There are 19 messages totalling 410 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. stove/range (4)

 2. Homing in on the range

 3. Navajo

 4. icebox (10)

 5. 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)

 6. Ice box

 7. how to subscribe



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:00:50 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: stove/range



I, too, heard "kitchen stove." I think it was to distinguish the stove you

cooked on from the stove that heated the house, e.g., a Franklin stove.

Growing up in an apt. in NYC, we had steam heat radiators, so there was

only the one stove. But "kitchen stove" definitely sounds familiar.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 07:34:52 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Homing in on the range



A range can have an oven, else why 'range top'?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 08:54:58 -0400

From:  John J Staczek <CAMJON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



>From Toledo, Ohio in the 40s and 50s, it was stove as in 'Dinner's on

the stove' along with 'Dinner's in the oven, but not ever with 'range'

as a collocation.

    I've a further question, what do we see as the distribution of

'ice box'? I grew up with that in Toledo and notice that I use it more

often than the other usual suspects of 'fridge, refrigerator, reefer,

frigidaire.

**********************************************************************

John J Staczek     *    Phone: 202.687.5741

Dept of Linguistics   *    Fax: 301.469.9196

Georgetown University  *    Internet: camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

Washington DC 20057   *    Home: 301.469.9196

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 08:01:43 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Navajo



Yes, I know, this is not really a dialect question, but perhaps someone out

there can help me anyway. Does Navajo have a writing system, and, if so,

how old is it?



Bob Wachal



robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 10:12:05 -0400

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



I recall my grandmother in Western Kentucky making the same distinction

that Donald Lance mentions. A "cook stove" was in the kitchen, but there

were also other "stoves" throughout the house used for heat. In fact,

what we in Louisville call a "space heater" many folks in W.Ky. referred

to as "stoves." And it made perfect sense to be told: "light the oven so

we can stand around the stove and get warm."



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 09:42:10 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: icebox



At 8:54 AM 10/1/95 -0400, John J Staczek wrote:





>    I've a further question, what do we see as the distribution of

>'ice box'? I grew up with that in Toledo and notice that I use it more

>often than the other usual suspects of 'fridge, refrigerator, reefer,

>frigidaire.



Wouldn't the distribution be by age rather than geography? My mother (b.

1930, Minnesota) used "icebox" somewhat more often than "refrigerator" or

"fridge," and I (b. 1958, Utah) mimicked her usage when I was a child. Now

I almost ever hear "icebox," and I never use it.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 11:43:55 -0400

From:  John J Staczek <CAMJON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



Kate Catmull's observation on icebox is a useful one for me, one I've

thought about. I was born in 1943 and certainly remember granddad and

mom and dad using it. I've a sister four years my senior who doesn't

use icebox in her now Detroit suburban speech, unless of course I've

been modeling it.

**********************************************************************

John J Staczek     *    Phone: 202.687.5741

Dept of Linguistics   *    Fax: 301.469.9196

Georgetown University  *    Internet: camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

Washington DC 20057   *    Home: 301.469.9196

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 12:22:39 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



Here's my kitchen appliances rundown. (Louisville, 1940's)



In my early experience, 'stoves' were wood (and coal) burning affairs. We

distinguished them from other heat-producing affairs in the house by

calling them 'kitchen stoves' or 'cook stoves' (the latter, the more

traditional term).

When electricity (especially) but gas, as well, became more popular for

cooking, we called the implements 'ranges' (or, if the distinction was

necessary, 'electric ranges' and 'gas ranges'). This lasted for the

relatively short period in my life while the two were co-existent. When the

old wood-burners disappeared (except in 'quaint' places), we reverted to

'stove' for the new-fangled items. I never used any of those words to

distinguish 'oven' in any way. If I wanted to refer to the 'oven' in

either, it was always 'oven.' If I wanted to distinguish the other useful

part, I used 'range top' or 'stove top' (distributed as above) for the

general area or 'burner' for a single area in the new items and 'stove lid'

for the older ones.



My cold-storage terminology is less abrupt. 'Icebox' faded into

'Kelvinator,' 'Frigidaire,' and 'refrigerator' (although the less formal

'fridge' also developed early. (In fact, I suspect this was very early,

because I remember a family term 'fridgy-didgy' pronounced 'friddy'diddy'

by my parents, apparently as a baby-talk allowence for children's later

developing affricates, and I'm sure my affricates were well in place by

1943, although adults, of course, may continue to use baby-talk

pronunciations long after children aquire adult norms, as I remember to my

horror when my mother once referred to a 'faboo' [my baby-talk for

'flower'] when an older, and obviously cooler child was around). Oddly

enough, I later felt the brand terms to be more old-fashioned than the use

of 'icebox' for the modern appliance, and I still often say 'icebox' when I

refer to the starship piece of equipment I have today, but I wouldn't think

of using the old brand terms.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>

Faboo pickin' time is over in Michigan



>Kate Catmull's observation on icebox is a useful one for me, one I've

>thought about. I was born in 1943 and certainly remember granddad and

>mom and dad using it. I've a sister four years my senior who doesn't

>use icebox in her now Detroit suburban speech, unless of course I've

>been modeling it.

>**********************************************************************

>John J Staczek     *    Phone: 202.687.5741

>Dept of Linguistics   *    Fax: 301.469.9196

>Georgetown University  *    Internet: camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu

>Washington DC 20057   *    Home: 301.469.9196

>**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 12:57:38 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)



i assumed a different etymology for goo goo cluster: goobers in goo.



lynne m.



> The Goo Goo Cluster has been a curiosity since its origin. One account says

> that Campbell settled on the name because his son, only a few months old at

> the time, uttered those words when first introduced to the new candy. Another

> version suggests that Campbell was struck with his son's first utterance and

> decided it was an appropriate name. Whatever the true version, Standard Candy

> Company has contended for years that a Goo Goo is the first thing a southem

> baby requests.Along with the Goo Goo, the company, founded in I901, produces the

> ever-popular King Leo stick candy, a staple in many southern homes and a common Christ mas treat and gift.

> Since I968 the Grand Ole Opry has been singing the praises of the GooGoo, sharing

> the wise culinary advice with those in attendance and reaching thousands more

> over W S M radio. So closely associated is the candy with the Opry, some have

> suggested that "Goo" stands for Grand Ole Opry. Grant Turner continues to let

> listeners know how to order the candy by mail, encouraging them further with

> the familiar slogan: "Go Get a Goo Goo.... It's Good."



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 13:12:06 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Ice box



I grew up (southeast TX) with icebox anc continued to use it for a long

time after we acquired our first electric appliance. I remember the

ice truck in Beaumont, TX (we moved there when I was 10). We had a 25

lb. block delivered --daily? I don't recall. I also have a brief

note from another list about remembering ice blocks. I'll post it.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 12:22:19 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



I think that several years ago when wood-burning stoves were becoming

politically positive for yuppie domiciles "wood-burning ranges" were

being marketed. I think I saw one in a store or a home; it had a firebox

that gave off heat but also had a "rangetop" above the firebox. But

I also have funny dreams occasionally.



I think in my teens or twenties I opted for 'refrigerator' because it

bothered me that some people would use a brand name as a generic. That

would have been late teens, because we didn't have a refrigerator till I

was a senior in high school, when we also got our first deep freezer (1948).

We previously had ice boxes (the real thing).

                          DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 14:02:19 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



b. 1943, Jackson, Mississippi:



The whole appliance = stove.

The oven = stove or oven.

The hot, round things on the top = burners.

The general space on top = top of the stove.



The other appliance = refrigerator. I guess I must have heard somebody

say "ice box" at some point during my childhood, although I don't associate

that with anybody I remember. I know my parents said "refrigerator." I

think my grandparents also (or at least the two of them still living when

I was born), although I may be wrong about that.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 15:56:49 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



I, born in Wenatchee, Washington, in 1929, remember when we had an

icebox. We used to go Columbia ice, get two-bits' worth of ice (25lbs)

which we'd carry home on the rear bumper of the car, a 1929 Chevvie. I

must have been about six when we finally got a "refrigerator.' But I

still often call such a device an icebox, to the embarrassment of my

offspring.



I have fond memories of hot summer days when we'd follow the iceman

around, trying to get him to come up with chips of ice for us to suck.

He was kind enough to let us snitch some, and growl and threaten us

with the law. His name was Mr. Bretz and he was phenomenally strong.



so it goes

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 19:58:47 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



As to the bit about Fridge/icebox...



Growing up in Central Ohio in the seventies/eighties, I don't think I ever

heard anyone, even my grandparents, use Icebox. The only time I heard that

one was on movies and television! For that matter, we only used the term

stove. But "they" always called it an "Amana range" or something like that

on The Price Is Right. Is it perhaps a West Coast thing?



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III



"Little ditty,

 'Bout Jack and Dianne.

 Two American kids growin' up

 In the heartland."

    Jack and Dianne

    John Cougar



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 19:34:24 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: icebox



b. 1959, Atlanta, GA



like Natalie, I rarely hear either range or icebox here in the South. I don't

remember any of my relatives saying icebox, though my father might say

something like that in jest. My grandmother called hers a frigidaire, which it

took me many years to decipher.



Ellen JOhnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:44:33 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: icebox



From: Seth Sklarey

   Coconut Grove FL

  crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



Have been reading ADS-L for several weeks and it is my favorite spot on the

'net,

and I subscribed.



My folks who were born 1901 & 1905 and were raised in Newark, NJ, used to always

it the icebox and eventually evolved to calling it the Fridgidaire or the

Fridge.

There is a word for when brand names become the generic but I forget what it

is.

What is interesting about the iceboxis that my father had a friend, Louis

Ulanet,

an inventor,who was bothered that the melting ice from the icebox would fill

the container beneath the box and overflow to wet the floor. He invented a

bell which

rang when the container was almost full. From this he invented and developed

and

patented the thermostat, which made him millions. Whenever I hear the word

icebox

I think of him. He also invented the nose scissor, those short scissors

with the

rounded tips.



Since you all have been off Mondegreens for a week, I thought I'd offer one

of my

own. "Politics makes strange buffaloes."





Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipof.fla.net



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------



>b. 1959, Atlanta, GA

>

>like Natalie, I rarely hear either range or icebox here in the South. I don't

>remember any of my relatives saying icebox, though my father might say

>something like that in jest. My grandmother called hers a frigidaire, which it

>took me many years to decipher.

>

>Ellen JOhnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:41:28 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



Let me add some additional evidence for Kate Catmull's suspicion...



>Wouldn't the distribution be by age rather than geography? My mother (b.

>1930, Minnesota) used "icebox" somewhat more often than "refrigerator" or

>"fridge," and I (b. 1958, Utah) mimicked her usage when I was a child. Now

>I almost ever hear "icebox," and I never use it.



'Icebox' was used in our house when I was growing up in New York City (b.

1945) and I too used it standardly at the time but less and less frequently

since then. My wife (b. 1944), who grew up in Connecticut, reports the same

sequence. It's beginning to look like the gradual disappearance of 'icebox'

is a national, rather than regional, trend. We MAY have also used

'frigidaire' as a generic, but my memory is unclear on that one.



 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 21:58:27 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



My understanding is that the demise of terms such as icebox (and spyder =

skillet = frying pan) was hastened by the advent of the Sears Roebuck

catalog. It contained pictures of all these things plus the "right" name for

them.



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 1 Oct 1995 22:41:57 CDT

From:  Jeff Allen <jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HEARTLAND.BRADLEY.EDU>

Subject: how to subscribe



Nathalie,



What is the exact subscribe message to send to the LISTSERV for this list.

I've got a friend who wants to subscribe, but that command is not indicated

in the "You are now subscribed to the ADS-L List" message.



JEFF

jeallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]heartland.bradley.edu  OR  jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Sep 1995 to 1 Oct 1995

***********************************************





There are 37 messages totalling 831 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. stove/range

 2. phonetics of dialects (6)

 3. Dropping letters from alphabets (2)

 4. icebox (6)

 5. icebox and upstate (4)

 6. Fwd: Re(2): icebox

 7. Dropping letters fro

 8. downtown/inner city (7)

 9. inner city

 10. icebox and upstate (fwd)

 11. Terminology of unexcused absences (2)

 12. from Lynne re candy

 13. 'chili' or 'chile'

 14. Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?

 15. phonetic spelling in high places (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:29:22 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



>Is the stove/range distinction purely regional, or is there a difference

>in meaning? Also, do those of you living on the East Coast use the term

>"swamp cooler" for an air conditioner-like device that cools using

>water? (It's very popular out here in Colorado.) I use the term "stove"

>exclusively (I come from Philadelphia), but "range" seems to be a much more

>popular term out here.

>

>Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



We called it a "stove" in San Antonio. We also called the heating elements

"burners." I found that "eyes" sounded peculiar to my ears in the

Philadelphia area.



I remember those fake air conditioners. I can still smell the air from the

two I was around as a child. I want to say that we called them "coolers"

or maybe "water coolers" (as opposed to "water fountains" or "drinking

fountains" where you drank), I won't bet money on this portion of my groggy

Monday-morning memory.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 07:43:26 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: phonetics of dialects



I would be interested in learning who is working on the phonetics

of dialects. I havewritten "The Comparative Phonetics O

of English and Its Dialects" and The Phonetics of Standard British

Pronunciation: RP English-A Pseudo Concept?" Warren Shibles

Warren Shibles shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uwwvax.uww.edu POB342,Whitewater,WI53190

Fax 414 472 5238



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:57:05 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Warren, where is your ms. available?



("The Comparative Phonetics O of English and Its Dialects")



Thanks,

Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:01:09 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dropping letters from alphabets



Dropping ll and ch from the alphabet? Is the EU going to make

the Nordic languages drop their special vowels next? (Of course,

most of the Spanish-speaking world is beyond the control of

the EU, and I doubt will change its idea of the alphabet to

satisfy some foreign bureaucrats who probably don't even speak

Spanish.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:15:02 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



I echo Bethany's question. There are gobs of us panting for such

information. (Old C.-J.-ites you might call us.) Does your work include

acoustic as well as impressionistic discussions?

Dennis Preston



<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





>Warren, where is your ms. available?

>

>("The Comparative Phonetics O of English and Its Dialects")

>

>Thanks,

>Bethany Dumas

>dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:14:09 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dropping letters from alphabets



What will replace ll and ch?





Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:31:07 -0500

From:  Shana Walton <swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OCEAN.ST.USM.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



Well, the icebox/refrigerator distinction can't be regional, nor can the

eyes/burner distinction be because I'm a native Southerner as well and my

family said "icebox" and "eyes." I can clearly remember not knowing

what a "burner" was! We did, however, use "icebox" and "fridge" and

"refrigerator" (less common) interchangeably.



(Middle Tennessee and Louisiana, b. 1961)





Shana Walton

Mississippi Oral History Program

University of Southern Mississippi

swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ocean.st.usm.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:45:15 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: icebox



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 02-Oct-1995 09:36am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: icebox





b. 1940 Brooklyn, lived on Long Island since '42: we had an icebox until the

early 50's; the iceman came regularly just as the milk- and breadman did. I

remember added the water to my fish tanks (NEVER acquaria!) in the winter when

evaporation was a problem. Maybe the variable in this discussion that's been

overlooked is the size of the urban area. The iceman came until it was

economically impractical to do so, so that smaller places "lost" their

iceboxes before larger ones. No one I knew went down to the river and cut

blocks of ice: it had to be delivered to a warehouse & stored all summer in

sawdust. In all probability the NYC area had ice from upstate or NE rather than

the Hudson anyway.



Anyway, what I'm reading on the list the last few days is that "iceboxes" can be

remembered by people in their 50's in NY but only as hearsay from grandparentsin

other places.

BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 02-Oct-1995 09:45am



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:14:00 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



Two items surface in this discussion of the distribution of icebox.



Ice came from as close to Brooklyn as Verplanck, NY (Peekskill vacinity),

where a section of a bay (Lake Mehan (spelling?) as I recall) was dammed for

the purpose of harvesting ice from the Hudson. That was in the days of the

icehouses used to store it through the summer and fall. One of the important

cargo items for Hudson River sloops was ice.



A storyteller in the lower Hudson Valley has been having a bit of a debate

with another person on the definition of upstate in New York. He grew up in

Westcherster (I believe). That's the first county in New York State north of

New York City. To residents of New York City and Westchester/Putnam County,

where does upstate begin? Pick a town (or city) or other landmark. In terms

of the linguistic atlas data, I suspect that the increase of territory in the

commutershed of New York City has pushed the "line" north at least to

Poughkeepsie on the eastern bank of the Hudson River. West of the Hudson

River the "line" may be as close as Newburgh or even farther south.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:15:36 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Fwd: Re(2): icebox



I was born in Chicago (1941). Mom (born in Wisconsin, 1908) and Dad (born in

Missouri, 1900) used icebox or refrigerator. I use icebox as often as

refrigerator, I think. The shortened forms I do not recollect using or having

heard nearly as much as ice box. I'll try to keep track of what my wife (born

in Washington state, 1955) and my sons (born in New York state, 1990 and 1991)

use.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:20:04 EDT

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Dropping letters fro



In Spanish, the change has to do with eliminating the separate sections for

ch and ll in dictionaries. Now all the words beginning with ch will be in

the expected location in the Cs. Similarly, the words beginning with ll

will be where they ought to be in the Ls. For a couple of decades, persons

using older dictionaries will have to determine which alphabetizing scheme

use.





>>>What will replace ll and ch?

>>>Wayne Glowka



Richard Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:20:37 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



>A storyteller in the lower Hudson Valley has been having a bit of a debate

>with another person on the definition of upstate in New York. He grew up in

>Westcherster (I believe). That's the first county in New York State north of

>New York City. To residents of New York City and Westchester/Putnam County,

>where does upstate begin? Pick a town (or city) or other landmark. In terms

>of the linguistic atlas data, I suspect that the increase of territory in the

>commutershed of New York City has pushed the "line" north at least to

>Poughkeepsie on the eastern bank of the Hudson River. West of the Hudson

>River the "line" may be as close as Newburgh or even farther south.



We used to say "upstate" begins at Yonkers, but we didn't mean it. But

Northern Westchester was definitely upstate (for Manhattanites in the 50's).

Maybe it was partly the ratio of trees, cows, barns, etc. to apartment houses

that was criterial rather than just the distance from Times Square.



Larry

David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:55:41 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: icebox



I used both icebox and frigidaire in Queens (b. 1944).



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:04:19 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: downtown/inner city



Greetings,

When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

it the inner-city.









Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 08:14:02 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



b. 1951, Portland OR,

Whole appliance = stove

oven = oven (Dinner's in the oven. Dinner's on the stove)

electric elements = burners

Stove/kitchen stove = stove for cooking, any other stove had to be specified

 e.g., parlour stove, wood stove, etc.

icebox sometimes used by grandparents (b.1893 and 1900) for

refrigerator/fridge/'frigerator

I have heard the term "range" but I associated it with a counter top unit

without an oven, and rarely use the term in any other sense.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> b. 1943, Jackson, Mississippi:

>

> The whole appliance = stove.

> The oven = stove or oven.

> The hot, round things on the top = burners.

> The general space on top = top of the stove.

>

> The other appliance = refrigerator. I guess I must have heard somebody

> say "ice box" at some point during my childhood, although I don't associate

> that with anybody I remember. I know my parents said "refrigerator." I

> think my grandparents also (or at least the two of them still living when

> I was born), although I may be wrong about that.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:20:46 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



>Greetings,

>When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

>As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

>it the inner-city.

>

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



I used to go downtown in San Antonio; apparently, Petula Clark would have

done the same. In Milledgeville, we go downtown; but downtown is also a

euphemism for going to a bar downtown. Indeed, I am told that students

drive all the way from Alabama to enjoy our weekly, Thursday-night mardi

gras.



In Philadelphia in the mid-70s people went to center city. I imagine that

they still do.



"Inner-city" sounds like late 60s social activism at work.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:23:23 EST

From:  David Beach <BEACH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMC.CZ>

Subject: Re: icebox



b. 1961, England

American parents--father from southern VA, mother from northern GA



whole appliance - stove

where things bake - oven

gas/electric elements - range

cold food storage facility - refrigerator



 + David Beach * Business English * Czech Mgmt Center

 + namesti 5. kvetna 2 * 250 88 Celakovice * Czech Rep

 + ph: +42 202 891441 fax: +42 202 891997

 + "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks

 + the chief danger of our time." - John Stuart Mill



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:32:54 EST

From:  David Beach <BEACH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMC.CZ>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



Tom Uharriet wrote:

> Greetings,

> When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

> As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

> it the inner-city.



At first glance, this brings up many perceptional issues: racial,

ethnic, gentrificational.



I lived in Washington for 15 years. The perception is that there is

a downtown (the business district), an inner city (the residential

district), a federal district (the government buildings) and an area

that has no definition, but is not considered one of the above (more

affluent business and residential areas such as Georgetown, Dupont

Circle, etc). I lived in the inner city, and then outside of the

city, but "inside the beltway" which has another connotation: "outside

the beltway" is suburbia whereas "inside the beltway" is a mixture of

urban and suburban with an emphasis on the politics of government.



For example, it is common to hear the expression "outside the

beltway" to refer to Americans' views of the government away from the

Washington metropolitan area (eg "The opinion of Americans outside

the beltway is that Washington is full of hot air.").



This could be an interesting thread of discussion for a while.



David





 + David Beach * Business English * Czech Mgmt Center

 + namesti 5. kvetna 2 * 250 88 Celakovice * Czech Rep

 + ph: +42 202 891441 fax: +42 202 891997

 + "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks

 + the chief danger of our time." - John Stuart Mill



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 09:38:15 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: inner city



> When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

> As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

> it the inner-city.



I'm not convinced that they're the same semantically, although there's

usually plenty of overlap in the realizations of the words, especially

when they are used to describe areas of megalopolises such as the

sprawling LA areas.



To me, "downtown" simply suggests a centrally located business district.

"Inner city" connotes several negative things about the area, such as

poverty, high crime, and so forth. Since downtown areas are where inner

city area tend to form, I'd be willing to bet that that's why the words

overlap in function.



-Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 11:16:16 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



I'm tempted to say that upstate begins where the commuter rail service

ends, which I think at the moment means Brewster or thereabouts.

(I'm a Manhattan resident and grew up in Queens.) Commuter rail in this

case is standing in for a feeling that "upstate" is that part of the

state that is not closely connected to the New York City economy, in

particular where few if any people work in the city or come down here

regularly to shop (as distinct from the occasional trip to see a show,

visit people, or even once-a-year holiday shopping). But I also suspect

that "upstate" for this purpose is farther out than the edge of the

New York City dialect area.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 12:52:29 EDT

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate (fwd)



David Wrote:



>

> A storyteller in the lower Hudson Valley has been having a bit of a debate

> with another person on the definition of upstate in New York. He grew up in

> Westcherster (I believe). That's the first county in New York State north of

> New York City. To residents of New York City and Westchester/Putnam County,

> where does upstate begin? Pick a town (or city) or other landmark. In terms

> of the linguistic atlas data, I suspect that the increase of territory in the

> commutershed of New York City has pushed the "line" north at least to

> Poughkeepsie on the eastern bank of the Hudson River. West of the Hudson

> River the "line" may be as close as Newburgh or even farther south.

>

> David K. Barnhart

> Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com

>



Being from the Hudson Valley and having much family from the Bronx and in and

around Manhatten, it always seemed that to the folks living within the city,

upstate New York began right outside the city limits. Say, maybe, Orange

County. But to me, living about an hour outside the city, right next to

West Point, upstate New York seemed more like past Albany. And central New

York was asound Syracuse.



Danielle Levitt

dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:07:10 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



I vote with Larry here (hi, Larry!) for a national phenomenon all pretty

much at the same time. B. 1946 in Los Angeles, I remember our icebox when

I was very young; I remember the hole in the outside of the house where

the iceman placed the block of ice, and I remember years later when we

remodeled the kitchen and belatedly stuccoed over the ice door. We called

the new appliance a 'fridge' ("It's in the fridge"), which I take to be

the reduced form of refrigerator since my folks were confirmed Sears

shoppers (when Roebuck was still around), so it probably wasn't a

brand-name Frigidaire. The new even colder part was the freezer, but it

took years for everyone to stop calling the combined unit 'the icebox'.





On Sun, 1 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> Let me add some additional evidence for Kate Catmull's suspicion...

>

> >Wouldn't the distribution be by age rather than geography? My mother (b.

> >1930, Minnesota) used "icebox" somewhat more often than "refrigerator" or

> >"fridge," and I (b. 1958, Utah) mimicked her usage when I was a child. Now

> >I almost ever hear "icebox," and I never use it.

>

> 'Icebox' was used in our house when I was growing up in New York City (b.

> 1945) and I too used it standardly at the time but less and less frequently

> since then. My wife (b. 1944), who grew up in Connecticut, reports the same

> sequence. It's beginning to look like the gradual disappearance of 'icebox'

> is a national, rather than regional, trend. We MAY have also used

> 'frigidaire' as a generic, but my memory is unclear on that one.

>

> Larry

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 10:14:28 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



Same with me, Tom. I think it happened while I was away in Montana for

five years during the early '70s. It seemed like a weird contamination

for LA from other places like New York and Chicago to now refer to

downtown LA as "inner city".





On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Greetings,

> When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

> As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

> it the inner-city.

>

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:11:44 -0400

From:  "J. Russell King" <JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



>When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

>As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

>it the inner-city.

>

>

Great question. I noticed a couple of weeks ago in part of the flood of

articles about General Colin Powell a statement to the effect that "Powell

would be the first President who grew up in the inner city." The area around

Gramercy Park where Theodore Roosevelt was born and raised is about as urban

and inner as any part of a city could be, if the definition is only

geographical. I suspect that it isn't "downtown" that's become "inner city,"

it's "slums" or "black neighborhoods" that have become "inner city." The

connotation is almost invariably racial and economic, isn't it?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 14:33:39 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



Ask anyone from Rochester, or pick up a copy of the

"Upstate" magazine in Rochester's Sunday paper:



"Upstate" is the region in the broad arc from Buffalo

through Ithaca to Utica, and back along the shore

of Leak Anterio. <local grin>



--Doug



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 15:36:43 -0400

From:  Michael Elkins <MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



Tom Uharriet wrote:

> Greetings,

> When did "downtown" become "inner-city"?

> As a child, I used to go downtown to the heart of Los Angeles. Now

> it the inner-city.



--------



For me, going "downtown" paints a picture of going to work, going to

take care of government/etc. business, going shopping (not so much

anymore on this last one). "Inner city" is used to describe the older,

impoverished sections of a city--usually the original downtown and

surrounding area of a city if there are residences present--in order to

differentiate from the newer suburban zones that hopeful homeowners

populated in the post-World War II boom. (Merriam Webster cites its

first evidence of "inner city" as being from 1961.)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:24:52 -0400

From:  PAULA RENEE BROWNING <prbrow01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



When I was in high school(1987-1991), we always referred to unexcused

absences as "laying out". As a matter of fact, seniors were given a

designated day for unexcused absences,"senior lay-out day". We also used a

term, but not as

often," Hookey." My father used this term more than I did, however. In

the region that I am from, it seems the most accepted term by students

and teachers for unexcused abscences is"laying out."









Paula R. Browning

Undergraduate

Morehead State University



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:30:53 -0400

From:  PAULA RENEE BROWNING <prbrow01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy



I have always referred to anything chocolate as a candy bar. When I want

something sweet from the candy machine, I say that I want a candy bar. I

include M&M's as a type of candy bar. Even though it is not a bar in the

typical shape, it is categorized as a type of candy to me because it is

chocolate and very fattening.  I also include Raisinettes in this

category, as well. Therefore, in my catergorical mind, anything

chocolate and sold in a vending machine is a candy bar.









Paula R. Browning

Undergraduate

Morehead State University



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:44:04 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: 'chili' or 'chile'



Dictionaries seem to list these as variant spellings, but I seem to

recall from a cooking class I once took in Santa Fe that 'chile' refers

to the pepper and the powder and 'chili' to some strange kind of soup

made in Texas.



Can any southwestern-savvy dialectologist come to my rescue?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 16:04:26 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?



> When I was in high school(1987-1991), we always referred to unexcused

> absences as "laying out". As a matter of fact, seniors were given a

> designated day for unexcused absences,"senior lay-out day". We also used a

> term, but not as

> often," Hookey." My father used this term more than I did, however. In

> the region that I am from, it seems the most accepted term by students

> and teachers for unexcused abscences is"laying out."

>

> Paula R. Browning



I've never heard "laying out" except as used to get a tan (Calif.).

We had a Senior Ditch Day. I think "Hookey" was also common in all

the states I've lived in.



Have any of the rest of you used "laying out" for hookey or for

tanning?







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:05:16 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



>

> When I was in high school(1987-1991), we always referred to unexcused

> absences as "laying out". As a matter of fact, seniors were given a

> designated day for unexcused absences,"senior lay-out day". We also used a

> term, but not as

> often," Hookey." My father used this term more than I did, however. In

> the region that I am from, it seems the most accepted term by students

> and teachers for unexcused abscences is"laying out."

>

> Paula R. Browning

> Undergraduate

> Morehead State University

>



    That's funny. My high school days (1989-1992) unexcused absences

were referred to as a "cut". We also had a senior day. Seniors then,

referred to it as "national cut" day. My mother uses the word "hookey" when I

was in High school, but not as much now since I am in college.



R.



--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 20:11:10 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: phonetic spelling in high places



i quote from the latest (october 1995) Notes of the

Princeton Club of New York (p. 5):



  GOING TO THE THEATER?

 Remember to try our special pre-fixe din-

 ner in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

 Saturday for only $19.95 plus...



arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:15:31 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



The article on the phonetics of English is just being published

in RASK: Internat tidjsskrift for sprog og kommunikation.

(Denmark) The article on RP is in RASK v.2, April, pp.51-89. Another

is in World Englishes 14, no.2, 1995. /sig



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 19:24:20 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



The article on the phonetics of English is just being published

in RASK: Internat tidjsskrift for sprog og kommunikation.

(Denmark) The article on RP is in RASK v.2, April, pp.51-89. Another

is in World Englishes 14, no.2, 1995.Warren. /sig



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 18:37:49 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



 In Burlington, VT, when we mean "we're going downtown" we say "we're going

downstreet." This came about because most of Burlington's population lives

off North Ave, the main drag to the north, or Shelburne Rd. to the south.

Hence the term downstreet is expedient, as well as true, unless you're a

UVM student, in which case the term would be "downhill," since UVM is up-

hill and east of downtown. However, the expected term hasn't caught on,

presumably because the students aren't around long enough.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 23:03:35 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: phonetic spelling in high places



Arnold observes,



>i quote from the latest (october 1995) Notes of the

>Princeton Club of New York (p. 5):

>

>  GOING TO THE THEATER?

> Remember to try our special pre-fixe dinner

            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

> Saturday for only $19.95 plus...

--featuring, of course, subs (garnis)

            Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 2 Oct 1995 22:20:24 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Send me your address and I will send you a reprint. Warren

Warren Shibles shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uwwvax.uww.edu POB342,Whitewater,WI53190

Fax 414 472 5238



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Oct 1995 to 2 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 38 messages totalling 896 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. downtown/inner city (3)

 2. icebox and upstate (4)

 3. icebox

 4. ice box

 5. upstate

 6. inner city

 7. Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time. (3)

 8. 'chili' or 'chile' (2)

 9. phonetics of dialects

 10. bar time ((mis)use of header)

 11. Bar Time???

 12. downtown/inner city -Reply

 13. Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time. -Reply

 14. phonetic spelling in high places -Reply (2)

 15. pronunciation note (2)

 16. phonetic spelling in high places (2)

 17. Upstate NY (4)

 18. Terminology of unexcused absences

 19. metric or ...

 20. Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning? (2)

 21. Iceboxes

 22. Fwd: Re(2): downtown/inner city

 23. Collecting things (I collect warnings)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:28:06 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



At 06:37 PM 10/2/95 -0400, Christopher R. Coolidge wrote:

> In Burlington, VT, when we mean "we're going downtown" we say "we're going

>downstreet." This came about because most of Burlington's population lives

>off North Ave, the main drag to the north, or Shelburne Rd. to the south.

>Hence the term downstreet is expedient, as well as true, unless you're a

>UVM student, in which case the term would be "downhill," since UVM is up-

>hill and east of downtown. However, the expected term hasn't caught on,

>presumably because the students aren't around long enough.

>

>

    The term "downstreet" was in use in many small Vermont towns (which

meant most Vermont towns) as far back as the mid 1940s. Vermont

("in-state") students at UVM report that it is still in use today. I think

that their usage may have spread to the out-of-state students at UVM, and

suggest that as its origin in Burlington, as opposed to the very logical

process described by Mr. Coolidge. But where did it originally come from?





Virginia P. Clark

Professor of English

University of Vermont

Burlington, VT 05405



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:34:30 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



The Usenet group alt.culture.ny-upstate's charter defines "upstate" as

north of Westchester. However, I know someone who claims you're not

really upstate if you can't see the Canadian border.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 02:15:35 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox



The original "eyes" of cook stoves were holes in the top of a wood-burning

stove. You could put a "lid" in the eye and set a pot on top of it, or

you could take the lid out and put a pot down into the eye to provide

a higher temperature to the bottom of the pot (or pan). Burners served

somewhat the same function as eyes when gas and electric stoves/ranges

were invented. There also were eyes with lids on the top of many wood-

burning stoves used as space heaters. Speaking from experience. DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 02:24:27 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



At least in Texas, when electrical power plants were built they also

had banks of tubs in which ice was made in part of the building. Not

many of them are still operating. The Southern Ice Company in Texarkana

(Texas side) operates out of the old power plant building, but does not

use the old tubs, nor is electricity generated there. I suspect that

such practices were common throughout the country, and that cutting

blocks of ice out of ponds and rivers was pretty well gone by the

1920s.   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:29:11 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: ice box



I think this might just be a question of age - or the age of one's parents.

When there were only ice boxes - that's what they were called. If your

parents/grandparents continued to call the appliance that kept food cold

and ice box even when it was a refrigerator - I'd suspect you'd keep

calling it what you heard as a child when you learned the names of things.



Does this also apply to the string bean/green bean?



On the other hand, in my very first independent apt., the refrigerator was

a Philco. Upon cleaning it after moving in, I discovered that the metal

letters were only stuck in the door with little metal dowels. I rearanged

them, and thereafter had a Ploich.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:29:22 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: upstate



Growing up in NY, upstate was definitely above Westchester County. My

grandfather owned a house in Mountaindale in the Catskills - and that was

always referred to as "the country" - not upstate.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 02:35:37 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: inner city



There is a downtown in St. Louis that is surrounded by inner city. And

there are inner-city-type suburbs that go by their own names. Each

city would have its own pattern.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:52:31 +0100

From:  "C.A. Hoornstra" <cah012[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time.



I went to high school in Madison, Wisconsin from 1984 - 1988 and although

I'd heard of the terms "laying out"(or "laying low"), "cut" and "play

hookey" to refer to unexcused absences, the only term we consistently

used was "skip". (My mother referred to it euphemistically as "missing"

class.)



Here's a term that has caused confusion to people outside of Wisconsin:

"bar time." It refers to the time that a bar closes. Thus, we would say,

"When is bar time?" Does anyone else use this term?



CAHoornstra



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:49:31 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'chili' or 'chile'



Bob,



I have encountered no such regularity (although, as you well know, the folk

repondents you may have heard would, like all other nonlinguists, have

wanted to impose some).



Here is what I know:



chilli (Nahuatl) for the pepper itself.

Variants in both Spanish and English include (at least) chilli, chile, and

chili; I do not know about the Spanish dialectal distribution; I assume the

spellings in Spanish reflect real pronunciation differences but that they

do not in English (see just below).



I personally always say 'chili' (chilly) in English and 'chile' (CHEE-lay)

in Spanish for everything - the pepper, the dried powder, the dish (whether

soupy or thick, with (ugh!) or without (yum!) beans, etc.... I use these

pronunciations regardless of spelling.



Of course, there are North and South Chili ('chay-lie') New York (outside

Rochester), but that is another matter.



Dennis Preston (not a southwestern dialectologist)

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





>Dictionaries seem to list these as variant spellings, but I seem to

>recall from a cooking class I once took in Santa Fe that 'chile' refers

>to the pepper and the powder and 'chili' to some strange kind of soup

>made in Texas.

>

>Can any southwestern-savvy dialectologist come to my rescue?

>

>Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:51:36 +0100

From:  Barrera Pardo <dbarrera[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEINV.CESGA.ES>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Dear Mr. Shibles:



Could you send me a reprint?  My address is:



        Dario Barrera Pardo

        Dept. Filoloxia Inglesa

        Univ. de Vigo

        Apd 874  36200 Vigo

        SPAIN



Thank you indeed.



Best wishes,



DBP



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:21:56 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'chili' or 'chile'



>

>I personally always say 'chili' (chilly) in English and 'chile' (CHEE-lay)

>in Spanish for everything - the pepper, the dried powder, the dish (whether

>soupy or thick, with (ugh!) or without (yum!) beans, etc.... I use these

>pronunciations regardless of spelling.

>

>Of course, there are North and South Chili ('chay-lie') New York (outside

>Rochester), but that is another matter.

>

>Dennis Preston (not a southwestern dialectologist)

>preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



I am from Texas, but I may not be too savvy. However, I think that I

observe the English/Spanish distinction Dennis noted above.



The real question, of course, is what goes into the Texan soup. I went to

a chili cookoff/fiddle contest in San Marcos, TX, once. I saw a guy flay a

rattlesnake. One chili was called "outhouse chili" and had sow/pill/doodle

bugs in it. I did not necessarily see an appetizing array of things to

eat. I pitied the judges.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:26:15 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



>At least in Texas, when electrical power plants were built they also

>had banks of tubs in which ice was made in part of the building. Not

>many of them are still operating. The Southern Ice Company in Texarkana

>(Texas side) operates out of the old power plant building, but does not

>use the old tubs, nor is electricity generated there. I suspect that

>such practices were common throughout the country, and that cutting

>blocks of ice out of ponds and rivers was pretty well gone by the

>1920s.   DMLance



When I was a child, a nice, older, childless couple sort of adopted us as

surrogate grandparents. My surrogate grandfather grew up in New York City

and told me about skating on the Hudson and about watching ice being cut

from the river. This man died on his sixtieth birthday around maybe 1966,

1967, or 1968. Don's date accommodates this man's experience.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:54:39 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time.



As a (n inept but at The Mill, no one, including Keith Dempster, the

owner/boss, cared) waitress in a bar/restaurant in Iowa City, IA,

everyone used/knew bar time.



Bar time had two senses: the time that the bar ran on, which was ten

minutes earlier than real time

and

the time that the bar stopped serving liquor, which at that time, was

2:00 a.m.

The bartender called "Last call," at 1:50, bar time. At 2:00 a.m., the

bartender called "Time, folks." Because 2 a.m. bar time was 1:50 real time,

everyone had ten minutes to knock back whatever there was and collect

the glasses, etc., before 2 a.m. real time, the last moment when one

could be drinking legally in a bar.



And "bar time" was in use in Des Moines, IA, as well, although I can

only provide personal experience for the second sense. One summer, I

worked at the International House of Pancakes, which was open until

2 a.m. on Saturday night (i.e. Sunday morning). In Iowa, one could not

buy liquor on Sunday, and in Iowa, bars closed at 1 a.m. (real time) on

Saturday night. And while people might have a drink, as it were, or two,

on Friday nights, Saturdays were when they came in blotto because Sunday

was dry.

So we, the waitresses of the International House of Pancakes, and, I suspect,

we, the waitresses of anyplace were one wore a uniform and the patrons thought

a dollar bill was a big deal, knew the phrase "bar time" quite well,

because when the men came in and starting puking in their way to the booth,

we'd say, "Must be bar time."



(forgive the were for where, etc. i can't edit on this)

beth simon

Oh, for the character-building of working one's way through college



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 07:56:50 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: bar time ((mis)use of header)



A few moments ago, I used "reply" to reply to a bar time posting. Sorry,

I should have changed the header to just "bar time".



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:07:38 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Bar Time???



Bar time? Never heard it.



I've always heard "Last call" -- from my early bar-drinking days in

Fayetteville, AR (where at that time "bars" served only beer, because

likker by the drink was more wicked than likker by the bottle) down to

whenever I stopped being in bars that late, which was several years ago.

THE "bar" is Fayetteville was George's Majestic Lounge, always called

simply "George's." It was right by the rr tracks a few blocks from UA and

it was the only "bar" in walking distance of the U. Therefore, it was THE

grad student late-evening hangout. There was a story about a Ph.D.

student in lit. who, when invited by the oral exam. commiteee to step

out for a bit, walked straight to George's, where the comm. found him

eventually to congratulate him on having passed.



But my fav oral exam story is about the candidte who got so nervous during

oral exams that he wouldn't answer ANY questions. Eventually the

commm. congregated at a Friday evening party at Ben Kimpel's house on

a Fri. evening, watched the candidate drink enough to be relaxed, then

quietly surrounded him and proceeded to conduct the oral exam.

sub rosa. He passed.



Ah, Fayetteville. That was actually the sort of world I thought I

would be living in when I got a Ph.D.!



I obviously have not had enough coffee yet! Enough!



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:28:09 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city -Reply



>>> Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU> 10/2/95, 10:20

>In Philadelphia in the mid-70s people went to center city. I

>imagine that they still do.



Wayne:

Indeed we still do--in fact, I work in center city. However, center

city, for the most part, is the historical and business district.

Inner city implies a socioeconimic poverty and/or crime-ridden area

(to me at least). I've never heard "inner city" used to refer to a

specific region of Philly, but it is used as an adjective to describe

such areas (as North Philly, Kensington etc ...), e.g., inner-city

youth, inner-city school, etc.---as you said, more of a sociologic

term than a geographic one.



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:38:42 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time. -Reply



>>> C.A. Hoornstra <cah012[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK> 10/3/95, 05:52am >>>

>Here's a term that has caused confusion to people outside of

>Wisconsin:

>"bar time." It refers to the time that a bar closes. Thus, we would

>say,

>"When is bar time?" Does anyone else use this term?



We use "last call". Never heard of "bar time".



[born and raised rural central PA; now living in Philly; b 1968]



molly

"Hurry up, gentlemen, it's time."

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



CAHoornstra



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:34:16 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: phonetic spelling in high places -Reply



>i quote from the latest (october 1995) Notes of the

>Princeton Club of New York (p. 5):

>

>  GOING TO THE THEATER?

> Remember to try our special pre-fixe dinner

            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

> Saturday for only $19.95 plus...

>>--featuring, of course, subs (garnis)



Tangentially...

I was at a Chinese restaraunt yesterday that had this on the top of

the menu:



"A1 high-eating excellent. Hold your saliva please."



I collect such things--any others?



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:44:54 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: pronunciation note



I happened to notice that the traffic reporter this morning used the

word "albeit" (which I tend to think of as somewhat archaic), but he

pronounced it all-bite. It's possible he was reading it off someone

else's text and guessing, but it's also possible that this is how

some people are pronouncing it now. I _think_ he's from the

Midwest, based on how he pronounces "Newark," but that's only an

inference. Has anyone else heard this pronunciation? For that matter,

has anyone else heard (rather than read) the word "albeit" in

conversation or this sort of broadcast recently?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:24:53 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: phonetic spelling in high places



>

>  GOING TO THE THEATER?

> Remember to try our special pre-fixe din-

> ner in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

> Saturday for only $19.95 plus...

>



Arnold,



I guess the fixe is in at the Princeton Club.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:26:03 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Upstate NY



Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM> asks about the geographical limits of

"Upstate" with regard to NY State, suggesting that it might refer to anything

north of NYC out of daily commuting range. Larry Horn recalls that in his

youth, "upstate" began at Yonkers. While that may have been facetious,

Northern Westchester was definitely upstate. Vicki Rosenzweig concurs that the

northernmost reach of the commuter trains serves as the boundary of upstate.

Danielle Levitt points out that to people with a NYC orientation the city

limits might be the boundary of upstate, while to people living further north

in the Hudson Valley upstate doesn't start til Albany or so. Finally, Douglas

Bayer chimes in with the western NY perspective that upstate doesn't start

until Utica (a little west of Albany). While there may be four different

definitions of "Upstate" at work here (not surprising to those of us who grew

up in NY State), they have something in common. That is, nobody proposed a

definition of Upstate that includes their home. Now, I grew up in Central

Westchester (Pleasantville, probably about where Larry draws his line), and I

remember clearly thinking that that was Upstate; so, for me, upstate really

does start around the Yonkers line, probably about where the Westchester

busses meet the northern end of the NYC subway. The first time I encountered

substantial numbers of people who laughed at my view of upstate was when I

attended a summer program at Cornell (which is upstate by everybody's

definition, I would think). I was told I was wrong, upstate was really X,

where X=any one of the other definitions given above.



I think this would make a fascinating dialect project for someone at one of

the SUNY campusses (campi?) to assign their students over Thanksgiving or

Spring break (hint, hint).



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:00:48 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



We called it Senior Cut Day at my high school (Portland Or 1960s)

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, RENEA C BEELER wrote:



> >

> > When I was in high school(1987-1991), we always referred to unexcused

> > absences as "laying out". As a matter of fact, seniors were given a

> > designated day for unexcused absences,"senior lay-out day". We also used a

> > term, but not as

> > often," Hookey." My father used this term more than I did, however. In

> > the region that I am from, it seems the most accepted term by students

> > and teachers for unexcused abscences is"laying out."

> >

> > Paula R. Browning

> > Undergraduate

> > Morehead State University

> >

>

>     That's funny. My high school days (1989-1992) unexcused absences

> were referred to as a "cut". We also had a senior day. Seniors then,

> referred to it as "national cut" day. My mother uses the word "hookey" when I

> was in High school, but not as much now since I am in college.

>

> R.

>

> --

>

>     ________________________________  __________________________

>                     |   "Two men walking up a

>     Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

>     rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

>     Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

>                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

>     --------------------------------  --------------------------

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:03:47 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetic spelling in high places



And in not so high places. The Herald (Everett, WA) twice in the last month:



X, formally of [city],



Allen, formally of Portland OR,

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Arnold Zwicky wrote:



> i quote from the latest (october 1995) Notes of the

> Princeton Club of New York (p. 5):

>

>   GOING TO THE THEATER?

>  Remember to try our special pre-fixe din-

>  ner in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

>  Saturday for only $19.95 plus...

>

> arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:15:36 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time.



This is how I have always heard "bar time" and "last call" (often

"Last call for alcohol") used. I think the phrase "Last call for alcohol"

is from the old song "Hey, Bartender" done by The Blues Brothers, and others.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



> As a (n inept but at The Mill, no one, including Keith Dempster, the

> owner/boss, cared) waitress in a bar/restaurant in Iowa City, IA,

> everyone used/knew bar time.

>

> Bar time had two senses: the time that the bar ran on, which was ten

> minutes earlier than real time

> and

> the time that the bar stopped serving liquor, which at that time, was

> 2:00 a.m.

> The bartender called "Last call," at 1:50, bar time. At 2:00 a.m., the

> bartender called "Time, folks." Because 2 a.m. bar time was 1:50 real time,

> everyone had ten minutes to knock back whatever there was and collect

> the glasses, etc., before 2 a.m. real time, the last moment when one

> could be drinking legally in a bar.

>

> And "bar time" was in use in Des Moines, IA, as well, although I can

> only provide personal experience for the second sense. One summer, I

> worked at the International House of Pancakes, which was open until

> 2 a.m. on Saturday night (i.e. Sunday morning). In Iowa, one could not

> buy liquor on Sunday, and in Iowa, bars closed at 1 a.m. (real time) on

> Saturday night. And while people might have a drink, as it were, or two,

> on Friday nights, Saturdays were when they came in blotto because Sunday

> was dry.

> So we, the waitresses of the International House of Pancakes, and, I suspect,

> we, the waitresses of anyplace were one wore a uniform and the patrons thought

> a dollar bill was a big deal, knew the phrase "bar time" quite well,

> because when the men came in and starting puking in their way to the booth,

> we'd say, "Must be bar time."

>

> (forgive the were for where, etc. i can't edit on this)

> beth simon

> Oh, for the character-building of working one's way through college

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 08:50:46 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: metric or ...



> ... what do you call the system of measurement that

> americans use (i.e., the non-metric system). it seems to me i've

> heard "english", but this isn't in my dictionaries. ...



"customary"



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com

(no longer on the list; going over mail backlog)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:20:21 -0400

From:  Michael Elkins <MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM>

Subject: Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?



Have any of the rest of you used "laying out" for hookey or for

tanning?





--------



Used it as a term for tanning in central Texas.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:49:38 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetic spelling in high places -Reply



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Molly Dickmeyer wrote:



> >i quote from the latest (october 1995) Notes of the

> >Princeton Club of New York (p. 5):

> >

> >  GOING TO THE THEATER?

> > Remember to try our special pre-fixe dinner

>            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> > in the Woodrow Wilson Room Monday through

> > Saturday for only $19.95 plus...

> >>--featuring, of course, subs (garnis)

>

> Tangentially...

> I was at a Chinese restaraunt yesterday that had this on the top of

> the menu:

>

> "A1 high-eating excellent. Hold your saliva please."

>

> I collect such things--any others?

>

> molly

> dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com

>

 On an ad in Germany meant for English-speaking would-be users of a popular

patent medecine: "Try______. We guarantee you will never get any better."

 I also played in a band in Montreal whose lead singer's English wasn't

quite perfect; he insisted on designing our posters himself, though. One

of his slogans: "Welcome Home- One of Montreal's most exciting bands to be

seen!"

 How about Paul McCartney's famous line in "Live And Let Die": "In this e-

ver changing world in which we live in..."



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:20:04 CDT

From:  Erin McKean <emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Iceboxes



I use icebox pretty frequently, and I was born in 1971. I think

my mom uses it >70% of the time, and she was born in 1946. However,

she lived overseas for a long time as a child and probably didn't

have an electric refrigerator for more than a couple

of months at a time until the late 60s.



Anybody know when the electric refrigerator made it to Burma?

That might shed some light on this.



Erin McKean



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 11:17:06 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



"Downstreet" is a nice regionalism--chiefly New England and Upstate NY. See

DARE Vol 2.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 12:22:55 CDT

From:  Erin McKean <emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: downtown/inner city



I don't think there's much overlap in Chicago about downtown/inner city.

The "inner city" part seems to me to be west and south of the Loop,

while downtown is the Loop/Mag. Mile area.



Any other Chicagoans have the same feeling? Now that I live in

Logan Square I'm not spending as much time in the Loop.



Erin McKean



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 13:50:03 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Fwd: Re(2): downtown/inner city



_downstreet_ certainly is an interesting one for me. I live much closer to

New York City than to Albany. Yet, long-time residents and their children in

this suburb of New York City use _downstreet_ for the business section of Cold

Spring. We are located in the Hudson Highlands (right across the river from

West Point)--a mountainous region. There is no evidence recorded on the DARE

map (Vol. 2, p. 168) for the lower Hudson Valley. Is this a relic of some

sort or a attribute of some speech island?



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:19:09 -0400

From:  Abigail Sarah Margulies <asm16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Upstate NY



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, ALICE FABER wrote:



>

>....they have something in common. That is, nobody proposed a

> definition of Upstate that includes their home.





OK, I'll be the first to claim my roots as from upstate NY. A native of

Utica (until I escaped, a few years ago), I usually tell people that I

grew up "upstate" rather than try to explain where my relatively

small town is located.



For the record, I always felt that Utica was well into upstate NY.



Abbie



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:23:46 EDT

From:  Steven Heffner <74754.517[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Upstate NY



I grew up in Oneonta, NY--a place that is as indisputably upstate as Ithaca.

During a visit in Manhattan I told a woman on the subway that I was originally

from upstate and she said: "Oh, my son went to school upstate: The Bronx."



I hope this adds to the confusion.



Steven



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 15:19:15 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Upstate NY



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Abigail Sarah Margulies wrote:

> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, ALICE FABER wrote:

> >....they have something in common. That is, nobody proposed a

> > definition of Upstate that includes their home.

> OK, I'll be the first to claim my roots as from upstate NY. A native of

> Utica (until I escaped, a few years ago), I usually tell people that I

> grew up "upstate" rather than try to explain where my relatively

> small town is located.



Now the ice is broken I'll confess that I claim to live "in New

York--upstate", because plain old "NY" means "NYC" to many people.

