetic features like monophthongs in the vowel of my, etc. They could easily pass as northerners. The same is true for speakers from eastern New England and New York City. So there is movement away from the local standard to what is perceived as a national standard. Maybe not much, but some. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 14:57:28 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: Greasy et al. We were talking about the "greasy line" the other day in class and the questions came up of whether the same /s/ vs. /z/ contrast occurs medially in other words and whether this might be regionally patterned as for _greasy_. The following words were suggested as possibilities: visa/Visa. I tend to hear the voiced fricative here in South Carolina; is the voiceless alternative common in the North? Does the Romance pronunciation with s influence its English pronunciation anywhere? Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. breezy. I wouldn't have thought there was any variation here, but I've noticed the pronunciation with s on national weather forecases, as on the Weather Channel. Is this pronounced with s in the North, perhaps by analogy with _greasy_? I remember being told in graduate school that the greasy line pertained to a once-off feature, but am not now so sure. Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 12:13:33 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: offload Peter's understanding of "offload" seems closer to mine. one can "offload cargo" but "unload the truck" (not "offload the truck"); or, one can "unload the truck" on some unwitting buyer for much more than it is worth. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washingtonl.edu On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Peter McGraw wrote: On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: On this morning's traffic report, the speaker warned motorists of an overturned tractor trailer on the east bound lane of the Schuykill Expressway (leading to Philadelphia). The cargo was a load of beer, and the road would be closed until the beer could be "offloaded." The term offload (off-load)? was repeated several times by others on the radio and on TV, leading me to assume the term was used in the original report. Has anyone heard this term before? i know this more in terms of "get rid of" rather than "unload". as in "we offloaded our backstock of souvenir ashtrays onto some unsuspecting tourists." lynne m. Funny! My perception is just the opposite. I know I have heard "offload" quite a bit, without remarking on it as new, though I suppose it is. The meaning was always the same as "unload" in its literal sense. (Sorry, I can't supply any specific citations.) But I have known "unload" in the meaning "palm off on someone who out of politeness or naivete will be unable to resist" for a long time. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:25:00 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Greasy et al. as a northerner: visa/Visa. I tend to hear the voiced fricative here in South Carolina; is the voiceless alternative common in the North? Does the Romance pronunciation with s influence its English pronunciation anywhere? i use [s], but sometimes it gets a bit voicy. Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. definitely 's' (and i'm from thereabouts). the other thing to know about local pronunciation of syracuse is that the first syllable rhymes with hair: saracuse. breezy. I wouldn't have thought there was any variation here, but I've noticed the pronunciation with s on national weather forecases, as on the Weather Channel. Is this pronounced with s in the North, perhaps by analogy with _greasy_? definitely z for me. breesy is weird. maybe sound-symbolic? incidentally, i know people in upstate new york who say "greazy", but i think this is meant to be sound-symbolic. pizza can be greazy, but your hands after doing car work are greasy. lynne ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:29:02 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: once-off feature Michael Montgomery writes about the pronunciation of "greasy": I remember being told in graduate school that the greasy line pertained to a once-off feature, but am not now so sure. "Once-off feature" is a phrase new to me. I know the term "one-off", applied to a commercial object that is normally made in mass quantities, but which in the case under discussion is being made in quantity one. (Ghod, what a convoluted syntax I have to use here!!! Is there a better way to say this?) It may be a CD-ROM bearing data in a special format requested by one customer, or a custom chip produced as a sample, or a game card (e.g. "Magic: The Gathering") produced as a gift for a VIP. I understand Michael to mean "a feature that applies to only one item in the lexicon". Is that it? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:05:13 -0500 From: Kimberly Thompson krt3638[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GRIFFON.MWSC.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. Personally, I had never heard of "Visa" pronounced with a voiced fricative, but some of my colleagues have. (I was so intrigued, I asked them.) Here in the Midland, (MO), from my own experience, I would judged voiced fricatives to be both less common than s, and somewhat considered a lower class dialect. For instance, my pizza is never "greazy". Greasy, maybe, but that seems to make it taste just a little bit better. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:17:06 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Real Audio/Macs [Lots of comments about Real Audio and the use of Macs] I knew there was a reason I liked RIS despite his politickin. He uses a Mac. Nancy: It sounds like you have a Mac. I do Mac tech support, training and troubleshooting for a living. If you'll send me details, I'll see what we can figure out. Send me Mac model, RAM, version of Navigator, version of Real Audio, symptoms, error messages, etc. For starters, if you open the Real Audio player, you'll find an item under the File menu that says "Open Recent". There you can pick out of the list items you heard before but may want to hear again. Also, if you are having problems by clicking on a certain link, try a bunch of others. I find that the server on the other end often rejects requests. It may have nothing to do with your computer at all. Mike: Have you had a chance to play with MkLinux yet? I'm waiting for the PCI port to check it out. Grant Barrett I support Macs for a living. The other 90 percent of my job is doing whatever I want. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:58:52 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. Michael didn't mention the example which goes in the other direction - 'electricity' (which everybody knows has an /s/), but which some Northerners render with a /z/. Is there a generalization (or trend) lurking among these facts or not? Dennis (always with an /s/) Preston (lo mismo) We were talking about the "greasy line" the other day in class and the questions came up of whether the same /s/ vs. /z/ contrast occurs medially in other words and whether this might be regionally patterned as for _greasy_. The following words were suggested as possibilities: visa/Visa. I tend to hear the voiced fricative here in South Carolina; is the voiceless alternative common in the North? Does the Romance pronunciation with s influence its English pronunciation anywhere? Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. breezy. I wouldn't have thought there was any variation here, but I've noticed the pronunciation with s on national weather forecases, as on the Weather Channel. Is this pronounced with s in the North, perhaps by analogy with _greasy_? I remember being told in graduate school that the greasy line pertained to a once-off feature, but am not now so sure. Michael Montgomery Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:04:52 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. On Wed, 11 Sep 1996, Michael Montgomery asked: We were talking about the "greasy line" the other day in class and the questions came up of whether the same /s/ vs. /z/ contrast occurs medially in other words and whether this might be regionally patterned as for _greasy_. The following words were suggested as possibilities: visa/Visa. I tend to hear the voiced fricative here in South Carolina; is the voiceless alternative common in the North? Does the Romance pronunciation with s influence its English pronunciation anywhere? So far as I remember, I have never said or heard the voiced fricative. Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. I say /z/. breezy. I wouldn't have thought there was any variation here, but I've noticed the pronunciation with s on national weather forecases, as on the Weather Channel. Is this pronounced with s in the North, perhaps by analogy with _greasy_? As a good southerner, I always say /z/. Good question! Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 15:49:19 CDT From: Randy Roberts robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Offload, 1940s "Among the New Words" in American Speech (February 1951), p. 53 has an entry for offload. The earliest cite is from the Saturday Evening Post in 1949. Other citations from the early 1950s suggest a regular use of the term in print in American, British and South African publications. These "other" citations I found in the files here at the U. of Missouri. Randy Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:51:33 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Real Audio/Macs I'm a moron. I drag and dropped the wrong address. This should have gone to the Bubba list, which I would recommend to anyone as one of the best non-professional, non-educational lists on the Internet. Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- Date: 9/11/96 4:44 PM To: Grant Barrett From: Grant Barrett [Lots of comments about Real Audio and the use of Macs] I knew there was a reason I liked RIS despite his politickin. He uses a Mac. Nancy: It sounds like you have a Mac. I do Mac tech support, training and troubleshooting for a living. If you'll send me details, I'll see what we can figure out. Send me Mac model, RAM, version of Navigator, version of Real Audio, symptoms, error messages, etc. For starters, if you open the Real Audio player, you'll find an item under the File menu that says "Open Recent". There you can pick out of the list items you heard before but may want to hear again. Also, if you are having problems by clicking on a certain link, try a bunch of others. I find that the server on the other end often rejects requests. It may have nothing to do with your computer at all. Mike: Have you had a chance to play with MkLinux yet? I'm waiting for the PCI port to check it out. Grant Barrett I support Macs for a living. The other 90 percent of my job is doing whatever I want. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:34:34 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. As a good northerner, I've never heard or used /z/ in electricity, but do have /z/ in visa. beth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:43:20 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. At 03:05 PM 9/11/96 -0500, you wrote: Personally, I had never heard of "Visa" pronounced with a voiced fricative, but some of my colleagues have. (I was so intrigued, I asked them.) Here in the Midland, (MO), from my own experience, I would judged voiced fricatives to be both less common than s, and somewhat considered a lower class dialect. For instance, my pizza is never "greazy". Greasy, maybe, but that seems to make it taste just a little bit better. I always thought that "visa" (= entry authorization) had [s], while "Visa" (card) had [z]. I also seem to remember some vacillation when the card first came out (wasn't it originally BankAmericard?). But not being a traveler, I use "Visa" so much more often than "visa" that I think I normally pronounce visa with [z] today. David Johns Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 17:43:23 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Which Southern accent... At 11:49 AM 9/11/96 -0400, Bill Spruiell wrote: I was left wondering what was meant by the "Old Aristocrat" accent. As a = native of Alabama, from an area in which Coastal and Southern Midland = forms mix, I had always had the impression that the Coastal dialect was = *perceived* as more "refined" (perhaps because of the difference between = classic media stereotypes: Scarlett O'Hara vs. Grandma Clampett). If, = however, the writer was referring to the Coastal dialect as the = "aristocratic" one, it would be difficult to see how it could be dying = out -- any syllable-final r's one finds in south Georgia or Alabama are = usually clinging desperately to a midwesterner, terrified that their = native habitat will disappear. Are there (or were there recently) = strong class-dialect distinctions *within* Coastal that could be meant = by "the aristocrat Southern accent"? If so, are they, or have they, died = out? Here in southeast Georgia, there is a fairly sharp accent change which distinguishes those over about 50 from those younger. The main difference is the presence or absence of the southern vowel shift -- younger speakers have extremely fronted (and even unrounded) /u/ and /o/, lowered /i/ and /e/ diphthongs (i.e., /i/ - [ej], /e/ - [&j]) tensed /I/ and /E/, etc. Only in the oldest speakers, maybe over 65, can I hear traces of R-lessness, and then only in very weak syllables (e.g., interview). As I understand it, this area was never in the plantation belt. In the 19th century the population consisted mainly of subsistence farmers living in the piney woods, with turpentine being a major crop in the early 20th century. I don't know if there ever was an aristocratic class around here; today the prestige class consists mostly of locally born physicians and dentists. They speak differently, mainly in that they resist the southern vowel shift much more than other groups. Of course, they are also among the few that have gone off to college, so who knows what causes what. Blacks have not followed their white contemporaries in the vowel shift, and that leaves younger blacks and whites of the same socioeconomic status with accents much more distinct than those of earlier generations. Given the age group in which the shift suddenly appears, those who would have been teenagers in the late 50s and early 60s, I've often wondered whether the innovative pronunciation was an unconscious attempt by young whites to establish their identity in an age of turmoil. By the way, the vowel shift also seems to be a "town" accent. The most rural of the people I meet have much less of it than town folk. Also, men have on the average shifted much less than women. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 16:55:04 -0600 From: POLSKY ELLEN S Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. What about words that end in voiceless fricatives? When the plural -s is added, some people keep the voiceless feature and some make the fricatives voiced? "Houses" and "baths" come to mind. Is it regional? (I tend to think not.) Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 19:39:38 -0400 From: "E. Wayles Browne" ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU Subject: Re: RE Real Audio/Macs I'm a moron. ... Grant Barrett I support Macs for a living. The other 90 percent of my job is doing whatever I want. Not a moron, but a godsend. You are discussing a problem of great interest to me and probably other linguists as well. I have a Mac LC575, 2 and a half years old, using System Software 7.1. Am I right in thinking that the RealAudio player won't work on my machine? Is there some hack or alternative player that will work? Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:42:09 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Southern accent -Reply Mary B. Ziegler assures us that the "Southern accent" is not dying out and will not. Maybe so -- I'll grant it for the sake of argument -- but... Here we have the same question being asked by different people in the same time frame. Evidently the IMPRESSION exists, at least for some, that the Southern accent is melting into a generalized American speech pattern. This prompts me to ask a metaquestion: What is causing this impression? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Just as you say: it is an IMPRESSION, not the facts, even if it was shared by everybody. I once characterized this kind of inquiry in linguistics as "wishful and hypermetropic." (Please don't take it personally.) Most of the people who perpetuate that impression don't even have a reference point for diachronic comparison. Mary Zeigler just gave a very good set of reasons to falsify the myth. The situation is even more complex, starting from the fact that Southern English is no more socially homogeneous than any other dialect. Not all of that variation necessarily reflects/entails change. Sali. ******************************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 ******************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 18:42:10 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Southern accent - Southern accents are probably not in danger of extinction, but my observations of freshmen arriving from the South here at Princeton show that many have no trace of the salient southern phonetic features like monophthongs in the vowel of my, etc. They could easily pass as northerners. The same is true for speakers from eastern New England and New York City. So there is movement away from the local standard to what is perceived as a national standard. Maybe not much, but some. Humans/Animals are ADAPTIVE to new environments, unless they insist on standing out or are simply incapable of some adjustments. What you invoke is NO evidence for speculating that Southern English is changing. Sali. ******************************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 ******************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:49:18 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: R-FUll/Lessnes -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 21:05:03 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: PIZZA! "Pizza" etymologies have been very greasy and all should be deeply panned. While my "pizza papers" are not yet up to "hot dog" standards, here are some antedates. There is no doubt that pizza became popular after WWII, and that Dean Martin and other crooners hit your eye with it way back in the '50s. But if you look in various pizza books, the first pizzeria in the west was opened at 53 1/2 Spring Street in New York City by Gennaro Lombardi in 1905. OED has the first "pizza" in 1935, and the first "pizzeria" in 1943--from a John Steinbeck novel! Way off! Yikes!! It's hard to believe I can break new ground on pizza--perhaps the world's favorite dish nowadays--but here goes. The 1911-12 Manhattan Directory lists a Verra Pizzeria grocer at 146 Mulberry Street, although this is Vera Pizzeria baker in the 1913-14 Directory. Gennaro Lombardi's restaurant at 53 1/2 Spring is not in the 1915-16 Directory, but Antonio Lombardo baker at 55 Spring is there. Only in the 1920-21 Manhattan Directory did I find a Gennaro Lombardi restr at 53 1/2 Spring. In the 1922-23 Directory, Grande Pizzeria Napoletano is listed under G. Lombardi at 53 1/2 Spring. So, our first western "pizzeria" is probably 1911 at 146 Mulberry Street. Gennaro Lombardi's claim cannot be verified. And out with Steinbeck! Out! Out! This is from the Kansas City (MO) Journal, 18 June 1905, pg. 2, col. 7. As usual, I found it strictly by accident: ITALIAN DELICATESSEN EVER EATEN PIZZE CAVULE OR TRIED TARALLUCCI? Pizze Are Neapolitan Pancakes Highly Flavored and Cooked With Cheese and Tomato--Tarallucci Go With Coffee. (New York Correspondence for The Journal.) "Let us go and get pizze cavule," said the Dago. The Dago is a graduate of a technical school and has a place with a big electrical firm. He says he does not mind being called a "dago," but that he will not be called a ginney. ... "What's pizze--pizze--what did you call them?" "Come and see," said the Dago. "There are only two places in New York where you can get real, genuine Neapolitan pizze. One is on Spring street and one on Grand. All the rest are Americanized substitutes." They took a surface car downtown, transferred to a horsecar and jogged placidly eastward to the Spring street pizze shop. On the window were the cabalistic words, "Pizze Cavule," and the window itself was piled high with Italian cheeses. ... "It's something to eat," said the woman, "but what is it?" "If you had ever been in Naples," said the Dago, "you would know pizze cavule. Every tourist is bound to taste them as one of the features of the city." ... He took one of the fat rolls and with a few slaps on the shelf flattened it until it was a little thicker than a pancake and a little larger than ordinary pie. After it was flattened he dabbed bits of lard all over the surface. Then he sprinkled it all over with grated Roman cheese, from a dishful which stood beside him. Then he poured on cooked tomato, and on top threw a handful of aregata, the spicy, aromatic herb, which is a favorite Italian seasoning. The whole operation had not taken him more than a minute. Then he slapped it on a broad, flat, long-handled paddle, and thrust it into an oven beside him. In two minutes he pulled it out, and sent it to the table on a big, round pewter plate. Also he sent individual plates--this in deference to American patronage. The pastry seemed to be a cross between bread dough and pie crust, and was not lacking in suggestions that when cold it might lie, with some heaviness in an unaccustomed interior. Nevertheless, it was enticing by reason of its hotness and crispness, and the cunning blend of spicy flavors. "Pizze cavule," said her escort, "means simply 'hot cakes.' You won't find the words in the dictionary, because they aren't Italian, but Neapolitan dialect. In Naples they sell the little fellows on the street for 1 cent apiece. A favorite cry for them at the doors of the bakeries in Naples is 'Ca' pummarola e alice,' which is dialect for 'with tomatoes and anchovy.' They make some of them with anchovy over there, but I never saw any in New York." That's the story and etymology of "pizza." The annual San Gennaro Festival takes place in New York City in late September, but last year's was cancelled because of an investigation of mob ties. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 20:21:40 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: s - z Did anyone else notice this on All Things Considered tonight? (I probably wouldn't have remarked it without today's ADS-L discussion.) The reporter in North Carolina telling us about the post-hurricane clean-up said [hawsIs] where I'd have had [hawziz] or [hawzizs]. beth ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Sep 1996 to 11 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 16 messages totalling 384 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. oh those ignorant southerners . . . 2. Re[2]: Greasy et al. (2) 3. Southern accent - 4. Greasy et al. (4) 5. Re[3]: Greasy et al. 6. Re[2]: Southern accent - 7. soda jerk lingo 8. offload 9. pop goes the weasel (2) 10. Greasy et al. -Reply 11. Popik on pizza ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 07:07:10 -0400 From: Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLAZIE.COM Subject: Re: oh those ignorant southerners . . . Ron Butters wrote: Speaking as one who lived the first 27 years of his life in the midwest and the next 27 in North Carolina, I fail to understand why one should assume that because a phrase conveys a sense of male oppression of women then that phrase is most likely to have originated in "Southern" or "Appalachian" culture. And speaking as one who has had a good deal of social interaction with both the "lower socioeconomic classes" and the nonlower "socioeconomic classes," I fail to understand why it is valid to assume that male oppression of females must "certainly" originate in the "lower" orders, among all those blue collars, dirt farmers, and black laborers. snip... Both regional bigotry and classist (or is it racist?) assumption-making are every bit as ignorant and harmful as the sexist sentiments betrayed by a phrase such as "barefoot and pregnant." Ron is either planting his tongue firmly in one or another cheek, or he did not read my original post. There is not a single word in it that indicates I thought the origin was Southern because it conveyed a sense of male oppression. I did not assume male oppression must "certainly" originate with the "lower" orders. I said I thought the phrase had a southern Appalachian origin, without giving, or hinting at, any reason. In fact, I drew my conclusion in large part from my father, who grew up in the hills of Kentucky, in a shack, and who heard the expression frequently from the late 1920s through the early 1940s, when he left to join the army. He heard it far less frequently in the Northeast and the mid-Atlantic, but found it fairly common in east Texas in the late 40s. My own, more limited experience, was that it was fairly common among coal miners in West Virginia in the 1970s (I was a reporter covering labor and union issues there), and far less common in the mid-Atlantic, at least in middle class neighborhoods (where I mostly grew up). I also did not say anything to suggest that sexism, classism, and other isms are not prevalent everywhere. I merely suggested that this phrase, and only this phrase, might have orginated in the south. Any other interpretation is hysterical. Rick Blom rblom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blazie.com Bel Air, Maryland ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:32:58 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Greasy et al. I use the /z/ for both types of visa (b. Atlanta, 1959). My thanks to you for finding a word besides "greasy" to demonstrate this variation. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:48:52 -0500 From: "Joseph C. Salmons" jsalmons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Greasy et al. I use the /z/ for both types of visa (b. Atlanta, 1959). My thanks to you for finding a word besides "greasy" to demonstrate this variation. Is 'parsley' another such word? 'Visa' has voicing much farther north than 'greasy'--many Wisconsin speakers have /z/ in 'visa but not in the latter word--but many southerners have /s/ in 'parsley'. Or is /z/ in this word an oddity for southern spkrs? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:56:38 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Southern accent - Sali writes in reply to my observation that some Princeton freshmen have virtually no trace of southern features: Humans/Animals are ADAPTIVE to new environments, unless they insist on standing out or are simply incapable of some adjustments. What you invoke is NO evidence for speculating that Southern English is changing. I neglected to mention that I was referring to Princeton freshmen who were fresh from the South-- in their first week here, so adaptation to the college environment played no role. These are people who grew up in the South and went to school there. Perhaps some Southerners could comment on the situation in their communities- especially high schools. Aren't there some students/ adults who sound northern? Is it occurring more often in private schools? In urban areas? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:56:50 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Greasy et al. In AS 69.3 I reported on the bizarre distribution of /s/ vs /z/ in the noun houses. For me, and for most dictionaries both fricatives are /z/ but there are many speakers who retain the /s/ of the singular, and a significant number who make the medial fricative /z/ but the final one /s/. Some also have medial and final /s/. All four variants occur in all parts of the country. But it seems to me that I'm hearing a lot of devoicing or half-voicing of final /z/ anyway, in all words- was, does.... Can anyone comment on that? Similar changes can be found in Joseph, which for me and I believe historically has /z/, but is /s/ for many now here in NJ and elsewhere. Also Moses for me is /z/ with final /s/, but some dicts. list it also with final /z/. So for me Moses and roses do not rhyme. Lynn notes that Syracuse is pronounced with the vowel of air locally, but I grew up just outside the city and think that's a minority pronunciation, perhaps used mostly by older speakers. It alwas has /s/ up there. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:09:42 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[3]: Greasy et al. Nope, this southerner rhymes parsley with sparsely, both with /s/. I'll listen for it but I think usages of this word are rather sparse. BTW, I'd like to remind folks to put your name and e-mail address at the end of your post. I'm using new software (ccmail) that does not show me the original sender. Maybe there's a way to do it, but I haven't figured it out yet. Another BTW, this one for Ron: is your house at Topsail Beach still standing? I've been thinking about y'all. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 09:18:24 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Southern accent - Yes, there are kids in Southern high schools who sound Northern. One such is the son of one of my professors at UGA. After the boy's voice changed, he was indistinguishable from his dad on the phone, with a pronounced Northeastern dialect. These kids tend to be outsiders of a sort because they don't identify at all with the local culture and hence don't adopt the local speech patterns. They are a small minority, but are probably overrepresented among your sample at Princeton. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:49:17 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Greasy et al. dale coye says: Lynn notes that Syracuse is pronounced with the vowel of air locally, but I grew up just outside the city and think that's a minority pronunciation, perhaps used mostly by older speakers. It alwas has /s/ up there. ahem, maybe it's what's used by younger speakers! i'm but a child (ok, 30 but childish), but this is how people i know identify non- locals. if they say "sirakyuz" instead of "sarakyus" you're allowed to make fun of them. another possibility, though is that the people in syracuse have changed, but the rural counties around it haven't caught up with the city-slickers. i haven't made clear all the possibilities here for that first vowel. i use the vowel in "air" but i have also heard the [i] as in "seersucker" and the [I] in "sir"- -which may actually be a schwa in syracuse. the last is the least common to my mind, but the second is the one that grates on me. lynne (who would like to note that dale isn't the only ads-er who can't spell my name--for shame, you language-oriented people!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 10:04:33 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. Someone called the s-ful pronunciation of _visa_ the "Romance pronunciation." Just for the record, this is inaccurate. In Spanish, the pronunciation is indeed usually s-ful, but there are exceptions: intervocalic s z in parts of Ecuador; s h for some Cuban speakers. However, French _visa_ is always z-ful. In Italian, there is variation between s and z intervocalically, depending upon region and individual speech habits. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:28:13 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: soda jerk lingo In a recent copy of the Oregonian there was an article by Phil Vettel of the Chicago Tribune News Service on the jargon used by soda jerks. The article is probably easier to reproduce than summarize, so here it is. It is fairly long for an e-mail message, so be forwarned. Jerks had a lingo all their own The language of the soda jerk--a system of slang and abbreviations--is all but dead, concedes Lynda Utterback, publisher of the National Dipper Magazine, a trade magazine to 20,000 ice cream stores. "Nobody uses it anymnore," she says. "But they would know what it means." "They" are the 1,500 members of the National Association of Soda Jerks, a group "dedicated to the preservation of American nostalgia" and the heritage of the soda fountain in particular. Though members range from youngsters to one 105-year-old, most true soda jerks would be men in their 80s and 90s today, says founder Betty J. Davis. Generally, in the 1920s and '30s jerks were men (insert punchline here), Davis says; women didn't become soda jerks in significant numbers until the 1940s. Soda jerk jargon, Davis says, had several purposes. Colorful terms added an air of romance and mystery to the soda jerk's performance; "shake one all the way" refered to a chocolate shake with chocolate ice cream, and "shake one in the hay" was a strawberry shake. Other terms were simply used for fun: "Belch water" for a glass of soda, "cow juice" for milk, "dog soup" for plain water. And some phrases let soda jerks talk openly about customers. A "gorp" referred to a greedy eater; "George Eddy" was a nontipper and "87 12" referred to a good looking girl (other terms were more specific about a gilr's attributes). Jargon varied regionally, and even from jerk to jerk, Davis says. For instance, a phosphate made with all syrup floavor added was called a "suicide" in Omaha, and a "graveyard" in Lincoln, Neb. A "black cow" mad with root beer and ice cream, was called a "brown cow" in some regions, and in other parts of the country a "brown cow" was mad with cola, not root beer. A drink made with lime syrup, lime juice and soda water was variously known as a "green river," "lime rickey," "squeeze one" or "green lizard." More jerk jargon, as compiled by the National Association of Soda Jerks: * Adam's Ale: water * Bucket of Hail: ice * Burn One : add malt powder * Chicago Pineapple: soda * Coney Island chicken: hot dog * Glob: plain sundae * House Boat: banana split * Make It Virtue: cherry Coke * Muddy River: chocolate Coke * On wheels: to go * Sand: sugar * Shoot one: small Coke * Shoot one and Stretch it: larger Coke * Shoot it yellow: lemon Coke * Suds: root beer * White cow: vanilla shake END whew! all typos are, of course, mine. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 08:52:13 -0700 From: Lex Olorenshaw lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LSI.SEL.SONY.COM Subject: Re: offload On this morning's traffic report, the speaker warned motorists of an overturned tractor trailer on the east bound lane of the Schuykill Expressway (leading to Philadelphia). The cargo was a load of beer, and the road would be closed until the beer could be "offloaded." The term offload (off-load)? was repeated several times by others on the radio and on TV, leading me to assume the term was used in the original report. Has anyone heard this term before? Offloading physical cargo, sounds a little strange to me. I would say my usage of "offload" is limited to discussions of human resources, as in: "You need to offload that task onto someone else." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw Speech Recognition Group Sony Research Laboratories E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:25:18 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: pop goes the weasel If you have the "Far Side" page-a-day calendar, look at the page for 9/12/96.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 14:37:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Greasy et al. -Reply I've heard /z/ in "electricity" fairly often, and sometimes, with surprise, heard it coming out of my own mouth-- I feel when I'm articulating lazily. I think I *usually* use /z/ in "Visa" (occurring way most frequently in my vocab., and now probably most people's, wrt a credit card). (Paleskin male, raised in NYC and suburbs; age 47.) simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 0911.1634 As a good northerner, I've never heard or used /z/ in electricity, but do have /z/ in visa. beth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:00:32 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Popik on pizza That was a nice history. It may be of interest to know that in these parts, New Havenites learn at their grandparents' knee that American-style pizza was (re)invented by Frank Pepe, who adapted the appetizer-type pizze of his native Naples to the American palate here on Wooster Street, New Haven. Since the local variant here is traditionally dubbed "apizza" (pronounced [aBI:TS]), a search may not have turned up prior cites, a New Haven-born linguist friend points out. On the other hand, the descriptions in Barry Popik's history don't sound THAT different from the New Haven-style pizza, and his earlier cites certainly predate the opening of Pepe's Apizza. Can anyone disconfirm my assumption that 'apizza' (ah-BEETS) is restricted to the New Haven area? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 16:09:14 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel I don't so would you like to share what it says. g ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Sep 1996 17:57:05 -0400 From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Greasy et al. Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. When I was an undergrad at Syr Univ there was a real split between the upstaters who pronounced it [ser[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kus] and we downstaters who said [sir[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kuz] with [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa. I never thought of the -s- as distinctive: I focused on the vowel before /r/. ______________________________________________________ David Bergdahl BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Associate Professor of English Language and Literature Ohio University / Athens fax: (614) 593-2818 ______________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Sep 1996 to 12 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 14 messages totalling 421 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. SYRACUSE 2. FUHGEDDABOUTIT?: the Bowery Boy and "Brooklynese" (2) 3. SYRACUSE / Yuston, Texas 4. 10.0258 NEH Deadlines 5. apizza (2) 6. pop goes the weasel (3) 7. "Houston" 8. Southern accent - 9. tyu-tu 10. Popik on pizza ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 00:15:31 -0400 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: SYRACUSE With regard to the first vowel in Syracuse (relevant prior postings excerpted below, hopefully with attributions intact), I've been hearing [sehrakyus] a lot on sports reports on New York radio the past few years (WCBS-AM, WFAN), and wondering where it came from. Of course, at least some of the WFAN update guys have broadcasting degrees from Syracuse U... [Note that at least some of the confusion below is because there are two variables in the pronunciations of Syracuse (eh) and (S/Z), and they seem to have different geographical and sociolinguistic distributions.] Alice Faber afaber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskin.yale.edu ****************************************************************************** Dale Coyne: Lynn notes that Syracuse is pronounced with the vowel of air locally, but I grew up just outside the city and think that's a minority pronunciation, perhaps used mostly by older speakers. It alwas has /s/ up there. lynne murphy: ahem, maybe it's what's used by younger speakers! i'm but a child (ok, 30 but childish), but this is how people i know identify non- locals. if they say "sirakyuz" instead of "sarakyus" you're allowed to make fun of them. another possibility, though is that the people in syracuse have changed, but the rural counties around it haven't caught up with the city-slickers. i haven't made clear all the possibilities here for that first vowel. i use the vowel in "air" but i have also heard the [i] as in "seersucker" and the [I] in "sir"- -which may actually be a schwa in syracuse. the last is the least common to my mind, but the second is the one that grates on me. David Bergdahl: Syracuse. Many folks I knew growing up (in Tennessee) and other Southerners used the voiced fricate here. Network sportscasters seem all to use the s. When I was an undergrad at Syr Univ there was a real split between the upstaters who pronounced it [ser[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kus] and we downstaters who said [sir[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kuz] with [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa. I never thought of the -s- as distinctive: I focused on the vowel before /r/. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 01:11:20 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: FUHGEDDABOUTIT?: the Bowery Boy and "Brooklynese" "Fuhgeddaboutit" was the subject of a recent William Safire column and an article in the monthly BROOKLYN BRIDGE. Before I left for vacation, David Shulman briefly showed me his article on "Brooklynese" which will appear in AMERICAN SPEECH. "Brooklynese," he wrote, is really the language of the Bowery. Shulman traced it to Frances Chanfrau and the "Mose" stage character from the 1840s. However, is this too early? I can't recall if Shulman mentioned the name Edward Waterman Townsend in his article. I revisited some Townsend stuff, and here it is. Townsend's obituary is in the New York Times, 17 March 1942, pg. 21, col. 3. "Edward Waterman Townsend, author of the Chimmie Fadden stories, the Bowery dialect of which amused thousands of newspaper readers at the turn of the century, died yesterday.... The first story proved so popular that it was followed by others and Chimmie Fadden soon became a regular feature of The Sun. Mr. Townsend later published the series in book form, selling more than 200,000 copies. The material for most of the stories was gathered by their author while he sat at one of the waterfront slips, pretending to read a newspaper, but in reality listening to the jargon of the youngsters who gathered there. The fame of the 'des, dose and dem' tales followed Mr. Townsend into private life, and proved a minor form of embarrassment when he entered political life as a candidate for Congress in New Jersey." In a Times review of the Chimmie Fadden stories on 23 June 1895, pg. 27, col. 2, the paper stated that "Mr. Townsend's humor belongs to this particular epoch, the early nineties of the nineteenth century. The Bowery slang he reproduces with graphic art was unknown ten years ago and will be archaic ten years hence. James Fadden of lower New York is a lad of the present hour." Does so-called "Brooklynese" come from Mose or Chimmie? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- MARTINI--a minor antedate OED cites "martini" in a 28 Nov. 1894 ad in Puck. The same ad appears on pg. 340, 23 Nov. 1893 in Leslie's Weekly. Anybody have earlier? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 15:22:00 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: SYRACUSE / Yuston, Texas All this talk about Syracuse has reminded me of the surprise I got when I was back in the US driving around Texas a few years ago. I kept hearing people on the radio talk about Yuston, Texas and couldn't figure out where that was. (Houston) As a linguist, it made good enough sense (humor, etc.), but as a Southerner, it came as a shock. Is this something new that I had never heard because I've been away from the US too long? Is this something that had always been there and I had never heard because I was from a different part of the South? (Tennessee) Is this something that has already been discussed on ADS-L that I'm gonna get yelled at for not having read? Danny Long ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 06:26:14 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: 10.0258 NEH Deadlines Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 10, No. 258. Center for Electronic Texts in the Humanities (Princeton/Rutgers) Information at http://www.princeton.edu/~mccarty/humanist/ [1] From: jserventi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us Subject: PLEASE POST: NEH DEADLINES Please cross-post REMINDER NEH Education Development and Demonstration Program October 1, 1996 Deadlines The National Endowment for the Humanities supports school teachers and college faculty in the United States who wish to strengthen the teaching and learning of history, literature, foreign languages and cultures, and other areas of the humanities. The deadline for applications is October 1, 1996 and funding is available for up to $250,000 total for three years. TEACHING WITH TECHNOLOGY is a special NEH initiative to support projects that use today's rapidly evolving information technologies to improve teaching and learning in the humanities. Proposals may be submitted for all categories and deadlines. The Education Development and Demonstration Program offers the following programs: --Materials Development Projects Develop educational materials for national dissemination. --Curricular Development and Demonstration Projects Design a humanities study project for teachers or college faculty. Join with scholars from nearby colleges, universities, museums, and other cultural organizations to promote an ongoing academic partnership. Prepare model courses or curricula. --Dissemination and Diffusion Projects Share information on exemplary projects in humanities education through national conferences, workshops, and networks. For more information about these grant opportunities, or if you have ideas about developing a project, please write or call: Education Development and Demonstration Division of Research and Education Programs National Endowment for the Humanities, Room 318 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20506 Phone: 202/606-8380 FAX: 202/606-8394 e-mail: education[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us TDD (for hearing impaired only) 202/606-8282 Guidelines and application forms may be retrieved from the NEH World Wide Web site: http://www.neh.fed.us (under *EDD Guidelines*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:12:34 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: apizza When I first came up to Western Mass. in 1959 or so, I remember seeing apizza signs in northern Connecticut--I recall one place in Simsbury on route 10 that we used to pass on our way south to visit relatives. I'm pretty sure I saw it at other places back then, but I haven't seen the spelling for several years now. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 07:04:18 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: FUHGEDDABOUTIT?: the Bowery Boy and "Brooklynese" Let us not forget Stephen Crane in this matter. Crane's character diction in Maggie is Bowery dialect--and according to William Dean Howells, the best representation of it. Maggie appears first in 1893 and republished in its expurgated form in 1895. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan R. Slotkin Professor of English Box 5053 Tennessee Technological University Cookeville, TN 38505 Phone: 615-372-3262 FAX: 615-372-6142 e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 08:17:00 -0500 From: Scott Ann M ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USL.EDU Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel No fair Allen. What is we DON'T have the Far Side page-a-day calendar? Tell us about it. Ann Martin Scott ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:56:39 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "Houston" A lot of Americans have merged #hy into #y, following the same path as #hw - #w. In the 70s I did my graduate work (with students from all over) at Berkeley, where there is a long tradition of work with American Indian languages, and the homophony for many of "human languages" with "Yuman languages" was a standing joke. Taking Houston from another angle, I grew up in NYC, where one way to tell the locals from the out-of-towners is that only the latter speak of /haw'st[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ Street ("house"-ton) as /hyuw'st[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ Street. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 09:42:09 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Southern accent - Dale writes: I neglected to mention that I was referring to Princeton freshmen who were fresh from the South-- in their first week here, so adaptation to the college environment played no role. These are people who grew up in the South and went to school there. Perhaps some Southerners could comment on the situation in their communities- especially high schools. Aren't there some students/ adults who sound northern? Is it occurring more often in private schools? In urban areas? I taught in the South in the 1980s (for ten years). I didn't really start paying attention to features of Southern English other than the stereotypical drawl until I read a couple of articles in the SECOL Review ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] 1984) that referred to the pronunciation of words such as "ring" and "business" (and one case in which a UGA's Vice President said "libary" for "library"). I started using some of these examples in class and even asked undergraduate students (after persuading them that Southern English was as good as any other variety, especially in the South itself) to transcribe their most familiar pronunciations of such words and added some like "hand", "fire", "floor", and "clothes". I was struck by the extent of variation. (Surely, after noticing this in the classroom, I perceived more variation outside the classroom as I interacted with nonacademics.) It all seemed random to me. Impressionistically I could not establish, for instance, whether the person that lowered the vowel of "ring" would diphthongize that of "hand", vice versa, etc. I left the South with a stronger sense of inter-individual variation (even if only in small ways), and more convinced that a speech community and the dialect associated with it are useful constructs to which there are plenty of exceptions, just like social and psychological stereotypes for that matter. So, Dale, I am not so surprised by your observation. On the other hand, Southerners who come to study at Princeton and Yale may not be typical Southerners in their speech either. They may fall in the category of exceptions to these dialect stereotypes that make our study more manageable, I would think--which justifies your query. They may also have been motivated from the start not to want to sound Southern as they moved out of the South. Still, their speech may also indicate that Southern English is not as universally spoken by Southerners as our typical linguistic stereotypes may lead us to believe. Sorry I misunderstood you. Sali. ******************************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 ******************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 14:59:10 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: tyu-tu I was shocked to hear myself tell my students today that I'd see them /tuzde/. I'm sure they wondered why I stopped talking mid-sentence with a quizzical smile on my face. Language change marches on... ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:48:59 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel "Tell us about it." Courtroom; monkey in witness box, weasel looking on from defense table; attorney says: "Well, sir, my client says he wasn't having any fun, and that you just kept chasing him and chasing him around this little bush - and that's when he decided to pop you one." The Far Side page-a-day calendar 9/12/96 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:56:31 -0400 From: "Pearsons, Enid" epearsons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM Subject: Re: Popik on pizza And Bridgeport, which isn't all that far from New Haven. ah-BEETS was what I heard as a child in the late 1940s and early 1950s. ))))))))) Previous Notes Mail (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((( To: ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] uga.cc.uga.edu (Multiple recipients of list ADS-L) [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] SMTP cc: (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse) From: LHORN [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU (Larry Horn) [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] SMTP Date: 09/12/96 04:00 PM Subject: Popik on pizza That was a nice history. It may be of interest to know that in these parts, New Havenites learn at their grandparents' knee that American-style pizza was (re)invented by Frank Pepe, who adapted the appetizer-type pizze of his native Naples to the American palate here on Wooster Street, New Haven. Since the local variant here is traditionally dubbed "apizza" (pronounced [aBI:TS]), a search may not have turned up prior cites, a New Haven-born linguist friend points out. On the other hand, the descriptions in Barry Popik's history don't sound THAT different from the New Haven-style pizza, and his earlier cites certainly predate the opening of Pepe's Apizza. Can anyone disconfirm my assumption that 'apizza' (ah-BEETS) is restricted to the New Haven area? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 16:58:31 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: pop goes the weasel Courtroom; monkey in witness box, weasel looking on from defense table; attorney says: "Well, sir, my client says he wasn't having any fun, and that you just kept chasing him and chasing him around this little bush - and that's when he decided to pop you one." The Far Side page-a-day calendar 9/12/96 aha! so this proves that i'm not totally weird in claiming that the first line is "all around the mulberry bush"! vindicated! lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Sep 1996 21:49:04 -0400 From: "Alfred F. Rosa" arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: apizza I am getting on to this apizza thread late but here's what I remember from growing up in Naugatuck, CT. Growing up in a "Little Italy" in Naugatuck, CT, (5 miles south of Waterbury and 18 miles north of New Haven) apizza what was we called it and that's what the signage read on pizzerias. It was only after I left to go to college (UConn, Storrs)that I encountered pizza. It has always been my assumption that apizza was a shortened form of La pizza which I also heard and saw. I'm not sure of the La Pizza usage, though, in Italy where I lived for a year. I'll ask my friend who owns a pizzeria and is originally from Bari, Italy, if La Pizza is used there. I also remember the term as used in New Haven in the 50's and afterward. A-Beets was the pronunciation. ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^ Professor Alfred Rosa || Department of English || P.O. Box 54030 || University of Vermont || "The limits of my language Burlington, VT 05405-0114 || mean the limits of my Telephone: 802-656-4139 || world." Fax: 802-656-3055 || e-mail: arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu || --Ludwig Wittgenstein Prodigy: kgdx32a || AOL: Sassari || ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Sep 1996 to 13 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 14 messages totalling 374 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Beware the flood.... (5) 2. Y'all (was Re[3]: Greasy et al.) (2) 3. -own/-ewn past participles (2) 4. Questions from inside: Southern accents 5. implications and inferences (2) 6. offload 7. Saffire column ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:00:29 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Beware the flood.... In tomorrow's New York Times Magazine, William Safire mentions our humble mailing list, and gives the address, where people can send queries" (there's a typo in the address, for what it's worth). Let us hope that this will not result in a flood of people asking about the words that end in -gry or some such. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:59:33 +0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERPORT.NET Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: In tomorrow's New York Times Magazine, William Safire mentions our humble mailing list, and gives the address, where people can send queries" (there's a typo in the address, for what it's worth). Under the circumstances, that typo may be worth a great deal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:34:33 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... where people can send queries" (there's a typo in the address, for what it's worth). What's the typo? Is it one that will be easily caught by people used to net life? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 09:37:20 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Y'all (was Re[3]: Greasy et al.) I saved this posting a couple of days ago because it struck me as an excellent example of what some yankees might deem an example of singular y'all, which of course it isn't. Another BTW, this one for Ron: is your house at Topsail Beach still standing? I've been thinking about y'all. Ellen --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 10:37:41 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... where people can send queries" (there's a typo in the address, for what it's worth). What's the typo? Is it one that will be easily caught by people used to net life? Probably. He gives the "send queries" address as: adsl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu (i.e. he leaves out the "-") However, he gives the listserv address correctly, but without giving instructions on how to subscribe. JTS ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 16:34:46 BST From: David Britain dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK Subject: -own/-ewn past participles In New Zealand and Australian English, a change is underway in a closed set of past participles ending -own/-ewn (blown, flown, shown, mown, sown, sewn, grown, strewn, known, thrown, hewn). The change involves the insertion of schwa before the final /n/, so, where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa,: /flo:n/ becomes /flo:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ or /flow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ /gro:n/ becomes /gro:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n - grow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ etc. /stru:n/ becomes /stru:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ /hju:n/ becomes /hju:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ This change is NOT taking place in words such as groan, moan, moon, tune or own. Is this common anywhere in North America? Look forward to hearing from you Dave Britain ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dr David J Britain Department of Language and Linguistics University of Essex Wivenhoe Park COLCHESTER Essex Great Britain CO4 3SQ dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]essex.ac.uk Telephone: +44 1206 872101 Fax: +44 1206 872085 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:33:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: Re: Questions from inside: Southern accents Dear Mr. Metcalf: As a transplanted Southerner, I have some comments to add to your discussion on the possible decline of the Southern accent. First, my mother is a native Californian, and my father is a fifth-generation Louisianian. Although my father does not pronounce the letter "r" distinctly, my mother does. Growing up in Southwestern Louisiana, but emulating my mother, probably because I spent more time with her, I pronounce my r's. I've often reflected that my accent sounds closer to a Texan or upland Southern accent. I've been told that I sound as though I was raised in the mountains of the Carolinas. Second, I am a graduate of Louisiana State University, a good, middle-class institution. Nevertheless, I have many friends who are Southerners and went to private colleges such as Tulane, Duke, and Georgetown. I've noticed that my upper-class friends, whose parents often have the strongest of Southern and Gulf Coast accents, often sound like suburban Northerners. I find this a curious phenomenon, but I know that it exists. The loss of accent, I believe, is stronger in the upper classes of Southerners. At 05:56 PM 9/10/96 -0400, you wrote: An inmate at Alabama State Prison sends a note with these questions: "I have a question concerning dialects in the U.S. In the last few years I've noticed a change in the speech of students in suburban schools. There is not a 'Southern' accent anymore at these schools. It sounds as if it were homogenized with other dialects around the country. Do you have any information on this phenomenon? "Another question I would like to ask. What happened to the old Aristocrat Southern accent? Thank you for your time." These seem reasonable questions to raise on ADS-L. If anyone has good answers, I'll send them on to the questioner. - Allan Metcalf Elizabeth Gibbens Research Assistant Mr. William Safire, The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 15:37:39 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: -own/-ewn past participles At 04:34 PM 9/14/96 BST, you wrote: In New Zealand and Australian English, a change is underway in a closed set of past participles ending -own/-ewn (blown, flown, shown, mown, sown, sewn, grown, strewn, known, thrown, hewn). The change involves the insertion of schwa before the final /n/, so, where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa,: /flo:n/ becomes /flo:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ or /flow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ /gro:n/ becomes /gro:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n - grow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ etc. /stru:n/ becomes /stru:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ /hju:n/ becomes /hju:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ This change is NOT taking place in words such as groan, moan, moon, tune or own. Is this common anywhere in North America? This is fairly common in the area of Wisconsin I lived in, and I understood it to spread into Minnesota and who knows where else. That area has a lot of German and Scandinavian influence, by the way. Another interesting one is "store-boughten" clothes. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:09:56 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: In tomorrow's New York Times Magazine, William Safire mentions our humble mailing list, and gives the address, snip Let us hope that this will not result in a flood of people asking about the words that end in -gry or some such. It may be too late for that. This afternoon, my mother, who recently moved here from Texas, called to say that the Alto, TX newspaper (bonus points for all who know where Alto is; hint: think OST) had published a column asking for the "third -gry word." Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:38:20 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: implications and inferences It is perhaps Rick Blom, not I, who needs to go back and reread his original postings concerning the putative origins of "barefoot and pregnant" in the South. As I recall, Rick originally said (a). he believed the phrase originated in the South (later correcting this to Appalachia), (b). he was "certain" that the phrase originated among the "lower" classes, and (c). the phrase was an example of horrible sexism. Is it not conversationally legitimate to infer from (a)-(c) that the speaker believes/implies that Southern culture and working-class culture is more sexist than others? In the absence of a stated reason for his belief and his "certainty," the implication seems clear enough. I admit that I no longer actdually have hils earliest messages--I guess I didn't save them. Maybe (c) was not a part of Rick's message but merely arose as a response to Rick's message. If so, I owe him a partial apology. But Rick now tells us that he had other reasons for his belief and his "certainty"--he associates the phrase with his southern-based family. At the very least, it seems clear that Rick is guilty of poor writing--conveying unwanted implications (and he doesn't disclaim the lower-class part of it). He is also guilty of some very bad logic. I mean, come on, I first heard the phrase "barefoot and pregnant" from MY Iowa-born mother. Should I therefore conclude that the phrase originated in Iowa? (Should I make the same conclusion about the word CORN?) No, I'm not being ironic and I'm not being "hysterical"--I'm just not happy when the South (or New York, or the Midwest, or Utah, or any region of the country) is by implication (whether strong or weak) indicated as the source of cultural malaise. Rick may not have intended such an inference (or may not think that he intended such an inference), but the implication is clear enough, nonetheless. And I'm not happy, either, with the idea that the "lower" classes are the most likely source of culturally undesirable phenomena. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 19:02:18 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: implications and inferences --- On Sat, 14 Sep 1996 18:38:20 -0400 Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: Should I therefore conclude that the phrase originated in Iowa? (Should I make the same conclusion about the word CORN?) You choose an unfortunate example here, Ron, because the word "corn" actually did originate in Iowa. It is derivitive from the Cornpone Indians who grew field corn and passed it on to the early settlers. (They also grew sweet corn, but kept that to themselves for several generations without sharing the secret for fear that the settlers would stop corrupting their daughters and go on an orgy of "clambakes", a word they did not quite understand but feared with the overwhelming terror of the unknown.) So while sodders were growing what they called "corn", Easterners were growing "maize". My own grandmother, who was part Fokawai, insisted until her dying day that "corn" was uniquely a product of the tribes that lived in the Catskill Mountain area and had nothing to do with anything remotely edible (nor, according to her, did anythig they cooked or named). It was only with the establishment of the railroads that the word "corn" spread east, where it eventually supplanted the more civilized word "maize". ------------------------------------- Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 20:54:38 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: offload Funny! My perception is just the opposite. I know I have heard "offload" quite a bit, without remarking on it as new, though I suppose it is. The meaning was always the same as "unload" in its literal sense. (Sorry, I can't supply any specific citations.) But I have known "unload" in the meaning "palm off on someone who out of politeness or naivete will be unable to resist" for a long time. I've heard 'offload' on TV news and elsewhere for some time, particularly in situations like the beer truck having been disabled by an accident. The context seems to refer to "moving the load from one vehicle to another." I think I've also heard it to refer to transferring the load to a dock or warehouse for later removal to its ultimate destination. When the goods get to the final destination, they are unloaded. If they had unloaded the beer truck, the cases would be sitting beside the road. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 21:56:35 -0500 From: Ed Deluzain bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.INTEROZ.COM Subject: Re: Y'all (was Re[3]: Greasy et al.) Doesn't context matter with this, though, Natalie? I *always* use y'all as a plural form, but I sometimes say things like, "How have y'all been," meaning "How have you and the other members of your family been?" I haven't followed this thread very closely, but if Ellen was referring to the family that owns the house at Topsail Beach, by my grammar she's correct. My credentials as a user of "y'all" are New Orleans native, college in Mobile, graduate school in Tallahassee, and residence in Panama City. Ed At 09:37 AM 9/14/96 -0500, you wrote: I saved this posting a couple of days ago because it struck me as an excellent example of what some yankees might deem an example of singular y'all, which of course it isn't. Another BTW, this one for Ron: is your house at Topsail Beach still standing? I've been thinking about y'all. Ellen --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Sep 1996 23:11:29 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Saffire column Perhaps Ms. Gibbens would be kind enough to post the column to the list for those of us who don't get the Sunday Times until Wednesday. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Sep 1996 to 14 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 12 messages totalling 408 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Y'all (was Re[3]: Greasy et al.) 2. Puerto ("Poo-air-to") Rico or Porto Rico? 3. origin of the WORD "corn" (3) 4. apizza 5. implications and inferences (2) 6. WHISTLIN' DIXIE: from Whistling Dick! (2) 7. Corn in the USA (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 06:37:15 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Y'all (was Re[3]: Greasy et al.) Doesn't context matter with this, though, Natalie? I *always* use y'all as a plural form, but I sometimes say things like, "How have y'all been," meaning "How have you and the other members of your family been?" I haven't That is precisely my point. Sometimes speakers of non-y'all dialects don't seem to understand associative y'all. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 10:56:26 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Puerto ("Poo-air-to") Rico or Porto Rico? Sadly, Puerto Rico has been devasted by Hurrican Hortense. About 100 years ago, after the Spanish-American War of 1898, there was a dispute over the spelling and pronunciation of the island's name. This large, wonderful article in my files comes from the Washington Post, 28 July 1899, pg. 7, col. 3. I'll quote it only in part: DISPUTING OVER NAME Scientists in Conflict Over Spelling Porto Rico. OLD MAPS HAVE BEEN CONSULTED Board of Geographic Names Continues to Adhere ot Its Former Decision that the Recently Acquired Island is Puerto Rico--Their Opponents Claim to Have President McKinley on Their Side, Besides Numerous Other Advantages. ....The Puerto Ricans were the first in the field and they nearly had the fight won, when the others contested their right to name the new baby. The former, as has been stated above, consisted mainly of the United States Board on Geographic Names. The body is composed of men eminent in the arts of military and naval warfare, and has representatives from the different scientific bureaus. They are gentlemen of culture and refinement, and they are versed in all that would go to render them competent to name a continent, a hemisphere, not to mention a little island hardly as large as an ordinary ink blot on the globe. They based their position on the fact that the aforementioned insular nonentity had been called Puerto Rico by the Spaniards, when they had finally settled down to business and quit fooling with the other barbarous epithets applied to it. They further insist that Porto Rico had a sound suspiciously Portuguese, and that the true Castillian is the proper thing. Properly translated, they argued, Puerto Rico meant "rich port," although they forget to specify whether they meant the wine of that name or the destination of storm-driven barks. Furthermore they issued the edict that the English usage for foreign names was in exceedingly bad taste. Furthermore they insisted that the natives of the island should be consulted. They averred that these people were quite fond of calling themselves "Poo-air-to" Ricans. ...The Porto Ricans...asked them why they did not call Japan Niphon, as the Japs style their country, or Austria Oesterreich-Unga, or Belgium Belgique, or Sweden Sverig, or Morocco Magribel Aksa. In addition to these things the Porto Ricans assert that the natives themselves find that their brand of nomenclature rolls more trippingly off the tongue. They further state that since the American occupation of the island the people there are using the name Porto Rico on stationery and bill heads. They advance the argument that usage is what makes names, and no decree of potentates can change the vernacular of the common people. ...The name Puerto Rico is practically impossible to the English tongue and therefore we should employ some name that is phonetically more congenial to our linguistic capabilities. Reference is made to the pronunciation employed some years ago by such bold buccaneers as Drake and Hawkins, who, though they could destroy a Spanish armanda (sic), could not pronounce Puerto Rico. ...A resume of the Porto Rican side of the question is as follows: First, The President has spelled it that way, ergo it is right. Second, The official designation since the American occupation has been the "Military Department of Porto Rico," whatever it may have been under Spanish domination, ergo it is right. Third, The treaty of peace last year explicitely (sic) spells the name Porto Rico, ergo it is right. Fourth, The post-offices are officially in the island of Porto Rico, ergo it is right. Fifth, For three hundred years English, German, French, and Dutch cartographers have spelled it that way, ergo it is right. Sixth, Government departments have used the word Porto Rico in their government publications, ergo it is right. Seventh, Inasmuch as the word Puerto, being practically unpronouncable (sic) in English, and the form Porto being thoroughly established through centuries of usage, in accordance with certain well-known laws of linguistic evolution, which cannot be herein fully set forth, it will be impossible to supplant the latter by the former, ergo it is right. Meanwhile, what are the poor islanders going to do? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:49:07 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: origin of the WORD "corn" Duane Campbell writes: . . . Ron, the word "corn" actually did originate in Iowa. It is derivitive from the Cornpone Indians . . . The word CORN did NOT originate in Iowa. The word CORN is an English word of Indo-European origin (cf. GRAIN). The fact that Native Americans in Iowa may or may not have been the first to domesticate Zea mays is irrelevant to the origin of the WORD. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 13:02:54 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: origin of the WORD "corn" --- On Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:49:07 -0400 Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: . . . Ron, the word "corn" actually did originate in Iowa. It is derivitive from the Cornpone Indians . . . The word CORN did NOT originate in Iowa. The word CORN is an English word of Indo-European origin I am rendered speechless by the power of your erudite rebuttal. The only feeble defense I can offer is that I was merely passing on what my grandmother had told me. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 14:52:33 -0400 From: rich bzwax[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIAC.NET Subject: Re: origin of the WORD "corn" I am rendered speechless by the power of your erudite rebuttal. The only feeble defense I can offer is that I was merely passing on what my grandmother had told me. duane, where i come from, your explaination of the word corn is called merely passing on what your grandmother had fed you. /r ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:09:03 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: apizza As Alfred Rosa and someone else noted, there's also the form /labits/ from "la pizza" with intervocalic voicing of initial /p/ and elision of the final vowel. This form is familiar in S Philly as well. It's prpobably S Italian influence. Chris Cieri at Penn would know all about it, but that's all I can recall just now, except that I know of no reason to think it came from New England rather than directlky from S. Italy. --peter patrick ppatrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:28:43 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: implications and inferences My OED has an Old English citation of "corn" from King Aelfred in 888 AD. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Barry Popik can find an earlier one, but meanwhile that doesn't jibe very well with Duane's grandmother, who doubtless had other virtues and strengths than etymology... Also, maize (Zea mays) was certainly known on the eastern coast as well, long before Europeans penetrated to Iowa. Does anyone know if the N. American coast was the first meeting of "corn" and the thing it names? or was maize known earlier in souther parts of the Americas? --peter patrick ppatrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:29:38 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: WHISTLIN' DIXIE: from Whistling Dick! Last Friday's New York Times, 13 September 1996, pg. 1, cols 4-5, in a feature by Richard L. Berke called "The Race For President-The South" ["running" for President, perhaps?] that was titled: "If Clinton Sees Votes in South, He's Not Just Whistling Dixie." Absolutely no one knows diddly about "Whistling Dixie," and it will be revealed here for the first time. One obvious place to consult would be WHISTLIN' DIXIE--A DICTIONARY OF SOUTHERN EXPRESSIONS by Robert Hendrickson (1993), billed as "a verbal romp through the land o'cotton." This is surely the place to look. Under "whistlin' Dixie," it states "See YOU AIN'T JUST WHISTLIN' DIXIE." [Note to future authors--don't continue your most important entry!!] Under "you ain't just whistlin' Dixie" [thanks for the extra work!] it states "You're not just talking or making small talk, you're saying something important, worthwhile. DIXIE refers to the popular song." Unlike other entries, for this entry--the book's title!--there is not a single reference given! In 1994, UMI dissertation services printed "DIXIE": THE CULTURAL HISTORY OF A SONG AND PLACE by Cheryl Thurber, who received a Ph.D. from the University of Mississippi in 1993. This is the fullest "Dixie" treatment ever, but again, no "whistlin' Dixie." In the bibliography on "archive and manuscript collections," its the author missed the fabulous Filson Collection in Louisville, KY and the author never even visited New York City (where Dan Emmett's "Dixie" was first sung), but that's a story for a later date. As usual--by accident--I came across "America's Song Composers, Part VI-Septimus Winner" by George Birdseye in Potter's American Monthly, vol. XII, no. 90, June 1879, pp. 434-435, which tell us about Whistlin' Dick: There was then in Philadelphia an original character commonly called "Whistling Dick," a colored individual, Richard Milburn by name, well known through all the streets of the city. His visible, or rather audible, means of support was whistling, an accomplishment in which he excelled, really making some beautiful music, while he strummed an individual accompaniment on a guitar. He was principally famous for his imitations of the mocking-bird, and this fact first suggested to Mr. Winner the happy thought of perfecting a ballad of that nature. This he accomplished, and the ever-popular "Listen to the Mocking-bird" was the result. It was written to suit the small compass of Whistling Dick's voice, to whom he taught it, and who did very much towards starting it on its way to success. On this account Mr. Winner placed Mr. Milburn's name upon the first editions, which pleased that colored gentleman hugely. Afterwards brilliant "Variations" were written on the song by Edward Hoffman, a celebrated pianist of New York. It was a very showy piece for learners on the pianoforte, not very difficult, and greatly increased the sale and popularity of the original song, so that it soon became the rage, and travelled over the ocean to delight our English cousins. It is not a far leap from "Whistling Dick" to "Whistlin' Dixie." It should be remembered that in the Philadelphia of that day, there was a popular minstrel named E. F. Dixey, who sang a "Dixie" called "Dixey." Again, I must leave that for another day, but "Whistlin' Dixie" is done. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:50:46 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: implications and inferences My OED has an Old English citation of "corn" from King Aelfred in 888 AD. Now, I wouldn't be surprised if Barry Popik can find an earlier one, but meanwhile that doesn't jibe very well with Duane's grandmother, who doubtless had other virtues and strengths than etymology... Also, maize (Zea mays) was certainly known on the eastern coast as well, long before Europeans penetrated to Iowa. Does anyone know if the N. American coast was the first meeting of "corn" and the thing it names? or was maize known earlier in souther parts of the Americas? i don't know the geography of "corn", but just wanted to point out that the word is not dead in british english--it just means grain generically (or as the concise oxford says, usu. the chief grain of a region). the meaning was narrowed in american english, but you can see its older meaning in the word "barleycorn". bill bryson, in _made in america_ relates the story of the british government requesting so many tons of corn during (after?) WWII from the u.s. of course, the americans sent maize, but what the british were wanting was wheat. anyone else remember those mazola ads in the 70s where the actress in a leather dress says, with great seriousness, "you call it corn, but we call it maize"? not if you were a non-spanish speaking north american, honey. (the word seems to have carib origins, if my dictionaries are to be trusted.) incidentally, in south african english "mielies" (from afrikaans) is more common than "maize" (in my experience). like "corn", "mielies" evolved from being a more general word for grain to a specific word for maize. considering that it's the staple here, that's not surprising--but i don't know if the maize-specific meaning goes back to european dutch or whether it's a south african invention. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:06:12 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Corn in the USA Lynne made my point, I think. The OED notes that in the USA the word "corn" [OE corn; ME korne, korn; Scottish corn, corne, korne, cornne, coirn] refers in a restricted sense to "Indian corn" or "maize". This isn't so elsewhere, and a *very brief* glance at the relevant pages (936-37), suggests that it happened here during the colonial era. (Not surprisingly, since the term very often seems to refer to the grain that the local folks grow.) I also recall that maize is indigenous to the Americas, tho someone who's really interested might want to check the chapter on the domestication of plants in an introductory archeology text. Maggie =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Maggie Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 16:18:15 -0600 From: Jason Krantz jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHADOW.SJCSF.EDU Subject: Re: WHISTLIN' DIXIE: from Whistling Dick! At 04:29 PM 9/15/96 -0400, you wrote: Last Friday's New York Times, 13 September 1996, pg. 1, cols 4-5, in a feature by Richard L. Berke called "The Race For President-The South" ["running" for President, perhaps?] that was titled: "If Clinton Sees Votes in South, He's Not Just Whistling Dixie." Absolutely no one knows diddly about "Whistling Dixie," and it will be revealed here for the first time. [snip] As usual--by accident--I came across "America's Song Composers, Part VI-Septimus Winner" by George Birdseye in Potter's American Monthly, vol. XII, no. 90, June 1879, pp. 434-435, which tell us about Whistlin' Dick: [snip] There was then in Philadelphia an original character commonly called "Whistling Dick," a colored individual, Richard Milburn by name, well known through all the streets of the city. His visible, or rather audible, means of support was whistling, an accomplishment in which he excelled, really making some beautiful music, while he strummed an individual accompaniment on a guitar. He was principally famous for his imitations of the mocking-bird, and this fact first suggested to Mr. Winner the happy thought of perfecting a ballad of that nature. This he accomplished, and the ever-popular "Listen to the Mocking-bird" was the result. It was written to suit the small compass of Whistling Dick's voice, to whom he taught it, and who did very much towards starting it on its way to success. [snip] It is not a far leap from "Whistling Dick" to "Whistlin' Dixie." It should be remembered that in the Philadelphia of that day, there was a popular minstrel named E. F. Dixey, who sang a "Dixie" called "Dixey." Again, I must leave that for another day, but "Whistlin' Dixie" is done. To be honest, I don't see that the expression "Whistlin' Dixie" must have come from "Whistling Dick." It seems possible, but not probable. The connection to the south isn't all that strong. Maybe I've misunderstood, but when you say "'Whistlin' Dixie' is done," it sounds like you are certain that "Whistlin' Dixie" came from Whistling Dick, which is not at all clear from what you've presented. For your collective information, I have included a passage from The Straight Dope, a column written by Cecil Adams. For those unaware of the column, it suffices to say that it is not very academic and somewhat irreverent, but is generally accurate. Adams responds to questions sent in by readers. Note that both Adams and Popik refer to the Dixey of Philadelphia and Emmet's song. Q: Where did the name "Dixie" come from? And exactly what states comprise Dixie? -Leigh-Anne H., Dallas, TX A: Dixie is usually thought to include the states of the Confederacy, but where the term comes from nobody knows for sure. Here are the three leading theories: 1. Before the Civil War, the Citizens Bank of Louisiana, located in New Orleans, issued ten-dollar notes that bore the Creole/French word "dix," ten, on one side. These notes were known as "dixies" and the south came to be known as the "land of dixies." 2. The term comes from the Dixon in "Mason-Dixon Line," the famous pre-Revolutionary War surveyors' line that separated Maryland and Pennsylvania. 3. It comes from "Dixy's land," Dixy supposedly being a kindly slave owner on Manhattan Island, of all places. Dixy's regime was supposedly so enlightened that for slaves his plantation came to symbolize earthly paradise. Sounds ridiculous, but the story was widely told in the years just after the civil war. The trouble with all of these explanations is that there are no published citations of the word prior to to the appearance of Daniel Emmett's song "Dixie" in 1859. On etymologist notes that a minstrel named Dixey performed in Philadelphia in 1856, but that's not much help. For what it's worth, the editors of the _American Heritage Dictionary,_ normally reliable in these matters, come down four-square on the side of explanation #1, on the basis of what evidence I do not know. Then you get a few characters like the guy in the journal American Speech who speculates that it came from "dixi," Latin for "I have said [it]." This is allegedly emblematic of the take-no-guff attitude characteristic of the antebellum south. Forgive me if I decline to take sides. So says Adams. Take it for no more and no less than it's worth. Regards, Jason ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 18:20:14 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Corn in the USA I have come to the conclusion that the smiley face emoticon [:- - which I refuse to use] was invented to tip off academics that a joke was being made so that they could turn up the corners of their mouths appropriately. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 1996 to 15 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 19 messages totalling 468 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. origin of the WORD "corn" 2. Corn in the USA (3) 3. Beware the flood.... (4) 4. "NOT" again! "LIKE BUTTER!" 5. my grades are punk (7) 6. more monkey business 7. No subject given 8. your mail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 00:05:51 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: origin of the WORD "corn" The word CORN did NOT originate in Iowa. The word CORN is an English word of Indo-European origin I am rendered speechless by the power of your erudite rebuttal. The only feeble defense I can offer is that I was merely passing on what my grandmother had told me. Not so "erudite"--I merely passed on what is available (to grandmothers and grandsons) in any desktop dictionary. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 23:28:18 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Corn in the USA And one can see the effect of Grimm's Law in the Indo-European cognates 'corn' and 'grain'. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:01:31 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... Jesse T Sheidlower wrote: Let us hope that this will not result in a flood of people asking about the words that end in -gry or some such. It's not the thought of a possible flood of irrelevant and uninformed QUESTIONS that frightens me. It's that we'll have even more uninformed answers than we do now. Just in the past week or two we have been subjected to contributors informing us about their "theories" of the origin of "barefoot and pregnant" ("I had in mind, but did not say, that I thought it was southern Appalachain in origin. It certainly is associated with lower socioeconomic classes."), and of "corn" ("the word "corn" actually did originate in Iowa. It is derivitive from the Cornpone Indians who grew field corn and passed it on to the early settlers.") I wonder if medical research lists are clogged up with people sharing their "theories" about babies being brought by the stork, and it being possible for women to become pregnant from drinking after a man, etc.? Danny Long ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 01:48:43 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "NOT" again! "LIKE BUTTER!" "Like butter!" is featured in an Audi tv commercial I saw today. I haven't seen "--not!" for a while, but I have something important to add to the antiquity of both Saturday Night Live-inspired phrases. --NOT! This phrase was written up in American Speech three years ago. "Not!" came from "nit!" Theodore L. Hake's POLITICAL BUTTONS BOOK III 1789-1916 has two "NIT" phrases on Yellow Kid cartoon buttons from 1896 on pg. 154. An interesting explanation by Ted Sullivan is in the Sporting News, 1 Dec. 1900, pg. 5, col. 5: He had got on to what the "net" was, too. The interpreter said: "Signor Sullivan, you will get 40 par a-cent of ze net." So, readers, he was to give me 40 per cent of the net. As I looked out on the harbor and saw the management form of the Maine lying submerged in the water, I told the interpreter that America produced two great compilers of dictionaries, who occupied different spheres in life. One was Noah Webster, who defined in pure English the word "net." The other was "Chick" Connors, of the Bowery, N.Y., who compiled the slang dictionary of America and defined the word "nit," but under the conditions I would be more afraid of Mr. Connors' word "nit," if I came to Cuba, than I would of Mr. Webster's "net." I bid them a farewell and to my relief I left them and their atmosphere of garlic LIKE BUTTER! An interesting article that is a treasure trove of slang is in the Boston Herald, 22 March 1908, part II, pg. 6, col. 7: PARIS OUTDOES AMERICAN SLANG No Phase of Life Too Sacred for Flippant Words Not in Dictionary SCORE OF REMARKS TO INDICATE DEATH ....lobster...a room to let...he has a spider on his ceiling...he loses the map...Thousand bombs!...Name of a dog!...[etc.] The slang expression for one's wife is "ma legitime," a phrase which is rich in suggestion. The nickname for a comedian is delicious. It is "a have you seen me?" By the way, if one wants to say a thing is delicious one says: "It's butter." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------- I thought "Whistling Dick," given his tremendous popularity as the world's most famous whistler, flows pretty easily into "Whistlin' Dixie," but you can disagree. CECIL ADAMS? Did you see his archive on AOL and check out "the Big Apple"? AAAAA! If only I could grind him into "hot dogs!" . ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 05:50:21 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Corn in the USA At 11:28 PM 9/15/96 +1608, you wrote: And one can see the effect of Grimm's Law in the Indo-European cognates 'corn' and 'grain'. And a might grim law in the way that so many correspondents fell for this troll. David Johns Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:00:51 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Corn in the USA At 11:28 PM 9/15/96 +1608, you wrote: And one can see the effect of Grimm's Law in the Indo-European cognates 'corn' and 'grain'. hearing about grimm's law reminds me that roger lass has recently published a paper in which (and he claims he's the first on this) he shows that a certain 4-letter word beginning with f that censors love to hate is related via grimm's law to the root of _pugnacious_. (though i've heard many people trace the semantic history of the word to striking, i have never seen anyone trace it all the way back to indo-european, as lass tries to.) the paper's in _diachronica_, if you're dirty-minded enough to want to check it out. i haven't read it, but have heard the cocktail party version, which was a lot of fun. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 08:34:27 -0700 From: Daniel Kies Kies[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WI.NET Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... Daniel Long wrote: It's not the thought of a possible flood of irrelevant and uninformed QUESTIONS that frightens me. It's that we'll have even more uninformed answers than we do now. ... I wonder if medical research lists are clogged up with people sharing their "theories" about babies being brought by the stork, and it being possible for women to become pregnant from drinking after a man, etc.? Danny Long Danny Long is exactly right. I too am amazed by some of the postings to the list. However, since many of us are educators, and since we all care about language, shouldn't we think of this "flood" as an opportunity to create a forum in which we can distribute good information about language to the cyber-public? Just a thought. Dan -- Daniel Kies Department of English College of DuPage 425 22nd Street Glen Ellyn, IL 60137-6599 USA E-mail: kies[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wi.net OR kiesdan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cdnet.cod.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:59:19 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: my grades are punk I just read my grandmother's diary from c.1920 when she was at Cornell. She wrote "My grades are punk." I asked my mother and father who were at Cornell in the early 40s about it and they told me they thought everyone knew it meant "very bad grades." I never heard it. Does anyone know how widespread it was and when it died out? Dale Coye The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:27:34 -0500 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: my grades are punk I've heard "punk" used that way to describe someone who isn't feeling well. Becky Howard Colgate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:46:21 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... Danny Long is exactly right. I too am amazed by some of the postings to the list. However, since many of us are educators, and since we all care about language, shouldn't we think of this "flood" as an opportunity to create a forum in which we can distribute good information about language to the cyber-public? There already is a forum for this: the Usenet newsgroup alt.usage.english, which gets a very high volume of postings (100-200 per day) on assorted questions of English. Though there are a number of knowledgable people who respond to these postings (some of whom are also members of ADS-L), the overall quality is rather low. I have always assumed that the purpose of ADS-L was to allow professional or otherwise serious scholars of English an opportunity to communicate. Its value for this purpose would be greatly reduced if it became an public arena for the posting of any sort of language question. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:13:21 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: more monkey business hey y'all-- thanks again for all the help on "pop goes the weasel" the other week. the struggle continues. the radio show on which i discussed it was aired yesterday, and i've just received a call from a listener (he called around my university looking for "the american lady" in order to get me. can't believe he actually succeeded), telling me that "monkey" in the song means `pawnbroker' in a brit slang. so, the monkey chasing the weasel is the pawnbroker trying to get his goods. this doesn't explain why the monkey is on the table in the verse that goes "ev'ry night when i come home, the monkey's on the table/i take a stick and knock him off/pop goes the weasel." what do we think? is this the real monkey or just a tale? (the pun works better in speech, but i can hear the groans already.) as i said, i've checked several slang sources, but this was not among the meanings i found. but who could compile a complete slang dictionary? lynne ------------------------------------------------------------------ M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:21:47 -0400 From: "Edwin H. Rutkowski" ehrutko[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGHAMTON.EDU Subject: Re: my grades are punk On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Dale F.Coye wrote: I just read my grandmother's diary from c.1920 when she was at Cornell. She wrote "My grades are punk." I asked my mother and father who were at Cornell in the early 40s about it and they told me they thought everyone knew it meant "very bad grades." I never heard it. Does anyone know how widespread it was and when it died out? Dale Coye The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching Princeton, NJ Coming into my teens in the 1930s, I can testify to "I'm feeling punk today" as in very, very wide currency, with the same meaning as in Coye's inquiry. Webster's New World Dictionary (3rd College Edition) still lists it as Slang Americanism. Edwin H. Rutkowski ehrutko[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]binghamton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 10:38:43 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: my grades are punk I just read my grandmother's diary from c.1920 when she was at Cornell. She wrote "My grades are punk." I asked my mother and father who were at Cornell in the early 40s about it and they told me they thought everyone knew it meant "very bad grades." I never heard it. Does anyone know how widespread it was and when it died out? The broad sense of _punk_ adj. 'bad; "lousy"' has not died out. Our earliest evidence in HDAS is from 1896 (George Ade) and our most recent is 1983, although I haven't checked the recent files. Most of these examples are predicative. Only two refer to grades, but I don't think it's a separate sense, just a specific application of this 'bad' sense. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 09:20:35 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: my grades are punk My grandmother (b. 1900, grew up in Iowa, moved to Pacific Northwest in 1918) used "punk" primarily in the sense of not feeling well, but also less frequently as a synonym of "bad" or "lousy." I think she was the only person I ever heard use it with those meanings. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University wrote: I've heard "punk" used that way to describe someone who isn't feeling well. Becky Howard Colgate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:26:17 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: my grades are punk At 09:59 AM 9/16/96 -0400, Dale Coye wrote: I just read my grandmother's diary from c.1920 when she was at Cornell. She wrote "My grades are punk." I asked my mother and father who were at Cornell in the early 40s about it and they told me they thought everyone knew it meant "very bad grades." I never heard it. Does anyone know how widespread it was and when it died out? My family has a letter written by my grandmother (why is it only grandmothers?) in about 1913. She was living in a boarding house for young women in Chicago and working at Comiskey Park as a secretary. In the letter she described three young men who had come visiting at the boarding house the previous Sunday, but her judgment was that they were "kind of punk". This seems to be a slightly different meaning from the description of grades or even feeling ill. But whatever she meant by it, she ended up marrying one of those "punk" young men. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:38:42 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: my grades are punk On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, David A. Johns wrote: At 09:59 AM 9/16/96 -0400, Dale Coye wrote: I just read my grandmother's diary from c.1920 when she was at Cornell. She wrote "My grades are punk." I asked my mother and father who were at Cornell in the early 40s about it and they told me they thought everyone knew it meant "very bad grades." I never heard it. Does anyone know how widespread it was and when it died out? My family has a letter written by my grandmother (why is it only grandmothers?) in about 1913. Only grandmothers? Well, maybe that depends on how old you are! My mother (80, born in Houston, TX, raised in Oklahoma, lived in Oregon since 1953) has always used "feeling punk" in the sense "not feling well" Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR She was living in a boarding house for young women in Chicago and working at Comiskey Park as a secretary. In the letter she described three young men who had come visiting at the boarding house the previous Sunday, but her judgment was that they were "kind of punk". This seems to be a slightly different meaning from the description of grades or even feeling ill. But whatever she meant by it, she ended up marrying one of those "punk" young men. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:56:56 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given I am working on a unit on uptalk (the use of high intonation at the end of declarative sentences) for my undergraduate class on language variation but have been unable to find any bibliography. I seem to remember an item or two in _American Speech_ but cannot locate it/them. Can anyone help me with suggestions for material--readings, tapes, etc.? Many thanks, Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, Univ of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:10:50 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: your mail About a year ago (or more?) there was a report on NPR's All Things Considered about this phenomenon. As I remember, they played tapes of several samples. Wish I could remember the date, or even the month and year, but maybe NPR could find it for you. There was also a discussion on this list some time back, which you could probably retrieve from the archives. I don't remember whether anyone cited any sources. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]calvin.linfield.edu On Mon, 16 Sep 1996, Michael Montgomery wrote: I am working on a unit on uptalk (the use of high intonation at the end of declarative sentences) for my undergraduate class on language variation but have been unable to find any bibliography. I seem to remember an item or two in _American Speech_ but cannot locate it/them. Can anyone help me with suggestions for material--readings, tapes, etc.? Many thanks, Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, Univ of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 16:22:22 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Beware the flood.... The flood hasn't come. I think there have been only a couple of new ADS-L subscriptions in the past couple of days. Be grateful for small typos. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Sep 1996 to 16 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 207 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. your mail 2. Ladybug Etymology? (2) 3. WHISTLIN' DIXIE: from Whistling Dick! 4. Etymology of "rat race" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:18:48 BST From: David Britain dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ESSEX.AC.UK Subject: Re: your mail On Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:56:56 EDT Michael Montgomery wrote: I am working on a unit on uptalk (the use of high intonation at the end of declarative sentences) for my undergraduate class on language variation but have been unable to find any bibliography. I seem to remember an item or two in _American Speech_ but cannot locate it/them. Can anyone help me with suggestions for material--readings, tapes, etc.? Here are some references about uptalk (or High Rising Terminals) from various places: New Zealand English: Britain, David. (1992). Linguistic change in intonation: the use of High Rising Terminals in New Zealand English. Language Variation and Change 4 77-104. Britain, David and Newman, John. (1992). High Rising Terminals in New Zealand English. Journal of the International Phonetic Association 22 (1/2) 1-11. Ainsworth, Helen. (1994). The emergence of the high rising terminal contour in the speech of New Zealand children. Te Reo: Journal of the Linguistic Society of New Zealand. 37 3-20. Allan, Scott. (1990). The rise of New Zealand intonation. In Allan Bell and Janet Holmes (eds.), New Zealand Ways of Speaking English. Clevedon: Multilingual Matters. 115-128. American English: Ching, Marvin. (1982). The question intonation in assertions. American Speech 57 95-107. Australian English: Dineen, Anne. (1992). High rise tones and Australian English intonation: a descriptive problem. In Tom Dutton, Malcolm Ross and Darrell Tryon (eds.), The language game: papers in memory of Donald C. Laycock. Canberra: Department of Linguistics, Australian National University. 115-124. Allan, Keith. (1984). The component functions of the high rise terminal contour in Australian declarative sentences. Australian Journal of Linguistics 4 19-32. Guy, Gregory and Vonwiller, Julia. (1984). The meaning of an intonation in Australian English. Australian Journal of Linguistics 4 1-17. Guy, Gregory, Horvath, Barbara, Vonwiller, Julia, Daisley, Elaine, Rogers, Inge. (1986). An intonation change in progress in Australian English. Language in Society 15 23-52. Horvath, Barbara. (1985). Variation in Australian English: the sociolects of Sydney. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. McGregor, R. (1980). The social distribution of an Australian English intonation contour Working Papers of the Speech and Language Research Centre, School of English and Linguistics, Macquarie University. 2 1-26. Steele, Patti. (1996). A discourse approach to the function of Australian high rising tone in narrative. Unpublished B.A. (Honours) Dissertation. Canberra: Department of Linguistics. Australian National University. Canadian English: James, Eric., Mahut, Christopher and Latkiewicz, George. (1989). The investigation of an apparently new intonation pattern in Toronto English. Information Communication (Speech and Voice Society and Phonetics Laboratory, University of Toronto) 10 11-17. Paddock, Harold. (1981). A dialect survey of Carbonear, Newfoundland. Urbana: American Dialect Society. HRTs in general: Cruttenden, Alan. (1995). Rises in English. In J. Windsor Lewis (ed.), Studies in General and English Phonetics: Essays in honour of Professor J. D. O Connor. London Routledge. 155-173. Hirschberg, Julia and Ward, Gregory. (1995). The interpretation of the high-rise question contour in English. Journal of Pragmatics. 24 407-12. Hope these are of some help... Dave Dr David J Britain Department of Language and Linguistics University of Essex Wivenhoe Park COLCHESTER Essex Great Britain CO4 3SQ dbritain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]essex.ac.uk Telephone: +44 1206 872101 Fax: +44 1206 872085 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 15:29:18 CDT From: Erin McKean emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Ladybug Etymology? Can any ADS-er help me out with sources for etymology/folklore involving the ladybug and the Virgin Mary? Somebody is bugging me (sorry, no pun intended) for some info about this for a religious article. They figured out that ladybug is "mariankaufer" in German and know that there's a story in there somewhere... any help gratefully received and deeply appreciated! --Erin McKean emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]midway.uchicago.edu OR erin.mckean[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]harpercollins.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 17:05:02 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: WHISTLIN' DIXIE: from Whistling Dick! I think it is in fact a far leap from "Dick" to "Dixie" at least in making the claim that this is the source of "Dixie." There is also the leap from someone named Dixey and the use of "Dixie." Both are intriguing, but neither is conclusive. Jeutonne Brewer jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 16:55:24 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Ladybug Etymology? Can any ADS-er help me out with sources for etymology/folklore involving the ladybug and the Virgin Mary? Somebody is bugging me (sorry, no pun intended) for some info about this for a religious article. They figured out that ladybug is "mariankaufer" in German and know that there's a story in there somewhere... any help gratefully received and deeply appreciated! --Erin McKean emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]midway.uchicago.edu OR erin.mckean[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]harpercollins.com __________________________________________________________________________ Ms McKean! The correct German word is Marienkaefer = (roughly) Marian Beetle, and NOT Mariankaufer, which does NOT exist as such in German. I believe the British may translate Marienkaefer as Ladybird (?), You might try looking up the term's etymologie in DER GROSSE DUDEN. smjones ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 22:28:05 -0400 From: David R Beach dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OSF1.GMU.EDU Subject: Etymology of "rat race" Does anyone know the etymology of "rat race"? Our sources say it came into usage around 1939, but not where. Any suggestions?? TIA David ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * David Beach + ESL Coordinator/Consultant * * The Writing Center at George Mason University * * 4400 University Drive + Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 + USA * * tel: +1-703-993-1200 fax: +1-703-993-3664 * * dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gmu.edu + http://osf1.gmu.edu/~wcenter * "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks the chief danger of our time." --John Stuart Mill ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Sep 1996 to 17 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 24 messages totalling 644 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BOGUS (movie title); other stuff (LAME DUCK, CORNERED, MARTINI, etc.) (2) 2. A new oxymoron? (8) 3. Whistling/Humming Dixie 4. Samuel Johnson's birthday (2) 5. Whistling/Humming Dixie -Reply (2) 6. Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply (3) 7. The Johnstown Flood 8. Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply -Reply 9. rat race (3) 10. Re[2]: Greasy et al. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:44:45 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: BOGUS (movie title); other stuff (LAME DUCK, CORNERED, MARTINI, etc.) BOGUS: A BOGUS movie opened up last week. No, I mean a movie called BOGUS--not a bogus movie! For the producers' sake, let's hope the customers don't pay with bogus coin! "Bogus" is an important Americanism with a very uncertain etymology. Early citations give an 1827 reference from Indiana. This doesn't help much, but it's an 1825 reference from Indiana. This is from THE MICROSCOPE (Early American Newspaper Series), New Albany, IND, 19 February 1825, vol. 1, no. 43, pg. 3, col. 2: FRANKFORT, KY. FEB. 12, 1825. Dear Tim--The _Mush-room_ Court of _Re_peals acted a Political, phantastical, Comic-tragic, Whimsical Burlesque Opera, in this town on Thursday & Friday last, to the great amusement of spectators, and terror of all the negroes. I will give you a sketch of the _fetes_-- Act I Scene 1--The Right honorable, the Lord chief Just_ass_ of Rag commerce, took the seat which he bought of the old Buzzard, at uncle Ned's cost. Scene 2--Three other Right honorable rag merchants and constitution brakers, took seats by the _Mush_room chief and thus formed the _Mushroom_ Court of _Re_peals. Scene 3--Enter Bogus, as _Sharp_ as a razor, with a sheet of paper in his hand--_Bogus_. I pray your honorable selves to hear me--_aside_ What a show four great mush-heads make, considering they are public barbers. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ LAME DUCK and TO CORNER: "Lame duck" was used on Wall Street before politics. The following item also beats by two years the DAE on "to corner." This is from the New York Herald, 27 November 1835, pg. 2, col. 2: MR. HERALD.--For the information of the uninitiated in the mysteries of Wall street, will you be so good as to give in your valuable paper as lucid an explanation as possible of the oft-used phrases "to be a lame duck," and "to corner." ANSWER.--First, "a lame duck" is one who cannot fulfil his contracts. If he is a broker, his name is struck from the rolls of the board, and he cannot again be admitted till all his engagements are fulfilled. If he is not a broker, he is cut, and disappears from the street. "To corner." A single individual, or a party of individuals, who have actually bought up, and control all the stock of a company, and at the same time, have employed brokers to buy the same stock _on time_, from third persons, are said to have "cornered" that stock. It is synonymous to monopolize or forestall ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- MARTINI: I checked several publications, and the earliest "martini" ad I found is now Puck, 22 March 1893, pg. 79. This puts us in World's Fair territory, so the Chicago dailies should be checked, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- ANYONE CAN WHISTLE, but...: I think I've been misunderstood slightly on "Whistling Dixie." Why don't we have "Whistling Suwanee?" For example, say Whistling Dick had been called Whistling Swan. THEN, a song called "Suwanee" comes along. I'm certain you'd have "Whistling Suwanee." Whistling Dick, who whistled "Mockingbird," himself was named after the Whistling Dick bird of Van Dieman's Land (Tanzania). I also left out a minor article, "On the Rhetoric of Popular Song: 'Y'ain't Juzz Whizzlin' 'Dixie''" by Carl B. Holmberg, Popular Music and Society, vol. 9, no. 4, 1984, pp. 27-33. The proper name "Dixie" and its origins I said I would leave to another day. I also have quite important stuff on the naming of the "New York Yankees," which I was told will be in a revised "Yankees" entry in the next edition of the Encyclopedia of New York City. "Dixie" and "Yankee" are astonishing stuff--rather long, though. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 01:19:08 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: A new oxymoron? Is "uninformed question" an oxymoron? akra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:09:07 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? Albert E. Krahn wrote: Is "uninformed question" an oxymoron? I suppose so. Touche'. By the way,did y'all know that "oxymoron" came from the words "Oxford" and "moron", because it was a contradiction in terms to call someone who graduated from such a prestigious school a dumby. (The "y" in the middle is the Spanish word for "and".) I know it's true, because that's what the guys who hung around Buddy's Pool hall when I was growing up used to say. Danny "Bubba" Long ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:09:47 -0400 From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? Albert E. Krahn wrote: Is "uninformed question" an oxymoron? I suppose so. Touche'. By the way,did y'all know that "oxymoron" came from the words "Oxford" and "moron", because it was a contradiction in terms to call someone who graduated from such a prestigious school a dumby. (The "y" in the middle is the Spanish word for "and".) I know it's true, because that's what the guys who hung around Buddy's Pool hall when I was growing up used to say. Danny "Bubba" Long Dear Bubba, The boys at Buddy's were bumfuzzled. The word comes from the Greek and referred to "a clever remark, more pointedly witty for seeming absurd or foolish" (American Heritage Dictionary), from roots meaning "sharp and dull, pointed and foolish" (Oxford Companion to the English Language). The billiards brothers were involved in a kind of folk etymology dealing with class or intellect ridicule. Sorry, but sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. David Muschell David Muschell Dept. of English, Speech, and Journalism Box 44 Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu (912)-453-5556 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 08:26:37 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Whistling/Humming Dixie The mention of "Whistling Dixie" in the same line with "Dick" reminded me of a mumbled question I used to hear from a friend of mine from Louisville, Kentucky: "But can she hum Dixie?"--meaning "Can she perform fellatio?" Go figure. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:37:13 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? I'm not going to touch the troll part of Bubba's note (the etymology) with a 10-foot pole, beyond commenting that a growing number of ads-ers seem to be susceptible to such trolls anymore. Maybe we'll have to revert to smileys to signal our bad faith, which would take the fun out of it. But as for the first part, I beg to differ. Any question that builds in a presupposition can be said to be uninformed: Have you stopped beating your pet iguana? Why did you support English-only legislation, Senator? When did scientists discover that water is an element? and so on. All is takes is that the presupposition be false. Incidentally, you may be interested to know that I can produce the true der- ivation of 'oxymoron'. My NCD 7, fresh off the shelf, defines the prefix OXY- as 'of oxygen and', and when I checked MORON in the OED, all I could find (besides an obsolete form of 'morn', which didn't seem to apply) was 'a variety of salamander', from the OF mo(u)ron, with the citation 'With respect to the salamander, the whole tribe, from the Moron to the Gekko, are said to be venomous to the last degree' [Goldsmith 1774, Nat. Hist.]. An OXYMORON, thus, would have originally been something consisting of oxygen and a venomous salamander. Presumably nothing of that sort exists, hence the current meaning. (Good thing I turned up an 11-foot pole.) --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Albert E. Krahn wrote: Is "uninformed question" an oxymoron? I suppose so. Touche'. By the way,did y'all know that "oxymoron" came from the words "Oxford" and "moron", because it was a contradiction in terms to call someone who graduated from such a prestigious school a dumby. (The "y" in the middle is the Spanish word for "and".) I know it's true, because that's what the guys who hung around Buddy's Pool hall when I was growing up used to say. Danny "Bubba" Long ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:01:29 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? As I see it, "uninformed question" is not and oxymoron if we accept the definition of such as "contradictory or incongruous word combinations. Not all questions are uninformed; indeed, the best questions probably emerge from a good sense of the problem considered. Questions may serve several functions in conversations (e.g. some may be rhetorical). And in a court of law, there is an adage: "never ask a a witness any question to which you don't already know the answer." Thus, not all questions come from a condition where one is uninformed. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 09:42:40 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? Not just lawyers: teachers and parents (and of course psychometricians) also ask questions to which they already know the answers. And everybody knows that psychometricians are oxymorons. Perhaps then it should be not an uninformed but a "pre-informed" question, ie, the question ordinarily preceeds the answer, whether or not the questioner knows or even cares about the answer. I say ordinarily because there is a situation (popular tv quiz show--I stopped watching these after Charlie Van Doren took the fall) where the answer comes before the question. Perhaps the name of that quiz show is hysteron proteron? Does this meet Gricean happiness conditions? Is anyone ever really happy? As for the derivation of oxymoron, Francis Junius (the younger) in the Etymologicum anglicanum (Oxford, 1743) suggests the similarity of Gk. oxy- and Finnish aksi, 'the number one, ordinally speaking.' Moron is of course the Doric sg. putative (masculine, class IIa) form of mor-, Italic mora PDE more, 'more.' The singular of more being one, oxymoron clearly means one-one, placing it in the category of litotic tautologies. Remember lucus a non lucendo? QED. Dennis, doctor grammaticus -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:05:50 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? I particularly liked how the Spanish y was transformed into an infix and then buried. beth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:07:49 -0400 From: Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: Samuel Johnson's birthday Today is the anniversary of the birth of Samuel Johnson, born in 1709. His dictionary (first published in 1755) has been described as a monument of English scholarship. His was not the first dictionary of English, not even the first big dictionary. But it was the earliest big one to rely so heavily upon quotations. And, it was Johnson's dictionary that was used by Murray in calculating the scope of his work for what was to become the Oxford English Dictionary. Enjoy your day, and remember that we stand on the shoulders of our forebearers. Regards, David K. Barnhart, Editor The Barnhart Dictionary Companion Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:51:45 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? As I see it, "uninformed question" is not and oxymoron if we accept the definition of such as "contradictory or incongruous word combinations. Not all questions are uninformed; indeed, the best questions probably emerge from a good sense of the problem considered. Questions may serve several functions in conversations (e.g. some may be rhetorical). And in a court of law, there is an adage: "never ask a a witness any question to which you don't already know the answer." Thus, not all questions come from a condition where one is uninformed. you seem to be denying not that "uninformed question" is an oxymoron, but instead that it's redundant, which as your argument points out, it's not. the question of whether it's oxymoronic would require us to debate whether it's true or not that no questions are uninformed (rather than all questions are uninformed). lynne ------------------------------------------------------------------ M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:54:58 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Whistling/Humming Dixie -Reply Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 0918.0726 The mention of "Whistling Dixie" in the same line with "Dick" reminded me of a mumbled question I used to hear from a friend of mine from Louisville, Kentucky: "But can she hum Dixie?"--meaning "Can she perform fellatio?" Go figure. Humming while performing fellatio is said to provide added pleasure for the ... fellatee? As to why "Dixie", maybe it's (a) just a well-known title (and maybe echoing "not just whistlin' Dixie"), to add some color to the literal content (b) maybe "south [of the M.-D. line]" metaphorically for genitals as below the waist? I have seen this metaphor before, though I can't give a quotation. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 12:00:46 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 0918.1007 Today is the anniversary of the birth of Samuel Johnson, born in 1709. [...] Enjoy your day, and remember that we stand on the shoulders of our forebearers. Ugh! ForeBEARS! When tempted to add "-er" to this word, please forbear! "My forebears came from Flanders. Well, three of them, at any rate. Who's been sleeping in my porridge?" -- Michael Flanders -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 11:44:04 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Samuel Johnson's birthday remember that we stand on the shoulders of our forebearers. Hence we should practice forebearance? Dennis Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:26:50 -0700 From: Glen Edward Uber glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]METRO.NET Subject: Re: Whistling/Humming Dixie -Reply At 11:54 18.09.96 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU 0918.0726 The mention of "Whistling Dixie" in the same line with "Dick" reminded me of a mumbled question I used to hear from a friend of mine from Louisville, Kentucky: "But can she hum Dixie?"--meaning "Can she perform fellatio?" Go figure. Humming while performing fellatio is said to provide added pleasure for the ... fellatee? As to why "Dixie", maybe it's (a) just a well-known title (and maybe echoing "not just whistlin' Dixie"), to add some color to the literal content (b) maybe "south [of the M.-D. line]" metaphorically for genitals as below the waist? I have seen this metaphor before, though I can't give a quotation. Oh, great...my first post is a response to a question about fellatio. What sort of first impression is that? Nevertheless, here it goes: Another euphemism for fellatio is the phrase, "Blowing the National Anthem". As you all will be aware, one is required to "stand" during the national anthem. Back to lurk mode, --g ########################################################## "And I wonder, when I'm sixty-four, Will I even like the Beatles anymore?" --Glen Uber 'Changing Faces' ########################################################## # Glen E. Uber glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]metro.net http://metro.net/glen/ # ########################################################## ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 13:23:35 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 0918.0544 Hence we should practice forebearance? Strike the first "e". This is "for-" ~= "away, destroyed", as in "forgive", "forget", "forfend", archaic "fordo"; not "fore-" ~= "before, in front", as in "foresee", "forehead", "forewarned", and indeed "before". Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:42:14 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply Hence we should practice forebearance? Strike the first "e". This is "for-" ~= "away, destroyed", as in "forgive", "forget", "forfend", archaic "fordo"; not "fore-" ~= "before, in front", as in "foresee", "forehead", "forewarned", and indeed "before". Mark A. Mandel : Mark! Fore shame. dennis Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 14:57:02 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Creswell" creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: The Johnstown Flood -- [ From: Thomas J. Creswell * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Does anyone remember the childhood injunction "Don't spit! Remember the Johnstown flood"? Even though the Johnstown (Pa.) flood occurred in 1889, the expression had some currency well into the 1920's. Is the expression now dead, or is it still in use? Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:47:38 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Samuel Johnson's birthday -Reply -Reply Eh? Did I get it wrong? Or are you blaming me for the pun, which wasn't mine? (*That* one wasn't.) -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 17:58:15 -0400 From: David R Beach dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OSF1.GMU.EDU Subject: rat race Thanks to Maggie Ronkin at Georgetown U for pointing me in the right direction. The term "rat race" first showed up in 1937 in a publication titled _American Speech_ as a term for recreations. The rat-race was a dance of low-grade nature. It also appears in C. Morley's _Kitty Foyle_ (1939): "Their own private life gets to be a rat-race." source: Oxford English Dictionary on the Web ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * David Beach + ESL Coordinator/Consultant * * The Writing Center at George Mason University * * 4400 University Drive + Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 + USA * * tel: +1-703-993-1200 fax: +1-703-993-3664 * * dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gmu.edu + http://osf1.gmu.edu/~wcenter * "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks the chief danger of our time." --John Stuart Mill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 15:58:39 -0700 From: Glen At Metro Dot Net glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]METRO.NET Subject: Re: rat race At 17:58 18.09.96 -0400, David R Beach wrote: source: Oxford English Dictionary on the Web Would anyone happen to have the URL for this site? Thanx, --g ########################################################## "Why is there no easy way to remember how to spell 'mnemonic'?" --Glen Uber ########################################################## # Glen E. Uber glen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]metro.net http://metro.net/glen/ # ########################################################## ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:23:08 -0400 From: David R Beach dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OSF1.GMU.EDU Subject: Re: rat race On Wed, 18 Sep 1996, Glen At Metro Dot Net wrote: source: Oxford English Dictionary on the Web Would anyone happen to have the URL for this site? Thanks, Glen, for pointing this out. I accessed the OED through our link here at George Mason U. There is a notice on the website that the OED can only be accessed by students and faculty at GMU. So I assume that the publisher grants a site license to universities and other institutions to allow its students/faculty/ employees to access the OED. If my assumption is incorrect, someone please correct it. david ------------------------------------------------------------------------- * David Beach + ESL Coordinator/Consultant * * The Writing Center at George Mason University * * 4400 University Drive + Fairfax, VA 22030-4444 + USA * * tel: +1-703-993-1200 fax: +1-703-993-3664 * * dbeach[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gmu.edu + http://osf1.gmu.edu/~wcenter * "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks the chief danger of our time." --John Stuart Mill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 22:00:35 -0400 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: BOGUS (movie title); other stuff (LAME DUCK, CORNERED, MARTINI, etc.) According to Lorenzo Dow Turner, a black linguist who studied African languages, bogus comes from the West African Hausa word _boko_ meaning deceit or fake. See his _Africanisms in the Gullah Dialect (1949). Margaret Lee Hampton University, VA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 19:14:09 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re[2]: Greasy et al. Is 'parsley' another such word? 'Visa' has voicing much farther north than 'greasy'--many Wisconsin speakers have /z/ in 'visa but not in the latter word--but many southerners have /s/ in 'parsley'. Or is /z/ in this word an oddity for southern spkrs? I've never heard anything _but_ s in parsley. Parzley zounds very ztrange. Rima ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Sep 1996 to 18 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 12 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. country seat (4) 2. Re[2]: Greasy et al. -Reply 3. country seat -Reply 4. Country Seat 5. Lex Opportunity 6. etymology of FEIST (2) 7. No subject given 8. Brogue ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 08:37:42 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: country seat Help please. I was just contacted by someone researching Thoreau and Walden. He asked about the meaning of "country seat" in chapter 2, wondering whether that meant "outhouse." I don't have anything here at home at this hour to help me out. Is this is Vol I of DARE? Or, does anyone have a ref for "country seat"? Is it a pun? Thanks, Beth Simon (8:45 in Indiana, where we don't change our clocks, so I don't know if this is est, cst, or cdt). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:14:44 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re[2]: Greasy et al. -Reply Anent 'parsley', sort of: I was quite surprised the first time I heard "parse" with a voiced fricative, and attributed it to the speaker's non-native and accented English. But I've heard it from native speakers as well, so I have to suppose it's not idiosyncratic or a matter of accent. (Besides, I knew that speaker in high school as well as currently.) These are mostly researchers in speech, natural language processing, or computer science. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:27:17 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: country seat -Reply simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU 0919.0837 I was just contacted by someone researching Thoreau and Walden. He asked about the meaning of "country seat" in chapter 2, wondering whether that meant "outhouse." I don't have the text, but I suspect it means "a house in the country": "seat" as in "base of operations", cf. "seat of government", "county [no R] seat" = 'capital of the county govt.' Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 07:57:54 -0500 From: Jim McCulloch mcculloch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU Subject: Re: country seat At 08:37 pm 9/19/96 EST, you wrote: Help please. I was just contacted by someone researching Thoreau and Walden. He asked about the meaning of "country seat" in chapter 2, wondering whether that meant "outhouse." I don't have anything here at home at this hour to help me out. Is this is Vol I of DARE? Or, does anyone have a ref for "country seat"? Is it a pun? Thanks, Beth Simon (8:45 in Indiana, where we don't change our clocks, so I don't know if this is est, cst, or cdt). A country seat is a country house, normally owned by someone wealthy enough to also have a city house. Hence, when Thoreau speaks of his country seat, he is referring ironically to the implication of magnificence as the phrase was used in contemporary literature. --Jim McCulloch ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:26:48 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: country seat Thanks everyone for your responses, here and back channel. So, it appears that Thoreau was not using a double entendre with outhouse in mind. beth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 10:30:47 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: country seat DARE possessers: Is this in Vol I? (I'm on my way to Valparaiso, so can't check until tomorrow.) beth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 11:18:46 -0500 From: "DICK HEABERLIN, ENGLISH DEPARTMENT, SOUTHWEST TEXAS STATE UNIVERSITY" DH12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SWT.EDU Subject: Re: Country Seat Thoreau loves puns and uses them throughout _Walden_. So even though "country seat" means "country home" it still could and is likely to be a pun. Dick Heaberlin Southwest Texas State ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 12:35:17 EDT From: Orin Hargraves 100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Lex Opportunity NB No. 1: If you responded to this notice when it appeared here several weeks ago, there is no need to respond again. NB No. 2: Please do not forward this notice to any other list; doing so will have the effect of increasing agony for the overworked and underpaid! Now with that out of the way: there is an opportunity for freelance lexicographers and editors with reference experience to work on a major reference project. Candidates must be: 1) Native speakers of American English. 2) Experienced in writing lexicographic or encyclopedic entries, or, experienced in Americanizing text written in British English. Experience in both of these areas would be a bonus. 3) Aware of American cultural and linguistic biases, such as might come about from prolonged experience of another culture or different English speech community. 4) Willing to work on-screen, and able to exchange encoded files via e-mail (using Uuencode and decode programs). 5) Able to work to deadlines and turn out high-quality work. Successful candidates will be offered regular work at competitive rates for the next couple of years at least and involvement in an exciting and challenging project. The calibre of responses to this notice the first time it appeared was very high indeed and has allowed the publisher to be quite selective. It is appearing here again in the hope of reaching any possible candidates who were still away for the summer the first time it appeared. If you are interested please respond with a brief resume detailing your experience via e-mail to 100422.2566 [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com If possible please indicate the number of hours per week you might be available to work. With best wishes, Orin Hargraves 438 Bankard Road Westminster MD 21158 phone 410 346 7889 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:20:09 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: etymology of FEIST The term "feist" and "cur" often are referred to as a dog of uncertain bloodlines. However certain feist and cur dog varities have been preserved in Appalachia and Southern Ontario Canada that are bred for purpose since the 1700's and have been registered since 1980. [...] Goethe (he hated dogs) in "Faust" refers to the word. Considering that Goethe wrote in German, what's that got to do with it? My (admittedly not exhaustive) G-E dictionary lists "feist" only as an adjective meaning 'fat' or 'obese'. If Goethe did indeed use "Feist" as a word for a kind of dog, it may have etymological relevance. If the word occurs in an English translation, then of course it bears not on Goethe's usage but the translator's. M y memory is that FEIST and FART are etymologically connected. At ANY RATE, speaking experientially, the connection makes sense to me. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 14:29:18 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST Ron Butters wrote: M y memory is that FEIST and FART are etymologically connected. At ANY RATE, speaking experientially, the connection makes sense to me. In one of the two conversations that I ever had with Raven McDavid, Jr. (this one in an elevator), he talked about feist dogs and reminisced about an old expression pronounced when someone farted: "Whew! That must've been a feist dog"--or something like that. OK, two days back, two posts, one on farts and one on fellatio--am I cooking or what? Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 15:01:08 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given I am interested in learning the geographical distribution and meaning of the noun _brogue_ in reference to a distinctive way of speech. That is to say, its application is/has become rather wider than to the way Irish speak. When growing up in East Tennessee, I frequently heard reference to an "East Tennessee brogue", meaning the distinctive way folks talked there--there was no hint of a relationship to anything Irish or suggestion of Irish features in the local speech. The term is not entered in _DARE_, which would lead one to assume either that its distribution is very widespread in U.S. or that it wasn't found to have a meaning other than the standard one pertaining to an Irish accent/dialect. Where in the U.S. is it attested? Do folks ever charac- terize local or regional speech as a "brogue" in Texas? Indiana? West Virginia? Arkansas? Is it used to refer only to accent or is it a more generic term? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Michael MOntgomery, Dept of English U of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 20:07:20 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Brogue At 03:01 PM 9/19/96 EDT, you wrote: Where in the U.S. is it attested? Do folks ever charac- terize local or regional speech as a "brogue" in Texas? Indiana? West Virginia? Arkansas? Is it used to refer only to accent or is it a more generic term? Thanks for any thoughts on this. I have a colleague here who seems to use it to refer to any strong local accent: "She grew up here, but she doesn't have the brogue." This woman is in her late 50s, grew up and went to college in Charleston (but her parents were from Maine), lived for a while in Columbus, GA, and in Waycross since about '71. I haven't heard it in that use from anyone else, here or elsewhere. It certainly meant Irish where I grew up, in Massachusetts. David Johns Waycross, GA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Sep 1996 to 19 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 27 messages totalling 640 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. uninformed euphemism 2. "uptalk" (3) 3. brogue sighted 4. K-9 (for "canine"): or, My Life Goes to the Dogs! 5. Brogue 6. American Speech&rat race 7. A new oxymoron? 8. "uptalk" -Reply (Cindie McLemore) 9. "brogue" in Ottawa Valley 10. etymology of FEIST (6) 11. how much of a village? 12. etymology of FEIST -Reply 13. Salty Dog (4) 14. Salty Dog -Reply 15. "Irish Twins" (2) 16. No subject given ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 19 Sep 1996 23:37:06 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: uninformed euphemism I like Dennis Baron's "pre-informed question." But I'm beginning to wonder if "uninformed question" is just a euphemism for "stupid question." Does this make it a stupid oxymoron? Or is it a pre-informed double question? akra Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 414 /W297-6519/F297-7990/H476-4025 Owner PUNCT-L : a mailing list for discussing punctuation. Send for subscription instructions. krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us !()":;'?.,!-!()-'";:?.,!-)("':;?.,!-)('";:?.,!-_)("':;?.,!_-)("':;?.,!-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 00:59:43 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: "uptalk" David Britain's refs were a very helpful resource. However he left off the work of Cindie McLemore, whose diss. at U.Texas-Austin was about 1990 I think-- I can send a fuller ref. A lot of the work on HRTs (Hi Rising Tones) has claimed them as new and distinctive for whatever dialect the discoverer was studying. In the US it's known for young white female speech, esp. Calif. Valley Girl-- like much else that is neither new nor specific to this apparently highly disparagable group. One of the things Cindie has pointed out is how widespread it is, and how malleable to social function-- she studied a Texas sorority where it obviously couldn't "mean" the identity "young white female" since every single member was obviously that. Btw, it was her on NPR a couple years ago; last I knew you could reach her via email at UPenn. --peter patrick georgetown u. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 01:24:32 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: brogue sighted "Brogue" is used by Ocockers to describe the dialect spoken on Ocracoke and nearby Outer Banks isles. Thanks to the efforts of Walt Wolfram et al in researching and publicizing it, I even have a T-shirt to prove it. There is certainly Irish influence there. I have a few times heard "brogue" used by Jamaicans to describe the use of Jamaican Creole, but it's not one of the top ten terms-- again, lots of Irish (and Scots) from Cromwell's time on, but I wouldn't guess as to date or pathway. For what it's worth, the Jamaicans have been countryfolk and not educated types. --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:07:13 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: K-9 (for "canine"): or, My Life Goes to the Dogs! This is about the origin of "K-9" for "canine," but a little personal anecdote must come first. I was reading a large newspaper story (with a large photo) about a woman who was being evicted from her luxury apartment building because she refused to give up her dogs. It was alleged that her dogs were vicious, and she didn't register them with the co-op. Who cares? Upon reading further, I found out that this woman lived in MY BUILDING. She's currently suing us for $2.2 million, or $1.1 million per dog!! This story made the New York Post, the Daily News, The New York Times (11 Sept. 1996, A20, col. 1), Channels 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, WCBS newsradio, and WINS newsradio. Everything! Full news coverage! For two dogs!! Five years ago, Gerald Cohen and I solved the derivation of the "Big Apple." For five years, we've been trying to publish the story of New York City's nickname in a single New York City news outlet (three years later, it made one). New York Newsday (which no longer exists) told me the story wasn't news, and then ran a front page story on Joey Buttafuoco. In the etymology business--and I've the "hot dog" along with the "Big Apple" and the "Windy City"--I haven't even made one cent. I guess I'm less important than dogs.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------- Who invented K-9? It seems natural enough from "canine," but in the many "hot dog" papers I have from the 19th century, I didn't see it used once. In Stuart Berg Flexner's I HEAR AMERICA TALKING, pg. 437, he has "_the K-9 Corps_ (a pun on 'canine') was the corps of army guard dogs or 'war dogs.' It was originally known as D4D (Dogs for Defense) and sometimes called _the Wags_." In Paul Dickson's WAR SLANG, pg. 183, he has "K-9 CORPS. Dogs used in war. The Army's K-9 Corps, organized during the war, was originally called D4D ('Dogs for Defense')." A check of the Eureka computer network shows a movie THE K-9 KADETS (1944) and THE K-9 CORPS, OFFICIAL MARCH OF "DOGS FOR DEFENSE" (1943). James Belushi starred in the movie K-9 (a dog!) in 1989. The term is used in about a dozen other titles--one from 1961, and the others from the 1980s and 1990s. Does anyone have K-9 before WWII? This (the earliest I found) comes from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 8 February 1915, p. 12, sports column banner headline: Why Not Call the Terriers the K-9's? They Might Submarine the Whales. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:34:58 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: "uptalk" I have a question about this: One of the things Cindie has pointed out is how widespread it is, and how malleable to social function-- she studied a Texas sorority where it obviously couldn't "mean" the identity "young white female" since every single member was obviously that. I see what you mean about it being unnecessary for these young white females to demonstrate to each other that they were young white females. But I thought identity played a bigger role in language use than that. Can't the use of certain langauge variants (or whole varieties) serve the purpose of reinforcing a speakers identity, not just to show the others people in the group that "I'm one of you", but to continually reinforce that message? For example, in Japanese, women use "women's language" in a variable way, especially when they want the person they want to be sure that the listener is *consciousness* of the fact that they are a woman (when acting romantic, as opposed to acting businesslike, etc.). I think the same thing could be said here of "men's language", or of USA BEV, etc. even in cases where it obvious that the speaker is a male, or is African-American, etc. Danny "like, who doesn't use uptalk?" Long ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:46:25 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Brogue Here is the (empirical) story about 'brogue' as a regional identifier (at least from five regions): In a task in which respondents were asked to 'draw in and label' the 'speech regions' of the US, fifty such hand-drawn maps were selected for an analysis of the labels themselves (except from Hawaii, where only 35 such maps were available for study). 1. For southeastern Michigan respondents, out of 344 such labels, the word 'brogue' was not used at all. 2. For southern Indiana respondents, out of 225 labels, the word 'brogue' was used four times, as follows: 'Boston Brogue' 'Northern brogue' (referring to a large upper-midwestern and northeastern area) 'Northern brouge' [sic] (referring to the same area) 'Brogue' (referring to Texas) 3. For South Carolina respondents, out of 348 labels, the word 'brogue' was used once, as follows: 'Western Broague' (referring to the entire large area west of the Mississippi river) 4. For Oregon respondents, out of 319 labels, the work 'brogue' was used once, as follows: 'Thick Brogue' (referring to a generally northeastern area, including New England) 5. For Hawaii repondents (total number of labels not counted), the word 'brogue was never used. First, although the use of 'brogue' for the West and for Texas may seem odd, the majority of uses are for the northeast and/or Boston ('focal' New England). That that identifiation may have 'Irish' overtones for some respodnents might indeed be the case. Second, it would appear that the term 'brogue' is seldom used as a 'variety descriptor' in the folk identification of speech areas. This, of course, does not address use in other areas nor uses which might single out ethnic and/or class varieties since the research reported on here refers more generally to regional distribution (although nonregional 'facts' [e.g., relative 'correctness'] are often used by these respondents in their identifications). It is not the case, however, that such labels are rare. 16% of the Michigan labels, 9% of the Indiana labels, 26% of the South Carolina labels, and 18.5% of the Oregon labels are such language variety descriptors. (We do not have quantitative results for Hawaii, but 'pidgin' [various spellings!] is a very common identifier for the local post-creole variety, and I have no doubt that the percentage of such labels for the Hawaii repondents would be as high or higher than that for the South Carolina data.) Come to NWAV in Las Vegas and hear Laura Hartley and me give a full report on this label study. Dennis Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:52:31 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: American Speech&rat race DBeach writes: The term "rat race" first showed up in 1937 in a publication titled _American Speech_ . . . For those who may not be aware of it, AMERICAN SPEECH is the quarterly journal of the American Dialect Society, the sponsoring organization for ADS-L . Subscriptions are free with a membership to the American Dialect Society, which is cheap. For further information, contact Allan Metcalf, the executive secretary of ADS, at AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com . ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 09:58:59 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: A new oxymoron? Is "uninformed question" an oxymoron? No. In fact, this very question might be considered uninformed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:00:39 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "uptalk" -Reply (Cindie McLemore) Cindie (Cynthia) McLemore works (currently part-time) for the Linguistic Data Consortium, which operates out of UPenn, and can be reached by email at cam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unagi.cis.upenn.edu. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Peter L. Patrick PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU 0919.2359 David Britain's refs were a very helpful resource. However he left off the work of Cindie McLemore, whose diss. at U.Texas-Austin was about 1990 I think-- I can send a fuller ref. [...] One of the things Cindie has pointed out is how widespread it is, and how malleable to social function-- she studied a Texas sorority where it obviously couldn't "mean" the identity "young white female" since every single member was obviously that. Btw, it was her on NPR a couple years ago; last I knew you could reach her via email at UPenn. --peter patrick georgetown u. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:06:25 -0400 From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: "brogue" in Ottawa Valley The term 'brogue' was used by people in the Ottawa Valley when they were talking about their distinctive speech. The varieties I had access to were Scots-based, and the people who talked to me had Scots ancestry. (The published result is a short article "Ottawa Valley 'twang'" in my 1975 book Canadian English: Origins and Structures, pp. 55-59.) I noted that "the terms 'twang' or (more usually among the residents of the Valley) 'brogue'" are used, but I didn't make explicit notes about who used which term or how often they used it. Jack Chambers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 10:13:17 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST Actually, Goethe only uses the word "feist" once in "Faust" and that in the sense of fat. Adressing the "fat devils (Dickteufeln) with short, straight horns" is line 11657: Ihr glueht so recht vom Hoellenschwefel feist; (you glow so fat from Hell-sulphur). Kluge's Etymologisches Woerterbuch (22. Aufl) lists "feist" adj. MHG viez(e)t, OHG feiz(i)t cf. Anglo Saxon "faett" feist is the past participle of veizen = ONorse feita "to make fat, fatten" Grimm gives "feist" as ventus tacitus, Gk bdesma and the verb feisten as "visire, peditum sine crepitum etmittere, Gk. bdein. and gives several humorous examples of its use (one of the latest to use feisten = to fart silently is Luther.) fart is derived from Gk. perdesthai, Skt. pardate OHG is ferzan, doesn't seem conected to veizen. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Ron Butters wrote: The term "feist" and "cur" often are referred to as a dog of uncertain bloodlines. However certain feist and cur dog varities have been preserved in Appalachia and Southern Ontario Canada that are bred for purpose since the 1700's and have been registered since 1980. [...] Goethe (he hated dogs) in "Faust" refers to the word. Considering that Goethe wrote in German, what's that got to do with it? My (admittedly not exhaustive) G-E dictionary lists "feist" only as an adjective meaning 'fat' or 'obese'. If Goethe did indeed use "Feist" as a word for a kind of dog, it may have etymological relevance. If the word occurs in an English translation, then of course it bears not on Goethe's usage but the translator's. M y memory is that FEIST and FART are etymologically connected. At ANY RATE, speaking experientially, the connection makes sense to me. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:43:06 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST Someone writes: fart is derived from Gk. perdesthai, Skt. pardate OHG is ferzan, doesn't seem conected to veizen This can't be right. If the Gk and Skt WORDS are truly as indicated, then they are COGNATE with the Germanic words (including English FART) rather than the words from which the English word "derives"; that is, all three are derived from the same ProtoIndoEuropean form. If PERDESTHAI had been borrowed into English, it would have come in as PERD--, not FART. Nor does it seem likely that our ancestors would have reached to Sanskrit for the word for something so common as the anal fricative. Again I am working only from memory, but it seems to me that rhotacism explains the r/z alternation here (cf. WAS/WERE, LOST/FORLORN), and that FICE and FART are ultimately derived from the same ProtoIndoEuropean word. Eric Hamp, where are you when we need you? (And is it true that your last name is cognate with CANNIBIS?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 02:21:10 -0400 From: jerry miller millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU Subject: how much of a village? This is a little off the line of this discussion group, but, in connection with something I am trying to write, a couple of questions arose in my head about the title of Hillary Clinton's book, "It Takes A Village," to wit: 1. Is the original saying from which the title comes "It takes a village to raise a child" or "It takes a whole village to raise a child"? 2. I know the saying is always characterized as an African saying, but does anyone know anything more specifically about its origin, geographically, sociologically, and/or etymologically? Thanks. Jerry Miller Pulliam School of Journalism Franklin (Ind.) College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:42:54 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST -Reply Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 0920.1343 [...] Eric Hamp, where are you when we need you? (And is it true that your last name is cognate with CANNIBIS?) "CANN A BIS", please! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:52:00 -0400 From: Richard Markwald rm48[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: Salty Dog Does anyone know the derivation and etymology of the term "Salty Dog"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:47:24 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Salty Dog This and "salt" are common variations of the nickname "old salt", according to Urdang's and LaRoche's (1980:227) _Picturesque Expressions: A Thematic Dictionary_. U and L claim that since a particularly old or experienced sailor is a "sea dog", "the allusion [made by "salty dog"] is to the salt in the seawater to which a sailor is constantly exposed". Maggie =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Maggie Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Richard Markwald wrote: Does anyone know the derivation and etymology of the term "Salty Dog"? ______________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:18:19 -0500 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: Salty Dog What's the meaning of "salty dog" in the bluegrass song of that name: "I want to be your salty dog, or I won't be your man at all. Honey, let me be your salty dog....."? I always took it to mean something quite *other* than "old salt".....Becky Howard, Colgate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:18:12 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Salty Dog -Reply Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.acc.georgetown.edu 0920.1447 This and "salt" are common variations of the nickname "old salt", according to Urdang's and LaRoche's (1980:227) _Picturesque Expressions: A Thematic Dictionary_. U and L claim that since a particularly old or experienced sailor is a "sea dog", "the allusion [made by "salty dog"] is to the salt in the seawater to which a sailor is constantly exposed". That's what I thought as the origin of the phrase, but it seems to have picked up a sexual meaning somewhere along the line (doesn't almost everything?). There's a blues(?) that goes: Let me be your salty dog, or I don't wanna be your man at all. Honey, let me be your salty dog. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:46:40 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST In all this talk about the association of "feist" and "fart," keep in mind that Bernard Chien Perro, co-listowner of ADS-L, is half feist. If he gets too upset by the comments, he may kick us all off the list. (But he usually keeps his feist half a secret and passes as a beagle.) --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 15:38:05 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: "Irish Twins" From the Stumpers list: Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:47:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Madeline Schulman mschulma[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oceancounty.lib.nj.us To: stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crf.cuis.edu Subj: ? irish twins Patrons is looking for the origin and history of the expression "Irish Twins," believed to be a Mid-Western expression referring to siblings born very close together -- not actual twins but within a year of each other. We have checked all our dictionaries and all our books on slang, regional English, words and phrases, the American language -- in short, our whole R400 section. Does any librarian (perhaps in the Midwest) have a concrete citation for this phrase? Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 13:59:04 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Ron Butters wrote: Someone writes: fart is derived from Gk. perdesthai, Skt. pardate OHG is ferzan, doesn't seem conected to veizen yes someone did, and someone is sorry about the sloppy terminology. you are right that fart is cognate with and not derived from either Gk or Skt. fart/Furz and fat/feist come from different IE roots, if the Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology is to be believed. fart-- OE *feortan (in feorting, vbl sb) ME uertan corr. to MG verten OHG ferzan MHG verzen, vurzen ON w/metath. freta--Common Germanic *fertan, *fortan, *furtan:-- IE base *perd- *pord- *prd- as repr Skt. pard, prd, Av pereden (3rd pl) Alb perth (1st sing), Gr perdein, aor. epardon, pf. peporda, porde- sb. Lith., perdziu, Russ. perdet. fat-- OE faet(t)=OFris fatt, fett, MDu MLG vett (Du vet) OHG feizzit (G feist; fett is LG) WGermanic *fatidhaz pp. formulated on *faitjan "fatten" (OHG veizzen ON feita) f. *faitaz adj "fat" OS feit, OHG feiz, ON feitr .. perhaps rel to IE *poid- *pid- basic meaning "to gush forth" as in Gr piduein "gush" pidax "spring" ... extension of *poi-, *pi "be swollen, gush out, variations of which areseen in several words denoting fatness eg. Skt. piva, Gr piar, pion, pimele, Lat optimus, pinguis. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:14:09 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST Is Bernard Chien Perro known in some quarters as "Bernard-San"? (TGIF) Peter On Fri, 20 Sep 1996, Natalie Maynor wrote: In all this talk about the association of "feist" and "fart," keep in mind that Bernard Chien Perro, co-listowner of ADS-L, is half feist. If he gets too upset by the comments, he may kick us all off the list. (But he usually keeps his feist half a secret and passes as a beagle.) --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:18:27 PDT From: "//www.usa.net/~ague" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: "Irish Twins" Searching the Internet for "Irish twins", I came across this one usage at http://haven.ios.com/~maryd/page/marydfam.html quote My family... I have two older brothers and one sister. My siblings are all married and have started families of their own. My sister Chris was born 13 days before my first birthday. We are Irish twins. (We actually are Irish - on both sides.) I have no memories at all from before she was born, and we shared a room until junior high. That's not quite twins, but you can't get much closer. end quote You might ask her at maryd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haven.ios.com why she used that phrase. -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:20:52 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given Thanks, Dennis, for your discourse on _brogue_. I dinna ken ye were an expert on that subject as well. I'll be in the front row in Las Vegas admiring your NWAVery. Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 16:19:28 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: etymology of FEIST Is Bernard Chien Perro known in some quarters as "Bernard-San"? Hai. Soo desu. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:26:58 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Salty Dog Don't know about the etymology, but the "salty dog" song and lines quoted are known to me from the repertoire of "Mississippi" John Hurt. Hurt was a Delta musician whose songs come more from the minstrel tradition than from just blues, and probably cover a much wider area than the Delta in their sources, but certainly predate bluegrass. Charles Wolfe and Kip Lornell, in their definitive book on Huddie Ledbetter (Leadbelly), connect the song to Pinetop Williams, an early influence on Ledbetter, who performed in turn-of-the-century Shreveport LA in Ledbetter's formative years (1902-4) as a pianist in the Fannin St. barrelhouses. I don't know of a Leadbelly recording of the tune, though. Just to beat it to death, there IS a reference to what might be nautical matters in the second verse: Little fish, big fish, swimmin in the water Old man can I marry your daughter? You salty dog! but that's stretching things a bit... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 17:37:45 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: "uptalk" Good points. I think there was just an effort in Cindie's work as in a lot of other people's to show that the "meaning" of a feature isn't necessarily (restricted to) some demographic category that applies to the speaker, in the earlier sense of "sociolinguistic markers", carelessly used. That doesn't mean that such factors are not relevant to social identity! Her diss. is a nice demonstration of a range of subtler functions and meanings such a feature can take on in a particular social context. It's also suggested that intonational contours differ from some other linguistic features in their potential for symbolic and iconic uses (eg from segmental variants like th/t, or syntactic ones like quotative "like"). --plp ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Sep 1996 to 20 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 93 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. wrong spelling of /graes/ 2. American Speech&rat race 3. Subliminal perception 4. "Irish Twins" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 10:25:10 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: wrong spelling of /graes/ Ron Butters: [...] Eric Hamp, where are you when we need you? (And is it true that your last name is cognate with CANNIBIS?) "CANN A BIS", please! This is what happens when you don't inhale! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:12:18 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: American Speech&rat race Maybe this is time for a reminder that you'll find a complete index to the first 60 years of _American Speech_, 1926-1985, at the ADS Web site, http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ The index was compiled by former editor John Algeo. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 12:12:22 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Subliminal perception This from the Chronicle of Higher Education's "Academe Today" 9/20/96: A glance at today's issue of "Science": When the motivational researcher James Vicary claimed in 1957 that he could persuade movie-theater patrons to buy more popcorn and soft drinks by flashing subliminal messages on the screen, he kindled scientific debates about whether such messages could influence human behavior. A new study led by Anthony G. Greenwald, a psychology professor at the University of Washington, found that Mr. Vicary was right in theory but not in practice. Dr. Greenwald and his colleagues asked subjects to identify nearly 500 "target" words as either male or female or pleasant or unpleasant. Every few seconds, one of the words was briefly flashed on a computer monitor. Just before each word flashed, the subjects were exposed to a "subliminal sandwich": a string of 15 consonants, a "priming" word, then another 15 consonants. In some cases, the priming and target words agreed, such as two female names, and in others they did not. When the subjects were obliged to classify the words in less than a second, the error rate sharply increased if the priming word disagreed with the target word. That result showed that the subjects were perceiving the priming words unconsciously, Dr. Greenwald found. The research, he said, also shows that Mr. Vicary's "eat popcorn" and "drink Coca-Cola" movie messages were a "hoax" because two-word messages were too complex to be deciphered by unconscious thought. (The journal may be found at your library or newsstand, or on line at http://www.sciencemag.org) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Sep 1996 11:24:13 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "Irish Twins" Volume III of DARE will have an entry for "Irish twin," defined as "One of two siblings born within a year of each other." Here are our citations: 1966 DARE File csWI, Irish twins--two children born within or in less than one year of each other in a family. (Heard from a doctor in Waunakee.) 1979 DARE File neNJ, They couldn't have children, so they adopted a foreign baby. Then, within a month of the adoption, she was pregnant. It was just like the Irish twins--you know, one was conceived right after the other was born. 1985 Greely _Happy Meek_ 194 neIL, Margaret and Wolfe Junior were Irish twins, born eleven months apart. 1990 DARE File ceWI, When I was a little girl--about 1920--I heard my Aunt Minnie refer to a neighbor's babies as "Irish twins." Because I wasn't quite sure of how long it took to have a baby, I was very interested to find out that, as Aunt Minnie explained "Irish twins" to me, you could have two babies within twelve months! Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Sep 1996 to 21 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 155 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "SALTY," "SWING," and "TRUCKING": Harlem words and phrases. 2. Book on cursing? (2) 3. "Irish Twins" 4. on brogue ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 00:16:27 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "SALTY," "SWING," and "TRUCKING": Harlem words and phrases. Roi Ottley wrote the column "Hectic Harlem" for the Amsterdam News in the 1930s. I urge everyone to check out the "Webster Abridged" column of 8 February 1936 in which many terms are defined, such as "hip," "gum shoe," "pitch a boogie woogie," "pull a bootsie," "chick," "pig meat," et al. For our recent discussion of "Salty," he defines this as "Sarcastic, supercilious, highbrow, as 'Don't jump salty.'" "Prissy" and "Hincty" were listed as the same. "The Macarena" might be the fad of this year, but his discussions on "swing" and "trucking" are instructive and well worth recording for dictionary usage. Here they are. SWING: Amsterdam News, 4 April 1936, pg. 13, col. 7. "Hot" Music Revived as "Swing" THE SWING MUSIC craze and its origin which has struck the ofay brethren and which has been the hot rhythms of the Harlem dance citizenry for many seasons, has Charles A. Lindbergh to thank for its return to popularity...Notthat the flyer is a dancer or musician, but his amazing exploits as an airman had profound effect upon the local inhabitants--and so goes dance or music in Harlem, so goes the ofay's interpretation. Great feats always cause the poets of a nation to sing praises...But no great poetry or prose came from America's throat to commemorate Lindbergh's spanning the Atlantic...White America merely rested in its rockin' chair and beamed with pride at the exploits of one of its sons. Black America, therefore, became poet-laureate and wrote across the Harlem dance floors, with a terpsichorean tap, a record of the flyer...That lifting dance, the Lindy Hop, was consciously originated by the Savoy Ballroom dancers, to commemorate the Lindbergh flight. The new dance, of course, needed a special type of rhythm which would best enable the lindy-hoppers to express the various figures of the dance...Some genius, therefore, obliged with "Ol' Nagi," which probably started the cycle of "swing" music...This number is the theme song of the lindy-hoppers...Dance music is more often geared to the dance. Considerable discussion has been going the rounds about the origination of the so-called "swing" music...The Savoy Ballroom was probably the first dance hall to feature this type of music in recent years...However, despite all the various viewpoints expressed, "swing" music remains merely "hot" music revived. Some ofay will surely come along and claim its origination. TRUCKING: Amsterdam News, 31 August 1935, pg. 11, col. 1. Who Originated the "Truck"? NOBLE SISSLE claims credit for originating the "Truck," the latest dance craze, that is rivalling the Charleston and the Lindy Hop in popularity...Ed Sullivan gives credit to the Cotton Club...Cora La Redd emphatically states she is the originator...Pigmeat Markham, the comedian, is among those who carries the torch of having first done the truck...This observer first saw the dance done down in Dickie Wells' Theatrical Grill by Rubberlegs Williams to the accompaniment of a Shim Sham Band...This was at least three years ago...But the dance was really first done in Philadelphia by Red and Struggle and Rubberlegs Williams and originated as a finale for a show...Its name is derived merely from the fact that Red of the Red and Struggle team emitted the cry of elation "truck" when he had seen the first steps done...It is an outgrowth of the "shuffle" which old-time waiters used to do when they carried heavy trays of food...Noble Sissle's claim is based on the fact that he titled a show at the Harlem Opera House in the winter "Trucking on Down" and wrote a song with the same title...The Cotton Club is trying to cash in as originators of this dance to fill the already depleted coffers...Ted Kohler, author of "Stormy Weather," has penned a truck number for the Cotton Club show with some familiar strains from the Noble Sissle number inserted in his work..However, when all the scramble is over W. C. Handy appears on the scene as the only man who will cash in on this number, as he recently published and has copyrighted a "Trucking on Down" number...On the reverse side of the music copy are illustrated instructions of the truck...If you journey down to the Old Colony (Lenox avenue, on 128th street) you can hear Fats Waller play some mellow "truck" music...We hope this concludes the "trucking on down" debate. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 11:32:18 -0400 From: "E. Wayles Browne" ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU Subject: Book on cursing? ![AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]#$%^&*+=A1=81=A3=A2=83=A7=B6*=AA=BA-=82! A colleague abroad hears that a study on curse words has just came out in the U.S. and asks for details. Does this ring a bell with any readers? Let me know at ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 14:49:16 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Irish Twins" Joan Hall lets us know . . . Volume III of DARE will have . . . &c &c But where can you get Volume III? Well, the September issue of the _Newsletter of the American Dialect Society_, now in production and due to be mailed around the end of the month, will tell you exactly how to get your own copy of Volume III (and Vols I and II if you missed them) - with a coupon for a special discount! Members of the American Dialect Society will get this newsletter by first-class mail as soon as it's ready. If you're not yet an ADS member - you can join by sending $30 for the calendar year ($15 for students) to American Dialect Society Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary MacMurray College English Department Jacksonville, Illinois 62650. I'll be glad to provide further information. - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 18:15:41 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: on brogue One more attestation on "brogue," Michael: My mother (b. 1906, Minnesota), and presumably her siblings and peers, used "brogue" regularly to refer to accent, most particularly (maybe exclusively--I can't recall) to the Norwegian American English common in much of Minnesota. Thus, "She really has the brogue," or "He can't talk the brogue." In fact, I believe I thought it was a generic term for accent (or dialect) until adulthood, when I picked up on the Irish connection. Beverly Olson Flanigan (hence my interest!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Sep 1996 22:42:45 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Book on cursing? A colleague abroad hears that a study on curse words has just came out in the U.S. and asks for details. Does this ring a bell with any readers? Let me know at ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu The only book treating "curse words" as a broad subject that has just come out is _Blue Streak,_ by Richard Dooling (Random House). It's not a scholarly work, and it's not terribly good. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Sep 1996 to 22 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 13 messages totalling 338 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. English as she is written 2. Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (2) 3. Book on cursing? 4. RE Re: Book on cursing? 5. usage newsletter 6. No subject given 7. RE f-word (3) 8. f-word 9. The Missed Allusion (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 00:22:03 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: English as she is written This was forwarded to me and I thought y'all might like it too. Rima ENGLISH IS TOO COMPLICATED Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between Government departments. European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult - for example, cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations. In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter. There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it kould be announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptive to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o kould be dropd from words kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud fin it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of ze Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:19:08 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Oxford Dictionary of Quotations One of my colleagues went to a Web site to view the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, but all he got was an advertisement. Does anyone know of a Web site where he could actually use this dictionary? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 09:33:59 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Book on cursing? Some other fairly new works, depending on your definition of "just come out", are: Allen, Keith & Kate Burridge (1991) Euphemism and Dysphemism Aman, Reinhold (1994) Talking Dirty Hughes, Geoffrey (1991) Swearing: A Social History... Jay, Timothy (1992) Cursing in America In addition, Aman (the man from Maledicta) has just come out (on any definition since the publication date is 1996) with a new book, Opus Maledictorum: A Book of Bad Words. I haven't seen that one yet, but the ones above may be useful for your purposes. --Larry Horn ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- A colleague abroad hears that a study on curse words has just came out in the U.S. and asks for details. Does this ring a bell with any readers? Let me know at ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu The only book treating "curse words" as a broad subject that has just come out is _Blue Streak,_ by Richard Dooling (Random House). It's not a scholarly work, and it's not terribly good. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 11:26:32 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Book on cursing? There was also the book "The F-Word" which contains all the various uses and forms of the word "fuck". It was released last year, and I still see it in various bookstores. Check your Books in Print. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com My favorite use: guaran-fuckin-teed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 10:51:23 -0500 From: Alan R Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: usage newsletter I am again appealing for submissions to the Usage Newsletter, which Chuck Meyers and I are hoping will become a regular function of the Committee on Usage. If you have a short piece you'd like to submit, please do so to the address below: short articles, notes, queries, announcements of books, etc., are entirely welcome. Thanks. Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan R. Slotkin Professor of English Box 5053 Tennessee Technological University Cookeville, TN 38505 Phone: 615-372-3262 FAX: 615-372-6142 e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 15:29:46 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: No subject given There was also the book "The F-Word" which contains all the various uses and forms of the word "fuck". It was released last year, and I still see it in various bookstores. Check your Books in Print. Grant Barrett ...a book the existence of which modesty evidently prevented Jesse Sheidlower from acknowledging in his response to the original query. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 16:39:46 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE f-word Please accept my apologies. I sometimes forget that what is common parlance among New York twenty-somethings in advertising, journalism and fashion may not fly elswwhere. Last time I forgot I was at a family reunion in Missouri with my born-again cousins. Apparently The Lord didn't use the f-word. Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- From: Larry Horn There was also the book "The F-Word" which contains all the various uses and forms of the word "fuck". It was released last year, and I still see it in various bookstores. Check your Books in Print. Grant Barrett ...a book the existence of which modesty evidently prevented Jesse Sheidlower from acknowledging in his response to the original query. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 14:42:41 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: RE f-word Huh? Did I miss a message or something? You mean somebody objected? After all the various f-words that flew fast and furiously to and fro on this list last week? Censorship would be a new development on this list. I'd hate to see creep into a forum that devotes most of its time, and considerable wit and erudition, to the discussion of words. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR On Mon, 23 Sep 1996, Grant Barrett wrote: Please accept my apologies. I sometimes forget that what is common parlance among New York twenty-somethings in advertising, journalism and fashion may not fly elswwhere. Last time I forgot I was at a family reunion in Missouri with my born-again cousins. Apparently The Lord didn't use the f-word. Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- From: Larry Horn There was also the book "The F-Word" which contains all the various uses and forms of the word "fuck". It was released last year, and I still see it in various bookstores. Check your Books in Print. Grant Barrett ...a book the existence of which modesty evidently prevented Jesse Sheidlower from acknowledging in his response to the original query. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:26:02 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: RE f-word Huh? Did I miss a message or something? Just an allusion. [snippings] ...a book the existence of which modesty evidently prevented Jesse Sheidlower from acknowledging in his response to the original query. --Larry X-within-URL: http://wfmu.org/Catalog/Items/c20404B.html THE F WORD, ED. JESSE SHEIDLOWER The F Word Jesse Sheidlower You haven't heard it on the air, now read the book! Here, in one convenient, comprehensive volume, is the complete story of the word still considered the most vulgar utterance in the English language. It's the word that landed Lenny Bruce in the slammer, the one syllable expletive that Nixon so often deleted, the verboten syllable that's gotten many an FMU DJ thrown off the air! Organized like a dictionary, The F Word examines all the usages and permutations of "fuck," from the diaries of World War I soldiers to the internet, complete with examples and citations for each! Learn what FUBIO stands for! Learn the derivation of "going bugfuck crazy!" You'll never fuck up "fuck" again! 230 pages, paperback from Random House. _________________________________________________________________ ORDERING INFORMATION: Here's the info to enter into the order form! Item #20404B, "The F Word, ed. Jesse Sheidlower BOOK," Price: $12 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:17:22 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Re: f-word That wasn't a complaint from Larry Horn? I must have had my nuance filter turned on. [It's been a rotten day in all regards. Headache, rudeness on the other end of the phone, new shoes, the pursuit of an unpursuable woman... I'm sure I'll get stuck in the subway for three hours with smelly vagrants or something.] Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:08:04 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: The Missed Allusion I think I replied to the wrong note, thus accusing the wrong person of missing the allusion. (I interrupted my mail reading to run around the web in search of a blurb on Jesse's book.) Anyway, the point is that nobody that I'm aware of was suggesting any kind of censorship. If Larry was complaining, it was a complaint against Jesse's modesty (i.e., the opposite of blowing your own horn) in not promoting his own book on the list. Speaking of books my ADSers, I haven't totally forgotten the idea that we discussed last summer of having announcements/reviews/whatevers of new books in the web pages. The problem is that this is a bad time to start something new in our pages unless somebody is willing to take over the pages while I'm in Japan for a year (starting next April). The online costs I'm going to have there and the slow editing of web pages in Mississippi via telnet from Tokyo will make it impossible for me to keep the pages up to date. More on that later... --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 18:12:35 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: The Missed Allusion Speaking of books my ADSers, I haven't totally forgotten the idea that That's supposed to say "by ADSers." It wasn't intended as a cutsey possessive address term. :-) Apologies to those of you who don't like smileys. Sometimes they just seem to belong in something. Like in this note. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) probably not making sense -- it's been a long Monday ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:06:47 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Oxford Dictionary of Quotations Barlett's is available on CD-ROM. I bought it and have enjoyed using it. . . But then this is neither the title nor the media in which you're interested. . . Danny Long Wayne Glowka wrote: One of my colleagues went to a Web site to view the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, but all he got was an advertisement. Does anyone know of a Web site where he could actually use this dictionary? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Sep 1996 to 23 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 19 messages totalling 507 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Missed Allusion 2. TWO-FERS: an antedate 3. Telnet from Japan (was Re: The Missed Allusion) 4. No subject given 5. Can you tell me how to access 6. "Grip the Rat" (2) 7. Chinese Fire Drill (7) 8. "Grip the Rat" -Reply 9. Chinese Fire Drill -Reply 10. Dialects that could have been (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 11:01:15 +0800 From: Russ McClay mcclay[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PROQC.COM.TW Subject: Re: The Missed Allusion Natalie -- Speaking of books my ADSers, I haven't totally forgotten the idea that we discussed last summer of having announcements/reviews/whatevers of new books in the web pages. The problem is that this is a bad time to start something new in our pages unless somebody is willing to take over the pages while I'm in Japan for a year (starting next April). The online costs I'm going to have there and the slow editing of web pages in Mississippi via telnet from Tokyo will make it impossible for me to keep the pages up to date. More on that later... FWIW, I live here in Taipei, Taiwan, and just spent a month in California. Via a $5 intro account (Netcom) I was able to work on all our html pages remotely. Though slow, it was workable. I was using a 14.4K modem and a notebook. Granted the cost of a net account in Japan may be higher than the states, I believe you would only be paying for the time connected to a local ISP. In addition to html I was also maintaining our Unix and NT servers via telnet. The way I did html was just download the html via ftp, edit, ftp back. Russ -- m c c l a y ................................................................... mcclay[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]proqc.com.tw http://www.proqc.com/~mcclay/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 03:31:58 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: TWO-FERS: an antedate This antedate was supposed to appear as the Yankees cut their magic number to two; they lost and it's still at three. Oh, well! If I ever get my papers together, you'll see "The Naming of the New York Yankees" and "The Naming of the Grand Old Man (G.O.M.) and the Grand Old Party (G.O.P.)" in the next few weeks. "TWO-FERS" did not originate in the theatre. The Dictionary of Americanisms (pg. 1789) has 1892 as the first citation. This comes from the New York Dispatch, 22 March 1885, pg. 5, col. 2: TWO-FER-FIVE--GUS STOPPELKAM has had great success with his "Twofers" at his new cigar store at No. 240 Grand street. "Twofers" is the name applied facetiously to Gus's workingman's favorite. They are cigars that are sold at two for five cents, and the run on them has been so great that the multitude of purchasers have discarded the long name by which they are properly known, and adopted the more familiar and affectionate appellation of "Twofers." Gus has just purchased another instalment of a few hundred thousands of these favorite "Twofers." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 06:11:00 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Telnet from Japan (was Re: The Missed Allusion) FWIW, I live here in Taipei, Taiwan, and just spent a month in California. Via a $5 intro account (Netcom) I was able to work on all our html pages remotely. Though slow, it was workable. I was using a 14.4K modem and The speed of telnet connections depends on more than just the distance, of course. I've often worked on things here in Mississippi via telnet from places pretty far away (e.g., Canada) and found it much faster than it is when I telnet through a local ISP at night because of not being able to get through the MSU busy signals. (But I pay a flat rate for the ISP -- no worry about how long I'm online.) My experiences in telnetting here from Asia (Hong Kong and Singapore) have been horribly slow, though. I remember finding it impossibly slow simply to read and answer e-mail from Hong Kong and thus ftp'ing all my mail to a local machine there, writing replies on it, and then either sending directly from that machine or ftp'ing the files back to here. a notebook. Granted the cost of a net account in Japan may be higher than the states, I believe you would only be paying for the time connected to a local ISP. The telephone costs in Tokyo are quite high, according to my colleagues who have worked there. These people aren't nearly as active in net life as I am but have still spent fortunes on the phone bills. Even local calls cost by the minute there, and the ISPs they've used all seem to have "local" numbers in some different part of Tokyo that jacks the telephone costs up even higher. I'm hoping that maybe Meisei University's net presence will improve by the time I get there and that I will perhaps have decent net access from the campus. (It has occurred to me that I might be able to barter with them for net privileges in exchange for my help with the English version of their web pages -- which look pretty bad right now.) But even if I have campus access, I won't be able to stay on top of ADS web pages the way I do now. I manually create the list archives every morning for gopher, ftp, and the web (something that I can almost certainly get automated via a perl script before leaving, however). And I add to the web pages of job ads and calls for papers at least several times a week. The editing and placing of those files takes enough time that I would be going broke if paying by the minute. I didn't mean to write this much. I have a bad habit of being too loquacious in early-morning e-mail. Sometime soon I'll send another posting with some thoughts on plans for ADS-L and the web/ftp/gopher pages for next year. ADS-L runs itself for the most part, but I do get at least a few requests most weeks for help with subscriptions and do have to deal with list mail that bounces for one reason or another. If somebody had an address problem next year while I was on a break in China or Thailand or somewhere, my account could get stuffed with error messages to the point of becoming unusable. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 13:48:17 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: No subject given As Natalie intuited, it was the farthest thing from my mind when I wrote the note below (following Grant's response) to advocate Webster's modesty-2 ("pro- priety in dress, speech, or conduct") or, heaven forfend, to accuse Jesse of advocating it. I'm sure neither of us would ever advocate anything of the sort. What I was belaboring Jesse with was modesty-1 ("freedom from conceit or vanity", or in this case, self-promotion). ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Please accept my apologies. I sometimes forget that what is common parlance among New York twenty-somethings in advertising, journalism and fashion may not fly elswwhere. Last time I forgot I was at a family reunion in Missouri with my born-again cousins. Apparently The Lord didn't use the f-word. Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- From: Larry Horn There was also the book "The F-Word" which contains all the various uses and forms of the word "fuck". It was released last year, and I still see it in various bookstores. Check your Books in Print. Grant Barrett ...a book the existence of which modesty evidently prevented Jesse Sheidlower from acknowledging in his response to the original query. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:13:00 EST From: "S.D. Finler" SDF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DPS.STATE.NY.US Subject: Can you tell me how to access ** Orig: 09/24/96 2:40 pm ** ** SDF: S. Finler ** Can you tell me how to access the American Dialect Society's bulletin board (as described by William Safire in the NY Times of 9/15?) I am very interested in these language matters. Thank you. ** Forwd: 09/24/96 3:13 pm ** ** SDF: S. Finler ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:26:10 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "Grip the Rat" Does anyone know the history of the story of "Grip the Rat," from its earliest British form, through its use in the series of Columbia U. phonograph recordings, and its use by other linguists? Thanks. Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:30:35 -0500 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU Subject: Chinese Fire Drill Does anyone know the origin of this phrase? Act now, and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you settled an office debate. :) Kathleen M. O'Neill Supervisor, UIC Language Laboratory kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:30:19 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: "Grip the Rat" -Reply And I thought this was going to be another thread like "suck the monkey"... Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:44:04 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill Does anyone know the origin of this phrase? Act now, and you'll have the satisfaction of knowing that you settled an office debate. :) Kathleen M. O'Neill Supervisor, UIC Language Laboratory kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu I don't know the origin, but I participated in at least one such drill in high school at a red light in San Antonio, Texas, in the late '60's. I laughed so hard I nearly cried. I often threaten my wife with doing one every now and then, much to her horror. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:49:48 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill DARE I has two senses of Chinese fire drill: 1. A scene of great confusion; a chaotic situation. Earliest quotation is from 1961. 2. A college prank in which students jump out of a car as it is stopped at a stoplight, run around the car, and jump back in as the light turns green. Earliest quotation 1976, reminiscing about the early 1960s. Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:03:06 -0500 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill Joan Houston Hall spake thusly: DARE I has two senses of Chinese fire drill: snipped These are great. Thanks! But does anyone have any info on how it came to be named as such? Any historical info? The "scene of great confusion" is helpful, but how the phrase came to be used that way. Thanks, everyone! Kathleen M. O'Neill Supervisor, UIC Language Laboratory kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:06:02 -0500 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill Wayne Glowka spake thusly: I don't know the origin, but I participated in at least one such drill in high school at a red light in San Antonio, Texas, in the late '60's. I laughed so hard I nearly cried. I often threaten my wife with doing one every now and then, much to her horror. My assistant and I were discussing this event when a couple of our Chinese student workers began asking where the expression came from. That pretty much stumped us, so we started digging in vain through all sorts of references, and it began a painfully long discussion here. :) So I'm just trying to settle this once and for all. =^] Kathleen M. O'Neill Supervisor, UIC Language Laboratory kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:07:38 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "Grip the Rat" --- On Tue, 24 Sep 1996 14:26:10 -0600 Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU wrote: Does anyone know the history of the story of "Grip the Rat," from its earliest British form, through its use in the series of Columbia U. phonograph recordings, and its use by other linguists? I think I'll just bite my tongue on this one. ------------------------------------- Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 16:26:56 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill DARE I has two senses of Chinese fire drill: 1. A scene of great confusion; a chaotic situation. Earliest quotation is from 1961. 