Binghamton is 180 miles NW of Manhattan.



H Stephen STRAIGHT                Binghamton University (SUNY)

Dir, Langs Across the Curriculum    VOX: 607-777-2824  FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:40:30 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



> For that matter,

> has anyone else heard (rather than read) the word "albeit" in

> conversation or this sort of broadcast recently?



I sometimes use it in conversation.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 14:51:18 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?



"Laying out" is used at Auburn, too, and it surprised me when I first

heard it. (I'm from NY originally. I hadn't heard it in College

Station, Texas, where I lived for 20 years.)

Cindy Bernstein

Auburn, AL



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Michael Elkins wrote:



> Have any of the rest of you used "laying out" for hookey or for

> tanning?

>

>

> --------

>

> Used it as a term for tanning in central Texas.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 17:56:03 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



> A storyteller in the lower Hudson Valley has been having a bit of a debate

> with another person on the definition of upstate in New York. He grew up in

> Westcherster (I believe). That's the first county in New York State north of

> New York City. To residents of New York City and Westchester/Putnam County,

> where does upstate begin? Pick a town (or city) or other landmark. In terms

> of the linguistic atlas data, I suspect that the increase of territory in the

> commutershed of New York City has pushed the "line" north at least to

> Poughkeepsie on the eastern bank of the Hudson River. West of the Hudson

> River the "line" may be as close as Newburgh or even farther south.



well, to my mind, the lower hudson valley is not upstate--anything

south of albany (and not in the southern tier) is downstate. but

nobody asked us western new yorkers.



lynne, from newark, new york (NO! NOT NEW JERSEY!)



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 21:18:04 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Collecting things (I collect warnings)



Molly said:



"I

I

I was at a Chinese restaraunt yesterday that had this on the top of

the menu:



"A1 high-eating excellent. Hold your saliva please."



I collect such things--any others?"



I collect warnings, include those found in Chinese menus, such as:



            WARNING!

        Chinese Food Lovers

    Eating Any Selection From The Enclosed MENU

    Can Be Dangerously Habit Forming!



Bethany Dumas <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Oct 1995 to 3 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 61 messages totalling 1465 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. green/string beans (11)

 2. ?meaning (fwd)

 3. Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time.

 4. pronunciation note (6)

 5. phonetic spelling in high places -Reply

 6. phonetics of dialects (4)

 7. Lexical choice? (19)

 8. lexical choice

 9. metric or ... (3)

 10. Lexical choice? -Reply

 11. Bounced Mail

 12. icebox and upstate (4)

 13. Re(2): metric or ...

 14. pop/green/string beans (2)

 15. albeit

 16. Snapping Beans and Hulling Peas

 17. Lexical choice/string beans

 18. Switched Candy Names

 19. Upstate



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 18:58:54 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:



> I think this might just be a question of age - or the age of one's parents.

> Does this also apply to the string bean/green bean?

>

The New York Times still uses "string bean" -- one piece of evidence that

string bean holds on in at least oe part of the Northeast.



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 19:27:12 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?meaning (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 13:03:44 -0600 (CST)

From: hoppe008[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu <hoppe008[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu>

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: Re:?meaning



We have a patron that wants to know the meaning of the "apples of King

John." It appears in the last paragraph of the essay "The Whistle" by B.

Franklin. Have checked Slang/phrase/OED. Nothing. Does anyone have a

clue as to what old Ben might be referring to?

Nancy Greer hoppe008[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu

Minitex Reference Services

S-33 Wilson Library

309 19th Ave. S

University of MN

Mpls., MN 55455

800-462-5348

612-624-7873

fax: 612-624-4508



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 20:29:55 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences/ and bar time.



Sounds like "bar time" is the opposite of what, in certain southern

climes (and Northern, from what I've heard from African-American friends)

was called "CPT."

Cheers,

tlc



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



> As a (n inept but at The Mill, no one, including Keith Dempster, the

> owner/boss, cared) waitress in a bar/restaurant in Iowa City, IA,

> everyone used/knew bar time.

>

> Bar time had two senses: the time that the bar ran on, which was ten

> minutes earlier than real time

> and

> the time that the bar stopped serving liquor, which at that time, was

> 2:00 a.m.

> The bartender called "Last call," at 1:50, bar time. At 2:00 a.m., the

> bartender called "Time, folks." Because 2 a.m. bar time was 1:50 real time,

> everyone had ten minutes to knock back whatever there was and collect

> the glasses, etc., before 2 a.m. real time, the last moment when one

> could be drinking legally in a bar.

>

> And "bar time" was in use in Des Moines, IA, as well, although I can

> only provide personal experience for the second sense. One summer, I

> worked at the International House of Pancakes, which was open until

> 2 a.m. on Saturday night (i.e. Sunday morning). In Iowa, one could not

> buy liquor on Sunday, and in Iowa, bars closed at 1 a.m. (real time) on

> Saturday night. And while people might have a drink, as it were, or two,

> on Friday nights, Saturdays were when they came in blotto because Sunday

> was dry.

> So we, the waitresses of the International House of Pancakes, and, I suspect,

> we, the waitresses of anyplace were one wore a uniform and the patrons thought

> a dollar bill was a big deal, knew the phrase "bar time" quite well,

> because when the men came in and starting puking in their way to the booth,

> we'd say, "Must be bar time."

>

> (forgive the were for where, etc. i can't edit on this)

> beth simon

> Oh, for the character-building of working one's way through college

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 20:36:58 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



[snip]

 I _think_ he's from the

> Midwest, based on how he pronounces "Newark," but that's only an

> inference. Has anyone else heard this pronunciation?

> Vicki Rosenzweig



Is "Newark" pronounced there more like /nu WARK/, "new WORK", or

"NERK", or even "NEW ork"?

Thanks,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 3 Oct 1995 23:34:03 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



Yes, I have heard "albeit" used, and pronounced correctly. Unfortunately,

entirely too many paid announcers (and therefore supposed professionals)

don't know what the hell they're saying sometimes. Two of the more

egregious ones I've heard: in Indiana, a radio announcer referred to the

"B'nei Birth", and a TV anchor in Calif. noted the death of the author of

"Waiting for Godot" pronounced to rhyme with got it. Feh! (I don't watch

him anymore.)



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:17:01 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: phonetic spelling in high places -Reply



>> Tangentially...

>> I was at a Chinese restaraunt yesterday that had this on the top of

>> the menu:

>>

>> "A1 high-eating excellent. Hold your saliva please."

>>

>> I collect such things--any others?

>>

How about this, from a flyer from a Prague laundromat:

"In Prague for the time? Come and dry - you as well!"



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 05:40:57 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



what's this about the death of "albeit"? i use it all the time.

(and i assume i pronounce it "correctly").



as for newark, the newark in upstate new york is pronounced "new

work", but those of us who have suffered through it derisively call

it "nurk, nyurk."



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:05:41 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Please give me your postal address and I will send a reprint.

Warren. /sig



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:09:08 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Sorry, the last message was meant for E. Ballard. Warren. /sig



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:42:16 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Lexical choice?



Friends:



Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.



Thanks,



Bob Wachal



Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:



        Today I have to do the ______________________



(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

a machine)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 07:04:45 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>         Today I have to do the ______________________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)



If we're to fill in the blank only, without changing anything else in

the sentence, I can't answer. I would never say "do the" if I meant

wash clothes. I'd say "Today I have to wash clothes."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:05:46 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: lexical choice



i think bob wachal's student's fill-in-the-blank is going to bias its

answers:



today, i'm going to do the _________.



since you're forced into using a definite determiner, i would be more

likely to fill-in-the-blank with "wash"--but that's not what i would

say about my need to wash clothes--i'd say "today, i'm going to do

laundry." i'd be less likely to stick "laundry" in there, because

"the laundry" = the place that does washing for me (or a laundromat).



(for a while there was a trend to promote laundromats as singles

joints. so i suppose "doing the laundry" could take on a whole nother

meaning there.)



this is not to say that i can't use "the" with "laundry" meaning

'dirty clothes', but that would be in a case where the laundry in

question is more definite. when i "do laundry", i do whatever

laundry there is. i don't talk about doing "the laundry" because

the "the" makes it sound like it's something you can do and be done

with--but we know this is not true (unless you launder au naturelle,

there will be more laundry to do when you're done with "the" laundry).

the "the" makes it specific-- as in "the laundry you left at my house

is starting to smell".



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:09:50 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>Friends:

>

>Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Bob Wachal

>

>Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>        Today I have to do the ______________________

>

>(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

>a machine)



laundry, or damn laundry, or . . . never mind



"Wash" works, however.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:13:53 +0100

From:  "C.A. Hoornstra" <cah012[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



> Friends:

>

> Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Bob Wachal

>

> Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>         Today I have to do the ______________________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)

Born in 1970 and raised in Madison, WI:

Today I have to do the wash.



I'd be interested to hear the results of this survey.>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:19:13 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>Friends:

>

>Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Bob Wachal

>

>Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>        Today I have to do the ______________________

>

>(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

>a machine)



Today I have to do the laundry.

Perhaps if I didn't have to take it to the laundromat, I'd just say "do

laundry."



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:19:03 +0100

From:  "C.A. Hoornstra" <cah012[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



> Friends:

>

> Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Bob Wachal

>

> Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>         Today I have to do the ______________________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)

I'm sitting next to a Brit (from Plymouth) who would say:

Today I have to do the washing.>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:23:36 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



Arnold M. Zwicky, 63 W. Beaumont Rd., Columbus OH 43214.



many thanks,

 arnold



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:40:14 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



I would never say "do the laundry" but no other lexical choice works for

me in that slot. I'd say "do some laundry" or "wash some clothes".



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:42:41 +0100

From:  "C.A. Hoornstra" <cah012[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENTS.STIR.AC.UK>

Subject: Re: metric or ...



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:



> > ... what do you call the system of measurement that

> > americans use (i.e., the non-metric system). it seems to me i've

> > heard "english", but this isn't in my dictionaries. ...

>

> "customary"

>

> >

It's called the Imperial System.



But, the American gallon is different from the British gallon. (There are

other measurements that also differ, like the ton - but I'm not sure of

them all.)



Actually, the Imperial System is still more familiar than the metric

system is to some Brits. The UK has finally (within the last week) been

forced to discard the Imperial System and make a complete shift to the metric

system in order to be "compatible" with the EC. Many people (mostly the

older generations) feel that it will be a difficult task. For example,

although their speed limits are written using kph, the distances between

the cities, etc. have traditionally been measured in miles. Many butchers

and green grocers have had to buy new equipment and/or put up conversion

tables for themselves as well as their customers. It's just a matter of

getting used to, I suppose.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 07:50:42 CST

From:  Warren Shibles <shiblesw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWWVAX.UWW.EDU>

Subject: Re: phonetics of dialects



I have sent you a reprint. Warren /sig



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:00:52 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>Friends:

>

>Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Bob Wachal

>

>Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>        Today I have to do the

            Equal choices between wash and laundry.



Gut-wrenching introspection cannot reveal whch of these is more typical of

my vernacular; born 1940, E-A male, vast majority of significant childhood

(English) language acquisition in Louisville KY area.

>

>(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

>a machine)



Dennis R. Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:01:03 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



"Today I have to do the laundry."



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:26:32 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice? -Reply



"Today I have to do the___"

laundry

wash

washing

I use all of the above interchangeably, and somehow, the "the" must

be there, for me.

If I were going to a laundermat (laundromat...I've seen both, but

this is another question), I'd say "Today I have to go to the

laundermat" the implication being that there's no other reason to go

there than to do laundry (except maybe scope for dates, as someone

else suggested). I think that for me, what constitutes the most work

gets the most emphasis.



Thanks for all your responses to my chinese menu query. I really

needed some chuckles this week.



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:46:07 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



Newark New Jersey is properly (locally) pronounced as "New-urk,"

with the stress about equally on both syllables; this guy keeps

referring to "Nork Airport" (which I've been told is the Ohio

pronunciation: are there any Ohioans here who can confirm or

refute this?).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:06:08 EDT

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



  Today I have to do the ______________________



1. laundry (no problem with determiner)

2. washing

3. wash

4. [worshing]

5. [worsh]



Richard Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:12:51 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWOUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Today I have to do the wash.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:14:50 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:15:15 -0400

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from MOREHEAD-ST.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>7671 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> -------------- Message in error (47 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:06:37 -0400 (EDT)

> From: Michelle Horton <mehort01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu>

> Subject: Re: Lexical choice?

>

> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, wachal robert s wrote:

>

> > Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 06:42:16 -0500

> > From: wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

> > Subject: Lexical choice?

> >

> > Friends:

> >

> > Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

> > Bob Wachal

> >

> > Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

> >

> >         Today I have to do the ______________________

> >

> > (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> > a machine)

> >

>

>

> I would say-

> Today I have to do the laundry. However, the person on the computer next

> to me said he would do the wash. Funny, we're both from Southern Ohio.

> Perhaps this isn't a regional thing...

>

> Michelle

> mehort01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:06:46 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



Lynne writes,



>well, to my mind, the lower hudson valley is not upstate--anything

>south of albany (and not in the southern tier) is downstate. but

>nobody asked us western new yorkers.



Clearly, as we've been seeing, it's all relative--in fact we all seem to be

operating with maps in our heads corresponding to that famous Steinberg New

Yorker cover. But what I was particularly curious about was...



>Lynne, from newark, new york (NO! NOT NEW JERSEY!)



whether Lynne and her fellow-Newark(NY)ers disambiguate their home town the

way people in New-ARK, Delaware do. At least I assume the latter is one level

a conscious attempt to dissociate Newark, Del. from the "real" Newark, rather

than just a local practice on the level of CHAY-lie, NY (in Greece-Chili, the

suburb of Rochester), KAI-ro (Cairo) Illinois, BER-lin Conn., etc. (I suppose

the various BER-lins may be disambiguators too, especially if the pronunciation

shifted around 1914.)

  Does anyone happen to know if there's a treatment of this variety of taboo

avoidance?



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 07:18:36 PDT

From:  Joseph Jones <jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



         Today I have to do the ______________________



First thought was laundry, no problem with "the".

(Probably reflecting N.C. childhood 1950's)



Then I thought wash, and heard it in my wife's voice, no problem with

"the". (B.C. Canada)



--

Joseph Jones    jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unixg.ubc.ca

University of British Columbia Library



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:30:02 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



What do you mean "today"? Isn't it "everday"? We have a four-year-old and a

five-and-a-half-year-old in the house!



Today I have to do the laundry. (That's the one I usually use.)



However, I can also say:



Today I have to do the wash. (I think that's what my mom would have said.

She was born 1908 in s.w. Wisconsin.)



Regards,

David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:30:07 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:

>

> > I think this might just be a question of age - or the age of one's parents.

> > Does this also apply to the string bean/green bean?

> >

> The New York Times still uses "string bean" -- one piece of evidence that

> string bean holds on in at least oe part of the Northeast.

>

> Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



It was always string beans for me in Los Angeles--especially the thin

French cut.





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:40:26 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re(2): metric or ...



I would say: English system. It appears in the World Book Dictionary (260,000

entries) published in the USA, Webster's 10th Collegeate, and the Random House

Webster's College Dictionary.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:38:31 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 09:40:56 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



Re possible disambiguators:

    Oregon, WI--open o in last syllable

    Berlin WI--first syll stress



    and Beauford NC, vs Beauford SC. One is [bo] and one is [byu],

    but I don't remember which is which.



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:41:42 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: pop/green/string beans



> They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry





NO! NO! NO! NO! I grew up on pop! (Los Angeles)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:48:33 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



>

> > They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> > it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> > reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>

>

> NO! NO! NO! NO! I grew up on pop! (Los Angeles)

>

 NO NO NO NO NO I grew on coke! (Louisville)



--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:14:51 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



I have always refered to them as string beans.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> > On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:

> >

> > > I think this might just be a question of age - or the age of one's parents.

> > > Does this also apply to the string bean/green bean?

> > >

> > The New York Times still uses "string bean" -- one piece of evidence that

> > string bean holds on in at least oe part of the Northeast.

> >

> > Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu

>

> It was always string beans for me in Los Angeles--especially the thin

> French cut.

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:21:00 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



>

> They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>



In my idiolect, these are not lexical variants but can be semantically

differentiated. Actually , green bans might be a hyponym. But clearly,

string beans are beans that have a string to be removed when you snap

and clean them. Now snap beans and shellouts are other bean sentirely.

Then you have your kentucky wonders, your half runners, and your blue lake.

Those french cut things aren't green beans at all!





--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 08:27:56 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



Local disambiguators:



Moscow ID pronounced MOSko.

Des Moines WA pronounced De Moinz.



Allen

On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



> Re possible disambiguators:

>     Oregon, WI--open o in last syllable

>     Berlin WI--first syll stress

>

>     and Beauford NC, vs Beauford SC. One is [bo] and one is [byu],

>     but I don't remember which is which.

>

> beth

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:00:45 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



I and my two-year-old call them green beans, but my dad in Texas calls them

string beans. My in-laws in Central Georgia call them snap beans. Then

there is the confusion between pole beans (the big tough beans best boiled

for a while with some streak of lean) and green beans (the kind that you

can find in a can).



My grandmother's secret recipe called for green beans made out of green

pinto beans. They're kind of furry, and the bean inside is kind of purple.

 You'll need to grow them on poles.



O Kentucky Wonder! Bush beans but not Bush's beans.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:23:31 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



> They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably



Your wording suggests that one says either "pop" or "soda." To me "pop"

is a sound and "soda" is something mixed with scotch. I can't imagine

saying either of the above for something like a coke. Maybe that's why

I can't decide right now whether I say "green beans" or "string beans."

I think I usually say "green beans," although "string beans" strikes me

as equally normal. I would never, OTOH, say "green peas" for "english

peas."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 12:39:35 -0400

From:  "Winfield, Laurie" <lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RINET.HUNTON.COM>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



In central Virginia, they're just "snaps"!



lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hunton.com



 ----------

From: American Dialect Society

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

Subject: Re: green/string beans

Date: Wednesday, October 04, 1995 11:28AM



I have always refered to them as string beans.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> > On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:

> >

> > > I think this might just be a question of age - or the age of one's

parents.

> > > Does this also apply to the string bean/green bean?

> > >

> > The New York Times still uses "string bean" -- one piece of evidence

that

> > string bean holds on in at least oe part of the Northeast.

> >

> > Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu

>

> It was always string beans for me in Los Angeles--especially the thin

> French cut.

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:01:54 -0700

From:  Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



I recently saw "albeit" repeatedly italicized in a manuscript, as though

it were foreign. I can't guess how the author pronounces it; I'd think

that if the standard pronunciation is used it's clear that it's English.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 10:05:10 -0700

From:  Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



Today I do in fact have to do the laundry. "Wash" doesn't wash. I'm from

NW Indiana originally.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 11:31:15 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: albeit



This thread on "albeit" makes me wonder whether the [bayt] pronunciation

is patterned after the German "arbeit" (as in arbeit macht frie `work

makes free' [my apologies if I've spelled any of the German words wrong--

I don't profess to know German]). With the spellings and pronunciation

being so similar, it makes me wonder whether the person pronouncing it

that way had some knowledge of German.



Does anyone happen to know?



-Bruce



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 20:21:36 EST

From:  David Beach <BEACH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMC.CZ>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



My two cents (or 50 hellar) on this particular thread:

All over Europe, they are referred to by their French name, haricots

verts. Even on English-language menus, the French name is used.



I grew up in southern Virginia, and as someone previously mentioned,

they are referred to as snaps or snap beans. One of my greatest

childhood memories is sitting on the front porch on Monday

afternoons with my grandfather snapping 'em snap beans while he

smoked his cigars while my grandmother washed the clothes with Rinso

and cooked cabbage. Smell goes beyond the senses, you know. (Last

thought by Tony Kushner, not me!)



Cheers

An Ex-Pat in Central (not Eastern) Europe

 + David Beach * Business English * Czech Mgmt Center

 + namesti 5. kvetna 2 * 250 88 Celakovice * Czech Rep

 + ph: +42 202 891441 fax: +42 202 891997

 + "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks

 + the chief danger of our time." - John Stuart Mill



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 15:34:18 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Snapping Beans and Hulling Peas



It is easier to snap beans than to hull peas. I have never gotten the hang

of hulling peas. My grandmother could make them sound like rain in her

pot, though.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 13:54:00 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



Interesting, Larry. I eat string beans (like you) and chase them with

pop (unlike you).

tlc Montana/Washington state



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 17:11:21 -0400

From:  "J. Russell King" <JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice/string beans



Today I have to do the laundry.



And I've always called them green beans; I don't know that I ever heard

"string beans" until going to school in the East; they seem consistently to

be "string beans" here in New York City, among native colleagues and workers

in the cafeteria.



JRKing



(born 1954)

(grew up in southern Oklahoma)

(parents from Arkansas and southern Oklahoma)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:07:43 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, THOMAS CLARK wrote:



> [snip]

> I _think_ he's from the

> > Midwest, based on how he pronounces "Newark," but that's only an

> > inference. Has anyone else heard this pronunciation?

> > Vicki Rosenzweig

>

> Is "Newark" pronounced there more like /nu WARK/, "new WORK", or

> "NERK", or even "NEW ork"?

> Thanks,

> tlc

>

 I have an ex-girlfriend from Newark, OH originally, and she pronounces it

"NERK."



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:12:53 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



At 06:42 AM 10/4/95 -0500, you wrote:

>Friends:

>

>Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

>Thanks,

>

>Bob Wachal

>

>Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>        Today I have to do the ______________________

>

>(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

>a machine)

>

         Today I have to do the laundry (not "washing").



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:44:14 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Switched Candy Names



At 08:37 AM 9/30/95 -0400, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

>> I hope this switch hasn't already been mentioned.

>> I've heard that the Snickers and Milky Way bar are reversed in

>> England (and probably the rest of GB). In the US, the Snickers is

>> the one with nuts.

>

>in south africa, there is no milky way, but the mars bar doesn't have

>its almonds. snickers is as in u.s. when i said something to a

>class about the almondlessness of mars, one student (who had been to

>u.s.) said "the americans ruin everything with nuts." (pleasantly

>ambiguous statement on its own.)

>

>lynne

>

------------------------------------

    I'd like to go back to this earlier thread to report what a British

friend (male, early 30s, born and raised north of London, in this country

3-4 years) reported about British/GB and American candy bar names. I'm slow

replying, because he insisted on visiting candy stores to refresh his

memory. He says:

        Milky Way (UK) is similar to 3 Musketeers (US)

        Milky Way (US, regular) is quite like Mars Bar (UK)

        Snickers (UK) = Snickers (US)

        Haven't yet acquired Mars Bars (US)

He adds that all of these, he thinks, are made by Mars.



    Wonderful excuse to eat candy when next in London!



Virginia Clark

University of Vermont



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:42:57 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>

> Friends:

>

> Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Bob Wachal

>

> Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>         Today I have to do the Laundry_______________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)

>

I haven't read anyone else's responses... That's just what I've always

uttered!



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III



"It was electric

 So frightfully hectic.

 And the band was so soothing,

 And we all started grooving."

    Sweet

    Ballroom Blitz



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:07:04 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, THOMAS CLARK wrote:



> Interesting, Larry. I eat string beans (like you) and chase them with

> pop (unlike you).

> tlc Montana/Washington state

 Are you accomodating all the non-norwesters when you write 'Washington

state'? I never heard that phrase until I came to the Midwest. If you

mean the city with all the crime and where our government sits (some

might consider it redundant that I wrote both), ya say 'Washington D.C.

Also, "Vancouver" means the city in Washington that is really a suburb of

Portland. If ya mean the city in Canada, it's 'Vancouver B.C.' At least

that's what this Salemite says.

I drink pop and eat both green and string beans. String beans are a type

of green beans. String bgeans are the ones that are skinny, like strings!



>

> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:

>

> > They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> > it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> > reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:12:46 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



For me, it's 'do the laundry.' Out of curiosity, Natalie, what would you

say if you had sheets, towels etc to wash ,as well?

Fritz Juengling (Oregon, '63)





On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> >         Today I have to do the ______________________

> >

> > (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> > a machine)

>

> If we're to fill in the blank only, without changing anything else in

> the sentence, I can't answer. I would never say "do the" if I meant

> wash clothes. I'd say "Today I have to wash clothes."

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 18:20:34 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: metric or ...



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, C.A. Hoornstra wrote:



> On Tue, 3 Oct 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:

>

> > > ... what do you call the system of measurement that

> > > americans use (i.e., the non-metric system). it seems to me i've

> > > heard "english", but this isn't in my dictionaries. ...

> >

> > "customary"

That's what the _World Book_ gives. Both my dual system wrench sets say

'metric and SAE' with no indication of what SAE means. However, I remember

when I was into fixing bikes, the response to 'gimme a wrench' was

always "standard or metric?" Both my wife and a neighbor confirm

'standard' but have never heard the other terms mentioned.

Fritz Juengling

 > >

> > >

> It's called the Imperial System.

>

> But, the American gallon is different from the British gallon. (There are

> other measurements that also differ, like the ton - but I'm not sure of

> them all.)

>

> Actually, the Imperial System is still more familiar than the metric

> system is to some Brits. The UK has finally (within the last week) been

> forced to discard the Imperial System and make a complete shift to the metric

> system in order to be "compatible" with the EC. Many people (mostly the

> older generations) feel that it will be a difficult task. For example,

> although their speed limits are written using kph, the distances between

> the cities, etc. have traditionally been measured in miles. Many butchers

> and green grocers have had to buy new equipment and/or put up conversion

> tables for themselves as well as their customers. It's just a matter of

> getting used to, I suppose.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 19:58:19 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Upstate



When I posted my facetious comment about nobody having a definition of upstate

NY that includes where they're from, which several people have pointed out was

premature, I meant to imply that I consider myself to be from upstate NY,

having been born and raised in central Westchester. I gather though that those

from the Great and/or Finger Lakes regions (North-West Upstate?) disagree. At

least I was raised north of the Downstate Medical Center!



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:42 -0400

From:  Crissie Trigger <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: metric or ...



>That's what the _World Book_ gives. Both my dual system wrench sets say

>'metric and SAE' with no indication of what SAE means. However, I remember

>when I was into fixing bikes, the response to 'gimme a wrench' was

>always "standard or metric?" Both my wife and a neighbor confirm

>'standard' but have never heard the other terms mentioned.

>Fritz Juengling

> > >



SAE is Society of American Engineers and measures in inches and parts of an

inch.

Use those wrenches on Chevys (or is it Chevies? What say people?)



Being a name brand person I always drank Coke or Pepsi, never pop. I was a

former drugstore cowboy who hung out at a soda fountain, where I drank chocolate

cokes and ice cream sodas. When I lived in Newark, I hung out at the candy

store

and drank egg creams. A candy store had a soda fountain and sold candy and

magazines

and comic books. The also had pin ball machines.An egg cream can only be

made in New York or New Jersey, and

although it consists of merely chocolate syrup, milk (or half and half or

sometimes a bit of whip cream), and seltzer, there is a secret way of

combining it all, having to do with putting the seltzer nozzle on a fast

power spray which agilely having it hit

the back, then the front of the spoon, while stirring.

I have a friend from Boston who always said pop or tonic when referring to

sodas,

and would get all over me if I referred to music without words as a song.

He insisted those should be called a tune.



I have never willingly drunk Coke since the New Coke fiasco. I switched to

Pepsi.

I have never eaten green, string or any pods successfully (I'm allergic to

them),

but we do have a local varmint in south Florida they call pole beans, but

somebody

else would have to tell you what they are.



I have a long held theory that NO ONE can pronounce the name of the place

they are

from. It is the ultimate shibboleth. I spent my first eight years 1944-1952 in

Newark, NJ (pronuonced Newrk or Noork). When I moved to Miami, I found the

real

natives pronounce it My-Ammuh, and based on some historical reading I've been

doing lately appears to originate from an extinct Indian tribe.

Also consider New Yawk, New Joisy, Chicahgo, and New Awlins (pronounced by real

natives as N'Olins.) You can tell real natives of New Orleans because the don't

say hello, they say "Where y'at?" Or the more familiar and profane "Where y'at

mother?" They eat Po' boy sandwiches, red beans and rice and beignets instead of

donuts. The blackened redfish recipe popularized by chef Paul Proudhomme (K

Paul)

caused the redfish to become an endanged species, but blackened fish is still

popular in yuppie restaurants where the customers don't realize it's just a

euphemism

for "burned." The backwoods bayou Cajuns I knew simply had gotten too drunk

on too

many bers,let the skillet get red hot, and threw in the fish as an

afterthought. The

tabasco sauce was necessary because their tastbuds were also burnt. By the

way, a

legitimate study found that people who ate raw oysters (as all the Cajuns

do) with

beer and tabasco sauce, never get sick from them. They eat mudbugs there too

(crawfish).



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:45 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



>Lynne writes,

>

>>well, to my mind, the lower hudson valley is not upstate--anything

>>south of albany (and not in the southern tier) is downstate. but

>>nobody asked us western new yorkers.

>

>Clearly, as we've been seeing, it's all relative--in fact we all seem to be

>operating with maps in our heads corresponding to that famous Steinberg New

>Yorker cover. But what I was particularly curious about was...

>

>>Lynne, from newark, new york (NO! NOT NEW JERSEY!)

>

>whether Lynne and her fellow-Newark(NY)ers disambiguate their home town the

>way people in New-ARK, Delaware do. At least I assume the latter is one level

>a conscious attempt to dissociate Newark, Del. from the "real" Newark, rather

>than just a local practice on the level of CHAY-lie, NY (in Greece-Chili, the

>suburb of Rochester), KAI-ro (Cairo) Illinois, BER-lin Conn., etc. (I suppose

>the various BER-lins may be disambiguators too, especially if the pronunciation

>shifted around 1914.)

>  Does anyone happen to know if there's a treatment of this variety of taboo

>avoidance?

>

>Larry

>



For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

which is

pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas. Which of course led to the age-old

question: Is the capitol of Kansas pronuonced Witchitaw or Wicheeta? A geography

gold star to the "correct" answer.



Seth Sklaey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:23:56 -0400

From:  Aaron Drews <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



> Friends:

>

> Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Bob Wachal

>

> Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>         Today I have to do the ______________________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)

>

    Me, I have to do the (dirty) laundry. My friends in Britain,

they have to do the washing (generally at a launderette... a word I have

never heard on this side of the pond).



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 4 Oct 1995 23:49:20 -0400

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



> Then I thought wash, and heard it in my wife's voice, no problem with

> "the". (B.C. Canada)

>

I have no problem with "the" either but I would never use it. Today I

will do laundry or wash some clothes.



The "the" reminds me of another collocation that drives me crazy,



"I am working on the diss"



as if it is the only one ever written. I prefer "my" over "the."



Al Futrell

-- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Oct 1995 to 4 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 29 messages totalling 615 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Lexical choice? (8)

 2. Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?

 3. green/string beans (4)

 4. icebox and upstate (3)

 5. Upstate

 6. contributing to discussions (2)

 7. Lexical choice? -Reply

 8. Re(2): Fastest word to dictionaries (was Re: Origin of 'AIDS'

 9. Hello (3)

 10. pronunciation note

 11. Another Lexical Item (3)

 12. Gold Wave



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 05:05:34 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



> For me, it's 'do the laundry.' Out of curiosity, Natalie, what would you

> say if you had sheets, towels etc to wash ,as well?



I would still say "wash clothes" -- unless I had some reason to specify

the specific nature of what I was washing. I might, for example, say

something like "Now that all my houseguests have finally left, I have

to wash a ton of sheets and towels." But I would normally just say "I

have to wash clothes." Sort of like I might specify for some reason that

I'm about to go get a Pepsi, although I normally would just say "a coke."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



P.S. Am I the only one here who says "wash clothes" instead of "to the

laundry/wash/whatever"?? I have never thought of this as an idiolectal

habit. I thought it was "normal."



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:15:28 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Laying Out: Hookey or Tanning?



I used "laying out" for playing hookey (although of course I never did!)

as well as for tanning.



Merri Lisa

Ohio University



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:27:45 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



My fill-in-the-blank word is: "laundry."



Merri Lisa

Ohio University

originally from Georgia (if that's relevant in any way)





On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



> Friends:

>

> Please respond to this post I received from a former student of mine.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Bob Wachal

>

> Sort of an ADS-L Question for you:  Fill in the blank in the following:

>

>         Today I have to do the ______________________

>

> (meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

> a machine)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:32:27 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as though

> it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This presumably

> reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>

I say green beans, and I don't say "pop" or "soda" but rather "coke"--a

phenomenon I hear is common to Southerners. Although I have to admit that

since I moved to Ohio I have started saying "soda" to avoid the looks and

because "pop" sounds to me like something out of "Happy Days"--no offense.



Merri Lisa

Ohio University



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:32:47 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



In Message Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:45 -0400,

 Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET> writes:



>

>For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

>which is

>pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas. Which of course led to the age-old

>question: Is the capitol of Kansas pronuonced Witchitaw or Wicheeta? A geography

>gold star to the "correct" answer.

>

>Seth Sklaey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>coconut Grove, FL



The correct pronunciation of the capital of Kansas is Tuhpeekuh (Topeka),

where I spent some of my formative years and visited the capitol. My

father went to college in Suhlainuh, to Kansas Wesleyan.



Luanne



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:13:49 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWOUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Upstate



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



My first wife's parents, immigrants during the 20's from Bavaria, lived in NY

and built a weekend place in northern Westchester near Somers; they always

referred to it as "the country" rather than upstate--which was further north up

the Taconic State Pkwy. Their immigrant status is important because they would

have picked up the contemporary usage rather than relied on any previous usage.

They did have friends who built a place is Asconia, near the tri-state border of

Mass/Conn/NY, and they were said to be upstate. In those days trains went

beyond Brewster, so it couldn't be based on the difference between

commuters/ non-commuters. I suggest that the city / suburban / exurban

distinctions are, however, economic at heart. Upstate is where the local

economy is not dependent on the city. I'd look at the newspaper rack to see if

the NY or Albany papers are given prominence (or a Poughkeepsie paper?) Or to

see where the distributors are located: is it union news or what? You get the

idea!



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:37:11 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote:



> In Message Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:45 -0400,

>  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET> writes:

>

> >

> >For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

> >which is

> >pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas. Which of course led to the age-old

> >question: Is the capitol of Kansas pronuonced Witchitaw or Wicheeta? A geography

> >gold star to the "correct" answer.

I had always heard the question in reference to Louisville, KY. Are

there other variations to this joke?



> >

> >Seth Sklaey

> >Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

> >coconut Grove, FL

>

> The correct pronunciation of the capital of Kansas is Tuhpeekuh (Topeka),

> where I spent some of my formative years and visited the capitol. My

> father went to college in Suhlainuh, to Kansas Wesleyan.

>

> Luanne

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:44:17 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> P.S. Am I the only one here who says "wash clothes" instead of "to the

> laundry/wash/whatever"?? I have never thought of this as an idiolectal

> habit. I thought it was "normal."





No, I say "wash clothes"--but I also say "do laundry" and "do the

laundry." I am a hopeless linguistic mongrel I'm afraid.



Kate



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 08:44:52 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:



> I drink pop and eat both green and string beans. String beans are a type

> of green beans. String bgeans are the ones that are skinny, like strings!



WOW -- d'ju hear that, Wayne? Nobody who's spent hours snappin' those

beans with mama would EVER take 'string beans' to be metaphorical for

skinny ones. It refers to that dadburned string that if you don't take it

out, you or your loved ones will be crunchin' strings in your mouth

instead of savoring the beans.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 15:58:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: contributing to discussions



I've been subscribed to this list for over a week now and have attempted to

participate in several of the discussions.



However, it doesn't appear to me that any of my contributions have been

circulated among the group. I never see them (but I assumed that perhaps

one's own contributions are somehow filtered out). And I never see any

reference to any of the ones I have sent in.



I have responded by simply sending in my messages via the "reply" command in

my e-mail, which goes to the "owner-ads" address. Is this not the correct way

to do it? Please advise.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

International Service for National

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:00:09 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



>On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:

>

>> I drink pop and eat both green and string beans. String beans are a type

>> of green beans. String bgeans are the ones that are skinny, like strings!

>

>WOW -- d'ju hear that, Wayne? Nobody who's spent hours snappin' those

>beans with mama would EVER take 'string beans' to be metaphorical for

>skinny ones. It refers to that dadburned string that if you don't take it

>out, you or your loved ones will be crunchin' strings in your mouth

>instead of savoring the beans.



I heard it but was too busy to respond.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 10:59:10 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



True, that's one of the drawbacks of them learning how to dress and undress

themselves. Mine does it several times a day. But it takes a lot of those

little clothes to fill up the basket.



      I always say do the laundry.



              b. 1959 Atlanta, GA



Ellen Johnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



>From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 4-OCT-1995 09:26:13.17

>Subj: RE: Lexical choice?

>

>What do you mean "today"? Isn't it "everday"? We have a four-year-old and a

>five-and-a-half-year-old in the house!

>

>Today I have to do the laundry. (That's the one I usually use.)

>

>However, I can also say:

>

>Today I have to do the wash. (I think that's what my mom would have said.

>She was born 1908 in s.w. Wisconsin.)

>

>Regards,

>David K. Barnhart

>Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:17:34 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Gregory <WPODOM1.AGCOM.EGREGORY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU>

Subject: Lexical choice? -Reply



Today I have to do the laundry.



and sometimes, more generically,



Today I have to do laundry.



But it seems that, to refer to this activity, "washing clothes" is more

natural to me than "doing laundry."



Born 1962, Montgomery, Alabama



Elizabeth Gregory

Assistant Professor and Extension Communications Specialist

Texas Agricultural Extension Service

Texas A&M University



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:39:34 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



I "do laundry."

My mother, incidentally, used to "do the wash."







>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>P.S. Am I the only one here who says "wash clothes" instead of "to the

>laundry/wash/whatever"?? I have never thought of this as an idiolectal

>habit. I thought it was "normal."

>



That reminds me of the phrase my mother used to use for grocery shopping:

"food-shopping."

No one I know now uses this phrase.

Anyone heard it?

(My mother was born and raised in Baltimore, 1946. I've lived in

and around Chicago my whole life.)

Kathleen M. O'Neill

Language Laboratory Technician I

University of Illinois at Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:45:17 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> That reminds me of the phrase my mother used to use for grocery shopping:

> "food-shopping."

> No one I know now uses this phrase.

> Anyone heard it?



Yes, it's not uncommon among native Texans I know. It used to sound odd

to me but I've grown to appreciate the specificity.



Kate Catmull              kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 12:36:57 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: contributing to discussions



> However, it doesn't appear to me that any of my contributions have been

> circulated among the group. I never see them (but I assumed that perhaps

> one's own contributions are somehow filtered out). And I never see any



You do receive copies of your own postings unless you've sent the 'norepro'

command to the listserv. The default setting for this list is 'repro'.



> I have responded by simply sending in my messages via the "reply" command in

> my e-mail, which goes to the "owner-ads" address. Is this not the correct way

> to do it? Please advise.



Unless there's something weird about your system, replies should go to

ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu. Look at the 'Reply-to' line in the headers of

your postings.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:34:04 -0400

From:  Barnhart <Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM>

Subject: Re(2): Fastest word to dictionaries (was Re: Origin of 'AIDS'



When the entry for _sputnik_ was dramatically added to _The Thorndike-Barnhart

Comprehensive Dictionary_ (Oct. 1957), the space for it came at the expense of

the entries for _spur wheel_ which was deleted and _squad car_ which was

reduced from three lines to one.



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:11:19 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



My favorite (from S. LA): "make groceries" for "go buy groceries"



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 14:22:26 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



Today I have to do the laundry.



"the" is just fine

Cindy Bernstein

Auburn, AL

(raised in New York [Long Island])



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:15:09 -0400

From:  Eric Armstrong <armstrn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UWINDSOR.CA>

Subject: Hello



Hello one and all. I am a teacher of voice and speech for actors, which

means I am coaching actors how to learn new dialects. I thought I would

join ADS-L to catch up on what's happening here...



I am particularly interested because I am trying to set up a resource for

dialect samples using the internet. I figure an FTP site would be the best

thing, and the university is helping set up a pilot project. I am wondering

if there is anything like this out there - site where you can download

sound samples. I really need to look into the "music" web sites because you

can download songs and things like that, or so I have heard.



If anyone knows of sites for this kind of thing, ESPECIALLY anything about

dialects, I would love to hear about it (and so would most of the people on

the list....). I am also looking for any web resources about learning IPA,

or if anyone uses asciipa on a regular basis and whether they have any

comments to make about its praciticality. On the voice and speech teacher's

association list, VASTAVOX, we have discussed it and find that we are using

it more than we thought we would. Darn ascii! Though it doesn't really cut

it, it seems to be better than nothing.



Finally I am trying to find some sort of software (shareware or ideally

freeware) that will let me edit sound samples and reformat them as .wav .au

.snd or .aiff formats so people can use them. The problem with an internet

dialect sample site is the size of samples. If anyone has any hints on how

I can keep samples short and sweet, I would be VERY happy to hear from you.



Thank you very much from a new member to the list.



Eric Armstrong

--------------------------

The New Voice Guy at

The School of Dramatic Art

University of Windsor

(519) 253-4232 ext 2811



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 16:32:27 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation note



TV announcers (and maybe copy-preparers) like to show that they are

educated. When Brunei was in the news recently, I think all the newscasters

I heard assumed that German spelling was at work. You know, "ei" is

pronounced "eye." I've known people from there, and they said "ay-ee",

which is what I'd assume from history. Maybe the news people can get

the locals to clean up their phonetics.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 17:53:04 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Hello



Eric, be sure to check SCI.LANG. They frequently discuss dialects and

pronounciations. At one point, someone posted a "WAVE," which evidently

enabled some of the participants to actually hear a pronounciation of another

participant. I don't remember who it was, but ask Rich Wales

(richw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]opentext.com) or Paul J. Kriha (kriha_p[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]actrix.gen.nz) and they may be

able to help you.



Cindie Moore

Attorney at Law

Arlington, VA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 18:12:30 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



In a message dated 95-10-04 22:54:08 EDT, you write:



Which of course led to the

>age-old

>question: Is the capitol of Kansas pronuonced Witchitaw or Wicheeta? A

>geography

>gold star to the "correct" answer.

>

>Seth Sklaey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>coconut Grove, FL

>

>

Neither. The capital of Kansas is pronounced TO-PEE-KA.



Cindie Moore

Attorney at Law

Arlington, VA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:11:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello



> Finally I am trying to find some sort of software (shareware or ideally

> freeware) that will let me edit sound samples and reformat them as .wav .au

> .snd or .aiff formats so people can use them. The problem with an internet



I've transferred sound files between .wav and .au with a program called

Goldwave that I found in an ftp archive somewhere. I just did an archie

search for it, however, and didn't turn up copies of it anywhere. That's

strange. I haven't done much ftp roaming lately and am not even sure what

the best sites are these days. Is wuarchive.wustl.edu still in business?

That was my main ftp site for a long time.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:11:28 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Dan Alford wrote:



> On Wed, 4 Oct 1995, Charles F Juengling wrote:

>

> > I drink pop and eat both green and string beans. String beans are a type

> > of green beans. String bgeans are the ones that are skinny, like strings!

>

> WOW -- d'ju hear that, Wayne? Nobody who's spent hours snappin' those

> beans with mama would EVER take 'string beans' to be metaphorical for

> skinny ones.

You're right-- I haven't spent hours snappin' those things with mama; it

was my gramma who made me rack up all those hours!

FJ



 It refers to that dadburned string that if you don't take it

> out, you or your loved ones will be crunchin' strings in your mouth

> instead of savoring the beans.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:21:36 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Another Lexical Item



Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

parallel to the street, of course.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 19:29:33 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



The sidewalk leading to our front door is the front walk.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 21:38:29 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:

> The sidewalk leading to our front door is the front walk.



Absolutely, not "sidewalk" or "walkway".



H Stephen STRAIGHT             Binghamton University (SUNY)

Dir, Langs Across the Curric    VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 20:39:20 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Gold Wave



Somebody just sent me word on where the latest version of Gold Wave is:

ftp.coast.net

SimTel/win3/sound/gldwav30.zip

It's on the web at http://web.cs.mun.ca/~chris3/goldwave/goldwave.html

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Oct 1995 to 5 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 66 messages totalling 1628 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Lexical choice? (6)

 2. Switched Candy Names (2)

 3. place names (7)

 4. green/string beans (2)

 5. Mondegreens (4)

 6. Hello

 7. icebox and upstate (2)

 8. sidewalk vs. walkway

 9. Another Lexical Item (13)

 10. wav/sox/? (2)

 11. Mondegreens -Reply (5)

 12. Hello gumshoes!

 13. All The Way

 14. Another Restaurant Story

 15. greens [was:] Mondegreens -Reply

 16. Creswell/Gangway (2)

 17. another thread (9)

 18. another thread -Reply

 19. Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra (3)

 20. Another Pullet Surprise item (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:13:16 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>

>        Today I have to do the ____laundry__________________

>

>(meaning a pile of dirty clothes that should become clean with water & soap in

>a machine)



r mckinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:13:45 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Switched Candy Names



>

>    Wonderful excuse to eat candy when next in London!



Some research is definitely more fun than other research. Does it have

calories if you're eating it strictly for research/scientific purposes?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:14:11 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: place names



>

>For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

>which is

>pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas.



Salinas, CA is pronounced suhLEEnis.



There's also Galveston, Indiana with the stress on the VES.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:13:24 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



One of the reasons I posed the question - is that in this case science and

bioengineering had a hand in making the change. They always used to be

string beans until they were bred to have no or at least fewer strings.

After that, the growers insisted on "green" rather than "string" - since

presumably they removed the offending stringy parts.



Obviously, from all the replies, string beans are still out there - stringy

or not.



Re the comment on haricot verts - they exist here too - but they refer to

the really really skinny green beans about 2-3 inches long.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 01:30:09 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: place names



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:



> >

> >For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

> >which is

> >pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas.

>

> Salinas, CA is pronounced suhLEEnis.

>

> There's also Galveston, Indiana with the stress on the VES.

>

> Rima

>

    Palestine, Texas (Pal-e-STEEN)

    Arkansas City, Kansas -- (Ar-KAN-sas) or just Ark City



Steve Russell

juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sawdust.cvfn.org



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 02:26:57 EDT

From:  Stephanie Hysmith <hysmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Mondegreens



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Oct-1995 02:07am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Stephanie Hysmith             Dept: English

     HYSMITH                 Tel No: 614-593-2743



Subject: Mondegreens





I just discovered Pullet Surprise in Fromkin and Rodman and so was pleased to

recognize the term in the recent discussion and delighted to learn about the

demise of Lady Mondegreen. It reminded me of a medical journal article that

listed some of the self-diagnosed illnesses of emergency room patients.

    Very-close veins

    roaches of the liver

    sick-as-hell anemia

are all I can recall. I have a new one from my neighbor, though. He was

telling me about someone suffering from oldtimer's disease. Makes sense to me!



Stephanie Hysmith

Ohio University









Received: 06-Oct-1995 02:26am



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 Oct 1995 23:34:03 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro <david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHN-WHORFIN.ICS.UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Hello



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995 17:53, "Cynthia L. Moore" writes:



> Eric, be sure to check SCI.LANG. They frequently discuss dialects and

> pronounciations. At one point, someone posted a "WAVE," which evidently

> enabled some of the participants to actually hear a pronounciation of another

> participant. ...



More precisely, a ".wav". That would be my recommendation to Eric,

as well. wav files are a PC audio format; they are relatively

compact, and extremely widespread. Using wav files will probably

allow the greatest number of your visitors to use the files directly;

those of us who use other formats are as likely to be able to convert

from wav as from any other format. You might want to provide pointers

to conversion utilities -- it'll sure take less disk space than

redundant copies of sound files in multiple formats.



(This might be an appropriate place for me to put a plug in for 'sox',

a wonderful audio conversion program for Unix (at least), available in

all the usual places, ftp://ftp.std.com/customers3/src/sound for one.)



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 00:31:38 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro <david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHN-WHORFIN.ICS.UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



On Tue, 3 Oct 1995 02:24, "Donald M. Lance" writes:



> I suspect that [combinations of ice houses and electric power

> plants] were common throughout the country, and that cutting

> blocks of ice out of ponds and rivers was pretty well gone by the

> 1920s.   DMLance



I can't claim personal experience, but I'll second the esteemed

Prof. Lance on this one, anyway. Let us turn to our hymnals

(What? You don't have a copy? Get thee to a library, and take

unto thyself ``The Social Shaping of Technology'', Donald MacKenzie

and Judy Wajcman, wherein appears Ruth Schwartz Cowan's ``How the

refrigerator got its hum'' -- a rollicking good read).



    [Preparatory to telling us how refrigeration came to the home,

    Cowan briefly discusses its precursor, commercial refrigeration:]



    As a result of [extensive research and invention],

    manufactured ice became available throughout the

    southeastern United States by 1890 and throughout the

    northeast (where natural ice was more readily

    available through much of the year) by 1910. ...

    Before the nineteenth century had turned into the

    twentieth, meat packers were using mechanical

    refrigeration in the handling and processing of meat,

    cold-storage warehouses had begun to appear in cities,

    icemen were carrying manufactured ice through the

    streets, and refrigerated transport (which utilized

    manufactured ice in railroad cars and refrigerating

    machines on ocean-going vessels) was becoming

    increasingly common and less expensive. (p. 204)



It's all I can to do keep from typing in the next paragraph, which

discusses how large commercial refrigerators were ("a substantial

number of them weighed from one hundred to two hundred tons") and

how an entire industry developed just to keep them in line ("As

automatic controls were primitive, the machine was tended day and

night by skilled operators"). Comparing the turn-of-the-century

behemoths with their modern domestic descendants, I'm reminded of

the "electronic brains", tended by white-coated lab technicians in

the Holy of Holies, the Machine Room, and their smaller, fleeter

descendants (the things I look after all day at work :-)



ObLx: I may be biased, but I think computing has generated a

fairly rich jargon/slang/technical vocabulary. (I'm not lumping

those categories together -- computing is rich in all three.)

But where were the refrig-hackers, breaking into ice houses? The

over-worked transportation analogies? (The Chilled Canal? The

Eisbahn?) At first, the sexiness of computers and the prosaic

character of refrigeration seems a given. But when you consider

how both started in remote, industrial research-y arenas, and

developed into ubiquitous features of daily life, the question

does not seem as far-fetched. So, why *didn't* refrigeration

catch the popular linguistic fancy?



--------

      David Harnick-Shapiro   Internet: david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu

Information and Computer Science   UUCP: ...!{ucbvax,zardoz}!ucivax!david

University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:59:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: sidewalk vs. walkway



(I think I have now figured out how to get messages through. Let's see if

this one shows up.)



Born and raised in Utah, we always referred to the paved area for walking

that ran parallel to the road as the "sidewalk." (And it had to be

paved--usually with concrete. I remember how excited we were when I was about

10 and the city put sidewalks in on our street.)



To me, a "walkway" would be broader than a sidewalk and would be someplace

like an open shopping plaza.



The "sidewalk" leading to the front door would have to be the "front walk."

By definition, a sidewalk would have to be for walking along the street.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

International Service for National

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 05:40:07 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



> Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

> to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

> door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

> a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

> I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

> other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

> When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

> front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

> for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

> parallel to the street, of course.)

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



"sidewalk" is another thing that i didn't realize was an americanism

til i moved here. the brit/sa english is "pavement"--which i have a

hard time with, b/c they're often brick and, to me, a pavement is

concrete.



if i said "it's on the sidewalk" i'd mean the parallel one--if i

meant the one coming up to the door, i'd be more specific "it's on

the sidewalk to the house" or some such thing. i might use "walk"

or something for the one coming to the house.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 05:51:49 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: icebox and upstate



>In Message Wed, 4 Oct 1995 22:49:45 -0400,

> Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET> writes:

>

>>

>>For my two cents I will add Salina, Kansas and Salinas, California, one of

>>which is

>>pronounce Saleena, and the othe Sal-I-nas. Which of course led to the age-old

>>question: Is the capitol of Kansas pronuonced Witchitaw or Wicheeta? A

geography

>>gold star to the "correct" answer.

>>

>>Seth Sklarey

>>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>>coconut Grove, FL

>

>The correct pronunciation of the capital of Kansas is Tuhpeekuh (Topeka),

>where I spent some of my formative years and visited the capitol. My

>father went to college in Suhlainuh, to Kansas Wesleyan.

>

>Luanne

>



You get the gold star!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:06:19 +0100

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



To me, the sidewalk runs parallel to the street and the walk, or front

walk, leads to the front door. Of course, the gangway is what runs along

the side of the house to the backyard.

Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:05:48 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



>> Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

>> to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

>> door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

>> a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

>> I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

>> other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

>> When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

>> front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

>> for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

>> parallel to the street, of course.)

>>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

>"sidewalk" is another thing that i didn't realize was an americanism

>til i moved here. the brit/sa english is "pavement"--which i have a

>hard time with, b/c they're often brick and, to me, a pavement is

>concrete.

>

>if i said "it's on the sidewalk" i'd mean the parallel one--if i

>meant the one coming up to the door, i'd be more specific "it's on

>the sidewalk to the house" or some such thing. i might use "walk"

>or something for the one coming to the house.

>

>lynne

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

>Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

>University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

>Johannesburg 2050

>SOUTH AFRICA

>

>

How about boardwalk and broadwalk?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:08:17 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



>Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

>to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

>door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

>a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

>I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

>other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

>When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

>front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

>for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

>parallel to the street, of course.)

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



"Sidewalk" works for me, although I've been talking lately of making a

"walk" with bricks from the porch to the gravel parking area. A "walkway"

has to be above the ground for me. When I was a child, my suburban house

in San Antonio had a concrete driveway (low sign, cf. Fussell) that led to

a sidewalk parallel to the street. But we would have called the concrete

strip that led from the neighbor's house to the sidewalk a sidewalk too.

It never occurred to me before that a sidewalk was on the side of anything.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:10:52 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



>          Ohio University Electronic Communication

>

>

>  Date: 06-Oct-1995 02:07am EST

>

>   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )

>

>  From: Stephanie Hysmith             Dept: English

>     HYSMITH                 Tel No: 614-593-2743

>

>Subject: Mondegreens

>

>

>I just discovered Pullet Surprise in Fromkin and Rodman and so was pleased to

>recognize the term in the recent discussion and delighted to learn about the

>demise of Lady Mondegreen. It reminded me of a medical journal article that

>listed some of the self-diagnosed illnesses of emergency room patients.

>    Very-close veins

>    roaches of the liver

>    sick-as-hell anemia

>are all I can recall. I have a new one from my neighbor, though. He was

>telling me about someone suffering from oldtimer's disease. Makes sense to me!

>

>Stephanie Hysmith

>Ohio University



Yes, this all reminds me of the joke about the man who punched out the

doctor when the doctor announced that the man's wife had "acute angina."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 07:31:55 -0500

From:  Alan R Slotkin <ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



I grew up in NY and FL, where sidewalk was parallel to the street and

walkway went from the sidewalk to the house. The term I here around Mid-TN

most is walk and/or front walk for my childhood walkway.



Alan Slotkin



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:10:30 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: wav/sox/?



W';ve heard about wav.for PC and sox for Unix. What about the rest of ut?

(Macs forever)



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:32:06 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



Despite my otherwise exotic New York City dialect traits (saloogi, standing on

line, string beans, soda, Mary vs. merry vs. marry, etc.), I'm afraid that like

most of you I just do the laundry. Ho-hum.



     Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:47:19 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Mondegreens -Reply



Stephanie:



I love it! As a medical editor, I collect things of this nature as

well. One of my favorite was an author/surgeon who insisted

throughout an entire manuscript that he was "litigating arteries".

Please, can you cite said article?



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



>>> Stephanie Hysmith <hysmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> 10/6/95,

01:26am >>>

          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Oct-1995 02:07am EST



   To: Remote Addressee           (

_mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Stephanie Hysmith             Dept: English

     HYSMITH                 Tel No:

614-593-2743



Subject: Mondegreens





I just discovered Pullet Surprise in Fromkin and Rodman and so was

pleased to recognize the term in the recent discussion and delighted

to learn about the demise of Lady Mondegreen. It reminded me of a

medical journal article that listed some of the self-diagnosed

illnesses of emergency room patients.

    Very-close veins

    roaches of the liver

    sick-as-hell anemia are all I can recall. I have a new one

from my neighbor, though. He was telling me about someone suffering

from oldtimer's disease. Makes sense to me!



Stephanie Hysmith

Ohio University









Received: 06-Oct-1995 02:26am



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 06:42:29 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



Parkways and sidewalks



Within the last 20 years after moving to Colorado Springs, CO, I picked up an

extra definition for parkway, which previously connoted for me wide,

green-scaped, paved roads.



In CS, a lot of neighborhoods have 2 foot to 10 foot strips of grass running

parallel to, and between the sidewalk and the street. These are called

parkways as well.



Have others seen this usage?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:01:09 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Durand <Durand[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Mondegreens -Reply



Bill's old clinic had a patient who told them she had "fireballs in the

uterus" (ie, fibroids).



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:45:15 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



Thanks for the explanation, Rima. Around here they are definitely

"string beans," though I recognize "green beans" as a variant (whereas,

for example, both "green onion" and "spring onion" feel like alien

terms for what I call "scallions"), but they have no strings, which

is convenient.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:23:47 EDT

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Lexical choice?



> Bob Wachal

>

  Fill in the blank in the following:

>         Today I have to do the __laundry____________________







Danielle



dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:27:33 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



>I just discovered Pullet Surprise in Fromkin and Rodman and so was pleased to

>recognize the term in the recent discussion and delighted to learn about the

>demise of Lady Mondegreen.



Forgive the ignorant, please... I've never heard "Lady Mondegreen" and

can't seem to figure it out. Help? :)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:29:27 -0500

From:  Ron Rabin <RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU>

Subject: Re: wav/sox/?



fyi, the reference for sox for msdos is:

/SimTel/msdos/sound/sox7dos.zip at ftp.coast.net

Ron Rabin

Buffalo State College



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:41:44 EDT

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>

> On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

> > That reminds me of the phrase my mother used to use for grocery shopping:

> > "food-shopping."

> > No one I know now uses this phrase.

> > Anyone heard it?

>

> Yes, it's not uncommon among native Texans I know. It used to sound odd

> to me but I've grown to appreciate the specificity.

>

> Kate Catmull              kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

>





**********



I also say food-shopping, due to the fact that my mother always used

this phrase.



Danielle

dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 10:09:22 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens -Reply



This is more of a tangent. Most of these things turn a name or

unusual word (like "Pulitzer," "Alzheimer's," "varicose," or

"cirrhosis" into a more familiar word), but the canonical example

takes ordinary English--laid him on the green--and invents a

name--Lady Mondegreen. Which leads me to wonder how widespread

"green" is for a public area at the center of town, possibly with

a building or two (such as a church or town hall). I know that

New Haven, Connecticut has a town green (with _three_ churches

on it, and university and government buildings around the edges,

as well as bars, banks, delis and the like), and that in much

of Massachusetts this area is called the Common.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:04:34 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



For me, a sidewalk is parallel to the street, the concrete strip from

the sidewalk to the front porch is just "the walk".

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

> to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

> door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

> a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

> I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

> other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

> When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

> front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

> for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

> parallel to the street, of course.)

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:15:56 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Hello gumshoes!



Help: I'm told there is a quite specific word for "dog turds turning

white in the sun." Believe it or not, I have a friend who wants to

name her new business this word, if someone can come up with it.



Thanks,

molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 08:21:04 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



I call those grassy strips between the sidewalk and the street "parking

strips". I've never heard them called parkways.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:



> Parkways and sidewalks

>

> Within the last 20 years after moving to Colorado Springs, CO, I picked up an

> extra definition for parkway, which previously connoted for me wide,

> green-scaped, paved roads.

>

> In CS, a lot of neighborhoods have 2 foot to 10 foot strips of grass running

> parallel to, and between the sidewalk and the street. These are called

> parkways as well.

>

> Have others seen this usage?

>

> -- Jim

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:25:20 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens -Reply



Vicki writes:



>          ...Which leads me to wonder how widespread

>"green" is for a public area at the center of town, possibly with

>a building or two (such as a church or town hall). I know that

>New Haven, Connecticut has a town green (with _three_ churches

>on it, and university and government buildings around the edges,

>as well as bars, banks, delis and the like), and that in much

>of Massachusetts this area is called the Common.



It's not just New Haven, but virtually every self-respecting Connecticut town

that has a green. In Massachusetts, as far as I know, they are indeed

commons, but I'm not sure whether there's an established isogloss to mark the

boundary, or what they call them in Rhode Island. (I'm sure it's all in

DARE, but I don't have a copy handy.) I suspect that 'green' may be more wide-

spread throughout New England than 'common', but that may be my Connecticut

chauvinism showing.



--Larry

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:10:22 +0100

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



>>

>> On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>>

>> > That reminds me of the phrase my mother used to use for grocery shopping:

>> > "food-shopping."

>> > No one I know now uses this phrase.

>> > Anyone heard it?



In my family, we say "grocery-shopping" or just use "going to the grocery

store" instead of "going shopping."



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:17:11 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



That's a GOOD one, Natalie! "Walkway" has been peripheral for this CA

guy, with both types being 'sidewalks' for me. But I think people walk

'down' or 'along' a parallel-to-street type but 'up' the one that goes to

the door. Let's not get too hung up on the semantics of side -- as many a

comic has pointed out, we park on a driveway but drive on a parkway. But

back to the major point -- which were you told and which do you tell very

young children at Halloween (when did we lose the apostrophe?) to go 'up'

(?) in order to knock at doors and yell "Trick or Treat!"?



On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> Do any of you have any idea how common it is to use the word "sidewalk"

> to refer to the strip of concrete that runs from the street to the front

> door of a house? I had always assumed it was the standard term, but a

> a recent discussion on Words-L got confusing for a few minutes because

> I was using "sidewalk" to mean the sidewalk that comes to my door, while

> other people thought that a "sidewalk" had to be parallel to the street.

> When I asked what they called the strip of concrete that comes to the

> front door, they said "walkway." I've never heard anybody say "walkway"

> for what I call a "sidewalk." (I also use "sidewalk" for one that runs

> parallel to the street, of course.)

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:20:37 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



As one who has actually been to GalVESton, Ind., let me throw in two other

Hoosier place names that aren't pronounced the way most "foreigners" to our

state always assume. One is Chili, Ind., which is pronounced CHEYE-lie, and

Peru, which--in Indiana only--has the accent on the first syllable.

Oh, and there is also Pulaski County, where the native insist that it be

pronounced Pulask-eye (not -ee).

What a funny, but interesting, little state we have here.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 09:29:29 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



Apparently none of the subscribers to ADS-L had the

advantages I did--being raised in neighborhoods of

two- and three-story apartment buildings on the south side

of Chicago, which in the Twenties were most commonly

referred to, except by realtors, as _flat buildings_..



I must have been in my thirties before

hearing anyone refer to the concrete walking

place between buildings as anything other than a



         GANGWAY..



As a very young child, on the _sidewalk_ running parallel

to the street, I played hopscotch and a game called Sky Blue,

involving patterns drawn with chalk.These games were not

sexually discriminatory and were jointly played by boys

and girls., In later childhood, sexual discrimination having

raised its ugly head, boys only rolled marbles called "

commies" (obivously for "common") at other, more highly

valued marbles, known generically as "canicks," such as

"aggies" (made of agate) and "moonies" (pearly white, resem-

bling opals), which had differing values stated

in terms of the number of squares from which a player had

to roll at them. If your commie hit the canick, it was yours;

if not, the owner of the canick, who sat on the sidewalk

beyond his prize with his legs spread aside to catch them,

kept your commies. The most valuable canick I remember was

one owned by my brother Sam--a 25 square, very small aggie.

As a squarewas about four feet long, you had to roll your

commie about 100 feet to hit the tiny aggie. No one ever hit

it; My brother Sam had ten or twelve cigar boxes full of

commies--more than any other boy in the neighborhood..



If I seem to have wandered far from the subject of sidewalks,

please excuse the garrulity that unfortunately accompanies

advancing years.





Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:54:52 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: All The Way



When I ordered a hamburger in a small Texas town several years ago, the

waitress ask me "Do you want that all the way?"



I was unable to answer. Was she asking if I wanted it well-done, as in

"cooked all the way through"? Was she asking if I wanted it brought all

the way to the table?



Turns out, she was asking me if I wanted everything on it.



Steve Russell

>From Wisconsin, doan't ya know. Ohkee, bye-bye now.

juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvfn.org



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:01:35 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



One of the suburbs of Chicago is Des Plaines. DESS PLAYNZ.





>As one who has actually been to GalVESton, Ind., let me throw in two other

>Hoosier place names that aren't pronounced the way most "foreigners" to our

>state always assume. One is Chili, Ind., which is pronounced CHEYE-lie, and

>Peru, which--in Indiana only--has the accent on the first syllable.

>Oh, and there is also Pulaski County, where the native insist that it be

>pronounced Pulask-eye (not -ee).

>What a funny, but interesting, little state we have here.

>

>Jerry Miller

>Pulliam School of Journalism

>Franklin College (Ind.)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:10:46 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: Another Restaurant Story



A friend of mine went to a restaurant in Milwaukee and said, "I'd like a

turkey sandwich".



The waitress said, "Please?".



Miffed at being corrected, he said, "OK, I'll have a turkey sandwich,

PLEASE!"



In this Germanic town, people sometimes use "please" as the Germans use

"bitte" - as a way of saying "Please say that again, I didn't hear you

the first time".



Steve Russell

I'm gonna get a drink from the bubbler.

Wisconsin



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:12:13 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: place names



Cairo, Illinois - pronounced Kay-ro.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:10:45 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: greens [was:] Mondegreens -Reply



Concord, MA has its "mall" --a rectangular green with monuments,

surrounded by the main roads, churches, inn, shops, and

various historic bldgs.



Oberlin, OH has "Tappan Square" --a large square wooded park

surrounded by the main roads, chapel, inn, shops, and various

campus bldgs.



--Doug Bayer, Arlington, MA (OC'80)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 11:29:31 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens -Reply



DARE shows that "green" for an area of grassland, esp in the center of a

town or village, is chiefly N Atl.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 13:41:14 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



I think I use both "sidewalk" and "pavement" to refer to the concrete

surface that runs parallel to the street.

As far as the path that runs up to the house, "the walk" is what sounds right.

Kate



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:50:26 EDT

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Creswell/Gangway



Quoting Tom Creswell:



>>>If I seem to have wandered far from the subject of sidewalks,

please excuse the garrulity that unfortunately accompanies

advancing years.<<<



Tom, keep talking. I love it.



But, isn't the entire passageway between buildings, paved or not, called a

gangway?



Richard Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 12:54:15 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: Creswell/Gangway



Now that Dick Spears reminded me, of course he is

right. I remember some gangways consisting of a

narrow strip of concrete walk with dirt on one or both

sides. But the name -gangway- was only applied

(consistent with its etymology)to those places between

buildings designed for passage from the front to the

rear, not to any unpaved space between buildings. Empty

lots between buildings were universally referred to in

the long ago days of my Chicago youth as _prairies_

even if only 20 or 25 feet in width.





Tom Creswell

_________________________________________



creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dodo.crown.net   Morality is simply the

2601 Indian Boundary Rd.  attitude we adopt toward

Chesterton, IN 46304    people we dislike.

Phone: 219/926 7018         --Oscar Wilde

10/06/95

____________



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:33:37 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: another thread



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Oct-1995 03:31pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: another thread





Speaking of greens: it's Harvard YARD and Syracuse has a QUAD[rangle] and Ohio U

has a GREEN. How many different names for the central campus area are there?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 06-Oct-1995 03:33pm



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:51:50 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: another thread -Reply



Penn State's is the MALL.



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



>>> David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> 10/6/95, 02:33pm

>>>

          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Oct-1995 03:31pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           (

_MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614)

593-2783



Subject: another thread





Speaking of greens: it's Harvard YARD and Syracuse has a QUAD[rangle]

and Ohio U has a GREEN. How many different names for the central

campus area are there?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 06-Oct-1995 03:33pm



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:53:53 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



>Speaking of greens: it's Harvard YARD and Syracuse has a QUAD[rangle] and

Ohio U

>has a GREEN. How many different names for the central campus area are there?

>



UIC has a FORUM and a COURTYARD.



Kathleen M. O'Neill

Language Laboratory Technician I

University of Illinois at Chicago



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 15:02:54 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: another thread



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> >Speaking of greens: it's Harvard YARD and Syracuse has a QUAD[rangle] and

> Ohio U

> >has a GREEN. How many different names for the central campus area are there?

> >

>

> UIC has a FORUM and a COURTYARD.



The University of Texas at Austin has MALLS (west, north, south, and east).



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:56:14 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



David: Here at little Franklin College we have a "mall" for the central part

of our campus. Technically, its name is "Dame Mall"--which is not, I hasten

to add, some kind of strange tribute to gender bias. Somebody whose last

name was Dame was an important figure in the college's history, I believe.



Cheers,



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 14:20:43 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



The University of Washington has the QUAD which is a long formal mall

with brick walkways planted with lovely flowering cherry trees. It also

has another area which used to be a wooded sort of lawn flanked by Suzzallo

Library and the Administration Building. In the early 70s a multi-level

parking garage was built under the area. The formerly grassy area was

paved over in red brick so the area is now called RED SQUARE. I don't

think it has a formal name. In the rain those bricks are slicker than

_________! (fill in the dialectical word of your choice)

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, David Bergdahl wrote:



>          Ohio University Electronic Communication

>

>

>  Date: 06-Oct-1995 03:31pm EST

>

>   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )

>

>  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

>      BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783

>

> Subject: another thread

>

>

> Speaking of greens: it's Harvard YARD and Syracuse has a QUAD[rangle] and Ohio U

> has a GREEN. How many different names for the central campus area are there?

>

> BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

> David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

> "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"

>

>

>

> Received: 06-Oct-1995 03:33pm

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 16:11:22 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



At the University of Missouri in Columbia, we have quads in the red campus

and the white campus, each surrounded by buildings made of, repectively,

red bricks and white sandstone. But in the area where buildings were

built in the 1960s we have a mall, with buildings on each side but

none that can box in the space and make it a quad. The red campus, with

quad, is to the north of the main administration building, and in the past

couple of years all the area south of Jesse Hall to the Med School has

been turned into a "green area" or "green space" and is called a mall

even though its lateral boundaries aren't defined by buildings. The

malls at UT-Austin have Battle's tower at one end and whatever was in

the city at the other ends of the malls.  I suspect that configuration

of surrounding buildings and architecture/planning work together in

labeling decisions. The areas that tend to be called malls are more

popular now in planning campus layouts, perhaps suggesting that the

outer perimeter can be extended as the university grows. Quads may

be seen as more limiting; we get this term in dorm complexes (Indiana Uni-

versity, U of MO), where the students are to be boxed in by some visible

perimeter like buildings or fences. DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 18:10:34 EDT

From:  Stephanie Hysmith <hysmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Mondegreens



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 06-Oct-1995 05:53pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )



  From: Stephanie Hysmith             Dept: English

     HYSMITH                 Tel No: 614-593-2743



Subject: Mondegreens





Molly Dickmeyer asked for the citation for the article I remembered. I'll try

to pull it off from our library's network and let you know. In the meantime, if

anyone was in the medical profession in the mid '70s, you might remember the

name of a physician who published fairly regularly in the _New England Journal

of Medicine_ and who generally wrote hilarious articles. One in particular was

about the benefits of chicken soup. It went something like, "If a patient is

admitted to the emergency room suffering from severe influenza symtoms, he

should immediately be administered 50 cc. of chicken soup, to be followed by

subsequent doses..." Well, you get the idea. At the end of the article under

references, he listed "my mother."

 Is this helpful? I don't know what sources are available to you. Mine are

somewhat limited, and my source for these articles was in another life.



I apologize for my delay in responding. I am on a remote modem that is slow as

the proverbial molassas. Thanks for everyone's additions to my list.



Stephanie Hysmith









Received: 06-Oct-1995 06:10pm



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 17:59:06 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



Jerry,

One of my students told me to pronounce Peru IN as ['piru]. Is that right?



Lima is, of course, so thoroughly [laym[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]], that when I said [lim[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] Road

no one corrects me (when I say, rather) because no one connects [lim[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]

with [laym[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]].



Beth Simon

Indiana University - Purdue University at Fort Wayne.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 18:05:21 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



Iowa City has a PENTACREST, a GREEN or YARD at the crest of a hill

in the center of five university buildings.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 19:59:57 -0400

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: another thread



> In the rain those bricks are slicker than

>_________! (fill in the dialectical word of your choice)



cat spit on linoleum.



or spit with an "h'.



New Orleans, the only city I know that mandates U-turns has a wide central

grassy area between each direction of traffic. They call this area

"the neutral ground," and it's wide enough to allow a safe u-turn.



I had heard that the term commons originated because Boston originally

had areas platted in groups of nine lots, with individual ownership

around the perimeter and a "commons" in the center owned in common.



         xxx

         xcx

         xxx



Is this true?



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Cocoanut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:16:10 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



In a message dated 95-10-06 05:40:59 EDT, you write:



>"sidewalk" is another thing that i didn't realize was an americanism

>til i moved here. the brit/sa english is "pavement"--which i have a

>hard time with, b/c they're often brick and, to me, a pavement is

>concrete.

>

>if i said "it's on the sidewalk" i'd mean the parallel one--if i

>meant the one coming up to the door, i'd be more specific "it's on

>the sidewalk to the house" or some such thing. i might use "walk"

>or something for the one coming to the house.



The British/South African usage of "pavement" for "sidewalk" sounds the most

strange to me when they refer to the cafes common in Paris (and elsewhere) as

"pavement cafes," not "sidewalk cafes." "Pavement" takes some of the romance

out of the idea for me.



Cindie Moore

Attorney at Law

Arlington, VA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:47:28 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra



>This is more of a tangent. Most of these things turn a name or

>unusual word (like "Pulitzer," "Alzheimer's," "varicose," or

>"cirrhosis" into a more familiar word), but the canonical example

>takes ordinary English--laid him on the green--and invents a

>name--Lady Mondegreen.



How do we differentiate or define among the following:



Mondegreens



Pullet Surprise



Malaprops or Malapropisms (based on Mrs. Malaprop) in a play I

believe by Sheridan, but correct me if wrong.



Goldwynisms based on quotes from movie producer Sam Goldwyn, the grand

master of the Malaprop without even trying:

 e.g. "An oral contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on."



Casey Stengelisms (I wish I could think of some, they were great.)



Yogi Berra (protege of Casey Stengel): "The future ain't what it used to be."



Norman Crosbyisms (based on mis-hearings).



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



P.S. Don't forget the Stars Bangled Banner: "Jose can you see?"



P.P.S. Politically incorrect joke circulated here about 2 years ago:

    Heard about the hispanic fireman whose wife had twins boys? He named

    them Jose and Hose B.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:58:39 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra



Yogi Berra said, "It ain't over till it's over!"



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:15:22 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



The largest green space at the central campus here at Yale is called simply

Cross Campus. No one has mentioned the U. of Michigan and its "Diag"

(DIE-aeg).







Re Seth Sklarey's comment,



>I had heard that the term commons originated because Boston originally

>had areas platted in groups of nine lots, with individual ownership

>around the perimeter and a "commons" in the center owned in common.



>            xxx

>            xcx

>            xxx



>Is this true?



Sounds plausible. But it may be worth noting that the same scheme held in

New Haven--even now, the part of downtown below and to the left of the "c" in

Seth's chart is called "the Ninth Square"; it's been the site of recent urban

urban renewal. Yet, as I noted before, our "c" is called The Green.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:31:21 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



    I have sloppily not recorded where I obtained this information, but

in some lecture notes I find that I've listed the following terms as being

used for the grassy strip between the sidewalk (parallel to the street) and

the street/curb: berm, boulevard, boulevard stip, parking, parking strip,

parkway, sidewalk plot, tree lawn, neutral ground, devil strip, tree bank,

city strip.



    Every semester I ask my students (in Burlington, Vermont) what they

call this strip, and every semester they all look at me blankly. I think

that's odd, because it is a thing we need to talk about here--e.g., parking

on it is forbidden during Vermont's wretched "mud season"; the owner of the

land/house on the other side of it is responsible for keeping it mowed;

every spring (*after* mud season), the city offers free trees to be planted

there. I would think we'd settle on a name or names for it.



    Are all those terms listed above still in use somewhere?



 -- Virginia



At 08:21 AM 10/6/95 -0700, Allen Mabery wrote:

>I call those grassy strips between the sidewalk and the street "parking

>strips". I've never heard them called parkways.

>Allen

>maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

>

>On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:

>

>> Parkways and sidewalks

>>

>> Within the last 20 years after moving to Colorado Springs, CO, I picked up an

>> extra definition for parkway, which previously connoted for me wide,

>> green-scaped, paved roads.

>>

>> In CS, a lot of neighborhoods have 2 foot to 10 foot strips of grass running

>> parallel to, and between the sidewalk and the street. These are called

>> parkways as well.

>>

>> Have others seen this usage?

>>

>> -- Jim

>>

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:31:28 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Switched Candy Names



At 11:13 PM 10/5/95 -0700, Rima McKinzey wrote:

>>

>>    Wonderful excuse to eat candy when next in London!

>

>Some research is definitely more fun than other research. Does it have

>calories if you're eating it strictly for research/scientific purposes?

>

>Rima

>

    Absolutely not. In fact, my experience suggests that one should

deduct from one's total caloric intake for the day any calories that would

have been in the candy had one not been doing research.



Virginia



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:31:35 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Another Pullet Surprise item



    In a posting to UVMToday, which goes to thousands of faculty, staff,

and students, someone today wrote, "Sorry . . . I still believe in blue not

pock-a-dot skies. Interesting. I write "polka dot," which _AH_ suggests as

a posssible respelling of "poke a dot."



    What do other people do?



 -- Virginia



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:31:17 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lexical choice?



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Jenny Becker wrote:



> >>

> >> On Thu, 5 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

> >>

> >> > That reminds me of the phrase my mother used to use for grocery shopping:

> >> > "food-shopping."

> >> > No one I know now uses this phrase.

> >> > Anyone heard it?

>

> In my family, we say "grocery-shopping" or just use "going to the grocery

> store" instead of "going shopping."

"Food-shopping" is the only phrase that we use in our family, and we do

it at the 'food-store'. 'Grocery' (When I ever do say it, it's

pronounced [gro-shur-ee]) sounds like something that my gramma would

say. Very outdated to me.

FJ



 > > Jenny Becker

> beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:39:38 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: Another Pullet Surprise item



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Virginia Clark wrote:



>     In a posting to UVMToday, which goes to thousands of faculty, staff,

> and students, someone today wrote, "Sorry . . . I still believe in blue not

> pock-a-dot skies. Interesting. I write "polka dot," which _AH_ suggests as

> a posssible respelling of "poke a dot."

>

>     What do other people do?

>

> -- Virginia

>

Doesn't it come from the dots which are found on the skirts of female

polka dancers? I always though so.



Steve Russell



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:42:04 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Seth Sklarey wrote:



[snip]

> Malaprops or Malapropisms (based on Mrs. Malaprop) in a play I

> believe by Sheridan, but correct me if wrong.

>



_The Rivals_, Sheridan, Richard Binsley.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:42:16 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> One of the suburbs of Chicago is Des Plaines. DESS PLAYNZ.



Dubois, Idaho is [DU-bois]n not [du bwa]. The capital of Idaho is

Boy-see, not Boy-zee.

FJ



>

>

> >As one who has actually been to GalVESton, Ind., let me throw in two other

> >Hoosier place names that aren't pronounced the way most "foreigners" to our

> >state always assume. One is Chili, Ind., which is pronounced CHEYE-lie, and

> >Peru, which--in Indiana only--has the accent on the first syllable.

> >Oh, and there is also Pulaski County, where the native insist that it be

> >pronounced Pulask-eye (not -ee).

> >What a funny, but interesting, little state we have here.

> >

> >Jerry Miller

> >Pulliam School of Journalism

> >Franklin College (Ind.)

> >

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Oct 1995 to 6 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 19 messages totalling 528 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ethnography of an Expression (fwd)

 2. Another Pullet Surprise item (2)

 3. the dictionary of stereotypes

 4. green/string beans (2)

 5. place names (3)

 6. oj stuff (2)

 7. Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra

 8. quads

 9. Another Lexical Item

 10. Polk salad and rampy stuff (3)

 11. getting to NWAVE

 12. Dialectics of Dialect



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 23:01:38 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Ethnography of an Expression (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 1995 20:47:44 -0500

From: Diane Penkoff <penkoff[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAGE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list FOLKLORE <FOLKLORE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU>

Subject: Ethnography of an Expression



Dear Folklorists--



I posted the following query to CRTNET, and received in response a

suggestion that perhaps you and the members of WORD-L might have some

helpful insights. As a result, I'm sending my question to both lists.



Some of our grad students are engaged in an ethnographic study of an

expression, "Go Ugly Early," which is widely linked with the undergraduate

social culture here at Purdue. The study began as part of a seminar on

research methods organizational communication, and the assumption was that

the phrase was a local one. We now suspect, however, that it also is alive

and well at other campuses. I volunteered to see if I could find anyone

who was familiar with it via

the Internet.



If you know of any regions or organizations where the phrase, "Go Ugly

Early" is used, I'd very much appreciate hearing from you, and perhaps

asking you a few e-mail questions. Please respond privately to my address

below, since I'm not a member of the list.



Thanks in advance.



Diane Witmer Penkoff

Internet: penkoff[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sage.cc.purdue.edu

WWW:    http://sage.cc.purdue.edu/~penkoff/



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:07:38 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Pullet Surprise item



"Poke a dot???" Never heard it.



It's "polka dot," so far as I know (TX, ARK, LA, London, ARK, TX,

TN)



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 22:08:09 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: the dictionary of stereotypes



> From: vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dectlk.ENET.dec.com

> Subject: Request for ethnic terms

>

> There is a "linguistics" issue which readers of this discussion group

> could probably help me with. I'm writing a dictionary and some papers

> on the lexicalization of ethnic expressions. I began working on this

> 14 years ago. I've been collecting some ethnic expressions such as

> Mexican Standoff, Dutch Courage, Chinese Firedrill, French Fries,

> Swedish Ivy, etc.

>

> I have a large number of these words and phrases (450pp single-spaced)

> but the number of languages is small relative to the number of major

> languages (approx. 6500) spoken in the world today.

>

> If you or friends and colleagues who are native speakers of or

> specialists in various languages can think of any, I'd appreciate a

> list of these.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:35:41 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



>Thanks for the explanation, Rima. Around here they are definitely

>"string beans," though I recognize "green beans" as a variant (whereas,

>for example, both "green onion" and "spring onion" feel like alien

>terms for what I call "scallions"), but they have no strings, which

>is convenient.

>



My mother always said "string beans" and also scallions. It was a while

before I more often than not said green beans and green onions. Spring

onions still sound alien to me too. I also grew up with chick peas - and

it was quite a while before I realized that garbanzos were the same thing.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:35:50 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: place names



Jerry,



When we lived in Logansport ( 2 years, 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, and 4

minutes - but who was counting), folks only called Peru PEEroo when they

were kidding. When it was referred to for real, it was generally called

puhROO.



We drove through Galveston every time we went to Kokomo. Did you realize

there's a guy there who imports and trains camels??



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:35:58 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: oj stuff



Just heard on Nightline, a juror being interviewed by Ted Koppel referring

to Mark Fuhrman, and talking about when he said the n-word, an "epitaph."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 00:36:06 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens,Malaprops,Sam Goldwyn, Casey Stengel & Yogi Berra



>How do we differentiate or define among the following:

>

>Mondegreens



Mishearings, usually of song lyrics or other public utterance. Thus the

name: from the ballad of the Earl of Murray who was killed. "and they

slew the Earl of Murray and laid him on the green" misheard as two

unfortunately murdered gentles - both the hapless Earl of Murray and Lady

Mondegreen.

>

>

>Malaprops or Malapropisms (based on Mrs. Malaprop) in a play I

>believe by Sheridan, but correct me if wrong.



Using the wrong word. My old neighbor, for instance, would say things like

"indiscreet lighting" and "revolting doors."

>

>Goldwynisms based on quotes from movie producer Sam Goldwyn, the grand

>master of the Malaprop without even trying:

> e.g. "An oral contract isn't worth the paper it's printed on."



Mix and match expressions. A client of my father's used to say "No matter

how you twist and turn, it all comes out in the wash."

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 05:10:26 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: quads



at wits, we have "the library lawns."  (don't ask me why it's plural-

-perhaps b/c it's divided by paths?)



at umass/amherst, the main area is the pond--which is to say, the

grassy area next to the pond. but the different residential areas

have their own things as well, and where i lived it was "the bowl"--a

round, depressed area of grass. there was also a quad in another res

area, and the pyramids in another.



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:00:12 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



Another possible term for this area is easement.



Easement is defined as land that you own, but someone else has some rights

over it, and you still have to mow it.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL

----------------------------------------------------------------------------



>    I have sloppily not recorded where I obtained this information, but

>in some lecture notes I find that I've listed the following terms as being

>used for the grassy strip between the sidewalk (parallel to the street) and

>the street/curb: berm, boulevard, boulevard stip, parking, parking strip,

>parkway, sidewalk plot, tree lawn, neutral ground, devil strip, tree bank,

>city strip.

>

>    Every semester I ask my students (in Burlington, Vermont) what they

>call this strip, and every semester they all look at me blankly. I think

>that's odd, because it is a thing we need to talk about here--e.g., parking

>on it is forbidden during Vermont's wretched "mud season"; the owner of the

>land/house on the other side of it is responsible for keeping it mowed;

>every spring (*after* mud season), the city offers free trees to be planted

>there. I would think we'd settle on a name or names for it.

>

>    Are all those terms listed above still in use somewhere?

>

> -- Virginia

>

>At 08:21 AM 10/6/95 -0700, Allen Mabery wrote:

>>I call those grassy strips between the sidewalk and the street "parking

>>strips". I've never heard them called parkways.

>>Allen

>>maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

>>

>>On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:

>>

>>> Parkways and sidewalks

>>>

>>> Within the last 20 years after moving to Colorado Springs, CO, I picked

up an

>>> extra definition for parkway, which previously connoted for me wide,

>>> green-scaped, paved roads.

>>>

>>> In CS, a lot of neighborhoods have 2 foot to 10 foot strips of grass running

>>> parallel to, and between the sidewalk and the street. These are called

>>> parkways as well.

>>>

>>> Have others seen this usage?

>>>

>>> -- Jim

>>>

>>

>>

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:03:37 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Another Pullet Surprise item



>    In a posting to UVMToday, which goes to thousands of faculty, staff,

>and students, someone today wrote, "Sorry . . . I still believe in blue not

>pock-a-dot skies. Interesting. I write "polka dot," which _AH_ suggests as

>a posssible respelling of "poke a dot."

>

>    What do other people do?

>

> -- Virginia

>

>

By the way, what is poke salad?

I know what a pig in a poke is.

And I know what a poke in the mouth is.



Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:18:48 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: place names



>Jerry,

>

>When we lived in Logansport ( 2 years, 3 months, 3 weeks, 5 days, and 4

>minutes - but who was counting), folks only called Peru PEEroo when they

>were kidding. When it was referred to for real, it was generally called

>puhROO.

>

>We drove through Galveston every time we went to Kokomo. Did you realize

>there's a guy there who imports and trains camels??

>

>Rima

>

>

S. Ross Perot says that the original pronounciation (some people say

pronunciation)

of his name is Pee-roh with accent on the first syllable.



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:22:37 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: oj stuff



>Just heard on Nightline, a juror being interviewed by Ted Koppel referring

>to Mark Fuhrman, and talking about when he said the n-word, an "epitaph."

>

>Rima

>

>

I once heard a guy say that he always wanted to get some pornography but

he never had a pornograph to play it on.



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 08:29:05 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



>>Thanks for the explanation, Rima. Around here they are definitely

>>"string beans," though I recognize "green beans" as a variant (whereas,

>>for example, both "green onion" and "spring onion" feel like alien

>>terms for what I call "scallions"), but they have no strings, which

>>is convenient.

>>

>

>My mother always said "string beans" and also scallions. It was a while

>before I more often than not said green beans and green onions. Spring

>onions still sound alien to me too. I also grew up with chick peas - and

>it was quite a while before I realized that garbanzos were the same thing.

>

>Rima

>

>

In the Bahmama they have pigeon peas, which appear to be a small green pea

but not as developed. Peanuts in the south are called goober peas. The

green giant in the 1960's wanted peas on earth. The way to catch a polar bear

is to cut a hole in the ice, the diameter of a polar bear, and circle the

perimeter with green peas. When the polar bear comes up to take a pea, you

hit it in the head.



Seth



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 10:26:59 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Polk salad and rampy stuff



Someone asked, "what is poke salad?"



Polk is a wild green (kin, I guess, to mustard and collards and stuff) That

is a COOKED "salit." At least one company still cans it commercially, I

think. When I waas interviewing in Newton County, AR, in 1970, people

were gathering it to sell to the cannery.



But who knows about ramps? East Tennessee hosts an annual Ramp Festival,

complete with a Ramp Queen and a band and sometimes the guv. Ramps are

kin to wild onions and they are traditionally the first spring

vegetable to poke up from under the snow or ice. They taste

wonderful, but they have a goddawful smell. The first time I went to the

Ramp Festival, a group of us went on to Gatlinburg from the Festival

and we left raw ramps in the ar in the sunlight. The car stank for days.

Newspapers have carried stories about kids who ate them on the way to

school and were summarily sent back home after they arrived, not

bating their breath.



BTW, collards is the "green" I grew up on, and it remains my favorite --

except when I am having Spinach Maria.



Bethany Dumas

dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 09:39:43 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



At 10:26 AM 10/7/95 -0400, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:

>Someone asked, "what is poke salad?"

>

>Polk is a wild green (kin, I guess, to mustard and collards and stuff) That

>is a COOKED "salit."



I'm with you except on the spelling--I'd write "poke," as in the great song

"Poke Salad Annie."



I've always thought it was short for pokeweed, but I could easily be wrong.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 12:50:09 EDT

From:  Naomi Nagy <nagy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNAGI1K.CIS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: getting to NWAVE



NWAVE participants,



Below are directions for getting to the site of the first few NWAVE24

activities. When you register, you will be given further information. Also,

you will receive a nametag, which you should wear. Access to many buildings on

campus is limited to Penn students, faculty, and staff. You may not be

permitted access without your name-tag, especially to Steinberg-Dietrich Hall.



Registration will be located in 1113 Blockley Hall (the Mac Lab) on Thursday

afternoon and in 107 Steinberg-Dietrich Hall during the rest of the conference.

Beginning with the plenary session on Thursday evening, the focal point of the

conference will be Steinberg-Dietrich Hall.



The registration table will be open at the following times:



    Thurs. 10am-6pm in Blockley, 7pm-10pm in Steinberg-Dietrich

    Fri.  8:30am-1pm, 1:30pm-6pm, 7:30pm-10pm in Steinberg-Dietrich

    Sat.  8:30am-12:30pm, 1:30pm-6pm, 7:30-10pm in Steinberg-Dietrich

    Sun.  8:30am-1pm in Steinberg-Dietrich



The plenary session Thursday, 8:00 pm, will be held in Steinberg-Dietrich Hall

350, and the reception following will be in the same building.



**Directions to Blockley Hall and the Nursing Ed. Building**



Blockley Hall is on a small street called Guardian Drive, one block south of

Baltimore Avenue, at about 37th Street. By car, it can be approached from 38th

Street only. From 38th, turn onto Guardian, which is the first road/driveway

south of Baltimore and Spruce. It runs east from 38th Street, which is called

University Ave., at that point. Blockley is the first building that fronts onto

Guardian Drive on the right. Just past it is a new building with blue trim

(Stellar-Chance Labs). The next building past that is the Nursing Ed. Bldg.



To get to Blockley by foot, you need to get to Hamilton Walk, which is one

block south of Spruce Street and runs from 38th to 36th. From Hamilton, you

need to walk south THROUGH the Richards Medical Research Lab. There is a

passageway with about 3 sets of brown glass doors and a security guard

inside. When you come out the south side, you will be facing the *Nursing

Ed. Bld.* on Guardian Drive. Turn right. You will pass, on your left, a

building with blue trim. The building just after it is Blockley Hall. The

entrance is immediately after the skywalk. Inside, turn right and you will

find the elevators. Come to the 11th floor. Registration will be in room 1113, which is right next to the elevators.



**Directions to Steinberg Hall-Dietrich Hall**



Steinberg-Dietrich Hall is part of the Wharton School. It is located at 37th

Street and Locust Walk. Locust Walk is between Walnut and Spruce Streets. You

can drive on either of those, but not on Locust or 37th. (They are

pedestrian-only on campus.)



Looking forward to seeing you all,



Naomi



P.S. As usual, apologies for duplicate mailings and to anyone that isn't receiving mailings.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 16:31:48 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



>Someone asked, "what is poke salad?"

>

>Polk is a wild green (kin, I guess, to mustard and collards and stuff) That

>is a COOKED "salit." At least one company still cans it commercially, I

>think. When I waas interviewing in Newton County, AR, in 1970, people

>were gathering it to sell to the cannery.

>

>But who knows about ramps? East Tennessee hosts an annual Ramp Festival,

>complete with a Ramp Queen and a band and sometimes the guv. Ramps are

>kin to wild onions and they are traditionally the first spring

>vegetable to poke up from under the snow or ice. They taste

>wonderful, but they have a goddawful smell. The first time I went to the

>Ramp Festival, a group of us went on to Gatlinburg from the Festival

>and we left raw ramps in the ar in the sunlight. The car stank for days.

>Newspapers have carried stories about kids who ate them on the way to

>school and were summarily sent back home after they arrived, not

>bating their breath.

>

>BTW, collards is the "green" I grew up on, and it remains my favorite --

>except when I am having Spinach Maria.

>

>Bethany Dumas

>dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

>

>hi fromcrissie & welcome to the net



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 20:00:48 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Dialectics of Dialect



Someone posted a query about the "dialectical" options in this frame:

  In rain those bricks are slicker than _______!



The dialectics of dialect are a powerful force in any culture, with the

various kinds of social and personal competition between and among

individuals and groups that speak dialects.



Dictionaries list both 'dialectal' and 'dialectical' as adjectival forms

of 'dialect'. But one who has thought much about dialectics and dialect

might develop a predictable preference for one adjective over the other.



Now, if the frame had offered a choice between "slicker than" and "more

slippery than," some interesting dialectical tension might enter the

picture. There is regional distribution of slick/slippery; I can't recall

specifics, but that's not my point. For me, some things can be slick but

others would be slippery, depending on how one interacts with them.



Was Tricky Dick slick or slippery? Is Slick Willy slippery in some ways?

These aren't serious questions, just idle examples, you understand.

                              DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:41:58 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



Well, y'all...



How's about Versailles? (Ver-saylz) Ohio and Kentucky... Rowan County,

Kentucky (Rauwun). I could go on.... But these are merely a couple from here

in Chillicothe, (chill-i-KOTH-ee)!





--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III

(Terry Iron's student who is still awaiting the assignment via E-mail!)



"There's a tree by the brook

 And a songbird who sings."

    Led Zepplin



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Oct 1995 to 7 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 25 messages totalling 574 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. PEAS (9)

 2. Polk salad and rampy stuff (2)

 3. various responses

 4. Mondegreens

 5. Wittgenstein

 6. Another Lexical Item

 7. place names (2)

 8. another thread (2)

 9. ADS & LEXICAL CHOICE (2)

 10. student mondegreens/malapropisms; "fun" (2)

 11. miscellany, lexical

 12. green/string beans



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:05:53 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: PEAS



Seth Sklarey writes:



> In the Bahmama they have pigeon peas, which appear to be a small green pea

> but not as developed. Peanuts in the south are called goober peas. The

> green giant in the 1960's wanted peas on earth. The way to catch a polar bear

> is to cut a hole in the ice, the diameter of a polar bear, and circle the

> perimeter with green peas. When the polar bear comes up to take a pea, you

> hit it in the head.



I'll ignore the pun and move on the the peas...When I was living in Texas, my

then-husband (now ex-) developed a severe rash that necessitated his being on

a hypoallergenic diet. There were two vegetables on the faded xerox of

permitted foods that I was given, green beans and English peas (both canned or

fresh, but not frozen). The green beans were no problem (if I rinsed the salt

from the canning liquid away), but I never did figure out what English peas

are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed. But then, what

do I know? I'm from New York!



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 00:40:22 -0400

From:  Crissie Trigger <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: PEAS



>Seth Sklarey writes:

>

>> In the Bahmama they have pigeon peas, which appear to be a small green pea

>> but not as developed. Peanuts in the south are called goober peas. The

>> green giant in the 1960's wanted peas on earth. The way to catch a polar bear

>> is to cut a hole in the ice, the diameter of a polar bear, and circle the

>> perimeter with green peas. When the polar bear comes up to take a pea, you

>> hit it in the head.

>

>I'll ignore the pun and move on the the peas...When I was living in Texas, my

>then-husband (now ex-) developed a severe rash that necessitated his being on

>a hypoallergenic diet. There were two vegetables on the faded xerox of

>permitted foods that I was given, green beans and English peas (both canned or

>fresh, but not frozen). The green beans were no problem (if I rinsed the salt

>from the canning liquid away), but I never did figure out what English peas

>are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed. But then, what

>do I know? I'm from New York!

>

>Alice Faber

>

>

English peas might be what you call snap peas in the states. In the states

what

they call English peas are a younger, not fully grown variety.



Crissie Trigger



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:08:57 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



>>BTW, collards is the "green" I grew up on, and it remains my favorite --

>>except when I am having Spinach Maria.

>>

Ok, what's Spinach Maria?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:09:05 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: various responses



Seth,



I probably speak for a number of us when I say that your jokes are getting

worse - at least if the volume of my groans count for anything. "Oh my,

now that wasn't very good, was it?" as Dan Akroyd used to say on the old

Saturday Night Live. :-)



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:19:42 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: PEAS



 but I never did figure out what English peas

>>are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed. But then, what

>>do I know? I'm from New York!

>>

>>Alice Faber



Alice - I'm originally from NY too, and I now know that English peas are

what I used to call just regular old peas. We never called them snap,

though sometimes called them green. The other peas, i.e., snow or black

eyed were specifically named.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 08:03:47 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



Spinach Maria is an incredibly lovely, rich dish made locally by a

couple of restaurants. It contains scads of olive oil and cheese and pine

nuts (pignolas) and such. And spinach. It's a great item on a

late SUnday bruch menu.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 09:40:15 EDT

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: PEAS



>>>>> The way to catch a polar bear

>>>>> is to cut a hole in the ice, the diameter of a polar bear, and circle

>>>>> the perimeter with green peas. When the polar bear comes up to take a

>>>>> pea, you hit it in the head.



It may not be relevant, and it may have already been pointed out, but

the punch line is not



"hit it on the head"



but



"kick it in the ice-hole."





Richard Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 15:07:06 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



One of my students wrote this phrase in an essay: "a once and a lifetime

chance." That's the kind of chance that I want to happen upon.



Merri Lisa

Ohio University



On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Stephanie Hysmith wrote:



>          Ohio University Electronic Communication

>

>

>  Date: 06-Oct-1995 02:07am EST

>

>   To: Remote Addressee           ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" )

>

>  From: Stephanie Hysmith             Dept: English

>      HYSMITH                 Tel No: 614-593-2743

>

> Subject: Mondegreens

>

>

> I just discovered Pullet Surprise in Fromkin and Rodman and so was pleased to

> recognize the term in the recent discussion and delighted to learn about the

> demise of Lady Mondegreen. It reminded me of a medical journal article that

> listed some of the self-diagnosed illnesses of emergency room patients.

>     Very-close veins

>     roaches of the liver

>     sick-as-hell anemia

> are all I can recall. I have a new one from my neighbor, though. He was

> telling me about someone suffering from oldtimer's disease. Makes sense to me!

>

> Stephanie Hysmith

> Ohio University

>

>

>

>

> Received: 06-Oct-1995 02:26am

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:27:45 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Wittgenstein



>

> Is this true?

>



> Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

> Cocoanut Grove, FL

>

Being committed to the belief that truth exists somewhere in the union

of the work of Tarski & Austin and that Wittgenstein's ideas of language

constitute a distraction, I must ask what is this school?



Terry

Dahlia Lama



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:50:20 -0400

From:  "J. Russell King" <JRKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: PEAS



>>I never did figure out what English peas

>>>are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed.



My impression (I've read or heard this somewhere, and it bears out my own

experience) is that "English peas" is the Southern term for green peas or

what most Americans probably just call "peas." Because in the South (and this

was true in my childhood, in southern Oklahoma with Arkansas parentage),

"peas" standing alone is likely to be understood as black-eyed peas; the less

common green things must be distinguished as "green peas" or "English peas."



jrking



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:14:22 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



> back to the major point -- which were you told and which do you tell very

> young children at Halloween (when did we lose the apostrophe?) to go 'up'

> (?) in order to knock at doors and yell "Trick or Treat!"?



Mississippi children go up the sidewalk to knock on a door. But then I

guess that's obvious since I'm the one who learned only a few days ago

that not all sidewalks are called sidewalks some places.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   answering two-day-old mail because I've been out of town sans

   computer



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:14:25 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



Rima: Actually, when I worked at a nearby newspaper that included Peru in

its circulation area, I heard it both ways (PEErue & puhROO) from people in

that area (and I don't think all of them were trying to be funny).

As far as Galveston, no, I don't know about the guy with the camels, but I

did once do a story on a guy there who had a (very small) Museum and School

of Magic Witchcraft and believed he was a (good) witch (not warlock) and

supposedly gave psychic advice to people like Billie Jean King. Weirdest guy

I ever met--called himself "The Mysterious Lawrence," as I recall.



Cheers,

Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:15:54 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



> has a GREEN. How many different names for the central campus area are there?



Mississippi State: Parade Field or Parade Ground (a label left over from

the old days when all male students were required to take ROTC).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:13:42 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: ADS & LEXICAL CHOICE



Dear ADS members and list groupies,



Over the last two weeks I have found my email to have been bombarded

by hundreds of queries and responses about lexical dialect items. I hope

that this conversation is not taken by anyone as a substitute for serious

dialect study.



Many of these queries are recreating questions the answers to which are to

be found in the various field records of LAUSACA, most of which are

archived at UGA, although the records of LAUMS are at the Newberry, if I

have been informed correctly.



Internet provides an excellent vehicle for immediate feeedback about

language items, and the folk at UGA have put forth an electronic

survey for dialect study.



But not everyone is connected to the internet. In fact, in over 20

counties in Kentucky, over 20% of the homes do not even have phone

service, let alone computers.



FACT: AN ACCURATE DIALECT SURVEY OF NORTH AMERICA CANNOT BE CONDUCTED

BY ELECTRONIC MEANS.



It is characteristic of the current generation of American researchers,

in whatever field, that they are looking for the easy way to whatever

conclusion. Some consideration of method is in order.



THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SERIOUS FIELDWORK



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:26:38 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: PEAS



The label or title PEAS in my model of the world is to be reserved for the

the 1961 work of Kurath and McDavid about the pronunciation of English.



I would that more people had a sense of history.









--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:37:06 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: PEAS



> from the canning liquid away), but I never did figure out what English peas

> are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed. But then, what

> do I know? I'm from New York!



It was only a couple of years ago that I learned that some people call

English peas "green peas" or "sweet peas." I had never noticed before

then that the cans don't say "English peas."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:42:03 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: PEAS



> what most Americans probably just call "peas." Because in the South (and this

> was true in my childhood, in southern Oklahoma with Arkansas parentage),

> "peas" standing alone is likely to be understood as black-eyed peas; the less

> common green things must be distinguished as "green peas" or "English peas."



No. "Peas" alone doesn't automatically mean black-eyed peas. "Peas" is

the name of a category of food, not a specific kind. In a clear context,

like in a cafeteria line that offers only one kind of peas, it would be

ok to say "peas," but normally a Southerner would specify English peas

or black-eyed peas or lady peas or crowder peas or field peas or whatever.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 16:47:06 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS & LEXICAL CHOICE



> FACT: AN ACCURATE DIALECT SURVEY OF NORTH AMERICA CANNOT BE CONDUCTED

> BY ELECTRONIC MEANS.