2. A college prank in which students jump out of a car as it is stopped at a stoplight, run around the car, and jump back in as the light turns green. Earliest quotation 1976, reminiscing about the early 1960s. Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Howdy, Ms. Hall! It may be that time is playing tricks with this old thunder lizard's memory, but I am almost positive that I not only heard but also used the expression, "rushin' around like a Chinese fire drill" while serving with the U.S. Navy in the Pacific Theater, during WWII. Does anyone else recall its usage during the 40's war years? I should like to believe that my recollection is accurate. smjones ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 17:00:05 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill Does anyone know the origin of this phrase? The Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang has an entry for this phrase. The first definition is 'a state or example of utter confusion', from 1952, and the second is for the student prank of madly switching places in a car (we don't supply a definition directly, but refer to one of the cites), from 1972 but with two cites from DARE referring to the early 1960s and the early 1940s. There are a number of related earlier expressions with _Chinese_ meaning broadly 'inferior; clumsy'. The most common of these seems to be _Chinese landing,_ which is suggested by the phrase "one wing low," presumed to resemble a Chinese phrase or name. I assume that _Chinese fire drill_ is an extension of these uses. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 18:58:06 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill -Reply I didn't know about the "prank" meaning, just the "scene of great confusion". I've always thought that "Chinese" in this referred to incomprehensibility and differentness, as in Chinese checkers -- played with single moves and jumps, like "ordinary" checkers, but on a star-shaped, hexagonal grid (not a square one) and by up to six players (not just 2) Chinese counting -- children's name for various series of counting-out words, of the same type as "eenie, meenie, minie, moe" Chinesed type (sic: the verb is "to Chinese") -- ordinary printed English text, turned upside-down (rotated 180 degrees on the page) to provide blocks of pseudo-text that look like text in overall impression; used for mockups of ads, presentations, and so on. A sidelight: In her Chanur trilogy, the sf author C.J.Cherryh invents an alien race called chi: methane-breathers whose thought processes and behavior (including fast, chaotic, nonlinear locomotion) are incomprehensible to oxygen-breathers like us, but who nevertheless are one of seven species engaged in trade on the space station Meetpoint. At one point a character likens a confused scene to "chi in a fire drill". I read it, read on... halt. Double-take. WHAT was that? Auughhhh! Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 20:51:59 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Dialects that could have been Has there been any printed speculation on how American dialects might've developed if history had gone differently? Easy example -- the western Canadian accent is said to have originated with Loyalists who settled around Niagara Falls. (Or has someone come out with a definitive article refuting this?) If the Revolution had failed, Canadian English would have developed differently. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 22:39:57 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Dialects that could have been Sure is packed in there tightly, as information goes, is it not? I suppose there's not much choice with the word counter in effect. I'm always afraid this sort of exercise loses the uninitiated, while it's pointless for the well-informed. But then I remember there's folks in the middle, or those who may need pointers. [time out--I have "Relativity" on in the background, you know, the pilot for the new Zwick/Herskovitz show, successor to 30-something and MSCL, and the guy says to the woman (who has another fiance'), "If I'm not mistaken, you just told me you can't tell me you don't love me. I'm sorry -- I'm confused, it must be the double negatives..." Remember, these are the folks who brought us "Is he a FRIEND friend, or a \\FRIEND// friend?"] Anyway, it looks fine (the informatics; I'm uncommitted on Relativity yet). Mind, I wouldn't object to a small mention of a little CLS parasession paper on some of this stuff published in '86 or thereabouts, but I suppose I can't (or shouldn't) insist... Speaking of bibliography, though, would you say that Halliday 1967 is a direct link to Lambrecht, or just an earlier mention of the term "information structure"? I somehow don't see Lambrecht as in Halliday's tradition, but I could be wrong (and I don't have the book on me). If not, Halliday can maybe just be added to the "Other approaches" sentence at the end, and I'd want Kuno 1972 in there too, and maybe a direct mention of functional sentence perspective (with Firbas cited there along with Kuno). What do you think? And should we throw Givon a bone (no rhyme intended)? L ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 23:46:38 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Dialects that could have been Akkk. Please ignore. I seem to have misdialed. Larry (the one with the red face) --Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Sep 1996 to 24 Sep 1996 ************************************************ Topics of the day: 1. English as she is written 2. Dialects that could have been -Reply (3) 3. No subject given (3) 4. Chinese Fire Drill -Reply (2) 5. "New" languages in former Yugoslavia (fwd) 6. your mail 7. Gullah Bible (was: your mail) 8. Chinese Fire Drill 9. UNSUBSCRIBE 10. Spelling Amnesty 11. Gullah Bible ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:21:00 -0400 From: Trey Jones TJones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DATAWARE.COM Subject: Re: English as she is written I've seen this humorous piece about the EEC floating around the internet. However, it appears that Mark Twain did it first, and IMHO, better. Enjoy. -Trey ---------------------- A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling by Mark Twain For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all. Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli. Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld. ---------- From: Kim & Rima McKinzey To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: English as she is written Date: Monday, September 23, 1996 3:22AM This was forwarded to me and I thought y'all might like it too. Rima ENGLISH IS TOO COMPLICATED Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European Parliament has commissioned a feasibility study in ways of improving efficiency in communications between Government departments. European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is unnecessarily difficult - for example, cough, plough, rough, through and thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a committee staff at top level by participating nations. In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's' instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sities would resieve this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter. There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it kould be announsed that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'. This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print. In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to reash the stage where more komplikated shanges are possible. Governments would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a deterent to akurate speling. We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is disgrasful. Therefor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and peopl would be reseptive to steps sutsh as replasing 'th' by 'z'. Perhaps zen ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'. Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o kould be dropd from words kontaining 'ou'. Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters. Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vud eventuli hav a reli sensibl riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no mor trubls, difikultis and evrivun vud fin it ezi tu understand ech ozer. Ze drems of ze Guvermnt vud finali hav kum tru. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:17:50 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Dialects that could have been -Reply Wow... an intersection of two of my favorite subjects, linguistics and sf. But all I can think of offhand is, hmm, in _The Man Who Folded Himself_ (time travel and changing history): when our protagonist prevented the origin of Christianity and came back to his home place-time, he found that not only was society enormously different, but he couldn't understand anyone, because of the huge cumulative changes in nearly 2000 years' worth of history due to the presence or absence of Christianity. Lots of authors have invented languages, of course (almost all of them really just fragments intended to give the impression of a language, and usually badly designed); but that's another whole thread, or list. There are a few future Englishes, some of them mere extremes of slang, vulgarity, and/or casual pronunciation. This take on the field is new to me. I'll keep the search churning in background. Anyone else? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:49:48 -0500 From: Kimberly Thompson krt3638[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GRIFFON.MWSC.EDU Subject: No subject given I wondered if anyone out there knows if the translation of the bible into Gullah was ever completed and, if so, where I might find or be able to order it. Many Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:04:06 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill -Reply Another : Chinese three-point landing = a crash, perhaps not a reflection on asian aviation but the folk sense that if you dig straight down you get to China . . . . So here's another question for you New Yorkers: is Chinese handball (wherein you hit the ball down first, rather than straight at the wall, as in American handball), which is the kind of handball we played as kids in Queens in the early 1950s, a reference to the same digging down to China? Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:27:25 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Dialects that could have been -Reply I sometimes ask this kind of question on my HEL exams. Knowing what you do about language history, variation, and change, what might have happened if a. The Normans had lost at Hastings? b. The war of independence had failed? I also sometimes ask, "Based on what you know about the history of our language, what might English be like 100 years from now?" Of course I prompt students to give examples, state general principles, show off what they know. I often get good results, and the students seem to have fun with this type of exercise. I can imagine other questions of this kind: c. What if English had been successfully purged of all foreign borrowings? d. What if the Normans had immigrated in droves to England? e. What if the South had won the war, y'all? Or the Germans, for that matter? Or the Mexicans? and so on. Any others? Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 09:25:49 -0700 From: Sylvia Swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: "New" languages in former Yugoslavia (fwd) this was forwarded from linguist to seelangs, and i thought it might be of interest to our list as well. sylvia swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:32:02 PDT CSM / BY: Colin Woodard ZAGREB, CROATIA -- When she returns to her native Zagreb, Olinka Gjigas doesn't have to tell people she's been living abroad for the past three years. They can tell as soon as she starts to speak. ``Each time I visit, more words have been changed or added to our language,'' says Ms. Gjigas, who works in neighboring Hungary and returns only a few times a year to visit her family. ``I try to catch on to the new way of speaking, but people know immediately that I haven't been living here. At first it seemed funny, even ridiculous. But when a vegetable seller snubbed my mother in the market because she used an 'old' word, I just couldn't believe it.'' The fighting may be over, but the successor states of Yugoslavia are waging new wars over words. Like Yugoslavia itself, the Serbo-Croatian language is breaking apart, ending a tumultuous century-old marriage of a half-dozen south Slavic dialects. Croats and Bosnians are rewriting dictionaries and grammar books to emphasize the distinctiveness of their languages and, therefore, their nations. But many people find themselves caught in the crossfire. Bosnians are reviving Arabic, Turkish, and Persian words from the 19th century. Croatians are replacing words deemed foreign with both new and old terms - all in an effort to reverse decades of alleged ``Serbianization'' of their language. Croatia has been most aggressive, encouraging teachers to accept only new words as correct on student exams. Extremist parliamentarians even launched a failed attempt to criminalize the use of ``words of foreign origin.'' Requesting bread with the ``Serbian'' hleb rather than the Croatian kruh elicits scowls in Zagreb grocery stores, while waiters become surly if an ``unpatriotic'' construction is used. And as the country's state-run schools, television, and publishing houses push new words and phrases it's becoming easier than ever to tell who is Croatian and who is not. ``The whole point is to create new differences between Croatia and (Serb-dominated rump) Yugoslavia so that communication between the two is more complicated and the idea of separate identities strengthened,'' says historian Ivo Banac. ``There's no basis for this campaign in Croatia. Our identity is very strong, and the idea of the Serbian language somehow threatening it is preposterous.'' Preposterous or not, Croatian authorities are aggressively ``purifying'' their country's language by substituting words deemed to be foreign with Croatian words. New words are either newly invented or borrowed from medieval and baroque Croatian literature. ``It's as if they were trying to purify English by removing all the words of French origin and reintroducing words from Beowulf (the 8th-century epic poem),'' says Victor Friedman of the University of Chicago's Slavic Languages Department. ``They're not just trying to turn back the clock but inventing a clock that never existed.'' The creation of new national languages is causing great confusion, because Serbo-Croatian dialects are based on geography, not ethnicity. ``In any given village the people are all going to speak the same dialect, whether they are Serbs, Croats, or Muslims,'' says Dr. Friedman. Serbs from western Herzegovina or the Krajina region of Croatia, for example, spoke the same dialect as their Croat and Muslim neighbors. Now that this dialect has been dubbed ``Croatian,'' the Serbs are under considerable pressure to prove their identities by adopting the Belgrade-standard, a dialect unfamiliar to them. Before being pushed out by an August 1995 Croatian offensive, Krajina Serb radio announcers in the town of Knin could be heard stumbling over the new ``Serbian'' words and pronunciation in their broadcasts. Even Croatian President Franjo Tudjman gets confused. During US President Clinton's visit here earlier this year, President Tudjman accidentally used the ``Serbian'' word for ``happy,'' srecan, instead of the ``Croatian'' sretan, during a live speech. His error was edited out of later broadcasts on state television, but opposition press had a field day. Another problem with the Croatian reforms is that only a handful of professional linguists actually knows which words are truly Croatian and which are foreign borrowings. Amateur reformers in the state bureaucracy reject one Serbo-Croatian word for ``one thousand'' - hiljada - in favor of another, tisuca. Hiljada was favored by the Communist authorities who ran the former Yugoslavia, and thus is regarded as ``Serbian'' by amateur reformers. ``It's ironic because hiljada is actually a very old Croatian word, perhaps more authentic than tisuca,'' says Ivan Supek, president of the Croatian Academy of Sciences. The reforms will continue to have difficulties. ``We don't even have a Croatian dictionary yet,'' says University of Zagreb linguist Bulcsu Laszlo. ``How can the poor primary school teachers teach their pupils the 'correct' way to speak? They don't even know it themselves.'' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:00:58 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill -Reply In response to Dennis B's query, I distinctly recall playing a lot of Chinese handball as well as (regular, default) handball, but I never made the connec- tion between the name and the conceit of burrowing through the center of the earth to reach China (the way we always tried to do on the beach). Of course, that doesn't mean this metaphor wasn't the source of the name. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:32:42 -0400 From: "Alfred F. Rosa" arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: your mail Re: Kimberly Thompson's request for information on the translation of the Bible into Gullah. One place to look if it has been published, and a wonderful reference it is too, is www.amazon.com. They list over a million titles that can be searched by title, author, and subject, as well as key words. m ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^ Professor Alfred Rosa || Department of English || P.O. Box 54030 || University of Vermont || "The limits of my language Burlington, VT 05405-0114 || mean the limits of my Telephone: 802-656-4139 || world." Fax: 802-656-3055 || e-mail: arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu || --Ludwig Wittgenstein Prodigy: kgdx32a || AOL: Sassari || On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, Kimberly Thompson wrote: I wondered if anyone out there knows if the translation of the bible into Gullah was ever completed and, if so, where I might find or be able to order it. Many Thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 14:54:58 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Gullah Bible (was: your mail) If anyone can help in this search, the American Bible Society should be able to. I searched by Alta Vista Advanced Search for the phrase "American Library" in the titles of Web pages. There were 7 hits, of which this one is what I was looking for (though I expected them to have a site of their own; maybe I just didn't search the right way). The URL of the page I copied this text from is http://metro.org/members/3.html I have trimmed the text down; see the URL for full details. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ---------------------------------- METRO MEMBER LIBRARY American Bible Society Department of Library, Archives and Institutional Research 1865 Broadway New York, NY 10023 Information/Hours: 212-408-1203/4 Reference: 212-408-1203/4 Catalog Information: 212-408-1297 Fax: 212-408-1512 E-Mail: abs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]metgate.metro.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:08:46 -0400 From: Joe Claro Joeclaro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill Although I have no doubt that the earliest quotation of "Chinese fire drill" is from 1961, that doesn't date the phrase accurately. We used it as teenagers hanging around the candy store in the middle 50s. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 15:16:28 -0400 From: Joe Claro Joeclaro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE UNSCRIBE JOECLARO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 19:30:57 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Spelling Amnesty Here's something I found interesting from another list: Girl Scout trainers around here claim "spelling amnesty"... if we have to write something on a chalk board or newsprint flipchart in front of a room full of people, we are not accountable for misspellings. I like it. The author lives in Tennessee. Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 18:50:13 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: No subject given I wondered if anyone out there knows if the translation of the bible into Gullah was ever completed and, if so, where I might find or be able to order it. Many Thanks! I have a copy of DE GOOD NYEWS BOUT JEDUS CHRIST WA LUKE WRITE 'The Gospel according to Luke', published by the American Bible Society, New York. I received mine as a promotional copy. I have no idea how much it costs. To my knowledge this is the only part of the Bible that has been completed in translation. Best, Sali. ***************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX 312-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 ***************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 20:04:38 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given The translation of the Gospel of Luke into Sea Island Creole is the only part of Scripture so far published (by the American Bible Society, the cost of which, as I recall, is one dollar plus postage). The Sea Island Translation has been working for years on other portions of the New Tes- tament, I understand, and it will not be too much longer before all is finished. (Each verse must pass a fairly rigorous approval process by native speakers.) This is the word I had as of about a year ago. I purchased my copy by calling the ABS in New York City and giving them a credit card number. Two copies for something like $2.70. Hope this helps, Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 10:47:39 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Dialects that could have been -Reply e. What if the South had won the war, y'all?One possible consequence is that our neighbors north of the border in the "United States" might take a serious enough interest in our language (in the south) to realize that we don't (and one grammatically can not) use "y'all" in a singular case, such as on a written exam where the teacher-sender can only be construed as talking to one student-receiver at a time. If I were a student and my LINGUISTICS teacher made this kind of a grammatical booboo, THAT'S what I'd write on my exam. Pro'ly fail though. Danny "barefoot and pregnant" Long ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 11:06:42 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Gullah Bible Kimberly Thompson wrote: I wondered if anyone out there knows if the translation of the bible into Gullah was ever completed and, if so, where I might find or be able to order it. Many Thanks!Here are some sights on the net you find helpful. I have been trying to find out the differences in the various search engines recently. I rely on the net a lot for various research things. I found these with "excite". http://www.excite.com/ Incidentally, I found nothing of any use with several of the other engines I tried first. 84% y'all:sofried:Gullah writing [More Like This] URL: http://www.yall.com/sofried/samp.htm Summary: . The American Bible Society offered this sample of the gospel of Luke, from Luke 6:20 in "De Good Nyews Bout Jedus Christ Wa Luke Write." Gullah: "Jedus look at e iple dem an tell um say, "oona bless fat ture, oona, po people. 83% African Cultural Survivals (Holloway Videos) [More Like This] URL: http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Library/Africanisms.html Summary: Note: Begins with view of one of the Sea Islands without narration; followed by an interview with Leroy Brown. Greene, project director for Sea Island Bible Translation Team, talks about importance of translating the bible as well as Africanisms in the Gullah heritage. 82% Untitled [More Like This] URL: http://www.sefl.com/~covenant/msharpe.htm Summary: Their work falls under the auspices of MNA as well, because strong indigenous churches are expected to arise from the Bible studies, conversions and fellowship which are already resulting as portions of the New Testament have become available in Gullah. Some surprising facts: -250,000 Sea Islanders along the coast of N. Carolina, S. Carolina, Georgia and Florida speak the Gullah (Sea island. 82% African Cultural Survivals (Holloway Videos) [More Like This] URL: http://www.library.cornell.edu/africana/Library/Africanisms.html Summary: Afr Video 233 v.3, Pt.1 Oyotunji Interviews; Chief Alagba on New World Africanisms. Afr Video 233 v.3, Pt.2 Interview with Claude and Pat Sharpe on Gullah Translation of the Bible; Coffin Point Grave yard; Ron Daise on Oral History/Folklore--Part 1. Afr Video 233 v.4 Interview with Claude and Pat Sharpe; Gullah Language and Culture--Part 2. Afr Video 233 v.5 Africanisms--Coiled Baskets;. 81% English creole links [More Like This] URL: http://www.ling.su.se/creole/links-eng.html Summary: With appropriate software, you can hear samples of spoken Jamaican at this site. Chinese Pidgin English Hawaii Bislama Australian Kriol Solomon Islands Tok Pisin Torres Strait Creole. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Sep 1996 to 25 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 8 messages totalling 140 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Redface 2. singular y'all (6) 3. Irish Twin ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 12:23:14 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Redface And I thought it was poetry! In fact, a Lacanian reading turns up some VERY interesting stuff. You should send this to that Duke Univesity Press journal that publishes articles on, like, the transformative hermeneutics of quantum gravity. And I'll send my deconstruction. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 15:48:29 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: singular y'all there are serious linguists (e.g., Jan Tillery and Guy Bailey) who maintain that singular y'all is found in the South (if you count Oklahoma). Look forward to an article about their research in a forthcoming issue of American Speech. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 16:57:15 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all there are serious linguists (e.g., Jan Tillery and Guy Bailey) who maintain that singular y'all is found in the South (if you count Oklahoma). Look I don't count Oklahoma, but Jan and Guy also have data from other places (a survey of Memphis business people and data from the Southern Focus Poll). HOWEVER... last I heard these were all self-reports, not actual tokens. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 18:43:12 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Irish Twin There is a book--THE IRISH TWINS by Lucy Fitch Perkins, Houghton Mifflin Co. (Boston and New York), 1913. However, the Irish Twins are not "Irish twins." This may mean that the phrase did not exist at this time. Pg. 11: "How old are you at all?" "We're seven," said the Twins. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:26:17 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: singular y'all I know that the singular ya'll is in the south. But usually the very southern tend to use it more than most. I just use the plural form .. spelled the same , of course. Tender ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:57:34 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all As a native Okie, I must object to being left out of the count. After all, not all the South is "deep South." On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Natalie Maynor wrote: there are serious linguists (e.g., Jan Tillery and Guy Bailey) who maintain that singular y'all is found in the South (if you count Oklahoma). Look I don't count Oklahoma, but Jan and Guy also have data from other places (a survey of Memphis business people and data from the Southern Focus Poll). HOWEVER... last I heard these were all self-reports, not actual tokens. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 20:15:50 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all As a native Okie, I must object to being left out of the count. After all, not all the South is "deep South." Probably I shouldn't say I don't count Oklahoma at all. I count it as sort of an interesting peripheral area... In your Oklahoma experiences, have you ever heard a singular "y'all," Jeutonne? Like a biologist friend who keeps chasing some kind of elusive woodpecker without luck, I've been searching for a singular "y'all" for a good while now. No luck so far. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) 53 years in the South, most of them in the Real South, and no encounter yet with singular "y'all" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 1996 22:15:44 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all I can't say for sure about singular ya'll. I had been away from Oklahoma for a number of years before I ever heard the question asked. I haven't collected examples, so I can't offer any documentation on the question. I can accept "peripheral South." Jeutonne Brewer jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Natalie Maynor wrote: As a native Okie, I must object to being left out of the count. After all, not all the South is "deep South." Probably I shouldn't say I don't count Oklahoma at all. I count it as sort of an interesting peripheral area... In your Oklahoma experiences, have you ever heard a singular "y'all," Jeutonne? Like a biologist friend who keeps chasing some kind of elusive woodpecker without luck, I've been searching for a singular "y'all" for a good while now. No luck so far. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) 53 years in the South, most of them in the Real South, and no encounter yet with singular "y'all" ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Sep 1996 to 26 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 335 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. singular y'all (4) 2. Amerax? 3. Re[2]: singular y'all 4. singular y'all -Reply 5. RE Amerax? 6. No subject given 7. SECOL and Y'all 8. HONEYMOON: JFK, Jr.'s Marriage and the Lunar Eclipse ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:05:43 -0400 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Johnnie A. Renick wrote: I know that the singular ya'll is in the south. But usually the very southern tend to use it more than most. I just use the plural form .. spelled the same , of course. Johnnie, Would you please be good enough to define who or what the "very southern" are? I'm not trying to be contentious, but I am very curious, and perhaps very southern. BTW, I've never heard a native use the singular y'all, but I do remember one guy from college--UNC, Chapel Hill--who loved putting the suffix "-uns" on every pronoun he could manage: "Wher're you'uns goin'? We'uns thought we'd go get sumpin' t'eat." Just the thought of it still sends shudders through me, and I normally celebrate the dialect of my native area--northwest NC. I guess we all have our standards. Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 05:29:27 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all At 08:15 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: 53 years in the South, most of them in the Real South, and no encounter yet with singular "y'all" In the three years I've been in Southeast Georgia, I've been listening very carefully for examples of singular "y'all". I've heard lots of "you and yours" tokens, and a handful that seemed like changes of focus within the sentence. But see if y'all can interpret this one for me. When I walked into class one day two students were talking across the room (i.e., so that everyone else could listen in) about how miserable it was working at Wal-Mart during the Christmas shopping season. The conversation drifted from demanding customers to unruly children to forced overtime. At that point a third student chimed in, saying, "Yeah, I was supposed to get off at 10 last night, but they kept me until after 12." One of the first students turned to this one and said, "Oh, y'all work at Wal-Mart too?" Now the first two students happened to be black and the third one white, so my instantaneous interpretation of the question was "Oh, you mean white people work at Wal-Mart too?" -- i.e., a "you and yours" token. But that question would be silly to anyone who had been in the store, as these students of course had, and I could detect no sarcasm in the question (in fact, sarcasm seems to be very rare in this culture). So why the "y'all"? By the way, I had plenty of "text" from this student, and never heard another example of this usage from her. One variation on the "you and yours" usage that I've started noticing recently seems to involve avoiding the impression of over-intimacy. I've heard it mainly from men addressing women they don't know, as in "how y'all doin' today" from a male book salesman to a female secretary, where the same salesman has addressed another male with "how ya doin' today." My social sense tells me that the salesman is trying to avoid the appearance of coming on to the secretary, though of course I have no socially acceptable way of confirming that judgment, and I don't see many instances, since if the salesman is aware of my presence, the "y'all" becomes natural. Can anyone comment on this one? David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 06:20:52 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all 10 last night, but they kept me until after 12." One of the first students turned to this one and said, "Oh, y'all work at Wal-Mart too?" Now the first two students happened to be black and the third one white, so I don't know what the racial split is for the self-reportings of singular "y'all" in Guy and Jan's data, but your story here reminds me of something I was thinking about last night when I said I had never heard a singular "y'all." I started to add something like "clearly" to what I said, but then I decided that would be obvious anyway. Only one time have I ever heard anything that was even a hint of a singular "y'all" -- and it might have been a full-fledged one. I simply didn't hear it clearly. This was relatively recently (during summer school, I think). I was walking to class behind a black female student. Two older black women, wearing some kind of custodial uniforms, were walking toward us. My mind was somewhere else, probably on what I was going to do in the class I was on my way to, and all of a sudden I woke up and said to myself, "Did one of those older black women just say 'how y'all doing?' to the single student?" I paused, thinking about turning around and catching up with the women and asking them about it, but I was running late, had other things on my mind, and went on. If in fact she did say "y'all," I don't think in that context it would have been associative "y'all." As a native speaker of Southern, I have a pretty good sense of the parameters of that usage. I'm wondering whether use of singular "y'all" might be starting in African American speech. One problem with my example is that it was one of the older (middle-aged) women who *possibly* said it that day. If the usage is relatively new, I would expect to hear it from younger speakers. salesman has addressed another male with "how ya doin' today." My social sense tells me that the salesman is trying to avoid the appearance of coming on to the secretary, though of course I have no socially acceptable way of confirming that judgment, and I don't see many instances, since if the salesman is aware of my presence, the "y'all" becomes natural. Can anyone comment on this one? My turn-off-the-computer-by-6:30am rule is about to kick in, and this posting is already too long anyway. Are you out there, Michael Montgomery? I think Michael's article in the most recent(?) _SECOL Review_ covers areas somewhat related to this. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 09:22:26 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Amerax? I have a student who did a web search while trying to come up with a project to do for a class I'm teaching this quarter called "Language Use in the African American Community." He said he came across some info about a language variety called "Amerax" (I'm not sure of the spelling). Apparently it is a language variety spoken by newly converted Muslims who are converted while in prison. He's interested in finding out more about the language and the possible influence of Arabic. I have never heard of this language variety. I would do some searching on the web, but I'm having some problems doing that right now. He said he first saw it in an ethnology database or website. I would do a websearch of my own but I'm having some problems with doing that right now. Has anyone heard of this language variety before or have any info? *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 08:44:33 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: singular y'all Hey, y'all. Don't we do this about every 6 months? I'll repeat my singular experience with singular y'all, since it fits neatly with David Johns observations in that 1) usage was by an African-American teenager and 2) it could be construed as the polite plural/ avoidance of intimacy usage, which is fascinating in that we might be seeing an English parallel to tu/vous. [skip long story about my car engine blowing up] I found myself one afternoon standing outside the Greyhound bus station in Columbus, GA, all alone at the corner of the sidewalk, suitcase at my feet. Along came a young black man, head down with a deferential demeanor, who said as he passed, "How y'all?" It was the highlight of that trip, I guess you could say. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:13:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: singular y'all -Reply David A. Johns daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU 0927.0429 At 08:15 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: [...] One variation on the "you and yours" usage that I've started noticing recently seems to involve avoiding the impression of over-intimacy. I've heard it mainly from men addressing women they don't know, as in "how y'all doin' today" from a male book salesman to a female secretary, where the same salesman has addressed another male with "how ya doin' today." My social sense tells me that the salesman is trying to avoid the appearance of coming on to the secretary, though of course I have no socially acceptable way of confirming that judgment, and I don't see many instances, since if the salesman is aware of my presence, the "y'all" becomes natural. Can anyone comment on this one? I wonder... Of course this is reminiscent of the development of the second person in Latin- Romance, from the Classical Latin system (singular vs. plural with no dimension of intimacy) to systems in which intimacy vs. formality interacts with number in varying ways. (The dialectal variations in Spanish alone are bewildering!) And in English, and in German... I have seen this development in Latin attributed (sorry, no citation available) to the use of the plural "vos" to officials in their capacity as representatives of the State, which then allegedly spread from official situations to meeting the same people unofficially. I don't know how reliable that is. But I wonder if this situation that you report (and partially infer), or something comparable, could have also been a component. I've always felt the "official plural" [so to nickname it] explanation to be rather weak. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 10:55:30 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Amerax? Here's what I found that might help (note that I am leaving out references to the Amerax, which seems to be a brand of clothing). From the Ethnologue Database: -- AMERAX (USA), Language code AEX, Continent North America, Genetic affiliation Unclassified, Needs survey. Remarks: Spoken by Neo-Muslims in prisons. It may have Arabic influences (J. Milton Cowan 1990). Religion: Muslim Books edited by J. Milton Cowan: -- Hans-Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, published by Spoken Languages Services. Here are other mentions of a J. M. Cowan, but I don't think they apply. -- gopher://gopher.wkap.nl/00gopher_root1%3A%5Bbook.medi.1a00%5D1a001225.txt "Cytogenetics analysis in melanoma and nevi"; J.M. Cowan, U. Francke. -- http://www.rbge.org.uk/rhodo.html The study of the temperate rhododendrons was started at RBGE by Sir Isaac Bayley Balfour (Regius Keeper 1888-1922)... Between 1950 and 1973 this work was taken over by J.M. Cowan... -- http://expasy.hcuge.ch/cgi-bin/get-sprot-entry?P03995 RP SEQUENCE FROM N.A. RX MEDLINE; 85297756. [MEDLINE, MEDLARS] RA BALCAREK J.M., COWAN N.J.; RL NUCLEIC ACIDS RES. 13:5527-5543(1985). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 14:02:30 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all A while ago I wondered aloud whether sg. y'all might come about as sg. you did, a kind of politeness token. Of course everytime I mention sg. y'all on this list I get jumped on by real southerners (as opposed to fake ones like me, carpetbaggers who come from the South Side of Queens Blvd. in Forest Hills, NY). David Johns' post suggests that for some people this is perhaps what is happening. Does history repeat itself? Will y'all jump on me again? I can't wait to read the article Ron has been promising us. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 15:32:13 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given Whether to whet your appetite or no, y'all who are anticipating the forthcoming _American Speech_ essay might want to have a look at a paper written by yours truly in the Spring 1996 issue of _The SECOL Review_ that deals with the semantics and pragmatics of _y'all_ in considerable detail. Not only does it cite unambiguous examples of singular usage, but it offers some hypotheses for how that usage developed as an extension from the plural. The title of the essay is "The Future of Southern American English." Let's see whether the evidence of Bailey/Tillery is consistent with one or another of the hypotheses there. Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, Univ of South Carolina P.S.: Copies of _The SECOL Review_ and membership in SECOL are available through Prof. Marvin K L Ching at the Dept of English, Univ of Memphis, Memphis TN 38152. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 16:33:16 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: SECOL and Y'all P.S.: Copies of _The SECOL Review_ and membership in SECOL are available through Prof. Marvin K L Ching at the Dept of English, Univ of Memphis, Memphis TN 38152. For further info, see http://www.msstate.edu/Org/SECOL/. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:38:59 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: HONEYMOON: JFK, Jr.'s Marriage and the Lunar Eclipse "Honeymoon" indeed! The New York Post calls it "Hunky Moon." As everyone knows by now, JFK, Jr. got married. Also, there was a lunar eclipse. Hm!! This comes from Potter's American Monthly, October 1879, p. 312, col. 2: Benedict asks us the origin of the term "honeymoon." It is traceable to a Teutonic origin. Among the Teutons was a favorite drink called metheglin, made of the mead of honey, and very similar to the mead of European countries. This honeyed drink was used more especially at marriage festivals, which were customarily kept up among the nobility for the period of one lunar month, the board being well supplied with metheglin. Hence "Honah moon" signified the moon or month of the marriage festival. Alaric the Goth, celebrated in Southey's poem, died on his wedding night from a too free indulgence in the honeyed drink. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Sep 1996 to 27 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 136 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RE Amerax? 2. singular y'all 3. Y'all (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 13:07:34 -0400 From: "E. Wayles Browne" ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU Subject: Re: RE Amerax? From the Ethnologue Database: -- AMERAX (USA), Language code AEX, Continent North America, Genetic affiliation Unclassified, Needs survey. Remarks: Spoken by Neo-Muslims in prisons. It may have Arabic influences (J. Milton Cowan 1990). Religion: Muslim Books edited by J. Milton Cowan: -- Hans-Wehr Dictionary of Modern Written Arabic, published by Spoken Languages Services. J. Milton Cowan was a pioneer in using linguistics in organizing intensive language courses for the Army during World War II. After the war he founded the Division of Modern Languages at Cornell, which later became the Department of Modern Languages and Linguistics, later the Department of Linguistics and the Department of Modern Languages. He retired as chair of the Division/Department about 1972, continued to live in Ithaca, ran the Spoken Language Services publishing house (which distributed the World War II courses and a number of newer ones), and died a couple of years ago. He was indeed an Arabist, and produced the Arabic-English version of Hans Wehr's highly regarded Arabic-German dictionary. Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 17:42:34 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: singular y'all I'ss add to my brief comment about sg. ya'll. I've long had the feeling that it sounded right and that I had heard it used. As I noted in an earlier message, I haven't done any organized collecting or research, so I don't tend to make a claim one way or the other. So, I won't jump on Dennis Baron and others. Of course, I am a peripheral southerner rather than a real southerner. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 19:52:20 -0400 From: "E. Wayles Browne" ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU Subject: Y'all Here is a written attestation. Should we interpret it as singular? It seems to be both preceded and followed by singular you. [Letterhead:] James Carville Dear Friend, I hear that like me, you are committed to helping ___ ___ accomplish something in North Carolina that, by my count, is about 24 years overdue: The defeat of ___ ___. I'm glad to know that y'all are out there fighting the good fight, because I can't think fo a guy who deserves to be elected to the United States Senate more than Harvey. I know that Mr. ___ is grateful for your support. It _is_ folks like you who can make the difference this fall. If ___ is going to win this election, it will only be if you stand by him even with the so-called "experts" and the pontificating pundits say that ___ ___ can't be beat. And you don't need some bald-headed Cajun guy from Louisiana to tell you that those experts are just plain wrong this time around. [...] [names of candidates omitted as irrelevant] Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 21:34:15 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Y'all Here is a written attestation. Should we interpret it as singular? I wouldn't. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 22:56:30 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Y'all I don't think this is a clear, unambiguous example. It is the kind of example that begins to raise the question however. On Sat, 28 Sep 1996, E. Wayles Browne wrote: Here is a written attestation. Should we interpret it as singular? It seems to be both preceded and followed by singular you. [Letterhead:] James Carville Dear Friend, I hear that like me, you are committed to helping ___ ___ accomplish something in North Carolina that, by my count, is about 24 years overdue: The defeat of ___ ___. I'm glad to know that y'all are out there fighting the good fight, because I can't think fo a guy who deserves to be elected to the United States Senate more than Harvey. [snip] [names of candidates omitted as irrelevant] Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Sep 1996 to 28 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 151 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Katie bar the door (4) 2. Katie, bar the door! 3. Y'all ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:48:35 EDT From: Charles & Mary Boewe boewes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Katie bar the door When confronted by a calamity, either natural or man-made, my late father (1898-1985) was likely to remark, "It will be Katie bar the door!" I had supposed the expression was common to his generation and might be limited to the Middle West. However, recently on his ABC news program, Ted Koppel also declared that if certain things came about it would be "Katie bar the door." My questions are: Who was Katie? and Why did she bar the door? Charles Boewe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:38:14 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: Katie bar the door The following explanation is offered by Frederic G. Cassidy (Chief Editor, Dictionary of American Regional English), in an article entitled "DARE: Some Etymological Puzzles," forthcoming in early 1997, _Language Variety in the South Revisited_, edited by Cynthia Bernstein, Thomas Nunnally, and Robin Sabino, University of Alabama Press. My final example is an expression that had a considerable vogue in sports broadcasting early in 1991: Katie, bar the door! There is no question of the meaning: it is a signal of alarm, accurately translated as `All hell is about to break loose'. We have appealed for help in NADS (the newsletter of the American Dialect Society), and in American Notes and Queries but without much response. It seems pretty clearly to refer to the old story of the assassination in 1437 of King James the First of Scotland. The King was in an outbuilding, unarmed, accompanied only by the Queen and her ladies among whom was Katherine Douglas. When the attack came, someone shouted, "Katie, bar the door!" But the murderers had removed the bar, so Katie Douglas thrust her arm through the staples and held on. The men were too strong for her, her arm was broken, and though the King defended himself, he was killed. However, the heroic deed won Katie the nickname of Barlass, the lass who barred the door, and her praise was sung throughout Scotland. Now, the etymological question. How did this phrase come to be used in the United States in the late twentieth century? My best guess at present, based on no hard evidence but, I think, a reasonable surmise, is that Katie bar the door was a line, perhaps the refrain, of a popular song or ballad composed at the time of James' murder, that it was brought to America by Scottish immigrants, as so many ballads were, and that it lingered, most likely in Appalachia. Unfortunately, I have found no published form of this putative ballad, and if anyone knows it and can still sing it, he or she has not been found. Nevertheless, Katie bar the door has been in wide use for a long time. It is a reality, and the sense of it is exactly preserved in the form now used by sports figures and fans. It would require only one player or one sportscaster with Scottish roots to have revived it. Consider another well-known Southern phrase, which once had a popular vogue in the baseball world. "Sitting in the catbird seat" has been traced to Red Barber, a sports broadcaster of the 1930s and 1940s. It was later used in a short story by humorist James Thurber, who brought it to a wider audience. Katie bar the door may well have followed a similar route. I have come upon no competing explanation. But without some hard evidence, this particular scenario is inconclusive. I appeal once again to all with an interest in ballads or acquaintance with ballad singers. (pp. 280-281) . . . . . . Finally, Katie, bar the door. The reconstruction I have offered, however plausible, does not produce an acceptable etymology. I hope that someone may still find us some hard evidence. Till then, it is still etym. uncert. (p. 281) On Sun, 29 Sep 1996, Charles & Mary Boewe wrote: When confronted by a calamity, either natural or man-made, my late father (1898-1985) was likely to remark, "It will be Katie bar the door!" I had supposed the expression was common to his generation and might be limited to the Middle West. However, recently on his ABC news program, Ted Koppel also declared that if certain things came about it would be "Katie bar the door." My questions are: Who was Katie? and Why did she bar the door? Charles Boewe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 10:51:04 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Katie bar the door Is the implication of what Cindy just sent us that "Katie, bar the door" is associated with recent years more than with earlier this century? I may be wrong, but I think it's an expression I've known all my life and had not thought of as having had any kind of resurgence in popularity (recent resurgence, that is -- it may well have resurged at some point between the fifteenth and twentieth centuries). --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 13:55:11 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Katie, bar the door! Your baseball team is in trouble. There are men on the basepaths. The game is on the line. The manager comes to the mound and makes a pitching change. He brings in his "stopper," his "closer," his "relief pitcher," for one specific purpose, and the manager tells him.... "Katie, bar the door!" (No more runs, please!) I don't know the specific sportscaster who revived it in this sense, but if I ever get to write a sports dictionary, it's one of the things you'll see. You remember my on-line, interactive sports dictionary, don't you? You know, the one that's sponsored by Nike and Reebock and the Sports Authority and Footlocker and ESPN and Sports Illustrated? No federal funding at all! You know, the one that turns kids on to language and to technology? You want to be blown away by "Katie, bar the door"? We'll play that audio clip RIGHT NOW.... :-) P.S. Look for the onomastics of the "New York Yankees" here by tomorrow. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 15:12:39 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: Katie bar the door The Appalachian connection is consistent with my own experience. I am the son of parents born in Southern Kentucky who moved north for work during the early days of the Depression. Growing up in southwestern Ohio, where many others like my parents relocated, "katie bar the door" was an expression I heard with some frequency during my childhood. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 21:21:46 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Y'all I definitely wouldn't want to interpret the Carville quote as a singular address form either-- he's much too canny. If someone appealed to you as the lone struggler out there fighting the good fight, how likely would you be to send the money that is the whole point of the request? Clearly he wants to contextualize the recipient as one of the good-fighting gang who will prevail, and can only prevail in fact, through mobilizing superior numbers. Now if that ain't a plural... --plp ps. that said I definitely agree with Mr. Carville: up with ___ ___, and down with nasty old ___ ___! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Sep 1996 to 29 Sep 1996 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 269 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. JOE BOWERS: an antedate 2. Katie bar the door 3. Dialects that could have been 4. RE Re: Katie bar the door 5. Katie bar the door -Reply 6. Dialects that could have been -Reply 7. RE Re: Katie bar the door -Reply 8. RE Re: Katie bar the door -Reply -Reply 9. ? DITKA and SKIPPIES ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 01:24:47 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: JOE BOWERS: an antedate "Joe Bowers" is the title of a folk song and the name of a folk hero who "came from Missouri, all the way from Pike" during the '49er California gold rush. (Perhaps some of you have been watching the PBS series on THE WEST?) The song can be found in THE SONGS OF THE GOLD RUSH from the University of California Press, Berkeley, 1964. I visited Berkeley last year and checked out their "Joe Bowers" manuscripts. Joe Bowers loved a gal named Sally Black. He finally made a lucky gold strike while out West, but Sally had done married the butcher in Joe's absence. Louise Pound wrote three papers on this: JOE BOWERS, Southern Folklore Quarterly I, pp. 13-15, Sept. 1937. MORE "JOE BOWERS" LORE, Southern Folklore Quarterly II, pp. 131-133, Sept. 1938. YET ANOTHER JOE BOWERS, Western Folklore, pp. 111-120, April 1957. She still missed stuff. Libera Martina Spinazze's INDEX TO THE ARGONAUTS OF CALIFORNIA (1975), which I read in the San Francisco history room of the public library, lists a "J. Bowers, Ship Apollo, Sailed Jan. 17, 1849." Was Joe Bowers real or mythical? Louise Pound missed this gem, which I found by accident. It's from the New Orleans Picayune, 10 June 1841, pg. 2, col. 3: We have heard a great many very plausible stories in our day, but just at this peculiar juncture we are unable to think of any thing which will even hold a candle to the one which follows. If any two-legged animal, with a "human face divine" for a frontispiece, can tell any thing more reasonable we should be exceedingly happy to hear it. "In the days of our grandfathers there was one Joe Bowers, conspicuous above all wooers for his unremitting attention to his 'lady-love.' By night and day, in storm or in calm, he knew but one road, and that led to his mistress' home. His dog, his horse, his cat--every thing that belonged to him--went that way, and no other. Even an old pair of boots, which he threw away one night, were found the next morning kicking against her door, with the toes turned out just as he used to wear them, having travelled two miles in a dark night, with no other guide than their knowledge of the road! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:36:08 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Katie bar the door The evidence DARE received from our query in NADS showed the expression "Katie bar the door" to be very widespread in the US, and definitely not new--people remember it from very early in this century. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 08:56:35 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Dialects that could have been Date: Wed, 25 Sep 1996 10:17:50 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Dialects that could have been -Reply "Wow... an intersection of two of my favorite subjects, linguistics and sf. "But all I can think of offhand is, hmm, in _The Man Who Folded Himself_ (time travel and changing history): when our protagonist prevented the origin of Christianity and came back to his home place- time, he found that not only was society enormously different, but he couldn't understand anyone, because of the huge cumulative changes in nearly 2000 years' worth of history due to the presence or absence of Christianity. "Lots of authors have invented languages, of course (almost all of them really just fragments intended to give the impression of a language, and usually badly designed); but that's another whole thread, or list. There are a few future Englishes, some of them mere extremes of slang, vulgarity, and/or casual pronunciation. This take on the field is new to me. I'll keep the search churning in background. Anyone else?" L. Sprague De Camp's "The Wheels of If" has an English language without the heavy French influence, and with more Scandinavian influence. De Camp also wrote an article on "Language for Time Travellers" -- Astounding 1938, more recently The Best of L. Sprague De Camp. Damon Knight's "What Rough Beast" has a few sentences in an alternate world Canadian dialect of Yiddish. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 10:39:34 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Katie bar the door I remember a poem or verse about it. It is a rural, older couple arguing about who's going to get up and bar the door. I seem to remember the main refrain is the man saying to the woman, "Katie, bar the door!" I think strange visitors and the like happen before she finally gets up and, acting as if no argument and none of the strange events had happened, she bars the door. There's also a country song. To paraphrase the now gone band Uncle Tupelo put it, why is that all the songs everyone knows seem to be from Acuff-Rose? Composer: McAlpin, Vic. Title: Goodbye, Katie, bar the door. First line: Heard you last night and the night before when you came slippin' thru our back door Chorus: Goodbye, Katie, now bar the door Your ball and chain won't be home no more P/P/D: Nashville, TN : Acuff-Rose, c1953. Location: SPC,KIRK CM 1952-1953 Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:41:10 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Katie bar the door -Reply Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM 0930.0539 I remember a poem or verse about it. It is a rural, older couple arguing about who's going to get up and bar the door. I seem to remember the main refrain is the man saying to the woman, "Katie, bar the door!" [details clipped] While interesting, I don't think this is relevant to the primary use of the expression. I'm not knowledgeable about country music, but I get the sense that there's a long tradition of country songs that take a familiar phrase and give it a twist, setting up a situation in which the phrase either has a different interpretation from the ordinary one or is modified in a weird way. The only such song I can think of offhand is one I just heard mentioned, though I haven't heard it. The conceit and key phrase is "I'm only half a man [since you walked out the door]", and it's full of lines like "I drove my nine-wheeler down the road to the Motel Three and bought a three-pack of beer" (halving all the numbers). Anyway, this "Katie bar the door" song seems to be something similar. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 13:28:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Dialects that could have been -Reply Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM 0930.0856 writes: From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM [...] Damon Knight's "What Rough Beast" has a few sentences in an alternate world Canadian dialect of Yiddish. Hmm... I think it was Knight who wrote "You're Another", in which the future filmmaker manipulating our present speaks Esperanto (not very well, from what little we see; I suspect the author was using a dictionary and the basic grammar found in summaries like "The 16 Rules"). The filmmaker character's English was allegedly Esperanto-accented, but mechanically so: * Consonant substitutions like d for edh: reasonable * Stress always shifted to penult: only superficially reasonable. Why "only superficially"? I remember this example from the story: "Now you vill give me d'inSTRUment" = "Now you will give me the instrument" Eo stress is always penultimate, except in poetic syncope. But I think an Eo native speaking E, when faced with an obvious loan-"cognate", would keep the stress on the same syllable that has it in Eo: in this case, instruMENto (caps added to show stress), syncopatable to instruMENT' Eo-accented E instruMENT rather than ??inSTRUment Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:12:24 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Katie bar the door -Reply The poem and the country song are different things altogether, Mark. -------------------------------------- Grant Barrett: I remember a poem or verse about it. It is a rural, older couple arguing about who's going to get up and bar the door. I seem to remember the main refrain is the man saying to the woman, "Katie, bar the door!" Mark Mandel: While interesting, I don't think this is relevant to the primary use of the expression. I'm not knowledgeable about country music, but I get the sense that there's a long tradition of country songs that take a familiar phrase and give it a twist... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 14:37:28 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: RE Re: Katie bar the door -Reply -Reply Whoops. I misread your post, confused by the words "verse" (also meaning "stanza") and "refrain" (which I am used to seeing in reference to songs rather than poems). Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM 0930.0912 The poem and the country song are different things altogether, Mark. -------------------------------------- Grant Barrett: I remember a poem or verse about it. It is a rural, older couple arguing about who's going to get up and bar the door. I seem to remember the main refrain is the man saying to the woman, "Katie, bar the door!" Mark Mandel: While interesting, I don't think this is relevant to the primary use of the expression. I'm not knowledgeable about country music, but I get the sense that there's a long tradition of country songs that take a familiar phrase and give it a twist... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 18:07:57 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: ? DITKA and SKIPPIES Forwarded from the Stumpers list: Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 11:42:08 -0500 (CDT) From: quinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]evanston.lib.il.us To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crf.cuis.edu Subj: ? DITKA & SKIPPIES A marketing student asked us what the acronyms "DITKA" and "SKIPPIES" meant -- he thought they were in the same category as DINK (double income no kids). We've checked current dictionaries, & slang & acronym dictionaries, Infotrac, Alta Vista & Yahoo & a few others. We tried our full-text Chicago Tribune index for 1995 & 1996 too. We don't have access to Nexis/Lexis. Has anyone heard of these? Thank you! Marty Quinn, Evanston Public Library. quinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]evanston.lib.il.us Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html 3010 Hennepin Ave. S. #109, MPLS MN 55408 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Sep 1996 to 30 Sep 1996 ************************************************ .