Surely nobody is considering our recent chit-chat to be a survey?? Not

only can an accurate dialect survey not be conducted by electronic means,

we are not a very likely target group for a survey anyway. I thought we

were simply having fun. And occasionally, out of some of the "fun" type

discussion, somebody might discover something useful of course.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 Oct 1995 18:01:18 -0400

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON <BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU>

Subject: Re: another thread



re: names for central part of campus.



   We here at Indiana University of Pennsylvania (IUP) have an "Oak Grove"

(with a few oaks still left) as the central part of our campus.



BHHudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 15:56:47 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: student mondegreens/malapropisms; "fun"



On Sun, 8 Oct 1995, Merri Lisa Johnson wrote:



> One of my students wrote this phrase in an essay: "a once and a lifetime

> chance."



i quit writing down my students' bizarre expressions some time ago; i was

afraid they might grow into some monstrous _life reeked with joy II_

project and/or be perceived as mere dissing of gen-xers. but here is my

favorite essay-ending example from a few years ago:



In conclusion, Helga Crane's sensitivity towards her skin color was not

appeased no matter where she went; she felt very subconscious about

herself, and society worsened the situation by intensifying her

difference compared to them.



the same day, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I thought we were simply having fun. And occasionally, out of some of the

> "fun" type discussion, somebody might discover something useful of course.



i agree. i think of ads-l as infotainment. in between "useful" posts,

i can reminisce about the goo-goo bars and eyes (not burners) of my

youth, note that the sign in the window across the street ("pre-fix

dinner, $24.95") is part of a larger trend, be astounded that there is a

guy in utah who doesn't (didn't) know what cunnilingus means, learn new

words for sidewalk, etc.



terry irons' comments remind me of the recent post on linguist-l (for

those of you who read more than the job listings: self-censorship;

cheating)--there do seem to be a lot of people who would rather post a

query than open a book. but i'm (so far) not bothered by such "lazy"

postings. i don't browse through DARE for fun, but i do have fun

thinking about what i know about pop/soda/tonic/col' drink/cocola while

following a thread. i would imagine that some of the postings i find

useful are fun for others, and vice versa.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 17:59:32 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: miscellany, lexical



You're right, Terry, for warning those participants who might have mistaken our

fun for linguistics that it is not to be taken too seriously. Though I was

thinking about going upstairs to my office to bring down the copy of my

dissertation and give y'all some serious words of wisdom about green beans,

scallions, and the like. Maybe later.



And Natalie has a good point too in noting that here in the South, we have a

delightful variety of peas, the English kind being Way down at the bottom of

the list, IMO. Crowder peas and butter peas (no, not butter beans) are near

the top.



I, too, think the name for the plant whence poke sallit comes is pokeweed. YOu

have to gather it when it is tender and just sprouting out. At this time of

the year, when the stems are red and there are berries on it, it is supposedly

very poisonous.



Many small towns in Georgia have a "square" that one can only drive around in

one direction, that invariably has a confederate memorial in the middle, and

where the town's teenagers hang out on weekend nights. No greens here of that

sort.



I don't have a word at all for the space btw the sidewalk and the street. No

sidewalks in suburbia where I grew up, but some haouses did have a walk or

walkway going UP to the door (whether with steps or not).



Lastly, is the person who doesn't know what a hot dog "all the way" is for

real? Is this an idiosyncracy or are there other wisconsinites with the same

gap (bill?)? In Chile, if that's what you wanted, you ordered "un completo",

which was amazing in its toppings, and very messy. My mouth is watering, let's

not get back on junk food, please.



Ellen JOhnson

Univ. of Memphis (native of Atlanta)

ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 18:44:08 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: student mondegreens/malapropisms; "fun"



> i agree. i think of ads-l as infotainment. in between "useful" posts,



I see all e-mail lists as recreation, not work. Part of that may be

because I was e-mailing from home at night long before I had even a

computer in my office, much less any net connectivity there. Although

I do log on and check mail off and on during the workday, I still

consider it primarily what I do at night when my brain has turned off.

I have all list mail filtered into separate files, leaving only personal

mail in my regular mailbox. That makes it easy to leave the list mail

until later. I usually read it at night, during the time many people

do things like watch tv.



I do have to remind myself from time to time that some mailing lists

are primarily serious, of course. Another advantage of having my mail

filtered into separate files is that I can at least try to change my

behavior when I move to a different kind of list. I sometimes forget

to change, however.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 20:44:20 -0400

From:  David Carlson <Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: green/string beans



The Linguistic Atlas files from the Pacific Northwest show the following

locations for STRING BEANS:



Bellingham, Spokane, Walla Walla, Sumas, Sequim, Jamestowne, Port Townsend,

Port Angeles, Ferndale, Sumas, Lynden, Sumner, Waitsburg, Bremerton, Seattle,

and Pullman.



GREEN BEANS was found in Stamwood, Bellingham, Sumas, Auburn, Sequim, Port

Townsend, Dungeness, Port Angeles, Seattle, Sumner, Seattle, Bothell,

Olympia, Pullman, and Grandview





David R. Carlson

Amherst MA



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 20:48:56 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWOUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: place names



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



The folk in Peru, Ind. say Pee-roo, I'm told by a native, but the sophisticated

say "Birthplace of Cole Porter." :-)

                    db



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 Oct 1995 23:35:17 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: PEAS



Russell King writes,

>>I never did figure out what English peas

>>>are. The only peas I know from are green, snow, or black-eyed.



>My impression (I've read or heard this somewhere, and it bears out my own

>experience) is that "English peas" is the Southern term for green peas or

>what most Americans probably just call "peas." Because in the South (and

>this was true in my childhood, in southern Oklahoma with Arkansas parentage),

>"peas" standing alone is likely to be understood as black-eyed peas; the less

>common green things must be distinguished as "green peas" or "English

>peas."

and one or two others provided the same information. Now I know why the

non-metric system of measurement is called the English system, as we've been

reading. English obviously = 'unmarked, default, real'.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1995 to 8 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 33 messages totalling 850 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. input to discussions

 2. pop/green/string beans (3)

 3. Polk salad and rampy stuff (5)

 4. oj stuff -Reply

 5. Anyone need an M-W 3rd Collegiate?

 6. place names

 7. /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/ (10)

 8. miscellany, lexical (7)

 9. NWAVE hand-outs

 10. Ah'm is/rapeseed/canola oil

 11. fewer addresses

 12. . . .fun



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:07:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: input to discussions



Here is a compilation of the various comments I sent in that didn't get

through.



Re: Stove/Range



To me, a stove and a range are the same thing, but I use the term "stove."

I was brought up in Utah but lived most recently in Georgia. Most members of

my family now live in Georgia, but I would think it strange to hear one of

them use the term "range" in ordinary conversation.



I have just discussed the terms "stove" and "range" with a colleague who was

born in Kansas and grew up there. He says that they had no electricity or

running water when he was growing up, but they had both a stove and a range

(both wood-fueled). He says that the stove was for heating and the range was

for cooking and was sometimes referred to as a "cooking range."



* * * * * * * * * * *



Re: Ice box/Refrigerator, etc.



I was having a discussion about "ice box" last night. It seemed to follow

normally on the heels of "stove" vs. "range" (perhaps because they're both

kitchen appliances).



I used the term "ice box" growing up but use "refrigerator" now. I remember

friends of mine when I was growing up used the term "fridge" but we never

did.



My colleague who grew up in Kansas without electricity and running water also

uses the term "ice box" but then he grew up with a real ICE BOX and not an

electric refrigerator.



I'm interested to know about the distinction between "closet" and "cupboard."

I can keep my clothes in either the closet or the cupboard--the terms are

interchangeable in that sense. But I would never put dishes in a "closet."



My husband gets very upset when I use "cupboard" for "closet" because the

terms are not interchangeable for him at all.

*************



Re: String Beans/Green Beans



My maternal grandmother, mother, and I were all born in Salt Lake City. My

grandmother and mother both seemed to use "string bean" and "green bean"

interchangeably when I was growing up. I remember that it caused me a lot of

confusion because I never could figure out what the difference was.



I never use the term "string bean" and I don't think I've even heard it used

for quite awhile.

*************



Re: Unexcused Absences



Growing up in Utah, we used the term to "slough school" when we were cutting

classes (that's "slough" that rhymes with "enough").

*************



Re: Pronunciation by Newscasters



One of my favorites from a CNN weather person was the pronunciation of

achipelago like someone's name: Archie PelAgo.

*************



Re: Johnny at the Rathole



I have asked my Irish colleagues about this and none of them have heard it.

One of my English colleagues, however, said that he had heard it but didn't

know what it meant.

*************



Re: Today I have to do the . . . .



   "Today I have to do the laundry."

*************



Re: Pop/Soda



We never said "pop" or "soda" for soft drinks, although I had friends who

did.



We always used the name of the product or substance: "coke" for Coke,

"seven-up" for Seven-Up, "root beer," etc.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

International Service for National

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:04:22 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



>>

>> > They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as

>>though

>> > it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This

>>presumably

>> > reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>>

>>

>> NO! NO! NO! NO! I grew up on pop! (Los Angeles)

>>

> NO NO NO NO NO I grew on coke! (Louisville)



NO NO NO NO NO NO! I grew up in Louisville earlier (much earlier) on soft drink.

Dennis Preston

>

>--

>

>    ________________________________  __________________________

>                     |   "Two men walking up a

>    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

>    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

>    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

>                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

>    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:03:45 EDT

From:  Bruce Southard <ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



Saturday night I had dinner with a native of Asheville, NC, who told of

the culinary delights of ramps. I believe that he also said that

Asheville has a ramp festival. The proximity of Ashville to eastern

Tennessee obviously suggests a regional term; I had never before

encountered ramps here in eastern NC.



Regards,



Bruce Southard



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-328-6041

919-328-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:21:10 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: oj stuff -Reply



This morning on _Today_ I saw juror number 8 referring to the n-word

as an "epitat"--closer, but still no cigar.



Thanks for looking for that cite for me, Stephanie--no hurry.



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



>>> Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET> 10/7/95, 02:35am >>>

Just heard on Nightline, a juror being interviewed by Ted Koppel

referring to Mark Fuhrman, and talking about when he said the n-word,

an "epitaph."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:18:56 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



>>>

>>> > They've always been string beans to me. "Green beans" sounds to me as

>>>though

>>> > it would be said by those who say "pop" instead of "soda".  (This

>>>presumably

>>> > reflects my New York City roots.)   Larry

>>>

>>>

>>> NO! NO! NO! NO! I grew up on pop! (Los Angeles)

>>>

>> NO NO NO NO NO I grew on coke! (Louisville)

>

>NO NO NO NO NO NO! I grew up in Louisville earlier (much earlier) on soft

>drink.

>Dennis Preston



My two-year-old daughter identified all bubbly soft drinks at first as

"Diet Coke," the premier addiction of her mother. Since Diet Pepsis all

always cheaper at our local discount store, the child more regularly hears

and now understands "Diet Pepsi" as the generic term. Yesterday she passed

a store-brand soft drink machine and asked for a "Diet Pepsi orange."



I've noticed that my wife and her friends always ask one another about

having a "Diet Coke" and never a "coke"--since they won't drink any kind of

bubbly soft drink with sugar in it. Asking for a "Co-Cola," of course,

would be anathema in their upwardly bound way of thinking.



I grew up on soda water in San Antonio. I bought it at the ice house.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:20:00 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



>Saturday night I had dinner with a native of Asheville, NC, who told of

>the culinary delights of ramps. I believe that he also said that

>Asheville has a ramp festival. The proximity of Ashville to eastern

>Tennessee obviously suggests a regional term; I had never before

>encountered ramps here in eastern NC.

>

>Regards,

>

>Bruce Southard





Is "ramp" equivalent to "rape"--the vegetable, not the crime?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 09:49:23 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Anyone need an M-W 3rd Collegiate?



At the last DSNA Conference in Cleveland, I remember discussing

older dictionaries with someone, and mentioned that I had a copy

of MW 3rd Collegiate. This person badly wanted a copy. I can't

remember who this was, but I bought a copy at a book sale over

the weekend, so I now have a copy to dispose of. If this person

is reading this, please let me know and it's yours. Otherwise,

if anyone else wants a copy, make me an offer.



I also found a copy of WNID (first ed.), but that I'm keeping 8-).



Best,



Jesse Sheidlower

Random House Reference

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 07:10:18 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: place names



Pierre, capital of SD, rhymes with BEER or EAR.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:37:05 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



No, ramp is not the same as rape.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:24:33 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



"Bidniss" for "business" strikes me as distinctly Southern, but I just

heard (and noticed) a student tell other students, "There wadn't nothing

you could do about it." Is "wadn't" current elsewhere? Surely, it must

be. What other examples of /z/ to /d/ before a nasal are there? Are they

regional or general?







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:34:11 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



>Lastly, is the person who doesn't know what a hot dog "all the way" is for

>real? Is this an idiosyncracy or are there other wisconsinites with the same

>gap (bill?)? In Chile, if that's what you wanted, you ordered "un completo",

>which was amazing in its toppings, and very messy. My mouth is watering, let's

>not get back on junk food, please.

>

>Ellen JOhnson

>Univ. of Memphis (native of Atlanta)

>ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu

>



Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

I'm in Chicago, after all, and if ya want a hot dog here, ya better ask

for it "loaded" or "with the works," or even "with everything."



Kate



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:36:09 EDT

From:  Naomi Nagy <nagy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNAGI1K.CIS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: NWAVE hand-outs



This message is for those who will be speaking at NWAVE. We estimate about 180

people attending the conference. There will be 3 (and on Sat. afternoon, 4)

parallel sessions. Thus, you should provide at least 60 hand-outs for your

talk.



In order to facilitate distribution, your hand-out should be placed on the

table next to the entrance of the room where you will be speaking BEFORE YOUR

SESSION BEGINS. Extra hand-outs from earlier sessions will be made available

in the book exhibit area.



Also, due to the importance of having a question-answer period following each

talk, session chairs will be quite strict about stopping speakers at the end of

20 minutes in order to have 5 full minutes for questions. Please respect this

and plan your talk accordingly.



Thank you,

Naomi Nagy



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 08:39:00 -0700

From:  Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



I'm glad you asked. I say "idn't," "wadn't" and "doedn't" in casual

speech (I was born and raised in rural NW Indiana). I never noticed it

(some sociolinguist I am) until a Southerner pointed it out to me and said

Elvis Presley does this in a movie in order to sound like a hick. Since

then I've noticed my whole family says it but I haven't been back to

Indiana to check this with anyone else.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California, Berkeley

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 10:41:37 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



What about "idn't" for "isn't"?

I hear that one somewhat frequently.



Kate





>"Bidniss" for "business" strikes me as distinctly Southern, but I just

>heard (and noticed) a student tell other students, "There wadn't nothing

>you could do about it." Is "wadn't" current elsewhere? Surely, it must

>be. What other examples of /z/ to /d/ before a nasal are there? Are they

>regional or general?

>

>

>

>Wayne Glowka

>Professor of English

>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>Georgia College

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912-453-4222

>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:39:08 EDT

From:  Bruce Southard <ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



My understanding of ramp is as Bethany described it: an onion-like plant

which gives one very bad breath. The plant rape, I believe, is more

along the lines of a "green"; that is, something sort of like mustard

greens. So, I can't see hw the two could be the same.





Regards,



Bruce



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-328-6041

919-328-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:13:23 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



> I'm glad you asked. I say "idn't," "wadn't" and "doedn't" in casual

> speech (I was born and raised in rural NW Indiana). I never noticed it

> (some sociolinguist I am) until a Southerner pointed it out to me and said

> Elvis Presley does this in a movie in order to sound like a hick. Since



Idn't, wuhdn't, duhdn't, and hadn't (homophonic with the other "hadn't")

are used by all social classes in Mississippi.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:33:16 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Ah'm is/rapeseed/canola oil



Some Afro-American males I know who originally came from Georgia say



"Ah'm is" in response to a question, meaning "I am," or "Yes, I am."



These same people also say "Ah'm fisson (fixin')to (do something) for



I am about to do something.



______________________--



The politically correct term, euphemism or alternative name for rapeseed



oil is canola oil. Recently, it was discovered that most movie theaters



(or is it theatres where you came from) sold popcorn made with highly



saturated (in fat) coconut oil, which is extremely fattening and bad for you.



The sensitive ones switched to canola oil which is polyunsaturated and

advertised



their switch.



I presume that snake oil from the old cowboy movies comes from the snake

plant and



not from snakes.



Seth Sklarey

Coconut Grove,FL



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:52:05 EDT

From:  Naomi Nagy <nagy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNAGI1K.CIS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: fewer addresses



At this late stage in the game, I may actually figure out how not to send you

such long headers. That's all I have to say in this message.



Naomi



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:52:58 -0400

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> >Lastly, is the person who doesn't know what a hot dog "all the way" is for

> >real? Is this an idiosyncracy or are there other wisconsinites with the same

> >gap (bill?)? In Chile, if that's what you wanted, you ordered "un completo",

> >which was amazing in its toppings, and very messy. My mouth is watering, let's

> >not get back on junk food, please. (Ellen JOhnson, ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu)

>

> Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

> mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

> I'm in Chicago, after all, and if ya want a hot dog here, ya better ask

> for it "loaded" or "with the works," or even "with everything."



  Are you acquainted with Peter DeVries' short story, "Different

Cultural Levels Eat Here"? It's in *No, but I Saw the Movie*. Worth a

read, burger in hand.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 11:23:00 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



For examples of "wadn't" for "wasn't," see DARE vol I p. 179/2 in the entry

for "be" at section C2.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:33:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine <0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM>

Subject: . . .fun



Re ads-l as "infotainment" or "recreation":

I recently unsubscribed to wordplay-l (WordPlay-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Levels.UniSA.Edu.Au)

because I was getting too much "fun." It's a great list, and it offers

insights into words from all over the English world. But the volume of

e-mail was too great. I kept ads-l because occasionally I have a

serious word question that I think the American Dialect Society can

help me with. That was what "Copy Editor" newletter promised when it

recommended ads-l. Many of you have answered my questions, and I thank

you (I neglected to do that before). So keep up the fun, but be aware

that some of us need to be serious sometimes.





Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 12:57:06 +0100

From:  Steven S Russell <juggler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAWDUST.CVFN.ORG>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



You see? We had fun AND we all learned something.



Steve from Wisconsin - All The Way!



On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Robert Swets wrote:



> On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

> > >Lastly, is the person who doesn't know what a hot dog "all the way" is for

> > >real? Is this an idiosyncracy or are there other wisconsinites with the same

> > >gap (bill?)? In Chile, if that's what you wanted, you ordered "un completo",

> > >which was amazing in its toppings, and very messy. My mouth is watering, let's

> > >not get back on junk food, please. (Ellen JOhnson, ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu)

> >

> > Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

> > mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

> > I'm in Chicago, after all, and if ya want a hot dog here, ya better ask

> > for it "loaded" or "with the works," or even "with everything."

>

>  Are you acquainted with Peter DeVries' short story, "Different

> Cultural Levels Eat Here"? It's in *No, but I Saw the Movie*. Worth a

> read, burger in hand.

> *******************************************************************************

>                 __ __

>                 | | | |

>                 | | | |

>              ______| | | |______

>              (________) (________)

>               COLOR ME ORANGE

>                R. D. Swets

>            bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

> ******************************************************************************

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:10:02 EDT

From:  "Steven K. Brehe" <SBREHE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NUGGET.NGC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



"wadn't," "idn't," etc. are common is East Central Missouri,

where I grew up.



Steven Brehe

North Georgia College





Steven Brehe

sbrehe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nugget.ngc.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:45:09 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



I just saw a reference to a paper on this topic from 1959 (?) in the

secretary's report of the ADS bound with Harold Allen's "Semantic Confusion"

PADS volume. I don't have it with me right now.

                        Ellen JOhnson



>From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 9-OCT-1995 10:24:04.74

>Subj: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/

>

>"Bidniss" for "business" strikes me as distinctly Southern, but I just

>heard (and noticed) a student tell other students, "There wadn't nothing

>you could do about it." Is "wadn't" current elsewhere? Surely, it must

>be. What other examples of /z/ to /d/ before a nasal are there? Are they

>regional or general?

>

>

>

>Wayne Glowka

>Professor of English

>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>Georgia College

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912-453-4222

>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 13:57:31 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



>> Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

>> mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.



Interesting how some dialectal differences are still so surprising! I should

have known better, now that I think about it. I guess you guys are real, after

all.



Here's one that's bound to produce variation: what do you call the carts that

sell junk food at construction sites? Are any of you acquainted with any

construction workers? In South Florida, they were called "roach coaches"; I

think I've also heard the relatively bland "lunch truck"



Ellen



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:20:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



Hasn't there been something about idn't etc in _American Speech_ in the

last few years? Maybe I'm imagining that. Corky Feagin's book on

Anniston has info on it also.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:28:39 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



Kathleen O'Neill writes:



>>Lastly, is the person who doesn't know what a hot dog "all the way" is for

>>real? Is this an idiosyncracy or are there other wisconsinites with the same

>>gap (bill?)...

>>

>>Ellen JOhnson



>Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

>mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

>I'm in Chicago, after all, and if ya want a hot dog here, ya better ask

>for it "loaded" or "with the works," or even "with everything."



As at the hot-dog stand at the Zen monastery, where the standard order is

"Make me one with everything".



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:34:35 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Polk salad and rampy stuff



Bruce Southard writes



>My understanding of ramp is as Bethany described it: an onion-like plant

>which gives one very bad breath. The plant rape, I believe, is more

>along the lines of a "green"; that is, something sort of like mustard

>greens. So, I can't see hw the two could be the same.



Right; they're entirely distinct. Rape [RAH-pay], or broccoli rabe [as in

'rob'], or rabe [ditto], or rapini (as it's often called around here, which I

assume is because that's its Italian name), is a deliciously bitter version of

broccoli with thin, edible stalks, great parboiled and tossed with olive oil

and garlic, or sauteed with olive oil and garlic (grated Parmesan and/or lemon

optional), or cooked Chinese style.

  I can only second the comment of my Szechuan cookbook that bemoans the fact

that such a wonderful food has such an unfortunate name--sort of like "dolphin"

for that fish now usually called Mahi-Mahi: taboo avoidance strikes again.

No relation to the onion family, with no disrespect intended. (Some of my best

friends...)



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 15:56:56 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



>>> Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

>>> mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

>

>Interesting how some dialectal differences are still so surprising! I should

>have known better, now that I think about it. I guess you guys are real, after

>all.

>

>Here's one that's bound to produce variation: what do you call the carts that

>sell junk food at construction sites? Are any of you acquainted with any

>construction workers? In South Florida, they were called "roach coaches"; I

>think I've also heard the relatively bland "lunch truck"

>

>Ellen



My brother in Texas calls them "roach coaches" too.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 16:01:03 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



Please note:



"The /z/ - [d] Variable Rule in Negative Auxiliary Contractions in Southern

States English," by Bill Reynolds.



American Speech 69.4 (Winter 1994): 361-371.



(With citations of earlier studies.)



- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 14:42:06 -0600

From:  "Garland D. Bills" <gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



In my (North Texas) variety of English, the rule is generalized

approximately as follows: /z/ final of an auxiliary verb -> /d/ before

contracted (syllabic nasal) _not_. Consequently, I typically pronounce

not only _dudn't_, _wadn't_, and _idn't_, but also _hadn't_ for _hasn't_.

This rule seems to be pretty widespread, though speakers are often

totally unaware of it (on a conscious level) and upon reflection will

deny saying [hadnt] "because that's _had not_."



Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 19:17:16 -0400

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



On Mon, 9 Oct 1995 EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU wrote:



> >> Terribly sorry, Ellen, but I never heard the term "all the way" used to

> >> mean "with everything [on it]" until that posting.

>

> Interesting how some dialectal differences are still so surprising! I should

> have known better, now that I think about it. I guess you guys are real, after

> all.

>

> Here's one that's bound to produce variation: what do you call the carts that

> sell junk food at construction sites? Are any of you acquainted with any

> construction workers? In South Florida, they were called "roach coaches"; I

> think I've also heard the relatively bland "lunch truck"

>

"Honeywagons" back in Michigan, based on the euphemism for manure trucks

on the farm.



*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 23:52:23 -0400

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON <BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



 Wayne,



re: "ice house" in your last message. I had forgotten about them! I was at

Randolph for four years and had a friend who lived in San Antonio. She took me

to these places where you could buy cold drinks (including beer). People often

sat in their cars in the parking lot greeting friends and listening to the

music that blared from the loud speaker. Is that the kind of ice house you

mean?



Bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Oct 1995 to 9 Oct 1995

**********************************************





There are 31 messages totalling 913 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. place names (2)

 2. Delete that last message! (3)

 3. as it were (9)

 4. Another Lexical Item

 5. /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/ (2)

 6. miscellany, lexical

 7. pop/green/string beans (2)

 8. PBS language series and ling funding

 9. /mIzrIz/

 10. Collecting things (I collect warnings) (2)

 11. ornery (6)

 12. Who's got the right one, baby (UH-HUH)?



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 Oct 1995 21:25:32 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



Well, y'all your own sef:

Please get Terry to instruct y'all in the seriosity of what y'all are

doing here.



Cheers,

tlc





On Sat, 7 Oct 1995, Kev wrote:



> Well, y'all...

>

> How's about Versailles? (Ver-saylz) Ohio and Kentucky... Rowan County,

> Kentucky (Rauwun). I could go on.... But these are merely a couple from here

> in Chillicothe, (chill-i-KOTH-ee)!

>

>

> --

> Thanks for reading!

> KVK III

> (Terry Iron's student who is still awaiting the assignment via E-mail!)

>

> "There's a tree by the brook

> And a songbird who sings."

>     Led Zepplin

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 01:48:51 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: place names



Uh... Ok...



I'm not real sure if this was meant as a flame or as a joke, but I have

a strange feeling that it was a flame. I'll grant you that I don't know

a whole lot about the ADS list, but I did snoop for a while before

entering, and the reply that I sent to the place names seemed to flow

with the rest of the conversation. If you somehow think that this is a

waste of bandwidth, could you substantiate the claim in some manner?

If you were offended by the use of the word y'all, I apologize... I was

not attempting to ridicule anyone, nor was I trying to be cute... This

is my way of speaking. Being from Ohio, I promised myself that I would never

"catch" the Kentucky accent, but I have acquired the "y'all," and I use

it in written and oral form.

If you believe that Terry is in the wrong for giving me the address, perhaps

you should address him about your problem as opposed to me, for he would

be the one to talk to about it. He is a teacher of mine who gave me the

address because he knew that I am very interested in Linguistics and

dialects. Hence, here I am! If you would care to be more specific in your

objection, please, feel free. I await your reply...





--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III



"I hate to wake you up

 Just to say goodbye."

    Leavin' (On a Jet Plane)

    Peter, Paul, and Mary



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 01:54:55 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Delete that last message!



Sorry about that y'all...



I didn't mean to send that to the list... I meant to send it privately.



While I'm here, though, I would like to pose a question...

I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III



"We get the funniest looks from

 Everyone we meet."

    The Monkees Theme Song

    The Monkees



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:05:47 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: as it were



> I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

> were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

> past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

> not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!



if i were you, i'd check out "subjunctive mood" in a handbook of

english. then again, when i look it up in _the modern writer's

handbook_, i see, "the subjunctive mood is falling into disuse." witness

dilbert mccoy's current hit (country song), "if i was a drinkin' man."



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:48:07 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Another Lexical Item



At 4:14 PM 10/8/95, Natalie Maynor wrote:

>> back to the major point -- which were you told and which do you tell very

>> young children at Halloween (when did we lose the apostrophe?) to go 'up'

>> (?) in order to knock at doors and yell "Trick or Treat!"?

>

In my childhood, it was go "up to the door", but either up or down the

street depending on one's orientation and perspective.



(Of course, when I was real little, we lived in an apartment house, so

sidewalks or walkways of any sort were totally irrelevant. We confined our

Trick or Treating to the other apartments)



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 00:49:02 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



At 11:24 AM 10/9/95, Wayne Glowka wrote:

>"Bidniss" for "business" strikes me as distinctly Southern, but I just

>heard (and noticed) a student tell other students, "There wadn't nothing

>you could do about it." Is "wadn't" current elsewhere?

>

I've only heard "bidniss" in the South and from Southerners. But now that

you mention it, I have heard "wadn't" here in Northern California.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 07:28:56 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: miscellany, lexical



>Here's one that's bound to produce variation: what do you call the carts that

>sell junk food at construction sites? Are any of you acquainted with any

>construction workers? In South Florida, they were called "roach coaches"; I

>think I've also heard the relatively bland "lunch truck"

>

>Ellen

>

One of the reasons they are called roach coaches, aside from the obvious

is many had custom horns that playe, among other things, the Mexican song,

"La Cucaracha."



In South Florida we also call cockroaches palmetto bugs.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL,



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:18:49 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



> Wayne,

>

>re: "ice house" in your last message. I had forgotten about them! I was at

>Randolph for four years and had a friend who lived in San Antonio. She took me

>to these places where you could buy cold drinks (including beer). People often

>sat in their cars in the parking lot greeting friends and listening to the

>music that blared from the loud speaker. Is that the kind of ice house you

>mean?

>

>Bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



Yes and no. I was too young to go to the real ice house where men drank

beer and played dominoes and where curb service was supplied. We went to

something that looked for all intents and purposes like a convenience

store. But just like Beavis and Butthead (who seem to be modeled on me and

my friends) we hung around what we called the ice house, looking for

trouble and often finding it.



I saw a nice article a couple of years ago in a San Antonio newspaper about

famous neighborhood ice houses. They looked like throwbacks to an earlier,

more idyllic time.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 07:35:45 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: /z/ + /n/ = /d/ + /n/



Yes, Bill Reynolds has an article in the Winter 1994 American Speech.

Cindy Bernstein



On Mon, 9 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> Hasn't there been something about idn't etc in _American Speech_ in the

> last few years? Maybe I'm imagining that. Corky Feagin's book on

> Anniston has info on it also.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:34:23 -0500

From:  Shana Walton <swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OCEAN.ST.USM.EDU>

Subject: PBS language series and ling funding



Xpost from LINGUIST:



> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 2)

> Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 15:08:54 PDT

> From: LANGENDOEN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Linguistics.arizona.edu (Terry Langendoen)

> Subject: from Gene Searchinger, re PBS series on linguistics

>

> This is from Gene Searchinger, producer of THE HUMAN LANGUAGE SERIES

> that appeared on PBS this year. He'd like to make an announcement, and

> answer some of the letters that have appeared here. He says:

>

> Dear linguists,

>

> The 3-part film series is now available to universities on video

> cassette. We have just sent out a mailing about it. Call 800-343-5540

> if you didn't get it. Now, comments.

>

>

> Thanks to all of you who have said such kind things. Thanks to all the

> participants (about 50 linguists and "others"), and thanks especially to

> the hundreds of you whom we interviewed but couldn't get into the

> programs. Because three one-hour shows is too short, many wonderful

> people had to be left out and fascinating topics had to be dropped for

> time. Understandably, a few people wrote that "you didn't say enough

> about our side." They're right and, of course, there are many sides.

> So choices had to be made. George Miller got us started with four

> outstanding consultants (Terry Langendoen, Ivan Sag, Judy Kegl, and Dan

> Slobin). But the final selection of participants was made by us and by

> fate. Geo is in no way guilty of our failings.

>

> Dan Slobin reacted to all this with kind understanding, and Lise Menn

> picked up on a supremely important part of the problem: funding the

> series. There is an interesting linkage here, between funding problems

> and the choices we made about subject matter.

>

> The linkage factor is the massive lack of awareness about language on

> the part of the general public on the one hand, and the potential

> funders on the same hand. Did you know that not a single foundation

> (not one among the thousands) has "language" or "linguistics" on its

> approved list of fundable subjects? This is a non topic to them. (And

> no private corporation showed the slightest knowledge or interest.)

> Why is language so little understood? Why is THE HUMAN LANGUAGE SERIES

> the only resource like this available to teachers in psychology,

> linguistics, and all the language arts? And, given the problem, how did

> we ever get the project off the ground in the first place?

>

> Answer: because two, and now three federal government agencies do have

> linguistics on their list of fundable topics, and none of them had

> succeeded in finding a TV project worthy of their attention, they said,

> until we came along. (The agencies are the NEH, the NSF, and - now -

> the NIMH.) They were pleased that, at last, they could do something to

> enlighten people about linguistics. Hurray for government funding!

> Down with the Congress that wants to kill it off.

>

> Because of the mass ignorance we found in the general audience,

> spreading the word is important. How ignorant are they out there? My

> estimate is that 98% of our audience and our potential funders believes

> some or all of the following:

>

> That there must be - oh - 300 languages in the world; that there are 32

> words for snow in Eskimo; that Natives in Darkest Africa speak in

> grunts; that sign language is the same thing worldwide, so why don't we

> all learn it?; that Ozark is leftover Elizabethian English; that a

> linguist is someone who knows a lot of languages; that people in the

> inner cities - meaning blacks - speak a debased English with

> impoverished vocabulary and a vast ignorance of grammar; that everyone

> learns language from their parents (they all believe this). And

> Chomsky? Isn't he that guy who - uh - something political...

>

> The general public's knowledge about language is so primitive (as mine

> was when I started), that we view important arguments between

> "functionalists" and "nativist," for example, as too special for the

> immediate task. Our job, we believe, is to deliver the shocking news

> that: Many leading linguists believe there are aspects of langusge that

> we do not need to learn in the usual way; that chimpanzees and dolphins

> cannot learn human syntax, NOVA to the contary notwithstanding; that the

> languages of the world have basic things in common; that children have a

> grasp of grammar before they know how to tie their shoes; that facial

> expressions in Papua New Guinea are largely the same as they are on 72nd

> Street and Broadway; that important things happened in evolution when

> our larynx "fell"; that words are indefinable constructions that must be

> learned but that sentences are created new each time; and so on and so

> on. Those were the kinds of things we made the show about, because

> people don't know them. The subtleties of "learning," to pick an issue

> singled out by Liz Bates, must be left to you to explain in the

> classroom.

>

> To help me make the point, here is part of a letter we just received

> from the Vice-Rector of Minsk State Linguistics University, Professor

> Arnold E. Michnevich:

>

> Your [series] is beyond doubt a unique achievement ...To many of our

> researchers the films have become a stimulus to better understanding complex

> linguistic phenomena and their non-traditional interpretations. One cannot but

>

> be but impressed by the highest possible level of scientific research attained

> and its superb presentation.

>

> To all you wonderful linguists: Keep up the good fight - among

> yourselves, if you must - but mostly to educate the rest of us.

>

> Thanks. Gene Searchinger

>

>

>

>

>

> ******************************************************************

> Terry Langendoen, Dept Linguistics, U Arizona, Tucson AZ 85721 USA

> Phone: +1 520 621-4790            Fax: +1 520 621-9424

> Email: langendt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Arizona.EDU OR langendoen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linguistics.Arizona.EDU

> WWW homepage: url=http://aruba.ccit.arizona.edu/~langendt

> I'm currently on sabbatial and only checking email irregularly.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> LINGUIST List: Vol-6-1372.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:28:35 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Delete that last message!



>I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

>were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

>past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

>not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!

>KVK III



Kev-



The entry in "A Dictionary of American Idioms" (2nd Ed., Adam Makkai,

ISBN 0-8120-3899-1) for AS IT WERE reads as follows:



"adv.phr. As it might be said to be; as if it really were; seemingly.

-Used with a statement that might seem silly or unreasonable, to show

that it is just a way of saying it. 'In many ways children live, as it

were, in a different world from adults.' (Children and adults seem to

live in different worlds, but it's just because their interests are so

different.) 'The sunlight on the icy branches made, as it were, delicate

lacy cobwebs from tree to tree.' (The ice on the trees seemed to be

lacy cobwebs.) Compare to SO TO SPEAK."



Hope that helps. Of course, you need to be aware that the "were" in that

phrase is _not_ the plural past tense "were," but a subjunctive "were."







;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 09:29:33 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



I believe it's NEAL McCoy. :-)



--Kate



>> I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

>> were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

>> past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

>> not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!

>

>if i were you, i'd check out "subjunctive mood" in a handbook of

>english. then again, when i look it up in _the modern writer's

>handbook_, i see, "the subjunctive mood is falling into disuse." witness

>dilbert mccoy's current hit (country song), "if i was a drinkin' man."

>

>sylvia swift

>madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:30:05 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: /mIzrIz/



I just realized this morning that it has been a good ten years since I

heard an announcer use the pronunciation /mIzrIz/ for "Mrs." But I no

longer listen to the obituary reports on Milledgeville radio and have not

attended a homecoming football game where the mothers of the homecoming

court are introduced and handed flowers.



Is /mIzrIz/ hanging on out there?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 08:14:46 -0700

From:  "J.Russell King" <jrking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: pop/green/string beans



I was at

>Randolph for four years and had a friend who lived in San Antonio.

She took me

>to these places where you could buy cold drinks (including beer).





A somewhat related note of trivia: the Southland Corporation, owners of

the ubiquitous 7-11 convenience stores, started out as an ice company.

Somebody got the bright idea that since customers had to come buy ice

every couple of days, they might as well be able to pick up milk and

bread at the same time. The rest, as they say, . . .



jrking



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:47:07 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



Sylvia,



Stay tuned long enough to a C&W station, and you'll find that the

subjunctive mood is alive and well, but the form is "was".



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:17:54 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



> Stay tuned long enough to a C&W station, and you'll find that the

> subjunctive mood is alive and well, but the form is "was".



if i stay tuned to a c&w station long enough, i'll never finish my

dissertation. i have noticed that there is also a song currently in

mediumish rotation with the hook (and possibly the title) "if i were you,

i'd fall in love with me."



in dialects where indicative and subjunctive are now identical, i would

argue that subjunctive is no longer alive and well.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:47:18 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Collecting things (I collect warnings)



At Ivar's Acres of Clams, a local seafood joint, there used to be, and

still may be, a sign that said something like: "To married men: No more

than two cups of Clam Nectar without a note from your wife." They still

sell lots of the stuff, though its efficacy seems dubious.



Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:54:25 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Delete that last message!



It's the subjunctive, unless I be mistaken. And if I were, it would be

the first time.

Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425







On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Kev wrote:



> Sorry about that y'all...

>

> I didn't mean to send that to the list... I meant to send it privately.

>

> While I'm here, though, I would like to pose a question...

> I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

> were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

> past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

> not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!

>

> --

> Thanks for reading!

> KVK III

>

> "We get the funniest looks from

> Everyone we meet."

>     The Monkees Theme Song

>     The Monkees

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 12:54:56 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: ornery



Most of my students say ornery with two syllables. Roughly 7% say it

with three. Is that consistant with other regions?







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 11:57:19 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



I believe it's the REAL Mc Coy.

Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425







On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> I believe it's NEAL McCoy. :-)

>

> --Kate

>

> >> I have heard the phrase, "as it were," such as, "The ball was round, as it

> >> were." The question I have, though, stems from the use of the plural

> >> past tense "were." If it were to be "grammatically" correct, would that

> >> not be "as it was"? Or is this a regional type of thing? Just a thought!

> >

> >if i were you, i'd check out "subjunctive mood" in a handbook of

> >english. then again, when i look it up in _the modern writer's

> >handbook_, i see, "the subjunctive mood is falling into disuse." witness

> >dilbert mccoy's current hit (country song), "if i was a drinkin' man."

> >

> >sylvia swift

> >madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:05:50 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Collecting things (I collect warnings)



>At Ivar's Acres of Clams, a local seafood joint, there used to be, and

>still may be, a sign that said something like: "To married men: No more

>than two cups of Clam Nectar without a note from your wife." They still

>sell lots of the stuff, though its efficacy seems dubious.

>

>Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

>           smail: English Department Seattle University

>               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425



This somehow reminds me of a revised warning on a condom machine in a men's

room in a diner featuring barbecue in a small town in North Carolina off

I-77 just south of the Virginia border. Someone had scraped off part of

the usual limiting claim, and the remainder read:



"Sold only for the prevention of . . . ease."



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 14:38:01 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



According to the song's narrative, Neal McCoy's subjunctive man was,

in his real past, indeed a drinkin' man. Hence, the subjunctive

grounded in the simple past: "If I (still) was a drinkin' man"

which, for lyric writing/music purposes would be "If I was (still) a

drinkin' man".



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:05:15 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



>Most of my students say ornery with two syllables. Roughly 7% say it

>with three. Is that consistant with other regions?

>Tom Uharriet





How funny this should come up.

Funny strange, not funny ha ha.

Anyway...

I cite my mother's idiolect an awful lot, because hers is one of

the most eccentric I know of.

At any rate, I grew up hearing her call us "AHN ree" with a very

nasal initial vowel -- and for no good reason, I might add. :-)



I had _no clue_ how to spell it for many years.



When I first heard someone pronounce "ornery" as "ORN ree" (which

occurred before I ever heard someone say "ORN uh ree") I thought

they were speaking in Swahili or something.

But I now pronounce it "ORN ree," swallowing the middle syllable

completely.



Of course, my mother comes from Baltimore and, well, there are some

fun pronunciations in Baltimore.



Any Baltimoreans out there?



All my life I struggled with my mother over her pronunciation of "or-"

spellings, like "orange" and "forest." She says "FAHR est"; I say

"FOOR est."

But there are others:

all my relatives (since they ALL live in Balto) sound as if they're

saying "ahrn" for "iron," "doll" for "dial," "iggul" for "eagle," etc.



Sorry about the tangent ... must be old home week or something. :-)





;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 16:04:06 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



My father was from western Kentucky (Madisonville), and though he suc=

cessfully=20

cultivated an Inland Northern linguistic fa=E7ade, when he was at eas=

e he used=20

the term often, pronouncing it with two syllables [a:nri], as in "the=

 dawg was=20

gittin' [a:nri]. I never heard him say it any other way. Here in NE W=

isconsin=20

it's pronounced with three syllables, more or less like it's spelled.



DWL



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:31:27 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



Larry,

You wrote,

> Here in NE Wisconsin [ornery is]

> pronounced with three syllables, more or less like it's spelled.

> DWL



Do they pronounce both r's ?



Does anyone know why/when the first r is not pronounced?







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 17:09:53 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



> > Here in NE Wisconsin [ornery is]

> > pronounced with three syllables, more or less like it's spelled.

> > DWL

>

> Do they pronounce both r's ?

>

> Does anyone know why/when the first r is not pronounced?



Isn't it? It is for me: or-nuh-ry.



Speaking of "or" words, does anybody else find it odd that "bore"

is given in the Fromkin-Rodman chart of key words to represent "aw"?

My students couldn't figure out why there were different symbols for

the vowel in "boat" and the vowel in "bore." I told them to ignore

"bore" and substitute "paw." (We then discussed briefly the horse/hoarse

distinction, but I do think a more consistently pronounced key word

should be given in an introductory textbook.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 15:28:46 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



> According to the song's narrative, Neal McCoy's subjunctive man was,

> in his real past, indeed a drinkin' man. Hence, the subjunctive

> grounded in the simple past: "If I (still) was a drinkin' man"

> which, for lyric writing/music purposes would be "If I was (still) a

> drinkin' man".



here i would say "man *had been*, in his real past,indeed a drinkin' man"

etc.



if i was a drinkin' man

like i used to be

i'd get myself a bottle and

you'd be history



you made me a thinkin' man

when you walked out

if i was a drinkin' man

i wouldn't need you now





explicitly says that he once was, but is no longer, a drinkin' man. thus

the form of be in the first line expresses a condition contrary to fact,

and subjunctive is called for. i think it has to be expressed in past

because it is in the past relative to the "then" clauses (which are in

subjunctive; note that it's not "i'll get myself . . . /you'll be history").



geez, who would have thought the subjunctive were so complicated?



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 20:58:09 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:

> Stay tuned long enough to a C&W station, and you'll find that the

> subjunctive mood is alive and well, but the form is "was".



Forgive my saying so, but if the "subjunctive" is "was", then there is no

subjunctive, in the grammatical sense, however much there may be a

subjunctive in the semantic sense, which there will always be, as long as

there are counterfactual/hypothetical or otherwise uncertain

propositions.

    Best.         'Bye.          Steve

H Stephen STRAIGHT             Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics   LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric    VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 22:02:21 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: as it were



I have read have a dozen postings saying that the subjunctive does/doesn't

exist, on the evidence of "If I was.." The anti's say that the subjunctive

has given way to the indicative past, but no one has noted that "If I

was/were..." is not past, it is present:

"If I were now as I once was..." If the subjunctive _were_ dead, we would

say, "If I am..."

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 21:22:22 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Who's got the right one, baby (UH-HUH)?



This query concerns not soda, pop, soda pop, coke, or soft drink, but 'uh-huh'

and its negative companion, 'uh-uh'. Spellings are of course approximate, but

I'm following the OED Supplement and J. C. Wells (Accents of English, vol. 3:

Beyond the British Isles, 1982), who describes them as follows, in a section

devoted to borrowings into Am. Eng. via the 'creole, African-derived

substratum' of Black English. (I use [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] for schwa, V~ for nasalized vowel,

M for voiceless bilabial nasal, and ? for glottal stop.)



     There are also the grunts sometimes spelt UH-HUH and UH-UH

     respectively. The first, 'yes', is phonetically ['[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]~h[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]~, 'mMm],

     hence nasal or nasalized; it usually has a rising tone pattern...

     The second, 'no', is ['?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]?'?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE], '?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]~?'?[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]~, '?m?'m], sometimes with

     a lengthened final segment, an initial [h], and/or a final extra

     glottal stop; it is not necessarily nasal, and has an accented

     final syllable, with an obligatorily falling tonal pattern.

                           (Wells 1982: 556)



Wells goes on to assert that the positive "grunt" is 'quite at home in

Britain', while the negative uh-uh is a recent import from the States or West

Indies--via Africa. This split-source hypothesis seems odd to me, given

how closely the two forms (each with its open and close-mouthed versions)

track each other in modern (American) English. Wells is also close-mouthed

himself on just WHAT African source he has in mind for 'uh-huh'. Nor is the

OED much help: it just indicates that each is of [Imitative] origin.

One wonders: Imitative of what? As one of my students reminds me, there's

also a variant of the negative "grunt" that can be transcribed as 'nuh-uhn'

(modulo the usual arbitrariness of these spellings).

I assume, without any particular evidence, that this represents a

relatively recent blend of our (Afro-)American 'uh-uh' above with the initial

n- of so many negative adverbs and particles. Can anyone out there clarify

any of these histories or geographies?



Larry



P.S. I love Webster's (NID3) solution to the phonetics of 'uh-huh': within

the usual backslashes we find not the usual symbols or any approximation

thereof, but the prose statement \a disyllabic sound with m-sounds at the

beginning & end, an h-like interval of voicelessness between, & heavier stress

on the first member...\   (Incidentally, I'm not sure I agree with Webster's

and Wells in finding uh-huh primarily stressed on the initial syllable.) As

for uh-uh, it doesn't seem to be in Webster's at all, despite its appearance in

Dashiell Hammett's Maltese Falcon (1930, cited by the OED).



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 Oct 1995 23:48:27 -0400

From:  Elaine Green <elaineg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> I cite my mother's idiolect an awful lot, because hers is one of

> the most eccentric I know of.

> At any rate, I grew up hearing her call us "AHN ree" with a very

> nasal initial vowel -- and for no good reason, I might add. :-)



>

> Of course, my mother comes from Baltimore and, well, there are some

> fun pronunciations in Baltimore.

>

> Any Baltimoreans out there?





I was born in Baltimore, and raised in the Suburbs between Baltimore and

D.C.. I say ornery with three syllables like Kathleen, not like her

Mother from Baltimore. I didn't recognize any of the other

pronunciations she listed, but that could be because I didn't grow up in

Baltimore proper. There definitely are some "fun" pronunciations from

Baltimore- it has been interesting working on a Linguistic Atlas project

in Georgia after growing up in Maryland. I might add that working at

the Atlas has also made me realize that I use positive anymore (as we recently

discussed on the list not to long ago). Now everyone enjoys

"catching" me because I swore that I didn't use that construction. But

that's probably not Baltimorean- that's probably from all the time I spent

in the mountains of central Pennsylvania.



Elaine Green

University of Georgia



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Oct 1995 to 10 Oct 1995

***********************************************





There are 32 messages totalling 874 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. as it were (4)

 2. go up to (4)

 3. Ornery

 4. mrs

 5. mrs/miz'/gazz (3)

 6. ornery (3)

 7. Who's got the right one, baby (UH-HUH)?

 8. oj and chocolate (2)

 9. the dictionary of stereotypes (2)

 10. Terrorism vs. sabotage (2)

 11. Ornery Kathleen (3)

 12. zapping (2)

 13. zapping, zappers & binger-bongers

 14. If I was (2)

 15. LJP Issue #2 is Now Available for Web-Browsing



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:21:55 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



Of course William H. Smith is right, and I am wrong: The use of "was" in

place of "were" is no less subjunctive, in the limited grammatical status

of that mood in English. If I would have been more careful to think

before I speak, I wouldn't have muddied the waters about the "loss" of a

distinctive subjunctive mood in English. Sorry.



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, William H. Smith wrote:

> I have read have a dozen postings saying that the subjunctive does/doesn't

> exist, on the evidence of "If I was.." The anti's say that the subjunctive

> has given way to the indicative past, but no one has noted that "If I

> was/were..." is not past, it is present:

> "If I were now as I once was..." If the subjunctive _were_ dead, we would

> say, "If I am..."

> Bill Smith

> Piedmont College



    Best.         'Bye.          Steve

H Stephen STRAIGHT             Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics   LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric    VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 00:26:48 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: go up to



This has probably reached "mootdom," but "up" in the sense of "go up to the

door" to me would mean "right up to."



"Walk up the street," however would be going north, up a slope, or walking

towards a position that the speaker is psychologically identifying with.



This last one is similar to "I'm coming!" in response to a dinner call,

where the speaker puts themself (sorry, I like it) psychologically in the

physical location of the rest of the family.



Again, this is my feel. I have never little written on these subjects.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:05:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: as it were



The subjunctive is still surviving in the US, but in the UK it is almost

dead. Many of the people I work with are native UK-speakers and some of the

things they come up with are jarring to my ear, to say the least.



For "John suggested that Jim _go_ to the show" you find the following

variations:



The most innocuous is "John suggested that Jim _should go_ to the show."



The one that drives me wild is "John suggested that Jim _went_ to the show."



And I suspect that there are many people who can't deal with it at all and

try to use sentences that never require the subjenctive.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:15:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: Ornery



Re: Ornery



I always say it "ORN ree" but I can't remember if we used it when I was

growing up in Utah or if it's something I picked up later in my travels.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

International Service for National

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 06:58:43 -0500

From:  EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU

Subject: mrs



I forwarded your msg to Marvin Ching, who is doing a project on pronunciations

of Mrs.



His address is chingmkl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuvx1.memphis.edu

>

>I recently conducted an oral reading of a passage with informants. An

>African-American, who used all /s/s for GREASY said the MIZIRIS word.

>However, he had lived for some years in the Chicago and was in the armed

>forces, too.

>

>Marvin Ching

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:28:37 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: go up to



>This has probably reached "mootdom," but "up" in the sense of "go up to the

>door" to me would mean "right up to."

>

>"Walk up the street," however would be going north, up a slope, or walking

>towards a position that the speaker is psychologically identifying with.

>



>

>yoroshiku

>Benjamin Barrett

>



The reason you go "up a walk" to a house is that if you didn't, the yard

and the house would flood every time it rained. We're talking common sense

here, not dialect.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 08:48:07 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



>I forwarded your msg to Marvin Ching, who is doing a project on pronunciations

>of Mrs.

>

>His address is chingmkl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuvx1.memphis.edu

>>

>>I recently conducted an oral reading of a passage with informants. An

>>African-American, who used all /s/s for GREASY said the MIZIRIS word.

>>However, he had lived for some years in the Chicago and was in the armed

>>forces, too.

>>

>>Marvin Ching

>>

>>

>



While we are discussing fun-etic mispronounciations how about MESSERS for the

gentlemen?



Was Br'er Rabbbit ahead of his time politically correct with MIZ'?

______________



On another subject gazz/oranjoose



There is a New York/New Jersey/Jewish pronounciation of GAZZ for gas

and ORANJOOSE as one word for orange juice. However, only New Jersey seems

to use CHAWKLIT for chocolate.



Seth Sklarey

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:40:41 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: go up to



>>This has probably reached "mootdom," but "up" in the sense of "go up to the

>>door" to me would mean "right up to."

>>

>>"Walk up the street," however would be going north, up a slope, or walking

>>towards a position that the speaker is psychologically identifying with.

>>

>

>>

>>yoroshiku

>>Benjamin Barrett

>>

>

>The reason you go "up a walk" to a house is that if you didn't, the yard

>and the house would flood every time it rained. We're talking common sense

>here, not dialect.

>

>Seth Sklarey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>Coconut Grove, FL



Real estate books warn that a buyer should look for a house "above grade."







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:49:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



>While we are discussing fun-etic mispronounciations how about MESSERS for the

>gentlemen?

>

When I've heard /mIzrIz/, no one has been laughing. As an outsider, I

noticed the difference. When queried, however, my local students usually

say that they have never noticed the difference. I once had a student who

said that her mother told her that the correct pronunciation of "Mrs." was

/mIzrIz/. Formal occasions have great potential for unintended humor, but

no one seemed to flinch over /mIzrIz/, which I have seldom heard and can

remember hearing in the two places I listed in the previous post. By the

way, the speakers were both white Southern males.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:44:51 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



Kathleen Sheridan writes,



>The subjunctive is still surviving in the US, but in the UK it is almost

>dead. Many of the people I work with are native UK-speakers and some of the

>things they come up with are jarring to my ear, to say the least.

>

>For "John suggested that Jim _go_ to the show" you find the following

>variations:

>

>The most innocuous is "John suggested that Jim _should go_ to the show."



>The one that drives me wild is "John suggested that Jim _went_ to the show."

But this one, depending on the context, may have been intended as an

indicative: "I suggest that the glove was planted". Are you sure this was

really meant as a subjunctive? If so, weird indeed. Do you hear folks

across the pond saying "If I am you" rather than "If I were/was you" too?

That one strikes me as even less likely. I think the use of 'should' in con-

texts like the one you cite has been around for ages, on the other hand; indeed

some linguists have suggested deriving "John suggested that Jim go" from a

structure containing 'should' in the subordinate clause, so that THIS "sub-

junctive" (but obviously not the "If I were you" one) would contain a 0 modal.

Clearly, "subjunctive" is a term performing different jobs for us.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 09:59:38 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



In NE Wisconsin "they" do pronounce both r's. As I listen more closely, I'm not

sure any more if the second (of three) syllables is really pronounced or if

there's a long onset for the second /r/.



DWL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:07:46 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: go up to



>>This has probably reached "mootdom," but "up" in the sense of "go up to

> the

>>door" to me would mean "right up to."

>>

>>"Walk up the street," however would be going north, up a slope, or walking

>>towards a position that the speaker is psychologically identifying with.



>>yoroshiku

>>Benjamin Barrett



>

>The reason you go "up a walk" to a house is that if you didn't, the yard

>and the house would flood every time it rained. We're talking common sense

>here, not dialect.

>

>Seth Sklarey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>Coconut Grove, FL



I have to disagree. Walking up to a person means to draw near, not to

prevent oneself from being drownded by a rainstorm. Similarly, I would say

that Gilligan is "going up to the door to Ginger's hut" even though they

didn't have any steps at all.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:26:10 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Who's got the right one, baby (UH-HUH)?



re: uh-uh



i really wonder about that etymology (from africa). i think the

characterization of it as a "grunt" is part of what makes me

suspicious. "grunting" is a frequent stereotype of african languages

by americans who've never heard them.



my west african knowledge is almost all second hand, but none of the

sounds here seem right--the glottals and the central vowel.

agreement and disagreement sounds i know from africa are "ee"

and "oo". in beng (southern mande lg of cote d'ivoire--dictionaries

now available from indiana u. ling. club, plug plug), agreement is

"ee" with low tones, but the negative "not" is "E" with a high tone.



but then again, all these long vowels might be susceptible to

separation by glottalization in a non-tonal language, maybe.

one thing beng does have that might be related to an uh-uh is "n`n'"

(that is, low-high tones) for agreement. (the same tone pattern used

with "oo" is also agreement.) i'm, of course, not saying this came

from beng--i don't think they figured greatly in the slave trade--but

this is the type of thing that is likely to be an areal, rather than

genetic feature, don't you think?



so, after a defensive start, i'd say maybe uh-huh and uh-uh do have

african origins.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:51:53 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: oj and chocolate



>There is a New York/New Jersey/Jewish pronounciation of GAZZ for gas

>and ORANJOOSE as one word for orange juice. However, only New Jersey seems

>to use CHAWKLIT for chocolate.



>Seth Sklarey

>Coconut Grove, FL



I usually say "ornjjuss" when speaking casually. "chaklit" to me sounds

natural, too. Also, "kerml" for caramel.



I am a fourth-generation Seattlite on my mother's side and second- on my

father's.



My grandmother from WVa says "greazy" for greasy, but I don't recall how she

says gas.

yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:00:24 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



DARE Vol III will have a pretty full treatment of both the pronunciations

and the senses of "ornery." Can you wait till fall of '96?



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 11:11:34 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



DARE has examples of /mIzrIz/ from 1909 _Dialect Notes_ (east AL and w GA),

from 1960 in csKY, from 1967-69 in swKY, LA, seAL, wTN, and from 1970 in TN.

Lucille Bailey (1142 Forest Drive, Kokomo, IN 46901) has also written a

paper on this. I'm sure she'd send you a copy if you'd like it.



Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 12:23:10 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: oj and chocolate



>>There is a New York/New Jersey/Jewish pronounciation of GAZZ for gas

>>and ORANJOOSE as one word for orange juice. However, only New Jersey seems

>>to use CHAWKLIT for chocolate.

>

>>Seth Sklarey

>>Coconut Grove, FL



Actually, I surveyed my student workers here in the Language Lab

and we ALL say something like CHAWKLIT.

Funny. :-)

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 10:31:57 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: as it were



i love this list! i thought this thread was just fun, but it has turned

out to be very useful to me; i had completely failed to notice that a form

such as "if i was" *is* marked compared to indicative. even before bill

smith's useful post, i had been bothered by my inability to completely

account for the relation of subjunctive (especially in if constructions)

to sequence of tenses. when i have studied foreign languages (french,

latin, russian), the units introducing subjunctive have focussed on

sequence of tenses and temporal relationship between clauses. i think

this is underemphasized in the teaching of subjunctive in english (kevin,

if you're still on the list, crews' _random house handbook_ is better at

this than o'hare's handbook).



i now wonder if most americans who think the subjunctive is dead or dying

made my mistake, or if they're talking about the death of such

constructions as "if this be treason," etc.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 13:05:14 -0400

From:  Sylvia Keys <skeys[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PIONEER.USPTO.GOV>

Subject: Re: the dictionary of stereotypes



African Queen (female who looks good), African King

(a male who looks good)

On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:



> > From: vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dectlk.ENET.dec.com

> > Subject: Request for ethnic terms

> >

> > There is a "linguistics" issue which readers of this discussion group

> > could probably help me with. I'm writing a dictionary and some papers

> > on the lexicalization of ethnic expressions. I began working on this

> > 14 years ago. I've been collecting some ethnic expressions such as

> > Mexican Standoff, Dutch Courage, Chinese Firedrill, French Fries,

> > Swedish Ivy, etc.

> >

> > I have a large number of these words and phrases (450pp single-spaced)

> > but the number of languages is small relative to the number of major

> > languages (approx. 6500) spoken in the world today.

> >

> > If you or friends and colleagues who are native speakers of or

> > specialists in various languages can think of any, I'd appreciate a

> > list of these.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:15:45 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Terrorism vs. sabotage



A colleague asked a good question today, one that I thought I knew the

answer to but now am not so sure. In connection with the derailing of the

Sunset Limited this week, an Amtrak official apparently said they were

trying to determine if it was an act of "terrorism or sabotage." My

colleague logically asked what the difference is between the two.

After launching into my usual explanation of the origin of the word

"sabotage"--the wooden shoe (sabot) into the gears of the machinery, ad

nauseum--I quickly discovered I wasn't sure about the fine line between the

two. My basic assumption was that sabotage came from within an organization

or unit and terrorism from without. Am I oversimplifying that?

We'd appreciate any comments/clarifications.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:27:42 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Terrorism vs. sabotage



terrorism is what is done by people you (or at least the govt) don't

like.



if we get back to the roots of "terrorism"--it would seem that the

object of terrorism is to terrify. it's not done to keep the train

from getting somewhere, but to make a statement, like "we're the

anarchists, so don't mess with us".



whereas sabotage, it seems to me, would have as its aim the stopping

of the train or the downfall of amtrak or some such thing.



lynne, who hasn't heard anything about amtrak derailings



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 15:09:40 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Ornery Kathleen



As a general rule, can we say that _ornery_ usually has three

syllables in the eastern states and two in the west? And that the

first "r" is pronounced in the east?



Likewise, does Kathleen have two syllables in the west and three in

the east?



> I was born in Baltimore, and raised in the Suburbs between Baltimore and

> D.C.. I say ornery with three syllables like Kathleen, not like her

> Mother from Baltimore.

> Elaine Green









Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 14:47:33 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



Two in my part of the West.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:

>

> Likewise, does Kathleen have two syllables in the west and three in

> the east?

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:53:48 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



Hey! I resemble that remark. Tee hee.

I suppose there was _some_ ambiguity in Elaine's statement

about the number of syllables in "ornery," but come on. :-)

Funny you should mention that, though...

(Funny strange, not... nevermind.)

All my life I've noticed that some people have a tendency

to pronounce my name with three syllables.

"KATH' uh LEEN''" or somethin'.

But I haven't noticed a regional trend one way or the other.



Kate



>As a general rule, can we say that _ornery_ usually has three

>syllables in the eastern states and two in the west? And that the

>first "r" is pronounced in the east?

>

>Likewise, does Kathleen have two syllables in the west and three in

>the east?

>

>> I was born in Baltimore, and raised in the Suburbs between Baltimore and

>> D.C.. I say ornery with three syllables like Kathleen, not like her

>> Mother from Baltimore.

>> Elaine Green

>

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:52:37 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU>

Subject: zapping



I'm back from a long trip to France where I was not on-line (probably

nobody noticed).



I have a question about "le zapping" that y'all can help me with.



The term is very general now in France with the specific meaning of

using a remote control to change TV channels. I'm trying to determine

if it is a pseudo-Anglicism forged by the French. While we can all

"zap" a commercial, I know of no term for this practice as "zapping".

The mystery is that the OED (2nd ed) lists it as an Americanism, but

quotes only two British newspapers as authorities and furnishes no

other attestations of it. Nor is it to be found with this sense in

any of the many dictionaries of slang and new words that I have

consulted.



So, does anyone out there know anything about where "zapping" might be

lurking in North America? What terms do you use for this practice, if any?

Channel surfing? Others?



Thanks!



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 16:19:46 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



If I remember correctly, I had an edition with that mistake a while back

and when I checked with my students, all those with NEW books (not

labelled as a different version) had a corrected chart and those who had

gotten retreads still had the mistake in their chart.



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> Speaking of "or" words, does anybody else find it odd that "bore"

> is given in the Fromkin-Rodman chart of key words to represent "aw"?

> My students couldn't figure out why there were different symbols for

> the vowel in "boat" and the vowel in "bore." I told them to ignore

> "bore" and substitute "paw." (We then discussed briefly the horse/hoarse

> distinction, but I do think a more consistently pronounced key word

> should be given in an introductory textbook.)

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:40:01 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: the dictionary of stereotypes



>African Queen (female who looks good), African King

>(a male who looks good)

>On Fri, 6 Oct 1995, Anton Sherwood wrote:

>

>> > From: vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dectlk.ENET.dec.com

>> > Subject: Request for ethnic terms

>> >

>> > There is a "linguistics" issue which readers of this discussion group

>> > could probably help me with. I'm writing a dictionary and some papers

>> > on the lexicalization of ethnic expressions. I began working on this

>> > 14 years ago. I've been collecting some ethnic expressions such as

>> > Mexican Standoff, Dutch Courage, Chinese Firedrill, French Fries,

>> > Swedish Ivy, etc.

>> >

>> > I have a large number of these words and phrases (450pp single-spaced)

>> > but the number of languages is small relative to the number of major

>> > languages (approx. 6500) spoken in the world today.

>> >

>> > If you or friends and colleagues who are native speakers of or

>> > specialists in various languages can think of any, I'd appreciate a

>> > list of these.



French kiss, Cuban coffee, Scotch Ice, Jewish lightning (insurance fire),

Canadian sunset, Russian hands & _______?, Japanese motorcycle boots (zori's),

Syrian bread, French bread, Montezuma's revenge, Turkish coffee, Mongolian

idiot, a Danish, Swedish massage, Irish coffee, Siamese twin (Thailandian

twin just doesn't cut it).



One night in a whimsical mood we decided to run through the alphabet with

euphemisms for animal dung, animal by animal, beginning with ape accident

and ending with zebra zippydeedoo. Its fun for a party.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 21:50:53 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: zapping, zappers & binger-bongers



>I'm back from a long trip to France where I was not on-line (probably

>nobody noticed).

>

>I have a question about "le zapping" that y'all can help me with.

>

>The term is very general now in France with the specific meaning of

>using a remote control to change TV channels. I'm trying to determine

>if it is a pseudo-Anglicism forged by the French. While we can all

>"zap" a commercial, I know of no term for this practice as "zapping".

>The mystery is that the OED (2nd ed) lists it as an Americanism, but

>quotes only two British newspapers as authorities and furnishes no

>other attestations of it. Nor is it to be found with this sense in

>any of the many dictionaries of slang and new words that I have

>consulted.

>

>So, does anyone out there know anything about where "zapping" might be

>lurking in North America? What terms do you use for this practice, if any?

>Channel surfing? Others?

>

>Thanks!

>

>Mike Picone

>University of Alabama

>MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU

>

I would guess an origin in a comic book such as Batman but I don't really

know. However, my ex-wife is the only one I ever heard who called the

zapping device a binger-bonger, which I prefer over channel changer, clicker,

or anything else.  What say you all?



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:00:31 -0400

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: zapping



I am a grad student in Michigan (a native MI) and use zapping. Generally I

think it comes from the lay perception that anything that emits waves is a

zapper of sorts. I. E. the microwave zaps food, I zap the tv with the zapper.

It is not too widespread but familiar.



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:45:46 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: If I was



During the thread on the subjunctive, Stephen Straight wrote "If I would have

been more careful,...I wouldn't have muddied the waters..." I take those

_would's_ to be subjunctive

on the grounds that it is an apparent past tense form used with present tense

meaning,

but that is only my guess. Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this on

historical grounds?

If it is subjunctive, it is a (fairly common) substitution on one subjunctive

construction for another.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:18:24 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: LJP Issue #2 is Now Available for Web-Browsing



INVITATION TO VIEW LJP, ISSUE #2



You are invited to browse Language in the Judicial Process, an electronic

joiurnal of language and law available on the World Wide Web at

http://hamlet.la.utk.edu. Issue #2, which went online this week, contains

new items:



* Abstracts of all papers given at the Second Conference of the International

Association of Forensic Linguists. (This section includes a photograph of

the editor relaxing "down under.")



* A description of and ordering information for the fall 1995 issue of

Washington University Law Quarterly (Vol. 73, No. 3), a special issue

focusing on linguistics and law. Its centerpiece is the transcript of an

interdisciplinary conference held this spring, entitled, "What is Meaning in a

Legal Text? A Dialogue Among Scholars of Law and Linguistics," which

was sponsored by Northwestern University and Washington University

Law School. In addition, it contains 7 essays by conference participants and

18 essays by other scholars (primarily from the law) offering commentary

on the themes of the conference: meaning and interpretation in legal

contexts, and the possibilities for intellectual as well as practical

collaboration between the two disciplines.



* Information about "Language Legislation and Linguistic Rights": An

International Conference to be hosted by The University of Illinois March

21-23, 1996. A select group of speakers from around the world will address

linguistic issues such as language and culture, language and power, bilingualism

  ;

and the linguistic aspects of social issues such as community vs. individual rig

  hts,

cultural survival, and free trade. Organizers are Dennis E. Baron (English),

Eyamba Bokamba (English as an International Language, C. C. Cheng (Language

Learning Laboratory), Braj B. Kachru (Linguistics), and Douglas A. Kibbee

(French).



* Details about online (and other) versions of "The Legal List."



* New citations.



[Issue #1 (June 1995) remains available for browsing.]



Coming in Issue #3:



 * A database of cases dealing with foreign- and sign-language interpreting

and the legal system.



* A companion database of articles and book titles related to foreign- and

sign-language interpreting and the legal system.



* More citations and summaries.



Bethany K. Dumas

Editor, Language in the Judicial Process



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D.., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville     | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower            | 423-974-6965 | FAX 423-974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430            | See Webpage at http://hamlet.

  la.utk.edu



cc:

  * * * * David Hale * * * *     |URL:http://www.utcc.utk.edu

UTK Computing & Admin. Systems | EMAIL: dhale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

   Training & Documentation Services |VOICE: (615) 974-1322

    400 Dunford Hall             |



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 23:28:33 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



For the record, my "If I would X, then I would Y" was meant to exemplify

the LOSS of a distinctive subjunctive form in favor of the conditional,

which is used in some dialects in place of the former subjunctive. It's

sort of a verbal concord in which both clauses in a conditional conjunct

receive conditional marking, with only the "if" and "then" left to tell

you which clause is performing which function.



On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, William H. Smith wrote: > During the thread on the

subjunctive, Stephen Straight wrote "If I would have > been more

careful,...I wouldn't have muddied the waters..." I take those >

_would's_ to be subjunctive > on the grounds that it is an apparent past

tense form used with present tense > meaning, > but that is only my guess.

Can anyone confirm or disconfirm this on > historical grounds? > If it is

subjunctive, it is a (fairly common) substitution on one subjunctive >

construction for another. > Bill Smith > Piedmont College

    Best.         'Bye.          Steve

H Stephen STRAIGHT             Binghamton University (SUNY)

Anthropology & Linguistics   LxC  Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curric    VOX: 607-777-2824; FAX: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 1995 to 11 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 23 messages totalling 620 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Ornery Kathleen (5)

 2. If I was (6)

 3. zapping (3)

 4. Ornery Kathleen/realator

 5. mrs/miz'/gazz (2)

 6. Zapping

 7. New Newsletter of the ADS

 8. Ornery Kathleen/realator -Reply

 9. the dictionary of stereotypes (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 11 Oct 1995 22:06:19 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



>All my life I've noticed that some people have a tendency

>to pronounce my name with three syllables.

>"KATH' uh LEEN''" or somethin'.



Presumably the same folks who add the "uh" in the middle of Kathleen (a 2

syllable word as far as I can tell) are the same folks who say athuhlete

(and drive me crazy).



Ornery is different - losing a syllable, not adding a superfluous one.

BTW, I say it with both the first r and 3 syllables and grew up in NY. Of

course, it's not really a word I use a whole hell of a lot in any case.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:01:50 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: If I was



stephen straight said:



> For the record, my "If I would X, then I would Y" was meant to exemplify

> the LOSS of a distinctive subjunctive form in favor of the conditional,

> which is used in some dialects in place of the former subjunctive. It's

> sort of a verbal concord in which both clauses in a conditional conjunct

> receive conditional marking, with only the "if" and "then" left to tell

> you which clause is performing which function.



i don't think you can say that the subjunctive and the conditional

could replace one another, since they're different sorts of things.

the subjunctive is a mood which is used in the context of a

counterfactual conditional--the conditional isn't replacing it, it's

serving as an environment for it. and still we can see that there is

an effect on the mood of the verb just by being in that environment--

it's not "if i will" it's "if i would." the indicative still isn't

an option here. it may not be what you think of as "the"

subjunctive, but it is a subjunctive use of "would".



viva the subjunctive viva!



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 02:19:42 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



If you look at old, really old, grammar books, you'll see rules saying

that the proper past perfect subjunctive is

 "If I had been more careful, ... I wouldn't have muddied the waters..."



That is, pluperfect subjunctive in the if-clause and conditional in the

main clause.



In contemporary Spanish the conditional form (habria tenido mas cuidado; 2

accent marks needed) has replaced the earlier pluperfect (hubiera / hubiese

tenido...). It seems to me that there is an increase in the use of the

conditional form in both clauses in English (echoing what has already

happened in Spanish, with no obvious causality). If you want to do an

exercise in discovering the extent to which subjunctive forms survive

in English, get a Spanish review grammar and translate the examples into

English. German would work too, of course. A thread on this topic

wormed its way through a few knots on ads-l maybe a couple of years ago, but

I don't think many people had much to say, i.e., much that comes from

knowledge of what the old books say.

                        DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:12:05 +0100

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: zapping



>I am a grad student in Michigan (a native MI) and use zapping. Generally I

>think it comes from the lay perception that anything that emits waves is a

>zapper of sorts. I. E. the microwave zaps food, I zap the tv with the zapper.

>It is not too widespread but familiar.

>

>Asher





ditto for me, also from Michigan. I'd be more likely to call the remote a

"zapper" than to say "zapping" for changing the channels, though.



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 06:39:49 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen/realator



>>All my life I've noticed that some people have a tendency

>>to pronounce my name with three syllables.

>>"KATH' uh LEEN''" or somethin'.

>

>Presumably the same folks who add the "uh" in the middle of Kathleen (a 2

>syllable word as far as I can tell) are the same folks who say athuhlete

>(and drive me crazy).

>

>Ornery is different - losing a syllable, not adding a superfluous one.

>BTW, I say it with both the first r and 3 syllables and grew up in NY. Of

>course, it's not really a word I use a whole hell of a lot in any case.

>

>Rima

>

>

They probably also say Realator instead of Realtor and nucular instead of

nuclear. If they are from the south they say umbrella & insurance with

the accent on the first syllable.



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:04:12 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



>DARE has examples of /mIzrIz/ from 1909 _Dialect Notes_ (east AL and w GA),

>from 1960 in csKY, from 1967-69 in swKY, LA, seAL, wTN, and from 1970 in TN.

>Lucille Bailey (1142 Forest Drive, Kokomo, IN 46901) has also written a

>paper on this. I'm sure she'd send you a copy if you'd like it.

>

>Joan Hall



Thanks,



Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:45:35 EDT

From:  Orin Hargraves <100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: Zapping



>So, does anyone out there know anything about where "zapping" might be

>lurking in North America? What terms do you use for this practice, if any?

>Channel surfing? Others?



Zapping things in a microwave oven (i.e., cooking them) is at least 10 years old

in the Midwest. As for TV use, my parents (downstate IL) refer to the remote

control device as the zapper.





Orin Hargraves



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:00:32 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



At 3:09 PM 10/11/95 -0700, Tom Uharriet wrote:

>As a general rule, can we say that _ornery_ usually has three

>syllables in the eastern states and two in the west? And that the

>first "r" is pronounced in the east?



If Texas counts as the west, we can't say that. At least in East and

Central Texas, "ornery" has has two syllables and both "r"s.



It may lose the first "r" in West Texas; I'm not sure.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:25:49 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: New Newsletter of the ADS



Yes, ADS members - the September issue of our Newsletter is at last going

into the s-mail, first class as usual; look for it later this week or early

next. (And slightly longer outside the US.)



Some issues of NADS (yes, that's the acronym; chuckle if you will) are chock

with wit and wisdom. This one is not; instead, it's filled fore to aft with

facts about impending deadlines and meetings, and about our membership - it

has the annual list of the 500 odd of us, this time with e-mail as well as

s-mail addresses.



There is the detailed program, with abstracts, for our Chicago meeting in

December, including the special session on endangered dialects; likewise

program and abstracts for our special session "Spanish and English in Contact

in the Border States" at LSA in San Diego in January, and the four regional

meetings.



Also there are calls for papers for next summer's Methods conference in

Wales, and the International Linguistic Association in New York City in

April.



And other news.



Now if you're not an ADS member, you won't get a copy - unless you send me

your s-mail address for a sample, and a membership invitation. Joining ADS

gives you also our journal American Speech and our annual monograph PADS.

What an opportunity! And only $30 a year. Or $15 for student membership. Or

$600 for a lifetime.



- Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary   <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>

  English Department

  MacMurray College

  Jacksonville, Illinois 62650



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:52:37 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



>If you look at old, really old, grammar books, you'll see rules saying

>that the proper past perfect subjunctive is

> "If I had been more careful, ... I wouldn't have muddied the waters..."



Really old? I use that form most commonly (of all forms in question).

I'm rather young. :-)

Though I suppose the _grammar books_ that were used

for my instruction could be considered really old.

Hmm.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 09:57:43 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen/realator -Reply



In the Philly area, the local grocery store is the "Ack-a-mee" rather

than the "Acme".



Three syllables are better than one ;)



molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 10:00:02 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: zapping



I use "zap" as a verb meaning "to heat in a microwave oven," and

picked up "zap machine" for microwave oven from a friend.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:23:22 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU>

Subject: Re: the dictionary of stereotypes



Re: Dictionary of stereotypes.



Don't forget Parthian shot, which has become "parting shot" for a lot

of people as a way of rendering it less opaque.



Here are just a few that come quickly to mind for France:



The French like to deride people who don't speak French well by saying:

"Il/Elle parle francais comme une vache espagnole." It's very current.



A roller-coaster over there is "une montagne russe."



To slip away unnoticed is: "filer a l'anglaise."



A baked potato is "une pomme de terre a l'anglaise."



If a French person doesn't understand something, it's not "Greek" to

them like it is here but rather "C'est du chinois."



To eat alone is "manger en suisse" (which does not mean to eat in

Switzerland, but alludes to the practice of the French kings at

Versailles who would eat in their private chambers with the way of

access barred by the Swiss Guard).



"oncle d'Amerique" is a rich uncle or other relative from whom one

receives an inheritance.



And just a couple more from Cajun country: "une patate anglaise" is

an Irish potato, and "congo" is used adjectivally as in the following:

 "serpent congo" = black water moccassin

 "negre congo" = very dark African-American



Mike Picone

University of Alabama

MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:09:15 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



My eight-year-old girl pronounces her friend Ashley's name as ASH-uh-lee.

What's happening with these epenthetic schwas?



On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:



> >All my life I've noticed that some people have a tendency

> >to pronounce my name with three syllables.

> >"KATH' uh LEEN''" or somethin'.

>

> Presumably the same folks who add the "uh" in the middle of Kathleen (a 2

> syllable word as far as I can tell) are the same folks who say athuhlete

> (and drive me crazy).

>

> Ornery is different - losing a syllable, not adding a superfluous one.

> BTW, I say it with both the first r and 3 syllables and grew up in NY. Of

> course, it's not really a word I use a whole hell of a lot in any case.

>

> Rima

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 08:11:24 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> If you look at old, really old, grammar books, you'll see rules saying

> that the proper past perfect subjunctive is

>  "If I had been more careful, ... I wouldn't have muddied the waters..."



Wouldn't the really old ones have "Had I been more careful,..."?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:29:36 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



>My eight-year-old girl pronounces her friend Ashley's name as ASH-uh-lee.

>What's happening with these epenthetic schwas?

>

My two-year-old daughter inserts a schwa to avoid naking /g/ or /k/

contiguous with a following /d/. She gets excited everytime we pass a

[m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gxdanxlz] ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = ash, x = schwa). Her happy meal yesterday had a toy she

calls [ranxld + m[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gxdanxld]. But then she likes to eat macajoonie and

cheeze and begs to use her teethbruss.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:47:24 -0400

From:  Aaron Drews <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: zapping



    I remember about six or eight years ago, in the LA Times an

article about Franglais. Instead of "le zapping" it talked about "le

zappeur" which is the person channel surfing, *not* the remote control.

I just moved from LA to DC, so I may have purged that article from my

belongings, but I'll try to dig it up and give you the citation. It may

have the origin you're looking for.

--Aaron Drews



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 11:43:40 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: the dictionary of stereotypes



Some of these have probably been mentioned, but here goes anyway:

German measles

German cockroach

to Jew down

Indian giver

to gyp

American Know-how

American ingenuity

Irish coffee

Chinese checkers

Chinese firedrill

Spanish fly

French bath

Amazon

bonehead English

Nigger sweat

Dutch act

Dutch blessing

Dutch cheese

Dutch blessing

Dutch cap

Dutch courage

Dutch f...

Dutch leave

Dutch head

Dutchman's hurricane

Dutchman's breeches

Dutch rub

Dutch milk

Dutch route

Dutch ride

Eskimo kiss

Eskimo pie

English (has several meanings as far as I am aware)

French blue

French cap

French deck

French f...

French leave

 "   furlough

"   handshake

"   harp

Jew's harp

French  inhale

"    landing

"   letter

"   liberty

"   Kiss

"   polish

"   postcard

"   safe

"   tickler

German goiter

Yankee know-how

yankee ingenuity

Yankee ax

Dutch bake-oven



For other items, Check Mathews' _Dictionary of Americanisms_. A quick

perusal rendered dozens of items undr both Yankee and Dutch. I'm sure

more would be found under other group names.

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 13:36:42 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEWOUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



On CHALK-lit: I'm a Long Islander (b. 1940) and that's my pronunciation (a

diphthong, actually, beginning [U] and gliding down to AW which is low back r);

for me CHOCK-lit is as unthinkable as Chalk-Full-o'Nuts CAW-fee would be! :-)



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:33:28 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: the dictionary of stereotypes



there are a lot of those ethnic label compounds in hugh rawson's

_wicked words_.



from d.c. hauptfleisch "racist language in society and in

dictionaries: a pragmatic perspective" (_lexikos_ 3:83-139, 1993)

there are lots from south africa:



bantu beer (sorghum beer)

bantu education (not really an education at all)

kaffir beads

kaffir beer (sorghum beer)

kaffir piano

kaffir pot (black iron pot w/ 3 legs)

kaffir sheeting (soft, coarsely woven cotton)

kaffir tree (coral tree)

kaffircorn (sorghum)

hottentot god (praying mantis)

kaffir crane (crowned crane)

kaffir finch (red bishop)

kaffir lily (clivia)

blue hottentot and black hottentot (fish)

kaffir bride (a kind of shrub)

kaffir grapes (a kind of berry that looks like small grapes)



do a dutch act (desert, suicide)

dutch bargain (concluded while drinking)

dutch comfort (cold comfort)

dutch concert (deafening noise)

dutch courage (gained from drink)

dutch curse (a weed)

...lots more dutch, much of it well-known, but must be noted that

"dutch" here is an insulting term for "afrikaner" (esp. "dutchman")



hauptfleisch has lots more in afrikaans, but i can't translate

them. some others (not from hauptfleisch):



kaffir taxi (brandy & coke)

zulu cattle (a breed)

sotho hat

sotho blanket (worn as a cloak, usually)

sotho pony

african time (later than scheduled)

boere tan (farmer's tan)

boerewors (a sausage)

dutch medicine (patent medicines)

indian shop (usu. dealing in fabrics, upholstery)



and lots more, i'm sure. there are lots of place names in s.a. with

"kaffir" or "hottentot" or "bushman" in them that are in the process

of being changed. very little of the above is in offensive, so use

with caution.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 16:36:06 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



> If Texas counts as the west, we can't say that. At least in East and



Don't forget that the SouthEASTern Conference on Linguistics is meeting

in College Station, Texas, next spring.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 20:49:51 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: If I was



Donald Lance responded to my query about "If I would have..." with a

reference to Spanish Grammar. I shouldn't be (note the subjunctive)

surprised, since I am familiar

with the usage primarily from my first wife, who is Cuban. Still, Isn't

'would' the subjunctive of 'will'.?

Are there terms for the two subjunctives in English? That is, the

contrafactual "If I

were..." and the wish opf necessity "We insist that he go..."? When I

studied German, we called those Subjunctive II and Subjunctive I,

respectively. Are similar terms available for English? I haven't run across

them (although I haven't looked hare).

Finally, as evidence for the absolute death of the subjunctive, the Atlanta

Braves sportscasters use the present indicative for a past subjunctive sense,

as in the following

(hypothetical) example:

   David Justice has just made a spectacular catch preventing the winning

run from

   coming in. The announcer says, "If Justice doesn't catch that it's a

double

   and the go-ahead run is in."

Is this general sportscasterese, along with the use of the simple present for

what is going on right now or just Bravesese?

Bill Smith

Piedmont College



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 Oct 1995 23:34:01 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



Bill Smith wonders:





>David Justice has just made a spectacular catch preventing the

>winning run from

>coming in. The announcer says, "If Justice doesn't catch that it's

>a double and the go-ahead run is in."

>Is this general sportscasterese, along with the use of the simple

>present for

>what is going on right now or just Bravesese?



It is indeed general sportscasterese, not limited to the Braves or to

baseball. It's used all the time in play-by-play for e.g. football (if he

doesn't deflect that pass, it goes for an easy touchdown) or basketball ("If

the Glide doesn't give that hard foul, Kidd goes in for an uncontested

lay-up"). Historical present counterfactual? (Note that this form can be

used in commenting on an instant replay, but not as felicitously by a

sportscaster showing the videotape later that night in a highlight show.)



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Oct 1995 to 12 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 12 messages totalling 264 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. as it were

 2. mrs/miz'/gazz

 3. ornery (2)

 4. Cook stove (4)

 5. Ah'm is/rapeseed/canola oil -Reply

 6. Rape! Canola.

 7. Ornery Kathleen

 8. If I was



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:16:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: as it were



I would not be able to say "If I WOULD HAVE done that, I would be better

off today."



I would have to say "If I HAD done that, I would be better off today."



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com

International Service for National

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 08:08:06 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: mrs/miz'/gazz



/mIzrIz/ is alive and well. One of my white upper-level English grammar

students in her mid- to late twenties from a small town south of Macon

tells me that this pronunciation is the only pronunciation that she and her

family knows. She thought everybody else was saying /mIzrIz/.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 09:17:16 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



I pronounce "ornery" with three syllables AND I pronounce both r's. I

don't understand how it is that I've seen it spelled "awnry" which I

assume is another pronunciation of the same word. Has anyone else seen

this spelling? Or have other info.?



Merri Lisa

Ohio University (originally from Georgia)



On Tue, 10 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Larry,

> You wrote,

> > Here in NE Wisconsin [ornery is]

> > pronounced with three syllables, more or less like it's spelled.

> > DWL

>

> Do they pronounce both r's ?

>

> Does anyone know why/when the first r is not pronounced?

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 11:58:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine <0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM>

Subject: Cook stove



Can anyone give me insight on the term "cook stove"? My wife works as

an interviewer for the U.S. Census Bureau and this term appears in

questionnaires. She asks people if they "have a stove"; she thinks

"cook" is redundant.



Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 12:12:19 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Gregory <WPODOM1.AGCOM.EGREGORY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WPO-SMTP-GATE.TAMU.EDU>

Subject: Ah'm is/rapeseed/canola oil -Reply



"Canola" is a patented term derived by the Canadian government to refer

to improved varieties of rapeseed containing less than 2 percent erucic

acid (high erucic acid levels are unacceptable for cooking oil, but can be

used for some industrial purposes). These improved varieties were

named "canola" after the CANadian Oil Low Acid breeding program. At

least in production agriculture, both "rapeseed" and "canola" are still in

use.



Elizabeth Gregory

Assistant Professor and Extension Communications Specialist

Texas Agricultural Extension Service

Texas A&M University



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:50:18 -0400

From:  "M. Katherine MacKinnon" <eslmkmx[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GSUSGI2.GSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cook stove



My intuition says that the term must come from a time when stoves which

were NOT used for cooking, perhaps wood-burning stoves for heating

purposes?, were much more common than they are now....but I have nothing

concrete with which to back it.

Katherine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 15:05:33 -0400

From:  Fraser Sutherland <frasers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]THE-WIRE.COM>

Subject: Rape! Canola.



Short of summoning the shades of the Prairie plant scientists who perfected

canola, could someone please settle for me the word's etymology? Oxford

says [< CAN(ADA) + -OLA < L oleum oil], Merriam-Webster's says [< CAN(ADA) +

O(IL) + L(OW) A(CID), and my source supposes [< CAN(ADA) + (C)OL(Z)A] (colza

being the summer rape plant). RHD 2 says canola is "of unexplained orig."

Overexplained, I'd say.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 13:47:19 -0400

From:  Katherine Devore <kdevore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BIH.HARVARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ornery Kathleen



Re the epenthetic schwas, I think it all started with my personal pet

peeve, "didunt" and "couldunt" and "wouldunt". It has spread!!!!



On Thu, 12 Oct 1995, Dan Alford wrote:



> My eight-year-old girl pronounces her friend Ashley's name as ASH-uh-lee.

> What's happening with these epenthetic schwas?

>

> On Wed, 11 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:

>

> > >All my life I've noticed that some people have a tendency

> > >to pronounce my name with three syllables.

> > >"KATH' uh LEEN''" or somethin'.

> >

> > Presumably the same folks who add the "uh" in the middle of Kathleen (a 2

> > syllable word as far as I can tell) are the same folks who say athuhlete

> > (and drive me crazy).

> >

> > Ornery is different - losing a syllable, not adding a superfluous one.

> > BTW, I say it with both the first r and 3 syllables and grew up in NY. Of

> > course, it's not really a word I use a whole hell of a lot in any case.

> >

> > Rima

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 14:45:11 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: ornery



Merri Lisa,



My students often spell it that way because it is pronounced like

that here (and in other western states I've lived in). They

have a hard time finding the correct spelling in dictionaries.



Tom



> I pronounce "ornery" with three syllables AND I pronounce both r's. I

> don't understand how it is that I've seen it spelled "awnry" which I

> assume is another pronunciation of the same word. Has anyone else seen

> this spelling? Or have other info.?

>

> Merri Lisa







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:08:50 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: If I was



When I referred to "old grammar books" in my recent posting on the subjunctive,

I was maintaining a slight amount of apico-buccal contact, because lots

of recent books like those used in introductory linguistics classes tend

to dismiss the subjunctive as something that is almost dead anyway. But

we can see from ads-l postings that those reports are, as Twain said once

about some other reported demise, somewhat exaggerated.



For a recent book to look at, try the big Quirk et al., _A_Comprehensive_

Grammar_of_the_English_Language_ (Longman, 1985). This book has lots of

the terminology that Bill Smith was looking for in his posting -- terms like

mandative and optative. Quirk et al. describe both British and American

usage, including the "should + v" for American present subjunctive. Bill

wondered about calling both instances of 'would + v' subjunctive in

"If I would have x'd, you wouldn't have y'd." If you say that the first

'would' is subjunctive, you're mixing reference to meaning and reference to

the traditional name for the form of a verb. But since on occasion one finds

new grammar books dissing old ones, should fogies continue stickling over

mere terminology? An unstated part of my suggestion that one compare the

examples in Spanish and German review grammar books with their English

translations was that in making these comparsons one will find that what is

treated as "subjunctive" morphologically in each language will vary to a

surprising extent.



Another good source for terminology to use in discussing English subjunctive

constructions is Marianne Celce-Murcia & Diane Larsen-Freeman, _The_Grammar_

Book:_An_ESL/EFL_Teacher's_Course_ (Newbury House, now Heinle, 1983) --

Ch 25, "Conditional Sentences" pp. 340-359, and the section titled "Verbs, adje

ctives, and nouns taking subjunctive complements" on pp. 482-84.



If your university library does not have the Quirk book in its reference

section, you should make sure they get it. It'll be hard to get a

library to buy The Grammar Book as the reference work that it is, because

it has "Teacher's" in the title, but a grammarian looking for examples

and terminology will find it to be a valuable reference work. The Quirk book

has just under 2000 pages and costs somewhere around a hundred bucks. Well

worth it.                         DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 16:50:33 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Cook stove



I understand that the City of Columbia, Missouri, has an ordinance that

says a house/townhouse/condo must have a "cook stove" when it is sold.

The word "stove" would hardly accomplish the purpose of that ordinance.

Some inspectors, I'm sure, might be convinced that a one-burner electric

hotplate fills that bill, public "servants" being what they often are.



Considering such matters as this city ordinance, I would want the census

report to specify "cook stove" and not let "stove" serve as an equivalent.

It's not just a matter of language apparently.

                       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 Oct 1995 19:51:46 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: Cook stove



Cook stove probably refers to the wood burning stove used in the kitchen

on which cooking is done as opposed to the woodburning stove in the living

area of the house used for home heating which might be called the heater.

Yes, cook stove sounds redundant if the only stove a person has is used

for cooking. But it sets it apart from the one in the living room used for

heating.  We have an 'air tight' wood burner which we heat with at times

and an electric stove or range for cooking. This is an old timey term.

Right up there with ice box.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Oct 1995 to 13 Oct 1995

************************************************





There is one message totalling 18 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Cook stove



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Oct 1995 18:17:28 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes <HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Cook stove



Leonard Schiefer wrote:



>Can anyone give me insight on the term "cook stove"? My wife works as

>an interviewer for the U.S. Census Bureau and this term appears in

>questionnaires. She asks people if they "have a stove"; she thinks

>"cook" is redundant.



Cook in cook stove is not meant to be redundant, but rather explanatory. A

cook stove is different than a regular stove. Most people think of a regular

stove as having burners and an oven. A cook stove is usually a few tabletop

burners and no oven.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Oct 1995 to 14 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 3 messages totalling 70 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Cook stove (2)

 2. cook stove, a/c



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 Oct 1995 22:58:26 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Cook stove



>Cook in cook stove is not meant to be redundant, but rather explanatory. A

>cook stove is different than a regular stove. Most people think of a regular

>stove as having burners and an oven. A cook stove is usually a few tabletop

>burners and no oven.



I've only heard that referred to as a cook top.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 Oct 1995 04:32:01 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: cook stove, a/c



Heilan Yvette Grimes writes:



>Cook in cook stove is not meant to be redundant, but rather explanatory. A

>cook stove is different than a regular stove. Most people think of a

>regular stove as having burners and an oven. A cook stove is usually a few

>tabletop burners and no oven.



This makes the most sense to me: I had trouble with this word when I was

teaching English conversation in Japan; ultimately, it seems to me that

with reference to the kitchen appliance, there are three words:



stove (used commonly for cook stove) -- this is the burner section plus oven

range -- this is the burner section (on top)

oven -- used for baking, broiling, etc.



I think all three words are used interchangably anywhere in the Union (at

the least) to refer to the whole appliance itself, but the degree to which

different areas of the country use the different terms may differ quite a

lot.



The other issue with stove is that the word stove has in the past referred

to "heaters." In fact, the word "sutoubu," borrowed into Japanese from

English means heater.



I personally am having trouble with the word "air conditioner" (aka a/c).

The severely abbreviated borrowed word in Japanese "aiaa kon" means a

machine that heats or cools a room. The word itself seems to belie that

fact; yet, in Seattle, where such devices are few and far between, the word

"a/c" seems to mean a machine that cools down a room. Is that the common

meaning?



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 Oct 1995 11:04:37 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: Cook stove



To me, cook stove is a term describing the wood burning stove in the

kitchen which has a relatively small fire box for wood because this fire box

is beside the oven. It has round burners that can be lifted with a removable

handle allowing the person running the stove to put more wood into the fire

box.

    A cook stove is different from other wood burners used to heat the

house such as a Franklin stove or a potbelly stove, or an Ashley brand, etc.





------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Oct 1995 to 15 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 185 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. cook stove, a/c

 2. Subjunctive

 3. : sci.lang.compar.africa

 4. might could



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Oct 1995 08:42:59 -0400

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: cook stove, a/c



Room/window air conditioners in the southeast US are in fact heaters as well as

coolers. Even Florida gets cold enough sometimes to need a little artificial

heat. Wall thermostats also control both heating and cooling. From an

extra-cultural perspective, conditioning the air can mean heating it as well as

cooling it, so the Japanese interpretation is "logical," but does not match

common American usage.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Oct 1995 10:57:32 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Subjunctive



I heartily second Don Lance's suggestions about good sources for finding

out more about subjunctives. I would add that the _(Merriam) Webster's

Dictionary of English Usage_ sheds much good light with many examples as

well. And it is very modestly priced.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Oct 1995 13:40:03 -0400

From:  Robert Nicolao <nicolai[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNICE.FR>

Subject: : sci.lang.compar.africa



        REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

     moderated group sci.lang.compar.africa



This a formal Request For Discussion concerning the creation of a new

moderated newsgroup called sci.lang.compar.africa. This is not a Call For

Votes (CFV). Please do not vote at this time.



RATIONALE:

Research on African Languages; all with the exception of Bantu, is at

present non-existent in discussions carried out within Newsgroups or on

mailing lists. This is also true of comparative research on African

Languages.



It is for this reason that a group of comparative linguistics specialists

dealing in African languages of the Sahel region

(http://lolita.unice.fr/~rn/GDRE_orig.html) proposes to create a newsgroup

entitled:



            sci.lang.compar.africa.



The group formed as a network around a research project concerned with

lexical distribution in the Sahel-Sahara zone, as well as with the study of

linguistic connections among languages in the region.

It is a French CNRS research organism



END RATIONALE



CHARTER: sci.lang.compar.africa



    As a moderated group, sci.lang.compar.africa would be open to

topics where comparative linguistics in african languages are the subject

of discussion, this would include :



        -languages and language families present in the

Sahel-Sahara zone: Mande, Chadic, Berber, Nilo-Saharan...

        - Analysis of results obtained in the research on genetic

relationships.

        - Problems related to the description of changes in the

context of languages of oral tradition.

        - Understanding linguistic changes and all the relevant

factors concerning language transformation.



    Research workers who do not specialize in the above-mentioned

languages, but who nevertheless are interested in general issues of

theoretical or methodological value for the work carried out or research

tools involved, are welcome to contribute.



Issues of the following type will thus be discussed:

    - Empirical issues (Particular facts pertaining to a language or a

group).

    - Methodological issues (Procedures and methods of description).

    - Theoretical issues (Principles of language change).

    - Epistemological or cognitive issues (The validity of established

facts and how these are obtained).



    Contributions can be posted either in english or in french.



END CHARTER



MODERATION:



sci.lang.compar.africa will be a moderated group. The group has designated

Robert Nicolai, initiator and director of the project, as Moderator.



Moderator: Robert Nicolai <nicolai[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unice.fr>



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------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Oct 1995 20:10:57 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: might could



I have heard the two words  might could  used in a sentence instead

of something like:  might be able to.  Example: You might could call

her on the phone.  Instead of: You might be able to call her on the

phone.  Wonder where this got started?



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Oct 1995 to 16 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 261 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. might could (4)

 2. Double/Multiple Modals (5)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 Oct 1995 23:12:10 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: might could



At 8:10 PM 10/16/95 -0500, mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sau460.saumag.edu wrote:

>I have heard the two words  might could  used in a sentence instead

>of something like:  might be able to.  Example: You might could call

>her on the phone.  Instead of: You might be able to call her on the

>phone.  Wonder where this got started?



I don't know. You might could look it up.



Seriously, it's quite a common locution here in Texas at least. Though not

a native I've picked it up myself for informal conversation--it's pleasant

to say and less cumbersome than "might be able to."



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 01:28:33 -0400

From:  Aaron Drews <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: might could



On Mon, 16 Oct 1995 mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU wrote:



> I have heard the two words  might could  used in a sentence instead

> of something like:  might be able to.  Example: You might could call

> her on the phone.  Instead of: You might be able to call her on the

> phone.  Wonder where this got started?

>

    Well, I know Scots and non-standard Scottish dialects of English

use double modals. And there were one or two Lowlanders that settled in

the southern States. My guess is that it got started back when could was

a full lexical verb.... 17th century, maybe, I don't know. My HEL is a

wee bit rusty.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 04:20:50 -0400

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: might could



On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Aaron Drews wrote:



>     Well, I know Scots and non-standard Scottish dialects of English

> use double modals. And there were one or two Lowlanders that settled in

> the southern States. My guess is that it got started back when could was

> a full lexical verb.... 17th century, maybe, I don't know. My HEL is a

> wee bit rusty.



Aaron,



Thanks for the info, I always wondered what constructions like "might

could" were called. I reckon I might should'a looked it up.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:31:31 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Double/Multiple Modals



The constructions like "might could" are called double modals or multiple

modals. There are several good article or parts of articles, all of which are

cited in my not quite published article. There can also be three of them

if one allows in quasi-modals. Ex: might should oughta.



The best comment I have ever heard about them cam from Bill Labov in

an Institute talk one year. He discussed the form (and every grammar book I

have ever examined says categorially, "modals cannnot be combined in

English"), then exaplained their distribution in SOuthern English and

concluded, "Standard English may be considerd a subset of Southern

English. Southern English allows a wider range of variations then

Standard English."



I am trying to get bothe my double modal paper and my a-prefixing paper

finished and to journals RIGHT NOW.



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 09:19:53 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Double/Multiple Modals



Sounds like a must read. Let me just add to Bethany's comment--



----------------------------Original message----------------------------

The constructions like "might could" are called double modals or multiple

modals. There are several good article or parts of articles, all of which are

cited in my not quite published article. There can also be three of them

if one allows in quasi-modals. Ex: might should oughta.



The best comment I have ever heard about them cam from Bill Labov in

an Institute talk one year. He discussed the form (and every grammar book I

have ever examined says categorially, "modals cannnot be combined in

English"), then exaplained their distribution in SOuthern English and

concluded, "Standard English may be considerd a subset of Southern

English. Southern English allows a wider range of variations then

Standard English."



I am trying to get bothe my double modal paper and my a-prefixing paper

finished and to journals RIGHT NOW.

==========[end Bethany's message]==================

--that at least some speakers in eastern Texas and southwestern Arkansas

accept garden-variety three-modal sequences, provided that the first modal is

(epistemic) 'might' and the third is (root) 'could':

  He might should could finish  'Perhaps he should be able to finish'

A student of mine from Arkansas claimed 'might' could only ever occur as the

first modal in a sequence of 2 or 3, and 'could' or 'can' as the last. Among

permissible sequences were

  He'll can come.

but the most frequently occurring was evidently 'might could'. The epistemic-

before-root ordering constraint appeared to be general at least within his

idiolect.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:32:53 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: might could



>phone.  Wonder where this got started?



See Margaret Mishoe and Michael Montgomery's "The Pragmatics of Multiple

Modal Variation in North and South Carolina" in the Spring 1994 -American

Speech-.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 08:52:17 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double/Multiple Modals



A great discussion! Kudos to all. I remember talking to James Sledd in

the summer of 1971, where he taught summers at Montana State University,

Bozeman. I was fresh out of Chomskyan UCLA training, and couldn't figure

out this old coot, a dyed-in-the-wool structuralist who would have

nothing to do with this new-fangled transformational stuff. And guess

what?! He pointed to the existence of double modals as an Achilles heel

for TG -- which I guess today would extend to GB and others as well.

Little did I know then that I was a year away from flushing it all down

the toilet in the face of an American Indian language, Cheyenne, in which

a word can be a sentence -- LONG on morphology and short on syntax.

Whatever happened to morphosyntax anyway?





On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> The constructions like "might could" are called double modals or multiple

> modals. There are several good article or parts of articles, all of which are

> cited in my not quite published article. There can also be three of them

> if one allows in quasi-modals. Ex: might should oughta.

>

> The best comment I have ever heard about them cam from Bill Labov in

> an Institute talk one year. He discussed the form (and every grammar book I

> have ever examined says categorially, "modals cannnot be combined in

> English"), then exaplained their distribution in SOuthern English and

> concluded, "Standard English may be considerd a subset of Southern

> English. Southern English allows a wider range of variations then

> Standard English."

>

> I am trying to get bothe my double modal paper and my a-prefixing paper

> finished and to journals RIGHT NOW.

>

> Bethany

> dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:22:42 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double/Multiple Modals



>A great discussion! Kudos to all. I remember talking to James Sledd in

>the summer of 1971, where he taught summers at Montana State University,

>Bozeman. I was fresh out of Chomskyan UCLA training, and couldn't figure

>out this old coot, a dyed-in-the-wool structuralist who would have

>nothing to do with this new-fangled transformational stuff. And guess

>what?! He pointed to the existence of double modals as an Achilles heel

>for TG -- which I guess today would extend to GB and others as well.

>Little did I know then that I was a year away from flushing it all down

>the toilet in the face of an American Indian language, Cheyenne, in which

>a word can be a sentence -- LONG on morphology and short on syntax.

>Whatever happened to morphosyntax anyway?

>



I had a Chaucer class with him in 1972 in which he noted the idyllic beauty

of a forest scene in the Canterbury Tales, a forest inhabited by agents of

the devil but uninvaded by modern technology. In that lecture he expressed

dismay that the stream in which he flyfished every summer in Montana was

ruined by the daily passing of commercial airlines overhead. He had a

similar (but private) lecture on the barking of hounds in Sir Gawain and

the Green Knight. He was fascinated with a school of English critics in

the 1920s and 1930s who claimed that no great poet ever rode in an

automobile.



What a great teacher! I learned my Middle English, you better believe me.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 Oct 1995 13:02:26 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double/Multiple Modals



Dan Alford writes,



>A great discussion! Kudos to all. I remember talking to James Sledd in

>the summer of 1971, where he taught summers at Montana State University,

>Bozeman. I was fresh out of Chomskyan UCLA training, and couldn't figure

>out this old coot, a dyed-in-the-wool structuralist who would have

>nothing to do with this new-fangled transformational stuff. And guess

>what?! He pointed to the existence of double modals as an Achilles heel

>for TG -- which I guess today would extend to GB and others as well.



Gee--I wonder if Moonhawk and I were attending the same UCLA back then. I

remember a far less monolithic department, and I also remember double modals

constituting an interesting empirical challenge for any position claiming that

every dialect of English contains modal auxiliaries whose distribution is

constrained in accordance with the analysis of Chomsky (1957). (WAS there any

such position?)   I remember bringing up multiple modal dialects as an

indirect argument for Haj Ross's analysis in his "Auxiliaries as Main Verbs"

paper (1967), an analysis just as "TG"ish as the Syntactic Structures approach,

and I remember others pointing out that one way to distinguish the standard

dialect from the multiple modal dialect is precisely in terms of whether

modals constitute a distinct category (a la Chomsky) or just a specialized

"defective" instance of verbs. I don't "do" GB now anymore than I "did"

standard-brand TG back then, but I don't see why a set of data from a dialect

of English that can't be handled by a particular analysis of another dialect

of English demonstrates a flaw in that analysis (although it may well have

one), much less an Achilles heel in the theory in which that analysis is

couched.   And now I will step down from the pulpit, after noting that formal

grammarians are very much aware of the variation in the distribution of

auxiliary verbs in general--indeed, the structure of auxiliaries has been a

hot topic for 20 years--and, as Edwin Battistella's recent work show, of mul-

tiple modal dialects in particular.



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Oct 1995 to 17 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 215 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Double/Multiple Modals

 2. Possessive 's (fwd) (2)

 3. Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!! (2)

 4. Apology about virus (3)

 5. LAGS query



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 16:20:00 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Double/Multiple Modals



On Tue, 17 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> Gee--I wonder if Moonhawk and I were attending the same UCLA back then. I



Actually, that's a WONDERFUL question. Do we ever really attend the same

school together at the same time? And how many people speak the same

language even when they speak the same language? Great comment as usual,

Larry!



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:35:08 -0400

From:  Frank Southworth <fsouth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCAT.SAS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: Possessive 's (fwd)



>

> I am interested in getting feedback on current usage of the possessive

> 's. When I was young (I am now in my mid-60's) I was taught, and have

> always observed, the rule that in writing, the final [s] was always

> dropped from the sequence [s's] IF AND ONLY IF the first [s] was a mark

> of the plural. Thus I write [the boy's mother, the boys' mothers, Mr.

> Jones's car, the Joneses' children, keeping up with the Joneses, Harris's

> theory, the Harrises, the Harrises' living room, Dickens's Christmas

> Carol, Jesus's resurrection] etc. Sets of words like

> [Joneses-Jones's-Joneses'] and [Harris's-Harrises-Harrises'] are

> pronounced identically, viz. /jonzIz/, /haerIsIz/. I have met people

> somewhat younger than me who delete the final [s] in [s's] even when the

> first [s] is NOT a plural [s], in some or all cases. In fact I understand

> that there are teachers of English who consider spelling like [Dickens's]

> to be incorrect.

>    Now it seems that people of a younger generation also delete the

> /Iz/ in spoken forms in cases like "keeping up with the Jones" /jonz/. I

> would be glad to have more information about this. (Possibly age,

geographical origin, and other factors are relevant variables...)



> Frank Southworth (fsouth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccat.sas.upenn.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:21:04 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!!



>Date:     Wed, 18 Oct 1995 05:47:54 -0700

>From: Frederick Harriman <fredh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORO.NET>

>Sender:    HONYAKU List <honyaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eva.dc.LSOFT.COM>

>To:  Multiple recipients of list HONYAKU <HONYAKU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eva.dc.LSOFT.COM>

>Subject:    VIRUS ALERT!!!

>

>I received this from an aqcuaintance that works at NETSCAPE. Watch out!

>

>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

>

>Date: Fri, 13 Oct 1995 23:45:19 -0800 Subject: Beware of Virus

>Subject: VIRUSES -- IMPORTANT PLEASE READ IMMEDIATELY Date: Mon, 09 Oct 95

>22:17:03 -0600

>

>From: Robert Kaplan

>There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet. If you

>receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times", DO NOT read

>the message, DELETE it immediately. Please read the messages below.

>Some miscreant is sending e-mail under the title "good times" nation-wide.

>If you get anything like this, DON'T DOWN LOAD THE FILE! It has a virus

>that rewrites your hard drive, obliterating anything on it. Please

>becareful and forward this mail to anyone you care about--I have.

>

>WARNING!!!!!!!!!: INTERNET VIRUS

>The FCC released a warning last Wednesday concerning a matter of major

>importance to any regular user of the InterNet. Apparently, a new computer

>virus has been engineered by a user of America Online that is unparalleled

>in its destructive capability. Other, more well-known viruses such as

>Stoned, Airwolf, and Michaelangelo pale in comparison to the prospects of

>this newest creation by a warped mentality. What makes this virus so

>terrifying, said the FCC, is the fact that no program needs to be

>eeexchangedfor a new computer to be infected. It can be spread through the

>existing e-mail systems of the InterNet. Once a computer is infected, one

>of ssseveralthings can happen. If the computer contains a hard drive, that

>will most likely be destroyed. If the program is not stopped, the

>computer's processor will be placed in an nth-complexity infinite binary

>loop - which can severely damage the processor if left running that way too

>long. Unfortunately, most novice computer users will not realize what is

>happening until it is far too late. Luckily, there is one sure means of

>detecting what is now known as the "Good Times" virus. It always travels

>tttonew computers the same way in a text e-mail message with the subject

>line reading simply "Good Times". Avoiding infection is easy once the file

>has been received - not reading it. The act of loading the file into the

>mail server's ASCII buffer causes the "Good Times" mainline program to

>initialize and execute. The program is highly intelligent - it will send

>copies of itself to everyone whose e-mail address is contained in a

>received-mail file or a sent- mail file, if it can find one. It will then

>proceed to trash the computer it is running on. The bottom line here is -

>if you receive a file with the subject line "Good Times", delete it

>immediately! Do not read it! Rest assured that whoever's name was on

>the"From:" line was surely struck by the virus. Warn your friends and local

>system users of this newest threat to the InterNet! It could save them a

>lot of time and money.

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>Pete Johnson  e-mail: petej[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu

>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

>=============================================================

>Daniel F. Twum email: kudjo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netscape.com

>=============================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:23:44 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Apology about virus



The Good Times virus is evidently a hoax. Sorry if I worried anyone (of

course I was worried, too).



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:45:13 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Apology about virus



> The Good Times virus is evidently a hoax. Sorry if I worried anyone (of



The Good Times Virus alert is part of net tradition -- along with the

Neiman-Marcus cookies, little Craig Shergold collecting cards, and the

FCC modem tax. It's kind of fun to watch these hoaxes popping up year

after year after year.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:46:32 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAGS query



Help please, I don't have the JENGL volumes at hand.



In LAGS volume V, "on" is mapped for

vowel shape. LAGS transcription is :



on <aw/{aw}> [unrounded]



I thought this meant "open o" since <aw> is the vowel in "bought"--but

why does it say "unrounded" in brackets? Is this open o or no? or a low

back unrounded vowel,m which doesn't seem likely? This is on P 314, vol 5.



Thanks



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:51:33 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Apology about virus



Natalie points out concerning

>>The Good Times virus is evidently a hoax. Sorry if I worried anyone

that

>The Good Times Virus alert is part of net tradition -- along with the

>Neiman-Marcus cookies, little Craig Shergold collecting cards, and the

>FCC modem tax. It's kind of fun to watch these hoaxes popping up year

>after year after year.



The only problem is that of the boy who cried wolf. It's one thing to read

that anecdote about the $250 (or $500, or whatever) Neiman Marcus chocolate

chip cookie recipe for the umpteenth time (complete with free "valuable"

recipe, which I keep meaning and then forgetting to try); at least there's no

danger of accidentally disregarding a REAL anecdote about being charged $250

for the recipe, especially now that everyone in the civilized cyberworld KNOWS

enough not to ask for the recipe for the scrumptious cookies they were just

served at N-M (if indeed they even HAVE cookies there). But what if there's a

REAL virus someday? We're all so used to the hoaxes that no doubt we'll just

tune out the warnings. Oh well, time to stop babbling.

     Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 20:24:11 -0500

From:  "Sean M. Burke" <sburke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NWU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!!



Sic scripsit Benjamin Barrett:

> >From: Robert Kaplan

> >There is a computer virus that is being sent across the Internet. If you

> >receive an e-mail message with the subject line "Good Times", DO NOT

> >read

> >the message, DELETE it immediately. Please read the messages below.



This is /such/ /old/ bullshit. Does this lame rumor have to come up

every 4 months now until the end of time?



--

 Sean M. Burke  <sean[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qrd.org>  /  http://www.ling.nwu.edu/~sburke/

Web manager for the Queer Resources Directory, http://www.qrd.org/qrd/



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 Oct 1995 19:15:22 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Possessive 's (fwd)



When in Ireland once, while at a pub, I spotted an old poster for Guinness,

Ireland's pride and joy in beer, containing "...Guinness's...". I forget

whether it was a possesive form or a contraction, I just enjoyed seeing all the

esses together.



-- Jim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Oct 1995 to 18 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 99 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Possessive 's (fwd) (2)

 2. Query about Kanadan

 3. y'all, singular usage?

 4. Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!! (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 07:55:12 -0500

From:  Alan R Slotkin <ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Possessive 's (fwd)



There is an excellent discussion of "current" usage of the 's possessive in

Quirk, et. al.'s A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language. It's too

long to summarize here, but it covers every possible combination of

sound/function.



Alan



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 08:39:03 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Possessive 's (fwd)



Ed Battistella has a very nice article on the subject: "s's" in _The

SECOL Review_, Fall 1993.



Cindy Bernstein

Auburn U



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 11:34:49 CDT

From:  Barbara Need <barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Query about Kanadan



Can anyone tell me about Kanadan? A brochure and some "rules" appeared

on the table in the department's lounge the other day. It appears to

be not merely spelling reform, but also grammatical reform: the rules

specify that all verbs should (and one day "will") end in -ize. Some

of the material seemed to be of questionsable taste.

Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 19:37:38 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: y'all, singular usage?



Forwarding this query on the singular usage of y'all I got from the Linguist

List.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 10:15:19 EDT

>From: jeepjm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muohio.edu (John M. Jeep)

>Subject: Y'all



>Believe it or not, the second person pronoun 'y'all' is a hot topic on

>MEDTEXTL, evolving from a discussion of second person pronouns and their

>usage in Medieval English, French, modern German, etc. The question is

>whether 'y'all' is used for the singular. We have heard strong voices on

>both sides of the question, ranging from witness accounts of having heard

>it recently to experienced speakers never having heard it. Is there a

>reliable account of the phenomenom or is anyone working on it these days?

>

>Thanks for any responses. I'll be glad to summarize later.

>

>John M. Jeep

>jeepjm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muohio.edu

>Department of German, Russian, and East Asian Languages

>Miami University

>Oxford, Ohio 45056

>(Tel.) 513 529-1821 - (Fax.) 513 529-1807

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>LINGUIST List: Vol-6-1456.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 19:39:04 -0400

From:  Megan Crowhurst <mjcrowhu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!!



About the virus alert--this came around a few months ago. I checked with

our people, and they say it's just a nasty scare. So, rather than

propagating this thing, probably invented by some jerk who wants to see

just how much havoc s/he can cause on the internet, why not check with your

computer centers before sending it around yet again?



--Megan C.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 Oct 1995 19:54:37 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Fwd: VIRUS ALERT!!!



 Don't pay any attention; it's a hoax. Somebody pulled the same trick on

another mailing list I was on a while back. The exact same text, almost to

the word.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Oct 1995 to 19 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. y'all, singular usage? (2)

 2. y'all are crazy (9)

 3. You'uns/ye'uns/y'uns (2)

 4. y'all/y'uns (2)

 5. y'all, youse, gyno-Americans



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 06:27:16 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, singular usage?



> >Believe it or not, the second person pronoun 'y'all' is a hot

topic on

> >MEDTEXTL, evolving from a discussion of second person pronouns and their

> >usage in Medieval English, French, modern German, etc. The question is

> >whether 'y'all' is used for the singular. We have heard strong voices on

> >both sides of the question, ranging from witness accounts of having heard

> >it recently to experienced speakers never having heard it. Is there a

> >reliable account of the phenomenom or is anyone working on it these days?



How strange. When I've heard _y'all_ addressed to individuals, I

have always assumed an implied plural as in

  Door-to-door sales rep. to individual resident at the door:

    "Can y'all use a savings on . . ."

    (meaning, "Can you and yours use a savings on . . .")



As for using it without an implied plural, the proscriptionist in me

calls it an error in the same way that I sometimes hear _ye_

missused or missunderstood.





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 07:42:45 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, singular usage?



This form of singular is common in nTX (say, Denton area) and my

Texas colleagues here tell me it's common elsewhere. What I've found,

and others have substantiated, at least for TX, is that usage depends

on the situation. You might turn to your companion in the front seat

and ask if "ya'll want to get a pizza". At a service station, the attendant

might ask you if "ya'll want that filled?" When the highway patrol officer

pulls you over, however, s/he asks "Would you step out of the car, please?"

Never "ya'll". (I've been told about the last, can't speak for that

personally.)



The plural, then, is "all ya'll".



Let me modify the TX label. My San Antonio friends say that "ya'll

" is always plural there.



And, finally, all of the above is based on experience/anecdote, not on

organized fieldwork/data collection.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:16:01 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: y'all are crazy



Benjamin Barrett posted John M. Jeep's query regarding a "reliable

account" of the usage of "y'all" as singular. While I am not working on

this topic professionally at this point, I still feel I must respond in

defense of my personal dialect (I'm from Georgia). It may appear at times

that "y'all" is being used in the singular, but I assure you that is not

the case. I liked Tom Wharriet's explanation of the implied plural

meaning "you and yours." I think that thorough research would conclude

that there is always some implied or connoted plural meaning even when it

might seem otherwise.



Lisa

Ohio University



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:58:51 -0400

From:  "M. Katherine MacKinnon" <eslmkmx[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GSUSGI2.GSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



I remember a grammar teacher somewhere back in my elementary school days

in Atlanta (70's) telling us that y'all was perfectly acceptable used

plurally in spoken English, as it was merely a contraction of "you all"

and we had plenty of other contractions in English, but that singular

usage was a sign of poor upbringing and education, along with all those other

prescriptive grammar rules we were supposed to be learning. In my 28

years in the South (mostly Atlanta, with four years in east TN for

college) I don't recall ever having heard anyone use y'all in the

singular except recent transplants...who eventually restricted it to

plural only (whether from conscious or unconscious influence, I couldn't

say). All of this is, of course, anecdotal...



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 09:09:44 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



On Fri, 20 Oct 1995, Merri Lisa Johnson wrote:



> It may appear at times

> that "y'all" is being used in the singular, but I assure you that is not

> the case. I liked Tom Wharriet's explanation of the implied plural

> meaning "you and yours." I think that thorough research would conclude

> that there is always some implied or connoted plural meaning even when it

> might seem otherwise.



I agree thoroughly with Merri and Tom, and I've lived in the south for

most of my 37 years, most of those in Texas. The _only_ times I've ever

heard "y'all" used as a true singular was by new (and tin-eared) arrivals

to the south who were just beginning to try out the expression. Oh--I've also

heard it used that way in movies and on TV, which figures. But by those to

whom the expression is native--no, never.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:34:59 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



It may appear at times

> that "y'all" is being used in the singular, but I assure you that is not

> the case. I liked Tom Wharriet's explanation of the implied plural

> meaning "you and yours." I think that thorough research would conclude

> that there is always some implied or connoted plural meaning even when it

> might seem otherwise.



in lotsa languages (and so many unrelated ones that this seems not

to be an entirely arbitrary association), the plural form implies

politeness--couldn't this be what is going on? seems to go with what

was said about salesmen and friendly people using it, but not the

police officer who's caught you doing something naughty.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 10:45:10 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



I was wondering the same thing, and in particular whether the policeman would

have asked "Would y'all step out of the car" if he WERE addressing more than

one occupant. (Or, if that context appears unlikely, if he stopped a couple

of folks on the street and asked them "Do y'all have some ID?" or whatever.)

If _y'all_ is used in such cases, it appears that it is indeed a socioling.

variable. But notice that it's just in those contexts where, say, a French

speaker uses the historic plural for 2d person sg., i.e. in formal rather than

friendly exchanges, that the policeman avoids the historic plural. In the

terms of the Goffman-Brown-Levinson tradition, _yall_ seems to involve

positive face (or what Robin Lakoff called Rule 3 politeness: "Be friendly")

while _vous_ et al. invoke negative face (Lakoff's Rule 1 politeness,

Deference). I suppose I should make sure the descriptive generalization is

accurate before leaping off to conclusions, though.



Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

It may appear at times

> that "y'all" is being used in the singular, but I assure you that is not

> the case. I liked Tom Wharriet's explanation of the implied plural

> meaning "you and yours." I think that thorough research would conclude

> that there is always some implied or connoted plural meaning even when it

> might seem otherwise.



in lotsa languages (and so many unrelated ones that this seems not

to be an entirely arbitrary association), the plural form implies

politeness--couldn't this be what is going on? seems to go with what

was said about salesmen and friendly people using it, but not the

police officer who's caught you doing something naughty.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 11:11:55 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: You'uns/ye'uns/y'uns



I don't have anecdotal evidence about sing. y'all, BUT -- surely the

thread to follow will be sing. You'uns/ye'uns/y'uns -- and I have LOTS

of anecdotal evidence that it is used as a singular. Ex:



Medical doctor in clinic to patient who had just been given a prescription

by a clinic docotr, "Do you'uns want us to call that in for you?"



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:05:26 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> meaning "you and yours." I think that thorough research would conclude

> that there is always some implied or connoted plural meaning even when it

> might seem otherwise.



In SOD (Survey of Oklahoma Dialects), Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery found

a large number of people who claimed to use singular "y'all" themselves.

This might be easy to ignore, given that Oklahoma is not *really* the

South, but they claim that the 1994 Southern Focus Poll, conducted by

the Center for Study of the American South at UNC, found similar self-

reports among respondents in The Real South.



As a native Southerner, I'm convinced that they're wrong, of course.

Come to the ADS meeting in Chicago to hear why -- if I've figured out

how to prove it by then -- if I haven't, you'll have to be satisfied

with hearing about things like "y'all"/"you-all" distribution instead.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:08:55 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



Bradley Harris of the U of Memphis has written an article on "y'all" as

a polite singular -- forthcoming in _American Speech_, I think. I haven't

seen a copy of it yet, but he's supposed to be sending me its final version

within the next few weeks.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:17:57 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> in lotsa languages (and so many unrelated ones that this seems not

> to be an entirely arbitrary association), the plural form implies

> politeness--couldn't this be what is going on? seems to go with what

> was said about salesmen and friendly people using it, but not the

> police officer who's caught you doing something naughty.

>

> lynne



I don't know about Lynne's South African usages. From what I have

heard around here, polite plural forms are in the first person. The

element of politeness is in the inclusion of self--which makes it

plural. Hence, "we" cannot say that y'all fits this pattern.



Tom



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 13:10:02 -0700

From:  Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: y'all/y'uns



A colleague sent me some parts of your discussion. To obfuscate matters

more, let's add the possessive y'all's ("Where were y'all's parents born?")

and the objective y'uns, which I've also heard (Arkansas Ozarks) as the

nominative ("Where y'uns going'?").



The explanation of the "never singular" y'all as "you and yours" is

pretty crafty. That may well explain its origin, but isn't it the

synchronic question that is being dealt with? That is, do those who use

y'all as a singular (and they/you're out there, to be sure) truly mean

"you and yours"? Or has the sense of "...and yours" fallen away to create

what must be regarded descriptively (if not historically) as a singular?

Consider the parallel in the word children, for which the -er was the

original plural (cf. German Kinder); when the -er was no longer

understood as the plural, an additional one was produced: childer + -en >

children. And Black English has added a third: the standard -s. Result:

Chilluns / Chirrens. Diachronically clear, synchronically opaque. Or see

the nonstandard mens for men, the latter no longer understood to be plural

already. I suspect the foreword to the Dictionary of American Regional

English addresses this issue, but don't have my copy here in the office.



Anyway, a good discussion. Keep up the good work.



Peter Richardson



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 18:15:11 -0400

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



On Fri, 20 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> I don't know about Lynne's South African usages. From what I have

> heard around here, polite plural forms are in the first person. The

> element of politeness is in the inclusion of self--which makes it

> plural. Hence, "we" cannot say that y'all fits this pattern.



Tom,



Both German and French "polite" plurals are definitely second person, "Sie"

and "vous". Someone please correct me if I'm wrong; high school French was a

while back.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 17:21:51 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all/y'uns



 A friend of mine from Louisville KY claims that she uses singular y'all

and the the plural is `all y'all.'

I wonder whether English speakers from centuries ago had

this same argument when `you' was becoming singular.

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:45:08 -0400

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: y'all, youse, gyno-Americans



 Y'all seem to think that the beginning of this sentence is limited to

the southern U.S. Isn't it also used in New York? Up there they

pronounce it "youse" as in "youse guys" are outta your turf. Come to

think of it I have never heard it used referring to females.



The other night on TV a character evidently designed in the Mark Furman

mold coined a new, obnoxious term. He said "I don't discriminate against

Afro-Americans or gyno-Americans." I wonder what the term would be for men?

Any ideas?







Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 Oct 1995 23:44:00 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: You'uns/ye'uns/y'uns



Bethany cited a _singular_ example of y'uns as not "you and yours," but why

is it not?

In her example the doctor refers to him/herself as "us."

Bill Smith



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Oct 1995 to 20 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 1610 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. y'all, youse, gyno-Americans

 2. y'all are crazy (2)

 3. Scrap Basket (2)

 4. y'all, singular usage? (2)

 5. *** ===>> World's *Cheapest* Way to get USA Magazine Subscriptions

   delivered to *any* country (1,500+ USA titles to choose from).

 6. Vanity PLate of the Week

 7. Chicago



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 04:51:19 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, youse, gyno-Americans



In message Fri, 20 Oct 1995 21:45:08 -0400,

 SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET> writes:



> The other night on TV a character evidently designed in the Mark Furman

> mold coined a new, obnoxious term. He said "I don't discriminate against

> Afro-Americans or gyno-Americans." I wonder what the term would be for

> men? Any ideas?



With he shift to a Greek formative, try "Andro-American."



Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 08:39:10 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> I don't know about Lynne's South African usages. From what I have

> heard around here, polite plural forms are in the first person. The

> element of politeness is in the inclusion of self--which makes it

> plural. Hence, "we" cannot say that y'all fits this pattern.



no, i'm referring to things like french _vous_, german _Sie_, and in

(at least some) bantu languages noun class2 (human, plural), instead

of NC1 (human, singular) as an honorific (refering to "father" as

"fathers", etc.). there are other e.g.s (was old english like

this?), that i can't recall off-hand.



larry horn's point, that at least the plural "you" cases (french,

german, etc.) seem to be negative politeness strategies, while y'all

is claimed to be used in solidarity building (positive politeness)

contexts, is, however, an important one. IF there is a plural

"y'all" (and i'm suspicious that the southerners doth protest too

much!) and IF it is a (positive) politeness marker, then this

certainly would be an interesting addition to the data base.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:45:33 -0300

From:  Chris Brooks <chris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HSCC.KUNIV.EDU.KW>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



I believe that in Arabic the 2nd person plural pronoun communicates

politeness--as "As-salaamu aleikum" ("peace be upon you[PL]) and

the greeting "Keef halkum" ("you"[PL]) as opposed to "Keef halak"

("you"[S]). Am I right, Alan Kaye?

Chris Brooks / Kuwait



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 12:28:57 -0500

From:  Gerald Walton <vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Scrap Basket



In Memphis this week a person asked a clerk in a drug store if she had a

scrap basket. The clerk didn't understand the question until another

customer said, "She means a waste basket. Somebody else said, "It's been a

long time since I have heard 'scrap basket.'" I knew the meaning by the

context, but I don't know that I can remember hearing "scrap basket" before.

Is it widely used? (_American Heritage_ defines it as "For the collection or

disposal of scrap.") GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:06:28 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, singular usage?



 From my travels and experience, it would seem the difference between

"y'all" and "you" is informal vs. formal, an invitation or request vs. a

direct order. "Would you step out of the car, please" is a direct order;

if the officer used "y'all" in this situation, the driver in question would

take his sweet time getting out of the car, if indeed he bothered to at all.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 15:38:41 -0500

From:  "Patricia Eng, President, Association of International Students,

     Australia-New Zealand Chapter"

     <For.a.prompter.reply.please.fax[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IF.YOU.DO.NOT.HAVE.A.FAX.SMAIL.IS.OK>

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                     Staten Island NY 10312-0990



Sorry, but incomplete forms *will not* be acknowledged. If you do not

have an email address, or access to one, they will not be able to help you

until you do have one. If you saw this message, then you should have one. :)



Name:

Internet email address:

Smail home address:

City-State-Zip:

Country:

Work Tel. #:

Work Fax #:

Home Tel. #:

Home Fax #:

Name of USA mags you currently get on the newstand or in the store:

Name of USA mags you currently get on a subscription basis, through the mail:

Name of USA mags you would like price quotes on when they call you:

Catalogue format desired from below two choices:

(1. 19-part email message;  2. atttached file by email; see below on

which format may be best for you).

How did you hear about us (name of person who referred you or the area of

the internet that you saw us mentioned in):  Patricia Eng's referral

102195-l

*------------cut here-----------------------------------------------*





{{{Note- 19-part email can be received by anyone with any computer.

Attached file format may not be for you: it is sent as an uncompressed

525K file formatted in Microsoft World on a Mac; if you don't use

Microsoft Word on a Mac - you will have to know how to convert into a

usable text format. They cannot help you with this.  If in doubt, they

suggest you go with the universally acceptable 19-part email message. You

can always manually spend a few minutes pasting the parts into one

whole.}}}





They guarantee to beat all their competitors' prices. Sometimes they are

less than half of the next best deal I have been able to find and other

times, just a little cheaper - but I have never found a lower rate yet.

They assured me that if I ever do, they will beat it.



They have been very helpful and helped me change my address from the USA to

Finland and then back again when I moved last month. They are very

knowledgeable about addressing mags worldwide.



They have a deal where you can get a free 1 yr. sub to a new magazine from

a special list of over 300 popular titles published in the USA.  They will

give you this free 1 yr. sub when you place your first paid order with them

to a renewal or new subscription to any of the over 1,500 different popular

USA titles they sell.



They can arrange delivery to virtually any country and I think they have

clients in around 35 or 36 countries now. Outside the USA there is a

charge for foreign postage and handling (on both paid and freebie subs)

that varies from magazine to magazine. I have found their staff to be very

friendly and courteous. They even helped me with an address change when I

moved from one country to another.



The owner thinks of his service as a "club" and his clients as "members"

(even though there is no extra fee to become a member - your first purchase

automatically makes you a member) and he is real picky about who he accepts

as a new member.  When he sets you up as a new member, he himself calls

you personally on the phone to explain how he works his deal, or sometimes

he has one of his assistants call. He is kind of quirky sometimes - he

insists on setting up new members by phone so he can say hi to everyone (I

sure wouldn't want to have his phone bills!), but you can place future

orders (after your first order) via E-mail.



He has some really friendly young ladies working for him, who seem to know

just as much as he does about this magazine stuff. If you live overseas,

he will even call you there, as long as you are interested, but I think he

still makes all his overseas calls on the weekends, I guess cause the long

distance rates are cheaper then.



He only likes to take new members from referrals from satisfied existing

members and he does virtually no advertising. When I got set-up, they had

a 2-3 week waiting list for new members to be called back so that they

could join up. (Once you are an existing member, they help you immediately

when you call. ) I think they are able to get back to prospective new

members the same day or within a few days now, as they have increased

their staff. I am not sure about this.........but if you email the above

form to them, that is the way to get started!



They will send you their DELUXE EMAIL CATALOGUE (around 525K-big and

juicey) !)...if you completely fill out the form above. It has lists of

all the freebies, lists of all the titles they sell, titles broken down by

categories and detailed descriptions on nearly 1,200 of the titles that

they sell.



They then send you email that outlines how his club works and the list of

free choices that you can choose from, as well as the entire list of what

he sells; and then they will give you a quick (3-5 minute) friendly,

no-pressure no-obligation call to explain everything to you personally and

answer all your questions.



Once you get in, you'll love them. I do.





Sincerely,



Patricia Eng





ps. please forward a copy of this message to all your friends on the net

who you think might be interested in it! It is a great deal! If you join

and then they join after you, you will earn a free 1 yr. subscription for

each new person you get to join after you join!   Please make sure to

mention my name when you join.  I will get a free magazine for a year for

referring you.

Thanks.



Here are just some of the titles that they carry............ 99% are

available outside the USA to *all* countries. They can make special

shipping arrangements for adult magazines to countries in Asia where they

are normally very difficult to obtain.



ACCENT

ACCENT ON LIVING

ACCESSORIES

ACTION COMICS

ACTION PURSUIT GAMES

ADIRONDACK LIFE

ADVENTURE WEST

ADVENTURES OF SUPERMAN (COMIC)

ADVERTISING AGE

ADVOCATE

AFRICAN PROFILES INTERNATIONAL

AIR CLASSICS

AIR COMBAT

AIR FORCE TIMES

AIR & SPACE

ALASKA

ALASKA MEN

ALASKA OUTDOORS

ALBUQUERQUE MONTHLY

ALFRED HITCHCOCK MYSTERY

ALLURE

ALOHA

AMATEUR RADIO TECHNICAL JOURNAL

AMAZING SPIDERMAN (COMIC)

AMERCAN HEALTH

AMERICA'S CIVIL WAR

AMERICAN ARTIST

AMERICAN ASTROLOGY

AMERICAN BABY

AMERICAN BABY

AMERICAN CAGE BIRD

AMERICAN COLLECTOR'S JOURNAL

AMERICAN COTTON GROWER

AMERICAN COWBOY

AMERICAN COWBOY

AMERICAN DEMOGRAPHICS

AMERICAN FORESTS

AMERICAN FRUIT GROWER

AMERICAN HANDGUNNER

AMERICAN HEALTH

AMERICAN HERITAGE (HARD COVER)

AMERICAN HERITAGE INVENTION & TECHNOLOGY

AMERICAN HERITAGE (SOFT COVER)

AMERICAN HISTORY ILLUSTRATED

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF MATERNAL / CHILD NURSING

AMERICAN JOURNAL OF NURSING

AMERICAN LIQUIDATION MONTHLY

AMERICAN PHOTO

AMERICAN SALON

AMERICAN SPECTATOR

AMERICAN SQUARE DANCE

AMERICAN VEGETABLE GROWER

AMERICAN VISIONS

AMERICAN WOODWORKER

AMERICANA

AMERICAS (ENGLISH)

AMERICAS (SPANISH)

AMIGA WORLD

ANALOG SCIENCE FICTION / FACT

ANTIQUE TRADER WEEKLY

ANTIQUES

ANTIQUING AMERICA

AQUARIUM FISH

ARCHAEOLOGY

ARCHITECTURAL DIGEST

ARCHITECTURE

ARIEL

ARMY TIMES

ART & ANTIQUES

ART & ANTIQUES INVESTMENT REPORT

ART IN AMERICA

ARTIST'S MAGAZINE

ARTNEWS

ARTS & ACTIVITIES

ASIAN SOURCES (COMPUTER PRODUCTS)

ASIAN SOURCES (ELECTRONICS)

ASIAN SOURCES (GIFTS & HOME)

ASIAN SOURCES (HARDWARE)

ASIMOV'S SCIENCE FICTION

ASTROLOGY

ATLANTA

ATLANTA HOMES & LIFESTYLES

ATLANTIC MONTHLY

AUDIO

AUDIO / VIDEO INTERIORS

AUDUBON

AUTO RACING DIGEST

AUTOMOBILE

AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

AUTOMUNDO

AUTOTRONICS

AUTOWEEK

AVENGERS (COMIC)

AVENGERS WEST COAST (COMIC)

AVIATION HERITAGE

BACK STAGE

BACKPACKER

BACKSTRETCH

BALTIMORE

BANK NOTE REPORTER

BARBIE (COMIC)

BARBIE FASHION BOOK (COMIC)

BARBIE MAGAZINE

BARELY LEGAL

BARTER NEWS

BASEBALL CARD PRICE GUIDE

BASEBALL CARDS MAGAZINE

BASEBALL DIGEST

BASEBALL WEEKLY (USA TODAY)

BASKETBALL DIGEST

BASKETBALL WEEKLY

BASS PLAYER

BASS & WALLEYE BOATS

BASSIN'

BATMAN (COMIC)

BEAVIS & BUTTHEAD

BERKSHIRE

BEST RECIPES

BETTER HOMES & GARDENS

BEVERAGE WORLD

BEVERAGE WORLD

BIBLE REVIEW

BIBLICAL ARCHAEOLOGY REVIEW

BICYCLE GUIDE

BICYCLING

BIG BEAUTIFUL WOMAN (BBW)

BIRD TALK

BIRDER'S WORLD

BLACK AXE (COMIC)

BLACK BELT

BLACK COLLEGIAN

BLACK ELEGANCE

BLACK ENTERPRISE

BLOOD HORSE

BLUE & GOLD ILLUSTRATED

BOARDROOM REPORTS

BOATING

BOATING WORLD

BODY - MIND - SPIRIT

BON APPETIT

BOSTON MAGAZINE

BOTTOM LINE / PERSONAL

BOW & ARROW

BOW & ARROW HUNTING

BOW HUNTING WORLD

BOWHUNTER

BOWHUNTING

BOWHUNTING WORLD

BOWLING DIGEST

BOWMASTERS

BOXING ILLUSTRATED

BOY'S LIFE

BRIDAL GUIDE

BRIDES

BRITISH CAR

BRITISH HERITAGE

BROADCASTING

BUCKHUNTERS DIGEST

BUENHOGAR

BUSINESS PUBLISHING

BUSINESS START-UPS

BUSINESS WEEK

BUZZ (TALK OF LOS ANGELES)

BYTE

CABLE (COMIC)

CALIFORNIA JOURNAL

CAMCORDER

CAMERA & DARKROOM

CAMPUS LIFE

CANDY INDUSTRY

CANOE

CAPPER'S

CAPTAIN AMERICA (COMIC)

CAR AUDIO & ELECTRONICS

CAR COLLECTOR & CAR CLASSICS

CAR CRAFT

CAR & DRIVER

CAR STEREO REVIEW

CARAS DE PUERTO RICO

CARD COLLECTOR'S PRICE GUIDE

CARIBBEAN TRAVEL & LIFE

CARS & PARTS

CASH SAVER

CAT FANCY

CATALOG SHOPPING

CATHOLIC DIGEST

CATHOLIC FAMILY BIBLE

CATTLEMAN

CATWOMAN (COMIC)

CD REVIEW

CD-ROM TODAY

CD-ROM WORLD

CENTRAL FLORIDA CAREER GUIDE (W/UPDATES) CHAMPION CROSSWORD PUZZLES

CHAMPION VARIETY PUZZLES

CHAMPION VARIETY REVIEW

CHANGES

CHARISMA & CHRISTIAN LIFE

CHATELAINE (IN ENGLISH)

CHATELAINE (IN FRENCH)

CHESAPEAKE BAY

CHEVY HIGH PERFORMANCE

CHIC

CHICAGO

CHILD

CHILD LIFE

CHILDREN'S ALBUM

CHILDREN'S CLASSICS

CHILDREN'S DIGEST

CHILDREN'S PLAYMATE

CHOCOLATIER

CHRISTIAN HISTORY

CHRISTIAN PARENTING TODAY

CHRISTIAN READER

CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR

CHRISTIANITY TODAY

CIRCLE TRACK

CIRCUS

CIVIL WAR CHRONICLES

CIVIL WAR TIMES

CLASSIC AUTO RESTORER

CLEVELAND MAGAZINE

COACH

COIFFURE DE PARIS

COIN PRICES

COIN WORLD

COINAGE

COINS MAGAZINE

COLLECTOR EDITIONS

COLLECTORS MART

COLLECTORS NEWS

COLLECTORS NEWS

COLLEGE SPORTS

COLONIAL HOMES

COLORADO BUSINESS

COLORADO HOMES & LIFESTYLES

COLUMBIA JOURNALISM REVIEW

COMIC BOOK COLLECTOR

COMIC BOOK COLLECTOR'S PRICE GUIDE

COMIC SCENE

COMICS BUYERS GUIDE

COMICS SCENE

COMMON CAUSE

COMMONWEAL

COMPUTER GAME REVIEW & CD-ROM ENTERTAINMENT COMPUTER GAMING WORLD

COMPUTER LIFE

COMPUTER SHOPPER

COMPUTERWORLD

CONAN CLASSICS (COMIC)

CONAN SAGA (COMIC)

CONAN THE ADVENTURER (COMIC)

CONDE NASTE TRAVELER

*CONNECT-THE MODEM USERS RESOURCE*

CONSUMER REPORTS

CONSUMER REPORTS ON HEALTH

CONSUMER REPORTS TRAVEL LETTER

CONSUMER RESEARCH

CONSUMERS DIGEST

CONSUMERS RESEARCH

CONTEMPORARY CHRISTIAN MUSIC

COOK'S ILLUSTRATED

COOKBOOK DIGEST

COOKING LIGHT

CORVETTE FEVER

COSMOPOLITAN

COSMOPOLITAN EN ESPANOL

COUNTRY

COUNTRY ACCENTS

COUNTRY AMERICA

COUNTRY FEVER

COUNTRY GUIDE

COUNTRY HANDCRAFTS

COUNTRY HOME

COUNTRY HOME FOLK CRAFTS

COUNTRY JOURNAL

COUNTRY JOURNAL

COUNTRY LIVING

COUNTRY MUSIC

COUNTRY MUSIC CITY NEWS

COUNTRY SAMPLER

COUNTRY WOMAN

CQ RADIO AMATEURS JOURNAL

CRAFTING TODAY

CRAFTS

CRAFTS 'N THINGS

CRAFTWORKS FOR THE HOME

CRAIN'S NEW YORK BUSINESS

CRAYOLA KIDS

CREATIVE CLASSROOM

CREATIVE KIDS

CREATIVE QUILTING

CREATIVE REAL ESTATE

CREATIVE WOODWORKING & CRAFTS

CRICKET

CROCHET DIGEST

CROCHET FANTASY

CROCHET HOME

CROCHET WORLD

CROCHET WORLD SPECIALS

CROSS COUNTRY SKIER

CROSS STITCH

CROSS STITCH PLUS

CROSS STITCHER

CROSSSTITCH & COUNTRY CRAFTS

CRUISE TRAVEL

CRUISE TRAVEL

CRUISES & TOURS

CRUISING WORLD

CUSTOM & CLASSIC TRUCKS

CUSTOMER ASSURANCE REPORT

CUSTOMER SERVICE NEWSLETTER

CYCLE WORLD

DAILY NEWS RECORD

DANCE

DAREDEVIL (COMIC)

DARKHAWK (COMIC)

DAS LEBEN

DATA BASED ADVISOR

DAYTIME TV

DBMS (DATABASE MANAGEMENT SYSTEMS)

DEATH'S HEAD II (COMIC)

DEBATE ISSUES

DECORATING DIGEST

DECORATIVE ARTIST'S WORKBOOK

DECORATIVE ARTS PAINTING

DECORATVE WOODCRAFTS

DEER & DEER HUNTING

DEFENSE NEWS

DELAWARE TODAY

DELL CROSSWORD PUZZLES

DELL CROSSWORD SPECIAL

DELL CROSSWORDS & VARIETY PUZZLES

DELL HOROSCOPE

DELL LOGIC PUZZLES

DELL OFFICIAL CROSSWORD PUZZLES

DELL OFFICIAL PENCIL PUZZLE & WORD GAMES DELL OFFICIAL WORD SEARCH PUZZLES

DELL PENCIL PUZZLES & WORD GAMES

DELL POCKET CROSSWORD PUZZLES

DELL POCKET CROSSWORD PUZZLES

DELL WORD SEARCH PUZZLES

DES

DESKTOP VIDEO WORLD

DESSERTS

DETAILS

DETECTIVE COMICS

DETROIT MONTHLY

DIRT BIKE

DISCIPLESHIP JOURNAL

DISCOUNT STORE NEWS

DISCOVER

DISCOVER DIVING

DISNEY ADVENTURES

DISNEY'S HOW IT WORKS

DISTRIBUTION CENTER MANAGEMENT

DOG FANCY

DOG WORLD

DOLL CASTLE NEWS

DOLL DESIGNS

DOLL LIFE

DOLL WORLD

DOLLMAKING

DOLLS

DOOM 2099 (COMIC)

DOWN EAST

DOWN MEMORY LANE

DOWNBEAT

DR. DOBB'S JOURNAL

DR. STRANGE (COMIC)

DRUG & COSMETIC INDUSTRY

EARLY AMERICAN LIFE

EARLY CHILDHOOD NEWS

EARLY CHILDHOOD TODAY

EARTH

EARTH JOURNAL

EASY FAST "N FUN CROSSWORDS

EATING WELL

EBONY

EBONY MAN (EM)

ECONOMIST

ECOTRAVELER

ELECTRONIC GAMES

ELECTRONIC GAMING MONTHLY

ELECTRONIC LEARNING

ELECTRONICS NOW

ELITE MAGAZINE

ELLE (AMERICAN)

ELLE DECOR

ELLERY QUEEN'S MYSTERY

ELLERY QUEEN'S MYSTERY

EM (EBONY MAN)

EMERGE

ENGINEERING NEWS RECORD (ENR)

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY (EW)

ENTREE

ENTREPRENEUR

ENVIRONMENT

EQUITIES

EQUUS

ESQUIRE

ESSENCE

EUROPEAN CAR

EXCALIBUR (COMIC)

EXCEPTIONAL PARENT

EXECUTIVE FEMALE

FAITH & STUFF

FAMILY CIRCLE

FAMILY HANDYMAN

FAMILY LIFE

FANCY FOOD & CANDY

FANGORIA

FANTASTIC FOUR (COMIC)

FANTASY & SCIENCE FICTION

FAR OUT

FARM BUILDING NEWS

FARM & RANCH LIVING

FARMERS DIGEST

FASHION GUIDE

FASHION KNITTING

FATE

FEDERAL TIMES

FEMALE BODYBUILDING

FIELD & STREAM

FIGHTING KNIVES

FIGHTING STARS NINJA MAGAZINE

FILM THREAT

FINANCIAL TIMES OF LONDON (MON - SAT)

FINANCIAL WORLD

FINE GARDENING

FINE HOMEBUILDING

FINE WOODWORKING

FIREHOUSE

FISHING FACTS

FISHING & HUNTING NEWS

FISHING WORLD

FIVE LITER MUSTANG

FLARE

FLASH (COMIC)

FLEX

FLOORING

FLORIDA LIVING

FLORIDA SPORTSMAN

FLORIDA TREND

FLORIDA VACATION RENTALS

FLOWER & GARDEN

FLY FISHERMAN

FLY FISHING

FLYING

FLYING MODELS

FOOD & WINE

FOOTBALL DIGEST

FOOTBALL NEWS

FORBES

FORCE WORKS (COMIC)

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

FOREIGN POLICY

FORTUNE

FORUM (PENTHOUSE)

FOUR WHEEL / OFF ROAD

FOUR WHEELER

FRONT PAGE DETECTIVE

FUN-ZONE

FUR - FISH - GAME

FUTURIFIC

FUTURIFIC

G.I. JOE (COMIC)

GAME PLAYERS NINTENDO GUIDE

GAME PLAYERS NINTENDO - SEGA

GAME PLAYERS PC ENTERTAINMENT

GAMEPRO

GAMES

GARBAGE

GEMS & GEMNOLOGY

GEMS & GEMNOLOGY

GENTLEMEN'S QUARTERLY (GQ)

GEOMUNDO

GET RICH NEWS

GHOST RIDER 2099 (COMIC)

GHOST RIDER / BLAZE (COMIC)

GHOST RIDER (COMIC)

GIFTS & DECORATIVE ACCESSORIES

GIFTWARE NEWS

GLAMOUR

GLASS DIGEST

GLEANINGS IN BEE CULTURE

GOD'S WORD TODAY

GOLDMINE

GOLF DIGEST

GOLF FOR WOMEN

GOLF MAGAZINE

GOLF TIPS

GOLF WEEK

GOLF WORLD

GOLFING

GOOD DAY SUNSHINE

GOOD HOUSEKEEPING

GOOD OLD DAYS

GOOD OLD DAYS SPECIALS

GOURMET

GREEN LANTERN (COMIC)

GRIT

GROO (COMIC)

GROWING UP WITH SCIENCE

GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY (COMIC)

GUIDEPOSTS

GUIDEPOSTS (LARGE PRINT EDITION)

GUN DOG

GUN LIST

GUN WORLD

GUNS

GUNS & AMMO

GUNS & AMMO

HAIR ADDITIONS

HAIR & BEAUTY NEWS

HANDCRAFT ILLUSTRATED

HANDGUNNING

HANDGUNS

HARPER'S BAZAAR

HARPER'S BAZAAR EN ESPANOL

HARPER'S MAGAZINE

HARROWERS (COMIC)

HARVARD BUSINESS REVIEW

HAWAII

HEALTH

HELLSTORM (COMIC)

HERALD TRIBUNE CROSSWORD PUZZLES ONLY

HERALD TRIBUNE & OTHER CROSSWORD GAMES

HERO ILLUSRATED

HIGHLANDER

HIGHLIGHTS

HIGHLIGHTS

HISPANIC

HISTORIC PRESERVATION

HOCKEY DIGEST

HOCKEY NEWS

HOLLYWOOD STUDIO

HOLLYWOOD STUDIO MAG THEN & NOW

HOMBRE DE MUNDO

HOME COOKING

HOME GYM & FITNESS

HOME MAGAZINE

HOME MAGAZINE

HOME MECHANIX

HOME OFFICE COMPUTING

HONOLULU

HOOKED IN CROCHET

HORIZON

HOROSCOPE

HOROSCOPE/ A PERSONAL DAILY GUIDE FOR EVERYONE HOROSCOPE / DELL

HORSE & HORSEMAN

HORSE & HORSEMAN

HORSE ILLUSTRATED

HORSE & RIDER

HORSEPLAY

HORTICULTURE

HOT BOAT

HOT ROD

HOT ROD HARLEYS

HOUSE BEAUTIFUL

HOUSTON METROPOLITAN

HOUSTON PEOPLE

HOUSTON PROFILES

HOW

HUDSON VALLEY

HUMPTY DUMPTY

HUNTING

HUSTLER

HUSTLER'S BUSTY BEAUTIES

HUSTLER'S EROTIC VIDEO GUIDE

HUSTLER'S FANTASIES

HUSTLER'S HUMOR

I LOVE CATS

IDEAS

IDEAS PARA SU HOGAR

ILLUSTRATED BIBLE FOR CHILDREN

IMPORT AUTO PARTS & ACCESSORIES

IN BUSINESS

IN-FISHERMAN

INC.

INCOME OPPORTUNITIES

INCOME PLUS

INCREDIBLE HULK (COMIC)

INDIVIDUAL INVESTOR

IINDUSTRIAL MARKET PLACE

INSIDE EDGE

INSIDE IRELAND

INSIDE KARATE

INSIDE KUNG FU

INSIDE SPORTS

INSIGHT

INSTITUTIONAL INVESTOR

INSTRUCTOR

INTERIOR DECORATOR'S HANDBOOK

INTERIOR DESIGN

INTERIORS

INTERNATIONAL LIVING

INTERNATIONAL NURSING INDEX

INTERNET WORLD

INTERVIEW

INTIMATE FASHION NEWS

INVESTOR'S DAILY

IRON MAN (COMIC)

ISLANDS

ISRAEL SCENE

JACK & JILL

JERSEY WOMAN

JERUSALEM POST INTERNATIONAL WEEKLY EDITION JERUSALEM REPORT

JET

JEWISH EXPONENT

JEWISH HOMEMAKER

JEWISH POST & OPINION

JEWISH PRESS

JUSTICE LEAGUE AMERICA (COMIC)

JUSTICE LEAGUE EUROPE ( COMIC)

KARATE / KUNG FU ILLUSTATED

KEYBOARD

KID CITY

KIDSPORTS

KIPLINGER'S PERSONAL FINANCE

KIT CAR

KITPLANES

KNIFE WORLD

KNITTING DIGEST

KNITTING WORLD

L'ACTUALITE

LA LUZ

LA VIE

LADIES HOME JOURNAL

LADY'S CIRCLE

LADYBUG

LAKELAND BOATING

LAN MAGAZINE (LOCAL AREA NETWORK)

LAPIDARY JOURNAL

LEADERSHIP

LEARNING '94

LEFTHANDER

LEGAL GUIDE FOR THE FAMILY

LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES (COMIC)

LET'S LIVE

LIBRARY OF NATURAL WONDERS

LIFE

LIGHTING DIMENSIONS

LINK-UP

LINN'S STAMP NEWS

LITTLE MERMAID

LLUMO VOGUE

LONGEVITY

LOONEY TUNES (COMIC)

LOOSE CHANGE

LOS ANGELES

LOTTERY PLAYERS MAGAZINE

MAC HOME JOURNAL

MACLEANS

MACUSER

MACWORLD

MADEMOISELLE

MARKETERS FORUM

MARRIAGE PARTNERSHIP

MARVEL AGE (COMIC)

MARVEL COMICS PRESENTS

MARVEL TALES SPIDERMAN (COMIC)

MCCALL'S

MCCALL'S NEEDLEWORK & CRAFTS

MECANICA POPULAR

MECHANICA POPULAR

MEDIA & METHODS

MEDICAL & HEALTH ENCYCLOPEDIA

MEDICAL HOTLINE

MEDICAL UPDATE

MEGA PLAY

MEMPHIS MAGAZINE

MEN'S CONFIDENTIAL

MEN'S FITNESS

MEN'S HEALTH

MEN'S JOURNAL

METROPOLIS

METROPOLITAN HOME

MICKEY MOUSE

MICRO COMPUTER JOURNAL

MICROSOFT SYSTEMS JOURNAL

MID-ATLANTIC COUNTRY

MIDSTREAM

MIDWEST LIVING

MILITARY HISTORY

MILWAUKEE

MINISTRIES TODAY

MINNESOTA MONTHLY

MIRABELLA

MOBILE OFFICE

MODEL AIRPLANE NEWS

MODEL NEWS

MODEL SHOPPER

MODELS & TALENT/CASTING NEWS

MODERN BRIDE

MODERN GUN

MODERN HORSE BREEDING

MODERN SALON

MOMENT

MONEY

MONEYPAPER

MOODY MAGAZINE

MOODY MONTHLY

MOPAR MUSCLE

MORIBUS (COMIC)

MOTHER EARTH NEWS

MOTHER JONES

MOTHERING

MOTOR BOATING & SAILING

MOTOR TREND

MOTORCROSS ACTION

MOTORCYCLE CONSUMER NEWS

MOTORCYCLIST

MOTORHOME

MOUNTAIN BIKE

MOVIE MARKETPLACE

MOVIELINE

MUNDO 21

MUSCLE & FITNESS

MUSCLECAR REVIEW

MUSICIAN

MUSTANG MONTHLY

MUSTANGS & FORDS

MUSTANGS MONTHLY

NAILS

NAMOR (COMIC)

NATION

NATION'S BUSINESS

NATION'S RESTAURANT NEWS

NATIONAL AUCTION REPORT

NATIONAL ENQUIRER

NATIONAL FISHERMAN

NATIONAL LAW JOURNAL

NATIONAL OTC STOCK JOURNAL

NATIONAL PARK MAGAZINE

NATIONAL REVIEW

NATIONAL TRIAL LAWYER

NATURAL HEALTH

NATURAL HISTORY

NAVY TIMES

NBA INSIDE STUFF

*THE NET* (about the Internet)

NEEDLE & CRAFT

NEVADA MAGAZINE

NEW AGE JOURNAL

NEW BUSINESS OPPORTUNITIES

NEW CHOICES

NEW ENGLAND JOURNAL OF MEDICINE

NEW FARM

NEW JERSEY MONTHLY

NEW JERSEY OUTDOORS

NEW MEXICO

NEW REPUBLIC

NEW TITANS (COMIC)

NEW WARRIORS (COMIC)

NEW WOMAN

NEW YORK MAGAZINE

NEW YORK REVIEW OF BOOKS

NEW YORKER

NEWSWEEK

NICE & EASY FAMILY COOKBOOK

NIGHT TRASHER (COMIC)

NIGHT WATCH (COMIC)

NO-TILL FARMER

NORTH FLORIDA LIVING

NORTH SHORE (CHICAGO)

NOVA (COMIC)

NUMISMATIC NEWS

NURSING

NUTRITION & DIETARY CONSULTANT

NUTRITION HEALTH REVIEW

OCCASIONAL BULLETIN

OFF ROAD

OFFICIAL CROSSWORD PUZZLES

OFFICIAL DETECTIVE

OFFICIAL MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL ROOKIE LEAGUE MAGAZINE FOR KIDS OFFICIAL

PENCIL PUZZLES / WORD GAMES

OFFICIAL US CUSTOM HOUSE GUIDE

OFFICIAL WORD SEARCH PUZZLES

OLD CARS NEWS & MARKETPLACE

OLD CARS PRICE GUIDE

OLD HOUSE JOURNAL

OLD TIME CROCHET

OMNI

ONLINE ACCESS

ONSAT

OPEN WHEEL

OPERA NEWS

OPPORTUNITY MAGAZINE

ORGANIC GARDENING

OUTDOOR LIFE

OUTDOOR PHOTOGRAPHER

OUTDOOR PRESS

OUTSIDE

OVERDRIVE

PACIFIC NORTHWEST

PACK -O-FUN

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POWER & MOTOR YACHT

PRACTICAL HORSEMAN

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W MAGAZINE

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WIN MAGAZINE

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WOMEN'S CIRCLE CROCHET

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WOMEN'S HOUSEHOLD CROCHET

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WOMEN'S SPORTS & FITNESS

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WONDER MAN (COMIC)

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WOOD

WOOD STROKES

WOODEN BOAT

WOODSHOP NEWS

WOODWORKER

WOODWORKER PROJECTS & TECHNIQUES

WORD WIZE

WORKBASKET

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WORKING MOTHER

WORKING WOMAN

WORLD COIN NEWS

WORLD & I

WORLD PRESS REVIEW

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WORLDVIEW

WORTH

WRITER'S DIGEST

X-FACTOR (COMIC)

X-FORCE (COMIC)

X-MEN 2099 (COMIC)

X-MEN ADVENTURES (COMIC)

X-MEN BRAND NEW (COMIC)

X-MEN CLASSICS (COMIC)

X-MEN EARLY YEARS (COMIC)

YACHT RACING/CRUISING

YACHTING

YANKEE

YM (YOUNG & MODERN)

YOGA JOURNAL

YOUR MONEY

YSB (YOUNG SISTERS & BROTHERS)

ZILLIONS

ZOO BOOKS



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 17:07:47 -0400

From:  Charity Stafford <cls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORLD.STD.COM>

Subject: Re: Scrap Basket



> In Memphis this week a person asked a clerk in a drug store if she had a

> scrap basket. The clerk didn't understand the question until another

> customer said, "She means a waste basket. Somebody else said, "It's been a

> long time since I have heard 'scrap basket.'" I knew the meaning by the

> context, but I don't know that I can remember hearing "scrap basket"

> before. Is it widely used? (_American Heritage_ defines it as "For the

> collection or disposal of scrap.") GWW



Hmm. I would assume a "scrap basket" to be a basket (or

generic description applied to some other container,

possibly) for SEWING scraps - odds and ends of fabric for

patchwork, doll clothes, other small projects. As in the

traditional patchwork pattern, "Basket of Scraps," actually.



Charity

(native - more or less - Bostonian)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 16:12:40 +0600

From:  Jim McCulloch <mcculloch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, singular usage?



I am a native speaker of a y'all dialect, and I have to say I have never

encountered a southerner, ever, who used a singular y'all, formal or

otherwise. My reaction to this policeman would be to think he was

hallucinating extra people in the car.

Now if he were the local constable, and he knew me and my family well, and

said to me "how y'all doin?" I would know he meant "How are you and your

family doing?" But that's plural, isn't it?

-Jim McCulloch



> From my travels and experience, it would seem the difference between

>"y'all" and "you" is informal vs. formal, an invitation or request vs. a

>direct order. "Would you step out of the car, please" is a direct order;

>if the officer used "y'all" in this situation, the driver in question would

>take his sweet time getting out of the car, if indeed he bothered to at all.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 18:37:42 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Vanity PLate of the Week



(from Tennessee, no county designated)



    FIXXNTO



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

the plate on my minivan reads: LINGWST



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 Oct 1995 17:37:46 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Chicago



Any females out there interested in sharing a room at the Barclay Thurs. and

Fri, Dec. 28 and 29? If so, please respond to me. Thanks.



Luanne von Schneidemesser

lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu





Luanne von Schneidemesser, (608) 263-2748

DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706

lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Oct 1995 to 21 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 33 messages totalling 640 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. y'all are crazy (14)

 2. Scrap Basket

 3. statements spoken as if it were a question (9)

 4. skraw/skring (2)

 5. Drawrings (3)

 6. Question about "fixing to" (3)

 7. Slogans on Office Door (I'm Tired of Y'ALL)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:00:28 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



I recently heard an addition to y'all: just to make sure the group

understood they were -all- being addressed the woman said, many times

during her talk: all y'all.  wow!



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:38:39 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: Scrap Basket



That's what I find so appealing about Southern speech, you may not have

ever heard the words used in exactly that manner but you can understand

the meaning because of the context. I think it is a lot of fun. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:46:26 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> during her talk: all y'all.  wow!



Why wow? Sometimes "all y'all" is useful to make clear that you don't

mean just "some of y'all." Or is the question about the deletion of "of"

in "all of y'all" -- as opposed to "some of y'all" (*some y'all)?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:47:51 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



All y'all just seemed like overkill to me, since I think of y'all as being

plural already, that's all.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:55:05 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: statements spoken as if it were a question



What is the origin of the trend I've noticed of raising the tone of

voice at the end of a sentence that is obviously a statement and making

it sound like a question?  This is my new cat?  or

We went out to dinner at that new place?

This second example seems to be giving information and at the same time

asking the listener if they are aware of the new restaurant.

just curious. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 08:59:49 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> All y'all just seemed like overkill to me, since I think of y'all as being

> plural already, that's all.



I very definitely think of "y'all" as always plural, in spite of the hints

of evidence to the contrary. But I use "all y'all" on occasion since

"all y'all" is different from "some of y'all." Sort of like "all of us"

or "we all." I don't think anybody would think of that as overkill just

because "we" is already plural.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:04:51 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



> What is the origin of the trend I've noticed of raising the tone of

> voice at the end of a sentence that is obviously a statement and making

> it sound like a question?  This is my new cat?  or



I don't know anything about its origin or history, but it's associated

with females more than with males and with Southerners more than with

Yankees. Southern females are, therefore, prime examples of it. The

videotape "American Tongues" has a funny segment on the Southern use of

question intonation as an explanation of why the South lost the war --

commands like "charGE" (rising pitch) were construed as questions rather

than commands.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:04:50 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



ok, I never thought of 'some of y'all. thanks. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:10:10 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



'charGE' now *that's* funny!

I was guessing that maybe the valley girl speech from California was

the root of the question intonation phenomenon, but then I don't know.

Yes, I agree, it does seem to be more of a female trait. Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:17:32 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: skraw/skring



Instead of: I forgot my straw. I've heard: I forgot my skraw.

also other words beginning in str substituting the skr; skreet, etc.

comments? Marla



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 09:49:37 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



>> All y'all just seemed like overkill to me, since I think of y'all as

>> being plural already, that's all.

>>

>

> I very definitely think of "y'all" as always plural, in spite of the hints

> of evidence to the contrary. But I use "all y'all" on occasion since

> "all y'all" is different from "some of y'all." Sort of like "all of us"

> or "we all." I don't think anybody would think of that as overkill just

> because "we" is already plural.

> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



  "All y'all" suggests, consistent with Natalie's observations (above and

earlier), that "all" in "y'all" (why not "yall" by the way) has already

bleached the meaning of 'totality'. PLURAL is different from TOTALITY,

isn't it? I suspect a difference between "yall"-users and those that do not

use it may also lie in whether they interpret "yall" etymologically rather

than synchronically. I may of course be wrong if Marla is also a "y'all"-user.

Just a guess.

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 11:01:30 -0400

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



>> What is the origin of the trend I've noticed of raising the tone of

>> voice at the end of a sentence that is obviously a statement and making

>> it sound like a question?  This is my new cat?  or

>

>I don't know anything about its origin or history, but it's associated

>with females more than with males and with Southerners more than with

>Yankees. Southern females are, therefore, prime examples of it. The

>videotape "American Tongues" has a funny segment on the Southern use of

>question intonation as an explanation of why the South lost the war --

>commands like "charGE" (rising pitch) were construed as questions rather

>than commands.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



Could this be the Valley Girl talk which originated in Southern California?

Connie Chung did a program on it about a year or two ago.



Seth Sklarey



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:11:18 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> earlier), that "all" in "y'all" (why not "yall" by the way) has already

                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Good question. The answer in my case is old habit of spelling it "y'all."

I do find Michael Montgomery's suggestions convincing that it is not a

contraction of "you-all," however.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 11:31:52 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Drawrings



 My business partner is an art therapist; when she gets an art therapy

group together, she has us do "drawrings." The only other time I've heard

of this pronunciation(and she has other linguistic ideosyncrasies that the

locals here have a hard time understanding)is on a Saturday Night Live

sketch about a little British boy named Simon who "likes to do drawrings."

My business partner lived in NYC for the first forty-odd years of her life,

and has since lived in Seattle and several locations in Arizona before com-

ing to Vermont. Any idea if this is a regional idiosyncracy from anywhere,

or is it just her?



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:33:25 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



>> earlier), that "all" in "y'all" (why not "yall" by the way) has already

>>

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> Good question. The answer in my case is old habit of spelling it "y'all."

> I do find Michael Montgomery's suggestions convincing that it is not a

> contraction of "you-all," however.



Natalie:

 Can you remind me where Michael Montgomery's suggestions were expressed

(publication or manuscript)? I know he discussed "y'all/yall" somewhere, but

I really do not remember off the top of my head.

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene          s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago         312-702-8531

Department of Linguistics       FAX: 312-702-9861

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 11:54:12 -0400

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Drawrings



New Yorkers have added R's that were lost by Bostonians.



Seth Sklarey





> My business partner is an art therapist; when she gets an art therapy

>group together, she has us do "drawrings." The only other time I've heard

>of this pronunciation(and she has other linguistic ideosyncrasies that the

>locals here have a hard time understanding)is on a Saturday Night Live

>sketch about a little British boy named Simon who "likes to do drawrings."

>My business partner lived in NYC for the first forty-odd years of her life,

>and has since lived in Seattle and several locations in Arizona before com-

>ing to Vermont. Any idea if this is a regional idiosyncracy from anywhere,

>or is it just her?

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 10:59:37 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



>  Can you remind me where Michael Montgomery's suggestions were expressed

> (publication or manuscript)? I know he discussed "y'all/yall" somewhere, but

> I really do not remember off the top of my head.



Are you out there, Joan Hall? Joan was one of the editors of the anthology

I found his essay in, but I can't remember the exact title now. I had to

get the book through Inter-Library Loan. He might have published something

about this elsewhere also.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 12:37:38 -0500

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



Thanks, Natalie. I have the book and will check it.

Sali.



******************************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene            s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago           312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

****************************************************************************

**



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 14:42:42 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



Am I missing something, not knowing much about Southern speech?



Using a rising tone at the end of a sentence to make a question is a very

common form of question in English at large.



You're going?

It's at three o'clock?

He's going when?



I think doing this shows surprise to some information or adds emphasis, but

I can't see where it is especially Southern or characteristic of female

speech.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 14:26:26 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



> Am I missing something, not knowing much about Southern speech?

>

> Using a rising tone at the end of a sentence to make a question is a very

> common form of question in English at large.



I thought we were talking about using question intonation in statements --

e.g., I went to the movies last nIGHT. I saw this great movIE. (caps=

rising pitch).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 16:31:48 -0400

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



On Sun, 22 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> > Am I missing something, not knowing much about Southern speech?

> >

> > Using a rising tone at the end of a sentence to make a question is a very

> > common form of question in English at large.

>

> I thought we were talking about using question intonation in statements --

> e.g., I went to the movies last nIGHT. I saw this great movIE. (caps=

> rising pitch).

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



You're exactly right in pointing out the difference, Natalie. And while

I'm in no position to speak for the rest of the country, Southerners,

particularly Southern women, do practice this statement into question

intonation. As for its origins, it seems to me to be a very Scottish

thing--just thinking back to the interviews I've seen with Sheena

Easton, or the movie _Local Hero_, for examples. I also remember hearing

it in all those early interviews with the Beatles, so I guess it's also a

Liverpuddlian thING. I think the adjective is Liverpuddlian. Back to

the Scottish connection, there is a fairly strong Scottish strain in the

south. That's true of the NC mountains, from whence I hail.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 16:30:06 -0500

From:  Alan R Slotkin <ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>

Subject: Re: Drawrings



>  My business partner is an art therapist; when she gets an art therapy >

group together, she has us do "drawrings." The only other time I've heard > of

this pronunciation(and she has other linguistic ideosyncrasies that the >

locals here have a hard time understanding)is on a Saturday Night Live > sketch

about a little British boy named Simon who "likes to do drawrings." > My

business partner lived in NYC for the first forty-odd years of her life, > and

has since lived in Seattle and several locations in Arizona before com- > ing

to Vermont. Any idea if this is a regional idiosyncracy from anywhere, > or is





As an ex-NYer myself, I still in moments of inebriation or tiredness or

agitation add r to words that end in vowels, so that I am likely to say "drawr

me a picture." And I lived only 5 years of my current 5" and I lived only 5 of

my 51 yrs. in NYC.





-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan R. Slotkin

Professor of English

Box 5053

Tennessee Technological University

Cookeville, TN 38505



Phone: 615-372-3262

FAX: 615-372-6142

e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 17:55:40 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Question about "fixing to"



Someone on another list has asked the ff. question. If you have the

answer on the tip of your tongue, please share. Thanks.



"We say "fixin' to" around here. I'm not a native Oklahoman, so I

didn't say it for years. But now I kind of like it. It slides off the

tongue so easily "getting ready to" or "about to" or "preparing to"

feels like a mouthful of marbles now.



 A question: Does this little phrase, since it is southern, have

english origins? Can you trace it back to someplace in particular? I've

been curious for years."



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 15:00:18 -1000

From:  Norman Roberts <nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



During my service with the federalized Alabama/Mississippi National Guard

(Dixie Division) from 1951-52, I recall the following paradigm:

you (sg)

y'all (pl)

all y'all

y'all all

all y'all all

The last three items applied to groups of various sizes and membership.I

don't recall that any single speaker ever used all items in the paradigm.

The educated speakers never used the last two forms; in fact they said

the forms "were ignorant." I always wanted to research the paradigm, but

I have never since encountered "southern" speakers who would admit the

existence of these forms.



On Sun, 22 Oct 1995 mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU wrote:



> I recently heard an addition to y'all: just to make sure the group

> understood they were -all- being addressed the woman said, many times

> during her talk: all y'all.  wow!

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 21:01:51 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



Benjamin Barrett wonders,



>>Am I missing something, not knowing much about Southern speech?

>>

>>Using a rising tone at the end of a sentence to make a question is a very

>>common form of question in English at large.



...to which Natalie points out,

>I thought we were talking about using question intonation in statements

>--

>e.g., I went to the movies last nIGHT. I saw this great movIE. (caps=

>rising pitch).



Alternately put (since after all, Benjamin's examples--e.g. "You're going?"--

have the SYNTACTIC form of statements), we're talking about speaker's

intention: to make a statement without appearing too "assertive", rather than

to ask the hearer for information that the hearer is a better position than

the speaker to provide. This is the phenomenon popularly called "Upspeak" or

"Uptalk", or rather "Upspeak?" I think Robin Lakoff, in her _Language and

Woman's Place_ (Harper & Row, 1974) was the first to suggest upspeak as a

stylistic characteristic of women's speech, but she's been followed by

dozens of writers on language and gender who have either supported or

challenged her generalization, including some who have ascribed the tendency

to "powerless" style as opposed to "women's style". Most of the writing in

this domain leaves the regional issue untouched. (There's also a paper in a

recent Journal of Pragmatics by Julia Hirschberg and Gregory Ward on some of

the formal properties of upspeak, including a representation of the phonetics.

 Less formally, there have many treatments in the popular press, including

Bill Safire and various op-ed writers in the New York Times, and a great

satirical piece that someone posted to us on this list a couple of months

back.)





Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 21:20:12 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



Natalie writes,



>> All y'all just seemed like overkill to me, since I think of y'all as

>> being plural already, that's all.





>I very definitely think of "y'all" as always plural, in spite of the hints

>of evidence to the contrary. But I use "all y'all" on occasion since

>"all y'all" is different from "some of y'all" Sort of like "all of us"

>or "we all." I don't think anybody would think of that as overkill just

>because "we" is already plural.



As a non-native speaker of the relevant dialect(s), I'm not convinced about

the obligatory plurality of 'y'all', especially given some of the attested

instances we've been reading about; it seems as though we have a case of

language change in progress, at least for some of the dialect area. But

Natalie is surely right on y'all vs. all y'all: it's not just 'we all' that

can be cited here, but 'you all', which is perfectly good in my native dialect

with the meaning 'all of you': Are you all planning to go to Kim's [...or

just some of you]? What I would have thought didn't occur is "quantifier

floating" the 'all' over 'y'all', to yield 'y'all all'. But no doubt there

are speakers who say it all the time. Anyway, I prefer 'all y'all' for its

palindromic flavor.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 21:35:32 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: skraw/skring



>Instead of: I forgot my straw. I've heard: I forgot my skraw.

>also other words beginning in str substituting the skr; skreet, etc.

>comments? Marla



 So you're hearing [skr-] in these clusters? This seems to be related to

a phenomenon I think we talked about here a year or so ago (or maybe it was on

Linguist?) in which the [s] is palatalized, yielding something like 'shtreet'

in the clusters you cite. This palatalization seems to be especially frequent

among Long Islanders, particularly those with Italian surnames. Seriously.

Does anyone on the list know anybody who discusses either this palatalization

Marla's velarization in these str- initial clusters?  (At least the former

development isn't too surprising, since the -tr- is or can be itself somewhat

palatalized in many idiolects, including my own; but motivation isn't reality

for most speakers.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 21:00:42 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



> you (sg)

> y'all (pl)

> all y'all

> y'all all

> all y'all all

> The last three items applied to groups of various sizes and membership.I

> don't recall that any single speaker ever used all items in the paradigm.

> The educated speakers never used the last two forms; in fact they said

> the forms "were ignorant." I always wanted to research the paradigm, but

> I have never since encountered "southern" speakers who would admit the

> existence of these forms.



The last one in the list is the only one I don't remember having heard

or used.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   native speaker of Southern



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:09:31 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Slogans on Office Door (I'm Tired of Y'ALL)



When I left Trinity U for U of TN 20+ years ago, my sec'y (would that I

had one here!!!) made a sign for my office, which I have had up all these

years:



    DIALECT SPOKE HERE



Only occasionally do I get a nasty comment about it.



Bethany Dumas

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:10:30 -0400

From:  Duane Price <Thx23[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



Larry wrote:



> we're talking about speaker's intention: to make a statement without

appearing too

>"assertive"



I first noticed this speech habit when I had a professor, a woman, who did it

constantly.

I noticed, however, that in normal conversation outside the classroom it was

much

less prevalent for her. I came to understand it, from context, to be a sort

of subtle

request for affirmation, or perhaps a search for comprehension: as if she

were saying,

"You follow me?" after each of those statements.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:17:49 -0400

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



Although it has been many years since I've lived in yall country, when the

y'all all suggestion was posted, I recognized y'all all as a normal part of my

native paradigm. It occurs under full, emphatic stress. It occurs in contexts

such as "Are yall ALL going?" with some incredulity. "I can't believe that all

of you are going."



Jim Stalker

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 22:21:19 -0400

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Question about "fixing to"



There was an article on fixin to in American Speech about five years ago. I

don't have them at home, so can't check which one. I believe that there was

some discussion of origin.



Jim Stalker

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 23:29:42 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Question about "fixing to"



Thanks, James. I'll check my AS file tomorrow.



Bethany

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Oct 1995 to 22 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 24 messages totalling 567 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. y'all are crazy (2)

 2. statements spoken as if it were a question (7)

 3. statements with question intonation

 4. Question about "fixing to"

 5. y'all, youse, gyno-Americans (2)

 6. skraw/skring (5)

 7. Drawrings (2)

 8. ADS-L session at M/MLA (2)

 9. "Valley Girl talk"

 10. Testosto-thoughts



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 23:06:46 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



At 10:17 PM 10/22/95 -0400, James C Stalker wrote:

>I recognized y'all all as a normal part of my

>native paradigm. It occurs under full, emphatic stress. It occurs in contexts

>such as "Are yall ALL going?" with some incredulity. "I can't believe that all

>of you are going."



I would also use it in situations where "all y'all" might do as well.

"Y'all _all_ don't need to come to the store with me--just someone to help

carry the packages." I agree that the "all" usually, maybe always, takes

some stress. Not sure there must be incredulity, but perhaps I'm splitting

hairs.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 21:33:14 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



This syntactic feature is well attested in Ireland and found among the

descendents of many Irish who settled in the American South. It is found

current today in Ireland, from Belfast to Cork, Dublin to Shannon.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 00:51:22 -0400

From:  Benjamin Barrett <Gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GNN.COM>

Subject: statements with question intonation



I guess I do know about this after all. A male bureaucrat working in

Olympia, WA used this recently during a briefing on the progress with a

certain proposal. At the time I was really puzzled and wondered whether

that sort of intontation gets people to go along with what a person is

saying. Maybe it's spreading.



yoroshiku

Benjamin Barrett



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 23:52:59 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Question about "fixing to"



Don't forget the famous song by County Joe and the Fish (from California) -

made particularly famous by singing it at Woodstock of "Fixin' to Die Rag."



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:32:02 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



There was an article on this pitch characteristic of Southern English in

_American Speech_ sometime in the very early 1980s. I forget who the

author was.  The article was a useful eye-opener for a new sojourner in

Deep Dixie.



By the way, I was heating up some leftovers in the microwave last night at

my mother-in-law's, and I noticed that the Look Out Moon Pies box had a

serving suggestion: place a Moon Pie in the microwave for a few seconds

and eat it warm. It suddenly occurred to me that a s'more was a campfire

version of the classic moon pie.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 07:31:04 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



Michael Montgomery discussed the etymology of "Y'all" in an essay in a

Festschrift for Frederic Cassidy. It's called _Old English and New_, and

was edited by Nick Doane, Dick Ringler, and me (Garland, 1992).

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 07:56:50 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, youse, gyno-Americans



> Y'all seem to think that the beginning of this sentence is limited to

> the southern U.S. Isn't it also used in New York? Up there they

> pronounce it "youse" as in "youse guys" are outta your turf. Come to

> think of it I have never heard it used referring to females.

> Seth Sklarey

>



As I recall, "youse" is also used in Chicago.



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 10:07:58 EDT

From:  Tony Vitale <vitale[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DECTLK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



Larry:

    This palatalization is not restricted to Long Islanders. It's very

prevalent in the Boston area (even among non-Italians) where street ->

shtreet.



    \tony



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:40:10 -0600

From:  "Garland D. Bills" <gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



I kept hoping someone more knowledgeable would pick up this thread, but

I guess I'm going to have to throw in a response based on research of

nearly 30 years ago. The occurrence of [k] for [t] in /str/ clusters I

found to be very common in the speech of Black children across Texas. I

seem to recall that there was a tendency for it to be developmental, more

common in elementary school children than in high school kids. It was a

definite ethnic dialect feature, never occurring in the speech of Anglo

or Chicano children of the rather large database I collected for the

Texas Education Agency.



Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 07:32:55 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



>>This syntactic feature is well attested in Ireland and found among the



I always thought the Irish were noted for never making statements, but only

asking questions. As in:



P1: "Can you tell me where the post office is?"



P2: "Is it a stamp that you be needing?"



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:52:12 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all, youse, gyno-Americans



>> Y'all seem to think that the beginning of this sentence is limited to

>> the southern U.S. Isn't it also used in New York? Up there they

>> pronounce it "youse" as in "youse guys" are outta your turf. Come to

>> think of it I have never heard it used referring to females.

>> Seth Sklarey

>>

>

>As I recall, "youse" is also used in Chicago.

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



How true.

"Youse" is as common as dirt around here.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 08:57:31 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



The best I've seen in literature on this is Anne Rice's _Taltos_, p3,

with the character of Mary Jane: "I stood over there, 'cross the street,

and looked at your party?" Her sentences kept going up on the end, though

they weren't questions, as though she was always asking for a nod or a

word of agreement.

 Then, for the rest of the book, every once in a while you'll hit some

dialogue that is unattributed to a character, but since you see all of

the question marks on regular statements "We had bees, you know, on the

porch for honey? We could fish right off the back steps? We had fruit

trees all around the landing then, before the wisteria got them like a

giant boa constricter, you know, and blackberries?" I should have said

unattributed or not -- you always know when Mary Jane is talking.





On Sun, 22 Oct 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> I thought we were talking about using question intonation in statements --

> e.g., I went to the movies last nIGHT. I saw this great movIE. (caps=

> rising pitch).

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:23:48 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



I don't know the origin of the statement with question intonation, but I

think some people may be barking up the wrong trEE?



If it originated in the South, it is certainly no longer restricted to the

South. It's certainly heard here in Oregon in recent years, and I've always

associated it with California. I'm not sure why - maybe because it's often

accompanied by other Californianisms, though I wouldn't swear to

this. The person I hear using it most is a male friend who has lived all

his life in Oregon and has no associations with either California or the

South. I have no idea where he picked it up.



If it's associated with Irish and/or Scottish speech, where was it all

those years between the time of early Irish and Scottish immigration to

Appalachia and the last 2-5 years? I don't remember hearing it any

earlier than that - certainly not during my years in Chattanooga

(1970-76). Also, the high end-of-sentence pitch so characteristic of some

Irish and Scottish speakers seems to me to have a different intonation

pattern: rising, then slightly falling, rather than the simple rise of

question intonation. The Irish/Scottish "lilt" has always seemed to me

quite distinct from the question pattern, though admittedly this might be

merely because my native dialect is American.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:24:53 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



I noticed the same rising intonation for statements from several students

during their seminar paper presentations last spring (both male and female), so

I checked with a colleague who teaches several sections of public address, and

she reports that it is quite common among both sexes. She argues that it occurs

most frequently with students who are hesitant or lack confidence in their

presentation (or perhaps a signal of deference), but I suspect that this is the

effect rather than the cause.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:59:55 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Drawrings



Not all residents of greater Boston have lost this r. The only American

I've heard use "drawrings" was an architect who hailed from Rhode Island.

(I hope I'm not offending any Rhode Islanders. This guy, at least, was

not surprised to have me guess that he was from Boston, and considered

where he came from to be essentially part of the Boston area.)



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Sun, 22 Oct 1995, SETH SKLAREY wrote:



> New Yorkers have added R's that were lost by Bostonians.

>

> Seth Sklarey

>

>

> > My business partner is an art therapist; when she gets an art therapy

> >group together, she has us do "drawrings." The only other time I've heard

> >of this pronunciation(and she has other linguistic ideosyncrasies that the

> >locals here have a hard time understanding)is on a Saturday Night Live

> >sketch about a little British boy named Simon who "likes to do drawrings."

> >My business partner lived in NYC for the first forty-odd years of her life,

> >and has since lived in Seattle and several locations in Arizona before com-

> >ing to Vermont. Any idea if this is a regional idiosyncracy from anywhere,

> >or is it just her?

> >

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 13:15:57 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



> I noticed the same rising intonation for statements from several students

> during their seminar paper presentations last spring (both male and female), so

> I checked with a colleague who teaches several sections of public address, and

> she reports that it is quite common among both sexes. She argues that it occurs

> most frequently with students who are hesitant or lack confidence in their

> presentation (or perhaps a signal of deference), but I suspect that this is the

> effect rather than the cause.



i catch myself doing this while lecturing. now, this is a time when

i know what i'm doing and am confident. but i think the reason why i

do it is to try to keep peoples' attention.  the times i've caught

myself doing it, i've been lecturing here to (all female, in many

cases) undergraduates, who have no qualms about having their own

conversations while the lecture is going on. so i guess i'm trying

to grate on their nerves? or get them involved in what i'm saying?



the fact that it's associated with women's speech reminds me of a

couple of things i've recently been lecturing on (so i'll subject

you to them too):



women use "y'know" a lot more than men. (that is to say, american

women. "y'know" is here considered to be one of the most annoying

things that americans do in speech.) this would go with the

observation already made that the rising intonation is an attempt to

involve the audience in the spkr's statements by looking for (or

assuming) solidarity on the matter.



perhaps this is related to women's question-asking habits. women ask

a lot more questions than men (i think it was fishman's study that

showed three times as many). but a lot of that question-asking isn't

so much information-seeking as conversational-ball-rolling.

furthermore, in mixed-sex conversations, women _have_ to ask

questions, because otherwise their topics are not picked up. in

fishman's study of couples, virtually all mens' topic introductions

are successful, vs. 36% for women. _but_ when women introduce topics

with questions, their success rate goes up to 72%.



granted, this doesn't account for why people do whole monologues

"upspeaking" the end of every sentence, clause, and sometimes smaller

pieces. (e.g., "i was at the gap? at the mall?") but it does seem

to me to be a way of making sure that the audience is coming along

for the ride with you.



then again, since the rising intonation may be associated with the

end of a turn, and since women expect (friendly) interruption and

positive minimal responses and the like, perhaps this rising is

offering places for such responses.



most of the things i mention here are pretty related. sorry for the

stream-of-consciousness style. my self-editing skills are at an end-

of-the-day low.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 22 Oct 1995 23:10:37 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: ADS-L session at M/MLA



Dear ADS Members and Friends,



The ADS session of the M/MLA meets on Friday, November 3, from

12:30 to 2:00 PM in Pavilion G. I encourage anyone who is going

to the conference to attend the session. The panel participants,

Tim Frazer, Tom Murray, Charles Boberg, and William Labov, are

each presenting intriguing data and insights pertaining not only

to "Midland" dialect in particular, but also to questions about

changes at various levels of American English.



The American Name Society meets directly after the ADS session,

from 2:15 to 3:45 in Pavilion Suite 3.



Don Lance made the following suggestion to me, and I'd like to

propose it to the group, that we get together for a late

afternoon something, or for dinner. If you have a preference,

please contact me. I'll suggest a time and place at the end of

Friday's session. (Don actually suggested lunch or dinner, but

will y'all be there by, say, 10 am?)



Best,

Beth Simon, tin-eared ADS Midwest Regional Secretary

Assistant Professor, English and Linguistics

Indiana University - Purdue University at Fort Wayne

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana

219-424-8834



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:33:45 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



That was probably my str->shtr stuff, Larry, that I researched on

Linguist List of its participants, then posted it back there and here. I

can forward that posting to anyone that didn't see it and wants to. I

keep noticing it in more and more speakers/actors on tv and in real life.

I keep wondering if we're at the beginning of a sound change, or if this

will remain 'contained' in certain dialects. It's invisible to most people.



On Sun, 22 Oct 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> >Instead of: I forgot my straw. I've heard: I forgot my skraw.

> >also other words beginning in str substituting the skr; skreet, etc.

> >comments? Marla

>

>  So you're hearing [skr-] in these clusters? This seems to be related to

> a phenomenon I think we talked about here a year or so ago (or maybe it was on

> Linguist?) in which the [s] is palatalized, yielding something like 'shtreet'

> in the clusters you cite. This palatalization seems to be especially frequent

> among Long Islanders, particularly those with Italian surnames. Seriously.

> Does anyone on the list know anybody who discusses either this palatalization

> Marla's velarization in these str- initial clusters?  (At least the former

> development isn't too surprising, since the -tr- is or can be itself somewhat

> palatalized in many idiolects, including my own; but motivation isn't reality

> for most speakers.)

>

> Larry

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 15:37:13 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-L session at M/MLA



What city are you meeting in, Beth?



Bethany

<dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:01:38 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



It's more widespread even than that. I know a North Carolinian

who says "shtreet".



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR





On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Tony Vitale wrote:



> Larry:

>     This palatalization is not restricted to Long Islanders. It's very

> prevalent in the Boston area (even among non-Italians) where street ->

> shtreet.

>

>     \tony

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:04:20 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



And in parts of Arkansas, reduction takes place, as in /srImp/ [shrimp],

/sr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]b/ [shrub].



Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 16:07:23 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Valley Girl talk"



> Could this be the Valley Girl talk which originated in Southern California?

>

> Seth Sklarey

>



Doesn't all "Valley Girl talk" originate in the San Fernando Valley

(in Southern Calif.)?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:49:02 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Testosto-thoughts



My boyfriend and I are fond of using the prefix "testosto-"

with many words.

For example, we jokingly refer to grilling as a "testosto-job"

and to Guinness as a "testosto-drink."

Perhaps the male equivalent could be "Testosto-Americans."



Just a silly thought!



Kate





> Y'all seem to think that the beginning of this sentence is limited to

>the southern U.S. Isn't it also used in New York? Up there they

>pronounce it "youse" as in "youse guys" are outta your turf. Come to

>think of it I have never heard it used referring to females.

>

>The other night on TV a character evidently designed in the Mark Furman

>mold coined a new, obnoxious term. He said "I don't discriminate against

>Afro-Americans or gyno-Americans." I wonder what the term would be for men?

>Any ideas?

>

>

>

>Seth Sklarey

>Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

>Coconut Grove, FL

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 09:55:30 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Drawrings



> My business partner is an art therapist; when she gets an art therapy

>group together, she has us do "drawrings." The only other time I've heard

>of this pronunciation(and she has other linguistic ideosyncrasies that the

>locals here have a hard time understanding)is on a Saturday Night Live

>sketch about a little British boy named Simon who "likes to do drawrings."

>My business partner lived in NYC for the first forty-odd years of her life,

>and has since lived in Seattle and several locations in Arizona before com-

>ing to Vermont. Any idea if this is a regional idiosyncracy from anywhere,

>or is it just her?

>



Based on my extensive research (I dated an Englishman for 2 years)

I have concluded that Brits do use this pronunciation.

I also know several people from the New York area who use it, too.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Oct 1995 to 23 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 272 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. statements spoken as if it were a question (3)

 2. English-southern style

 3. skraw/skring (2)

 4. y'all are crazy

 5. LAGS query



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:32:39 -0400

From:  SETH SKLAREY <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



 Reading Lynne's comments below brought to mind another form of affirmation,

which

I have found increasingly annoying, ya know what I mean? It seems to be

most prevalent

among New Yorkers and Afro-Americans, you get my drift? I was wondering

where else it

is turning up and whether the mass media, TV & movies might be to blame, see

what

I'm saying?



Seth Sklarey

Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word

Coconut Grove, FL



>> I noticed the same rising intonation for statements from several students

>> during their seminar paper presentations last spring (both male and

female), so

>> I checked with a colleague who teaches several sections of public

address, and

>> she reports that it is quite common among both sexes. She argues that it

occurs

>> most frequently with students who are hesitant or lack confidence in their

>> presentation (or perhaps a signal of deference), but I suspect that this

is the

>> effect rather than the cause.

>

>i catch myself doing this while lecturing. now, this is a time when

>i know what i'm doing and am confident. but i think the reason why i

>do it is to try to keep peoples' attention.  the times i've caught

>myself doing it, i've been lecturing here to (all female, in many

>cases) undergraduates, who have no qualms about having their own

>conversations while the lecture is going on. so i guess i'm trying

>to grate on their nerves? or get them involved in what i'm saying?

>

>the fact that it's associated with women's speech reminds me of a

>couple of things i've recently been lecturing on (so i'll subject

>you to them too):

>

>women use "y'know" a lot more than men. (that is to say, american

>women. "y'know" is here considered to be one of the most annoying

>things that americans do in speech.) this would go with the

>observation already made that the rising intonation is an attempt to

>involve the audience in the spkr's statements by looking for (or

>assuming) solidarity on the matter.

>

>perhaps this is related to women's question-asking habits. women ask

>a lot more questions than men (i think it was fishman's study that

>showed three times as many). but a lot of that question-asking isn't

>so much information-seeking as conversational-ball-rolling.

>furthermore, in mixed-sex conversations, women _have_ to ask

>questions, because otherwise their topics are not picked up. in

>fishman's study of couples, virtually all mens' topic introductions

>are successful, vs. 36% for women. _but_ when women introduce topics

>with questions, their success rate goes up to 72%.

>

>granted, this doesn't account for why people do whole monologues

>"upspeaking" the end of every sentence, clause, and sometimes smaller

>pieces. (e.g., "i was at the gap? at the mall?") but it does seem

>to me to be a way of making sure that the audience is coming along

>for the ride with you.

>

>then again, since the rising intonation may be associated with the

>end of a turn, and since women expect (friendly) interruption and

>positive minimal responses and the like, perhaps this rising is

>offering places for such responses.

>

>most of the things i mention here are pretty related. sorry for the

>stream-of-consciousness style. my self-editing skills are at an end-

>of-the-day low.

>

>lynne

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

>M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

>Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

>University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

>Johannesburg 2050

>SOUTH AFRICA

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 00:01:30 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



I am very surprised that no one has mentioned this feature for Australia

or new Zealand during this discussion yet. _The Story of English_ gives

a brief blurb (OZ insecurity) for OZ. The Kiwis have been writing about

this for quite some time. The earlier reports from Down Under seem to

suggest, to me at least, that it may have been there 1st. (please note

that i did not say that it `originated' there, which would suggest that

it spread to other areas, e.g. the US. I don't think OZ/NZ have had that

much influence on US speech!)



 I have a number of articles on HRT in OZ/NZ, none of which I have at had at

the moment, but I could either peruse them and give a brief summary or could

 give references, if anyone is interested. BTW, other than with you,

Lynne, how prevalent is HRT in RSA?

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 Oct 1995 23:21:04 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: English-southern style



I've forwarded a bunch of the y'all discussion to my inlaws - she a native

of Oklahoma and he a native of Texas and later OK. My father-in-law

responded with the following and I thought I'd pass it along.   Rima

>

>Thanks for the info ya'll sent on southern words. I wish to add comments

>from this simple Tex/Ok person to your collection.

>

>Ya'll-Plural to shorten "all of you", "you all" or the yankee version of

>"youse guys". Also a familiarity word for "you". (Saves having to use 2

>words when

>one will cover both.

>

>Y'uns-Commonly used with younger persons as "you younguns" but also is a

>familiarity word used with more then one adult or to a mixed group.

> (Again a conservation of words).

>

>These two words are symptomatic of the characterization of southern persons as

>being persons of few words plus southern people typically speak more slowly so

>they have to find a way to combine words to keep up with the communicating

>speed of their yankee kinfolks.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 10:27:57 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



I'm from Michigan, and I say shtreet, shtring, etc. No one else in my

family does. I think it's just a lazy habit on my part; I didn't realize it

was so widespread.

Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz



>It's more widespread even than that. I know a North Carolinian

>who says "shtreet".

>

>Peter McGraw

>Linfield College

>McMinnville, OR

>

>

>On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Tony Vitale wrote:

>

>> Larry:

>>     This palatalization is not restricted to Long Islanders. It's very

>> prevalent in the Boston area (even among non-Italians) where street ->

>> shtreet.

>>

>>     \tony

>>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 09:59:28 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all are crazy



In the Ozarks one occasionally hears 'youens all', which would be equivalent

to 'y'all'. They also say 'all of youens'.

                     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 13:50:43 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:

><snip>

> i catch myself doing this while lecturing. now, this is a time when

> i know what i'm doing and am confident. but i think the reason why i

> do it is to try to keep peoples' attention.  the times i've caught

> myself doing it, i've been lecturing here to (all female, in many

> cases) undergraduates, who have no qualms about having their own

> conversations while the lecture is going on. so i guess i'm trying

> to grate on their nerves? or get them involved in what i'm saying?

<snip>>

>

<snip>>

> granted, this doesn't account for why people do whole monologues

> "upspeaking" the end of every sentence, clause, and sometimes smaller

> pieces. (e.g., "i was at the gap? at the mall?") but it does seem

> to me to be a way of making sure that the audience is coming along

> for the ride with you.

>

> then again, since the rising intonation may be associated with the

> end of a turn, and since women expect (friendly) interruption and

> positive minimal responses and the like, perhaps this rising is

> offering places for such responses.

>

> lynne

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

> Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

> University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

> Johannesburg 2050

> SOUTH AFRICA

>

I am so glad to see this response to the upspeak debate. My main

experience with upspeak took place in the classroom as well, but I was

the student. My teacher's use of that style intrigued me and had just the

effects that Lynne imagines in her class. I felt engaged by the upspeak,

as if the lecture were much more like a conversation than most lectures

and as if my teacher maintained constant care and attention to our needs

as listeners.



I don't like the idea that upspeak is related to women or Southerners (by

the way, I am a woman and a Southerner) because it attributes what seems

to me to be a useful and responsive style to more negative causes

(insecurity, even incompetence). I know that disliking a set of possible

causes is no valid reason for discounting them, but again, I'm really

glad to see (for the first time) another person's response to upspeak as

positive and not necessarily gender- or region-oriented.



Does anyone else either feel uncomfortable with the gender- and

region-oriented explanations or find the responsive speaker hypothesis to

be valid?



Lisa

Ohio University



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 20:10:21 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAGS query



Help please, I don't have the JENGL volumes at hand.

 In LAGS volume V, "on" is mapped for

 vowel shape. LAGS transcription is :



 on <aw/{aw}> [unrounded]

>

 I thought this meant "open o" since <aw> is the vowel in "bought"--but

 why does it say "unrounded" in brackets? Is this open o or no? or a low

 back unrounded vowel,m which doesn't seem likely? This is on P 314, vol 5.



 Thanks



 Tim Frazer

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 21:04:39 CDT

From:  mlbroom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUMAG.EDU

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



I think two different things are being talked about here. One is the

skreet pronunciation which I have heard in my elementary age black

students. And the other is the shtreet pronunciation with which I am

not familiar.



I have noticed a few people in southwestern Arkansas say Sreveport for

Shreveport when talking about the city in Louisiana. I thought that was just

my one neighbor but others have mentioned it too.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1995 to 24 Oct 1995

************************************************



Message 1:

From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Wed Oct 25 23:13 CDT 1995

Date:   Thu, 26 Oct 1995 00:01:26 -0400

From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1995 to 25 Oct 1995

To: Recipients of ADS-L digests <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>



There are 17 messages totalling 415 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. skraw/skring (2)

 2. "Valley Girl talk" (2)

 3. statements spoken as if it were a question

 4. upspeak (6)

 5. Big Dogs (2)

 6. [mIzrIz] update/big dog

 7. big dog

 8. ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1995 to 24 Oct 1995

 9. Please 'unsubscribe' me



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:47:34 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



My internet research showed that it has been prevalent in the English

spoken in Hawaii for a long time, and has been for also a long time one

of the hot topics in Accent Reduction courses in New Jersey.



On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



> It's more widespread even than that. I know a North Carolinian

> who says "shtreet".

>

> Peter McGraw

> Linfield College

> McMinnville, OR

>

>

> On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Tony Vitale wrote:

>

> > Larry:

> >     This palatalization is not restricted to Long Islanders. It's very

> > prevalent in the Boston area (even among non-Italians) where street ->

> > shtreet.

> >

> >     \tony

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 Oct 1995 22:50:47 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Valley Girl talk"



Re: same, I HIGHLY recommend the movie "Valley Girl" with Nicholas Cage

(the movie that put him on the map) and Deborah Foreman. It's some of the

purest Val-talk I've heard this side of early Woopi Goldberg sketches.



On Mon, 23 Oct 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> > Could this be the Valley Girl talk which originated in Southern California?

> >

> > Seth Sklarey

> >

>

> Doesn't all "Valley Girl talk" originate in the San Fernando Valley

> (in Southern Calif.)?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 05:56:19 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: statements spoken as if it were a question



> I don't like the idea that upspeak is related to women or Southerners (by

> the way, I am a woman and a Southerner) because it attributes what seems

> to me to be a useful and responsive style to more negative causes

> (insecurity, even incompetence). I know that disliking a set of possible

> causes is no valid reason for discounting them, but again, I'm really

> glad to see (for the first time) another person's response to upspeak as

> positive and not necessarily gender- or region-oriented.

>

> Does anyone else either feel uncomfortable with the gender- and

> region-oriented explanations or find the responsive speaker hypothesis to

> be valid?

>

> Lisa

> Ohio University





well, the thing is, the "responsive speaker" thing is going to be

linked to women because women tend to more actively give and look for

response to/from their co-conversers.



the problem is not attributing the style to a certain sex or region

but assigning value-laden descriptions or motivations to the style

(like insecurity or stupidity). but when you look at the styles

associated with different groups and how those styles are interpreted

within other groups with other norms for interaction, then you can

see where stereotypes and prejudices come from.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 07:31:26 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: skraw/skring



I'm surethat srimp (shrimp), sreveport (Shreveport), etc is a regional

feature -- subset of Southern. I think this item is covered in LAGS

but don't remember details and am not sufficiently motivated at the

moment to look into it. The shr/skr- may also be regional, overlapping

in some ways with shr/sr-. Both clusters seem to have language-development

implications ("Baby talk" residue), but where the usage is regional the

Baby talk matter is NOT causal. In my classes in both Texas and Missouri

I've had students who found shr- to be tongue-twisterish. And those of

you who are fans of "American Tongues" The Video will recall the humorous

segment when the makers of the video asked Southerners to say 'schlepp'.

And German palatalization fo /s/ in intitial clusters is not a causal

factor in this item.           DMLance, U of MO



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:47:06 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: upspeak



a lot of different things are being lumped together as "upspeak" in

this discussion--by southerners, valley girls, women generally, the

irish, scottish, australians, and in a post that beth simon just sent

me, old german american men. it also occurs to me that it's

something that kids do when they're excitedly telling a story--

upspeaking the ends of sentences until they get to the punchline

("and then the firetrucks came? and there was a firedog? and they

put the fire OUT!")



the whole phenomenon could also be linked to canadian "eh" and south

african "hey"--which are tagged onto the end of the sentence with

rising intonation. a sort of segmental version of upspeak.



but, i'm beginning to wonder--are these all the _same_ intonation

patterns? this question is pretty vague, and productively so:

- are they physically the same intonation patterns?

   (and are they really the same as questions?)

- are they the same in their meanings/functions?

- are they the same in their genesis?

  - is that genesis a matter of relation between the varieties

       or is it a cognitive universal-type thing?



that not everyone upspeaks doesn't mean that its interpretation is

not universal, just that some (sub)cultures need it more than others.

(just like some folks smile more than others.)



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 08:52:28 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak



>that not everyone upspeaks doesn't mean that its interpretation is

>not universal, just that some (sub)cultures need it more than others.

>(just like some folks smile more than others.)

>

>lynne



My impression of upspeak in Milledgeville is that it is used by people who

smile a lot. I associate the pattern with people who are trying to be

polite and helpful.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 07:59:23 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak



I want to clarify a couple of points from a post I sent privately to

Lynne. I reported to her an observation made to me by a resident of a

small town in WI that was primarily German settlement. My "informant"

while discussing "upspeak" noted that he had heard it all his life from

what he called "the men in front of the bank," retired and what he called

"old" and "tired" men who sat on the benches, talking to each other

and commenting on life and the twon. This person's descriptives were

"old" "male" "German" and "suffocated and hence willing to suffocate".



I then mentioned to Lynne that I had been wondering about German

sentence intonation in relation to this.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 10:11:35 EDT

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: upspeak



M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



>>>but, i'm beginning to wonder--are these all the _same_ intonation

patterns? this question is pretty vague, and productively so:

- are they physically the same intonation patterns?

   (and are they really the same as questions?)

- are they the same in their meanings/functions?

- are they the same in their genesis?

  - is that genesis a matter of relation between the varieties

       or is it a cognitive universal-type thing?<<<



Most of the "upspeak" that I hear seems to be more listing intonation than

question intonation. Her [M.L.M.'s] example:



>>>"and then the firetrucks came? and there was a firedog? and they

put the fire OUT!"<<<



seems to fit that.



In conversations, perhaps it is used to invite someone to continue

the list. But, of course, this is not much different from a question

except that a question expects an answer and listing expects a *continuation*

of the list or one more item to terminate it.



R. Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:29:05 -0400

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Big Dogs



Does anyone have any knowledge of the phrase "If you want to run with the

big dogs you gotta get off the porch"? It seems to me that

I had a high-school techer who used to say this in the 1950s--does anyone

remember it from then (or before)? Any print citations?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:17:47 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak



To substantiate Lynne's observation that a variety of phonetically, phono-

logically, semantically and pragmatically distinct patterns are being

amalgamated here, I refer again (and this time in a bibliographically correct

manner) to:



  Hirschberg, Julia and Gregory Ward. 1995. The Interpretation of the

  High-Rise Question Contour in English. Journal of Pragmatics 24:407-412.



     LH



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 12:53:33 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: Big Dogs



I'm familiar with "big dogs" meaning "big boys" but not with the phrase you

cite about getting "off the porch." I seem to remember older friends of

mine telling me "You're running with the big dogs now." I grew up in

north and central Mississippi.

Greg Pulliam



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 14:03:58 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: [mIzrIz] update/big dog



Students in my linguistics class report the use of [mIzrIz] by two

different groups. A black female in her late teens or early 20s reports

that it is used by "old black ladies in Macon like my mother." A white

student in her late 20s or early 30s reports that everybody (i. e. white)

says it in Lumberton, "where I'm from."



*******************************



Speaking of "big dogs"--a couple of years ago there was a public scandal

about UGA football players and grades in developmental studies. A popular

bumper sticker that functioned as a take-off of the familiar UGA "Let the

big dog run" read "Let the big dog read."



Then, of course, there is the line from the song (is it called "Matchbox

Blues"?):



"Let me be your little dog till your big dog comes."



Ringo sang this for the Beatles. I don't remember the rhyme tag at the end

of the repetition. The line bespeaks a certain hesitation on the part of a

male to make a commitment.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 13:05:49 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Valley Girl talk"



Isn't there some disagreement about "Valley Speak" or "Valley Girl Talk"?

Frank Zappa's record (1980 or so) provided the name for what is, now at

least, a nationwide sort of teen dialect? (question intonation!!) My 13

year old daughter heard my Zappa record and said that was how some of the girls

in her 8th grade class talk here in Chicago. Zappa called it "Valley Girl"

talk, but he was (God rest his soul) a resident of the San Fernando Valley

and his daughter was a teenager at the ime he wrote the song and invited her

to "babble" (his word, not mine) on tape in her friends' dialect which he

found amusing. I don't think this is enough evidence on which to base a

claim of origin for val-speak. It's possible that had Zappa lived in

Winnetka at the time, the song and the speak might have been called

"Winnetka Girl", isn't it? Is there evidence out there for the origin of

valspeak that's more substantial?

Greg Pulliam



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 11:30:01 -0700

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak



If Germans use "upspeak" intonation, it's either idiolectal or as new as

it is in AE. Standard German intonation uses that pattern only for

questions. If there's a dialect which uses it in statements, I'm unaware

of it. I don't recall hearing it anywhere but in questions from my

colleagues at the German Information Center in New York, where I worked

for six years in the mid- to late 80s, or from the Dane County, Wisconsin,

Germans who served as informants for my dissertation in the late 60s.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR





On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



> I want to clarify a couple of points from a post I sent privately to

> Lynne. I reported to her an observation made to me by a resident of a

> small town in WI that was primarily German settlement. My "informant"

> while discussing "upspeak" noted that he had heard it all his life from

> what he called "the men in front of the bank," retired and what he called

> "old" and "tired" men who sat on the benches, talking to each other

> and commenting on life and the twon. This person's descriptives were

> "old" "male" "German" and "suffocated and hence willing to suffocate".

>

> I then mentioned to Lynne that I had been wondering about German

> sentence intonation in relation to this.

>

> beth simon

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 18:50:54 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: big dog



A popular T-shirt among dirt-track auto racing fans around the Midwest

reads: "If you can't run with the big dogs, then stay on the porch."

For what it's worth.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 19:49:39 -0400

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1995 to 24 Oct 1995



Regarding the upspeak usage. I am not sure that this qualifies, but I live in

rural mid-Michigan and hear a good deal of people (primarily males 40+old)

start of sentences in this manner. "Like I saw, that's always gonna be the

case?" Or any similar usage. They almost always upspeak the end of the

sentence so it invariably sounds as though they are not sure about their

information. It is always in a relaxed conversation; hardly ever in formal

speak.



Has anyone else ever heard of this "Like I say" intro? Especially in

conjunction with the upspeak structure.



I have relations in northern Minn. and they use upspeak. My brother who moved

up there some 15 years ago has adopted this mode too.



Asher



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 Oct 1995 21:36:29 -0400

From:  David <stick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INFI.NET>

Subject: Please 'unsubscribe' me



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please unsubscribe stick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]infi.net from your mailing list. THanks in advance.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1995 to 25 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 4 messages totalling 88 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. "upspeak"

 2. big dog (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Oct 1995 09:15:00 -0700

From:  "Sheridan, Kathleen" <K.SHERIDAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CGNET.COM>

Subject: Re: "upspeak"



I picked up this trait while living in Georgia. I don't remember ever

noticing it in California or Utah. I generally use it as a way of making sure

my listener is following what I'm saying.



I was speaking once with a Filipino colleague and used upspeak. He pegged me

immediately as having lived in the South.



* * * * * * * * * *

Kathleen Sheridan

k.sheridan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgnet.com          Phone: 31 (70) 349-6107

International Service for National   Fax:  31 (70) 381-9677

 Agricultural Research (ISNAR)

The Hague, The Netherlands

* * * * * * * * * *



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Oct 1995 08:17:24 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: big dog



There is a related maxim that I have seen hand-painted (poorly) on a wooden

plaque in the club house of a rural golf course:



If you want to soar with the eagles in the morning, you can't stay out with

the turkeys all night.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Oct 1995 11:26:27 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: big dog



On Thu, 26 Oct 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> There is a related maxim that I have seen hand-painted (poorly) on a wooden

> plaque in the club house of a rural golf course:

>

> If you want to soar with the eagles in the morning, you can't stay out with

> the turkeys all night.





My father says (annoyingly) "If you want to fly with the eagles you can't

hoot with the owls."

But I do anyway.



kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 Oct 1995 13:37:24 -0400

From:  Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: big dog



On Thu, 26 Oct 1995, Katherine Catmull wrote:



> My father says (annoyingly) "If you want to fly with the eagles you can't

> hoot with the owls."

> But I do anyway.

>

> kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

>

In a similar and (sorry) profane vein, I once heard a friend use this

little slogan, "You've got to learn how to fly if you want to f*** with

the eagles." That really appealed to my 19-year-old aesthetic in the

summer of 1978, just right for the intramural field. Oh, and the Eagles

were still a pretty big act. Don't think there's an important

connection, but I wanna grab all the loose ends.



Bob Haas

University of North Carolina at Greensboro

rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1995 to 26 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 369 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. upspeak in German (4)

 2. folk/folklore (8)

 3. ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me" (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 10:50:37 +0000

From:  Jenny Becker <beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OMRI.CZ>

Subject: Re: upspeak in German



While I've never heard "upspeak" in standard German, there is at least one

dialect (Schwabisch) in which people tend to put the word "oder" (or), with

an upward intonation, at the end of statements - sort of the equivalent of

saying "isn't that right?" after a sentence. I knew one guy when I studied

in Germany who used it at the end of almost every sentence - much to the

amusement of Germans from other regions.



Jenny Becker

beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz





>If Germans use "upspeak" intonation, it's either idiolectal or as new as

>it is in AE. Standard German intonation uses that pattern only for

>questions. If there's a dialect which uses it in statements, I'm unaware

>of it. I don't recall hearing it anywhere but in questions from my

>colleagues at the German Information Center in New York, where I worked

>for six years in the mid- to late 80s, or from the Dane County, Wisconsin,

>Germans who served as informants for my dissertation in the late 60s.

>

>Peter McGraw

>Linfield College

>McMinnville, OR

>

>

>On Wed, 25 Oct 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:

>

>> I want to clarify a couple of points from a post I sent privately to

>> Lynne. I reported to her an observation made to me by a resident of a

>> small town in WI that was primarily German settlement. My "informant"

>> while discussing "upspeak" noted that he had heard it all his life from

>> what he called "the men in front of the bank," retired and what he called

>> "old" and "tired" men who sat on the benches, talking to each other

>> and commenting on life and the twon. This person's descriptives were

>> "old" "male" "German" and "suffocated and hence willing to suffocate".

>>

>> I then mentioned to Lynne that I had been wondering about German

>> sentence intonation in relation to this.

>>

>> beth simon

>>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 07:24:20 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak in German



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LANCE>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



nu?   The description of the Swobe who ended sentences with "oder?"--probably

a variant on "Nicht wahr?"--reminds me of the similar Yinglish use of "nu?"



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

    David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

        "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:21:07 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: folk/folklore



An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

"folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 07:36:09 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



> An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

> no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

> this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

> got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

> "folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.



Are you sure you and your student aren't hearing the /l/ in "lore" rather

than in "folk"? I'm sitting here saying "folk," "folklore," "folkdance"

over and over (obviously not the best way to test these things) and can't

hear any /l/ in any of the folks.



Why would "folklore" be more reading-influenced that other "folks"? If

the first l in "folklore" really is being pronounced, could it be in

anticipation of the second l?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:46:29 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



>> An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

>> no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

>> this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

>> got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

>> "folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.

>

>Are you sure you and your student aren't hearing the /l/ in "lore" rather

>than in "folk"? I'm sitting here saying "folk," "folklore," "folkdance"

>over and over (obviously not the best way to test these things) and can't

>hear any /l/ in any of the folks.

>

>Why would "folklore" be more reading-influenced that other "folks"? If

>the first l in "folklore" really is being pronounced, could it be in

>anticipation of the second l?

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



I say the /l/ in "folkdance" too. "Folks" (as oppposed to "folk") is a

word I use a lot as part of my basic vocabulary for kinship. It means

'parents' to me (i. e., "Your folks" = "your parents").







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:03:33 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Like Natalie, I don't pronounce the first syllable of 'folklore' differently

from the way I pronounce 'folk' (and I also wondered whether there might be

some anticipation of/assimilation to the L of the next syllable, but from what

Wayne says that's not the case for him, given the way the L of folk reappears

in other compounds). The [fok] pronunciation I have in all of those is clearly

a lexical and not just a low-level phonetic matter, since I standardly refer to

the cars as VoLkswagens and not [vok]swagens (or not necessarily, anyway: I

imagine the L might indeed disappear in fast speech, but the L of 'folk',

'folklore' doesn't appear now matter how much I slow down. I have a feeling

there's also an L in Folkestone, if I ever had the occasion to say it.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 11:21:46 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Dear ADS Folks ([fowks]:



Let's do phonology (rather than suspicions of spelling pronunciations on this).



In the item 'folk,' the entire coda is the cluster 'lk.' Clusters in codas

are unseemly and can be reduced in lots of ways. Since the 'l' is already a

candidate for vocalizing, it's not a big trick for it to 'disappear' into

the preceding vowel.



In 'folklore,' however, it is possible to reanalyze the final cluster of

'folk,' assigning the final 'k' to the onset of 'lore' (since the onset

cluster 'kl' is licensed in English). The result of the reanalysis is 'fol

- klore,' in which the new noncluster coda of the first element (simply

'l') has a better chance of surviving, although, as is well known, there

are many dialects (mine included) in which even a single 'l' in a coda will

be almost completely vocalized.



In my own use, it is clear that I have a initial elements 'fo' (with no

'l') and a second ''klore,' with the 'k' reassigned to onset in the second

element. Alas, as you can see, since I am a Louisvillian, this reassignment

does nothing to save my 'l' from complete vocalization.



I guess this is why my wife (a funny-taking Milwaukeean) always asks me why

I am barking when I say 'wolf' (WOOWF WOOWF).



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>







>>> An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

>>> no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

>>> this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

>>> got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

>>> "folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.

>>

>>Are you sure you and your student aren't hearing the /l/ in "lore" rather

>>than in "folk"? I'm sitting here saying "folk," "folklore," "folkdance"

>>over and over (obviously not the best way to test these things) and can't

>>hear any /l/ in any of the folks.

>>

>>Why would "folklore" be more reading-influenced that other "folks"? If

>>the first l in "folklore" really is being pronounced, could it be in

>>anticipation of the second l?

>>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

>I say the /l/ in "folkdance" too. "Folks" (as oppposed to "folk") is a

>word I use a lot as part of my basic vocabulary for kinship. It means

>'parents' to me (i. e., "Your folks" = "your parents").

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 10:40:25 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing the "l" in all of them.

Folk, folklore, folkdance, etc.



Just an observation.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 10:43:32 -0500

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak in German



>While I've never heard "upspeak" in standard German, there is at least one

>dialect (Schwabisch) in which people tend to put the word "oder" (or), with

>an upward intonation, at the end of statements - sort of the equivalent of

>saying "isn't that right?" after a sentence. I knew one guy when I studied

>in Germany who used it at the end of almost every sentence - much to the

>amusement of Germans from other regions.

>

>Jenny Becker

>beckerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]omri.cz





That reminds me of my struggle to drop the same "oder" from my speech

when I returned from Germany a few years back.

After spending so long speaking German, I couldn't find a replacement

for "oder" so, without thinking, I'd use "or."

"This is a nice party, or?"

Got a lot of funny looks from my friends and family.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:11:50 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Wayne,

What do you mean `folk' has no /l/? Several years ago I was in a class

in which the prof had us underline all the resonants in a certain

paragraph ( as we speak them, not the letters). He was shocked to learn

that every student, about 2 dozen, in the class has /l/ in `folk.'

Fritz Juengling, who also has /l/ in `calm', `psalm', `palm' `almond'



On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

> no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

> this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

> got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

> "folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.

>

>

> Wayne Glowka

> Professor of English

> Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

> Georgia College

> Milledgeville, GA 31061

> 912-453-4222

> wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 12:53:27 EDT

From:  mai <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak in German



On Fri, 27 Oct 1995 10:43:32 -0500 Kathleen M. O'Neill said:

>>While I've never heard "upspeak" in standard German, there is at least one

>>dialect (Schwabisch) in which people tend to put the word "oder" (or), with

>>an upward intonation, at the end of statements - sort of the equivalent of

>>saying "isn't that right?" after a sentence. I knew one guy when I studied

>>in Germany who used it at the end of almost every sentence - much to the

>>amusement of Germans from other regions.





While living in Heidelberg, my Landlady Frau Gessner used to say "gel'?"

in somewhat the same manner, with a rising tone. It meant about the same as

"nicht wahr, nicht, nitt" etc. She used it quite frequently.



Mark Ingram

maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 21:18:10 -0400

From:  Elaine Green <elaineg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:



> Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing the "l" in all of them.

> Folk, folklore, folkdance, etc.





I also pronounce the "l" in all three.



Elaine Green

University of Georgia



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 Oct 1995 22:08:27 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 23:07:19 -0400 (EDT)

From: Andrew Steinberg <prisoner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]infinet.com>

To: Stumpers <stumpers-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"





The term "bite me" has shown up in popular culture with frightening

regularity. Does anyone have a citation for first usage in print?







|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

| We are all just prisoners here /                |

| Of our own device              "Hotel California" |

|                                 |

| Andrew Steinberg - Librarian                  |

| Pickaway Correctional Institution        Orient, Ohio  |

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Oct 1995 to 27 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 15 messages totalling 398 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. folk/folklore (2)

 2. ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me" (9)

 3. New York system

 4. Bounced Mail

 5. "downspeak" (!)

 6. Bite me



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 09:27:57 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



My attempt to apply phonological principles to this earlier would, of

course, not apply to people who have an 'l' in all words. (In the spirit of

modern linguistics, they are not 'interesting.' OUCH!)



What I failed to observe before were all the possibilities:



1) Has all 'l' (not interesting)

2) Has no 'l' except in 'folklore' (see my earlier explanation)

3) Has no 'l' in 'folk' but has it everywhere else (e.g., in 'folklore'

'folkdance,' etc...)

4) Has no 'l' anywhere (me [and, I suspect, lots like me], also not interesting)



It is the third possibility I did not address.



I still believe my syllable-reassignment rule will work for Type 2

speakers, but why do 3) speakers exist?



First, it is well-known that polysyllabic versus monosyllabic words will

have an effect of phonetic processes. For example, in the Northern Cities

Shift, the raising of tense (peripheral) low-front vowels is retarded by

extra syllables. For example, a speaker who might often raise the vowel in

'tack' might much less frequently raise it in 'tactical.' Perhaps that same

process is at work here. Perhaps related to this is the fact that the

'folk' part of such forms as 'folkdance' will receive (locally) prominent

stress in compounds (FOLKdance). In fact, one might contrast these

compounds (which I think people had in mind when they were reporting this

phenomenon) with attributive (i.e., folk DANCE) patterns and see if they

observe the same phenomenon. If that is so, extra syllables play an

important role only in the resulting locally contrasting stress.



Second, and I have only some background memory of this, I think I recall

that the distribution of 'dark;' and 'light' 'l' is different in different

parts of the US South, but I cannot believe that this context (after /ow/)

would allow that contrast.



Third, the status of the 'l' residue (if any) may be fooling even some

careful self-reporters. In my 'folk' there is no 'residue' of 'l.' Although

I have no 'foke' word, I do have a completely homophonic 'Polk' and 'poke.'

I do not, however, have homophonic 'golf' and 'Goff' (or 'palm' and 'pom'

[as in 'pom-pom']). Another issue, is therefore, whether 'l' is 'gone'

(with no 'residue' in the preceding vowel, which can show up as lengthening

and dipthongization [including rounding in appropriate vowels, as in my

'golf' -- [gawf] not [gaf]). In some cases (certainly where I grew up in

Louisville), this 'residue' in some words can be extremely diagnostic

(socially). For example, those with homophonic 'help' and 'hep,' were

hicks; those who had a little up-back glide and rounding after 'e' (but no

'l' "contact") were thought much better of. (Those of us with this

miniature distinction thought we 'pronounced our 'l.' Imagine our surprise

when we found out later, after contact with those farther North, that we

were hicks too.)



More than I meant to write. I'll get the 'l' out of here. I just thought I

would expand my imaginings to take care of the rest of you.



Dennis (always a dull [fowk]) Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>







>On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

>> Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing the "l" in all of them.

>> Folk, folklore, folkdance, etc.

>

>

>I also pronounce the "l" in all three.

>

>Elaine Green

>University of Georgia



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 10:07:08 -0400

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



Lighter's Historical Dictionary of Am Slang gives 1977 for "bite the big one"

but nothing for the related "bite me."



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 11:05:17 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: New York system



Does anyone know the term "New York system" to refer to a hotdog

(frankfurter) served with a special kind of sauce, or to the kind of

restaurant that serves them? We have three citations, all from Rhode

Island, but none has a very satisfying explanation. Any help would be

appreciated.



Thanks--

Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:17:12 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:46:31 -0400

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACPUB.DUKE.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>9340 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ----------- Message in error (43 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:46:44 -0400 (EDT)

> From: Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu>

> Subject: Re: folk/folklore

>

> I never noticed this in my ownspeech--when I try; to do it ilt seems like

> akind of anticipatory assimilation tothe /l/ of -LORE.

>

> On Fri, 27 Oct 1995,

> Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

> > Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 08:21:07 -0400

> > From: Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

> > Subject: folk/folklore

> >

> > An astute sophomore in my linguistics class yesterday asked why "folk" has

> > no /l/ but why the same element in "folklore" does. I had never noticed

> > this difference in my own pronunciation before, but I maintain it. Anybody

> > got a good explanation? My only guess is that "folklore" with an /l/ in

> > "folk" is a reading-influenced pronunciation.

> >

> >

> > Wayne Glowka

> > Professor of English

> > Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

> > Georgia College

> > Milledgeville, GA 31061

> > 912-453-4222

> > wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

> >



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 13:22:04 -0500

From:  Alan R Slotkin <ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



>

> Lighter's Historical Dictionary of Am Slang gives 1977 for "bite the big one"

> but nothing for the related "bite me."



However, I remember hearing/using this in the late 50s in Miami, FL.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan R. Slotkin

Professor of English

Box 5053

Tennessee Technological University

Cookeville, TN 38505



Phone: 615-372-3262

FAX: 615-372-6142

e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu

-----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 12:41:55 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: "downspeak" (!)



This probably isn't an actual concept yet, but has anyone else

encountered this situation? My mom does it (from Ozarks in Arkansas), and

it drives me nuts when I'm speaking to her on the phone.



She'll say something then say ", tuh ..." I.e., t+schwa while trailing

off. It's like a weird signalling for the other person to speak, but it

SUGGESTS that she may have something else to say. The "word" I think is

approximated is "to", which suggests that there might be some kind of

causal comment to follow. I.e., He did it, to ... (show his manliness?).

But I don't think that really characterizes it either.



It's weird. Anyone else know this one?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 15:56:32 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



Not only do I NOT remember "bite me," I have not the slightest idea

what it means. Can someonoe enlighten me?



Thanks,

Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 13:32:09 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



I'm not sure anybody's ever put it this way before, but if this is a

classic connundrum of "Is this a [true] dialect pronunciation or [merely]

the 'error' of spelling pronunciation?", there seems to be another

question lurking underneath: Can we as a literate society productively

consider "spelling pronunciation" as a legitimate dialect of English?



On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Elaine Green wrote:



> On Fri, 27 Oct 1995, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote:

>

> > Funny thing is, I'm pretty sure I'm pronouncing the "l" in all of them.

> > Folk, folklore, folkdance, etc.

>

>

> I also pronounce the "l" in all three.

>

> Elaine Green

> University of Georgia

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 17:30:54 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Not only do I NOT remember "bite me," I have not the slightest idea

> what it means. Can someonoe enlighten me?

>



Well, "bite me" is a slang insult and it may derive from "eat me" as an

insult with sexual connotations. I have heard "the youth of America"

(everyone born after 1970) use this expression where I am, and I may have

even used the expression myself.



The expression is not simply an insult, but in the course of turn-taking

it works as a response to something uttered by the now-addressee with

which the speaker does not agree and for which the speaker can frame no

better response (Try it! It works.) I do not know if whether the meaning

is semantically recoverable, in terms of an order being given to bite

someone for some reason.



Terry Irons







(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 14:36:58 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



Uh... invitation to fellate?



On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Not only do I NOT remember "bite me," I have not the slightest idea

> what it means. Can someonoe enlighten me?

>

> Thanks,

> Bethany

> <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 14:53:39 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



This is very interesting, in a weird sort of way. I remember the retort,

"Bite me!" from the late 50s/early 60s -- actually in a teenage context

in an Assemblies of G*d Church. As I reflect on it, it was an only

slightly-disguised homosexual reference in the way it was used. My

reference is Wilmington CA, a port suburb of Los Angeles.



On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Alan R Slotkin wrote:



> >

> > Lighter's Historical Dictionary of Am Slang gives 1977 for "bite the big one"

> > but nothing for the related "bite me."

>

> However, I remember hearing/using this in the late 50s in Miami, FL.

>

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Alan R. Slotkin

> Professor of English

> Box 5053

> Tennessee Technological University

> Cookeville, TN 38505

>

> Phone: 615-372-3262

> FAX: 615-372-6142

> e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 17:57:37 -0400

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



My intuition is that "bite me" is relatively new--within the last 20

years or so--and I guess it comes from "bite my ass," in insulting retort

related to "kiss my ass" and which is surely much older.



"Bite me"thus strikes me as a kind of politer form of "kiss my ass."



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 15:16:03 -0700

From:  Dan Moonhawk Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



Oops. Perhaps it's restricted to male-talk, though I never understood why

someone would urge anyone to do such.



On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Not only do I NOT remember "bite me," I have not the slightest idea

> what it means. Can someonoe enlighten me?

>

> Thanks,

> Bethany

> <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 18:33:47 -0400

From:  Seth Sklarey <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Bite me



Sorry to inform you that it dates from the late 50's (So. Fla.)>

and means "suck my richard!<abbrev>," also used as "eat me!"

used as an insult from one heterosexual male to another

usually to mean "you are wrong" or "I don't accept that" and

"that's final," end of conversation, or "what you said is stupid."

 Evolved into "bite this"

while grabbing crotch with one or both hands. Now quite common

even on TV. See N.Y.P.D. Blues Detective Sipowitz (Dennis

Franz) who uses it frequently, or Bud Bundy on Married With

Children.



our intuition fell a bit (or a bite) short.



Ron Butters wrote:





>>My intuition is that "bite me" is relatively new--within the last 20

>>years or so--and I guess it comes from "bite my ass," in insulting retort

>>related to "kiss my ass" and which is surely much older.

>>

>>"Bite me"thus strikes me as a kind of politer form of "kiss my ass."

>>

>>

>

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 Oct 1995 16:34:33 -0700

From:  Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



This is familiar from my early teens 1962-63 in Indiana (Indianapolis),

serving as "drop dead" or "kiss my ass." It has been eerie to hear my 13

yo son use it here in Seattle.

Gail



______________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>       (206) 685-2384

English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330

______________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1995 to 28 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 8 messages totalling 139 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. upspeak

 2. folk/folklore (3)

 3. ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me" (3)

 4. Bite Me



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 00:19:59 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: upspeak



Out of the blue, a colleague who is a Cajun asked me whether there had

been much research on intonational patterns like what the Cajuns do.

He said that it is common for them to use a rising intonation on

statements to indicate "I know you don't believe this, but it's really

true." He associated the pattern with a kind on negotiation of credibility,

with the "upspeaker" indicating confidence rather than lack thereof.

I had no reason to doubt his analysis in the slightest. He has recently

been to the Amer Folklore Soc meeting in Lafayette and had visited his

relatives, some of the elders with only limited fluency in English. I've

noticed this intonation in his speech. but it's not the same as what I

heard in Georgia the last time I was there. M. Lynne Murphy was on target

in pointing out that posters are lumping several phenomena together perhaps.

               DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 00:58:27 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



I don't think the -lkl- in 'folklore' is a result of reading awareness.

I say -lkl in 'folklore' but not in 'folk' and 'folky'. Not always,

however. Maybe the syllable boundaries in the primary-secondary stress

environment plays a role.



DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 01:14:46 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



I recall "Bite my ass" in teenage male speech from the 1940s and 1950s

in South Texas. Could have connections to North Texas or Arkansas. It

could be a way of "telling off" someone who had done something mildly

or greatly offinsive to the prospective "bitee." Though salatious to a

degree, I don't recall it being fellatious. One could also say "Well,

bite my ass" to indicate low credibility upon hearing something someone

said. Or one could say it upon hitting one's thumb instead of a nail.

                               DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 15:35:14 -0500

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



 From David Letterman's Top Ten things that sound sexy when Barry White

says them:

 6. "Bite Me!"



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:01:56 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



 Can we as a literate society productively

>consider "spelling pronunciation" as a legitimate dialect of English?

>

Seems to me that English, with all its borrowings - spelling and all -

could get truly ridiculous if all "spelling pronunciations" became accepted

as a legitimate dialect. I think of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" where the

French commander calls out to the "English /kuhnigits/."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 14:16:06 -0800

From:  Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



Yes, but Dave Letterman is from the very same high school I went to in

Indianapolis, three years ahead.

Cheers,

Gail



______________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>       (206) 685-2384

English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330

______________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 22:17:11 -0500

From:  Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BCFREENET.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



On Sun, 29 Oct 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:



> Can we as a literate society productively

> >consider "spelling pronunciation" as a legitimate dialect of English?

> >

> Seems to me that English, with all its borrowings - spelling and all -

> could get truly ridiculous if all "spelling pronunciations" became accepted

> as a legitimate dialect. I think of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" where the

> French commander calls out to the "English /kuhnigits/."

>

...pronouncing the word exactly as a native speaker of Middle English

would have.

*******************************************************************************

                 __ __

                 | | | |

                 | | | |

              ______| | | |______

             (________) (________)

               COLOR ME ORANGE

                R. D. Swets

          Home: 305-782-4582, FAX: 305-782-4582

    Zion Lutheran Christian School: 305-421-3146, FAX: 305-421-4250

    Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: 305-356-4635, FAX: 305-356-4676

           bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 29 Oct 1995 23:19:27 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Bite Me



I want to thank my colleagues for their many, detailed, and occasionally

graphic explanations of the meaning of "Bite me."



My friends on NYPDB have moved beyond the gyrations and language I last

saw when I stopped watching the show over a year ago.



Time does move on!



Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1995 to 29 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 17 messages totalling 418 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me" (2)

 2. folk/folklore (10)

 3. ?Earliest Citation o

 4. BITE ME

 5. Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:45:49 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



>I recall "Bite my ass" in teenage male speech from the 1940s and 1950s

>in South Texas. Could have connections to North Texas or Arkansas. It

>could be a way of "telling off" someone who had done something mildly

>or greatly offinsive to the prospective "bitee." Though salatious to a

>degree, I don't recall it being fellatious. One could also say "Well,

>bite my ass" to indicate low credibility upon hearing something someone

>said. Or one could say it upon hitting one's thumb instead of a nail.

>                               DMLance



Somehow it scares me to think that "bite me" is "fellatious" (is this your

coinage, Don?). I also thought it meant "bite my ass"--a possibly painful

but less seriously damaging kind of bite, I imagine.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:16:26 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Unsure now of what I say in these words, I read all seventeen pages of this

exchange to my linguistics class this morning. Everyone got a big kick out

of Dennis' dissertation on phonology.



My astute student (the one who asked the question) wanted me to reply to

Dennis' systematic phonology. She says that systematic phonology does not

explain why she pronounces the words differently. She asks, "Don't these

people ever think that you learn words from other people? You learn what

you hear. I heard "folks" [foks] and learned it that way. I heard

somebody else say [folkd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ns] and [folklor]. That's why I say these words

differently."



I tend to agree, fan of things like sound laws though I am. I learned

[foks] from other [foks]; I learned [folkd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ns] and [folklore] from people

who did not do these things but who had some kind of tourist or academic or

preservationist interest in these things. People who are genuine

(unconscious) folkdancers do not say things like "Why don't y'all come over

and folkdance with us tonight? We'll spend some time sharing some

folklore. We might even kill a pig and salt it up for the winter in the

ways of the folk."



The point, I guess, is that sound laws may not be consistent when borrowing

from other dialects (or languages) occurs.



With an extended audience,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 14:37:32 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



What fun to hear that some students got a kick out of (rather than from)

phonology for a change.



But, to the point. No, us people (whoever we are, sounds like maybe we are

the evil scientists) think that folk learn a lot of words as words

(regardless of 'laws'). I am, for example, an 'aw' (as in 'caught')

pronouncer of most 'o' words before 'g' ('hog,' 'log,' 'dog,' 'frog,'

etc...), but a little introspection will show me that I have a bunch of

exceptions ('cog,' 'togs,' 'bog'). In every case, the non-'aw'

pronunciations are later-learned.



I meant to suggest that word-level analyses may often mask a deeper rule;

when the words are th only way to go, have at them.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>







>Unsure now of what I say in these words, I read all seventeen pages of this

>exchange to my linguistics class this morning. Everyone got a big kick out

>of Dennis' dissertation on phonology.

>

>My astute student (the one who asked the question) wanted me to reply to

>Dennis' systematic phonology. She says that systematic phonology does not

>explain why she pronounces the words differently. She asks, "Don't these

>people ever think that you learn words from other people? You learn what

>you hear. I heard "folks" [foks] and learned it that way. I heard

>somebody else say [folkd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ns] and [folklor]. That's why I say these words

>differently."

>

>I tend to agree, fan of things like sound laws though I am. I learned

>[foks] from other [foks]; I learned [folkd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ns] and [folklore] from people

>who did not do these things but who had some kind of tourist or academic or

>preservationist interest in these things. People who are genuine

>(unconscious) folkdancers do not say things like "Why don't y'all come over

>and folkdance with us tonight? We'll spend some time sharing some

>folklore. We might even kill a pig and salt it up for the winter in the

>ways of the folk."

>

>The point, I guess, is that sound laws may not be consistent when borrowing

>from other dialects (or languages) occurs.

>

>With an extended audience,

>

>

>Wayne Glowka

>Professor of English

>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>Georgia College

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912-453-4222

>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:16:57 -0800

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation of "Bite Me"



I certainly remember using the phrase in high school in the late 1960's

in Portland (OR).

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Gail Stygall wrote:



> This is familiar from my early teens 1962-63 in Indiana (Indianapolis),

> serving as "drop dead" or "kiss my ass." It has been eerie to hear my 13

> yo son use it here in Seattle.

> Gail

>

> ______________________________________________________________________________

> Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>       (206) 685-2384

> English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330

> ______________________________________________________________________________

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:06:03 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



This has been an amazing thread. I would have guessed that it is not

even possible for speakers of English to pronounce the /l/ in words

like 'folklore.' I am relatively certain that I do not pronounce the

/l/ in any 'lk' words.



Bethany Dumas

<dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:12:57 EST

From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation o



I think the *Bite me!* business is just about played out, but I wanted to ask

if there was any particular reason why the original request was for a printed

citation--or the date when the expression was first in print. Few of the

responses actually gave a print date and the earliest recollections are about

30 years before the 1977 date given in Lighter. Does the person who began this

thread want to comment on the need for an in-print date?



Incidentally, I first heard it in high school, 1954-1957, and never knew

exactly what it meant, if indeed the guys who used it knew themselves.



R. Spears



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:43:24 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



> like 'folklore.' I am relatively certain that I do not pronounce the

> /l/ in any 'lk' words.



Not even "milk"?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:55:54 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Ah, you got me, Natalie. Yes, I think I pronounce the /l/ in 'milk.'

Any others, I wonder?



Bethany

<dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:01:19 -0700

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



>Ah, you got me, Natalie. Yes, I think I pronounce the /l/ in 'milk.'

>Any others, I wonder?

>

>Bethany

><dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



How about silk, sulk, bulk, hulk, and even ilk (and probably several others)?

I can see this turning right back into a phonology problem already. :-)



Bruce

<bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:59:48 EST

From:  Bruce Southard <ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



Bethany wonders about "-lk" words other than "milk." What about "bulk",

"Belk" (a department store here in the Carolinas and perhaps elsewhere

in the south/ southeast), "Falk" (as in Peter or Julia), and maybe even

the "yolk/yoke" distinction that some of us have?



Regards,



Bruce



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-328-6041

919-328-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:59:12 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



> Ah, you got me, Natalie. Yes, I think I pronounce the /l/ in

'milk.' > Any others, I wonder?

>

> Bethany



Silk?



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 14:08:39 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



> Not even "milk"?



... and other words of that ilk?



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 17:24:16 -0500

From:  Ronald Butters <amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU>

Subject: Re: BITE ME



=20

On Sat, 28 Oct 1995, Seth Sklarey wrote:

=20

> Sorry to inform you that it dates from the late 50's (So. Fla.)

> and means "suck my richard <abbrev.>" also used as "eat me!"

> used as an insult from one heterosexual male to another

> usually to mean "you are wrong" or "I don't accept that" and

> "that's final," end of conversation, or "what you said is stupid."

=20

It would be helpful if you gave your source for this potentially useful

citing and gloss. (What is a "richard," by the way? Do you really mean

"abbrev."--or "euph."?) It seems to me that sucking and biting are two

such different activities that I'm not very convinced by the ppotential

connection. The thought that one might ask to have one's "richard

(euph.)" bitten is less likely than asking to have one's "donkey (euph.)"

bitten. Moreover, women, who have no "richard (euph.)," say "Bite me!"

=20

 > Evolved into "bite this"

> while grabbing crotch with one or both hands. Now quite common

> even on TV. See N.Y.P.D. Blues Detective Sipowitz (Dennis

> Franz) who uses it frequently, or Bud Bundy on Married With

> Children.

=20

Yes, I've seen this, too. But THIS seems to suggest that "bite my ass"

was the original phrase fromn which "bite me" was shortened, from which

the meanings 'bite my richard (euph.)' and then 'suck my penis' derived.

=20

> Your intuition fell a bit (or a bite) short.

=20

Well, my intuition about the age of "bite me" was probzbly wrong.

But my intuition about the meaning and etymology is at least as good as

yours! (Or

maybe we just speak different dialects, as the formalist linguists would

say.) And maybe my LOGIC is better.

=20

> Ron Butters wrote:> >

> >My intuition is that "bite me" is relatively new--within the last 20

> >years or so--and I guess it comes from "bite my ass," in insulting retor=

t

> >related to "kiss my ass" and which is surely much older.

> >

> >"Bite me"thus strikes me as a kind of politer form of "kiss my ass."=B4



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 17:26:39 -0600

From:  "Kathleen M. O'Neill" <koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIC.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



>This has been an amazing thread. I would have guessed that it is not

>even possible for speakers of English to pronounce the /l/ in words

>like 'folklore.' I am relatively certain that I do not pronounce the

>/l/ in any 'lk' words.

>

>Bethany Dumas

><dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

>



_Any_ "lk" words? Really? What about "milk" or "balk"?

How about "lm" words like "calm" and "film"? "Palm"?



I've been discussing this thread with friends, and I, too,

am amazed at the variety of pronunciations I have found.



;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I        ;

;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu               ;

;::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;

;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory        ;

;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311       ;

;Chicago, IL 60607-7025                         ;

;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX               ;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 18:43:30 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Thanks for getting me back in the thread. Yes, I have /l/s in many of the

other words. But I don't recall ever hearing anyone say an /l/ in

'folk' or 'folklore' and I was beginning to think you were all crazy.



Bethany

<dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:52:54 -0800

From:  Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Aside from one observation, no one seems to have acknowledged the fairly

obvious fact that the l-loss under discussion here is phonologically

conditioned. The rule deleting the l seems confined to the environment

after back vowels. Clearly it's most solid (i.e. most general) after low

back vowels (I would be amazed to the point of incredulity to hear of any

AE speaker who pronounced an /l/ in "walk") and weakens with higher, to

say nothing of front, vowels, so that I would be equally amazed to hear an

American say /mIk/ for 'milk'. Then there's mid back /o/, after which,

this discussion makes clear, there is considerable variation among, and

uncertainty within, speakers. As a child, I seem to have extended this

rule another notch: One day (I think I was in my teens), to my utter

astonishment, my parents pointed it out as an amusing idiosyncrasy that I

said, e.g., "big bad woof." At first I refused to believe that this

wasn't what everybody said, but eventually I made a conscious effort to

amend my pronunciation. I'm still aware of an effort every time I say

/wUlf/.



As for "folk," I'm sure I omit the /l/ in all combinations. The

following /l/ would help me restore in in 'folklore', but I find it actually

difficult to pronounce it in 'folkdance'.



Peter McGraw

Linfield College

McMinnville, OR



On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Thanks for getting me back in the thread. Yes, I have /l/s in many of the

> other words. But I don't recall ever hearing anyone say an /l/ in

> 'folk' or 'folklore' and I was beginning to think you were all crazy.

>

> Bethany

> <dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 21:23:33 -0700

From:  "Garland D. Bills" <gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Peter McGraw: Be amazed! I consistently say [mik], though with a back

off-glide in my casual speech. I bet Dennis Preston, Bethany Dumas, and

many others do too.



Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 1995 to 30 Oct 1995

************************************************





There are 18 messages totalling 505 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Sulking Over Silky Milk & Ot (2)

 2. ?Earliest Citation o

 3. Sulking Over Silky Milk etc

 4. folk/folklore (4)

 5. Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk (6)

 6. the last word on "bite me!," I hope

 7. Bounced Mail

 8. Bite Me, etc.

 9. Free Info - Work At Home



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:04:08 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Ot



Many years ago, about 30+, a friend of mine from West Va. told a story on

himself about a trip to New York City. After a long night of drinking and

having fun, he wound up in a diner and asked for some /mEk/, but no one

understood what he wanted. His astute friend from NC translated for him and

asked for /mElk/. He decided that NYC was not his town.



JCStalker



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:09:57 -0500

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation o



>

> I think the *Bite me!* business is just about played out, but I wanted to ask

> if there was any particular reason why the original request was for a printed

> citation--or the date when the expression was first in print. Few of the

> responses actually gave a print date and the earliest recollections are about

> 30 years before the 1977 date given in Lighter. Does the person who began this



> thread want to comment on the need for an in-print date?



It would be interesting to know the reason for a print citation.

>

I asked my 18yr old informant about the underlying meaning of "bite me." He

says tht it is equivalent to "fuck you." It is not "bite my ass" but rather

"bite my penis." It is not limited to male speakers, nor to male listeners.

He also considers it somewhat "out of fashion." These things do come and go,

as it were.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 00:09:12 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk etc



Garland D. Bills writes:



> Peter McGraw: Be amazed! I consistently say [mik], though with a back

> off-glide in my casual speech. I bet Dennis Preston, Bethany Dumas, and

> many others do too.



I'll bet you're right. I have only anecdotal evidence for this, but...back

when the whole notion of external evidence in phonology was a new and wondrous

thing, a classmate of mine in grad school had one of those day care disasters

that required him to bring his son in to campus and rely on a host of

volunteer babysitters. The son at the time was 5 or 6, right at that age of

invented spellings that Charles Read has written about extensively. For most

of the afternoon, we had this kid standing on a chair in front of a blackboard

writing words while we tried not to ooh and ah too audibly. When we asked him

to write "milk", he very confidently wrote MUK.



I don't have any actual acoustic data to supplement this, but Marianna Di

Paolo and I have tons of data for PILL and HILL, PEEL and HEEL. Even in these

words, with no following C to trigger "deletion" of /l/, a true phonetic [l]

nonetheless is quite rare. It's much more common, for our Utah speakers, and,

to a lesser extent, for our Northeastern speakers, to have the same strong

offglide that Garland reports for MILK.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 30 Oct 1995 23:37:57 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



At 3:43 PM 10/30/95, Natalie Maynor wrote:

>> like 'folklore.' I am relatively certain that I do not pronounce the

>> /l/ in any 'lk' words.

>

>Not even "milk"?



Just thought - except for the ilk cluster (ilk, silk, milk, etc.) and ulk

(sulk, hulk, etc.) I don't pronounce the l in any of the other Vlk words

either. There's a take-off on folk music that is written on and about

science fiction and sung at science fiction conventions that started as a

typo years ago. It's called filk music (verb to filk) - and the l is

definitely pronounced.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 08:56:28 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Peter McGraw wrote:



The rule deleting the l seems confined to the environment

>after back vowels. Clearly it's most solid (i.e. most general) after low

>back vowels (I would be amazed to the point of incredulity to hear of any

>AE speaker who pronounced an /l/ in "walk")



After trying to teach transcription to students from Sandersville, GA, for

15 years, I have given up arguing that there is no /l/ in words like "walk"

and "talk." The open-o in this area is so heavily diphthongized as

something like [ao] or even [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aow] that I have a hard time convincing these

students that they have no /l/ before the /k/.  They hear no /l/, however,

in words like "law." The off-glide in words like "half" and "calf" also

sounds like /l/ to them.



By the way, one of those announcers with a stay-pressed smile on ET last

night pronounced the name of Dekalb, Illinois, with an /l/. There is no

/l/ in "Dekalb County," a county in the metro Atlanta area.



And speaking of transcription woes, I finally abandoned categorical

statements about there being no /g/ at the ends of words like "sing."

After arguing with students from Sandersville for years about there being

no /g/ except for some reading hypercorrection (which is, of course, a real

/g/ after all), I married a woman from Milledgeville who--like her sister

and other female relatives--pronounces a /g/ in "sing" and other related

words.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 06:45:00 PST

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



> By the way, one of those announcers with a stay-pressed smile on ET last

> night pronounced the name of Dekalb, Illinois, with an /l/. There is no

> /l/ in "Dekalb County," a county in the metro Atlanta area.



I was raised 50 miles from Dekalb, IL. There is definitely an /l/ in the

pronunciation of that city.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:43:56 -0500

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: the last word on "bite me!," I hope



Richard Spears writes:



> I think the *Bite me!* business is just about played out, but I wanted to ask

> if there was any particular reason why the original request was for a printed

> citation--or the date when the expression was first in print. Few of the

> responses actually gave a print date and the earliest recollections are about

> 30 years before the 1977 date given in Lighter.



First of all, just to clarify things, as the original poster

made clear, the 1977 date in Lighter referred to _bite the big

one,_ not _bite me._



There is no separate entry for _bite me!_ in Lighter. The only

cite for the term is from 1992 and found under _bite it!_, which

has other variants, including "Why don't you take a bite of me?"

from 1949. An important related phrase is _bite my ass_ s.v. _ass,_

first cited in 1954. Note that several phrases under _bite it_

should go under _bite my ass_ instead, and that there should be

a cross-reference to the phrase at _ass._



Other related terms are _eat me!,_ from 1957-62 (and with _eat

(one's) ass out_ 'rebuke' from 1927, euphemistically); and

_blow me,_ in assorted variants.



Now, as for the actual phrase _bite me!,_ the earliest Lighter

has found is dated 1944-61-- i.e., it may have been written as

early as 1944, but was definitely written before 1961. The book

in question is called _Parachute Infantry_ by Donald Kenyon

Webster, published in 1994; it is a military memoir focusing on

World War II. Despite the 1994 pub date, the author died in

1961, making that an absolute final date for the usage. It refers,

of course, to WWII, so one can assume, if not conclusively prove,

its use at that time.



The cites:



1944-61 D.K. Webster _Parachute Infantry_ 12: "Press a lot of

pants in the Bulge?" "Bite me, buddy, bite me." _Ibid._ 137:

"Better stir it some more, Mick." "Bite me."



These citations came to light after the HDAS was published;

they will be included should we ever be able to update the

book.



Hope this helps.



Jesse Sheidlower, partly on behalf of J.E. Lighter

Random House Reference Dept.

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:45:40 -0600

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:43:45 -0500

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ACT.ORG

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>1982 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> --------------------- Message in error (39 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 08:43:50 CST

> From: Kekke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]act.org

> Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation o

>

> In my high school in northern Minnesota in the late 50s, a common variant of

> this expression (which I don't think has surfaced so far in this discussion)

> among a certain lowlife subgroup of my classmates was "BITE THE BAG."

> It was pretty commonly understand that "bag" referred to scrotum.

> _____________________________________________________________________________

> Subject: Re: ?Earliest Citation o

> From:  "Richard A. Spears" <72103.2357[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> at internet

> Date:  10/30/95 4:12 PM

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> I think the *Bite me!* business is just about played out, but I wanted to ask

> if there was any particular reason why the original request was for a printed

> citation--or the date when the expression was first in print. Few of the

> responses actually gave a print date and the earliest recollections are about

> 30 years before the 1977 date given in Lighter. Does the person who began this

> thread want to comment on the need for an in-print date?

>

> Incidentally, I first heard it in high school, 1954-1957, and never knew

> exactly what it meant, if indeed the guys who used it knew themselves.

>

> R. Spears

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 10:34:16 CST

From:  Kekke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACT.ORG

Subject: Bite Me, etc.



In my high school in northern Minnesota in the late 50s, a common variant of

this expression (which I don't think has surfaced so far in this discussion)

among a certain lowlife subgroup of my classmates was "BITE THE BAG."

It was pretty commonly understand that "bag" referred to scrotum.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 11:59:18 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



For me, it's definitely phonological in most environments: I always have an L

in -ilk and -ulk (with schwa), never in -a(u)lk (balk, caulk, talk) [although

if the vowel is front then indeed I do:   calc vs. caulk, talc vs. talk], and

as Peter says it's basically the same distinction as in -Vlm: L in film, not

in calm. But what makes the 'folk' case especially interesting is that with

that vowel it appears to be not (purely) a phonological matter. I mentioned

before that I have no L in 'folk' or any of its derivatives, while I do have

one in "Volkswagen" or (in case you think it's vol-kswagen) in "Volks". I

also have one in "Polk", as in the president or the street in San Francisco.

I'm now trying to figure out how I'd pronounce the name of someone I was

reading about in the paper where the name is spelled Folk (or Pholque, or

whatever). (FWIW, yolk is also L-less for me, so 'yolk' and 'yoke' are

homophones. But I suspect that 'tolk' [as a neologism for a follower of

Tolkien] and 'toke' wouldn't be.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:54:42 -0500

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



Larry Horn wrote:

>For me, it's definitely phonological in most environments: I always have an L

>in -ilk and -ulk (with schwa), never in -a(u)lk (balk, caulk, talk) [although

>if the vowel is front then indeed I do:   calc vs. caulk, talc vs. talk], .

>. .



The pairs of words that Larry lists here at the end deserve some comment.

My astute student (who started this thread) noted this morning that she has

heard "talcum" without the /l/, and even "talc"--both of which I have also

heard.



A notably weird variation occurs with "falcon." Around here, as far as I

know, the Falcons have an /l/; however, I had a friend in graduate school

from upstate New York (it may have been Albany, but I am fearful of the

earlier thread on what is actually upstate New York) who made fun of all us

Austin folks for saying [f[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lkxn] (where x = schwa and [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = ash). He said

[fckxn] (where c = open-o). An l-less "talcum" or "talc," however, still

has an ash, not an open-o.



Isn't there also variation in regard to ash and /a/ and open-o in words

like "balm" and "psalm" and "alms"?



In Monty Python's _The Life of Brian_, the magi bear gold, frankincense,

and myrrh to the wrong manger. When the mother of Brian hears the

explanation that myrrh is a balm [bcm], she goes postal and starts

screaming for the magi to get their "bomb" out of the manger.



He cain't hep hissef,





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:42:34 CST

From:  David <DROJAS1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



After the /I/ in 'milk', 'silk', and 'film', I do pronounce the /l/ before the

final consonant; however, in /a/ words such as 'balm', 'calm', 'balk', 'talk',

'walk', etc, I think I never pronounce the /l/ before the final consonant.

I would like to get some feedback on the distribution of this pronunciation

"rule" that I seem to express.   D M Rojas (drojas1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ua1vm.ua.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:46:22 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Peter McGraw wrote:



> Aside from one observation, no one seems to have acknowledged the fairly

> obvious fact that the l-loss under discussion here is phonologically

> conditioned. The rule deleting the l seems confined to the environment

> after back vowels. Clearly it's most solid (i.e. most general) after low

> back vowels (I would be amazed to the point of incredulity to hear of any

> AE speaker who pronounced an /l/ in "walk") and weakens with higher, to

> say nothing of front, vowels, so that I would be equally amazed to hear an

> American say /mIk/ for 'milk'

So would I, because all the people who I've ever heard who have no /l/ in

`milk' pronounce the word something like [mIuk] or [mIwk]. I don't know

what the situation is in the northern Valley, but in the central part,

[miuk] is not terribly common, but not so rare that it is surprising.

Fritz Juengling



 Then there's mid back /o/, after which,

> this discussion makes clear, there is considerable variation among, and

> uncertainty within, speakers. As a child, I seem to have extended this

> rule another notch: One day (I think I was in my teens), to my utter

> astonishment, my parents pointed it out as an amusing idiosyncrasy that I

> said, e.g., "big bad woof." At first I refused to believe that this

> wasn't what everybody said, but eventually I made a conscious effort to

> amend my pronunciation. I'm still aware of an effort every time I say

> /wUlf/.

>

> As for "folk," I'm sure I omit the /l/ in all combinations. The

> following /l/ would help me restore in in 'folklore', but I find it actually

> difficult to pronounce it in 'folkdance'.

>

> Peter McGraw

> Linfield College

> McMinnville, OR

>

> On Mon, 30 Oct 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:

>

> > Thanks for getting me back in the thread. Yes, I have /l/s in many of the

> > other words. But I don't recall ever hearing anyone say an /l/ in

> > 'folk' or 'folklore' and I was beginning to think you were all crazy.

> >

> > Bethany

> > <dumasB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>

> >

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 14:04:54 -0600

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Ot



On Tue, 31 Oct 1995, James C Stalker wrote:



> Many years ago, about 30+, a friend of mine from West Va. told a story on

> himself about a trip to New York City. After a long night of drinking and

> having fun, he wound up in a diner and asked for some /mEk/, but no one

> understood what he wanted. His astute friend from NC translated for him and

> asked for /mElk/. He decided that NYC was not his town.

>

> JCStalker

>

[mElk] is also heard here in the Twin Cities. Is it (still) common elsewhere?

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:42:27 CST

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



As a native speaker of (a variety of) South Midland, Dennis P, I want

     say that there's a lot of clutter in the distribution of ModE

realizations of the old "short o" spelled o. Like you, I use "aw" in

log, fog, dog, hog, frog. And, only partially like you, I use "aw" in

bog and togs but [a] in cog. 'Bog' and 'togs' are later-learned items

for me, but 'cog' has been in my phonological system, since childhood.

I also, like many but not all other South Midlanders, say 'or' like

'are' rather than like 'ore'/'oar'. It's interesting to look at the

pronunciations of frost, log, dog, water, daughter, law, forty, morning corn,

horse in PEAS. There are a few other "short o" words that I say with [a],

but can't think of them at the moment.

Another "unstable" set of words that's interesting in current sound changes

is the U/o sounds in word like 'poor'. Missouri students have a mid-central

unrounded retroflex vowel in words that historically had "short u" (e.g.,

'sure', 'Missouri') because they no longer have a high back lax vowel before

/r/. But if their mothers or teachers ever said [U] in 'poor', these

young Missourians did not centralize it along with the vowel in 'sure'. They

say [por], which we were taught back in dark mid-twentieth-century was wrong.

I bought my teachers' argument, especialy since the preceding generation

in the family said [pUr].

Back to the original point raised by Wayne Glowka's posting. I think we

acquire our pronunciations through a combination of (auditory) linguistic

environment and print. The rules Dennis alluded to are part of the package

too. And other rules too. I can say the -l- in 'yolk-like' much more

easily than I can in 'yolk', structuralists' deprecations of "ease of

articulation" notwithstanding.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 15:06:40 EST

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: folk/folklore



David Rojas writes:

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

After the /I/ in 'milk', 'silk', and 'film', I do pronounce the /l/ before the

final consonant; however, in /a/ words such as 'balm', 'calm', 'balk', 'talk',

'walk', etc, I think I never pronounce the /l/ before the final consonant.

I would like to get some feedback on the distribution of this pronunciation

"rule" that I seem to express.   D M Rojas (drojas1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ua1vm.ua.edu)

-------------------------------------------------

Yes, that's consistent with a number of us who report operating with* a

regular distinction between non-back vowels, after which the L is pronounced

([I] as in milk and film, [E] as in elm, [AE] as in talc (= talcum) and calc

(= calculus), and schwa as in hulk and sulk) and (some) back vowels, after

which it isn't (open o as in balk and talk, [a] as in balm and calm). For me,

as mentioned, [o] sometimes wipes out the following L (as in the 'folk' words

and 'yolk') and sometimes doesn't (Polk, Volks(wagen), Tolk ['Tolkien groupie']

and so on).



Larry



*at least in my case; I probably shouldn't generalize



------------------------------



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------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 31 Oct 1995 20:31:14 -0800

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Sulking Over Silky Milk & Other Words of That Ilk



At 8:56 AM 10/31/95, Wayne Glowka wrote:



>By the way, one of those announcers with a stay-pressed smile on ET last

>night pronounced the name of Dekalb, Illinois, with an /l/. There is no

>/l/ in "Dekalb County," a county in the metro Atlanta area.

>

Went to Peace Corps training at Northern Illinois Univ. in Dekalb, Ill. and

there was a definite l in Dekalb. Didn't know there wasn't one in Georgia.



Rima



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 1995 to 31 Oct 1995

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